The Updated Survival Guide for Bootstrapping SaaS

and we are live. Welcome back to and we are live. Welcome back to MicroCom on Air. I'm your host, Rob MicroCom on Air. I'm your host, Rob MicroCom on Air. I'm your host, Rob Walling. Every other Wednesday at 1 PM Walling. Every other Wednesday at 1 PM Walling. Every other Wednesday at 1 PM Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific, we live stream Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific, we live stream Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific, we live stream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics for about 30 minutes and we cover topics for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing related to building and growing related to building and growing ambitious SAS startups that bring us ambitious SAS startups that bring us ambitious SAS startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to maintain healthy relationships. maintain healthy relationships. maintain healthy relationships. We love live streaming because we can We love live streaming because we can We love live streaming because we can get live feedback, live questions from get live feedback, live questions from get live feedback, live questions from you, the audience. So, if you are in you, the audience. So, if you are in you, the audience. So, if you are in Microcom connect, head to the Microcom Microcom connect, head to the Microcom Microcom connect, head to the Microcom on air channel. If you're watching on air channel. If you're watching on air channel. If you're watching directly on YouTube, there is a chat directly on YouTube, there is a chat directly on YouTube, there is a chat function I think over on the right hand function I think over on the right hand function I think over on the right hand side and producer Xander will be side and producer Xander will be side and producer Xander will be monitoring those, placing them here in monitoring those, placing them here in monitoring those, placing them here in our doc. Today we're going to be talking our doc. Today we're going to be talking our doc. Today we're going to be talking not about the amazing MicroCom talk not about the amazing MicroCom talk not about the amazing MicroCom talk that's called the survival guide for that's called the survival guide for that's called the survival guide for bootstrap SAS. We're going to be talking bootstrap SAS. We're going to be talking bootstrap SAS. We're going to be talking about the updated survival guide for about the updated survival guide for about the updated survival guide for bootstrapping SAS because I am pleased bootstrapping SAS because I am pleased bootstrapping SAS because I am pleased to be joined today by Omar Zenholm. He's to be joined today by Omar Zenholm. He's to be joined today by Omar Zenholm. He's the founder of Webinar Ninja and he did the founder of Webinar Ninja and he did the founder of Webinar Ninja and he did this talk back at Microconf uh in 2019 this talk back at Microconf uh in 2019 this talk back at Microconf uh in 2019 about the story of building and growing about the story of building and growing about the story of building and growing Webinar Ninja. So if you don't know, Webinar Ninja. So if you don't know, Webinar Ninja. So if you don't know, Omar is the co-founder of Webinar Ninja.

Omar is the co-founder of Webinar Ninja. Omar is the co-founder of Webinar Ninja. As I just said, he's a super simple As I just said, he's a super simple As I just said, he's a super simple online teaching, coaching, and marketing online teaching, coaching, and marketing online teaching, coaching, and marketing platform. He started it in 2014, and platform. He started it in 2014, and platform. He started it in 2014, and since then over two million people have since then over two million people have since then over two million people have attended workshops and other events on attended workshops and other events on attended workshops and other events on Webinar Ninja. Webinar Ninja remains a Webinar Ninja. Webinar Ninja remains a Webinar Ninja. Webinar Ninja remains a self-funded software company with over self-funded software company with over self-funded software company with over 20,000 stakeholders which are their 20,000 stakeholders which are their 20,000 stakeholders which are their customer which are their customers. He's customer which are their customers. He's customer which are their customers. He's also the host of the popular small also the host of the popular small also the host of the popular small business podcast the $100 MBA show. He's business podcast the $100 MBA show. He's business podcast the $100 MBA show. He's been featured in Inc. Forbes Fast been featured in Inc. Forbes Fast been featured in Inc. Forbes Fast Company entrepreneur product hunt Company entrepreneur product hunt Company entrepreneur product hunt numerous other small business podcasts. numerous other small business podcasts. numerous other small business podcasts. So with that I'd like to welcome Omar to So with that I'd like to welcome Omar to So with that I'd like to welcome Omar to the show. the show. the show. Thanks for joining me sir. Thanks for joining me sir. Thanks for joining me sir. Hey Rob it's good to see you again. Hey Rob it's good to see you again. Hey Rob it's good to see you again. It's great to have you. So your talk It's great to have you. So your talk It's great to have you. So your talk with the full title microcom starter with the full title microcom starter with the full title microcom starter 2019 from 1 to 14,000 customers the 2019 from 1 to 14,000 customers the 2019 from 1 to 14,000 customers the survival guide to bootstrap SAS and we survival guide to bootstrap SAS and we survival guide to bootstrap SAS and we wanted to bring you here on uh oh yeah wanted to bring you here on uh oh yeah wanted to bring you here on uh oh yeah and if you want to watch the show if you and if you want to watch the show if you and if you want to watch the show if you want to watch that talk head to want to watch that talk head to want to watch that talk head to youtube.com/microconf youtube.com/microconf youtube.com/microconf or we're going to have the audio of that or we're going to have the audio of that or we're going to have the audio of that talk going in live in the micro podcast talk going in live in the micro podcast talk going in live in the micro podcast today or tomorrow so folks can check it today or tomorrow so folks can check it today or tomorrow so folks can check it out. actually re-watched the talk last out. actually re-watched the talk last out. actually re-watched the talk last week to prepare for this and I think we week to prepare for this and I think we week to prepare for this and I think we have some good stuff to uh to get into have some good stuff to uh to get into have some good stuff to uh to get into today.

today. today. The first thing I want to ask about is The first thing I want to ask about is The first thing I want to ask about is it's been almost three years since you it's been almost three years since you it's been almost three years since you talked. So knowing what you know now, talked. So knowing what you know now, talked. So knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently what would you have done differently what would you have done differently when you launched Webinar Ninja back in when you launched Webinar Ninja back in when you launched Webinar Ninja back in 2014? 2014? 2014? Wow. Um that's a good question. Um Wow. Um that's a good question. Um Wow. Um that's a good question. Um good one but a hard one. Yeah, I think good one but a hard one. Yeah, I think good one but a hard one. Yeah, I think um when I launched Webinar Ninja, I was um when I launched Webinar Ninja, I was um when I launched Webinar Ninja, I was just scratching my own itch really. I I just scratching my own itch really. I I just scratching my own itch really. I I I loved running webinars. I'm I'm a I loved running webinars. I'm I'm a I loved running webinars. I'm I'm a former educator taught taught in the former educator taught taught in the former educator taught taught in the classroom for 13 years before I became a classroom for 13 years before I became a classroom for 13 years before I became a full-time entrepreneur. So, I was really full-time entrepreneur. So, I was really full-time entrepreneur. So, I was really attracted to webinars and the platform attracted to webinars and the platform attracted to webinars and the platform of of of teaching really. And um I I was of of of teaching really. And um I I was of of of teaching really. And um I I was really not I kind of just saw it as like really not I kind of just saw it as like really not I kind of just saw it as like a project or basically a project or basically a project or basically almost like I was like building my own almost like I was like building my own almost like I was like building my own website kind of situation. It wasn't website kind of situation. It wasn't website kind of situation. It wasn't even I didn't think of it as a business. even I didn't think of it as a business. even I didn't think of it as a business. I didn't think of you know what are the I didn't think of you know what are the I didn't think of you know what are the next steps. I didn't really see the next steps. I didn't really see the next steps. I didn't really see the vision of what does this look like in 5 vision of what does this look like in 5 vision of what does this look like in 5 10 years. Um you know I I didn't do a 10 years. Um you know I I didn't do a 10 years. Um you know I I didn't do a SWAT analysis. you know, I just SWAT analysis. you know, I just SWAT analysis. you know, I just basically went out there and just basically went out there and just basically went out there and just created something I wanted to see in the created something I wanted to see in the created something I wanted to see in the world. Um, and bad habits die hard. So world. Um, and bad habits die hard. So world. Um, and bad habits die hard. So if you don't really have that um have if you don't really have that um have if you don't really have that um have that habit of hey what's what does this that habit of hey what's what does this that habit of hey what's what does this look like at the end of the year and look like at the end of the year and look like at the end of the year and three years and five years and 10 years three years and five years and 10 years three years and five years and 10 years you know what are some of resources I'm you know what are some of resources I'm you know what are some of resources I'm going to need to be able to go where I going to need to be able to go where I going to need to be able to go where I want you know how sustainable it is want you know how sustainable it is want you know how sustainable it is right now uh with with with the current

right now uh with with with the current right now uh with with with the current growth or the current traffic I'm growth or the current traffic I'm growth or the current traffic I'm getting to my site you know it was just getting to my site you know it was just getting to my site you know it was just kind of because I was just looking at kind of because I was just looking at kind of because I was just looking at the first step ahead of me like okay the first step ahead of me like okay the first step ahead of me like okay build this tool and put it in front of build this tool and put it in front of build this tool and put it in front of people see what happens Okay, when I see people see what happens Okay, when I see people see what happens Okay, when I see what happens, I'll react. And and then what happens, I'll react. And and then what happens, I'll react. And and then you just one day leads to one week to you just one day leads to one week to you just one day leads to one week to one month to one year. And then you one month to one year. And then you one month to one year. And then you realize, oh man, it's been four years. I realize, oh man, it's been four years. I realize, oh man, it's been four years. I need to I need to think about, you know, need to I need to think about, you know, need to I need to think about, you know, what does this what does this mean for what does this what does this mean for what does this what does this mean for my life? You know, um my co-founder my life? You know, um my co-founder my life? You know, um my co-founder Nicole and I, who's also my wife, we we Nicole and I, who's also my wife, we we Nicole and I, who's also my wife, we we talk all the time about how time flies talk all the time about how time flies talk all the time about how time flies by and we just realized, you know, this by and we just realized, you know, this by and we just realized, you know, this April it's going to be eight years of April it's going to be eight years of April it's going to be eight years of Webinar Ninja. So it's like, wow. um we Webinar Ninja. So it's like, wow. um we Webinar Ninja. So it's like, wow. um we have the gray hairs to show for it. But have the gray hairs to show for it. But have the gray hairs to show for it. But I would probably say that is just that I would probably say that is just that I would probably say that is just that forward thinking and thinking more than forward thinking and thinking more than forward thinking and thinking more than one one move ahead. You know, no one no one one move ahead. You know, no one no one one move ahead. You know, no one no one plays chess and just thinks the one plays chess and just thinks the one plays chess and just thinks the first move. You think, you know, at first move. You think, you know, at first move. You think, you know, at least five or six moves ahead before you least five or six moves ahead before you least five or six moves ahead before you uh move the pieces. uh move the pieces. uh move the pieces. And you know, on that note, how do you And you know, on that note, how do you And you know, on that note, how do you manage growth projections these days and manage growth projections these days and manage growth projections these days and goal setting?

goal setting? goal setting? Um, I think the best way to what I found Um, I think the best way to what I found Um, I think the best way to what I found has been helpful is just to to come up has been helpful is just to to come up has been helpful is just to to come up with a few different scenarios like if with a few different scenarios like if with a few different scenarios like if this happens, if this is my growth rate, this happens, if this is my growth rate, this happens, if this is my growth rate, then this is how this is, this is what then this is how this is, this is what then this is how this is, this is what I'm going to do with that growth. This I'm going to do with that growth. This I'm going to do with that growth. This is how I'll react to that. This is these is how I'll react to that. This is these is how I'll react to that. This is these are type of things I'm going to need. are type of things I'm going to need. are type of things I'm going to need. These are kind of the people I'm going These are kind of the people I'm going These are kind of the people I'm going to need to hire. Um, if that rate looks to need to hire. Um, if that rate looks to need to hire. Um, if that rate looks like this, if that rate looks like that. like this, if that rate looks like that. like this, if that rate looks like that. So it just gives me a a few options to So it just gives me a a few options to So it just gives me a a few options to look at so that um and I usually have look at so that um and I usually have look at so that um and I usually have like an extreme option like what if we like an extreme option like what if we like an extreme option like what if we grow you know 300%. You know um which grow you know 300%. You know um which grow you know 300%. You know um which happened in co so we're like okay um happened in co so we're like okay um happened in co so we're like okay um what does that look like? So that at what does that look like? So that at what does that look like? So that at least allows me to not freak out when least allows me to not freak out when least allows me to not freak out when something happens. I I kind of played something happens. I I kind of played something happens. I I kind of played that episode in my head already. So it that episode in my head already. So it that episode in my head already. So it gives me a chance to kind of um you know gives me a chance to kind of um you know gives me a chance to kind of um you know uh uh uh live the reality a little bit in my mind live the reality a little bit in my mind live the reality a little bit in my mind before it actually happens in real life. before it actually happens in real life. before it actually happens in real life. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. So Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. So Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. So I want to ask a question about COVID and I want to ask a question about COVID and I want to ask a question about COVID and and how it impacted Webinar Ninja given and how it impacted Webinar Ninja given and how it impacted Webinar Ninja given given the industry you're in. Did you given the industry you're in. Did you given the industry you're in. Did you see increased demand in you know as CO see increased demand in you know as CO see increased demand in you know as CO cranked up in 2020? Yeah, co was uh an cranked up in 2020? Yeah, co was uh an cranked up in 2020? Yeah, co was uh an interesting experience for us as a interesting experience for us as a interesting experience for us as a company because we saw incredible demand company because we saw incredible demand company because we saw incredible demand and I would say our our our customer and I would say our our our customer and I would say our our our customer demographic really changed big time.

demographic really changed big time. demographic really changed big time. Like who we serve now is totally Like who we serve now is totally Like who we serve now is totally different than who we served uh you know different than who we served uh you know different than who we served uh you know when I gave that talk in 2019 um because when I gave that talk in 2019 um because when I gave that talk in 2019 um because co kind of opened the floodgates. kind co kind of opened the floodgates. kind co kind of opened the floodgates. kind of just almost like fast forwarded to of just almost like fast forwarded to of just almost like fast forwarded to the future almost like you know um and the future almost like you know um and the future almost like you know um and you know we got customers emailing us you know we got customers emailing us you know we got customers emailing us telling us you know like listen I can't telling us you know like listen I can't telling us you know like listen I can't do my karate studio anymore they got to do my karate studio anymore they got to do my karate studio anymore they got to close the doors um how am I going to do close the doors um how am I going to do close the doors um how am I going to do my karate studio can your can your my karate studio can your can your my karate studio can your can your software help me can I do my karate software help me can I do my karate software help me can I do my karate classes with webinars you know and so I classes with webinars you know and so I classes with webinars you know and so I I I I went from a customer that's really I I I went from a customer that's really I I I went from a customer that's really well wellversed in technology in the well wellversed in technology in the well wellversed in technology in the space knows what a webinar is knows space knows what a webinar is knows space knows what a webinar is knows um how to utilize it, maybe kind of been um how to utilize it, maybe kind of been um how to utilize it, maybe kind of been on a few webinars to somebody who their on a few webinars to somebody who their on a few webinars to somebody who their business is a brick and mortar, you business is a brick and mortar, you business is a brick and mortar, you know, or their business is doesn't even know, or their business is doesn't even know, or their business is doesn't even have a website, you know, so it's like have a website, you know, so it's like have a website, you know, so it's like it's a little bit of a different it's a little bit of a different it's a little bit of a different demographic. uh along with the fact that demographic. uh along with the fact that demographic. uh along with the fact that um we started to shift a little bit uh um we started to shift a little bit uh um we started to shift a little bit uh because we were really competing in a because we were really competing in a because we were really competing in a space of using mo webinars uh as a space of using mo webinars uh as a space of using mo webinars uh as a marketing tool um which which is how a marketing tool um which which is how a marketing tool um which which is how a lot of people use webinars but um we lot of people use webinars but um we lot of people use webinars but um we started to really differentiate with started to really differentiate with started to really differentiate with with just focusing on being more of a with just focusing on being more of a with just focusing on being more of a teaching and learning tool. So people teaching and learning tool. So people teaching and learning tool. So people actually use our software to deliver actually use our software to deliver actually use our software to deliver their product or service or deliver uh their product or service or deliver uh their product or service or deliver uh some sort of workshop to bring in their some sort of workshop to bring in their some sort of workshop to bring in their audience and things like that. So um I audience and things like that. So um I audience and things like that. So um I think the biggest challenge for us as a think the biggest challenge for us as a think the biggest challenge for us as a company was realizing oh who we were company was realizing oh who we were company was realizing oh who we were going after in terms of marketing our

going after in terms of marketing our going after in terms of marketing our messaging our website that that's not messaging our website that that's not messaging our website that that's not our customer anymore. Um we need to like our customer anymore. Um we need to like our customer anymore. Um we need to like speak to some customers. So we would get speak to some customers. So we would get speak to some customers. So we would get on the calls and we would take notes and on the calls and we would take notes and on the calls and we would take notes and we would transcribe those videos and and we would transcribe those videos and and we would transcribe those videos and and we realized, oh, okay, you know, most of we realized, oh, okay, you know, most of we realized, oh, okay, you know, most of our customers are solarreneurs or people our customers are solarreneurs or people our customers are solarreneurs or people that are running their business by that are running their business by that are running their business by themselves. If they have a team, it's themselves. If they have a team, it's themselves. If they have a team, it's like two other people and it's like like two other people and it's like like two other people and it's like family members, right? And we realized, family members, right? And we realized, family members, right? And we realized, okay, um, we need to double down on the okay, um, we need to double down on the okay, um, we need to double down on the idea that our software is super simple idea that our software is super simple idea that our software is super simple to use. uh because um they don't have to use. uh because um they don't have to use. uh because um they don't have the the the resources to really get an the the the resources to really get an the the the resources to really get an expert or uh train somebody or um you expert or uh train somebody or um you expert or uh train somebody or um you know really uh work with an onboarding know really uh work with an onboarding know really uh work with an onboarding expert expert on our team and things expert expert on our team and things expert expert on our team and things like that. So uh it really shifted the like that. So uh it really shifted the like that. So uh it really shifted the way we we presented or uh I would say way we we presented or uh I would say way we we presented or uh I would say positioned our our our product as well positioned our our our product as well positioned our our our product as well as just uh the whole team from as just uh the whole team from as just uh the whole team from engineering to support understanding engineering to support understanding engineering to support understanding okay this is really our customer now um okay this is really our customer now um okay this is really our customer now um and uh of course there's variations but and uh of course there's variations but and uh of course there's variations but um it it definitely changed a lot in co um it it definitely changed a lot in co um it it definitely changed a lot in co yeah I can imagine that was a massive yeah I can imagine that was a massive yeah I can imagine that was a massive mindset shift and must have been pretty mindset shift and must have been pretty mindset shift and must have been pretty challenging because I imagine and you challenging because I imagine and you challenging because I imagine and you may have gotten there first I know often may have gotten there first I know often may have gotten there first I know often as the founder you're getting these as the founder you're getting these as the founder you're getting these streams of data and you're thinking streams of data and you're thinking streams of data and you're thinking there's a shift happening in this there's a shift happening in this there's a shift happening in this company. Then oftentimes your team company. Then oftentimes your team company. Then oftentimes your team doesn't know that and you have to then doesn't know that and you have to then doesn't know that and you have to then kind of convince them with with data. I kind of convince them with with data. I kind of convince them with with data. I mean what was that process hard? Did you mean what was that process hard? Did you mean what was that process hard? Did you just one day say hey this is what we're just one day say hey this is what we're just one day say hey this is what we're doing or were other people seeing the doing or were other people seeing the doing or were other people seeing the the tea leaves as well.

the tea leaves as well. the tea leaves as well. One of the things that really was One of the things that really was One of the things that really was helpful is that I do member webinars. I helpful is that I do member webinars. I helpful is that I do member webinars. I still run our member webinars till still run our member webinars till still run our member webinars till today, like where I once a month I'll today, like where I once a month I'll today, like where I once a month I'll get on the webinar and I uh answer get on the webinar and I uh answer get on the webinar and I uh answer questions. I talk about what's coming up questions. I talk about what's coming up questions. I talk about what's coming up next in our future releases, all that next in our future releases, all that next in our future releases, all that kind of stuff. Um, and I started to uh kind of stuff. Um, and I started to uh kind of stuff. Um, and I started to uh we have like a questions area and you we have like a questions area and you we have like a questions area and you can export that that those questions to can export that that those questions to can export that that those questions to CSV, right? And I would start to notice CSV, right? And I would start to notice CSV, right? And I would start to notice the questions that were coming in and the questions that were coming in and the questions that were coming in and they're very different than they used to they're very different than they used to they're very different than they used to be. like things like, you know, be. like things like, you know, be. like things like, you know, um do I need to have an email with my um do I need to have an email with my um do I need to have an email with my URL in it? You know, like do I need uh URL in it? You know, like do I need uh URL in it? You know, like do I need uh um to get an LLC or should I just um you um to get an LLC or should I just um you um to get an LLC or should I just um you know, be a freelancer? Things like that. know, be a freelancer? Things like that. know, be a freelancer? Things like that. questions that are very like, oh, these questions that are very like, oh, these questions that are very like, oh, these people are still, people are still, people are still, you know, at a stage that they're not you know, at a stage that they're not you know, at a stage that they're not not where our customers used to be, you not where our customers used to be, you not where our customers used to be, you know, like our customers used to be very know, like our customers used to be very know, like our customers used to be very savvy and very like, you know, uh I'm savvy and very like, you know, uh I'm savvy and very like, you know, uh I'm just running webinars so I can have just running webinars so I can have just running webinars so I can have another growth hack, you know.

another growth hack, you know. another growth hack, you know. So, So, So, uh I started to realize, okay, this is uh I started to realize, okay, this is uh I started to realize, okay, this is not a one-off like every month this is not a one-off like every month this is not a one-off like every month this is happening and most of the questions are happening and most of the questions are happening and most of the questions are very at a different stage. Uh a lot of very at a different stage. Uh a lot of very at a different stage. Uh a lot of it were were like just general like very it were were like just general like very it were were like just general like very basic technology questions uh like you basic technology questions uh like you basic technology questions uh like you know what's a webcam I can use that's know what's a webcam I can use that's know what's a webcam I can use that's that's not my laptop things like that. that's not my laptop things like that. that's not my laptop things like that. So then I I started to export these So then I I started to export these So then I I started to export these questions. I we would share them with questions. I we would share them with questions. I we would share them with our customer support team first because our customer support team first because our customer support team first because we're like hey you know these are the we're like hey you know these are the we're like hey you know these are the type of questions we're getting uh are type of questions we're getting uh are type of questions we're getting uh are you seeing the same in your customer you seeing the same in your customer you seeing the same in your customer support chats and your messages and you support chats and your messages and you support chats and your messages and you know I would speak to CJ who's our know I would speak to CJ who's our know I would speak to CJ who's our customer service manager and she would customer service manager and she would customer service manager and she would you know confer and and then I would go you know confer and and then I would go you know confer and and then I would go ahead and we would talk to the CTO our ahead and we would talk to the CTO our ahead and we would talk to the CTO our CTO and be like okay like we need to CTO and be like okay like we need to CTO and be like okay like we need to start thinking about uh shifting our our start thinking about uh shifting our our start thinking about uh shifting our our roadmap really to cater to this type of roadmap really to cater to this type of roadmap really to cater to this type of customer um because their needs and customer um because their needs and customer um because their needs and their wants and what they're asking for their wants and what they're asking for their wants and what they're asking for totally different. Um, and we started to totally different. Um, and we started to totally different. Um, and we started to realize that um, people want more of an realize that um, people want more of an realize that um, people want more of an all-inclusive all-in-one software that all-inclusive all-in-one software that all-inclusive all-in-one software that is it may not have all the features of is it may not have all the features of is it may not have all the features of our competitors or may not be able to, our competitors or may not be able to, our competitors or may not be able to, you know, host 10,000 people, but you know, host 10,000 people, but you know, host 10,000 people, but they're never going to get 10,000 they're never going to get 10,000 they're never going to get 10,000 people. Like that's not that's not their people. Like that's not that's not their people. Like that's not that's not their jam. They're really have smaller groups, jam. They're really have smaller groups, jam. They're really have smaller groups, smaller workshops, things like that. So, smaller workshops, things like that. So, smaller workshops, things like that. So, uh, it was just interesting just to uh, it was just interesting just to uh, it was just interesting just to share. It's so much easier just to share share. It's so much easier just to share share. It's so much easier just to share actual words from the customer than for actual words from the customer than for actual words from the customer than for me to say, "Trust me, this is what me to say, "Trust me, this is what me to say, "Trust me, this is what they're saying," you know. Um, and um,

they're saying," you know. Um, and um, they're saying," you know. Um, and um, we also in our team retreat, we try to we also in our team retreat, we try to we also in our team retreat, we try to do a bit of um, uh, get everybody on do a bit of um, uh, get everybody on do a bit of um, uh, get everybody on support tickets, even like, you know, support tickets, even like, you know, support tickets, even like, you know, the engineers and marketing. And they the engineers and marketing. And they the engineers and marketing. And they started to realize, okay, I mean, um, started to realize, okay, I mean, um, started to realize, okay, I mean, um, one of our, uh, front end engineers one of our, uh, front end engineers one of our, uh, front end engineers who's from Belarus, um, bless his heart, who's from Belarus, um, bless his heart, who's from Belarus, um, bless his heart, is, beautiful man. Um, but he just put is, beautiful man. Um, but he just put is, beautiful man. Um, but he just put it simply in his English and said, you it simply in his English and said, you it simply in his English and said, you know, wow, these guys, they just want to know, wow, these guys, they just want to know, wow, these guys, they just want to press a button and that's it. It's over. press a button and that's it. It's over. press a button and that's it. It's over. I was like, yeah, exactly. That's what I was like, yeah, exactly. That's what I was like, yeah, exactly. That's what they want. They want to press a button. they want. They want to press a button. they want. They want to press a button. Do it for me. Do it for me. Do it for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's how it was. Yeah. So, that's how it was. Yeah. So, that's how it was. Yeah. That's a big shift. Yeah. And and I That's a big shift. Yeah. And and I That's a big shift. Yeah. And and I imagine with that shift, there's this imagine with that shift, there's this imagine with that shift, there's this mental shift and there's this mental shift and there's this mental shift and there's this directional shift. Were there any directional shift. Were there any directional shift. Were there any changes that you made to your company changes that you made to your company changes that you made to your company structure as the pandemic hit and then structure as the pandemic hit and then structure as the pandemic hit and then as this whole kind of pivotish expand? I as this whole kind of pivotish expand? I as this whole kind of pivotish expand? I it's like a pivot but it's almost an it's like a pivot but it's almost an it's like a pivot but it's almost an expansion of of the customer base. But expansion of of the customer base. But expansion of of the customer base. But any any team structure or company any any team structure or company any any team structure or company structure changes? structure changes? structure changes? Yeah, we we basically were in a rush to Yeah, we we basically were in a rush to Yeah, we we basically were in a rush to hire. So because we realized we need to hire. So because we realized we need to hire. So because we realized we need to get more engineers, we needed to get get more engineers, we needed to get get more engineers, we needed to get more customer support agents. we needed more customer support agents. we needed more customer support agents. we needed to expand our our our marketing team to expand our our our marketing team to expand our our our marketing team because we were not really um doing any because we were not really um doing any because we were not really um doing any kind of real market research. You know, kind of real market research. You know, kind of real market research. You know, I I was like, "Oh, I know the customer."

I I was like, "Oh, I know the customer." I I was like, "Oh, I know the customer." You know, I I am the customer. Like, no, You know, I I am the customer. Like, no, You know, I I am the customer. Like, no, I'm so much in the weeds. I don't I'm I'm so much in the weeds. I don't I'm I'm so much in the weeds. I don't I'm the worst person to ask about what the worst person to ask about what the worst person to ask about what what's best for the for the customer what's best for the for the customer what's best for the for the customer right now. right now. right now. But um uh so that was a big challenge But um uh so that was a big challenge But um uh so that was a big challenge for me personally is that we had to make for me personally is that we had to make for me personally is that we had to make some really uh quick hires quick you some really uh quick hires quick you some really uh quick hires quick you know as fast as possible in a short know as fast as possible in a short know as fast as possible in a short period of time and and making these period of time and and making these period of time and and making these decisions can really uh be costly, decisions can really uh be costly, decisions can really uh be costly, right? Especially if you're making right? Especially if you're making right? Especially if you're making positions uh hiring positions in in in a positions uh hiring positions in in in a positions uh hiring positions in in in a in a managerial position, people that in a managerial position, people that in a managerial position, people that are making decisions on a daily basis are making decisions on a daily basis are making decisions on a daily basis that will affect the trajectory of your that will affect the trajectory of your that will affect the trajectory of your business. Um, and business. Um, and business. Um, and you know, I think I just uh in the you know, I think I just uh in the you know, I think I just uh in the process I I put a lot of trust in the process I I put a lot of trust in the process I I put a lot of trust in the people we hired based on referrals and people we hired based on referrals and people we hired based on referrals and references and and people like references and and people like references and and people like recommending them and things like that. recommending them and things like that. recommending them and things like that. Like, oh, this person is going to be Like, oh, this person is going to be Like, oh, this person is going to be great. We're have no problem. and great. We're have no problem. and great. We're have no problem. and realize, oh, okay, like, you know, these realize, oh, okay, like, you know, these realize, oh, okay, like, you know, these are some big mistakes that are happening are some big mistakes that are happening are some big mistakes that are happening here that, you know, cost us, you know, here that, you know, cost us, you know, here that, you know, cost us, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars hundreds of thousands of dollars hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes. You know, I'm just like, sometimes. You know, I'm just like, sometimes. You know, I'm just like, okay, wow, this is this is tough okay, wow, this is this is tough okay, wow, this is this is tough because, because, because, um, you want to meet the demand, but at um, you want to meet the demand, but at um, you want to meet the demand, but at the same time, um, the same time, um, the same time, um, you know, one of our reasons we were you know, one of our reasons we were you know, one of our reasons we were able to bootstrap our business is that able to bootstrap our business is that able to bootstrap our business is that we're very very, uh, frugal and very we're very very, uh, frugal and very we're very very, uh, frugal and very methodical and very resourceful. And you methodical and very resourceful. And you methodical and very resourceful. And you know, if you if you bring in new people know, if you if you bring in new people know, if you if you bring in new people and they don't know that and they come and they don't know that and they come and they don't know that and they come in with whatever they're used to in in with whatever they're used to in in with whatever they're used to in their other company, it's kind of like,

their other company, it's kind of like, their other company, it's kind of like, oh wait, I you know, you're we're gonna oh wait, I you know, you're we're gonna oh wait, I you know, you're we're gonna we're gonna have a problem here very we're gonna have a problem here very we're gonna have a problem here very soon because we're not singing from the soon because we're not singing from the soon because we're not singing from the same song sheet here. So that that was a same song sheet here. So that that was a same song sheet here. So that that was a big challenge for us big time. big challenge for us big time. big challenge for us big time. Yeah, I can imagine. And that comes back Yeah, I can imagine. And that comes back Yeah, I can imagine. And that comes back to like, you know, it's it's something I to like, you know, it's it's something I to like, you know, it's it's something I think we start our own companies to not think we start our own companies to not think we start our own companies to not have to deal with mission, vision, and have to deal with mission, vision, and have to deal with mission, vision, and values, right? Because they were such values, right? Because they were such values, right? Because they were such at the other companies I worked at the other companies I worked at the other companies I worked at. They would have them on a plaque. No at. They would have them on a plaque. No at. They would have them on a plaque. No one really cared or said them. But there one really cared or said them. But there one really cared or said them. But there comes a time in your when your team hits comes a time in your when your team hits comes a time in your when your team hits a certain size, especially as you're a certain size, especially as you're a certain size, especially as you're bringing in new hires, where it no bringing in new hires, where it no bringing in new hires, where it no longer you're no longer communicating longer you're no longer communicating longer you're no longer communicating your mission, vision, values through your mission, vision, values through your mission, vision, values through osmosis, and you have to do it osmosis, and you have to do it osmosis, and you have to do it deliberately, right? I mean, and is that deliberately, right? I mean, and is that deliberately, right? I mean, and is that whether it's mission, vision, values, or whether it's mission, vision, values, or whether it's mission, vision, values, or whether it's some document, you know, whether it's some document, you know, whether it's some document, you know, that you that somehow captures this is that you that somehow captures this is that you that somehow captures this is who we are. This is how we think about who we are. This is how we think about who we are. This is how we think about things. One of them is frugality for things. One of them is frugality for things. One of them is frugality for you. It sounds like like we're we're you. It sounds like like we're we're you. It sounds like like we're we're self-unded company and we you know, I self-unded company and we you know, I self-unded company and we you know, I imagine it's like we spend money when we imagine it's like we spend money when we imagine it's like we spend money when we need to, but we're also quite frugal. need to, but we're also quite frugal. need to, but we're also quite frugal. And if that wasn't written down And if that wasn't written down And if that wasn't written down anywhere, then someone comes in having anywhere, then someone comes in having anywhere, then someone comes in having been working for, you know, corporate uh been working for, you know, corporate uh been working for, you know, corporate uh headquarters for Target for decades, had headquarters for Target for decades, had headquarters for Target for decades, had all this budget, suddenly it's like you all this budget, suddenly it's like you all this budget, suddenly it's like you get a mismatch, right? How did you Yeah.

get a mismatch, right? How did you Yeah. get a mismatch, right? How did you Yeah. How did you write that? How did you write that? How did you write that? Well, one of the things I I learned from Well, one of the things I I learned from Well, one of the things I I learned from my teaching days as a teacher in the my teaching days as a teacher in the my teaching days as a teacher in the classroom is re really the the this classroom is re really the the this classroom is re really the the this whole mission v vision and values and whole mission v vision and values and whole mission v vision and values and just like you know it kind of glosses just like you know it kind of glosses just like you know it kind of glosses over most people in orientation. What we over most people in orientation. What we over most people in orientation. What we like to do instead is we kind of uh give like to do instead is we kind of uh give like to do instead is we kind of uh give examples and they're kind of like examples and they're kind of like examples and they're kind of like classroom rules. I know that sounds classroom rules. I know that sounds classroom rules. I know that sounds strange but they're kind of like strange but they're kind of like strange but they're kind of like classroom rules. And the reason why we classroom rules. And the reason why we classroom rules. And the reason why we do that is because um do that is because um do that is because um if you remember back in grade school, if you remember back in grade school, if you remember back in grade school, you know, really the rules are what you you know, really the rules are what you you know, really the rules are what you can get away with. Really, that's what can get away with. Really, that's what can get away with. Really, that's what it is. Like if it's if the teacher says it is. Like if it's if the teacher says it is. Like if it's if the teacher says there's no talking during the exam and there's no talking during the exam and there's no talking during the exam and uh a student starts talking during an uh a student starts talking during an uh a student starts talking during an exam, the real rule is that you can talk exam, the real rule is that you can talk exam, the real rule is that you can talk during the exam, right? And that's the during the exam, right? And that's the during the exam, right? And that's the rule. If the teachers, you know, you rule. If the teachers, you know, you rule. If the teachers, you know, you know, puts them aside and said, "Hey, know, puts them aside and said, "Hey, know, puts them aside and said, "Hey, you're gonna sit here now." Now we know, you're gonna sit here now." Now we know, you're gonna sit here now." Now we know, okay, that rule is real, right? So we okay, that rule is real, right? So we okay, that rule is real, right? So we realize that if we're going to have some realize that if we're going to have some realize that if we're going to have some sort of uh uh set of things that we all sort of uh uh set of things that we all sort of uh uh set of things that we all believe in, some sort of values, uh we believe in, some sort of values, uh we believe in, some sort of values, uh we have to uphold them in some way. And have to uphold them in some way. And have to uphold them in some way. And they can't be too many, right? They have they can't be too many, right? They have they can't be too many, right? They have to be pretty core values, you know, to be pretty core values, you know, to be pretty core values, you know, three or four, five max. Um but most three or four, five max. Um but most three or four, five max. Um but most importantly I can't police them or I importantly I can't police them or I importantly I can't police them or I can't enforce these values or I can't can't enforce these values or I can't can't enforce these values or I can't uphold these values and make sure that uphold these values and make sure that uphold these values and make sure that when people don't do these things that when people don't do these things that when people don't do these things that we have a chat by myself. I had to make we have a chat by myself. I had to make we have a chat by myself. I had to make sure that you know our management level

sure that you know our management level sure that you know our management level you know all understood that hey this is you know all understood that hey this is you know all understood that hey this is what we do when when somebody doesn't do what we do when when somebody doesn't do what we do when when somebody doesn't do this or somebody doesn't uh understand this or somebody doesn't uh understand this or somebody doesn't uh understand this or needs to be taught or needs to this or needs to be taught or needs to this or needs to be taught or needs to be coached through this. Um and then be coached through this. Um and then be coached through this. Um and then what happens if they continue to do this what happens if they continue to do this what happens if they continue to do this all that kind of stuff because uh all that kind of stuff because uh all that kind of stuff because uh otherwise um what happens is that you otherwise um what happens is that you otherwise um what happens is that you know you do an old hands you do a know you do an old hands you do a know you do an old hands you do a retreat that's when you revisit your retreat that's when you revisit your retreat that's when you revisit your values and then everybody kind of you values and then everybody kind of you values and then everybody kind of you know snickers at it because it's like oh know snickers at it because it's like oh know snickers at it because it's like oh not really you know um so that's what I not really you know um so that's what I not really you know um so that's what I was trying to prevent. Um and um one of was trying to prevent. Um and um one of was trying to prevent. Um and um one of the things that what happened in that the things that what happened in that the things that what happened in that process when we were growing rapidly process when we were growing rapidly process when we were growing rapidly during co is that we were hiring quickly during co is that we were hiring quickly during co is that we were hiring quickly but we also had to fire a bunch of but we also had to fire a bunch of but we also had to fire a bunch of people that have been with us for years. people that have been with us for years. people that have been with us for years. Uh and the reason why is because one of Uh and the reason why is because one of Uh and the reason why is because one of our growth value one of our re uh our our growth value one of our re uh our our growth value one of our re uh our values is growth is is a is a growth values is growth is is a is a growth values is growth is is a is a growth mindset not only in terms of the company mindset not only in terms of the company mindset not only in terms of the company but in terms of all of us as individuals but in terms of all of us as individuals but in terms of all of us as individuals because what happens is that the the because what happens is that the the because what happens is that the the company starts to grow. The company company starts to grow. The company company starts to grow. The company starts to change. How we work changes. starts to change. How we work changes. starts to change. How we work changes. We we level up our procedures and how we We we level up our procedures and how we We we level up our procedures and how we how we do things and how we run our how we do things and how we run our how we do things and how we run our meetings. Uh and people don't sometimes meetings. Uh and people don't sometimes meetings. Uh and people don't sometimes connect with that. Sometimes they they connect with that. Sometimes they they connect with that. Sometimes they they resist that. They're like, "I like the resist that. They're like, "I like the resist that. They're like, "I like the way things used to be." And and way things used to be." And and way things used to be." And and sometimes when people don't come along sometimes when people don't come along sometimes when people don't come along with the ride, don't grow with us. We with the ride, don't grow with us. We with the ride, don't grow with us. We had to kind of have a chat with them and had to kind of have a chat with them and had to kind of have a chat with them and say, "This is not working out." You say, "This is not working out." You say, "This is not working out." You know, like, "I need you to change. I know, like, "I need you to change. I know, like, "I need you to change. I need you to grow with me." It's painful need you to grow with me." It's painful need you to grow with me." It's painful for me, too, by the way, as a founder.

for me, too, by the way, as a founder. for me, too, by the way, as a founder. Like, it's hard for me to say, "I'm not Like, it's hard for me to say, "I'm not Like, it's hard for me to say, "I'm not good enough. I need to change. I need to good enough. I need to change. I need to good enough. I need to change. I need to get better if I want to get to where I'm get better if I want to get to where I'm get better if I want to get to where I'm going." You know, like I'm not the CEO going." You know, like I'm not the CEO going." You know, like I'm not the CEO of the company I see in five years. I of the company I see in five years. I of the company I see in five years. I need to get there. So um it was need to get there. So um it was need to get there. So um it was heartbreaking and also part of that you heartbreaking and also part of that you heartbreaking and also part of that you know change and growth and new people know change and growth and new people know change and growth and new people coming in and people leaving is like coming in and people leaving is like coming in and people leaving is like talking to the team on a daily basis you talking to the team on a daily basis you talking to the team on a daily basis you know PMs and in Slack and things like know PMs and in Slack and things like know PMs and in Slack and things like that saying hey how you doing because it that saying hey how you doing because it that saying hey how you doing because it does shake morale a little bit when does shake morale a little bit when does shake morale a little bit when somebody who's been in the company for somebody who's been in the company for somebody who's been in the company for five years six years uh leaves and five years six years uh leaves and five years six years uh leaves and they're like oh am I next is is is this they're like oh am I next is is is this they're like oh am I next is is is this how it's going to be because you know how it's going to be because you know how it's going to be because you know they're growing. Um, so it's really uh a they're growing. Um, so it's really uh a they're growing. Um, so it's really uh a softscale people person challenge that I softscale people person challenge that I softscale people person challenge that I didn't expect. didn't expect. didn't expect. Yeah, that really tough. A reminder to Yeah, that really tough. A reminder to Yeah, that really tough. A reminder to folks watching, we have uh listener folks watching, we have uh listener folks watching, we have uh listener questions coming in and you can post questions coming in and you can post questions coming in and you can post them in Microconf on air or in the them in Microconf on air or in the them in Microconf on air or in the YouTube comments. First question is from YouTube comments. First question is from YouTube comments. First question is from Zach on YouTube and he says, "If you Zach on YouTube and he says, "If you Zach on YouTube and he says, "If you were to start a business in 2022, would were to start a business in 2022, would were to start a business in 2022, would you still bootstrap it or would you be you still bootstrap it or would you be you still bootstrap it or would you be open to bootstrapper friendly capital open to bootstrapper friendly capital open to bootstrapper friendly capital like tiny seed? I did not plant this like tiny seed? I did not plant this like tiny seed? I did not plant this this question." Um, and and what's your this question." Um, and and what's your this question." Um, and and what's your thought process behind it?

thought process behind it? thought process behind it? Full disclosure, um, my I my thoughts, Full disclosure, um, my I my thoughts, Full disclosure, um, my I my thoughts, my opinions on bootstrapping has changed my opinions on bootstrapping has changed my opinions on bootstrapping has changed drastically over the course of the drastically over the course of the drastically over the course of the almost eight years now with Webinar almost eight years now with Webinar almost eight years now with Webinar Ninja. I used to be super gung-ho. Ninja. I used to be super gung-ho. Ninja. I used to be super gung-ho. Bootstrap is the way. Have full control. Bootstrap is the way. Have full control. Bootstrap is the way. Have full control. This is your business. This is why you This is your business. This is why you This is your business. This is why you got into it in the first place. Um that got into it in the first place. Um that got into it in the first place. Um that changed a bit as you realize changed a bit as you realize changed a bit as you realize that is not the answer for every stage that is not the answer for every stage that is not the answer for every stage of your business. That is not the answer of your business. That is not the answer of your business. That is not the answer for every business. Every business needs for every business. Every business needs for every business. Every business needs something different. Um and uh I'm not something different. Um and uh I'm not something different. Um and uh I'm not too proud to say uh I I do recommend too proud to say uh I I do recommend too proud to say uh I I do recommend people to look at um options like tiny people to look at um options like tiny people to look at um options like tiny seed. I remember when I learned about seed. I remember when I learned about seed. I remember when I learned about tiny seed in micro comp I was like this tiny seed in micro comp I was like this tiny seed in micro comp I was like this is a brilliant idea like you know is a brilliant idea like you know is a brilliant idea like you know because one you don't realize how much because one you don't realize how much because one you don't realize how much strain bootstrapping a business has on strain bootstrapping a business has on strain bootstrapping a business has on your personal life on your personal your personal life on your personal your personal life on your personal relationships on your your your your relationships on your your your your relationships on your your your your partnership or your marriage with with partnership or your marriage with with partnership or your marriage with with whoever you're with. Um, you know, my whoever you're with. Um, you know, my whoever you're with. Um, you know, my business partner is my wife. So, there's business partner is my wife. So, there's business partner is my wife. So, there's there's double pressure that we have on there's double pressure that we have on there's double pressure that we have on us. There's so much of our personal us. There's so much of our personal us. There's so much of our personal capital that got invested into this capital that got invested into this capital that got invested into this company. Um, and it's almost like you're company. Um, and it's almost like you're company. Um, and it's almost like you're you're you're like a gambling junkie.

you're you're like a gambling junkie. you're you're like a gambling junkie. You're like, I got to go all in now You're like, I got to go all in now You're like, I got to go all in now because, you know, everything is on the because, you know, everything is on the because, you know, everything is on the line and blah blah blah. Um, but I do line and blah blah blah. Um, but I do line and blah blah blah. Um, but I do think this is actually a pretty good think this is actually a pretty good think this is actually a pretty good option because at least it frees you up option because at least it frees you up option because at least it frees you up to say, "Hey, I have some capital to get to say, "Hey, I have some capital to get to say, "Hey, I have some capital to get started. to have some even if you're not started. to have some even if you're not started. to have some even if you're not just getting started, even if you are just getting started, even if you are just getting started, even if you are ramen profitable, even if you are have ramen profitable, even if you are have ramen profitable, even if you are have product market fit and you want to get product market fit and you want to get product market fit and you want to get some a boost in cash so you can make some a boost in cash so you can make some a boost in cash so you can make some hires so you can grow your team, some hires so you can grow your team, some hires so you can grow your team, invest in marketing, this is a great invest in marketing, this is a great invest in marketing, this is a great option because one, it's not a bad thing option because one, it's not a bad thing option because one, it's not a bad thing that you have a partner. It's not a bad that you have a partner. It's not a bad that you have a partner. It's not a bad thing that you have somebody who's who's thing that you have somebody who's who's thing that you have somebody who's who's going to take a slice in your business going to take a slice in your business going to take a slice in your business in exchange for you to go to the next in exchange for you to go to the next in exchange for you to go to the next level. Um, it's kind of like that whole level. Um, it's kind of like that whole level. Um, it's kind of like that whole thing. Do you want, you know, um, do you thing. Do you want, you know, um, do you thing. Do you want, you know, um, do you want a bite out of a do you want a slice want a bite out of a do you want a slice want a bite out of a do you want a slice out of a a watermelon or a grape? You out of a a watermelon or a grape? You out of a a watermelon or a grape? You know, like your business has the know, like your business has the know, like your business has the potential to grow much bigger, not only potential to grow much bigger, not only potential to grow much bigger, not only in terms of the investment, but the the in terms of the investment, but the the in terms of the investment, but the the knowhow and the help and the guidance knowhow and the help and the guidance knowhow and the help and the guidance you're going to get from from from an you're going to get from from from an you're going to get from from from an investor or from a a company or an investor or from a a company or an investor or from a a company or an organization like Tiny Seed. So, I'm I'm organization like Tiny Seed. So, I'm I'm organization like Tiny Seed. So, I'm I'm totally I've shifted a bit, a lot of bit totally I've shifted a bit, a lot of bit totally I've shifted a bit, a lot of bit uh over the years because um uh over the years because um uh over the years because um it's really hard to be creative and to it's really hard to be creative and to it's really hard to be creative and to think clearly when you have the ceiling think clearly when you have the ceiling think clearly when you have the ceiling falling down on you and that's how falling down on you and that's how falling down on you and that's how bootstrap businesses are for the most bootstrap businesses are for the most bootstrap businesses are for the most part. you're constantly like taping up part. you're constantly like taping up part. you're constantly like taping up this and doing that and making sure this and doing that and making sure this and doing that and making sure you're trying to survive, you know, and you're trying to survive, you know, and you're trying to survive, you know, and and at the same time meeting demand and and at the same time meeting demand and and at the same time meeting demand and growing and it's hard to be creative in

growing and it's hard to be creative in growing and it's hard to be creative in that environment. It's hard to really that environment. It's hard to really that environment. It's hard to really come up with innovative uh uh solutions. come up with innovative uh uh solutions. come up with innovative uh uh solutions. Uh so having the the at least the Uh so having the the at least the Uh so having the the at least the financial piece taken care of and help financial piece taken care of and help financial piece taken care of and help helping you out and giving you some helping you out and giving you some helping you out and giving you some oxygen is is something I I I would do it oxygen is is something I I I would do it oxygen is is something I I I would do it if I did it all over again. I would do if I did it all over again. I would do if I did it all over again. I would do it. it. it. It's interest. It's interesting to hear It's interest. It's interesting to hear It's interest. It's interesting to hear you say that because I didn't know, you you say that because I didn't know, you you say that because I didn't know, you know, what your answer is. And your know, what your answer is. And your know, what your answer is. And your answer could also have been, hey, I'm a answer could also have been, hey, I'm a answer could also have been, hey, I'm a bootstrapper and that's what I do. And bootstrapper and that's what I do. And bootstrapper and that's what I do. And that's okay, you know, but I started that's okay, you know, but I started that's okay, you know, but I started Tiny Seed because I want I wished I had Tiny Seed because I want I wished I had Tiny Seed because I want I wished I had been able to do this 10 years ago, you been able to do this 10 years ago, you been able to do this 10 years ago, you know, when I was grinding it out with know, when I was grinding it out with know, when I was grinding it out with Hitail and grinding it out with Drip. Hitail and grinding it out with Drip. Hitail and grinding it out with Drip. And to the same thing, you know, to your And to the same thing, you know, to your And to the same thing, you know, to your point, it's it's really hard to be point, it's it's really hard to be point, it's it's really hard to be thinking about quality of life and thinking about quality of life and thinking about quality of life and growing the business when I'm like, can growing the business when I'm like, can growing the business when I'm like, can I make the bills this month, right? or I make the bills this month, right? or I make the bills this month, right? or or I'm working 40-hour day job, 20 hour or I'm working 40-hour day job, 20 hour or I'm working 40-hour day job, 20 hour a week nights and weekends, which is a week nights and weekends, which is a week nights and weekends, which is what I did for years. And I would really what I did for years. And I would really what I did for years. And I would really wish that there had been some other wish that there had been some other wish that there had been some other option. It doesn't have to be tiny option. It doesn't have to be tiny option. It doesn't have to be tiny seeds. You can raise a little bit of seeds. You can raise a little bit of seeds. You can raise a little bit of money. Bootstrapping, non mostly money. Bootstrapping, non mostly money. Bootstrapping, non mostly bootstrapping. It's it's just a tool. bootstrapping. It's it's just a tool. bootstrapping. It's it's just a tool. Funding is a tool and know what you're Funding is a tool and know what you're Funding is a tool and know what you're getting into with it and uh you know, getting into with it and uh you know, getting into with it and uh you know, use it as a tool to grow your business.

use it as a tool to grow your business. use it as a tool to grow your business. More listener questions pouring in. Um More listener questions pouring in. Um More listener questions pouring in. Um Mujad on YouTube says, "I'm also just Mujad on YouTube says, "I'm also just Mujad on YouTube says, "I'm also just starting on a bootstrapped company with starting on a bootstrapped company with starting on a bootstrapped company with my spouse. anything you would tell my spouse. anything you would tell my spouse. anything you would tell yourself back then? Oh, that's a I like yourself back then? Oh, that's a I like yourself back then? Oh, that's a I like that question. that question. that question. Yeah. Um, definitely uh have a Yeah. Um, definitely uh have a Yeah. Um, definitely uh have a discussion about responsibilities and discussion about responsibilities and discussion about responsibilities and roles. And one of the things Nicole and roles. And one of the things Nicole and roles. And one of the things Nicole and I always do is we like to start the I always do is we like to start the I always do is we like to start the conversation that like it's really hard conversation that like it's really hard conversation that like it's really hard to separate your personal life from from to separate your personal life from from to separate your personal life from from business because you're you're you're business because you're you're you're business because you're you're you're you're not talking to a different you're not talking to a different you're not talking to a different person. You're talking to your wife, person. You're talking to your wife, person. You're talking to your wife, right? You're talking to your partner in right? You're talking to your partner in right? You're talking to your partner in life, whoever it is. So um we we always life, whoever it is. So um we we always life, whoever it is. So um we we always understand that hey you have a understand that hey you have a understand that hey you have a responsibility I have a responsibility responsibility I have a responsibility responsibility I have a responsibility let's work together uh to get get to let's work together uh to get get to let's work together uh to get get to where we want to go in the business but where we want to go in the business but where we want to go in the business but at the same time you have to recognize at the same time you have to recognize at the same time you have to recognize that uh your relationship is really that uh your relationship is really that uh your relationship is really the most important thing here like you the most important thing here like you the most important thing here like you can start another business you can get can start another business you can get can start another business you can get another job you can invest in another another job you can invest in another another job you can invest in another opportunity opportunity opportunity you know it's really hard to find you know it's really hard to find you know it's really hard to find another partner in life that's going to another partner in life that's going to another partner in life that's going to support you and be part of you uh a part support you and be part of you uh a part support you and be part of you uh a part of your life and part of your journey.

of your life and part of your journey. of your life and part of your journey. So just keep that in mind. I I would say So just keep that in mind. I I would say So just keep that in mind. I I would say um is and also it's one of the um is and also it's one of the um is and also it's one of the advantages I think is I think it's like advantages I think is I think it's like advantages I think is I think it's like some sort of divine intervention. I some sort of divine intervention. I some sort of divine intervention. I don't know what you want to call it, but don't know what you want to call it, but don't know what you want to call it, but it's almost never that we're both down it's almost never that we're both down it's almost never that we're both down at the same time. Like I'll have a bad at the same time. Like I'll have a bad at the same time. Like I'll have a bad day or I'll be like, "Oh, this why did day or I'll be like, "Oh, this why did day or I'll be like, "Oh, this why did we start this thing in the first place? we start this thing in the first place? we start this thing in the first place? What's going on here? I'm dealing with What's going on here? I'm dealing with What's going on here? I'm dealing with all these problems and these issues and all these problems and these issues and all these problems and these issues and I gotta put out these fires. And then I gotta put out these fires. And then I gotta put out these fires. And then she'll be up and she'll be like, "We she'll be up and she'll be like, "We she'll be up and she'll be like, "We could do this. Don't worry." You know, could do this. Don't worry." You know, could do this. Don't worry." You know, we've handled this before. D and then we've handled this before. D and then we've handled this before. D and then vice versa some other time. And that's vice versa some other time. And that's vice versa some other time. And that's really a blessing. That's really really a blessing. That's really really a blessing. That's really something that like I don't take for something that like I don't take for something that like I don't take for granted because it is hard to run a granted because it is hard to run a granted because it is hard to run a business by yourself and to have business by yourself and to have business by yourself and to have somebody who cares about you to have somebody who cares about you to have somebody who cares about you to have somebody that has your best interests in somebody that has your best interests in somebody that has your best interests in mind that you don't have to question mind that you don't have to question mind that you don't have to question their motives all the time about why their motives all the time about why their motives all the time about why they're saying this and all that kind of they're saying this and all that kind of they're saying this and all that kind of stuff is is really good. is really good stuff is is really good. is really good stuff is is really good. is really good and really cool. and really cool. and really cool. That's great advice. Good to hear. I'm That's great advice. Good to hear. I'm That's great advice. Good to hear. I'm curious, you know, you mentioned that curious, you know, you mentioned that curious, you know, you mentioned that your team had made a lot of changes. Uh your team had made a lot of changes. Uh your team had made a lot of changes. Uh there were a lot of changes that went on there were a lot of changes that went on there were a lot of changes that went on over the past few years. So, let's say over the past few years. So, let's say over the past few years. So, let's say between when you did this this talk that between when you did this this talk that between when you did this this talk that we're talking about in 2019 versus we're talking about in 2019 versus we're talking about in 2019 versus today, you know, what is what is your today, you know, what is what is your today, you know, what is what is your team structure like today? I guess team structure like today? I guess team structure like today? I guess describe, you know, size and and how how describe, you know, size and and how how describe, you know, size and and how how you structure it.

you structure it. you structure it. Yeah. I'm embarrassed to say that Yeah. I'm embarrassed to say that Yeah. I'm embarrassed to say that probably around the time of the talk, probably around the time of the talk, probably around the time of the talk, um, I would say the majority of the team um, I would say the majority of the team um, I would say the majority of the team would report directly to me or Nicole. would report directly to me or Nicole. would report directly to me or Nicole. Um, and that was really hard. That was Um, and that was really hard. That was Um, and that was really hard. That was really hard. Uh, the funny thing is really hard. Uh, the funny thing is really hard. Uh, the funny thing is after micro, we were going to Europe for after micro, we were going to Europe for after micro, we were going to Europe for a short holiday. It was like, um, not a short holiday. It was like, um, not a short holiday. It was like, um, not even a week. May maybe a week, I don't even a week. May maybe a week, I don't even a week. May maybe a week, I don't know. But like I couldn't shut off. I know. But like I couldn't shut off. I know. But like I couldn't shut off. I could not actually have a full day could not actually have a full day could not actually have a full day without looking at my phone or putting without looking at my phone or putting without looking at my phone or putting out fires or answering questions or out fires or answering questions or out fires or answering questions or whatever it is. Um, and at that moment I whatever it is. Um, and at that moment I whatever it is. Um, and at that moment I was like, "This is this is ridiculous." was like, "This is this is ridiculous." was like, "This is this is ridiculous." Like, I haven't had a vacation since I Like, I haven't had a vacation since I Like, I haven't had a vacation since I left teaching, which was 2012. left teaching, which was 2012. left teaching, which was 2012. Um, and you know, I Um, and you know, I Um, and you know, I I'm I'm all for hard work. I'm all for I'm I'm all for hard work. I'm all for I'm I'm all for hard work. I'm all for giving it all you can. Um, but uh is it giving it all you can. Um, but uh is it giving it all you can. Um, but uh is it Jason Freed that says like I'm Jason Freed that says like I'm Jason Freed that says like I'm interested in having a stay up and not a interested in having a stay up and not a interested in having a stay up and not a startup like just have I in order for me startup like just have I in order for me startup like just have I in order for me to continue going for the rest of my to continue going for the rest of my to continue going for the rest of my life, I need to pace myself. You know, I life, I need to pace myself. You know, I life, I need to pace myself. You know, I ran long distance track when I was in ran long distance track when I was in ran long distance track when I was in high school. And that's something that high school. And that's something that high school. And that's something that you learn very quickly is like, you you learn very quickly is like, you you learn very quickly is like, you know, you need to understand how much know, you need to understand how much know, you need to understand how much left you have to go still. And for most left you have to go still. And for most left you have to go still. And for most of us, you have more to go than you of us, you have more to go than you of us, you have more to go than you already had already had already had have endured so far. So that that was have endured so far. So that that was have endured so far. So that that was that was a big learning. So I we started that was a big learning. So I we started that was a big learning. So I we started to realize okay how can we first of all to realize okay how can we first of all to realize okay how can we first of all get the right people in place so that get the right people in place so that get the right people in place so that the the most uh labor intensive question

the the most uh labor intensive question the the most uh labor intensive question intensive type of things are taken care intensive type of things are taken care intensive type of things are taken care of and of and of and most of us think of like these big hires most of us think of like these big hires most of us think of like these big hires I'm need a CTO I'm a CEO I need a you I'm need a CTO I'm a CEO I need a you I'm need a CTO I'm a CEO I need a you know this VP of this and VP of that and know this VP of this and VP of that and know this VP of this and VP of that and actually the first thing is that we just actually the first thing is that we just actually the first thing is that we just got a really good EA we got a really got a really good EA we got a really got a really good EA we got a really good person who basically became the good person who basically became the good person who basically became the head of HR, you know, she she took care head of HR, you know, she she took care head of HR, you know, she she took care of all the stuff in terms of like leave of all the stuff in terms of like leave of all the stuff in terms of like leave and scheduling and emails and send me and scheduling and emails and send me and scheduling and emails and send me your bio and all all the things that your bio and all all the things that your bio and all all the things that these little tasks that take up all your these little tasks that take up all your these little tasks that take up all your time, what Dan Martell calls $10 tasks, time, what Dan Martell calls $10 tasks, time, what Dan Martell calls $10 tasks, right? All these little $10 tasks. And right? All these little $10 tasks. And right? All these little $10 tasks. And that kind of just gave us some breathing that kind of just gave us some breathing that kind of just gave us some breathing room be like you you can't go directly room be like you you can't go directly room be like you you can't go directly to me for everything. you have to go to me for everything. you have to go to me for everything. you have to go through our executive assistant who will through our executive assistant who will through our executive assistant who will probably help your help you much faster probably help your help you much faster probably help your help you much faster and better than we will because we are and better than we will because we are and better than we will because we are doing a million things. So this person doing a million things. So this person doing a million things. So this person is just dedicated to answer these little is just dedicated to answer these little is just dedicated to answer these little small admin questions. From that point small admin questions. From that point small admin questions. From that point on we when we got a taste of that we're on we when we got a taste of that we're on we when we got a taste of that we're like oh wow okay what else can we do in like oh wow okay what else can we do in like oh wow okay what else can we do in terms of like bigger decisions. So, uh, terms of like bigger decisions. So, uh, terms of like bigger decisions. So, uh, we we brought on a full-time CTO, and we we brought on a full-time CTO, and we we brought on a full-time CTO, and that was a great decision that we had that was a great decision that we had that was a great decision that we had because somebody who, uh, was able to because somebody who, uh, was able to because somebody who, uh, was able to kind of take ownership of all the kind of take ownership of all the kind of take ownership of all the engineering and product decisions and engineering and product decisions and engineering and product decisions and and hires and who's going to get hired and hires and who's going to get hired and hires and who's going to get hired next and vetting CVs and all that kind next and vetting CVs and all that kind next and vetting CVs and all that kind of stuff that takes all your time. Okay, of stuff that takes all your time. Okay, of stuff that takes all your time. Okay, great. That that was taken care of. We great. That that was taken care of. We great. That that was taken care of. We promoted somebody in customer support to promoted somebody in customer support to promoted somebody in customer support to somebody to take care of all of customer somebody to take care of all of customer somebody to take care of all of customer support and and manage people. Then, we support and and manage people. Then, we support and and manage people. Then, we didn't made another promotion that didn't made another promotion that didn't made another promotion that helped uh train the team. So somebody helped uh train the team. So somebody helped uh train the team. So somebody who's really versed in in the knowledge who's really versed in in the knowledge who's really versed in in the knowledge of the product became uh uh you know

of the product became uh uh you know of the product became uh uh you know somebody who trained trained uh the rest somebody who trained trained uh the rest somebody who trained trained uh the rest of the team members. Uh we invested in of the team members. Uh we invested in of the team members. Uh we invested in QA big time and and and that was an QA big time and and and that was an QA big time and and and that was an internal hire as well. Somebody who was internal hire as well. Somebody who was internal hire as well. Somebody who was actually was in support was really actually was in support was really actually was in support was really interested in getting into the interested in getting into the interested in getting into the engineering team and uh made that shift engineering team and uh made that shift engineering team and uh made that shift and that that also was another buffer and that that also was another buffer and that that also was another buffer between me and the engineers and all between me and the engineers and all between me and the engineers and all that kind of stuff. So I'm not saying that kind of stuff. So I'm not saying that kind of stuff. So I'm not saying it's perfect right now but it's a whole it's perfect right now but it's a whole it's perfect right now but it's a whole lot better. We still need to make a few lot better. We still need to make a few lot better. We still need to make a few hires uh to free up my time. Um somebody hires uh to free up my time. Um somebody hires uh to free up my time. Um somebody I really highly uh admire and listen to I really highly uh admire and listen to I really highly uh admire and listen to a lot is uh is Iman Abdullah who was the a lot is uh is Iman Abdullah who was the a lot is uh is Iman Abdullah who was the president of of Absumo for a very long president of of Absumo for a very long president of of Absumo for a very long time. Um and he's taught me a lot about time. Um and he's taught me a lot about time. Um and he's taught me a lot about like hey he has this analogy of like the like hey he has this analogy of like the like hey he has this analogy of like the the the camp the camp manager, you know, the the camp the camp manager, you know, the the camp the camp manager, you know, he doesn't actually build the tents. He he doesn't actually build the tents. He he doesn't actually build the tents. He has his coffee mug in his hand and he has his coffee mug in his hand and he has his coffee mug in his hand and he tells people, hey, do this next step. Do tells people, hey, do this next step. Do tells people, hey, do this next step. Do this next step. Right? And so always this next step. Right? And so always this next step. Right? And so always think about this idea of having a mug in think about this idea of having a mug in think about this idea of having a mug in your hand and try to delegate as much as your hand and try to delegate as much as your hand and try to delegate as much as possible and not actually do the work.

possible and not actually do the work. possible and not actually do the work. He actually encourages me Nicole to be He actually encourages me Nicole to be He actually encourages me Nicole to be allergic to work. Try try to be allergic allergic to work. Try try to be allergic allergic to work. Try try to be allergic to work, which is very hard as a to work, which is very hard as a to work, which is very hard as a bootstrap founder because that's how you bootstrap founder because that's how you bootstrap founder because that's how you got where you are is working. But then got where you are is working. But then got where you are is working. But then you realize, okay, I need to empower you realize, okay, I need to empower you realize, okay, I need to empower other people so that I can have a life. other people so that I can have a life. other people so that I can have a life. Yeah. Yeah. That's and that you know if Yeah. Yeah. That's and that you know if Yeah. Yeah. That's and that you know if you don't grow a company to the size you don't grow a company to the size you don't grow a company to the size that you have grown it you don't run that you have grown it you don't run that you have grown it you don't run into these these into these these into these these speed bumps I call them right it's speed bumps I call them right it's speed bumps I call them right it's things that that you hit and they they things that that you hit and they they things that that you hit and they they feel like roadblocks at the time you feel like roadblocks at the time you feel like roadblocks at the time you can't take a vacation like that's can't take a vacation like that's can't take a vacation like that's terrible but you you get into it you terrible but you you get into it you terrible but you you get into it you figure it out I mean this is what being figure it out I mean this is what being figure it out I mean this is what being an entrepreneur so much of it is just an entrepreneur so much of it is just an entrepreneur so much of it is just troubleshooting and creativity you know troubleshooting and creativity you know troubleshooting and creativity you know I just want to say one thing about that I just want to say one thing about that I just want to say one thing about that because I know that I heard this advice because I know that I heard this advice because I know that I heard this advice when I was my first few years of boost when I was my first few years of boost when I was my first few years of boost strapping and I said, "This sounds strapping and I said, "This sounds strapping and I said, "This sounds great, but I don't have the budget to great, but I don't have the budget to great, but I don't have the budget to hire anybody, right? I can't hire I I hire anybody, right? I can't hire I I hire anybody, right? I can't hire I I don't have any extra money laying around don't have any extra money laying around don't have any extra money laying around even to hire an EA." And my answer to even to hire an EA." And my answer to even to hire an EA." And my answer to myself back then and to anybody who's myself back then and to anybody who's myself back then and to anybody who's asking that or thinking that right now asking that or thinking that right now asking that or thinking that right now is ask yourself, how can you afford it?

is ask yourself, how can you afford it? is ask yourself, how can you afford it? If you how can you carve out X amount of If you how can you carve out X amount of If you how can you carve out X amount of dollars a month to pay for that next dollars a month to pay for that next dollars a month to pay for that next position? Don't think about all the position? Don't think about all the position? Don't think about all the positions right now. Just think about positions right now. Just think about positions right now. Just think about that next position if it's as EA or that next position if it's as EA or that next position if it's as EA or whoever it is. And it could be launching whoever it is. And it could be launching whoever it is. And it could be launching a new product. It could be increasing a new product. It could be increasing a new product. It could be increasing your pricing. It could be adding some your pricing. It could be adding some your pricing. It could be adding some ex, you know, expansion revenue, some ex, you know, expansion revenue, some ex, you know, expansion revenue, some premium support, whatever. But don't premium support, whatever. But don't premium support, whatever. But don't just say, "I can't afford it." How can just say, "I can't afford it." How can just say, "I can't afford it." How can you afford it? Is really what you need you afford it? Is really what you need you afford it? Is really what you need to find out because the alternative is to find out because the alternative is to find out because the alternative is not sustainable. Right. not sustainable. Right. not sustainable. Right. That's right. That's right. Run an That's right. That's right. Run an That's right. That's right. Run an annual special and sell a bunch of annual special and sell a bunch of annual special and sell a bunch of annual plans, right? No, this is this is annual plans, right? No, this is this is annual plans, right? No, this is this is a mindset shift that I had as well where a mindset shift that I had as well where a mindset shift that I had as well where I would come up with ideas that would I would come up with ideas that would I would come up with ideas that would solve a problem and then I would figure solve a problem and then I would figure solve a problem and then I would figure out excuses why I couldn't implement out excuses why I couldn't implement out excuses why I couldn't implement those ideas. And what you're saying is those ideas. And what you're saying is those ideas. And what you're saying is just get rid of the excuse. How can I just get rid of the excuse. How can I just get rid of the excuse. How can I instead of I can't. So, as we're heading instead of I can't. So, as we're heading instead of I can't. So, as we're heading towards time, I have I think one more towards time, I have I think one more towards time, I have I think one more question for you and it's about the question for you and it's about the question for you and it's about the future since you're steeped in webinars future since you're steeped in webinars future since you're steeped in webinars and streaming technology and all that. and streaming technology and all that. and streaming technology and all that. like when you look ahead three years, like when you look ahead three years, like when you look ahead three years, five years, where do you see the webinar five years, where do you see the webinar five years, where do you see the webinar landscape heading?

landscape heading? landscape heading? Yeah. So, we've already um explored this Yeah. So, we've already um explored this Yeah. So, we've already um explored this idea and we're already moving in that idea and we're already moving in that idea and we're already moving in that direction, a different direction. Um direction, a different direction. Um direction, a different direction. Um we're still very much into uh live we're still very much into uh live we're still very much into uh live teaching, live learning uh with teaching, live learning uh with teaching, live learning uh with webinars. But one of the things that webinars. But one of the things that webinars. But one of the things that we've learned from our customers, we we've learned from our customers, we we've learned from our customers, we we'd get on calls and and chat with them we'd get on calls and and chat with them we'd get on calls and and chat with them and figure out like what are they doing? and figure out like what are they doing? and figure out like what are they doing? And I was really interested in like what And I was really interested in like what And I was really interested in like what they actually sell. And most of them they actually sell. And most of them they actually sell. And most of them were kind of frankensteining a lot of were kind of frankensteining a lot of were kind of frankensteining a lot of different software together to run their different software together to run their different software together to run their cohorted live courses. cohorted live courses. cohorted live courses. So they would for example have a landing So they would for example have a landing So they would for example have a landing page on lead pages and then they would page on lead pages and then they would page on lead pages and then they would have a payment processor some sort of um have a payment processor some sort of um have a payment processor some sort of um cart like Sam car or something like cart like Sam car or something like cart like Sam car or something like that. These are all great products by that. These are all great products by that. These are all great products by the way. Right. And uh and then they the way. Right. And uh and then they the way. Right. And uh and then they would uh have zoom so they can do the would uh have zoom so they can do the would uh have zoom so they can do the actual session. And then they would have actual session. And then they would have actual session. And then they would have some sort of membership software like some sort of membership software like some sort of membership software like Teachable or uh or something like that Teachable or uh or something like that Teachable or uh or something like that so that they can take the recording from so that they can take the recording from so that they can take the recording from the Zoom and put it in the Teachable and the Zoom and put it in the Teachable and the Zoom and put it in the Teachable and then give the the student access to then give the the student access to then give the the student access to that. Um and so they have like a whole that. Um and so they have like a whole that. Um and so they have like a whole bunch of things moving around so they bunch of things moving around so they bunch of things moving around so they can run these live cohorted courses. Um, can run these live cohorted courses. Um, can run these live cohorted courses. Um, these are like seven-week courses on these are like seven-week courses on these are like seven-week courses on accounting or something like that and accounting or something like that and accounting or something like that and and they're all live and there's and they're all live and there's and they're all live and there's handouts and people show up and things handouts and people show up and things handouts and people show up and things like that. Um, and and there's been a like that. Um, and and there's been a like that. Um, and and there's been a shift big time in terms of live cohort shift big time in terms of live cohort shift big time in terms of live cohort of courses recently because of uh of courses recently because of uh of courses recently because of uh completion rates. Of course, co pushes completion rates. Of course, co pushes completion rates. Of course, co pushes everything, but also just people love everything, but also just people love everything, but also just people love the community aspect of growing together the community aspect of growing together the community aspect of growing together with another another cohort. So, what we

with another another cohort. So, what we with another another cohort. So, what we learned from our customers is that um learned from our customers is that um learned from our customers is that um they have there's all these little they have there's all these little they have there's all these little potholes in this system. for example, potholes in this system. for example, potholes in this system. for example, they're running a coaching program and they're running a coaching program and they're running a coaching program and somebody stops paying their fee and somebody stops paying their fee and somebody stops paying their fee and they're like, "Hey, this is not for me they're like, "Hey, this is not for me they're like, "Hey, this is not for me anymore." They still have all the anymore." They still have all the anymore." They still have all the invites and the links from Zoom so they invites and the links from Zoom so they invites and the links from Zoom so they can actually attend if they wanted to. can actually attend if they wanted to. can actually attend if they wanted to. They h they can disconnect them from They h they can disconnect them from They h they can disconnect them from Teachable, but they have to also Teachable, but they have to also Teachable, but they have to also disconnect them from the billing. And disconnect them from the billing. And disconnect them from the billing. And it's a it's it's actually too much for it's a it's it's actually too much for it's a it's it's actually too much for somebody who's running their business by somebody who's running their business by somebody who's running their business by themsel, you know. themsel, you know. themsel, you know. So, we realized, well, we already do all So, we realized, well, we already do all So, we realized, well, we already do all this stuff with our Ninja, but we just this stuff with our Ninja, but we just this stuff with our Ninja, but we just do single sessions. we don't, you know, do single sessions. we don't, you know, do single sessions. we don't, you know, um so we're we've already kind of um so we're we've already kind of um so we're we've already kind of announced this with our own members. announced this with our own members. announced this with our own members. We've have a courses module that's We've have a courses module that's We've have a courses module that's really just dedicated to live cohorted really just dedicated to live cohorted really just dedicated to live cohorted courses um which will allow people to uh courses um which will allow people to uh courses um which will allow people to uh have their students sign up, have their have their students sign up, have their have their students sign up, have their own little uh portal and dashboard where own little uh portal and dashboard where own little uh portal and dashboard where they can go directly inside to go to the they can go directly inside to go to the they can go directly inside to go to the the live uh to the live session and also the live uh to the live session and also the live uh to the live session and also watch the replay automatically when it's watch the replay automatically when it's watch the replay automatically when it's over. Watch that and see that. We were over. Watch that and see that. We were over. Watch that and see that. We were really we're really bullish on online really we're really bullish on online really we're really bullish on online learning uh in the future and especially learning uh in the future and especially learning uh in the future and especially live online learning. Um but we also live online learning. Um but we also live online learning. Um but we also perceived that there's going to be a lot perceived that there's going to be a lot perceived that there's going to be a lot of hybrid type of live and recorded. So of hybrid type of live and recorded. So of hybrid type of live and recorded. So like do a bit of homework and then come like do a bit of homework and then come like do a bit of homework and then come in once a week and and meet with with in once a week and and meet with with in once a week and and meet with with your instructor or with your group and your instructor or with your group and your instructor or with your group and do some project together. Um so you know do some project together. Um so you know do some project together. Um so you know when I started in webinars it was large when I started in webinars it was large when I started in webinars it was large live events you know 100 200 300 people live events you know 100 200 300 people live events you know 100 200 300 people a thousand people going to your webinar a thousand people going to your webinar a thousand people going to your webinar and people selling product and all that

and people selling product and all that and people selling product and all that kind of stuff and I think it's now kind of stuff and I think it's now kind of stuff and I think it's now changed to more of smaller groups but um changed to more of smaller groups but um changed to more of smaller groups but um you know more focused more intense more you know more focused more intense more you know more focused more intense more value uh type of things um and for us value uh type of things um and for us value uh type of things um and for us our customers when we kind of beta IDed our customers when we kind of beta IDed our customers when we kind of beta IDed it we said hey would you look at this it we said hey would you look at this it we said hey would you look at this idea and we we kind of did some mockups idea and we we kind of did some mockups idea and we we kind of did some mockups and some some uh some some demos they and some some uh some some demos they and some some uh some some demos they they realized, oh this is great then I they realized, oh this is great then I they realized, oh this is great then I can just sell my course with webinar can just sell my course with webinar can just sell my course with webinar ninja directly and then be able to give ninja directly and then be able to give ninja directly and then be able to give access to my to my customers in one access to my to my customers in one access to my to my customers in one place. So uh that was an epiphany for us place. So uh that was an epiphany for us place. So uh that was an epiphany for us to realize okay we can solve another to realize okay we can solve another to realize okay we can solve another problem for our customers that they're problem for our customers that they're problem for our customers that they're really uh going through. really uh going through. really uh going through. So it sounds like bundling you think So it sounds like bundling you think So it sounds like bundling you think that a lot more tools will be bundling that a lot more tools will be bundling that a lot more tools will be bundling additional functionality. Yeah, in that additional functionality. Yeah, in that additional functionality. Yeah, in that model. Yeah. model. Yeah. model. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I think that makes sense. All right, so I think that makes sense. All right, so I think that makes sense. All right, so one last question before I let you go. one last question before I let you go. one last question before I let you go. Um, what's the most surprising thing Um, what's the most surprising thing Um, what's the most surprising thing you've learned to date running Webinar you've learned to date running Webinar you've learned to date running Webinar Ninja? It's a hard question. I know when Ninja? It's a hard question. I know when Ninja? It's a hard question. I know when I asked for one, but the I would say the most surprising the I would say the most surprising thing, the thing that caught me by thing, the thing that caught me by thing, the thing that caught me by surprise was how much I had to change as surprise was how much I had to change as surprise was how much I had to change as a person. Like I didn't know how much a person. Like I didn't know how much a person. Like I didn't know how much personal growth is involved to be able personal growth is involved to be able personal growth is involved to be able to grow a company. Like I I thought I to grow a company. Like I I thought I to grow a company. Like I I thought I was like, okay, you got to learn, you was like, okay, you got to learn, you was like, okay, you got to learn, you got to know the strategies, you got to got to know the strategies, you got to got to know the strategies, you got to read the right books, maybe listen to read the right books, maybe listen to read the right books, maybe listen to some interviews. No, like I don't some interviews. No, like I don't some interviews. No, like I don't recognize the person that I was four recognize the person that I was four recognize the person that I was four years ago. Like you have to change your years ago. Like you have to change your years ago. Like you have to change your habits, who you are, the way you think,

habits, who you are, the way you think, habits, who you are, the way you think, um you know, your beliefs like the even um you know, your beliefs like the even um you know, your beliefs like the even just that small thing with bootstrapping just that small thing with bootstrapping just that small thing with bootstrapping like you question your beliefs. Is that like you question your beliefs. Is that like you question your beliefs. Is that really great a great idea for everybody? really great a great idea for everybody? really great a great idea for everybody? Is that a great idea for you? maybe, you Is that a great idea for you? maybe, you Is that a great idea for you? maybe, you know, you need to you need to be able to know, you need to you need to be able to know, you need to you need to be able to switch your values and the way you think switch your values and the way you think switch your values and the way you think so that you can uh survive as a so that you can uh survive as a so that you can uh survive as a business. Um, and it's just, you know, business. Um, and it's just, you know, business. Um, and it's just, you know, one of one of the things I I learned one of one of the things I I learned one of one of the things I I learned from the the biography, um, Shoe Dog, from the the biography, um, Shoe Dog, from the the biography, um, Shoe Dog, which is Phil Knight's memoir, is how which is Phil Knight's memoir, is how which is Phil Knight's memoir, is how much he had to evolve, how much he had much he had to evolve, how much he had much he had to evolve, how much he had to change, how much, you know, crap he to change, how much, you know, crap he to change, how much, you know, crap he had to go through to get get to where he had to go through to get get to where he had to go through to get get to where he was. Um and and I I see that in myself was. Um and and I I see that in myself was. Um and and I I see that in myself too and that was the most surprising too and that was the most surprising too and that was the most surprising thing for me is like how much you have thing for me is like how much you have thing for me is like how much you have to evolve as a person. to evolve as a person. to evolve as a person. It's a great answer sir. Thanks so much It's a great answer sir. Thanks so much It's a great answer sir. Thanks so much for joining me on microcom on air today. for joining me on microcom on air today. for joining me on microcom on air today. Folks want to follow you. You are the Folks want to follow you. You are the Folks want to follow you. You are the Omar Zenhome on Twitter. Thanks again Omar Zenhome on Twitter. Thanks again Omar Zenhome on Twitter. Thanks again sir. sir. sir. Thanks Rob. Thanks Rob. Thanks Rob. All right and as we head out I want to All right and as we head out I want to All right and as we head out I want to remind you that Microcom Mastermind remind you that Microcom Mastermind remind you that Microcom Mastermind applications close this Friday. Head to applications close this Friday. Head to applications close this Friday. Head to micromasterminds.com micromasterminds.com micromasterminds.com if you want to be paired up with other if you want to be paired up with other if you want to be paired up with other like-minded individuals at similar like-minded individuals at similar like-minded individuals at similar stages to you. And we have done more stages to you. And we have done more stages to you. And we have done more than 600 matches over the past I think than 600 matches over the past I think than 600 matches over the past I think 18 months since we've been doing this.

18 months since we've been doing this. 18 months since we've been doing this. More than 150 million in ARR of More than 150 million in ARR of More than 150 million in ARR of companies uh founders who have matched. companies uh founders who have matched. companies uh founders who have matched. So whether you're just getting started, So whether you're just getting started, So whether you're just getting started, whether you're doing north of, you know, whether you're doing north of, you know, whether you're doing north of, you know, well north of a million dollars, we have well north of a million dollars, we have well north of a million dollars, we have other folks who we can match you with. other folks who we can match you with. other folks who we can match you with. And as always, thank you to Hey and And as always, thank you to Hey and And as always, thank you to Hey and Stripe for being our headline partners. Stripe for being our headline partners. Stripe for being our headline partners. Um, they have been longtime supporters Um, they have been longtime supporters Um, they have been longtime supporters of MicroCom and they continue to be of MicroCom and they continue to be of MicroCom and they continue to be through 2022. Thanks again for joining through 2022. Thanks again for joining through 2022. Thanks again for joining me here and I'll see you again at same me here and I'll see you again at same me here and I'll see you again at same time, same place in two weeks.