All Things Design with Tracy Osborn, Author of Hello Web Design — MicroConf On Air

a couple of Wednesdays. Producers Andrew a couple of Wednesdays. Producers Andrew and I get together and we live stream and I get together and we live stream and I get together and we live stream for about 30 minutes. We talk about for about 30 minutes. We talk about for about 30 minutes. We talk about topics around startups, topics around startups, topics around startups, bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped companies, things like companies, things like companies, things like seeking freedom, purpose, and seeking freedom, purpose, and seeking freedom, purpose, and relationships, but also seeking to build relationships, but also seeking to build relationships, but also seeking to build incredible companies that maybe change incredible companies that maybe change incredible companies that maybe change our life, maybe change the life of those our life, maybe change the life of those our life, maybe change the life of those lives of those around us. lives of those around us. lives of those around us. Thanks so much for joining me this week. Thanks so much for joining me this week. Thanks so much for joining me this week. I am excited to dig in today. I am excited to dig in today. I am excited to dig in today. Someone was uh Someone was uh Someone was uh was chiding me that I haven't been was chiding me that I haven't been was chiding me that I haven't been telling enough jokes on MicroConf On telling enough jokes on MicroConf On telling enough jokes on MicroConf On Air. Air. Air. And uh I'm working on it. All right. And uh I'm working on it. All right. And uh I'm working on it. All right. May- maybe I'll work one in today May- maybe I'll work one in today May- maybe I'll work one in today as I uh as I bring my guest on. Today, as I uh as I bring my guest on. Today, as I uh as I bring my guest on. Today, I'm excited to talk about design and I'm excited to talk about design and I'm excited to talk about design and not just design, but design fundamentals not just design, but design fundamentals not just design, but design fundamentals for non-designers. for non-designers. for non-designers. And this is a topic I've always loved And this is a topic I've always loved And this is a topic I've always loved folks who are experts in a space folks who are experts in a space folks who are experts in a space trying to communicate or doing the best trying to communicate or doing the best trying to communicate or doing the best to communicate the 80/20 of that space. to communicate the 80/20 of that space. to communicate the 80/20 of that space. So, whether it's, you know, a developer So, whether it's, you know, a developer So, whether it's, you know, a developer who's who's teaching someone, "Hey, this who's who's teaching someone, "Hey, this who's who's teaching someone, "Hey, this is this is all you need to know. You can is this is all you need to know. You can is this is all you need to know. You can use no-code and you can cobble this use no-code and you can cobble this use no-code and you can cobble this stuff together with with Zapier and stuff together with with Zapier and stuff together with with Zapier and Bubble and Notion." Or it's a designer Bubble and Notion." Or it's a designer Bubble and Notion." Or it's a designer who says, "I have all this knowledge. I who says, "I have all this knowledge. I who says, "I have all this knowledge. I have a decade or more of experience have a decade or more of experience have a decade or more of experience creating, you know, amazing-looking creating, you know, amazing-looking creating, you know, amazing-looking designs."

designs." designs." And the dirty little secret is if you And the dirty little secret is if you And the dirty little secret is if you know like know like know like five things, you can you'll probably be five things, you can you'll probably be five things, you can you'll probably be twice as good at design tomorrow as you twice as good at design tomorrow as you twice as good at design tomorrow as you are today. And that's what we're talking are today. And that's what we're talking are today. And that's what we're talking about today. Um I'm going to bring my about today. Um I'm going to bring my about today. Um I'm going to bring my guest Tracy Osborn on in just a minute, guest Tracy Osborn on in just a minute, guest Tracy Osborn on in just a minute, but Tracy, if you don't know, is the but Tracy, if you don't know, is the but Tracy, if you don't know, is the program manager for Tinyseed, but before program manager for Tinyseed, but before program manager for Tinyseed, but before she joined us a couple years ago she joined us a couple years ago she joined us a couple years ago at Tinyseed, she had started her own at Tinyseed, she had started her own at Tinyseed, she had started her own startup called Wedding Lovely and she startup called Wedding Lovely and she startup called Wedding Lovely and she has written multiple books, two or has written multiple books, two or has written multiple books, two or three, maybe four. She'll correct me three, maybe four. She'll correct me three, maybe four. She'll correct me when she gets on. But the one we're when she gets on. But the one we're when she gets on. But the one we're going to talk about today is called going to talk about today is called going to talk about today is called Hello Web Design. Hello Web Design. Hello Web Design. And the tagline is design fundamentals And the tagline is design fundamentals And the tagline is design fundamentals and shortcuts for non-designers, and shortcuts for non-designers, and shortcuts for non-designers, real-world examples, and real-world examples, and real-world examples, and easy-to-understand principles to help easy-to-understand principles to help easy-to-understand principles to help you become a better designer. you become a better designer. you become a better designer. And what I like about today's episode And what I like about today's episode And what I like about today's episode is, you know, I could bring anyone on to is, you know, I could bring anyone on to is, you know, I could bring anyone on to talk design and we would talk about a talk design and we would talk about a talk design and we would talk about a lot of theory and we would talk about lot of theory and we would talk about lot of theory and we would talk about stuff that probably isn't going to help stuff that probably isn't going to help stuff that probably isn't going to help you today. It isn't going to make your you today. It isn't going to make your you today. It isn't going to make your app look better or your webpage look app look better or your webpage look app look better or your webpage look better today. But what Tracy has done in better today. But what Tracy has done in better today. But what Tracy has done in in Hello Web Design, this you know, in Hello Web Design, this you know, in Hello Web Design, this you know, compact 150-page book compact 150-page book compact 150-page book is communicate a bunch of succinct, is communicate a bunch of succinct, is communicate a bunch of succinct, actionable tips for I like to think of actionable tips for I like to think of actionable tips for I like to think of it as for developers, but frankly, it's it as for developers, but frankly, it's it as for developers, but frankly, it's just for anyone who wants their stuff to just for anyone who wants their stuff to just for anyone who wants their stuff to look better. So, with that, let me look better. So, with that, let me look better. So, with that, let me welcome my guest Tracy Osborn to the welcome my guest Tracy Osborn to the welcome my guest Tracy Osborn to the show. Welcome back, Tracy.

show. Welcome back, Tracy. show. Welcome back, Tracy. Hey, thanks for having me. Hey, thanks for having me. Hey, thanks for having me. Absolutely. You've been on several Absolutely. You've been on several Absolutely. You've been on several episodes of Startups for the Rest of Us episodes of Startups for the Rest of Us episodes of Startups for the Rest of Us if folks recognize your voice. Have you if folks recognize your voice. Have you if folks recognize your voice. Have you been on On Air as well? A couple times, been on On Air as well? A couple times, been on On Air as well? A couple times, right? right? right? Yes. Mhm. Yeah, a couple times. Yes. Mhm. Yeah, a couple times. Yes. Mhm. Yeah, a couple times. So, you should be familiar to the So, you should be familiar to the So, you should be familiar to the audience and of course um audience and of course um audience and of course um Tracy is @tracymakes on Twitter and she Tracy is @tracymakes on Twitter and she Tracy is @tracymakes on Twitter and she is the uh she's a part-time moderator of is the uh she's a part-time moderator of is the uh she's a part-time moderator of MicroConf Connect. If you're in MicroConf Connect. If you're in MicroConf Connect. If you're in MicroConf Connect, you've probably been MicroConf Connect, you've probably been MicroConf Connect, you've probably been gently nudged by Tracy to red your gently nudged by Tracy to red your gently nudged by Tracy to red your conversations. conversations. conversations. I love it. You have not You have It's I love it. You have not You have It's I love it. You have not You have It's like a right of passage. It's in the like a right of passage. It's in the like a right of passage. It's in the Tinyseed Slack, too. If Tracy has not Tinyseed Slack, too. If Tracy has not Tinyseed Slack, too. If Tracy has not nudged you to thread your combo, I don't nudged you to thread your combo, I don't nudged you to thread your combo, I don't know that you're posting enough in know that you're posting enough in know that you're posting enough in Slack. Slack. Slack. That's my rule. That's my rule. That's my rule. Hey, I do good things, too. Hey, I do good things, too. Hey, I do good things, too. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I think moderating and encouraging I think moderating and encouraging I think moderating and encouraging people to thread is a good thing, so people to thread is a good thing, so people to thread is a good thing, so Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. Thank thanks for joining me today. Um Thank thanks for joining me today. Um Thank thanks for joining me today. Um yeah, @tracymakes on Twitter. Okay. So, yeah, @tracymakes on Twitter. Okay. So, yeah, @tracymakes on Twitter. Okay. So, to kick us off, to kick us off, to kick us off, there's a lot There's a lot to talk there's a lot There's a lot to talk there's a lot There's a lot to talk about here and frankly, um you know, the about here and frankly, um you know, the about here and frankly, um you know, the the the the timing is good today because you timing is good today because you timing is good today because you self-published this book, but now a self-published this book, but now a self-published this book, but now a publisher has picked it up and this book publisher has picked it up and this book publisher has picked it up and this book is going to be uh re-released in May and is going to be uh re-released in May and is going to be uh re-released in May and pre-sales are available uh in the pre-sales are available uh in the pre-sales are available uh in the episode description of this episode, but episode description of this episode, but episode description of this episode, but if where can people go today if they if where can people go today if they if where can people go today if they want to pre-order the book?

want to pre-order the book? want to pre-order the book? That's uh so That's uh so That's uh so I'll pre-empt to say a lot of people I'll pre-empt to say a lot of people I'll pre-empt to say a lot of people will put in Hello Web Design and they'll will put in Hello Web Design and they'll will put in Hello Web Design and they'll find my website, um which is find my website, um which is find my website, um which is hellowebbooks. Uh there's no link over hellowebbooks. Uh there's no link over hellowebbooks. Uh there's no link over yet because I've upgraded my computer yet because I've upgraded my computer yet because I've upgraded my computer and I haven't fixed my development and I haven't fixed my development and I haven't fixed my development environment. I can't deploy yet. So, not environment. I can't deploy yet. So, not environment. I can't deploy yet. So, not my website. It'll be fixed soon as soon my website. It'll be fixed soon as soon my website. It'll be fixed soon as soon as I figure out to figure out how to as I figure out to figure out how to as I figure out to figure out how to deploy again. Yeah, I know. I need to deploy again. Yeah, I know. I need to deploy again. Yeah, I know. I need to switch it. I have I've been thinking switch it. I have I've been thinking switch it. I have I've been thinking about it. Uh but if you search for No about it. Uh but if you search for No about it. Uh but if you search for No Starch Press, which is the publisher for Starch Press, which is the publisher for Starch Press, which is the publisher for Hello Web Design, then you'll Hello Web Design, then you'll Hello Web Design, then you'll you'll with um Hello Web Design, then you'll with um Hello Web Design, then you'll with um Hello Web Design, then you'll get the the right link for the you'll get the the right link for the you'll get the the right link for the pre-order. Um and I think they're doing pre-order. Um and I think they're doing pre-order. Um and I think they're doing a pre-order a pre-order a pre-order uh coupon. It's right on the page. I uh coupon. It's right on the page. I uh coupon. It's right on the page. I think it's like if you I think if you think it's like if you I think if you think it's like if you I think if you put in pre-order, you get 25% off the put in pre-order, you get 25% off the put in pre-order, you get 25% off the new book. new book. new book. Nice. Nice. Nice. So, again, So, again, So, again, the So, these days I the So, these days I the So, these days I I see the little bar now. I'll see you I see the little bar now. I'll see you I see the little bar now. I'll see you Oh, cool. There we go. Um Oh, cool. There we go. Um Oh, cool. There we go. Um and maybe we can paste that into uh and maybe we can paste that into uh and maybe we can paste that into uh MicroConf On Air channel in MicroConf MicroConf On Air channel in MicroConf MicroConf On Air channel in MicroConf Connect as well. If you are in MicroConf Connect as well. If you are in MicroConf Connect as well. If you are in MicroConf uh Connect, go to the MicroConf On Air uh Connect, go to the MicroConf On Air uh Connect, go to the MicroConf On Air channel and post any questions that you channel and post any questions that you channel and post any questions that you might have for Tracy, even if they might might have for Tracy, even if they might might have for Tracy, even if they might be answered in the book. Um you know, be answered in the book. Um you know, be answered in the book. Um you know, we'd love to have some interaction we'd love to have some interaction we'd love to have some interaction today. Obviously, I have questions about today. Obviously, I have questions about today. Obviously, I have questions about some things I read in the book and we'll some things I read in the book and we'll some things I read in the book and we'll start there, but producers Andrew will start there, but producers Andrew will start there, but producers Andrew will ping me as folks ask questions.

ping me as folks ask questions. ping me as folks ask questions. So, there's a couple things. One thing I So, there's a couple things. One thing I So, there's a couple things. One thing I want to start with is fonts. And to be want to start with is fonts. And to be want to start with is fonts. And to be clear, I asked you right before the um clear, I asked you right before the um clear, I asked you right before the um the you know, we went live, the you know, we went live, the you know, we went live, "Does the book focus on UX and usability "Does the book focus on UX and usability "Does the book focus on UX and usability or does it focus more on design?" And or does it focus more on design?" And or does it focus more on design?" And you said, "Much more on design, on you said, "Much more on design, on you said, "Much more on design, on making things look pretty." Why why did making things look pretty." Why why did making things look pretty." Why why did you decide to do that rather than than you decide to do that rather than than you decide to do that rather than than focus on UX in this one? focus on UX in this one? focus on UX in this one? I find It's funny when you say make I find It's funny when you say make I find It's funny when you say make things look pretty cuz I think that's things look pretty cuz I think that's things look pretty cuz I think that's like to most designers, they don't want like to most designers, they don't want like to most designers, they don't want to say that. They they And it is a true to say that. They they And it is a true to say that. They they And it is a true that user experience matters more than that user experience matters more than that user experience matters more than how things look, but I found that there how things look, but I found that there how things look, but I found that there was a lot of people who weren't was a lot of people who weren't was a lot of people who weren't designers that struggled with that part designers that struggled with that part designers that struggled with that part of things. They did just want to make of things. They did just want to make of things. They did just want to make sure that their their website was easy sure that their their website was easy sure that their their website was easy to to look at. Um and it all kind of to to look at. Um and it all kind of to to look at. Um and it all kind of flows together. Like how your website flows together. Like how your website flows together. Like how your website looks is going to help how it's um looks is going to help how it's um looks is going to help how it's um how it works, the user experience. So, how it works, the user experience. So, how it works, the user experience. So, if you're able One of the biggest if you're able One of the biggest if you're able One of the biggest principles in the book is talking about principles in the book is talking about principles in the book is talking about clutter. And clutter. And clutter. And actually, pretty much everything I go actually, pretty much everything I go actually, pretty much everything I go through in the book relates to clutter.

through in the book relates to clutter. through in the book relates to clutter. You know, the font choice can relate to You know, the font choice can relate to You know, the font choice can relate to clutter. Their color choices can relate clutter. Their color choices can relate clutter. Their color choices can relate to clutter. And if you reduce clutter, to clutter. And if you reduce clutter, to clutter. And if you reduce clutter, you can make your website A look better you can make your website A look better you can make your website A look better and then easier to find the information and then easier to find the information and then easier to find the information that the the customer needs and wants that the the customer needs and wants that the the customer needs and wants and you can kind of help push people to and you can kind of help push people to and you can kind of help push people to do the things that you want them to do. do the things that you want them to do. do the things that you want them to do. Um Um Um And so, clutter is it like it's just And so, clutter is it like it's just And so, clutter is it like it's just both like a a look make things look both like a a look make things look both like a a look make things look nicer, but also make things more usable nicer, but also make things more usable nicer, but also make things more usable in that way. Um but a lot of people are in that way. Um but a lot of people are in that way. Um but a lot of people are just like, "How do I improve my slide just like, "How do I improve my slide just like, "How do I improve my slide decks? How do I improve my landing page decks? How do I improve my landing page decks? How do I improve my landing page design?" Um and they did they do just design?" Um and they did they do just design?" Um and they did they do just want to know, "How do I make this look want to know, "How do I make this look want to know, "How do I make this look like a professional designer did it when like a professional designer did it when like a professional designer did it when I don't have the, you know, resources to I don't have the, you know, resources to I don't have the, you know, resources to hire out for it?" So, that's where that hire out for it?" So, that's where that hire out for it?" So, that's where that book comes in. I was like, "I I book comes in. I was like, "I I book comes in. I was like, "I I definitely talk about user experience. definitely talk about user experience. definitely talk about user experience. That is the most important part about a That is the most important part about a That is the most important part about a webpage webpage webpage um about website and how things work, um about website and how things work, um about website and how things work, but how things look, I think answers is but how things look, I think answers is but how things look, I think answers is is a question a lot of people have is a question a lot of people have is a question a lot of people have that's not answered by a lot of design that's not answered by a lot of design that's not answered by a lot of design articles out design articles and books articles out design articles and books articles out design articles and books out there. out there. out there. Absolutely. And there is I I think some Absolutely. And there is I I think some Absolutely. And there is I I think some people undervalue people undervalue people undervalue the the the the visual aspect of it because I know the visual aspect of it because I know the visual aspect of it because I know when I see a new web app that I've never when I see a new web app that I've never when I see a new web app that I've never heard of and just killer design, my heard of and just killer design, my heard of and just killer design, my first it's a first impression and I will first it's a first impression and I will first it's a first impression and I will get the impression of get the impression of get the impression of "Wow, these folks know what they're "Wow, these folks know what they're "Wow, these folks know what they're doing." That's what They may not, but doing." That's what They may not, but doing." That's what They may not, but that's the impression I get. I mean, you that's the impression I get. I mean, you that's the impression I get. I mean, you know, you you me and and Einar have been know, you you me and and Einar have been know, you you me and and Einar have been evaluating hundreds and hundreds of of evaluating hundreds and hundreds of of evaluating hundreds and hundreds of of applicants for a Tinyseed batch three.

applicants for a Tinyseed batch three. applicants for a Tinyseed batch three. And in the first five seconds of seeing And in the first five seconds of seeing And in the first five seconds of seeing their website, you at least get there's their website, you at least get there's their website, you at least get there's some signal there. And you dig in some signal there. And you dig in some signal there. And you dig in further, you figure out, "Oh, what's further, you figure out, "Oh, what's further, you figure out, "Oh, what's their pricing like? What does the app their pricing like? What does the app their pricing like? What does the app do?" Whatever, but the moment that you do?" Whatever, but the moment that you do?" Whatever, but the moment that you see a site, if it if it blows you away see a site, if it if it blows you away see a site, if it if it blows you away or if it at least is meets a minimum or if it at least is meets a minimum or if it at least is meets a minimum bar, it's like, "Okay, at least these bar, it's like, "Okay, at least these bar, it's like, "Okay, at least these folks know what they're doing." Some folks know what they're doing." Some folks know what they're doing." Some sites we hit, they have a great sites we hit, they have a great sites we hit, they have a great business. They you know, might be doing business. They you know, might be doing business. They you know, might be doing 15,000 a month, but you hit the site and 15,000 a month, but you hit the site and 15,000 a month, but you hit the site and it's like, "Oh, what's going on here? it's like, "Oh, what's going on here? it's like, "Oh, what's going on here? This is This looks like worse than This is This looks like worse than This is This looks like worse than Craigslist." You know, it's like a late Craigslist." You know, it's like a late Craigslist." You know, it's like a late '90s site. And I always have to check '90s site. And I always have to check '90s site. And I always have to check myself and and think, "Well, so they're myself and and think, "Well, so they're myself and and think, "Well, so they're doing something right here cuz they doing something right here cuz they doing something right here cuz they built a great business, but um I do built a great business, but um I do built a great business, but um I do think that hitting that minimum bar is think that hitting that minimum bar is think that hitting that minimum bar is really helpful for potential customers." really helpful for potential customers." really helpful for potential customers." When they hit your website, if they When they hit your website, if they When they hit your website, if they think you're legit and professional, think you're legit and professional, think you're legit and professional, then they're going to be more likely to then they're going to be more likely to then they're going to be more likely to to give you the benefit of the doubt. to give you the benefit of the doubt. to give you the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, and a lot of founders, they think Yeah, and a lot of founders, they think Yeah, and a lot of founders, they think that means that they need to hire out that means that they need to hire out that means that they need to hire out for a designer, which is a whole process for a designer, which is a whole process for a designer, which is a whole process of contracts and revisions and of contracts and revisions and of contracts and revisions and everything like that. And I find that everything like that. And I find that everything like that. And I find that when a founder has those base when a founder has those base when a founder has those base fundamentals, like they do know just fundamentals, like they do know just fundamentals, like they do know just enough to be dangerous and they can get enough to be dangerous and they can get enough to be dangerous and they can get pages out and updates to their app out pages out and updates to their app out pages out and updates to their app out as fast as possible, you know, not as fast as possible, you know, not as fast as possible, you know, not having to go out to a contractor and having to go out to a contractor and having to go out to a contractor and they still look good, then they can they still look good, then they can they still look good, then they can execute much faster.

execute much faster. execute much faster. Exactly. And that's something yeah, I've Exactly. And that's something yeah, I've Exactly. And that's something yeah, I've hired designers um quite a bit, but in hired designers um quite a bit, but in hired designers um quite a bit, but in early in my career when I was, you know, early in my career when I was, you know, early in my career when I was, you know, moving from developer to entrepreneur, I moving from developer to entrepreneur, I moving from developer to entrepreneur, I had to put landing pages together had to put landing pages together had to put landing pages together without any any assistance. And so, I without any any assistance. And so, I without any any assistance. And so, I needed at least some fundamentals. I needed at least some fundamentals. I needed at least some fundamentals. I needed that 80/20. And even like when we needed that 80/20. And even like when we needed that 80/20. And even like when we launched Tinyseed, was it two and a half launched Tinyseed, was it two and a half launched Tinyseed, was it two and a half years ago? years ago? years ago? Overnight, I just put up a a landing Overnight, I just put up a a landing Overnight, I just put up a a landing page from Leadpages and I needed it to page from Leadpages and I needed it to page from Leadpages and I needed it to make make it look good and the template make make it look good and the template make make it look good and the template looked okay, but some of the fundamental looked okay, but some of the fundamental looked okay, but some of the fundamental stuff you talk about in your book are stuff you talk about in your book are stuff you talk about in your book are things that I had picked up and read things that I had picked up and read things that I had picked up and read about years ago and I think they're about years ago and I think they're about years ago and I think they're super helpful for folks who super helpful for folks who super helpful for folks who I have kids yelling in the background. I have kids yelling in the background. I have kids yelling in the background. It's I'm just going, but It's I'm just going, but It's I'm just going, but I'm sure you can hear them. But it's I'm sure you can hear them. But it's I'm sure you can hear them. But it's things like I Let's talk through a few things like I Let's talk through a few things like I Let's talk through a few of these things. So, clutter was is a of these things. So, clutter was is a of these things. So, clutter was is a big one and I think that is probably the big one and I think that is probably the big one and I think that is probably the number one mistake I see um lay people, number one mistake I see um lay people, number one mistake I see um lay people, you know, make, non-designers make. Um you know, make, non-designers make. Um you know, make, non-designers make. Um You talk about using a grid. I had never You talk about using a grid. I had never You talk about using a grid. I had never heard of that before I started talking heard of that before I started talking heard of that before I started talking to a photographer friend of mine who was to a photographer friend of mine who was to a photographer friend of mine who was like, "I break, you know, the camera like, "I break, you know, the camera like, "I break, you know, the camera frame up into a grid." And then they frame up into a grid." And then they frame up into a grid." And then they said, "Yeah, it's a design concept." Do said, "Yeah, it's a design concept." Do said, "Yeah, it's a design concept." Do you want to talk people through how you you want to talk people through how you you want to talk people through how you might use a grid in in design?

might use a grid in in design? might use a grid in in design? Yeah, a lot of people don't realize Yeah, a lot of people don't realize Yeah, a lot of people don't realize they're using grids if they're already they're using grids if they're already they're using grids if they're already using a CSS framework cuz that's usually using a CSS framework cuz that's usually using a CSS framework cuz that's usually built in. So, things like Bootstrap and built in. So, things like Bootstrap and built in. So, things like Bootstrap and Skeleton, these other frameworks will Skeleton, these other frameworks will Skeleton, these other frameworks will help align all of your your objects into help align all of your your objects into help align all of your your objects into a grid and it kind of helps free flow a grid and it kind of helps free flow a grid and it kind of helps free flow things. things. things. Um so, it's usually built into a lot of Um so, it's usually built into a lot of Um so, it's usually built into a lot of CSS frameworks. Um CSS makes it really CSS frameworks. Um CSS makes it really CSS frameworks. Um CSS makes it really easy to kind of align to the grid, but easy to kind of align to the grid, but easy to kind of align to the grid, but this also applies if you're doing this also applies if you're doing this also applies if you're doing something like working on a slide. Um something like working on a slide. Um something like working on a slide. Um and basically what it is is that when and basically what it is is that when and basically what it is is that when you have information, like a lot of you have information, like a lot of you have information, like a lot of different chunks of information on a different chunks of information on a different chunks of information on a page and they might be a little bit page and they might be a little bit page and they might be a little bit offset from each from each other. Um if offset from each from each other. Um if offset from each from each other. Um if they're not aligned to like a vertical they're not aligned to like a vertical they're not aligned to like a vertical column, those little offsets are going column, those little offsets are going column, those little offsets are going to add to that feeling of clutter. It's to add to that feeling of clutter. It's to add to that feeling of clutter. It's going to add this like a little feeling going to add this like a little feeling going to add this like a little feeling of like unease, this like things aren't of like unease, this like things aren't of like unease, this like things aren't lined up, so this looks a little bit lined up, so this looks a little bit lined up, so this looks a little bit weird. And you might be thinking, like a weird. And you might be thinking, like a weird. And you might be thinking, like a lot of people think like, "Oh, it's lot of people think like, "Oh, it's lot of people think like, "Oh, it's close enough." But, it's like that close enough." But, it's like that close enough." But, it's like that unconscious unconscious unconscious uh you can kind of unconsciously feel uh you can kind of unconsciously feel uh you can kind of unconsciously feel that things something should be lined up that things something should be lined up that things something should be lined up and they aren't and it kind of leads us and they aren't and it kind of leads us and they aren't and it kind of leads us in comfortableness and that's not in comfortableness and that's not in comfortableness and that's not something you really want in a design.

something you really want in a design. something you really want in a design. So, when you like again, web pages and So, when you like again, web pages and So, when you like again, web pages and Bootstrap and everything thankfully take Bootstrap and everything thankfully take Bootstrap and everything thankfully take this away where if you have like a this away where if you have like a this away where if you have like a three-column grid, you know, then three-column grid, you know, then three-column grid, you know, then usually things are all lining up on the usually things are all lining up on the usually things are all lining up on the same vertical axis. Uh but this is also same vertical axis. Uh but this is also same vertical axis. Uh but this is also something you want to pay attention to something you want to pay attention to something you want to pay attention to when you're doing something that's when you're doing something that's when you're doing something that's outside of web design. You know, if you outside of web design. You know, if you outside of web design. You know, if you have a chunk at the top and a chunk at have a chunk at the top and a chunk at have a chunk at the top and a chunk at the bottom, you know, just make sure the bottom, you know, just make sure the bottom, you know, just make sure that they're, you know, if they're close that they're, you know, if they're close that they're, you know, if they're close enough, just move them over into that enough, just move them over into that enough, just move them over into that same axis and it's going to kind of same axis and it's going to kind of same axis and it's going to kind of make the design more cohesive and make make the design more cohesive and make make the design more cohesive and make it feel a little bit more professional it feel a little bit more professional it feel a little bit more professional on at a probably an unconscious level, a on at a probably an unconscious level, a on at a probably an unconscious level, a conscious level, definitely an conscious level, definitely an conscious level, definitely an unconscious level. unconscious level. unconscious level. Very good. We have a question from Very good. We have a question from Very good. We have a question from YouTube from Nitin. He says, YouTube from Nitin. He says, YouTube from Nitin. He says, "Too many cooks spoil the broth. Do too "Too many cooks spoil the broth. Do too "Too many cooks spoil the broth. Do too many designers spoil the design, too?" many designers spoil the design, too?" many designers spoil the design, too?" What's your opinion on that, Tracy? What's your opinion on that, Tracy? What's your opinion on that, Tracy? Ooh, that's a good question. I haven't Ooh, that's a good question. I haven't Ooh, that's a good question. I haven't worked on a multi-design team in a worked on a multi-design team in a worked on a multi-design team in a while. I'm usually the one in charge. while. I'm usually the one in charge. while. I'm usually the one in charge. I usually just like for for TinySeed, I I usually just like for for TinySeed, I I usually just like for for TinySeed, I just tell you what what's what we should just tell you what what's what we should just tell you what what's what we should do.

do. do. This is what we're doing. Yeah. This is what we're doing. Yeah. This is what we're doing. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, that's the hard part about design is So, that's the hard part about design is So, that's the hard part about design is that the design that the design that the design as compared to say like coding or as compared to say like coding or as compared to say like coding or whatnot is so like whatnot is so like whatnot is so like qualitative. It's a lot of it opinions, qualitative. It's a lot of it opinions, qualitative. It's a lot of it opinions, a lot of people saying, "Oh, this looks a lot of people saying, "Oh, this looks a lot of people saying, "Oh, this looks better than this other thing." A lot of better than this other thing." A lot of better than this other thing." A lot of people fighting over it. And that's when people fighting over it. And that's when people fighting over it. And that's when you should just go back down to you should just go back down to you should just go back down to uh metrics and then you can like if you uh metrics and then you can like if you uh metrics and then you can like if you have a conflict between two designs have a conflict between two designs have a conflict between two designs between two designers and you're still between two designers and you're still between two designers and you're still hitting all those marks, you know that hitting all those marks, you know that hitting all those marks, you know that it's it's it's uh the user experience is good, the uh the user experience is good, the uh the user experience is good, the people are are achieving what they need people are are achieving what they need people are are achieving what they need to achieve in whatever design it is and to achieve in whatever design it is and to achieve in whatever design it is and then it's just a conflict between two then it's just a conflict between two then it's just a conflict between two designers in terms of what they feel it designers in terms of what they feel it designers in terms of what they feel it should look like, then you can fall back should look like, then you can fall back should look like, then you can fall back onto data. You can start testing those onto data. You can start testing those onto data. You can start testing those designs. designs. designs. Um So, that's usually what I say when Um So, that's usually what I say when Um So, that's usually what I say when there's like too many designers, too there's like too many designers, too there's like too many designers, too many people working on something. Um in many people working on something. Um in many people working on something. Um in general though, I think general though, I think general though, I think uh uh uh I feel like I feel like I feel like you know, it shouldn't be like we you know, it shouldn't be like we you know, it shouldn't be like we shouldn't like not hire multiple shouldn't like not hire multiple shouldn't like not hire multiple designers. I think designers generally designers. I think designers generally designers. I think designers generally work really well together and hopefully work really well together and hopefully work really well together and hopefully we'll have like a good idea and again, we'll have like a good idea and again, we'll have like a good idea and again, my book teaches how to make things look my book teaches how to make things look my book teaches how to make things look good, but it is more important how good, but it is more important how good, but it is more important how things work and those designers can work things work and those designers can work things work and those designers can work together to make sure that user together to make sure that user together to make sure that user experience, usability, the you know, all experience, usability, the you know, all experience, usability, the you know, all the things that you need for a well the things that you need for a well the things that you need for a well uh a good working design are in place.

uh a good working design are in place. uh a good working design are in place. Um and then it's just arguing over Um and then it's just arguing over Um and then it's just arguing over aesthetics. aesthetics. aesthetics. Yeah. And I would I would agree with Yeah. And I would I would agree with Yeah. And I would I would agree with you. Um I I think it really depends like you. Um I I think it really depends like you. Um I I think it really depends like do too many product designers or too do too many product designers or too do too many product designers or too many co-founders, many co-founders, many co-founders, you know, ruin the design, so to speak, you know, ruin the design, so to speak, you know, ruin the design, so to speak, of the company or of the product. And of the company or of the product. And of the company or of the product. And it's like it depends. It depends on how it's like it depends. It depends on how it's like it depends. It depends on how they get along. It depends on if people they get along. It depends on if people they get along. It depends on if people are are married to their ideas or want are are married to their ideas or want are are married to their ideas or want to truly seek the best idea. So, I don't to truly seek the best idea. So, I don't to truly seek the best idea. So, I don't think it's a matter of it being too many think it's a matter of it being too many think it's a matter of it being too many or too few. I think it's a matter of or too few. I think it's a matter of or too few. I think it's a matter of personality types. I used to say all the personality types. I used to say all the personality types. I used to say all the time at at Drip um when we'd have four time at at Drip um when we'd have four time at at Drip um when we'd have four or five of us discussing a feature or or five of us discussing a feature or or five of us discussing a feature or discussing what to build next and I discussing what to build next and I discussing what to build next and I would start the meeting by saying, would start the meeting by saying, would start the meeting by saying, "We don't care whose idea any of this "We don't care whose idea any of this "We don't care whose idea any of this is. We want the best ideas and we want is. We want the best ideas and we want is. We want the best ideas and we want the best um the best um the best um we want the best results out of this. we want the best results out of this. we want the best results out of this. So, let's let's go with the smart So, let's let's go with the smart So, let's let's go with the smart choice, not the ego choice, you know?" choice, not the ego choice, you know?" choice, not the ego choice, you know?" And that I think is is relevant for And that I think is is relevant for And that I think is is relevant for product design, company design, and of product design, company design, and of product design, company design, and of course people. course people. course people. Mhm. So, Mhm. So, Mhm. So, let's talk about fonts a little bit. let's talk about fonts a little bit. let's talk about fonts a little bit. What elements should people consider What elements should people consider What elements should people consider when making a choice about fonts? Cuz when making a choice about fonts? Cuz when making a choice about fonts? Cuz that is I have I know so little about that is I have I know so little about that is I have I know so little about fonts and even in the almost the fonts and even in the almost the fonts and even in the almost the introduction of your book, you were introduction of your book, you were introduction of your book, you were already addressing already addressing already addressing uh typefaces and fonts.

uh typefaces and fonts. uh typefaces and fonts. Yeah. I you know, that's that's one of Yeah. I you know, that's that's one of Yeah. I you know, that's that's one of those key pieces into a design that can those key pieces into a design that can those key pieces into a design that can be very overwhelming, especially I mean, be very overwhelming, especially I mean, be very overwhelming, especially I mean, you know, back in the day when the web you know, back in the day when the web you know, back in the day when the web first started, we had what, 10 different first started, we had what, 10 different first started, we had what, 10 different fonts to choose from. You had to Tahoma fonts to choose from. You had to Tahoma fonts to choose from. You had to Tahoma and Verdana and all those other ones. and Verdana and all those other ones. and Verdana and all those other ones. And so, at least you had a limited set And so, at least you had a limited set And so, at least you had a limited set in order to choose for your web design, in order to choose for your web design, in order to choose for your web design, but now you have things like Google but now you have things like Google but now you have things like Google Fonts and Adobe Typekit and and those Fonts and Adobe Typekit and and those Fonts and Adobe Typekit and and those kind of resources where you have pages kind of resources where you have pages kind of resources where you have pages upon pages upon fonts you can choose upon pages upon fonts you can choose upon pages upon fonts you can choose from. And then it gets really from. And then it gets really from. And then it gets really overwhelming cuz you want to have a overwhelming cuz you want to have a overwhelming cuz you want to have a design that has something unique, like a design that has something unique, like a design that has something unique, like a really nice-looking uh font choice really nice-looking uh font choice really nice-looking uh font choice that's readable and whatnot. And then that's readable and whatnot. And then that's readable and whatnot. And then it's just like, "Wait, there's too many it's just like, "Wait, there's too many it's just like, "Wait, there's too many choices here." choices here." choices here." So, So, So, A, I think it comes down to clutter A, I think it comes down to clutter A, I think it comes down to clutter again. Like there are cluttery fonts and again. Like there are cluttery fonts and again. Like there are cluttery fonts and there's non-cluttery fonts. There's there's non-cluttery fonts. There's there's non-cluttery fonts. There's professional designers can very they can professional designers can very they can professional designers can very they can make a cluttery, crazy display font work make a cluttery, crazy display font work make a cluttery, crazy display font work on their websites. They can they can on their websites. They can they can on their websites. They can they can they have like, you know, uh they have like, you know, uh they have like, you know, uh more skills in order to do that, but for more skills in order to do that, but for more skills in order to do that, but for beginning designers, I say just throw beginning designers, I say just throw beginning designers, I say just throw those design display skill excuse me, those design display skill excuse me, those design display skill excuse me, display fonts out the window and just display fonts out the window and just display fonts out the window and just choose something that is clean. Um I choose something that is clean. Um I choose something that is clean. Um I find that again, just reducing clutter find that again, just reducing clutter find that again, just reducing clutter is the number one thing that anyone can is the number one thing that anyone can is the number one thing that anyone can do if they want to make a website look do if they want to make a website look do if they want to make a website look better and that also applies to fonts.

better and that also applies to fonts. better and that also applies to fonts. Um and the second thing is, you know, Um and the second thing is, you know, Um and the second thing is, you know, when you're overwhelmed by the choices when you're overwhelmed by the choices when you're overwhelmed by the choices of what to what to use from Google Fonts of what to what to use from Google Fonts of what to what to use from Google Fonts or Typekit, you don't know what is a or Typekit, you don't know what is a or Typekit, you don't know what is a readable font versus the other one, readable font versus the other one, readable font versus the other one, um there are a lot of different um there are a lot of different um there are a lot of different resources online where people narrow resources online where people narrow resources online where people narrow down they like it's like the top 10 down they like it's like the top 10 down they like it's like the top 10 Google Fonts list or something like that Google Fonts list or something like that Google Fonts list or something like that or like the top 20 fonts in Typekit. And or like the top 20 fonts in Typekit. And or like the top 20 fonts in Typekit. And so, you can get this like limited set so, you can get this like limited set so, you can get this like limited set that's already been chosen by someone that's already been chosen by someone that's already been chosen by someone who has like a background design that who has like a background design that who has like a background design that says that says, you know, these are the says that says, you know, these are the says that says, you know, these are the best fonts in this like gigantic set and best fonts in this like gigantic set and best fonts in this like gigantic set and then you only have 20 to choose from for then you only have 20 to choose from for then you only have 20 to choose from for your design and you know that they're your design and you know that they're your design and you know that they're going to work well because it's already going to work well because it's already going to work well because it's already been narrowed down for you. been narrowed down for you. been narrowed down for you. And something you say again, I mean, I'm And something you say again, I mean, I'm And something you say again, I mean, I'm on I'm on page nine of your book. I have on I'm on page nine of your book. I have on I'm on page nine of your book. I have it up here and it's limit yourself to it up here and it's limit yourself to it up here and it's limit yourself to two different type I've read past that. two different type I've read past that. two different type I've read past that. I mean, I have that up on my screen, but I mean, I have that up on my screen, but I mean, I have that up on my screen, but limit yourself to two different limit yourself to two different limit yourself to two different typefaces. While you can use one typefaces. While you can use one typefaces. While you can use one typeface for your navigation and other typeface for your navigation and other typeface for your navigation and other for your text and other for your buttons for your text and other for your buttons for your text and other for your buttons and other for your headlines, it will and other for your headlines, it will and other for your headlines, it will make your design feel chaotic. Restrict make your design feel chaotic. Restrict make your design feel chaotic. Restrict the number of typefaces you use and use the number of typefaces you use and use the number of typefaces you use and use bold, italics, all caps, and other bold, italics, all caps, and other bold, italics, all caps, and other transforms to create variety and transforms to create variety and transforms to create variety and indicate emphasis. So, two two indicate emphasis. So, two two indicate emphasis. So, two two typefaces, is that your rule of thumb?

typefaces, is that your rule of thumb? typefaces, is that your rule of thumb? It is. Yeah, definitely. And again, um It is. Yeah, definitely. And again, um It is. Yeah, definitely. And again, um uh when you have like a CSS framework, uh when you have like a CSS framework, uh when you have like a CSS framework, you're able to say like heading font you're able to say like heading font you're able to say like heading font this, body font this. It does make it this, body font this. It does make it this, body font this. It does make it easier to kind of work with just like a easier to kind of work with just like a easier to kind of work with just like a limited set. This is another piece of limited set. This is another piece of limited set. This is another piece of advice again, it goes into if you're advice again, it goes into if you're advice again, it goes into if you're creating slides or you're doing creating slides or you're doing creating slides or you're doing something else that isn't web design something else that isn't web design something else that isn't web design cuz, you know, you're on you're using a cuz, you know, you're on you're using a cuz, you know, you're on you're using a what is it, Keynote and it could be like what is it, Keynote and it could be like what is it, Keynote and it could be like tempting to be like, "Oh, here, I choose tempting to be like, "Oh, here, I choose tempting to be like, "Oh, here, I choose this font for this headline and choose this font for this headline and choose this font for this headline and choose this font for these bullet points and this font for these bullet points and this font for these bullet points and use this font for the for the text." And use this font for the for the text." And use this font for the for the text." And then things can get very chaotic very then things can get very chaotic very then things can get very chaotic very quickly. And then it's just like, "Ooh, quickly. And then it's just like, "Ooh, quickly. And then it's just like, "Ooh, this is you know, chaotic, it's this is you know, chaotic, it's this is you know, chaotic, it's cluttery, it doesn't look like a good cluttery, it doesn't look like a good cluttery, it doesn't look like a good design." So, then draw it back down, try design." So, then draw it back down, try design." So, then draw it back down, try to use, you know, just a set of two, you to use, you know, just a set of two, you to use, you know, just a set of two, you know, maybe one for the headline, one know, maybe one for the headline, one know, maybe one for the headline, one for the the body text and whenever you for the the body text and whenever you for the the body text and whenever you need to have some kind of transition, need to have some kind of transition, need to have some kind of transition, some kind of like emphasis, then you can some kind of like emphasis, then you can some kind of like emphasis, then you can play around with bolding and italics um play around with bolding and italics um play around with bolding and italics um to kind of add that emphasis as you need to kind of add that emphasis as you need to kind of add that emphasis as you need it without changing the fonts and it's it without changing the fonts and it's it without changing the fonts and it's going to make your design look a lot going to make your design look a lot going to make your design look a lot nicer. nicer. nicer. Yeah, big thing I've picked up from Yeah, big thing I've picked up from Yeah, big thing I've picked up from really gifted designers that I've worked really gifted designers that I've worked really gifted designers that I've worked with over the years is that with over the years is that with over the years is that the simpler designs tend to be better.

the simpler designs tend to be better. the simpler designs tend to be better. It's not more fonts, it's fewer. It's It's not more fonts, it's fewer. It's It's not more fonts, it's fewer. It's not more what uh you know, more elements not more what uh you know, more elements not more what uh you know, more elements on the page, it's stripping them away. on the page, it's stripping them away. on the page, it's stripping them away. It's the clutter, man. I told you that's It's the clutter, man. I told you that's It's the clutter, man. I told you that's it's all about it's all about clutter it's all about it's all about clutter it's all about it's all about clutter and whatever you can do to strip it and whatever you can do to strip it and whatever you can do to strip it down. Again, there's there's experienced down. Again, there's there's experienced down. Again, there's there's experienced designers who can make clutter work and designers who can make clutter work and designers who can make clutter work and there are can be very there can be there are can be very there can be there are can be very there can be websites and designs that really work websites and designs that really work websites and designs that really work well that you would call cluttery, but well that you would call cluttery, but well that you would call cluttery, but as a beginning designer, if you wanted as a beginning designer, if you wanted as a beginning designer, if you wanted like design something from scratch, just like design something from scratch, just like design something from scratch, just go with reducing clutter as much as go with reducing clutter as much as go with reducing clutter as much as possible and it's going to get you that possible and it's going to get you that possible and it's going to get you that 80/20. 80/20. 80/20. Yeah. Do you talk at all about logo Yeah. Do you talk at all about logo Yeah. Do you talk at all about logo design in your book or do you have design in your book or do you have design in your book or do you have opinions on that? Cuz we have a question opinions on that? Cuz we have a question opinions on that? Cuz we have a question from the audience on it. I don't I do from the audience on it. I don't I do from the audience on it. I don't I do have opinions on it though. So, what is have opinions on it though. So, what is have opinions on it though. So, what is the question? the question? the question? Cool. You Cool. You Cool. You Cool if we dive in, yeah. So, it's from Cool if we dive in, yeah. So, it's from Cool if we dive in, yeah. So, it's from Justin Jackson. He says, "It feels like Justin Jackson. He says, "It feels like Justin Jackson. He says, "It feels like one place founders skimp is having a one place founders skimp is having a one place founders skimp is having a logo design. What factors should logo design. What factors should logo design. What factors should founders consider when getting a logo founders consider when getting a logo founders consider when getting a logo designed? Should they always be bespoke, designed? Should they always be bespoke, designed? Should they always be bespoke, you know, truly custom designs and you know, truly custom designs and you know, truly custom designs and what's the cost for a custom logo design what's the cost for a custom logo design what's the cost for a custom logo design generally?" We both I you and I both generally?" We both I you and I both generally?" We both I you and I both have opinions on this. I'll let you go have opinions on this. I'll let you go have opinions on this. I'll let you go first.

first. first. I mean, I feel like our opinion's going I mean, I feel like our opinion's going I mean, I feel like our opinion's going to be the same and I it's the this is my to be the same and I it's the this is my to be the same and I it's the this is my opinion that's going to get all of my uh opinion that's going to get all of my uh opinion that's going to get all of my uh colleagues back in art school yelling at colleagues back in art school yelling at colleagues back in art school yelling at me. me. me. Because I I truly believe that founders Because I I truly believe that founders Because I I truly believe that founders don't need to worry about the logo don't need to worry about the logo don't need to worry about the logo design for a while. design for a while. design for a while. Um and do not worry about it in the Um and do not worry about it in the Um and do not worry about it in the beginning stages of your business. Like beginning stages of your business. Like beginning stages of your business. Like your logo is one of those things that's your logo is one of those things that's your logo is one of those things that's not going to affect not going to affect not going to affect a lot of things. Um a lot of things. Um a lot of things. Um it's not going to affect how how you get it's not going to affect how how you get it's not going to affect how how you get to product market fit. Um so, don't to product market fit. Um so, don't to product market fit. Um so, don't worry about trying to find a designer or worry about trying to find a designer or worry about trying to find a designer or trying to spend, you know, 5K for a trying to spend, you know, 5K for a trying to spend, you know, 5K for a logo, which is probably about the going logo, which is probably about the going logo, which is probably about the going rate for like a proper proper logo. Like rate for like a proper proper logo. Like rate for like a proper proper logo. Like don't worry about that. Um don't worry about that. Um don't worry about that. Um I do recommend using things like I do recommend using things like I do recommend using things like you know, there's designers out there you know, there's designers out there you know, there's designers out there that are really good at quick creating that are really good at quick creating that are really good at quick creating quick logos like the ones we had, you quick logos like the ones we had, you quick logos like the ones we had, you know, done for MicroConf, um which is a know, done for MicroConf, um which is a know, done for MicroConf, um which is a great logo, but we didn't like do the great logo, but we didn't like do the great logo, but we didn't like do the full logo design process. And maybe full logo design process. And maybe full logo design process. And maybe that's something we'll do someday later, that's something we'll do someday later, that's something we'll do someday later, but it's not something that MicroConf but it's not something that MicroConf but it's not something that MicroConf needs to do. It's not something that needs to do. It's not something that needs to do. It's not something that most startups need to do. What you need most startups need to do. What you need most startups need to do. What you need is something that looks that kind of is something that looks that kind of is something that looks that kind of ties everything together.

ties everything together. ties everything together. Um, and you can just do that by working Um, and you can just do that by working Um, and you can just do that by working with Fiverr. You can work with um, with Fiverr. You can work with um, with Fiverr. You can work with um, other contract designers. You know, just other contract designers. You know, just other contract designers. You know, just get a a nicely formatted logo like in get a a nicely formatted logo like in get a a nicely formatted logo like in terms of the the font for your logo, uh, terms of the the font for your logo, uh, terms of the the font for your logo, uh, your your your What is it? The type Oh, What is it? The type Oh, What is it? The type Oh, I forgot what it's called. The text part I forgot what it's called. The text part I forgot what it's called. The text part of your word mark. Thank you. of your word mark. Thank you. of your word mark. Thank you. Text part of your word mark. A symbol is Text part of your word mark. A symbol is Text part of your word mark. A symbol is nice, not necessary. A symbol is nice. nice, not necessary. A symbol is nice. nice, not necessary. A symbol is nice. And um, just see what you can do for And um, just see what you can do for And um, just see what you can do for the first year of your business. And the first year of your business. And the first year of your business. And you'll feel like if you need to have you'll feel like if you need to have you'll feel like if you need to have more branding. The whole reason why more branding. The whole reason why more branding. The whole reason why logos cost $5,000 because it's not just logos cost $5,000 because it's not just logos cost $5,000 because it's not just a logo. That's the full branding process a logo. That's the full branding process a logo. That's the full branding process when you're trying to figure out how when you're trying to figure out how when you're trying to figure out how this logo is going to this logo is going to this logo is going to reflect upon all of your design reflect upon all of your design reflect upon all of your design materials and how the company is materials and how the company is materials and how the company is represented. And you're you're talking represented. And you're you're talking represented. And you're you're talking about like, how do you want to display about like, how do you want to display about like, how do you want to display yourself to customers? So, it's a lot yourself to customers? So, it's a lot yourself to customers? So, it's a lot That's a That's a $5,000 question, That's a That's a $5,000 question, That's a That's a $5,000 question, right? Is how you want to display right? Is how you want to display right? Is how you want to display yourself. Startups don't need to do yourself. Startups don't need to do yourself. Startups don't need to do that. Founders don't need to do that. that. Founders don't need to do that. that. Founders don't need to do that. You know, get something that works that You know, get something that works that You know, get something that works that you're not embarrassed about. Put it on you're not embarrassed about. Put it on you're not embarrassed about. Put it on your landing page. Um, and just roll your landing page. Um, and just roll your landing page. Um, and just roll with it. Get to product market fit. You with it. Get to product market fit. You with it. Get to product market fit. You know, and know, and know, and you can go through that whole process you can go through that whole process you can go through that whole process later, but definitely not in the later, but definitely not in the later, but definitely not in the beginning.

beginning. beginning. Yep. Now, we are of the same mind and Yep. Now, we are of the same mind and Yep. Now, we are of the same mind and and I had a bunch of small products that and I had a bunch of small products that and I had a bunch of small products that uh, uh, uh, never really had logos. It was just a never really had logos. It was just a never really had logos. It was just a font and and the word, you know, or the font and and the word, you know, or the font and and the word, you know, or the domain name. I remember the first kind domain name. I remember the first kind domain name. I remember the first kind of logo-ish thing that that we had or of logo-ish thing that that we had or of logo-ish thing that that we had or that I had was with HitTail, which was that I had was with HitTail, which was that I had was with HitTail, which was an SEO keyword SaaS. And the designer, I an SEO keyword SaaS. And the designer, I an SEO keyword SaaS. And the designer, I wanted the site redesigned and she's wanted the site redesigned and she's wanted the site redesigned and she's like, I just put a placeholder logo in like, I just put a placeholder logo in like, I just put a placeholder logo in there. And it was just the word HitTail there. And it was just the word HitTail there. And it was just the word HitTail with an arrow or something. And I was with an arrow or something. And I was with an arrow or something. And I was like, that's great. A logo. And that was like, that's great. A logo. And that was like, that's great. A logo. And that was the logo the whole time. We printed that the logo the whole time. We printed that the logo the whole time. We printed that on t-shirts. And then the next And he on t-shirts. And then the next And he on t-shirts. And then the next And he said, I'm not not a logo designer. And I said, I'm not not a logo designer. And I said, I'm not not a logo designer. And I said, you're sure good enough. When we said, you're sure good enough. When we said, you're sure good enough. When we did the Drip logo design, Derek did a did the Drip logo design, Derek did a did the Drip logo design, Derek did a similar thing. He's like, I kind of made similar thing. He's like, I kind of made similar thing. He's like, I kind of made a droplet of water. I don't know if we a droplet of water. I don't know if we a droplet of water. I don't know if we want to keep it. And I'm like, yes, we want to keep it. And I'm like, yes, we want to keep it. And I'm like, yes, we do. And that you know, that was enough. do. And that you know, that was enough. do. And that you know, that was enough. So, be again in the early days. And then So, be again in the early days. And then So, be again in the early days. And then then eventually we you know, we sold the then eventually we you know, we sold the then eventually we you know, we sold the company to to Leadpages. And yes, they company to to Leadpages. And yes, they company to to Leadpages. And yes, they did a full logo design process. And that did a full logo design process. And that did a full logo design process. And that was a rebranding process where they was a rebranding process where they was a rebranding process where they picked new colors. And you know, it was picked new colors. And you know, it was picked new colors. And you know, it was like, is is Drip more of a dolphin or a like, is is Drip more of a dolphin or a like, is is Drip more of a dolphin or a bear? I mean, literally that Those were bear? I mean, literally that Those were bear? I mean, literally that Those were the conversations that they would have.

the conversations that they would have. the conversations that they would have. And I mean, it was I'm guessing tens of And I mean, it was I'm guessing tens of And I mean, it was I'm guessing tens of thousands of dollars to go through all thousands of dollars to go through all thousands of dollars to go through all of that. It didn't just come with a of that. It didn't just come with a of that. It didn't just come with a logo. It came with this whole book that logo. It came with this whole book that logo. It came with this whole book that was the styling package and stuff. Yeah, was the styling package and stuff. Yeah, was the styling package and stuff. Yeah, the branding book. the branding book. the branding book. I put that all together. It's all the I put that all together. It's all the I put that all together. It's all the colors and the fonts and the thing and colors and the fonts and the thing and colors and the fonts and the thing and the you know, the you know, the you know, How the spacing should be. This thing How the spacing should be. This thing How the spacing should be. This thing should be away this part far apart from should be away this part far apart from should be away this part far apart from this other thing. Like it goes this other thing. Like it goes this other thing. Like it goes incredibly It goes into incredible incredibly It goes into incredible incredibly It goes into incredible amount of details. It's also what the my amount of details. It's also what the my amount of details. It's also what the my least favorite class when I was doing least favorite class when I was doing least favorite class when I was doing graphic design. graphic design. graphic design. Right. Right. So, yeah, I agree with Right. Right. So, yeah, I agree with Right. Right. So, yeah, I agree with you, too. Um, should they always be you, too. Um, should they always be you, too. Um, should they always be custom? Not in the early days. Um, like custom? Not in the early days. Um, like custom? Not in the early days. Um, like you said, we had uh, both a MicroConf you said, we had uh, both a MicroConf you said, we had uh, both a MicroConf and a TinySeed logo designed for I and a TinySeed logo designed for I and a TinySeed logo designed for I believe it was like 600 bucks a piece. believe it was like 600 bucks a piece. believe it was like 600 bucks a piece. And those were um, I mean, those were And those were um, I mean, those were And those were um, I mean, those were done in the last year or two, right? I done in the last year or two, right? I done in the last year or two, right? I mean, the MicroConf one was maybe a year mean, the MicroConf one was maybe a year mean, the MicroConf one was maybe a year ago, a little more than a year ago. And ago, a little more than a year ago. And ago, a little more than a year ago. And we had a logo before then, but it was a we had a logo before then, but it was a we had a logo before then, but it was a it was dated and it didn't look, you it was dated and it didn't look, you it was dated and it didn't look, you know, it wasn't the the optimal thing. know, it wasn't the the optimal thing. know, it wasn't the the optimal thing. Um, so anyways, and yeah, the cost of Um, so anyways, and yeah, the cost of Um, so anyways, and yeah, the cost of the logo was hard. the logo was hard. the logo was hard. I will say it was hard. We did spend a I will say it was hard. We did spend a I will say it was hard. We did spend a lot of time going forth on it. So, it's lot of time going forth on it. So, it's lot of time going forth on it. So, it's definitely Even a simple $600 logo can definitely Even a simple $600 logo can definitely Even a simple $600 logo can still be a long process.

still be a long process. still be a long process. Oh, right. Cuz we were like Oh, right. Cuz we were like Oh, right. Cuz we were like collaborating and talking about should collaborating and talking about should collaborating and talking about should it be this? And we were trying to figure it be this? And we were trying to figure it be this? And we were trying to figure out colors, too. And we were There was out colors, too. And we were There was out colors, too. And we were There was this There was a lot to it, you know. this There was a lot to it, you know. this There was a lot to it, you know. Um, and as you said, I mean, the going Um, and as you said, I mean, the going Um, and as you said, I mean, the going rate that I hear for just like a logo rate that I hear for just like a logo rate that I hear for just like a logo design from a legit logo designer is design from a legit logo designer is design from a legit logo designer is about five grand and sometimes 10 if about five grand and sometimes 10 if about five grand and sometimes 10 if they're more more premium. Um, but they're more more premium. Um, but they're more more premium. Um, but again, I don't believe I've ever paid again, I don't believe I've ever paid again, I don't believe I've ever paid more than 600. I mean, I'm just more of more than 600. I mean, I'm just more of more than 600. I mean, I'm just more of a bootstrapper. So, I I don't think I've a bootstrapper. So, I I don't think I've a bootstrapper. So, I I don't think I've ever paid more than six. Maybe maybe we ever paid more than six. Maybe maybe we ever paid more than six. Maybe maybe we did three sessions. Maybe it was like did three sessions. Maybe it was like did three sessions. Maybe it was like $900 for, you know, MicroConf and $900 for, you know, MicroConf and $900 for, you know, MicroConf and TinySeed. And um, TinySeed. And um, TinySeed. And um, I like them. I think they're good. I like them. I think they're good. I like them. I think they're good. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we aren't We're not Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we aren't We're not Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we aren't We're not in a position where we need to have that in a position where we need to have that in a position where we need to have that full branding suite with everything full branding suite with everything full branding suite with everything defined and all the rules and everything defined and all the rules and everything defined and all the rules and everything that cuz we're a very small that cuz we're a very small that cuz we're a very small organization. It's just the four of us. organization. It's just the four of us. organization. It's just the four of us. Um, and like this Um, and like this Um, and like this we we know what colors to use. We know we we know what colors to use. We know we we know what colors to use. We know what fonts to use. We know where to put what fonts to use. We know where to put what fonts to use. We know where to put the logo. Um, and we don't have a lot of the logo. Um, and we don't have a lot of the logo. Um, and we don't have a lot of rules. But if it ever got to a point, I rules. But if it ever got to a point, I rules. But if it ever got to a point, I mean, MicroConf say There's like There's mean, MicroConf say There's like There's mean, MicroConf say There's like There's probably big conferences out there that probably big conferences out there that probably big conferences out there that have done that full branding process cuz have done that full branding process cuz have done that full branding process cuz then it informs all the parts of the of then it informs all the parts of the of then it informs all the parts of the of the conference. All the posters and they the conference. All the posters and they the conference. All the posters and they get the person doing everything. So, get the person doing everything. So, get the person doing everything. So, it's never just just a logo. It would be it's never just just a logo. It would be it's never just just a logo. It would be that full rebranding process. We didn't that full rebranding process. We didn't that full rebranding process. We didn't need that. Um, and I feel like that's need that. Um, and I feel like that's need that. Um, and I feel like that's the kind of the same thing as a startup the kind of the same thing as a startup the kind of the same thing as a startup not needing that full rebranding process not needing that full rebranding process not needing that full rebranding process before their their their company really before their their their company really before their their their company really needs it.

needs it. needs it. Yeah. And I could see us doing a full I Yeah. And I could see us doing a full I Yeah. And I could see us doing a full I mean, you know, if MicroConf becomes 10 mean, you know, if MicroConf becomes 10 mean, you know, if MicroConf becomes 10 people or 20 or whatever, people or 20 or whatever, people or 20 or whatever, we probably will need more more guidance we probably will need more more guidance we probably will need more more guidance on cuz different people be putting in on cuz different people be putting in on cuz different people be putting in content up and different people be content up and different people be content up and different people be creating creating creating printed materials and t-shirts. And it's printed materials and t-shirts. And it's printed materials and t-shirts. And it's just like what you That's when you need just like what you That's when you need just like what you That's when you need the specs, right? But when it's a few, the specs, right? But when it's a few, the specs, right? But when it's a few, you know, bootstrap mostly bootstrap you know, bootstrap mostly bootstrap you know, bootstrap mostly bootstrap founders hacking away trying to trying founders hacking away trying to trying founders hacking away trying to trying to get there. to get there. to get there. Um, it's it's a little early. So, it's Um, it's it's a little early. So, it's Um, it's it's a little early. So, it's All right. Let me Let me see next All right. Let me Let me see next All right. Let me Let me see next question. No more questions from the question. No more questions from the question. No more questions from the audience yet. Okay. So, one thing I want audience yet. Okay. So, one thing I want audience yet. Okay. So, one thing I want to ask you where you look for design to ask you where you look for design to ask you where you look for design inspiration, but first, white space. inspiration, but first, white space. inspiration, but first, white space. This is the ultimate clutter reducer. In This is the ultimate clutter reducer. In This is the ultimate clutter reducer. In your words, one of the biggest mistakes your words, one of the biggest mistakes your words, one of the biggest mistakes new designers make is pushing items too new designers make is pushing items too new designers make is pushing items too close to each other. Talk briefly about close to each other. Talk briefly about close to each other. Talk briefly about white space. Then we'll talk about white space. Then we'll talk about white space. Then we'll talk about design inspiration. And then we'll wrap design inspiration. And then we'll wrap design inspiration. And then we'll wrap this amazing episode of MicroConf on this amazing episode of MicroConf on this amazing episode of MicroConf on Air. Air. Air. Yeah, well, if you think of like a Yeah, well, if you think of like a Yeah, well, if you think of like a I'm going to say a startup landing page. I'm going to say a startup landing page. I'm going to say a startup landing page. And a lot of people put a lot of And a lot of people put a lot of And a lot of people put a lot of emphasis to above the fold. And there's emphasis to above the fold. And there's emphasis to above the fold. And there's some things back You know, people say some things back You know, people say some things back You know, people say that the above the fold doesn't matter that the above the fold doesn't matter that the above the fold doesn't matter anymore. A lot of people scroll now. I anymore. A lot of people scroll now. I anymore. A lot of people scroll now. I kind of agree with that. So, I don't kind of agree with that. So, I don't kind of agree with that. So, I don't think the above the above the fold is think the above the above the fold is think the above the above the fold is like the where all your information like the where all your information like the where all your information needs to be.

needs to be. needs to be. But it is going to be your first But it is going to be your first But it is going to be your first impression. And because it's the first impression. And because it's the first impression. And because it's the first impression, the first thing people see, impression, the first thing people see, impression, the first thing people see, there's a tendency of being like, I want there's a tendency of being like, I want there's a tendency of being like, I want to have all the things in the first to have all the things in the first to have all the things in the first impression. I want to have all the most impression. I want to have all the most impression. I want to have all the most important feature points. I want to have important feature points. I want to have important feature points. I want to have the headlines. I want to have the sub the headlines. I want to have the sub the headlines. I want to have the sub headlines. I want to have a lot of headlines. I want to have a lot of headlines. I want to have a lot of content that addresses all these content that addresses all these content that addresses all these different points. I want to have the different points. I want to have the different points. I want to have the button that goes to here to here to button that goes to here to here to button that goes to here to here to here. And so, the above the fold area here. And so, the above the fold area here. And so, the above the fold area can get very busy, very cluttered very can get very busy, very cluttered very can get very busy, very cluttered very fast. And that's actually going to not fast. And that's actually going to not fast. And that's actually going to not convert as well. It's not going to work convert as well. It's not going to work convert as well. It's not going to work as well. It's going to overwhelm people. as well. It's going to overwhelm people. as well. It's going to overwhelm people. It's going to look unprofessional. It's It's going to look unprofessional. It's It's going to look unprofessional. It's going to look cluttered. And people are going to look cluttered. And people are going to look cluttered. And people are going to leave. going to leave. going to leave. So, then conversely, if you have a very So, then conversely, if you have a very So, then conversely, if you have a very simple page. And I was actually just did simple page. And I was actually just did simple page. And I was actually just did a design a design a design breakdown on Twitter recently. I should breakdown on Twitter recently. I should breakdown on Twitter recently. I should find it again. But I took um, Derek's find it again. But I took um, Derek's find it again. But I took um, Derek's Derek Reimer's SavvyCal. And I kind of Derek Reimer's SavvyCal. And I kind of Derek Reimer's SavvyCal. And I kind of pointed out all the little details he pointed out all the little details he pointed out all the little details he had in SavvyCal's um, had in SavvyCal's um, had in SavvyCal's um, landing page. It's just a gorgeous landing page. It's just a gorgeous landing page. It's just a gorgeous design. Lots of white space. Lot of design. Lots of white space. Lot of design. Lots of white space. Lot of breathing room. And so, what that does breathing room. And so, what that does breathing room. And so, what that does is that all that breathing room and is that all that breathing room and is that all that breathing room and white space then white space then white space then brings more importance to the pieces of brings more importance to the pieces of brings more importance to the pieces of information that are there. That short information that are there. That short information that are there. That short headline, sub headline, the button, a headline, sub headline, the button, a headline, sub headline, the button, a little bit of imagery. There's a logo little bit of imagery. There's a logo little bit of imagery. There's a logo whatnot. But you're not like bouncing whatnot. But you're not like bouncing whatnot. But you're not like bouncing your eye over everything. You're not your eye over everything. You're not your eye over everything. You're not like looking at a thousand different like looking at a thousand different like looking at a thousand different things. Derek is essentially through things. Derek is essentially through things. Derek is essentially through white space. And this is what white white space. And this is what white white space. And this is what white space can do. It just draws your eye to space can do. It just draws your eye to space can do. It just draws your eye to the most important things. And then you the most important things. And then you the most important things. And then you can kind of tell the story based on can kind of tell the story based on can kind of tell the story based on where those things are on the page. So, where those things are on the page. So, where those things are on the page. So, a lot of people really want to just like

a lot of people really want to just like a lot of people really want to just like keep filling in those holes, keep keep filling in those holes, keep keep filling in those holes, keep pushing things together. Um, but when pushing things together. Um, but when pushing things together. Um, but when you have that white space, it's going to you have that white space, it's going to you have that white space, it's going to look more professional. And then you can look more professional. And then you can look more professional. And then you can tell that story. tell that story. tell that story. Yes, well said. All right. We actually I Yes, well said. All right. We actually I Yes, well said. All right. We actually I I think I'm going to skip the design I think I'm going to skip the design I think I'm going to skip the design inspiration question because we have a inspiration question because we have a inspiration question because we have a question from the audience. And our question from the audience. And our question from the audience. And our asker, I don't have his name or his or asker, I don't have his name or his or asker, I don't have his name or his or her name. Uh, but they say, I find that her name. Uh, but they say, I find that her name. Uh, but they say, I find that most dev tools most dev tools most dev tools uh, most development tool screenshots of uh, most development tool screenshots of uh, most development tool screenshots of their features can be a bit busy or their features can be a bit busy or their features can be a bit busy or boring. Sometimes it's code, numbers, boring. Sometimes it's code, numbers, boring. Sometimes it's code, numbers, analytics, etc. analytics, etc. analytics, etc. Oh, it's from uh, Tony Chan of Oh, it's from uh, Tony Chan of Oh, it's from uh, Tony Chan of CloudForecast. He says, "Any design CloudForecast. He says, "Any design CloudForecast. He says, "Any design advice for dev tool SaaS of their product might not work well?" of their product might not work well?" I have some thoughts, but I'll throw it I have some thoughts, but I'll throw it I have some thoughts, but I'll throw it to you first. Can you rephrase it? I to you first. Can you rephrase it? I to you first. Can you rephrase it? I think I missed the think I missed the think I missed the the actual question. the actual question. the actual question. Yeah, it's Do you have advice for people Yeah, it's Do you have advice for people Yeah, it's Do you have advice for people building more technical um, kind of SaaS building more technical um, kind of SaaS building more technical um, kind of SaaS companies to help visualize features companies to help visualize features companies to help visualize features where a screenshot of that feature just where a screenshot of that feature just where a screenshot of that feature just doesn't work well cuz it's just a bunch doesn't work well cuz it's just a bunch doesn't work well cuz it's just a bunch of numbers. It's like a list of numbers of numbers. It's like a list of numbers of numbers. It's like a list of numbers or it's code or something, which isn't or it's code or something, which isn't or it's code or something, which isn't very visually appealing.

very visually appealing. very visually appealing. Right. So, this does get into the um, Right. So, this does get into the um, Right. So, this does get into the um, harder engineering problems area. And harder engineering problems area. And harder engineering problems area. And I'm going to call out SavvyCal again I'm going to call out SavvyCal again I'm going to call out SavvyCal again just cuz I was just looking at his just cuz I was just looking at his just cuz I was just looking at his webpage. Um, and he has a little webpage. Um, and he has a little webpage. Um, and he has a little interactive interactive interactive uh, like screenshot box where you can uh, like screenshot box where you can uh, like screenshot box where you can interact with it. And you kind of get interact with it. And you kind of get interact with it. And you kind of get this feel for how SavvyCal works because this feel for how SavvyCal works because this feel for how SavvyCal works because you can interact right on the homepage you can interact right on the homepage you can interact right on the homepage even though you're not actually inside even though you're not actually inside even though you're not actually inside the program. Um, that does take more the program. Um, that does take more the program. Um, that does take more engineering and development time because engineering and development time because engineering and development time because you have to get that, you know, all you have to get that, you know, all you have to get that, you know, all coded up and everything working well. coded up and everything working well. coded up and everything working well. But then it does give your customers But then it does give your customers But then it does give your customers that like actual experience that a that like actual experience that a that like actual experience that a screenshot wouldn't necessarily show. screenshot wouldn't necessarily show. screenshot wouldn't necessarily show. Um, so it's like what can you do with Um, so it's like what can you do with Um, so it's like what can you do with interactions? Easier might be using um, interactions? Easier might be using um, interactions? Easier might be using um, uh, GIFs where you kind of show the uh, GIFs where you kind of show the uh, GIFs where you kind of show the walk-through of how the process goes. walk-through of how the process goes. walk-through of how the process goes. Um, Um, Um, Another thing I just write it I just Another thing I just write it I just Another thing I just write it I just thought of was um, I'm not sure if thought of was um, I'm not sure if thought of was um, I'm not sure if Stripe is still doing this, but their Stripe is still doing this, but their Stripe is still doing this, but their documentation back in the day was kind documentation back in the day was kind documentation back in the day was kind of interactive where it'd say like, of interactive where it'd say like, of interactive where it'd say like, here's how you use Stripe. And then you here's how you use Stripe. And then you here's how you use Stripe. And then you can take your um, can take your um, can take your um, take the little pieces take the little pieces take the little pieces API key. API key. API key. API key and you can throw that into your API key and you can throw that into your API key and you can throw that into your terminal and run it. And it would update terminal and run it. And it would update terminal and run it. And it would update on the website and kind of show you that on the website and kind of show you that on the website and kind of show you that process as you as you go through using process as you as you go through using process as you as you go through using their API. So, again, that interactive their API. So, again, that interactive their API. So, again, that interactive feel does take more development work and feel does take more development work and feel does take more development work and more time. But it does it leads us like, more time. But it does it leads us like, more time. But it does it leads us like, "Ooh." moment where people are like, "Ooh." moment where people are like, "Ooh." moment where people are like, "Oh, this is how it actually works, you "Oh, this is how it actually works, you "Oh, this is how it actually works, you know?" It's not just like, "Oh, here's know?" It's not just like, "Oh, here's know?" It's not just like, "Oh, here's this static flat boring thing. It's this static flat boring thing. It's this static flat boring thing. It's like, okay, you get that wow moment up like, okay, you get that wow moment up like, okay, you get that wow moment up front.

front. front. Absolutely. And that's I was going to Absolutely. And that's I was going to Absolutely. And that's I was going to call out Stripe both if you way back to call out Stripe both if you way back to call out Stripe both if you way back to let's say 5 6 years ago, look at let's say 5 6 years ago, look at let's say 5 6 years ago, look at Stripe's website. Um Stripe's website. Um Stripe's website. Um Have they been around that long? I think Have they been around that long? I think Have they been around that long? I think so. They so. They so. They they always had code snippets code they always had code snippets code they always had code snippets code snippets on them and they still do. snippets on them and they still do. snippets on them and they still do. Right now, think of what Stripe is. Right now, think of what Stripe is. Right now, think of what Stripe is. Stripe is really an API with some Stripe is really an API with some Stripe is really an API with some reports built on top of it. And if you reports built on top of it. And if you reports built on top of it. And if you go to their website, above the fold, go to their website, above the fold, go to their website, above the fold, it's a headline and then it's a picture it's a headline and then it's a picture it's a headline and then it's a picture of some attractive graphs with dollar of some attractive graphs with dollar of some attractive graphs with dollar signs in them and it's like, okay, they signs in them and it's like, okay, they signs in them and it's like, okay, they process money, picture their mobile app, process money, picture their mobile app, process money, picture their mobile app, which you may or may not have. But you which you may or may not have. But you which you may or may not have. But you scroll down the page halfway and it's scroll down the page halfway and it's scroll down the page halfway and it's it's what you're talking about, Tracy, it's what you're talking about, Tracy, it's what you're talking about, Tracy, where it's this kind of an animated GIF where it's this kind of an animated GIF where it's this kind of an animated GIF type thing that is code being written type thing that is code being written type thing that is code being written into a terminal. And if I'm a developer, into a terminal. And if I'm a developer, into a terminal. And if I'm a developer, I'm instantly resonating with this. I I'm instantly resonating with this. I I'm instantly resonating with this. I don't even know node.js and this is don't even know node.js and this is don't even know node.js and this is written in node, but I'm like riveted by written in node, but I'm like riveted by written in node, but I'm like riveted by this as I'm watching it. So that's the this as I'm watching it. So that's the this as I'm watching it. So that's the kind of intro even if it's kind of intro even if it's kind of intro even if it's not fully, you know, I believe there's not fully, you know, I believe there's not fully, you know, I believe there's is like truly interactive or something. is like truly interactive or something. is like truly interactive or something. Yeah, maybe it is just a GIF, but it's Yeah, maybe it is just a GIF, but it's Yeah, maybe it is just a GIF, but it's that kind of stuff. Derek is as you that kind of stuff. Derek is as you that kind of stuff. Derek is as you called out is also really good at these called out is also really good at these called out is also really good at these things. They used to have it things. They used to have it things. They used to have it interactive. Mhm. Yes.

interactive. Mhm. Yes. interactive. Mhm. Yes. just a GIF they used to have it that just a GIF they used to have it that just a GIF they used to have it that way. But yeah, it's one of those kind of way. But yeah, it's one of those kind of way. But yeah, it's one of those kind of things where a GIF can work just as well things where a GIF can work just as well things where a GIF can work just as well as interactive and it's going to be as interactive and it's going to be as interactive and it's going to be easier to set up because then you can easier to set up because then you can easier to set up because then you can just record yourself. just record yourself. just record yourself. Yep. Yep. All right, last we're a little Yep. Yep. All right, last we're a little Yep. Yep. All right, last we're a little bit over time, but I want to get this bit over time, but I want to get this bit over time, but I want to get this question in from Justin Jackson. He question in from Justin Jackson. He question in from Justin Jackson. He says, when you're looking at a website, says, when you're looking at a website, says, when you're looking at a website, what are two to three things you always what are two to three things you always what are two to three things you always look at to evaluate how well it is look at to evaluate how well it is look at to evaluate how well it is designed? designed? designed? The headline. Like, what is the the The headline. Like, what is the the The headline. Like, what is the the piece of text at the top that tells me piece of text at the top that tells me piece of text at the top that tells me what that page is about. And I what that page is about. And I what that page is about. And I I actually talk about my book, one of I actually talk about my book, one of I actually talk about my book, one of the things that I I recommend to do the things that I I recommend to do the things that I I recommend to do it's like reduce clutter and train your it's like reduce clutter and train your it's like reduce clutter and train your design eye. Those are the two things design eye. Those are the two things design eye. Those are the two things that you can do to become a better that you can do to become a better that you can do to become a better designer. And I what I have I'm in this designer. And I what I have I'm in this designer. And I what I have I'm in this habit of always looking at web pages and habit of always looking at web pages and habit of always looking at web pages and kind of thinking critically about them kind of thinking critically about them kind of thinking critically about them because that makes me a better designer because that makes me a better designer because that makes me a better designer because I can say, all right, this because I can say, all right, this because I can say, all right, this headline, it says this. Do I think that headline, it says this. Do I think that headline, it says this. Do I think that does that work for me? Do I think that's does that work for me? Do I think that's does that work for me? Do I think that's the best headline? Why? If it does work, the best headline? Why? If it does work, the best headline? Why? If it does work, then I try to think about why is it then I try to think about why is it then I try to think about why is it working? And again, calling out Derek working? And again, calling out Derek working? And again, calling out Derek and Savvy Cal, it's the whole reason why and Savvy Cal, it's the whole reason why and Savvy Cal, it's the whole reason why I did that breakdown of Savvy Cal I did that breakdown of Savvy Cal I did that breakdown of Savvy Cal because it's kind of showing like, okay, because it's kind of showing like, okay, because it's kind of showing like, okay, you're looking at a website and then, you're looking at a website and then, you're looking at a website and then, you know, look at the headline and you you know, look at the headline and you you know, look at the headline and you can you can kind of think critically can you can kind of think critically can you can kind of think critically about the headline is doing and that's about the headline is doing and that's about the headline is doing and that's going to kind of insert that information going to kind of insert that information going to kind of insert that information in your brain so you can pull it out in your brain so you can pull it out in your brain so you can pull it out later when you're looking at your own later when you're looking at your own later when you're looking at your own designs. So like, headline is number designs. So like, headline is number designs. So like, headline is number one. The like, what is the action on the one. The like, what is the action on the one. The like, what is the action on the page? What is the CTA? What's the page? What is the CTA? What's the page? What is the CTA? What's the button? You know, what's the the thing button? You know, what's the the thing button? You know, what's the the thing that the person wants me to do? And that the person wants me to do? And that the person wants me to do? And again, think critically about that. You again, think critically about that. You again, think critically about that. You know, is the color eye-catching? Is the know, is the color eye-catching? Is the know, is the color eye-catching? Is the text on it actionable? Is it interesting

text on it actionable? Is it interesting text on it actionable? Is it interesting or is it boring or is it a robotic? or is it boring or is it a robotic? or is it boring or is it a robotic? Where is the position compared to the Where is the position compared to the Where is the position compared to the rest of the content of the page? Is it rest of the content of the page? Is it rest of the content of the page? Is it clickable? Does it feel clickable? Does clickable? Does it feel clickable? Does clickable? Does it feel clickable? Does it make me want to click on it? it make me want to click on it? it make me want to click on it? Um so that's headline, button. And the third thing I want to say is And the third thing I want to say is maybe just like the overall maybe the maybe just like the overall maybe the maybe just like the overall maybe the white space, I would say. I was I was white space, I would say. I was I was white space, I would say. I was I was going to say the overall appearance, but going to say the overall appearance, but going to say the overall appearance, but it does does come down to that white it does does come down to that white it does does come down to that white space cuz that that white space is going space cuz that that white space is going space cuz that that white space is going to lead your eye to go to those two to lead your eye to go to those two to lead your eye to go to those two important things. And um important things. And um important things. And um white space doesn't have to be white, by white space doesn't have to be white, by white space doesn't have to be white, by the way. It can be like a pattern the way. It can be like a pattern the way. It can be like a pattern background. That still counts as white background. That still counts as white background. That still counts as white space. It's just like, what's the space space. It's just like, what's the space space. It's just like, what's the space of the page that's not like immediately of the page that's not like immediately of the page that's not like immediately causing you to read or causing you to read or causing you to read or react or look at a specific image or react or look at a specific image or react or look at a specific image or writing in your product. So it could be writing in your product. So it could be writing in your product. So it could be like a design in the background. Don't like a design in the background. Don't like a design in the background. Don't think it has to be white. think it has to be white. think it has to be white. But it does tie into those those two But it does tie into those those two But it does tie into those those two important things. The what is this page important things. The what is this page important things. The what is this page about and what is it you want me to do? about and what is it you want me to do? about and what is it you want me to do? And it kind that supports those two And it kind that supports those two And it kind that supports those two first actions. All right. Amazing. Speaking of uh All right. Amazing. Speaking of uh CTAs, CTAs, CTAs, you should head to nostarch.com you should head to nostarch.com you should head to nostarch.com and look for Hello Web Design and look for Hello Web Design and look for Hello Web Design and pre-order the book. Tracy has I mean and pre-order the book. Tracy has I mean and pre-order the book. Tracy has I mean we have I I believe in this entire we have I I believe in this entire we have I I believe in this entire conversation we maybe have talked conversation we maybe have talked conversation we maybe have talked through four pages of the book. So through four pages of the book. So through four pages of the book. So there's another 150 that people can get there's another 150 that people can get there's another 150 that people can get I was like, you read the first few pages I was like, you read the first few pages I was like, you read the first few pages where I just I just took everything and where I just I just took everything and where I just I just took everything and I just shortened it to one sentence for I just shortened it to one sentence for I just shortened it to one sentence for each chapter.

each chapter. each chapter. So you can just read the first two pages So you can just read the first two pages So you can just read the first two pages and get a good idea for the book, but and get a good idea for the book, but and get a good idea for the book, but then goes into the depth into depth for then goes into the depth into depth for then goes into the depth into depth for the rest of the book. But it is really the rest of the book. But it is really the rest of the book. But it is really quite short. I don't have one anymore quite short. I don't have one anymore quite short. I don't have one anymore cuz it's self-published ones. I've given cuz it's self-published ones. I've given cuz it's self-published ones. I've given them all away at this point, but it's them all away at this point, but it's them all away at this point, but it's literally just like that big. So it's literally just like that big. So it's literally just like that big. So it's actionable and easy to read. actionable and easy to read. actionable and easy to read. Very cool. Thank you so much for joining Very cool. Thank you so much for joining Very cool. Thank you so much for joining me, Tracy. If folks want to keep up with me, Tracy. If folks want to keep up with me, Tracy. If folks want to keep up with you, you are tracymakes on Twitter. you, you are tracymakes on Twitter. you, you are tracymakes on Twitter. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Yes, indeed. As we roll out, oh, I was Yes, indeed. As we roll out, oh, I was Yes, indeed. As we roll out, oh, I was supposed to tell her a joke. All right, supposed to tell her a joke. All right, supposed to tell her a joke. All right, I'll just tell it to you. So you want to I'll just tell it to you. So you want to I'll just tell it to you. So you want to hear a joke? hear a joke? hear a joke? Parsing HTML with regex. Parsing HTML with regex. Parsing HTML with regex. That was it. That was the one. That was it. That was the one. That was it. That was the one. Um Um Um State of Independent SaaS Report is out. State of Independent SaaS Report is out. State of Independent SaaS Report is out. Head to stateofindiesaas.com if you Head to stateofindiesaas.com if you Head to stateofindiesaas.com if you haven't checked it out. haven't checked it out. haven't checked it out. And we got mentioned on the Mailchimp And we got mentioned on the Mailchimp And we got mentioned on the Mailchimp blog, one of the 27 best startup or SaaS blog, one of the 27 best startup or SaaS blog, one of the 27 best startup or SaaS conferences, which is amazing. Thank you conferences, which is amazing. Thank you conferences, which is amazing. Thank you so much to Hey and Stripe for being our so much to Hey and Stripe for being our so much to Hey and Stripe for being our headline partners again in 2021. headline partners again in 2021. headline partners again in 2021. And next week we're chatting with the And next week we're chatting with the And next week we're chatting with the hosts of the Software Social podcast, hosts of the Software Social podcast, hosts of the Software Social podcast, Michelle Hansen Michelle Hansen Michelle Hansen I guess that's not next week, that's I guess that's not next week, that's I guess that's not next week, that's March 3rd and Colleen Schnettler. So March 3rd and Colleen Schnettler. So March 3rd and Colleen Schnettler. So thank you guys so much for joining us.

thank you guys so much for joining us. thank you guys so much for joining us. See you next time.