Building a Thriving Remote Culture

and we are live welcome back to and we are live welcome back to microconf on air i'm your host rob microconf on air i'm your host rob microconf on air i'm your host rob walling every other wednesday 1 p.m walling every other wednesday 1 p.m walling every other wednesday 1 p.m eastern 10 a.m pacific we live stream eastern 10 a.m pacific we live stream eastern 10 a.m pacific we live stream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics for about 30 minutes and we cover topics for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing related to building and growing related to building and growing ambitious sas startups that bring us ambitious sas startups that bring us ambitious sas startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to freedom and purpose and allow us to maintain healthy relationships today i'm maintain healthy relationships today i'm maintain healthy relationships today i'm going to be welcoming jesse mecum to the going to be welcoming jesse mecum to the going to be welcoming jesse mecum to the show jesse did a couple microconf talks show jesse did a couple microconf talks show jesse did a couple microconf talks back in 2014 2015 and in fact his 2014 back in 2014 2015 and in fact his 2014 back in 2014 2015 and in fact his 2014 talk was one of the highest rated talks talk was one of the highest rated talks talk was one of the highest rated talks uh of all time it was super entertaining uh of all time it was super entertaining uh of all time it was super entertaining and it was the story of building his and it was the story of building his and it was the story of building his startup that is now but it's like is it startup that is now but it's like is it startup that is now but it's like is it still a startup it's 18 years he's been still a startup it's 18 years he's been still a startup it's 18 years he's been doing it he was just telling me offline doing it he was just telling me offline doing it he was just telling me offline that he started in 2004. it's called you that he started in 2004. it's called you that he started in 2004. it's called you need a budget or ynab for short we're need a budget or ynab for short we're need a budget or ynab for short we're going to be covering going to be covering going to be covering um some topics around uh you know maybe um some topics around uh you know maybe um some topics around uh you know maybe some things he would have done some things he would have done some things he would have done differently differently differently knowing what he knew knowing what he knew knowing what he knew knowing what he knows now as well as uh knowing what he knows now as well as uh knowing what he knows now as well as uh updates on his team structure some other updates on his team structure some other updates on his team structure some other things related to his talk and then things related to his talk and then things related to his talk and then we're also going to talk about building we're also going to talk about building we're also going to talk about building a thriving remote culture because ynab a thriving remote culture because ynab a thriving remote culture because ynab is one of those companies that since is one of those companies that since is one of those companies that since 2004 has been a remote first company and 2004 has been a remote first company and 2004 has been a remote first company and you know obviously a lot of companies you know obviously a lot of companies you know obviously a lot of companies have become remote first now that covet have become remote first now that covet have become remote first now that covet has happened but they have two years of has happened but they have two years of has happened but they have two years of experience doing this and jesse has you experience doing this and jesse has you experience doing this and jesse has you know approaching two decades of it and know approaching two decades of it and know approaching two decades of it and he's thought a lot about it so he's thought a lot about it so he's thought a lot about it so as i said he's the founder of you need a as i said he's the founder of you need a as i said he's the founder of you need a budget which is a leading budgeting budget which is a leading budgeting budget which is a leading budgeting software and education company he's also software and education company he's also software and education company he's also the host of the united budget podcast the host of the united budget podcast the host of the united budget podcast the beginning balance podcast for small the beginning balance podcast for small the beginning balance podcast for small business owners and he's a wall street business owners and he's a wall street business owners and he's a wall street journal best-selling author of the book journal best-selling author of the book journal best-selling author of the book you guessed it called you need a budget

you guessed it called you need a budget you guessed it called you need a budget so with that i'd like to welcome jesse so with that i'd like to welcome jesse so with that i'd like to welcome jesse to the show how's it going man hey rob to the show how's it going man hey rob to the show how's it going man hey rob it's good to see you again yeah you too it's good to see you again yeah you too it's good to see you again yeah you too yeah it's it's it's been too long to be yeah it's it's it's been too long to be yeah it's it's it's been too long to be honest we were saying offline so i hope honest we were saying offline so i hope honest we were saying offline so i hope we were able to connect in person again we were able to connect in person again we were able to connect in person again soon but i think to to kick us off you soon but i think to to kick us off you soon but i think to to kick us off you know i know a lot of folks watching will know i know a lot of folks watching will know i know a lot of folks watching will have uh watched your 2014 microcomp talk have uh watched your 2014 microcomp talk have uh watched your 2014 microcomp talk where you told the story of building where you told the story of building where you told the story of building ynab and getting it off the ground and ynab and getting it off the ground and ynab and getting it off the ground and it was an excel spreadsheet at first and it was an excel spreadsheet at first and it was an excel spreadsheet at first and it's really a good talk with a lot of it's really a good talk with a lot of it's really a good talk with a lot of jokes um jokes um jokes um really well weaved into it and if folks really well weaved into it and if folks really well weaved into it and if folks haven't watched that we'll link it up in haven't watched that we'll link it up in haven't watched that we'll link it up in the show notes and they can go check it the show notes and they can go check it the show notes and they can go check it out after this but knowing what you know out after this but knowing what you know out after this but knowing what you know now now now what would you have done differently what would you have done differently what would you have done differently when you launched ynab when you launched ynab when you launched ynab oh man that is everything you would do oh man that is everything you would do oh man that is everything you would do every single thing differently you know every single thing differently you know every single thing differently you know um um um i think i i even mentioned it in the i think i i even mentioned it in the i think i i even mentioned it in the talk and it's worth stating probably talk and it's worth stating probably talk and it's worth stating probably here but a lot of what you did got you here but a lot of what you did got you here but a lot of what you did got you to where you are and so in a bit of a to where you are and so in a bit of a to where you are and so in a bit of a catch-22 you you can't you don't want to catch-22 you you can't you don't want to catch-22 you you can't you don't want to uh write it all off and just say oh man uh write it all off and just say oh man uh write it all off and just say oh man i can't believe i made all those i can't believe i made all those i can't believe i made all those mistakes mistakes mistakes because that's what that's what got you because that's what that's what got you because that's what that's what got you the knowledge right it wasn't it wasn't the knowledge right it wasn't it wasn't the knowledge right it wasn't it wasn't reading it was more doing it was it was reading it was more doing it was it was reading it was more doing it was it was more creating and less kind of consuming more creating and less kind of consuming more creating and less kind of consuming of the content of the content of the content and so and so and so in that way i wouldn't change a thing as in that way i wouldn't change a thing as in that way i wouldn't change a thing as my cop-out answer right but if there was my cop-out answer right but if there was my cop-out answer right but if there was if there was one focus if there was one focus if there was one focus that i got late in the game i would say that i got late in the game i would say that i got late in the game i would say probably around the time of that talk probably around the time of that talk probably around the time of that talk 2014 or something like that 2014 or something like that 2014 or something like that it was a talk that i had listened to at it was a talk that i had listened to at it was a talk that i had listened to at another conference where a

another conference where a another conference where a the speaker i don't remember their name the speaker i don't remember their name the speaker i don't remember their name just said i'm gonna talk about culture just said i'm gonna talk about culture just said i'm gonna talk about culture and i thought oh i had my organizational and i thought oh i had my organizational and i thought oh i had my organizational behavior class when i was doing my behavior class when i was doing my behavior class when i was doing my master's degree like that was the worst master's degree like that was the worst master's degree like that was the worst i hate it no i don't want the i hate it no i don't want the i hate it no i don't want the touchy-feely i want profit and loss touchy-feely i want profit and loss touchy-feely i want profit and loss revenue heart you know revenue heart you know revenue heart you know and so i kind of wrote off the first and so i kind of wrote off the first and so i kind of wrote off the first part of the talk but there was one line part of the talk but there was one line part of the talk but there was one line that the speaker had where he said if that the speaker had where he said if that the speaker had where he said if you don't you don't you don't intentionally create the culture that intentionally create the culture that intentionally create the culture that you want in your company you will end up you want in your company you will end up you want in your company you will end up working for a place working out a place working for a place working out a place working for a place working out a place that where you don't like it and that that where you don't like it and that that where you don't like it and that mortified me so there was one thing i mortified me so there was one thing i mortified me so there was one thing i could go back and just say hey jesse a could go back and just say hey jesse a could go back and just say hey jesse a little bug in your ear it would be little bug in your ear it would be little bug in your ear it would be be intentional and aware of of culture be intentional and aware of of culture be intentional and aware of of culture and what you want from the outset and what you want from the outset and what you want from the outset and then and then from there you just and then and then from there you just and then and then from there you just you just turn that flywheel make it you just turn that flywheel make it you just turn that flywheel make it better and better great and we're going better and better great and we're going better and better great and we're going to circle back on culture and remote to circle back on culture and remote to circle back on culture and remote culture culture culture here in a few minutes here in a few minutes here in a few minutes so compared to when so compared to when so compared to when you know you gave your talk in 2014 you know you gave your talk in 2014 you know you gave your talk in 2014 which is what is that eight years ago which is what is that eight years ago which is what is that eight years ago what what is your team structure like what what is your team structure like what what is your team structure like today compared to what it was then today compared to what it was then today compared to what it was then so we were so we were so we were i mean back then we my guess is we were i mean back then we my guess is we were i mean back then we my guess is we were around 30 25 to 30 employees around 30 25 to 30 employees around 30 25 to 30 employees um today i think we're around 190. wow um today i think we're around 190. wow um today i think we're around 190. wow so just that alone just numbers you have so just that alone just numbers you have so just that alone just numbers you have to start structuring things to start structuring things to start structuring things uh differently i'm no longer ceo i uh differently i'm no longer ceo i uh differently i'm no longer ceo i mentioned you offline as of about a mentioned you offline as of about a mentioned you offline as of about a little over a year ago i stepped back as little over a year ago i stepped back as little over a year ago i stepped back as ceo ceo ceo i hired todd curtis 12 years ago and he

i hired todd curtis 12 years ago and he i hired todd curtis 12 years ago and he worked in support worked and just kind worked in support worked and just kind worked in support worked and just kind of moved around strategically i was of moved around strategically i was of moved around strategically i was being i was kind of thinking like i want being i was kind of thinking like i want being i was kind of thinking like i want to have this guy get a lot of exposure to have this guy get a lot of exposure to have this guy get a lot of exposure so he's now ceo that's a big structural so he's now ceo that's a big structural so he's now ceo that's a big structural change for us change for us change for us um i'm focused more on chatting with um i'm focused more on chatting with um i'm focused more on chatting with people like you and evangelizing but um people like you and evangelizing but um people like you and evangelizing but um we were pretty traditional in the sense we were pretty traditional in the sense we were pretty traditional in the sense that we have functional units but then that we have functional units but then that we have functional units but then we're a little unconditioned or we're a little unconditioned or we're a little unconditioned or untraditional in the sense that our untraditional in the sense that our untraditional in the sense that our product teams we we dice across product teams we we dice across product teams we we dice across functions and we make them functions and we make them functions and we make them cross-functional so cross-functional so cross-functional so we don't have a feature team we have we don't have a feature team we have we don't have a feature team we have a team that is obsessed over a specific a team that is obsessed over a specific a team that is obsessed over a specific problem that they're trying to solve for problem that they're trying to solve for problem that they're trying to solve for a customer and these problems are broad a customer and these problems are broad a customer and these problems are broad enough where i could say rob your enough where i could say rob your enough where i could say rob your problem is problem is problem is um the first time learning experience um the first time learning experience um the first time learning experience for a ynab user for a ynab user for a ynab user and you would say well when is that and you would say well when is that and you would say well when is that problem solved and i'd say well problem solved and i'd say well problem solved and i'd say well probably never right but you will obsess probably never right but you will obsess probably never right but you will obsess over that so then if you were leading over that so then if you were leading over that so then if you were leading that as like a product manager you would that as like a product manager you would that as like a product manager you would have a few engineers a few full stack have a few engineers a few full stack have a few engineers a few full stack few mobile you'd have um one or two few mobile you'd have um one or two few mobile you'd have um one or two voices from support customers like that voices from support customers like that voices from support customers like that can tell you hey product manager we hear can tell you hey product manager we hear can tell you hey product manager we hear this every day like they are front lines this every day like they are front lines this every day like they are front lines in their bones knowledge that you want in their bones knowledge that you want in their bones knowledge that you want to have to have to have and then you would have a marketing and then you would have a marketing and then you would have a marketing assist you know someone that can come in assist you know someone that can come in assist you know someone that can come in and say how are we framing this so that and say how are we framing this so that and say how are we framing this so that cross-functional team we call them pace cross-functional team we call them pace cross-functional team we call them pace teams and that's where we're a little teams and that's where we're a little teams and that's where we're a little unique unique unique one other thing that might be one other thing that might be one other thing that might be interesting to some is our managers our interesting to some is our managers our interesting to some is our managers our people managers are in charge of a team people managers are in charge of a team people managers are in charge of a team member's growth member's growth member's growth and their bandwidth so their growth like

and their bandwidth so their growth like and their bandwidth so their growth like how are you doing in your career your how are you doing in your career your how are you doing in your career your bandwidth like is everything okay on bandwidth like is everything okay on bandwidth like is everything okay on your plate but they are not necessarily your plate but they are not necessarily your plate but they are not necessarily a technical expert so we could have a technical expert so we could have a technical expert so we could have someone that's not a design expert someone that's not a design expert someone that's not a design expert people managing a designer and that's people managing a designer and that's people managing a designer and that's given us some flexibility to make sure given us some flexibility to make sure given us some flexibility to make sure only people that want to be managers only people that want to be managers only people that want to be managers manage manage manage and it's allowed us a little more room and it's allowed us a little more room and it's allowed us a little more room and maneuver in that way and it's and maneuver in that way and it's and maneuver in that way and it's allowed for us to have managers that allowed for us to have managers that allowed for us to have managers that still be still can be contributors so still be still can be contributors so still be still can be contributors so there are a few points there in the there are a few points there in the there are a few points there in the structure but long story short when you structure but long story short when you structure but long story short when you add that many more people you do have to add that many more people you do have to add that many more people you do have to make structural changes and you have to make structural changes and you have to make structural changes and you have to tell the team we get to make structural tell the team we get to make structural tell the team we get to make structural changes that last at least six months changes that last at least six months changes that last at least six months but we don't have to predict anything but we don't have to predict anything but we don't have to predict anything further than that just a six month further than that just a six month further than that just a six month iteration and then you just revisit that iteration and then you just revisit that iteration and then you just revisit that org over and over again but yeah it's org over and over again but yeah it's org over and over again but yeah it's it's crazy it's what i can imagine and it's crazy it's what i can imagine and it's crazy it's what i can imagine and it's good to be up front about that that it's good to be up front about that that it's good to be up front about that that hey we are going to revisit this every hey we are going to revisit this every hey we are going to revisit this every six months 12 months because i've seen six months 12 months because i've seen six months 12 months because i've seen companies startups in particular where companies startups in particular where companies startups in particular where you hit 15 people and said well we kind you hit 15 people and said well we kind you hit 15 people and said well we kind of need to restructure some things and of need to restructure some things and of need to restructure some things and then you hit 30 or 50 and there's then you hit 30 or 50 and there's then you hit 30 or 50 and there's another point where you have to do it another point where you have to do it another point where you have to do it and if if you're not up front about hey and if if you're not up front about hey and if if you're not up front about hey this is going to change then hey you get this is going to change then hey you get this is going to change then hey you get the wrong people on the bus who don't the wrong people on the bus who don't the wrong people on the bus who don't who want things to stay who worked at who want things to stay who worked at who want things to stay who worked at the city government for 20 years and how the city government for 20 years and how the city government for 20 years and how they work for you and suddenly they're they work for you and suddenly they're they work for you and suddenly they're like wait like wait like wait you know i don't know this isn't a good you know i don't know this isn't a good you know i don't know this isn't a good fit and also if you're not upfront about fit and also if you're not upfront about fit and also if you're not upfront about it it can make it seem like the ceo it it can make it seem like the ceo it it can make it seem like the ceo doesn't know what they're doing like doesn't know what they're doing like doesn't know what they're doing like that whip song yeah like why are you that whip song yeah like why are you that whip song yeah like why are you changing it shouldn't change it's like changing it shouldn't change it's like changing it shouldn't change it's like no it probably should actually every no it probably should actually every no it probably should actually every time we you know hit that next whatever time we you know hit that next whatever time we you know hit that next whatever it's another 20 30 employees um it's another 20 30 employees um it's another 20 30 employees um something something should change and

something something should change and something something should change and i'm also glad you called out i'm also glad you called out i'm also glad you called out the idea of the idea of the idea of i talked about this on my podcast i talked about this on my podcast i talked about this on my podcast recently but it was like being a manager recently but it was like being a manager recently but it was like being a manager uh no no it was being a supervisor uh no no it was being a supervisor uh no no it was being a supervisor versus a technical lead and they're two versus a technical lead and they're two versus a technical lead and they're two different things right i think of different things right i think of different things right i think of totally to me i'm defining supervisor as totally to me i'm defining supervisor as totally to me i'm defining supervisor as uh like you said per the personal growth uh like you said per the personal growth uh like you said per the personal growth even like approving vacation time annual even like approving vacation time annual even like approving vacation time annual reviews salary like that's a whole skill reviews salary like that's a whole skill reviews salary like that's a whole skill set set set and then technical lead whether it's a and then technical lead whether it's a and then technical lead whether it's a design technical lead or a you know design technical lead or a you know design technical lead or a you know coding technical lead or a product coding technical lead or a product coding technical lead or a product whatever these are separate skill sets whatever these are separate skill sets whatever these are separate skill sets and sometimes you can find one person and sometimes you can find one person and sometimes you can find one person with both but often you you don't right with both but often you you don't right with both but often you you don't right and even if they have both maybe you and even if they have both maybe you and even if they have both maybe you just want them to do one more than the just want them to do one more than the just want them to do one more than the other right yeah that's right other right yeah that's right other right yeah that's right um um um uh let's see my next question how do you uh let's see my next question how do you uh let's see my next question how do you manage growth projections and goal manage growth projections and goal manage growth projections and goal setting these days with a team of almost setting these days with a team of almost setting these days with a team of almost so we have a so we have a so we have a we have a one-pager that we use um we have a one-pager that we use um we have a one-pager that we use um people have read things like people have read things like people have read things like measure what matters you know the okr measure what matters you know the okr measure what matters you know the okr book it's it's pretty good or book it's it's pretty good or book it's it's pretty good or gosh gosh gosh the one thing any number of books that the one thing any number of books that the one thing any number of books that you're just kind of like okay you set a you're just kind of like okay you set a you're just kind of like okay you set a goal it's pretty standard stuff um but goal it's pretty standard stuff um but goal it's pretty standard stuff um but we use we use a one pager that lists the we use we use a one pager that lists the we use we use a one pager that lists the mission of ynab at the very top and it's mission of ynab at the very top and it's mission of ynab at the very top and it's to establish the budget as the to establish the budget as the to establish the budget as the preeminent life and financial planning preeminent life and financial planning preeminent life and financial planning tool and make it a joy and easy to tool and make it a joy and easy to tool and make it a joy and easy to implement implement implement you're like wow jesse that was a you're like wow jesse that was a you're like wow jesse that was a mouthful but you know that is it that's mouthful but you know that is it that's mouthful but you know that is it that's the mission and it's it's long lasting the mission and it's it's long lasting the mission and it's it's long lasting so you have the longest lasting thing we so you have the longest lasting thing we so you have the longest lasting thing we would would would maybe change our mission in a decade i maybe change our mission in a decade i maybe change our mission in a decade i don't know but it's meant to be

don't know but it's meant to be don't know but it's meant to be pretty permanent below that we have our pretty permanent below that we have our pretty permanent below that we have our strategy strategy strategy and our strategy is is essentially two and our strategy is is essentially two and our strategy is is essentially two components we have our core values which components we have our core values which components we have our core values which we can maybe dive into later and then we we can maybe dive into later and then we we can maybe dive into later and then we have our system right our and and it have our system right our and and it have our system right our and and it lays lays out what were what we're lays lays out what were what we're lays lays out what were what we're bringing to the table you could think of bringing to the table you could think of bringing to the table you could think of it like unique selling proposition it like unique selling proposition it like unique selling proposition user journey that kind of thing user journey that kind of thing user journey that kind of thing underneath that we have targets and we underneath that we have targets and we underneath that we have targets and we we purposely have a long-term target we purposely have a long-term target we purposely have a long-term target up to 10 years no shorter than five up to 10 years no shorter than five up to 10 years no shorter than five that you mentioned right seats right bus that you mentioned right seats right bus that you mentioned right seats right bus that long-term target helps you that long-term target helps you that long-term target helps you frame for people kind of i don't know frame for people kind of i don't know frame for people kind of i don't know they get to look further ahead and you they get to look further ahead and you they get to look further ahead and you can probe their feelings and be like hey can probe their feelings and be like hey can probe their feelings and be like hey uh you know in 10 years would you be uh you know in 10 years would you be uh you know in 10 years would you be comfortable with this business being a comfortable with this business being a comfortable with this business being a 200 million dollar business and you're 200 million dollar business and you're 200 million dollar business and you're now at 20 right and someone would you now at 20 right and someone would you now at 20 right and someone would you could really learn a lot from what could really learn a lot from what could really learn a lot from what someone thinks about that they might say someone thinks about that they might say someone thinks about that they might say oh no i worked at a play i never right oh no i worked at a play i never right oh no i worked at a play i never right or they might say absolutely i thought or they might say absolutely i thought or they might say absolutely i thought we were going for 500. you know and so we were going for 500. you know and so we were going for 500. you know and so you go really long term and it kind of you go really long term and it kind of you go really long term and it kind of frames everyone appropriately to where frames everyone appropriately to where frames everyone appropriately to where you're you're facing the general you're you're facing the general you're you're facing the general direction the same it's great for direction the same it's great for direction the same it's great for bubbling up issues it's a fun discussion bubbling up issues it's a fun discussion bubbling up issues it's a fun discussion then you we always move to a three-year then you we always move to a three-year then you we always move to a three-year at that point that starts to get a at that point that starts to get a at that point that starts to get a little more brass tax but still little more brass tax but still little more brass tax but still bullet point-esque bullet point-esque bullet point-esque and then from there we'll move to a and then from there we'll move to a and then from there we'll move to a one-year where we're saying okay one one-year where we're saying okay one one-year where we're saying okay one year what are we going to hit and from year what are we going to hit and from year what are we going to hit and from there it's just standard stuff we want there it's just standard stuff we want there it's just standard stuff we want to hit this number of revenue to hit this number of revenue to hit this number of revenue we want to have it have these key we want to have it have these key we want to have it have these key results that we're looking to track you

results that we're looking to track you results that we're looking to track you know for us it's standard stuff signups know for us it's standard stuff signups know for us it's standard stuff signups conversion rate churn conversion rate churn conversion rate churn standard fare but you get very specific standard fare but you get very specific standard fare but you get very specific only at the year i think the most only at the year i think the most only at the year i think the most important part is the longer term important part is the longer term important part is the longer term framing to kind of let you dial it down framing to kind of let you dial it down framing to kind of let you dial it down and to clarify for folks you're fully and to clarify for folks you're fully and to clarify for folks you're fully bootstrapped is that right bootstrapped is that right bootstrapped is that right we are yeah we've never raised money i we are yeah we've never raised money i we are yeah we've never raised money i don't know if that was the right move don't know if that was the right move don't know if that was the right move but here we are you know but here we are you know but here we are you know we have a couple questions coming in we have a couple questions coming in we have a couple questions coming in from the audience i think i forgot to from the audience i think i forgot to from the audience i think i forgot to mention that at the top so these are mention that at the top so these are mention that at the top so these are these are folks who've been microconf these are folks who've been microconf these are folks who've been microconf on-air uh watchers before because they on-air uh watchers before because they on-air uh watchers before because they are are are on it and if you have any questions for on it and if you have any questions for on it and if you have any questions for jesse please do pipe them into a jesse please do pipe them into a jesse please do pipe them into a microconf on air uh channel in slack or microconf on air uh channel in slack or microconf on air uh channel in slack or on youtube pablo from youtube says what on youtube pablo from youtube says what on youtube pablo from youtube says what would you say to someone that is not would you say to someone that is not would you say to someone that is not enjoying the role of ceo anymore but has enjoying the role of ceo anymore but has enjoying the role of ceo anymore but has trouble letting go of it yeah trouble letting go of it yeah trouble letting go of it yeah what uh trouble two two different ways what uh trouble two two different ways what uh trouble two two different ways of looking at trouble one is like of looking at trouble one is like of looking at trouble one is like tactically i don't have someone i can tactically i don't have someone i can tactically i don't have someone i can hand this to that would that would cause hand this to that would that would cause hand this to that would that would cause trouble the other one is trouble the other one is trouble the other one is i would have i would have i would have less well i would be kind of like well less well i would be kind of like well less well i would be kind of like well you don't like it you're not enjoying it you don't like it you're not enjoying it you don't like it you're not enjoying it so what's the trouble right so what's the trouble right so what's the trouble right the the the this this applies for anyone in any this this applies for anyone in any this this applies for anyone in any position you should always and i learned position you should always and i learned position you should always and i learned this from our current ceo you should this from our current ceo you should this from our current ceo you should always be hiring your replacement you always be hiring your replacement you always be hiring your replacement you should always be be should always be be should always be be molding teaching molding teaching molding teaching fostering mentoring your replacement uh fostering mentoring your replacement uh fostering mentoring your replacement uh it's part of the job responsibility as it's part of the job responsibility as it's part of the job responsibility as any of my executives they they better be any of my executives they they better be any of my executives they they better be dialed in on who their replacement will dialed in on who their replacement will dialed in on who their replacement will be and it's not you don't it's a little

be and it's not you don't it's a little be and it's not you don't it's a little counterintuitive because you're like counterintuitive because you're like counterintuitive because you're like whoa whoa whoa i don't want to be whoa whoa whoa i don't want to be whoa whoa whoa i don't want to be replaced you won't be replaced but it's replaced you won't be replaced but it's replaced you won't be replaced but it's part of the job description is to not part of the job description is to not part of the job description is to not leave us in a lurch right to to pave the leave us in a lurch right to to pave the leave us in a lurch right to to pave the way nicely and so you always want to be way nicely and so you always want to be way nicely and so you always want to be thinking about hiring your replacement thinking about hiring your replacement thinking about hiring your replacement and in that instance where you're having and in that instance where you're having and in that instance where you're having trouble letting go because it's just trouble letting go because it's just trouble letting go because it's just your baby your baby your baby and you got to really be clear like what and you got to really be clear like what and you got to really be clear like what what is this replacement person bringing what is this replacement person bringing what is this replacement person bringing to the table to the table to the table where todd our ceo is better at being a where todd our ceo is better at being a where todd our ceo is better at being a ceo in so many different ways than i am ceo in so many different ways than i am ceo in so many different ways than i am i have a few i have some strengths that i have a few i have some strengths that i have a few i have some strengths that he doesn't have but he doesn't have but he doesn't have but he's he for this next phase i just felt he's he for this next phase i just felt he's he for this next phase i just felt like yeah he's it but it was still hard like yeah he's it but it was still hard like yeah he's it but it was still hard in the moment to let go emotionally like in the moment to let go emotionally like in the moment to let go emotionally like legit therapy type hard um so legit therapy type hard um so legit therapy type hard um so one part is make sure you're you're one part is make sure you're you're one part is make sure you're you're you've found and you're teaching and you've found and you're teaching and you've found and you're teaching and mentoring the right person and the other mentoring the right person and the other mentoring the right person and the other part is being really clear like okay now part is being really clear like okay now part is being really clear like okay now that i've done this that i've done this that i've done this um what's my next move and i had to know um what's my next move and i had to know um what's my next move and i had to know what my next spot was before i could what my next spot was before i could what my next spot was before i could just leave some vacuum in my life just leave some vacuum in my life just leave some vacuum in my life yeah the emotional side i think is yeah the emotional side i think is yeah the emotional side i think is it it's got to be brutal and getting it it's got to be brutal and getting it it's got to be brutal and getting outside help therapy or you know some outside help therapy or you know some outside help therapy or you know some something i think has got to be yeah something i think has got to be yeah something i think has got to be yeah like legit like legit shaky the moment i like legit like legit shaky the moment i like legit like legit shaky the moment i was actually like announcing to the team was actually like announcing to the team was actually like announcing to the team and i knew it would be semi-permanent and i knew it would be semi-permanent and i knew it would be semi-permanent that's the one thing i said man six that's the one thing i said man six that's the one thing i said man six months except if you're changing the ceo months except if you're changing the ceo months except if you're changing the ceo we want to make sure that that org we want to make sure that that org we want to make sure that that org structure is longer than that so i i was structure is longer than that so i i was structure is longer than that so i i was legit shaking there like i was nervous legit shaking there like i was nervous legit shaking there like i was nervous about i knew i knew i felt good about about i knew i knew i felt good about about i knew i knew i felt good about the decision i liked where i was at with the decision i liked where i was at with the decision i liked where i was at with it i obviously chatted with julie my

it i obviously chatted with julie my it i obviously chatted with julie my spouse about it at length for the last spouse about it at length for the last spouse about it at length for the last year um year um year um but yeah in the moment still fully but yeah in the moment still fully but yeah in the moment still fully emotional absolutely emotional absolutely emotional absolutely yeah yeah yeah and then peter on youtube asks i've seen and then peter on youtube asks i've seen and then peter on youtube asks i've seen many times that companies struggle to many times that companies struggle to many times that companies struggle to allocate resources for security teams allocate resources for security teams allocate resources for security teams it's also it's also a common practice to it's also it's also a common practice to it's also it's also a common practice to silo them as a separate security team silo them as a separate security team silo them as a separate security team how do you solve security resource how do you solve security resource how do you solve security resource allocation allocation allocation well we need to have someone that's well we need to have someone that's well we need to have someone that's fully dedicated to security right now it fully dedicated to security right now it fully dedicated to security right now it falls on our head of technology cto role falls on our head of technology cto role falls on our head of technology cto role and that's poor you know literally for and that's poor you know literally for and that's poor you know literally for two years we've been like we've got to two years we've been like we've got to two years we've been like we've got to have someone that just obsesses over have someone that just obsesses over have someone that just obsesses over security security security so i actually don't have a better answer so i actually don't have a better answer so i actually don't have a better answer for that right now we're i think we're for that right now we're i think we're for that right now we're i think we're behind the eight belt eight ball on it behind the eight belt eight ball on it behind the eight belt eight ball on it we we've given it to someone who has a we we've given it to someone who has a we we've given it to someone who has a whole bunch of other responsibilities whole bunch of other responsibilities whole bunch of other responsibilities and so security needs to be paramount and so security needs to be paramount and so security needs to be paramount for that person and it's it's currently for that person and it's it's currently for that person and it's it's currently not it's odd because it's the most not it's odd because it's the most not it's odd because it's the most important thing if you mess up important thing if you mess up important thing if you mess up then you're i mean done for then you're i mean done for then you're i mean done for um but it doesn't get the resources it um but it doesn't get the resources it um but it doesn't get the resources it needs out of the gate so we're actually needs out of the gate so we're actually needs out of the gate so we're actually fixing that in the next couple of months fixing that in the next couple of months fixing that in the next couple of months we're we're going to be hiring for that we're we're going to be hiring for that we're we're going to be hiring for that specific position specific position specific position and then i'll let you know in a year how and then i'll let you know in a year how and then i'll let you know in a year how we make sure that security isn't just we make sure that security isn't just we make sure that security isn't just siloed that's siloed that's siloed that's what would that be a cadence of what would that be a cadence of what would that be a cadence of communication communication communication um i don't know people that carry um i don't know people that carry um i don't know people that carry certain responsibilities that are across certain responsibilities that are across certain responsibilities that are across those pace teams maybe functionally what those pace teams maybe functionally what those pace teams maybe functionally what it looks like i haven't haven't solved it looks like i haven't haven't solved it looks like i haven't haven't solved that one yet that one yet that one yet yeah yeah yeah and then peter uh asks another question and then peter uh asks another question and then peter uh asks another question and then we'll get back because i want and then we'll get back because i want and then we'll get back because i want to get back to culture and values and to get back to culture and values and to get back to culture and values and promote routine stuff but he asks from

promote routine stuff but he asks from promote routine stuff but he asks from youtube what would you say is the most youtube what would you say is the most youtube what would you say is the most important skill for remotely remotely important skill for remotely remotely important skill for remotely remotely leading a team of engineers leading a team of engineers leading a team of engineers effective communication effective communication effective communication yeah writing specifically writing yeah yeah writing specifically writing yeah yeah writing specifically writing yeah yeah because so much of it is in chat or yeah because so much of it is in chat or yeah because so much of it is in chat or email or whatever yeah i would agree email or whatever yeah i would agree email or whatever yeah i would agree with you there with you there with you there so so so let's let's change it up a little bit let's let's change it up a little bit let's let's change it up a little bit and talk about and talk about and talk about you know you sent over some notes and you know you sent over some notes and you know you sent over some notes and you had this this you had this this you had this this i'll paraphrase you but you said i'll paraphrase you but you said i'll paraphrase you but you said why the soft stuff like core values and why the soft stuff like core values and why the soft stuff like core values and culture is what truly matters right and culture is what truly matters right and culture is what truly matters right and as look as entrepreneurs i mean i left as look as entrepreneurs i mean i left as look as entrepreneurs i mean i left my job thinking i don't want to get near my job thinking i don't want to get near my job thinking i don't want to get near any of this mission vision any of this mission vision any of this mission vision values right i want to start a company values right i want to start a company values right i want to start a company we're just going to do our stuff and we're just going to do our stuff and we're just going to do our stuff and then you hit 10 employees or 15 then you hit 10 employees or 15 then you hit 10 employees or 15 employees and to your point earlier if employees and to your point earlier if employees and to your point earlier if you don't create a culture it will you don't create a culture it will you don't create a culture it will create itself and you know create it on create itself and you know create it on create itself and you know create it on its own and you may not be in control of its own and you may not be in control of its own and you may not be in control of it so but but talk through you know why it so but but talk through you know why it so but but talk through you know why it's so important yeah i alluded to that it's so important yeah i alluded to that it's so important yeah i alluded to that and from that conference talk you know and from that conference talk you know and from that conference talk you know years and years ago i was like ah come years and years ago i was like ah come years and years ago i was like ah come on let's let's sell software you know on let's let's sell software you know on let's let's sell software you know um um um what i've noticed and this is still uh what i've noticed and this is still uh what i've noticed and this is still uh kind of a working theory for me but um a kind of a working theory for me but um a kind of a working theory for me but um a little brag for a moment so ynab we little brag for a moment so ynab we little brag for a moment so ynab we submitted our company to a battery of of submitted our company to a battery of of submitted our company to a battery of of surveying and things as part of the surveying and things as part of the surveying and things as part of the great place to work company that then great place to work company that then great place to work company that then publishes their results in fortune publishes their results in fortune publishes their results in fortune and uh ynab was was listed in 2020 and and uh ynab was was listed in 2020 and and uh ynab was was listed in 2020 and 2021 as the number one small workplace 2021 as the number one small workplace 2021 as the number one small workplace at that time we were sub 100 employees at that time we were sub 100 employees at that time we were sub 100 employees just under i mean the number one just under i mean the number one just under i mean the number one workplace we're all remote and and it workplace we're all remote and and it workplace we're all remote and and it was curious because the great place to was curious because the great place to was curious because the great place to work gave us our data i think we

work gave us our data i think we work gave us our data i think we actually had to pay them for it which actually had to pay them for it which actually had to pay them for it which was ironic but they gave us the data was ironic but they gave us the data was ironic but they gave us the data it's all anonymous so your team is it's all anonymous so your team is it's all anonymous so your team is allowed to say what they want to say allowed to say what they want to say allowed to say what they want to say and there were interesting things like and there were interesting things like and there were interesting things like how we scored we were 100 across the how we scored we were 100 across the how we scored we were 100 across the board and there were there were a few board and there were there were a few board and there were there were a few bits where it would be like 100 of bits where it would be like 100 of bits where it would be like 100 of employees believe that management trusts employees believe that management trusts employees believe that management trusts them to do their work without looking them to do their work without looking them to do their work without looking over their shoulder over their shoulder over their shoulder and all remotely where when things were and all remotely where when things were and all remotely where when things were first shifting i mean rob you this would first shifting i mean rob you this would first shifting i mean rob you this would blow your mind because you've been in blow your mind because you've been in blow your mind because you've been in the world forever but i had friends that the world forever but i had friends that the world forever but i had friends that were running companies all co-located were running companies all co-located were running companies all co-located and they're like how do you make sure and they're like how do you make sure and they're like how do you make sure your team's actually working how do you your team's actually working how do you your team's actually working how do you do you install key logging software i'm do you install key logging software i'm do you install key logging software i'm like what are you talking about man like like what are you talking about man like like what are you talking about man like who who have you hired where it's just who who have you hired where it's just who who have you hired where it's just are you running a chain gang like i are you running a chain gang like i are you running a chain gang like i don't get how this is going you know but don't get how this is going you know but don't get how this is going you know but that was where their mind was going and that was where their mind was going and that was where their mind was going and so trust is trust remote or co-located so trust is trust remote or co-located so trust is trust remote or co-located you know how do i know that uh my team's you know how do i know that uh my team's you know how do i know that uh my team's working when they're all in an office working when they're all in an office working when they're all in an office building on several floors building on several floors building on several floors how do you know they're working when you how do you know they're working when you how do you know they're working when you close the door or when you put on your close the door or when you put on your close the door or when you put on your bose noise-canceling headphones to go bose noise-canceling headphones to go bose noise-canceling headphones to go dark you know dark you know dark you know so we it's it ends up being all about so we it's it ends up being all about so we it's it ends up being all about the the team and making sure that the the the team and making sure that the the the team and making sure that the team is a fit remote or co-located and team is a fit remote or co-located and team is a fit remote or co-located and what we did is what we did is what we did is we got really we got really we got really clear on what our core values were clear on what our core values were clear on what our core values were and their character traits they're not and their character traits they're not and their character traits they're not they're not demographics in the they're not demographics in the they're not demographics in the slightest they're that you can have a slightest they're that you can have a slightest they're that you can have a wildly diverse team across all kinds of wildly diverse team across all kinds of wildly diverse team across all kinds of spectrums but they can share these these spectrums but they can share these these spectrums but they can share these these core values that are wine apps and they core values that are wine apps and they core values that are wine apps and they might not be specific just to wine up

might not be specific just to wine up might not be specific just to wine up but they're unique enough that like if but they're unique enough that like if but they're unique enough that like if we were playing boggle that old game we were playing boggle that old game we were playing boggle that old game where we have to find words and if you where we have to find words and if you where we have to find words and if you find it you don't get the point and i find it you don't get the point and i find it you don't get the point and i don't get the point they have to be don't get the point they have to be don't get the point they have to be unique enough where you can start to unique enough where you can start to unique enough where you can start to attract people that attract people that attract people that are your core values so when we're are your core values so when we're are your core values so when we're hiring we'll hire that security expert hiring we'll hire that security expert hiring we'll hire that security expert we're going to find a security expert we're going to find a security expert we're going to find a security expert that has a bit of ynab in him or her that has a bit of ynab in him or her that has a bit of ynab in him or her already already already and then we get them and then we get them and then we get them versus looking for technical fit first versus looking for technical fit first versus looking for technical fit first and then i hope they're a nice person to and then i hope they're a nice person to and then i hope they're a nice person to work with work with work with what do you mean when they're when you what do you mean when they're when you what do you mean when they're when you say they're a nice person to work with say they're a nice person to work with say they're a nice person to work with define that for me because you rob have define that for me because you rob have define that for me because you rob have a style you have core values i'm sure of a style you have core values i'm sure of a style you have core values i'm sure of it that make it where you're like i like it that make it where you're like i like it that make it where you're like i like working with that person man that like working with that person man that like working with that person man that like that person's smart they get it but god that person's smart they get it but god that person's smart they get it but god we just don't seem to you're talking we just don't seem to you're talking we just don't seem to you're talking about a core value mismatch and they about a core value mismatch and they about a core value mismatch and they could go somewhere else and kill it in could go somewhere else and kill it in could go somewhere else and kill it in some other organization like some other organization like some other organization like apple's core value one of them has to be apple's core value one of them has to be apple's core value one of them has to be genius right they just have they have a genius right they just have they have a genius right they just have they have a genius bar they aren't even customers genius bar they aren't even customers genius bar they aren't even customers like so you know they're fully genius like so you know they're fully genius like so you know they're fully genius at ynab we wouldn't that wouldn't work at ynab we wouldn't that wouldn't work at ynab we wouldn't that wouldn't work well for us like i don't give a genius well for us like i don't give a genius well for us like i don't give a genius the last word i don't give genius the the last word i don't give genius the the last word i don't give genius the floor i it's just not the way we do it floor i it's just not the way we do it floor i it's just not the way we do it but can you build a massively successful but can you build a massively successful but can you build a massively successful company on geniuses core value most most company on geniuses core value most most company on geniuses core value most most definitely so definitely so definitely so defining those is so critically defining those is so critically defining those is so critically important and then finding people that important and then finding people that important and then finding people that have them already then if you're remote have them already then if you're remote have them already then if you're remote or co-located doesn't even matter you or co-located doesn't even matter you or co-located doesn't even matter you have people that are that are resonating have people that are that are resonating have people that are that are resonating with each other with each other with each other and then working is easier and then working is easier and then working is easier um um um like adjusting how you work being more like adjusting how you work being more like adjusting how you work being more open-minded to hey we're iterating here

open-minded to hey we're iterating here open-minded to hey we're iterating here people it's all okay because everyone's people it's all okay because everyone's people it's all okay because everyone's like oh yeah well this is this is how i like oh yeah well this is this is how i like oh yeah well this is this is how i work it's just who they are and so you work it's just who they are and so you work it's just who they are and so you can throw them into any kind of can throw them into any kind of can throw them into any kind of structure you can throw any new problems structure you can throw any new problems structure you can throw any new problems at them and they're so just like yeah at them and they're so just like yeah at them and they're so just like yeah this feels good this feels fine because this feels good this feels fine because this feels good this feels fine because at their core they're a match with the at their core they're a match with the at their core they're a match with the company and i think that's why that's company and i think that's why that's company and i think that's why that's why we're a great place to work is the why we're a great place to work is the why we're a great place to work is the residence of people here residence of people here residence of people here the fit everyone's uh the fit everyone's uh the fit everyone's uh and with what you've described and i and with what you've described and i and with what you've described and i mean would you be willing to share a mean would you be willing to share a mean would you be willing to share a couple of your core values so just to couple of your core values so just to couple of your core values so just to give an idea yeah give an idea yeah give an idea yeah what the uniqueness is what the uniqueness is what the uniqueness is so our first is genuine that's like our so our first is genuine that's like our so our first is genuine that's like our headlining like you got to be headlining like you got to be headlining like you got to be comfortable in your own skin and i the comfortable in your own skin and i the comfortable in your own skin and i the idea of someone kind of putting on a idea of someone kind of putting on a idea of someone kind of putting on a facade or or you having like podcast rob facade or or you having like podcast rob facade or or you having like podcast rob versus real rob i'm like no no i know versus real rob i'm like no no i know versus real rob i'm like no no i know when i talk to rob i'm going to get real when i talk to rob i'm going to get real when i talk to rob i'm going to get real rob every time you know rob every time you know rob every time you know my favorite core value though we call it my favorite core value though we call it my favorite core value though we call it humbly humbly humbly confident and if there's a tension there confident and if there's a tension there confident and if there's a tension there that i really like that i really like that i really like um um um there's we we deal with it on the team there's we we deal with it on the team there's we we deal with it on the team where we say well yeah you're hey um where we say well yeah you're hey um where we say well yeah you're hey um brag a little like this you're always brag a little like this you're always brag a little like this you're always deflecting praise like sometimes you deflecting praise like sometimes you deflecting praise like sometimes you need to be like yeah i own that i nailed need to be like yeah i own that i nailed need to be like yeah i own that i nailed that right and then other times you have that right and then other times you have that right and then other times you have to be like oh the team got this that to be like oh the team got this that to be like oh the team got this that wasn't much of me at all it's this wasn't much of me at all it's this wasn't much of me at all it's this tension there but when you're attracting tension there but when you're attracting tension there but when you're attracting an engineer or a designer or a support an engineer or a designer or a support an engineer or a designer or a support person person person and you lead with instead of on indeed and you lead with instead of on indeed and you lead with instead of on indeed or wherever your job boards are where or wherever your job boards are where or wherever your job boards are where people are scrolling people need to people are scrolling people need to people are scrolling people need to think through they're more like think through they're more like think through they're more like click-through rates that you're click-through rates that you're click-through rates that you're optimizing for not a job posting we want optimizing for not a job posting we want optimizing for not a job posting we want to stand out and so when you lead with to stand out and so when you lead with to stand out and so when you lead with instead of customer support rep you say instead of customer support rep you say instead of customer support rep you say confidently humble customer support rep

confidently humble customer support rep confidently humble customer support rep suddenly you have that person that's suddenly you have that person that's suddenly you have that person that's like oh and you get the click like oh and you get the click like oh and you get the click and that then in your job copy you're and that then in your job copy you're and that then in your job copy you're you're you're you're emanating these core values it's not emanating these core values it's not emanating these core values it's not some hr written thing it's like all some hr written thing it's like all some hr written thing it's like all marketing you're pitching right right marketing you're pitching right right marketing you're pitching right right and you get that out there and then it's and you get that out there and then it's and you get that out there and then it's resonating well where we have people resonating well where we have people resonating well where we have people that will send friends the job posting that will send friends the job posting that will send friends the job posting and they're like i mean rob you gotta i and they're like i mean rob you gotta i and they're like i mean rob you gotta i know you're not looking for a job and know you're not looking for a job and know you're not looking for a job and sorry for overstepping but like this was sorry for overstepping but like this was sorry for overstepping but like this was just screaming you you've gotta check just screaming you you've gotta check just screaming you you've gotta check this out i can't tell you how many this out i can't tell you how many this out i can't tell you how many people we've hired that were just like people we've hired that were just like people we've hired that were just like oh i wasn't looking for a job but my you oh i wasn't looking for a job but my you oh i wasn't looking for a job but my you know friend of mine said that i should know friend of mine said that i should know friend of mine said that i should check it out and here i am i can't check it out and here i am i can't check it out and here i am i can't believe i'm applying that's the kind of believe i'm applying that's the kind of believe i'm applying that's the kind of people you want so people you want so people you want so you start from the very outset in that a you start from the very outset in that a you start from the very outset in that a candidate attraction process and you candidate attraction process and you candidate attraction process and you just scream the core values and then you just scream the core values and then you just scream the core values and then you eliminate people that are like god these eliminate people that are like god these eliminate people that are like god these people are way too focusy you know right people are way too focusy you know right people are way too focusy you know right or i can't believe they're making jokes or i can't believe they're making jokes or i can't believe they're making jokes in their job description well we don't in their job description well we don't in their job description well we don't want you there we like you but you won't want you there we like you but you won't want you there we like you but you won't you won't like it here you just won't you won't like it here you just won't you won't like it here you just won't feel like you fit feel like you fit feel like you fit and you attract people that are like oh and you attract people that are like oh and you attract people that are like oh that joke was pretty funny i like this that joke was pretty funny i like this that joke was pretty funny i like this place right that's great yeah it's such place right that's great yeah it's such place right that's great yeah it's such an upfront screening process right as an upfront screening process right as an upfront screening process right as you said not just for technical but for you said not just for technical but for you said not just for technical but for fit fit fit so i you know so i you know so i you know i know that you um i know that you um i know that you um the ynab is like a very the ynab is like a very the ynab is like a very i guess work-life balance term may be i guess work-life balance term may be i guess work-life balance term may be overused but i know i actually know an overused but i know i actually know an overused but i know i actually know an engineer who who went off and started engineer who who went off and started engineer who who went off and started his own thing he used to work at windup his own thing he used to work at windup his own thing he used to work at windup and he just talked a lot about how and he just talked a lot about how and he just talked a lot about how um ynab values the whole person you know

um ynab values the whole person you know um ynab values the whole person you know that basically work you you believe that that basically work you you believe that that basically work you you believe that work is one aspect of a person's life work is one aspect of a person's life work is one aspect of a person's life but it's not their whole life you want but it's not their whole life you want but it's not their whole life you want to talk us through like what that looks to talk us through like what that looks to talk us through like what that looks like in practice yeah well one is like i like in practice yeah well one is like i like in practice yeah well one is like i don't believe it like it just is true don't believe it like it just is true don't believe it like it just is true it's like come on people like we have it's like come on people like we have it's like come on people like we have let's like let's acknowledge it i i let's like let's acknowledge it i i let's like let's acknowledge it i i worked for a place for 10 months in worked for a place for 10 months in worked for a place for 10 months in early early in my career as an early early in my career as an early early in my career as an accounting you know accounting you know accounting you know uh person and i saw what it was like uh person and i saw what it was like uh person and i saw what it was like where they just treat you like a cog and where they just treat you like a cog and where they just treat you like a cog and you recognize like ah that doesn't feel you recognize like ah that doesn't feel you recognize like ah that doesn't feel good and i think a little bit of that good and i think a little bit of that good and i think a little bit of that ptsd uh ptsd uh ptsd uh is still in me where i was just hyper is still in me where i was just hyper is still in me where i was just hyper aware of like whoa well we got to make aware of like whoa well we got to make aware of like whoa well we got to make this a good place for life this a good place for life this a good place for life um wine ab is is not your whole life and um wine ab is is not your whole life and um wine ab is is not your whole life and we frame it that way this is not your we frame it that way this is not your we frame it that way this is not your whole life obviously so we want we want whole life obviously so we want we want whole life obviously so we want we want to make it a great place to work to make it a great place to work to make it a great place to work precisely because precisely because precisely because it affects the rest of your life in ways it affects the rest of your life in ways it affects the rest of your life in ways that i think need to be openly that i think need to be openly that i think need to be openly acknowledged stressful work makes for a acknowledged stressful work makes for a acknowledged stressful work makes for a stressful home life period and and i stressful home life period and and i stressful home life period and and i want work to be a joy so that when you want work to be a joy so that when you want work to be a joy so that when you go home you're a little more of a joy go home you're a little more of a joy go home you're a little more of a joy with your kids and with your partner with your kids and with your partner with your kids and with your partner it doesn't mean that it's always rosy at it doesn't mean that it's always rosy at it doesn't mean that it's always rosy at all sometimes it's absolutely stressful all sometimes it's absolutely stressful all sometimes it's absolutely stressful but on the whole i want it to be a place but on the whole i want it to be a place but on the whole i want it to be a place where it's an ad to your life where it where it's an ad to your life where it where it's an ad to your life where it feels like yeah this is feels like yeah this is feels like yeah this is this just feels right i don't like this just feels right i don't like this just feels right i don't like work-life balance because work-life balance because work-life balance because that pretends that there's some that pretends that there's some that pretends that there's some stasis we can find and there isn't it's stasis we can find and there isn't it's stasis we can find and there isn't it's up and down and up and down practically up and down and up and down practically up and down and up and down practically um i think the remoteness helps on that um i think the remoteness helps on that um i think the remoteness helps on that side of things

side of things side of things um um um we're just recognizing people have they we're just recognizing people have they we're just recognizing people have they just yeah they life is part of this just yeah they life is part of this just yeah they life is part of this whole thing whole thing whole thing um i didn't want to say this because um i didn't want to say this because um i didn't want to say this because we're in experiment mode and so i'm a we're in experiment mode and so i'm a we're in experiment mode and so i'm a little leery but we we are we just like little leery but we we are we just like little leery but we we are we just like literally literally literally uh this friday uh this friday uh this friday is the first day that ynab the team will is the first day that ynab the team will is the first day that ynab the team will not be working because we're testing a not be working because we're testing a not be working because we're testing a four day work week four day work week four day work week that is partially an acknowledgment of that is partially an acknowledgment of that is partially an acknowledgment of we think we could maybe be just as we think we could maybe be just as we think we could maybe be just as effective if you read all the reading on effective if you read all the reading on effective if you read all the reading on that stuff that stuff that stuff um it's partially me saying i think this um it's partially me saying i think this um it's partially me saying i think this this is the next this might be a this is the next this might be a this is the next this might be a competitive spot where we need to be competitive spot where we need to be competitive spot where we need to be maybe in seven years you have to do this maybe in seven years you have to do this maybe in seven years you have to do this and and and that's that we'd like to get ahead of that's that we'd like to get ahead of that's that we'd like to get ahead of that that that um but um but um but it's just the idea of like you you bring it's just the idea of like you you bring it's just the idea of like you you bring a person to work and they like their job a person to work and they like their job a person to work and they like their job and their home life is working as well and their home life is working as well and their home life is working as well they're gonna be more productive they're gonna be more productive they're gonna be more productive they're going to stay longer they're going to stay longer they're going to stay longer you know you know you know it's profitable to do it this way like it's profitable to do it this way like it's profitable to do it this way like it's so profitable to treat your team it's so profitable to treat your team it's so profitable to treat your team well and have them stay and rave and well and have them stay and rave and well and have them stay and rave and recruit for you recruit for you recruit for you than it is to think of them as somehow than it is to think of them as somehow than it is to think of them as somehow like turn and burn expendable it's just like turn and burn expendable it's just like turn and burn expendable it's just it's not charitable either i hate when it's not charitable either i hate when it's not charitable either i hate when people are like oh jesse that's so nice people are like oh jesse that's so nice people are like oh jesse that's so nice that's not nice that's cold-blooded that's not nice that's cold-blooded that's not nice that's cold-blooded calculated capitalism you know like i am calculated capitalism you know like i am calculated capitalism you know like i am in this for the profits in this for the profits in this for the profits like that of course i am but i think like that of course i am but i think like that of course i am but i think it's it's profitable to do it this way

it's it's profitable to do it this way it's it's profitable to do it this way it's long term i think not having it's long term i think not having it's long term i think not having investors to give a nod that way i think investors to give a nod that way i think investors to give a nod that way i think that helps you can think long term about that helps you can think long term about that helps you can think long term about your employees so yeah it's but it's not your employees so yeah it's but it's not your employees so yeah it's but it's not about about about i don't know it's not anything above i don't know it's not anything above i don't know it's not anything above just like i think this is a good just like i think this is a good just like i think this is a good business move you know um people will business move you know um people will business move you know um people will say like oh it's a you know it's good say like oh it's a you know it's good say like oh it's a you know it's good it's good of you moral it's good of you moral it's good of you moral i hate i don't like i don't like that i hate i don't like i don't like that i hate i don't like i don't like that one i don't like moral as much on that one i don't like moral as much on that one i don't like moral as much on that as far as the label goes i just i want as far as the label goes i just i want as far as the label goes i just i want it to be smart from a business it to be smart from a business it to be smart from a business standpoint and i firmly believe that it standpoint and i firmly believe that it standpoint and i firmly believe that it is and so far it's proven out that way is and so far it's proven out that way is and so far it's proven out that way and i think folks who have not built a and i think folks who have not built a and i think folks who have not built a company into the company into the company into the 20 30 200 20 30 200 20 30 200 employee level don't realize that employee level don't realize that employee level don't realize that in the end your biggest challenge is in the end your biggest challenge is in the end your biggest challenge is finding great and retaining great people finding great and retaining great people finding great and retaining great people absolutely that's it you know and if you absolutely that's it you know and if you absolutely that's it you know and if you can do that can do that can do that every that you everything else is solved every that you everything else is solved every that you everything else is solved because those great people will solve because those great people will solve because those great people will solve the problems right and especially as the the problems right and especially as the the problems right and especially as the ceo of 100 150 person company you can no ceo of 100 150 person company you can no ceo of 100 150 person company you can no longer solve all the problems even longer solve all the problems even longer solve all the problems even though you used to right but you can't though you used to right but you can't though you used to right but you can't come in and say come in and say come in and say what are we going to market how are we what are we going to market how are we what are we going to market how are we going to do it what's our strategy going to do it what's our strategy going to do it what's our strategy what's our implementation you just what's our implementation you just what's our implementation you just there's too much going on and so you there's too much going on and so you there's too much going on and so you have to have people that are so good and have to have people that are so good and have to have people that are so good and those people can work anywhere they want those people can work anywhere they want those people can work anywhere they want if they're that good and so how do you if they're that good and so how do you if they're that good and so how do you solve for that and that's what you're solve for that and that's what you're solve for that and that's what you're saying is that this you know saying is that this you know saying is that this you know whether it's a four-day work week or whether it's a four-day work week or whether it's a four-day work week or whether it's the whether it's the whether it's the balance that you give people or you know balance that you give people or you know balance that you give people or you know just valuing them outside of just valuing them outside of just valuing them outside of of work of work of work just make it a great place to work just make it a great place to work just make it a great place to work without the that official adage right without the that official adage right without the that official adage right just make it a great place to work yeah just make it a great place to work yeah just make it a great place to work yeah and and uh and it doesn't mean like the and and uh and it doesn't mean like the and and uh and it doesn't mean like the four day work week that that could be a four day work week that that could be a four day work week that that could be a total leak just like a surface tactic

total leak just like a surface tactic total leak just like a surface tactic right right right um or or any number of things like i um or or any number of things like i um or or any number of things like i used to not pay health benefits for the used to not pay health benefits for the used to not pay health benefits for the team because i was like no you just team because i was like no you just team because i was like no you just listen listen listen you just solve your stuff right but you just solve your stuff right but you just solve your stuff right but competitively competitively competitively we we realize like oh man we we have to we we realize like oh man we we have to we we realize like oh man we we have to do this right so we did it um and so do this right so we did it um and so do this right so we did it um and so you're competing in a market and in this you're competing in a market and in this you're competing in a market and in this market competing for top talent is market competing for top talent is market competing for top talent is fierce fierce fierce so you really you have to stand out with so you really you have to stand out with so you really you have to stand out with your core values and find people that your core values and find people that your core values and find people that have your business already inside them have your business already inside them have your business already inside them and then you just make it a profitable and then you just make it a profitable and then you just make it a profitable great place to work for that person and great place to work for that person and great place to work for that person and on the whole profitable right for the on the whole profitable right for the on the whole profitable right for the whole person profitable what does that whole person profitable what does that whole person profitable what does that look like for them they get out more look like for them they get out more look like for them they get out more than they give and then you get out more than they give and then you get out more than they give and then you get out more than they give it's this beautiful than they give it's this beautiful than they give it's this beautiful beautiful thing beautiful thing beautiful thing and uh i i i never grow tired of trying and uh i i i never grow tired of trying and uh i i i never grow tired of trying to solve that top-level problem and then to solve that top-level problem and then to solve that top-level problem and then i love what you said i love what you said i love what you said you push down the problem solving you you push down the problem solving you you push down the problem solving you make experts down make experts down make experts down down in the organization that are doing down in the organization that are doing down in the organization that are doing things that absolutely amaze you that things that absolutely amaze you that things that absolutely amaze you that you never would have come up with you never would have come up with you never would have come up with we have a question from zander on we have a question from zander on we have a question from zander on youtube he says is the four day work youtube he says is the four day work youtube he says is the four day work week 32 hours four eight or is it four week 32 hours four eight or is it four week 32 hours four eight or is it four tens we just locked off friday so yeah tens we just locked off friday so yeah tens we just locked off friday so yeah it's 30 32 hours wow but we don't talk it's 30 32 hours wow but we don't talk it's 30 32 hours wow but we don't talk about hours i mean let's be honest about hours i mean let's be honest about hours i mean let's be honest sometimes it's 30 sometimes like we've sometimes it's 30 sometimes like we've sometimes it's 30 sometimes like we've hired people where they're like hey i hired people where they're like hey i hired people where they're like hey i had to leave a half hour early so i'm had to leave a half hour early so i'm had to leave a half hour early so i'm going to make it up and you're like whoa going to make it up and you're like whoa going to make it up and you're like whoa whoa whoa whoa you need to change yeah yeah it takes you need to change yeah yeah it takes you need to change yeah yeah it takes next month to unwind that right yeah but next month to unwind that right yeah but next month to unwind that right yeah but uh yeah we we're you got to be outcome uh yeah we we're you got to be outcome uh yeah we we're you got to be outcome obsessed and whether it's four day work obsessed and whether it's four day work obsessed and whether it's four day work week working remote where you can't see week working remote where you can't see week working remote where you can't see people and you think you know what people and you think you know what people and you think you know what they're doing

they're doing they're doing you got to just be obsessed with you got to just be obsessed with you got to just be obsessed with outcomes not output outcomes not output outcomes not output so if i were to watch an engineer um so if i were to watch an engineer um so if i were to watch an engineer um chris who i love he's an injury he has a chris who i love he's an injury he has a chris who i love he's an injury he has a six foot six foot six foot wide aquarium in his office where he wide aquarium in his office where he wide aquarium in his office where he works in tennessee and if i were to just works in tennessee and if i were to just works in tennessee and if i were to just spy on him in some really creepy way and spy on him in some really creepy way and spy on him in some really creepy way and i could see him staring at his aquarium i could see him staring at his aquarium i could see him staring at his aquarium for 45 minutes i might be mad like chris for 45 minutes i might be mad like chris for 45 minutes i might be mad like chris is stealing where come on chris why is stealing where come on chris why is stealing where come on chris why aren't i seeing you slinging code but in aren't i seeing you slinging code but in aren't i seeing you slinging code but in that moment he comes up with some that moment he comes up with some that moment he comes up with some algorithm that shaves algorithm that shaves algorithm that shaves 200 grand off our database costs for the 200 grand off our database costs for the 200 grand off our database costs for the year year year outcome right that's it and so you got outcome right that's it and so you got outcome right that's it and so you got to ignore the little devil on your to ignore the little devil on your to ignore the little devil on your shoulder that will be like jesse are shoulder that will be like jesse are shoulder that will be like jesse are they working you got to ignore that and they working you got to ignore that and they working you got to ignore that and you got to look at what they're you got to look at what they're you got to look at what they're producing producing producing just be obsessed over those outcomes how just be obsessed over those outcomes how just be obsessed over those outcomes how they do it you can't get in the middle they do it you can't get in the middle they do it you can't get in the middle of that you don't want to you'll mess of that you don't want to you'll mess of that you don't want to you'll mess things up so yeah absolutely but 3240 things up so yeah absolutely but 3240 things up so yeah absolutely but 3240 all that stuff we lopped off fridays all that stuff we lopped off fridays all that stuff we lopped off fridays except for our support team they had to except for our support team they had to except for our support team they had to do it a little different because you do it a little different because you do it a little different because you know and then we have to obviously hire know and then we have to obviously hire know and then we have to obviously hire up on our support side to to cover up on our support side to to cover up on our support side to to cover the percentage we just lopped off but uh the percentage we just lopped off but uh the percentage we just lopped off but uh we'll see how it goes i i i was told we'll see how it goes i i i was told we'll see how it goes i i i was told even like we're not being public about even like we're not being public about even like we're not being public about this so i i hesitate to even say it this so i i hesitate to even say it this so i i hesitate to even say it because because because i don't want i don't want publicity i don't want i don't want publicity i don't want i don't want publicity around this we're just experimenting around this we're just experimenting around this we're just experimenting with it we're going to see how it works with it we're going to see how it works with it we're going to see how it works for our team right right for our team right right for our team right right well we're approaching time but we do well we're approaching time but we do well we're approaching time but we do have one more question this is from have one more question this is from have one more question this is from tomas tomas tomas youtube and he says the one pager you youtube and he says the one pager you youtube and he says the one pager you mentioned earlier sounds interesting can mentioned earlier sounds interesting can mentioned earlier sounds interesting can you elaborate on it a bit more you elaborate on it a bit more you elaborate on it a bit more yeah so i yeah so i yeah so i it's really simple top level mission

it's really simple top level mission it's really simple top level mission doesn't change doesn't change doesn't change next level is strategy long term your next level is strategy long term your next level is strategy long term your strategy can change but long term three strategy can change but long term three strategy can change but long term three four years probably four years probably four years probably and it's in two buckets core values and and it's in two buckets core values and and it's in two buckets core values and i didn't get into this but i didn't get into this but i didn't get into this but it's not i don't i don't say culture a it's not i don't i don't say culture a it's not i don't i don't say culture a lot it's not like bean bags and foosball lot it's not like bean bags and foosball lot it's not like bean bags and foosball tables i i don't like that tables i i don't like that tables i i don't like that cult your culture is your core values in cult your culture is your core values in cult your culture is your core values in action it's just how how you do action it's just how how you do action it's just how how you do everything so how we handle a refund everything so how we handle a refund everything so how we handle a refund is is is our core values should show in that our core values should show in that our core values should show in that process how we interact how i interact process how we interact how i interact process how we interact how i interact with setting up this call our core with setting up this call our core with setting up this call our core values should show in this process how values should show in this process how values should show in this process how we pitch should show how we sell we pitch should show how we sell we pitch should show how we sell how you do everything is your core value how you do everything is your core value how you do everything is your core value so you look at all your business so you look at all your business so you look at all your business processes and you just say how could we processes and you just say how could we processes and you just say how could we double down on humbly confident double down on humbly confident double down on humbly confident in our customer refund process in our customer refund process in our customer refund process in our invoicing process i'm saying in our invoicing process i'm saying in our invoicing process i'm saying boring processes on purpose boring processes on purpose boring processes on purpose and you're starting to make your core and you're starting to make your core and you're starting to make your core values not just values not just values not just letters on a wall that are kind of there letters on a wall that are kind of there letters on a wall that are kind of there like or on a mouse pad or whatever like or on a mouse pad or whatever like or on a mouse pad or whatever they're they're real they're they're real they're they're real because you're hiring people that are because you're hiring people that are because you're hiring people that are genuine or are helpful and friendly and genuine or are helpful and friendly and genuine or are helpful and friendly and then you're saying hey make this process then you're saying hey make this process then you're saying hey make this process more helpful and friendly and then your more helpful and friendly and then your more helpful and friendly and then your customers notice it's more helpful and customers notice it's more helpful and customers notice it's more helpful and friendly and there's residents all the friendly and there's residents all the friendly and there's residents all the way from your team inside all the way to way from your team inside all the way to way from your team inside all the way to the customer on the outside who is they the customer on the outside who is they the customer on the outside who is they tr attracted to that same tr attracted to that same tr attracted to that same core value and it's this it's this laser core value and it's this it's this laser core value and it's this it's this laser that you run through the whole thing that you run through the whole thing that you run through the whole thing that's why it's strategy because it is

that's why it's strategy because it is that's why it's strategy because it is literally how you conduct business literally how you conduct business literally how you conduct business then the other side of strategy is the then the other side of strategy is the then the other side of strategy is the system you could call it unique selling system you could call it unique selling system you could call it unique selling proposition it's how you compete how you proposition it's how you compete how you proposition it's how you compete how you fit in the market that's right so how do fit in the market that's right so how do fit in the market that's right so how do we compete against mint or we compete against mint or we compete against mint or uh uh uh quickbooks or any number of other quickbooks or any number of other quickbooks or any number of other entrants that come in all the time it's entrants that come in all the time it's entrants that come in all the time it's it's more standard marketing so that's it's more standard marketing so that's it's more standard marketing so that's strategy long term the next one is what strategy long term the next one is what strategy long term the next one is what we call our targets and that's more like we call our targets and that's more like we call our targets and that's more like the three-year look and we're gonna the three-year look and we're gonna the three-year look and we're gonna we're saying okay we want to look at we're saying okay we want to look at we're saying okay we want to look at what our three-year target looks like what our three-year target looks like what our three-year target looks like and then our one-year target and finally and then our one-year target and finally and then our one-year target and finally we have a plan so what our plan will get we have a plan so what our plan will get we have a plan so what our plan will get us to our one-year target and it looks us to our one-year target and it looks us to our one-year target and it looks like what are the outcomes we're looking like what are the outcomes we're looking like what are the outcomes we're looking for high-level company-wide outcomes for high-level company-wide outcomes for high-level company-wide outcomes what are the key metrics and milestones what are the key metrics and milestones what are the key metrics and milestones we'll look to to fill those out and we'll look to to fill those out and we'll look to to fill those out and that's that's standard okr stuff that uh that's that's standard okr stuff that uh that's that's standard okr stuff that uh you can find everywhere so yeah that's you can find everywhere so yeah that's you can find everywhere so yeah that's that is it on one page i love that you that is it on one page i love that you that is it on one page i love that you have the whole thing memorized it's have the whole thing memorized it's have the whole thing memorized it's obvious that it's short enough well it's obvious that it's short enough well it's obvious that it's short enough well it's because i'm sure you've been knee-deep because i'm sure you've been knee-deep because i'm sure you've been knee-deep in it for years and it's short enough in it for years and it's short enough in it for years and it's short enough that you can memorize the whole thing that you can memorize the whole thing that you can memorize the whole thing you know the format and all that did you you know the format and all that did you you know the format and all that did you read a particular book to find out more read a particular book to find out more read a particular book to find out more about that or is this just something about that or is this just something about that or is this just something attraction uh by gino whitman yeah attraction uh by gino whitman yeah attraction uh by gino whitman yeah yeah he was like have this on a page and yeah he was like have this on a page and yeah he was like have this on a page and ours is pretty close to his a little ours is pretty close to his a little ours is pretty close to his a little little different now um but at first we little different now um but at first we little different now um but at first we just took the whole pill as the doctor just took the whole pill as the doctor just took the whole pill as the doctor described with traction and then described with traction and then described with traction and then take the whole pill do it fully take the whole pill do it fully take the whole pill do it fully go a few years and then decide you know go a few years and then decide you know go a few years and then decide you know a little better than the doctor but at a little better than the doctor but at a little better than the doctor but at first just first just first just just acknowledge the doctor and and do just acknowledge the doctor and and do just acknowledge the doctor and and do as prescribed it teaches you a ton to as prescribed it teaches you a ton to as prescribed it teaches you a ton to just do it as prescribed just do it as prescribed just do it as prescribed well jesse thanks so much for joining me well jesse thanks so much for joining me well jesse thanks so much for joining me today i know you have a lot going on

today i know you have a lot going on today i know you have a lot going on appreciate you taking the time are you appreciate you taking the time are you appreciate you taking the time are you on twitter do you is that a good place on twitter do you is that a good place on twitter do you is that a good place to send people i it is not um i am there to send people i it is not um i am there to send people i it is not um i am there you will find me but i don't think i've you will find me but i don't think i've you will find me but i don't think i've tweeted since 2016. okay why is man tweeted since 2016. okay why is man tweeted since 2016. okay why is man you're smart i wish i had this you're smart i wish i had this you're smart i wish i had this self-control so self-control so self-control so you mark it there like twitter twitter you mark it there like twitter twitter you mark it there like twitter twitter for you there's it's more strategic yeah for you there's it's more strategic yeah for you there's it's more strategic yeah exactly so if you need a budget.com if exactly so if you need a budget.com if exactly so if you need a budget.com if folks want to see what you're working on folks want to see what you're working on folks want to see what you're working on and uh your podcasts you're still and uh your podcasts you're still and uh your podcasts you're still hosting those right yeah hosting those right yeah hosting those right yeah people can like uh email me jesse people can like uh email me jesse people can like uh email me jesse ynab.com shoot me an email ynab.com shoot me an email ynab.com shoot me an email answer mondays and thursdays is when answer mondays and thursdays is when answer mondays and thursdays is when you'll get an answer so that's great all you'll get an answer so that's great all you'll get an answer so that's great all right thanks so much for joining me man right thanks so much for joining me man right thanks so much for joining me man thanks rob it's been a pleasure thanks rob it's been a pleasure thanks rob it's been a pleasure all right and as we head out i want to all right and as we head out i want to all right and as we head out i want to remind you that microcomp local london remind you that microcomp local london remind you that microcomp local london is on may 18th so that's just one week is on may 18th so that's just one week is on may 18th so that's just one week from today i will be there myself i'm from today i will be there myself i'm from today i will be there myself i'm flying out in a couple days if you're flying out in a couple days if you're flying out in a couple days if you're interested if you're in the in the range interested if you're in the in the range interested if you're in the in the range it's a one day event microconf it's a one day event microconf it's a one day event microconf local dash london local dash london local dash london i think we could just go micrograph.com i think we could just go micrograph.com i think we could just go micrograph.com locals that'll take you to all of them locals that'll take you to all of them locals that'll take you to all of them and click through and click through and click through and tickets are available and i think and tickets are available and i think and tickets are available and i think we're approaching sellout actually which we're approaching sellout actually which we're approaching sellout actually which is kind of cool it's a smaller event so is kind of cool it's a smaller event so is kind of cool it's a smaller event so it's going to be more intimate um i it's going to be more intimate um i it's going to be more intimate um i believe it's capped around somewhere believe it's capped around somewhere believe it's capped around somewhere between 80 and 100 and it'll be like between 80 and 100 and it'll be like between 80 and 100 and it'll be like three speakers myself um asia rancho three speakers myself um asia rancho three speakers myself um asia rancho brennan done and a lot of hangout time brennan done and a lot of hangout time brennan done and a lot of hangout time uh and then i would also as we roll out uh and then i would also as we roll out uh and then i would also as we roll out love to thank hay and stripe for being love to thank hay and stripe for being love to thank hay and stripe for being our headline partners this year um they our headline partners this year um they our headline partners this year um they i'm sure you're familiar with handstripe i'm sure you're familiar with handstripe i'm sure you're familiar with handstripe but they're they've been great partners but they're they've been great partners but they're they've been great partners for 2020 2021 and now in 2022 i thank

for 2020 2021 and now in 2022 i thank for 2020 2021 and now in 2022 i thank them for their support of independent them for their support of independent them for their support of independent sas startups and with that we're gonna sas startups and with that we're gonna sas startups and with that we're gonna roll out we will see again you know what roll out we will see again you know what roll out we will see again you know what i won't be streaming in two weeks i won't be streaming in two weeks i won't be streaming in two weeks because i'm out of the office but in the because i'm out of the office but in the because i'm out of the office but in the next let's say three or four wednesdays next let's say three or four wednesdays next let's say three or four wednesdays from now i will see you back same time from now i will see you back same time from now i will see you back same time same place thanks again for joining me