The Pros and Cons of Productized Services with Meryl Johnson – MicroConf On Air

[Music] [Music] and we're live and we're live and we're live welcome to this week's episode of welcome to this week's episode of welcome to this week's episode of microconf on air as always i'm your host microconf on air as always i'm your host microconf on air as always i'm your host rob walling rob walling rob walling every wednesday we live stream for 30 every wednesday we live stream for 30 every wednesday we live stream for 30 minutes and we cover topics related to minutes and we cover topics related to minutes and we cover topics related to startups ambitious startups but not the startups ambitious startups but not the startups ambitious startups but not the venture track ones venture track ones venture track ones startups that we build to get purpose startups that we build to get purpose startups that we build to get purpose freedom and relationships i said those freedom and relationships i said those freedom and relationships i said those out of order today for some reason out of order today for some reason out of order today for some reason but these are not typical silicon valley but these are not typical silicon valley but these are not typical silicon valley startups we um startups we um startups we um you know where fundraising is a goal and you know where fundraising is a goal and you know where fundraising is a goal and just all the things you think about just all the things you think about just all the things you think about uh we really are building businesses for uh we really are building businesses for uh we really are building businesses for ourselves and ourselves and ourselves and maybe not to change the world but to maybe not to change the world but to maybe not to change the world but to change at least our little corner of it change at least our little corner of it change at least our little corner of it so welcome again today i have an amazing so welcome again today i have an amazing so welcome again today i have an amazing guest on guest on guest on today very accomplished entrepreneur today very accomplished entrepreneur today very accomplished entrepreneur named merrill johnston who will join me named merrill johnston who will join me named merrill johnston who will join me in just a second in just a second in just a second i want to kick us off by making a i want to kick us off by making a i want to kick us off by making a special announcement though special announcement though special announcement though and uh this is one of the early times and uh this is one of the early times and uh this is one of the early times you will hear me talk about this you will hear me talk about this you will hear me talk about this microconf remote is our online microconf remote is our online microconf remote is our online only event it's an online digital event only event it's an online digital event only event it's an online digital event it's going to be august it's going to be august it's going to be august 26th and we know that there's a bunch of 26th and we know that there's a bunch of 26th and we know that there's a bunch of virtual events going on right now and we virtual events going on right now and we virtual events going on right now and we have always from day one have always from day one have always from day one wanted microconf remote to be different wanted microconf remote to be different wanted microconf remote to be different than those so than those so than those so more details on how it will be different more details on how it will be different more details on how it will be different will come to you but just trust me that will come to you but just trust me that will come to you but just trust me that it's it's it's it's not going to be that you know the it's not going to be that you know the it's not going to be that you know the typical switching from typical switching from typical switching from speaker in an apartment speaking to a speaker in an apartment speaking to a speaker in an apartment speaking to a webcam to the next one to the frazzled webcam to the next one to the frazzled webcam to the next one to the frazzled host to this and that like we host to this and that like we host to this and that like we producer xander and i have been doing a producer xander and i have been doing a producer xander and i have been doing a ton of thinking about this and i think ton of thinking about this and i think ton of thinking about this and i think we got something really special we got something really special we got something really special cooked up for you so mark your calendar cooked up for you so mark your calendar cooked up for you so mark your calendar april 26th april 26th april 26th and um head over to microconf remote.com

and um head over to microconf remote.com and um head over to microconf remote.com if you want to get registered i'm pretty if you want to get registered i'm pretty if you want to get registered i'm pretty stoked for this hope to see you there stoked for this hope to see you there stoked for this hope to see you there okay let's uh call our guest onto uh okay let's uh call our guest onto uh okay let's uh call our guest onto uh microconf on air microconf on air microconf on air merrill johnston is the founder and ceo merrill johnston is the founder and ceo merrill johnston is the founder and ceo of b ninjas and host of the b of b ninjas and host of the b of b ninjas and host of the b ninjas podcast so b ninja b ninjas is a ninjas podcast so b ninja b ninjas is a ninjas podcast so b ninja b ninjas is a productized service productized service productized service providing bookkeeping services on the providing bookkeeping services on the providing bookkeeping services on the xero accounting platform xero accounting platform xero accounting platform and she is coming to us all the way from and she is coming to us all the way from and she is coming to us all the way from australia welcome meryl how are you australia welcome meryl how are you australia welcome meryl how are you hey ron yeah it's good to be here hey ron yeah it's good to be here hey ron yeah it's good to be here absolutely absolutely absolutely it's great to uh i was meryl and i were it's great to uh i was meryl and i were it's great to uh i was meryl and i were talking offline real quick and this is talking offline real quick and this is talking offline real quick and this is the first time we the first time we the first time we we've run in the same circles i've heard we've run in the same circles i've heard we've run in the same circles i've heard her on tropical mba a number of times her on tropical mba a number of times her on tropical mba a number of times and and and even sticker there's a sticker for b even sticker there's a sticker for b even sticker there's a sticker for b ninjas that is like on my kid's laptop ninjas that is like on my kid's laptop ninjas that is like on my kid's laptop that sherry got at a conference but that sherry got at a conference but that sherry got at a conference but marilyn i had never met so marilyn i had never met so marilyn i had never met so that's one of the amazing things about that's one of the amazing things about that's one of the amazing things about you know running a podcast or a live you know running a podcast or a live you know running a podcast or a live stream is that you're able to stream is that you're able to stream is that you're able to to meet good entrepreneurs like this so to meet good entrepreneurs like this so to meet good entrepreneurs like this so we we we are going to be talking today about the are going to be talking today about the are going to be talking today about the pros and cons of pros and cons of pros and cons of services and you know our service is services and you know our service is services and you know our service is underrated underrated underrated in the microcomp space and especially in in the microcomp space and especially in in the microcomp space and especially in the microsoft community where it's the microsoft community where it's the microsoft community where it's it's more heavily weighted towards it's more heavily weighted towards it's more heavily weighted towards developers and i think that developers and i think that developers and i think that that a lot of developers think as i did that a lot of developers think as i did that a lot of developers think as i did too in the early days too in the early days too in the early days i don't want a human to be involved i don't want a human to be involved i don't want a human to be involved because that's messy because that's messy because that's messy and it's cumbersome and it's expensive and it's cumbersome and it's expensive and it's cumbersome and it's expensive and it requires management it requires and it requires management it requires and it requires management it requires my time and i really just want to write my time and i really just want to write my time and i really just want to write a bunch of code to automate a bunch of a bunch of code to automate a bunch of a bunch of code to automate a bunch of stuff and charge people for that stuff and charge people for that stuff and charge people for that and so that's what we're really going to and so that's what we're really going to and so that's what we're really going to dig into today and dig into today and dig into today and you know i think the conversations um

you know i think the conversations um you know i think the conversations um there's there's there's going to be some twists and turns it's going to be some twists and turns it's going to be some twists and turns it's going to be fun so i think to kind of going to be fun so i think to kind of going to be fun so i think to kind of couch couch couch like just to kick us off merrill is how like just to kick us off merrill is how like just to kick us off merrill is how can founders think about adding services can founders think about adding services can founders think about adding services to an existing offering whether that's to an existing offering whether that's to an existing offering whether that's software whether that's software whether that's software whether that's you know anything else how can how you know anything else how can how you know anything else how can how should founders think about adding should founders think about adding should founders think about adding services services services to help fast track revenue growth to help fast track revenue growth to help fast track revenue growth because as folks probably know because as folks probably know because as folks probably know services tend to you can charge a lot services tend to you can charge a lot services tend to you can charge a lot more more more for a done-for-you service than you can for a done-for-you service than you can for a done-for-you service than you can for just a piece of software for just a piece of software for just a piece of software so i'll let you take it away from there so i'll let you take it away from there so i'll let you take it away from there i think to start answering that question i think to start answering that question i think to start answering that question it's important to think about it's important to think about it's important to think about what are some of the advantages why what are some of the advantages why what are some of the advantages why would you want to offer a service would you want to offer a service would you want to offer a service and i think you've you've covered a and i think you've you've covered a and i think you've you've covered a couple of the ideas there that you can couple of the ideas there that you can couple of the ideas there that you can charge higher prices charge higher prices charge higher prices which are really good for cash flow which are really good for cash flow which are really good for cash flow which is particularly important which is particularly important which is particularly important in the early stages of growing in in the early stages of growing in in the early stages of growing in business where either you're trying to business where either you're trying to business where either you're trying to cover your own wages so you can work cover your own wages so you can work cover your own wages so you can work full-time in that business or you're full-time in that business or you're full-time in that business or you're trying to hire other staff or invest in trying to hire other staff or invest in trying to hire other staff or invest in marketing so marketing so marketing so one of those reasons is around cash flow one of those reasons is around cash flow one of those reasons is around cash flow but i think there's other advantages too but i think there's other advantages too but i think there's other advantages too and when delivering services you're and when delivering services you're and when delivering services you're talking to your customers in detail so talking to your customers in detail so talking to your customers in detail so you're getting a really good you're getting a really good you're getting a really good understanding of what problem understanding of what problem understanding of what problem you're solving for them and you're you're solving for them and you're you're solving for them and you're getting paid to do that you're getting paid to do that you're getting paid to do that you're you're not asking for favors or asking you're not asking for favors or asking you're not asking for favors or asking for people to give you feedback you're for people to give you feedback you're for people to give you feedback you're actually diving in and solving a problem actually diving in and solving a problem actually diving in and solving a problem for someone for someone for someone getting paid to do that so i see though getting paid to do that so i see though getting paid to do that so i see though those as a couple of those as a couple of those as a couple of reasons that there's probably others reasons that there's probably others reasons that there's probably others that we we could explore that we we could explore that we we could explore if we get into the mechanics of how when if we get into the mechanics of how when if we get into the mechanics of how when you're you're you're offering software and as a customer of offering software and as a customer of offering software and as a customer of software products

software products software products the more complex the software is the the more complex the software is the the more complex the software is the harder it is to implement into your harder it is to implement into your harder it is to implement into your business business business if you're a team then there can be a if you're a team then there can be a if you're a team then there can be a change management piece and training change management piece and training change management piece and training and sometimes there's a lot of effort in and sometimes there's a lot of effort in and sometimes there's a lot of effort in actually adopting that software actually adopting that software actually adopting that software so as a business owner myself i know so as a business owner myself i know so as a business owner myself i know that i've paid for implementations of that i've paid for implementations of that i've paid for implementations of software software software just to have a great experience and i've just to have a great experience and i've just to have a great experience and i've been really happy that i've done that been really happy that i've done that been really happy that i've done that so as a customer of these products i so as a customer of these products i so as a customer of these products i know that i'm willing to do that know that i'm willing to do that know that i'm willing to do that if there's there's value it's going to if there's there's value it's going to if there's there's value it's going to help my team help my team help my team so as a sas founder there might be ways so as a sas founder there might be ways so as a sas founder there might be ways that you could help your larger clients that you could help your larger clients that you could help your larger clients implement your software and really implement your software and really implement your software and really understand what problem you're solving understand what problem you're solving understand what problem you're solving with your software product and other with your software product and other with your software product and other additional services that can be added on additional services that can be added on additional services that can be added on to that to that to that and when we're talking about services and when we're talking about services and when we're talking about services i'm not necessarily saying but go and do i'm not necessarily saying but go and do i'm not necessarily saying but go and do consulting in a completely different consulting in a completely different consulting in a completely different field but how can you add something on field but how can you add something on field but how can you add something on that's going to help grow that's going to help grow that's going to help grow your main business yeah it's interesting your main business yeah it's interesting your main business yeah it's interesting i do kind of think of it in terms of i do kind of think of it in terms of i do kind of think of it in terms of maybe two options or two buckets if maybe two options or two buckets if maybe two options or two buckets if if you were to have a sas or software if you were to have a sas or software if you were to have a sas or software offering there's that upfront offering there's that upfront offering there's that upfront implementation implementation implementation which can often be like a flat fee like which can often be like a flat fee like which can often be like a flat fee like we see i think infusionsoft charges two we see i think infusionsoft charges two we see i think infusionsoft charges two thousand dollars for onboarding and some thousand dollars for onboarding and some thousand dollars for onboarding and some other stuff other stuff other stuff uh i'd imagine uh a lot of the like uh i'd imagine uh a lot of the like uh i'd imagine uh a lot of the like salesforce and all these other have salesforce and all these other have salesforce and all these other have these whole consulting these whole consulting these whole consulting wings that you know make tens if not wings that you know make tens if not wings that you know make tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars hundreds of millions of dollars hundreds of millions of dollars so implementation is one thing and i so implementation is one thing and i so implementation is one thing and i think that's super valuable because it think that's super valuable because it think that's super valuable because it not only brings in revenue but it also not only brings in revenue but it also not only brings in revenue but it also means that people get means that people get means that people get set up on your software and don't just set up on your software and don't just set up on your software and don't just bail during a trial bail during a trial bail during a trial right yeah and then the second piece to

right yeah and then the second piece to right yeah and then the second piece to that is the ongoing that is the ongoing that is the ongoing and that's more of what like being and that's more of what like being and that's more of what like being ninjas you're you're an ongoing ninjas you're you're an ongoing ninjas you're you're an ongoing monthly service where every month you're monthly service where every month you're monthly service where every month you're helping founders do you think about it helping founders do you think about it helping founders do you think about it in in in in the same way of kind of there's in the same way of kind of there's in the same way of kind of there's upfront implementation upfront implementation upfront implementation and ongoing i don't know if that's too and ongoing i don't know if that's too and ongoing i don't know if that's too simplistic of an overview i've never simplistic of an overview i've never simplistic of an overview i've never never run a productized service so never run a productized service so never run a productized service so i i think that's another option as well i i think that's another option as well i i think that's another option as well and i think some people call it swats and i think some people call it swats and i think some people call it swats where it's like where it's like where it's like service on top of software and i haven't service on top of software and i haven't service on top of software and i haven't necessarily necessarily necessarily would have been in just in that light would have been in just in that light would have been in just in that light but you could say that that's what we but you could say that that's what we but you could say that that's what we are we are built on the back of are we are built on the back of are we are built on the back of the xero accounting platform and then we the xero accounting platform and then we the xero accounting platform and then we have a service that sits have a service that sits have a service that sits on top of that and i think there's other on top of that and i think there's other on top of that and i think there's other examples of that i know examples of that i know examples of that i know um businesses that do something similar um businesses that do something similar um businesses that do something similar with shopify or with shopify or with shopify or wordpress and so it's a service that's wordpress and so it's a service that's wordpress and so it's a service that's built on top of that software platform built on top of that software platform built on top of that software platform but you might actually develop that but you might actually develop that but you might actually develop that software or run that software as well software or run that software as well software or run that software as well and i think implementations are and i think implementations are and i think implementations are definitely useful for helping your definitely useful for helping your definitely useful for helping your customers have a great experience customers have a great experience customers have a great experience and then if you've got a service built and then if you've got a service built and then if you've got a service built on top there's the added advantage of on top there's the added advantage of on top there's the added advantage of recurring revenue recurring revenue recurring revenue which you might not have if you're only which you might not have if you're only which you might not have if you're only doing implementations doing implementations doing implementations yep that's right and i don't i mean yep that's right and i don't i mean yep that's right and i don't i mean personally i don't think it matters if personally i don't think it matters if personally i don't think it matters if you own the software or not right i mean you own the software or not right i mean you own the software or not right i mean you're built on top of zero but as long you're built on top of zero but as long you're built on top of zero but as long as xero as xero as xero isn't gonna you know there's always isn't gonna you know there's always isn't gonna you know there's always platform risk when you do that but as platform risk when you do that but as platform risk when you do that but as long as they're not gonna long as they're not gonna long as they're not gonna shut out their bookkeeping partners or shut out their bookkeeping partners or shut out their bookkeeping partners or replace them or somehow you know replace them or somehow you know replace them or somehow you know start charging a bunch of money like start charging a bunch of money like start charging a bunch of money like aside from that that small small risk aside from that that small small risk aside from that that small small risk i don't see a huge disadvantage i guess i don't see a huge disadvantage i guess i don't see a huge disadvantage i guess you can't you know you can't build the you can't you know you can't build the you can't you know you can't build the features in the software but then that features in the software but then that features in the software but then that it's not your problem like that's to me it's not your problem like that's to me it's not your problem like that's to me that's an advantage because i've run that's an advantage because i've run that's an advantage because i've run software products and

software products and software products and just hearing all the future requests you just hearing all the future requests you just hearing all the future requests you know and having to manage all that is know and having to manage all that is know and having to manage all that is actually a pain um actually a pain um actually a pain um so i i mean i think ultimately yes it so i i mean i think ultimately yes it so i i mean i think ultimately yes it would be amazing to have would be amazing to have would be amazing to have a software software product that you own a software software product that you own a software software product that you own a sas that you own and have services on a sas that you own and have services on a sas that you own and have services on it but it but it but there's this this there's also the idea there's this this there's also the idea there's this this there's also the idea of stair stepping you know of of maybe of stair stepping you know of of maybe of stair stepping you know of of maybe you don't spend all the time to build you don't spend all the time to build you don't spend all the time to build that you didn't you didn't spend the that you didn't you didn't spend the that you didn't you didn't spend the time to build zero and yet you've built time to build zero and yet you've built time to build zero and yet you've built b ninjas to b ninjas to b ninjas to what i'm assuming is you know quite a what i'm assuming is you know quite a what i'm assuming is you know quite a bit of revenue based on the notoriety bit of revenue based on the notoriety bit of revenue based on the notoriety you have yeah that's that's quite interesting and yeah that's that's quite interesting and i i i i sometimes talk about the back story of i sometimes talk about the back story of i sometimes talk about the back story of being ninjas and having a consulting being ninjas and having a consulting being ninjas and having a consulting business prior to that but what i business prior to that but what i business prior to that but what i often do i don't really mention is that often do i don't really mention is that often do i don't really mention is that for a very short time i was involved in for a very short time i was involved in for a very short time i was involved in a tech a health tech startup a tech a health tech startup a tech a health tech startup and we'd want to uh start up weekend and and we'd want to uh start up weekend and and we'd want to uh start up weekend and go on into an accelerator go on into an accelerator go on into an accelerator and i quickly realized i don't have any and i quickly realized i don't have any and i quickly realized i don't have any experience or network experience or network experience or network in this industry we don't have any in this industry we don't have any in this industry we don't have any capital capital capital and it's going to take a very long time and it's going to take a very long time and it's going to take a very long time for me to be able to replace my for me to be able to replace my for me to be able to replace my income in this business and i'm going to income in this business and i'm going to income in this business and i'm going to have to keep on working have to keep on working have to keep on working a full-time job and that was when i a full-time job and that was when i a full-time job and that was when i realized for me realized for me realized for me that first stair step was how do i that first stair step was how do i that first stair step was how do i replace my income and to me the fastest replace my income and to me the fastest replace my income and to me the fastest way to do that way to do that way to do that was consulting and that didn't take was consulting and that didn't take was consulting and that didn't take long at all and when i was consulting i long at all and when i was consulting i long at all and when i was consulting i was able to work less hours a week so i was able to work less hours a week so i was able to work less hours a week so i could could could work 20 hours 25 hours a week and work 20 hours 25 hours a week and work 20 hours 25 hours a week and replace my full-time replace my full-time replace my full-time wage and then had time to then go and wage and then had time to then go and wage and then had time to then go and build a productized build a productized build a productized service and so that was my path of service and so that was my path of service and so that was my path of thinking well thinking well thinking well maybe one day i'd like to do something

maybe one day i'd like to do something maybe one day i'd like to do something in the tech space in the tech space in the tech space but really i want to create an income but really i want to create an income but really i want to create an income stream first free up my time stream first free up my time stream first free up my time build my entrepreneurial skills build a build my entrepreneurial skills build a build my entrepreneurial skills build a network and an audience network and an audience network and an audience and i've been working on that for five and i've been working on that for five and i've been working on that for five years so far and then in the future that years so far and then in the future that years so far and then in the future that that might be an option for me that might be an option for me that might be an option for me but having tried it for a couple of but having tried it for a couple of but having tried it for a couple of months i realized well this is a very months i realized well this is a very months i realized well this is a very hard hard hard road if i'm not an experienced road if i'm not an experienced road if i'm not an experienced entrepreneur don't have money entrepreneur don't have money entrepreneur don't have money and and don't really have knowledge of and and don't really have knowledge of and and don't really have knowledge of an industry an industry an industry and a network yep i would totally agree and a network yep i would totally agree and a network yep i would totally agree with that and i mean i can with that and i mean i can with that and i mean i can i could probably name five examples off i could probably name five examples off i could probably name five examples off top my head but one that i i reference top my head but one that i i reference top my head but one that i i reference frequently is a frequently is a frequently is a podcast motor which was founded by craig podcast motor which was founded by craig podcast motor which was founded by craig cuo while he was working a day job as cuo while he was working a day job as cuo while he was working a day job as like a sales account rep like a sales account rep like a sales account rep uh for pharmaceuticals or medical uh for pharmaceuticals or medical uh for pharmaceuticals or medical devices so he's he starts podcast motor devices so he's he starts podcast motor devices so he's he starts podcast motor which is podcast editing as a service which is podcast editing as a service which is podcast editing as a service it's monthly fee it's monthly fee it's monthly fee you know whatever it's 500 a month to you know whatever it's 500 a month to you know whatever it's 500 a month to like edit and produce your podcast like edit and produce your podcast like edit and produce your podcast and he built that i believe he talked and he built that i believe he talked and he built that i believe he talked about it on maybe when i interviewed him about it on maybe when i interviewed him about it on maybe when i interviewed him but he built it to like 20 or 30 but he built it to like 20 or 30 but he built it to like 20 or 30 thousand dollars a month thousand dollars a month thousand dollars a month in like not a long time and the margins in like not a long time and the margins in like not a long time and the margins are good you know they're not quite sas are good you know they're not quite sas are good you know they're not quite sas but they're not but they're not but they're not yeah you're nodding it's like i know yeah you're nodding it's like i know yeah you're nodding it's like i know these that's the dirty little ticket of these that's the dirty little ticket of these that's the dirty little ticket of productized services is it seems like productized services is it seems like productized services is it seems like when we think of consulting we think of when we think of consulting we think of when we think of consulting we think of sas i think all right 80 90 sas i think all right 80 90 sas i think all right 80 90 net margins like 30 to 50 percent gross net margins like 30 to 50 percent gross net margins like 30 to 50 percent gross margins at scale margins at scale margins at scale and when i think of services i think of and when i think of services i think of and when i think of services i think of much much less than that but much much less than that but much much less than that but these productized services are ingenious these productized services are ingenious these productized services are ingenious blend blend blend of that and when you do get the sops you of that and when you do get the sops you of that and when you do get the sops you know in place know in place know in place um i know that that there there are um i know that that there there are um i know that that there there are really good really good really good uh margins in there is that something uh margins in there is that something uh margins in there is that something you've found as well you've found as well you've found as well yeah i i feel like productive services

yeah i i feel like productive services yeah i i feel like productive services are a great step from consulting so are a great step from consulting so are a great step from consulting so consulting for me didn't really feel consulting for me didn't really feel consulting for me didn't really feel like a business it was me selling my like a business it was me selling my like a business it was me selling my expertise expertise expertise and then that transition into a and then that transition into a and then that transition into a productized service where you're productized service where you're productized service where you're building something building something building something that is delivered outside of you so that is delivered outside of you so that is delivered outside of you so you're forced to build a team procedures you're forced to build a team procedures you're forced to build a team procedures and building a brand and also a and building a brand and also a and building a brand and also a marketing system so not relying on your marketing system so not relying on your marketing system so not relying on your network to sell it and to learn all of network to sell it and to learn all of network to sell it and to learn all of those those those skills and i felt like that was the next skills and i felt like that was the next skills and i felt like that was the next stair step stair step stair step and also the the margins can be nice it and also the the margins can be nice it and also the the margins can be nice it generates cash flow generates cash flow generates cash flow and i i think you can still work with and i i think you can still work with and i i think you can still work with the end in mind which might be the end in mind which might be the end in mind which might be creating financial freedom it might be creating financial freedom it might be creating financial freedom it might be building software or having a sas building software or having a sas building software or having a sas but you don't necessarily have to to but you don't necessarily have to to but you don't necessarily have to to start with that yeah and start with that yeah and start with that yeah and again craig's a great example again craig's a great example again craig's a great example a great example of using the knowledge a great example of using the knowledge a great example of using the knowledge that he built that he built that he built generating cash flow and then going on generating cash flow and then going on generating cash flow and then going on to solve another problem with software to solve another problem with software to solve another problem with software in that same industry in that same industry in that same industry right to start castos which is podcast right to start castos which is podcast right to start castos which is podcast hosting and then grow that and then hosting and then grow that and then hosting and then grow that and then got funded by tinycity who's part of got funded by tinycity who's part of got funded by tinycity who's part of batch one and batch one and batch one and now you know podcast motor is like the now you know podcast motor is like the now you know podcast motor is like the back end for back end for back end for castos productions which is this you castos productions which is this you castos productions which is this you know he's now the only know he's now the only know he's now the only podcast hosting service that has editing podcast hosting service that has editing podcast hosting service that has editing and production coupled with it which is and production coupled with it which is and production coupled with it which is a real value add for some people and and a real value add for some people and and a real value add for some people and and he would you would he would you would he would you would i wouldn't say you'd never build that i wouldn't say you'd never build that i wouldn't say you'd never build that from scratch but it's just it's really from scratch but it's just it's really from scratch but it's just it's really fortuitous to be able to fortuitous to be able to fortuitous to be able to to combine those and like you said it to combine those and like you said it to combine those and like you said it got him to quitting his job got him to quitting his job got him to quitting his job so much earlier because building a sas so much earlier because building a sas so much earlier because building a sas 10 20 30 a month to pay your you know 8 10 20 30 a month to pay your you know 8 10 20 30 a month to pay your you know 8 000

000 000 a month living expenses or whatever they a month living expenses or whatever they a month living expenses or whatever they are are are it just takes forever right it does i've it just takes forever right it does i've it just takes forever right it does i've lived it myself many of us have so lived it myself many of us have so lived it myself many of us have so very cool so yeah we we um touched very cool so yeah we we um touched very cool so yeah we we um touched earlier on how you know you said if we earlier on how you know you said if we earlier on how you know you said if we get into the how of it like the get into the how of it like the get into the how of it like the implementation of how to implementation of how to implementation of how to like you know get services going uh talk like you know get services going uh talk like you know get services going uh talk talk to me about what you were thinking talk to me about what you were thinking talk to me about what you were thinking about there about there about there well i can look back to how i got well i can look back to how i got well i can look back to how i got with consulting and then how i got going with consulting and then how i got going with consulting and then how i got going with productive services with productive services with productive services and with consulting for me that was just and with consulting for me that was just and with consulting for me that was just talking to business owners and talking to business owners and talking to business owners and understanding i basically go in and try understanding i basically go in and try understanding i basically go in and try to understand what the problem was and to understand what the problem was and to understand what the problem was and then see if i could then see if i could then see if i could create a solution so if you already have create a solution so if you already have create a solution so if you already have software then you're probably already software then you're probably already software then you're probably already talking to customers talking to customers talking to customers and understanding what problems you're and understanding what problems you're and understanding what problems you're solving and there might just be ways solving and there might just be ways solving and there might just be ways that you can go in and say well would that you can go in and say well would that you can go in and say well would you like me to help with this and you like me to help with this and you like me to help with this and kind of see where it goes i'm a believer kind of see where it goes i'm a believer kind of see where it goes i'm a believer in in just trying to get something going in in just trying to get something going in in just trying to get something going move move move move quickly and yeah see where you can move quickly and yeah see where you can move quickly and yeah see where you can add value so i say we'd all start with add value so i say we'd all start with add value so i say we'd all start with conversations and really try to conversations and really try to conversations and really try to understand what yeah what the problem is understand what yeah what the problem is understand what yeah what the problem is and i also don't think necessarily at and i also don't think necessarily at and i also don't think necessarily at the beginning you might not be trying to the beginning you might not be trying to the beginning you might not be trying to make make make a ton of money out of it you'd be trying a ton of money out of it you'd be trying a ton of money out of it you'd be trying to figure out what is the best kind of to figure out what is the best kind of to figure out what is the best kind of service service service learning experimenting and then you learning experimenting and then you learning experimenting and then you might figure out whether it's the might figure out whether it's the might figure out whether it's the implementation whether implementation whether implementation whether it's the service on top of the software it's the service on top of the software it's the service on top of the software that's more of a recurring basis that's more of a recurring basis that's more of a recurring basis might take a bit a little bit of time to might take a bit a little bit of time to might take a bit a little bit of time to figure that out but you iterate and figure that out but you iterate and figure that out but you iterate and learn and learn and learn and and yeah away you go yeah

and yeah away you go yeah and yeah away you go yeah so i'm gonna i'm gonna give an example so i'm gonna i'm gonna give an example so i'm gonna i'm gonna give an example of a company i know who's done just that of a company i know who's done just that of a company i know who's done just that and then i'll ask you for one so i'll and then i'll ask you for one so i'll and then i'll ask you for one so i'll give you a second to think about it give you a second to think about it give you a second to think about it while i talk but while i talk but while i talk but there's a company in in batch one tiny there's a company in in batch one tiny there's a company in in batch one tiny seed called gather seed called gather seed called gather and therefore interior designers and and therefore interior designers and and therefore interior designers and architects they're sas architects they're sas architects they're sas and they were growing well but they and they were growing well but they and they were growing well but they realized that there realized that there realized that there there are only so many of their there are only so many of their there are only so many of their customers and their long customers and their long customers and their long longer sales cycles because it's longer sales cycles because it's longer sales cycles because it's enterprise sales and so enterprise sales and so enterprise sales and so they started thinking of this idea of of they started thinking of this idea of of they started thinking of this idea of of offering service value ad and they offering service value ad and they offering service value ad and they originally wanted to do it purely originally wanted to do it purely originally wanted to do it purely productized and be like hey it's productized and be like hey it's productized and be like hey it's whatever a thousand dollars a month for whatever a thousand dollars a month for whatever a thousand dollars a month for this many hours or this much help this many hours or this much help this many hours or this much help and they found that there was real and they found that there was real and they found that there was real friction there that that everyone was friction there that that everyone was friction there that that everyone was trying to trying to trying to back in to the hourly rate and then back in to the hourly rate and then back in to the hourly rate and then they're like what if i don't use all they're like what if i don't use all they're like what if i don't use all that that that you know it just it wasn't working in you know it just it wasn't working in you know it just it wasn't working in the way they were trying to sell the way they were trying to sell the way they were trying to sell it then they they just made adjustment it then they they just made adjustment it then they they just made adjustment right so to your point of iterating um right so to your point of iterating um right so to your point of iterating um they started saying okay well we will do they started saying okay well we will do they started saying okay well we will do it for an hourly fee but you know they it for an hourly fee but you know they it for an hourly fee but you know they raised the fee up and they raised the fee up and they raised the fee up and they um i don't know put a minimum there they um i don't know put a minimum there they um i don't know put a minimum there they made adjustments right as made adjustments right as made adjustments right as entrepreneurs have to do to almost find entrepreneurs have to do to almost find entrepreneurs have to do to almost find product market fit with just that little product market fit with just that little product market fit with just that little offering offering offering and they started getting more interest and they started getting more interest and they started getting more interest this is this may or may not be something this is this may or may not be something this is this may or may not be something they want to do long term but it is they want to do long term but it is they want to do long term but it is it's like a short-term cash infusion it's like a short-term cash infusion it's like a short-term cash infusion they are learning a ton more about they are learning a ton more about they are learning a ton more about their customers how they work their you their customers how they work their you their customers how they work their you know their processes because they're know their processes because they're know their processes because they're they're having to now pull data into they're having to now pull data into they're having to now pull data into their own software and the way their their own software and the way their their own software and the way their customer would they're helping them do customer would they're helping them do customer would they're helping them do stuff and so it's a stuff and so it's a stuff and so it's a like a phenomenal learning experience like a phenomenal learning experience like a phenomenal learning experience for them um so i'm curious if you have for them um so i'm curious if you have for them um so i'm curious if you have you know a similar you know a similar you know a similar story or stories that you can regale us

story or stories that you can regale us story or stories that you can regale us with with with yes i think brian castle's doing yes i think brian castle's doing yes i think brian castle's doing something similar at the moment he's something similar at the moment he's something similar at the moment he's building a software product building a software product building a software product called process kit but also is doing called process kit but also is doing called process kit but also is doing some paid invitation some paid invitation some paid invitation um so most of their customers i believe um so most of their customers i believe um so most of their customers i believe are going in and setting are going in and setting are going in and setting setting up everything themselves but setting up everything themselves but setting up everything themselves but those that want a bit of extra help those that want a bit of extra help those that want a bit of extra help are paying for that implementation and i are paying for that implementation and i are paying for that implementation and i don't think he's doing tons of them and don't think he's doing tons of them and don't think he's doing tons of them and that's not the business model but it's that's not the business model but it's that's not the business model but it's definitely definitely definitely from what he's described it is great for from what he's described it is great for from what he's described it is great for cash flow but also good for learning in cash flow but also good for learning in cash flow but also good for learning in these early these early these early early stages very cool early stages very cool early stages very cool and have you so did you go from and have you so did you go from and have you so did you go from consulting because consulting because consulting because well i guess my question is this i know well i guess my question is this i know well i guess my question is this i know b ninjas as a productized b ninjas as a productized b ninjas as a productized service do you also add like offer one service do you also add like offer one service do you also add like offer one off consulting off consulting off consulting to within b ninjas are you pretty tight to within b ninjas are you pretty tight to within b ninjas are you pretty tight to like no this is the product we offer to like no this is the product we offer to like no this is the product we offer for this price for this price for this price that's an interesting question because that's an interesting question because that's an interesting question because if you'd asked me a year ago if you'd asked me a year ago if you'd asked me a year ago we were very tight with the product we were very tight with the product we were very tight with the product offering and offering and offering and to me that's one of something you have to me that's one of something you have to me that's one of something you have to be very careful of with a productive to be very careful of with a productive to be very careful of with a productive service service service because it's very tempting when people because it's very tempting when people because it's very tempting when people think they're buying services think they're buying services think they're buying services they always want to add this on or try they always want to add this on or try they always want to add this on or try and add that and if you're trying to and add that and if you're trying to and add that and if you're trying to sell a productive service then in the sell a productive service then in the sell a productive service then in the early stages for me it was early stages for me it was early stages for me it was learning to say no to a lot of things to learning to say no to a lot of things to learning to say no to a lot of things to really define really define really define well what are we offering where's the well what are we offering where's the well what are we offering where's the value who who are the customers that value who who are the customers that value who who are the customers that we're selling this to we're selling this to we're selling this to but it's something that i've been but it's something that i've been but it's something that i've been rethinking now that we're almost five rethinking now that we're almost five rethinking now that we're almost five years in years in years in and we don't want to go down the full

and we don't want to go down the full and we don't want to go down the full custom consulting route custom consulting route custom consulting route but what we've been we looked at well but what we've been we looked at well but what we've been we looked at well bookkeeping the value there is in the bookkeeping the value there is in the bookkeeping the value there is in the data data data the financial data but the value is in the financial data but the value is in the financial data but the value is in using that to make decisions not just using that to make decisions not just using that to make decisions not just sending reports to founders that don't sending reports to founders that don't sending reports to founders that don't look at anything look at anything look at anything so originally the the way that we solved so originally the the way that we solved so originally the the way that we solved the problem the problem the problem of founders not using this information of founders not using this information of founders not using this information to make decisions was through to make decisions was through to make decisions was through creating courses and i like that because creating courses and i like that because creating courses and i like that because it felt like we're creating a product it felt like we're creating a product it felt like we're creating a product scalable scalable scalable and and that definitely helped but there and and that definitely helped but there and and that definitely helped but there were also people at the other end they were also people at the other end they were also people at the other end they just wanted someone to do it for them just wanted someone to do it for them just wanted someone to do it for them don't teach me how to build a cash flow don't teach me how to build a cash flow don't teach me how to build a cash flow forecast or a dashboard forecast or a dashboard forecast or a dashboard can you just do it and so we're can you just do it and so we're can you just do it and so we're exploring that at the moment i do have a exploring that at the moment i do have a exploring that at the moment i do have a higher priced option higher priced option higher priced option it's still i'd say it's in between it's still i'd say it's in between it's still i'd say it's in between consulting and a productized service consulting and a productized service consulting and a productized service it's more custom it's more custom it's more custom there's some custom elements like calls there's some custom elements like calls there's some custom elements like calls where you go through where you go through where you go through and and talk through the numbers the and and talk through the numbers the and and talk through the numbers the story and also build things like cash story and also build things like cash story and also build things like cash show forecasts show forecasts show forecasts which requires a much higher uh which requires a much higher uh which requires a much higher uh technical expertise from the accountants technical expertise from the accountants technical expertise from the accountants that do this but it's still not that do this but it's still not that do this but it's still not consider consulting going into a consider consulting going into a consider consulting going into a business to business to business to understand all the problems and then understand all the problems and then understand all the problems and then coming up with some kind of custom coming up with some kind of custom coming up with some kind of custom solution so solution so solution so it's not that but it's not quite a it's not that but it's not quite a it's not that but it's not quite a productized service either productized service either productized service either sure true and the way that i yeah i was i was just and the way that i yeah i was i was just thinking about thinking about thinking about uh with productized services i think of uh with productized services i think of uh with productized services i think of them as a nice kind of layer in the them as a nice kind of layer in the them as a nice kind of layer in the middle middle middle with a business model and then with

with a business model and then with with a business model and then with their courses their courses their courses which is more scalable that we would which is more scalable that we would which is more scalable that we would want to have a lot of want to have a lot of want to have a lot of a lot more customers buying those that a lot more customers buying those that a lot more customers buying those that then feed into the product type services then feed into the product type services then feed into the product type services and then just a smaller number at the and then just a smaller number at the and then just a smaller number at the top of the consulting clients because top of the consulting clients because top of the consulting clients because not all of our not all of our not all of our our customers are going to need that but our customers are going to need that but our customers are going to need that but i think it's nice to have i think it's nice to have i think it's nice to have more diverse diversified revenue streams more diverse diversified revenue streams more diverse diversified revenue streams but within the one business but within the one business but within the one business right like a funnel it's a funnel within right like a funnel it's a funnel within right like a funnel it's a funnel within your own your own company your own your own company your own your own company or i believe i heard it a product ladder or i believe i heard it a product ladder or i believe i heard it a product ladder at certain points where you buy one and at certain points where you buy one and at certain points where you buy one and you kind of step up to the next you kind of step up to the next you kind of step up to the next um yeah that's interesting so i you know um yeah that's interesting so i you know um yeah that's interesting so i you know as as as let's say that i'm a software let's say that i'm a software let's say that i'm a software entrepreneur i've built a sas app entrepreneur i've built a sas app entrepreneur i've built a sas app on the side it's doing five grand a on the side it's doing five grand a on the side it's doing five grand a month i've done an amazing job because month i've done an amazing job because month i've done an amazing job because even getting there is really hard even getting there is really hard even getting there is really hard and let's say that you know i serve and let's say that you know i serve and let's say that you know i serve um it's a good example you know construction firms like you know construction firms like electrical construction electrical electrical construction electrical electrical construction electrical contractors who are wiring houses or who contractors who are wiring houses or who contractors who are wiring houses or who are putting you know are putting you know are putting you know i mean a niche is the real point but and i mean a niche is the real point but and i mean a niche is the real point but and and i'm finding out that yeah they're and i'm finding out that yeah they're and i'm finding out that yeah they're having trouble getting their estimates having trouble getting their estimates having trouble getting their estimates in or having trouble in or having trouble in or having trouble you know doing some stuff and i start to you know doing some stuff and i start to you know doing some stuff and i start to see a pain point where they're kind of see a pain point where they're kind of see a pain point where they're kind of fumbling every time fumbling every time fumbling every time um how would you um how would you um how would you think about like what's the first step think about like what's the first step think about like what's the first step let's say i've had con let's say i've had con let's say i've had con i've had conversation with customers and i've had conversation with customers and i've had conversation with customers and i know there's a pain point there is the i know there's a pain point there is the i know there's a pain point there is the next step to think about hey let's do next step to think about hey let's do next step to think about hey let's do some one-off some one-off some one-off let's hire someone to do one-off let's hire someone to do one-off let's hire someone to do one-off consulting with them like consulting with them like consulting with them like uh or to start with product ties at the uh or to start with product ties at the uh or to start with product ties at the start like is there a start like is there a start like is there a you know a procession there also do you you know a procession there also do you you know a procession there also do you think the founder should try to do it think the founder should try to do it think the founder should try to do it themselves at first

themselves at first themselves at first or bring in like a contractor or an or bring in like a contractor or an or bring in like a contractor or an employee right away employee right away employee right away to kind of implement that to kind of implement that to kind of implement that yeah that's an interesting question so yeah that's an interesting question so yeah that's an interesting question so if it's if i was building a productized if it's if i was building a productized if it's if i was building a productized service service service then i would not want to and we're a then i would not want to and we're a then i would not want to and we're a couple of years in couple of years in couple of years in or we've been a little while into the or we've been a little while into the or we've been a little while into the process process process then i would want to hire a contractor then i would want to hire a contractor then i would want to hire a contractor to do that straight away to do that straight away to do that straight away and that's something we tried to do at b and that's something we tried to do at b and that's something we tried to do at b ninjas was i wanted to remove myself ninjas was i wanted to remove myself ninjas was i wanted to remove myself from delivery from delivery from delivery as soon as possible but if part of the as soon as possible but if part of the as soon as possible but if part of the reason for this is learning reason for this is learning reason for this is learning which it sounds like it might be if the which it sounds like it might be if the which it sounds like it might be if the core business is sas core business is sas core business is sas then there's actually a lot of benefit then there's actually a lot of benefit then there's actually a lot of benefit in delivering in delivering in delivering that in talking to these customers and that in talking to these customers and that in talking to these customers and and really going deep with them and really going deep with them and really going deep with them and so as the founder i'd probably if it and so as the founder i'd probably if it and so as the founder i'd probably if it was me i'd probably go and do that was me i'd probably go and do that was me i'd probably go and do that myself at the beginning myself at the beginning myself at the beginning just to understand it and i probably just to understand it and i probably just to understand it and i probably wouldn't go in with a productized wouldn't go in with a productized wouldn't go in with a productized service service service or frame it that way at the beginning or frame it that way at the beginning or frame it that way at the beginning unless i thought that it would be easier unless i thought that it would be easier unless i thought that it would be easier to sell if it was to sell if it was to sell if it was here are two options this is the price here are two options this is the price here are two options this is the price there's a deliverable there's a deliverable there's a deliverable sometimes it's easier for customers to sometimes it's easier for customers to sometimes it's easier for customers to buy that then buy that then buy that then let me come in and do consulting and i let me come in and do consulting and i let me come in and do consulting and i don't know what that means or how much don't know what that means or how much don't know what that means or how much it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna cost and and whether they even want to cost and and whether they even want to cost and and whether they even want to do that so i just think about who i was do that so i just think about who i was do that so i just think about who i was looking to what the best way to looking to what the best way to looking to what the best way to communicate value communicate value communicate value to them and i'd probably do it myself in to them and i'd probably do it myself in to them and i'd probably do it myself in the early days the early days the early days yeah it feels like it would the real mvp yeah it feels like it would the real mvp yeah it feels like it would the real mvp would be just that wouldn't it it'd be would be just that wouldn't it it'd be would be just that wouldn't it it'd be having a conversation and saying well i having a conversation and saying well i having a conversation and saying well i can give you can give you can give you five hours this month even though you five hours this month even though you five hours this month even though you really don't want to do it especially a really don't want to do it especially a really don't want to do it especially a sas founder is not going to want to do

sas founder is not going to want to do sas founder is not going to want to do it but yeah it but yeah it but yeah you're doing it for the learning and i you're doing it for the learning and i you're doing it for the learning and i mean maybe in construction mean maybe in construction mean maybe in construction it wouldn't work but there are it wouldn't work but there are it wouldn't work but there are industries where you can charge a pretty industries where you can charge a pretty industries where you can charge a pretty penny for it like let's say you have an penny for it like let's say you have an penny for it like let's say you have an app app app that does like you know i.t security and that does like you know i.t security and that does like you know i.t security and suddenly you're dealing with you know suddenly you're dealing with you know suddenly you're dealing with you know you can charge 150 an hour 200 hours to you can charge 150 an hour 200 hours to you can charge 150 an hour 200 hours to do like do like do like consider you know 200 an hour to do consider you know 200 an hour to do consider you know 200 an hour to do security consulting at that point it security consulting at that point it security consulting at that point it does become a little more worth it even does become a little more worth it even does become a little more worth it even if you don't want to do dollars for if you don't want to do dollars for if you don't want to do dollars for hours hours hours um it's just a little more lucrative to um it's just a little more lucrative to um it's just a little more lucrative to get it done get it done get it done what's your take on you know all things what's your take on you know all things what's your take on you know all things being equal if you have folks doing these services if you have folks doing these services let's say you get later you're 20 30k let's say you get later you're 20 30k let's say you get later you're 20 30k mrr mrr mrr and you have you know two people now and you have you know two people now and you have you know two people now implementing services you know implementing services you know implementing services you know whether it's part-time or full-time whether it's part-time or full-time whether it's part-time or full-time what's your take on like the contract what's your take on like the contract what's your take on like the contract versus versus versus employee handling those for you i'm employee handling those for you i'm employee handling those for you i'm curious how you get curious how you get curious how you get maybe how you structure it and if you maybe how you structure it and if you maybe how you structure it and if you have opinions on it you know at have opinions on it you know at have opinions on it you know at different stages is it different stages is it different stages is it you start slow with contractors you know you start slow with contractors you know you start slow with contractors you know and they're part-time and you and they're part-time and you and they're part-time and you get them up to full time and then you get them up to full time and then you get them up to full time and then you hire them as in the us it's w-2 but it's hire them as in the us it's w-2 but it's hire them as in the us it's w-2 but it's just an employee an official employee or just an employee an official employee or just an employee an official employee or what's what's what's what's the model how do you think about what's the model how do you think about what's the model how do you think about it it it i think or what what i did with binges i think or what what i did with binges i think or what what i did with binges was contractors was contractors was contractors at the beginning and then moved to at the beginning and then moved to at the beginning and then moved to employees i think one of the main employees i think one of the main employees i think one of the main advantages of contractors is that you advantages of contractors is that you advantages of contractors is that you can really control your margins can really control your margins can really control your margins especially if you're paying them per especially if you're paying them per especially if you're paying them per job so if you're writing articles and job so if you're writing articles and job so if you're writing articles and they get paid a fixed they get paid a fixed they get paid a fixed price per article then you're always in price per article then you're always in price per article then you're always in control of your margins and know control of your margins and know control of your margins and know what what you're making per whatever it what what you're making per whatever it what what you're making per whatever it is that you're selling is that you're selling is that you're selling and that's much harder to manage with

and that's much harder to manage with and that's much harder to manage with employees employees employees the reason we move to employees with b the reason we move to employees with b the reason we move to employees with b ninjas ninjas ninjas and having full-time staff was that a and having full-time staff was that a and having full-time staff was that a lot of our contractors had things on the lot of our contractors had things on the lot of our contractors had things on the side so it didn't feel like we were the side so it didn't feel like we were the side so it didn't feel like we were the main priority we were kind of fitted in main priority we were kind of fitted in main priority we were kind of fitted in around that around that around that and we wanted to build a team culture and we wanted to build a team culture and we wanted to build a team culture where we had committed where we had committed where we had committed staff and also we found it hard to build staff and also we found it hard to build staff and also we found it hard to build a leadership team a leadership team a leadership team when people were contractors and had when people were contractors and had when people were contractors and had other things going other things going other things going uh it was fine for individual workers uh it was fine for individual workers uh it was fine for individual workers who were responsible for an output so a who were responsible for an output so a who were responsible for an output so a bookkeeper bookkeeper bookkeeper managing their own workflow worked well managing their own workflow worked well managing their own workflow worked well but when we wanted to put in place but when we wanted to put in place but when we wanted to put in place managers and training and team meetings managers and training and team meetings managers and training and team meetings and everyone had you know and everyone had you know and everyone had you know 10 or 15 people with different schedules 10 or 15 people with different schedules 10 or 15 people with different schedules and part-time and part-time and part-time that became a bit of a nightmare and and that became a bit of a nightmare and and that became a bit of a nightmare and and for us at bootstrap business for us at bootstrap business for us at bootstrap business we did get some small investment later we did get some small investment later we did get some small investment later on but on but on but we were already trying to make that we were already trying to make that we were already trying to make that transition to employees and full-time transition to employees and full-time transition to employees and full-time staff and it took a couple of years staff and it took a couple of years staff and it took a couple of years we didn't have enough money just to we didn't have enough money just to we didn't have enough money just to switch straight from contractors to switch straight from contractors to switch straight from contractors to employees so that was a gradual thing employees so that was a gradual thing employees so that was a gradual thing over a couple of years but a decision we over a couple of years but a decision we over a couple of years but a decision we made to made to made to to help us to scale up the business and to help us to scale up the business and to help us to scale up the business and build that leadership team build that leadership team build that leadership team yeah and i think that's a really good yeah and i think that's a really good yeah and i think that's a really good point people shouldn't note is point people shouldn't note is point people shouldn't note is if you look at if you read any venture if you look at if you read any venture if you look at if you read any venture capitalist or silicon valley investor capitalist or silicon valley investor capitalist or silicon valley investor you'll see things like you'll see things like you'll see things like you need to have an office in the bay you need to have an office in the bay you need to have an office in the bay area you need to have an office at all area you need to have an office at all area you need to have an office at all you need to hire you need to hire you need to hire only w2s never hire contractors to build only w2s never hire contractors to build only w2s never hire contractors to build yourself you know you see these real yourself you know you see these real yourself you know you see these real nevers and always you need if you're not nevers and always you need if you're not nevers and always you need if you're not going to do that if you're not going to going to do that if you're not going to going to do that if you're not going to raise venture funding like step away raise venture funding like step away raise venture funding like step away from that like you're a bootstrapper or

from that like you're a bootstrapper or from that like you're a bootstrapper or maybe you raise a small angel round maybe you raise a small angel round maybe you raise a small angel round whatever it is whatever it is whatever it is it's different mindset and my rule of it's different mindset and my rule of it's different mindset and my rule of thumb is is exactly what you've said thumb is is exactly what you've said thumb is is exactly what you've said is hire contractors early it is a little is hire contractors early it is a little is hire contractors early it is a little bit of a pain bit of a pain bit of a pain deal with the pain because it's way deal with the pain because it's way deal with the pain because it's way cheaper and there's less risk you know cheaper and there's less risk you know cheaper and there's less risk you know and and you can find them and they're and and you can find them and they're and and you can find them and they're part time and yeah it'll be a pain in part time and yeah it'll be a pain in part time and yeah it'll be a pain in the ass but you'll figure it out that's the ass but you'll figure it out that's the ass but you'll figure it out that's what we do we're entrepreneurs we do what we do we're entrepreneurs we do what we do we're entrepreneurs we do hard things hard things hard things that are kind of messy you know and if that are kind of messy you know and if that are kind of messy you know and if you don't want to do that then go go get you don't want to do that then go go get you don't want to do that then go go get a great job because it'll a great job because it'll a great job because it'll probably make more money from that for probably make more money from that for probably make more money from that for the next for the foreseeable future but the next for the foreseeable future but the next for the foreseeable future but then and then you ratchet that up and then and then you ratchet that up and then and then you ratchet that up and i've done this i've done this i've done this i don't know countless times where i i don't know countless times where i i don't know countless times where i hire a bunch of contractors doing hire a bunch of contractors doing hire a bunch of contractors doing different things different things different things and they're part-time and then certain and they're part-time and then certain and they're part-time and then certain ones are just better than others and i ones are just better than others and i ones are just better than others and i want they wind up becoming full-time want they wind up becoming full-time want they wind up becoming full-time magically over time magically over time magically over time and we work really well together and the and we work really well together and the and we work really well together and the other ones kind of drift out and you other ones kind of drift out and you other ones kind of drift out and you almost like almost like almost like craft your own you know employee force craft your own you know employee force craft your own you know employee force like a contract to hire like a contract to hire like a contract to hire uh in a bit and to your point about um uh in a bit and to your point about um uh in a bit and to your point about um leadership team when i'm at 5k a month leadership team when i'm at 5k a month leadership team when i'm at 5k a month and i'm solo i'm not thinking about that and i'm solo i'm not thinking about that and i'm solo i'm not thinking about that but that becomes a real concern but that becomes a real concern but that becomes a real concern when you start to scale and you have 10 when you start to scale and you have 10 when you start to scale and you have 10 20 30 20 30 20 30 people on staff you don't want to the people on staff you don't want to the people on staff you don't want to the point of this is not to point of this is not to point of this is not to to be managing a bunch of people the to be managing a bunch of people the to be managing a bunch of people the point of this is to be an entrepreneur point of this is to be an entrepreneur point of this is to be an entrepreneur and work and work and work right on the business instead of in it right on the business instead of in it right on the business instead of in it so i like uh so i like uh so i like uh i like that you that you have put a i like that you that you have put a i like that you that you have put a management team in place uh management team in place uh management team in place uh where do you remember like the head where do you remember like the head where do you remember like the head count where you decided to to start count where you decided to to start count where you decided to to start getting that going getting that going getting that going i think i had 10 contractors so 10 i think i had 10 contractors so 10 i think i had 10 contractors so 10 contract bookkeepers contract bookkeepers contract bookkeepers if you looked at an organizational chart if you looked at an organizational chart if you looked at an organizational chart my name was in every single box apart my name was in every single box apart my name was in every single box apart from bookkeeping which was

from bookkeeping which was from bookkeeping which was the service and then they all reported the service and then they all reported the service and then they all reported to me to me to me and so that was just a nightmare to try and so that was just a nightmare to try and so that was just a nightmare to try and get anything done and get anything done and get anything done answering questions reviewing work it answering questions reviewing work it answering questions reviewing work it was just terrible was just terrible was just terrible and so that was when we started um first and so that was when we started um first and so that was when we started um first it was a matter for the bookkeeping team it was a matter for the bookkeeping team it was a matter for the bookkeeping team and then i drew out an organizational and then i drew out an organizational and then i drew out an organizational chart and i wanted my name just to be in chart and i wanted my name just to be in chart and i wanted my name just to be in one box one box one box and then it took four years to gradually and then it took four years to gradually and then it took four years to gradually hire different team members to be to hire different team members to be to hire different team members to be to take on tasks but to take on take on tasks but to take on take on tasks but to take on responsibility for responsibility for responsibility for different areas of the business and that different areas of the business and that different areas of the business and that was a very intentional was a very intentional was a very intentional process and and quite painful at times process and and quite painful at times process and and quite painful at times because sometimes you'd find someone because sometimes you'd find someone because sometimes you'd find someone that was great and then it might not that was great and then it might not that was great and then it might not work work work out so it was a slow process but yeah out so it was a slow process but yeah out so it was a slow process but yeah very worthwhile very worthwhile very worthwhile yeah that's fine yeah i've i believe yeah that's fine yeah i've i believe yeah that's fine yeah i've i believe i heard someone say that i say this now i heard someone say that i say this now i heard someone say that i say this now so either i made it up or someone else so either i made it up or someone else so either i made it up or someone else did but it was like did but it was like did but it was like i said you know as as a founder i just i said you know as as a founder i just i said you know as as a founder i just find i'm constantly firing myself from find i'm constantly firing myself from find i'm constantly firing myself from any job i do any job i do any job i do and that's what you should be doing and that's what you should be doing and that's what you should be doing right is it's like when you're a founder right is it's like when you're a founder right is it's like when you're a founder there's one or two of you there's one or two of you there's one or two of you you're doing 20 boxes on an org chart you're doing 20 boxes on an org chart you're doing 20 boxes on an org chart like once like once like once we got acquired by elite pages which was we got acquired by elite pages which was we got acquired by elite pages which was 170 people at the time 170 people at the time 170 people at the time i couldn't believe the specialists you i couldn't believe the specialists you i couldn't believe the specialists you know it's like this one person is know it's like this one person is know it's like this one person is just writing articles for just the blog just writing articles for just the blog just writing articles for just the blog and i was like what and i was like what and i was like what we have like we have one person doing we have like we have one person doing we have like we have one person doing six things you know six things you know six things you know but that's at scale you become extremely but that's at scale you become extremely but that's at scale you become extremely extremely specialized and so extremely specialized and so extremely specialized and so uh but before that you're just you know uh but before that you're just you know uh but before that you're just you know a jack or a jill of all trades and a jack or a jill of all trades and a jack or a jill of all trades and you're doing all the things and i think you're doing all the things and i think you're doing all the things and i think being aware of that and learning to like

being aware of that and learning to like being aware of that and learning to like fire yourself from that is pretty fire yourself from that is pretty fire yourself from that is pretty um it's it's knowledgeable right it um it's it's knowledgeable right it um it's it's knowledgeable right it shows that shows that shows that that you have experience with this if that you have experience with this if that you have experience with this if you decided to hire a leadership team you decided to hire a leadership team you decided to hire a leadership team and not just manage 20 people yourself and not just manage 20 people yourself and not just manage 20 people yourself which i've which i've which i've seen folks do which is you know really seen folks do which is you know really seen folks do which is you know really tough and i find that challenging especially and i find that challenging especially because some of my professional because some of my professional because some of my professional reputation reputation reputation so before i was running b ninjas i so before i was running b ninjas i so before i was running b ninjas i prided myself on being a great prided myself on being a great prided myself on being a great accountant accountant accountant and then we're selling accounting and then we're selling accounting and then we're selling accounting services which had a productive service services which had a productive service services which had a productive service so very different prices to what i would so very different prices to what i would so very different prices to what i would charge as a professional charge as a professional charge as a professional accountant but some of my reputation my accountant but some of my reputation my accountant but some of my reputation my own views about that were tied up in the own views about that were tied up in the own views about that were tied up in the service we were selling so service we were selling so service we were selling so then was trying to deliver the level of then was trying to deliver the level of then was trying to deliver the level of service i would as a service i would as a service i would as a consultant for this cheap uh that we consultant for this cheap uh that we consultant for this cheap uh that we were trying to do were trying to do were trying to do wp curve style pricing at the beginning wp curve style pricing at the beginning wp curve style pricing at the beginning 99 bookkeeping which i 99 bookkeeping which i 99 bookkeeping which i realized did not work but that was a realized did not work but that was a realized did not work but that was a really really really big learning exercise for me in big learning exercise for me in big learning exercise for me in separating myself separating myself separating myself from that and thinking trying to think from that and thinking trying to think from that and thinking trying to think like we're selling a product this is not like we're selling a product this is not like we're selling a product this is not my professional my professional my professional reputation this is a product business reputation this is a product business reputation this is a product business with a separate brand with a separate brand with a separate brand and then allowing different members in and then allowing different members in and then allowing different members in the team to have their own the team to have their own the team to have their own management styles to make their own management styles to make their own management styles to make their own mistakes and just try and mistakes and just try and mistakes and just try and allow that and also put in place things allow that and also put in place things allow that and also put in place things to mitigate risks to mitigate risks to mitigate risks around that for example if someone makes around that for example if someone makes around that for example if someone makes a mistake with a mistake with a mistake with accounts that's different to having accounts that's different to having accounts that's different to having maybe a spelling mistake in you know maybe a spelling mistake in you know maybe a spelling mistake in you know blog posts that we can go and fix blog posts that we can go and fix blog posts that we can go and fix so we need to actually there's good uh so we need to actually there's good uh so we need to actually there's good uh quality controls and things like that quality controls and things like that quality controls and things like that so if people do make mistakes we're

so if people do make mistakes we're so if people do make mistakes we're going to pick up the things that really going to pick up the things that really going to pick up the things that really matter matter matter yep i think that's a good lesson i mean yep i think that's a good lesson i mean yep i think that's a good lesson i mean kind of as we wrap up here like kind of as we wrap up here like kind of as we wrap up here like what you pointed out is and this is what you pointed out is and this is what you pointed out is and this is something i see with developers as well something i see with developers as well something i see with developers as well or anyone who's a subject matter expert or anyone who's a subject matter expert or anyone who's a subject matter expert is the beauty is that you can sell the is the beauty is that you can sell the is the beauty is that you can sell the service i bet as an accountant you service i bet as an accountant you service i bet as an accountant you selling b ninjas was no problem you can selling b ninjas was no problem you can selling b ninjas was no problem you can talk the lingo you know talk the lingo you know talk the lingo you know all the verbage you know the double all the verbage you know the double all the verbage you know the double entry and all the stuff entry and all the stuff entry and all the stuff but the downside to that is you kind of but the downside to that is you kind of but the downside to that is you kind of want to do the work yourself or you want want to do the work yourself or you want want to do the work yourself or you want to be really involved and you want it to be really involved and you want it to be really involved and you want it you know you want to micromanage i mean you know you want to micromanage i mean you know you want to micromanage i mean that's how i was as a developer when i that's how i was as a developer when i that's how i was as a developer when i would hire the first developer on the would hire the first developer on the would hire the first developer on the software software software it's like i should not be in the code it's like i should not be in the code it's like i should not be in the code but oh my gosh what a mess this person but oh my gosh what a mess this person but oh my gosh what a mess this person just created i need to fix it and that's just created i need to fix it and that's just created i need to fix it and that's it's something you have to get over if it's something you have to get over if it's something you have to get over if you want to eat not even to scale a you want to eat not even to scale a you want to eat not even to scale a business to millions but just to scale business to millions but just to scale business to millions but just to scale up past a point where it's just a job up past a point where it's just a job up past a point where it's just a job for you for you for you you know so that's excellent well thank you know so that's excellent well thank you know so that's excellent well thank you so much you so much you so much merrill we are at time today um if folks merrill we are at time today um if folks merrill we are at time today um if folks want to keep up with you obviously want to keep up with you obviously want to keep up with you obviously beanninjas.com beanninjas.com beanninjas.com if they want to see what you're up to if they want to see what you're up to if they want to see what you're up to and of course if they have use and of course if they have use and of course if they have use zero accounting software and want uh zero accounting software and want uh zero accounting software and want uh bookkeeping up with that you're there bookkeeping up with that you're there bookkeeping up with that you're there and then on twitter you are at johnston and then on twitter you are at johnston and then on twitter you are at johnston underscore merrell underscore merrell underscore merrell and we will uh link that up any any and we will uh link that up any any and we will uh link that up any any closing thoughts closing thoughts closing thoughts you want to say bye to the folks yeah you want to say bye to the folks yeah you want to say bye to the folks yeah it's been great chatting with you i've it's been great chatting with you i've it's been great chatting with you i've been involved in the slack been involved in the slack been involved in the slack community and found a cafe for a while community and found a cafe for a while community and found a cafe for a while and enjoy interacting and enjoy interacting and enjoy interacting with people as part of this community i with people as part of this community i with people as part of this community i really like the mindset really like the mindset really like the mindset around building these businesses which around building these businesses which around building these businesses which we love and enjoy

we love and enjoy we love and enjoy running but also it's not you know we're running but also it's not you know we're running but also it's not you know we're trying to trying to trying to not sacrifice things like our health and not sacrifice things like our health and not sacrifice things like our health and family so i love the ethos of the family so i love the ethos of the family so i love the ethos of the community it's great being part of it community it's great being part of it community it's great being part of it awesome thank you so much and if folks awesome thank you so much and if folks awesome thank you so much and if folks want to connect with you you're in want to connect with you you're in want to connect with you you're in microconf connect microconf connect microconf connect as well and there's a tropical mba as well and there's a tropical mba as well and there's a tropical mba interview that i think went live like interview that i think went live like interview that i think went live like maybe two weeks ago as of this airing uh maybe two weeks ago as of this airing uh maybe two weeks ago as of this airing uh called are productive services overrated called are productive services overrated called are productive services overrated right and then you're in there so if right and then you're in there so if right and then you're in there so if they want to dig in further they want to dig in further they want to dig in further you can hear dan and or ian talk to you you can hear dan and or ian talk to you you can hear dan and or ian talk to you for for for for an hour about that so thanks again for an hour about that so thanks again for an hour about that so thanks again merrill thanks for coming on merrill thanks for coming on merrill thanks for coming on thanks a lot thanks a lot thanks a lot [Music] [Music] [Music] you