Building a Billion-Dollar SaaS Business with Jason Cohen 📈📈

you're in this room because you don't you're in this room because you don't want anyone telling you what to do want anyone telling you what to do want anyone telling you what to do that's the deal like let's be honest get that's the deal like let's be honest get that's the deal like let's be honest get rich and no one tells you what to do so rich and no one tells you what to do so rich and no one tells you what to do so you start a company where your customers you start a company where your customers you start a company where your customers tell you what to do your employees do tell you what to do your employees do tell you what to do your employees do whatever they want like God forbid you whatever they want like God forbid you whatever they want like God forbid you have investors they're telling you what have investors they're telling you what have investors they're telling you what to do so oops you you failed love to to do so oops you you failed love to to do so oops you you failed love to introduce to you introduce to you introduce to you someone that I'm guessing most of you someone that I'm guessing most of you someone that I'm guessing most of you know Mr Jason Cohen can we give him a know Mr Jason Cohen can we give him a know Mr Jason Cohen can we give him a more micro comp welcome Jason is the founder and the CIO of uh Jason is the founder and the CIO of uh so up on the slide it said CEO and man so up on the slide it said CEO and man so up on the slide it said CEO and man in my card says CTO but it turns out in my card says CTO but it turns out in my card says CTO but it turns out he's the CIO Chief Innovation officer at he's the CIO Chief Innovation officer at he's the CIO Chief Innovation officer at WP engine and he started WP engine back WP engine and he started WP engine back WP engine and he started WP engine back in 2011 2010 and in fact interesting in 2011 2010 and in fact interesting in 2011 2010 and in fact interesting story that I might touch on a little story that I might touch on a little story that I might touch on a little more later more later more later um um um my first ever Angel investment was in WP my first ever Angel investment was in WP my first ever Angel investment was in WP engine and when Jason Cohen emails you engine and when Jason Cohen emails you engine and when Jason Cohen emails you and says hey so I have this over and says hey so I have this over and says hey so I have this over subscribe Brown and I'm starting this subscribe Brown and I'm starting this subscribe Brown and I'm starting this new thing I literally didn't even ask new thing I literally didn't even ask new thing I literally didn't even ask him what it was and I think you were him what it was and I think you were him what it was and I think you were supposed to attach a deck and you didn't supposed to attach a deck and you didn't supposed to attach a deck and you didn't and I was just like I don't care I'm and I was just like I don't care I'm and I was just like I don't care I'm going to write this guy a check and it going to write this guy a check and it going to write this guy a check and it was right after I had just purchased a was right after I had just purchased a was right after I had just purchased a small SAS application it didn't really small SAS application it didn't really small SAS application it didn't really have the money to invest and Jason said have the money to invest and Jason said have the money to invest and Jason said the minimum is 25 Grand but whatever you the minimum is 25 Grand but whatever you the minimum is 25 Grand but whatever you can throw in and I was like God I wish I can throw in and I was like God I wish I can throw in and I was like God I wish I could put in 25 000 but I robbed Peter could put in 25 000 but I robbed Peter could put in 25 000 but I robbed Peter to pay Paul and I uh wound up investing to pay Paul and I uh wound up investing to pay Paul and I uh wound up investing 20 grand in that first round and 20 grand in that first round and 20 grand in that first round and a little bit in the second and then when a little bit in the second and then when a little bit in the second and then when we exited early stage investors exited we exited early stage investors exited we exited early stage investors exited in 2018 it bought my house

in 2018 it bought my house in 2018 it bought my house so thanks sir yeah it was a big deal so with that you started WP engine in so with that you started WP engine in 2010 and I remember you you like 2010 and I remember you you like 2010 and I remember you you like bootstrapped into profitability then bootstrapped into profitability then bootstrapped into profitability then raised some funding and then raised some funding and then raised some funding and then bootstrapped it again not bootstrap but bootstrapped it again not bootstrap but bootstrapped it again not bootstrap but you got its profitability again you got its profitability again you got its profitability again um and today like where is where's WP um and today like where is where's WP um and today like where is where's WP engine employees Revenue whatever you engine employees Revenue whatever you engine employees Revenue whatever you can talk about uh so we have about 1100 can talk about uh so we have about 1100 can talk about uh so we have about 1100 people globally and they used to come people globally and they used to come people globally and they used to come into offices like this one they no into offices like this one they no into offices like this one they no longer do at least not in the main longer do at least not in the main longer do at least not in the main um but so everyone's almost always work um but so everyone's almost always work um but so everyone's almost always work from home or from home or from home or some kind of space that we we have some kind of space that we we have some kind of space that we we have um um um but we have about 200 000 customers we but we have about 200 000 customers we but we have about 200 000 customers we power power power um we power about 2.5 percent of the um we power about 2.5 percent of the um we power about 2.5 percent of the internet internet internet like not just WordPress which is our like not just WordPress which is our like not just WordPress which is our which is what we host specifically but which is what we host specifically but which is what we host specifically but of all websites so that's a lot because of all websites so that's a lot because of all websites so that's a lot because you know two and a half percent times you know two and a half percent times you know two and a half percent times infinity is a big number you know it's infinity is a big number you know it's infinity is a big number you know it's like halfway to Infinity like halfway to Infinity like halfway to Infinity um and uh yeah so so it's it's exciting um and uh yeah so so it's it's exciting um and uh yeah so so it's it's exciting because we have a lot of we have a lot because we have a lot of we have a lot because we have a lot of we have a lot of problems due to scale human scale and of problems due to scale human scale and of problems due to scale human scale and technology and that's fun that's a technology and that's fun that's a technology and that's fun that's a different kind of problem of course but different kind of problem of course but different kind of problem of course but uh that's exciting and your startup uh that's exciting and your startup uh that's exciting and your startup right before WP engine was called smart right before WP engine was called smart right before WP engine was called smart bear and you sold that you blogged about bear and you sold that you blogged about bear and you sold that you blogged about this in public so you you sold it for this in public so you you sold it for this in public so you you sold it for enough money that you never had to work enough money that you never had to work enough money that you never had to work again like you could have retired you again like you could have retired you again like you could have retired you were in your early 30s if I remember were in your early 30s if I remember were in your early 30s if I remember so why go back to the drawing board like so why go back to the drawing board like so why go back to the drawing board like what was the impetus and you did take what was the impetus and you did take what was the impetus and you did take some time off you blogged a lot that's some time off you blogged a lot that's some time off you blogged a lot that's where you and I got to know each other

where you and I got to know each other where you and I got to know each other your blog you did some speaking your blog you did some speaking your blog you did some speaking um and then you got the bug what was um and then you got the bug what was um and then you got the bug what was that process like yeah that process like yeah that process like yeah um um um so at smart bear I started this blow so at smart bear I started this blow so at smart bear I started this blow that was cool in the 2000s to have a that was cool in the 2000s to have a that was cool in the 2000s to have a Blog and I thought it'll be like 37 Blog and I thought it'll be like 37 Blog and I thought it'll be like 37 signals where everyone will post on signals where everyone will post on signals where everyone will post on there and it'll be our culture and then there and it'll be our culture and then there and it'll be our culture and then no one ever posted on there but me which no one ever posted on there but me which no one ever posted on there but me which probably was our culture probably was our culture probably was our culture and uh anyway so when I sold it in 2007 and uh anyway so when I sold it in 2007 and uh anyway so when I sold it in 2007 and I left in 2009 because my wife was and I left in 2009 because my wife was and I left in 2009 because my wife was pregnant and I bootstrapped uh also pregnant and I bootstrapped uh also pregnant and I bootstrapped uh also smart bear for that was a total of seven smart bear for that was a total of seven smart bear for that was a total of seven years then years then years then um so everyone in this room knows that's um so everyone in this room knows that's um so everyone in this room knows that's hard so yeah take a break of course hard so yeah take a break of course hard so yeah take a break of course having a kid is not having a break so I having a kid is not having a break so I having a kid is not having a break so I don't know what I was thinking but I don't know what I was thinking but I don't know what I was thinking but I guess one is enough one of those two guess one is enough one of those two guess one is enough one of those two things is plenty right things is plenty right things is plenty right um anyway so um anyway so um anyway so so so so I was a stay-at-home dad and writing was I was a stay-at-home dad and writing was I was a stay-at-home dad and writing was a great way to stay in contact with like a great way to stay in contact with like a great way to stay in contact with like the the world do something intellectual the the world do something intellectual the the world do something intellectual in that in that weird period where you in that in that weird period where you in that in that weird period where you know you're not you look outside and know you're not you look outside and know you're not you look outside and you're like I legit do not know if the you're like I legit do not know if the you're like I legit do not know if the Sun is going up or coming down right now Sun is going up or coming down right now Sun is going up or coming down right now but I'm going to sit here with this but I'm going to sit here with this but I'm going to sit here with this thing until it falls asleep so I'm going thing until it falls asleep so I'm going thing until it falls asleep so I'm going to find out yeah to find out yeah to find out yeah anyway in that that mental mode I was anyway in that that mental mode I was anyway in that that mental mode I was able to just keep writing with no able to just keep writing with no able to just keep writing with no deadlines or expectations right so deadlines or expectations right so deadlines or expectations right so that's good it was so that made it a that's good it was so that made it a that's good it was so that made it a good prod project and uh so then the good prod project and uh so then the good prod project and uh so then the blog got popular and it would get on blog got popular and it would get on blog got popular and it would get on things like Hacker News every Monday things like Hacker News every Monday things like Hacker News every Monday which is when I would schedule to post which is when I would schedule to post which is when I would schedule to post and then it would crash a lot because and then it would crash a lot because and then it would crash a lot because you get a lot of traffic if you go to if you get a lot of traffic if you go to if you get a lot of traffic if you go to if you get on Hacker News and so I'd ask you get on Hacker News and so I'd ask you get on Hacker News and so I'd ask other bloggers like how do you keep other bloggers like how do you keep other bloggers like how do you keep WordPress running when you when that WordPress running when you when that WordPress running when you when that happens uh and the answer was always I

happens uh and the answer was always I happens uh and the answer was always I don't know but if you find it tell me don't know but if you find it tell me don't know but if you find it tell me because I need that because I need that because I need that okay so that was the seed and then I did okay so that was the seed and then I did okay so that was the seed and then I did 50 5-0 customer interviews uh because I 50 5-0 customer interviews uh because I 50 5-0 customer interviews uh because I had another idea at the time but I also had another idea at the time but I also had another idea at the time but I also thought was good I also did a bunch of thought was good I also did a bunch of thought was good I also did a bunch of customer reviews and figured out it was customer reviews and figured out it was customer reviews and figured out it was not a good idea I mean it was a fine not a good idea I mean it was a fine not a good idea I mean it was a fine idea it wasn't a good business idea it wasn't a good business idea it wasn't a good business um but then I did the same with smart um but then I did the same with smart um but then I did the same with smart but I found I mean uh WP engine and I but I found I mean uh WP engine and I but I found I mean uh WP engine and I found okay if we made sites fast and found okay if we made sites fast and found okay if we made sites fast and scalable scalable scalable secure and if we had good service they secure and if we had good service they secure and if we had good service they would pay 10 times what they currently would pay 10 times what they currently would pay 10 times what they currently pay people like GoDaddy and Bluehost for pay people like GoDaddy and Bluehost for pay people like GoDaddy and Bluehost for word processing if we did that those word processing if we did that those word processing if we did that those four things four things four things so that was the initial impetus and to so that was the initial impetus and to so that was the initial impetus and to this day if you look above the fold on this day if you look above the fold on this day if you look above the fold on the website you can see speed skill you the website you can see speed skill you the website you can see speed skill you know you can see these Concepts know you can see these Concepts know you can see these Concepts certainly in the first website they were certainly in the first website they were certainly in the first website they were you know straight up bullet points right you know straight up bullet points right you know straight up bullet points right and so that's still why people sign up and so that's still why people sign up and so that's still why people sign up today today today um in the May of course we do a lot of um in the May of course we do a lot of um in the May of course we do a lot of things now we have tools that the people things now we have tools that the people things now we have tools that the people who make WordPress sites use who make WordPress sites use who make WordPress sites use um some of them are used by literally um some of them are used by literally um some of them are used by literally millions of people for free and some are millions of people for free and some are millions of people for free and some are for money we have another one that has a for money we have another one that has a for money we have another one that has a hundred thousand monthly active users so hundred thousand monthly active users so hundred thousand monthly active users so we do now more than just have the we do now more than just have the we do now more than just have the website there's these tools with website there's these tools with website there's these tools with significant customer bases and stuff so significant customer bases and stuff so significant customer bases and stuff so now it's a little bit more broad but uh now it's a little bit more broad but uh now it's a little bit more broad but uh but fundamentally it's still people need but fundamentally it's still people need but fundamentally it's still people need to be online and the website's gonna be to be online and the website's gonna be to be online and the website's gonna be fast and scalable and so this this you fast and scalable and so this this you fast and scalable and so this this you know whenever any of us talk about oh know whenever any of us talk about oh know whenever any of us talk about oh you got to do customer development and you got to do customer development and you got to do customer development and figure out the pain and figure out like figure out the pain and figure out like figure out the pain and figure out like it's still that and it can be true now it's still that and it can be true now it's still that and it can be true now 13 years later almost it'll be 13 years 13 years later almost it'll be 13 years 13 years later almost it'll be 13 years in January in January in January um still still right you were the first um still still right you were the first um still still right you were the first story because I don't know that I'd

story because I don't know that I'd story because I don't know that I'd heard the term customer development heard the term customer development heard the term customer development right Steve Blaine came up with this at right Steve Blaine came up with this at right Steve Blaine came up with this at Stanford and it's often attributed to Stanford and it's often attributed to Stanford and it's often attributed to Eric Reese but it was not it was a Eric Reese but it was not it was a Eric Reese but it was not it was a concept before that and you were the concept before that and you were the concept before that and you were the first person I ever heard who did first person I ever heard who did first person I ever heard who did interviews interviews interviews to to find out if this pain point was a to to find out if this pain point was a to to find out if this pain point was a valid you know going to be a valid valid you know going to be a valid valid you know going to be a valid business and I later I mean my story of business and I later I mean my story of business and I later I mean my story of drip which I started in late 2012 was drip which I started in late 2012 was drip which I started in late 2012 was basically exactly what you did but basically exactly what you did but basically exactly what you did but although I only did I did like maybe 17 although I only did I did like maybe 17 although I only did I did like maybe 17 and I got 10 yeses and I said I'm doing and I got 10 yeses and I said I'm doing and I got 10 yeses and I said I'm doing it because I was I was going to it because I was I was going to it because I was I was going to bootstrap it to a small you know it bootstrap it to a small you know it bootstrap it to a small you know it didn't matter as much but didn't matter as much but didn't matter as much but um I was always struck by this approach um I was always struck by this approach um I was always struck by this approach that it was that it was that it was um it just seemed out of nowhere and um it just seemed out of nowhere and um it just seemed out of nowhere and super Innovative and super smart it's super Innovative and super smart it's super Innovative and super smart it's what everyone knows today like this is what everyone knows today like this is what everyone knows today like this is you've heard this a hundred times now of you've heard this a hundred times now of you've heard this a hundred times now of course find the problem talk to a bunch course find the problem talk to a bunch course find the problem talk to a bunch of people right at the time were you of people right at the time were you of people right at the time were you doing it because you'd heard of customer doing it because you'd heard of customer doing it because you'd heard of customer development or was it kind of like this development or was it kind of like this development or was it kind of like this just seems like the smart like a logical just seems like the smart like a logical just seems like the smart like a logical thing to do thing to do thing to do it's a long time ago so I don't remember it's a long time ago so I don't remember it's a long time ago so I don't remember but I think so I think I've been reading but I think so I think I've been reading but I think so I think I've been reading about stuff and I think when I think about stuff and I think when I think about stuff and I think when I think about the Lean Startup about the Lean Startup about the Lean Startup um um um I feel like the good part about that is I feel like the good part about that is I feel like the good part about that is it got people it got people at least it got people it got people at least it got people it got people at least trying to think more objectively like we trying to think more objectively like we trying to think more objectively like we gotta go actually find out the whole get gotta go actually find out the whole get gotta go actually find out the whole get outside the building which I think is outside the building which I think is outside the building which I think is also Steve blank but anyway in that also Steve blank but anyway in that also Steve blank but anyway in that whole lean movement let's say I think whole lean movement let's say I think whole lean movement let's say I think that's good because people were really that's good because people were really that's good because people were really insular and not getting outside the insular and not getting outside the insular and not getting outside the building we still don't right nobody in building we still don't right nobody in building we still don't right nobody in this room really wants to talk to this room really wants to talk to this room really wants to talk to customers we know what to do listen to customers we know what to do listen to customers we know what to do listen to them you know but so that's a good pull them you know but so that's a good pull them you know but so that's a good pull but I actually feel like the book but I actually feel like the book but I actually feel like the book doesn't really work in other words like doesn't really work in other words like doesn't really work in other words like do you think that like people who use do you think that like people who use do you think that like people who use the link start method are less likely to

the link start method are less likely to the link start method are less likely to fail I don't I don't observe that I fail I don't I don't observe that I fail I don't I don't observe that I don't have any data I'm just saying I don't have any data I'm just saying I don't have any data I'm just saying I don't really observe that it's not if it don't really observe that it's not if it don't really observe that it's not if it is an effect that's so subtle that I is an effect that's so subtle that I is an effect that's so subtle that I can't tell so I do think there's good can't tell so I do think there's good can't tell so I do think there's good impact but I don't think it's a manual impact but I don't think it's a manual impact but I don't think it's a manual like it was sort of meant to be and I've like it was sort of meant to be and I've like it was sort of meant to be and I've told Eric Reese that personally told Eric Reese that personally told Eric Reese that personally and I said well Eric what if since it and I said well Eric what if since it and I said well Eric what if since it works so well why don't you works so well why don't you works so well why don't you um do a startup um do a startup um do a startup and of course he won't he can't because and of course he won't he can't because and of course he won't he can't because like if it does if it's not a raging like if it does if it's not a raging like if it does if it's not a raging success what does that mean now I don't success what does that mean now I don't success what does that mean now I don't blame him for that I wouldn't either you blame him for that I wouldn't either you blame him for that I wouldn't either you know so he's doing his long-term stock know so he's doing his long-term stock know so he's doing his long-term stock market whatever the heck it is market whatever the heck it is market whatever the heck it is um and uh you know just something um and uh you know just something um and uh you know just something orthogonal right which by the way it orthogonal right which by the way it orthogonal right which by the way it seems like a great idea like I hope you seems like a great idea like I hope you seems like a great idea like I hope you succeeds it's you know because it's a succeeds it's you know because it's a succeeds it's you know because it's a cool idea but um cool idea but um cool idea but um um so I feel like there's some ideas and um so I feel like there's some ideas and um so I feel like there's some ideas and customer Discovery or development is one customer Discovery or development is one customer Discovery or development is one of those ideas where it's like yeah we of those ideas where it's like yeah we of those ideas where it's like yeah we probably should you know talk to the probably should you know talk to the probably should you know talk to the customers and listen a little bit I customers and listen a little bit I customers and listen a little bit I guess you know probably guess you know probably guess you know probably but how is is a good question so I do but how is is a good question so I do but how is is a good question so I do have a recent post on how I did it and have a recent post on how I did it and have a recent post on how I did it and how I did it then and how we still I how I did it then and how we still I how I did it then and how we still I still like to do it so we have to go still like to do it so we have to go still like to do it so we have to go into detail because you can just read into detail because you can just read into detail because you can just read that if you want to read it that if you want to read it that if you want to read it um but like because because then it's um but like because because then it's um but like because because then it's like what do you ask exactly right like what do you ask exactly right like what do you ask exactly right you know if you're just asking like do you know if you're just asking like do you know if you're just asking like do you like this feature they're gonna say you like this feature they're gonna say you like this feature they're gonna say yeah sure that's you know that seems yeah sure that's you know that seems yeah sure that's you know that seems pretty good and you haven't learned a pretty good and you haven't learned a pretty good and you haven't learned a damn thing so like that doesn't work so damn thing so like that doesn't work so damn thing so like that doesn't work so then you have to it has to be directed then you have to it has to be directed then you have to it has to be directed in some way besides plugging my own post in some way besides plugging my own post in some way besides plugging my own post it it um and by the way I don't even use it it um and by the way I don't even use it it um and by the way I don't even use analytics on it like I learned a while analytics on it like I learned a while analytics on it like I learned a while ago like don't look at the numbers don't ago like don't look at the numbers don't ago like don't look at the numbers don't try to chase the things just like put it try to chase the things just like put it try to chase the things just like put it up there if people like it they'll like up there if people like it they'll like up there if people like it they'll like it don't even be tempted to look at like

it don't even be tempted to look at like it don't even be tempted to look at like Google Analytics Google Analytics Google Analytics so I don't care if you look at the post so I don't care if you look at the post so I don't care if you look at the post or not or not or not um the other book I really like about um the other book I really like about um the other book I really like about this is Teresa torres's book which I this is Teresa torres's book which I this is Teresa torres's book which I think is the continuous Discovery habits think is the continuous Discovery habits think is the continuous Discovery habits and I think she and her methods are and I think she and her methods are and I think she and her methods are freaking great and you know most freaking great and you know most freaking great and you know most business books you read it it's just business books you read it it's just business books you read it it's just maybe there's a good idea and then maybe there's a good idea and then maybe there's a good idea and then there's like hundreds of pages between there's like hundreds of pages between there's like hundreds of pages between the good ideas of just like filler to the good ideas of just like filler to the good ideas of just like filler to switch so it takes up this much space on switch so it takes up this much space on switch so it takes up this much space on the shelf and they can hard cover it you the shelf and they can hard cover it you the shelf and they can hard cover it you know know know um or there is one really good idea that um or there is one really good idea that um or there is one really good idea that that is worth it really but still in her that is worth it really but still in her that is worth it really but still in her book I don't feel that way I feel like book I don't feel that way I feel like book I don't feel that way I feel like every chapter it's like oh this is good every chapter it's like oh this is good every chapter it's like oh this is good you know you could use this oh I'm gonna you know you could use this oh I'm gonna you know you could use this oh I'm gonna maybe I'm gonna try it like all the time maybe I'm gonna try it like all the time maybe I'm gonna try it like all the time it's like a so I really write no no it's like a so I really write no no it's like a so I really write no no [ __ ] at all and in particular she [ __ ] at all and in particular she [ __ ] at all and in particular she does talk about customer interviews but does talk about customer interviews but does talk about customer interviews but also what do you do with that afterwards also what do you do with that afterwards also what do you do with that afterwards okay so you've interviewed now you have okay so you've interviewed now you have okay so you've interviewed now you have this pile of stuff and now what like how this pile of stuff and now what like how this pile of stuff and now what like how do you organize that somehow and and in do you organize that somehow and and in do you organize that somehow and and in some way so that you can like get us get some way so that you can like get us get some way so that you can like get us get a feeling for things share it with other a feeling for things share it with other a feeling for things share it with other people of course so you might need to people of course so you might need to people of course so you might need to work with like engineers and so on work with like engineers and so on work with like engineers and so on designers maybe designers maybe designers maybe um and then maybe pick what to do next um and then maybe pick what to do next um and then maybe pick what to do next exactly and so she has thoughts in there exactly and so she has thoughts in there exactly and so she has thoughts in there like another thing for example that I like another thing for example that I like another thing for example that I really like that she didn't invent but really like that she didn't invent but really like that she didn't invent but it's just an example of another great it's just an example of another great it's just an example of another great thing from the book Is Right storming so thing from the book Is Right storming so thing from the book Is Right storming so like for the last year especially with like for the last year especially with like for the last year especially with covid this has been exciting for me I covid this has been exciting for me I covid this has been exciting for me I know I'm just going off on a tangent but know I'm just going off on a tangent but know I'm just going off on a tangent but but it's like brainstorming again like I but it's like brainstorming again like I but it's like brainstorming again like I always feel like brainstorming didn't always feel like brainstorming didn't always feel like brainstorming didn't work that well like you get everyone a work that well like you get everyone a work that well like you get everyone a room you're like now think of stuff and room you're like now think of stuff and room you're like now think of stuff and everyone's like um you know and then everyone's like um you know and then everyone's like um you know and then maybe someone has a halfway decent idea maybe someone has a halfway decent idea maybe someone has a halfway decent idea so the room sort of gloms onto it and so the room sort of gloms onto it and so the room sort of gloms onto it and yeah I don't know it just doesn't feel yeah I don't know it just doesn't feel yeah I don't know it just doesn't feel good and then in the zoom era forget

good and then in the zoom era forget good and then in the zoom era forget about it because you can't you know and about it because you can't you know and about it because you can't you know and so so so there's this thing I guess is roughly there's this thing I guess is roughly there's this thing I guess is roughly turn bright storing where you have turn bright storing where you have turn bright storing where you have people understand the problem first people understand the problem first people understand the problem first maybe that's a short meeting to get like maybe that's a short meeting to get like maybe that's a short meeting to get like on the same page about the problem okay on the same page about the problem okay on the same page about the problem okay but then maybe for the next week but then maybe for the next week but then maybe for the next week whenever people want that's another nice whenever people want that's another nice whenever people want that's another nice thing whenever it's you know nice for thing whenever it's you know nice for thing whenever it's you know nice for them to work you you do brainstorm alone them to work you you do brainstorm alone them to work you you do brainstorm alone so right storming then you come back so right storming then you come back so right storming then you come back together but now since everyone's had together but now since everyone's had together but now since everyone's had the space to think you know different the space to think you know different the space to think you know different people think different ways I you know people think different ways I you know people think different ways I you know one person may want a lot of time to one person may want a lot of time to one person may want a lot of time to ruminate someone else is like I just ruminate someone else is like I just ruminate someone else is like I just fired off and I'm done like great this fired off and I'm done like great this fired off and I'm done like great this some people are good in the morning or some people are good in the morning or some people are good in the morning or the evening great everyone can sort of the evening great everyone can sort of the evening great everyone can sort of work in the way that makes sense for work in the way that makes sense for work in the way that makes sense for this kind of work which is different so this kind of work which is different so this kind of work which is different so then when you come together you got your then when you come together you got your then when you come together you got your stuff so there's no like oh that was a stuff so there's no like oh that was a stuff so there's no like oh that was a good idea so we stopped no no you've good idea so we stopped no no you've good idea so we stopped no no you've already got these so you really do get already got these so you really do get already got these so you really do get everyone's ideas out there and you know everyone's ideas out there and you know everyone's ideas out there and you know you and then you go from there of course you and then you go from there of course you and then you go from there of course but it's just such a better way and also but it's just such a better way and also but it's just such a better way and also there's a study that showed and the there's a study that showed and the there's a study that showed and the study who knows today's probably study who knows today's probably study who knows today's probably [ __ ] who again who even knows when [ __ ] who again who even knows when [ __ ] who again who even knows when it's a study I don't know what that it's a study I don't know what that it's a study I don't know what that means but there was a study that showed means but there was a study that showed means but there was a study that showed that um that um that um um when you try to do normal um when you try to do normal um when you try to do normal brainstorming on Zoom it does not work brainstorming on Zoom it does not work brainstorming on Zoom it does not work but when you already have the ideas like but when you already have the ideas like but when you already have the ideas like they're in the mirror board or the they're in the mirror board or the they're in the mirror board or the Google Doc and then on Zoom you're Google Doc and then on Zoom you're Google Doc and then on Zoom you're arguing about it that does work I was arguing about it that does work I was arguing about it that does work I was like oh this is another like remote work like oh this is another like remote work like oh this is another like remote work trick in this one area is Right storm trick in this one area is Right storm trick in this one area is Right storm and then discuss together that's a good and then discuss together that's a good and then discuss together that's a good use of time so anyway that's another use of time so anyway that's another use of time so anyway that's another thing I got out of her book again I thing I got out of her book again I thing I got out of her book again I don't think she invented it but who don't think she invented it but who don't think she invented it but who cares it's an assemblage of fantastic cares it's an assemblage of fantastic cares it's an assemblage of fantastic ideas then you know so be it yeah

ideas then you know so be it yeah ideas then you know so be it yeah oh yeah so the author is Teresa Torres oh yeah so the author is Teresa Torres oh yeah so the author is Teresa Torres and the book is called continuous and the book is called continuous and the book is called continuous Discovery habits she was also on a Discovery habits she was also on a Discovery habits she was also on a podcast with uh Lenny richardski now you podcast with uh Lenny richardski now you podcast with uh Lenny richardski now you say that Lenny's podcast and uh again say that Lenny's podcast and uh again say that Lenny's podcast and uh again she's fabulous on that because of course she's fabulous on that because of course she's fabulous on that because of course she is and uh yeah so I'm a huge fan of she is and uh yeah so I'm a huge fan of she is and uh yeah so I'm a huge fan of that yeah that's great it's a good that yeah that's great it's a good that yeah that's great it's a good recommendation so one question I asked recommendation so one question I asked recommendation so one question I asked of Founders on the podcast and I asked of Founders on the podcast and I asked of Founders on the podcast and I asked it so often that we even have a musical it so often that we even have a musical it so often that we even have a musical sting that plays and the question and it sting that plays and the question and it sting that plays and the question and it involves a cash registering but I say involves a cash registering but I say involves a cash registering but I say when did you know you had product Market when did you know you had product Market when did you know you had product Market fit that's the question I ask and I fit that's the question I ask and I fit that's the question I ask and I usually catch it by saying look product usually catch it by saying look product usually catch it by saying look product Market fit I don't believe it's not one Market fit I don't believe it's not one Market fit I don't believe it's not one or zero it's a Continuum you get weak or zero it's a Continuum you get weak or zero it's a Continuum you get weak and then it's stronger stronger stronger and then it's stronger stronger stronger and then it's stronger stronger stronger and then you'll find that you only have and then you'll find that you only have and then you'll find that you only have strong stronger part of America fit with strong stronger part of America fit with strong stronger part of America fit with a certain audience and then as you a certain audience and then as you a certain audience and then as you Branch into others it's weaker Branch into others it's weaker Branch into others it's weaker whether you agree with all that or not whether you agree with all that or not whether you agree with all that or not if I were to ask you that question like if I were to ask you that question like if I were to ask you that question like with WP engine like when did you know with WP engine like when did you know with WP engine like when did you know you have Hardware fit how would you how you have Hardware fit how would you how you have Hardware fit how would you how would you describe it yeah it was would you describe it yeah it was would you describe it yeah it was January of 2012. and the reason I know January of 2012. and the reason I know January of 2012. and the reason I know do you seriously remember that yeah and do you seriously remember that yeah and do you seriously remember that yeah and the reason I know was because suddenly the reason I know was because suddenly the reason I know was because suddenly like all you could do is try to keep up like all you could do is try to keep up like all you could do is try to keep up with customer demand and you literally with customer demand and you literally with customer demand and you literally you can't do anything else there's you can't do anything else there's you can't do anything else there's there's the support tickets are flying there's the support tickets are flying there's the support tickets are flying in which you know is not necessarily in which you know is not necessarily in which you know is not necessarily that's not part of the good news right that's not part of the good news right that's not part of the good news right but just like the here come the orders but just like the here come the orders but just like the here come the orders here come the support you just can't here come the support you just can't here come the support you just can't even think about like let's make a new even think about like let's make a new even think about like let's make a new feature are you kidding me we have this feature are you kidding me we have this feature are you kidding me we have this backlog of tickets even of people backlog of tickets even of people backlog of tickets even of people signing up and migrating and this and signing up and migrating and this and signing up and migrating and this and that and you just can't keep up and then that and you just can't keep up and then that and you just can't keep up and then then now you're buried and hiring is

then now you're buried and hiring is then now you're buried and hiring is hard because you're too busy and also hard because you're too busy and also hard because you're too busy and also you don't have a hiring practice of any you don't have a hiring practice of any you don't have a hiring practice of any kind of course you don't why would you kind of course you don't why would you kind of course you don't why would you and so like when this happened to us we and so like when this happened to us we and so like when this happened to us we were four people this was two years in were four people this was two years in were four people this was two years in we're still only just four maybe we're we're still only just four maybe we're we're still only just four maybe we're five people actually so again kind of a five people actually so again kind of a five people actually so again kind of a typical bootstrap thing two years in it typical bootstrap thing two years in it typical bootstrap thing two years in it is going well is going well is going well um in generally speaking I think we were um in generally speaking I think we were um in generally speaking I think we were around billion in Revenue at that point around billion in Revenue at that point around billion in Revenue at that point and four people four or five people so and four people four or five people so and four people four or five people so again profitability like you said again profitability like you said again profitability like you said um and then oh God and we went from one um and then oh God and we went from one um and then oh God and we went from one to five that year to five that year to five that year and we just and we kept going like nuts and we just and we kept going like nuts and we just and we kept going like nuts you know and just it was that hockey you know and just it was that hockey you know and just it was that hockey stick thing and um and what happened is stick thing and um and what happened is stick thing and um and what happened is we changed pricing we changed pricing we changed pricing that's what caused it well it's hard to that's what caused it well it's hard to that's what caused it well it's hard to run the experiment again sure but that run the experiment again sure but that run the experiment again sure but that happened happened happened you change pricing then that happens you change pricing then that happens you change pricing then that happens there's also it turns out a season I there's also it turns out a season I there's also it turns out a season I mean now that we're far away from 2012 mean now that we're far away from 2012 mean now that we're far away from 2012 there's a seasonality for us that the there's a seasonality for us that the there's a seasonality for us that the first quarter of the Year people are first quarter of the Year people are first quarter of the Year people are building websites building websites building websites um however again that the previous two um however again that the previous two um however again that the previous two years that wasn't like that and again it years that wasn't like that and again it years that wasn't like that and again it never ended so it wasn't just never ended so it wasn't just never ended so it wasn't just seasonality but maybe that was a little seasonality but maybe that was a little seasonality but maybe that was a little kicker like maybe there were people at kicker like maybe there were people at kicker like maybe there were people at the end of the previous year thinking the end of the previous year thinking the end of the previous year thinking and so maybe there's a little bit and so maybe there's a little bit and so maybe there's a little bit catching up but um yeah it was pricing catching up but um yeah it was pricing catching up but um yeah it was pricing and and so since that's always a topic and and so since that's always a topic and and so since that's always a topic and I know in the new book The Hero and I know in the new book The Hero and I know in the new book The Hero pricing is one of the topics let's see pricing is one of the topics let's see pricing is one of the topics let's see it should be and everyone wonders about it should be and everyone wonders about it should be and everyone wonders about pricing of course nobody knows exactly pricing of course nobody knows exactly pricing of course nobody knows exactly what to do and everyone will tell you what to do and everyone will tell you what to do and everyone will tell you the usual things you got to do anchoring the usual things you got to do anchoring the usual things you got to do anchoring you're like I know but like what should you're like I know but like what should you're like I know but like what should I charge for it you know I charge for it you know I charge for it you know um well we I did actually talk to a lot um well we I did actually talk to a lot um well we I did actually talk to a lot of customers like I don't want to harp of customers like I don't want to harp of customers like I don't want to harp on the customer Discovery but I did and

on the customer Discovery but I did and on the customer Discovery but I did and so I heard certain things such as people so I heard certain things such as people so I heard certain things such as people would say listen for my I have this one would say listen for my I have this one would say listen for my I have this one really big website and I'm happy to pay really big website and I'm happy to pay really big website and I'm happy to pay a hundred dollars a month for it that's a hundred dollars a month for it that's a hundred dollars a month for it that's fine no problem fine no problem fine no problem but I have like this one other side I but I have like this one other side I but I have like this one other side I make it's for my mom she's got like an make it's for my mom she's got like an make it's for my mom she's got like an art studio it gets two hits per month art studio it gets two hits per month art studio it gets two hits per month you know are you telling me I need to you know are you telling me I need to you know are you telling me I need to keep my account with this other thing keep my account with this other thing keep my account with this other thing and you know and you know and you know per site yeah yeah yeah yeah sorry yeah per site yeah yeah yeah yeah sorry yeah per site yeah yeah yeah yeah sorry yeah 100 like come on just let me move the 100 like come on just let me move the 100 like come on just let me move the little crap site like what are you doing little crap site like what are you doing little crap site like what are you doing um so that was one thing it's like oh at um so that was one thing it's like oh at um so that was one thing it's like oh at the higher plans there should just be the higher plans there should just be the higher plans there should just be more sites that was a revelation it more sites that was a revelation it more sites that was a revelation it doesn't sound all that like freaking doesn't sound all that like freaking doesn't sound all that like freaking insightful right like okay but no one insightful right like okay but no one insightful right like okay but no one else was doing it and you know I only else was doing it and you know I only else was doing it and you know I only figured out because I kept hearing that figured out because I kept hearing that figured out because I kept hearing that type of thing oh my friend oh my and it type of thing oh my friend oh my and it type of thing oh my friend oh my and it was like okay or maybe it was a was like okay or maybe it was a was like okay or maybe it was a freelancer while they're working on a freelancer while they're working on a freelancer while they're working on a site they need a place to put it before site they need a place to put it before site they need a place to put it before it launches and it's like okay so you it launches and it's like okay so you it launches and it's like okay so you got these different signals that say got these different signals that say got these different signals that say that would work another thing was the that would work another thing was the that would work another thing was the lowest tier was fifty dollars a month it lowest tier was fifty dollars a month it lowest tier was fifty dollars a month it turned out it needed to be 29 a month turned out it needed to be 29 a month turned out it needed to be 29 a month and what people would say is and what people would say is and what people would say is um we'll have these people at GoDaddy um we'll have these people at GoDaddy um we'll have these people at GoDaddy for five dollars a month and I can get for five dollars a month and I can get for five dollars a month and I can get them to pay more I can tell them them to pay more I can tell them them to pay more I can tell them security speed okay security speed okay security speed okay but 10x I can't get them 10x but I could but 10x I can't get them 10x but I could but 10x I can't get them 10x but I could get them like maybe to 20 maybe 30 bucks get them like maybe to 20 maybe 30 bucks get them like maybe to 20 maybe 30 bucks like I get them there but like mentally like I get them there but like mentally like I get them there but like mentally I can't get them to 50 and so I can't get them to 50 and so I can't get them to 50 and so there's always this notion of price uh there's always this notion of price uh there's always this notion of price uh in pricing of like in pricing of like in pricing of like you could you could generically call it you could you could generically call it you could you could generically call it something like willingness to pay and something like willingness to pay and something like willingness to pay and again it's true but I think there's again it's true but I think there's again it's true but I think there's something more something more something more in subtle about it of like I

in subtle about it of like I in subtle about it of like I it probably is worth 50 but they can't it probably is worth 50 but they can't it probably is worth 50 but they can't do that in one shot like mentally that's do that in one shot like mentally that's do that in one shot like mentally that's not how they think about it and that not how they think about it and that not how they think about it and that kind of emotional how are they even kind of emotional how are they even kind of emotional how are they even thinking about it and it wasn't about thinking about it and it wasn't about thinking about it and it wasn't about anchoring or you know that's not what it anchoring or you know that's not what it anchoring or you know that's not what it was about so that's interesting of just was about so that's interesting of just was about so that's interesting of just like how do people think about it like how do people think about it like how do people think about it another challenge I think a lot of another challenge I think a lot of another challenge I think a lot of bootstrap companies run into is many bootstrap companies run into is many bootstrap companies run into is many bootstrap companies the the product is bootstrap companies the the product is bootstrap companies the the product is some kind of adjoint to another product some kind of adjoint to another product some kind of adjoint to another product we're a plug into WordPress there's we're a plug into WordPress there's we're a plug into WordPress there's there's literally a thousand bootstrap there's literally a thousand bootstrap there's literally a thousand bootstrap companies that are plug into WordPress companies that are plug into WordPress companies that are plug into WordPress right so that's I have to know about right so that's I have to know about right so that's I have to know about those a lot you know but a lot of them those a lot you know but a lot of them those a lot you know but a lot of them are you know we're this for Salesforce are you know we're this for Salesforce are you know we're this for Salesforce or the you know of course because or the you know of course because or the you know of course because there's some ecosystem and you can get a there's some ecosystem and you can get a there's some ecosystem and you can get a you can be a part of that it just makes you can be a part of that it just makes you can be a part of that it just makes sense sense sense um there's nothing wrong with that but um there's nothing wrong with that but um there's nothing wrong with that but it does set the price because you know it does set the price because you know it does set the price because you know well if I already paid the main company well if I already paid the main company well if I already paid the main company X so how could I also pay a x to a X so how could I also pay a x to a X so how could I also pay a x to a plug-in that's clearly some kind of plug-in that's clearly some kind of plug-in that's clearly some kind of small component this is a super common small component this is a super common small component this is a super common thing right like so that kind of mental thing right like so that kind of mental thing right like so that kind of mental thing I guess you could call that thing I guess you could call that thing I guess you could call that anchoring maybe but I think it's more anchoring maybe but I think it's more anchoring maybe but I think it's more again it's more interesting and specific again it's more interesting and specific again it's more interesting and specific than just I see a price and I see than just I see a price and I see than just I see a price and I see another price you know anyway so that another price you know anyway so that another price you know anyway so that was one and then the last and then two was one and then the last and then two was one and then the last and then two more things one is because maybe this is more things one is because maybe this is more things one is because maybe this is relevant or useful I don't know relevant or useful I don't know relevant or useful I don't know um one was we just made the most um one was we just made the most um one was we just made the most expensive one called business expensive one called business expensive one called business does that work I have no idea I honestly does that work I have no idea I honestly does that work I have no idea I honestly have no clue if that worked but we did have no clue if that worked but we did have no clue if that worked but we did it and then the other thing was we had a it and then the other thing was we had a it and then the other thing was we had a um we had a two-week free trial um we had a two-week free trial um we had a two-week free trial which was kind of special because in which was kind of special because in which was kind of special because in hosting you don't have free like now you hosting you don't have free like now you hosting you don't have free like now you do in in a cloud they they give you free do in in a cloud they they give you free do in in a cloud they they give you free stuff stuff stuff um but then like nobody did free because um but then like nobody did free because um but then like nobody did free because it costs money immediately like there is it costs money immediately like there is it costs money immediately like there is physically a server and you're paying physically a server and you're paying physically a server and you're paying for power and and bandwidth like it does for power and and bandwidth like it does for power and and bandwidth like it does cost so like it's not like in software

cost so like it's not like in software cost so like it's not like in software where it's free and that's okay it's where it's free and that's okay it's where it's free and that's okay it's like not okay so it was pretty cool that like not okay so it was pretty cool that like not okay so it was pretty cool that we did that we did that we did that but we had a 90 percent but we had a 90 percent but we had a 90 percent 90 success rate after the two weeks so I 90 success rate after the two weeks so I 90 success rate after the two weeks so I was looking at going like well number was looking at going like well number was looking at going like well number one that's product Market fit when your one that's product Market fit when your one that's product Market fit when your trial is a 90 conversion rate and number trial is a 90 conversion rate and number trial is a 90 conversion rate and number two we're just losing two weeks of two we're just losing two weeks of two we're just losing two weeks of Revenue right like apparently they knew Revenue right like apparently they knew Revenue right like apparently they knew they were going to be here they were going to be here they were going to be here so I was like all right let's try a so I was like all right let's try a so I was like all right let's try a 60-day money-back guarantee 60-day money-back guarantee 60-day money-back guarantee you're gonna give them give me the money you're gonna give them give me the money you're gonna give them give me the money now but I'll like give it back now but I'll like give it back now but I'll like give it back and I actually thought this would not and I actually thought this would not and I actually thought this would not work I've tried it anyway but I figured work I've tried it anyway but I figured work I've tried it anyway but I figured people would be like I don't know if people would be like I don't know if people would be like I don't know if you're gonna give it back and you know you're gonna give it back and you know you're gonna give it back and you know like I don't know if like I don't know if like I don't know if um I'll have to ask for it instead of um I'll have to ask for it instead of um I'll have to ask for it instead of you know just but actually uh sales went you know just but actually uh sales went you know just but actually uh sales went up and when I would ask people about it up and when I would ask people about it up and when I would ask people about it and I probably should ask them before and I probably should ask them before and I probably should ask them before but oh well but oh well but oh well um they said uh oh we had before when it um they said uh oh we had before when it um they said uh oh we had before when it was two weeks that wasn't enough time was two weeks that wasn't enough time was two weeks that wasn't enough time but two months that's enough time for me but two months that's enough time for me but two months that's enough time for me to check it out to check it out to check it out it was like okay they were just thinking it was like okay they were just thinking it was like okay they were just thinking about the time that's interesting about the time that's interesting about the time that's interesting because I bet that if you had a you know because I bet that if you had a you know because I bet that if you had a you know 60 or 90 day money back guarantee you 60 or 90 day money back guarantee you 60 or 90 day money back guarantee you know most people are not gonna do it and know most people are not gonna do it and know most people are not gonna do it and you know but if in their mind that's you know but if in their mind that's you know but if in their mind that's more time maybe that's good I don't know more time maybe that's good I don't know more time maybe that's good I don't know or you could try it for just a month and or you could try it for just a month and or you could try it for just a month and see and then undo it who cares because see and then undo it who cares because see and then undo it who cares because it's specifically for new customers so it's specifically for new customers so it's specifically for new customers so that's the easiest way to test is with that's the easiest way to test is with that's the easiest way to test is with if it's specifically for new customers if it's specifically for new customers if it's specifically for new customers you can just undo it of course you know you can just undo it of course you know you can just undo it of course you know so anyway so that that happened to work so anyway so that that happened to work so anyway so that that happened to work for us for us for us um and that that was coincident with um and that that was coincident with um and that that was coincident with this with this enormous change right and this with this enormous change right and this with this enormous change right and if you haven't watched I referenced it if you haven't watched I referenced it if you haven't watched I referenced it earlier but there's a talk on our earlier but there's a talk on our earlier but there's a talk on our YouTube channel called building the YouTube channel called building the YouTube channel called building the ideal bootstrap business I think it's

ideal bootstrap business I think it's ideal bootstrap business I think it's called and it's Jason Cohen from 2012 13 called and it's Jason Cohen from 2012 13 called and it's Jason Cohen from 2012 13 somewhere in that range and he talked a somewhere in that range and he talked a somewhere in that range and he talked a lot more about the money back guarantee lot more about the money back guarantee lot more about the money back guarantee the charging up front eliminating trial the charging up front eliminating trial the charging up front eliminating trial a bunch of other stuff so it's when I a bunch of other stuff so it's when I a bunch of other stuff so it's when I when I say it's the I I refer to it as when I say it's the I I refer to it as when I say it's the I I refer to it as the best talk ever about bootstrapping a the best talk ever about bootstrapping a the best talk ever about bootstrapping a company which is it pains me that I company which is it pains me that I company which is it pains me that I haven't done that but he last week so he's it's been the number last week so he's it's been the number one video on our on the Microsoft one video on our on the Microsoft one video on our on the Microsoft YouTube channel for you forever and YouTube channel for you forever and YouTube channel for you forever and finally I passed it but I with a video finally I passed it but I with a video finally I passed it but I with a video like seven SAS ideas you should steal like seven SAS ideas you should steal like seven SAS ideas you should steal today it's like not not what I want to today it's like not not what I want to today it's like not not what I want to be known for right it's like okay can't be known for right it's like okay can't be known for right it's like okay can't I have the amazing framework that I have the amazing framework that I have the amazing framework that everyone refers to everyone refers to everyone refers to um so a couple other questions as so you um so a couple other questions as so you um so a couple other questions as so you know we're talking about product Market know we're talking about product Market know we're talking about product Market fit and and measuring that and obviously fit and and measuring that and obviously fit and and measuring that and obviously like uh support tickets going up like uh support tickets going up like uh support tickets going up um trial to paid being amazing mrr is a um trial to paid being amazing mrr is a um trial to paid being amazing mrr is a thing these are all metrics right and thing these are all metrics right and thing these are all metrics right and and a lot of folks get overwhelmed by and a lot of folks get overwhelmed by and a lot of folks get overwhelmed by saying well there's I can measure 10 20 saying well there's I can measure 10 20 saying well there's I can measure 10 20 different metrics in my startup early different metrics in my startup early different metrics in my startup early stage let's say you're half a million stage let's say you're half a million stage let's say you're half a million ARR or a million whatever early stage ARR or a million whatever early stage ARR or a million whatever early stage bootstrap mostly bootstrap were there bootstrap mostly bootstrap were there bootstrap mostly bootstrap were there one or two metrics that you were just one or two metrics that you were just one or two metrics that you were just obsessive about that you feel like folks obsessive about that you feel like folks obsessive about that you feel like folks should should pay attention to or is it should should pay attention to or is it should should pay attention to or is it more are there too many more are there too many more are there too many to narrow it down to those so before the to narrow it down to those so before the to narrow it down to those so before the hyper growth started hyper growth started hyper growth started besides just mrr not really it was just

besides just mrr not really it was just besides just mrr not really it was just like try to make the customers happy like try to make the customers happy like try to make the customers happy um I think a lot of companies have a um I think a lot of companies have a um I think a lot of companies have a good cancellation rate early just simply good cancellation rate early just simply good cancellation rate early just simply because there hasn't been enough time because there hasn't been enough time because there hasn't been enough time for people to decide that they don't for people to decide that they don't for people to decide that they don't like it so whenever there's like the like it so whenever there's like the like it so whenever there's like the product's been market for six months and product's been market for six months and product's been market for six months and everyone's still here we have a perfect everyone's still here we have a perfect everyone's still here we have a perfect and it's like just wait that's going to and it's like just wait that's going to and it's like just wait that's going to change you know right change you know right change you know right um so but just trying to keep people um so but just trying to keep people um so but just trying to keep people happy and you know that was that was happy and you know that was that was happy and you know that was that was that was largely it we weren't trying to that was largely it we weren't trying to that was largely it we weren't trying to do LTV or anything nonsense and then do LTV or anything nonsense and then do LTV or anything nonsense and then once product Market fit it was like who once product Market fit it was like who once product Market fit it was like who cares we just need to like cares we just need to like cares we just need to like operate we need we're going to hire operate we need we're going to hire operate we need we're going to hire people and try to just you know fix some people and try to just you know fix some people and try to just you know fix some stuff or automate some stuff and I don't stuff or automate some stuff and I don't stuff or automate some stuff and I don't know it just who can even think about know it just who can even think about know it just who can even think about the metrics you know the metrics you know the metrics you know um now of course we're very um now of course we're very um now of course we're very sophisticated about metal that so I sophisticated about metal that so I sophisticated about metal that so I don't know of course there's not gonna don't know of course there's not gonna don't know of course there's not gonna be one metric that works for all be one metric that works for all be one metric that works for all companies that that should be clear companies that that should be clear companies that that should be clear but a good question is like so how do but a good question is like so how do but a good question is like so how do you pick one that's good for you like you pick one that's good for you like you pick one that's good for you like what do you do about that so I think um what do you do about that so I think um what do you do about that so I think um so I think there's there's obviously the so I think there's there's obviously the so I think there's there's obviously the the inbound vanity metrics in the front the inbound vanity metrics in the front the inbound vanity metrics in the front how much traffic do I get right and you how much traffic do I get right and you how much traffic do I get right and you know that doesn't matter because if that know that doesn't matter because if that know that doesn't matter because if that number changed a lot like nothing would number changed a lot like nothing would number changed a lot like nothing would really happen you wouldn't react to it really happen you wouldn't react to it really happen you wouldn't react to it any any number where you wouldn't really any any number where you wouldn't really any any number where you wouldn't really react to it that's not a key metric react to it that's not a key metric react to it that's not a key metric right right right um and then there's these metrics that um and then there's these metrics that um and then there's these metrics that are the obvious ones like like retention are the obvious ones like like retention are the obvious ones like like retention and mrr and this kind of stuff but the and mrr and this kind of stuff but the and mrr and this kind of stuff but the problem with those is that they're way problem with those is that they're way problem with those is that they're way too laggy and they're multi-input so in too laggy and they're multi-input so in too laggy and they're multi-input so in other words the reason that you have MRI other words the reason that you have MRI other words the reason that you have MRI this month is many many things what this month is many many things what this month is many many things what happened in sales what happens in happened in sales what happens in happened in sales what happens in marketing how many people stayed how marketing how many people stayed how marketing how many people stayed how many people upgraded how many people many people upgraded how many people many people upgraded how many people downgraded did they like the product

downgraded did they like the product downgraded did they like the product that they like your service like that's that they like your service like that's that they like your service like that's all in that number so on the one hand all in that number so on the one hand all in that number so on the one hand it's the most important one because if it's the most important one because if it's the most important one because if it's not there then you uh starve to it's not there then you uh starve to it's not there then you uh starve to death so on the one hand is the most death so on the one hand is the most death so on the one hand is the most important number and it's not the one important number and it's not the one important number and it's not the one that you can operate their business on that you can operate their business on that you can operate their business on because it's it happens way too late because it's it happens way too late because it's it happens way too late there's too many inputs to it there's too many inputs to it there's too many inputs to it so to me like if you imagine the so to me like if you imagine the so to me like if you imagine the customer moving through their Journey customer moving through their Journey customer moving through their Journey from like oh I found out about you in from like oh I found out about you in from like oh I found out about you in the website and and then again it the website and and then again it the website and and then again it depends on the company obviously maybe depends on the company obviously maybe depends on the company obviously maybe there's a trial Maybe not maybe they're there's a trial Maybe not maybe they're there's a trial Maybe not maybe they're using the product Maybe not maybe using the product Maybe not maybe using the product Maybe not maybe there's some moment where they get value there's some moment where they get value there's some moment where they get value or moment where now now probably the or moment where now now probably the or moment where now now probably the customer will be successful and stay now customer will be successful and stay now customer will be successful and stay now probably that moment that to me is the probably that moment that to me is the probably that moment that to me is the is the one is the one is the one because you know Revenue will come I because you know Revenue will come I because you know Revenue will come I mean if if you if you're looking at your mean if if you if you're looking at your mean if if you if you're looking at your data you'll know Revenue will come if data you'll know Revenue will come if data you'll know Revenue will come if this happens but this happens every day this happens but this happens every day this happens but this happens every day and I can try to do stuff and see this and I can try to do stuff and see this and I can try to do stuff and see this week or even today whether that changes week or even today whether that changes week or even today whether that changes and so when Revenue may or may not and so when Revenue may or may not and so when Revenue may or may not change later I can I can actually change later I can I can actually change later I can I can actually operate on this so as an example early operate on this so as an example early operate on this so as an example early on in Netflix their number was the on in Netflix their number was the on in Netflix their number was the number of people number of people number of people who put three or more DVDs in their who put three or more DVDs in their who put three or more DVDs in their queue in the first day queue in the first day queue in the first day very specific very specific very specific because they found just a correlation because they found just a correlation because they found just a correlation not necessarily causation but just the not necessarily causation but just the not necessarily causation but just the correlation that if you put three or correlation that if you put three or correlation that if you put three or more DVDs then that you were like seven more DVDs then that you were like seven more DVDs then that you were like seven times more likely to become a customer times more likely to become a customer times more likely to become a customer and stay for at least six months like it and stay for at least six months like it and stay for at least six months like it wasn't even that long right so they're wasn't even that long right so they're wasn't even that long right so they're like that's the thing so we got to get like that's the thing so we got to get like that's the thing so we got to get people in and get the thing in the queue

people in and get the thing in the queue people in and get the thing in the queue so they so like all right if that's the so they so like all right if that's the so they so like all right if that's the goal what do you do and it's actually goal what do you do and it's actually goal what do you do and it's actually very easy to think of things well let's very easy to think of things well let's very easy to think of things well let's ask them what genre they like and just ask them what genre they like and just ask them what genre they like and just put stuff in the queue for them or let's put stuff in the queue for them or let's put stuff in the queue for them or let's uh let's take our most popular 10 most uh let's take our most popular 10 most uh let's take our most popular 10 most popular titles and just suggest before popular titles and just suggest before popular titles and just suggest before they get hit next that they have to put they get hit next that they have to put they get hit next that they have to put like you could just kind of make it like you could just kind of make it like you could just kind of make it happen right so the nice thing is it it happen right so the nice thing is it it happen right so the nice thing is it it may it may be smart actually to do that may it may be smart actually to do that may it may be smart actually to do that and it was like it wasn't even gaming and it was like it wasn't even gaming and it was like it wasn't even gaming the system that worked the system that worked the system that worked um now of course over time that should um now of course over time that should um now of course over time that should change and early on it should change all change and early on it should change all change and early on it should change all the time like all right now you're the time like all right now you're the time like all right now you're better at that now the most important better at that now the most important better at that now the most important metric is this other one that's fine metric is this other one that's fine metric is this other one that's fine right because you're just and then later right because you're just and then later right because you're just and then later as time goes on the things more mature as time goes on the things more mature as time goes on the things more mature it probably doesn't change all the time it probably doesn't change all the time it probably doesn't change all the time but even today a WP entry point we're but even today a WP entry point we're but even today a WP entry point we're very sophisticated with metrics we have very sophisticated with metrics we have very sophisticated with metrics we have lots of people lots of product lines lots of people lots of product lines lots of people lots of product lines lots of stuff we talk about all the time lots of stuff we talk about all the time lots of stuff we talk about all the time how like the revenue of this product is how like the revenue of this product is how like the revenue of this product is this laggy multi-input thing it also this laggy multi-input thing it also this laggy multi-input thing it also combats um as as you do grow a bit and combats um as as you do grow a bit and combats um as as you do grow a bit and you have more employees you start you have more employees you start you have more employees you start getting like Engineers are like well we getting like Engineers are like well we getting like Engineers are like well we can't we can't look at Revenue because can't we can't look at Revenue because can't we can't look at Revenue because that's the sales team and you're gonna that's the sales team and you're gonna that's the sales team and you're gonna get this like who owns what crap so get this like who owns what crap so get this like who owns what crap so again the way you slice that off is just again the way you slice that off is just again the way you slice that off is just say Well Mr is clearly the output of all say Well Mr is clearly the output of all say Well Mr is clearly the output of all of us doing a good job so it's none of of us doing a good job so it's none of of us doing a good job so it's none of our primary metric sales team has their our primary metric sales team has their our primary metric sales team has their own stuff they have quotas and whatever own stuff they have quotas and whatever own stuff they have quotas and whatever the hell they got and what do we got the hell they got and what do we got the hell they got and what do we got can't be mrr can't be mrr can't be mrr so so I think finding that um that again so so I think finding that um that again so so I think finding that um that again that moment where you're delivering that moment where you're delivering that moment where you're delivering value to customers that's a great thing value to customers that's a great thing value to customers that's a great thing because it's probably true it's probably because it's probably true it's probably because it's probably true it's probably best it's very customer-centric customer best it's very customer-centric customer best it's very customer-centric customer minded you can literally draw it out and minded you can literally draw it out and minded you can literally draw it out and probably find it you know like like probably find it you know like like probably find it you know like like pictorially

pictorially pictorially um it's easy to explain to the whole um it's easy to explain to the whole um it's easy to explain to the whole team like okay so these these metrics team like okay so these these metrics team like okay so these these metrics are inputs to this not like a perfect are inputs to this not like a perfect are inputs to this not like a perfect formula but just in general like it is formula but just in general like it is formula but just in general like it is true that the more traffic into the true that the more traffic into the true that the more traffic into the website the more we'll eventually have website the more we'll eventually have website the more we'll eventually have this so it is important just not our key this so it is important just not our key this so it is important just not our key metric and the conversion rate here is metric and the conversion rate here is metric and the conversion rate here is important just not our key metric but important just not our key metric but important just not our key metric but yeah it's an input and that's actually yeah it's an input and that's actually yeah it's an input and that's actually another nice thing you can do with that another nice thing you can do with that another nice thing you can do with that one Central some people call it one Central some people call it one Central some people call it Northstar is you can say well what are Northstar is you can say well what are Northstar is you can say well what are those immediate metrics in front that those immediate metrics in front that those immediate metrics in front that again maybe we want to optimize so for again maybe we want to optimize so for again maybe we want to optimize so for example instacart has famously like had example instacart has famously like had example instacart has famously like had just like total cart value as as uh as just like total cart value as as uh as just like total cart value as as uh as their Northstar but then it's very easy their Northstar but then it's very easy their Northstar but then it's very easy again to think of what are the inputs so again to think of what are the inputs so again to think of what are the inputs so it's like number of customers at all it's like number of customers at all it's like number of customers at all average size of cart number of items in average size of cart number of items in average size of cart number of items in the cart those overlap a little it's the cart those overlap a little it's the cart those overlap a little it's okay this is not an equation this is okay this is not an equation this is okay this is not an equation this is just like stuff that generally leads to just like stuff that generally leads to just like stuff that generally leads to the thing we want the thing we want the thing we want and you track it you don't have goals and you track it you don't have goals and you track it you don't have goals for it necessarily you're just looking for it necessarily you're just looking for it necessarily you're just looking at it like this is this is the like a at it like this is this is the like a at it like this is this is the like a dashboard in a car is not goals it's dashboard in a car is not goals it's dashboard in a car is not goals it's just what's going on so in that with just what's going on so in that with just what's going on so in that with that mentality of a dashboard it's a that mentality of a dashboard it's a that mentality of a dashboard it's a dashboard of what's going on and in any dashboard of what's going on and in any dashboard of what's going on and in any moment you could say you know I don't moment you could say you know I don't moment you could say you know I don't love our conversion rate maybe for the love our conversion rate maybe for the love our conversion rate maybe for the next couple of months we'll just focus next couple of months we'll just focus next couple of months we'll just focus on that on that it's easy thing to say on that on that it's easy thing to say on that on that it's easy thing to say and you know or uh and you know or uh and you know or uh uh oh these two things are linked so uh oh these two things are linked so uh oh these two things are linked so we're gonna you know do this one thing we're gonna you know do this one thing we're gonna you know do this one thing and it'll do both of these at the same and it'll do both of these at the same and it'll do both of these at the same time yeah that'll feel good you know so time yeah that'll feel good you know so time yeah that'll feel good you know so it also provides like a way to sort of it also provides like a way to sort of it also provides like a way to sort of decide what should we do what should we decide what should we do what should we decide what should we do what should we do to make it better and if we if the do to make it better and if we if the do to make it better and if we if the question is simply what do we do to make question is simply what do we do to make question is simply what do we do to make Mr go up I mean that is a okay question

Mr go up I mean that is a okay question Mr go up I mean that is a okay question but again it's just like I mean I don't but again it's just like I mean I don't but again it's just like I mean I don't know a million things it's such an know a million things it's such an know a million things it's such an undirected space it's such a huge space undirected space it's such a huge space undirected space it's such a huge space whereas saying like we need the cart we whereas saying like we need the cart we whereas saying like we need the cart we need the average cart size to be bigger need the average cart size to be bigger need the average cart size to be bigger and some of the things that go into that and some of the things that go into that and some of the things that go into that are these which ones do we think we are these which ones do we think we are these which ones do we think we could pick that either we think we can could pick that either we think we can could pick that either we think we can move we got some ideas we're excited move we got some ideas we're excited move we got some ideas we're excited about it even is a reasonable reasonable about it even is a reasonable reasonable about it even is a reasonable reasonable like reason to prioritize something it like reason to prioritize something it like reason to prioritize something it will be fun but it can't only be fun it will be fun but it can't only be fun it will be fun but it can't only be fun it has to be fun but in service of has to be fun but in service of has to be fun but in service of something so here's some some things something so here's some some things something so here's some some things that that you've determined are smart that that you've determined are smart that that you've determined are smart too to do too to do too to do um and I do think that's an underrated um and I do think that's an underrated um and I do think that's an underrated thing too I'll just say the using your thing too I'll just say the using your thing too I'll just say the using your ex you're using excitement as a reason ex you're using excitement as a reason ex you're using excitement as a reason to do something to do something to do something and if it's the only reason that is bad and if it's the only reason that is bad and if it's the only reason that is bad because maybe that's not useful but when because maybe that's not useful but when because maybe that's not useful but when it's a tie you know well there's like it's a tie you know well there's like it's a tie you know well there's like three projects we could do all of them three projects we could do all of them three projects we could do all of them sound pretty good we have no idea which sound pretty good we have no idea which sound pretty good we have no idea which one would work because why would we know one would work because why would we know one would work because why would we know to have the tie go to the thing that to have the tie go to the thing that to have the tie go to the thing that people are excited about is smart to me people are excited about is smart to me people are excited about is smart to me and again we do that even here where and again we do that even here where and again we do that even here where that sounds like how could it's fun be a that sounds like how could it's fun be a that sounds like how could it's fun be a reason at scale but it's exactly what we reason at scale but it's exactly what we reason at scale but it's exactly what we do because what I figure is people will do because what I figure is people will do because what I figure is people will simply work on it harder and care more simply work on it harder and care more simply work on it harder and care more and just want to do it more and that's a and just want to do it more and that's a and just want to do it more and that's a huge Advantage so I mean if one thing is huge Advantage so I mean if one thing is huge Advantage so I mean if one thing is clearly better then do that obviously clearly better then do that obviously clearly better then do that obviously but but usually it's not usually there's but but usually it's not usually there's but but usually it's not usually there's a few and who the hell knows okay well a few and who the hell knows okay well a few and who the hell knows okay well they do the thing that you're like gonna they do the thing that you're like gonna they do the thing that you're like gonna spend a lot of energy and everyone's spend a lot of energy and everyone's spend a lot of energy and everyone's gonna like because it probably gives gonna like because it probably gives gonna like because it probably gives that the best chance at success and it's that the best chance at success and it's that the best chance at success and it's also the most fun and also the most fun and also the most fun and we should allow ourselves to make that we should allow ourselves to make that we should allow ourselves to make that be a reason right be a reason right be a reason right so you have bootstrapped you have raised

so you have bootstrapped you have raised so you have bootstrapped you have raised Angel funding you've raised venture Angel funding you've raised venture Angel funding you've raised venture you've kind of done it all to speak I you've kind of done it all to speak I you've kind of done it all to speak I know folks ask you for advice right a know folks ask you for advice right a know folks ask you for advice right a new founder comes up and says I'm new founder comes up and says I'm new founder comes up and says I'm starting XYZ starting XYZ starting XYZ should I raise funding what do you think should I raise funding what do you think should I raise funding what do you think about that how do you frame that in your about that how do you frame that in your about that how do you frame that in your mind of the maybe the trade-offs mind of the maybe the trade-offs mind of the maybe the trade-offs realizing that it's no longer realizing that it's no longer realizing that it's no longer bootstrapping in Venture that there is bootstrapping in Venture that there is bootstrapping in Venture that there is that there are other tiny seeds or what that there are other tiny seeds or what that there are other tiny seeds or what you know there's this in between now you know there's this in between now you know there's this in between now yeah well for for traditional Venture yeah well for for traditional Venture yeah well for for traditional Venture the answer is the default answer is you the answer is the default answer is you the answer is the default answer is you shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't accept if and then there's like a bunch accept if and then there's like a bunch accept if and then there's like a bunch of things that you know well if all this of things that you know well if all this of things that you know well if all this is true then then yeah that's probably is true then then yeah that's probably is true then then yeah that's probably the right way because like all things the right way because like all things the right way because like all things like all tools there's a time and a like all tools there's a time and a like all tools there's a time and a place where like that's the right tool place where like that's the right tool place where like that's the right tool you know so even at WP engine it was not you know so even at WP engine it was not you know so even at WP engine it was not the right tool at first I did not expect the right tool at first I did not expect the right tool at first I did not expect it to be ever the right tool it to be ever the right tool it to be ever the right tool um but then it turned out like there was um but then it turned out like there was um but then it turned out like there was things like huge and growing Market things like huge and growing Market things like huge and growing Market everything's you know kind of wind at everything's you know kind of wind at everything's you know kind of wind at our back this could really be a billion our back this could really be a billion our back this could really be a billion dollar plus company now it is dollar plus company now it is dollar plus company now it is um and and so on like you could just um and and so on like you could just um and and so on like you could just tick down oh man there's like actually tick down oh man there's like actually tick down oh man there's like actually all the reasons all the all the kind of all the reasons all the all the kind of all the reasons all the all the kind of conditions that BC could make sense conditions that BC could make sense conditions that BC could make sense um actually actually hit it oddly enough um actually actually hit it oddly enough um actually actually hit it oddly enough I mean almost none do so it actually I mean almost none do so it actually I mean almost none do so it actually made sense I think also a big factor for made sense I think also a big factor for made sense I think also a big factor for me personally was that I had me personally was that I had me personally was that I had bootstrapped a few companies and I just bootstrapped a few companies and I just bootstrapped a few companies and I just thought I'm a bootstrapper like it did thought I'm a bootstrapper like it did thought I'm a bootstrapper like it did not occur to me that like I should do not occur to me that like I should do not occur to me that like I should do something else something else something else um um um but I also had this feeling this time of but I also had this feeling this time of but I also had this feeling this time of well geez like the opportunity is there well geez like the opportunity is there well geez like the opportunity is there like it became apparent again two years like it became apparent again two years like it became apparent again two years in to be clear like you know but it can

in to be clear like you know but it can in to be clear like you know but it can be a parent that it really is that big be a parent that it really is that big be a parent that it really is that big of an opportunity of an opportunity of an opportunity and like maybe this time the journey can and like maybe this time the journey can and like maybe this time the journey can be different be different be different and that doesn't mean better or and that doesn't mean better or and that doesn't mean better or something it just means it's just something it just means it's just something it just means it's just different like the constraints are different like the constraints are different like the constraints are different instead of the constraints different instead of the constraints different instead of the constraints being profit the constraint becomes being profit the constraint becomes being profit the constraint becomes growth growth growth the Mandate becomes growth and the Mandate becomes growth and the Mandate becomes growth and constraint of money is less so and so constraint of money is less so and so constraint of money is less so and so forth it's just a different game and so forth it's just a different game and so forth it's just a different game and so like maybe a different Journey this time like maybe a different Journey this time like maybe a different Journey this time would be interesting and fulfilling and would be interesting and fulfilling and would be interesting and fulfilling and so for me it was like that was part of so for me it was like that was part of so for me it was like that was part of it for me but that's just a personal it for me but that's just a personal it for me but that's just a personal thing of course thing of course thing of course um so VC it's like you shouldn't accept um so VC it's like you shouldn't accept um so VC it's like you shouldn't accept if if it really is that sort of a thing if if it really is that sort of a thing if if it really is that sort of a thing um as for the other stuff I mean it's um as for the other stuff I mean it's um as for the other stuff I mean it's just so hard to get the engine turned just so hard to get the engine turned just so hard to get the engine turned over in any company just getting enough over in any company just getting enough over in any company just getting enough people there getting that product Market people there getting that product Market people there getting that product Market fit right fit right fit right so I really do feel like if you haven't so I really do feel like if you haven't so I really do feel like if you haven't quit your day job then it's just quit your day job then it's just quit your day job then it's just it's just too hard for it to succeed and it's just too hard for it to succeed and it's just too hard for it to succeed and so the hope is well but maybe I'll get so the hope is well but maybe I'll get so the hope is well but maybe I'll get lucky and it will anyway and that'll lucky and it will anyway and that'll lucky and it will anyway and that'll quit my day job and of course that's quit my day job and of course that's quit my day job and of course that's true and it's simply practical so I'm true and it's simply practical so I'm true and it's simply practical so I'm not saying that's again I'm not there's not saying that's again I'm not there's not saying that's again I'm not there's no judgment that I did the same thing no judgment that I did the same thing no judgment that I did the same thing right like like just 20 years ago right like like just 20 years ago right like like just 20 years ago um so no judgment of course you got it um so no judgment of course you got it um so no judgment of course you got it you got to do what you got to do I'm you got to do what you got to do I'm you got to do what you got to do I'm just saying that does not give the just saying that does not give the just saying that does not give the company the best chance of success company the best chance of success company the best chance of success that's that's I think it's simply a fact that's that's I think it's simply a fact that's that's I think it's simply a fact so if you can take down a little bit of so if you can take down a little bit of so if you can take down a little bit of money money money and have the time and attention where and have the time and attention where and have the time and attention where this is all you do ever it's clearly this is all you do ever it's clearly this is all you do ever it's clearly going to be there for you know risk for going to be there for you know risk for going to be there for you know risk for the company I mean I don't think you the company I mean I don't think you the company I mean I don't think you argue that argue that argue that um or if you could afford to hire just um or if you could afford to hire just um or if you could afford to hire just one person one person one person I mean the difference between one and I mean the difference between one and I mean the difference between one and two people is a very big difference even two people is a very big difference even two people is a very big difference even if the other person's not a Founder it's

if the other person's not a Founder it's if the other person's not a Founder it's still a really big difference or afford still a really big difference or afford still a really big difference or afford to do something like maybe you're in a to do something like maybe you're in a to do something like maybe you're in a space where design does matter and space where design does matter and space where design does matter and you're not a designer well if it matters you're not a designer well if it matters you're not a designer well if it matters you know so it depends on depends you know so it depends on depends you know so it depends on depends obviously on what you're going to do obviously on what you're going to do obviously on what you're going to do with it but or if you can experiment in with it but or if you can experiment in with it but or if you can experiment in marketing so I do think you should know marketing so I do think you should know marketing so I do think you should know what the money's for so the idea is like what the money's for so the idea is like what the money's for so the idea is like I don't know so I can quit my job it's I don't know so I can quit my job it's I don't know so I can quit my job it's like and and do what like and and do what like and and do what I don't know buy ads like then that's I don't know buy ads like then that's I don't know buy ads like then that's not actually good because that's not a not actually good because that's not a not actually good because that's not a that's not a plan but if it's like the that's not a plan but if it's like the that's not a plan but if it's like the only thing stopping me from I mean only thing stopping me from I mean only thing stopping me from I mean whatever the next phase is getting this whatever the next phase is getting this whatever the next phase is getting this version making this partnership getting version making this partnership getting version making this partnership getting this number of customers is this number of customers is this number of customers is one two and three now you may be wrong one two and three now you may be wrong one two and three now you may be wrong about it like but you but you have a about it like but you but you have a about it like but you but you have a theory and it's like well I talked to theory and it's like well I talked to theory and it's like well I talked to all these people and they said this and all these people and they said this and all these people and they said this and I'm seeing these competitors and they're I'm seeing these competitors and they're I'm seeing these competitors and they're running in this other direction I can running in this other direction I can running in this other direction I can run in this direction and here I look I run in this direction and here I look I run in this direction and here I look I have 10 people saying please do run in have 10 people saying please do run in have 10 people saying please do run in this direction and the only thing that's this direction and the only thing that's this direction and the only thing that's stopping me is something to do with stopping me is something to do with stopping me is something to do with money money money well there you go you just you just well there you go you just you just well there you go you just you just decide you just said why this is a good decide you just said why this is a good decide you just said why this is a good this is good for the business this is good for the business this is good for the business so then it makes sense yeah so then it makes sense yeah so then it makes sense yeah yeah very good yeah very good yeah very good I think I have one one maybe I have two I think I have one one maybe I have two I think I have one one maybe I have two questions to wrap us up one is you start questions to wrap us up one is you start questions to wrap us up one is you start a WP engine a WP engine a WP engine 2010 you raised funding you were the CE 2010 you raised funding you were the CE 2010 you raised funding you were the CE founder and CEO for several years and founder and CEO for several years and founder and CEO for several years and then I remember at a certain point then I remember at a certain point then I remember at a certain point getting an investor update that said getting an investor update that said getting an investor update that said Jason is it wasn't even stepping down Jason is it wasn't even stepping down Jason is it wasn't even stepping down it's like stepping to the side right and it's like stepping to the side right and it's like stepping to the side right and I don't did you become CTO at that point I don't did you become CTO at that point I don't did you become CTO at that point okay and you brought in had with Heather

okay and you brought in had with Heather okay and you brought in had with Heather yeah I'm trying to remember the names yeah I'm trying to remember the names yeah I'm trying to remember the names but um but um but um what was that this like there was no no what was that this like there was no no what was that this like there was no no VC was forcing you out right right and VC was forcing you out right right and VC was forcing you out right right and it was your choice just my understanding it was your choice just my understanding it was your choice just my understanding yeah this was a few years after BC so yeah this was a few years after BC so yeah this was a few years after BC so yeah yeah so it was it was your choice yeah yeah so it was it was your choice yeah yeah so it was it was your choice to do that to step essentially step down to do that to step essentially step down to do that to step essentially step down as CEO of your own company yeah I guess as CEO of your own company yeah I guess as CEO of your own company yeah I guess two questions there two questions there two questions there like what was that decision like and was like what was that decision like and was like what was that decision like and was that hard like after you did it how hard that hard like after you did it how hard that hard like after you did it how hard was that I I interviewed Rand fishkin a was that I I interviewed Rand fishkin a was that I I interviewed Rand fishkin a couple months ago in in Seattle and he couple months ago in in Seattle and he couple months ago in in Seattle and he had his own experience of doing this if had his own experience of doing this if had his own experience of doing this if you read his book lost and founder it you read his book lost and founder it you read his book lost and founder it was very very hard I've never heard you was very very hard I've never heard you was very very hard I've never heard you you know talk about this decision that you know talk about this decision that you know talk about this decision that way but uh I'm I'm curious to get your way but uh I'm I'm curious to get your way but uh I'm I'm curious to get your take yeah he obviously did not enjoy his take yeah he obviously did not enjoy his take yeah he obviously did not enjoy his experience experience experience um whereas I did um whereas I did um whereas I did um which is which is the risk um which is which is the risk um which is which is the risk I mean you're looking at it right I mean you're looking at it right I mean you're looking at it right um they can both they both happen um they can both they both happen um they can both they both happen um um um so first how did I make that decision so so first how did I make that decision so so first how did I make that decision so um um um there's a there's a um there's a there's a um there's a there's a um there's a there's a there's a there's a framework which at this I there's a framework which at this I there's a framework which at this I tweaked and so I it kind of became known tweaked and so I it kind of became known tweaked and so I it kind of became known or at least here as as my framework I or at least here as as my framework I or at least here as as my framework I guess all ideas are inherited and guess all ideas are inherited and guess all ideas are inherited and tweaked probably but okay about how to tweaked probably but okay about how to tweaked probably but okay about how to think about I guess you could say think about I guess you could say think about I guess you could say personal fulfillment or just what's personal fulfillment or just what's personal fulfillment or just what's what's good to do what's good to do what's good to do and the circles are Joy skill and need and the circles are Joy skill and need and the circles are Joy skill and need meaning what the company needs done meaning what the company needs done meaning what the company needs done and my observation there and this was

and my observation there and this was and my observation there and this was you know again this was synthesized from you know again this was synthesized from you know again this was synthesized from other stuff I didn't like invent this other stuff I didn't like invent this other stuff I didn't like invent this from Whole cloth right from Whole cloth right from Whole cloth right um um um the observation was that while this is the observation was that while this is the observation was that while this is uh in a sense obvious uh in a sense obvious uh in a sense obvious um there are these traps that occur when um there are these traps that occur when um there are these traps that occur when you have two of them you have two of them you have two of them so when you have joy and and and and so when you have joy and and and and so when you have joy and and and and Founders are always trapped in them Founders are always trapped in them Founders are always trapped in them because no one tells us what to do so because no one tells us what to do so because no one tells us what to do so why we're here why we're here why we're here when you're in this room because you when you're in this room because you when you're in this room because you don't want anyone telling you what to do don't want anyone telling you what to do don't want anyone telling you what to do that's the deal like let's be honest get that's the deal like let's be honest get that's the deal like let's be honest get rich and no one tells you what to do so rich and no one tells you what to do so rich and no one tells you what to do so you start a company where your customers you start a company where your customers you start a company where your customers tell you what to do your employees do tell you what to do your employees do tell you what to do your employees do whatever they want like God forbid you whatever they want like God forbid you whatever they want like God forbid you have investors they're telling you what have investors they're telling you what have investors they're telling you what to do so oops you you failed but anyway to do so oops you you failed but anyway to do so oops you you failed but anyway anyway okay so so uh so you follow these anyway okay so so uh so you follow these anyway okay so so uh so you follow these traps in like who can tell you otherwise traps in like who can tell you otherwise traps in like who can tell you otherwise is kind of a problem right so the joy is kind of a problem right so the joy is kind of a problem right so the joy skill trap is you love it and you're skill trap is you love it and you're skill trap is you love it and you're good at it so you do it and it feels good at it so you do it and it feels good at it so you do it and it feels good and you have Flo you're going to good and you have Flo you're going to good and you have Flo you're going to flow states which we're all told is good flow states which we're all told is good flow states which we're all told is good and of course it is so hooray and then and of course it is so hooray and then and of course it is so hooray and then you're but you've missed what the you're but you've missed what the you're but you've missed what the company needs done so the classic for me company needs done so the classic for me company needs done so the classic for me uh is the engineering founder who should uh is the engineering founder who should uh is the engineering founder who should be working on sales and marketing be working on sales and marketing be working on sales and marketing whatever and is instead making that next whatever and is instead making that next whatever and is instead making that next new feature that but two people ask for new feature that but two people ask for new feature that but two people ask for it and you're right they did but that's it and you're right they did but that's it and you're right they did but that's not what you should be doing but that's not what you should be doing but that's not what you should be doing but that's your flow stage it's a classic trap of your flow stage it's a classic trap of your flow stage it's a classic trap of that right and who's going to tell you that right and who's going to tell you that right and who's going to tell you otherwise and after all this should be otherwise and after all this should be otherwise and after all this should be fun yeah right again what no it's not fun yeah right again what no it's not fun yeah right again what no it's not it's not fun at all it's not fun at all it's not fun at all um just moments are fun you have little um just moments are fun you have little um just moments are fun you have little peaks of fun and back to not fun that's peaks of fun and back to not fun that's peaks of fun and back to not fun that's how it should be how it should be how it should be um so so

um so so um so so um so that's the that's that trap so um so that's the that's that trap so um so that's the that's that trap so another trap is is uh the company needs another trap is is uh the company needs another trap is is uh the company needs it done and you're good at it so you do it done and you're good at it so you do it done and you're good at it so you do it but no joy but no joy and so that's it but no joy but no joy and so that's it but no joy but no joy and so that's burnout land burnout land burnout land and I can't afford to hire someone to do and I can't afford to hire someone to do and I can't afford to hire someone to do this so like another like one for me was this so like another like one for me was this so like another like one for me was accounting I'm good at that like when I accounting I'm good at that like when I accounting I'm good at that like when I sold smart beer no joke like the the the sold smart beer no joke like the the the sold smart beer no joke like the the the the the firm that bought smart bear I the the firm that bought smart bear I the the firm that bought smart bear I say firm because it was a it was kind of say firm because it was a it was kind of say firm because it was a it was kind of complicated but there's this VC in New complicated but there's this VC in New complicated but there's this VC in New York called um York called um York called um but it's like a late stage uh very like but it's like a late stage uh very like but it's like a late stage uh very like kind of innovative creative type of kind of innovative creative type of kind of innovative creative type of thing called Insight Ventures and thing called Insight Ventures and thing called Insight Ventures and they'll do things like they'll buy lots they'll do things like they'll buy lots they'll do things like they'll buy lots of things and consolidate and sell it of things and consolidate and sell it of things and consolidate and sell it but over a period of like a decade like but over a period of like a decade like but over a period of like a decade like a like a really long strategy they have a like a really long strategy they have a like a really long strategy they have interesting stuff anyway they're the interesting stuff anyway they're the interesting stuff anyway they're the ones that bought the company and then ones that bought the company and then ones that bought the company and then renamed the whole thing smart care and renamed the whole thing smart care and renamed the whole thing smart care and all this weird stuff anyway they said all this weird stuff anyway they said all this weird stuff anyway they said when they bought they bought they've got when they bought they bought they've got when they bought they bought they've got companies all the time they're like this companies all the time they're like this companies all the time they're like this is the cleanest Christmas books we've is the cleanest Christmas books we've is the cleanest Christmas books we've ever seen and I'm like well what else do ever seen and I'm like well what else do ever seen and I'm like well what else do you need they're like nothing like we've you need they're like nothing like we've you need they're like nothing like we've pulled random big you know statements pulled random big you know statements pulled random big you know statements and looked and it like to the penny and and looked and it like to the penny and and looked and it like to the penny and we're like this never happens we this is we're like this never happens we this is we're like this never happens we this is fine we just trust everything must be fine we just trust everything must be fine we just trust everything must be fine because you're crazy to be this fine because you're crazy to be this fine because you're crazy to be this obsessive so that's like I have the obsessive so that's like I have the obsessive so that's like I have the skill to be a good accountant skill to be a good accountant skill to be a good accountant like objectively and the company needs like objectively and the company needs like objectively and the company needs accounting I mean of course accounting I mean of course accounting I mean of course but if you just do that all the time but if you just do that all the time but if you just do that all the time right and so a classic burnout for for right and so a classic burnout for for right and so a classic burnout for for bootstrappers because we can't afford to bootstrappers because we can't afford to bootstrappers because we can't afford to hire enough people to do those things we hire enough people to do those things we hire enough people to do those things we do it anyway and we also this mentality do it anyway and we also this mentality do it anyway and we also this mentality which we think is coming from a well it which we think is coming from a well it which we think is coming from a well it is coming from a good place we think is coming from a good place we think is coming from a good place we think it's good for others on our team which it's good for others on our team which it's good for others on our team which is this is [ __ ] work no one wants to do is this is [ __ ] work no one wants to do is this is [ __ ] work no one wants to do so I'll do it and protect my people so

so I'll do it and protect my people so so I'll do it and protect my people so that they'll stay and want to be here that they'll stay and want to be here that they'll stay and want to be here but what you forgot is that if you asked but what you forgot is that if you asked but what you forgot is that if you asked your people they would not want you your people they would not want you your people they would not want you always doing Scott work that you hate always doing Scott work that you hate always doing Scott work that you hate they don't want you doing that so like they don't want you doing that so like they don't want you doing that so like they don't want you burnt out either so they don't want you burnt out either so they don't want you burnt out either so maybe you could trade off or maybe you maybe you could trade off or maybe you maybe you could trade off or maybe you know maybe we could pitch in and know maybe we could pitch in and know maybe we could pitch in and whatever like there's probably probably whatever like there's probably probably whatever like there's probably probably they don't actually want you to do that they don't actually want you to do that they don't actually want you to do that but you didn't ask anyway so so that's a but you didn't ask anyway so so that's a but you didn't ask anyway so so that's a classic one and then there's the joy and classic one and then there's the joy and classic one and then there's the joy and need I love it and the company needs it need I love it and the company needs it need I love it and the company needs it so what's wrong with that don't have the so what's wrong with that don't have the so what's wrong with that don't have the skill for it not very good at it you skill for it not very good at it you skill for it not very good at it you said the company needed it if we start said the company needed it if we start said the company needed it if we start with that if they if it doesn't need it with that if they if it doesn't need it with that if they if it doesn't need it you shouldn't be doing it okay you just you shouldn't be doing it okay you just you shouldn't be doing it okay you just said it needed to be done but you suck said it needed to be done but you suck said it needed to be done but you suck at it so a classic example here would be at it so a classic example here would be at it so a classic example here would be like um marketing again I'll take the like um marketing again I'll take the like um marketing again I'll take the engineer because that's what I am so engineer because that's what I am so engineer because that's what I am so it's easy for me to pick the examples it's easy for me to pick the examples it's easy for me to pick the examples and so it's like we need to do AdWords and so it's like we need to do AdWords and so it's like we need to do AdWords you're like I can figure out AdWords of you're like I can figure out AdWords of you're like I can figure out AdWords of stupid markers do it I could surely do stupid markers do it I could surely do stupid markers do it I could surely do it you know like I know more math than it you know like I know more math than it you know like I know more math than they do and so and besides if I'm going they do and so and besides if I'm going they do and so and besides if I'm going to hire someone to do it even if it's a to hire someone to do it even if it's a to hire someone to do it even if it's a consultant or this even a part-time if consultant or this even a part-time if consultant or this even a part-time if I'm ever going to pay someone to do it I I'm ever going to pay someone to do it I I'm ever going to pay someone to do it I need to understand it otherwise I won't need to understand it otherwise I won't need to understand it otherwise I won't be able to interview them or manage them be able to interview them or manage them be able to interview them or manage them and hold them accountable because I and hold them accountable because I and hold them accountable because I won't know like and they tell me this won't know like and they tell me this won't know like and they tell me this won't work or this is normal I won't won't work or this is normal I won't won't work or this is normal I won't know because I've never done it so I know because I've never done it so I know because I've never done it so I need to do it is the conclusion so you need to do it is the conclusion so you need to do it is the conclusion so you do AdWords really badly for three months do AdWords really badly for three months do AdWords really badly for three months and now you're an expert you think and and now you're an expert you think and and now you're an expert you think and now what and the company needed it done now what and the company needed it done now what and the company needed it done again under the presumption that it was again under the presumption that it was again under the presumption that it was needed to be done in fact and so that needed to be done in fact and so that needed to be done in fact and so that sucks and then you hire somebody and you sucks and then you hire somebody and you sucks and then you hire somebody and you still don't know how to manage them still don't know how to manage them still don't know how to manage them actually because you're not actually an actually because you're not actually an actually because you're not actually an expert it's a another classic and again expert it's a another classic and again expert it's a another classic and again who's going to tell the founder you you

who's going to tell the founder you you who's going to tell the founder you you actually are bad at marketing actually are bad at marketing actually are bad at marketing yeah you need a co-founder okay then yeah you need a co-founder okay then yeah you need a co-founder okay then like but not excellent like isn't the like but not excellent like isn't the like but not excellent like isn't the point to have Excellence everywhere point to have Excellence everywhere point to have Excellence everywhere isn't that the goal anyway not isn't that the goal anyway not isn't that the goal anyway not mediocrity so mediocrity so mediocrity so so so so um bringing so first of all that I love um bringing so first of all that I love um bringing so first of all that I love this framework and I use it all the time this framework and I use it all the time this framework and I use it all the time I use it for other people I use it for I use it for other people I use it for I use it for other people I use it for myself and the CEO thing which is why I myself and the CEO thing which is why I myself and the CEO thing which is why I went into it in so much detail so for me went into it in so much detail so for me went into it in so much detail so for me it was like all right so it was like all right so it was like all right so what is a CEO so at this time we're like what is a CEO so at this time we're like what is a CEO so at this time we're like maybe 80 people 70 80 people and it's maybe 80 people 70 80 people and it's maybe 80 people 70 80 people and it's still growing fast like clearly we're still growing fast like clearly we're still growing fast like clearly we're going to be hundreds over the next few going to be hundreds over the next few going to be hundreds over the next few years and at that time so it was like years and at that time so it was like years and at that time so it was like okay do I love managing people no it's okay do I love managing people no it's okay do I love managing people no it's one of the things I hate the most one of the things I hate the most one of the things I hate the most actually right now I have no direct actually right now I have no direct actually right now I have no direct reports that's one of the reasons why I reports that's one of the reasons why I reports that's one of the reasons why I have this title now yay HubSpot right it's the same thing yay HubSpot right it's the same thing yay um so no I don't like that and then um so no I don't like that and then um so no I don't like that and then there's board management because at that there's board management because at that there's board management because at that time we had raised money and okay and time we had raised money and okay and time we had raised money and okay and and and and um and we've got to hire and manage a um and we've got to hire and manage a um and we've got to hire and manage a global sales team right not right now we global sales team right not right now we global sales team right not right now we have a few hundred people in sales all have a few hundred people in sales all have a few hundred people in sales all over the place I don't want to do like over the place I don't want to do like over the place I don't want to do like just Joy just straight up Joy I don't just Joy just straight up Joy I don't just Joy just straight up Joy I don't want to want to want to um and uh what about skill well yeah um and uh what about skill well yeah um and uh what about skill well yeah that too actually for a lot of those that too actually for a lot of those that too actually for a lot of those things some things I can do but some things some things I can do but some things some things I can do but some things you know things you know things you know so you start doing all that and it's so you start doing all that and it's so you start doing all that and it's like oh I should be doing at that time like oh I should be doing at that time like oh I should be doing at that time engineering and product I mean that's engineering and product I mean that's engineering and product I mean that's what I love and I'm good at it and the what I love and I'm good at it and the what I love and I'm good at it and the company needs it done obviously and um company needs it done obviously and um company needs it done obviously and um so now I say that like it was just this so now I say that like it was just this so now I say that like it was just this easy thing that took about four months easy thing that took about four months easy thing that took about four months of really difficult struggle okay an

of really difficult struggle okay an of really difficult struggle okay an emotional turmoil emotional turmoil emotional turmoil and there was this moment where I got and there was this moment where I got and there was this moment where I got over it which is useful to repeat over it which is useful to repeat over it which is useful to repeat because I think because I think because I think um because I think it's not just me I um because I think it's not just me I um because I think it's not just me I was at a um I was in this uh this bar was at a um I was in this uh this bar was at a um I was in this uh this bar outside of a restaurant outside of a restaurant outside of a restaurant with um it was it was a person from our with um it was it was a person from our with um it was it was a person from our on our board but this person had also on our board but this person had also on our board but this person had also been a Founder multiple times to take been a Founder multiple times to take been a Founder multiple times to take home companies public and like gone home companies public and like gone home companies public and like gone through everything right like that kind through everything right like that kind through everything right like that kind of person and uh we were just sitting of person and uh we were just sitting of person and uh we were just sitting there and he could tell like I know we there and he could tell like I know we there and he could tell like I know we should hire a CEO I know like everything should hire a CEO I know like everything should hire a CEO I know like everything I just told you like I know that but I'm I just told you like I know that but I'm I just told you like I know that but I'm just like of course I mean who who's just like of course I mean who who's just like of course I mean who who's like you said you did that like it's like you said you did that like it's like you said you did that like it's just it's like not credible right just it's like not credible right just it's like not credible right and uh and he just goes um I know what and uh and he just goes um I know what and uh and he just goes um I know what you're thinking I'm like what he goes you're thinking I'm like what he goes you're thinking I'm like what he goes you're thinking one day like maybe you're thinking one day like maybe you're thinking one day like maybe you'll ring the bell on the NASDAQ and you'll ring the bell on the NASDAQ and you'll ring the bell on the NASDAQ and uh you want the credit I'm like I'm like ah God damn it is it just ego like is ah God damn it is it just ego like is ah God damn it is it just ego like is that it and it's like yeah that it and it's like yeah that it and it's like yeah and I was like okay fair enough and I was like okay fair enough and I was like okay fair enough and he goes but here's the thing you're and he goes but here's the thing you're and he goes but here's the thing you're the founder like you'll always get the the founder like you'll always get the the founder like you'll always get the credit credit credit and for me personally just at that and for me personally just at that and for me personally just at that moment that's what I needed to hear moment that's what I needed to hear moment that's what I needed to hear for what it's worth my light bulb moment for what it's worth my light bulb moment for what it's worth my light bulb moment of like oh yeah I get to keep all the of like oh yeah I get to keep all the of like oh yeah I get to keep all the ego stuff like forever there's nothing wrong with keeping the there's nothing wrong with keeping the ego stuff why shouldn't you for God's ego stuff why shouldn't you for God's ego stuff why shouldn't you for God's sakes this is hard you should at least sakes this is hard you should at least sakes this is hard you should at least get that get that get that but it's like yeah you just get to keep but it's like yeah you just get to keep but it's like yeah you just get to keep that forever it's like oh that forever it's like oh that forever it's like oh oh yeah then why would I want to like oh yeah then why would I want to like oh yeah then why would I want to like run the board meetings that's stupid run the board meetings that's stupid run the board meetings that's stupid wait I cannot run the remedies and get

wait I cannot run the remedies and get wait I cannot run the remedies and get the credit that's what I want to do you the credit that's what I want to do you the credit that's what I want to do you know so for me personally that was my know so for me personally that was my know so for me personally that was my emotional moment that I had to get over emotional moment that I had to get over emotional moment that I had to get over so again easy to say but four months in so again easy to say but four months in so again easy to say but four months in in like that was the thing in like that was the thing in like that was the thing um but it's been fantastic I mean just um but it's been fantastic I mean just um but it's been fantastic I mean just whatever Rand happened like we had the whatever Rand happened like we had the whatever Rand happened like we had the opposite opposite opposite um Heather is the best and uh and she's um Heather is the best and uh and she's um Heather is the best and uh and she's still CEO today still CEO today nine still CEO today still CEO today nine still CEO today still CEO today nine years later years later years later I've said this many times but I've I've said this many times but I've I've said this many times but I've always called her the the late joining always called her the the late joining always called her the the late joining co-founder because I really feel like co-founder because I really feel like co-founder because I really feel like that I mean and anyone who's been here that I mean and anyone who's been here that I mean and anyone who's been here um I'm looking for someone that's here um I'm looking for someone that's here um I'm looking for someone that's here because they would agree but um anyone's because they would agree but um anyone's because they would agree but um anyone's been here for even like five years would been here for even like five years would been here for even like five years would agree like yeah if you told me Heather agree like yeah if you told me Heather agree like yeah if you told me Heather was the co-founder I would I would say was the co-founder I would I would say was the co-founder I would I would say yeah of course like it just makes sense yeah of course like it just makes sense yeah of course like it just makes sense like just culturally in leadership and like just culturally in leadership and like just culturally in leadership and the way she is and everything um it just the way she is and everything um it just the way she is and everything um it just it just is like that and I stole that it just is like that and I stole that it just is like that and I stole that um that little phrase from um um that little phrase from um um that little phrase from um um Reid Hoffman at LinkedIn who also um Reid Hoffman at LinkedIn who also um Reid Hoffman at LinkedIn who also famously brought in a CEO did not work famously brought in a CEO did not work famously brought in a CEO did not work they had to kick that CEO out then they had to kick that CEO out then they had to kick that CEO out then brought in Jeff weiner which was amazing brought in Jeff weiner which was amazing brought in Jeff weiner which was amazing and you know Etc and so and you know Etc and so and you know Etc and so um so I was actually looking at that um so I was actually looking at that um so I was actually looking at that example during during all this and that example during during all this and that example during during all this and that was his phrase that Jeff felt like a was his phrase that Jeff felt like a was his phrase that Jeff felt like a late Jaren co-founder I thought yeah late Jaren co-founder I thought yeah late Jaren co-founder I thought yeah that's that is kind of how it already that's that is kind of how it already that's that is kind of how it already feels like this is probably good so that feels like this is probably good so that feels like this is probably good so that I kind of stole that phrase from him but I kind of stole that phrase from him but I kind of stole that phrase from him but it's totally true it's totally true it's totally true [Music] [Music] [Music] um um um and it was funny so Heather was a c-o-o and it was funny so Heather was a c-o-o and it was funny so Heather was a c-o-o at a public company bizarre voice at a public company bizarre voice at a public company bizarre voice um when we were talking to her and at a um when we were talking to her and at a um when we were talking to her and at a public company you can't you can't make public company you can't you can't make public company you can't you can't make public that you're maybe talking to a

public that you're maybe talking to a public that you're maybe talking to a c-level executive that would that's c-level executive that would that's c-level executive that would that's effectively like insider trading to know effectively like insider trading to know effectively like insider trading to know that so you don't say anything and then that so you don't say anything and then that so you don't say anything and then when it's all done you file the certain when it's all done you file the certain when it's all done you file the certain form and then you can talk about it form and then you can talk about it form and then you can talk about it because when you file the form that's because when you file the form that's because when you file the form that's when the world knows and now you're when the world knows and now you're when the world knows and now you're allowed okay so I wasn't able to tell allowed okay so I wasn't able to tell allowed okay so I wasn't able to tell anyone around Austin and Heather's was anyone around Austin and Heather's was anyone around Austin and Heather's was well known in Austin for a few decades well known in Austin for a few decades well known in Austin for a few decades already for being amazing so anyway already for being amazing so anyway already for being amazing so anyway finally I was able to tell people I finally I was able to tell people I finally I was able to tell people I remember I was at a at an event at remember I was at a at an event at remember I was at a at an event at Capital Factory and I was talking to oh Capital Factory and I was talking to oh Capital Factory and I was talking to oh oh John oh John oh John a second John Price all right so you a second John Price all right so you a second John Price all right so you know what I'm talking about he's he's know what I'm talking about he's he's know what I'm talking about he's he's like he's like this little energetic guy like he's like this little energetic guy like he's like this little energetic guy really smart but create like crazy really smart but create like crazy really smart but create like crazy glasses and with stuff and he's just glasses and with stuff and he's just glasses and with stuff and he's just like you know and uh uh right and uh and like you know and uh uh right and uh and like you know and uh uh right and uh and I said oh oh oh I I can tell you like I said oh oh oh I I can tell you like I said oh oh oh I I can tell you like Heather's joining us as as a CEO you Heather's joining us as as a CEO you Heather's joining us as as a CEO you know Heather right didn't he work with know Heather right didn't he work with know Heather right didn't he work with her or something and he goes Jason and her or something and he goes Jason and her or something and he goes Jason and he grabs my my forearm I look at them he grabs my my forearm I look at them he grabs my my forearm I look at them because they know John you can you can because they know John you can you can because they know John you can you can picture this right he's like and he's picture this right he's like and he's picture this right he's like and he's like listen like listen like listen you don't understand you know Heather's you don't understand you know Heather's you don't understand you know Heather's going to do a great job you know she's going to do a great job you know she's going to do a great job you know she's great I'm like yeah I know like and he great I'm like yeah I know like and he great I'm like yeah I know like and he goes you don't understand Heather is my goes you don't understand Heather is my goes you don't understand Heather is my favorite person and if you ever do favorite person and if you ever do favorite person and if you ever do anything to hurt her like your bro long lost brother yeah like your bro long lost brother yeah like what's happening what's going on like what's happening what's going on like what's happening what's going on here like okay I won't I won't I don't here like okay I won't I won't I don't here like okay I won't I won't I don't even know what that means what would I even know what that means what would I even know what that means what would I do anyway do anyway do anyway um so that's when you know you've hired um so that's when you know you've hired um so that's when you know you've hired a good person I guess a good person I guess a good person I guess that's awesome exactly that's an awesome that's awesome exactly that's an awesome that's awesome exactly that's an awesome story man and if you want to hear more story man and if you want to hear more story man and if you want to hear more about the joy skill and need framework

about the joy skill and need framework about the joy skill and need framework you did a great talk at saster so you you did a great talk at saster so you you did a great talk at saster so you can go to YouTube Type in safter Jason can go to YouTube Type in safter Jason can go to YouTube Type in safter Jason Cohen I think it's the only talk you've Cohen I think it's the only talk you've Cohen I think it's the only talk you've done there because it's number one in done there because it's number one in done there because it's number one in that in the result and I didn't know he that in the result and I didn't know he that in the result and I didn't know he was going to mention it today but I was going to mention it today but I was going to mention it today but I actually watched that talk a few months actually watched that talk a few months actually watched that talk a few months ago and I have a screenshot out I don't ago and I have a screenshot out I don't ago and I have a screenshot out I don't know he has a draft in my book which is know he has a draft in my book which is know he has a draft in my book which is why I mentioned earlier but did you see why I mentioned earlier but did you see why I mentioned earlier but did you see the screenshot I took of it's laid the screenshot I took of it's laid the screenshot I took of it's laid really late in the book under the really late in the book under the really late in the book under the mindset thing but it's of your joy need mindset thing but it's of your joy need mindset thing but it's of your joy need and luck thing because I was talking and luck thing because I was talking and luck thing because I was talking about my own burnout and how I was doing about my own burnout and how I was doing about my own burnout and how I was doing some of the traps you just mentioned I some of the traps you just mentioned I some of the traps you just mentioned I did myself so did myself so did myself so with that ladies and gentlemen Jason with that ladies and gentlemen Jason with that ladies and gentlemen Jason Cohen Cohen Cohen [Applause]