More Co-Founders Can Lead to Faster Growth, and Mitigating Platform Risk with Shar Darafsheh

every wednesday at 1 pm eastern 10 every wednesday at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m pacific we live stream for 30 a.m pacific we live stream for 30 a.m pacific we live stream for 30 minutes and we cover topics relating to minutes and we cover topics relating to minutes and we cover topics relating to building and growing ambitious building and growing ambitious building and growing ambitious sas startups that bring us freedom and sas startups that bring us freedom and sas startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to value purpose and allow us to value purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy relationships we and maintain healthy relationships we and maintain healthy relationships we believe that showing up every day believe that showing up every day believe that showing up every day and shipping that next feature piece of and shipping that next feature piece of and shipping that next feature piece of marketing coffee marketing coffee marketing coffee closing your next sale is the way to closing your next sale is the way to closing your next sale is the way to build a sustainable company build a sustainable company build a sustainable company we don't ask for permission to start we don't ask for permission to start we don't ask for permission to start companies we build and ship real companies we build and ship real companies we build and ship real products products products sell the real customers who pay us real sell the real customers who pay us real sell the real customers who pay us real money money money welcome back thanks so much for joining welcome back thanks so much for joining welcome back thanks so much for joining me again this week we took last week off me again this week we took last week off me again this week we took last week off due to the u.s elections felt like our due to the u.s elections felt like our due to the u.s elections felt like our attention and most other folks attention attention and most other folks attention attention and most other folks attention were were were dedicated to that but we're back heading dedicated to that but we're back heading dedicated to that but we're back heading uh uh uh heading into the rest of the year today heading into the rest of the year today heading into the rest of the year today i'm going to be talking i'm going to be talking i'm going to be talking with a really interesting founder about with a really interesting founder about with a really interesting founder about how a team of five how a team of five how a team of five co-founders of a bootstrap product how co-founders of a bootstrap product how co-founders of a bootstrap product how they mitigate platform risk and how they they mitigate platform risk and how they they mitigate platform risk and how they manage manage manage and deal with being five co-founders and deal with being five co-founders and deal with being five co-founders because it's a really unique situation because it's a really unique situation because it's a really unique situation to be in to be in to be in so my guest today is char oh man so my guest today is char oh man so my guest today is char oh man he had he pronounced his last name for he had he pronounced his last name for he had he pronounced his last name for me and i even wrote it phonetically me and i even wrote it phonetically me and i even wrote it phonetically and i'm still struggling with duraffshu and i'm still struggling with duraffshu and i'm still struggling with duraffshu yeah yeah durashu yeah yeah durashu yeah yeah durashu i think that's that's close we'll ask i think that's that's close we'll ask i think that's that's close we'll ask him once once he comes down bashar him once once he comes down bashar him once once he comes down bashar dirafshu dirafshu dirafshu he is uh dhiravshashtar on twitter he is uh dhiravshashtar on twitter he is uh dhiravshashtar on twitter and he is the co-founder and the ceo of and he is the co-founder and the ceo of and he is the co-founder and the ceo of servicebot so that's servicebot.io servicebot so that's servicebot.io servicebot so that's servicebot.io and he shar has been a designer and and he shar has been a designer and and he shar has been a designer and devops devops devops architect in the past for the past five architect in the past for the past five architect in the past for the past five years he's been focused on subscriptions years he's been focused on subscriptions years he's been focused on subscriptions online payments online payments online payments and stripe and his vision is to make it

and stripe and his vision is to make it and stripe and his vision is to make it easier for sas businesses to charge easier for sas businesses to charge easier for sas businesses to charge recurring revenue recurring revenue recurring revenue servicebot was born about three years servicebot was born about three years servicebot was born about three years ago in 2017 ago in 2017 ago in 2017 and the idea behind it is to make it and the idea behind it is to make it and the idea behind it is to make it easier and faster for sas businesses to easier and faster for sas businesses to easier and faster for sas businesses to charge recurring revenue so many charge recurring revenue so many charge recurring revenue so many sas or digital agencies spend a week or sas or digital agencies spend a week or sas or digital agencies spend a week or months weeks or months developing months weeks or months developing months weeks or months developing all the customer facing billing pages all the customer facing billing pages all the customer facing billing pages required to allow customers to subscribe required to allow customers to subscribe required to allow customers to subscribe to plans manage subscriptions to plans manage subscriptions to plans manage subscriptions update cards and so on and servicebot is update cards and so on and servicebot is update cards and so on and servicebot is a ui a ui a ui toolkit so it's a series of screens ui toolkit so it's a series of screens ui toolkit so it's a series of screens ui toolkit it's built on top of stripe toolkit it's built on top of stripe toolkit it's built on top of stripe billing billing billing and it allows stripe businesses to and it allows stripe businesses to and it allows stripe businesses to self-service self-serve their customers self-service self-serve their customers self-service self-serve their customers uh subscription customers without code uh subscription customers without code uh subscription customers without code and they have embeddable and they have embeddable and they have embeddable billing pages um that they have built billing pages um that they have built billing pages um that they have built and so and so and so i'd love to welcome char to the show i'd love to welcome char to the show i'd love to welcome char to the show calling in from berkeley california how calling in from berkeley california how calling in from berkeley california how are you doing sir are you doing sir are you doing sir hi rob how are you great great to have hi rob how are you great great to have hi rob how are you great great to have you on man you on man you on man so to kick us off you know there's a lot so to kick us off you know there's a lot so to kick us off you know there's a lot of uh if you're in microconf connect of uh if you're in microconf connect of uh if you're in microconf connect please feel free to ask questions please feel free to ask questions please feel free to ask questions i have questions queued up of course but i have questions queued up of course but i have questions queued up of course but we love to hear live participation we love to hear live participation we love to hear live participation from the audience and and from the from the audience and and from the from the audience and and from the listeners microcompconnect.com if you're listeners microcompconnect.com if you're listeners microcompconnect.com if you're not in there not in there not in there my first question for you is i've seen my first question for you is i've seen my first question for you is i've seen i believe that i've seen tools like i believe that i've seen tools like i believe that i've seen tools like service bot in the past the subscription service bot in the past the subscription service bot in the past the subscription management platforms and what management platforms and what management platforms and what comes to mind for me is charge if i comes to mind for me is charge if i comes to mind for me is charge if i charge b charge b charge b recurly and a few others recurly and a few others recurly and a few others can you tell me how you're different can you tell me how you're different can you tell me how you're different than those options than those options than those options absolutely absolutely i mean to kind of

absolutely absolutely i mean to kind of absolutely absolutely i mean to kind of answer that let's take a look at the answer that let's take a look at the answer that let's take a look at the kind of subscription market in the past kind of subscription market in the past kind of subscription market in the past decade decade decade stripe billing did not exist back in stripe billing did not exist back in stripe billing did not exist back in 2018 2018 2018 um and charge a fire currently charged um and charge a fire currently charged um and charge a fire currently charged um um um they were all kind of in in the verge of they were all kind of in in the verge of they were all kind of in in the verge of getting traction and getting traction and getting traction and they were the only subscription they were the only subscription they were the only subscription management tools out there so they use management tools out there so they use management tools out there so they use tools like strike payments to tools like strike payments to tools like strike payments to run their subscriptions and when stripe run their subscriptions and when stripe run their subscriptions and when stripe billing came out it was kind of a direct billing came out it was kind of a direct billing came out it was kind of a direct competitor to these tools competitor to these tools competitor to these tools the way that we see ourself is that the way that we see ourself is that the way that we see ourself is that all the billing logic all the things all the billing logic all the things all the billing logic all the things that actually that actually that actually handles the subscriptions charging the handles the subscriptions charging the handles the subscriptions charging the customer managing refunds customer managing refunds customer managing refunds cards all the billing data itself is cards all the billing data itself is cards all the billing data itself is offloaded to stripe in our case offloaded to stripe in our case offloaded to stripe in our case we don't actually handle any of the we don't actually handle any of the we don't actually handle any of the billing cases we're purely a billing cases we're purely a billing cases we're purely a user interface platform on top of stripe user interface platform on top of stripe user interface platform on top of stripe so um from from that aspect we so um from from that aspect we so um from from that aspect we you know we can we're pretty lean to you know we can we're pretty lean to you know we can we're pretty lean to adapt any features that stripe adapt any features that stripe adapt any features that stripe is is releasing and being able to allow is is releasing and being able to allow is is releasing and being able to allow our customers to show those to their end our customers to show those to their end our customers to show those to their end customers customers customers instantly almost got it okay so instantly almost got it okay so instantly almost got it okay so just to define terms in case someone's just to define terms in case someone's just to define terms in case someone's watching and they're wondering what watching and they're wondering what watching and they're wondering what strike payments and stripe billing is strike payments and stripe billing is strike payments and stripe billing is stripe payments is just an api to charge stripe payments is just an api to charge stripe payments is just an api to charge a credit card one time a credit card one time a credit card one time right i want to have this card number right i want to have this card number right i want to have this card number and a cvv and a cvv and a cvv and i'm going to charge twenty dollars and i'm going to charge twenty dollars and i'm going to charge twenty dollars to it stripe billing to it stripe billing to it stripe billing is subscription billing is that correct is subscription billing is that correct is subscription billing is that correct or at least i know it has invoices and

or at least i know it has invoices and or at least i know it has invoices and such but is is that how you would lose such but is is that how you would lose such but is is that how you would lose that is correct that is correct that is correct that is that is correct and that's yeah you got it you can keep going yeah i you got it you can keep going yeah i mean so mean so mean so strike billing so still today and a lot strike billing so still today and a lot strike billing so still today and a lot of the south sas companies who are of the south sas companies who are of the south sas companies who are running their self-serve subscriptions running their self-serve subscriptions running their self-serve subscriptions they still have like a stripe account they still have like a stripe account they still have like a stripe account and they have something like charge b or and they have something like charge b or and they have something like charge b or chargeify chargeify chargeify and they're using both platforms at the and they're using both platforms at the and they're using both platforms at the same time uh the problem with that same time uh the problem with that same time uh the problem with that is one you're you're kind of getting is one you're you're kind of getting is one you're you're kind of getting double charged for the same kind of double charged for the same kind of double charged for the same kind of functionality because strike party has functionality because strike party has functionality because strike party has those functionalities those functionalities those functionalities and it's only been about a two two two and it's only been about a two two two and it's only been about a two two two and a half years since strike came out and a half years since strike came out and a half years since strike came out with the billing with the billing with the billing products so it's it's constantly products so it's it's constantly products so it's it's constantly improving and adding a lot of these improving and adding a lot of these improving and adding a lot of these features that the subscription features that the subscription features that the subscription management tools used to have management tools used to have management tools used to have into the stripe platform got it and so into the stripe platform got it and so into the stripe platform got it and so what you're saying is chargify recurly what you're saying is chargify recurly what you're saying is chargify recurly they are more they are more they are more competitive with stripe billing than competitive with stripe billing than competitive with stripe billing than they are with you they are with you they are with you not the idea so has anyone else are not the idea so has anyone else are not the idea so has anyone else are there any other there any other there any other competitors that are doing what you're competitors that are doing what you're competitors that are doing what you're doing right now or are you first to doing right now or are you first to doing right now or are you first to market in this unfortunately we are first to market for unfortunately we are first to market for the exact the exact the exact the specific niche that we're going the specific niche that we're going the specific niche that we're going after if you look at the no code market after if you look at the no code market after if you look at the no code market there are tools that are out there right there are tools that are out there right there are tools that are out there right now now now who who do similar things but target who who do similar things but target who who do similar things but target different audiences like someone like different audiences like someone like different audiences like someone like member stack member stack member stack is handling kind of user interface of is handling kind of user interface of is handling kind of user interface of billing they also sit on top of stripe billing they also sit on top of stripe billing they also sit on top of stripe but also on top of web flow they have but also on top of web flow they have but also on top of web flow they have user auth system in place user auth system in place user auth system in place they are really good for content gating

they are really good for content gating they are really good for content gating membership type of site membership type of site membership type of site not necessarily sas a lot of sas not necessarily sas a lot of sas not necessarily sas a lot of sas platforms either have a custom sas platforms either have a custom sas platforms either have a custom sas application they've built application they've built application they've built or they're using some sort of a noko or they're using some sort of a noko or they're using some sort of a noko tool like bubble or tool like bubble or tool like bubble or app builders to build those and and you app builders to build those and and you app builders to build those and and you know they have those tools have their know they have those tools have their know they have those tools have their own authentication system in place own authentication system in place own authentication system in place the difference between us and any other the difference between us and any other the difference between us and any other user interface tool is that we sit user interface tool is that we sit user interface tool is that we sit on top of your existing platform and on top of your existing platform and on top of your existing platform and connect to your user management meaning connect to your user management meaning connect to your user management meaning if you have a sas and you let your if you have a sas and you let your if you have a sas and you let your customers sign up to come to sas customers sign up to come to sas customers sign up to come to sas these are this is actually the number these are this is actually the number these are this is actually the number one use case that we handle one use case that we handle one use case that we handle you either have like a freemium model or you either have like a freemium model or you either have like a freemium model or a free trial model in most cases when a free trial model in most cases when a free trial model in most cases when you have sas you have sas you have sas you get the customer to sign up get into you get the customer to sign up get into you get the customer to sign up get into the product the product the product after 13 days or after that one feature after 13 days or after that one feature after 13 days or after that one feature that you want them to upgrade you want that you want them to upgrade you want that you want them to upgrade you want to show them like a plan picker you want to show them like a plan picker you want to show them like a plan picker you want to show them the plans that they are to show them the plans that they are to show them the plans that they are available to them available to them available to them to subscribe and once they do subscribe to subscribe and once they do subscribe to subscribe and once they do subscribe you want them to you want them to you want them to manage that subscription that needs to manage that subscription that needs to manage that subscription that needs to work with your existing work with your existing work with your existing user login meaning we need to detect user login meaning we need to detect user login meaning we need to detect exactly who it is that is logged in if exactly who it is that is logged in if exactly who it is that is logged in if they already have subscribed to a plan they already have subscribed to a plan they already have subscribed to a plan and if they haven't you show the pricing and if they haven't you show the pricing and if they haven't you show the pricing if they if they if they have you show the uh subscription have you show the uh subscription have you show the uh subscription management so management so management so these these are the kind of differences these these are the kind of differences these these are the kind of differences that you know that you know that you know they each serve different uh market and they each serve different uh market and they each serve different uh market and and uh and uh and uh per persona yeah i got it per persona yeah i got it per persona yeah i got it and so you know on your on your home and so you know on your on your home and so you know on your on your home page um page um page um your headlight your h1 is self-serve your headlight your h1 is self-serve your headlight your h1 is self-serve subscriptions with stripe in minutes and subscriptions with stripe in minutes and subscriptions with stripe in minutes and then right below that it's

then right below that it's then right below that it's no code embeddable billing pages that no code embeddable billing pages that no code embeddable billing pages that help online businesses monetize easier help online businesses monetize easier help online businesses monetize easier and faster and faster and faster so you're an embeddable you have a so you're an embeddable you have a so you're an embeddable you have a series a series of embeddable pages or series a series of embeddable pages or series a series of embeddable pages or embeddable widgets that i could put embeddable widgets that i could put embeddable widgets that i could put within my sas app so the customer within my sas app so the customer within my sas app so the customer shouldn't have any idea shouldn't have any idea shouldn't have any idea that they are using your service not that they are using your service not that they are using your service not like they're redirected off to a like they're redirected off to a like they're redirected off to a different subdomain different subdomain different subdomain and is this accomplished via is it like and is this accomplished via is it like and is this accomplished via is it like a javascript snippet that i install a javascript snippet that i install a javascript snippet that i install and then you render on the client that's correct got it okay that's that's correct got it okay that's correct correct correct which gives me the flexibility to which gives me the flexibility to which gives me the flexibility to yeah which gives you the flexibility to yeah which gives you the flexibility to yeah which gives you the flexibility to um brand it to your own so the end um brand it to your own so the end um brand it to your own so the end customer doesn't even know that this is customer doesn't even know that this is customer doesn't even know that this is from service but it looks you know from service but it looks you know from service but it looks you know identical to your brand identical to your brand identical to your brand right right okay so now that i have that right right okay so now that i have that right right okay so now that i have that down i'm just trying to get my head down i'm just trying to get my head down i'm just trying to get my head around the product you know around the product you know around the product you know around because you can tell right away around because you can tell right away around because you can tell right away i'm thinking oh why how is this not i'm thinking oh why how is this not i'm thinking oh why how is this not chargify and it's obvious that you're chargify and it's obvious that you're chargify and it's obvious that you're not not not you're not even that similar to you're not even that similar to you're not even that similar to chargeify at all but i think the next chargeify at all but i think the next chargeify at all but i think the next question kind of the obvious question is question kind of the obvious question is question kind of the obvious question is five co-founders i i literally don't five co-founders i i literally don't five co-founders i i literally don't think i've heard i know of of think i've heard i know of of think i've heard i know of of one or two bootstrap companies that have one or two bootstrap companies that have one or two bootstrap companies that have three and i believe three and i believe three and i believe uh producer xander if we have the uh producer xander if we have the uh producer xander if we have the screenshot of the state of independence screenshot of the state of independence screenshot of the state of independence sas sas sas survey from either last year or this survey from either last year or this survey from either last year or this year we year we year we have there's literally out of you know have there's literally out of you know have there's literally out of you know 1500 respondents there 1500 respondents there 1500 respondents there yeah there's just a few that have yeah there's just a few that have yeah there's just a few that have uh three or f i think we put four or uh three or f i think we put four or uh three or f i think we put four or more because no one more because no one more because no one no one ever has five co-founders but the

no one ever has five co-founders but the no one ever has five co-founders but the interesting thing that we'll touch on as interesting thing that we'll touch on as interesting thing that we'll touch on as we're looking at this graph we're looking at this graph we're looking at this graph this graph shows founder count versus this graph shows founder count versus this graph shows founder count versus mrr growth per month over the life of mrr growth per month over the life of mrr growth per month over the life of the product the product the product and if you look at it the more it's just and if you look at it the more it's just and if you look at it the more it's just a straight linear a straight linear a straight linear curve that the more founders co-founders curve that the more founders co-founders curve that the more founders co-founders you know a bootstrapped or mostly you know a bootstrapped or mostly you know a bootstrapped or mostly bootstrap startup has bootstrap startup has bootstrap startup has the faster the the revenue growth so the faster the the revenue growth so the faster the the revenue growth so with all that couched with all that couched with all that couched why five how'd you get there yeah yeah why five how'd you get there yeah yeah why five how'd you get there yeah yeah i mean i also wonder if that chart uh i mean i also wonder if that chart uh i mean i also wonder if that chart uh like like like if they're first time founder or second if they're first time founder or second if they're first time founder or second time founder and it would make any time founder and it would make any time founder and it would make any difference difference difference um but but for us i think that the story um but but for us i think that the story um but but for us i think that the story that put us together was you know every that put us together was you know every that put us together was you know every single single single co-founder was a great friend of mine co-founder was a great friend of mine co-founder was a great friend of mine from from from sometime in the past either job or sometime in the past either job or sometime in the past either job or school school school so we have you know our product engineer so we have you know our product engineer so we have you know our product engineer who does a lot of the front-end pieces who does a lot of the front-end pieces who does a lot of the front-end pieces who i met in high school the first day who i met in high school the first day who i met in high school the first day of school in 2003 of school in 2003 of school in 2003 and you know we kicked it off we took and you know we kicked it off we took and you know we kicked it off we took programming languages to programming languages to programming languages to classes together then our cto was classes together then our cto was classes together then our cto was someone i met in a very small startup in someone i met in a very small startup in someone i met in a very small startup in dc that i worked dc that i worked dc that i worked early 2012. um early 2012. um early 2012. um kevin our customer success uh he kevin our customer success uh he kevin our customer success uh he he was a friend of mine who finished he was a friend of mine who finished he was a friend of mine who finished compsci and and compsci and and compsci and and and our design director who happened to and our design director who happened to and our design director who happened to be my sister be my sister be my sister so the team we initially put it together so the team we initially put it together so the team we initially put it together to build a consulting firm to build a consulting firm to build a consulting firm to build sas products for for businesses to build sas products for for businesses to build sas products for for businesses to to to kind of figure out how we can earn some

kind of figure out how we can earn some kind of figure out how we can earn some recurring revenue off of services once recurring revenue off of services once recurring revenue off of services once we do finish the product we do finish the product we do finish the product and after a year of doing that in 2016 and after a year of doing that in 2016 and after a year of doing that in 2016 we realized like upselling and allowing we realized like upselling and allowing we realized like upselling and allowing customers to customers to customers to uh kind of go through the billing uh kind of go through the billing uh kind of go through the billing process themselves was a process themselves was a process themselves was a pain and just like i mentioned these pain and just like i mentioned these pain and just like i mentioned these subscription billing tools weren't subscription billing tools weren't subscription billing tools weren't really as developed as they were at the really as developed as they were at the really as developed as they were at the time time time so the first two years from 2017 to so the first two years from 2017 to so the first two years from 2017 to end of 2018 it was us really learning end of 2018 it was us really learning end of 2018 it was us really learning the market not knowing to be the market not knowing to be the market not knowing to be you know how to be a founder made every you know how to be a founder made every you know how to be a founder made every single mistake in the books single mistake in the books single mistake in the books um and build an open source platform um and build an open source platform um and build an open source platform um build something very similar to um build something very similar to um build something very similar to charge me and charge a fight charge me and charge a fight charge me and charge a fight that are today and in 2019 we took all that are today and in 2019 we took all that are today and in 2019 we took all that learning we took that learning we took that learning we took you know the five percent of what we've you know the five percent of what we've you know the five percent of what we've built built built that people actually needed and we that people actually needed and we that people actually needed and we pivoted into pivoted into pivoted into building what the product is today so building what the product is today so building what the product is today so the actual product actual business was the actual product actual business was the actual product actual business was launched launched launched um september 2019 so about a year and a um september 2019 so about a year and a um september 2019 so about a year and a month or two ago month or two ago month or two ago yeah what a trip so if i were to start yeah what a trip so if i were to start yeah what a trip so if i were to start a sas company even if i knew four other a sas company even if i knew four other a sas company even if i knew four other people people people who i think would be a fit for it i who i think would be a fit for it i who i think would be a fit for it i would would would my gut would be to either do it myself my gut would be to either do it myself my gut would be to either do it myself as the founder and have them be like as the founder and have them be like as the founder and have them be like first employees or founding engineers first employees or founding engineers first employees or founding engineers or to if one of them maybe my sister or to if one of them maybe my sister or to if one of them maybe my sister you know if i specifically really knew i you know if i specifically really knew i you know if i specifically really knew i got along with her got along with her got along with her to make her a co-founder and everyone to make her a co-founder and everyone to make her a co-founder and everyone else again be like else again be like else again be like fat the term founding engineer is pretty fat the term founding engineer is pretty fat the term founding engineer is pretty common you know someone who's there from

common you know someone who's there from common you know someone who's there from day one but they're not day one but they're not day one but they're not a co-founder because that's such a it a co-founder because that's such a it a co-founder because that's such a it it's a lofty title it's like being it's a lofty title it's like being it's a lofty title it's like being married married married to to a lot of people it's like having a to to a lot of people it's like having a to to a lot of people it's like having a marriage of a lot of people you know in marriage of a lot of people you know in marriage of a lot of people you know in a a a it's not that weird but it is you know it's not that weird but it is you know it's not that weird but it is you know there's a lot of voices and such there there's a lot of voices and such there there's a lot of voices and such there so so so why why go into it as five co-founders why why go into it as five co-founders why why go into it as five co-founders rather than structuring it you know rather than structuring it you know rather than structuring it you know slightly differently slightly differently slightly differently absolutely i mean my whole theory into absolutely i mean my whole theory into absolutely i mean my whole theory into this was this was this was listen i love building stuff i love listen i love building stuff i love listen i love building stuff i love making something that makes an making something that makes an making something that makes an impact and i think if i have four other impact and i think if i have four other impact and i think if i have four other people who are pretty talented people who are pretty talented people who are pretty talented i can get there faster and i'm not doing i can get there faster and i'm not doing i can get there faster and i'm not doing it for the money because if it for the money because if it for the money because if i was trying to make money to build a i was trying to make money to build a i was trying to make money to build a sas that's the worst way of making money sas that's the worst way of making money sas that's the worst way of making money i think i think i think there's much easier ways to do so there's much easier ways to do so there's much easier ways to do so there were of course a lot of challenges there were of course a lot of challenges there were of course a lot of challenges you know into you know into you know into how to split the shares how to um how to split the shares how to um how to split the shares how to um actually actually actually have the task split between the people have the task split between the people have the task split between the people because the hats changed because the hats changed because the hats changed you know we had a pretty the technical you know we had a pretty the technical you know we had a pretty the technical heavy heavy heavy team and that team had to at least team and that team had to at least team and that team had to at least members of the team had to members of the team had to members of the team had to get out of their comfort zone learn get out of their comfort zone learn get out of their comfort zone learn marketing learn these skill sets that marketing learn these skill sets that marketing learn these skill sets that they didn't actually they didn't actually they didn't actually had any clue how to do but you know had any clue how to do but you know had any clue how to do but you know we kept it like a family we kept it very we kept it like a family we kept it very we kept it like a family we kept it very close and um close and um close and um vulnerable and and i think that helped vulnerable and and i think that helped vulnerable and and i think that helped us a lot in us a lot in us a lot in in building something together that in building something together that in building something together that makes us happy rather than makes us happy rather than makes us happy rather than making it feel like a chore making it feel like a chore making it feel like a chore that is interesting i mean you brought that is interesting i mean you brought that is interesting i mean you brought up dividing the shares i think that's

up dividing the shares i think that's up dividing the shares i think that's probably a big question probably a big question probably a big question on a lot of listeners minds in fact i i on a lot of listeners minds in fact i i on a lot of listeners minds in fact i i get pulled into get pulled into get pulled into at least one conversation a month and at least one conversation a month and at least one conversation a month and maybe more maybe more maybe more whether it's on slack or someone emails whether it's on slack or someone emails whether it's on slack or someone emails me directly and they say me directly and they say me directly and they say i have a really good marketer and i want i have a really good marketer and i want i have a really good marketer and i want to give him or her equity how do you to give him or her equity how do you to give him or her equity how do you decide to go about this and it's always decide to go about this and it's always decide to go about this and it's always this it depends but here's some this it depends but here's some this it depends but here's some loose rules of thumb where's your mrr loose rules of thumb where's your mrr loose rules of thumb where's your mrr where are you at you know are you gonna where are you at you know are you gonna where are you at you know are you gonna go big and raise funding are you gonna go big and raise funding are you gonna go big and raise funding are you gonna be bootstrapped all this stuff weighs be bootstrapped all this stuff weighs be bootstrapped all this stuff weighs into it into it into it how did you approach that with five how did you approach that with five how did you approach that with five people to possibly divide up equity in a people to possibly divide up equity in a people to possibly divide up equity in a way that that hopefully makes everyone way that that hopefully makes everyone way that that hopefully makes everyone feel okay about it feel okay about it feel okay about it yeah that was probably one of the yeah that was probably one of the yeah that was probably one of the toughest um hurdles to to go through toughest um hurdles to to go through toughest um hurdles to to go through it was it wasn't easy to say the least it was it wasn't easy to say the least it was it wasn't easy to say the least you know we thought about what the role you know we thought about what the role you know we thought about what the role was at the time was at the time was at the time and um every founder have a very and um every founder have a very and um every founder have a very significant significant significant um part of the the share of the company um part of the the share of the company um part of the the share of the company at the moment at the moment at the moment and i i don't um i i think and i i don't um i i think and i i don't um i i think that's okay if if you're a first-time that's okay if if you're a first-time that's okay if if you're a first-time founder founder founder that's okay if you're you're trying to that's okay if you're you're trying to that's okay if you're you're trying to because it's more about the learning because it's more about the learning because it's more about the learning experience about the journey that you're experience about the journey that you're experience about the journey that you're learning how to build the sas if i stop learning how to build the sas if i stop learning how to build the sas if i stop working on service spot today working on service spot today working on service spot today i can i learn so much that i can build i can i learn so much that i can build i can i learn so much that i can build any other tool as long as i understand any other tool as long as i understand any other tool as long as i understand the market i do my research i talk i the market i do my research i talk i the market i do my research i talk i build my audience you know that learning build my audience you know that learning build my audience you know that learning process is much process is much process is much faster and easier and less burden to faster and easier and less burden to faster and easier and less burden to your lifestyle if if you're your lifestyle if if you're your lifestyle if if you're working with five other people yeah yeah that makes sense so yeah yeah that makes sense so i think the i want to get into platform

i think the i want to get into platform i think the i want to get into platform risk because i think that's a risk because i think that's a risk because i think that's a a big concern um that i would have in a big concern um that i would have in a big concern um that i would have in your shoes but your shoes but your shoes but before we do that i have a question before we do that i have a question before we do that i have a question about about about i'm fascinated by this five percent i'm fascinated by this five percent i'm fascinated by this five percent number that you threw out you said number that you threw out you said number that you threw out you said you you worked on it for a year or two you you worked on it for a year or two you you worked on it for a year or two you almost you almost you almost kind of built a chargify in essence or kind of built a chargify in essence or kind of built a chargify in essence or you built all that functionality and you built all that functionality and you built all that functionality and then then then you said we're gonna take the five you said we're gonna take the five you said we're gonna take the five percent people need most percent people need most percent people need most and and turn it into service bot what and and turn it into service bot what and and turn it into service bot what how did you know how did you come across how did you know how did you come across how did you know how did you come across that and that and that and five percent or ten percent the number five percent or ten percent the number five percent or ten percent the number is unimportant but how did you come is unimportant but how did you come is unimportant but how did you come across the feature set across the feature set across the feature set that you felt like this is what people that you felt like this is what people that you felt like this is what people actually need actually need actually need and and leave out the other 90 95 and and leave out the other 90 95 and and leave out the other 90 95 percent that you built percent that you built percent that you built yeah uh so we we only had a handful of yeah uh so we we only had a handful of yeah uh so we we only had a handful of customers at a time using that platform customers at a time using that platform customers at a time using that platform and even with the and even with the and even with the handful the the technical overhead of handful the the technical overhead of handful the the technical overhead of supporting them supporting them supporting them was significant so that's one of the was significant so that's one of the was significant so that's one of the reasons that the pivot itself was reasons that the pivot itself was reasons that the pivot itself was motivated by um how we picked those motivated by um how we picked those motivated by um how we picked those features was mainly from features was mainly from features was mainly from the hundreds of calls that we went the hundreds of calls that we went the hundreds of calls that we went through with sas businesses and through with sas businesses and through with sas businesses and co-founders co-founders co-founders who told us about like what exactly who told us about like what exactly who told us about like what exactly their problem was and it their problem was and it their problem was and it every time ended up being the onboarding every time ended up being the onboarding every time ended up being the onboarding flow of hey i have a freemium or free flow of hey i have a freemium or free flow of hey i have a freemium or free trial and i want to have them self-serve trial and i want to have them self-serve trial and i want to have them self-serve their their their subscriptions um so we looked at it and subscriptions um so we looked at it and subscriptions um so we looked at it and the one thing that popped up was this the one thing that popped up was this the one thing that popped up was this thing called customer portal thing called customer portal thing called customer portal at the time uh this is a year year and a at the time uh this is a year year and a at the time uh this is a year year and a half ago half ago half ago and we said okay how long does it take and we said okay how long does it take and we said okay how long does it take us to build it it took about like two us to build it it took about like two us to build it it took about like two we allocated about two months of time to we allocated about two months of time to we allocated about two months of time to to polish something super small but but

to polish something super small but but to polish something super small but but like like like hitting the right pain point that we've hitting the right pain point that we've hitting the right pain point that we've seen we contacted all the people that seen we contacted all the people that seen we contacted all the people that told us had that problem before we told us had that problem before we told us had that problem before we launched and that was the kickoff to launched and that was the kickoff to launched and that was the kickoff to to a really good start of you know to a really good start of you know to a really good start of you know gaining like 20 30 businesses who who gaining like 20 30 businesses who who gaining like 20 30 businesses who who really needed it really needed it really needed it who onward it with us right away within who onward it with us right away within who onward it with us right away within the first few months the first few months the first few months when you were building it the five of when you were building it the five of when you were building it the five of you were you working day jobs and you were you working day jobs and you were you working day jobs and building on the side building on the side building on the side oh yeah absolutely absolutely even till oh yeah absolutely absolutely even till oh yeah absolutely absolutely even till now not all the founders are now not all the founders are now not all the founders are full-time um but we do just you know do full-time um but we do just you know do full-time um but we do just you know do a lot of consulting on the side a lot of consulting on the side a lot of consulting on the side who you know whichever founder that who you know whichever founder that who you know whichever founder that needs to be able to balance that needs to be able to balance that needs to be able to balance that lifestyle lifestyle lifestyle um that was one of the biggest um that was one of the biggest um that was one of the biggest challenges i would say challenges i would say challenges i would say that's what i was going to ask today that's what i was going to ask today that's what i was going to ask today that was my next question is of the five that was my next question is of the five that was my next question is of the five founders how many are working full-time founders how many are working full-time founders how many are working full-time at this point at this point at this point and i think piggybacking on that can you and i think piggybacking on that can you and i think piggybacking on that can you give us an idea give us an idea give us an idea of of where the product is whether you of of where the product is whether you of of where the product is whether you can give mrr whether you can give can give mrr whether you can give can give mrr whether you can give customer account just some idea customer account just some idea customer account just some idea you know to give us the stage yeah you know to give us the stage yeah you know to give us the stage yeah absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely so the um absolutely so the um absolutely so the um the full-time piece we have two the full-time piece we have two the full-time piece we have two full-time two going full time full-time two going full time full-time two going full time in february and one who's kind of in february and one who's kind of in february and one who's kind of consulting in consulting in consulting in on the site um but but to be honest we on the site um but but to be honest we on the site um but but to be honest we all put all put all put at least you know the 30 40 hours a week at least you know the 30 40 hours a week at least you know the 30 40 hours a week on it even with the side on it even with the side on it even with the side project as you could imagine um project as you could imagine um project as you could imagine um billing is a very complex product i billing is a very complex product i billing is a very complex product i would say

would say would say um regarding the traction um i'm um regarding the traction um i'm um regarding the traction um i'm actually very open actually very open actually very open with you know sharing our numbers i with you know sharing our numbers i with you know sharing our numbers i think that's important we think that's important we think that's important we you know starting ground zero on you know starting ground zero on you know starting ground zero on september september september today we have 125 today we have 125 today we have 125 paying subscribers who are actually sas paying subscribers who are actually sas paying subscribers who are actually sas businesses who are using it over 2000 businesses who are using it over 2000 businesses who are using it over 2000 accounts accounts accounts and i think about north of 1213k mrr at and i think about north of 1213k mrr at and i think about north of 1213k mrr at the moment the moment the moment good for you nice that's that's a nice good for you nice that's that's a nice good for you nice that's that's a nice little bit of traction little bit of traction little bit of traction so in terms of platform risk you've so in terms of platform risk you've so in terms of platform risk you've built on top of stripe built on top of stripe built on top of stripe and stripe over the years has had a lot and stripe over the years has had a lot and stripe over the years has had a lot of folks of folks of folks build things like you know let's say build things like you know let's say build things like you know let's say barometric building metrics and then barometric building metrics and then barometric building metrics and then stripe slowly rolling out better and stripe slowly rolling out better and stripe slowly rolling out better and better metrics dashboards and better metrics dashboards and better metrics dashboards and chargify and recurly building chargify and recurly building chargify and recurly building subscription management and subscription management and subscription management and or you know subscription billing and or you know subscription billing and or you know subscription billing and then stripe rolling it out and i don't i then stripe rolling it out and i don't i then stripe rolling it out and i don't i don't don't don't think stripe is doing it uh maliciously think stripe is doing it uh maliciously think stripe is doing it uh maliciously it's just where i would take their it's just where i would take their it's just where i would take their product if i was running it too right product if i was running it too right product if i was running it too right there's a next logical step in a lot of there's a next logical step in a lot of there's a next logical step in a lot of this so how do you think about this so how do you think about this so how do you think about the platform risk associated with with the platform risk associated with with the platform risk associated with with what you've built what you've built what you've built and you know as to whether stripe and you know as to whether stripe and you know as to whether stripe are they gonna are gonna one day build are they gonna are gonna one day build are they gonna are gonna one day build you know essentially build what you've you know essentially build what you've you know essentially build what you've built and potentially uh built and potentially uh built and potentially uh hurt your business yeah i think the key hurt your business yeah i think the key hurt your business yeah i think the key word there is word there is word there is is one day um but going back to your is one day um but going back to your is one day um but going back to your bare metrics example here i think that's bare metrics example here i think that's bare metrics example here i think that's a great example i think baremetrics a great example i think baremetrics a great example i think baremetrics i think is a great product i love what i think is a great product i love what i think is a great product i love what josh has done and he actually sold

josh has done and he actually sold josh has done and he actually sold yesterday yesterday yesterday but um i think baremetrics but um i think baremetrics but um i think baremetrics could have built a analytic tool that could have built a analytic tool that could have built a analytic tool that was on the cutting edge and had more was on the cutting edge and had more was on the cutting edge and had more features than features than features than it did to begin with and and pushing the it did to begin with and and pushing the it did to begin with and and pushing the boundaries against what strike actually boundaries against what strike actually boundaries against what strike actually came out with today came out with today came out with today there's still a lot of features that there's still a lot of features that there's still a lot of features that stripe does not have stripe does not have stripe does not have to date that i need myself to be able to to date that i need myself to be able to to date that i need myself to be able to track my metrics i can't see my track my metrics i can't see my track my metrics i can't see my expansions my contract i have to expansions my contract i have to expansions my contract i have to still go use something like profit well still go use something like profit well still go use something like profit well chart mogul chart mogul chart mogul um and and that being said um and and that being said um and and that being said it really depends on the vision so if it really depends on the vision so if it really depends on the vision so if you have a really you have a really you have a really big vision of making something happen big vision of making something happen big vision of making something happen sticking to a big whale like sticking to a big whale like sticking to a big whale like you know stripe it makes a lot of sense you know stripe it makes a lot of sense you know stripe it makes a lot of sense because you can move a lot faster you because you can move a lot faster you because you can move a lot faster you can can can you can build things without actually you can build things without actually you can build things without actually having to take on the having to take on the having to take on the the heavy load of building the feature the heavy load of building the feature the heavy load of building the feature set themselves you just set themselves you just set themselves you just you know right right the wave with with you know right right the wave with with you know right right the wave with with them um them um them um so that's that's that's kind of the so that's that's that's kind of the so that's that's that's kind of the mentality behind it but mentality behind it but mentality behind it but looking at if stripes going to build it looking at if stripes going to build it looking at if stripes going to build it maybe you know in the next two years maybe you know in the next two years maybe you know in the next two years three years three years three years but we love what they're doing we um we but we love what they're doing we um we but we love what they're doing we um we love the fact that they love the fact that they love the fact that they came out with the checkout and customer came out with the checkout and customer came out with the checkout and customer portal because those do handle some use portal because those do handle some use portal because those do handle some use cases cases cases that for for personas that we don't that for for personas that we don't that for for personas that we don't actually actually actually work with but what it does for us is it work with but what it does for us is it work with but what it does for us is it opens up the market so we can opens up the market so we can opens up the market so we can easily say what we are rather than easily say what we are rather than easily say what we are rather than building um building um building um around the awareness piece of you know around the awareness piece of you know around the awareness piece of you know this is a no code billing solution

this is a no code billing solution this is a no code billing solution if you look at the biggest competitor if you look at the biggest competitor if you look at the biggest competitor that we have today it is not that we have today it is not that we have today it is not um any of the products that are out um any of the products that are out um any of the products that are out there it's actually the in-house there it's actually the in-house there it's actually the in-house integrations that people build with integrations that people build with integrations that people build with stripe because they don't know stripe because they don't know stripe because they don't know that anything exists outside of that so that anything exists outside of that so that anything exists outside of that so there's so much up there's so much up there's so much up market opportunity in my opinion and i market opportunity in my opinion and i market opportunity in my opinion and i think being think being think being on top of the most powerful billing on top of the most powerful billing on top of the most powerful billing infrastructure in the internet is going infrastructure in the internet is going infrastructure in the internet is going to give us a lot of um to give us a lot of um to give us a lot of um leeway to to grow leeway to to grow leeway to to grow we have a question in the chat from we have a question in the chat from we have a question in the chat from pablo pablo pablo he asks do you ever find yourself voting he asks do you ever find yourself voting he asks do you ever find yourself voting to make decisions obviously you know to make decisions obviously you know to make decisions obviously you know with the idea of hey if there's with the idea of hey if there's with the idea of hey if there's five co-founders and there's a big five co-founders and there's a big five co-founders and there's a big decision to be made decision to be made decision to be made does it come down to voting or do you does it come down to voting or do you does it come down to voting or do you find consensus or do you have as the ceo find consensus or do you have as the ceo find consensus or do you have as the ceo have you had to assume make it make a have you had to assume make it make a have you had to assume make it make a call call call you know that when there is not you know that when there is not you know that when there is not consensus 100 consensus 100 consensus 100 voting every single time they're very voting every single time they're very voting every single time they're very rarely there are cases where rarely there are cases where rarely there are cases where there's a split between five people that there's a split between five people that there's a split between five people that you know you know you know four people and i i would have to make four people and i i would have to make four people and i i would have to make the call i think most of the time we all the call i think most of the time we all the call i think most of the time we all agree on the decisions agree on the decisions agree on the decisions got it the next question got it the next question got it the next question is i have well so is i have well so is i have well so with the platform risk in mind have you with the platform risk in mind have you with the platform risk in mind have you encountered any instances where encountered any instances where encountered any instances where essentially stripe has chipped away at essentially stripe has chipped away at essentially stripe has chipped away at your product value your product value your product value have they built any of your features yet have they built any of your features yet have they built any of your features yet to date to date to date yeah so the customer folder when you

yeah so the customer folder when you yeah so the customer folder when you know that was released know that was released know that was released obviously we had people who are asking obviously we had people who are asking obviously we had people who are asking us about it but i also see that as a us about it but i also see that as a us about it but i also see that as a good thing for us because good thing for us because good thing for us because it pushed us to really focus on that it pushed us to really focus on that it pushed us to really focus on that persona that we were going after persona that we were going after persona that we were going after like if you're a solo founder you know like if you're a solo founder you know like if you're a solo founder you know you have no you have no you have no customers at the moment you are somewhat customers at the moment you are somewhat customers at the moment you are somewhat technical technical technical um we tell you you don't need to um we tell you you don't need to um we tell you you don't need to self-serve your subscriptions that's not self-serve your subscriptions that's not self-serve your subscriptions that's not your problem your problem is you got to your problem your problem is you got to your problem your problem is you got to get out there and get get out there and get get out there and get your customers right so if you want to your customers right so if you want to your customers right so if you want to you know put something fast and and you know put something fast and and you know put something fast and and you you know you could you could just you you know you could you could just you you know you could you could just use the strike checkout and send an use the strike checkout and send an use the strike checkout and send an invoice to people and have them invoice to people and have them invoice to people and have them pay for it um if you're a larger sas pay for it um if you're a larger sas pay for it um if you're a larger sas business who business who business who is looking to um self-serve because is looking to um self-serve because is looking to um self-serve because you're you're you're you're tired of sending manual invoices you're tired of sending manual invoices you're tired of sending manual invoices or managing the billing yourself or or managing the billing yourself or or managing the billing yourself or subscribing people subscribing people subscribing people um that's when you're actually going to um that's when you're actually going to um that's when you're actually going to find a lot of value into our products find a lot of value into our products find a lot of value into our products because they're because they're because they're the bells and whistles that comes with the bells and whistles that comes with the bells and whistles that comes with it for example if someone turn it for example if someone turn it for example if someone turn um you want to know why they turn right um you want to know why they turn right um you want to know why they turn right that's part of the customer portal that's part of the customer portal that's part of the customer portal that's part of allowing that's part of allowing that's part of allowing the user doing those modifications to the user doing those modifications to the user doing those modifications to your onboarding flow and and your chair your onboarding flow and and your chair your onboarding flow and and your chair and retention and retention and retention that doesn't come out of a box with that doesn't come out of a box with that doesn't come out of a box with these tools um these tools um these tools um so yeah yeah i think it just aligns us so yeah yeah i think it just aligns us so yeah yeah i think it just aligns us more with our vision more with our vision more with our vision producer xander spoke with you prior to producer xander spoke with you prior to producer xander spoke with you prior to this interview to kind of get your story this interview to kind of get your story this interview to kind of get your story and shape some of these questions and and shape some of these questions and and shape some of these questions and he mentioned to me that you've he mentioned to me that you've he mentioned to me that you've essentially launched a v2 of service bot essentially launched a v2 of service bot essentially launched a v2 of service bot and that that may have shifted and that that may have shifted and that that may have shifted responsibilities among the co-founders

responsibilities among the co-founders responsibilities among the co-founders you want to talk to me about that yeah you want to talk to me about that yeah you want to talk to me about that yeah that's a great question that's a great question that's a great question yeah so like two of the biggest changes yeah so like two of the biggest changes yeah so like two of the biggest changes was my sister who was the designer she was my sister who was the designer she was my sister who was the designer she she handled the product design and the she handled the product design and the she handled the product design and the website website website but after that was done you know we but after that was done you know we but after that was done you know we don't need to stick with design don't need to stick with design don't need to stick with design you know the necessity at the time was you know the necessity at the time was you know the necessity at the time was we need to put tutorials and how to we need to put tutorials and how to we need to put tutorials and how to videos and videos and videos and content around like how do you get value content around like how do you get value content around like how do you get value out of this product out there out of this product out there out of this product out there and so as our cto he built a great and so as our cto he built a great and so as our cto he built a great infrastructure but we really needed infrastructure but we really needed infrastructure but we really needed someone who can write and put content someone who can write and put content someone who can write and put content out so did out so did out so did most of myself and the two other most of myself and the two other most of myself and the two other co-founders were really pushing the co-founders were really pushing the co-founders were really pushing the marketing level at the moment and marketing level at the moment and marketing level at the moment and you know the product and customer you know the product and customer you know the product and customer success success success seemed to be a great fit at the time so seemed to be a great fit at the time so seemed to be a great fit at the time so those those those responsibilities did not change yeah responsibilities did not change yeah responsibilities did not change yeah that's i was going to ask you that that's i was going to ask you that that's i was going to ask you that speaking of marketing speaking of marketing speaking of marketing because you're the ceo then you have a because you're the ceo then you have a because you're the ceo then you have a product engineer a cto product engineer a cto product engineer a cto a customer success and a design director a customer success and a design director a customer success and a design director i would imagine on a team of when i i would imagine on a team of when i i would imagine on a team of when i think of think of think of the ideal dream team for a sas app you the ideal dream team for a sas app you the ideal dream team for a sas app you often have often have often have a developer you often have maybe a a developer you often have maybe a a developer you often have maybe a designer you have a subject matter designer you have a subject matter designer you have a subject matter expert expert expert and you have someone who's good at and you have someone who's good at and you have someone who's good at marketing and or marketing and or marketing and or sales and those are not those are sales and those are not those are sales and those are not those are usually like one or two people it's all usually like one or two people it's all usually like one or two people it's all crammed into you know just a couple crammed into you know just a couple crammed into you know just a couple but you don't have anyone with a lot of but you don't have anyone with a lot of but you don't have anyone with a lot of at least we've described a lot of at least we've described a lot of at least we've described a lot of marketing expertise marketing expertise marketing expertise on the team or or do you is that your on the team or or do you is that your on the team or or do you is that your role role role that was supposed to be uh

that was supposed to be uh that was supposed to be uh a co-founder's role but we did not have a co-founder's role but we did not have a co-founder's role but we did not have the skill set so we the skill set so we the skill set so we we spent about a year so i i personally we spent about a year so i i personally we spent about a year so i i personally spent about spent about spent about a year and a half to just a year and a half to just a year and a half to just take marketing courses learn exactly take marketing courses learn exactly take marketing courses learn exactly what it's all about read what it's all about read what it's all about read read the you know the books that you read the you know the books that you read the you know the books that you need to read about the positioning by need to read about the positioning by need to read about the positioning by april dunford i totally recommend that april dunford i totally recommend that april dunford i totally recommend that the the the traction obviously that every founder traction obviously that every founder traction obviously that every founder should know about should know about should know about uh you know and learn exactly what it is uh you know and learn exactly what it is uh you know and learn exactly what it is all about and and teach that to all about and and teach that to all about and and teach that to to the co-founders who are going to to the co-founders who are going to to the co-founders who are going to moving towards the moving towards the moving towards the the marketing path um and i think that the marketing path um and i think that the marketing path um and i think that that was a great learning experience that was a great learning experience that was a great learning experience that's one of those things that that's one of those things that that's one of those things that you know i can i can go start any you know i can i can go start any you know i can i can go start any business after this and i'll be business after this and i'll be business after this and i'll be very confident that i i i wouldn't make very confident that i i i wouldn't make very confident that i i i wouldn't make the same mistakes twice the same mistakes twice the same mistakes twice yeah it's really nice to build that tool yeah it's really nice to build that tool yeah it's really nice to build that tool belt i talk about that a lot belt i talk about that a lot belt i talk about that a lot because once you have that tool belt you because once you have that tool belt you because once you have that tool belt you can apply it to your next app can apply it to your next app can apply it to your next app and your next app and even if it's not and your next app and even if it's not and your next app and even if it's not an app i mean these days i don't run sas an app i mean these days i don't run sas an app i mean these days i don't run sas but but but a lot of the branding positioning a lot of the branding positioning a lot of the branding positioning copywriting the management stuff copywriting the management stuff copywriting the management stuff i use i i used to run you know help run i use i i used to run you know help run i use i i used to run you know help run microconf run tiny seed microconf run tiny seed microconf run tiny seed and and all that other stuff so it and and all that other stuff so it and and all that other stuff so it translates well translates well translates well char thank you so much for joining the char thank you so much for joining the char thank you so much for joining the show today we're at time already show today we're at time already show today we're at time already i'm going to pronounce your last name i'm going to pronounce your last name i'm going to pronounce your last name again you tell me if i got it shard again you tell me if i got it shard again you tell me if i got it shard darafsha darafsha darafsha that's perfect all right nailed it so that's perfect all right nailed it so that's perfect all right nailed it so you're you're you're dirachshashar on twitter folks dirachshashar on twitter folks dirachshashar on twitter folks uh might be able to see that in your uh might be able to see that in your uh might be able to see that in your lower third there you are and lower third there you are and lower third there you are and service bot underscore io also on

service bot underscore io also on service bot underscore io also on twitter twitter twitter thanks so much for joining me today sir thanks so much for joining me today sir thanks so much for joining me today sir it was a pleasure it was a pleasure it was a pleasure thank you as thank you as thank you as producer xander takes us out with our producer xander takes us out with our producer xander takes us out with our microconf theme i want to mention the microconf theme i want to mention the microconf theme i want to mention the sas podcast awards we heard about him at sas podcast awards we heard about him at sas podcast awards we heard about him at the top of the show the top of the show the top of the show with the fun little promo video with the fun little promo video with the fun little promo video uh all about sas podcast awards so uh all about sas podcast awards so uh all about sas podcast awards so accesspodcastawards.com you can head accesspodcastawards.com you can head accesspodcastawards.com you can head over over over please nominate there's four different please nominate there's four different please nominate there's four different categories nominate some folks categories nominate some folks categories nominate some folks we're hoping to shine the light on some we're hoping to shine the light on some we're hoping to shine the light on some podcasts in our space podcasts in our space podcasts in our space also as always thank you to hay and also as always thank you to hay and also as always thank you to hay and stripe stripe stripe they make everything we do just a little they make everything we do just a little they make everything we do just a little bit easier they are our headline bit easier they are our headline bit easier they are our headline partners for the year and microconf partners for the year and microconf partners for the year and microconf loves being partnered with them loves being partnered with them loves being partnered with them i look forward to seeing you next i look forward to seeing you next i look forward to seeing you next wednesday same time wednesday same time wednesday same time same place see you then same place see you then same place see you then [Music]