Hitting Reset on MeetEdgar with Laura Roeder

let's lay the sand let's lay the sand it's it's it's March 1st 2021 this year March 1st 2021 this year March 1st 2021 this year and at 5 PM I have and at 5 PM I have and at 5 PM I have the worst call scheduled of my life the the worst call scheduled of my life the the worst call scheduled of my life the absolute most absolute most absolute most gut-wrenching terrible thing I've ever gut-wrenching terrible thing I've ever gut-wrenching terrible thing I've ever had to do is gonna happen at 5 pm and I had to do is gonna happen at 5 pm and I had to do is gonna happen at 5 pm and I have to wait for it all day so I'm have to wait for it all day so I'm have to wait for it all day so I'm pacing around my house pacing around my pacing around my house pacing around my pacing around my house pacing around my garden all day just waiting for 5 P.M to garden all day just waiting for 5 P.M to garden all day just waiting for 5 P.M to come come come because 5 p.m is when we had the weekly because 5 p.m is when we had the weekly because 5 p.m is when we had the weekly Team all hands for my company meet Edgar Team all hands for my company meet Edgar Team all hands for my company meet Edgar at five because I live in the UK it's us at five because I live in the UK it's us at five because I live in the UK it's us team team team so the weekly All Hands happens at 5 pm the weekly All Hands happens at 5 pm and I haven't been on the call for a and I haven't been on the call for a and I haven't been on the call for a really long time because at this point really long time because at this point really long time because at this point I'd been out of the day-to-day in the I'd been out of the day-to-day in the I'd been out of the day-to-day in the business for a few years so I knew that business for a few years so I knew that business for a few years so I knew that as soon as my face showed up on that as soon as my face showed up on that as soon as my face showed up on that Zoom screen the team was going to know Zoom screen the team was going to know Zoom screen the team was going to know that it was some big news and probably that it was some big news and probably that it was some big news and probably think it was some bad news think it was some bad news think it was some bad news but they probably had no idea how bad but they probably had no idea how bad but they probably had no idea how bad that news was going to be because on that news was going to be because on that news was going to be because on that call that call that call I told I told I told an entire team of people an entire team of people an entire team of people that they were all being let go that they were all being let go that they were all being let go that every single

that every single that every single full-time employee at the entire company full-time employee at the entire company full-time employee at the entire company was being let go was being let go was being let go uh that sucked and uh that sucked and uh that sucked and what was interesting what was interesting what was interesting was the anticipation was so much worse was the anticipation was so much worse was the anticipation was so much worse than doing it was really bad but the than doing it was really bad but the than doing it was really bad but the anticipation was worse and I had been anticipation was worse and I had been anticipation was worse and I had been thinking about how it was probably what thinking about how it was probably what thinking about how it was probably what the business needed the business needed the business needed for years for years for years before I got up the nerve to do it so before I got up the nerve to do it so before I got up the nerve to do it so I'm going to tell you the details of the I'm going to tell you the details of the I'm going to tell you the details of the story but story but story but before I do that I just want you to take before I do that I just want you to take before I do that I just want you to take a moment to think about what this thing a moment to think about what this thing a moment to think about what this thing is for your business what this big or is for your business what this big or is for your business what this big or small but maybe big thing is that you small but maybe big thing is that you small but maybe big thing is that you know you need to do but you've been know you need to do but you've been know you need to do but you've been scared to do it in my case it seemed scared to do it in my case it seemed scared to do it in my case it seemed crazy crazy crazy to burn down a team like this because to burn down a team like this because to burn down a team like this because even though I let go of the whole team even though I let go of the whole team even though I let go of the whole team the business wasn't failing uh the the business wasn't failing uh the the business wasn't failing uh the business was and is a few million an business was and is a few million an business was and is a few million an annual revenue good churn numbers the annual revenue good churn numbers the annual revenue good churn numbers the business was doing well but I made this business was doing well but I made this business was doing well but I made this decision decision decision because I knew this is what the business because I knew this is what the business because I knew this is what the business needed to make it stronger needed to make it stronger needed to make it stronger so so so before we go into the details that before we go into the details that before we go into the details that decision let's back up and talk about decision let's back up and talk about decision let's back up and talk about how I got to that point of that all

how I got to that point of that all how I got to that point of that all hands team meeting where I had to tell hands team meeting where I had to tell hands team meeting where I had to tell everyone that they were all losing their everyone that they were all losing their everyone that they were all losing their jobs jobs jobs I launched meet Edgar in 2014 I launched meet Edgar in 2014 I launched meet Edgar in 2014 bootstrapped self-funded business and we bootstrapped self-funded business and we bootstrapped self-funded business and we had full-time employees much earlier had full-time employees much earlier had full-time employees much earlier than a lot of bootstrapped businesses I than a lot of bootstrapped businesses I than a lot of bootstrapped businesses I had a training business that Edgar kind had a training business that Edgar kind had a training business that Edgar kind of grew out of I already had maybe two of grew out of I already had maybe two of grew out of I already had maybe two or three full-time American W-2 or three full-time American W-2 or three full-time American W-2 employees in that business so they moved employees in that business so they moved employees in that business so they moved over to Edgar and then we added at over to Edgar and then we added at over to Edgar and then we added at the time I really loved the idea of the time I really loved the idea of the time I really loved the idea of working with people who were totally working with people who were totally working with people who were totally devoted devoted devoted to one business instead of having you to one business instead of having you to one business instead of having you know Freelancers where I was just going know Freelancers where I was just going know Freelancers where I was just going to be one of their clients to be one of their clients to be one of their clients also saw a kind of script out there that also saw a kind of script out there that also saw a kind of script out there that said if you want to have a serious said if you want to have a serious said if you want to have a serious respectable startup you need a team respectable startup you need a team respectable startup you need a team um and it's a little bit gauche to ask um and it's a little bit gauche to ask um and it's a little bit gauche to ask someone how much money they make but you someone how much money they make but you someone how much money they make but you can ask them how big their team is you can ask them how big their team is you can ask them how big their team is you know it's this little shortcut that we know it's this little shortcut that we know it's this little shortcut that we have for how how serious how impressive have for how how serious how impressive have for how how serious how impressive is your is your business you know what is your is your business you know what is your is your business you know what size is your team size is your team size is your team and as you are growing a team and as you are growing a team and as you are growing a team each person needs to add more Revenue each person needs to add more Revenue each person needs to add more Revenue than they're paid right that's the only than they're paid right that's the only than they're paid right that's the only way that the math works out if each way that the math works out if each way that the math works out if each person on your team is paid more than

person on your team is paid more than person on your team is paid more than the revenue that they contribute to then the revenue that they contribute to then the revenue that they contribute to then your team will not be then your company your team will not be then your company your team will not be then your company will not be profitable will not be profitable will not be profitable now that's very logical and it's true now that's very logical and it's true now that's very logical and it's true but it's really really hard to figure but it's really really hard to figure but it's really really hard to figure out for any role besides a sales role out for any role besides a sales role out for any role besides a sales role you know like this is all easy and well you know like this is all easy and well you know like this is all easy and well and good if you're like okay this sales and good if you're like okay this sales and good if you're like okay this sales person gets paid 200k and they bring in person gets paid 200k and they bring in person gets paid 200k and they bring in 800k Easy uh where it's really hard to 800k Easy uh where it's really hard to 800k Easy uh where it's really hard to do is for engineers right the bulk of do is for engineers right the bulk of do is for engineers right the bulk of the team of a software company I don't the team of a software company I don't the team of a software company I don't know about you but I've always found it know about you but I've always found it know about you but I've always found it really impossible to attribute Revenue really impossible to attribute Revenue really impossible to attribute Revenue to an engineer and if you try to do it to an engineer and if you try to do it to an engineer and if you try to do it it gets it gets it gets you say okay well maybe if we you know you say okay well maybe if we you know you say okay well maybe if we you know add new features like that'll attract add new features like that'll attract add new features like that'll attract more customers but often it doesn't you more customers but often it doesn't you more customers but often it doesn't you don't actually know you know which don't actually know you know which don't actually know you know which features are making people stay and it features are making people stay and it features are making people stay and it doesn't really matter who built what doesn't really matter who built what doesn't really matter who built what percentage of what feature right it just percentage of what feature right it just percentage of what feature right it just gets really weird if you try to sort of gets really weird if you try to sort of gets really weird if you try to sort of Force an engineering team Force an engineering team Force an engineering team into that box so it's really hard to do into that box so it's really hard to do into that box so it's really hard to do with Engineers uh it's also hard to do with Engineers uh it's also hard to do with Engineers uh it's also hard to do with the rest of the team for a with the rest of the team for a with the rest of the team for a self-serve model which is what we are a self-serve model which is what we are a self-serve model which is what we are a meat Edgar you know we don't have that meat Edgar you know we don't have that meat Edgar you know we don't have that sales team the way that people hear of sales team the way that people hear of sales team the way that people hear of us is usually us is usually us is usually word of mouth right so we absolutely word of mouth right so we absolutely word of mouth right so we absolutely crush it for search results for the term crush it for search results for the term crush it for search results for the term meet Edgar right and that's how most of meet Edgar right and that's how most of meet Edgar right and that's how most of our customers come in they've obviously

our customers come in they've obviously our customers come in they've obviously heard of mead Grove somewhere they heard of mead Grove somewhere they heard of mead Grove somewhere they Google us Google us Google us they buy so how do you attribute that they buy so how do you attribute that they buy so how do you attribute that Revenue to someone on the team obviously Revenue to someone on the team obviously Revenue to someone on the team obviously everyone's doing stuff everyone's doing stuff everyone's doing stuff that all contribute to it but it's that all contribute to it but it's that all contribute to it but it's really hard to pinpoint that to any really hard to pinpoint that to any really hard to pinpoint that to any individual person individual person individual person another element of the story of growing another element of the story of growing another element of the story of growing our team is that we had really fast our team is that we had really fast our team is that we had really fast growth especially for a bootstrapped growth especially for a bootstrapped growth especially for a bootstrapped company so we hit a million in ARR 11 company so we hit a million in ARR 11 company so we hit a million in ARR 11 months after launch and we more than months after launch and we more than months after launch and we more than doubled the next year really fast growth doubled the next year really fast growth doubled the next year really fast growth in the first two years but that growth in the first two years but that growth in the first two years but that growth that growth rate did not continue but we that growth rate did not continue but we that growth rate did not continue but we hired as a high Growth Company nothing hired as a high Growth Company nothing hired as a high Growth Company nothing crazy huge you know by funded startup crazy huge you know by funded startup crazy huge you know by funded startup standards I think the largest our team standards I think the largest our team standards I think the largest our team ever was at one time was maybe 25 people ever was at one time was maybe 25 people ever was at one time was maybe 25 people but when I look back we would bring in but when I look back we would bring in but when I look back we would bring in full-time in-house people for everything full-time in-house people for everything full-time in-house people for everything and I think at the time that was just and I think at the time that was just and I think at the time that was just sort of the script that I thought that I sort of the script that I thought that I sort of the script that I thought that I should follow should follow should follow you know I think of some of the roles we you know I think of some of the roles we you know I think of some of the roles we had we had a full-time marketing data had we had a full-time marketing data had we had a full-time marketing data analyst there was no reason for that to analyst there was no reason for that to analyst there was no reason for that to be a full-time job that was a project be a full-time job that was a project be a full-time job that was a project that needed to be established getting that needed to be established getting that needed to be established getting that data in but once it was we did not that data in but once it was we did not that data in but once it was we did not need someone full-time on the team but need someone full-time on the team but need someone full-time on the team but what happens is you add people for these

what happens is you add people for these what happens is you add people for these roles and then roles and then roles and then you don't want to fire them because that you don't want to fire them because that you don't want to fire them because that sucks and they're smart people and sucks and they're smart people and sucks and they're smart people and they're contributing to the business they're contributing to the business they're contributing to the business right and so you end up what I found is right and so you end up what I found is right and so you end up what I found is you often end up without realizing it you often end up without realizing it you often end up without realizing it creating a lot of busy work and there creating a lot of busy work and there creating a lot of busy work and there was a lot of busy work that was was a lot of busy work that was was a lot of busy work that was happening in the business and it would happening in the business and it would happening in the business and it would just accrue over the years you know our just accrue over the years you know our just accrue over the years you know our customer service team would do office customer service team would do office customer service team would do office hours and Q a calls and educational hours and Q a calls and educational hours and Q a calls and educational webinars and we can never tie it to turn webinars and we can never tie it to turn webinars and we can never tie it to turn you know we would try to say okay or the you know we would try to say okay or the you know we would try to say okay or the people who are attending this stuff is people who are attending this stuff is people who are attending this stuff is it lowering their turn rate the answer it lowering their turn rate the answer it lowering their turn rate the answer was no was no was no um but it was something to do that um but it was something to do that um but it was something to do that seemed like it would add value to the seemed like it would add value to the seemed like it would add value to the business and people had time to do it so business and people had time to do it so business and people had time to do it so it was done it was done it was done so we ended up in this place where we so we ended up in this place where we so we ended up in this place where we had had had a kind of larger robust team but I was a kind of larger robust team but I was a kind of larger robust team but I was having a really hard time tying having a really hard time tying having a really hard time tying the people on the team to Growing the the people on the team to Growing the the people on the team to Growing the revenue of the business revenue of the business revenue of the business and here's where it really wasn't and here's where it really wasn't and here's where it really wasn't working out the revenue of the business working out the revenue of the business working out the revenue of the business was not growing after a certain point we was not growing after a certain point we was not growing after a certain point we reached this sort of reached this sort of reached this sort of balance stasis point where the MRI was balance stasis point where the MRI was balance stasis point where the MRI was flat where we were bringing in flat where we were bringing in flat where we were bringing in new Revenue every month obviously new Revenue every month obviously new Revenue every month obviously through churn we're losing Revenue every through churn we're losing Revenue every through churn we're losing Revenue every month and we weren't trying to do that

month and we weren't trying to do that month and we weren't trying to do that we were trying to grow the business but we were trying to grow the business but we were trying to grow the business but we weren't getting those results we weren't getting those results we weren't getting those results so in 2020 so in 2020 so in 2020 we made a decision to say okay we're we made a decision to say okay we're we made a decision to say okay we're gonna spend we're going to reinvest more gonna spend we're going to reinvest more gonna spend we're going to reinvest more because we'd always had a healthy profit because we'd always had a healthy profit because we'd always had a healthy profit margin in the business margin in the business margin in the business so we said okay we're going to try so we said okay we're going to try so we said okay we're going to try something different you know we haven't something different you know we haven't something different you know we haven't been getting the growth we've been been getting the growth we've been been getting the growth we've been looking for we're going to try investing looking for we're going to try investing looking for we're going to try investing a lot more money into the business so a lot more money into the business so a lot more money into the business so after I've always taken after I've always taken after I've always taken owner pay but after my pay and owner pay but after my pay and owner pay but after my pay and everyone's paid we're going to take the everyone's paid we're going to take the everyone's paid we're going to take the profit margin down to zero for 2020. so profit margin down to zero for 2020. so profit margin down to zero for 2020. so that means we reinvested hundreds of that means we reinvested hundreds of that means we reinvested hundreds of thousands more than we had previously in thousands more than we had previously in thousands more than we had previously in 2020 we also got PPP money that year 2020 we also got PPP money that year 2020 we also got PPP money that year which was another few hundred thousand which was another few hundred thousand which was another few hundred thousand um we use this to um we use this to um we use this to put more resources on our engineering put more resources on our engineering put more resources on our engineering team we added a big new feature that we team we added a big new feature that we team we added a big new feature that we didn't have which was Pinterest we're a didn't have which was Pinterest we're a didn't have which was Pinterest we're a social media scheduling tool so that was social media scheduling tool so that was social media scheduling tool so that was a big social network that we didn't have a big social network that we didn't have a big social network that we didn't have before and then we did a lot of before and then we did a lot of before and then we did a lot of marketing support around that Pinterest marketing support around that Pinterest marketing support around that Pinterest launch launch launch at the end of 2020 at the end of 2020 at the end of 2020 our growth was still flat all of that our growth was still flat all of that our growth was still flat all of that work we've done all of those resources work we've done all of those resources work we've done all of those resources we'd invested had not been successful we'd invested had not been successful we'd invested had not been successful actually our MRI was like a tiny bit actually our MRI was like a tiny bit actually our MRI was like a tiny bit lower at the end of 2020 than when we lower at the end of 2020 than when we lower at the end of 2020 than when we started some months we'd gone up and started some months we'd gone up and started some months we'd gone up and then other months we'd gone down and it then other months we'd gone down and it then other months we'd gone down and it got canceled out got canceled out got canceled out so after a few years of having this flat so after a few years of having this flat so after a few years of having this flat growth after you know trying some new growth after you know trying some new growth after you know trying some new things in 2020

things in 2020 things in 2020 at the beginning of 2021 I was just at the beginning of 2021 I was just at the beginning of 2021 I was just ready for a really hard reset on the ready for a really hard reset on the ready for a really hard reset on the business I'm like something about this business I'm like something about this business I'm like something about this business is not business is not business is not is not making sense and I knew something is not making sense and I knew something is not making sense and I knew something I had as I referenced earlier as I had as I referenced earlier as I had as I referenced earlier as something I'd thought about for years something I'd thought about for years something I'd thought about for years was that we had this team of people and was that we had this team of people and was that we had this team of people and I would read business books and it would I would read business books and it would I would read business books and it would talk about you know looking at the ratio talk about you know looking at the ratio talk about you know looking at the ratio of your employee expenses versus the of your employee expenses versus the of your employee expenses versus the revenue you're bringing in and when I revenue you're bringing in and when I revenue you're bringing in and when I would try to do these ratios they just would try to do these ratios they just would try to do these ratios they just wouldn't work out for our team wouldn't work out for our team wouldn't work out for our team so I thought okay what if instead of so I thought okay what if instead of so I thought okay what if instead of trying to grow the business trying to grow the business trying to grow the business what if we looked at the business and what if we looked at the business and what if we looked at the business and said what sort of resources and team said what sort of resources and team said what sort of resources and team does it take does it take does it take for the business to be just flat as we for the business to be just flat as we for the business to be just flat as we have been right and like I mentioned a have been right and like I mentioned a have been right and like I mentioned a few million in annual revenue so not a few million in annual revenue so not a few million in annual revenue so not a failing business by any means but not a failing business by any means but not a failing business by any means but not a growing business so if we say okay we're growing business so if we say okay we're growing business so if we say okay we're not we're not going to struggle to grow not we're not going to struggle to grow not we're not going to struggle to grow we're just going to be okay with the we're just going to be okay with the we're just going to be okay with the state we're in what sort of team would state we're in what sort of team would state we're in what sort of team would it take to keep that stable state is the it take to keep that stable state is the it take to keep that stable state is the team that we have if we're going to be team that we have if we're going to be team that we have if we're going to be stable you know we can change our mind stable you know we can change our mind stable you know we can change our mind and try some other strategies in the and try some other strategies in the and try some other strategies in the future but for now if we're going to be future but for now if we're going to be future but for now if we're going to be stable do we have the right team stable do we have the right team stable do we have the right team is this a match right is this team the is this a match right is this team the is this a match right is this team the right match for the stable right match for the stable right match for the stable growth business

growth business growth business so so so let's look at where the team was in uh let's look at where the team was in uh let's look at where the team was in uh March 2021 earlier this year March 2021 earlier this year March 2021 earlier this year so on the product team we had a product so on the product team we had a product so on the product team we had a product owner who's also a designer we had three owner who's also a designer we had three owner who's also a designer we had three full-time developers and one part-time full-time developers and one part-time full-time developers and one part-time developer developer developer one part-time QA on our customer service one part-time QA on our customer service one part-time QA on our customer service team we had two full-time people team we had two full-time people team we had two full-time people one person who split their time between one person who split their time between one person who split their time between doing customer service and QA so you get doing customer service and QA so you get doing customer service and QA so you get that half and a half on the marketing that half and a half on the marketing that half and a half on the marketing team we had a full-time marketing team we had a full-time marketing team we had a full-time marketing manager and then we would bring in manager and then we would bring in manager and then we would bring in various various various um writers and designers or other um writers and designers or other um writers and designers or other Freelancers that we needed for our Freelancers that we needed for our Freelancers that we needed for our marketing activities marketing activities marketing activities and then on the operations team and then on the operations team and then on the operations team we had a president running the company we had a president running the company we had a president running the company as I referenced I hadn't been running as I referenced I hadn't been running as I referenced I hadn't been running the day-to-day of the company for a the day-to-day of the company for a the day-to-day of the company for a while we had a kind of HR Ops kind of while we had a kind of HR Ops kind of while we had a kind of HR Ops kind of assistant role and then we had a assistant role and then we had a assistant role and then we had a full-time in-house Finance role who full-time in-house Finance role who full-time in-house Finance role who would do all of our bookkeeping daily would do all of our bookkeeping daily would do all of our bookkeeping daily reconciliation also Financial reconciliation also Financial reconciliation also Financial forecasting helping with taxes anything forecasting helping with taxes anything forecasting helping with taxes anything around Finance around Finance around Finance so I'm like okay if we're not trying to so I'm like okay if we're not trying to so I'm like okay if we're not trying to grow If all we're trying to do is stay grow If all we're trying to do is stay grow If all we're trying to do is stay stable who do we need on this team and stable who do we need on this team and stable who do we need on this team and that made me think about that made me think about that made me think about how value is created and software how value is created and software how value is created and software so so so the amazing thing about the business the amazing thing about the business the amazing thing about the business model of software is that what people model of software is that what people model of software is that what people are paying for is the software right are paying for is the software right are paying for is the software right that that's what they're paying for

that that's what they're paying for that that's what they're paying for they're not paying for the team they're they're not paying for the team they're they're not paying for the team they're paying for access to meet Edgar paying for access to meet Edgar paying for access to meet Edgar and the software is delivered and the software is delivered and the software is delivered without a team I mean a team obviously without a team I mean a team obviously without a team I mean a team obviously had to build it obviously there have to had to build it obviously there have to had to build it obviously there have to be humans that Geo maintenance and Bug be humans that Geo maintenance and Bug be humans that Geo maintenance and Bug fixing and things like that but for you fixing and things like that but for you fixing and things like that but for you to buy and use meet Edgar it's a SAS to buy and use meet Edgar it's a SAS to buy and use meet Edgar it's a SAS right no human there's there's nothing right no human there's there's nothing right no human there's there's nothing manual in that process which I think is manual in that process which I think is manual in that process which I think is how most of our businesses in this room how most of our businesses in this room how most of our businesses in this room are obviously you can do are obviously you can do are obviously you can do stuff where you're doing manual work for stuff where you're doing manual work for stuff where you're doing manual work for people but I think most of us have people but I think most of us have people but I think most of us have self-serve SAS businesses self-serve SAS businesses self-serve SAS businesses someone buys your software online they someone buys your software online they someone buys your software online they set it up themselves they use it set it up themselves they use it set it up themselves they use it themselves a human does not need to do themselves a human does not need to do themselves a human does not need to do anything unless something goes wrong anything unless something goes wrong anything unless something goes wrong right right right so so so the value that's being exchanged for the the value that's being exchanged for the the value that's being exchanged for the money money money humans support that but the bulk of it humans support that but the bulk of it humans support that but the bulk of it is really not happening from humans is really not happening from humans is really not happening from humans which is why SAS is such a cool business which is why SAS is such a cool business which is why SAS is such a cool business model and which is why a team can be so model and which is why a team can be so model and which is why a team can be so lean at a SAS company because it's not lean at a SAS company because it's not lean at a SAS company because it's not an agency right humans aren't delivering an agency right humans aren't delivering an agency right humans aren't delivering it they're not paying for people they're it they're not paying for people they're it they're not paying for people they're paying for software paying for software paying for software so if we're just oh yeah and so this is so if we're just oh yeah and so this is so if we're just oh yeah and so this is the before numbers of 2020.

the before numbers of 2020. the before numbers of 2020. so the whole team together I added up so the whole team together I added up so the whole team together I added up the hours the whole team was doing the hours the whole team was doing the hours the whole team was doing 1840 hours a month 1840 hours a month 1840 hours a month in 2020 my owner pay was 10 but then our in 2020 my owner pay was 10 but then our in 2020 my owner pay was 10 but then our profit margin zero percent zero percent profit margin zero percent zero percent profit margin zero percent zero percent growth who who don't we need just to maintain well we don't we need just to maintain well we don't we need just to maintain well we don't really need a person adding don't really need a person adding don't really need a person adding devoted to product because to just devoted to product because to just devoted to product because to just maintain we don't need to do maintain we don't need to do maintain we don't need to do really any feature development you know really any feature development you know really any feature development you know it's an established mature software we it's an established mature software we it's an established mature software we have all of our core functionality have all of our core functionality have all of our core functionality don't need that don't need that don't need that development team we need some sort of development team we need some sort of development team we need some sort of developer right maintenance bug fixing developer right maintenance bug fixing developer right maintenance bug fixing things like this things like this things like this so I think we could get away with one so I think we could get away with one so I think we could get away with one part-time developer probably part-time developer probably part-time developer probably don't need QA they can just do their own don't need QA they can just do their own don't need QA they can just do their own QA if we're just kind of maintaining QA if we're just kind of maintaining QA if we're just kind of maintaining right customer service right customer service right customer service when I looked at our ticket volume when I looked at our ticket volume when I looked at our ticket volume I saw that our customer service capacity I saw that our customer service capacity I saw that our customer service capacity was way way larger than what we needed was way way larger than what we needed was way way larger than what we needed again we're a self-serve business our again we're a self-serve business our again we're a self-serve business our pricing is 19 and 49 a month and we pricing is 19 and 49 a month and we pricing is 19 and 49 a month and we don't do any custom anything any custom don't do any custom anything any custom don't do any custom anything any custom onboarding it's easy to use people are onboarding it's easy to use people are onboarding it's easy to use people are just answering questions via email so just answering questions via email so just answering questions via email so one part-time customer service rep if we one part-time customer service rep if we one part-time customer service rep if we stop doing all this extra stuff that we stop doing all this extra stuff that we stop doing all this extra stuff that we can't attribute to lowering turn anyway can't attribute to lowering turn anyway can't attribute to lowering turn anyway if they're just answering emails

if they're just answering emails if they're just answering emails definitely just need one part-time definitely just need one part-time definitely just need one part-time person person person we don't need someone to manage the we don't need someone to manage the we don't need someone to manage the marketing uh I think to keep in that marketing uh I think to keep in that marketing uh I think to keep in that static State we need to keep kind of static State we need to keep kind of static State we need to keep kind of maintaining the content marketing that maintaining the content marketing that maintaining the content marketing that we do which for us is like writing or we do which for us is like writing or we do which for us is like writing or updating blog posts sending out a updating blog posts sending out a updating blog posts sending out a newsletter kind of some you know we use newsletter kind of some you know we use newsletter kind of some you know we use meet Edgar for our own social media meet Edgar for our own social media meet Edgar for our own social media marketing of course and that handles marketing of course and that handles marketing of course and that handles that that that um but we'll need some kind of um but we'll need some kind of um but we'll need some kind of freelancer someone to kind of help the freelancer someone to kind of help the freelancer someone to kind of help the marketing machine stay alive marketing machine stay alive marketing machine stay alive and then the operations team is really and then the operations team is really and then the operations team is really interesting because the operations team interesting because the operations team interesting because the operations team their only purpose is to support all the their only purpose is to support all the their only purpose is to support all the other people if you don't have a team other people if you don't have a team other people if you don't have a team you don't need an operations team so you don't need an operations team so you don't need an operations team so this whole area this whole area this whole area gone gone gone you know you need bookkeeping but even you know you need bookkeeping but even you know you need bookkeeping but even that you know you probably do it monthly that you know you probably do it monthly that you know you probably do it monthly honestly you could do it quarterly you honestly you could do it quarterly you honestly you could do it quarterly you could do it yearly I mean we're a SAS could do it yearly I mean we're a SAS could do it yearly I mean we're a SAS business you can just look at profit business you can just look at profit business you can just look at profit while right the math is really simple while right the math is really simple while right the math is really simple for the bookkeeping for the bookkeeping for the bookkeeping so this is what I decided to do if we're so this is what I decided to do if we're so this is what I decided to do if we're just gonna stay flat we don't need just gonna stay flat we don't need just gonna stay flat we don't need this whole team a much simpler team is a this whole team a much simpler team is a this whole team a much simpler team is a much better match much better match much better match to serve the business to serve the business to serve the business and I do want to tell you because of and I do want to tell you because of and I do want to tell you because of course I'm focusing on the logistical course I'm focusing on the logistical course I'm focusing on the logistical side the business model side of this but side the business model side of this but side the business model side of this but obviously there's a huge Human Side to

obviously there's a huge Human Side to obviously there's a huge Human Side to this as well which is why it was such a this as well which is why it was such a this as well which is why it was such a terrible thing terrible thing terrible thing to have to do but to have to do but to have to do but because I didn't wait until the ship was because I didn't wait until the ship was because I didn't wait until the ship was sinking we were able to give three sinking we were able to give three sinking we were able to give three months Severance to everyone we've months Severance to everyone we've months Severance to everyone we've always kept open financials with the always kept open financials with the always kept open financials with the entire team so people entire team so people entire team so people it was surprising but it wasn't the most it was surprising but it wasn't the most it was surprising but it wasn't the most shocking thing in the world because shocking thing in the world because shocking thing in the world because everyone knew that we weren't achieving everyone knew that we weren't achieving everyone knew that we weren't achieving growth like we wanted to be right people growth like we wanted to be right people growth like we wanted to be right people knew that things were not knew that things were not knew that things were not amazing in the business so don't get me amazing in the business so don't get me amazing in the business so don't get me wrong it was a terrible day it was very wrong it was a terrible day it was very wrong it was a terrible day it was very bad news bad news bad news but we were because it wasn't a disaster but we were because it wasn't a disaster but we were because it wasn't a disaster point in the business we were able to point in the business we were able to point in the business we were able to handle it in a way where we could be handle it in a way where we could be handle it in a way where we could be generous with people and give them generous with people and give them generous with people and give them plenty of severance give them plenty of plenty of severance give them plenty of plenty of severance give them plenty of time and health insurance uh to find time and health insurance uh to find time and health insurance uh to find their their next thing their their next thing their their next thing so here's the team that meet Edgar has so here's the team that meet Edgar has so here's the team that meet Edgar has today today today we have we have we have one freelance developer who does 20 one freelance developer who does 20 one freelance developer who does 20 hours a week mostly again maintenance hours a week mostly again maintenance hours a week mostly again maintenance bug fixing stuff for customer service we bug fixing stuff for customer service we bug fixing stuff for customer service we have a freelancer who does 10 hours a have a freelancer who does 10 hours a have a freelancer who does 10 hours a week and then we have one backup person week and then we have one backup person week and then we have one backup person I have another SAS now paper Bell so I I have another SAS now paper Bell so I I have another SAS now paper Bell so I have them cross-trained you know just if have them cross-trained you know just if have them cross-trained you know just if somebody is out they can do backup the somebody is out they can do backup the somebody is out they can do backup the customer service rep hands bugs directly customer service rep hands bugs directly customer service rep hands bugs directly to the developer so that's a really to the developer so that's a really to the developer so that's a really simple process simple process simple process for marketing we have a small content

for marketing we have a small content for marketing we have a small content agency that just updates our blog posts agency that just updates our blog posts agency that just updates our blog posts we've written over 500 blog posts why we've written over 500 blog posts why we've written over 500 blog posts why were we writing more every single week were we writing more every single week were we writing more every single week that makes no sense we're actually that makes no sense we're actually that makes no sense we're actually getting much better results now search getting much better results now search getting much better results now search optimizing and updating the posts that optimizing and updating the posts that optimizing and updating the posts that we had already written because they're we had already written because they're we had already written because they're old posts which Google actually loves so old posts which Google actually loves so old posts which Google actually loves so now we just have a freelance agency now we just have a freelance agency now we just have a freelance agency they'd completely handle the updates all they'd completely handle the updates all they'd completely handle the updates all the keyword research much much lower the keyword research much much lower the keyword research much much lower cost for them to do all that than when cost for them to do all that than when cost for them to do all that than when we were paying just one full-time person we were paying just one full-time person we were paying just one full-time person and then I like to mess around with and then I like to mess around with and then I like to mess around with marketing stuff so I spend a few hours a marketing stuff so I spend a few hours a marketing stuff so I spend a few hours a week improving funnel stuff usually week improving funnel stuff usually week improving funnel stuff usually operations we have a freelance operations we have a freelance operations we have a freelance bookkeeper bookkeeper bookkeeper who does our books monthly and uh we who does our books monthly and uh we who does our books monthly and uh we have a freelance project manager just to have a freelance project manager just to have a freelance project manager just to kind of kind of kind of I don't know if anybody has any problems I don't know if anybody has any problems I don't know if anybody has any problems or little projects the other day I got a or little projects the other day I got a or little projects the other day I got a letter from the state of Wyoming saying letter from the state of Wyoming saying letter from the state of Wyoming saying that I owed them money so I sent that to that I owed them money so I sent that to that I owed them money so I sent that to her so she could deal with it right just her so she could deal with it right just her so she could deal with it right just these random things that come up when these random things that come up when these random things that come up when you're running a business she helps with you're running a business she helps with you're running a business she helps with so here's the numbers so here's the numbers so here's the numbers and don't worry I'll give you the and don't worry I'll give you the and don't worry I'll give you the side-by-side comparison on the on the side-by-side comparison on the on the side-by-side comparison on the on the next slide now we run the whole business next slide now we run the whole business next slide now we run the whole business the same the same the same multi-million dollar ARR same business multi-million dollar ARR same business multi-million dollar ARR same business for 170 hours a month for 170 hours a month for 170 hours a month our profit margin is 60 and then with my our profit margin is 60 and then with my our profit margin is 60 and then with my like salary of 10 that takes my owner like salary of 10 that takes my owner like salary of 10 that takes my owner pay since I own the whole thing to 70 we

pay since I own the whole thing to 70 we pay since I own the whole thing to 70 we still have zero percent growth so this still have zero percent growth so this still have zero percent growth so this isn't some like amazing like oh we did isn't some like amazing like oh we did isn't some like amazing like oh we did this and then everything turned around this and then everything turned around this and then everything turned around like we still have zero percent growth like we still have zero percent growth like we still have zero percent growth that's the same but that's how it was that's the same but that's how it was that's the same but that's how it was before right the structure just makes so before right the structure just makes so before right the structure just makes so much if you're gonna have zero percent much if you're gonna have zero percent much if you're gonna have zero percent growth this is the way to do it you know growth this is the way to do it you know growth this is the way to do it you know so this like this is the big so this like this is the big so this like this is the big before and after numbers before and after numbers before and after numbers so so so our team numbers are 90 Less hours spent our team numbers are 90 Less hours spent our team numbers are 90 Less hours spent on the business to achieve the exact on the business to achieve the exact on the business to achieve the exact same outcomes same outcomes same outcomes and now the profit margin is seven times and now the profit margin is seven times and now the profit margin is seven times higher higher higher huge huge huge difference and the point huge huge huge difference and the point huge huge huge difference and the point of this is not of this is not of this is not like the profit margin is cool but the like the profit margin is cool but the like the profit margin is cool but the point of this is not to say oh like look point of this is not to say oh like look point of this is not to say oh like look you know look how much more profitable you know look how much more profitable you know look how much more profitable it is the point is really just about it is the point is really just about it is the point is really just about that that that that match of what's right for the that match of what's right for the that match of what's right for the business right like does your business business right like does your business business right like does your business need Freelancers in this role or need Freelancers in this role or need Freelancers in this role or full-time in this role like are you full-time in this role like are you full-time in this role like are you excited about building excited about building excited about building strong company culture or are you not strong company culture or are you not strong company culture or are you not like which parts of your business really like which parts of your business really like which parts of your business really need the resources or maybe you have way need the resources or maybe you have way need the resources or maybe you have way too much engineering happening and it's too much engineering happening and it's too much engineering happening and it's really not needed for your business or really not needed for your business or really not needed for your business or maybe you have too much sales or too maybe you have too much sales or too maybe you have too much sales or too much marketing like this is just about much marketing like this is just about much marketing like this is just about looking at what your situation in your

looking at what your situation in your looking at what your situation in your business is and making sure business is and making sure business is and making sure that the team and the resource spending that the team and the resource spending that the team and the resource spending that you have really matches up with that you have really matches up with that you have really matches up with what you truly need and it's really hard what you truly need and it's really hard what you truly need and it's really hard to do that after you get started because to do that after you get started because to do that after you get started because seven years in seven years in seven years in I found what I needed was to let go of I found what I needed was to let go of I found what I needed was to let go of the entire team and replace it with a the entire team and replace it with a the entire team and replace it with a totally different structure that's a totally different structure that's a totally different structure that's a really hard call to make because the really hard call to make because the really hard call to make because the people working at the business were people working at the business were people working at the business were excellent they were really good at what excellent they were really good at what excellent they were really good at what they did they were really smart people they did they were really smart people they did they were really smart people right they weren't doing a bad job we right they weren't doing a bad job we right they weren't doing a bad job we just had roles that weren't really just had roles that weren't really just had roles that weren't really needed for the company that we had needed for the company that we had needed for the company that we had so I want to take I left a lot of time so I want to take I left a lot of time so I want to take I left a lot of time for questions because I want to know for questions because I want to know for questions because I want to know what you want to dive into more what you want to dive into more what you want to dive into more but what I want to leave it with is just but what I want to leave it with is just but what I want to leave it with is just for you to again reflect on what is this for you to again reflect on what is this for you to again reflect on what is this thing in your business that feels really thing in your business that feels really thing in your business that feels really scary that feels overwhelming feels like scary that feels overwhelming feels like scary that feels overwhelming feels like you can't do it but you know that you you can't do it but you know that you you can't do it but you know that you need to do what is that change thank you and thanks Lara great talk a difficult and thanks Lara great talk a difficult decision I can imagine decision I can imagine decision I can imagine um I'm wondering though um I'm wondering though um I'm wondering though there's a lot of competition in your there's a lot of competition in your there's a lot of competition in your field field field um and by removing most of the products um and by removing most of the products um and by removing most of the products uh capacity within your team are you not uh capacity within your team are you not uh capacity within your team are you not afraid that your product will stagnate

afraid that your product will stagnate afraid that your product will stagnate and eventually uh growth will yeah at and eventually uh growth will yeah at and eventually uh growth will yeah at least you'll decrease in in Revenue least you'll decrease in in Revenue least you'll decrease in in Revenue along the way and that you'll be along the way and that you'll be along the way and that you'll be squeezing out most of the business like squeezing out most of the business like squeezing out most of the business like this this this I think that is likely I think that that I think that is likely I think that that I think that is likely I think that that is expected I think if we continue to is expected I think if we continue to is expected I think if we continue to keep the product in the same place over keep the product in the same place over keep the product in the same place over time yeah it won't stay exactly flat time yeah it won't stay exactly flat time yeah it won't stay exactly flat it'll continue to inch down and so I it'll continue to inch down and so I it'll continue to inch down and so I think that's just a question of I can think that's just a question of I can think that's just a question of I can either be okay with that of saying okay either be okay with that of saying okay either be okay with that of saying okay I see it inching down there's a lot of I see it inching down there's a lot of I see it inching down there's a lot of room for it to inch or we can bring in room for it to inch or we can bring in room for it to inch or we can bring in more resources so something we've done more resources so something we've done more resources so something we've done at this point is we have a Dev agency at this point is we have a Dev agency at this point is we have a Dev agency trained up on the software honestly we trained up on the software honestly we trained up on the software honestly we thought we would need more resources thought we would need more resources thought we would need more resources than we do so we got an agency trained than we do so we got an agency trained than we do so we got an agency trained up and then we saw that we just don't up and then we saw that we just don't up and then we saw that we just don't really need them right now but we could really need them right now but we could really need them right now but we could bring in them or we could bring in other bring in them or we could bring in other bring in them or we could bring in other Talent if we get to a point where like Talent if we get to a point where like Talent if we get to a point where like okay we do want to spend more on feature okay we do want to spend more on feature okay we do want to spend more on feature development so it's just looking at it development so it's just looking at it development so it's just looking at it in a more flexible and of course there in a more flexible and of course there in a more flexible and of course there are downsides to that right like we have are downsides to that right like we have are downsides to that right like we have a huge code base they're not familiar a huge code base they're not familiar a huge code base they're not familiar with as the people in this room know you with as the people in this room know you with as the people in this room know you can't just snap your fingers and just can't just snap your fingers and just can't just snap your fingers and just like pop a new feature on like pop a new feature on like pop a new feature on but that's now a trade-off that we're but that's now a trade-off that we're but that's now a trade-off that we're willing to make willing to make willing to make hey Laura hi great talk um I'm curious hey Laura hi great talk um I'm curious hey Laura hi great talk um I'm curious like why uh so you also have another like why uh so you also have another like why uh so you also have another business coming up now uh and now you're business coming up now uh and now you're business coming up now uh and now you're making a couple of million that's like making a couple of million that's like making a couple of million that's like great money why not sell it great money why not sell it great money why not sell it I think I will I think I will yeah I I think I will I think I will yeah I I think I will I think I will yeah I mean that's that's something that I am mean that's that's something that I am mean that's that's something that I am exploring and

that was something that was on the that was something that was on the horizon I could kind of decide okay do I horizon I could kind of decide okay do I horizon I could kind of decide okay do I keep it do I sell it and I wanted to see keep it do I sell it and I wanted to see keep it do I sell it and I wanted to see how it felt with this new structure it's how it felt with this new structure it's how it felt with this new structure it's a little boring with this new structure a little boring with this new structure a little boring with this new structure honestly because it is so honestly because it is so honestly because it is so yeah boring because nothing nothing yeah boring because nothing nothing yeah boring because nothing nothing really is happening really is happening really is happening um so I I do think that's something that um so I I do think that's something that um so I I do think that's something that I'll do within the next year or so um great talk uh thank you Laura wait um great talk uh thank you Laura wait who's talking okay thank you here who's talking okay thank you here who's talking okay thank you here um um um one question I have is one question I have is one question I have is how could you have avoided like so like how could you have avoided like so like how could you have avoided like so like you you told us you you told us you you told us what led you to hire that many people what led you to hire that many people what led you to hire that many people but what you could do what could you but what you could do what could you but what you could do what could you have done differently to Berlin from day have done differently to Berlin from day have done differently to Berlin from day one one one well I'm doing it because I have another well I'm doing it because I have another well I'm doing it because I have another sass now and that was also a big impetus sass now and that was also a big impetus sass now and that was also a big impetus in making this decision because with in making this decision because with in making this decision because with paper bell uh I have gone a different paper bell uh I have gone a different paper bell uh I have gone a different route of going very freelancer heavy I route of going very freelancer heavy I route of going very freelancer heavy I mean paper ball is much it's a much mean paper ball is much it's a much mean paper ball is much it's a much smaller business we launched a year ago smaller business we launched a year ago smaller business we launched a year ago and the growth hasn't been you know and the growth hasn't been you know and the growth hasn't been you know we're not in a million error the growth we're not in a million error the growth we're not in a million error the growth hasn't been as fast as it was initially hasn't been as fast as it was initially hasn't been as fast as it was initially for meet Edgar uh but I just saw with for meet Edgar uh but I just saw with for meet Edgar uh but I just saw with paper bell firsthand how much we could paper bell firsthand how much we could paper bell firsthand how much we could accomplish with really targeted accomplish with really targeted accomplish with really targeted Freelancers you know we're also like Freelancers you know we're also like Freelancers you know we're also like your business very SEO heavy and content your business very SEO heavy and content your business very SEO heavy and content heavy so our process is we hire a heavy so our process is we hire a heavy so our process is we hire a freelance firm to write the keyword freelance firm to write the keyword freelance firm to write the keyword briefs do all of our article research

briefs do all of our article research briefs do all of our article research higher freelance writers to get them higher freelance writers to get them higher freelance writers to get them done and it's been amazing to me how done and it's been amazing to me how done and it's been amazing to me how effective that is you know that we have effective that is you know that we have effective that is you know that we have a whole now a whole now a whole now great content SEO strategy that's really great content SEO strategy that's really great content SEO strategy that's really starting to work with such a lean team starting to work with such a lean team starting to work with such a lean team and so now we're ready to grow our and so now we're ready to grow our and so now we're ready to grow our development capacity but we're not development capacity but we're not development capacity but we're not looking to bring on someone full time looking to bring on someone full time looking to bring on someone full time yet we're looking to bring on someone yet we're looking to bring on someone yet we're looking to bring on someone freelance who wants a side gig oh by the freelance who wants a side gig oh by the freelance who wants a side gig oh by the way full stack Ruby on Rails where way full stack Ruby on Rails where way full stack Ruby on Rails where cool side gig while you're on your SAS cool side gig while you're on your SAS cool side gig while you're on your SAS um so yeah we're just approaching in a um so yeah we're just approaching in a um so yeah we're just approaching in a different way where it's like different way where it's like different way where it's like if we ever do full-time to really be if we ever do full-time to really be if we ever do full-time to really be sure that this role is going to be sure that this role is going to be sure that this role is going to be indispensable you know in in the future indispensable you know in in the future indispensable you know in in the future and to really avoid having full time and to really avoid having full time and to really avoid having full time in-house employees if if we can which is in-house employees if if we can which is in-house employees if if we can which is just a different experiment like I I just a different experiment like I I just a different experiment like I I genuinely don't think that that's what genuinely don't think that that's what genuinely don't think that that's what people should do I think I'm excited to people should do I think I'm excited to people should do I think I'm excited to try that this time so that's what I'm try that this time so that's what I'm try that this time so that's what I'm trying to avoid some of the mistakes I trying to avoid some of the mistakes I trying to avoid some of the mistakes I made before um this question by the way very nice um this question by the way very nice talk talk talk [Music] [Music] [Music] if you were thinking about selling your if you were thinking about selling your if you were thinking about selling your company and the prospective buyer asked company and the prospective buyer asked company and the prospective buyer asked you why can't you grow what would be you why can't you grow what would be you why can't you grow what would be your answer to that and what sorts of your answer to that and what sorts of your answer to that and what sorts of things have you tried to do to grow and things have you tried to do to grow and things have you tried to do to grow and why do you think you can't grow I mean why do you think you can't grow I mean why do you think you can't grow I mean it's the million dollar question it's the million dollar question it's the million dollar question if I knew exactly what to do I would be

if I knew exactly what to do I would be if I knew exactly what to do I would be doing it I know that there's space to doing it I know that there's space to doing it I know that there's space to grow in this industry because there are grow in this industry because there are grow in this industry because there are social media scheduling tools that are social media scheduling tools that are social media scheduling tools that are larger than we are so I know we don't larger than we are so I know we don't larger than we are so I know we don't have every customer that you can have have every customer that you can have have every customer that you can have um you know I mean I've started um you know I mean I've started um you know I mean I've started exploring the process of selling the exploring the process of selling the exploring the process of selling the business and it's interesting when you business and it's interesting when you business and it's interesting when you Excel because I think a lot of the Excel because I think a lot of the Excel because I think a lot of the things that you feel things that you feel things that you feel are huge problems in the business and are huge problems in the business and are huge problems in the business and they are but they're also big they are but they're also big they are but they're also big opportunities for the acquirer right and opportunities for the acquirer right and opportunities for the acquirer right and a choir often doesn't want a fully a choir often doesn't want a fully a choir often doesn't want a fully optimized business they want to come in optimized business they want to come in optimized business they want to come in um and be able to add their playbook and um and be able to add their playbook and um and be able to add their playbook and add their growth strategies so add their growth strategies so add their growth strategies so I don't have an amazing answer for you I I don't have an amazing answer for you I I don't have an amazing answer for you I mean mean mean I suspect that it's a change in I suspect that it's a change in I suspect that it's a change in uh uh uh positioning slash pricing we have no positioning slash pricing we have no positioning slash pricing we have no expansion Revenue we have I mean we just expansion Revenue we have I mean we just expansion Revenue we have I mean we just added a 19 plan added a 19 plan added a 19 plan like two years ago so you can like two years ago so you can like two years ago so you can technically move from 19 to 49 but technically move from 19 to 49 but technically move from 19 to 49 but there's no usage or users or anything there's no usage or users or anything there's no usage or users or anything like that so that's kind of an easy like that so that's kind of an easy like that so that's kind of an easy target we actually started building target we actually started building target we actually started building um the ability to add on more users and um the ability to add on more users and um the ability to add on more users and charge for them when we made this charge for them when we made this charge for them when we made this whole big change so we and it wasn't whole big change so we and it wasn't whole big change so we and it wasn't done so we just shot down done so we just shot down done so we just shot down that feature so I suspected something in that feature so I suspected something in that feature so I suspected something in there there there um but I don't think I'll be the one to um but I don't think I'll be the one to um but I don't think I'll be the one to to find out I think there and honestly to find out I think there and honestly to find out I think there and honestly that's the other thing about selling it

that's the other thing about selling it that's the other thing about selling it I do think there are people out there I do think there are people out there I do think there are people out there that are going to be able to do a better that are going to be able to do a better that are going to be able to do a better job job job growing this business growing this business growing this business really really great talk really really great talk really really great talk um I'm just thinking now with the um I'm just thinking now with the um I'm just thinking now with the questions for the selling like it questions for the selling like it questions for the selling like it strikes me that what you did was strikes me that what you did was strikes me that what you did was actually actually actually um prepare the business for a pivot um prepare the business for a pivot um prepare the business for a pivot because it's a lot easier when you have because it's a lot easier when you have because it's a lot easier when you have a small team a small team a small team than asking a current team to do all than asking a current team to do all than asking a current team to do all kinds of things differently right so kinds of things differently right so kinds of things differently right so maybe that's an argument in in the maybe that's an argument in in the maybe that's an argument in in the selling process or maybe it's a way to selling process or maybe it's a way to selling process or maybe it's a way to go for you obviously you have another go for you obviously you have another go for you obviously you have another company that you want to focus on so company that you want to focus on so company that you want to focus on so maybe it's not but how what did you maybe it's not but how what did you maybe it's not but how what did you think about the pivot housing market for think about the pivot housing market for think about the pivot housing market for that and stuff like that yeah I mean that and stuff like that yeah I mean that and stuff like that yeah I mean that definitely aligns with my thinking that definitely aligns with my thinking that definitely aligns with my thinking at the time that this would be kind of a at the time that this would be kind of a at the time that this would be kind of a clean slate and there were different clean slate and there were different clean slate and there were different directions that I could go that I could directions that I could go that I could directions that I could go that I could decide yeah just to keep the business decide yeah just to keep the business decide yeah just to keep the business passively that I could decide to sell it passively that I could decide to sell it passively that I could decide to sell it that I could decide okay we need we're that I could decide okay we need we're that I could decide okay we need we're going to build up a team again but we're going to build up a team again but we're going to build up a team again but we're going to build it in a different way going to build it in a different way going to build it in a different way with a different mix of roles also just with a different mix of roles also just with a different mix of roles also just you know I obviously just did a bad job you know I obviously just did a bad job you know I obviously just did a bad job keeping people on priority you know when keeping people on priority you know when keeping people on priority you know when I look at I look at I look at the size of our engineering team versus the size of our engineering team versus the size of our engineering team versus now and getting the same results now and getting the same results now and getting the same results um um um I'm not a developer y'all love I'm not a developer y'all love I'm not a developer y'all love refactoring you love refactoring so much refactoring you love refactoring so much refactoring you love refactoring so much and there is so much of it happening at and there is so much of it happening at and there is so much of it happening at Edgar we have a beautiful code base with Edgar we have a beautiful code base with Edgar we have a beautiful code base with so much testing so much testing so much testing um but I think the priorities were not um but I think the priorities were not um but I think the priorities were not right and what we were spending time on

right and what we were spending time on right and what we were spending time on because we didn't have the right balance because we didn't have the right balance because we didn't have the right balance of all the refactoring stuff combined of all the refactoring stuff combined of all the refactoring stuff combined with maybe things that would put us with maybe things that would put us with maybe things that would put us ahead with a competition where we didn't ahead with a competition where we didn't ahead with a competition where we didn't get that balance right so yeah I think get that balance right so yeah I think get that balance right so yeah I think it's it was kind of a clean slate move it's it was kind of a clean slate move it's it was kind of a clean slate move and it can and it can and it can it can go a few different ways in the it can go a few different ways in the it can go a few different ways in the future future future uh hey Laura thank you very much for uh hey Laura thank you very much for uh hey Laura thank you very much for amazing talk uh I have a question uh amazing talk uh I have a question uh amazing talk uh I have a question uh have you step it back because you were have you step it back because you were have you step it back because you were saying that you were growing initially saying that you were growing initially saying that you were growing initially very intensively uh have you considered very intensively uh have you considered very intensively uh have you considered it maybe there is was something changes it maybe there is was something changes it maybe there is was something changes that you stop it to grow or you it was that you stop it to grow or you it was that you stop it to grow or you it was just a market itself because it feels just a market itself because it feels just a market itself because it feels that market is quite big there are a lot that market is quite big there are a lot that market is quite big there are a lot of tools and they keep growing maybe of tools and they keep growing maybe of tools and they keep growing maybe something happening at this point yeah something happening at this point yeah something happening at this point yeah so startups for the rest of us where I did startups for the rest of us where I did talk about some of this in more detail talk about some of this in more detail talk about some of this in more detail so there was one big event that happened so there was one big event that happened so there was one big event that happened which was we lost the ability on Twitter which was we lost the ability on Twitter which was we lost the ability on Twitter to kind of do our core functionality to kind of do our core functionality to kind of do our core functionality which is repurposing content which is repurposing content which is repurposing content Twitter band uh sending the same content Twitter band uh sending the same content Twitter band uh sending the same content out repeatedly and that was like that out repeatedly and that was like that out repeatedly and that was like that was the beginning of the bad times like was the beginning of the bad times like was the beginning of the bad times like we lost a big chunk of mrr at that time we lost a big chunk of mrr at that time we lost a big chunk of mrr at that time and we just like never got our mojo back and we just like never got our mojo back and we just like never got our mojo back um also when we launched we were super um also when we launched we were super um also when we launched we were super unique and we were the only ones with unique and we were the only ones with unique and we were the only ones with the ability to do what we did with the the ability to do what we did with the the ability to do what we did with the workflow and since we launched their

workflow and since we launched their workflow and since we launched their more copycat tools came out which more copycat tools came out which more copycat tools came out which happens so I think also that happens so I think also that happens so I think also that is why we didn't after time I have such is why we didn't after time I have such is why we didn't after time I have such a fast growth rate because at first for a fast growth rate because at first for a fast growth rate because at first for the first two years if you wanted to be the first two years if you wanted to be the first two years if you wanted to be able to repurpose your content on social able to repurpose your content on social able to repurpose your content on social media we were the only game in town and media we were the only game in town and media we were the only game in town and now and now we're not so yeah I think it now and now we're not so yeah I think it now and now we're not so yeah I think it was internal mistakes that we made and was internal mistakes that we made and was internal mistakes that we made and also external factors that made things a also external factors that made things a also external factors that made things a little harder hi Laura thanks it was a great talk hi Laura thanks it was a great talk um you obviously had a lot of learnings um you obviously had a lot of learnings um you obviously had a lot of learnings from me Edgar and whether that was your from me Edgar and whether that was your from me Edgar and whether that was your first startup or not in terms of when first startup or not in terms of when first startup or not in terms of when you then started paper bill you had a you then started paper bill you had a you then started paper bill you had a new vision for how you wanted to build new vision for how you wanted to build new vision for how you wanted to build the business did you find it hard to the business did you find it hard to the business did you find it hard to stick to that or did you find yourself stick to that or did you find yourself stick to that or did you find yourself slipping into Old Habits because the slipping into Old Habits because the slipping into Old Habits because the last time you built a business you did last time you built a business you did last time you built a business you did it very differently yeah it very differently yeah it very differently yeah that's an interesting question that's an interesting question that's an interesting question um I did um I did um I did I didn't find it hard because I do have I didn't find it hard because I do have I didn't find it hard because I do have a lot of the same habits because there a lot of the same habits because there a lot of the same habits because there were a lot of things that we did right were a lot of things that we did right were a lot of things that we did right with Edgar right like I said it's kind with Edgar right like I said it's kind with Edgar right like I said it's kind of weird because I'm I'm up here talking of weird because I'm I'm up here talking of weird because I'm I'm up here talking about something that's hard and about something that's hard and about something that's hard and something that's a bad time but I the something that's a bad time but I the something that's a bad time but I the business is still you know I definitely business is still you know I definitely business is still you know I definitely still consider it a success overall so still consider it a success overall so still consider it a success overall so with paper bell uh you know I referenced with paper bell uh you know I referenced with paper bell uh you know I referenced SEO and content marketing we're using SEO and content marketing we're using SEO and content marketing we're using that same Playbook to build paper bell that same Playbook to build paper bell that same Playbook to build paper bell that we used to build meet Edgar and that we used to build meet Edgar and that we used to build meet Edgar and that's kind of my side the business that's kind of my side the business that's kind of my side the business marketing side so I'm doing a lot of the marketing side so I'm doing a lot of the marketing side so I'm doing a lot of the same habits and the same activities same habits and the same activities same habits and the same activities but really the team stuff is what looks

but really the team stuff is what looks but really the team stuff is what looks really different and it's not hard for really different and it's not hard for really different and it's not hard for me because I miss it because it was so me because I miss it because it was so me because I miss it because it was so long since I wrote a marketing copy for long since I wrote a marketing copy for long since I wrote a marketing copy for Edgar you know I had other people doing Edgar you know I had other people doing Edgar you know I had other people doing that but I love doing that so it's that but I love doing that so it's that but I love doing that so it's actually been really fun for paper bell actually been really fun for paper bell actually been really fun for paper bell you know I built a whole website myself you know I built a whole website myself you know I built a whole website myself I wrote all the copy on it I'm I'm still I wrote all the copy on it I'm I'm still I wrote all the copy on it I'm I'm still at that place where it's really fun to at that place where it's really fun to at that place where it's really fun to be able to do all that execution work be able to do all that execution work be able to do all that execution work maybe in a year or two I'll I'll get maybe in a year or two I'll I'll get maybe in a year or two I'll I'll get bored of it and I'll have more people bored of it and I'll have more people bored of it and I'll have more people doing it uh but yeah it's it's largely doing it uh but yeah it's it's largely doing it uh but yeah it's it's largely the same the same the same kind of Playbook and how we are building kind of Playbook and how we are building kind of Playbook and how we are building the product and the marketing uh but the product and the marketing uh but the product and the marketing uh but with a different team structure it's uh Laura for being uh so candid it's uh Laura for being uh so candid with your your tough decision that you with your your tough decision that you with your your tough decision that you had to make had to make had to make um I had a question regarding like were um I had a question regarding like were um I had a question regarding like were you involved in setting the road map and you involved in setting the road map and you involved in setting the road map and the product vision and you know how did the product vision and you know how did the product vision and you know how did you get to the point where you're just you get to the point where you're just you get to the point where you're just like I'm willing to throw this all away like I'm willing to throw this all away like I'm willing to throw this all away and like none of this is going to work and like none of this is going to work and like none of this is going to work I'm gonna downsize the team I'm gonna downsize the team I'm gonna downsize the team well I don't know if anyone else does well I don't know if anyone else does well I don't know if anyone else does this we would throw out our roadmap all this we would throw out our roadmap all this we would throw out our roadmap all the time I don't like I don't know if the time I don't like I don't know if the time I don't like I don't know if we're the only one like our road map was we're the only one like our road map was we're the only one like our road map was just get crazy and then we'd be like we just get crazy and then we'd be like we just get crazy and then we'd be like we can't handle it like we're throwing away can't handle it like we're throwing away can't handle it like we're throwing away the whole thing so I think that part the whole thing so I think that part the whole thing so I think that part maybe didn't seem that that weird maybe didn't seem that that weird maybe didn't seem that that weird um and of course there are always things um and of course there are always things um and of course there are always things to build and always things to improve to build and always things to improve to build and always things to improve but we we do feel like okay the core but we we do feel like okay the core but we we do feel like okay the core functionality is is there you know there

functionality is is there you know there functionality is is there you know there there aren't like huge things that are there aren't like huge things that are there aren't like huge things that are super missing from the product I mean in super missing from the product I mean in super missing from the product I mean in my opinion maybe someone else would feel my opinion maybe someone else would feel my opinion maybe someone else would feel would feel differently would feel differently would feel differently um so yeah you know I would be um so yeah you know I would be um so yeah you know I would be I would be sort of involved with the I would be sort of involved with the I would be sort of involved with the product Vision but honestly it's not a product Vision but honestly it's not a product Vision but honestly it's not a huge strong point for me my side is huge strong point for me my side is huge strong point for me my side is definitely more marketing and audience definitely more marketing and audience definitely more marketing and audience building and stuff like that so not building and stuff like that so not building and stuff like that so not having control over that and throwing it having control over that and throwing it having control over that and throwing it out was not super sad for me thanks for the talk thanks for the talk um in the beginning you said you had the um in the beginning you said you had the um in the beginning you said you had the feeling that as a proper startup as a feeling that as a proper startup as a feeling that as a proper startup as a real startup you had to have lots of real startup you had to have lots of real startup you had to have lots of people to present yourself people to present yourself people to present yourself did you also have an office that people did you also have an office that people did you also have an office that people go to an office okay just yeah we were go to an office okay just yeah we were go to an office okay just yeah we were always remote yeah okay we were remote always remote yeah okay we were remote always remote yeah okay we were remote but we were all in the US and we would but we were all in the US and we would but we were all in the US and we would work at the work at the work at the Center so a kind of synchronous remote thanks for the talk thanks for the talk um how did the team handle the news and um how did the team handle the news and um how did the team handle the news and was there any hard discussions after the was there any hard discussions after the was there any hard discussions after the initial announcement and how did that initial announcement and how did that initial announcement and how did that went for you went for you went for you um it went surprisingly well and I don't um it went surprisingly well and I don't um it went surprisingly well and I don't want to sound blase because of course it want to sound blase because of course it want to sound blase because of course it was easier for me than it was for the was easier for me than it was for the was easier for me than it was for the other side other side other side um um um we had actually built our retention for we had actually built our retention for we had actually built our retention for the team was amazing because we had

the team was amazing because we had the team was amazing because we had built a really great place to work we built a really great place to work we built a really great place to work we had really great work-life balance we had really great work-life balance we had really great work-life balance we paid well people had great benefits so I paid well people had great benefits so I paid well people had great benefits so I actually heard from more than one person actually heard from more than one person actually heard from more than one person that they were kind of wanting to quit that they were kind of wanting to quit that they were kind of wanting to quit but they were not wanting to be but they were not wanting to be but they were not wanting to be disruptive to the team or they didn't disruptive to the team or they didn't disruptive to the team or they didn't want to lose some of that culture that want to lose some of that culture that want to lose some of that culture that we had so there there were at least a we had so there there were at least a we had so there there were at least a handful of people that this was handful of people that this was handful of people that this was immediately kind of a I've sort of immediately kind of a I've sort of immediately kind of a I've sort of secretly been hoping for this because secretly been hoping for this because secretly been hoping for this because also like being in a startup that's also like being in a startup that's also like being in a startup that's trying to grow and is failing sucks you trying to grow and is failing sucks you trying to grow and is failing sucks you know it's it's not fun when you're like know it's it's not fun when you're like know it's it's not fun when you're like we're gonna put all this time and money we're gonna put all this time and money we're gonna put all this time and money in 2020 and all these things that didn't in 2020 and all these things that didn't in 2020 and all these things that didn't work it's it sucks it's hard you know so work it's it sucks it's hard you know so work it's it sucks it's hard you know so honestly there was only one person who honestly there was only one person who honestly there was only one person who did have an extremely negative reaction did have an extremely negative reaction did have an extremely negative reaction and have a really hard time with it and have a really hard time with it and have a really hard time with it um but besides that um but besides that um but besides that like I said the anticipation was like I said the anticipation was like I said the anticipation was actually much much worse than the actually much much worse than the actually much much worse than the conversations conversations conversations um and you know I was able to see the um and you know I was able to see the um and you know I was able to see the jobs that people went on to next and jobs that people went on to next and jobs that people went on to next and some people the company you know like on some people the company you know like on some people the company you know like on our customer service team had never our customer service team had never our customer service team had never worked in the startup world before and worked in the startup world before and worked in the startup world before and then they got to go on after us to some then they got to go on after us to some then they got to go on after us to some of the really like top well-respected of the really like top well-respected of the really like top well-respected companies which they were really excited companies which they were really excited companies which they were really excited about so that was that was really cool about so that was that was really cool about so that was that was really cool to see to see to see all right thank you Laura thank you