2021 State of Independent SaaS Report Live Stream

we we are live welcome thanks for joining me are live welcome thanks for joining me are live welcome thanks for joining me for the 2021 for the 2021 for the 2021 state of independent sas live stream and state of independent sas live stream and state of independent sas live stream and presentation of our report presentation of our report presentation of our report as always i'm your host rob walling and as always i'm your host rob walling and as always i'm your host rob walling and on behalf of on behalf of on behalf of me and my team at microconf i just want me and my team at microconf i just want me and my team at microconf i just want to welcome you to welcome you to welcome you and thank you for hanging out with us and thank you for hanging out with us and thank you for hanging out with us for the next 30 35 minutes as we for the next 30 35 minutes as we for the next 30 35 minutes as we as we dive into these these findings as we dive into these these findings as we dive into these these findings this is our second annual this is our second annual this is our second annual state of independent sas report and the state of independent sas report and the state of independent sas report and the cool part this year is not only do we cool part this year is not only do we cool part this year is not only do we get get get a um you know kind of a balance sheet a um you know kind of a balance sheet a um you know kind of a balance sheet like a like a like a state in time a frozen in time look at state in time a frozen in time look at state in time a frozen in time look at this year but we now have two years of this year but we now have two years of this year but we now have two years of data data data and i'll be making some connections as and i'll be making some connections as and i'll be making some connections as we go through about uh the trends that we go through about uh the trends that we go through about uh the trends that we're seeing we're seeing we're seeing um things like are more people moving to um things like are more people moving to um things like are more people moving to freemium or more founders moving to freemium or more founders moving to freemium or more founders moving to asking credit card upfront that kind of asking credit card upfront that kind of asking credit card upfront that kind of stuff so stuff so stuff so thanks so much for showing up here you thanks so much for showing up here you thanks so much for showing up here you will notice if you saw last year's live will notice if you saw last year's live will notice if you saw last year's live stream stream stream we had a crew and and a whole space we had a crew and and a whole space we had a crew and and a whole space rented out rented out rented out producer xander flew out and this year producer xander flew out and this year producer xander flew out and this year it is a covid friendly presentation it is a covid friendly presentation it is a covid friendly presentation of of this live stream um i'm sitting of of this live stream um i'm sitting of of this live stream um i'm sitting here basically alone here basically alone here basically alone in this house with uh you know it's kind in this house with uh you know it's kind in this house with uh you know it's kind of lonely behind me but it's me of lonely behind me but it's me of lonely behind me but it's me and my cup of tea and producer xander is and my cup of tea and producer xander is and my cup of tea and producer xander is at a safe at a safe at a safe socially distanced i think he's about a socially distanced i think he's about a socially distanced i think he's about a thousand miles away from here thousand miles away from here thousand miles away from here um producing this so i really look um producing this so i really look um producing this so i really look forward to uh to running through this forward to uh to running through this forward to uh to running through this with you with you with you and um you know once again thanks for and um you know once again thanks for and um you know once again thanks for thanks for joining us thanks for joining us thanks for joining us if you're unfamiliar with microconf or if you're unfamiliar with microconf or if you're unfamiliar with microconf or all of the things that we offer all of the things that we offer all of the things that we offer um i want to just take a minute to walk

um i want to just take a minute to walk um i want to just take a minute to walk through through through how we evolved and you know maybe why how we evolved and you know maybe why how we evolved and you know maybe why the state of independent sas the state of independent sas the state of independent sas comes out of microconf each year why we comes out of microconf each year why we comes out of microconf each year why we decided to put this report together decided to put this report together decided to put this report together so microconf itself started as an so microconf itself started as an so microconf itself started as an in-person event about a decade ago in-person event about a decade ago in-person event about a decade ago and since then we've run more than 20 and since then we've run more than 20 and since then we've run more than 20 events we actually had seven events we actually had seven events we actually had seven in-person events scheduled for last year in-person events scheduled for last year in-person events scheduled for last year that we had to unfortunately postpone that we had to unfortunately postpone that we had to unfortunately postpone due to kovid um but in addition to the due to kovid um but in addition to the due to kovid um but in addition to the in-person events about two years ago we in-person events about two years ago we in-person events about two years ago we started started started making a big push to the the virtual making a big push to the the virtual making a big push to the the virtual world this was even before world this was even before world this was even before um you know before covid had happened um you know before covid had happened um you know before covid had happened and so we have and so we have and so we have a great video vault on youtube that is a great video vault on youtube that is a great video vault on youtube that is completely free it's about 200 different completely free it's about 200 different completely free it's about 200 different microconf talks microconf talks microconf talks those are all free at youtube.com those are all free at youtube.com those are all free at youtube.com microconf i encourage you to check that microconf i encourage you to check that microconf i encourage you to check that out if you haven't out if you haven't out if you haven't we have some great playlists on there we have some great playlists on there we have some great playlists on there like the top five rated talks of all like the top five rated talks of all like the top five rated talks of all time time time and uh the top 10 talks needed for for and uh the top 10 talks needed for for and uh the top 10 talks needed for for bootstrapping and starting your first bootstrapping and starting your first bootstrapping and starting your first sas app in addition we have things of sas app in addition we have things of sas app in addition we have things of course like the state of independent sas course like the state of independent sas course like the state of independent sas um you know we have a large reach into um you know we have a large reach into um you know we have a large reach into that community folks who are that community folks who are that community folks who are bootstrapping bootstrapping bootstrapping or mostly bootstrapping their sas apps or mostly bootstrapping their sas apps or mostly bootstrapping their sas apps and want to build ambitious and want to build ambitious and want to build ambitious ambitious startups you know and ambitious startups you know and ambitious startups you know and sometimes it's for lifestyle and sometimes it's for lifestyle and sometimes it's for lifestyle and sometimes it's sometimes it's sometimes it's because they want to achieve something because they want to achieve something because they want to achieve something great but it's not going down that great but it's not going down that great but it's not going down that venture track venture track venture track in addition another offering we have is in addition another offering we have is in addition another offering we have is microconf microconf microconf connect which is our always-on connect which is our always-on connect which is our always-on year-round year-round year-round slack community we have more than 1700 slack community we have more than 1700 slack community we have more than 1700 founders founders founders and actually that's where the action's and actually that's where the action's and actually that's where the action's happening today if you're watching happening today if you're watching happening today if you're watching this live stream um if you head to this live stream um if you head to this live stream um if you head to microsoftconnect.com you can

microsoftconnect.com you can microsoftconnect.com you can sign up and if you're already in sign up and if you're already in sign up and if you're already in microconf.com microconf.com microconf.com it's totally free by the way you just it's totally free by the way you just it's totally free by the way you just head to the state of independent sas head to the state of independent sas head to the state of independent sas channel and that's where you can ask channel and that's where you can ask channel and that's where you can ask questions and be involved in questions and be involved in questions and be involved in the conversation around uh what we're up the conversation around uh what we're up the conversation around uh what we're up to to to it's a bunch of other stuff microconf it's a bunch of other stuff microconf it's a bunch of other stuff microconf does if you're not on our list i would does if you're not on our list i would does if you're not on our list i would head to microsoft.com and head to microsoft.com and head to microsoft.com and check us out lastly from microconf check us out lastly from microconf check us out lastly from microconf about two years ago we launched the about two years ago we launched the about two years ago we launched the first startup accelerator designed for first startup accelerator designed for first startup accelerator designed for sas bootstrappers and that's at sas bootstrappers and that's at sas bootstrappers and that's at tinyseed.com tinyseed.com tinyseed.com we offer a bit of funding and a heck of we offer a bit of funding and a heck of we offer a bit of funding and a heck of a lot of mentorship a lot of mentorship a lot of mentorship and and guidance through a year-long um and and guidance through a year-long um and and guidance through a year-long um accelerator program it was the first of accelerator program it was the first of accelerator program it was the first of its kind and it was the first remote its kind and it was the first remote its kind and it was the first remote accelerator that i had heard of accelerator that i had heard of accelerator that i had heard of of course we looked like geniuses when of course we looked like geniuses when of course we looked like geniuses when covent hit but it was it was just the covent hit but it was it was just the covent hit but it was it was just the way we wanted to do it because we know way we wanted to do it because we know way we wanted to do it because we know how spread out the indie sass and how spread out the indie sass and how spread out the indie sass and bootstrap sass founders are bootstrap sass founders are bootstrap sass founders are tinyc.com if you're curious here about tinyc.com if you're curious here about tinyc.com if you're curious here about that that that and lastly before we dig into the report and lastly before we dig into the report and lastly before we dig into the report i want to thank our headline partners i want to thank our headline partners i want to thank our headline partners both for 2020 both for 2020 both for 2020 and 2021 this is hay and and 2021 this is hay and and 2021 this is hay and stripe we've been a long time fan of stripe we've been a long time fan of stripe we've been a long time fan of base camp who puts out hay base camp who puts out hay base camp who puts out hay and and stripe and they've been longtime and and stripe and they've been longtime and and stripe and they've been longtime supporters of microconf supporters of microconf supporters of microconf the founders of these companies have the founders of these companies have the founders of these companies have attended microcomps attended microcomps attended microcomps they've done onstage q and a's and they've done onstage q and a's and they've done onstage q and a's and they've just really been supporting this they've just really been supporting this they've just really been supporting this bootstrap bootstrap bootstrap and indie you know independently funded and indie you know independently funded and indie you know independently funded sas movement so sas movement so sas movement so one thing i would ask is if you haven't one thing i would ask is if you haven't one thing i would ask is if you haven't uh if you yeah i would ask you uh if you yeah i would ask you uh if you yeah i would ask you go to twitter and reach out to them it's

go to twitter and reach out to them it's go to twitter and reach out to them it's hey hey hey hey hey hey and at stripe so hey hey and strike and and at stripe so hey hey and strike and and at stripe so hey hey and strike and just thank them for supporting microconf just thank them for supporting microconf just thank them for supporting microconf and supporting you know independent sas and supporting you know independent sas and supporting you know independent sas or supporting bootstrap sas founders or supporting bootstrap sas founders or supporting bootstrap sas founders because because because they put their money where their mouth they put their money where their mouth they put their money where their mouth is to support this community and and we is to support this community and and we is to support this community and and we like to recognize that and we definitely like to recognize that and we definitely like to recognize that and we definitely thank them for their support thank them for their support thank them for their support it allows us to do things like the state it allows us to do things like the state it allows us to do things like the state of independent sas survey of independent sas survey of independent sas survey that took hundreds of person hours and that took hundreds of person hours and that took hundreds of person hours and several thousand dollars to put together several thousand dollars to put together several thousand dollars to put together over the past over the past over the past several months and with that let's dive several months and with that let's dive several months and with that let's dive in in in so i'm looking down at my clicker if so i'm looking down at my clicker if so i'm looking down at my clicker if you're wondering why i'm doing that um you're wondering why i'm doing that um you're wondering why i'm doing that um one thing i wanted to note as we get one thing i wanted to note as we get one thing i wanted to note as we get into it is if you're on twitter hashtag into it is if you're on twitter hashtag into it is if you're on twitter hashtag i mean if you have questions or comments i mean if you have questions or comments i mean if you have questions or comments or thoughts on the report or thoughts on the report or thoughts on the report that's great to put put them on twitter that's great to put put them on twitter that's great to put put them on twitter or obviously in the microcomp connect or obviously in the microcomp connect or obviously in the microcomp connect chat chat chat so the 2021 state of independent sas so the 2021 state of independent sas so the 2021 state of independent sas report wound up being about 72 pages report wound up being about 72 pages report wound up being about 72 pages this year this year this year for the full report and i think there's for the full report and i think there's for the full report and i think there's a slightly shorter version a slightly shorter version a slightly shorter version for folks who didn't complete the report for folks who didn't complete the report for folks who didn't complete the report we shrunk it down from about 85 to 90 we shrunk it down from about 85 to 90 we shrunk it down from about 85 to 90 last year because we felt like some of last year because we felt like some of last year because we felt like some of the the the and we got some feedback that some of and we got some feedback that some of and we got some feedback that some of the pages just weren't you know the the pages just weren't you know the the pages just weren't you know the reports reports reports uh graphs weren't that helpful but today uh graphs weren't that helpful but today uh graphs weren't that helpful but today we're gonna dig through we're gonna dig through we're gonna dig through seven uh there's seven topics and about seven uh there's seven topics and about seven uh there's seven topics and about two to three pages from two to three pages from two to three pages from each section and we'll run for i don't each section and we'll run for i don't each section and we'll run for i don't know i'll talk for about another 15 to know i'll talk for about another 15 to know i'll talk for about another 15 to 20 minutes 20 minutes 20 minutes and then we're going to do q a and so if and then we're going to do q a and so if and then we're going to do q a and so if you have any questions about the report you have any questions about the report you have any questions about the report or about data or about something i say or about data or about something i say or about data or about something i say you know my findings you know my findings you know my findings please do feel free to weigh in in slack please do feel free to weigh in in slack please do feel free to weigh in in slack so we're going to go through the so we're going to go through the so we're going to go through the founders couple slides about the founders couple slides about the founders couple slides about the companies companies companies that are in the state of independence

that are in the state of independence that are in the state of independence sas report pricing sas report pricing sas report pricing sas metrics marketing growth and of sas metrics marketing growth and of sas metrics marketing growth and of course the bonus marketing insights and course the bonus marketing insights and course the bonus marketing insights and that's the section that's only available that's the section that's only available that's the section that's only available to folks to folks to folks who completed who actually completed the who completed who actually completed the who completed who actually completed the survey survey survey so first we're going to dig into the so first we're going to dig into the so first we're going to dig into the founders and again i think there's founders and again i think there's founders and again i think there's six or eight you know pages or graphs in six or eight you know pages or graphs in six or eight you know pages or graphs in the report itself and i think we look at the report itself and i think we look at the report itself and i think we look at two to three here just in the interest two to three here just in the interest two to three here just in the interest of time didn't want to do a full one of time didn't want to do a full one of time didn't want to do a full one hour live stream want to make good use hour live stream want to make good use hour live stream want to make good use of your time so of your time so of your time so trying to pull out the most uh perhaps trying to pull out the most uh perhaps trying to pull out the most uh perhaps high level or oppression high level or oppression high level or oppression facts about it so first uh facts about it so first uh facts about it so first uh question how many founders started your question how many founders started your question how many founders started your company and company and company and of the respondents about 56 percent had of the respondents about 56 percent had of the respondents about 56 percent had our single founders and our single founders and our single founders and 36 percent double uh two you know two 36 percent double uh two you know two 36 percent double uh two you know two founders which puts us over 92 percent founders which puts us over 92 percent founders which puts us over 92 percent for one and two founder teams which very for one and two founder teams which very for one and two founder teams which very much in line much in line much in line with our experience in the micro conf with our experience in the micro conf with our experience in the micro conf community and you know i think the community and you know i think the community and you know i think the bootstrap sas community in general bootstrap sas community in general bootstrap sas community in general obviously occasionally we'll see uh obviously occasionally we'll see uh obviously occasionally we'll see uh three and four founder teams three and four founder teams three and four founder teams but this definitely uh lines up and it's but this definitely uh lines up and it's but this definitely uh lines up and it's about equal to what it was about equal to what it was about equal to what it was last year which i think i would expect i last year which i think i would expect i last year which i think i would expect i wouldn't expect this to be a trend wouldn't expect this to be a trend wouldn't expect this to be a trend that changes and i'd like to call out that changes and i'd like to call out that changes and i'd like to call out that you know in silicon valley that you know in silicon valley that you know in silicon valley where they do um or anywhere they write where they do um or anywhere they write where they do um or anywhere they write venture checks usually there's a bias venture checks usually there's a bias venture checks usually there's a bias towards two or more founder teams towards two or more founder teams towards two or more founder teams because the journey is long and hard because the journey is long and hard because the journey is long and hard we actually i've kind of had a bias we actually i've kind of had a bias we actually i've kind of had a bias towards smaller teams one and two towards smaller teams one and two towards smaller teams one and two founder teams because founder teams because founder teams because we're scrappy we're cash efficient we're scrappy we're cash efficient we're scrappy we're cash efficient bootstrappers and bootstrappers and bootstrappers and um i don't know i just seen a lot of um i don't know i just seen a lot of um i don't know i just seen a lot of examples of people get to 5 or 10 examples of people get to 5 or 10 examples of people get to 5 or 10 million in arr million in arr million in arr as a single founder or a two person team

as a single founder or a two person team as a single founder or a two person team and you know not have the need for a big and you know not have the need for a big and you know not have the need for a big founding team our next slide is our next question is our next slide is our next question is before founding your current company before founding your current company before founding your current company did you start a prior company 60 of did you start a prior company 60 of did you start a prior company 60 of folks folks folks have started a prior one so they're on have started a prior one so they're on have started a prior one so they're on their second or third forty percent their second or third forty percent their second or third forty percent it's their first effort and on the on it's their first effort and on the on it's their first effort and on the on the right there you can see that um the right there you can see that um the right there you can see that um about what is that about fifty percent about what is that about fifty percent about what is that about fifty percent never made it to 10k never made it to 10k never made it to 10k with with their previous effort um and with with their previous effort um and with with their previous effort um and then some folks are obviously you know then some folks are obviously you know then some folks are obviously you know if you get to a million or more a month if you get to a million or more a month if you get to a million or more a month and you probably had an exit or you have and you probably had an exit or you have and you probably had an exit or you have a ceo looking after your business a ceo looking after your business a ceo looking after your business and uh you're on to your next adventure and uh you're on to your next adventure and uh you're on to your next adventure as a serial founder as a serial founder as a serial founder demographics uh we look at age racial demographics uh we look at age racial demographics uh we look at age racial categories gender categories um categories gender categories um categories gender categories um this year some similarities although this year some similarities although this year some similarities although some transitions uh i think some transitions uh i think some transitions uh i think in a good way so i like to think of in a good way so i like to think of in a good way so i like to think of maybe applying to y combinator or a lot maybe applying to y combinator or a lot maybe applying to y combinator or a lot of of of say silicon valley startup founders are say silicon valley startup founders are say silicon valley startup founders are the 20 20 somethings and maybe if you the 20 20 somethings and maybe if you the 20 20 somethings and maybe if you get into your get into your get into your 30s you're starting to be you know in 30s you're starting to be you know in 30s you're starting to be you know in the older the older uh the older the older uh the older the older uh decade with microconf it has tended to decade with microconf it has tended to decade with microconf it has tended to be and with be and with be and with not just microcosm but the whole you not just microcosm but the whole you not just microcosm but the whole you know independent sas movement i think know independent sas movement i think know independent sas movement i think tends to be a little older skew a little tends to be a little older skew a little tends to be a little older skew a little older where the peak is in that 30 older where the peak is in that 30 older where the peak is in that 30 decade and it's 30 to 40 really makes up decade and it's 30 to 40 really makes up decade and it's 30 to 40 really makes up the vast majority what is that almost 80 the vast majority what is that almost 80 the vast majority what is that almost 80 percent percent percent of of the folks so it is like a bell of of the folks so it is like a bell of of the folks so it is like a bell curve and then as you go under the you curve and then as you go under the you curve and then as you go under the you know the 20s and 50s um know the 20s and 50s um know the 20s and 50s um which i'll be joining in a few years which i'll be joining in a few years which i'll be joining in a few years actually we uh not the 20s the 50s actually we uh not the 20s the 50s actually we uh not the 20s the 50s we you know we have kind of a bell curve we you know we have kind of a bell curve we you know we have kind of a bell curve uh going there which is which is fun uh going there which is which is fun uh going there which is which is fun um racial categories you'll you'll

um racial categories you'll you'll um racial categories you'll you'll notice that with racial and gender we notice that with racial and gender we notice that with racial and gender we add up to more than 100 percent add up to more than 100 percent add up to more than 100 percent um and that's because we asked the um and that's because we asked the um and that's because we asked the question as uh do you have question as uh do you have question as uh do you have or which categories are represented in or which categories are represented in or which categories are represented in your startup so if you have multiple your startup so if you have multiple your startup so if you have multiple founders founders founders you might have uh mo you know multiple you might have uh mo you know multiple you might have uh mo you know multiple racial categories or in an individual racial categories or in an individual racial categories or in an individual you might have multiple you might have multiple you might have multiple uh multiple categories so symbol very uh multiple categories so symbol very uh multiple categories so symbol very similar to last year similar to last year similar to last year racially um you know in terms of racially um you know in terms of racially um you know in terms of categories uh white i believe is about categories uh white i believe is about categories uh white i believe is about 88 88 88 last year and it's 87 this year the last year and it's 87 this year the last year and it's 87 this year the uh in terms of the racial categories uh in terms of the racial categories uh in terms of the racial categories last year i believe it was 88 last year i believe it was 88 last year i believe it was 88 white and then a real broad mix of the white and then a real broad mix of the white and then a real broad mix of the rest this year it's it's 87 with a rest this year it's it's 87 with a rest this year it's it's 87 with a little bit more of a broader little bit more of a broader little bit more of a broader um you know swath through you know the um you know swath through you know the um you know swath through you know the rest as you can see there i won't go rest as you can see there i won't go rest as you can see there i won't go through them all through them all through them all in gender categories there's actually in gender categories there's actually in gender categories there's actually been a bit of progress been a bit of progress been a bit of progress um it's still you know founders of sas um it's still you know founders of sas um it's still you know founders of sas companies 96 companies 96 companies 96 have at least one male founder and have at least one male founder and have at least one male founder and last year it was either 10 or 11 percent last year it was either 10 or 11 percent last year it was either 10 or 11 percent had a female founder and um looks like had a female founder and um looks like had a female founder and um looks like we're up to 12 percent now we're up to 12 percent now we're up to 12 percent now and this is actually in line with the and this is actually in line with the and this is actually in line with the trends that we've seen at in-person trends that we've seen at in-person trends that we've seen at in-person microconf events back in 2011 microconf events back in 2011 microconf events back in 2011 it was about three percent women it was about three percent women it was about three percent women attendees and attendees and attendees and the last time we were able to run them the last time we were able to run them the last time we were able to run them which was 2019 we were between 10 and 15 which was 2019 we were between 10 and 15 which was 2019 we were between 10 and 15 percent percent percent of women attendees and always looking to of women attendees and always looking to of women attendees and always looking to push that forward of course um push that forward of course um push that forward of course um but it is something that's slowly but it is something that's slowly but it is something that's slowly changing perhaps you know changing perhaps you know changing perhaps you know i think too slow for a lot of our tastes i think too slow for a lot of our tastes i think too slow for a lot of our tastes but um over time i think we're gonna see but um over time i think we're gonna see but um over time i think we're gonna see you know the expansion of of these you know the expansion of of these you know the expansion of of these demographics you know demographics you know demographics you know becoming more diverse hopefully all becoming more diverse hopefully all becoming more diverse hopefully all right right right let's dig into some company metrics

let's dig into some company metrics let's dig into some company metrics in addition to you how many full-time or in addition to you how many full-time or in addition to you how many full-time or contract employees currently work at contract employees currently work at contract employees currently work at your company your company your company so we there's a lot of single founders as we there's a lot of single founders as we would expect with no employees so that's would expect with no employees so that's would expect with no employees so that's about 38 about 38 about 38 and then between no employees and up to and then between no employees and up to and then between no employees and up to four four four employees were at almost uh what about employees were at almost uh what about employees were at almost uh what about 75 75 75 and that reflects on a lot of the cash and that reflects on a lot of the cash and that reflects on a lot of the cash efficiency efficiency efficiency uh of sas companies as well as uh of sas companies as well as uh of sas companies as well as uh they're more early stage nature you uh they're more early stage nature you uh they're more early stage nature you know of a lot of these but look there's know of a lot of these but look there's know of a lot of these but look there's almost 20 almost 20 almost 20 with five to 19 employees so um there with five to 19 employees so um there with five to 19 employees so um there are definitely some are definitely some are definitely some more advanced companies as you'll see more advanced companies as you'll see more advanced companies as you'll see with mrr later that that are with mrr later that that are with mrr later that that are applying have you raised funding for applying have you raised funding for applying have you raised funding for this company this company this company so we have 14 who raised some type of so we have 14 who raised some type of so we have 14 who raised some type of funding the vast majority was between funding the vast majority was between funding the vast majority was between 100 100 100 000 and 500 000. this was up from it was 000 and 500 000. this was up from it was 000 and 500 000. this was up from it was either 10 or 11 either 10 or 11 either 10 or 11 last year so it's up you know that's last year so it's up you know that's last year so it's up you know that's that's a that's a that's a not inconsequential uh uptick in that not inconsequential uh uptick in that not inconsequential uh uptick in that and and and i subscribe that or ascribe that to i subscribe that or ascribe that to i subscribe that or ascribe that to i think there i mean i predicted this a i think there i mean i predicted this a i think there i mean i predicted this a couple years ago in a microsoft talk couple years ago in a microsoft talk couple years ago in a microsoft talk that it used to be bootstrapped and that it used to be bootstrapped and that it used to be bootstrapped and venture and you either in full control venture and you either in full control venture and you either in full control or you know you or you know you or you know you kind of the meme like you had to sell kind of the meme like you had to sell kind of the meme like you had to sell your soul to the venture capitalist your soul to the venture capitalist your soul to the venture capitalist but there's there's these things that but there's there's these things that but there's there's these things that are in between now there's these are in between now there's these are in between now there's these the bootstrap funding for bootstrappers the bootstrap funding for bootstrappers the bootstrap funding for bootstrappers like tinyseed like indie.bc these are like tinyseed like indie.bc these are like tinyseed like indie.bc these are these are funding that doesn't come with these are funding that doesn't come with these are funding that doesn't come with the typical strings attached and allow the typical strings attached and allow the typical strings attached and allow you to you to you to you know to run an llc and run a you know to run an llc and run a you know to run an llc and run a profitable company and not need to exit

profitable company and not need to exit profitable company and not need to exit in the next three five years or have an in the next three five years or have an in the next three five years or have an ipo and i think we're going to see this ipo and i think we're going to see this ipo and i think we're going to see this trend continue trend continue trend continue where funding is not only available where funding is not only available where funding is not only available without the strings but it also is maybe without the strings but it also is maybe without the strings but it also is maybe destigmatized destigmatized destigmatized um to where it's not a kind of you know um to where it's not a kind of you know um to where it's not a kind of you know religious debate or buying everything if religious debate or buying everything if religious debate or buying everything if i've raised funding or i didn't and so i've raised funding or i didn't and so i've raised funding or i didn't and so i'm in this club but it's like i'm in this club but it's like i'm in this club but it's like i'm i'm bootstrapped or i'm mostly i'm i'm bootstrapped or i'm mostly i'm i'm bootstrapped or i'm mostly bootstrapped you know raising 100 000 bootstrapped you know raising 100 000 bootstrapped you know raising 100 000 you're mostly bootstrapped still it's you're mostly bootstrapped still it's you're mostly bootstrapped still it's not like you suddenly have millions in not like you suddenly have millions in not like you suddenly have millions in your bank your bank your bank so there's some more a lot more so there's some more a lot more so there's some more a lot more information about funding in the report information about funding in the report information about funding in the report this one i think is fun i like that this one i think is fun i like that this one i think is fun i like that which of the categories below best which of the categories below best which of the categories below best describes how you develop the idea for describes how you develop the idea for describes how you develop the idea for this product this product this product or company and the cool part is last or company and the cool part is last or company and the cool part is last year i think we only had two or three year i think we only had two or three year i think we only had two or three selections and a bunch in selections and a bunch in selections and a bunch in other but we expanded it this year such other but we expanded it this year such other but we expanded it this year such that we could um that we could um that we could um have much more detail so 45 was a have much more detail so 45 was a have much more detail so 45 was a problem problem problem that i was experiencing so that i'm that i was experiencing so that i'm that i was experiencing so that i'm eating my own dog food eating my own dog food eating my own dog food i am uh scratching my own itch as the i am uh scratching my own itch as the i am uh scratching my own itch as the you know as the kind of meme says you know as the kind of meme says you know as the kind of meme says what's interesting is i would have what's interesting is i would have what's interesting is i would have expected that number to be higher expected that number to be higher expected that number to be higher the there's a bunch of other problems the there's a bunch of other problems the there's a bunch of other problems that exist that don't necessarily have that exist that don't necessarily have that exist that don't necessarily have to be your problem if you're an aspiring to be your problem if you're an aspiring to be your problem if you're an aspiring founder who doesn't have an idea founder who doesn't have an idea founder who doesn't have an idea think about these other areas to look it think about these other areas to look it think about these other areas to look it may not just be a problem you have may not just be a problem you have may not just be a problem you have maybe it's the 22 percent who saw a maybe it's the 22 percent who saw a maybe it's the 22 percent who saw a problem their customers or their clients problem their customers or their clients problem their customers or their clients were facing were facing were facing maybe it's 12 or 13 almost who maybe it's 12 or 13 almost who maybe it's 12 or 13 almost who experienced a problem at their day job experienced a problem at their day job experienced a problem at their day job and wanted to fix it and wanted to fix it and wanted to fix it eleven percent a problem a friend or eleven percent a problem a friend or eleven percent a problem a friend or relative was experiencing and only eight relative was experiencing and only eight relative was experiencing and only eight percent percent percent was research so keep that in mind like was research so keep that in mind like was research so keep that in mind like seeing problems in everyday life all seeing problems in everyday life all seeing problems in everyday life all around you around you around you are this this is the way you keep that

are this this is the way you keep that are this this is the way you keep that idea notebook you keep that list idea notebook you keep that list idea notebook you keep that list and and you start looking at how you and and you start looking at how you and and you start looking at how you could potentially solve them and have could potentially solve them and have could potentially solve them and have people pay you money for them people pay you money for them people pay you money for them i think it might be time for a break i think it might be time for a break i think it might be time for a break just a little quick joke uh just a little quick joke uh just a little quick joke uh if if you uh haven't been part of a if if you uh haven't been part of a if if you uh haven't been part of a microsoft in the past microsoft in the past microsoft in the past microconf is about some bad jokes people microconf is about some bad jokes people microconf is about some bad jokes people it really is it really is it really is so here's one why don't so here's one why don't so here's one why don't cats make good chairs because they keep dropping the tools because they keep dropping the tools that one's rough i'm sorry about that we that one's rough i'm sorry about that we that one's rough i'm sorry about that we need to laugh track next time because need to laugh track next time because need to laugh track next time because that was that was awful so we're gonna that was that was awful so we're gonna that was that was awful so we're gonna dive into pricing dive into pricing dive into pricing and we talked about last year we had and we talked about last year we had and we talked about last year we had more of a narrow view more of a narrow view more of a narrow view of of pricing we asked about monthly of of pricing we asked about monthly of of pricing we asked about monthly annual and annual and annual and monthly and annual together this year we monthly and annual together this year we monthly and annual together this year we realized when we looked through the realized when we looked through the realized when we looked through the others from last year there were people others from last year there were people others from last year there were people doing metered doing metered doing metered pay as you go revenue share is pretty pay as you go revenue share is pretty pay as you go revenue share is pretty fascinating so uh people could check fascinating so uh people could check fascinating so uh people could check more than one right because if you have more than one right because if you have more than one right because if you have monthly and annual you check both so 47 monthly and annual you check both so 47 monthly and annual you check both so 47 of people said they charge monthly which of people said they charge monthly which of people said they charge monthly which i would expect to be more to be honest i would expect to be more to be honest i would expect to be more to be honest since you can check multiple because since you can check multiple because since you can check multiple because monthly and annual you know i don't know monthly and annual you know i don't know monthly and annual you know i don't know i would think that number would be 70 or i would think that number would be 70 or i would think that number would be 70 or 80 80 80 but 47 36 but 47 36 but 47 36 annual and then 7 metered and and the annual and then 7 metered and and the annual and then 7 metered and and the rest rest rest these next four i find especially the these next four i find especially the these next four i find especially the next three i find really interesting next three i find really interesting next three i find really interesting these are all about free trial credit these are all about free trial credit these are all about free trial credit card before free trial and freemium card before free trial and freemium card before free trial and freemium and these all shifted from last year to and these all shifted from last year to and these all shifted from last year to this year in a this year in a this year in a way that i i've been talking about on way that i i've been talking about on way that i i've been talking about on the podcast and i had the podcast and i had the podcast and i had predicted in my microconf europe talk in predicted in my microconf europe talk in predicted in my microconf europe talk in 2019

2019 2019 do you offer a free trial for your do you offer a free trial for your do you offer a free trial for your product so 71 product so 71 product so 71 said yes last year that number was 64 said yes last year that number was 64 said yes last year that number was 64 percent so percent so percent so we need to see this trend over many we need to see this trend over many we need to see this trend over many years and maybe it's a blip this year years and maybe it's a blip this year years and maybe it's a blip this year but but but i'm curious to see three four five years i'm curious to see three four five years i'm curious to see three four five years does that free trial just continue is it does that free trial just continue is it does that free trial just continue is it 73 74 next year is it 78 the year after 73 74 next year is it 78 the year after 73 74 next year is it 78 the year after it's going to be really interesting to it's going to be really interesting to it's going to be really interesting to see so again it was 64 free trial see so again it was 64 free trial see so again it was 64 free trial last year and we're at 71 this year last year and we're at 71 this year last year and we're at 71 this year and then this one is when a customer and then this one is when a customer and then this one is when a customer registers for a free trial registers for a free trial registers for a free trial does the company uh record do you does the company uh record do you does the company uh record do you require a credit card upfront in order require a credit card upfront in order require a credit card upfront in order to in order to get the trial to in order to get the trial to in order to get the trial and the yes this year was 21 and the yes this year was 21 and the yes this year was 21 and last year the yes was i think it was and last year the yes was i think it was and last year the yes was i think it was 25 it was in the 25 to 27 25 it was in the 25 to 27 25 it was in the 25 to 27 range so moving the free line not even range so moving the free line not even range so moving the free line not even the free line moving the ease of getting the free line moving the ease of getting the free line moving the ease of getting into your or your application into your or your application into your or your application line right uh fewer credit cards is line right uh fewer credit cards is line right uh fewer credit cards is going to result in more leads going to result in more leads going to result in more leads you then own the lead and you need to you then own the lead and you need to you then own the lead and you need to figure out how to convert them so i'm figure out how to convert them so i'm figure out how to convert them so i'm not saying everyone should do this not saying everyone should do this not saying everyone should do this especially early on especially early on especially early on in your um i think in your app's in your um i think in your app's in your um i think in your app's lifetime it can be lifetime it can be lifetime it can be easy to try to just have freemium and easy to try to just have freemium and easy to try to just have freemium and let everyone in and not take feedback let everyone in and not take feedback let everyone in and not take feedback from the right people from the right people from the right people but once you've kind of nailed it and but once you've kind of nailed it and but once you've kind of nailed it and you start to scale it i do think that you start to scale it i do think that you start to scale it i do think that moving the free line is really an moving the free line is really an moving the free line is really an interesting idea for those who kind of interesting idea for those who kind of interesting idea for those who kind of have a hold on their numbers have a hold on their numbers have a hold on their numbers similarly with a forever free plan 27 similarly with a forever free plan 27 similarly with a forever free plan 27 said yes this year last year it was 21 said yes this year last year it was 21 said yes this year last year it was 21 so six percent more but i mean if six so six percent more but i mean if six so six percent more but i mean if six percent percent percent compared to 21 is almost a third right

compared to 21 is almost a third right compared to 21 is almost a third right it's like it's like it's like yeah almost a third more people more yeah almost a third more people more yeah almost a third more people more companies are offering forever free companies are offering forever free companies are offering forever free plans plans plans forever free plans can be dangerous if forever free plans can be dangerous if forever free plans can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing it's you don't know what you're doing it's you don't know what you're doing it's easy to like a samurai sword easy to cut easy to like a samurai sword easy to cut easy to like a samurai sword easy to cut your arm off it but if you're a master your arm off it but if you're a master your arm off it but if you're a master with it you can do some amazing things with it you can do some amazing things with it you can do some amazing things and forever and forever and forever free plans can work uh it's not free plans can work uh it's not free plans can work uh it's not something i would necessarily recommend something i would necessarily recommend something i would necessarily recommend for everyone lastly we didn't ask this for everyone lastly we didn't ask this for everyone lastly we didn't ask this one last year one last year one last year so i'm curious to see the trend i was so i'm curious to see the trend i was so i'm curious to see the trend i was surprised that almost 26 surprised that almost 26 surprised that almost 26 of of the sas companies that were you of of the sas companies that were you of of the sas companies that were you know respond to this survey know respond to this survey know respond to this survey said that they charge some kind of setup said that they charge some kind of setup said that they charge some kind of setup fee and so we'll keep tracking that over fee and so we'll keep tracking that over fee and so we'll keep tracking that over over the years but obviously over the years but obviously over the years but obviously ideas you know if you're not charging ideas you know if you're not charging ideas you know if you're not charging one and you feel like it might be one and you feel like it might be one and you feel like it might be something you want to think about something you want to think about something you want to think about there we go section 4 sas metrics there we go section 4 sas metrics there we go section 4 sas metrics monthly recurring revenue and you'll see monthly recurring revenue and you'll see monthly recurring revenue and you'll see in the graph the yellow is in the graph the yellow is in the graph the yellow is this year's and the blue is last year's this year's and the blue is last year's this year's and the blue is last year's and we have definitely edged a little and we have definitely edged a little and we have definitely edged a little more towards more towards more towards uh the later stage there are fewer early uh the later stage there are fewer early uh the later stage there are fewer early stage folks stage folks stage folks but the graph is very similar to last but the graph is very similar to last but the graph is very similar to last year where it's it's not a bell curve year where it's it's not a bell curve year where it's it's not a bell curve but it's just a sliding curve of but it's just a sliding curve of but it's just a sliding curve of it's like a funnel more people make it it's like a funnel more people make it it's like a funnel more people make it to higher revenue marks to higher revenue marks to higher revenue marks pretty much almost without exception and pretty much almost without exception and pretty much almost without exception and that's the way you think about it that's the way you think about it that's the way you think about it you know if there's if i'm making up you know if there's if i'm making up you know if there's if i'm making up numbers a million people with an idea or numbers a million people with an idea or numbers a million people with an idea or who want to have an idea and who want to have an idea and who want to have an idea and the 200 000 come up with the idea and the 200 000 come up with the idea and the 200 000 come up with the idea and then 40 000 actually build and launch then 40 000 actually build and launch then 40 000 actually build and launch something something something and then 10 000 actually get to you know and then 10 000 actually get to you know and then 10 000 actually get to you know less than 1 000 i mean this is the less than 1 000 i mean this is the less than 1 000 i mean this is the pattern that we see i think in pattern that we see i think in pattern that we see i think in communities like like communities like like communities like like the microcosms the indie hackers and and the microcosms the indie hackers and and the microcosms the indie hackers and and so on so on so on over the past three months what was your

over the past three months what was your over the past three months what was your average revenue churn average revenue churn average revenue churn uh what's really interesting i would uh what's really interesting i would uh what's really interesting i would actually think this would be higher but actually think this would be higher but actually think this would be higher but i guess since we're dealing with later i guess since we're dealing with later i guess since we're dealing with later stage companies they've they figured a stage companies they've they figured a stage companies they've they figured a lot of this out lot of this out lot of this out net negative churn almost 13 of net negative churn almost 13 of net negative churn almost 13 of companies that's companies that's companies that's awesome that's like the golden ticket of awesome that's like the golden ticket of awesome that's like the golden ticket of sas less than one percent churn sas less than one percent churn sas less than one percent churn almost a fifth of companies and less almost a fifth of companies and less almost a fifth of companies and less than than than you know from net negative all the way you know from net negative all the way you know from net negative all the way to uh less than three percent to uh less than three percent to uh less than three percent is it's what about sixty fifty sixty is it's what about sixty fifty sixty is it's what about sixty fifty sixty percent percent percent of companies so it's a lot of companies of companies so it's a lot of companies of companies so it's a lot of companies are down in that really nice tight low are down in that really nice tight low are down in that really nice tight low churn range i also find it interesting churn range i also find it interesting churn range i also find it interesting that what about eighteen percent of that what about eighteen percent of that what about eighteen percent of companies don't know their churn companies don't know their churn companies don't know their churn my hope is that's because they my hope is that's because they my hope is that's because they are so early stage that the churn is are so early stage that the churn is are so early stage that the churn is bouncing all over the place because if bouncing all over the place because if bouncing all over the place because if you are at you are at you are at 5k 10k or up and you don't know your 5k 10k or up and you don't know your 5k 10k or up and you don't know your current that's that's a problem so current that's that's a problem so current that's that's a problem so that's something that's something that's something you're going to want to know about so you're going to want to know about so you're going to want to know about so look at some growth this is perhaps the look at some growth this is perhaps the look at some growth this is perhaps the most interesting section of most interesting section of most interesting section of of the report at both years this is of the report at both years this is of the report at both years this is where we look at the growth where we look at the growth where we look at the growth of each individual company how many of each individual company how many of each individual company how many thousands of mrr thousands of mrr thousands of mrr per month that grew in every month of per month that grew in every month of per month that grew in every month of its lifetime since first paying customer its lifetime since first paying customer its lifetime since first paying customer until the time of the survey then we until the time of the survey then we until the time of the survey then we correlate that correlate that correlate that with different factors like number of with different factors like number of with different factors like number of founders founders founders so does more founders correlate to you so does more founders correlate to you so does more founders correlate to you know faster growth know faster growth know faster growth uh what are some other things we look at uh what are some other things we look at uh what are some other things we look at churn and ltv and nps all these things i churn and ltv and nps all these things i churn and ltv and nps all these things i want to remind you that correlation does want to remind you that correlation does want to remind you that correlation does not equal causation so we can't say not equal causation so we can't say not equal causation so we can't say well having three founders implies that well having three founders implies that well having three founders implies that you'll have faster growth you'll have faster growth you'll have faster growth it just says that those two things have

it just says that those two things have it just says that those two things have moved in lockstep uh for these companies moved in lockstep uh for these companies moved in lockstep uh for these companies so first one is founder count versus so first one is founder count versus so first one is founder count versus growth and what's interesting here is growth and what's interesting here is growth and what's interesting here is last year last year last year this just went up and to the right and this just went up and to the right and this just went up and to the right and so two was better than one so two was better than one so two was better than one better two correlated with with faster better two correlated with with faster better two correlated with with faster growth three faster growth and two and growth three faster growth and two and growth three faster growth and two and four was faster growth than three i four was faster growth than three i four was faster growth than three i found that puzzling found that puzzling found that puzzling because i at a certain point i feel like because i at a certain point i feel like because i at a certain point i feel like there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen and you know does the app really benefit and you know does the app really benefit and you know does the app really benefit or does your company really benefit from or does your company really benefit from or does your company really benefit from having that many founders having that many founders having that many founders this one is more in line with i think this one is more in line with i think this one is more in line with i think maybe a personal kind of sense that i maybe a personal kind of sense that i maybe a personal kind of sense that i have have have um but where once you have four or more um but where once you have four or more um but where once you have four or more there's perhaps there's perhaps there's perhaps uh you know decreasing uh you know i uh you know decreasing uh you know i uh you know decreasing uh you know i guess like decreasing returns on it guess like decreasing returns on it guess like decreasing returns on it but who knows we'll see when we get to but who knows we'll see when we get to but who knows we'll see when we get to year three the 2022 state of year three the 2022 state of year three the 2022 state of independence has to see if this pattern independence has to see if this pattern independence has to see if this pattern holds or not the other thing to think holds or not the other thing to think holds or not the other thing to think about is if you're trying to get to about is if you're trying to get to about is if you're trying to get to default alive or just trying to get to default alive or just trying to get to default alive or just trying to get to where you can quit your day job where you can quit your day job where you can quit your day job realistically if you have one founder realistically if you have one founder realistically if you have one founder versus two you probably need you versus two you probably need you versus two you probably need you probably want to go twice as fast in probably want to go twice as fast in probably want to go twice as fast in order to order to order to get to the same quit your day job date get to the same quit your day job date get to the same quit your day job date and if you have three versus one it and if you have three versus one it and if you have three versus one it should be three times as fast and that's should be three times as fast and that's should be three times as fast and that's not quite true with this graph but not quite true with this graph but not quite true with this graph but anyways it's interesting to look at anyways it's interesting to look at anyways it's interesting to look at nonetheless founder hours versus growth nonetheless founder hours versus growth nonetheless founder hours versus growth and while and while and while it basically says the more hours the it basically says the more hours the it basically says the more hours the founders work uh the founders work uh the founders work uh the it's correlated with faster growth well it's correlated with faster growth well it's correlated with faster growth well i wish that wasn't the case because i i wish that wasn't the case because i i wish that wasn't the case because i wish that i could work 10 or 20 hours a wish that i could work 10 or 20 hours a wish that i could work 10 or 20 hours a week and still have faster growth week and still have faster growth week and still have faster growth i think you can look at this two ways i think you can look at this two ways i think you can look at this two ways one yes probably investing one yes probably investing one yes probably investing more time i think within reason i mean more time i think within reason i mean more time i think within reason i mean once you get to above 40 50 hours once you get to above 40 50 hours once you get to above 40 50 hours it's decreasing returns but within

it's decreasing returns but within it's decreasing returns but within reason reason reason um more time is gonna probably get you um more time is gonna probably get you um more time is gonna probably get you more progress especially in the early more progress especially in the early more progress especially in the early days where you're just kind of grinding days where you're just kind of grinding days where you're just kind of grinding it out it out it out the other thing to think about is the other thing to think about is the other thing to think about is perhaps the apps that are growing perhaps the apps that are growing perhaps the apps that are growing faster that are growing faster faster that are growing faster faster that are growing faster are the ones yeah there is um sorry i got distracted yeah there is um sorry i got distracted there but the there but the there but the it's growing faster but it's growing faster but it's growing faster but an app that's growing faster might an app that's growing faster might an app that's growing faster might make uh motivate the founder to focus make uh motivate the founder to focus make uh motivate the founder to focus more on their company more on their company more on their company right so if the app starts doubling right so if the app starts doubling right so if the app starts doubling doubling doubling well then i'm gonna doubling doubling well then i'm gonna doubling doubling well then i'm gonna quit my day job now i can work 40 hours quit my day job now i can work 40 hours quit my day job now i can work 40 hours that type of thing all right ideal customer this definitely all right ideal customer this definitely falls in line i think with falls in line i think with falls in line i think with traditional i think that the wisdom traditional i think that the wisdom traditional i think that the wisdom traditional traditional wisdom you would traditional traditional wisdom you would traditional traditional wisdom you would hear from the microcom stage hear from the microcom stage hear from the microcom stage and things that you know i've been and things that you know i've been and things that you know i've been talking about for years on the podcast talking about for years on the podcast talking about for years on the podcast bigger customers tend to pay you more bigger customers tend to pay you more bigger customers tend to pay you more money and therefore your company does money and therefore your company does money and therefore your company does grow faster now there's a headache grow faster now there's a headache grow faster now there's a headache factor of dealing with them factor of dealing with them factor of dealing with them obviously you know dealing with a obviously you know dealing with a obviously you know dealing with a company that's 250 company that's 250 company that's 250 employees versus one that's five there's employees versus one that's five there's employees versus one that's five there's a lot more decision makers a lot more decision makers a lot more decision makers probably need soc2 compliance or a probably need soc2 compliance or a probably need soc2 compliance or a google audit in order to uh to do that google audit in order to uh to do that google audit in order to uh to do that but but but in general consumers churn more it's you in general consumers churn more it's you in general consumers churn more it's you know it's harder to know it's harder to know it's harder to they have lower lifetime value as a they have lower lifetime value as a they have lower lifetime value as a targeted market there is that anomaly targeted market there is that anomaly targeted market there is that anomaly you'll see with the um you'll see with the um you'll see with the um uh kind of aspiring entrepreneurs and uh kind of aspiring entrepreneurs and uh kind of aspiring entrepreneurs and there's a lot of influencers in that there's a lot of influencers in that there's a lot of influencers in that space and if you space and if you space and if you get traction with them like you know get traction with them like you know get traction with them like you know they say leadpages did and you do a lot they say leadpages did and you do a lot they say leadpages did and you do a lot of marketing you can get

of marketing you can get of marketing you can get really fast growth early on even if really fast growth early on even if really fast growth early on even if there's high churn uh but so there's high churn uh but so there's high churn uh but so that's what i'm seeing in this graph that's what i'm seeing in this graph that's what i'm seeing in this graph forever free forever free forever free versus growth and actually there's free versus growth and actually there's free versus growth and actually there's free trial versus no trial versus no trial versus no versus no free trial and then forever versus no free trial and then forever versus no free trial and then forever free versus no free trial free versus no free trial free versus no free trial and so free trial only let's see if you and so free trial only let's see if you and so free trial only let's see if you don't have a free trial don't have a free trial don't have a free trial which i i'm guessing is more of like a which i i'm guessing is more of like a which i i'm guessing is more of like a demo flow which probably means you have demo flow which probably means you have demo flow which probably means you have a higher price a higher price a higher price then there is you know look it's up then there is you know look it's up then there is you know look it's up about 13.50 versus let's say around about 13.50 versus let's say around about 13.50 versus let's say around 1000 or eleven hundred so maybe a twenty 1000 or eleven hundred so maybe a twenty 1000 or eleven hundred so maybe a twenty percent faster growth percent faster growth percent faster growth correlated with not having a free trial correlated with not having a free trial correlated with not having a free trial and again that's not to say i should go and again that's not to say i should go and again that's not to say i should go out and remove my free trial today out and remove my free trial today out and remove my free trial today but you know perhaps it's the business but you know perhaps it's the business but you know perhaps it's the business models that that attack that have have models that that attack that have have models that that attack that have have demos and then forever free plan yes or demos and then forever free plan yes or demos and then forever free plan yes or no no no pretty close looks like it's about 10 pretty close looks like it's about 10 pretty close looks like it's about 10 difference to me it's it's not worth difference to me it's it's not worth difference to me it's it's not worth um that's you know that's so close that um that's you know that's so close that um that's you know that's so close that it almost doesn't matter it almost doesn't matter it almost doesn't matter credit card up front uh before a free credit card up front uh before a free credit card up front uh before a free trial trial trial and you'll see that um asking for credit and you'll see that um asking for credit and you'll see that um asking for credit card is just over twelve hundred card is just over twelve hundred card is just over twelve hundred and not is around a thousand so about and not is around a thousand so about and not is around a thousand so about twenty percent faster if you have a free twenty percent faster if you have a free twenty percent faster if you have a free trial asking for trial asking for trial asking for uh credit card and i feel like maybe uh credit card and i feel like maybe uh credit card and i feel like maybe some more mature some more mature some more mature businesses move towards that that could businesses move towards that that could businesses move towards that that could imply that imply that imply that this one right in line with exactly what this one right in line with exactly what this one right in line with exactly what i would think right i would think right i would think right lifetime value is a it's inspired a lot lifetime value is a it's inspired a lot lifetime value is a it's inspired a lot by your price point by your price point by your price point higher price point typically higher higher price point typically higher higher price point typically higher lifetime value and also lifetime value and also lifetime value and also churn the lower your turn the higher churn the lower your turn the higher churn the lower your turn the higher your lifetime value so if you have a low your lifetime value so if you have a low your lifetime value so if you have a low turn turn turn high you know monthly fee or annual fee

high you know monthly fee or annual fee high you know monthly fee or annual fee i would expect your company to be i would expect your company to be i would expect your company to be growing faster and that is essentially growing faster and that is essentially growing faster and that is essentially what this graph says those two what this graph says those two what this graph says those two correlate okay we're in the home stretch correlate okay we're in the home stretch correlate okay we're in the home stretch the marketing extras and i need to i need to tell you joke and i need to i need to tell you joke before we do it so before we do it so before we do it so um do you know why html um do you know why html um do you know why html developers don't like restaurants developers don't like restaurants developers don't like restaurants because they hate the table layout thank you yeah we got some sound effects thank you yeah we got some sound effects html developers did i just say that html developers did i just say that html developers did i just say that front end developers is what i meant front end developers is what i meant front end developers is what i meant sorry hello 2009 called it wants its sorry hello 2009 called it wants its sorry hello 2009 called it wants its verbage back verbage back verbage back all right advertising versus growth um all right advertising versus growth um all right advertising versus growth um this is a good one so again we're this is a good one so again we're this is a good one so again we're correlating growth with different ad correlating growth with different ad correlating growth with different ad channels and one thing you'll know if channels and one thing you'll know if channels and one thing you'll know if you look all the way to the right of you look all the way to the right of you look all the way to the right of this graph there's an other with this graph there's an other with this graph there's an other with quite a few uh with a lot of growth and quite a few uh with a lot of growth and quite a few uh with a lot of growth and so we're going to dig into the other so we're going to dig into the other so we're going to dig into the other results and results and results and probably break them out next year so probably break them out next year so probably break them out next year so that we can you know dissect that a that we can you know dissect that a that we can you know dissect that a little further little further little further i'm actually surprised and pleasantly i'm actually surprised and pleasantly i'm actually surprised and pleasantly surprised as someone who runs events surprised as someone who runs events surprised as someone who runs events through microconf that event through microconf that event through microconf that event sponsorships sponsorships sponsorships folks who use event sponsorships as um folks who use event sponsorships as um folks who use event sponsorships as um as as as advertising and as lead gen are actually advertising and as lead gen are actually advertising and as lead gen are actually growing growing growing quite quickly and then you'll see quite quickly and then you'll see quite quickly and then you'll see actually i can't see in the graph it's actually i can't see in the graph it's actually i can't see in the graph it's interesting it's covered by a interesting it's covered by a interesting it's covered by a little piece of something on my screen little piece of something on my screen little piece of something on my screen oh it's twitter and linkedin ads oh it's twitter and linkedin ads oh it's twitter and linkedin ads so linkedin i'm not actually surprised so linkedin i'm not actually surprised so linkedin i'm not actually surprised by because if you're going b2b or beta by because if you're going b2b or beta by because if you're going b2b or beta enterprise enterprise enterprise i think you'd be growing twitter i am i think you'd be growing twitter i am i think you'd be growing twitter i am surprised by so that's surprised by so that's surprised by so that's i don't know have you looked into i don't know have you looked into i don't know have you looked into twitter ads kind of an interesting thing

twitter ads kind of an interesting thing twitter ads kind of an interesting thing and then of course uh you know google and then of course uh you know google and then of course uh you know google and facebook and facebook and facebook down a little lower but i think i wonder down a little lower but i think i wonder down a little lower but i think i wonder if our are fewer people using them and if our are fewer people using them and if our are fewer people using them and so they're so they're so they're less expensive roll it into the home less expensive roll it into the home less expensive roll it into the home stretch i think we just have a couple a stretch i think we just have a couple a stretch i think we just have a couple a couple left couple left couple left which marketing activities have had the which marketing activities have had the which marketing activities have had the most impact on your revenue most impact on your revenue most impact on your revenue this year word of mouth obviously number this year word of mouth obviously number this year word of mouth obviously number one the strong one the strong one the strong um kind of lavender color over there 22 um kind of lavender color over there 22 um kind of lavender color over there 22 percent percent percent seo and then you'll see like the next seo and then you'll see like the next seo and then you'll see like the next three are seo three are seo three are seo and or next to i guess our seo and and or next to i guess our seo and and or next to i guess our seo and content marketing which kind of content marketing which kind of content marketing which kind of go hand in hand uh and then email uh i go hand in hand uh and then email uh i go hand in hand uh and then email uh i don't know i guess it's partnerships and don't know i guess it's partnerships and don't know i guess it's partnerships and email marketing after that so email marketing after that so email marketing after that so those are the big five right those those are the big five right those those are the big five right those that's what a lot of people talk about that's what a lot of people talk about that's what a lot of people talk about and uh i think if you're not leveraging and uh i think if you're not leveraging and uh i think if you're not leveraging three three three three of those five you're probably three of those five you're probably three of those five you're probably probably missing out probably missing out probably missing out last lee before we get to questions if last lee before we get to questions if last lee before we get to questions if you have your questions please post them you have your questions please post them you have your questions please post them in and producer xander we'll be in and producer xander we'll be in and producer xander we'll be sending them my way as soon as we wrap sending them my way as soon as we wrap sending them my way as soon as we wrap um in-person and digital event um in-person and digital event um in-person and digital event attendance attendance attendance versus growth it's kind of we kind of versus growth it's kind of we kind of versus growth it's kind of we kind of asked it tongue-in-cheek the very first asked it tongue-in-cheek the very first asked it tongue-in-cheek the very first year of like well i wonder if it'll show year of like well i wonder if it'll show year of like well i wonder if it'll show that the more events you attend that the more events you attend that the more events you attend the faster your growth and it kind i the faster your growth and it kind i the faster your growth and it kind i mean it kind of does although the the mean it kind of does although the the mean it kind of does although the the decreasing returns is after 13 decreasing returns is after 13 decreasing returns is after 13 after 13 events so don't go to 13 or after 13 events so don't go to 13 or after 13 events so don't go to 13 or more events more events more events again this is correlation not causation again this is correlation not causation again this is correlation not causation but thank you so much for joining but thank you so much for joining but thank you so much for joining i would love it if you would tweet with i would love it if you would tweet with i would love it if you would tweet with hashtag hashtag hashtag microconf and link to microconf and link to microconf and link to stateofindysass.com to spread the word stateofindysass.com to spread the word stateofindysass.com to spread the word about this report the report is free about this report the report is free about this report the report is free people can download it they just have to people can download it they just have to people can download it they just have to enter their email and again we've put enter their email and again we've put enter their email and again we've put hundreds of hours thousands of dollars

hundreds of hours thousands of dollars hundreds of hours thousands of dollars into developing this and the more into developing this and the more into developing this and the more founders that can get this in their founders that can get this in their founders that can get this in their hands uh we would love it we've also hands uh we would love it we've also hands uh we would love it we've also posted to posted to posted to hacker news and indie hackers if you're hacker news and indie hackers if you're hacker news and indie hackers if you're on there and could on there and could on there and could look for our post about the state of look for our post about the state of look for our post about the state of independence sas independence sas independence sas that would be great and i'd love to have that would be great and i'd love to have that would be great and i'd love to have you love to have you you love to have you you love to have you participate next year if you didn't this participate next year if you didn't this participate next year if you didn't this year get on our microphone mailing list year get on our microphone mailing list year get on our microphone mailing list we don't email that frequently and we'll we don't email that frequently and we'll we don't email that frequently and we'll let you know when the next let you know when the next let you know when the next survey opens and with that survey opens and with that survey opens and with that we're going to roll into questions flip in here to my handy dandy question flip in here to my handy dandy question doc doc doc okay yeah yeah yeah okay this is a good okay yeah yeah yeah okay this is a good okay yeah yeah yeah okay this is a good question from somori question from somori question from somori he's a frequent microcomp attendee he he's a frequent microcomp attendee he he's a frequent microcomp attendee he says are you a founder if you bought the says are you a founder if you bought the says are you a founder if you bought the sas business from a previous team and sas business from a previous team and sas business from a previous team and you plan on moving in a different you plan on moving in a different you plan on moving in a different direction direction direction i mean yes for the state of independent i mean yes for the state of independent i mean yes for the state of independent sas we do consider and for microconf i sas we do consider and for microconf i sas we do consider and for microconf i mean you're running a business you're mean you're running a business you're mean you're running a business you're the owner of the business the owner of the business the owner of the business i think we get tired of it's like we i think we get tired of it's like we i think we get tired of it's like we could say the ceo but some founders could say the ceo but some founders could say the ceo but some founders aren't the ceo we could say the business aren't the ceo we could say the business aren't the ceo we could say the business owner but that's cumbersome owner but that's cumbersome owner but that's cumbersome we do use the term founder i know we do use the term founder i know we do use the term founder i know technically that means i found it i technically that means i found it i technically that means i found it i started the business started the business started the business but in the state of uh you know in this but in the state of uh you know in this but in the state of uh you know in this survey we actually do have a spot of you survey we actually do have a spot of you survey we actually do have a spot of you know how did you come up with the know how did you come up with the know how did you come up with the business idea business idea business idea and you'll see there was i purchased the and you'll see there was i purchased the and you'll see there was i purchased the the company that was one the company that was one the company that was one option so i would say yes does the data option so i would say yes does the data option so i would say yes does the data about accepting funding include about accepting funding include about accepting funding include non-dilutive funding you know non-dilutive funding you know non-dilutive funding you know we didn't specific non-diluted funding we didn't specific non-diluted funding we didn't specific non-diluted funding are things like grants are things like grants are things like grants um i suppose a loan you know like a um i suppose a loan you know like a um i suppose a loan you know like a revenue-based financing revenue-based financing revenue-based financing we didn't ask specifically about that

we didn't ask specifically about that we didn't ask specifically about that but producer sander if we could make a but producer sander if we could make a but producer sander if we could make a note of that note of that note of that for next year because that would be for next year because that would be for next year because that would be interesting to to interesting to to interesting to to sift that out you know i sift that out you know i sift that out you know i actually now that i'm thinking about it actually now that i'm thinking about it actually now that i'm thinking about it i remember the slide that says the i remember the slide that says the i remember the slide that says the funding types which obviously wasn't in funding types which obviously wasn't in funding types which obviously wasn't in this this this talk for for time purposes but in the talk for for time purposes but in the talk for for time purposes but in the actual deck itself or in the pdf actual deck itself or in the pdf actual deck itself or in the pdf i do believe we broke it down and rbf is i do believe we broke it down and rbf is i do believe we broke it down and rbf is one of them i don't know if we have one of them i don't know if we have one of them i don't know if we have grants in there though so that's grants in there though so that's grants in there though so that's that's uh good all right why do you that's uh good all right why do you that's uh good all right why do you think the trend is moving think the trend is moving think the trend is moving towards freemium okay yeah so this is a towards freemium okay yeah so this is a towards freemium okay yeah so this is a good question i think the good question i think the good question i think the the trend has been moving that way for a the trend has been moving that way for a the trend has been moving that way for a while i think in the 2005 to 2010 while i think in the 2005 to 2010 while i think in the 2005 to 2010 time frame i remember a lot of people time frame i remember a lot of people time frame i remember a lot of people doing freemium it was the big kind of i doing freemium it was the big kind of i doing freemium it was the big kind of i raised venture funding and i want to get raised venture funding and i want to get raised venture funding and i want to get as many users as many users as many users as many free users as i can so that i as many free users as i can so that i as many free users as i can so that i can go public type thing can go public type thing can go public type thing then that kind of died off and it then that kind of died off and it then that kind of died off and it switched and as we started bootstrapping switched and as we started bootstrapping switched and as we started bootstrapping and and and building real businesses charging real building real businesses charging real building real businesses charging real money to real customers money to real customers money to real customers it became we kind of wanted to to prove it became we kind of wanted to to prove it became we kind of wanted to to prove it up front that a customer is willing it up front that a customer is willing it up front that a customer is willing to pay us before we spent the time to pay us before we spent the time to pay us before we spent the time to pay for costly servers and and costly to pay for costly servers and and costly to pay for costly servers and and costly development time and all that development time and all that development time and all that things have gotten cheaper they've also things have gotten cheaper they've also things have gotten cheaper they've also gotten more with aws gotten more with aws gotten more with aws and and heroku and all that things have and and heroku and all that things have and and heroku and all that things have also gotten more competitive also gotten more competitive also gotten more competitive and i think that's where the freemium and i think that's where the freemium and i think that's where the freemium and removing the and removing the and removing the credit card comes in is if you're in a credit card comes in is if you're in a credit card comes in is if you're in a space with 10 competitors and one space with 10 competitors and one space with 10 competitors and one competitor goes freemium or one competitor goes freemium or one competitor goes freemium or one competitor removes that credit card competitor removes that credit card competitor removes that credit card requirement requirement requirement they are now owning more of the leads they are now owning more of the leads they are now owning more of the leads and over time they will eat and over time they will eat and over time they will eat in to you know they'll eat into the

in to you know they'll eat into the in to you know they'll eat into the market market market um so that's that's the trend i would um so that's that's the trend i would um so that's that's the trend i would expect it expect it expect it you know to continue for better or worse you know to continue for better or worse you know to continue for better or worse and i i think again in the early days and i i think again in the early days and i i think again in the early days you're having conversations you're you're having conversations you're you're having conversations you're getting early customers in who are getting early customers in who are getting early customers in who are willing to pay willing to pay willing to pay but at a certain point it's something to but at a certain point it's something to but at a certain point it's something to consider i'm still really consider i'm still really consider i'm still really you know i won't say on the fence yeah i you know i won't say on the fence yeah i you know i won't say on the fence yeah i guess on the fence about when and guess on the fence about when and guess on the fence about when and exactly exactly exactly uh how you should do it i've actually uh how you should do it i've actually uh how you should do it i've actually had ruben gomez on had ruben gomez on had ruben gomez on startups for the rest of us if you startups for the rest of us if you startups for the rest of us if you haven't checked that out it's podcast to haven't checked that out it's podcast to haven't checked that out it's podcast to record every week record every week record every week and we talked specifically about some and we talked specifically about some and we talked specifically about some instances when you should consider instances when you should consider instances when you should consider freemium freemium freemium and when you should not so if you search and when you should not so if you search and when you should not so if you search his name uh we talked through three or his name uh we talked through three or his name uh we talked through three or four things that if you four things that if you four things that if you these are in place you really shouldn't these are in place you really shouldn't these are in place you really shouldn't do freemium because every space do freemium because every space do freemium because every space doesn't support it very well and with doesn't support it very well and with doesn't support it very well and with that that that all right i know we have another all right i know we have another all right i know we have another question maybe the lab well yeah question maybe the lab well yeah question maybe the lab well yeah last question unless another one comes last question unless another one comes last question unless another one comes in soon interesting in soon interesting in soon interesting that you focus on mrr dollar growth per that you focus on mrr dollar growth per that you focus on mrr dollar growth per month wouldn't percentage be more month wouldn't percentage be more month wouldn't percentage be more relevant after relevant after relevant after a certain mrr level a certain mrr level a certain mrr level you know perhaps but the problem with you know perhaps but the problem with you know perhaps but the problem with percentages percentages percentages is if we say i'm making a thousand is if we say i'm making a thousand is if we say i'm making a thousand dollars an mrr dollars an mrr dollars an mrr and i grew and i grow by a hundred and i grew and i grow by a hundred and i grew and i grow by a hundred percent this month percent this month percent this month then i'm at two thousand dollars mrr but then i'm at two thousand dollars mrr but then i'm at two thousand dollars mrr but if i'm at if i'm at if i'm at a hundred k and i grow by a hundred a hundred k and i grow by a hundred a hundred k and i grow by a hundred percent i have to grow percent i have to grow percent i have to grow another 100k to go to 200k so another 100k to go to 200k so another 100k to go to 200k so percentages b they change over time it's percentages b they change over time it's percentages b they change over time it's a sliding scale a sliding scale a sliding scale and so that's that's why we do absolute and so that's that's why we do absolute and so that's that's why we do absolute dollar amount dollar amount dollar amount um because frankly if you have an engine

um because frankly if you have an engine um because frankly if you have an engine that is driving that is driving that is driving x amount of visitors per month that can x amount of visitors per month that can x amount of visitors per month that can x amount convert to trial and ex of x amount convert to trial and ex of x amount convert to trial and ex of those those those convert to paid that engine will give convert to paid that engine will give convert to paid that engine will give you you you not linear percentage growth but it will not linear percentage growth but it will not linear percentage growth but it will give you linear dollar growth give you linear dollar growth give you linear dollar growth right 100 to ten right 100 to ten right 100 to ten to five through the funnel will give you to five through the funnel will give you to five through the funnel will give you five new paying customers every month five new paying customers every month five new paying customers every month and if you're charging fifty dollars a and if you're charging fifty dollars a and if you're charging fifty dollars a month that's 250 month that's 250 month that's 250 every month every month that's great so every month every month that's great so every month every month that's great so that's a linear growth curve but if you that's a linear growth curve but if you that's a linear growth curve but if you look at the percentages it will decrease look at the percentages it will decrease look at the percentages it will decrease over time as your mrr goes up over time as your mrr goes up over time as your mrr goes up which makes percentages i'll say a which makes percentages i'll say a which makes percentages i'll say a non-ideal non-ideal non-ideal metric or way to look at this kind of metric or way to look at this kind of metric or way to look at this kind of growth growth growth and with that we're going to wrap up and with that we're going to wrap up and with that we're going to wrap up thanks again for thanks again for thanks again for for joining for sticking around for the for joining for sticking around for the for joining for sticking around for the questions if you have any additional questions if you have any additional questions if you have any additional questions questions questions you can feel free to ask them in the you can feel free to ask them in the you can feel free to ask them in the slack we'll be paying attention there slack we'll be paying attention there slack we'll be paying attention there obviously you can always tweet at us i'm obviously you can always tweet at us i'm obviously you can always tweet at us i'm at rob walling at rob walling at rob walling and at microcomp great to have you and at microcomp great to have you and at microcomp great to have you joining us today joining us today joining us today and we'll be running this survey again and we'll be running this survey again and we'll be running this survey again in probably august or september and have in probably august or september and have in probably august or september and have another report the third annual another report the third annual another report the third annual state of indy sas for 2022 coming out state of indy sas for 2022 coming out state of indy sas for 2022 coming out again to you next year again to you next year again to you next year thanks to the rest of the microcof team thanks to the rest of the microcof team thanks to the rest of the microcof team and producer xander and producer xander and producer xander for uh helping me fight through all my for uh helping me fight through all my for uh helping me fight through all my technical issues today technical issues today technical issues today i hope you had a great time and we'll i hope you had a great time and we'll i hope you had a great time and we'll see you next time [Music]

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