Break Through the 7 SaaS Plateaus - Rob Walling at MicroConf US 2025

Plateaus are the death of SAS. Well, Plateaus are the death of SAS. Well, churn is the death of SAS, but churn churn is the death of SAS, but churn churn is the death of SAS, but churn causes plateaus. I went through tiny causes plateaus. I went through tiny causes plateaus. I went through tiny seed. We have 192 investments. So, I seed. We have 192 investments. So, I seed. We have 192 investments. So, I have 192 MR graphs. And so, I started have 192 MR graphs. And so, I started have 192 MR graphs. And so, I started flipping through. I I went through flipping through. I I went through flipping through. I I went through literally every one of them. And I tried literally every one of them. And I tried literally every one of them. And I tried to find plateaus that people broke to find plateaus that people broke to find plateaus that people broke through. And then I reached out to the through. And then I reached out to the through. And then I reached out to the founders in Slack and then I said, "Hey, founders in Slack and then I said, "Hey, founders in Slack and then I said, "Hey, what what caused this plateau and then what what caused this plateau and then what what caused this plateau and then how did you get through it?" Now, the how did you get through it?" Now, the how did you get through it?" Now, the bad news, I think I'll try to only say bad news, I think I'll try to only say bad news, I think I'll try to only say this once because it is kind of sad. I this once because it is kind of sad. I this once because it is kind of sad. I wasn't I always knew the plateaus were wasn't I always knew the plateaus were wasn't I always knew the plateaus were really brutal to get through. What I really brutal to get through. What I really brutal to get through. What I learned going through the 192 tiny sea learned going through the 192 tiny sea learned going through the 192 tiny sea companies is that it was about 85 or 90% companies is that it was about 85 or 90% companies is that it was about 85 or 90% of folks who who did plateau never made of folks who who did plateau never made of folks who who did plateau never made it through their plateau. I mean it's it through their plateau. I mean it's it through their plateau. I mean it's really grim. So, as I was going through really grim. So, as I was going through really grim. So, as I was going through these, I learned some stuff from this, these, I learned some stuff from this, these, I learned some stuff from this, right? Because I always have a right? Because I always have a right? Because I always have a hypothesis of like, plateaus, XYZ, hey, hypothesis of like, plateaus, XYZ, hey, hypothesis of like, plateaus, XYZ, hey, they're hard to get through. But as I they're hard to get through. But as I they're hard to get through. But as I went through all these revenue graphs, I went through all these revenue graphs, I went through all these revenue graphs, I learned number one. Um, these seven learned number one. Um, these seven learned number one. Um, these seven apply after you have some type of apply after you have some type of apply after you have some type of emerging product market fit. So, think emerging product market fit. So, think emerging product market fit. So, think about this as like, you know what, I'm about this as like, you know what, I'm about this as like, you know what, I'm already at 10, 20, 30k MR minimum up already at 10, 20, 30k MR minimum up already at 10, 20, 30k MR minimum up into the millions of ARR. That's where into the millions of ARR. That's where into the millions of ARR. That's where this talk applies. The solutions are this talk applies. The solutions are this talk applies. The solutions are obvious. I think I already said that.

obvious. I think I already said that. obvious. I think I already said that. Usually, it's like, hey, you're Usually, it's like, hey, you're Usually, it's like, hey, you're plateaued because you don't have enough plateaued because you don't have enough plateaued because you don't have enough leads. Well, what's the solution? Get leads. Well, what's the solution? Get leads. Well, what's the solution? Get more leads, right? The solutions are more leads, right? The solutions are more leads, right? The solutions are obvious. It's not going to be helpful. obvious. It's not going to be helpful. obvious. It's not going to be helpful. The the helpful part is being able to The the helpful part is being able to The the helpful part is being able to identify if you're in the plateau if identify if you're in the plateau if identify if you're in the plateau if that's the reason for it. And then uh to that's the reason for it. And then uh to that's the reason for it. And then uh to hear an example of another founder who hear an example of another founder who hear an example of another founder who struggled with it and got through it. As struggled with it and got through it. As struggled with it and got through it. As I already said, predicting and avoiding I already said, predicting and avoiding I already said, predicting and avoiding a plateau is much better than hitting it a plateau is much better than hitting it a plateau is much better than hitting it because the numbers are they're not because the numbers are they're not because the numbers are they're not great, at least in my sample size of, great, at least in my sample size of, great, at least in my sample size of, you know, just under 200. you know, just under 200. you know, just under 200. And the other interesting thing was of And the other interesting thing was of And the other interesting thing was of the six examples I'm going to give you, the six examples I'm going to give you, the six examples I'm going to give you, three of them are actual plateaus three of them are actual plateaus three of them are actual plateaus someone hit and made it through and someone hit and made it through and someone hit and made it through and three of them are we saw a plateau three of them are we saw a plateau three of them are we saw a plateau coming. Profit well kept telling us we coming. Profit well kept telling us we coming. Profit well kept telling us we were going to plateau and we made this were going to plateau and we made this were going to plateau and we made this change and avoided it. And that's also change and avoided it. And that's also change and avoided it. And that's also good, right? So just before we dive in good, right? So just before we dive in good, right? So just before we dive in to these seven, the SAS plateau to these seven, the SAS plateau to these seven, the SAS plateau equation, equation, equation, how much new MR are you adding in a how much new MR are you adding in a how much new MR are you adding in a given month? I know it's not consistent. given month? I know it's not consistent. given month? I know it's not consistent. And I know it's not the exact same And I know it's not the exact same And I know it's not the exact same number every month, but let's say you're number every month, but let's say you're number every month, but let's say you're adding well, we do an example. You're adding well, we do an example. You're adding well, we do an example. You're adding $3,000 of MR and your monthly adding $3,000 of MR and your monthly adding $3,000 of MR and your monthly revenue churn is 5%. 3,000 divided by revenue churn is 5%. 3,000 divided by revenue churn is 5%. 3,000 divided by 0.05, you will math dictates that you 0.05, you will math dictates that you 0.05, you will math dictates that you will plateau at 60k of MR. And likewise, will plateau at 60k of MR. And likewise, will plateau at 60k of MR. And likewise, since it's just a linear equation, if since it's just a linear equation, if since it's just a linear equation, if you cut your churn in half, right, to 2 you cut your churn in half, right, to 2 you cut your churn in half, right, to 2 and a half%, 120k MR, that's it. If and a half%, 120k MR, that's it. If and a half%, 120k MR, that's it. If you're adding three, I mean 2.5% turn is you're adding three, I mean 2.5% turn is you're adding three, I mean 2.5% turn is not the worst, right? and 3% MR, I'm not the worst, right? and 3% MR, I'm not the worst, right? and 3% MR, I'm sorry, $3,000 MR. Also not the worst, sorry, $3,000 MR. Also not the worst, sorry, $3,000 MR. Also not the worst, but that's it. You have a $1.4 million but that's it. You have a $1.4 million but that's it. You have a $1.4 million business. And unless you change the business. And unless you change the business. And unless you change the fundamentals of these through, you know,

fundamentals of these through, you know, fundamentals of these through, you know, there's a bunch of different levers to there's a bunch of different levers to there's a bunch of different levers to pull to change churn and to change new pull to change churn and to change new pull to change churn and to change new MR. Unless you change that, that's your MR. Unless you change that, that's your MR. Unless you change that, that's your business. You're going to plateau. business. You're going to plateau. business. You're going to plateau. Predict it. Avoid it. All right. Seven Predict it. Avoid it. All right. Seven Predict it. Avoid it. All right. Seven SAS plateaus. Oh, and the other thing SAS plateaus. Oh, and the other thing SAS plateaus. Oh, and the other thing I'm going to say, the first four are the I'm going to say, the first four are the I'm going to say, the first four are the most common and then the the latter most common and then the the latter most common and then the the latter three are almost a they're just a lot three are almost a they're just a lot three are almost a they're just a lot less common, right? So, they're a subset less common, right? So, they're a subset less common, right? So, they're a subset or a lower category of it. So, the first or a lower category of it. So, the first or a lower category of it. So, the first one's a leaky funnel. What is a leaky one's a leaky funnel. What is a leaky one's a leaky funnel. What is a leaky funnel? So, I'm not including churn in funnel? So, I'm not including churn in funnel? So, I'm not including churn in your funnel. There's a separate one for your funnel. There's a separate one for your funnel. There's a separate one for churn. Leaky funnel is, hey, you know, churn. Leaky funnel is, hey, you know, churn. Leaky funnel is, hey, you know, someone hears about you, then maybe they someone hears about you, then maybe they someone hears about you, then maybe they sign up for a trial, then they do they sign up for a trial, then they do they sign up for a trial, then they do they convert or not, that type of stuff. So, convert or not, that type of stuff. So, convert or not, that type of stuff. So, that's the funnel. So, what does this that's the funnel. So, what does this that's the funnel. So, what does this look like? How do you know if you have a look like? How do you know if you have a look like? How do you know if you have a leaky funnel? How do I know if my funnel leaky funnel? How do I know if my funnel leaky funnel? How do I know if my funnel is the problem or if I don't have enough is the problem or if I don't have enough is the problem or if I don't have enough leads or if my churn is too high, right? leads or if my churn is too high, right? leads or if my churn is too high, right? I define a leaky funnel as something I define a leaky funnel as something I define a leaky funnel as something that's not in these ranges. These are my that's not in these ranges. These are my that's not in these ranges. These are my rule of thumb ranges. If you have a rule of thumb ranges. If you have a rule of thumb ranges. If you have a trial, and this is for low touch, trial, and this is for low touch, trial, and this is for low touch, there's a whole other stuff for high there's a whole other stuff for high there's a whole other stuff for high touch, but a low touch funnel. Trial touch, but a low touch funnel. Trial touch, but a low touch funnel. Trial requires a credit card. You can go to requires a credit card. You can go to requires a credit card. You can go to sasplaybook.com/resources. sasplaybook.com/resources. sasplaybook.com/resources. And that's a literally the one on the And that's a literally the one on the And that's a literally the one on the right is a screenshot from the website.

right is a screenshot from the website. right is a screenshot from the website. This is in SAS playbook if you have a This is in SAS playbook if you have a This is in SAS playbook if you have a copy. 10 bucks on Kindle. I won't read copy. 10 bucks on Kindle. I won't read copy. 10 bucks on Kindle. I won't read through these numbers here, but if through these numbers here, but if through these numbers here, but if you're within these ranges, generally you're within these ranges, generally you're within these ranges, generally your funnel's probably okay. You your funnel's probably okay. You your funnel's probably okay. You probably don't need to really spend a probably don't need to really spend a probably don't need to really spend a lot of time on it. I mean, there's some lot of time on it. I mean, there's some lot of time on it. I mean, there's some exceptions, but like this is a general exceptions, but like this is a general exceptions, but like this is a general guideline. This is why when I posted on guideline. This is why when I posted on guideline. This is why when I posted on Twitter one time about rules of thumb Twitter one time about rules of thumb Twitter one time about rules of thumb and how important they are, whether in and how important they are, whether in and how important they are, whether in SAS or anything else, and someone said, SAS or anything else, and someone said, SAS or anything else, and someone said, "Bullshit, there are no rules of thumb. "Bullshit, there are no rules of thumb. "Bullshit, there are no rules of thumb. That's common knowledge. And common That's common knowledge. And common That's common knowledge. And common knowledge is da da da." And it's like, knowledge is da da da." And it's like, knowledge is da da da." And it's like, no, having a rule of thumb generally, if no, having a rule of thumb generally, if no, having a rule of thumb generally, if I started another SAS tomorrow and I had I started another SAS tomorrow and I had I started another SAS tomorrow and I had a credit card up front and my trial to a credit card up front and my trial to a credit card up front and my trial to paid was 20%. I know that that's the paid was 20%. I know that that's the paid was 20%. I know that that's the weakest part of my funnel. I know it weakest part of my funnel. I know it weakest part of my funnel. I know it from experience. I know it from looking from experience. I know it from looking from experience. I know it from looking at a bunch of companies. So, you can at at a bunch of companies. So, you can at at a bunch of companies. So, you can at least take this, you know, this loose least take this, you know, this loose least take this, you know, this loose thing and realize ah, if I'm within thing and realize ah, if I'm within thing and realize ah, if I'm within these, I'm probably doing okay. And if these, I'm probably doing okay. And if these, I'm probably doing okay. And if I'm below these, I probably need to work I'm below these, I probably need to work I'm below these, I probably need to work on this first. And this is one of the on this first. And this is one of the on this first. And this is one of the most common. High churn and and leaky most common. High churn and and leaky most common. High churn and and leaky funnel are the the two that I see the funnel are the the two that I see the funnel are the the two that I see the most common. All right. So, the cause is most common. All right. So, the cause is most common. All right. So, the cause is a leaky funnel. What do you do? Of a leaky funnel. What do you do? Of a leaky funnel. What do you do? Of course, you fix your funnel. You course, you fix your funnel. You course, you fix your funnel. You troubleshoot your funnel. You start at troubleshoot your funnel. You start at troubleshoot your funnel. You start at the bottom. There's a whole process here the bottom. There's a whole process here the bottom. There's a whole process here I don't have time to go into because I I don't have time to go into because I I don't have time to go into because I only have four minutes per uh per point only have four minutes per uh per point only have four minutes per uh per point here. But the example I'm going to give here. But the example I'm going to give here. But the example I'm going to give you today is scraping B. I got you today is scraping B. I got you today is scraping B. I got permission from all of these founders.

permission from all of these founders. permission from all of these founders. Is Pierre in here? Pierre. Pierre. There Is Pierre in here? Pierre. Pierre. There Is Pierre in here? Pierre. Pierre. There you are in the way in the back. So, you are in the way in the back. So, you are in the way in the back. So, Scraping B um highly successful SAS Scraping B um highly successful SAS Scraping B um highly successful SAS company. Last time they were public company. Last time they were public company. Last time they were public about MR I think they were at two or about MR I think they were at two or about MR I think they were at two or three I think. Uh yeah, million of oh of three I think. Uh yeah, million of oh of three I think. Uh yeah, million of oh of ARR I'm sorry, not ARR. Um they they've ARR I'm sorry, not ARR. Um they they've ARR I'm sorry, not ARR. Um they they've been building in public. So Pierre said been building in public. So Pierre said been building in public. So Pierre said I said hey you know why did you plateau I said hey you know why did you plateau I said hey you know why did you plateau and why do you think it was a leaky and why do you think it was a leaky and why do you think it was a leaky funnel? And Pierre said we're selling a funnel? And Pierre said we're selling a funnel? And Pierre said we're selling a commodity and we were between 50 and commodity and we were between 50 and commodity and we were between 50 and 100% more expensive than competition 100% more expensive than competition 100% more expensive than competition on some dimension which was concurrency. on some dimension which was concurrency. on some dimension which was concurrency. So a I like the fact that he was just So a I like the fact that he was just So a I like the fact that he was just like we're selling a commodity. Like how like we're selling a commodity. Like how like we're selling a commodity. Like how many people would admit that? It was many people would admit that? It was many people would admit that? It was it's kind of cool. So once we were able it's kind of cool. So once we were able it's kind of cool. So once we were able to offer the same kind of price thanks to offer the same kind of price thanks to offer the same kind of price thanks to new infrastructure. We almost doubled to new infrastructure. We almost doubled to new infrastructure. We almost doubled our number of new customers per month our number of new customers per month our number of new customers per month overnight. So they were losing people overnight. So they were losing people overnight. So they were losing people were signing up and then just bailing were signing up and then just bailing were signing up and then just bailing right in the middle of the funnel. It right in the middle of the funnel. It right in the middle of the funnel. It the lowering the price didn't allow us the lowering the price didn't allow us the lowering the price didn't allow us to overcome a plateau per se, but it to overcome a plateau per se, but it to overcome a plateau per se, but it sure allowed us to avoid it as we were sure allowed us to avoid it as we were sure allowed us to avoid it as we were close to the churn equals new MR phase. close to the churn equals new MR phase. close to the churn equals new MR phase. That's the equation I had earlier in the That's the equation I had earlier in the That's the equation I had earlier in the talk, right? We offered way more for the talk, right? We offered way more for the talk, right? We offered way more for the same price. Haven't touched the nominal same price. Haven't touched the nominal same price. Haven't touched the nominal price of the plan, but increased what price of the plan, but increased what price of the plan, but increased what each plan had to offer. So, this is each plan had to offer. So, this is each plan had to offer. So, this is another clever way to raise pricing. I another clever way to raise pricing. I another clever way to raise pricing. I did this twice with Drip where I really did this twice with Drip where I really did this twice with Drip where I really liked our price points with Drip. 49.99 liked our price points with Drip. 49.99 liked our price points with Drip. 49.99 149 and up. And if we just lowered the 149 and up. And if we just lowered the 149 and up. And if we just lowered the number of subscribers you got per plan, number of subscribers you got per plan, number of subscribers you got per plan, we effectively had people upgrading we effectively had people upgrading we effectively had people upgrading quicker. And that's what Pierre is quicker. And that's what Pierre is quicker. And that's what Pierre is saying is you just kept the same pricing saying is you just kept the same pricing saying is you just kept the same pricing because you like the round number. You because you like the round number. You because you like the round number. You didn't want to go to 59 and 159 like didn't want to go to 59 and 159 like didn't want to go to 59 and 159 like this awkward pricing. You just kind of this awkward pricing. You just kind of this awkward pricing. You just kind of lower. So, that's how they raised

lower. So, that's how they raised lower. So, that's how they raised pricing. And so, uh, this is Mr. Graph. pricing. And so, uh, this is Mr. Graph. pricing. And so, uh, this is Mr. Graph. I removed by request for for everyone. I I removed by request for for everyone. I I removed by request for for everyone. I removed the um the date and the uh you removed the um the date and the uh you removed the um the date and the uh you know the actual um MR AR on the left but know the actual um MR AR on the left but know the actual um MR AR on the left but I will say everyone that I show in this I will say everyone that I show in this I will say everyone that I show in this talk is mid6 figures into seven figures. talk is mid6 figures into seven figures. talk is mid6 figures into seven figures. So that gives you an idea none of the So that gives you an idea none of the So that gives you an idea none of the these are not like 10k MR companies these are not like 10k MR companies these are not like 10k MR companies right so avoided a plateau by fixing right so avoided a plateau by fixing right so avoided a plateau by fixing their funnel number two as I've their funnel number two as I've their funnel number two as I've referenced high churn so what does high referenced high churn so what does high referenced high churn so what does high churn look like? churn look like? churn look like? This is a screenshot from the PDF of the This is a screenshot from the PDF of the This is a screenshot from the PDF of the SAS playbook. Um, SAS playbook. Um, SAS playbook. Um, this is how I define it. Now, here's the this is how I define it. Now, here's the this is how I define it. Now, here's the thing is gross turn, not net turn. thing is gross turn, not net turn. thing is gross turn, not net turn. There's a whole we can dive into the There's a whole we can dive into the There's a whole we can dive into the whole thing. This is revenue churn, not whole thing. This is revenue churn, not whole thing. This is revenue churn, not uh logo turn. If you are an enterprise uh logo turn. If you are an enterprise uh logo turn. If you are an enterprise sales company doing a lot of annual sales company doing a lot of annual sales company doing a lot of annual stuff, you should probably be two almost stuff, you should probably be two almost stuff, you should probably be two almost two points below this at any given two points below this at any given two points below this at any given point. I saw someone post to ex Twitter point. I saw someone post to ex Twitter point. I saw someone post to ex Twitter today and said, I have nine 9% monthly today and said, I have nine 9% monthly today and said, I have nine 9% monthly churn. Is that good or is that very bad? churn. Is that good or is that very bad? churn. Is that good or is that very bad? And I say that is not good based on this And I say that is not good based on this And I say that is not good based on this definition. almost catastrophic.

definition. almost catastrophic. definition. almost catastrophic. So this is how you know you literally So this is how you know you literally So this is how you know you literally come to this and say I'm 23% all right come to this and say I'm 23% all right come to this and say I'm 23% all right I'm okay if I have two 3% churn and I'm I'm okay if I have two 3% churn and I'm I'm okay if I have two 3% churn and I'm not enterprise sales I'm probably doing not enterprise sales I'm probably doing not enterprise sales I'm probably doing all right I'm not doing the worst and so the solution if you have if and so the solution if you have if you're good you're good you're good or no no yeah if you have we're back or no no yeah if you have we're back or no no yeah if you have we're back high churn you have high churn so here's high churn you have high churn so here's high churn you have high churn so here's the problem is this the solution that I the problem is this the solution that I the problem is this the solution that I see some people doing is like I'm not see some people doing is like I'm not see some people doing is like I'm not growing I just need more leads growing I just need more leads growing I just need more leads And I'll look and I'll say, "Let's look And I'll look and I'll say, "Let's look And I'll look and I'll say, "Let's look through your funnel. It's Wait, you're through your funnel. It's Wait, you're through your funnel. It's Wait, you're turning at 9 10% a month. You don't need turning at 9 10% a month. You don't need turning at 9 10% a month. You don't need more leads. You can't possibly outrun more leads. You can't possibly outrun more leads. You can't possibly outrun your churn. It's too much. You're your churn. It's too much. You're your churn. It's too much. You're turning over your whole customer base turning over your whole customer base turning over your whole customer base every eight months. This is not a every eight months. This is not a every eight months. This is not a subscription business at all. You you subscription business at all. You you subscription business at all. You you haven't built a subscription business. haven't built a subscription business. haven't built a subscription business. It's on fire." So, the the idea of It's on fire." So, the the idea of It's on fire." So, the the idea of adding more leads tends to be the the adding more leads tends to be the the adding more leads tends to be the the whack or the the um fix all, right? whack or the the um fix all, right? whack or the the um fix all, right? Everyone thinks if I have more leads, it Everyone thinks if I have more leads, it Everyone thinks if I have more leads, it fix everything. It doesn't. Not if you fix everything. It doesn't. Not if you fix everything. It doesn't. Not if you have the fundamentals of your business have the fundamentals of your business have the fundamentals of your business are not working, not if your turn is too are not working, not if your turn is too are not working, not if your turn is too high. And that is why I'm giving this high. And that is why I'm giving this high. And that is why I'm giving this talk is so you can say, "Oh, if I'm at talk is so you can say, "Oh, if I'm at talk is so you can say, "Oh, if I'm at 7% churn, I should probably work on 7% churn, I should probably work on 7% churn, I should probably work on that. And if I'm at, you know, 2% churn, that. And if I'm at, you know, 2% churn, that. And if I'm at, you know, 2% churn, I should probably know that I'm in a I should probably know that I'm in a I should probably know that I'm in a good spot here." So there's a couple good spot here." So there's a couple good spot here." So there's a couple things you can do um to get around things you can do um to get around things you can do um to get around churn. It is a huge topic. I think I've churn. It is a huge topic. I think I've churn. It is a huge topic. I think I've given entire talks on it. There's an given entire talks on it. There's an given entire talks on it. There's an entire chapter of the book. It's a lot entire chapter of the book. It's a lot entire chapter of the book. It's a lot to say. So sometimes it depends on which to say. So sometimes it depends on which to say. So sometimes it depends on which why people are turning. Sometimes people why people are turning. Sometimes people why people are turning. Sometimes people are turning because oh, you're missing are turning because oh, you're missing are turning because oh, you're missing this feature, this checkbox feature.

this feature, this checkbox feature. this feature, this checkbox feature. We'll get into that a little later. We'll get into that a little later. We'll get into that a little later. Competition, right? So you can build Competition, right? So you can build Competition, right? So you can build missing features, but realistically um missing features, but realistically um missing features, but realistically um the way I see it more often is that you the way I see it more often is that you the way I see it more often is that you stop serving high churn prospects or stop serving high churn prospects or stop serving high churn prospects or customers. Oftent times you have two customers. Oftent times you have two customers. Oftent times you have two types of customers, three types of types of customers, three types of types of customers, three types of customers. You have folks who are paying customers. You have folks who are paying customers. You have folks who are paying you more, who churn low, who sometimes you more, who churn low, who sometimes you more, who churn low, who sometimes are net negative churn, who stick around are net negative churn, who stick around are net negative churn, who stick around for a long time, who really aren't that for a long time, who really aren't that for a long time, who really aren't that much of a pain in the ass. And then you much of a pain in the ass. And then you much of a pain in the ass. And then you have the proumer B TOCish, the folks who have the proumer B TOCish, the folks who have the proumer B TOCish, the folks who are kind of dabbling in it, who are are kind of dabbling in it, who are are kind of dabbling in it, who are paying you less, who are the most paying you less, who are the most paying you less, who are the most headache, who churn the highest, right? headache, who churn the highest, right? headache, who churn the highest, right? and trying to figure out who you know and trying to figure out who you know and trying to figure out who you know what what how the the ICP is different what what how the the ICP is different what what how the the ICP is different from that is is the challenge here. Um from that is is the challenge here. Um from that is is the challenge here. Um and in that case you're essentially kind and in that case you're essentially kind and in that case you're essentially kind of moving up market. Even if you don't of moving up market. Even if you don't of moving up market. Even if you don't raise your prices, you often will just raise your prices, you often will just raise your prices, you often will just cancel your lowest plan, right? If you cancel your lowest plan, right? If you cancel your lowest plan, right? If you have a $19 plan and then a bunch of have a $19 plan and then a bunch of have a $19 plan and then a bunch of other plans up upstream, that $19 plan other plans up upstream, that $19 plan other plans up upstream, that $19 plan is usually going to turn higher and be a is usually going to turn higher and be a is usually going to turn higher and be a lot more demand. Uh you know, have a lot lot more demand. Uh you know, have a lot lot more demand. Uh you know, have a lot more demand. So we saw Jordan G do this more demand. So we saw Jordan G do this more demand. So we saw Jordan G do this with Cart Hook. If you go back and and with Cart Hook. If you go back and and with Cart Hook. If you go back and and reference how he had a velvet rope reference how he had a velvet rope reference how he had a velvet rope policy because they were doing 49 a policy because they were doing 49 a policy because they were doing 49 a month and up and at a certain point he month and up and at a certain point he month and up and at a certain point he said minimum plan is $300 a month and said minimum plan is $300 a month and said minimum plan is $300 a month and everyone has to do a demo with me and it everyone has to do a demo with me and it everyone has to do a demo with me and it pissed off a bunch of prospects and you pissed off a bunch of prospects and you pissed off a bunch of prospects and you didn't qu he if you were a brand new didn't qu he if you were a brand new didn't qu he if you were a brand new Shopify store you didn't qualify and Shopify store you didn't qualify and Shopify store you didn't qualify and they would turn you away and people were they would turn you away and people were they would turn you away and people were like mythed like why can't I do this and like mythed like why can't I do this and like mythed like why can't I do this and he said because our turn is catastrophic he said because our turn is catastrophic he said because our turn is catastrophic their turn I don't remember what it was their turn I don't remember what it was their turn I don't remember what it was eight or nine% probably but he knew that eight or nine% probably but he knew that eight or nine% probably but he knew that they wanted to grow to a multi-million they wanted to grow to a multi-million they wanted to grow to a multi-million dollar business and so he literally dollar business and so he literally dollar business and so he literally stopped serving the bottom end of the stopped serving the bottom end of the stopped serving the bottom end of the market we saw Gather do this in season market we saw Gather do this in season market we saw Gather do this in season two of Tiny Seed Tales where their two of Tiny Seed Tales where their two of Tiny Seed Tales where their bottom plan was $29 a month when they

bottom plan was $29 a month when they bottom plan was $29 a month when they joined Tiny Seed. And we said, "This is joined Tiny Seed. And we said, "This is joined Tiny Seed. And we said, "This is not a viable business. You're doing one, not a viable business. You're doing one, not a viable business. You're doing one, you're doing one demo to close. $29 a you're doing one demo to close. $29 a you're doing one demo to close. $29 a month is completely uh unsustainable." month is completely uh unsustainable." month is completely uh unsustainable." And by the end of the season, I think And by the end of the season, I think And by the end of the season, I think they were at 200 or 250 a month uh as they were at 200 or 250 a month uh as they were at 200 or 250 a month uh as the bottom end. So, took them 18 months the bottom end. So, took them 18 months the bottom end. So, took them 18 months to move up market. They had a bunch of to move up market. They had a bunch of to move up market. They had a bunch of missing features. They were trying to uh missing features. They were trying to uh missing features. They were trying to uh cater to architecture firms that had cater to architecture firms that had cater to architecture firms that had like 10 people instead of one. And like 10 people instead of one. And like 10 people instead of one. And that's a whole that's a whole thing. So that's a whole that's a whole thing. So that's a whole that's a whole thing. So moving up market is another way to do moving up market is another way to do moving up market is another way to do this. And the example I have of this is this. And the example I have of this is this. And the example I have of this is Marty at JBboard, which is SAS. If you Marty at JBboard, which is SAS. If you Marty at JBboard, which is SAS. If you wanted to start a job board, wanted to start a job board, wanted to start a job board, that's what JBboard does. And so Marty that's what JBboard does. And so Marty that's what JBboard does. And so Marty says, "At JBboard, we never actually hit says, "At JBboard, we never actually hit says, "At JBboard, we never actually hit a plateau." All right, I told you half a plateau." All right, I told you half a plateau." All right, I told you half of them wouldn't hit a plateau. But our of them wouldn't hit a plateau. But our of them wouldn't hit a plateau. But our analytic software consistently predicted analytic software consistently predicted analytic software consistently predicted a decline in MR due to high churn. After a decline in MR due to high churn. After a decline in MR due to high churn. After analyzing our trial users, we identified analyzing our trial users, we identified analyzing our trial users, we identified two distinct groups. So they had two distinct groups. So they had two distinct groups. So they had solarreneurs wantreneurs drawn by our solarreneurs wantreneurs drawn by our solarreneurs wantreneurs drawn by our affordable pricing and more established affordable pricing and more established affordable pricing and more established businesses that showed initial interest businesses that showed initial interest businesses that showed initial interest but ultimately didn't convert due to but ultimately didn't convert due to but ultimately didn't convert due to missing key features. missing key features. missing key features. So Marty pinpointed and implemented So Marty pinpointed and implemented So Marty pinpointed and implemented these critical features for larger these critical features for larger these critical features for larger customers. They managed to almost double customers. They managed to almost double customers. They managed to almost double their pricing while maintaining their pricing while maintaining their pricing while maintaining conversion rates of their funnel coming conversion rates of their funnel coming conversion rates of their funnel coming in. This allowed us to overcome the in. This allowed us to overcome the in. This allowed us to overcome the projected decline and continue growing projected decline and continue growing projected decline and continue growing even in a high churn market segment. And even in a high churn market segment. And even in a high churn market segment. And JBboard is doing very very well. So he JBboard is doing very very well. So he JBboard is doing very very well. So he did basically the playbook of what I was did basically the playbook of what I was did basically the playbook of what I was saying, which is kind of like at a saying, which is kind of like at a saying, which is kind of like at a certain point you do have to focus on certain point you do have to focus on certain point you do have to focus on that ICP um of the folks who are that ICP um of the folks who are that ICP um of the folks who are sticking around and and uh you know and sticking around and and uh you know and sticking around and and uh you know and paying you a lot. Usually they're the paying you a lot. Usually they're the paying you a lot. Usually they're the least headache anyways. And so that's least headache anyways. And so that's least headache anyways. And so that's his revenue curve. Um again, all mid6 his revenue curve. Um again, all mid6 his revenue curve. Um again, all mid6 and seven figure businesses. Well,

and seven figure businesses. Well, and seven figure businesses. Well, hello. I wanted to break in here and let hello. I wanted to break in here and let hello. I wanted to break in here and let you know that if you're enjoying this you know that if you're enjoying this you know that if you're enjoying this talk, you should consider joining us in talk, you should consider joining us in talk, you should consider joining us in person at our next micro comp event. person at our next micro comp event. person at our next micro comp event. We're just a couple months out from our We're just a couple months out from our We're just a couple months out from our gathering in Istanbul, Turkey. We'll gathering in Istanbul, Turkey. We'll gathering in Istanbul, Turkey. We'll have great talks from Michelle Hansen, have great talks from Michelle Hansen, have great talks from Michelle Hansen, Mark Thomas, and James Moing, as well as Mark Thomas, and James Moing, as well as Mark Thomas, and James Moing, as well as our incredible hallway track, which is our incredible hallway track, which is our incredible hallway track, which is honestly one of the best parts of honestly one of the best parts of honestly one of the best parts of Microcom. And I'll be there MCing and Microcom. And I'll be there MCing and Microcom. And I'll be there MCing and giving a talk as well. You can grab your giving a talk as well. You can grab your giving a talk as well. You can grab your ticket at microcom.com/events. ticket at microcom.com/events. ticket at microcom.com/events. And if Turkey is a bit too far for you, And if Turkey is a bit too far for you, And if Turkey is a bit too far for you, make sure you get on our mailing list to make sure you get on our mailing list to make sure you get on our mailing list to be notified when we announce our next be notified when we announce our next be notified when we announce our next event, which will be in the US in early event, which will be in the US in early event, which will be in the US in early 2026. You can head to microcom.com and 2026. You can head to microcom.com and 2026. You can head to microcom.com and look for anywhere to sign up for that look for anywhere to sign up for that look for anywhere to sign up for that list. Hope to see you there. Now, back list. Hope to see you there. Now, back list. Hope to see you there. Now, back to the talk. Okay, so we're two of to the talk. Okay, so we're two of to the talk. Okay, so we're two of seven. Again, the first four are by far seven. Again, the first four are by far seven. Again, the first four are by far the most common and the by far the most the most common and the by far the most the most common and the by far the most um important for you to know. All right, um important for you to know. All right, um important for you to know. All right, third one is not enough leads. Actually, third one is not enough leads. Actually, third one is not enough leads. Actually, not enough leads. This is the one that not enough leads. This is the one that not enough leads. This is the one that most people jump to first. And I'm going most people jump to first. And I'm going most people jump to first. And I'm going to say the reason I put it third is to say the reason I put it third is to say the reason I put it third is usually it's funnel or churn and not usually it's funnel or churn and not usually it's funnel or churn and not actually not enough leads. Uh but how do actually not enough leads. Uh but how do actually not enough leads. Uh but how do you know when it's not enough leads?

you know when it's not enough leads? you know when it's not enough leads? Well, again going back to the churn rate or to again going back to the churn rate or to the uh the funnel and the churn, if your the uh the funnel and the churn, if your the uh the funnel and the churn, if your churn's okay, if your churn is good or churn's okay, if your churn is good or churn's okay, if your churn is good or great and if your funnel metrics are great and if your funnel metrics are great and if your funnel metrics are within these or yeah, within these within these or yeah, within these within these or yeah, within these numbers and you're still not growing, numbers and you're still not growing, numbers and you're still not growing, well then yeah, you need more leads, well then yeah, you need more leads, well then yeah, you need more leads, right? And I can't just tell you how right? And I can't just tell you how right? And I can't just tell you how many leads do you need because it many leads do you need because it many leads do you need because it depends on your price point, depends on your price point, depends on your price point, right? If you're selling $10,000 a month right? If you're selling $10,000 a month right? If you're selling $10,000 a month software, well, you need a lot fewer software, well, you need a lot fewer software, well, you need a lot fewer leads than if you're selling $10, $50 a leads than if you're selling $10, $50 a leads than if you're selling $10, $50 a month software. So usually again I come month software. So usually again I come month software. So usually again I come back to my rules of thumb. So if you're back to my rules of thumb. So if you're back to my rules of thumb. So if you're within these and you're still not within these and you're still not within these and you're still not growing probably you need to drive more growing probably you need to drive more growing probably you need to drive more traffic, drive more leads. That's why I traffic, drive more leads. That's why I traffic, drive more leads. That's why I include these rules of thumb folks. include these rules of thumb folks. include these rules of thumb folks. Example of this is uh Kieran at flat Example of this is uh Kieran at flat Example of this is uh Kieran at flat plan and this is one that actually plan and this is one that actually plan and this is one that actually these are enterprise sales. This is one these are enterprise sales. This is one these are enterprise sales. This is one that actually did plateau. Look at that. that actually did plateau. Look at that. that actually did plateau. Look at that. Brutal. And that's long. I don't Brutal. And that's long. I don't Brutal. And that's long. I don't remember if that was like nine months. I remember if that was like nine months. I remember if that was like nine months. I mean it's a long time he was plateaued. mean it's a long time he was plateaued. mean it's a long time he was plateaued. So Kieran told me before we joined Tiny So Kieran told me before we joined Tiny So Kieran told me before we joined Tiny Seed, we were heavily reliant on inbound Seed, we were heavily reliant on inbound Seed, we were heavily reliant on inbound direct referrals from one large partner direct referrals from one large partner direct referrals from one large partner and some SEO. The Tiny Seed marketing and some SEO. The Tiny Seed marketing and some SEO. The Tiny Seed marketing playbook call did a great job of playbook call did a great job of playbook call did a great job of breaking down the channels we had to breaking down the channels we had to breaking down the channels we had to experiment with following the experiment with following the experiment with following the three-factor framework of speed, cost, three-factor framework of speed, cost, three-factor framework of speed, cost, and scalability. We found that fast the and scalability. We found that fast the and scalability. We found that fast the fast uh uh marketing approaches just fast uh uh marketing approaches just fast uh uh marketing approaches just didn't work for us, right? So cold didn't work for us, right? So cold didn't work for us, right? So cold outreach is relatively fast. Paper outreach is relatively fast. Paper outreach is relatively fast. Paper clicks relatively fast. Uh three-factor clicks relatively fast. Uh three-factor clicks relatively fast. Uh three-factor framework again it's in this playbook.

framework again it's in this playbook. framework again it's in this playbook. That's why I wrote it in the chapter. That's why I wrote it in the chapter. That's why I wrote it in the chapter. It's um just a way to decision make It's um just a way to decision make It's um just a way to decision make around what marketing approaches you around what marketing approaches you around what marketing approaches you should try. So Kieran said, "I accepted should try. So Kieran said, "I accepted should try. So Kieran said, "I accepted it' be a slog." And I love that it' be a slog." And I love that it' be a slog." And I love that sentence. I want if entrepreneurs had sentence. I want if entrepreneurs had sentence. I want if entrepreneurs had money, we would print that would be the money, we would print that would be the money, we would print that would be the the thing we would print on it. I the thing we would print on it. I the thing we would print on it. I accepted it would be a slog. He doubled accepted it would be a slog. He doubled accepted it would be a slog. He doubled down on slow and scalable. It was down on slow and scalable. It was down on slow and scalable. It was partnerships, organic search, PBC on partnerships, organic search, PBC on partnerships, organic search, PBC on LinkedIn, posting daily on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, posting daily on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, posting daily on LinkedIn, podcast, and very recently uh very podcast, and very recently uh very podcast, and very recently uh very recently moving into events. Each of recently moving into events. Each of recently moving into events. Each of these is a genuine slog and many of them these is a genuine slog and many of them these is a genuine slog and many of them you need to really hold your nerve on, you need to really hold your nerve on, you need to really hold your nerve on, especially if it's muddy in terms of especially if it's muddy in terms of especially if it's muddy in terms of tracking. I'm still a bottleneck, which tracking. I'm still a bottleneck, which tracking. I'm still a bottleneck, which is why I'm trying to hire a salesperson. is why I'm trying to hire a salesperson. is why I'm trying to hire a salesperson. And so this was a case where the funnel And so this was a case where the funnel And so this was a case where the funnel metrics were amazing. Their retention metrics were amazing. Their retention metrics were amazing. Their retention was amazing. They closed a lot of deals was amazing. They closed a lot of deals was amazing. They closed a lot of deals and they just needed more leads. And so and they just needed more leads. And so and they just needed more leads. And so that's what they did. They expanded. that's what they did. They expanded. that's what they did. They expanded. They're doing a bunch of slogging. That They're doing a bunch of slogging. That They're doing a bunch of slogging. That is almost the definition of SAS, right? is almost the definition of SAS, right? is almost the definition of SAS, right? Okay. So the fourth of uh as I said, you Okay. So the fourth of uh as I said, you Okay. So the fourth of uh as I said, you know, the fourth of the the most common know, the fourth of the the most common know, the fourth of the the most common is competition. This is the hardest one is competition. This is the hardest one is competition. This is the hardest one to say. What does it look like? I don't to say. What does it look like? I don't to say. What does it look like? I don't have numbers. I know what it feels like have numbers. I know what it feels like have numbers. I know what it feels like to have competition eating your lunch.

to have competition eating your lunch. to have competition eating your lunch. And it's when you keep hearing, well, we And it's when you keep hearing, well, we And it's when you keep hearing, well, we went with HubSpot because they have a went with HubSpot because they have a went with HubSpot because they have a CRM. Well, we went with Mailchimp CRM. Well, we went with Mailchimp CRM. Well, we went with Mailchimp because they're 30% cheaper than you because they're 30% cheaper than you because they're 30% cheaper than you are. We went with infusionoft said no are. We went with infusionoft said no are. We went with infusionoft said no one ever. one ever. one ever. But it that's what it feels like. It But it that's what it feels like. It But it that's what it feels like. It feels like when you just keep hearing feels like when you just keep hearing feels like when you just keep hearing over and over and it's either as you're over and over and it's either as you're over and over and it's either as you're getting started where you're getting getting started where you're getting getting started where you're getting beat on deals or you may have some beat on deals or you may have some beat on deals or you may have some semblance of product market fit. So semblance of product market fit. So semblance of product market fit. So product market fit is a is a moving product market fit is a is a moving product market fit is a is a moving target and you can lose it. You can have target and you can lose it. You can have target and you can lose it. You can have it and lose it. There's a tiny seed it and lose it. There's a tiny seed it and lose it. There's a tiny seed company is growing, doing really well. company is growing, doing really well. company is growing, doing really well. And then a big open-source And then a big open-source And then a big open-source competitor came into the space and is competitor came into the space and is competitor came into the space and is completely free and it started just completely free and it started just completely free and it started just pulling like crazy from from his leads pulling like crazy from from his leads pulling like crazy from from his leads and even people were churning and going and even people were churning and going and even people were churning and going over and using this tool that was about over and using this tool that was about over and using this tool that was about as good. And so competition that's and as good. And so competition that's and as good. And so competition that's and he instantly knew he said I feel like he instantly knew he said I feel like he instantly knew he said I feel like I'm losing product market fit because I'm losing product market fit because I'm losing product market fit because again product market fit. So his product again product market fit. So his product again product market fit. So his product was the same but the market had shifted was the same but the market had shifted was the same but the market had shifted under his feet. That's why it's called under his feet. That's why it's called under his feet. That's why it's called product market fit. Most of us don't product market fit. Most of us don't product market fit. Most of us don't think about that. So, what does it look think about that. So, what does it look think about that. So, what does it look like? There's a little bit of an like? There's a little bit of an like? There's a little bit of an intuition, but you kind of start feeling intuition, but you kind of start feeling intuition, but you kind of start feeling it like, why is this company growing so it like, why is this company growing so it like, why is this company growing so much faster? Why am I losing these deals much faster? Why am I losing these deals much faster? Why am I losing these deals to these other competitors? All right, to these other competitors? All right, to these other competitors? All right, so if you feel like you're losing it to so if you feel like you're losing it to so if you feel like you're losing it to competition, how do you figure this out?

competition, how do you figure this out? competition, how do you figure this out? Well, this one's tough, right? It kind Well, this one's tough, right? It kind Well, this one's tough, right? It kind of depends. Um, sometimes it is. If it's of depends. Um, sometimes it is. If it's of depends. Um, sometimes it is. If it's an open source competitor, it's like, an open source competitor, it's like, an open source competitor, it's like, well, going back to our talk yesterday well, going back to our talk yesterday well, going back to our talk yesterday from Anthony about positioning, there from Anthony about positioning, there from Anthony about positioning, there was a you you know, how are you was a you you know, how are you was a you you know, how are you different? How do you become different different? How do you become different different? How do you become different than this um than this open source than this um than this open source than this um than this open source competitor, right? How do you position competitor, right? How do you position competitor, right? How do you position yourself in a way that you have a yourself in a way that you have a yourself in a way that you have a differentiator and we could that talk differentiator and we could that talk differentiator and we could that talk yesterday was just a amazing, you know, yesterday was just a amazing, you know, yesterday was just a amazing, you know, kind of textbook example of how to kind of textbook example of how to kind of textbook example of how to figure this kind of thing out. The figure this kind of thing out. The figure this kind of thing out. The shitty part is if you're a SAS founder shitty part is if you're a SAS founder shitty part is if you're a SAS founder and you bootstrap and you finally make and you bootstrap and you finally make and you bootstrap and you finally make it and you're doing half a million AR, it and you're doing half a million AR, it and you're doing half a million AR, you're doing a million, you're doing you're doing a million, you're doing you're doing a million, you're doing 1.5, everything's working, it can just 1.5, everything's working, it can just 1.5, everything's working, it can just stop working if this happens. Like stop working if this happens. Like stop working if this happens. Like competition is brutal. And whether it's competition is brutal. And whether it's competition is brutal. And whether it's a funded competitor who raises so much a funded competitor who raises so much a funded competitor who raises so much money that they can basically lose money money that they can basically lose money money that they can basically lose money and undercut half undercut your pricing and undercut half undercut your pricing and undercut half undercut your pricing by half and they can just lose money for by half and they can just lose money for by half and they can just lose money for years. It sucks, but it happens, right? years. It sucks, but it happens, right? years. It sucks, but it happens, right? Or the open source competitor comes out Or the open source competitor comes out Or the open source competitor comes out or what have you. This is a a very um or what have you. This is a a very um or what have you. This is a a very um challenging part of being an challenging part of being an challenging part of being an entrepreneur, right? And so at that entrepreneur, right? And so at that entrepreneur, right? And so at that point, this is where you admit what's point, this is where you admit what's point, this is where you admit what's happening and you go to let's say happening and you go to let's say happening and you go to let's say Anony's talk or you look at April Anony's talk or you look at April Anony's talk or you look at April Dunford stuff where you think how do I Dunford stuff where you think how do I Dunford stuff where you think how do I now differentiate? How do I dig myself now differentiate? How do I dig myself now differentiate? How do I dig myself out? There's a little bit of a restart out? There's a little bit of a restart out? There's a little bit of a restart of like I got to reenter this market of like I got to reenter this market of like I got to reenter this market thinking about it in a new way if you thinking about it in a new way if you thinking about it in a new way if you still have the energy. So that's the still have the energy. So that's the still have the energy. So that's the kind of depends the example I have here kind of depends the example I have here kind of depends the example I have here is user list Jane and Benedict email is user list Jane and Benedict email is user list Jane and Benedict email marketing automation for SAS growth and marketing automation for SAS growth and marketing automation for SAS growth and that is their revenue you can see they that is their revenue you can see they that is their revenue you can see they had a plateau there pretty hard had a plateau there pretty hard had a plateau there pretty hard noticeable and then they broke through

noticeable and then they broke through noticeable and then they broke through it and I asked uh Benedict you know what it and I asked uh Benedict you know what it and I asked uh Benedict you know what happened and he said I think that happened and he said I think that happened and he said I think that building and launching the visual building and launching the visual building and launching the visual workflows helped us break through that workflows helped us break through that workflows helped us break through that 2023 plateau since we launched that 2023 plateau since we launched that 2023 plateau since we launched that feature we're growing again my hunch is feature we're growing again my hunch is feature we're growing again my hunch is that it is such a table stakes feature that it is such a table stakes feature that it is such a table stakes feature at this point that not having it was at this point that not having it was at this point that not having it was causing people to dismiss user list causing people to dismiss user list causing people to dismiss user list right way, even though our linear right way, even though our linear right way, even though our linear campaigns were pretty much powerful and campaigns were pretty much powerful and campaigns were pretty much powerful and covered most of the use cases. covered most of the use cases. covered most of the use cases. Oh, I want to go back. Um, and here's Oh, I want to go back. Um, and here's Oh, I want to go back. Um, and here's the interesting thing. You know, user the interesting thing. You know, user the interesting thing. You know, user list has been around now for I would list has been around now for I would list has been around now for I would guess seven years, six or seven years. guess seven years, six or seven years. guess seven years, six or seven years. And I bet when they first launched, you And I bet when they first launched, you And I bet when they first launched, you didn't need a visual workflow builder to didn't need a visual workflow builder to didn't need a visual workflow builder to have decent product market fit to have have decent product market fit to have have decent product market fit to have people coming and signing up and using people coming and signing up and using people coming and signing up and using it. But over time, the market shifts and it. But over time, the market shifts and it. But over time, the market shifts and eventually you plateau and you got to eventually you plateau and you got to eventually you plateau and you got to build it. So, am I telling a room of build it. So, am I telling a room of build it. So, am I telling a room of developers to go build features? No, not developers to go build features? No, not developers to go build features? No, not really. Like I'm I don't want to give really. Like I'm I don't want to give really. Like I'm I don't want to give you permission to just randomly build you permission to just randomly build you permission to just randomly build features, but sometimes sometimes, you features, but sometimes sometimes, you features, but sometimes sometimes, you know, talk to your customers first, too, know, talk to your customers first, too, know, talk to your customers first, too, before doing that. All right, so those before doing that. All right, so those before doing that. All right, so those are the four that I consider the most are the four that I consider the most are the four that I consider the most common by far. common by far. common by far. Now, we're going to go to three more. Now, we're going to go to three more. Now, we're going to go to three more. Five, six, seven. Yeah, three more. So, Five, six, seven. Yeah, three more. So, Five, six, seven. Yeah, three more. So, number five is one that I hear way too number five is one that I hear way too number five is one that I hear way too much. And this one's almost uh it's much. And this one's almost uh it's much. And this one's almost uh it's very, very rare that you have literally very, very rare that you have literally very, very rare that you have literally tapped your market out. That's usually tapped your market out. That's usually tapped your market out. That's usually That's usually an excuse to That's usually an excuse to That's usually an excuse to not do the hard things and do more not do the hard things and do more not do the hard things and do more marketing and do more sales and figure marketing and do more sales and figure marketing and do more sales and figure out better product market fit. And out better product market fit. And out better product market fit. And usually it's like tapped out the market usually it's like tapped out the market usually it's like tapped out the market so I'm going to launch a second product.

so I'm going to launch a second product. so I'm going to launch a second product. This is so common. I'm going to This is so common. I'm going to This is so common. I'm going to translate my app into Spanish to expand translate my app into Spanish to expand translate my app into Spanish to expand the market. So what does this look like? I've actually seen this. Like your I've actually seen this. Like your market must be so tiny if you've tapped market must be so tiny if you've tapped market must be so tiny if you've tapped it out. Um, I've talked about Jason and it out. Um, I've talked about Jason and it out. Um, I've talked about Jason and JD who have Senior Place. Uh, they're a JD who have Senior Place. Uh, they're a JD who have Senior Place. Uh, they're a tiny C company and their market is is tiny C company and their market is is tiny C company and their market is is small. It's singledigit thousands number small. It's singledigit thousands number small. It's singledigit thousands number of customers, right? And yet they keep of customers, right? And yet they keep of customers, right? And yet they keep growing and they're doing really well. growing and they're doing really well. growing and they're doing really well. Singledigit thousand thousands of Singledigit thousand thousands of Singledigit thousand thousands of customers. Think about that. Is it customers. Think about that. Is it customers. Think about that. Is it possible to tap a market out? Yeah. And possible to tap a market out? Yeah. And possible to tap a market out? Yeah. And if I were to truly tap it out and know if I were to truly tap it out and know if I were to truly tap it out and know that I tapped it out and I got five that I tapped it out and I got five that I tapped it out and I got five people to corroborate that information people to corroborate that information people to corroborate that information with me and it wasn't just a founder gut with me and it wasn't just a founder gut with me and it wasn't just a founder gut thing, it's probably because I'm in a thing, it's probably because I'm in a thing, it's probably because I'm in a tight vertical and I either need to go tight vertical and I either need to go tight vertical and I either need to go more horizontal or I need to add more horizontal or I need to add more horizontal or I need to add verticals. So if I'm catering to verticals. So if I'm catering to verticals. So if I'm catering to realtors right now, you know, what's realtors right now, you know, what's realtors right now, you know, what's what's next? Is it real estate what's next? Is it real estate what's next? Is it real estate attorneys? Is it mortgage brokers? Is attorneys? Is it mortgage brokers? Is attorneys? Is it mortgage brokers? Is it, you know, there's something next to it, you know, there's something next to it, you know, there's something next to it? You can add verticals. But be it? You can add verticals. But be it? You can add verticals. But be careful with this. This is way less careful with this. This is way less careful with this. This is way less common than people think.

common than people think. common than people think. Expand vertically or horizontally. Expand vertically or horizontally. Expand vertically or horizontally. Great. I had a whole slide and I just Great. I had a whole slide and I just Great. I had a whole slide and I just talked over it. All right. So, postpone talked over it. All right. So, postpone talked over it. All right. So, postpone is the example. Postpone.app. is the example. Postpone.app. is the example. Postpone.app. When Grant came, uh, he applied to tiny When Grant came, uh, he applied to tiny When Grant came, uh, he applied to tiny seed and it was a Reddit postuler. seed and it was a Reddit postuler. seed and it was a Reddit postuler. And we said, "We like you, Grant. You're And we said, "We like you, Grant. You're And we said, "We like you, Grant. You're smart. We want to make a bet on you. A smart. We want to make a bet on you. A smart. We want to make a bet on you. A Reddit posteduler is not a seven or Reddit posteduler is not a seven or Reddit posteduler is not a seven or eight figure business. That's what we eight figure business. That's what we eight figure business. That's what we want to invest in." And he said, "I'm want to invest in." And he said, "I'm want to invest in." And he said, "I'm going to add I'm already on on on board going to add I'm already on on on board going to add I'm already on on on board with that to add something aside from with that to add something aside from with that to add something aside from Reddit." Right? So, expand. And since Reddit." Right? So, expand. And since Reddit." Right? So, expand. And since then he's added like six, seven, eight. then he's added like six, seven, eight. then he's added like six, seven, eight. So he's added blue sky, Instagram So he's added blue sky, Instagram So he's added blue sky, Instagram threads, Facebook, whatever. He's added threads, Facebook, whatever. He's added threads, Facebook, whatever. He's added a ton. And that was that was a thing of a ton. And that was that was a thing of a ton. And that was that was a thing of going from a single vertical before he going from a single vertical before he going from a single vertical before he plateaued to be honest or he had a light plateaued to be honest or he had a light plateaued to be honest or he had a light plateau and then adding the verticals plateau and then adding the verticals plateau and then adding the verticals and that that got him up. So this is and that that got him up. So this is and that that got him up. So this is Grant's graph and this is a plateau I'm Grant's graph and this is a plateau I'm Grant's graph and this is a plateau I'm talking about which was about 6 months talking about which was about 6 months talking about which was about 6 months or more. Now there's a second plateau up or more. Now there's a second plateau up or more. Now there's a second plateau up in the upper right. It's a whole other in the upper right. It's a whole other in the upper right. It's a whole other story. And I asked Grant, I said, "Do story. And I asked Grant, I said, "Do story. And I asked Grant, I said, "Do you want me to like cut off the graph?" you want me to like cut off the graph?" you want me to like cut off the graph?" And he said, "No, it's fine. Show the And he said, "No, it's fine. Show the And he said, "No, it's fine. Show the whole thing." and then gave me the cry whole thing." and then gave me the cry whole thing." and then gave me the cry face emoji because he's currently I was face emoji because he's currently I was face emoji because he's currently I was like I'm sorry dude he's currently in a like I'm sorry dude he's currently in a like I'm sorry dude he's currently in a you know in a plateau for other for you know in a plateau for other for you know in a plateau for other for other reasons for not this but doing other reasons for not this but doing other reasons for not this but doing this expanding the verticals um allowed this expanding the verticals um allowed this expanding the verticals um allowed him to keep growing right he would have him to keep growing right he would have him to keep growing right he would have plateaued uh well that's like a year and plateaued uh well that's like a year and plateaued uh well that's like a year and a half two years ago now so to quote a half two years ago now so to quote a half two years ago now so to quote Grant Grant says I attribute breaking Grant Grant says I attribute breaking Grant Grant says I attribute breaking through the plateau to a couple reasons through the plateau to a couple reasons through the plateau to a couple reasons one raising prices by 25% hooray micro one raising prices by 25% hooray micro one raising prices by 25% hooray micro comp and number two focusing on comp and number two focusing on comp and number two focusing on supporting new verticals right new supporting new verticals right new supporting new verticals right new social platform forms which both social platform forms which both social platform forms which both increase signups and expansion revenue.

increase signups and expansion revenue. increase signups and expansion revenue. User would users would cancel their sub User would users would cancel their sub User would users would cancel their sub subscriptions to other scheduling apps subscriptions to other scheduling apps subscriptions to other scheduling apps to bring their non-reddit accounts to to bring their non-reddit accounts to to bring their non-reddit accounts to postpone and manage all of their social postpone and manage all of their social postpone and manage all of their social media under one roof. media under one roof. media under one roof. Number six, Number six, Number six, this one's a trip. Strong product market this one's a trip. Strong product market this one's a trip. Strong product market fit with one segment of a market. It looks like what does it look like? It It looks like what does it look like? It looks like it's completely opaque and looks like it's completely opaque and looks like it's completely opaque and non-obvious if you are not digging into non-obvious if you are not digging into non-obvious if you are not digging into who your best customers are either who your best customers are either who your best customers are either through segmenting through metrics or through segmenting through metrics or through segmenting through metrics or having conversations. This is a matter having conversations. This is a matter having conversations. This is a matter of all right I have all these leads of all right I have all these leads of all right I have all these leads coming in. I have hundreds of customers coming in. I have hundreds of customers coming in. I have hundreds of customers maybe thousands depending on price maybe thousands depending on price maybe thousands depending on price point. And if you look at it's like if point. And if you look at it's like if point. And if you look at it's like if you look at an Amazon rating of of three you look at an Amazon rating of of three you look at an Amazon rating of of three stars stars stars that could have a thousand fivestar and that could have a thousand fivestar and that could have a thousand fivestar and a thousand one-star reviews, right? a thousand one-star reviews, right? a thousand one-star reviews, right? Three stars actually obfiscates a bunch Three stars actually obfiscates a bunch Three stars actually obfiscates a bunch of information that's really important. of information that's really important. of information that's really important. And it's not until you dig into the And it's not until you dig into the And it's not until you dig into the fives and the ones and realize why fives and the ones and realize why fives and the ones and realize why people are giving it fives and ones.

people are giving it fives and ones. people are giving it fives and ones. This is similar. If you're just looking This is similar. If you're just looking This is similar. If you're just looking at your customer base as your churn, as at your customer base as your churn, as at your customer base as your churn, as your average revenue per account, as your average revenue per account, as your average revenue per account, as your LTV, if you're just looking about your LTV, if you're just looking about your LTV, if you're just looking about that as an average across all your that as an average across all your that as an average across all your customers, you're looking at a customers, you're looking at a customers, you're looking at a three-star review. It's once you three-star review. It's once you three-star review. It's once you segment, this is something I tell in segment, this is something I tell in segment, this is something I tell in every tiny C playbook. I think I said every tiny C playbook. I think I said every tiny C playbook. I think I said this SAS playbook, too. Segment your this SAS playbook, too. Segment your this SAS playbook, too. Segment your customers either by pick pick a thing. customers either by pick pick a thing. customers either by pick pick a thing. Do all the things. Get in get in a Do all the things. Get in get in a Do all the things. Get in get in a spreadsheet. Segment it by industry, spreadsheet. Segment it by industry, spreadsheet. Segment it by industry, segment it by lead source, segment it by segment it by lead source, segment it by segment it by lead source, segment it by price point that they pay you and look price point that they pay you and look price point that they pay you and look at these metrics because that's when you at these metrics because that's when you at these metrics because that's when you start to see five stars and one stars. start to see five stars and one stars. start to see five stars and one stars. And you'll start to see a group who is And you'll start to see a group who is And you'll start to see a group who is your what's the opposite of an ICP? NIC your what's the opposite of an ICP? NIC your what's the opposite of an ICP? NIC non ideal customer profile. I don't non ideal customer profile. I don't non ideal customer profile. I don't know. I just coined a really bad know. I just coined a really bad know. I just coined a really bad acronym. There's the ideal customer acronym. There's the ideal customer acronym. There's the ideal customer profile and the worst the WCP the worst profile and the worst the WCP the worst profile and the worst the WCP the worst customer profile. you will see this, customer profile. you will see this, customer profile. you will see this, right? So, what it looks like on the right? So, what it looks like on the right? So, what it looks like on the surface is I don't know, I'm super surface is I don't know, I'm super surface is I don't know, I'm super confused, but if you dig into the confused, but if you dig into the confused, but if you dig into the numbers, what it looks like is numbers, what it looks like is numbers, what it looks like is really obvious once you figure out what really obvious once you figure out what really obvious once you figure out what the ICP is, right? And the ICP is, right? And the ICP is, right? And this I can't believe I put this slide in this I can't believe I put this slide in this I can't believe I put this slide in here. I now regret it. It's my next here. I now regret it. It's my next here. I now regret it. It's my next slide. Don't quote me on this. Don't slide. Don't quote me on this. Don't slide. Don't quote me on this. Don't take a photo of this. Um, take a photo of this. Um, take a photo of this. Um, sometimes, uh, it actually is to build sometimes, uh, it actually is to build sometimes, uh, it actually is to build features. Um, that's not the only features. Um, that's not the only features. Um, that's not the only solution to this one realistically, but solution to this one realistically, but solution to this one realistically, but if you have product market fit with one if you have product market fit with one if you have product market fit with one segment and not with another segment, segment and not with another segment, segment and not with another segment, it's either to build features to find it's either to build features to find it's either to build features to find product market fit with another segment product market fit with another segment product market fit with another segment or it's to do the velvet rope thing that or it's to do the velvet rope thing that or it's to do the velvet rope thing that Jordan did. And it's just to not serve

Jordan did. And it's just to not serve Jordan did. And it's just to not serve your not ideal customer profile assuming your not ideal customer profile assuming your not ideal customer profile assuming the ideal customer profile is big enough the ideal customer profile is big enough the ideal customer profile is big enough and there's enough people you know I and there's enough people you know I and there's enough people you know I don't look at TAM I look at term which don't look at TAM I look at term which don't look at TAM I look at term which is total reachable market how much in a is total reachable market how much in a is total reachable market how much in a given month how many people are given month how many people are given month how many people are switching from other tools or are new switching from other tools or are new switching from other tools or are new and looking for your tools and you can and looking for your tools and you can and looking for your tools and you can have a TAM of a billion dollars but if have a TAM of a billion dollars but if have a TAM of a billion dollars but if there's only five people a month five there's only five people a month five there's only five people a month five companies a month I call that that the companies a month I call that that the companies a month I call that that the five would be the term right um five five would be the term right um five five would be the term right um five people a month looking for a tool then people a month looking for a tool then people a month looking for a tool then you're not going to grow very quickly you're not going to grow very quickly you're not going to grow very quickly right so focusing on the folks who right so focusing on the folks who right so focusing on the folks who actually need your tool whether it's to actually need your tool whether it's to actually need your tool whether it's to build features or whether it's to turn build features or whether it's to turn build features or whether it's to turn others away is the real solution example others away is the real solution example others away is the real solution example of this is monolith monolith forensics of this is monolith monolith forensics of this is monolith monolith forensics case management for digital forensics so case management for digital forensics so case management for digital forensics so Matt Danner says I've been fortunate Matt Danner says I've been fortunate Matt Danner says I've been fortunate that I haven't had a real plateau so that I haven't had a real plateau so that I haven't had a real plateau so he's one of the three but I've noticed he's one of the three but I've noticed he's one of the three but I've noticed that we have at least three segments in that we have at least three segments in that we have at least three segments in our market where our product market fit our market where our product market fit our market where our product market fit is at varying levels so he did the is at varying levels so he did the is at varying levels so he did the exercise I I recommend so one segment exercise I I recommend so one segment exercise I I recommend so one segment we're going to call segment A has high we're going to call segment A has high we're going to call segment A has high product market fit but another segment product market fit but another segment product market fit but another segment segment B has lower product market fit segment B has lower product market fit segment B has lower product market fit So segment A if I recall is uh So segment A if I recall is uh So segment A if I recall is uh governments and like government agencies governments and like government agencies governments and like government agencies and uh law enforcement and segment B is and uh law enforcement and segment B is and uh law enforcement and segment B is like these private digital forensics like these private digital forensics like these private digital forensics labs. I didn't put them in there because labs. I didn't put them in there because labs. I didn't put them in there because it made it all complicated but you get it made it all complicated but you get it made it all complicated but you get the idea. It's there's no secret of who the idea. It's there's no secret of who the idea. It's there's no secret of who they are. But he said I have high they are. But he said I have high they are. But he said I have high product market fit with segment A. So if product market fit with segment A. So if product market fit with segment A. So if I stratify our growth with segments in I stratify our growth with segments in I stratify our growth with segments in mind, we see consistent plateaus with mind, we see consistent plateaus with mind, we see consistent plateaus with that segment B. I think segment B growth that segment B. I think segment B growth that segment B. I think segment B growth suffers from some missing case and suffers from some missing case and suffers from some missing case and analysis management features. writing analysis management features. writing analysis management features. writing code in monolith uh which we were code in monolith uh which we were code in monolith uh which we were working on. We also market heavily to

working on. We also market heavily to working on. We also market heavily to segment A and the segment B funnel segment A and the segment B funnel segment A and the segment B funnel suffers from this over time will close suffers from this over time will close suffers from this over time will close both the marketing and product market both the marketing and product market both the marketing and product market gaps and I think we'll see a lot more gaps and I think we'll see a lot more gaps and I think we'll see a lot more growth in segment B. So again he's growth in segment B. So again he's growth in segment B. So again he's focusing on uh expanding into segment B focusing on uh expanding into segment B focusing on uh expanding into segment B rather than just turning them away. rather than just turning them away. rather than just turning them away. Depends on your space. Obviously digital Depends on your space. Obviously digital Depends on your space. Obviously digital forensics is a it's a market but it's forensics is a it's a market but it's forensics is a it's a market but it's not as big as you know CRM or ESPs. So not as big as you know CRM or ESPs. So not as big as you know CRM or ESPs. So he's saying I got to I got to dive into he's saying I got to I got to dive into he's saying I got to I got to dive into it. it. it. And the last one, I debated a little bit And the last one, I debated a little bit And the last one, I debated a little bit whether to include this, but when I whether to include this, but when I whether to include this, but when I first started compiling this, so I I first started compiling this, so I I first started compiling this, so I I don't know if I said at the beginning, don't know if I said at the beginning, don't know if I said at the beginning, but three years is what it took me to but three years is what it took me to but three years is what it took me to nail all these plateaus down. The the nail all these plateaus down. The the nail all these plateaus down. The the Google doc, I look back at the first Google doc, I look back at the first Google doc, I look back at the first entry I made, and it was from 3 years entry I made, and it was from 3 years entry I made, and it was from 3 years prior to 24. So it was like 2021 when I prior to 24. So it was like 2021 when I prior to 24. So it was like 2021 when I started putting it in. And what was started putting it in. And what was started putting it in. And what was happening three years prior to 2021? happening three years prior to 2021? happening three years prior to 2021? There were some one-time events that There were some one-time events that There were some one-time events that were rocking some SAS. And so I had to were rocking some SAS. And so I had to were rocking some SAS. And so I had to had to include it. So onetime events can had to include it. So onetime events can had to include it. So onetime events can include things like, you know, you piss include things like, you know, you piss include things like, you know, you piss off your customer base. And I don't I off your customer base. And I don't I off your customer base. And I don't I don't call it this, but I've heard some don't call it this, but I've heard some don't call it this, but I've heard some people call it pulling an intercom, people call it pulling an intercom, people call it pulling an intercom, which I thought was funny. It's which I thought was funny. It's which I thought was funny. It's basically raising your, you know, like basically raising your, you know, like basically raising your, you know, like raising your prices four times or raising your prices four times or raising your prices four times or whatever. Um, not communicating that whatever. Um, not communicating that whatever. Um, not communicating that very well, which a company that I once very well, which a company that I once very well, which a company that I once owned and sold may have done that after owned and sold may have done that after owned and sold may have done that after I left. I can neither confirm nor deny, I left. I can neither confirm nor deny, I left. I can neither confirm nor deny, but angry on your customer base is one but angry on your customer base is one but angry on your customer base is one thing, right, where people will start thing, right, where people will start thing, right, where people will start turning uh and you can see a plateau or turning uh and you can see a plateau or turning uh and you can see a plateau or you just get such negative press that you just get such negative press that you just get such negative press that that people there's kind of a rumble in that people there's kind of a rumble in that people there's kind of a rumble in the rumble in the market. You can have a the rumble in the market. You can have a the rumble in the market. You can have a major marketing setback. This is where, major marketing setback. This is where, major marketing setback. This is where, man, 80% of our leads come from SEO and man, 80% of our leads come from SEO and man, 80% of our leads come from SEO and guess what Google did last week. You guess what Google did last week. You guess what Google did last week. You know, they just smacked you and so know, they just smacked you and so know, they just smacked you and so suddenly boom, you're plateaued, right?

suddenly boom, you're plateaued, right? suddenly boom, you're plateaued, right? And then a black swan event. Excuse me. And then a black swan event. Excuse me. And then a black swan event. Excuse me. Like COVID, which is the one I was Like COVID, which is the one I was Like COVID, which is the one I was thinking of when I wrote this. So, I thinking of when I wrote this. So, I thinking of when I wrote this. So, I don't actually have an example for this don't actually have an example for this don't actually have an example for this one. Um, I mean, I just gave you three one. Um, I mean, I just gave you three one. Um, I mean, I just gave you three examples, but I don't have a, you know, examples, but I don't have a, you know, examples, but I don't have a, you know, example. I in tiny seed when we were example. I in tiny seed when we were example. I in tiny seed when we were watching folks apply there were some watching folks apply there were some watching folks apply there were some folks that were doubling every month and folks that were doubling every month and folks that were doubling every month and some folks that were basically going to some folks that were basically going to some folks that were basically going to zero during co. So the way you get zero during co. So the way you get zero during co. So the way you get around this is you you basically around this is you you basically around this is you you basically apologize if you make your customer base apologize if you make your customer base apologize if you make your customer base mad you try to fix it you write it out. mad you try to fix it you write it out. mad you try to fix it you write it out. Um yeah that's number seven. So what's Um yeah that's number seven. So what's Um yeah that's number seven. So what's interesting is there is an eighth with interesting is there is an eighth with interesting is there is an eighth with an asterisk that I built slides for and an asterisk that I built slides for and an asterisk that I built slides for and I I'll just mention it. I was going to I I'll just mention it. I was going to I I'll just mention it. I was going to wait for Q&A but you know we got 10 wait for Q&A but you know we got 10 wait for Q&A but you know we got 10 minutes. Um the eighth one that I wasn't minutes. Um the eighth one that I wasn't minutes. Um the eighth one that I wasn't aware I was not on my radar to be honest aware I was not on my radar to be honest aware I was not on my radar to be honest uh but it has an asterisk is seasonality uh but it has an asterisk is seasonality uh but it has an asterisk is seasonality and this is Jade from Glitch Secure said and this is Jade from Glitch Secure said and this is Jade from Glitch Secure said we have a seasonal product and what we we have a seasonal product and what we we have a seasonal product and what we notice is that we plateau and I forget notice is that we plateau and I forget notice is that we plateau and I forget if it was during the summer or something if it was during the summer or something if it was during the summer or something but they plateau every year at a certain but they plateau every year at a certain but they plateau every year at a certain time of year. That's not the plateaus time of year. That's not the plateaus time of year. That's not the plateaus I'm talking about. I don't know that I'm talking about. I don't know that I'm talking about. I don't know that there's a way to fix that, which is why there's a way to fix that, which is why there's a way to fix that, which is why I didn't include it in here, but I I didn't include it in here, but I I didn't include it in here, but I wanted it's an consider it an honorable wanted it's an consider it an honorable wanted it's an consider it an honorable mention. So, in conclusion, thank you mention. So, in conclusion, thank you mention. So, in conclusion, thank you for coming to my TED talk. No, in for coming to my TED talk. No, in for coming to my TED talk. No, in conclusion, 1, two, three, and four are conclusion, 1, two, three, and four are conclusion, 1, two, three, and four are what I see as uh far more common than what I see as uh far more common than what I see as uh far more common than the the bottom three, but I wanted to the the bottom three, but I wanted to the the bottom three, but I wanted to include them all. Yeah. And serious, if include them all. Yeah. And serious, if include them all. Yeah. And serious, if someone has encountered a plateau, someone has encountered a plateau, someone has encountered a plateau, whether you've gotten through it or not, whether you've gotten through it or not, whether you've gotten through it or not, that wasn't on this list, please ping me that wasn't on this list, please ping me that wasn't on this list, please ping me because I do want to kind of have a as because I do want to kind of have a as because I do want to kind of have a as much of a complete list before this

much of a complete list before this much of a complete list before this winds up in a book somewhere. So that's winds up in a book somewhere. So that's winds up in a book somewhere. So that's it for me. Thank you so much for having it for me. Thank you so much for having it for me. Thank you so much for having me. If you enjoyed that talk, I hope me. If you enjoyed that talk, I hope me. If you enjoyed that talk, I hope you'll join us at our next MicroM event. you'll join us at our next MicroM event. you'll join us at our next MicroM event. Getting in the room with two or 300 Getting in the room with two or 300 Getting in the room with two or 300 like-minded SAS founders for a few days like-minded SAS founders for a few days like-minded SAS founders for a few days is an incredible experience. If you want is an incredible experience. If you want is an incredible experience. If you want to learn more or get notified when our to learn more or get notified when our to learn more or get notified when our next event is announced, head to next event is announced, head to next event is announced, head to microcom.com/events. microcom.com/events. microcom.com/events. If you're on the fence and want to check If you're on the fence and want to check If you're on the fence and want to check out another talk to see if it's the out another talk to see if it's the out another talk to see if it's the right vibe, watch this next talk that right vibe, watch this next talk that right vibe, watch this next talk that Peldy Gzone gave from the Microcom stage Peldy Gzone gave from the Microcom stage Peldy Gzone gave from the Microcom stage in Drovnik last year. In it, he details in Drovnik last year. In it, he details in Drovnik last year. In it, he details his sevenstep journey from maker to his sevenstep journey from maker to his sevenstep journey from maker to entrepreneur as he grew Balsamic to $6.6 entrepreneur as he grew Balsamic to $6.6 entrepreneur as he grew Balsamic to $6.6 million per year. Thanks for watching. million per year. Thanks for watching. million per year. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.