Finding Product-Market Fit in a Competitive Market with Derrick Reimer — MicroConf On Air

And we are live. Welcome back to today's And we are live. Welcome back to today's episode of MicroCom on Air. I'm your episode of MicroCom on Air. I'm your episode of MicroCom on Air. I'm your host Rob Walling. As you know, every host Rob Walling. As you know, every host Rob Walling. As you know, every Wednesday we live stream for about 30 Wednesday we live stream for about 30 Wednesday we live stream for about 30 minutes and we talk about topics related minutes and we talk about topics related minutes and we talk about topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS to building and growing ambitious SAS to building and growing ambitious SAS startups that don't require us to work startups that don't require us to work startups that don't require us to work 80hour weeks, raise crazy amounts of 80hour weeks, raise crazy amounts of 80hour weeks, raise crazy amounts of venture capital, frankly burn ourselves venture capital, frankly burn ourselves venture capital, frankly burn ourselves or our relationships out. And we want to or our relationships out. And we want to or our relationships out. And we want to be ambitious, but you know, we don't be ambitious, but you know, we don't be ambitious, but you know, we don't want to burn the candle at both ends and want to burn the candle at both ends and want to burn the candle at both ends and wind up uh kind of living an unhappy wind up uh kind of living an unhappy wind up uh kind of living an unhappy life. We have a long-term mindset. So, life. We have a long-term mindset. So, life. We have a long-term mindset. So, we think in terms of years, not months, we think in terms of years, not months, we think in terms of years, not months, and we seek freedom, purpose, and and we seek freedom, purpose, and and we seek freedom, purpose, and relationships. Thank you so much for relationships. Thank you so much for relationships. Thank you so much for joining me on the live stream again joining me on the live stream again joining me on the live stream again today. As a reminder, if you miss any of today. As a reminder, if you miss any of today. As a reminder, if you miss any of these live streams, they are available these live streams, they are available these live streams, they are available asynchronously on that's like the worst asynchronously on that's like the worst asynchronously on that's like the worst marketing word ever. They're available marketing word ever. They're available marketing word ever. They're available on a podcast feed called MicroCom onair. on a podcast feed called MicroCom onair. on a podcast feed called MicroCom onair. You can search that in any podcaster or You can search that in any podcaster or You can search that in any podcaster or you can just type in microcpodcast.com you can just type in microcpodcast.com you can just type in microcpodcast.com and every Thursday morning you will hear and every Thursday morning you will hear and every Thursday morning you will hear this show appearing there. Today we got this show appearing there. Today we got this show appearing there. Today we got a good topic. It's title is finding a good topic. It's title is finding a good topic. It's title is finding product market fit in a competitive product market fit in a competitive product market fit in a competitive space and my guest today is Mr. Derek space and my guest today is Mr. Derek space and my guest today is Mr. Derek Rhyr. You've probably heard of him. He's Rhyr. You've probably heard of him. He's Rhyr. You've probably heard of him. He's the co-founder of Drip. He is uh someone the co-founder of Drip. He is uh someone the co-founder of Drip. He is uh someone just pointed out nice tie Rob. So I just pointed out nice tie Rob. So I just pointed out nice tie Rob. So I dressed up for the show today. I don't dressed up for the show today. I don't dressed up for the show today. I don't normally wear a tie. Completely normally wear a tie. Completely normally wear a tie. Completely coincidental actually that I I grabbed coincidental actually that I I grabbed coincidental actually that I I grabbed this shirt. It happened to match this shirt. It happened to match this shirt. It happened to match something else I was wearing. So, um something else I was wearing. So, um something else I was wearing. So, um Derek and I started Drip together back Derek and I started Drip together back Derek and I started Drip together back in the day. Um I met him when he was I in the day. Um I met him when he was I in the day. Um I met him when he was I think he was like 22 23 years old in

think he was like 22 23 years old in think he was like 22 23 years old in Fresno and he was a a savvy programmer Fresno and he was a a savvy programmer Fresno and he was a a savvy programmer and had taught himself design as well and had taught himself design as well and had taught himself design as well and we started collaborating on a few and we started collaborating on a few and we started collaborating on a few things and um he was the fir wrote the things and um he was the fir wrote the things and um he was the fir wrote the first lines of code on drip way back in first lines of code on drip way back in first lines of code on drip way back in 2012. So co-founder of Drip, he is the 2012. So co-founder of Drip, he is the 2012. So co-founder of Drip, he is the founder of Savvycal, which is a founder of Savvycal, which is a founder of Savvycal, which is a calendaring calendaring and scheduling calendaring calendaring and scheduling calendaring calendaring and scheduling app that we'll be talking about today as app that we'll be talking about today as app that we'll be talking about today as he's entering this, you know, this he's entering this, you know, this he's entering this, you know, this competitive space. And he is the co-host competitive space. And he is the co-host competitive space. And he is the co-host of the art of product podcast. Uh if of the art of product podcast. Uh if of the art of product podcast. Uh if you're not checking that out, you can you're not checking that out, you can you're not checking that out, you can hear he him and Ben Ornstein, co-founder hear he him and Ben Ornstein, co-founder hear he him and Ben Ornstein, co-founder of Tupel, talk through their struggles, of Tupel, talk through their struggles, of Tupel, talk through their struggles, victories, and failures every week on victories, and failures every week on victories, and failures every week on the art of product. So if you're the art of product. So if you're the art of product. So if you're interested in uh finding out more interested in uh finding out more interested in uh finding out more savvy.com savvy.com savvy.com savv ycal savv ycal savv ycal and that is as I said it's scheduling um and that is as I said it's scheduling um and that is as I said it's scheduling um Derek is entering a pretty crowded space Derek is entering a pretty crowded space Derek is entering a pretty crowded space and looking to uh innovate in there and and looking to uh innovate in there and and looking to uh innovate in there and compete with a lot of you know compete with a lot of you know compete with a lot of you know incumbents and that's what we're going incumbents and that's what we're going incumbents and that's what we're going to be talking about today. If you have to be talking about today. If you have to be talking about today. If you have questions for Derek or myself, please questions for Derek or myself, please questions for Derek or myself, please microconnect.com microconnect.com microconnect.com or if you're probably already in or if you're probably already in or if you're probably already in Microcom Connect, go to the MicroCom Microcom Connect, go to the MicroCom Microcom Connect, go to the MicroCom onair channel and um type in a question.

onair channel and um type in a question. onair channel and um type in a question. That's the beauty of doing this format That's the beauty of doing this format That's the beauty of doing this format live and not just having Dererick and I live and not just having Dererick and I live and not just having Dererick and I record a podcast, which we've done many record a podcast, which we've done many record a podcast, which we've done many times, is that you're able to interact times, is that you're able to interact times, is that you're able to interact and ask questions live. So, with that, and ask questions live. So, with that, and ask questions live. So, with that, I'd love to uh welcome my friend Derek I'd love to uh welcome my friend Derek I'd love to uh welcome my friend Derek Rhyr to the show. Man, how's it going? Rhyr to the show. Man, how's it going? Rhyr to the show. Man, how's it going? Good. Thanks for having me. And um you Good. Thanks for having me. And um you Good. Thanks for having me. And um you should have given me the memo about should have given me the memo about should have given me the memo about wearing the drip shirts, man. I could wearing the drip shirts, man. I could wearing the drip shirts, man. I could have brought my shirt. have brought my shirt. have brought my shirt. We could we could have matched. I had to We could we could have matched. I had to We could we could have matched. I had to think of that. We I got to do that. think of that. We I got to do that. think of that. We I got to do that. There's very few guests that I share a There's very few guests that I share a There's very few guests that I share a shirt with. I bet we have like four shirt with. I bet we have like four shirt with. I bet we have like four different because you have I still have different because you have I still have different because you have I still have the level shirt that you gave me. Level the level shirt that you gave me. Level the level shirt that you gave me. Level rest in peace. rest in peace. rest in peace. And we have multiple drip shirts in And we have multiple drip shirts in And we have multiple drip shirts in Yeah. in common. So cool, man. Thanks Yeah. in common. So cool, man. Thanks Yeah. in common. So cool, man. Thanks for coming on the show today. for coming on the show today. for coming on the show today. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So, we're going to talk about um Yeah. So, we're going to talk about um Yeah. So, we're going to talk about um Savvy Calal, which you know it competes Savvy Calal, which you know it competes Savvy Calal, which you know it competes with Calendarly and schedule. Well, with Calendarly and schedule. Well, with Calendarly and schedule. Well, what's the other one called? What's the what's the other one called? What's the what's the other one called? What's the big one? The big two calendar apps. big one? The big two calendar apps. big one? The big two calendar apps. Book me. Book me. Book me. Uh Uh Uh yeah, you can book me. yeah, you can book me. yeah, you can book me. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Acuity is one I was thinking of. Acuity is one I was thinking of. Acuity is one I was thinking of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a big space. There's Yeah. But it's a big space. There's Yeah. But it's a big space. There's there's many players and there's many there's many players and there's many there's many players and there's many big players. I mean, Calendarly is a big players. I mean, Calendarly is a big players. I mean, Calendarly is a massive massive or so. So, I think to massive massive or so. So, I think to massive massive or so. So, I think to kick us off, it's you know why you had a kick us off, it's you know why you had a kick us off, it's you know why you had a choice to enter any space. you know, choice to enter any space. you know, choice to enter any space. you know, after we exited Drip, you could kind of after we exited Drip, you could kind of after we exited Drip, you could kind of do whatever you wanted and you entered do whatever you wanted and you entered do whatever you wanted and you entered a, you know, enter space as competitive a, you know, enter space as competitive a, you know, enter space as competitive as calendaring. So, why enter such a as calendaring. So, why enter such a as calendaring. So, why enter such a crowded market?

crowded market? crowded market? Yeah. So, I've had, I mean, kind of a a Yeah. So, I've had, I mean, kind of a a Yeah. So, I've had, I mean, kind of a a decently long journey that we'll decently long journey that we'll decently long journey that we'll probably touch on. Well, it feels like a probably touch on. Well, it feels like a probably touch on. Well, it feels like a long time since leaving Drip of uh of long time since leaving Drip of uh of long time since leaving Drip of uh of trying a bunch of different things, but trying a bunch of different things, but trying a bunch of different things, but you know, ultimately kind of landed on you know, ultimately kind of landed on you know, ultimately kind of landed on this this current playbook of the this this current playbook of the this this current playbook of the competitive space because I mean it competitive space because I mean it competitive space because I mean it really comes down to the fact that like really comes down to the fact that like really comes down to the fact that like there's a lot of um like a lot of there's a lot of um like a lot of there's a lot of um like a lot of competition in a space tends to competition in a space tends to competition in a space tends to correlate with a really large active correlate with a really large active correlate with a really large active market and um you know that's something market and um you know that's something market and um you know that's something that I think a lot of bootstrappers kind that I think a lot of bootstrappers kind that I think a lot of bootstrappers kind of uh don't necessar like fear um of uh don't necessar like fear um of uh don't necessar like fear um entering into. you know, a lot of us entering into. you know, a lot of us entering into. you know, a lot of us kind of tend to look for, you know, kind kind of tend to look for, you know, kind kind of tend to look for, you know, kind of niche opportunities that maybe is not of niche opportunities that maybe is not of niche opportunities that maybe is not on anybody's radar and there's not a lot on anybody's radar and there's not a lot on anybody's radar and there's not a lot of competition, but I think um that of competition, but I think um that of competition, but I think um that often leads to, you know, um crickets often leads to, you know, um crickets often leads to, you know, um crickets like launching something and no one like launching something and no one like launching something and no one really caring about it. So, to me, like really caring about it. So, to me, like really caring about it. So, to me, like like the competitive space is just an like the competitive space is just an like the competitive space is just an indicator that that there's there's a indicator that that there's there's a indicator that that there's there's a lot of opportunity here and um you know, lot of opportunity here and um you know, lot of opportunity here and um you know, there's a a broad range of different there's a a broad range of different there's a a broad range of different users of these kinds of tools. And so users of these kinds of tools. And so users of these kinds of tools. And so one thing I recognized when I was kind one thing I recognized when I was kind one thing I recognized when I was kind of vetting different spaces to go into of vetting different spaces to go into of vetting different spaces to go into is that um you know a lot of the tools is that um you know a lot of the tools is that um you know a lot of the tools are extremely broadly positioned and so are extremely broadly positioned and so are extremely broadly positioned and so they're kind of general purpose and a they're kind of general purpose and a they're kind of general purpose and a lot of times that's a sign that like lot of times that's a sign that like lot of times that's a sign that like they're maybe not serving the needs of they're maybe not serving the needs of they're maybe not serving the needs of every particular subniche within the every particular subniche within the every particular subniche within the market um super well and and there's a market um super well and and there's a market um super well and and there's a lot of incumbents who have been around lot of incumbents who have been around lot of incumbents who have been around for a number of years and as we learned for a number of years and as we learned for a number of years and as we learned from our drip experience with with the from our drip experience with with the from our drip experience with with the likes of infusionoft and and players likes of infusionoft and and players likes of infusionoft and and players like that, they tend to calcify over

like that, they tend to calcify over like that, they tend to calcify over time a bit. And um you know, anyone time a bit. And um you know, anyone time a bit. And um you know, anyone who's run an app for a number of years who's run an app for a number of years who's run an app for a number of years knows that you start to get kind of knows that you start to get kind of knows that you start to get kind of bound by legacy and and that does bound by legacy and and that does bound by legacy and and that does inhibit your ability to move quickly to, inhibit your ability to move quickly to, inhibit your ability to move quickly to, you know, listen to like a a particular you know, listen to like a a particular you know, listen to like a a particular niche of customers that you have and niche of customers that you have and niche of customers that you have and their pain points because now you're their pain points because now you're their pain points because now you're trying to, you know, build a product trying to, you know, build a product trying to, you know, build a product that satisfies the needs of everybody in that satisfies the needs of everybody in that satisfies the needs of everybody in your market. So I think that, you know, your market. So I think that, you know, your market. So I think that, you know, presents a lot of opportunity for kind presents a lot of opportunity for kind presents a lot of opportunity for kind of a scrappy newcomer to um to hone in of a scrappy newcomer to um to hone in of a scrappy newcomer to um to hone in on a particular set of um set of pain on a particular set of um set of pain on a particular set of um set of pain points people have. points people have. points people have. Yeah, there you you touched on a couple Yeah, there you you touched on a couple Yeah, there you you touched on a couple things there. I mean, I think I want to things there. I mean, I think I want to things there. I mean, I think I want to start with, you know, if we go back to start with, you know, if we go back to start with, you know, if we go back to my book, Start Small, Stay Small, my book, Start Small, Stay Small, my book, Start Small, Stay Small, written in 2010. It talks a lot about written in 2010. It talks a lot about written in 2010. It talks a lot about entering these really small niches and entering these really small niches and entering these really small niches and staying away from big competitive spaces staying away from big competitive spaces staying away from big competitive spaces because if you're an individual because if you're an individual because if you're an individual bootstrapper, especially if you're bootstrapper, especially if you're bootstrapper, especially if you're early, I mean, this is pre-stair early, I mean, this is pre-stair early, I mean, this is pre-stair stepping. I hadn't talked about it yet, stepping. I hadn't talked about it yet, stepping. I hadn't talked about it yet, but that would fit well into that book. but that would fit well into that book. but that would fit well into that book. But you know, are there niches where you But you know, are there niches where you But you know, are there niches where you can build a two5 $10,000 a month can build a two5 $10,000 a month can build a two5 $10,000 a month business that are really small and not business that are really small and not business that are really small and not very competitive? Yes, absolutely there very competitive? Yes, absolutely there very competitive? Yes, absolutely there are. Your goals are different than that.

are. Your goals are different than that. are. Your goals are different than that. You have been there, done that. You've You have been there, done that. You've You have been there, done that. You've had with Code Tree, you had a low six had with Code Tree, you had a low six had with Code Tree, you had a low six figure exit with Drip, obviously a much figure exit with Drip, obviously a much figure exit with Drip, obviously a much much larger exit than than that that you much larger exit than than that that you much larger exit than than that that you know that that we took part in. And you know that that we took part in. And you know that that we took part in. And you want to build a seven or eight figure want to build a seven or eight figure want to build a seven or eight figure business, a multi-million or decillion, business, a multi-million or decillion, business, a multi-million or decillion, you know, ARR business. And so I I do you know, ARR business. And so I I do you know, ARR business. And so I I do want I feel like people give advice of want I feel like people give advice of want I feel like people give advice of like you should always enter these like you should always enter these like you should always enter these massive competitive spaces. It's like no massive competitive spaces. It's like no massive competitive spaces. It's like no no no no no. Especially if you're early no no no no. Especially if you're early no no no no. Especially if you're early in your journey if I was an indie hacker in your journey if I was an indie hacker in your journey if I was an indie hacker launch my first product. I would either launch my first product. I would either launch my first product. I would either stair step it in and do little you know stair step it in and do little you know stair step it in and do little you know little products or I would find just a little products or I would find just a little products or I would find just a tiny tiny little SAS niche that I can tiny tiny little SAS niche that I can tiny tiny little SAS niche that I can build up to 5 or 10k a month. I mean build up to 5 or 10k a month. I mean build up to 5 or 10k a month. I mean that's what that's what I did you know that's what that's what I did you know that's what that's what I did you know and in in a in a sense you did that with and in in a in a sense you did that with and in in a in a sense you did that with code free as well right? It it was doing code free as well right? It it was doing code free as well right? It it was doing single-digit thousands a month and it single-digit thousands a month and it single-digit thousands a month and it was a great little add-on to um to was a great little add-on to um to was a great little add-on to um to GitHub you know to GitHub issues or to GitHub you know to GitHub issues or to GitHub you know to GitHub issues or to GitHub I guess. And GitHub I guess. And GitHub I guess. And That that's a that's a perfectly viable That that's a that's a perfectly viable That that's a that's a perfectly viable way especially if you're early at a way especially if you're early at a way especially if you're early at a different stage you know it becomes different stage you know it becomes different stage you know it becomes where you are ready to seven eight nine where you are ready to seven eight nine where you are ready to seven eight nine figure business well yeah are there any figure business well yeah are there any figure business well yeah are there any spaces today that that you can build a spaces today that that you can build a spaces today that that you can build a seven eight nine figure business that seven eight nine figure business that seven eight nine figure business that don't have competition in SAS I I don't don't have competition in SAS I I don't don't have competition in SAS I I don't believe there are there were in 2005 and believe there are there were in 2005 and believe there are there were in 2005 and there were some in 2010 and just each there were some in 2010 and just each there were some in 2010 and just each year I think those have been whittleled year I think those have been whittleled year I think those have been whittleled away you know so if you do want to build away you know so if you do want to build away you know so if you do want to build that large business it's something that large business it's something that large business it's something you're going to have to do I think you're going to have to do I think you're going to have to do I think yeah and especially Like I mean the a yeah and especially Like I mean the a yeah and especially Like I mean the a lot of people feel the temptation to lot of people feel the temptation to lot of people feel the temptation to like try to create their own category or like try to create their own category or like try to create their own category or something, you know, like like build something, you know, like like build something, you know, like like build something completely novel and and something completely novel and and something completely novel and and maybe, you know, if you were pitching to maybe, you know, if you were pitching to maybe, you know, if you were pitching to a venture capitalist who wanted to put a a venture capitalist who wanted to put a a venture capitalist who wanted to put a bunch of, you know, high-risisk capital bunch of, you know, high-risisk capital bunch of, you know, high-risisk capital after this idea that may completely after this idea that may completely after this idea that may completely flame out, you know, that's one route to

flame out, you know, that's one route to flame out, you know, that's one route to go, but it's not particularly feasible go, but it's not particularly feasible go, but it's not particularly feasible for for bootstrappers who are trying to for for bootstrappers who are trying to for for bootstrappers who are trying to get to default alive quickly and and get to default alive quickly and and get to default alive quickly and and build sustainable businesses, right? build sustainable businesses, right? build sustainable businesses, right? Yeah. And Yeah, that's right. And I I Yeah. And Yeah, that's right. And I I Yeah. And Yeah, that's right. And I I think there's there's kind of two ways think there's there's kind of two ways think there's there's kind of two ways to build a large let's say 7 8 9 figure to build a large let's say 7 8 9 figure to build a large let's say 7 8 9 figure SAS business today, right? You can go SAS business today, right? You can go SAS business today, right? You can go into a competitive space and you can into a competitive space and you can into a competitive space and you can just uh in out innovate them like drip just uh in out innovate them like drip just uh in out innovate them like drip did to infusionoft or you can niche down did to infusionoft or you can niche down did to infusionoft or you can niche down like you're doing which is like maybe like you're doing which is like maybe like you're doing which is like maybe maybe you out innovate calendarly but maybe you out innovate calendarly but maybe you out innovate calendarly but maybe you just build the best you know maybe you just build the best you know maybe you just build the best you know calendar app for executives or founders calendar app for executives or founders calendar app for executives or founders or sales people or you know some niche or sales people or you know some niche or sales people or you know some niche that's not currently being served really that's not currently being served really that's not currently being served really well. Um or I think you can catch a a well. Um or I think you can catch a a well. Um or I think you can catch a a new area like a new technology or a new new area like a new technology or a new new area like a new technology or a new you know I think of Josh with bare you know I think of Josh with bare you know I think of Josh with bare metrics right he was just early because metrics right he was just early because metrics right he was just early because the stripe ecosystem was early and he the stripe ecosystem was early and he the stripe ecosystem was early and he was the first analytics um piece was the first analytics um piece was the first analytics um piece and that actually leads us to uh let's and that actually leads us to uh let's and that actually leads us to uh let's see I had another question although you see I had another question although you see I had another question although you know there's so many questions coming in know there's so many questions coming in know there's so many questions coming in from listeners I think I'm going to bail from listeners I think I'm going to bail from listeners I think I'm going to bail on my next question and just ask this on my next question and just ask this on my next question and just ask this it's a little bit of a nonsequator but it's a little bit of a nonsequator but it's a little bit of a nonsequator but um it's from Josh Manders and he said um it's from Josh Manders and he said um it's from Josh Manders and he said Why did you switch from Mighty Cow to Why did you switch from Mighty Cow to Why did you switch from Mighty Cow to Savvy Cow? I really liked the name Savvy Cow? I really liked the name Savvy Cow? I really liked the name Mighty Cow.

Mighty Cow. Mighty Cow. Yeah, that was um that was a fun week Yeah, that was um that was a fun week Yeah, that was um that was a fun week dealing with that uh that issue. So, dealing with that uh that issue. So, dealing with that uh that issue. So, basically, basically, basically, you like the name Mighty Cal too? you like the name Mighty Cal too? you like the name Mighty Cal too? I did like the name Mighty Cal. um it I did like the name Mighty Cal. um it I did like the name Mighty Cal. um it was quite mighty. Um so ultimately it it was quite mighty. Um so ultimately it it was quite mighty. Um so ultimately it it bears bears bears somewhat uncomfortable similarity to somewhat uncomfortable similarity to somewhat uncomfortable similarity to another um SAS product. And so I kind of another um SAS product. And so I kind of another um SAS product. And so I kind of consulted with um an IP lawyer or a consulted with um an IP lawyer or a consulted with um an IP lawyer or a trademark lawyer um to see like to to trademark lawyer um to see like to to trademark lawyer um to see like to to sus out the risk of forging ahead with sus out the risk of forging ahead with sus out the risk of forging ahead with this name versus picking something this name versus picking something this name versus picking something that's a little bit cleaner in in that's a little bit cleaner in in that's a little bit cleaner in in respect to trademark. And ultimately he respect to trademark. And ultimately he respect to trademark. And ultimately he um spent a couple hundred dollars on um spent a couple hundred dollars on um spent a couple hundred dollars on that. He gave me kind of a a nice that. He gave me kind of a a nice that. He gave me kind of a a nice rundown of like eight different bullet rundown of like eight different bullet rundown of like eight different bullet points around, you know, defensibility points around, you know, defensibility points around, you know, defensibility of trademarks and basically said in my of trademarks and basically said in my of trademarks and basically said in my professional opinion, probably best to professional opinion, probably best to professional opinion, probably best to change it now. And if there's ever a change it now. And if there's ever a change it now. And if there's ever a good time to change it, it's now before good time to change it, it's now before good time to change it, it's now before you're launched. So thus new name. you're launched. So thus new name. you're launched. So thus new name. Such a bummer, man. Trademark law, that Such a bummer, man. Trademark law, that Such a bummer, man. Trademark law, that stuff. It's good. You did it early.

stuff. It's good. You did it early. stuff. It's good. You did it early. There is an interesting question from There is an interesting question from There is an interesting question from Cam Sloan that just came in that Cam Sloan that just came in that Cam Sloan that just came in that actually ties into what I was going to actually ties into what I was going to actually ties into what I was going to say right before Josh Manders which is I say right before Josh Manders which is I say right before Josh Manders which is I was talking about ways that you can was talking about ways that you can was talking about ways that you can build a large business right and you can build a large business right and you can build a large business right and you can go into an existing space and compete or go into an existing space and compete or go into an existing space and compete or you can try to catch a wave and be early you can try to catch a wave and be early you can try to catch a wave and be early to a space and that was something that to a space and that was something that to a space and that was something that you were that you tried with Static Kit you were that you tried with Static Kit you were that you tried with Static Kit which was the app prior to this and which was the app prior to this and which was the app prior to this and you're you're entering the static you're you're entering the static you're you're entering the static website um website um website um space in essence. and building a tool space in essence. and building a tool space in essence. and building a tool there. And so that is another way that there. And so that is another way that there. And so that is another way that you know people can keep in mind there's you know people can keep in mind there's you know people can keep in mind there's a lot of risk there that a the space a lot of risk there that a the space a lot of risk there that a the space never takes off or b your tool you know never takes off or b your tool you know never takes off or b your tool you know doesn't wind up being needed in the doesn't wind up being needed in the doesn't wind up being needed in the space. I mean there's all types of stuff space. I mean there's all types of stuff space. I mean there's all types of stuff there. But Cam's question is how would there. But Cam's question is how would there. But Cam's question is how would you distinguish between entering the you distinguish between entering the you distinguish between entering the forms market i.e. static kit and the forms market i.e. static kit and the forms market i.e. static kit and the calendar booking space? What drove you calendar booking space? What drove you calendar booking space? What drove you away from the former? away from the former? away from the former? Yeah. So the the form space um like my Yeah. So the the form space um like my Yeah. So the the form space um like my ambitions with static kit were always a ambitions with static kit were always a ambitions with static kit were always a little bit larger than just kind of form little bit larger than just kind of form little bit larger than just kind of form backend as a service. Um there's in that backend as a service. Um there's in that backend as a service. Um there's in that particular like very small um narrow particular like very small um narrow particular like very small um narrow range of functionality. There are a ton range of functionality. There are a ton range of functionality. There are a ton of different a ton of competitors too in of different a ton of competitors too in of different a ton of competitors too in that area. But the difference between that area. But the difference between that area. But the difference between kind of calendaring and forms is that um kind of calendaring and forms is that um kind of calendaring and forms is that um there it's sort of a race to the bottom there it's sort of a race to the bottom there it's sort of a race to the bottom with the with the forms piece. So, you with the with the forms piece. So, you with the with the forms piece. So, you know, um, so it was kind of hard to get know, um, so it was kind of hard to get know, um, so it was kind of hard to get the economics right on on pricing and the economics right on on pricing and the economics right on on pricing and and delivering sufficient value to kind and delivering sufficient value to kind and delivering sufficient value to kind of build a compelling business around

of build a compelling business around of build a compelling business around that. And so with Static Kit, my goal is that. And so with Static Kit, my goal is that. And so with Static Kit, my goal is always to to hopefully expand a little always to to hopefully expand a little always to to hopefully expand a little bit beyond just the forms vision and bit beyond just the forms vision and bit beyond just the forms vision and become more of like a a kind of backend become more of like a a kind of backend become more of like a a kind of backend as a service complement for um newer as a service complement for um newer as a service complement for um newer static site technologies kind of being static site technologies kind of being static site technologies kind of being um pushed ahead by Netlefi and Verscell um pushed ahead by Netlefi and Verscell um pushed ahead by Netlefi and Verscell and some of these really innovative and some of these really innovative and some of these really innovative hosting companies. And one of the big hosting companies. And one of the big hosting companies. And one of the big questions in my mind from the from the questions in my mind from the from the questions in my mind from the from the get-go was is this space mature enough? get-go was is this space mature enough? get-go was is this space mature enough? Is the Jamstack really mature enough Is the Jamstack really mature enough Is the Jamstack really mature enough where there's enough companies spending where there's enough companies spending where there's enough companies spending money on complimentary tooling for sites money on complimentary tooling for sites money on complimentary tooling for sites built in this space or is it still built in this space or is it still built in this space or is it still pretty nent a lot of like you know pretty nent a lot of like you know pretty nent a lot of like you know engineers kind of playing with this new engineers kind of playing with this new engineers kind of playing with this new technology and eventually you know technology and eventually you know technology and eventually you know gaining adoption in um in kind of gaining adoption in um in kind of gaining adoption in um in kind of commercial settings and so I think I commercial settings and so I think I commercial settings and so I think I found it is it is still decently young found it is it is still decently young found it is it is still decently young there's still a major gap between you there's still a major gap between you there's still a major gap between you know kind of the turnkey what you can know kind of the turnkey what you can know kind of the turnkey what you can what you can build with like an older what you can build with like an older what you can build with like an older style CMS BMS versus um kind of Jamstack style CMS BMS versus um kind of Jamstack style CMS BMS versus um kind of Jamstack approach. And so, you know, with this approach. And so, you know, with this approach. And so, you know, with this one, I kind of found it was just it was one, I kind of found it was just it was one, I kind of found it was just it was it was a bit early, I think, to try to it was a bit early, I think, to try to it was a bit early, I think, to try to build a Bootstrap business.

build a Bootstrap business. build a Bootstrap business. Yeah, that's a tough part, too, is if Yeah, that's a tough part, too, is if Yeah, that's a tough part, too, is if you're early to a space, are you too you're early to a space, are you too you're early to a space, are you too early? you know what if you what if early? you know what if you what if early? you know what if you what if you're two or three years early even if you're two or three years early even if you're two or three years early even if Jamstack or static sites takes off which Jamstack or static sites takes off which Jamstack or static sites takes off which it you know it seems to have traction it you know it seems to have traction it you know it seems to have traction what if it's WordPress in 2004 versus what if it's WordPress in 2004 versus what if it's WordPress in 2004 versus 2008 you know cuz there was an 2008 you know cuz there was an 2008 you know cuz there was an inflection point where it was like man inflection point where it was like man inflection point where it was like man if you were on the WordPress train like if you were on the WordPress train like if you were on the WordPress train like Woo themes hit it right at that right Woo themes hit it right at that right Woo themes hit it right at that right time but if they had built Woo themes in time but if they had built Woo themes in time but if they had built Woo themes in 2004 2005 it would have taken them six 2004 2005 it would have taken them six 2004 2005 it would have taken them six seven years to hit that traction and you seven years to hit that traction and you seven years to hit that traction and you were I mean you and I had a lot of were I mean you and I had a lot of were I mean you and I had a lot of conversations about this we live in the conversations about this we live in the conversations about this we live in the same town and obviously you know chat same town and obviously you know chat same town and obviously you know chat about stuff and you were like I just I about stuff and you were like I just I about stuff and you were like I just I don't want to be doing you know I don't don't want to be doing you know I don't don't want to be doing you know I don't want to be still at 10K MR five or six want to be still at 10K MR five or six want to be still at 10K MR five or six years like that does not sound years like that does not sound years like that does not sound interesting, you know. interesting, you know. interesting, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, let me So, let me So, let me you have anything to add? you have anything to add? you have anything to add? Oh, and I was just gonna say like yeah Oh, and I was just gonna say like yeah Oh, and I was just gonna say like yeah in addition to that like um you know one in addition to that like um you know one in addition to that like um you know one of the things we talk about is like why of the things we talk about is like why of the things we talk about is like why you know why not just try to be early you know why not just try to be early you know why not just try to be early and it's like if you think about kind of and it's like if you think about kind of and it's like if you think about kind of market opportunity plotted on a timeline market opportunity plotted on a timeline market opportunity plotted on a timeline like there exists a very narrow band of like there exists a very narrow band of like there exists a very narrow band of time where you can actually be early and time where you can actually be early and time where you can actually be early and and catch that proverbial wave, right?

and catch that proverbial wave, right? and catch that proverbial wave, right? and be kind of the one to swoop in and and be kind of the one to swoop in and and be kind of the one to swoop in and and gain dominance in the market. And and gain dominance in the market. And and gain dominance in the market. And then there's the rest of the timeline then there's the rest of the timeline then there's the rest of the timeline that's like either the time before the that's like either the time before the that's like either the time before the market demand is high enough to build a market demand is high enough to build a market demand is high enough to build a business on and then the time where business on and then the time where business on and then the time where other competitors are already there, other competitors are already there, other competitors are already there, right? I mean, especially in a healthy right? I mean, especially in a healthy right? I mean, especially in a healthy economy where where businesses naturally economy where where businesses naturally economy where where businesses naturally emerge to meet demand, you know, it's emerge to meet demand, you know, it's emerge to meet demand, you know, it's like it's just finding that time is like it's just finding that time is like it's just finding that time is almost like saying I'm going to go to almost like saying I'm going to go to almost like saying I'm going to go to I'm going to go to Hollywood and first I'm going to go to Hollywood and first I'm going to go to Hollywood and first become famous and then I will succeed. become famous and then I will succeed. become famous and then I will succeed. You know, it's like You know, it's like You know, it's like it's a rare there's little little too it's a rare there's little little too it's a rare there's little little too much luck in the be early for my taste much luck in the be early for my taste much luck in the be early for my taste personally. I mean, obviously people do personally. I mean, obviously people do personally. I mean, obviously people do it. You know, again, I bring up Josh it. You know, again, I bring up Josh it. You know, again, I bring up Josh from Bare Metrics 80 with Woo Themes. He from Bare Metrics 80 with Woo Themes. He from Bare Metrics 80 with Woo Themes. He was early to the paid, you know, um paid was early to the paid, you know, um paid was early to the paid, you know, um paid themes and I had a bunch of examples in themes and I had a bunch of examples in themes and I had a bunch of examples in a talk I gave once. I can't remember the a talk I gave once. I can't remember the a talk I gave once. I can't remember the others, but there were people who others, but there were people who others, but there were people who I mean I even think of like Optin I mean I even think of like Optin I mean I even think of like Optin Monster and Sumo, you know, the Sumo Monster and Sumo, you know, the Sumo Monster and Sumo, you know, the Sumo Sumo Me I guess it was called at the Sumo Me I guess it was called at the Sumo Me I guess it was called at the time and and Drip, right? we were early time and and Drip, right? we were early time and and Drip, right? we were early to that space and got some traction. Um, to that space and got some traction. Um, to that space and got some traction. Um, and yeah, there's a little it's not as and yeah, there's a little it's not as and yeah, there's a little it's not as repeatable as I I like to make these repeatable as I I like to make these repeatable as I I like to make these things, things, things, right?

right? right? Another question came in from Pablo is Another question came in from Pablo is Another question came in from Pablo is an interesting one. What products did an interesting one. What products did an interesting one. What products did you think of and abandon in your process you think of and abandon in your process you think of and abandon in your process of trying Levelville, Static Kit, and of trying Levelville, Static Kit, and of trying Levelville, Static Kit, and Savvy? And for folks who don't know, Savvy? And for folks who don't know, Savvy? And for folks who don't know, Levelvel was, you were working on it a Levelvel was, you were working on it a Levelvel was, you were working on it a couple years ago, and it was essentially couple years ago, and it was essentially couple years ago, and it was essentially a Slack competitor, a less interruptive a Slack competitor, a less interruptive a Slack competitor, a less interruptive Slack competitor. static kit we've Slack competitor. static kit we've Slack competitor. static kit we've covered and of course savvy which you're covered and of course savvy which you're covered and of course savvy which you're working on now. But what products did working on now. But what products did working on now. But what products did you think of abandon? you think of abandon? you think of abandon? Well, that's a that's kind of a tough Well, that's a that's kind of a tough Well, that's a that's kind of a tough one to answer because I have I like you one to answer because I have I like you one to answer because I have I like you Rob, I have an idea notebook that is has Rob, I have an idea notebook that is has Rob, I have an idea notebook that is has just pages upon pages of, you know, lots just pages upon pages of, you know, lots just pages upon pages of, you know, lots of random ideas from over the years and of random ideas from over the years and of random ideas from over the years and um most of them probably not very good, um most of them probably not very good, um most of them probably not very good, right? So, I didn't really make a a right? So, I didn't really make a a right? So, I didn't really make a a deliberate run at too many other ideas deliberate run at too many other ideas deliberate run at too many other ideas aside from these. I would say one of the aside from these. I would say one of the aside from these. I would say one of the things I was vetting I think I think it things I was vetting I think I think it things I was vetting I think I think it was maybe a little bit before level and was maybe a little bit before level and was maybe a little bit before level and then after level I kind of returned back then after level I kind of returned back then after level I kind of returned back to it was some like tooling for um indie to it was some like tooling for um indie to it was some like tooling for um indie hackers or people in kind of the the hackers or people in kind of the the hackers or people in kind of the the earlier side of the microcom space like earlier side of the microcom space like earlier side of the microcom space like what could could there exist a suite of what could could there exist a suite of what could could there exist a suite of tools that you know helps people get tools that you know helps people get tools that you know helps people get their business off the ground quicker their business off the ground quicker their business off the ground quicker with like basic email marketing, basic with like basic email marketing, basic with like basic email marketing, basic uh landing pages and that kind of stuff.

uh landing pages and that kind of stuff. uh landing pages and that kind of stuff. And um that was one I remember thinking And um that was one I remember thinking And um that was one I remember thinking about and ultimately didn't didn't move about and ultimately didn't didn't move about and ultimately didn't didn't move forward with. forward with. forward with. And and I think you were there was at And and I think you were there was at And and I think you were there was at one point you were going to do something one point you were going to do something one point you were going to do something integrating with Stripe because you integrating with Stripe because you integrating with Stripe because you wanted to be where the money was, right? wanted to be where the money was, right? wanted to be where the money was, right? And I don't remember specific about it, And I don't remember specific about it, And I don't remember specific about it, but we definitely but we definitely but we definitely Yeah, it was actually it was going to be Yeah, it was actually it was going to be Yeah, it was actually it was going to be something something around um something something around um something something around um you kind of like what the Stripe you kind of like what the Stripe you kind of like what the Stripe customer portal serves now, like kind of customer portal serves now, like kind of customer portal serves now, like kind of a a a the ability to send send someone over to the ability to send send someone over to the ability to send send someone over to a page where they can update their a page where they can update their a page where they can update their credit card, change their plan, have credit card, change their plan, have credit card, change their plan, have like a an automatically like optimized like a an automatically like optimized like a an automatically like optimized for you checkout flow for signing up for for you checkout flow for signing up for for you checkout flow for signing up for a SAS app and all that kind of stuff. a SAS app and all that kind of stuff. a SAS app and all that kind of stuff. And um you know, thankfully didn't enter And um you know, thankfully didn't enter And um you know, thankfully didn't enter that space because Stripe appears to be that space because Stripe appears to be that space because Stripe appears to be making some moves in that direction. making some moves in that direction. making some moves in that direction. That was one of the big reasons we That was one of the big reasons we That was one of the big reasons we talked about that. We're like, man, this talked about that. We're like, man, this talked about that. We're like, man, this is a great idea, man. You're going to is a great idea, man. You're going to is a great idea, man. You're going to get trucked by the platform risk on this get trucked by the platform risk on this get trucked by the platform risk on this one. Strike is going to move fast and one. Strike is going to move fast and one. Strike is going to move fast and they're going to build a good product they're going to build a good product they're going to build a good product and they're probably going to, you know, and they're probably going to, you know, and they're probably going to, you know, unfor accidentally crush you there. unfor accidentally crush you there. unfor accidentally crush you there. Yep. Yep. Yep. So, I I have a question now about Level So, I I have a question now about Level So, I I have a question now about Level and compared to Savvy like Level was and compared to Savvy like Level was and compared to Savvy like Level was also in a competitive space. You know, also in a competitive space. You know, also in a competitive space. You know, you were entering a place where Slack you were entering a place where Slack you were entering a place where Slack owns it and then there are these Slack owns it and then there are these Slack owns it and then there are these Slack competitors already and you were competitors already and you were competitors already and you were entering it with and kind of trying to entering it with and kind of trying to entering it with and kind of trying to niche down almost or take a different niche down almost or take a different niche down almost or take a different angle and saying look angle and saying look angle and saying look we are going to provide the value of we are going to provide the value of we are going to provide the value of Slack but less interruptive for for Slack but less interruptive for for Slack but less interruptive for for makers and people who want to do deep makers and people who want to do deep makers and people who want to do deep work but you worked on it for a year work but you worked on it for a year work but you worked on it for a year year and a half and and didn't get year and a half and and didn't get year and a half and and didn't get traction and shut it down. So what's the traction and shut it down. So what's the traction and shut it down. So what's the difference there between you know level difference there between you know level difference there between you know level and and savvy I guess?

and and savvy I guess? and and savvy I guess? Yeah. So, I kind of made a small Yeah. So, I kind of made a small Yeah. So, I kind of made a small bulleted list of this and I have like a bulleted list of this and I have like a bulleted list of this and I have like a deep dive blog post on derek rammer.com deep dive blog post on derek rammer.com deep dive blog post on derek rammer.com too if people want to check that out. too if people want to check that out. too if people want to check that out. Um, but kind of the the big the big Um, but kind of the the big the big Um, but kind of the the big the big points are like one very extremely high points are like one very extremely high points are like one very extremely high switching costs which is something that switching costs which is something that switching costs which is something that I just sort of underestimated um how I just sort of underestimated um how I just sort of underestimated um how deeply ingrained Slack was to people's deeply ingrained Slack was to people's deeply ingrained Slack was to people's workflows ranging from small companies workflows ranging from small companies workflows ranging from small companies all the way up to of course the larger all the way up to of course the larger all the way up to of course the larger you are the more the more kind of it has you are the more the more kind of it has you are the more the more kind of it has its tentacles into your processes. um its tentacles into your processes. um its tentacles into your processes. um and and with that requiring universal and and with that requiring universal and and with that requiring universal buyin from companies. So, you know, buyin from companies. So, you know, buyin from companies. So, you know, there were usually in all the the kind there were usually in all the the kind there were usually in all the the kind of early customers that I spoke to, of early customers that I spoke to, of early customers that I spoke to, there were always a couple champions there were always a couple champions there were always a couple champions obviously who who believed that the obviously who who believed that the obviously who who believed that the Slack model for communication was not Slack model for communication was not Slack model for communication was not healthy. But there also usually existed healthy. But there also usually existed healthy. But there also usually existed a handful of people in the org who saw a handful of people in the org who saw a handful of people in the org who saw no no issue with it and were kind of a a no no issue with it and were kind of a a no no issue with it and were kind of a a blocker to to changing up the the stack. blocker to to changing up the the stack. blocker to to changing up the the stack. And so, um, you know, that's that's And so, um, you know, that's that's And so, um, you know, that's that's another frustrating piece that I ran another frustrating piece that I ran another frustrating piece that I ran into. Um, into. Um, into. Um, I think it's it's difficult to pilot I think it's it's difficult to pilot I think it's it's difficult to pilot because it kind of requires required you because it kind of requires required you because it kind of requires required you to make a wholesale switch over, you to make a wholesale switch over, you to make a wholesale switch over, you know, splitting communication between to know, splitting communication between to know, splitting communication between to tools was kind of a nightmare and a lot tools was kind of a nightmare and a lot tools was kind of a nightmare and a lot of people were really resistant to doing of people were really resistant to doing of people were really resistant to doing that. And um another thing I heard was that. And um another thing I heard was that. And um another thing I heard was just like a lot of people wanted to just like a lot of people wanted to just like a lot of people wanted to continue using Slack if for no other continue using Slack if for no other continue using Slack if for no other reason than it's already installed on my reason than it's already installed on my reason than it's already installed on my computer and I'm in a bunch of Slack computer and I'm in a bunch of Slack computer and I'm in a bunch of Slack workspaces already. So they kind of had workspaces already. So they kind of had workspaces already. So they kind of had this weird network effect um thing that this weird network effect um thing that this weird network effect um thing that that gave inertia to switching to that gave inertia to switching to that gave inertia to switching to something else. And so you know all

something else. And so you know all something else. And so you know all those things combined made it an those things combined made it an those things combined made it an extremely difficult uphill battle. In extremely difficult uphill battle. In extremely difficult uphill battle. In contrast, you know, Savvy Calal, you can contrast, you know, Savvy Calal, you can contrast, you know, Savvy Calal, you can you can use it effectively in single you can use it effectively in single you can use it effectively in single player mode, you know, or you can use it player mode, you know, or you can use it player mode, you know, or you can use it as a team if you're like a customer as a team if you're like a customer as a team if you're like a customer success team or something or sales team success team or something or sales team success team or something or sales team that needs to to do group scheduling. that needs to to do group scheduling. that needs to to do group scheduling. Um, switching costs are decently low Um, switching costs are decently low Um, switching costs are decently low even if you have, you know, 10 even if you have, you know, 10 even if you have, you know, 10 scheduling links. Um, it's not that scheduling links. Um, it's not that scheduling links. Um, it's not that difficult to switch over and that's difficult to switch over and that's difficult to switch over and that's that's also on the flip side a a risk that's also on the flip side a a risk that's also on the flip side a a risk like if if it's easy to switch to Savvy, like if if it's easy to switch to Savvy, like if if it's easy to switch to Savvy, then potentially it's easy to switch then potentially it's easy to switch then potentially it's easy to switch away from it. So, that'll be something away from it. So, that'll be something away from it. So, that'll be something that I'm going to be paying attention to that I'm going to be paying attention to that I'm going to be paying attention to is like how can I make my product is like how can I make my product is like how can I make my product stickier than the products that people stickier than the products that people stickier than the products that people were leaving to come over to mine. Um, were leaving to come over to mine. Um, were leaving to come over to mine. Um, and then it also has kind of this this and then it also has kind of this this and then it also has kind of this this nice little baked in virality piece too. nice little baked in virality piece too. nice little baked in virality piece too. Every time someone shares a Savvy Cow Every time someone shares a Savvy Cow Every time someone shares a Savvy Cow link, you know, more people are becoming link, you know, more people are becoming link, you know, more people are becoming aware of the product. So, so different aware of the product. So, so different aware of the product. So, so different in many in many different aspects. in many in many different aspects. in many in many different aspects. Yeah, for sure. There is a question Yeah, for sure. There is a question Yeah, for sure. There is a question about growth channels. Have you found a about growth channels. Have you found a about growth channels. Have you found a growth channel that's working? Can you growth channel that's working? Can you growth channel that's working? Can you share what you did to find it?

share what you did to find it? share what you did to find it? And I mean I think you know it's And I mean I think you know it's And I mean I think you know it's something we should have done at the top something we should have done at the top something we should have done at the top is have you tell people what what stage is have you tell people what what stage is have you tell people what what stage are you at? Like can you tell us how are you at? Like can you tell us how are you at? Like can you tell us how many customers you have or just many customers you have or just many customers you have or just something so they so they do know at something so they so they do know at something so they so they do know at what phase you know seeking product what phase you know seeking product what phase you know seeking product market fit with ex customers is probably market fit with ex customers is probably market fit with ex customers is probably a good way to put it I think. a good way to put it I think. a good way to put it I think. Yeah. Yeah. So it's still pretty pretty Yeah. Yeah. So it's still pretty pretty Yeah. Yeah. So it's still pretty pretty early days. I just actually launched early days. I just actually launched early days. I just actually launched officially um officially um officially um y last week. Yahoo. So, I have kind of y last week. Yahoo. So, I have kind of y last week. Yahoo. So, I have kind of I'm still sharing numbers at this point. I'm still sharing numbers at this point. I'm still sharing numbers at this point. At some point, I'll probably dial that At some point, I'll probably dial that At some point, I'll probably dial that back, but I have about 35 customers back, but I have about 35 customers back, but I have about 35 customers right now and around $450 MR. So, it's I right now and around $450 MR. So, it's I right now and around $450 MR. So, it's I feel good about where it's at. feel good about where it's at. feel good about where it's at. Obviously, it's it's, you know, Obviously, it's it's, you know, Obviously, it's it's, you know, have lots lots of progress to make um have lots lots of progress to make um have lots lots of progress to make um off of that. But, off of that. But, off of that. But, but it's early days and I still see this but it's early days and I still see this but it's early days and I still see this as, you know, kind of in the in like the as, you know, kind of in the in like the as, you know, kind of in the in like the lean startup sense. It's like still my lean startup sense. It's like still my lean startup sense. It's like still my my learning machine. it's the it's my my learning machine. it's the it's my my learning machine. it's the it's my proving ground for figuring out what are proving ground for figuring out what are proving ground for figuring out what are those channels going to be and um you those channels going to be and um you those channels going to be and um you know I felt like launching was was a a know I felt like launching was was a a know I felt like launching was was a a big step towards towards accelerating big step towards towards accelerating big step towards towards accelerating learning. Um right learning. Um right learning. Um right and so I will be you know I I'm a big and so I will be you know I I'm a big and so I will be you know I I'm a big fan of the traction book from Gabriel fan of the traction book from Gabriel fan of the traction book from Gabriel Weinberg and Justin Maris and the Weinberg and Justin Maris and the Weinberg and Justin Maris and the bullseye framework in there. So you know bullseye framework in there. So you know bullseye framework in there. So you know that's kind of my go-to for for sussing that's kind of my go-to for for sussing that's kind of my go-to for for sussing out what my traction channels are going out what my traction channels are going out what my traction channels are going to look like and what kind of to look like and what kind of to look like and what kind of experiments I'm going to run to figure experiments I'm going to run to figure experiments I'm going to run to figure that out. Um, so not quite don't quite that out. Um, so not quite don't quite that out. Um, so not quite don't quite have all that figured out just yet for have all that figured out just yet for have all that figured out just yet for Savvy Cal, but that's probably where Savvy Cal, but that's probably where Savvy Cal, but that's probably where I'll I'll I'll Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, no growth channels yet, but you're no growth channels yet, but you're no growth channels yet, but you're basically in the process of, you know, basically in the process of, you know, basically in the process of, you know, finding market finding product market finding market finding product market finding market finding product market fit. I think finding a

fit. I think finding a fit. I think finding a you already have users who are going to you already have users who are going to you already have users who are going to use it and you know like the tiny seed use it and you know like the tiny seed use it and you know like the tiny seed team switched over and it's like yeah team switched over and it's like yeah team switched over and it's like yeah this does everything we need that this does everything we need that this does everything we need that calendarly did and there's no reason why calendarly did and there's no reason why calendarly did and there's no reason why we would switch you know so I'm guessing we would switch you know so I'm guessing we would switch you know so I'm guessing that you're going to have you know a that you're going to have you know a that you're going to have you know a decent amount of people sticking around decent amount of people sticking around decent amount of people sticking around but you're trying to get to that point but you're trying to get to that point but you're trying to get to that point where it's not oh I am I'm on par or I where it's not oh I am I'm on par or I where it's not oh I am I'm on par or I have feature parity with Calendarly you have feature parity with Calendarly you have feature parity with Calendarly you know you want to get to that point where know you want to get to that point where know you want to get to that point where it's like oh I need like if you are this it's like oh I need like if you are this it's like oh I need like if you are this type of user you need type of user you need type of user you need to get on savvy cal right you need to be to get on savvy cal right you need to be to get on savvy cal right you need to be on superhuman and not using the Gmail on superhuman and not using the Gmail on superhuman and not using the Gmail web interface, right? And you need to be web interface, right? And you need to be web interface, right? And you need to be using, you know, whatever email service using, you know, whatever email service using, you know, whatever email service provider, you know, if you really are in provider, you know, if you really are in provider, you know, if you really are in that space. So, you're not I get the that space. So, you're not I get the that space. So, you're not I get the feeling you're not there yet, but do you feeling you're not there yet, but do you feeling you're not there yet, but do you have a process or is there something have a process or is there something have a process or is there something that you're doing specifically that that that you're doing specifically that that that you're doing specifically that that might be helpful to those who are also might be helpful to those who are also might be helpful to those who are also trying to trying to get there? trying to trying to get there? trying to trying to get there? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, something I did Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, something I did Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, something I did um early on that gave me my first nice um early on that gave me my first nice um early on that gave me my first nice bump of information was um when I put up bump of information was um when I put up bump of information was um when I put up my landing page and I was collecting, my landing page and I was collecting, my landing page and I was collecting, you know, email addresses for people you know, email addresses for people you know, email addresses for people interested in the product. Um I did a an interested in the product. Um I did a an interested in the product. Um I did a an autoresponder email right after they autoresponder email right after they autoresponder email right after they signed up that basically said, "Hey, if signed up that basically said, "Hey, if signed up that basically said, "Hey, if you're interested in being kind of an you're interested in being kind of an you're interested in being kind of an early adopter of this tool, um fill out early adopter of this tool, um fill out early adopter of this tool, um fill out this brief survey." And in it, I kind of this brief survey." And in it, I kind of this brief survey." And in it, I kind of asked, you know, what are you using asked, you know, what are you using asked, you know, what are you using today? wanted to get an idea of like at today? wanted to get an idea of like at today? wanted to get an idea of like at what point would it make sense to what point would it make sense to what point would it make sense to onboard these or invite these people to onboard these or invite these people to onboard these or invite these people to come onto the product um based on how come onto the product um based on how come onto the product um based on how far I my progress um and then also kind far I my progress um and then also kind far I my progress um and then also kind of figured out like are you in the of figured out like are you in the of figured out like are you in the market for a tool and and a chunk of market for a tool and and a chunk of market for a tool and and a chunk of people said like nope just curious which people said like nope just curious which people said like nope just curious which is super helpful and then the people who is super helpful and then the people who is super helpful and then the people who said yes they usually then wrote a

said yes they usually then wrote a said yes they usually then wrote a paragraph or two about what they're paragraph or two about what they're paragraph or two about what they're looking for and and why the tools in the looking for and and why the tools in the looking for and and why the tools in the market today are not are not satisfying market today are not are not satisfying market today are not are not satisfying their needs and some of it aligned with their needs and some of it aligned with their needs and some of it aligned with with hypotheses I had come up with and with hypotheses I had come up with and with hypotheses I had come up with and other things I had not I not heard of other things I had not I not heard of other things I had not I not heard of before. So that was a that was a really before. So that was a that was a really before. So that was a that was a really helpful like early indicator of like helpful like early indicator of like helpful like early indicator of like these people, you know, went through a these people, you know, went through a these people, you know, went through a couple layers of friction filling out a couple layers of friction filling out a couple layers of friction filling out a survey and to to express to me um you survey and to to express to me um you survey and to to express to me um you know, the problems they had and and I know, the problems they had and and I know, the problems they had and and I think it was somewhere close to half of think it was somewhere close to half of think it was somewhere close to half of the people who joined the list um went the people who joined the list um went the people who joined the list um went through that that phase of filling out through that that phase of filling out through that that phase of filling out the survey as well. So that was a that the survey as well. So that was a that the survey as well. So that was a that was a pretty good indicator to me that was a pretty good indicator to me that was a pretty good indicator to me that there's there's something here and there's there's something here and there's there's something here and people are are particularly motivated people are are particularly motivated people are are particularly motivated not just to see kind of a new product not just to see kind of a new product not just to see kind of a new product but have like share their thoughts on but have like share their thoughts on but have like share their thoughts on what they'd like to see um in a new in a what they'd like to see um in a new in a what they'd like to see um in a new in a new tool. new tool. new tool. Yep. Yeah. And that actually ties into Yep. Yeah. And that actually ties into Yep. Yeah. And that actually ties into the the next question. It's from Jeremy the the next question. It's from Jeremy the the next question. It's from Jeremy Chase. He says, "When entering a crowded Chase. He says, "When entering a crowded Chase. He says, "When entering a crowded market, how do you look for a niche that market, how do you look for a niche that market, how do you look for a niche that has opportunity?" And I think one way has opportunity?" And I think one way has opportunity?" And I think one way I'll throw out while you're while you're I'll throw out while you're while you're I'll throw out while you're while you're thinking is, you know, with with if I thinking is, you know, with with if I thinking is, you know, with with if I were going to go into competitive space, were going to go into competitive space, were going to go into competitive space, I would look for a competitive space I would look for a competitive space I would look for a competitive space with a hated market leader. So if with a hated market leader. So if with a hated market leader. So if everyone about Salesforce, I everyone about Salesforce, I everyone about Salesforce, I would ask myself, can I build either a would ask myself, can I build either a would ask myself, can I build either a niche? And this isn't even a niche. This niche? And this isn't even a niche. This niche? And this isn't even a niche. This is just a way to attack it. The niche is is just a way to attack it. The niche is is just a way to attack it. The niche is I'm not them. You know, when we I'm not them. You know, when we I'm not them. You know, when we infusionoft, people just did not like infusionoft, people just did not like infusionoft, people just did not like them. They were so overpriced and the them. They were so overpriced and the them. They were so overpriced and the software was And so we built a software was And so we built a software was And so we built a easier to use, less expensive version of easier to use, less expensive version of easier to use, less expensive version of that. Um, but that's not the only way to

that. Um, but that's not the only way to that. Um, but that's not the only way to do it. It's just an easy, you know, it's do it. It's just an easy, you know, it's do it. It's just an easy, you know, it's easy to get refugees at that point. easy to get refugees at that point. easy to get refugees at that point. You're I don't I don't feel like you're You're I don't I don't feel like you're You're I don't I don't feel like you're entering that space. I don't hear people entering that space. I don't hear people entering that space. I don't hear people saying, "I hate Calendarly." It's not saying, "I hate Calendarly." It's not saying, "I hate Calendarly." It's not widely despised the way maybe QuickBooks widely despised the way maybe QuickBooks widely despised the way maybe QuickBooks is or was, you know, and and I think is or was, you know, and and I think is or was, you know, and and I think PayPal at one point was, you know, there PayPal at one point was, you know, there PayPal at one point was, you know, there are certain companies that are kind of are certain companies that are kind of are certain companies that are kind of easy pickings. Um, but you're not in easy pickings. Um, but you're not in easy pickings. Um, but you're not in that space, but you're looking at it that space, but you're looking at it that space, but you're looking at it from from a different angle. So, yeah. from from a different angle. So, yeah. from from a different angle. So, yeah. You want to give your take on this? You want to give your take on this? You want to give your take on this? Yeah, I think I mean there Yeah, I think I mean there Yeah, I think I mean there a lot of tools and cowly being kind of a lot of tools and cowly being kind of a lot of tools and cowly being kind of the the the dominant player I think um the the the dominant player I think um the the the dominant player I think um you know is it's a simple tool. It does you know is it's a simple tool. It does you know is it's a simple tool. It does it does its job decently well but um and it does its job decently well but um and it does its job decently well but um and it's I will say it's not hated. It's it's I will say it's not hated. It's it's I will say it's not hated. It's pretty it's a pretty well-liked tool, pretty it's a pretty well-liked tool, pretty it's a pretty well-liked tool, but when you start digging a couple but when you start digging a couple but when you start digging a couple layers deeper, um you know, you start layers deeper, um you know, you start layers deeper, um you know, you start scouring through forums, you start scouring through forums, you start scouring through forums, you start initiating conversations, um you know, initiating conversations, um you know, initiating conversations, um you know, on on Twitter and such, and you start to on on Twitter and such, and you start to on on Twitter and such, and you start to unearth some like unearth some like unearth some like feature requests people have been asking feature requests people have been asking feature requests people have been asking for that have kind of fallen on deaf for that have kind of fallen on deaf for that have kind of fallen on deaf ears. Um, and I think that's just, you ears. Um, and I think that's just, you ears. Um, and I think that's just, you know, they, for better or worse, they know, they, for better or worse, they know, they, for better or worse, they have a pretty, um, tight reign on scope have a pretty, um, tight reign on scope have a pretty, um, tight reign on scope of their product. And so I think, you of their product. And so I think, you of their product. And so I think, you know, it's it's like if you start know, it's it's like if you start know, it's it's like if you start listening to some of the more power user listening to some of the more power user listening to some of the more power user use cases, um, you will start to find use cases, um, you will start to find use cases, um, you will start to find find some some areas to explore. And now find some some areas to explore. And now find some some areas to explore. And now granted, you have to be careful that you granted, you have to be careful that you granted, you have to be careful that you don't go, you know, um, too far. I mean don't go, you know, um, too far. I mean don't go, you know, um, too far. I mean this was something we had to resist with this was something we had to resist with this was something we had to resist with drip early on. you know, we had we had drip early on. you know, we had we had drip early on. you know, we had we had power user like Brennan Dunn and

power user like Brennan Dunn and power user like Brennan Dunn and probably a lot of people know Brennan probably a lot of people know Brennan probably a lot of people know Brennan Dunn and you know, Brennan's ideal tool Dunn and you know, Brennan's ideal tool Dunn and you know, Brennan's ideal tool probably is, you know, would only be probably is, you know, would only be probably is, you know, would only be usable by Brendan because it'd be too usable by Brendan because it'd be too usable by Brendan because it'd be too complicated. But, um, complicated. But, um, complicated. But, um, right. right. right. So, you have to be careful with that. So, you have to be careful with that. So, you have to be careful with that. But I think that's what I'm starting to But I think that's what I'm starting to But I think that's what I'm starting to see is just like um kind of a a a list see is just like um kind of a a a list see is just like um kind of a a a list of wants and needs from people who want of wants and needs from people who want of wants and needs from people who want to take the tool a little bit further um to take the tool a little bit further um to take the tool a little bit further um uh beyond kind of the simple the simple uh beyond kind of the simple the simple uh beyond kind of the simple the simple dominant player. dominant player. dominant player. That's what I was going to say. this That's what I was going to say. this That's what I was going to say. this third kind of framework that I think third kind of framework that I think third kind of framework that I think about because I give one, you give one. about because I give one, you give one. about because I give one, you give one. The the way I think about it is if I'm The the way I think about it is if I'm The the way I think about it is if I'm going to enter any space, a competitive going to enter any space, a competitive going to enter any space, a competitive space or otherwise, I'm going to say and space or otherwise, I'm going to say and space or otherwise, I'm going to say and I want to niche down. I'm going to look I want to niche down. I'm going to look I want to niche down. I'm going to look at industries or roles within a company. at industries or roles within a company. at industries or roles within a company. So industries are things like, well, I'm So industries are things like, well, I'm So industries are things like, well, I'm going to build accounting software that going to build accounting software that going to build accounting software that caters to hairstyle or salons, you know, caters to hairstyle or salons, you know, caters to hairstyle or salons, you know, I'm not saying do that, but that that's I'm not saying do that, but that that's I'm not saying do that, but that that's one example. Or accounting software for one example. Or accounting software for one example. Or accounting software for um you know, people that have very um you know, people that have very um you know, people that have very unique accounting needs. Maybe it's for unique accounting needs. Maybe it's for unique accounting needs. Maybe it's for SAS companies because they maybe they SAS companies because they maybe they SAS companies because they maybe they defer revenue and have annual this and defer revenue and have annual this and defer revenue and have annual this and that and it's more complicated than just that and it's more complicated than just that and it's more complicated than just using zero. So you can go industry using zero. So you can go industry using zero. So you can go industry verticals or you can go roles at a verticals or you can go roles at a verticals or you can go roles at a company because you'll often hear well company because you'll often hear well company because you'll often hear well calendarly works for me but I'm like a calendarly works for me but I'm like a calendarly works for me but I'm like a saleserson and I would could really use saleserson and I would could really use saleserson and I would could really use these five things to make sales better these five things to make sales better these five things to make sales better or Calendarly works but I'm I'm head of or Calendarly works but I'm I'm head of or Calendarly works but I'm I'm head of HR and I need this to be confidential HR and I need this to be confidential HR and I need this to be confidential and and once they submit this I need it and and once they submit this I need it and and once they submit this I need it to go and like trigger this PDF to get to go and like trigger this PDF to get to go and like trigger this PDF to get sent and this workflow or whatever you sent and this workflow or whatever you sent and this workflow or whatever you know I mean you can imagine a role at know I mean you can imagine a role at know I mean you can imagine a role at any company across industry verticals any company across industry verticals any company across industry verticals because an HR manager at Target, Best because an HR manager at Target, Best because an HR manager at Target, Best Buy and General Mills probably has Buy and General Mills probably has Buy and General Mills probably has similar needs even though they're in

similar needs even though they're in similar needs even though they're in different industries. So that's just a different industries. So that's just a different industries. So that's just a third kind of way to to think about it. third kind of way to to think about it. third kind of way to to think about it. And from there, I would, you know, use And from there, I would, you know, use And from there, I would, you know, use your approach, which is a lot of your approach, which is a lot of your approach, which is a lot of conversations. I'd probably be hitting conversations. I'd probably be hitting conversations. I'd probably be hitting people up on LinkedIn. I'd probably be people up on LinkedIn. I'd probably be people up on LinkedIn. I'd probably be on forums. I'd be watching Twitter, you on forums. I'd be watching Twitter, you on forums. I'd be watching Twitter, you know, I'd have I'd have Google alerts. know, I'd have I'd have Google alerts. know, I'd have I'd have Google alerts. I'd be in the Facebook groups for the I'd be in the Facebook groups for the I'd be in the Facebook groups for the the tool or tools that I'm thinking the tool or tools that I'm thinking the tool or tools that I'm thinking about competing against. And I'd be about competing against. And I'd be about competing against. And I'd be looking at looking at looking at what are they not building, what are what are they not building, what are what are they not building, what are people complaining about, you know, any people complaining about, you know, any people complaining about, you know, any type of info and what are the type of info and what are the type of info and what are the commonalities and is it a role or is it, commonalities and is it a role or is it, commonalities and is it a role or is it, you know, an industry vertical. you know, an industry vertical. you know, an industry vertical. So, yep. So, yep. So, yep. Cool. That's where we are. Well, sir, we Cool. That's where we are. Well, sir, we Cool. That's where we are. Well, sir, we are at time. It's been a great are at time. It's been a great are at time. It's been a great conversation. Um, thanks for It's been conversation. Um, thanks for It's been conversation. Um, thanks for It's been fun. fun. fun. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show. Your first time on MicroConf on Air. Your first time on MicroConf on Air. Your first time on MicroConf on Air. Yeah, good to be here. Yeah, good to be here. Yeah, good to be here. Folks want to keep up with you. You are Folks want to keep up with you. You are Folks want to keep up with you. You are at Derek Rhyrimer on Twitter and Derek at Derek Rhyrimer on Twitter and Derek at Derek Rhyrimer on Twitter and Derek Ryr.com. Is that right? You blog a Ryr.com. Is that right? You blog a Ryr.com. Is that right? You blog a little bit there. little bit there. little bit there. And then of course for people who listen And then of course for people who listen And then of course for people who listen to podcasts, the art of product podcast to podcasts, the art of product podcast to podcasts, the art of product podcast comes out every Friday morning. comes out every Friday morning. comes out every Friday morning. Thursday. Thursday. Thursday. Is that right? Thursday. Is it? Yeah. I Is that right? Thursday. Is it? Yeah. I Is that right? Thursday. Is it? Yeah. I was thinking it was tomorrow and today's was thinking it was tomorrow and today's was thinking it was tomorrow and today's Wednesday. All right. You're right.

Wednesday. All right. You're right. Wednesday. All right. You're right. Thursday morning. Cool. Well, anyways, Thursday morning. Cool. Well, anyways, Thursday morning. Cool. Well, anyways, man, thanks for joining me. Appreciate man, thanks for joining me. Appreciate man, thanks for joining me. Appreciate it. it. it. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Well, if you have not checked Awesome. Well, if you have not checked Awesome. Well, if you have not checked out microcomot.com, out microcomot.com, out microcomot.com, you can see the remote event, the you can see the remote event, the you can see the remote event, the virtual event we did a couple weeks ago, virtual event we did a couple weeks ago, virtual event we did a couple weeks ago, and uh purchase access to that for I and uh purchase access to that for I and uh purchase access to that for I think it's $25 for four and a half hours think it's $25 for four and a half hours think it's $25 for four and a half hours of live streaming. Thank you so much to of live streaming. Thank you so much to of live streaming. Thank you so much to Derek Rhyr for coming on the show today. Derek Rhyr for coming on the show today. Derek Rhyr for coming on the show today. I thought that was a really fun I thought that was a really fun I thought that was a really fun conversation. Thanks. Thank you for conversation. Thanks. Thank you for conversation. Thanks. Thank you for listening and asking those awesome listening and asking those awesome listening and asking those awesome questions. And also thanks to hey.com questions. And also thanks to hey.com questions. And also thanks to hey.com and Stripe who are headline partners for and Stripe who are headline partners for and Stripe who are headline partners for the year. Really appreciate their the year. Really appreciate their the year. Really appreciate their partnership with Microcom. partnership with Microcom. partnership with Microcom. That's it. See you again next week. Same That's it. See you again next week. Same That's it. See you again next week. Same time, same place.