From Bootstrapped to Venture Backed with Hana Mohan

and we are live and we are live welcome to today's episode microcomp on welcome to today's episode microcomp on welcome to today's episode microcomp on air i'm your host rob wellin air i'm your host rob wellin air i'm your host rob wellin every other wednesday at 1 pm eastern 10 every other wednesday at 1 pm eastern 10 every other wednesday at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m pacific we live stream for 30 a.m pacific we live stream for 30 a.m pacific we live stream for 30 minutes and we cover topics related to minutes and we cover topics related to minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious sas building and growing ambitious sas building and growing ambitious sas startups startups startups that bring us freedom and purpose and that bring us freedom and purpose and that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy allow us to value and maintain healthy allow us to value and maintain healthy relationships relationships relationships thank you so much for joining me today thank you so much for joining me today thank you so much for joining me today i'm excited i'm excited i'm excited to talk about this topic of moving from to talk about this topic of moving from to talk about this topic of moving from a bootstrap a bootstrap a bootstrap founder to getting venture funding founder to getting venture funding founder to getting venture funding uh today's guest producer xander and i uh today's guest producer xander and i uh today's guest producer xander and i have been have been have been talking to and courting to get on the talking to and courting to get on the talking to and courting to get on the show for a few months and show for a few months and show for a few months and she has just a wide breadth of she has just a wide breadth of she has just a wide breadth of experience experience experience having bootstrapped her first sas having bootstrapped her first sas having bootstrapped her first sas company it's called support b company it's called support b company it's called support b you can view that at supportbeat.com she you can view that at supportbeat.com she you can view that at supportbeat.com she bootstrapped it to 45 000 bootstrapped it to 45 000 bootstrapped it to 45 000 in mrr sport b's a ticketing system for in mrr sport b's a ticketing system for in mrr sport b's a ticketing system for collaborative collaborative collaborative customer support and she built it with a customer support and she built it with a customer support and she built it with a co-founder co-founder co-founder over the course on and off over the over the course on and off over the over the course on and off over the course of of nine years and then course of of nine years and then course of of nine years and then um exited that her stake in 2020 um exited that her stake in 2020 um exited that her stake in 2020 then she started her next startup magic then she started her next startup magic then she started her next startup magic bell bell bell magicbell.com and has raised almost magicbell.com and has raised almost magicbell.com and has raised almost two million dollars in a seed round two million dollars in a seed round two million dollars in a seed round magic bell is the embed of magic bell is the embed of magic bell is the embed of embeddable notification inbox embeddable notification inbox embeddable notification inbox for sas apps and she as part of y for sas apps and she as part of y for sas apps and she as part of y combinator combinator combinator uh let's see winter 21 uh let's see winter 21 uh let's see winter 21 winner class of 21 and was number two on winner class of 21 and was number two on winner class of 21 and was number two on product as well as having as being product as well as having as being product as well as having as being ascending more than one million ascending more than one million ascending more than one million notifications every month notifications every month notifications every month so with that let me welcome hannah mohan

so with that let me welcome hannah mohan so with that let me welcome hannah mohan to microconf on air anna thanks so much to microconf on air anna thanks so much to microconf on air anna thanks so much for joining me for joining me for joining me uh hey rawhi it's great to have you uh hey rawhi it's great to have you uh hey rawhi it's great to have you thank you sorry thank you sorry thank you sorry it's great to be here it's great i'm a it's great to be here it's great i'm a it's great to be here it's great i'm a bit nervous bit nervous bit nervous to be talking to a legend like yourself to be talking to a legend like yourself to be talking to a legend like yourself oh my goodness oh my goodness oh my goodness it's your flattery we'll get you nowhere it's your flattery we'll get you nowhere it's your flattery we'll get you nowhere hannah no it's it's really good to have hannah no it's it's really good to have hannah no it's it's really good to have you on here because um you on here because um you on here because um very few founders have bootstrapped very few founders have bootstrapped very few founders have bootstrapped experience experience experience to you know mid-five figures who then go to you know mid-five figures who then go to you know mid-five figures who then go on to raise around on to raise around on to raise around later to the extent that you have and um later to the extent that you have and um later to the extent that you have and um i i well i've bootstrapped several i i well i've bootstrapped several i i well i've bootstrapped several things and then exited and things and then exited and things and then exited and and worked within a venture-funded and worked within a venture-funded and worked within a venture-funded company so i know company so i know company so i know i know both sides of it i still haven't i know both sides of it i still haven't i know both sides of it i still haven't you know done all the things you've done you know done all the things you've done you know done all the things you've done so i think there's a lot to dig into so i think there's a lot to dig into so i think there's a lot to dig into today and i'm excited about it today and i'm excited about it today and i'm excited about it as a rem as a reminder if you're in as a rem as a reminder if you're in as a rem as a reminder if you're in micro conf micro conf micro conf in the microconf on our channel please in the microconf on our channel please in the microconf on our channel please feel free to feel free to feel free to start asking questions uh i have a few start asking questions uh i have a few start asking questions uh i have a few cued up but cued up but cued up but um given hana's experience i i think um given hana's experience i i think um given hana's experience i i think that that that there's a lot we can dig into today so i there's a lot we can dig into today so i there's a lot we can dig into today so i think to kick us off i'm curious you think to kick us off i'm curious you think to kick us off i'm curious you know know know you've been on both sides of this and you've been on both sides of this and you've been on both sides of this and you know i view funding as a continuum i you know i view funding as a continuum i you know i view funding as a continuum i think a lot of people know it's it's think a lot of people know it's it's think a lot of people know it's it's used to just be bootstrapped and venture used to just be bootstrapped and venture used to just be bootstrapped and venture funded but now there's there's funded but now there's there's funded but now there's there's angel networks there's tiny seed so it angel networks there's tiny seed so it angel networks there's tiny seed so it really is like this continue really is like this continue really is like this continue continuum of raising but in your continuum of raising but in your continuum of raising but in your experience with experience with experience with um support b and then magic bell like um support b and then magic bell like um support b and then magic bell like what have been some of the biggest what have been some of the biggest what have been some of the biggest differences between differences between differences between bootstrapping and and you know building bootstrapping and and you know building bootstrapping and and you know building starting to build a company starting to build a company starting to build a company uh that has so much uh funding

uh that has so much uh funding uh that has so much uh funding sure um so obviously as you know like sure um so obviously as you know like sure um so obviously as you know like it's it's it's more similar than not right like so it's more similar than not right like so it's more similar than not right like so it's all the same sort of struggle and it's all the same sort of struggle and it's all the same sort of struggle and it's all the same sort of uncertainty that all the same sort of uncertainty that all the same sort of uncertainty that you have to go through so you have to go through so you have to go through so obviously funding doesn't change that obviously funding doesn't change that obviously funding doesn't change that but i do think that but i do think that but i do think that it kind of enables you to think a little it kind of enables you to think a little it kind of enables you to think a little bit more long term bit more long term bit more long term early on itself so you're not just early on itself so you're not just early on itself so you're not just trying to survive you're not trying to survive you're not trying to survive you're not um trying to just get the next customer um trying to just get the next customer um trying to just get the next customer or like waiting to hit a certain or like waiting to hit a certain or like waiting to hit a certain milestone milestone milestone to hire the person that you think you to hire the person that you think you to hire the person that you think you need so in that sense it's just a little need so in that sense it's just a little need so in that sense it's just a little bit more enabling bit more enabling bit more enabling and in terms of just like how it feels and in terms of just like how it feels and in terms of just like how it feels at least for me i would say uh thinking at least for me i would say uh thinking at least for me i would say uh thinking about the sort of the vision piece and about the sort of the vision piece and about the sort of the vision piece and just selling that big vision to just selling that big vision to just selling that big vision to uh customers but also other stakeholders uh customers but also other stakeholders uh customers but also other stakeholders like investors like investors like investors employees um that's just a lot more i employees um that's just a lot more i employees um that's just a lot more i think in a think in a think in a uh in a funded startup than it's in uh in a funded startup than it's in uh in a funded startup than it's in bootstrap startups bootstrap startups bootstrap startups uh i mean we can go into like more uh i mean we can go into like more uh i mean we can go into like more details but i would say like that that details but i would say like that that details but i would say like that that was like the first thing that i was was like the first thing that i was was like the first thing that i was surprised about was just how often you surprised about was just how often you surprised about was just how often you find yourself talking about like five find yourself talking about like five find yourself talking about like five years from now years from now years from now whereas before i was just worrying about whereas before i was just worrying about whereas before i was just worrying about like how to get to break even like how to get to break even like how to get to break even and how to get to um you know and how to get to um you know and how to get to um you know just a certain milestone right just a certain milestone right just a certain milestone right right yeah i find that when right yeah i find that when right yeah i find that when bootstrapping you're looking a month or bootstrapping you're looking a month or bootstrapping you're looking a month or three months ahead three months ahead three months ahead and it sounds like your experience with and it sounds like your experience with and it sounds like your experience with raising funding is you raising funding is you raising funding is you you have to be convincing customers and you have to be convincing customers and you have to be convincing customers and um um um investors that hey there's a vision here investors that hey there's a vision here investors that hey there's a vision here to get to to get to to get to a much larger company over the course a much larger company over the course a much larger company over the course course of years did you have any other course of years did you have any other course of years did you have any other we went through y combinator which

we went through y combinator which we went through y combinator which obviously is you know one of the gold obviously is you know one of the gold obviously is you know one of the gold standards in in accelerators standards in in accelerators standards in in accelerators and then you raised your round uh at and then you raised your round uh at and then you raised your round uh at demo day demo day demo day did you have other opportunities for did you have other opportunities for did you have other opportunities for funding funding funding or was y combinator kind of your first or was y combinator kind of your first or was y combinator kind of your first pick and you got in pick and you got in pick and you got in and and that was it and and that was it and and that was it um i think i applied to maybe one or two um i think i applied to maybe one or two um i think i applied to maybe one or two other um other um other um accelerators and then i didn't really accelerators and then i didn't really accelerators and then i didn't really get in and then i got into y combinator get in and then i got into y combinator get in and then i got into y combinator and uh in terms of funding i was having and uh in terms of funding i was having and uh in terms of funding i was having some conversations before but some conversations before but some conversations before but um i think i mean as you probably know um i think i mean as you probably know um i think i mean as you probably know that that that there needs to be a forcing function to there needs to be a forcing function to there needs to be a forcing function to close money and typically like the demo close money and typically like the demo close money and typically like the demo is a really good forcing function is a really good forcing function is a really good forcing function and so i think like while i was having and so i think like while i was having and so i think like while i was having conversations conversations conversations was really the demo day that brought it was really the demo day that brought it was really the demo day that brought it all together but certainly it wasn't all together but certainly it wasn't all together but certainly it wasn't just that one just that one just that one day of talking to investors that led to day of talking to investors that led to day of talking to investors that led to it but more kind of building the it but more kind of building the it but more kind of building the relationships over a few months relationships over a few months relationships over a few months sort of just culminating into the actual sort of just culminating into the actual sort of just culminating into the actual funding around the demo day funding around the demo day funding around the demo day yeah that makes sense you've written a yeah that makes sense you've written a yeah that makes sense you've written a lot you've been pretty transparent with lot you've been pretty transparent with lot you've been pretty transparent with your story your story your story um and we should link some of these up um and we should link some of these up um and we should link some of these up but you have but you have but you have a medium post called advice for a medium post called advice for a medium post called advice for entrepreneurs experiencing small entrepreneurs experiencing small entrepreneurs experiencing small business puberty business puberty business puberty five valuable lessons learned from five valuable lessons learned from five valuable lessons learned from building a b2b sas company building a b2b sas company building a b2b sas company and you've done an ama on indie hackers and you've done an ama on indie hackers and you've done an ama on indie hackers uh uh uh i'm a transgender entrepreneur i i'm a transgender entrepreneur i i'm a transgender entrepreneur i bootstrapped over 40k mrr bootstrapped over 40k mrr bootstrapped over 40k mrr ask me anything as well as an article ask me anything as well as an article ask me anything as well as an article also on your medium also on your medium also on your medium channel at starting a new tech business channel at starting a new tech business channel at starting a new tech business as a transgender woman

as a transgender woman as a transgender woman um and and i love the transparency you um and and i love the transparency you um and and i love the transparency you know the know the know the being transparent with your with your being transparent with your with your being transparent with your with your journey and helping journey and helping journey and helping share your lessons learned i think is share your lessons learned i think is share your lessons learned i think is both inspiring but it's also you know both inspiring but it's also you know both inspiring but it's also you know can help those folks who are can help those folks who are can help those folks who are um just looking for that way to to put um just looking for that way to to put um just looking for that way to to put that next foot in front of the other that next foot in front of the other that next foot in front of the other i'm curious from your perspective you i'm curious from your perspective you i'm curious from your perspective you know obviously your experience as a know obviously your experience as a know obviously your experience as a transgender woman had to have impacted transgender woman had to have impacted transgender woman had to have impacted um or it feels like it it certainly has um or it feels like it it certainly has um or it feels like it it certainly has impacted your journey impacted your journey impacted your journey and you know you've talked about in some and you know you've talked about in some and you know you've talked about in some of these articles but how do you feel of these articles but how do you feel of these articles but how do you feel like maybe bootstrapping was like maybe bootstrapping was like maybe bootstrapping was different for you as a transgender woman different for you as a transgender woman different for you as a transgender woman or or or perhaps your funded you know your perhaps your funded you know your perhaps your funded you know your experience raising funding if at all experience raising funding if at all experience raising funding if at all yeah that's a great question so i would yeah that's a great question so i would yeah that's a great question so i would actually say that actually say that actually say that um in some ways transitioning was easier um in some ways transitioning was easier um in some ways transitioning was easier as a bootstrap entrepreneur because you as a bootstrap entrepreneur because you as a bootstrap entrepreneur because you know you control the base of your know you control the base of your know you control the base of your startup startup startup very much like without any external very much like without any external very much like without any external influence so i could take a lot influence so i could take a lot influence so i could take a lot of time off between 2016 and of time off between 2016 and of time off between 2016 and early 20 to just focus on my transition early 20 to just focus on my transition early 20 to just focus on my transition so i would say so i would say so i would say if you want to transition then probably if you want to transition then probably if you want to transition then probably bootstrapping a startup is actually bootstrapping a startup is actually bootstrapping a startup is actually better better better at least for that why um i don't really at least for that why um i don't really at least for that why um i don't really know of any know of any know of any one who's kind of done it while being a one who's kind of done it while being a one who's kind of done it while being a ceo of a funded startup i ceo of a funded startup i ceo of a funded startup i i can't imagine like doing it um i can't imagine like doing it um i can't imagine like doing it um and in terms of how the experience was and in terms of how the experience was and in terms of how the experience was so i so i so i kind of like realized i'm trans and kind of like realized i'm trans and kind of like realized i'm trans and started transitioning much later in my started transitioning much later in my started transitioning much later in my journey and support me

journey and support me journey and support me but i do think some of the anxiety of but i do think some of the anxiety of but i do think some of the anxiety of sort of being trans and i couldn't sort of being trans and i couldn't sort of being trans and i couldn't really really really understand an attribute to being understand an attribute to being understand an attribute to being transgender was misattributed to sort of transgender was misattributed to sort of transgender was misattributed to sort of not uh being like a believer in what i not uh being like a believer in what i not uh being like a believer in what i did or did or did or something like i found it a little bit something like i found it a little bit something like i found it a little bit challenging to sort of challenging to sort of challenging to sort of uh invest myself entirely into my uh invest myself entirely into my uh invest myself entirely into my startup because i was feeling all this startup because i was feeling all this startup because i was feeling all this anxiety and i kept thinking that maybe anxiety and i kept thinking that maybe anxiety and i kept thinking that maybe it's because it's because it's because my startup isn't growing or i don't love my startup isn't growing or i don't love my startup isn't growing or i don't love working on this idea or working on this idea or working on this idea or and i would have these like moments of and i would have these like moments of and i would have these like moments of going in and out so it was a bit of a going in and out so it was a bit of a going in and out so it was a bit of a negative influence in that way negative influence in that way negative influence in that way but then i'm very grateful to the but then i'm very grateful to the but then i'm very grateful to the business for giving me the space to business for giving me the space to business for giving me the space to transition so transition so transition so i would say like it did more for me than i would say like it did more for me than i would say like it did more for me than i did for it in some i did for it in some i did for it in some some kind of ironical way yeah yeah some kind of ironical way yeah yeah some kind of ironical way yeah yeah that's really interesting but we talk so that's really interesting but we talk so that's really interesting but we talk so much about much about much about you know this term lifestyle business you know this term lifestyle business you know this term lifestyle business and having the freedom to do things and and having the freedom to do things and and having the freedom to do things and you know to do what you want and whether you know to do what you want and whether you know to do what you want and whether that's to work that's to work that's to work you know for me it was to at one point you know for me it was to at one point you know for me it was to at one point it was to work 12 hours a week and spend it was to work 12 hours a week and spend it was to work 12 hours a week and spend time with my newborn or for you it was time with my newborn or for you it was time with my newborn or for you it was the freedom the freedom the freedom and the ability to to transition which and the ability to to transition which and the ability to to transition which as you said would be very hard under as you said would be very hard under as you said would be very hard under most other circumstances where you are most other circumstances where you are most other circumstances where you are not not not in in control of the business you know in in control of the business you know in in control of the business you know even if you are you know even if you are you know even if you are you know if you've raised a lot of funding you if you've raised a lot of funding you if you've raised a lot of funding you have this um have this um have this um this mandate you know to to grow and i this mandate you know to to grow and i this mandate you know to to grow and i can imagine that can imagine that can imagine that being pretty challenging we have a we being pretty challenging we have a we being pretty challenging we have a we have a listener have a listener have a listener audience question that i i really like audience question that i i really like audience question that i i really like and i think you and i can probably both and i think you and i can probably both and i think you and i can probably both answer this it's a fun one answer this it's a fun one answer this it's a fun one what is more fun bootstrapping or being what is more fun bootstrapping or being what is more fun bootstrapping or being on on on the vc path

the vc path the vc path huh so i want to mention that i've only huh so i want to mention that i've only huh so i want to mention that i've only been on the vc path for like two or been on the vc path for like two or been on the vc path for like two or three months right three months right three months right and this is just the post seat uh and this is just the post seat uh and this is just the post seat uh you know terms of infinitely more you know terms of infinitely more you know terms of infinitely more favorable for entrepreneurs right now favorable for entrepreneurs right now favorable for entrepreneurs right now during the seed stage during the seed stage during the seed stage there's no boat seat given out there's there's no boat seat given out there's there's no boat seat given out there's no control so this is like the honeymoon no control so this is like the honeymoon no control so this is like the honeymoon phase phase phase so now with with that in mind i would so now with with that in mind i would so now with with that in mind i would say um say um say um they both have their kind of like they both have their kind of like they both have their kind of like moments right i mean moments right i mean moments right i mean like we were talking if you have if you like we were talking if you have if you like we were talking if you have if you know what you want to do with your know what you want to do with your know what you want to do with your freedom and with sort of your freedom and with sort of your freedom and with sort of your flexibility of time and then one day you flexibility of time and then one day you flexibility of time and then one day you want to work one day maybe you want to want to work one day maybe you want to want to work one day maybe you want to control your pace i think bootstrapping control your pace i think bootstrapping control your pace i think bootstrapping can be a lot of fun can be a lot of fun can be a lot of fun but if you sort of do want to like think but if you sort of do want to like think but if you sort of do want to like think a little bit bigger and you want to um a little bit bigger and you want to um a little bit bigger and you want to um sort of like build up a big vision and sort of like build up a big vision and sort of like build up a big vision and then either see fail or succeed and you then either see fail or succeed and you then either see fail or succeed and you want to sort of play it like that want to sort of play it like that want to sort of play it like that i think there's a certain sort of fun in i think there's a certain sort of fun in i think there's a certain sort of fun in in that for me i don't know what it is in that for me i don't know what it is in that for me i don't know what it is for you for you for you well what i found was well what i found was well what i found was having a big a big pile of funding having a big a big pile of funding having a big a big pile of funding behind us behind us behind us after after drip was acquired i worked after after drip was acquired i worked after after drip was acquired i worked there for almost two years there for almost two years there for almost two years and so while i didn't personally raise and so while i didn't personally raise and so while i didn't personally raise the funding we had the funding we had the funding we had 38 million in in venture funding and 38 million in in venture funding and 38 million in in venture funding and i found for me it was i found for me it was i found for me it was a easier to be more ambitious like to a easier to be more ambitious like to a easier to be more ambitious like to try to triple or quadruple instead of try to triple or quadruple instead of try to triple or quadruple instead of just double like that was just double like that was just double like that was a thing that you just have more money so a thing that you just have more money so a thing that you just have more money so you can hire faster and you can market you can hire faster and you can market you can hire faster and you can market more and you can spend more on ads more and you can spend more on ads more and you can spend more on ads that was kind that was fun the other that was kind that was fun the other that was kind that was fun the other thing i liked is thing i liked is thing i liked is i was able to hire uh i was able to

i was able to hire uh i was able to i was able to hire uh i was able to fire myself from all the jobs i didn't fire myself from all the jobs i didn't fire myself from all the jobs i didn't like right when i was a bootstrap like right when i was a bootstrap like right when i was a bootstrap founder with a team of 10 founder with a team of 10 founder with a team of 10 i still did a ton of things that i i still did a ton of things that i i still did a ton of things that i couldn't delegate to anyone right i couldn't delegate to anyone right i couldn't delegate to anyone right i didn't want to slow my didn't want to slow my didn't want to slow my my co-founder who was you know building my co-founder who was you know building my co-founder who was you know building product i didn't want to slow him down product i didn't want to slow him down product i didn't want to slow him down with a bunch of operation stuff but we with a bunch of operation stuff but we with a bunch of operation stuff but we really didn't have the budget or i really didn't have the budget or i really didn't have the budget or i i didn't want to go hire an ops person i didn't want to go hire an ops person i didn't want to go hire an ops person because we could have another developer because we could have another developer because we could have another developer you know or we could have another you know or we could have another you know or we could have another customer success person so customer success person so customer success person so there were certain advantages there so i there were certain advantages there so i there were certain advantages there so i think if you really do want to think if you really do want to think if you really do want to grow or at least in my experience it was grow or at least in my experience it was grow or at least in my experience it was it was less stressful having the funding it was less stressful having the funding it was less stressful having the funding um and it was you know i'll say easier um and it was you know i'll say easier um and it was you know i'll say easier but on the flip side but on the flip side but on the flip side to your point if you want the freedom to your point if you want the freedom to your point if you want the freedom and and kind of the lifestyle which and and kind of the lifestyle which and and kind of the lifestyle which i had had for the you know whatever 10 i had had for the you know whatever 10 i had had for the you know whatever 10 years prior years prior years prior to selling drip into 2016. um to selling drip into 2016. um to selling drip into 2016. um then that's got to win out you know and then that's got to win out you know and then that's got to win out you know and and certainly raising venture i mean and certainly raising venture i mean and certainly raising venture i mean there are ways to raise there are ways to raise there are ways to raise small amounts of money and not have a small amounts of money and not have a small amounts of money and not have a bunch of pressure on you right raised bunch of pressure on you right raised bunch of pressure on you right raised from tiny seed raised from angel from tiny seed raised from angel from tiny seed raised from angel investors but yeah if you are going to investors but yeah if you are going to investors but yeah if you are going to go to venture track i think there's a go to venture track i think there's a go to venture track i think there's a um certainly going to be a pressure and um certainly going to be a pressure and um certainly going to be a pressure and external pressure that you feel even if external pressure that you feel even if external pressure that you feel even if your investors aren't your investors aren't your investors aren't breathing down your neck i mean you're breathing down your neck i mean you're breathing down your neck i mean you're two or three months in you probably yeah two or three months in you probably yeah two or three months in you probably yeah you probably don't have investors saying you probably don't have investors saying you probably don't have investors saying grow faster go faster but you just grow faster go faster but you just grow faster go faster but you just feel like you should right because feel like you should right because feel like you should right because you've kind of made an implicit promise you've kind of made an implicit promise you've kind of made an implicit promise also i think if you're part of a class also i think if you're part of a class also i think if you're part of a class like y combinator you see people around like y combinator you see people around like y combinator you see people around you kind of like just crushing their you kind of like just crushing their you kind of like just crushing their goals and goals and goals and and it's it's it's overwhelming but then and it's it's it's overwhelming but then and it's it's it's overwhelming but then it's also inspiring so it's also inspiring so it's also inspiring so the reality isn't lost on you that a lot the reality isn't lost on you that a lot the reality isn't lost on you that a lot of people know of people know of people know how to grow really fast yeah so yeah how to grow really fast yeah so yeah how to grow really fast yeah so yeah it's always there yeah yeah we have

it's always there yeah yeah we have it's always there yeah yeah we have another question another question another question a good question from kartik from youtube a good question from kartik from youtube a good question from kartik from youtube and he says and he says and he says bootstrapping is usually considered a bootstrapping is usually considered a bootstrapping is usually considered a long-term game long-term game long-term game but that isn't the perception of a vc but that isn't the perception of a vc but that isn't the perception of a vc a venture-backed startup and i think a venture-backed startup and i think a venture-backed startup and i think he's implying that he's implying that he's implying that you know there are bootstrappers out you know there are bootstrappers out you know there are bootstrappers out there who say i want to run this for 20 there who say i want to run this for 20 there who say i want to run this for 20 or 30 years and take profits out or 30 years and take profits out or 30 years and take profits out versus venture usually has a clock versus venture usually has a clock versus venture usually has a clock attached to whatever hey we need a you attached to whatever hey we need a you attached to whatever hey we need a you know an ipo or an exit in know an ipo or an exit in know an ipo or an exit in five to ten years uh do you have any five to ten years uh do you have any five to ten years uh do you have any thoughts thoughts thoughts on this notion um i think that just depends on the um i think that just depends on the personality of the founder personality of the founder personality of the founder right so if you look at some of the right so if you look at some of the right so if you look at some of the companies like twilio or zendesk uh companies like twilio or zendesk uh companies like twilio or zendesk uh i mean one of our competitors will i mean one of our competitors will i mean one of our competitors will support me zendesk and i met their ceo support me zendesk and i met their ceo support me zendesk and i met their ceo and you know they think really long term and you know they think really long term and you know they think really long term and very committed like airbnb i don't and very committed like airbnb i don't and very committed like airbnb i don't they'll ever exit they'll ever exit they'll ever exit out of the business even an ipo is just out of the business even an ipo is just out of the business even an ipo is just a fundraising event a fundraising event a fundraising event honestly so um i think that's just up to honestly so um i think that's just up to honestly so um i think that's just up to you as a founder you can always you as a founder you can always you as a founder you can always choose to say no um to certain exits choose to say no um to certain exits choose to say no um to certain exits uh so i think like uh in that way uh so i think like uh in that way uh so i think like uh in that way bootstrap bootstrap bootstrap like i said bootstrapped and funded like i said bootstrapped and funded like i said bootstrapped and funded startups are quite similar that you will startups are quite similar that you will startups are quite similar that you will may be making these decisions may be making these decisions may be making these decisions uh in both of them as a bootstrapper as uh in both of them as a bootstrapper as uh in both of them as a bootstrapper as well there's a pretty good market to well there's a pretty good market to well there's a pretty good market to exit now and you know you'll keep exit now and you know you'll keep exit now and you know you'll keep getting offers once you're at a certain getting offers once you're at a certain getting offers once you're at a certain scale scale scale yep and that's right and i would yep and that's right and i would yep and that's right and i would i would almost argue i would argue with i would almost argue i would argue with i would almost argue i would argue with the notion that bootstrapping is the notion that bootstrapping is the notion that bootstrapping is considered a long-term game because considered a long-term game because considered a long-term game because most of the bootstrappers i know exit

most of the bootstrappers i know exit most of the bootstrappers i know exit they do exit because they eventually get they do exit because they eventually get they do exit because they eventually get tired i mean we can point a couple you tired i mean we can point a couple you tired i mean we can point a couple you know know know yes there's base camp and there's yes there's base camp and there's yes there's base camp and there's mailchimp and mailchimp and mailchimp and um buffer and there's a there are a um buffer and there's a there are a um buffer and there's a there are a handful that have been around for 10 or handful that have been around for 10 or handful that have been around for 10 or you know 10 plus years but i you know i you know 10 plus years but i you know i you know 10 plus years but i you know i never thought to be honest when we were never thought to be honest when we were never thought to be honest when we were building drip i didn't think i was going building drip i didn't think i was going building drip i didn't think i was going to exit to exit to exit but someone offers you enough money that but someone offers you enough money that but someone offers you enough money that you never have to work again you can you never have to work again you can you never have to work again you can find your kids call like suddenly it was find your kids call like suddenly it was find your kids call like suddenly it was like oh like oh like oh really so i can de-risk this entire really so i can de-risk this entire really so i can de-risk this entire thing like it rocks your world i didn't thing like it rocks your world i didn't thing like it rocks your world i didn't think josh from bare metrics would ever think josh from bare metrics would ever think josh from bare metrics would ever sell he sold you know i mean we could go sell he sold you know i mean we could go sell he sold you know i mean we could go through through through people so as you said you know as you're people so as you said you know as you're people so as you said you know as you're saying there's a real saying there's a real saying there's a real when you're you know if you're netting when you're you know if you're netting when you're you know if you're netting 300 300 300 000 a year uh on your business and 000 a year uh on your business and 000 a year uh on your business and someone comes and offers you someone comes and offers you someone comes and offers you 3 million four and a half five million 3 million four and a half five million 3 million four and a half five million dollars for this business you do the dollars for this business you do the dollars for this business you do the math quick it's like math quick it's like math quick it's like that's that's interesting another that's that's interesting another that's that's interesting another question uh from pub or a question for question uh from pub or a question for question uh from pub or a question for people i just said one more thing people i just said one more thing people i just said one more thing yes sorry um so and the other thing is yes sorry um so and the other thing is yes sorry um so and the other thing is like if you're a funded startup and like if you're a funded startup and like if you're a funded startup and you're doing well you can actually take you're doing well you can actually take you're doing well you can actually take a partial exit and then not a partial exit and then not a partial exit and then not exit so you can take like a secondary exit so you can take like a secondary exit so you can take like a secondary sort of like sale of stock and then you sort of like sale of stock and then you sort of like sale of stock and then you can take some money off the table can take some money off the table can take some money off the table so i would argue that you can actually so i would argue that you can actually so i would argue that you can actually go more long term go more long term go more long term in a funded startup in that way because in a funded startup in that way because in a funded startup in that way because the market for secondary stocks the market for secondary stocks the market for secondary stocks uh sale exists which doesn't exist for uh sale exists which doesn't exist for uh sale exists which doesn't exist for bootstrap startups bootstrap startups bootstrap startups not really it's very it's there's one or not really it's very it's there's one or not really it's very it's there's one or two investors i know that do it and it's two investors i know that do it and it's two investors i know that do it and it's very very very it's very nascent space and you're right it's very nascent space and you're right it's very nascent space and you're right the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of what is it second market.com i mean what is it second market.com i mean what is it second market.com i mean there's like four or five players where

there's like four or five players where there's like four or five players where you can just you can just you can just you're just selling yeah i think that's you're just selling yeah i think that's you're just selling yeah i think that's a really good point a really good point a really good point pablo in microconf connect asks in what pablo in microconf connect asks in what pablo in microconf connect asks in what way can the world of startups way can the world of startups way can the world of startups improve to be more friendly accepting improve to be more friendly accepting improve to be more friendly accepting and inclusive and inclusive and inclusive to trans people okay i mean i appreciate to trans people okay i mean i appreciate to trans people okay i mean i appreciate the question first of all the question first of all the question first of all obviously and i think startups are kind obviously and i think startups are kind obviously and i think startups are kind of of of farther ahead than most other i would farther ahead than most other i would farther ahead than most other i would say like older organizations and say like older organizations and say like older organizations and governments in terms of trans acceptance governments in terms of trans acceptance governments in terms of trans acceptance so that's already a pretty good start um so that's already a pretty good start um so that's already a pretty good start um i think like i think like i think like obviously health care is a big one if obviously health care is a big one if obviously health care is a big one if you provide insurance like you provide insurance like you provide insurance like offering insurance to uh to enable offering insurance to uh to enable offering insurance to uh to enable people to transition is a big one like people to transition is a big one like people to transition is a big one like when i was on active on the forums on when i was on active on the forums on when i was on active on the forums on reddit um reddit um reddit um some people would actually like quit some people would actually like quit some people would actually like quit their a their a their a good job and go work as a barista at good job and go work as a barista at good job and go work as a barista at starbucks starbucks starbucks because starbucks had a very inclusive because starbucks had a very inclusive because starbucks had a very inclusive uh insurance program and they covered uh insurance program and they covered uh insurance program and they covered your transitioning your transitioning your transitioning so uh just like i think think about like so uh just like i think think about like so uh just like i think think about like how much support exists for pregnancy how much support exists for pregnancy how much support exists for pregnancy right and it's definitely like a choice right and it's definitely like a choice right and it's definitely like a choice that people make to have children that people make to have children that people make to have children but they get all the support from the but they get all the support from the but they get all the support from the world and now just think about like world and now just think about like world and now just think about like how can you replicate that for something how can you replicate that for something how can you replicate that for something like transitioning which feels like a like transitioning which feels like a like transitioning which feels like a choice choice choice but it's actually very much medically but it's actually very much medically but it's actually very much medically necessary so necessary so necessary so having like leaves for transgender having like leaves for transgender having like leaves for transgender people having insurance just people having insurance just people having insurance just you know having a welcoming culture of you know having a welcoming culture of you know having a welcoming culture of bringing them back and bringing them back and bringing them back and uh i think like there's a lot of uh i think like there's a lot of uh i think like there's a lot of parallels there and that that's probably parallels there and that that's probably parallels there and that that's probably like a good place to start i would say

like a good place to start i would say like a good place to start i would say yeah that's that's great thanks i mean yeah that's that's great thanks i mean yeah that's that's great thanks i mean apart from obviously like the pronouns apart from obviously like the pronouns apart from obviously like the pronouns and and and you know the other stuff i would say you know the other stuff i would say you know the other stuff i would say like if you want to go deeper like if you want to go deeper like if you want to go deeper i would say healthcare is the big one i would say healthcare is the big one i would say healthcare is the big one yeah yeah yeah well and and you know i like what you're well and and you know i like what you're well and and you know i like what you're saying there because um saying there because um saying there because um on my radar would of course be pronouns on my radar would of course be pronouns on my radar would of course be pronouns and acceptance and just the the surface and acceptance and just the the surface and acceptance and just the the surface level stuff but when you bring it up level stuff but when you bring it up level stuff but when you bring it up like that with medical care and like that with medical care and like that with medical care and and and leave to be able to do it um not and and leave to be able to do it um not and and leave to be able to do it um not something something something i would have thought of so glad i'm not i would have thought of so glad i'm not i would have thought of so glad i'm not going to be able to uh going to be able to uh going to be able to uh a lot of these i weigh in on that this a lot of these i weigh in on that this a lot of these i weigh in on that this one i i don't i don't have any insights one i i don't i don't have any insights one i i don't i don't have any insights um dan dan from microkoff connect he um dan dan from microkoff connect he um dan dan from microkoff connect he says says says when do you quit your full-time job when when do you quit your full-time job when when do you quit your full-time job when you're burning the midnight oil you're burning the midnight oil you're burning the midnight oil building a bootstrap business building a bootstrap business building a bootstrap business huh that's a tough one to answer i mean huh that's a tough one to answer i mean huh that's a tough one to answer i mean it just i doubt that like some people actually i doubt that like some people actually build it build it build it up enough that they can then quit up enough that they can then quit up enough that they can then quit because they have because they have because they have like whatever enough money uh going you like whatever enough money uh going you like whatever enough money uh going you could raise a little bit of friends and could raise a little bit of friends and could raise a little bit of friends and family around and then quit family around and then quit family around and then quit uh i do think you want to kind of try to uh i do think you want to kind of try to uh i do think you want to kind of try to avoid burn yourself out avoid burn yourself out avoid burn yourself out so if you think that that's where you're so if you think that that's where you're so if you think that that's where you're headed you're better off taking at least headed you're better off taking at least headed you're better off taking at least some money from your friends and family some money from your friends and family some money from your friends and family and using that to quit your job um i and using that to quit your job um i and using that to quit your job um i think it also puts more pressure on you think it also puts more pressure on you think it also puts more pressure on you to to to actually make it work sometimes like a actually make it work sometimes like a actually make it work sometimes like a side project can stay side project can stay side project can stay a side project for too long otherwise so a side project for too long otherwise so a side project for too long otherwise so i i say that i i say that i i say that um yeah just don't burn yourself out um

um yeah just don't burn yourself out um um yeah just don't burn yourself out um the job market is so great that the job market is so great that the job market is so great that especially if you're a programmer or a especially if you're a programmer or a especially if you're a programmer or a marketer or a salesperson marketer or a salesperson marketer or a salesperson you can always get rehired or you can you can always get rehired or you can you can always get rehired or you can always do some consulting always do some consulting always do some consulting so you can restructure your life a bit so you can restructure your life a bit so you can restructure your life a bit from like a full-time job from like a full-time job from like a full-time job to maybe some consulting and then take to maybe some consulting and then take to maybe some consulting and then take more time out more time out more time out yeah that's a model i often see is yeah that's a model i often see is yeah that's a model i often see is consulting consulting consulting during the day or consulting part-time during the day or consulting part-time during the day or consulting part-time um um um saving up enough money for six months saving up enough money for six months saving up enough money for six months off uh perhaps having off uh perhaps having off uh perhaps having i think that's a better one house yeah i think that's a better one house yeah i think that's a better one house yeah it's it's it's not uncommon i know yeah trying to slice not uncommon i know yeah trying to slice not uncommon i know yeah trying to slice it i agree it i agree it i agree it puts more pressure on you because you it puts more pressure on you because you it puts more pressure on you because you know let's say you save up know let's say you save up know let's say you save up 30 40 000 and then you just watching 30 40 000 and then you just watching 30 40 000 and then you just watching that mel that ice cube melt that mel that ice cube melt that mel that ice cube melt you know i think there's but to your you know i think there's but to your you know i think there's but to your point then your back is to the wall point then your back is to the wall point then your back is to the wall and you're whether you're stressed or and you're whether you're stressed or and you're whether you're stressed or not you're at least really going to try not you're at least really going to try not you're at least really going to try to execute and make it work to execute and make it work to execute and make it work you're back back when i moved um you're back back when i moved um you're back back when i moved um when i so quit my day job so to speak i when i so quit my day job so to speak i when i so quit my day job so to speak i was i was a consultant still at the time was i was a consultant still at the time was i was a consultant still at the time and so i was working like eight hours a and so i was working like eight hours a and so i was working like eight hours a day and then working nights and weekends day and then working nights and weekends day and then working nights and weekends it was it was tiring it was it was tiring it was it was tiring and to your point i didn't burn out but and to your point i didn't burn out but and to your point i didn't burn out but i certainly came close i certainly came close i certainly came close i didn't know any other way hey i was i didn't know any other way hey i was i didn't know any other way hey i was pretty risk-averse so i was kind of pretty risk-averse so i was kind of pretty risk-averse so i was kind of scared and even though i had enough scared and even though i had enough scared and even though i had enough money in the bank to quit i was very money in the bank to quit i was very money in the bank to quit i was very i didn't want it to go sideways i also i didn't want it to go sideways i also i didn't want it to go sideways i also didn't didn't didn't really have a role model of seeing really have a role model of seeing really have a role model of seeing someone do this right this is 2008 2009 someone do this right this is 2008 2009 someone do this right this is 2008 2009 and i hadn't seen anyone bootstrap a and i hadn't seen anyone bootstrap a and i hadn't seen anyone bootstrap a business during the day business during the day business during the day you know and and do it so i think you know and and do it so i think you know and and do it so i think there's a there's a there's a level of comfort and and um risk

level of comfort and and um risk level of comfort and and um risk tolerance here if you're if you're tolerance here if you're if you're tolerance here if you're if you're pretty risk tolerant pretty risk tolerant pretty risk tolerant you know i think you can you can quit a you know i think you can you can quit a you know i think you can you can quit a lot earlier than than someone like i did lot earlier than than someone like i did lot earlier than than someone like i did what what was your story um hana in what what was your story um hana in what what was your story um hana in terms of did you terms of did you terms of did you have money in the bank or did you work a have money in the bank or did you work a have money in the bank or did you work a day job and day job and day job and do nights and weekends um so i didn't do nights and weekends um so i didn't do nights and weekends um so i didn't um you know i was just like foolish um you know i was just like foolish um you know i was just like foolish enough to quit it and think that it enough to quit it and think that it enough to quit it and think that it would all work out would all work out would all work out and then i did have to do actually some and then i did have to do actually some and then i did have to do actually some consulting so this was like i started up consulting so this was like i started up consulting so this was like i started up in 2007 in 2007 in 2007 and so i was doing a b2c startup before and so i was doing a b2c startup before and so i was doing a b2c startup before uh uh uh support b and um i did the same thing support b and um i did the same thing support b and um i did the same thing but i would conserve like maybe three or but i would conserve like maybe three or but i would conserve like maybe three or four months a year and then four months a year and then four months a year and then keep the rest of the time uh just to keep the rest of the time uh just to keep the rest of the time uh just to work on my startup work on my startup work on my startup and and that sort of like got us to and and that sort of like got us to and and that sort of like got us to just you know kind of like a ramen just you know kind of like a ramen just you know kind of like a ramen profitability for profitability for profitability for the b2c startup called musicboo and the b2c startup called musicboo and the b2c startup called musicboo and and then we started support b and and and then we started support b and and and then we started support b and and then we again had to do some consulting then we again had to do some consulting then we again had to do some consulting and then and then and then it was only a few years later that it was only a few years later that it was only a few years later that it kind of like broke even and and we it kind of like broke even and and we it kind of like broke even and and we could just live off it yeah could just live off it yeah could just live off it yeah right question from jessica baldwin in right question from jessica baldwin in right question from jessica baldwin in the chat the chat the chat she says now that you have more she says now that you have more she says now that you have more resources and the ability to grow your resources and the ability to grow your resources and the ability to grow your team team team what are some of the responsibilities what are some of the responsibilities what are some of the responsibilities you plan to delegate or perhaps already you plan to delegate or perhaps already you plan to delegate or perhaps already are delegating are delegating are delegating i mean i maybe i should preface that i mean i maybe i should preface that i mean i maybe i should preface that with saying like how large is your team with saying like how large is your team with saying like how large is your team right now right now right now yeah so i think like this is an yeah so i think like this is an yeah so i think like this is an interesting point to interesting point to interesting point to uh talk about when people think about

uh talk about when people think about uh talk about when people think about like raising money they think that like raising money they think that like raising money they think that uh you raise money and then you uh you raise money and then you uh you raise money and then you immediately start spending it immediately start spending it immediately start spending it and you have almost no control over it and you have almost no control over it and you have almost no control over it right like people talk about um right like people talk about um right like people talk about um actually most startups early on just actually most startups early on just actually most startups early on just raise money and then keep it raise money and then keep it raise money and then keep it and they almost hire nobody or they will and they almost hire nobody or they will and they almost hire nobody or they will be hired one or two people be hired one or two people be hired one or two people so our team is still pretty much just my so our team is still pretty much just my so our team is still pretty much just my co-founder and i co-founder and i co-founder and i and we have somebody working with us and we have somebody working with us and we have somebody working with us part-time will probably come on board part-time will probably come on board part-time will probably come on board full-time full-time full-time and we are trying to hire one one more and we are trying to hire one one more and we are trying to hire one one more person full-time but person full-time but person full-time but i think like until most startups at i think like until most startups at i think like until most startups at least like least like least like off yc let's that's their advice don't off yc let's that's their advice don't off yc let's that's their advice don't hit product market fit they don't hit product market fit they don't hit product market fit they don't actually go out and hire actually go out and hire actually go out and hire so i still don't believe very much in so i still don't believe very much in so i still don't believe very much in this idea of this idea of this idea of a lot of startups that raise something a lot of startups that raise something a lot of startups that raise something like we have raised like 2 million like we have raised like 2 million like we have raised like 2 million probably already have a 10 to 12 people probably already have a 10 to 12 people probably already have a 10 to 12 people team in three to four months team in three to four months team in three to four months and it works out for some of them it and it works out for some of them it and it works out for some of them it doesn't work out for a lot of them doesn't work out for a lot of them doesn't work out for a lot of them um so earlier it's very much like a um so earlier it's very much like a um so earlier it's very much like a bootstrap bootstrap bootstrap plus i would say in the sense that you plus i would say in the sense that you plus i would say in the sense that you you don't have to think about like you don't have to think about like you don't have to think about like getting like getting like getting like somebody and paying them a hundred somebody and paying them a hundred somebody and paying them a hundred dollars an hour or dollars an hour or dollars an hour or but it's not that you entirely like but it's not that you entirely like but it's not that you entirely like change the model so change the model so change the model so in our case like we want to hire maybe in our case like we want to hire maybe in our case like we want to hire maybe one or two programmers and one or two programmers and one or two programmers and like in the front-end back-end we want like in the front-end back-end we want like in the front-end back-end we want to hire a product person early on to hire a product person early on to hire a product person early on because we think that's because we think that's because we think that's really useful and that's about it i mean really useful and that's about it i mean really useful and that's about it i mean as a founder you got to do the sales as a founder you got to do the sales as a founder you got to do the sales yourself you got to talk to your yourself you got to talk to your yourself you got to talk to your customers directly customers directly customers directly so in that way it's very much like a so in that way it's very much like a so in that way it's very much like a bootstrap startup i think the bootstrap startup i think the bootstrap startup i think the it starts diverging only post-product

it starts diverging only post-product it starts diverging only post-product market fit market fit market fit in my i mean in my limited experience i in my i mean in my limited experience i in my i mean in my limited experience i think think think i think that's great insight and i think i think that's great insight and i think i think that's great insight and i think a big piece of it a big piece of it a big piece of it that people don't realize is they again that people don't realize is they again that people don't realize is they again they look at it as this binary they look at it as this binary they look at it as this binary bootstrapped or or funded but i've um bootstrapped or or funded but i've um bootstrapped or or funded but i've um pointed to entrepreneurs like jordan pointed to entrepreneurs like jordan pointed to entrepreneurs like jordan gall with cart hook gall with cart hook gall with cart hook and i used to say he's still a bootstrap and i used to say he's still a bootstrap and i used to say he's still a bootstrap founder even though he's raised however founder even though he's raised however founder even though he's raised however you know many hundreds of thousands or you know many hundreds of thousands or you know many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars millions of dollars millions of dollars and the term we've been using lately is and the term we've been using lately is and the term we've been using lately is bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped and that mostly bootstraps are people and that mostly bootstraps are people and that mostly bootstraps are people who have raised funding but they still who have raised funding but they still who have raised funding but they still run it light it's very capital efficient run it light it's very capital efficient run it light it's very capital efficient you know to your point you're you know to your point you're you know to your point you're you have two million in the bank and you have two million in the bank and you have two million in the bank and it's just the two of you it's just the two of you it's just the two of you because until you hit market fit you because until you hit market fit you because until you hit market fit you know you don't want a bunch of folks know you don't want a bunch of folks know you don't want a bunch of folks burning up it's also just early on like burning up it's also just early on like burning up it's also just early on like you're still trying to like kind of you're still trying to like kind of you're still trying to like kind of it's like having a rocket or whatever it's like having a rocket or whatever it's like having a rocket or whatever right like you're not really a rocket right like you're not really a rocket right like you're not really a rocket you are a little like you are a little like you are a little like boat that's trying to find its direction boat that's trying to find its direction boat that's trying to find its direction and it is actually much easier with a and it is actually much easier with a and it is actually much easier with a smaller team so you really want to keep smaller team so you really want to keep smaller team so you really want to keep it small it small it small but then once you're certain of the but then once you're certain of the but then once you're certain of the direction that's when you want to like direction that's when you want to like direction that's when you want to like fire up the engines and you fire up the engines and you fire up the engines and you want to go full blast but if you do it a want to go full blast but if you do it a want to go full blast but if you do it a little bit too soon little bit too soon little bit too soon then you're just going to fire off in then you're just going to fire off in then you're just going to fire off in the wrong direction it'll be very hard the wrong direction it'll be very hard the wrong direction it'll be very hard to like turn to like turn to like turn around right so right yeah and around right so right yeah and around right so right yeah and so then to jessica's question she was so then to jessica's question she was so then to jessica's question she was saying uh you have the ability to grow saying uh you have the ability to grow saying uh you have the ability to grow your team you have resources your team you have resources your team you have resources what are some of the first what are some of the first what are some of the first responsibilities when you do start responsibilities when you do start responsibilities when you do start hiring what are some of the first hiring what are some of the first hiring what are some of the first responsibilities you plan to delegate responsibilities you plan to delegate responsibilities you plan to delegate you've mentioned a couple developers you've mentioned a couple developers you've mentioned a couple developers i'm curious i've seen a model recently i'm curious i've seen a model recently i'm curious i've seen a model recently where founders where founders where founders who raise money they'll early on they'll

who raise money they'll early on they'll who raise money they'll early on they'll hire like a chief of staff hire like a chief of staff hire like a chief of staff or director of operations you know or director of operations you know or director of operations you know someone who just handles someone who just handles someone who just handles kind of all the miscellaneous stuff um kind of all the miscellaneous stuff um kind of all the miscellaneous stuff um so so so you know is that something you've you know is that something you've you know is that something you've thought about or what else aside from thought about or what else aside from thought about or what else aside from development you know are you thinking of development you know are you thinking of development you know are you thinking of delegating delegating delegating i think it's definitely something that i i think it's definitely something that i i think it's definitely something that i think about because think about because think about because it just becomes so commonplace now right it just becomes so commonplace now right it just becomes so commonplace now right like to have a chief of staff like to have a chief of staff like to have a chief of staff i i still kind of ask myself that am i i i still kind of ask myself that am i i i still kind of ask myself that am i hiring that person to hiring that person to hiring that person to sort of work on what i've already sort of work on what i've already sort of work on what i've already figured out or am i expecting them to figured out or am i expecting them to figured out or am i expecting them to figure things out figure things out figure things out and uh if you're expecting them to and uh if you're expecting them to and uh if you're expecting them to figure things out for you figure things out for you figure things out for you then it's a very specific person you can then it's a very specific person you can then it's a very specific person you can hire which is a founder hire which is a founder hire which is a founder that's just choosing not to do a startup that's just choosing not to do a startup that's just choosing not to do a startup at this point and there are very few at this point and there are very few at this point and there are very few people like that people like that people like that so if i found somebody like that maybe i so if i found somebody like that maybe i so if i found somebody like that maybe i would hire them but i think it's very would hire them but i think it's very would hire them but i think it's very hard to go out and look for that hard to go out and look for that hard to go out and look for that person and actively like seek them out person and actively like seek them out person and actively like seek them out unless you already know them from a unless you already know them from a unless you already know them from a network right network right network right another question from dan in connect he another question from dan in connect he another question from dan in connect he says i've read says i've read says i've read that a 50 50 split is a good way to that a 50 50 split is a good way to that a 50 50 split is a good way to divide divide divide your time and focus between marketing your time and focus between marketing your time and focus between marketing and product and product and product how do you split your time between how do you split your time between how do you split your time between building product and marketing channels huh so i wish i had like a good answer huh so i wish i had like a good answer for it in terms of like i was doing for it in terms of like i was doing for it in terms of like i was doing it very well i think it fluctuates it very well i think it fluctuates it very well i think it fluctuates obviously um obviously um obviously um [Music] [Music] [Music] we are strictly still in that stage we are strictly still in that stage we are strictly still in that stage where um where um where um you're not really doing marketing as you're not really doing marketing as you're not really doing marketing as much you're doing kind of like early much you're doing kind of like early much you're doing kind of like early customer development customer development customer development right like so so we have a product it

right like so so we have a product it right like so so we have a product it works it kind of you know works it kind of you know works it kind of you know it sells people come on on the site they it sells people come on on the site they it sells people come on on the site they buy it buy it buy it but i don't think we can like go out and but i don't think we can like go out and but i don't think we can like go out and start marketing it in a big way because start marketing it in a big way because start marketing it in a big way because i don't think we have like i don't think we have like i don't think we have like identified exactly who are or like identified exactly who are or like identified exactly who are or like kind of like that predictably uh kind of like that predictably uh kind of like that predictably uh predictable revenue predictable revenue predictable revenue book style of like identifying that book style of like identifying that book style of like identifying that niche niche niche so until i think you do that you're so until i think you do that you're so until i think you do that you're actually not marketing as much as just actually not marketing as much as just actually not marketing as much as just trying to find that niche trying to find that niche trying to find that niche once you do do it i think that's once you do do it i think that's once you do do it i think that's actually the time actually the time actually the time if you have the money to hire somebody if you have the money to hire somebody if you have the money to hire somebody to run the marketing for you to run the marketing for you to run the marketing for you so up until then you can get a team to write blog posts you can get a team to write blog posts for you or something i said for you or something i said for you or something i said i would say like probably in terms of i would say like probably in terms of i would say like probably in terms of pure marketing i only spent 10 15 pure marketing i only spent 10 15 pure marketing i only spent 10 15 of my time but i spent a lot more time of my time but i spent a lot more time of my time but i spent a lot more time maybe 35 maybe 35 maybe 35 or something just talking to customers or something just talking to customers or something just talking to customers and trying to find that market segment and trying to find that market segment and trying to find that market segment i don't want to call it marketing as i don't want to call it marketing as i don't want to call it marketing as much as i want to just call it customer much as i want to just call it customer much as i want to just call it customer development development development and i mean the rest of your time goes and i mean the rest of your time goes and i mean the rest of your time goes into the product of course yeah very nice um let's see we're coming very nice um let's see we're coming up to the close but i feel like up to the close but i feel like up to the close but i feel like well i'm curious i want to i have two well i'm curious i want to i have two well i'm curious i want to i have two two closing questions one two closing questions one two closing questions one is you you built support b bootstrapped is you you built support b bootstrapped is you you built support b bootstrapped it to 45k mrr it to 45k mrr it to 45k mrr and now you know you're looking to do and now you know you're looking to do and now you know you're looking to do that plus beyond with magic bell that plus beyond with magic bell that plus beyond with magic bell something that so many people struggle something that so many people struggle something that so many people struggle with is getting the the first with is getting the the first with is getting the the first hundred two hundred customers how did

hundred two hundred customers how did hundred two hundred customers how did you do that with support bell you do that with support bell you do that with support bell or now i'm mixing up support b and uh or now i'm mixing up support b and uh or now i'm mixing up support b and uh are you doing this a similar thing with are you doing this a similar thing with are you doing this a similar thing with magic bell or are you not there yet magic bell or are you not there yet magic bell or are you not there yet with magic bow um with magic bow um with magic bow um in support i would say it was a lot um in support i would say it was a lot um in support i would say it was a lot um i think i wasn't like paying that much i think i wasn't like paying that much i think i wasn't like paying that much attention to how it would go from 200 to attention to how it would go from 200 to attention to how it would go from 200 to 2000 and i think that was a fatal 2000 and i think that was a fatal 2000 and i think that was a fatal mistake mistake mistake so um i was like i thought just getting so um i was like i thought just getting so um i was like i thought just getting to 200 is enough and then getting to 400 to 200 is enough and then getting to 400 to 200 is enough and then getting to 400 is enough is enough is enough so while in magical of course we are so while in magical of course we are so while in magical of course we are trying to get from whatever we have to trying to get from whatever we have to trying to get from whatever we have to 200 and then to 400 200 and then to 400 200 and then to 400 i think what we're trying to figure out i think what we're trying to figure out i think what we're trying to figure out also is um also is um also is um is going from 200 to 400 a lot easier is going from 200 to 400 a lot easier is going from 200 to 400 a lot easier than going from let's say 10 to 200. than going from let's say 10 to 200. than going from let's say 10 to 200. uh and where to find these people uh and where to find these people uh and where to find these people obviously i think content remains i mean obviously i think content remains i mean obviously i think content remains i mean for most things like content remains a for most things like content remains a for most things like content remains a great great great channel um if you are part of an channel um if you are part of an channel um if you are part of an accelerator like why community you also accelerator like why community you also accelerator like why community you also find a lot of early customers just from find a lot of early customers just from find a lot of early customers just from that network that network that network um and and that's why i think like even um and and that's why i think like even um and and that's why i think like even if you're not raising if you're not raising if you're not raising like big money i think joining something like big money i think joining something like big money i think joining something like tiny seat or another like like tiny seat or another like like tiny seat or another like you know bootstrap accelerator is a you know bootstrap accelerator is a you know bootstrap accelerator is a great idea uh because early on you great idea uh because early on you great idea uh because early on you really want to find people who are really want to find people who are really want to find people who are already sort of primed to try new things already sort of primed to try new things already sort of primed to try new things it's a certain kind of mindset almost it's a certain kind of mindset almost it's a certain kind of mindset almost um beyond that of course like just the um beyond that of course like just the um beyond that of course like just the usual channels seo usual channels seo usual channels seo and uh you know product i mean you i was and uh you know product i mean you i was and uh you know product i mean you i was surprised honestly by just how well surprised honestly by just how well surprised honestly by just how well product hunt and even techcrunch works

product hunt and even techcrunch works product hunt and even techcrunch works still in terms of like still in terms of like still in terms of like actually finding you real customers or actually finding you real customers or actually finding you real customers or even hacker news even hacker news even hacker news again you don't want to rely on them again you don't want to rely on them again you don't want to rely on them long term but just to get your early long term but just to get your early long term but just to get your early customers so you can understand who to customers so you can understand who to customers so you can understand who to sell to sell to sell to these channels work pretty well nice these channels work pretty well nice these channels work pretty well nice one-time bumps one-time bumps one-time bumps so as we close out my final question is so as we close out my final question is so as we close out my final question is it's it's around raising funding and to it's it's around raising funding and to it's it's around raising funding and to me me me i guess why is magic bell a fundable i guess why is magic bell a fundable i guess why is magic bell a fundable idea idea idea and was support be also fun you know a and was support be also fun you know a and was support be also fun you know a fundable fundable fundable company and you just decided to keep it company and you just decided to keep it company and you just decided to keep it bootstrapped bootstrapped bootstrapped um support it was definitely very um support it was definitely very um support it was definitely very fundable i mean if you look at front if fundable i mean if you look at front if fundable i mean if you look at front if you look you look you look at you know help scout they've all gone at you know help scout they've all gone at you know help scout they've all gone on to raise a lot of money so it was on to raise a lot of money so it was on to raise a lot of money so it was we were in that first wave of with help we were in that first wave of with help we were in that first wave of with help scout scout scout the shared inbox startup it was the shared inbox startup it was the shared inbox startup it was definitely very fundable definitely very fundable definitely very fundable um i think one it was definitely um i think one it was definitely um i think one it was definitely harder to raise money back in 2012 it's harder to raise money back in 2012 it's harder to raise money back in 2012 it's definitely not anywhere like definitely not anywhere like definitely not anywhere like uh what it is today but then second i uh what it is today but then second i uh what it is today but then second i think i also didn't understand the model think i also didn't understand the model think i also didn't understand the model very well very well very well um like i don't know if you ever um like i don't know if you ever um like i don't know if you ever earlier on thought like this but if my earlier on thought like this but if my earlier on thought like this but if my arr was already 250k i was very arr was already 250k i was very arr was already 250k i was very reluctant and raising 250k reluctant and raising 250k reluctant and raising 250k because i always thought i'm already because i always thought i'm already because i always thought i'm already making 250k a year right making 250k a year right making 250k a year right but then uh that's just because that but then uh that's just because that but then uh that's just because that will come over a year then the fees will will come over a year then the fees will will come over a year then the fees will go out or whatever go out or whatever go out or whatever but this is 250k now to deploy so i but this is 250k now to deploy so i but this is 250k now to deploy so i think i had some of those basic models think i had some of those basic models think i had some of those basic models wrong wrong wrong and i think that showed in my pitch i

and i think that showed in my pitch i and i think that showed in my pitch i wasn't really thinking about what's in wasn't really thinking about what's in wasn't really thinking about what's in it for the investors right like it for the investors right like it for the investors right like you can't go to them and expect them to you can't go to them and expect them to you can't go to them and expect them to just help build a good business just help build a good business just help build a good business they do actually want their money back they do actually want their money back they do actually want their money back multiple times uh probably multiple times uh probably multiple times uh probably actually hundred times so i didn't actually hundred times so i didn't actually hundred times so i didn't really quite understand all of that so really quite understand all of that so really quite understand all of that so between between between just the scene and my lack of just the scene and my lack of just the scene and my lack of understanding uh i couldn't raise money understanding uh i couldn't raise money understanding uh i couldn't raise money and i think also partly because like i and i think also partly because like i and i think also partly because like i said i was a bit reluctant said i was a bit reluctant said i was a bit reluctant going down because i i just wasn't going down because i i just wasn't going down because i i just wasn't willing to kind of trade off my time willing to kind of trade off my time willing to kind of trade off my time entirely what makes magic bell a entirely what makes magic bell a entirely what makes magic bell a fundable idea fundable idea fundable idea um well so um well so um well so what we are doing is we are enabling what we are doing is we are enabling what we are doing is we are enabling each application to build a better each application to build a better each application to build a better notification experience notification experience notification experience and well just when you think about that and well just when you think about that and well just when you think about that that's a big market and that's growing that's a big market and that's growing that's a big market and that's growing each day every day you have more sas each day every day you have more sas each day every day you have more sas apps you have more mobile apps apps you have more mobile apps apps you have more mobile apps you get more notifications so it's a you get more notifications so it's a you get more notifications so it's a problem that's actually growing so one problem that's actually growing so one problem that's actually growing so one is that is that is that the second is if you look at some of our the second is if you look at some of our the second is if you look at some of our competitors competitors competitors uh the incumbents like twilio or cengrid uh the incumbents like twilio or cengrid uh the incumbents like twilio or cengrid that are doing that are doing that are doing a piece of that problem they're already a piece of that problem they're already a piece of that problem they're already pretty big and pretty big and pretty big and so there are lot there's a lot of so there are lot there's a lot of so there are lot there's a lot of precedent in terms of just how big these precedent in terms of just how big these precedent in terms of just how big these companies can become companies can become companies can become so and then you know we have a bunch of so and then you know we have a bunch of so and then you know we have a bunch of customers already that are paying us so customers already that are paying us so customers already that are paying us so there are some early numbers in terms of there are some early numbers in terms of there are some early numbers in terms of like what we can charge them like what we can charge them like what we can charge them what the life like we have zero church what the life like we have zero church what the life like we have zero church so far in the last eight months so far in the last eight months so far in the last eight months and uh which is not a lot but it's still and uh which is not a lot but it's still and uh which is not a lot but it's still enough to know that enough to know that enough to know that the sas flywheel will kick in so when the sas flywheel will kick in so when the sas flywheel will kick in so when you put all of that together that's a

you put all of that together that's a you put all of that together that's a pretty convincing pitch i think pretty convincing pitch i think pretty convincing pitch i think doesn't make it easy to race but it's doesn't make it easy to race but it's doesn't make it easy to race but it's like a start like a start like a start yep and it's kind of spoken for itself yep and it's kind of spoken for itself yep and it's kind of spoken for itself raising almost 2 million 2 million bucks raising almost 2 million 2 million bucks raising almost 2 million 2 million bucks um congrats on that anna thanks so much um congrats on that anna thanks so much um congrats on that anna thanks so much for joining me today for joining me today for joining me today if folks want to keep up with what if folks want to keep up with what if folks want to keep up with what you're working on that's magicbell.com you're working on that's magicbell.com you're working on that's magicbell.com and on twitter you are and on twitter you are and on twitter you are una mas hana little uh espanol there for una mas hana little uh espanol there for una mas hana little uh espanol there for those folks in the no una mas hana those folks in the no una mas hana those folks in the no una mas hana thanks again for uh thanks again for uh thanks again for uh joining me thank you so much it was joining me thank you so much it was joining me thank you so much it was great bye great bye great bye all right and thank you for joining me all right and thank you for joining me all right and thank you for joining me today's episode today's episode today's episode was brought to you by rewardful was brought to you by rewardful was brought to you by rewardful rewardful is quickly becoming the go-to rewardful is quickly becoming the go-to rewardful is quickly becoming the go-to platform to set up affiliate referral platform to set up affiliate referral platform to set up affiliate referral and partner programs for your sas and partner programs for your sas and partner programs for your sas membership or subscription membership or subscription membership or subscription business rewardful handles all business rewardful handles all business rewardful handles all subscription billing scenarios such as subscription billing scenarios such as subscription billing scenarios such as free trials upgrades downgrades free trials upgrades downgrades free trials upgrades downgrades cancellation cancellation cancellation refunds and pro rated charges out of the refunds and pro rated charges out of the refunds and pro rated charges out of the box with their simple box with their simple box with their simple 15 minutes setup they're the only 15 minutes setup they're the only 15 minutes setup they're the only platform that has a built-in affiliate platform that has a built-in affiliate platform that has a built-in affiliate finder that crawls the web finder that crawls the web finder that crawls the web and surfaces high quality relevant and surfaces high quality relevant and surfaces high quality relevant affiliates for your program affiliates for your program affiliates for your program simply search by keyword competitor or simply search by keyword competitor or simply search by keyword competitor or alternative names and reach out to the alternative names and reach out to the alternative names and reach out to the best affiliates in your market to take best affiliates in your market to take best affiliates in your market to take your program to the next level your program to the next level your program to the next level check them out at getrewardful.com check them out at getrewardful.com check them out at getrewardful.com startups to get 30 off your first three startups to get 30 off your first three startups to get 30 off your first three months the offer expires months the offer expires months the offer expires in five days may 31st this is the last in five days may 31st this is the last in five days may 31st this is the last week week week for 30 off your three months and thank for 30 off your three months and thank for 30 off your three months and thank you so much to rewardful for you so much to rewardful for you so much to rewardful for helping started for the rest of us at helping started for the rest of us at helping started for the rest of us at microcomp on air microcomp on air microcomp on air stay on the air

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