Between Two Plants We Stole Off of Someones Patio: Andy Martin - MicroConf Remote

[Music] [Music] mr martin how you doing sir mr martin how you doing sir mr martin how you doing sir very well happy to be here this is andy very well happy to be here this is andy very well happy to be here this is andy martin he has over 10 years of technical martin he has over 10 years of technical martin he has over 10 years of technical and management experience in building and management experience in building and management experience in building designing and constructing designing and constructing designing and constructing control systems and project management control systems and project management control systems and project management most of that was a mouthful most of that was a mouthful most of that was a mouthful most of which were with mission critical most of which were with mission critical most of which were with mission critical facilities like data centers and facilities like data centers and facilities like data centers and hospitals hospitals hospitals he holds a masters of science in he holds a masters of science in he holds a masters of science in software engineering from the university software engineering from the university software engineering from the university of st of st of st thomas in saint paul which of course was thomas in saint paul which of course was thomas in saint paul which of course was why he could join me here today because why he could join me here today because why he could join me here today because he's he's he's local to the cities and you will know local to the cities and you will know local to the cities and you will know that we are properly socially distancing that we are properly socially distancing that we are properly socially distancing even though it looks even though it looks even though it looks like we're far away um he has had full like we're far away um he has had full like we're far away um he has had full responsibility for responsibility for responsibility for tons of scopes of work uh including p l tons of scopes of work uh including p l tons of scopes of work uh including p l on many multi-million dollar complex on many multi-million dollar complex on many multi-million dollar complex contracts contracts contracts like data centers hospitals and even an like data centers hospitals and even an like data centers hospitals and even an nfl stadium nfl stadium nfl stadium and i can guess which one that is i and i can guess which one that is i and i can guess which one that is i think take a wild guess you'll probably think take a wild guess you'll probably think take a wild guess you'll probably be playing be playing be playing you can't tell anyone but you know we you can't tell anyone but you know we you can't tell anyone but you know we live here at uh where the vikings play live here at uh where the vikings play live here at uh where the vikings play so andy is the president and founder of so andy is the president and founder of so andy is the president and founder of blue rhythm which is blue rhythm which is blue rhythm which is sas focused on streamlining mission sas focused on streamlining mission sas focused on streamlining mission critical and commercial critical and commercial critical and commercial commissioning efforts and so people who commissioning efforts and so people who commissioning efforts and so people who have no idea what that is have no idea what that is have no idea what that is i'm going to talk a little bit so i was i'm going to talk a little bit so i was i'm going to talk a little bit so i was an electrician an electrician an electrician for just like the blink of an eye before for just like the blink of an eye before for just like the blink of an eye before i decided i wanted to go write code for i decided i wanted to go write code for i decided i wanted to go write code for a living a living a living and i remember on one of these things so and i remember on one of these things so and i remember on one of these things so we were installing pipe and running wire we were installing pipe and running wire we were installing pipe and running wire and i remember we built a big data and i remember we built a big data and i remember we built a big data center in the and i say we i was like an center in the and i say we i was like an center in the and i say we i was like an apprentice right but we built a big data apprentice right but we built a big data apprentice right but we built a big data center in the bay area center in the bay area center in the bay area and i had to carry around this clipboard and i had to carry around this clipboard and i had to carry around this clipboard and had to follow an engineer around and and had to follow an engineer around and and had to follow an engineer around and it was a big it was a big it was a big checklist of all this stuff as they checklist of all this stuff as they checklist of all this stuff as they would turn on the the uninterruptable would turn on the the uninterruptable would turn on the the uninterruptable power supplies the ups's power supplies the ups's power supplies the ups's and then they would turn the generator and then they would turn the generator and then they would turn the generator on and they'd make sure that the

on and they'd make sure that the on and they'd make sure that the failsafe tripped and there was an failsafe tripped and there was an failsafe tripped and there was an automatic switch breaker and blah blah automatic switch breaker and blah blah automatic switch breaker and blah blah and you had to test all this crap and you had to test all this crap and you had to test all this crap because because because once it's live and you have a thousand once it's live and you have a thousand once it's live and you have a thousand servers in there it can't break servers in there it can't break servers in there it can't break right and so that's commissioning and right and so that's commissioning and right and so that's commissioning and that's what blue rhythm does is it takes that's what blue rhythm does is it takes that's what blue rhythm does is it takes that clipboard or the five clipboards that clipboard or the five clipboards that clipboard or the five clipboards that we used to carry around and all the that we used to carry around and all the that we used to carry around and all the paper paper paper we then had to fax to people right we then had to fax to people right we then had to fax to people right that's how old i am and it puts it into that's how old i am and it puts it into that's how old i am and it puts it into sass sass sass exactly exactly yeah it's just a it's a exactly exactly yeah it's just a it's a exactly exactly yeah it's just a it's a project management tool for that project management tool for that project management tool for that specific specific specific situation so you know if you're the situation so you know if you're the situation so you know if you're the person building the data center you person building the data center you person building the data center you might hire might hire might hire somebody who's one of our customers and somebody who's one of our customers and somebody who's one of our customers and our customers will take our software and our customers will take our software and our customers will take our software and they'll go through their checklist they'll go through their checklist they'll go through their checklist it'll create the reports for them and it'll create the reports for them and it'll create the reports for them and just really kind of automate everything just really kind of automate everything just really kind of automate everything right and i love it because it's such a right and i love it because it's such a right and i love it because it's such a niche right there's there's so much niche right there's there's so much niche right there's there's so much value and not value and not value and not you know you're not competing against you know you're not competing against you know you're not competing against whatever mailchimp is an esp or you know whatever mailchimp is an esp or you know whatever mailchimp is an esp or you know these other big players google like these other big players google like these other big players google like you've picked such a small slice that you've picked such a small slice that you've picked such a small slice that really really really you know microsoft's not going to come you know microsoft's not going to come you know microsoft's not going to come build commissioning software right you build commissioning software right you build commissioning software right you know or google or facebook like right know or google or facebook like right know or google or facebook like right you are in a place obviously you have you are in a place obviously you have you are in a place obviously you have big bigger competitors than you but big bigger competitors than you but big bigger competitors than you but um it's not something that they're going um it's not something that they're going um it's not something that they're going to come and attack and to come and attack and to come and attack and you i asked you about mrr um you're in you i asked you about mrr um you're in you i asked you about mrr um you're in your your your five-figure mrr which for folks who are five-figure mrr which for folks who are five-figure mrr which for folks who are counting it's that means 10 000 counting it's that means 10 000 counting it's that means 10 000 or more in mrr just to give you an idea or more in mrr just to give you an idea or more in mrr just to give you an idea of you know of where he lands of you know of where he lands of you know of where he lands um your yeah your minneapolis based i um your yeah your minneapolis based i um your yeah your minneapolis based i think we already mentioned that which is think we already mentioned that which is think we already mentioned that which is why we can hang out why we can hang out why we can hang out and really my first serious question for and really my first serious question for and really my first serious question for you is longboard or shortboard sir you is longboard or shortboard sir you is longboard or shortboard sir actually wakeboard wakeboard western kid actually wakeboard wakeboard western kid actually wakeboard wakeboard western kid that's uh that's kind of what i've grown that's uh that's kind of what i've grown that's uh that's kind of what i've grown up doing and up doing and up doing and actually did around this past weekend actually did around this past weekend actually did around this past weekend which i'm still feeling the effects of which i'm still feeling the effects of which i'm still feeling the effects of the store from yeah so a wake board you

the store from yeah so a wake board you the store from yeah so a wake board you pull on the back of a boat right and you pull on the back of a boat right and you pull on the back of a boat right and you stand up on it so stand up on it so stand up on it so it's as close as you can kind of get to it's as close as you can kind of get to it's as close as you can kind of get to surfing yeah exactly that's how you surfing yeah exactly that's how you surfing yeah exactly that's how you serve in the midwest i guess serve in the midwest i guess serve in the midwest i guess 10 000 lakes you don't have much tide 10 000 lakes you don't have much tide 10 000 lakes you don't have much tide for a long board so for a long board so for a long board so obviously this was a pain point you know obviously this was a pain point you know obviously this was a pain point you know to build blue rhythm like the origin to build blue rhythm like the origin to build blue rhythm like the origin story story story since you were involved in this since you were involved in this since you were involved in this commissioning this was a pain point that commissioning this was a pain point that commissioning this was a pain point that you were experiencing you were experiencing you were experiencing but you weren't a developer i know you but you weren't a developer i know you but you weren't a developer i know you would toyed around with some stuff would toyed around with some stuff would toyed around with some stuff but like what made you think that you but like what made you think that you but like what made you think that you could build the prototype of blue rhythm could build the prototype of blue rhythm could build the prototype of blue rhythm not having ever not having ever not having ever built you know really built production built you know really built production built you know really built production code yeah so code yeah so code yeah so i guess i didn't know for sure that i i guess i didn't know for sure that i i guess i didn't know for sure that i could but i also didn't know that i could but i also didn't know that i could but i also didn't know that i couldn't couldn't couldn't so i really just wanted to try so that's so i really just wanted to try so that's so i really just wanted to try so that's what i did i just kind of started what i did i just kind of started what i did i just kind of started tinkering at first and just kind of tinkering at first and just kind of tinkering at first and just kind of testing the waters i tested the mark a testing the waters i tested the mark a testing the waters i tested the mark a little bit i did some outreach little bit i did some outreach little bit i did some outreach just put some feelers out and it just just put some feelers out and it just just put some feelers out and it just kept building and building and kept building and building and kept building and building and i got good response from people and i got good response from people and i got good response from people and decided to decided to decided to just keep at it yeah and so when you just keep at it yeah and so when you just keep at it yeah and so when you started building blue rhythm started building blue rhythm started building blue rhythm was there existing software already was there existing software already was there existing software already doing doing doing this and if so why did you think you this and if so why did you think you this and if so why did you think you know what edge did you think you had know what edge did you think you had know what edge did you think you had what did you think you could do better what did you think you could do better what did you think you could do better sure so yeah there were some existing sure so yeah there were some existing sure so yeah there were some existing solutions solutions solutions out there so that gave me just a little out there so that gave me just a little out there so that gave me just a little bit of confidence that there was a bit of confidence that there was a bit of confidence that there was a market you know there was people paying market you know there was people paying market you know there was people paying money for a solution like this money for a solution like this money for a solution like this um but the the existing options were um but the the existing options were um but the the existing options were either either either real old legacy platforms that were kind real old legacy platforms that were kind real old legacy platforms that were kind of on the downslope of their their life of on the downslope of their their life of on the downslope of their their life cycle or there's a there's a couple cycle or there's a there's a couple cycle or there's a there's a couple newer newer newer real modern sas you know web uh real modern sas you know web uh real modern sas you know web uh web-based web-based web-based platforms that are out there and they

platforms that are out there and they platforms that are out there and they just have real clunky pricing models just have real clunky pricing models just have real clunky pricing models they're not as easy to do business with they're not as easy to do business with they're not as easy to do business with so i felt like there was an opportunity so i felt like there was an opportunity so i felt like there was an opportunity to to get in to to get in to to get in it's not a saturated market um over half it's not a saturated market um over half it's not a saturated market um over half of this industry is not of this industry is not of this industry is not using a sas solution right now they're using a sas solution right now they're using a sas solution right now they're using a combination of using a combination of using a combination of homegrown tools access databases maybe homegrown tools access databases maybe homegrown tools access databases maybe some cloud file storage so some cloud file storage so some cloud file storage so lots of opportunity for them to lots of opportunity for them to lots of opportunity for them to streamline and really come on board with streamline and really come on board with streamline and really come on board with a you know modern a you know modern a you know modern web platform to manage their projects web platform to manage their projects web platform to manage their projects yeah that makes sense yeah that makes sense yeah that makes sense and so how in an industry like this and so how in an industry like this and so how in an industry like this obviously you're not going to be able to obviously you're not going to be able to obviously you're not going to be able to run run run um i shouldn't say not but i would guess um i shouldn't say not but i would guess um i shouldn't say not but i would guess i'm guessing facebook ads is not going i'm guessing facebook ads is not going i'm guessing facebook ads is not going to work in your space you know and even to work in your space you know and even to work in your space you know and even like like like google adwords and linkedin are going to google adwords and linkedin are going to google adwords and linkedin are going to be a tough they're going to be tough be a tough they're going to be tough be a tough they're going to be tough traffic traffic traffic channels so you know are there a couple channels so you know are there a couple channels so you know are there a couple kind of lead gen kind of lead gen kind of lead gen avenues that have really worked for you avenues that have really worked for you avenues that have really worked for you yeah it's it's been tricky it's still yeah it's it's been tricky it's still yeah it's it's been tricky it's still it still is tricky um so whatever we do it still is tricky um so whatever we do it still is tricky um so whatever we do it just has to be very very targeted so it just has to be very very targeted so it just has to be very very targeted so yes facebook ads are difficult um we're yes facebook ads are difficult um we're yes facebook ads are difficult um we're trying some different things with trying some different things with trying some different things with um just promoting uh blog posts to um just promoting uh blog posts to um just promoting uh blog posts to a retargeted audience or look-alike a retargeted audience or look-alike a retargeted audience or look-alike audiences so still very very narrow audiences so still very very narrow audiences so still very very narrow um same thing with with google ads so um same thing with with google ads so um same thing with with google ads so any paid paid acquisition we're any paid paid acquisition we're any paid paid acquisition we're we're keeping it very small very focused we're keeping it very small very focused we're keeping it very small very focused and and and the things that have really i think move the things that have really i think move the things that have really i think move the needle are kind of the in-person the needle are kind of the in-person the needle are kind of the in-person events so events so events so we go to industry conferences it's such we go to industry conferences it's such we go to industry conferences it's such a small community that a small community that a small community that if you're not at those events you're if you're not at those events you're if you're not at those events you're really kind of not part of the really kind of not part of the really kind of not part of the industry and in the community so you industry and in the community so you industry and in the community so you know last year once we once we started know last year once we once we started know last year once we once we started showing up to those showing up to those showing up to those events it really just gets our name out events it really just gets our name out events it really just gets our name out there people see that we're there people see that we're there people see that we're serious and we're here to stay and make

serious and we're here to stay and make serious and we're here to stay and make a long-term push a long-term push a long-term push in the market so the in-person events at in the market so the in-person events at in the market so the in-person events at conferences conferences conferences you know setting up a booth talking to you know setting up a booth talking to you know setting up a booth talking to people face to face and people face to face and people face to face and cold outreach has been a good channel cold outreach has been a good channel cold outreach has been a good channel for us too for us too for us too which is difficult and there's some good which is difficult and there's some good which is difficult and there's some good bad ways to do that but bad ways to do that but bad ways to do that but um had some success there just some um had some success there just some um had some success there just some people just you know aren't people just you know aren't people just you know aren't aren't aware or um just aren't currently aren't aware or um just aren't currently aren't aware or um just aren't currently you know in the mindset where they're you know in the mindset where they're you know in the mindset where they're looking so they just need that little looking so they just need that little looking so they just need that little extra extra extra prompt to get them interested yep yeah prompt to get them interested yep yeah prompt to get them interested yep yeah and that's the thing is and that's the thing is and that's the thing is you know i'll hear people say that let's you know i'll hear people say that let's you know i'll hear people say that let's say cold email is dead or that um say cold email is dead or that um say cold email is dead or that um you know trade shows and events aren't you know trade shows and events aren't you know trade shows and events aren't worth it but in these small niches worth it but in these small niches worth it but in these small niches where there are only thousands of where there are only thousands of where there are only thousands of potential customers you know or maybe potential customers you know or maybe potential customers you know or maybe tens of thousands but there aren't that tens of thousands but there aren't that tens of thousands but there aren't that many many many that oftentimes that still works you that oftentimes that still works you that oftentimes that still works you know if you're trying to cold email know if you're trying to cold email know if you're trying to cold email um i'm trying to say you know if you're um i'm trying to say you know if you're um i'm trying to say you know if you're trying to cold email startup founders trying to cold email startup founders trying to cold email startup founders today today today or startup executives or whatever that's or startup executives or whatever that's or startup executives or whatever that's a it's pretty saturated it's still a it's pretty saturated it's still a it's pretty saturated it's still possible you can possible you can possible you can but it takes a lot of time but in a but it takes a lot of time but in a but it takes a lot of time but in a space like that that maybe isn't space like that that maybe isn't space like that that maybe isn't inundated inundated inundated uh you know i think there's a lot of uh you know i think there's a lot of uh you know i think there's a lot of room there yep so room there yep so room there yep so you started working on blue within part you started working on blue within part you started working on blue within part time about four years ago it was 2016 time about four years ago it was 2016 time about four years ago it was 2016 you toiled part-time for two years and you toiled part-time for two years and you toiled part-time for two years and you you you you know you told me offline before we you know you told me offline before we you know you told me offline before we chatted you had a bunch of beta users chatted you had a bunch of beta users chatted you had a bunch of beta users coming really early coming really early coming really early they would come in they'd use it and they would come in they'd use it and they would come in they'd use it and they would churn out what was going on they would churn out what was going on they would churn out what was going on there what was the issue because there what was the issue because there what was the issue because i'm sure there are folks listening right i'm sure there are folks listening right i'm sure there are folks listening right now who are in exactly the same position now who are in exactly the same position now who are in exactly the same position that you were two years ago that you were two years ago that you were two years ago yeah so for better or worse i took the yeah so for better or worse i took the yeah so for better or worse i took the path of path of path of getting something put together getting a getting something put together getting a getting something put together getting a usable product i don't know if you call usable product i don't know if you call usable product i don't know if you call an mvp or not but

an mvp or not but an mvp or not but getting something there where people getting something there where people getting something there where people could come in and use it could come in and use it could come in and use it so i was i was just testing the product so i was i was just testing the product so i was i was just testing the product testing to see what testing to see what testing to see what what people would respond to um and i what people would respond to um and i what people would respond to um and i got a huge amount of feedback got a huge amount of feedback got a huge amount of feedback so it's not a so it's not a so it's not a approach that would work or i would approach that would work or i would approach that would work or i would advise in all situations but advise in all situations but advise in all situations but for me never having started a business for me never having started a business for me never having started a business before let alone a software company before let alone a software company before let alone a software company getting that getting all that feedback getting that getting all that feedback getting that getting all that feedback early on really drove the direction that early on really drove the direction that early on really drove the direction that we ended up taking the company and i we ended up taking the company and i we ended up taking the company and i think without that feedback we would think without that feedback we would think without that feedback we would have have have toiled a lot longer and and had a lot toiled a lot longer and and had a lot toiled a lot longer and and had a lot more difficulty reaching the point where more difficulty reaching the point where more difficulty reaching the point where we finally feel like we have product we finally feel like we have product we finally feel like we have product markets that markets that markets that um where we figured out these different um where we figured out these different um where we figured out these different marketing channels and stuff so marketing channels and stuff so marketing channels and stuff so just lots of experimentation and some of just lots of experimentation and some of just lots of experimentation and some of those early adopters that are willing to those early adopters that are willing to those early adopters that are willing to give us a try they're also willing to give us a try they're also willing to give us a try they're also willing to you know tell you how bad it sucks or you know tell you how bad it sucks or you know tell you how bad it sucks or give you some some feedback that'll get give you some some feedback that'll get give you some some feedback that'll get you going in the right direction so you going in the right direction so you going in the right direction so um that's that's really what it was it um that's that's really what it was it um that's that's really what it was it just was a product that just was a product that just was a product that that wasn't quite ready yet and you know that wasn't quite ready yet and you know that wasn't quite ready yet and you know so many developers that i know so many developers that i know so many developers that i know go in their basement for two years and go in their basement for two years and go in their basement for two years and just code and they don't have anybody just code and they don't have anybody just code and they don't have anybody use the app use the app use the app whereas you went counter to that it whereas you went counter to that it whereas you went counter to that it sounds like intuitively your natural sounds like intuitively your natural sounds like intuitively your natural instinct was to let people use it early instinct was to let people use it early instinct was to let people use it early again that's even back in the day that again that's even back in the day that again that's even back in the day that was not my instinct because i was scared was not my instinct because i was scared was not my instinct because i was scared and it was never good enough and it was and it was never good enough and it was and it was never good enough and it was never there never there never there why do you think you did that why do you why do you think you did that why do you why do you think you did that why do you think you did the opposite of what most think you did the opposite of what most think you did the opposite of what most people do people do people do um partly for the reasons i said and um partly for the reasons i said and um partly for the reasons i said and partly just out of ignorance partly just out of ignorance partly just out of ignorance honestly there were a couple times where honestly there were a couple times where honestly there were a couple times where i i thought we had

i i thought we had i i thought we had got it to a point where it was going to got it to a point where it was going to got it to a point where it was going to work and it was work and it was work and it was good enough so to speak but it wasn't good enough so to speak but it wasn't good enough so to speak but it wasn't and and and those were the just in terms of those were the just in terms of those were the just in terms of rejection rejection rejection and just the emotional response that i and just the emotional response that i and just the emotional response that i had those were some of the had those were some of the had those were some of the the toughest times but um you know i the toughest times but um you know i the toughest times but um you know i i just stuck with it and i was like you i just stuck with it and i was like you i just stuck with it and i was like you know there's there's a response people know there's there's a response people know there's there's a response people want this want this want this if i keep at it eventually we'll get if i keep at it eventually we'll get if i keep at it eventually we'll get this figured out this figured out this figured out and eventually they'll you know the the and eventually they'll you know the the and eventually they'll you know the the feedback will shift feedback will shift feedback will shift to more positive versus more negative to more positive versus more negative to more positive versus more negative right yeah that's what's going to ask right yeah that's what's going to ask right yeah that's what's going to ask you about you spent two years you about you spent two years you about you spent two years part-time obviously you were probably part-time obviously you were probably part-time obviously you were probably working a day job right and you had working a day job right and you had working a day job right and you had nights and weekends working on nights and weekends working on nights and weekends working on blue rhythm two years is a long time blue rhythm two years is a long time blue rhythm two years is a long time you're getting rejection people are you're getting rejection people are you're getting rejection people are churning out churning out churning out why didn't you quit i think there was why didn't you quit i think there was why didn't you quit i think there was always enough always enough always enough momentum for me to keep pushing forward momentum for me to keep pushing forward momentum for me to keep pushing forward and and and and i just had a strong desire to make and i just had a strong desire to make and i just had a strong desire to make it work it work it work i'd always wanted to have something that i'd always wanted to have something that i'd always wanted to have something that i that i owned that i created i just i that i owned that i created i just i that i owned that i created i just liked the liked the liked the the process of creating and getting the the process of creating and getting the the process of creating and getting the feedback even though it's not always feedback even though it's not always feedback even though it's not always good and and taking that good and and taking that good and and taking that adding it into the product and then adding it into the product and then adding it into the product and then getting the feedback that says hey getting the feedback that says hey getting the feedback that says hey that's great that's great that's great thanks for thanks for doing that um so thanks for thanks for doing that um so thanks for thanks for doing that um so just the just the desire to see it to just the just the desire to see it to just the just the desire to see it to see it through and to to see it work see it through and to to see it work see it through and to to see it work and just knowing that the market was and just knowing that the market was and just knowing that the market was there you know it wasn't like i was there you know it wasn't like i was there you know it wasn't like i was trying to trying to trying to convince people to to do something that convince people to to do something that convince people to to do something that they had never they had never they had never thought of or seen before right yeah and thought of or seen before right yeah and thought of or seen before right yeah and then then then it was just about a year ago it was it was just about a year ago it was it was just about a year ago it was mid-2019 that you you kind of mid-2019 that you you kind of mid-2019 that you you kind of call your soft launch right where you call your soft launch right where you call your soft launch right where you actually feel like you kind of went all

actually feel like you kind of went all actually feel like you kind of went all in in in um you said this is when things started um you said this is when things started um you said this is when things started growing for you growing for you growing for you and i'm curious that when you went and i'm curious that when you went and i'm curious that when you went full-time it is yeah may full-time it is yeah may full-time it is yeah may last year may of last year and did you last year may of last year and did you last year may of last year and did you have enough revenue to cover have enough revenue to cover have enough revenue to cover your you know expenses or did you have your you know expenses or did you have your you know expenses or did you have savings or did you just savings or did you just savings or did you just jump off the diving um yeah i didn't jump off the diving um yeah i didn't jump off the diving um yeah i didn't wasn't quite at a point where wasn't quite at a point where wasn't quite at a point where the the business alone would have um the the business alone would have um the the business alone would have um kept me going so kept me going so kept me going so i had a fallback plan which was some i had a fallback plan which was some i had a fallback plan which was some savings which i did use some of savings which i did use some of savings which i did use some of um but yeah i um but yeah i um but yeah i i just had confidence that we were close i just had confidence that we were close i just had confidence that we were close enough enough enough to product market fit that it was going to product market fit that it was going to product market fit that it was going to work um to work um to work um just because of our who our customers just because of our who our customers just because of our who our customers are and how our pricing model works it are and how our pricing model works it are and how our pricing model works it makes sense most of the time for people makes sense most of the time for people makes sense most of the time for people to pay annually to pay annually to pay annually so even though our mrr you know is maybe so even though our mrr you know is maybe so even though our mrr you know is maybe in four figures the actual amount of in four figures the actual amount of in four figures the actual amount of money coming in the door was money coming in the door was money coming in the door was you know in five figures potentially or you know in five figures potentially or you know in five figures potentially or higher four figures so higher four figures so higher four figures so um i just i just had confidence that it um i just i just had confidence that it um i just i just had confidence that it was was was going to work out one way or another and going to work out one way or another and going to work out one way or another and you know worst case i you know worst case i you know worst case i like i told you i end up living in my like i told you i end up living in my like i told you i end up living in my parents basement for a little bit but parents basement for a little bit but parents basement for a little bit but that happens it's sacrifices we make that happens it's sacrifices we make that happens it's sacrifices we make right yeah yeah so right yeah yeah so right yeah yeah so pull the trigger i figured if if i'm pull the trigger i figured if if i'm pull the trigger i figured if if i'm gonna make it work i gotta i gotta be gonna make it work i gotta i gotta be gonna make it work i gotta i gotta be all in and all in and all in and that's the that's when i jumped off yep that's the that's when i jumped off yep that's the that's when i jumped off yep and and and i was so that he he just said a pretty i was so that he he just said a pretty i was so that he he just said a pretty cool hack that i've heard many people cool hack that i've heard many people cool hack that i've heard many people mention i've actually done it myself mention i've actually done it myself mention i've actually done it myself jason cohen talked about it jason cohen talked about it jason cohen talked about it um in in one of the best talks about um in in one of the best talks about um in in one of the best talks about bootstrapping uh ever bootstrapping uh ever bootstrapping uh ever called backing what is it yeah building called backing what is it yeah building called backing what is it yeah building the ideal bootstrap business i believe the ideal bootstrap business i believe the ideal bootstrap business i believe but it's the annual prepay and if you're but it's the annual prepay and if you're but it's the annual prepay and if you're in a space in a space in a space where as a bootstrapper you can get your

where as a bootstrapper you can get your where as a bootstrapper you can get your customers to annually customers to annually customers to annually prepay typically given two months off is prepay typically given two months off is prepay typically given two months off is how you know i would often work it so how you know i would often work it so how you know i would often work it so you give them about a 16 you give them about a 16 you give them about a 16 and 23 discount um then your cash flow and 23 discount um then your cash flow and 23 discount um then your cash flow is way more than your mrr but that can is way more than your mrr but that can is way more than your mrr but that can allow you to either hire someone or allow you to either hire someone or allow you to either hire someone or allows you to quit your day job or allows you to quit your day job or allows you to quit your day job or whatever it is whatever it is whatever it is i'm curious so you have this two years i'm curious so you have this two years i'm curious so you have this two years of just two of just two of just two or three years of kind of toiling or three years of kind of toiling or three years of kind of toiling part-time and part-time and part-time and um struggling people are churning out um struggling people are churning out um struggling people are churning out then you you had enough traction that then you you had enough traction that then you you had enough traction that you're like i think we're almost at you're like i think we're almost at you're like i think we're almost at product market fit and and then you did product market fit and and then you did product market fit and and then you did you have achieved it at this point um you have achieved it at this point um you have achieved it at this point um what changed between that early height what changed between that early height what changed between that early height those early high churn days those early high churn days those early high churn days and the past 12 months of kind of as and the past 12 months of kind of as and the past 12 months of kind of as your growth has accelerated like what's your growth has accelerated like what's your growth has accelerated like what's what's different yeah i can't point to what's different yeah i can't point to what's different yeah i can't point to one specific thing but it's definitely one specific thing but it's definitely one specific thing but it's definitely just a just a just a you know a combination of getting the you know a combination of getting the you know a combination of getting the getting the the messaging and the getting the the messaging and the getting the the messaging and the marketing the positioning figured out uh marketing the positioning figured out uh marketing the positioning figured out uh you know so we're we're talking to the you know so we're we're talking to the you know so we're we're talking to the right people we're right people we're right people we're having the right people coming to to having the right people coming to to having the right people coming to to talk to us about signing up talk to us about signing up talk to us about signing up um so they know what they're getting um so they know what they're getting um so they know what they're getting into we know who we're talking to and into we know who we're talking to and into we know who we're talking to and and what the you know our deal customer and what the you know our deal customer and what the you know our deal customer is looking for is looking for is looking for and then just having that much time to and then just having that much time to and then just having that much time to to work on the product and to work on the product and to work on the product and and get it ready and and get you know as and get it ready and and get you know as and get it ready and and get you know as closer i can't say that we're closer i can't say that we're closer i can't say that we're 100 there but getting much much closer 100 there but getting much much closer 100 there but getting much much closer to product market fit to product market fit to product market fit yep yep yeah that makes sense such an yep yep yeah that makes sense such an yep yep yeah that makes sense such an evolving process and it's not binary evolving process and it's not binary evolving process and it's not binary right it's a continuum it's like right it's a continuum it's like right it's a continuum it's like you notch it up from 20 to 30 to 40 to you notch it up from 20 to 30 to 40 to you notch it up from 20 to 30 to 40 to 50 50 50 60 70 and then oftentimes you'll find a 60 70 and then oftentimes you'll find a 60 70 and then oftentimes you'll find a new audience and i don't know

new audience and i don't know new audience and i don't know in your tight niche if it'll do that but in your tight niche if it'll do that but in your tight niche if it'll do that but then you find a new audience that finds then you find a new audience that finds then you find a new audience that finds out about you out about you out about you and then your aggregate product market and then your aggregate product market and then your aggregate product market fit actually goes down again and then fit actually goes down again and then fit actually goes down again and then you have to work because the new you have to work because the new you have to work because the new audience you don't quite have it right audience you don't quite have it right audience you don't quite have it right you don't have all the features yep you don't have all the features yep you don't have all the features yep um as as we kind of wrap up i you know um as as we kind of wrap up i you know um as as we kind of wrap up i you know you're you're in tiny seed batch too you're you're in tiny seed batch too you're you're in tiny seed batch too and um i'm curious why and um i'm curious why and um i'm curious why like what made you decide to well i'm like what made you decide to well i'm like what made you decide to well i'm first i'm curious how you heard about first i'm curious how you heard about first i'm curious how you heard about tiny seed and second tiny seed and second tiny seed and second what made you decide to apply because what made you decide to apply because what made you decide to apply because the application you know you went um the application you know you went um the application you know you went um middle of of 2019 you went full time and middle of of 2019 you went full time and middle of of 2019 you went full time and you would have applied probably four or you would have applied probably four or you would have applied probably four or five months later five months later five months later it would have been november of 2019 and it would have been november of 2019 and it would have been november of 2019 and then you would have been accepted i then you would have been accepted i then you would have been accepted i think you know about six seven months think you know about six seven months think you know about six seven months ago so ago so ago so first you know where did you hear about first you know where did you hear about first you know where did you hear about it in a second what made you decide to it in a second what made you decide to it in a second what made you decide to apply so apply so apply so i had been a listener of startups for i had been a listener of startups for i had been a listener of startups for the rest of us for a long time the rest of us for a long time the rest of us for a long time um so i that's probably where i heard um so i that's probably where i heard um so i that's probably where i heard about it or just something related to about it or just something related to about it or just something related to that that that that channel and the idea was to that channel and the idea was to that channel and the idea was to it wasn't so much a safety net so to it wasn't so much a safety net so to it wasn't so much a safety net so to speak but it was speak but it was speak but it was originally planned to be kind of an originally planned to be kind of an originally planned to be kind of an accelerant so there were some other accelerant so there were some other accelerant so there were some other parts of the the platform that we really parts of the the platform that we really parts of the the platform that we really needed to to reach needed to to reach needed to to reach to really get our platform built out and to really get our platform built out and to really get our platform built out and get to parity and exceed parity with the get to parity and exceed parity with the get to parity and exceed parity with the other other other options out there and the plan was to options out there and the plan was to options out there and the plan was to take that and really just kind of take that and really just kind of take that and really just kind of throw the fuel on the fire i feel like i throw the fuel on the fire i feel like i throw the fuel on the fire i feel like i felt like we had a really good idea of felt like we had a really good idea of felt like we had a really good idea of what we needed to do at that point and what we needed to do at that point and what we needed to do at that point and i just wanted to do it faster really and i just wanted to do it faster really and i just wanted to do it faster really and has it accelerated for you has it accelerated for you has it accelerated for you yeah definitely awesome yep well sir yeah definitely awesome yep well sir yeah definitely awesome yep well sir we're at time thank you so much for we're at time thank you so much for we're at time thank you so much for joining us today yeah joining us today yeah joining us today yeah absolutely happy to be here great having

absolutely happy to be here great having absolutely happy to be here great having [Music]