Indicators of Product Market Fit

and we are live welcome back to and we are live welcome back to microconf microconf microconf on air it's been a been a minute every on air it's been a been a minute every on air it's been a been a minute every other week other week other week on wednesdays at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m on wednesdays at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m on wednesdays at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m pacific we live stream for about 30 pacific we live stream for about 30 pacific we live stream for about 30 minutes we cover topics related to minutes we cover topics related to minutes we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious sas building and growing ambitious sas building and growing ambitious sas startups startups startups bring us freedom and purpose and allow bring us freedom and purpose and allow bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to maintain healthy relationships us to maintain healthy relationships us to maintain healthy relationships we're back this week with some new av we're back this week with some new av we're back this week with some new av equipment i got a brand new logitech equipment i got a brand new logitech equipment i got a brand new logitech brio hd cam brio hd cam brio hd cam so uh after the other one was so uh after the other one was so uh after the other one was incompatible my dslr was incompatible incompatible my dslr was incompatible incompatible my dslr was incompatible with my new m1 mac with my new m1 mac with my new m1 mac i hope we're looking loud live and i hope we're looking loud live and i hope we're looking loud live and independent today i'm the product market independent today i'm the product market independent today i'm the product market misfit misfit misfit rob walling as always i'm your host and rob walling as always i'm your host and rob walling as always i'm your host and it's really really good to be back it's really really good to be back it's really really good to be back in front of you thanks for joining us in front of you thanks for joining us in front of you thanks for joining us today i'm going to be talking with my today i'm going to be talking with my today i'm going to be talking with my special guest marin kate special guest marin kate special guest marin kate today she's with avra talent and you may today she's with avra talent and you may today she's with avra talent and you may remember her from an episode remember her from an episode remember her from an episode of startups for the rest of us that we of startups for the rest of us that we of startups for the rest of us that we recorded boy it's gotta be close to recorded boy it's gotta be close to recorded boy it's gotta be close to two years ago now and it was uh her two years ago now and it was uh her two years ago now and it was uh her story of story of story of building virtual which was a virtual building virtual which was a virtual building virtual which was a virtual staffing agency they had staffing agency they had staffing agency they had a bunch you know a whole staff of va's a bunch you know a whole staff of va's a bunch you know a whole staff of va's that that they were building up it was a that that they were building up it was a that that they were building up it was a great startup story with a pretty sad great startup story with a pretty sad great startup story with a pretty sad ending actually and then she ending actually and then she ending actually and then she came rose like a phoenix out of that to came rose like a phoenix out of that to came rose like a phoenix out of that to start start start average talent and that's what she's average talent and that's what she's average talent and that's what she's been working on been working on been working on for the past three years she has for the past three years she has for the past three years she has bootstrapped it for three years and bootstrapped it for three years and bootstrapped it for three years and actually at this point is uh is looking actually at this point is uh is looking actually at this point is uh is looking for options for options for options to raise some funding now that she's to raise some funding now that she's to raise some funding now that she's found product found product found product market fit marin kate's been in the market fit marin kate's been in the market fit marin kate's been in the startup circles for startup circles for startup circles for quite a while and um yeah i'm excited to

quite a while and um yeah i'm excited to quite a while and um yeah i'm excited to talk to her today we're gonna talk about talk to her today we're gonna talk about talk to her today we're gonna talk about a couple things a couple things a couple things one she's taken this talent agency and one she's taken this talent agency and one she's taken this talent agency and tweaked and experimented and tweaked and experimented and tweaked and experimented and worked with the the pricing models and worked with the the pricing models and worked with the the pricing models and the the the um really the business model to find um really the business model to find um really the business model to find what you know she now feels like is his what you know she now feels like is his what you know she now feels like is his product market fit in the space and product market fit in the space and product market fit in the space and if you go to averagetalent.yeah it's if you go to averagetalent.yeah it's if you go to averagetalent.yeah it's averagetalent.com averagetalent.com averagetalent.com you can check out what they do and they you can check out what they do and they you can check out what they do and they are you know are you know are you know a recruiting they're a recruiting agency a recruiting they're a recruiting agency a recruiting they're a recruiting agency but they they have fast flexible but they they have fast flexible but they they have fast flexible support for remote friendly companies support for remote friendly companies support for remote friendly companies and they have uh they deal with it she and they have uh they deal with it she and they have uh they deal with it she said the top five percent of said the top five percent of said the top five percent of um recruiting talent in the in you know um recruiting talent in the in you know um recruiting talent in the in you know kind of kind of kind of in the us i guess so um yeah it's a in the us i guess so um yeah it's a in the us i guess so um yeah it's a really interesting story so really interesting story so really interesting story so there are questions if you have any there are questions if you have any there are questions if you have any questions about questions about questions about um you know finding product market fit um you know finding product market fit um you know finding product market fit and and how to think about that and and how to think about that and and how to think about that i'm going to start off with some of i'm going to start off with some of i'm going to start off with some of those topics and then also those topics and then also those topics and then also marin in her career has hired hundreds marin in her career has hired hundreds marin in her career has hired hundreds and hundreds of people to this point and hundreds of people to this point and hundreds of people to this point and now runs a company that is dedicated and now runs a company that is dedicated and now runs a company that is dedicated to that and so if you have any to that and so if you have any to that and so if you have any questions we'll probably be digging into questions we'll probably be digging into questions we'll probably be digging into that uh in the latter half but that uh in the latter half but that uh in the latter half but as always microconf connect.com if you as always microconf connect.com if you as always microconf connect.com if you want to ask questions it's in the want to ask questions it's in the want to ask questions it's in the microconf microconf microconf on air channel and with that let me on air channel and with that let me on air channel and with that let me welcome marin kate to the show how's it welcome marin kate to the show how's it welcome marin kate to the show how's it going going going hi thanks for having me yeah it's great hi thanks for having me yeah it's great hi thanks for having me yeah it's great to have you back nice to chat with you to have you back nice to chat with you to have you back nice to chat with you again and i think looking forward to again and i think looking forward to again and i think looking forward to meeting up at a microconf meeting up at a microconf meeting up at a microconf someday you were on the docket to speak someday you were on the docket to speak someday you were on the docket to speak in minneapolis in 2020 in minneapolis in 2020 in minneapolis in 2020 and um uh you know regrettably couldn't

and um uh you know regrettably couldn't and um uh you know regrettably couldn't have that dude to covet but have that dude to covet but have that dude to covet but hope that we're able to meet in person hope that we're able to meet in person hope that we're able to meet in person soon so soon so soon so yeah talk us through a little bit so you yeah talk us through a little bit so you yeah talk us through a little bit so you know i did my best to fumble through a know i did my best to fumble through a know i did my best to fumble through a description of of avra talon but could description of of avra talon but could description of of avra talon but could you tell you tell you tell the you know folks listening and the you know folks listening and the you know folks listening and watching right now describe it watching right now describe it watching right now describe it in your own words yeah so we like to in your own words yeah so we like to in your own words yeah so we like to think that we're kind of like think that we're kind of like think that we're kind of like uh we're offering what aws uh we're offering what aws uh we're offering what aws does for your servers we do for like we does for your servers we do for like we does for your servers we do for like we call it the talent stack call it the talent stack call it the talent stack so when a company whether it's a small so when a company whether it's a small so when a company whether it's a small company or a growing company company or a growing company company or a growing company needs to start hiring and they don't needs to start hiring and they don't needs to start hiring and they don't have have have all the resources in-house to do that all the resources in-house to do that all the resources in-house to do that which very few companies do which very few companies do which very few companies do unless they're truly massive they'll unless they're truly massive they'll unless they're truly massive they'll come to us come to us come to us and we'll connect we'll you know do an and we'll connect we'll you know do an and we'll connect we'll you know do an intake call we'll get an understanding intake call we'll get an understanding intake call we'll get an understanding of their needs of their needs of their needs we'll connect them with some dedicated we'll connect them with some dedicated we'll connect them with some dedicated uh recruiting specialists uh recruiting specialists uh recruiting specialists based specifically on what they need to based specifically on what they need to based specifically on what they need to get done whether it's building out an get done whether it's building out an get done whether it's building out an ats ats ats or hiring you know eight engineers over or hiring you know eight engineers over or hiring you know eight engineers over the next the next the next quarter and then we work with them quarter and then we work with them quarter and then we work with them um we bill by the hour similar to um we bill by the hour similar to um we bill by the hour similar to a fractional cfo firm or taught what top a fractional cfo firm or taught what top a fractional cfo firm or taught what top tell does for engineers tell does for engineers tell does for engineers and yeah we're our goal is to be fast and yeah we're our goal is to be fast and yeah we're our goal is to be fast flexible partners for mission-driven flexible partners for mission-driven flexible partners for mission-driven startups that are looking to hire remote startups that are looking to hire remote startups that are looking to hire remote friendly roles friendly roles friendly roles got it and you know when you describe it got it and you know when you describe it got it and you know when you describe it i think of it as like a talent agency or i think of it as like a talent agency or i think of it as like a talent agency or a recruiting agency that i would hire a recruiting agency that i would hire a recruiting agency that i would hire hourly to help me hourly to help me hourly to help me three years ago as you were starting three years ago as you were starting three years ago as you were starting this

this this how was it different like were you not how was it different like were you not how was it different like were you not billing hourly was it flat fee or how billing hourly was it flat fee or how billing hourly was it flat fee or how has really has really has really has you know your product market fit has you know your product market fit has you know your product market fit evolved over these three years evolved over these three years evolved over these three years yeah so after virtual um i did two yeah so after virtual um i did two yeah so after virtual um i did two operations roles operations roles operations roles and kind of got to dig in a little more and kind of got to dig in a little more and kind of got to dig in a little more on that side on that side on that side one at a company called rome which was a one at a company called rome which was a one at a company called rome which was a co-living uh co-living uh co-living uh startup which is awesome get to travel startup which is awesome get to travel startup which is awesome get to travel all over the world and see how people all over the world and see how people all over the world and see how people worked in different countries and time worked in different countries and time worked in different countries and time zones zones zones and then the other was with calm which and then the other was with calm which and then the other was with calm which is now the massive meditation app is now the massive meditation app is now the massive meditation app and community so i was there when they and community so i was there when they and community so i was there when they were maybe 12 or so people were maybe 12 or so people were maybe 12 or so people and one of the things that i realized and one of the things that i realized and one of the things that i realized that i had that i had that i had kind of failed at virtual was really kind of failed at virtual was really kind of failed at virtual was really being good at hiring my leadership team being good at hiring my leadership team being good at hiring my leadership team and and and hiring as we scaled out um so it was hiring as we scaled out um so it was hiring as we scaled out um so it was something i something i something i wanted to get better at and i decided wanted to get better at and i decided wanted to get better at and i decided the best way to do that was the best way to do that was the best way to do that was to kind of create a to kind of create a to kind of create a little agency um i knew that i could little agency um i knew that i could little agency um i knew that i could be helpful specifically with remote be helpful specifically with remote be helpful specifically with remote hiring since all my companies have been hiring since all my companies have been hiring since all my companies have been remote first remote first remote first so i hung out my little consulting so i hung out my little consulting so i hung out my little consulting shingle started helping calm out shingle started helping calm out shingle started helping calm out um and then you know started taking on um and then you know started taking on um and then you know started taking on some clients from there some clients from there some clients from there and when it was just me or when it was and when it was just me or when it was and when it was just me or when it was just the first few people just the first few people just the first few people we were doing the basic recruitment we were doing the basic recruitment we were doing the basic recruitment placement model which is placement model which is placement model which is you need to hire someone maybe their you need to hire someone maybe their you need to hire someone maybe their base salary is 100 grand base salary is 100 grand base salary is 100 grand normally the placement fee would be normally the placement fee would be normally the placement fee would be anywhere from 18 to 25 percent of that anywhere from 18 to 25 percent of that anywhere from 18 to 25 percent of that depending on depending on depending on maybe the difficulty of the role yeah so

maybe the difficulty of the role yeah so maybe the difficulty of the role yeah so like an engineer would be 25 like an engineer would be 25 like an engineer would be 25 maybe a customer support director would maybe a customer support director would maybe a customer support director would be 18 be 18 be 18 um but that was how the model started um but that was how the model started um but that was how the model started out and the reason i out and the reason i out and the reason i i fell upon that model is because i i fell upon that model is because i i fell upon that model is because i looked it to what other companies were looked it to what other companies were looked it to what other companies were doing and that's what they were doing doing and that's what they were doing doing and that's what they were doing and that seemed to be tried and trued and that seemed to be tried and trued and that seemed to be tried and trued and that's how we started out three and and that's how we started out three and and that's how we started out three and a half years ago a half years ago a half years ago and what what markers did you see that and what what markers did you see that and what what markers did you see that caused you to think i don't want to do caused you to think i don't want to do caused you to think i don't want to do that i want to change it i want to try a that i want to change it i want to try a that i want to change it i want to try a different model different model different model yeah so there's a few things um with the yeah so there's a few things um with the yeah so there's a few things um with the placement fee placement fee placement fee model uh it's very kind of feaster model uh it's very kind of feaster model uh it's very kind of feaster famine famine famine and that's because it makes it difficult and that's because it makes it difficult and that's because it makes it difficult to to to actually understand your unit economics actually understand your unit economics actually understand your unit economics and the underlying uh and the underlying uh and the underlying uh business metrics because you could get business metrics because you could get business metrics because you could get lucky and you could hire lucky and you could hire lucky and you could hire someone for a very high sal you could someone for a very high sal you could someone for a very high sal you could help a company hire someone for a very help a company hire someone for a very help a company hire someone for a very high salary high salary high salary in only a few weeks and then you'll have in only a few weeks and then you'll have in only a few weeks and then you'll have a very large profit margin on that one a very large profit margin on that one a very large profit margin on that one higher but more often than not it's higher but more often than not it's higher but more often than not it's going to take going to take going to take much longer and very often a company much longer and very often a company much longer and very often a company will change their mind they'll say hey i will change their mind they'll say hey i will change their mind they'll say hey i thought i was thought i was thought i was hiring a vp of customer success but in hiring a vp of customer success but in hiring a vp of customer success but in real life in reality i need a director real life in reality i need a director real life in reality i need a director of marketing of marketing of marketing now with traditional recruitment firms now with traditional recruitment firms now with traditional recruitment firms and agencies and agencies and agencies they will either eat that cost or they will either eat that cost or they will either eat that cost or they'll try to finagle something where they'll try to finagle something where they'll try to finagle something where like like like they get paid by the client but it never they get paid by the client but it never they get paid by the client but it never feels good like feels good like feels good like even when we were placing candidates even when we were placing candidates even when we were placing candidates that were amazing with our companies that were amazing with our companies that were amazing with our companies i knew as a founder myself that it never

i knew as a founder myself that it never i knew as a founder myself that it never felt great to like cut that big check felt great to like cut that big check felt great to like cut that big check so we spent a lot of time so we spent a lot of time so we spent a lot of time over the last two years figuring out over the last two years figuring out over the last two years figuring out what's a model what's a model what's a model that meshes with one of our core values that meshes with one of our core values that meshes with one of our core values which is that of alignment which is that of alignment which is that of alignment like how can we align everyone's like how can we align everyone's like how can we align everyone's interests towards the same thing interests towards the same thing interests towards the same thing and we came up with kind of the the and we came up with kind of the the and we came up with kind of the the simple solution of simple solution of simple solution of we just charge by the hour um we have we just charge by the hour um we have we just charge by the hour um we have five five five different types of specialists and different types of specialists and different types of specialists and depending on a company's needs we'll depending on a company's needs we'll depending on a company's needs we'll connect them with the right connect them with the right connect them with the right uh right a group of those specialists uh right a group of those specialists uh right a group of those specialists and and and on the low end like the hourly low end on the low end like the hourly low end on the low end like the hourly low end you have a recruiting coordinator you have a recruiting coordinator you have a recruiting coordinator which is like a supercharged admin they which is like a supercharged admin they which is like a supercharged admin they do amazing they handle a lot of the do amazing they handle a lot of the do amazing they handle a lot of the digital paperwork so to speak and then digital paperwork so to speak and then digital paperwork so to speak and then on the high end maybe you'll have a on the high end maybe you'll have a on the high end maybe you'll have a machine learning uh technical recruiter machine learning uh technical recruiter machine learning uh technical recruiter and that person will obviously charge and that person will obviously charge and that person will obviously charge uh the highest fee and the recruiting uh the highest fee and the recruiting uh the highest fee and the recruiting coordinator will be coordinator will be coordinator will be lower than that but instead of it's like lower than that but instead of it's like lower than that but instead of it's like it kind of came from that uh it kind of came from that uh it kind of came from that uh background and delegation i had and the background and delegation i had and the background and delegation i had and the reason that we started virtual back in reason that we started virtual back in reason that we started virtual back in the day the day the day was everyone has something where they're was everyone has something where they're was everyone has something where they're truly expert at truly expert at truly expert at and i think that more people should be and i think that more people should be and i think that more people should be spending that time spending that time spending that time in their zone of genius and that's what in their zone of genius and that's what in their zone of genius and that's what that's how the model evolved for what it that's how the model evolved for what it that's how the model evolved for what it is now is now is now right okay and so is is billing hourly right okay and so is is billing hourly right okay and so is is billing hourly for these services for these services for these services is that something that other agencies or is that something that other agencies or is that something that other agencies or professional services companies do professional services companies do professional services companies do or was that like an innovation in the

or was that like an innovation in the or was that like an innovation in the space space space so people don't do it in the recruiting so people don't do it in the recruiting so people don't do it in the recruiting space space space um at all pretty much and i outside of um at all pretty much and i outside of um at all pretty much and i outside of like rpos which are very large like rpos which are very large like rpos which are very large business outsource processing usually business outsource processing usually business outsource processing usually like you know call center somewhere like you know call center somewhere like you know call center somewhere uh but companies like top towel uh but companies like top towel uh but companies like top towel companies like pilot or air cfo companies like pilot or air cfo companies like pilot or air cfo financial services other professional financial services other professional financial services other professional services services services um would would bill by the hour or you um would would bill by the hour or you um would would bill by the hour or you think of your law firm think of your law firm think of your law firm um everybody bills by the hour and um everybody bills by the hour and um everybody bills by the hour and there's different rates depending on there's different rates depending on there's different rates depending on different different different experience and seniority and that was we experience and seniority and that was we experience and seniority and that was we took that model and we said why can't we took that model and we said why can't we took that model and we said why can't we apply this with a lot of transparency apply this with a lot of transparency apply this with a lot of transparency to um to what we're doing here in the to um to what we're doing here in the to um to what we're doing here in the recruiting industry recruiting industry recruiting industry and ever since we made that shift about and ever since we made that shift about and ever since we made that shift about a year ago it's really a year ago it's really a year ago it's really you know it was kind of a scary jump to you know it was kind of a scary jump to you know it was kind of a scary jump to make but it's really make but it's really make but it's really taken off and not only that but taken off and not only that but taken off and not only that but we found really tight product market fit we found really tight product market fit we found really tight product market fit with what we're offering right now with what we're offering right now with what we're offering right now but also we're able to model our but also we're able to model our but also we're able to model our financials financials financials and we've hit consistent profitability and we've hit consistent profitability and we've hit consistent profitability over the last 12 months which is just over the last 12 months which is just over the last 12 months which is just you know you know you know become a game changer right yeah it become a game changer right yeah it become a game changer right yeah it reminds me of the you know the realty reminds me of the you know the realty reminds me of the you know the realty industry at least in the u.s is you know industry at least in the u.s is you know industry at least in the u.s is you know you sell a house it's usually five to you sell a house it's usually five to you sell a house it's usually five to six percent and that's usually split six percent and that's usually split six percent and that's usually split between between between buyers sellers agent and buyers sellers agent and buyers sellers agent and that never really made sense to me i that never really made sense to me i that never really made sense to me i don't think it makes sense to a lot of don't think it makes sense to a lot of don't think it makes sense to a lot of people when people when people when most professional services do bill by most professional services do bill by most professional services do bill by the hour cpa is legal the hour cpa is legal the hour cpa is legal uh you know as you said um i'm one and i

uh you know as you said um i'm one and i uh you know as you said um i'm one and i feel like the feel like the feel like the real estate industry is that way because real estate industry is that way because real estate industry is that way because otherwise otherwise otherwise the i i well a realtors would have to the i i well a realtors would have to the i i well a realtors would have to track hours and then i guess you track hours and then i guess you track hours and then i guess you wouldn't know wouldn't know wouldn't know there could be an open-ended oh suddenly there could be an open-ended oh suddenly there could be an open-ended oh suddenly i owe you a hundred grand because you i owe you a hundred grand because you i owe you a hundred grand because you spent a bunch of hours you know or spent a bunch of hours you know or spent a bunch of hours you know or questioning of hours i think it questioning of hours i think it questioning of hours i think it eliminates some um eliminates some um eliminates some um potential issues there given how many potential issues there given how many potential issues there given how many realtors there are but i'm wondering realtors there are but i'm wondering realtors there are but i'm wondering like for you from a business perspective like for you from a business perspective like for you from a business perspective the alignment is there right the the alignment is there right the the alignment is there right the alignment of hey you're paying for what alignment of hey you're paying for what alignment of hey you're paying for what you're getting for and if we hire you're getting for and if we hire you're getting for and if we hire someone super fast it's less expensive someone super fast it's less expensive someone super fast it's less expensive than a flat fee and if it takes us a than a flat fee and if it takes us a than a flat fee and if it takes us a long time long time long time you know the value is is there but from you know the value is is there but from you know the value is is there but from your business your business your business perspective do you make more money or perspective do you make more money or perspective do you make more money or less money charging by the hour rather less money charging by the hour rather less money charging by the hour rather than a flat fee than a flat fee than a flat fee so i would say we so i would say we so i would say we make less um make less um make less um [Music] [Music] [Music] we make less maybe margin but we make a we make less maybe margin but we make a we make less maybe margin but we make a lot more lot more lot more money because and and again that's hard money because and and again that's hard money because and and again that's hard to even track because sometimes we would to even track because sometimes we would to even track because sometimes we would have a have a have a with agencies you'll have a margin of 80 with agencies you'll have a margin of 80 with agencies you'll have a margin of 80 and then sometimes you'll have a margin and then sometimes you'll have a margin and then sometimes you'll have a margin of like negative 10 of like negative 10 of like negative 10 right now we have a very specific margin right now we have a very specific margin right now we have a very specific margin we know every dollar we know every dollar we know every dollar that we get paid we know exactly what that we get paid we know exactly what that we get paid we know exactly what our top line margin is we know what our top line margin is we know what our top line margin is we know what we're paying our people we're paying our people we're paying our people we know what flows into you know ops we know what flows into you know ops we know what flows into you know ops marketing yada yada marketing yada yada marketing yada yada and it's kind of great because when and it's kind of great because when and it's kind of great because when clients have come back to us we've said clients have come back to us we've said clients have come back to us we've said hey we've switched to a new model hey we've switched to a new model hey we've switched to a new model they'll be like oh is this going to cost they'll be like oh is this going to cost they'll be like oh is this going to cost us more well like normally it's actually us more well like normally it's actually us more well like normally it's actually going to cost you less going to cost you less going to cost you less and it's a it's not something we

and it's a it's not something we and it's a it's not something we advertise but it's a great kind of advertise but it's a great kind of advertise but it's a great kind of moment to wow our clients where we're moment to wow our clients where we're moment to wow our clients where we're like you're going to get a ton of work like you're going to get a ton of work like you're going to get a ton of work and you know the the full service and you know the the full service and you know the the full service that we give our clients and really that we give our clients and really that we give our clients and really feeling like an feeling like an feeling like an extension of their internal talent team extension of their internal talent team extension of their internal talent team but you're actually going to pay but you're actually going to pay but you're actually going to pay less than if you were with a placement less than if you were with a placement less than if you were with a placement fee and model fee and model fee and model and it's far faster and and it's far faster and and it's far faster and less risky than if you're staffing up less risky than if you're staffing up less risky than if you're staffing up internally internally internally right do you ever have issues with a right do you ever have issues with a right do you ever have issues with a startup who comes and says startup who comes and says startup who comes and says i i want to hire you to help me but i i i want to hire you to help me but i i i want to hire you to help me but i i'm concerned like we we do have seven i'm concerned like we we do have seven i'm concerned like we we do have seven thousand dollars budgeted for this for thousand dollars budgeted for this for thousand dollars budgeted for this for this higher you know this higher you know this higher you know the cost of hiring so they basically the cost of hiring so they basically the cost of hiring so they basically have a budget in mind have a budget in mind have a budget in mind that they don't want to exceed it's not that they don't want to exceed it's not that they don't want to exceed it's not open-ended based on open-ended based on open-ended based on hey they don't have infinite amount of hey they don't have infinite amount of hey they don't have infinite amount of money how do you do are you able to work money how do you do are you able to work money how do you do are you able to work within that or within that or within that or how do you even think about that um so how do you even think about that um so how do you even think about that um so we did something in the very beginning we did something in the very beginning we did something in the very beginning because because because the company's been completely the company's been completely the company's been completely bootstrapped to this point um bootstrapped to this point um bootstrapped to this point um and in the very beginning i kind of and in the very beginning i kind of and in the very beginning i kind of decided that five thousand dollars was decided that five thousand dollars was decided that five thousand dollars was the amount of money that the amount of money that the amount of money that if someone could write a check for five if someone could write a check for five if someone could write a check for five thousand dollars from their business and thousand dollars from their business and thousand dollars from their business and be like be like be like okay whatever like i'll i'll try to okay whatever like i'll i'll try to okay whatever like i'll i'll try to solve this pain point if it didn't solve this pain point if it didn't solve this pain point if it didn't really matter to them really matter to them really matter to them um like matter like it's you know life um like matter like it's you know life um like matter like it's you know life or or or death then that usually meant that they death then that usually meant that they death then that usually meant that they had the budget that was needed had the budget that was needed had the budget that was needed to actually bring on external help with to actually bring on external help with to actually bring on external help with recruiting so ever since day one we've recruiting so ever since day one we've recruiting so ever since day one we've charged a five thousand dollar retainer charged a five thousand dollar retainer charged a five thousand dollar retainer um that retainer is held in escrow and

um that retainer is held in escrow and um that retainer is held in escrow and applied to the final invoice applied to the final invoice applied to the final invoice that is a really good divining rod of that is a really good divining rod of that is a really good divining rod of who can afford our services and who who can afford our services and who who can afford our services and who maybe should be really doing it maybe should be really doing it maybe should be really doing it themselves themselves themselves and if someone needs to do it themselves and if someone needs to do it themselves and if someone needs to do it themselves we always say hey we'd love to support we always say hey we'd love to support we always say hey we'd love to support you later we're really um you later we're really um you later we're really um we love sharing like uh kind of diy we love sharing like uh kind of diy we love sharing like uh kind of diy things i'll get on the phone with things i'll get on the phone with things i'll get on the phone with someone and give them like some high someone and give them like some high someone and give them like some high level level level but i would say we're relatively good but i would say we're relatively good but i would say we're relatively good about saying this is probably what this about saying this is probably what this about saying this is probably what this is going to cost is going to cost is going to cost we always do a compensation study at the we always do a compensation study at the we always do a compensation study at the beginning and if someone's like hey i beginning and if someone's like hey i beginning and if someone's like hey i need a director of marketing need a director of marketing need a director of marketing and the comp study comes back as 120 to and the comp study comes back as 120 to and the comp study comes back as 120 to 140 140 140 a year and they're like but i'm only a year and they're like but i'm only a year and they're like but i'm only going to pay 60 will say hey going to pay 60 will say hey going to pay 60 will say hey you might be able to find that but you might be able to find that but you might be able to find that but that's not where that's not where that's not where you know we want to set you up for you know we want to set you up for you know we want to set you up for success and ourselves of success and success and ourselves of success and success and ourselves of success and that's just not where that's just not where that's just not where we're not compete trying to compete on we're not compete trying to compete on we're not compete trying to compete on that price instead we're saying do you that price instead we're saying do you that price instead we're saying do you want the absolute best person want the absolute best person want the absolute best person we can help you find that person yeah we can help you find that person yeah we can help you find that person yeah and for for those and for for those and for for those watching and then listening to this watching and then listening to this watching and then listening to this later qualification you are doing sales later qualification you are doing sales later qualification you are doing sales qualification and you're saying if you qualification and you're saying if you qualification and you're saying if you can't write a check for five grand as a can't write a check for five grand as a can't write a check for five grand as a retainer retainer retainer and if you can't pay what we see as a and if you can't pay what we see as a and if you can't pay what we see as a good solid market salary good solid market salary good solid market salary this is just not a fit for us and anyone this is just not a fit for us and anyone this is just not a fit for us and anyone out there running out there running out there running whether you're running a sas app or you whether you're running a sas app or you whether you're running a sas app or you know an agency a product type service or know an agency a product type service or know an agency a product type service or whatever whatever whatever figure out those qualification uh uh figure out those qualification uh uh figure out those qualification uh uh requirements in essence because you want requirements in essence because you want requirements in essence because you want to filter those folks out and to filter those folks out and to filter those folks out and sometimes it's in your case mayor and sometimes it's in your case mayor and sometimes it's in your case mayor and it's um you should go do this yourself it's um you should go do this yourself it's um you should go do this yourself probably so other times it's yep because probably so other times it's yep because probably so other times it's yep because i used to run drip which is an email

i used to run drip which is an email i used to run drip which is an email service provider service provider service provider and we people come to us and they if and we people come to us and they if and we people come to us and they if they don't qualify and i'd say mailchimp they don't qualify and i'd say mailchimp they don't qualify and i'd say mailchimp is a great option for you they don't do is a great option for you they don't do is a great option for you they don't do everything we do everything we do everything we do but they're a great tool go free for but they're a great tool go free for but they're a great tool go free for 2000 you know subscribers we do the same 2000 you know subscribers we do the same 2000 you know subscribers we do the same thing we do the same thing thing we do the same thing thing we do the same thing it's like here's some job boards here's it's like here's some job boards here's it's like here's some job boards here's some blog posts we've written some blog posts we've written some blog posts we've written like you can do this yourself um it's like you can do this yourself um it's like you can do this yourself um it's funny as you know i've been funny as you know i've been funny as you know i've been building tech companies and startups and building tech companies and startups and building tech companies and startups and professional services and for the last professional services and for the last professional services and for the last 15 years 15 years 15 years and the lesson i keep learning is every and the lesson i keep learning is every and the lesson i keep learning is every time time time i go narrow and i turn people away or i go narrow and i turn people away or i go narrow and i turn people away or say no to things say no to things say no to things my businesses begin to take off and it's my businesses begin to take off and it's my businesses begin to take off and it's so so so hard to force yourself to say no hard to force yourself to say no hard to force yourself to say no especially when you're bootstrapped especially when you're bootstrapped especially when you're bootstrapped turning away money turning away clients turning away money turning away clients turning away money turning away clients every single time i make that choice i'm every single time i make that choice i'm every single time i make that choice i'm like like like why didn't i do this sooner so yeah why didn't i do this sooner so yeah why didn't i do this sooner so yeah it's a scary move and there's so there's it's a scary move and there's so there's it's a scary move and there's so there's a book i'm sure you've read it's called a book i'm sure you've read it's called a book i'm sure you've read it's called book yourself solid book yourself solid book yourself solid and he has a con i forget the author and he has a con i forget the author and he has a con i forget the author mike michael something but uh mike michael something but uh mike michael something but uh velvet rope policy is what he he and he velvet rope policy is what he he and he velvet rope policy is what he he and he wrote this book like 20 years ago this wrote this book like 20 years ago this wrote this book like 20 years ago this is when i was still doing consulting is when i was still doing consulting is when i was still doing consulting which is why i read it which is why i read it which is why i read it and he said have a wrote policy you're and he said have a wrote policy you're and he said have a wrote policy you're going to turn a lot of people away and going to turn a lot of people away and going to turn a lot of people away and again as again as again as you know to your point as a bootstrap you know to your point as a bootstrap you know to your point as a bootstrap business it's really hard and he business it's really hard and he business it's really hard and he basically spends a whole chapter two basically spends a whole chapter two basically spends a whole chapter two pounding on like pounding on like pounding on like figure out who your best clients are and figure out who your best clients are and figure out who your best clients are and only you know only let them come aboard only you know only let them come aboard only you know only let them come aboard i want to switch this up on topic a i want to switch this up on topic a i want to switch this up on topic a little bit and because we have a little bit and because we have a little bit and because we have a question from pablo in the chat question from pablo in the chat question from pablo in the chat and i want to talk a little bit about um and i want to talk a little bit about um and i want to talk a little bit about um the actual hiring process the actual hiring process the actual hiring process again you've hired a bazillion people again you've hired a bazillion people again you've hired a bazillion people you've been running you know you've been running you know you've been running you know agencies of different kind with a lot of

agencies of different kind with a lot of agencies of different kind with a lot of employees and so i know that you have employees and so i know that you have employees and so i know that you have uh just just years of knowledge on this uh just just years of knowledge on this uh just just years of knowledge on this so pablo asks so pablo asks so pablo asks does publishing a job ad anonymously does publishing a job ad anonymously does publishing a job ad anonymously lower the number of applications lower the number of applications lower the number of applications yeah absolutely so it's one of those yeah absolutely so it's one of those yeah absolutely so it's one of those things where things where things where a lot of what you want to do in a job a lot of what you want to do in a job a lot of what you want to do in a job description description description is you're selling the the right is you're selling the the right is you're selling the the right candidate on why you as the company candidate on why you as the company candidate on why you as the company and what's in it for them so if you're and what's in it for them so if you're and what's in it for them so if you're you know if you're competing just on you know if you're competing just on you know if you're competing just on maybe you can pay a lot and you're a maybe you can pay a lot and you're a maybe you can pay a lot and you're a huge company and you're just huge company and you're just huge company and you're just like if you're an ernst young and you're like if you're an ernst young and you're like if you're an ernst young and you're just like we need 500 junior analysts just like we need 500 junior analysts just like we need 500 junior analysts every month starting we're gonna they're every month starting we're gonna they're every month starting we're gonna they're gonna burn out in a year gonna burn out in a year gonna burn out in a year but that's our business model then maybe but that's our business model then maybe but that's our business model then maybe you can publish it you can publish it you can publish it anonymously if you're a mission-driven anonymously if you're a mission-driven anonymously if you're a mission-driven company if you're a startup if you're a company if you're a startup if you're a company if you're a startup if you're a small business small business small business i would say really lean into telling i would say really lean into telling i would say really lean into telling your story your story your story and to getting people emotionally and to getting people emotionally and to getting people emotionally involved um from day one involved um from day one involved um from day one yeah i think that's really good advice yeah i think that's really good advice yeah i think that's really good advice something that i always did as again you something that i always did as again you something that i always did as again you know know know a bootstrapper looking to hire folks a bootstrapper looking to hire folks a bootstrapper looking to hire folks always on a budget always looking to always on a budget always looking to always on a budget always looking to hire outside of major cities to be hire outside of major cities to be hire outside of major cities to be honest we i mean before covet that was honest we i mean before covet that was honest we i mean before covet that was our our our big advantage is that we could hire in big advantage is that we could hire in big advantage is that we could hire in lower cost areas lower cost areas lower cost areas work from anywhere um something that i work from anywhere um something that i work from anywhere um something that i really did was really did was really did was wrote the job descriptions almost as um wrote the job descriptions almost as um wrote the job descriptions almost as um it was it was almost like a letter for it was it was almost like a letter for it was it was almost like a letter for me i didn't sign it as me but it was me i didn't sign it as me but it was me i didn't sign it as me but it was like like like it would start off and it would talk it would start off and it would talk it would start off and it would talk about the the prospect themselves of

about the the prospect themselves of about the the prospect themselves of like you're like you're like you're you're an amazing developer you know i'd you're an amazing developer you know i'd you're an amazing developer you know i'd use a lot of you words and it's like use a lot of you words and it's like use a lot of you words and it's like you're the world is your oyster you can you're the world is your oyster you can you're the world is your oyster you can work anywhere why would you work here work anywhere why would you work here work anywhere why would you work here you know i'd start off almost with a you know i'd start off almost with a you know i'd start off almost with a sales job sales job sales job like a long-form sales letter but not like a long-form sales letter but not like a long-form sales letter but not you know cheesy or whatever you know cheesy or whatever you know cheesy or whatever and then i dig into the role and what i and then i dig into the role and what i and then i dig into the role and what i found was that found was that found was that it turned some people away because they it turned some people away because they it turned some people away because they would say well this isn't as would say well this isn't as would say well this isn't as professional as the target job professional as the target job professional as the target job description you know for developer description you know for developer description you know for developer job description but the people who job description but the people who job description but the people who filtered through were really interested filtered through were really interested filtered through were really interested in something different in something different in something different that it spoke they would say some i that it spoke they would say some i that it spoke they would say some i literally would get you know literally would get you know literally would get you know applications from a senior engineer applications from a senior engineer applications from a senior engineer who'd say um multiple times who'd say um multiple times who'd say um multiple times uh i wouldn't have applied but your your uh i wouldn't have applied but your your uh i wouldn't have applied but your your description was so different than description was so different than description was so different than everything else it made me curious everything else it made me curious everything else it made me curious you know and i'm curiou i'm curious how you know and i'm curiou i'm curious how you know and i'm curiou i'm curious how your thoughts on that i mean you know your thoughts on that i mean you know your thoughts on that i mean you know you you you excuse me you obviously have to keep excuse me you obviously have to keep excuse me you obviously have to keep professionalism professionalism professionalism you know in mind in terms of um uh you know in mind in terms of um uh you know in mind in terms of um uh working with clients and stuff but working with clients and stuff but working with clients and stuff but do you do you mix in humor do you mix in do you do you mix in humor do you mix in do you do you mix in humor do you mix in um um um [Music] [Music] [Music] yep so that's the real big part why we yep so that's the real big part why we yep so that's the real big part why we always get to know our clients and their always get to know our clients and their always get to know our clients and their culture because it really depends on the culture because it really depends on the culture because it really depends on the company company company if it's a professional services firm if it's a professional services firm if it's a professional services firm like we've got a few financial services like we've got a few financial services like we've got a few financial services firms firms firms they want to be more buttoned up that's they want to be more buttoned up that's they want to be more buttoned up that's part of their culture that's what part of their culture that's what part of their culture that's what they're focused on they're focused on they're focused on then we've got an amazing client called then we've got an amazing client called then we've got an amazing client called um um um how to cake it and they are a how to cake it and they are a how to cake it and they are a youtube business youtube media driven youtube business youtube media driven youtube business youtube media driven business business business that is all creating these amazing that is all creating these amazing that is all creating these amazing pastries and cakes and building pastries and cakes and building pastries and cakes and building community around that community around that community around that they have such great personality and

they have such great personality and they have such great personality and that really comes through in their job that really comes through in their job that really comes through in their job description description description and exactly what you said it attracts and exactly what you said it attracts and exactly what you said it attracts the right people some of the best job the right people some of the best job the right people some of the best job descriptions i've descriptions i've descriptions i've ever seen were written by this one ceo ever seen were written by this one ceo ever seen were written by this one ceo of a company that of a company that of a company that i think they were doing at least a i think they were doing at least a i think they were doing at least a hundred million dollars a year um in hundred million dollars a year um in hundred million dollars a year um in like the health tech space like the health tech space like the health tech space he would write the job descriptions he would write the job descriptions he would write the job descriptions himself very similar to what you said himself very similar to what you said himself very similar to what you said he would say like from the the desk he would say like from the the desk he would say like from the the desk of and then he would just go and they of and then he would just go and they of and then he would just go and they were were were like so long but people the right people like so long but people the right people like so long but people the right people were drawn to it the wrong people were were drawn to it the wrong people were were drawn to it the wrong people were like like like i don't want to work for this guy sounds i don't want to work for this guy sounds i don't want to work for this guy sounds like a you know nut case but like a you know nut case but like a you know nut case but the people that were engaged by it loved the people that were engaged by it loved the people that were engaged by it loved it so especially just considering the it so especially just considering the it so especially just considering the amount amount amount of noise out there the more that you can of noise out there the more that you can of noise out there the more that you can make your post stand out in a way that's make your post stand out in a way that's make your post stand out in a way that's authentic to your company authentic to your company authentic to your company the better and the better and the better and when you um post jobs when you um post jobs when you um post jobs on board on online job boards do you on board on online job boards do you on board on online job boards do you have kind of a one-size-fits-all have kind of a one-size-fits-all have kind of a one-size-fits-all approach of like we're always going to approach of like we're always going to approach of like we're always going to use indeed and we're always going to use use indeed and we're always going to use use indeed and we're always going to use these five remote job boards or whatever these five remote job boards or whatever these five remote job boards or whatever you know you look at the specifics of of you know you look at the specifics of of you know you look at the specifics of of company company company it depends on the company it depends on it depends on the company it depends on it depends on the company it depends on the type of role the type of role the type of role um it depends on the size and stage of um it depends on the size and stage of um it depends on the size and stage of the company the company the company are they like a venture funded company are they like a venture funded company are they like a venture funded company then angel list is often a really good then angel list is often a really good then angel list is often a really good um place to post are they um place to post are they um place to post are they more of a kind of local vibe even if more of a kind of local vibe even if more of a kind of local vibe even if it's fully it's fully it's fully remote uh built in has a variety of job remote uh built in has a variety of job remote uh built in has a variety of job boards built in austin boards built in austin boards built in austin built in brooklyn built in salt lake built in brooklyn built in salt lake built in brooklyn built in salt lake city and you post directly on that

city and you post directly on that city and you post directly on that um there's job boards that are specific um there's job boards that are specific um there's job boards that are specific to product marketers there's job boards to product marketers there's job boards to product marketers there's job boards that are specific to people that are specific to people that are specific to people with disabilities it really comes down with disabilities it really comes down with disabilities it really comes down to to to taking the culture of the company and taking the culture of the company and taking the culture of the company and then taking then taking then taking thinking about what type of person is thinking about what type of person is thinking about what type of person is going to succeed in this role going to succeed in this role going to succeed in this role and putting together um the right job and putting together um the right job and putting together um the right job descriptions from that there's some descriptions from that there's some descriptions from that there's some basics like we always post on remote.com basics like we always post on remote.com basics like we always post on remote.com because we do fully remote roles um you because we do fully remote roles um you because we do fully remote roles um you know we'll post on indeed we'll post on know we'll post on indeed we'll post on know we'll post on indeed we'll post on ziprecruiter ziprecruiter ziprecruiter but usually where we find the most but usually where we find the most but usually where we find the most unique inbound candidates unique inbound candidates unique inbound candidates is from the small job boards and is from the small job boards and is from the small job boards and the professional communities like a the professional communities like a the professional communities like a facebook group facebook group facebook group for growth marketers who are into for growth marketers who are into for growth marketers who are into like health tech or something right like health tech or something right like health tech or something right yeah that was my experience as well or yeah that was my experience as well or yeah that was my experience as well or has been my experience like uh has been my experience like uh has been my experience like uh weworkremotely.com authenticjobs.com weworkremotely.com authenticjobs.com weworkremotely.com authenticjobs.com dynamite jobs.com dynamite jobs.com dynamite jobs.com there's a fourth one but i haven't there's a fourth one but i haven't there's a fourth one but i haven't written down somewhere that's what i written down somewhere that's what i written down somewhere that's what i even for for tiny seed is even for for tiny seed is even for for tiny seed is we've only hired one person but um these we've only hired one person but um these we've only hired one person but um these are where i find are where i find are where i find you i get a lot lower volume but a lot you i get a lot lower volume but a lot you i get a lot lower volume but a lot higher quality a lot better signal to higher quality a lot better signal to higher quality a lot better signal to noise when does it make sense noise when does it make sense noise when does it make sense um so okay so when i when um so okay so when i when um so okay so when i when drip was bootstrapped we i would post drip was bootstrapped we i would post drip was bootstrapped we i would post jobs we'd get incoming resumes i'd jobs we'd get incoming resumes i'd jobs we'd get incoming resumes i'd filter through them i'd do the whole filter through them i'd do the whole filter through them i'd do the whole process we'd hire someone process we'd hire someone process we'd hire someone we got acquired we sold to leadpages in we got acquired we sold to leadpages in we got acquired we sold to leadpages in 2016 and it was a company with 38 2016 and it was a company with 38 2016 and it was a company with 38 million million million in venture capital staff of 170 an in venture capital staff of 170 an in venture capital staff of 170 an entire recruiting team that i entire recruiting team that i entire recruiting team that i that i was then able to work with and that i was then able to work with and that i was then able to work with and hand a lot of this off um except for

hand a lot of this off um except for hand a lot of this off um except for final decision making final decision making final decision making they did a lot of outbound they did all they did a lot of outbound they did all they did a lot of outbound they did all the posting and all the filtering but the posting and all the filtering but the posting and all the filtering but then they would go on linkedin then they would go on linkedin then they would go on linkedin and they would outreach directly to and they would outreach directly to and they would outreach directly to developers and and folks developers and and folks developers and and folks um when does that make sense in your um when does that make sense in your um when does that make sense in your opinion because it's something i have no opinion because it's something i have no opinion because it's something i have no i had never done and haven't done it i had never done and haven't done it i had never done and haven't done it since i mean we did it i was there for since i mean we did it i was there for since i mean we did it i was there for about 20 months after the acquisition about 20 months after the acquisition about 20 months after the acquisition and it seemed to work relatively well and it seemed to work relatively well and it seemed to work relatively well but i'm guessing there are times when but i'm guessing there are times when but i'm guessing there are times when that makes sense to do certainly if that makes sense to do certainly if that makes sense to do certainly if you're hiring like c-level candidates you're hiring like c-level candidates you're hiring like c-level candidates there are only there are only there are only you know hundreds of those in in the you know hundreds of those in in the you know hundreds of those in in the world perhaps that are really qualified world perhaps that are really qualified world perhaps that are really qualified for a sas for a sas for a sas c-level job at a venture-funded company c-level job at a venture-funded company c-level job at a venture-funded company right so they're only your pool is so right so they're only your pool is so right so they're only your pool is so small small small and people aren't aren't actually and people aren't aren't actually and people aren't aren't actually looking for the job so you have to go looking for the job so you have to go looking for the job so you have to go direct but direct but direct but aside from maybe that use case like when aside from maybe that use case like when aside from maybe that use case like when when does it make sense to do more when does it make sense to do more when does it make sense to do more outbound stuff outbound stuff outbound stuff i always think it makes sense to do both i always think it makes sense to do both i always think it makes sense to do both um as early as you can if you've got the um as early as you can if you've got the um as early as you can if you've got the bandwidth or the time bandwidth or the time bandwidth or the time um you're either going to invest time um you're either going to invest time um you're either going to invest time into it or you invest money so you're into it or you invest money so you're into it or you invest money so you're either going to hire someone like us either going to hire someone like us either going to hire someone like us or you're going to be like i'm going to or you're going to be like i'm going to or you're going to be like i'm going to carve out four hours of my day and maybe carve out four hours of my day and maybe carve out four hours of my day and maybe i'll also i'll also i'll also bring on an ea in the philippines to bring on an ea in the philippines to bring on an ea in the philippines to help me with uh you know finding that help me with uh you know finding that help me with uh you know finding that like uh searching for for profiles um like uh searching for for profiles um like uh searching for for profiles um but i really do think for most roles but i really do think for most roles but i really do think for most roles outside of very junior roles outside of very junior roles outside of very junior roles it's great to get a combination of both it's great to get a combination of both it's great to get a combination of both outbound and inbound outbound and inbound outbound and inbound um we notice especially for roles that um we notice especially for roles that um we notice especially for roles that have taken off in the broader you know have taken off in the broader you know have taken off in the broader you know product managers is a good example 10 product managers is a good example 10 product managers is a good example 10 years ago no one even knew what a years ago no one even knew what a years ago no one even knew what a product manager is now everyone from product manager is now everyone from product manager is now everyone from walmart walmart walmart to you know the hot new startup or to you know the hot new startup or to you know the hot new startup or hiring product managers hiring product managers hiring product managers so you're going to get a lot more noise

so you're going to get a lot more noise so you're going to get a lot more noise coming coming coming in an inbound funnel no matter where you in an inbound funnel no matter where you in an inbound funnel no matter where you post you really do need to also balance post you really do need to also balance post you really do need to also balance that with outbound that with outbound that with outbound the cool thing for bootstrapped or small the cool thing for bootstrapped or small the cool thing for bootstrapped or small companies is is you'll companies is is you'll companies is is you'll never ever get better response rates never ever get better response rates never ever get better response rates than when you reach out to someone as than when you reach out to someone as than when you reach out to someone as the actual founder the actual founder the actual founder um whenever that's possible it's just um whenever that's possible it's just um whenever that's possible it's just huge but at the same time if you know huge but at the same time if you know huge but at the same time if you know you're a company of 150 and you need to you're a company of 150 and you need to you're a company of 150 and you need to hire hire hire 10 engineers this quarter or something 10 engineers this quarter or something 10 engineers this quarter or something you can scale up you can scale up you can scale up outbound um it just take it's a numbers outbound um it just take it's a numbers outbound um it just take it's a numbers game game game and then the other aspect of it is at and then the other aspect of it is at and then the other aspect of it is at the same time it's also an authenticity the same time it's also an authenticity the same time it's also an authenticity game you really have to game you really have to game you really have to trust your recruiters or trust your trust your recruiters or trust your trust your recruiters or trust your recruiting partner to not only be able recruiting partner to not only be able recruiting partner to not only be able to to to um authentically represent your brand um authentically represent your brand um authentically represent your brand but not to be that spammy you know high but not to be that spammy you know high but not to be that spammy you know high insert name comma blank blank blank to insert name comma blank blank blank to insert name comma blank blank blank to actually take the time actually take the time actually take the time and effort to say hey this person might and effort to say hey this person might and effort to say hey this person might potentially be interested in this role potentially be interested in this role potentially be interested in this role they may not but just wanted to float it they may not but just wanted to float it they may not but just wanted to float it out there um that tends to get the best out there um that tends to get the best out there um that tends to get the best response from outbound response from outbound response from outbound versus the equivalent of like cold sales versus the equivalent of like cold sales versus the equivalent of like cold sales emails which everyone deletes and it's emails which everyone deletes and it's emails which everyone deletes and it's like like like that that works less and less nowadays that that works less and less nowadays that that works less and less nowadays right we have a question from the chat right we have a question from the chat right we have a question from the chat around average talent and the services around average talent and the services around average talent and the services you provide question is do you do you provide question is do you do you provide question is do you do the interviews as well or as or are the interviews as well or as or are the interviews as well or as or are those those those left to the client we do for most of our left to the client we do for most of our left to the client we do for most of our clients we do full service clients we do full service clients we do full service um it just depends on their needs but um it just depends on their needs but um it just depends on their needs but most of our clients the goal is we take

most of our clients the goal is we take most of our clients the goal is we take about 80 about 80 about 80 of the recruiting off their plate so of the recruiting off their plate so of the recruiting off their plate so they are they are they are they are only interacting with the you they are only interacting with the you they are only interacting with the you know top let's call it seven to ten know top let's call it seven to ten know top let's call it seven to ten candidates who candidates who candidates who have already passed technical or have already passed technical or have already passed technical or you know basic uh tests that are a you know basic uh tests that are a you know basic uh tests that are a culture fit that have engaged culture fit that have engaged culture fit that have engaged that have show you know that we've that have show you know that we've that have show you know that we've checked um their background and things checked um their background and things checked um their background and things like that like that like that so the big the big lift we give is we're so the big the big lift we give is we're so the big the big lift we give is we're like hey we're going to take like hey we're going to take like hey we're going to take 80 off your plate and then you're gonna 80 off your plate and then you're gonna 80 off your plate and then you're gonna run the top candidates through your run the top candidates through your run the top candidates through your internal process internal process internal process and that also saves a lot of time for and that also saves a lot of time for and that also saves a lot of time for your existing team your existing team your existing team because that's one of the biggest because that's one of the biggest because that's one of the biggest bottlenecks is if you're hiring bottlenecks is if you're hiring bottlenecks is if you're hiring you know sales people and then you're you know sales people and then you're you know sales people and then you're like hey my already super busy sales like hey my already super busy sales like hey my already super busy sales people can you carve out a few hours people can you carve out a few hours people can you carve out a few hours each week to interview these other sales each week to interview these other sales each week to interview these other sales people people people it just makes it it causes a lot of it just makes it it causes a lot of it just makes it it causes a lot of friction friction friction yeah yeah that makes sense i mean if i yeah yeah that makes sense i mean if i yeah yeah that makes sense i mean if i were to hire you know avatar to help us were to hire you know avatar to help us were to hire you know avatar to help us hire that's hire that's hire that's i would basically want the top three i would basically want the top three i would basically want the top three candidates maybe five tops so i would candidates maybe five tops so i would candidates maybe five tops so i would want want want all the filtering done of resumes i all the filtering done of resumes i all the filtering done of resumes i would want would want would want all the initial phone screens um you all the initial phone screens um you all the initial phone screens um you know and then everything else that's how know and then everything else that's how know and then everything else that's how we worked we worked we worked again at dripwid and i i struggled a bit again at dripwid and i i struggled a bit again at dripwid and i i struggled a bit because because because i had worked with recruiters 15 years i had worked with recruiters 15 years i had worked with recruiters 15 years ago ago ago and didn't like them they were it was and didn't like them they were it was and didn't like them they were it was just crappy just crappy just crappy sales people you know it just it i was sales people you know it just it i was sales people you know it just it i was kind of burned on the on the kind of burned on the on the kind of burned on the on the on the model but getting a drip um on the model but getting a drip um on the model but getting a drip um once we had people on staff who really once we had people on staff who really once we had people on staff who really really cared and the really cared and the really cared and the the incentives were aligned because they the incentives were aligned because they the incentives were aligned because they were my co-worker trying to fill

were my co-worker trying to fill were my co-worker trying to fill roles that people they were gonna work roles that people they were gonna work roles that people they were gonna work with all the incentives made sense and with all the incentives made sense and with all the incentives made sense and they weren't on the clock of like they weren't on the clock of like they weren't on the clock of like gotta go faster they were like we're gotta go faster they were like we're gotta go faster they were like we're gonna find the right person i'm not gonna find the right person i'm not gonna find the right person i'm not gonna i'm not gonna gonna i'm not gonna gonna i'm not gonna badger you into hiring someone that's badger you into hiring someone that's badger you into hiring someone that's not a fit right which is what i dealt not a fit right which is what i dealt not a fit right which is what i dealt with 15 years ago with 15 years ago with 15 years ago once that happened i realized oh i'm once that happened i realized oh i'm once that happened i realized oh i'm never going back like i never going back like i never going back like i these days i won't if we posted a job these days i won't if we posted a job these days i won't if we posted a job i'm going to hire some help i'm going to hire some help i'm going to hire some help because the amount of time that i used because the amount of time that i used because the amount of time that i used to spend to spend to spend posting to indeed and the other four or posting to indeed and the other four or posting to indeed and the other four or five job boards and then five job boards and then five job boards and then managing the inbound that you know and managing the inbound that you know and managing the inbound that you know and it just doesn't make sense is that my it just doesn't make sense is that my it just doesn't make sense is that my core competency is that my zone of core competency is that my zone of core competency is that my zone of genius no genius no genius no it's not you know but maybe maybe the it's not you know but maybe maybe the it's not you know but maybe maybe the final um final um final um pickup is one uh there's a follow-up pickup is one uh there's a follow-up pickup is one uh there's a follow-up question have you thought of question have you thought of question have you thought of standardizing on interviews so that one standardizing on interviews so that one standardizing on interviews so that one candidate doesn't have to re-interview candidate doesn't have to re-interview candidate doesn't have to re-interview for a second company yeah that's for a second company yeah that's for a second company yeah that's actually something that we actually something that we actually something that we would love to build it's kind of on the would love to build it's kind of on the would love to build it's kind of on the product roadmap product roadmap product roadmap towards end of this year beginning of towards end of this year beginning of towards end of this year beginning of next um we're going to be hiring a next um we're going to be hiring a next um we're going to be hiring a product manager and you know like our product manager and you know like our product manager and you know like our first engineer first engineer first engineer i think there's a huge opportunity i think there's a huge opportunity i think there's a huge opportunity um for that and there's also just a lot um for that and there's also just a lot um for that and there's also just a lot of burnout from great candidates of burnout from great candidates of burnout from great candidates applying applying applying over and over and over to a variety of over and over and over to a variety of over and over and over to a variety of jobs never hearing back jobs never hearing back jobs never hearing back there's just so much optimization that there's just so much optimization that there's just so much optimization that could be done that could be done that could be done that there and so i absolutely like the big there and so i absolutely like the big there and so i absolutely like the big the big vision the big vision the big vision that is very much something that i i that is very much something that i i that is very much something that i i think think think is could be a game changer in both the is could be a game changer in both the is could be a game changer in both the hiring and getting hired hiring and getting hired hiring and getting hired yep i'm right i'm watching producer yep i'm right i'm watching producer yep i'm right i'm watching producer xander type into my it's like a reverse

xander type into my it's like a reverse xander type into my it's like a reverse headhunter situation headhunter situation headhunter situation yeah i guess yeah it's kind of like yeah i guess yeah it's kind of like yeah i guess yeah it's kind of like making it a lot easier on folks right on making it a lot easier on folks right on making it a lot easier on folks right on uh on potential candidates such that uh on potential candidates such that uh on potential candidates such that they they they can do it once and get qualified a can do it once and get qualified a can do it once and get qualified a little more of a marketplace little more of a marketplace little more of a marketplace very cool this yeah this has been fun so very cool this yeah this has been fun so very cool this yeah this has been fun so folks want to keep up with you you are folks want to keep up with you you are folks want to keep up with you you are marin kate m-a-r-e-n-k-a-t-e marin kate m-a-r-e-n-k-a-t-e marin kate m-a-r-e-n-k-a-t-e on twitter and it looks like you have a on twitter and it looks like you have a on twitter and it looks like you have a sub stack how are you how long you been sub stack how are you how long you been sub stack how are you how long you been doing substance are you enjoying it doing substance are you enjoying it doing substance are you enjoying it uh yeah i mean i've been writing a uh yeah i mean i've been writing a uh yeah i mean i've been writing a newsletter for like newsletter for like newsletter for like over a decade um and i switched to over a decade um and i switched to over a decade um and i switched to subsec i don't ever plan on charging or subsec i don't ever plan on charging or subsec i don't ever plan on charging or anything but i actually just like the anything but i actually just like the anything but i actually just like the simplicity simplicity simplicity i just love like it was easier than i just love like it was easier than i just love like it was easier than using mailchimp and i was like hey using mailchimp and i was like hey using mailchimp and i was like hey this makes it easier i'm more likely to this makes it easier i'm more likely to this makes it easier i'm more likely to publish and i just kind of document publish and i just kind of document publish and i just kind of document my my startup journey in pretty my my startup journey in pretty my my startup journey in pretty you know pretty transparent ways there you know pretty transparent ways there you know pretty transparent ways there so yeah so yeah so yeah awesome so that is at let me see awesome so that is at let me see awesome so that is at let me see marinkate.substance.com if you want to marinkate.substance.com if you want to marinkate.substance.com if you want to uh follow her entrepreneurial journey uh follow her entrepreneurial journey uh follow her entrepreneurial journey and of course and of course and of course avritalent averagetalent.avra talent.com avritalent averagetalent.avra talent.com avritalent averagetalent.avra talent.com if you want to learn more maron thanks if you want to learn more maron thanks if you want to learn more maron thanks so much for joining me today so much for joining me today so much for joining me today absolutely thank you all right and thank absolutely thank you all right and thank absolutely thank you all right and thank you you you to our viewers and listeners for hanging to our viewers and listeners for hanging to our viewers and listeners for hanging out with us again today out with us again today out with us again today microcomp remote which happened just microcomp remote which happened just microcomp remote which happened just about a month ago you can still get about a month ago you can still get about a month ago you can still get access to the video recordings at access to the video recordings at access to the video recordings at microcompremote.com those cost microcompremote.com those cost microcompremote.com those cost 25 for i think it's what four or five 25 for i think it's what four or five 25 for i think it's what four or five hours of hours of hours of tasty startup goodness thank you as tasty startup goodness thank you as tasty startup goodness thank you as always to hey always to hey always to hey and stripe for being our headline

and stripe for being our headline and stripe for being our headline partners again partners again partners again in 2021 they make everything we do just in 2021 they make everything we do just in 2021 they make everything we do just a little bit easier a little bit easier a little bit easier and next time i'm speaking with anders and next time i'm speaking with anders and next time i'm speaking with anders peterson on peterson on peterson on learning before building i'll see you learning before building i'll see you learning before building i'll see you next week next week next week [Music]