Ask Me Anything with Jason Fried, Co-Founder, Hey & Basecamp — MicroConf Remote

[Music] [Music] so so so our our next guest um is our our next guest um is our our next guest um is the co-founder of hey hey.com and so the co-founder of hey hey.com and so the co-founder of hey hey.com and so um hey is a a headline sponsor headline um hey is a a headline sponsor headline um hey is a a headline sponsor headline partner of partner of partner of microconf and startups for the rest of microconf and startups for the rest of microconf and startups for the rest of us um in 2020 and they've been a great us um in 2020 and they've been a great us um in 2020 and they've been a great supporter of ours supporter of ours supporter of ours for the past several years and you know for the past several years and you know for the past several years and you know our next guest jason free joined me our next guest jason free joined me our next guest jason free joined me on stage last year at microcomp growth on stage last year at microcomp growth on stage last year at microcomp growth we had a really good we had a really good we had a really good q a session and conversation where he q a session and conversation where he q a session and conversation where he answered questions about answered questions about answered questions about the early days of base camp he took the early days of base camp he took the early days of base camp he took questions from the audience and was questions from the audience and was questions from the audience and was just very gracious with his time and and just very gracious with his time and and just very gracious with his time and and we really appreciated it we really appreciated it we really appreciated it and uh you know hey has launched this and uh you know hey has launched this and uh you know hey has launched this year this is the new product coming out year this is the new product coming out year this is the new product coming out of base camp of base camp of base camp um and hey has been as i said you know a um and hey has been as i said you know a um and hey has been as i said you know a sponsor and they've come alongside to sponsor and they've come alongside to sponsor and they've come alongside to to try to help this bootstrap indie to try to help this bootstrap indie to try to help this bootstrap indie funded community and and help funded community and and help funded community and and help us be able to provide events like this us be able to provide events like this us be able to provide events like this to you because these to you because these to you because these types of events we'd have to charge a types of events we'd have to charge a types of events we'd have to charge a lot more for them lot more for them lot more for them if we didn't have sponsors like hey um if we didn't have sponsors like hey um if we didn't have sponsors like hey um so i'd love it if you'd give a shout out so i'd love it if you'd give a shout out so i'd love it if you'd give a shout out to hey on twitter and just thank them to hey on twitter and just thank them to hey on twitter and just thank them for supporting for supporting for supporting this bootstrapped community and with this bootstrapped community and with this bootstrapped community and with that i'd love to that i'd love to that i'd love to welcome jason freed the co-founder of welcome jason freed the co-founder of welcome jason freed the co-founder of base camp to the show base camp to the show base camp to the show um you know obviously he's one of the um you know obviously he's one of the um you know obviously he's one of the original badass bootstrappers that original badass bootstrappers that original badass bootstrappers that has consistently provided guidance and has consistently provided guidance and has consistently provided guidance and good advice to founders for good advice to founders for good advice to founders for going on two decades now several books going on two decades now several books going on two decades now several books written with his co-founder dhh written with his co-founder dhh written with his co-founder dhh and obviously an outlier that's you know and obviously an outlier that's you know and obviously an outlier that's you know taking a stair-step approach to the very taking a stair-step approach to the very taking a stair-step approach to the very top top top started building new prep to take their started building new prep to take their started building new prep to take their companies to new heights it's like he he companies to new heights it's like he he companies to new heights it's like he he added many zeros to the

added many zeros to the added many zeros to the to the formula that i think most of us to the formula that i think most of us to the formula that i think most of us uh ascribe to so this is an uh ascribe to so this is an uh ascribe to so this is an ama and ask him anything this is here to ama and ask him anything this is here to ama and ask him anything this is here to answer all your questions about answer all your questions about answer all your questions about what it was like to build hay how the what it was like to build hay how the what it was like to build hay how the successes of base camp served as a basis successes of base camp served as a basis successes of base camp served as a basis for the launch of hay for the launch of hay for the launch of hay and really anything you'd like to ask and really anything you'd like to ask and really anything you'd like to ask them about that i also have a few them about that i also have a few them about that i also have a few questions um to kick us off but you can questions um to kick us off but you can questions um to kick us off but you can just use the question button in shindig just use the question button in shindig just use the question button in shindig and it's it's down below you and we'll and it's it's down below you and we'll and it's it's down below you and we'll try to get to as many of them try to get to as many of them try to get to as many of them as possible my guess is based on how as possible my guess is based on how as possible my guess is based on how these things normally go with jason these things normally go with jason these things normally go with jason there will be more questions that we can there will be more questions that we can there will be more questions that we can possibly answer but we have about um possibly answer but we have about um possibly answer but we have about um well just under 30 minutes now to roll well just under 30 minutes now to roll well just under 30 minutes now to roll in in in so jason sir thank you so much for so jason sir thank you so much for so jason sir thank you so much for sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again oh it's great to be here thanks for oh it's great to be here thanks for oh it's great to be here thanks for having me back yeah it's awesome awesome having me back yeah it's awesome awesome having me back yeah it's awesome awesome to see you again to see you again to see you again are you uh are you in chicago or are you uh are you in chicago or are you uh are you in chicago or california california california i'm currently in california yeah but i'm currently in california yeah but i'm currently in california yeah but primarily primarily primarily living in chicago oh yeah it's nice and living in chicago oh yeah it's nice and living in chicago oh yeah it's nice and sunny outside there so i was thinking sunny outside there so i was thinking sunny outside there so i was thinking you might be on you might be on you might be on on a coast there somewhere so for for on a coast there somewhere so for for on a coast there somewhere so for for folks who don't know so folks who don't know so folks who don't know so anyone can email me rob walling hey.com anyone can email me rob walling hey.com anyone can email me rob walling hey.com if you want to if you want to if you want to hit my hey inbox um but hey is an email hit my hey inbox um but hey is an email hit my hey inbox um but hey is an email service service service that doesn't you know so i want to i that doesn't you know so i want to i that doesn't you know so i want to i want to set the stage right there's want to set the stage right there's want to set the stage right there's gmail gmail gmail and then super human launched a few and then super human launched a few and then super human launched a few years ago and superhuman is built on top years ago and superhuman is built on top years ago and superhuman is built on top of gmail so you need a gmail or google of gmail so you need a gmail or google of gmail so you need a gmail or google apps account to use it apps account to use it apps account to use it hey is not that hey is is next to gmail hey is not that hey is is next to gmail hey is not that hey is is next to gmail like you have like you have like you have bare bones servers smtp top three bare bones servers smtp top three bare bones servers smtp top three all that stuff right it's if you have all that stuff right it's if you have all that stuff right it's if you have you have the entire infrastructure in you have the entire infrastructure in you have the entire infrastructure in place place place yeah hey is an email service so just yeah hey is an email service so just yeah hey is an email service so just like when you sign up for gmail you get like when you sign up for gmail you get like when you sign up for gmail you get a gmail.com address

a gmail.com address a gmail.com address if you sign up for hey you get a hey.com if you sign up for hey you get a hey.com if you sign up for hey you get a hey.com hey.com so we are a provider hey.com so we are a provider hey.com so we are a provider you don't need to use google you don't you don't need to use google you don't you don't need to use google you don't need to use outlook you don't need to need to use outlook you don't need to need to use outlook you don't need to use apple icloud you don't need to use use apple icloud you don't need to use use apple icloud you don't need to use any other email provider any other email provider any other email provider and the reason we did that is because we and the reason we did that is because we and the reason we did that is because we wanted to innovate we wanted to make new wanted to innovate we wanted to make new wanted to innovate we wanted to make new something new something new something new and if you're riding on top of someone and if you're riding on top of someone and if you're riding on top of someone else's platform like most email clients else's platform like most email clients else's platform like most email clients sit on top of gmail or whatever smtp sit on top of gmail or whatever smtp sit on top of gmail or whatever smtp provider provider provider you there's not a lot you can really do you there's not a lot you can really do you there's not a lot you can really do because you're beholden to how they because you're beholden to how they because you're beholden to how they do things so if you want to do something do things so if you want to do something do things so if you want to do something new you've got to start from the ground new you've got to start from the ground new you've got to start from the ground up up up um you've got to be vertically um you've got to be vertically um you've got to be vertically integrated in that way and that's where integrated in that way and that's where integrated in that way and that's where you can really make some changes you can really make some changes you can really make some changes and you know so obviously i mean base and you know so obviously i mean base and you know so obviously i mean base camp is an amazing success story camp is an amazing success story camp is an amazing success story but you know compared let's compare your but you know compared let's compare your but you know compared let's compare your revenue to google microsoft apple these revenue to google microsoft apple these revenue to google microsoft apple these other companies you're competing with other companies you're competing with other companies you're competing with it's there's there's a lot of zeros it's there's there's a lot of zeros it's there's there's a lot of zeros difference there so difference there so difference there so why a lot yeah why a lot yeah why a lot yeah yeah what i guess you know yeah what i guess you know yeah what i guess you know what is in your dna you know the dna of what is in your dna you know the dna of what is in your dna you know the dna of base camp that convinced you guys that base camp that convinced you guys that base camp that convinced you guys that hey we can take on these these bigger hey we can take on these these bigger hey we can take on these these bigger players players players well for one i mean yeah technically well for one i mean yeah technically well for one i mean yeah technically we're taking them on because a lot of we're taking them on because a lot of we're taking them on because a lot of our customers our customers our customers have switched over from from have switched over from from have switched over from from gmail for primarily from gmail over to gmail for primarily from gmail over to gmail for primarily from gmail over to hey so technically yes we're competing hey so technically yes we're competing hey so technically yes we're competing but not really and what i mean by that but not really and what i mean by that but not really and what i mean by that is i think is i think is i think gmail has 1.5 billion email accounts gmail has 1.5 billion email accounts gmail has 1.5 billion email accounts on gmail we're not going to have that on gmail we're not going to have that on gmail we're not going to have that we're not we're not we're not looking for that we're not even in that

looking for that we're not even in that looking for that we're not even in that realm and we don't want to be you know realm and we don't want to be you know realm and we don't want to be you know we're a paid service we're a paid service we're a paid service so we're not giving email away for free so we're not giving email away for free so we're not giving email away for free and just like with basecamp you know if and just like with basecamp you know if and just like with basecamp you know if we get a hundred thousand paid customers we get a hundred thousand paid customers we get a hundred thousand paid customers we're in a pretty good position so we're in a pretty good position so we're in a pretty good position so that's kind of what we're looking for that's kind of what we're looking for that's kind of what we're looking for we're looking for people who really care we're looking for people who really care we're looking for people who really care about email who about email who about email who are frustrated to no end with it looking are frustrated to no end with it looking are frustrated to no end with it looking for something new looking for something for something new looking for something for something new looking for something that's private that's private that's private looking for something that's not going looking for something that's not going looking for something that's not going to mind your data and looking at it to mind your data and looking at it to mind your data and looking at it something that has built-in workflows something that has built-in workflows something that has built-in workflows and not workarounds and not workarounds and not workarounds and so if we get 100 000 200 000 of and so if we get 100 000 200 000 of and so if we get 100 000 200 000 of those kinds of people those kinds of people those kinds of people we're in a good place so we don't need we're in a good place so we don't need we're in a good place so we don't need to match google or outlook or to match google or outlook or to match google or outlook or or or yahoo different game although or or yahoo different game although or or yahoo different game although we're playing the same by the some of we're playing the same by the some of we're playing the same by the some of the same rules and that we're a service the same rules and that we're a service the same rules and that we're a service provider like they are but but our provider like they are but but our provider like they are but but our approach is very different so approach is very different so approach is very different so yeah i mean it's the stupidest thing yeah i mean it's the stupidest thing yeah i mean it's the stupidest thing we've ever done and i mean that in the we've ever done and i mean that in the we've ever done and i mean that in the most most most you know appealing way um but we're also you know appealing way um but we're also you know appealing way um but we're also not really trying to we're like for us not really trying to we're like for us not really trying to we're like for us we're not gonna look and go like we're not gonna look and go like we're not gonna look and go like we didn't we didn't get you know we we didn't we didn't get you know we we didn't we didn't get you know we didn't beat gmail so we lost like that's didn't beat gmail so we lost like that's didn't beat gmail so we lost like that's just not how we look at things in just not how we look at things in just not how we look at things in general yeah general yeah general yeah here's the other thing i want to say here's the other thing i want to say here's the other thing i want to say about this is that companies have their about this is that companies have their about this is that companies have their own economics own economics own economics and this is something you don't hear and this is something you don't hear and this is something you don't hear enough about in my opinion which is that enough about in my opinion which is that enough about in my opinion which is that people are like well how do you compete people are like well how do you compete people are like well how do you compete with them and how do you compete with with them and how do you compete with with them and how do you compete with them and well one of the first questions them and well one of the first questions them and well one of the first questions i would ask is like i would ask is like i would ask is like what are your costs because if your what are your costs because if your what are your costs because if your costs are a lot less than everyone costs are a lot less than everyone costs are a lot less than everyone else's costs else's costs else's costs then you can afford to compete in a then you can afford to compete in a then you can afford to compete in a different level like if we had to get a different level like if we had to get a different level like if we had to get a billion signups to make this thing billion signups to make this thing billion signups to make this thing viable for us well then we're probably viable for us well then we're probably viable for us well then we're probably not going to be not going to be not going to be gmail but we don't need that we need gmail but we don't need that we need gmail but we don't need that we need tens of thousands or a hundred thousand

tens of thousands or a hundred thousand tens of thousands or a hundred thousand or a couple hundred thousand like over a or a couple hundred thousand like over a or a couple hundred thousand like over a number of years because our cost number of years because our cost number of years because our cost structure structure structure is is set up completely differently we is is set up completely differently we is is set up completely differently we don't need that much to cover our cost don't need that much to cover our cost don't need that much to cover our cost compared to what compared to what compared to what google does of course when they have you google does of course when they have you google does of course when they have you know tens of thousands of employees so know tens of thousands of employees so know tens of thousands of employees so you got to start with that and then then you got to start with that and then then you got to start with that and then then you can sort of figure out what makes you can sort of figure out what makes you can sort of figure out what makes sense for you it doesn't you don't have sense for you it doesn't you don't have sense for you it doesn't you don't have to to to do what someone else does you got to do do what someone else does you got to do do what someone else does you got to do what works for you what works for you what works for you and that's really an important thing i and that's really an important thing i and that's really an important thing i think for entrepreneurs think for entrepreneurs think for entrepreneurs yeah no i think that's really important yeah no i think that's really important yeah no i think that's really important thanks for calling that out you thanks for calling that out you thanks for calling that out you mentioned a couple mentioned a couple mentioned a couple differentiators you know you said you're differentiators you know you said you're differentiators you know you said you're very privacy focused very privacy focused very privacy focused uh workflows not workarounds um do you uh workflows not workarounds um do you uh workflows not workarounds um do you want to dive into those two and maybe if want to dive into those two and maybe if want to dive into those two and maybe if there are any others that are you know there are any others that are you know there are any others that are you know common talking points about how you are common talking points about how you are common talking points about how you are different why you're different than different why you're different than different why you're different than these other providers these other providers these other providers yeah for sure let's start with privacy yeah for sure let's start with privacy yeah for sure let's start with privacy um one of the big problems with email um one of the big problems with email um one of the big problems with email and i'm going to hit it from a couple and i'm going to hit it from a couple and i'm going to hit it from a couple different angles but one of the big different angles but one of the big different angles but one of the big problems with email of course is that problems with email of course is that problems with email of course is that you're not in control of who can contact you're not in control of who can contact you're not in control of who can contact you it used to be that you'd give out you it used to be that you'd give out you it used to be that you'd give out your email address to someone your email address to someone your email address to someone and only that person would have it and and only that person would have it and and only that person would have it and you that was how you kept control over you that was how you kept control over you that was how you kept control over who can get touch with you but who can get touch with you but who can get touch with you but these days your email address has been these days your email address has been these days your email address has been bought and sold and traded and posted bought and sold and traded and posted bought and sold and traded and posted online online online it's everywhere so we've stopped being it's everywhere so we've stopped being it's everywhere so we've stopped being in control in control in control of who can get in touch with us which is of who can get in touch with us which is of who can get in touch with us which is a problem if someone calls your cell a problem if someone calls your cell a problem if someone calls your cell phone phone phone and you don't recognize the number you and you don't recognize the number you and you don't recognize the number you just don't pick it up it's very there's just don't pick it up it's very there's just don't pick it up it's very there's very little effort just to go ahead no very little effort just to go ahead no very little effort just to go ahead no with email anyone who emails you with email anyone who emails you with email anyone who emails you basically lands in your inbox basically lands in your inbox basically lands in your inbox this is a problem it's a fundamental this is a problem it's a fundamental this is a problem it's a fundamental problem with email today problem with email today problem with email today so with hey you get to decide who can so with hey you get to decide who can so with hey you get to decide who can email you email you email you the first time somebody emails you you the first time somebody emails you you the first time somebody emails you you give them a thumbs up or a thumbs down give them a thumbs up or a thumbs down give them a thumbs up or a thumbs down and if they're thumbs down you'll never

and if they're thumbs down you'll never and if they're thumbs down you'll never hear from them again hear from them again hear from them again so that's one version of privacy which so that's one version of privacy which so that's one version of privacy which is that you are in control who can get is that you are in control who can get is that you are in control who can get in touch with you you're in control who in touch with you you're in control who in touch with you you're in control who can communicate with you can communicate with you can communicate with you the other side of course is that we um the other side of course is that we um the other side of course is that we um we don't sell ads so we're not minding we don't sell ads so we're not minding we don't sell ads so we're not minding your data we're not looking at your data your data we're not looking at your data your data we're not looking at your data we're not pulling anything out of your we're not pulling anything out of your we're not pulling anything out of your data data data not interesting to us don't want to do not interesting to us don't want to do not interesting to us don't want to do that ever and also that ever and also that ever and also we um we block trackers so we um we block trackers so we um we block trackers so what a lot of people don't know is these what a lot of people don't know is these what a lot of people don't know is these days by simply opening an email days by simply opening an email days by simply opening an email with no indication this is the case if with no indication this is the case if with no indication this is the case if you just open an email you just open an email you just open an email the sender the person who sent it to you the sender the person who sent it to you the sender the person who sent it to you can receive all sorts of personal can receive all sorts of personal can receive all sorts of personal information about you information about you information about you how long you read the email if you how long you read the email if you how long you read the email if you opened it how often you opened it what opened it how often you opened it what opened it how often you opened it what kind of phone you have what brand kind of phone you have what brand kind of phone you have what brand computer you have what time it was your computer you have what time it was your computer you have what time it was your ip address which they can give you ip address which they can give you ip address which they can give you you know basically get you down to some you know basically get you down to some you know basically get you down to some local information that way as well local information that way as well local information that way as well we block all that so if someone tries to we block all that so if someone tries to we block all that so if someone tries to include a tracker an email and you're a include a tracker an email and you're a include a tracker an email and you're a hey.com customer hey.com customer hey.com customer they will not know anything about you so they will not know anything about you so they will not know anything about you so we're protecting your privacy on that we're protecting your privacy on that we're protecting your privacy on that side too so one number one is control side too so one number one is control side too so one number one is control number two is on the back end we're number two is on the back end we're number two is on the back end we're making sure that nobody learns anything making sure that nobody learns anything making sure that nobody learns anything about you about your behavior no one about you about your behavior no one about you about your behavior no one tracks you tracks you tracks you simply by opening an email now that's simply by opening an email now that's simply by opening an email now that's some of the privacy stuff there's a some of the privacy stuff there's a some of the privacy stuff there's a bunch of other things as well but bunch of other things as well but bunch of other things as well but the the bigger thing though to me is is the the bigger thing though to me is is the the bigger thing though to me is is the workflow situation the workflow situation the workflow situation what's amazing to me about email is that what's amazing to me about email is that what's amazing to me about email is that email has not evolved email has not evolved email has not evolved for about 16 years 16 years ago gmail for about 16 years 16 years ago gmail for about 16 years 16 years ago gmail came out came out came out and it felt different it had new ideas and it felt different it had new ideas and it felt different it had new ideas in it in it in it the thing is is that we're still stuck the thing is is that we're still stuck the thing is is that we're still stuck doing the same things we've always done doing the same things we've always done doing the same things we've always done and no one's really come up with better and no one's really come up with better and no one's really come up with better workflows for example workflows for example workflows for example simple one someone sends you an email simple one someone sends you an email simple one someone sends you an email and you need to get back to someone

and you need to get back to someone and you need to get back to someone later later later comment this happens all the time it's comment this happens all the time it's comment this happens all the time it's like yeah i gotta get back to that like yeah i gotta get back to that like yeah i gotta get back to that person later so what do you do person later so what do you do person later so what do you do you hack you hack it you like mark it you hack you hack it you like mark it you hack you hack it you like mark it unread again maybe you star it or flag unread again maybe you star it or flag unread again maybe you star it or flag it it it maybe you maybe you make a folder or a maybe you maybe you make a folder or a maybe you maybe you make a folder or a label and put some stuff in there maybe label and put some stuff in there maybe label and put some stuff in there maybe you snooze it you snooze it you snooze it none of those things have anything to do none of those things have anything to do none of those things have anything to do with with with the mental understanding that i need to the mental understanding that i need to the mental understanding that i need to get back to someone later get back to someone later get back to someone later so you're hacking around with so you're hacking around with so you're hacking around with workarounds to try to remember that you workarounds to try to remember that you workarounds to try to remember that you need to do something later need to do something later need to do something later and you're using all these different and you're using all these different and you're using all these different things that aren't quite right so with things that aren't quite right so with things that aren't quite right so with hey which of a button on every email hey which of a button on every email hey which of a button on every email that says reply later that says reply later that says reply later and when you say reply later it goes and when you say reply later it goes and when you say reply later it goes into a nice pile along with all the into a nice pile along with all the into a nice pile along with all the other emails that you said reply later other emails that you said reply later other emails that you said reply later to to to then you can go into a mode called focus then you can go into a mode called focus then you can go into a mode called focus and reply you and reply you and reply you click that it opens up all those emails click that it opens up all those emails click that it opens up all those emails it stacks them one on top of the other it stacks them one on top of the other it stacks them one on top of the other and lets you simply reply to those one and lets you simply reply to those one and lets you simply reply to those one after another without being interrupted after another without being interrupted after another without being interrupted or distracted by or distracted by or distracted by anything else that's happening and it's anything else that's happening and it's anything else that's happening and it's an entirely different way an entirely different way an entirely different way to work on email and it saves you it to work on email and it saves you it to work on email and it saves you it saves me saves me saves me hours a week which is significant um hours a week which is significant um hours a week which is significant um and it saves me a lot of hassle and it and it saves me a lot of hassle and it and it saves me a lot of hassle and it allows me to say okay i've got allows me to say okay i've got allows me to say okay i've got like 30 minutes now i'm going to knock like 30 minutes now i'm going to knock like 30 minutes now i'm going to knock out all my emails at the end of the day out all my emails at the end of the day out all my emails at the end of the day i know exactly where they are nothing i know exactly where they are nothing i know exactly where they are nothing else is going to get my way so else is going to get my way so else is going to get my way so we've got a dozen or so of those kinds we've got a dozen or so of those kinds we've got a dozen or so of those kinds of workflows built into hay of workflows built into hay of workflows built into hay versus workarounds where you're trying versus workarounds where you're trying versus workarounds where you're trying to make one thing do something else so to make one thing do something else so to make one thing do something else so we thought about all that stuff and we we thought about all that stuff and we we thought about all that stuff and we were so frustrated by the fact that like were so frustrated by the fact that like were so frustrated by the fact that like email just hasn't changed in so long email just hasn't changed in so long email just hasn't changed in so long it's time to do something new and that's it's time to do something new and that's it's time to do something new and that's what hay is all about what hay is all about what hay is all about awesome we have a we have questions

awesome we have a we have questions awesome we have a we have questions pouring in from the listeners as you pouring in from the listeners as you pouring in from the listeners as you would expect would expect would expect um i want to jump down to one producer um i want to jump down to one producer um i want to jump down to one producer xander from brian yiddo because it ties xander from brian yiddo because it ties xander from brian yiddo because it ties into something i was going to ask you into something i was going to ask you into something i was going to ask you about anyways jason about anyways jason about anyways jason this question is how is hayes pushback this question is how is hayes pushback this question is how is hayes pushback on apple's app store on apple's app store on apple's app store terms of service going and if you terms of service going and if you terms of service going and if you wouldn't mind just giving a wouldn't mind just giving a wouldn't mind just giving a you know a couple sentences or one you know a couple sentences or one you know a couple sentences or one minute description of what happened minute description of what happened minute description of what happened there with apple there with apple there with apple uh to catch people up and then talk uh to catch people up and then talk uh to catch people up and then talk about you know has there been a about you know has there been a about you know has there been a resolution and what that's been resolution and what that's been resolution and what that's been yeah of course um so yeah of course um so yeah of course um so when we launched hey we put 1.0 version when we launched hey we put 1.0 version when we launched hey we put 1.0 version 1.0 in the app store apple app store and 1.0 in the app store apple app store and 1.0 in the app store apple app store and android store android store android store both were approved which was wonderful both were approved which was wonderful both were approved which was wonderful and then we were and then we were and then we were we put a 1.0.2 bug release version we put a 1.0.2 bug release version we put a 1.0.2 bug release version or update into the app store in the or update into the app store in the or update into the app store in the apple app store a few days later apple app store a few days later apple app store a few days later and apple rejected it and they rejected and apple rejected it and they rejected and apple rejected it and they rejected it even though it even though it even though nothing materially changed they rejected nothing materially changed they rejected nothing materially changed they rejected on the ground that we weren't giving on the ground that we weren't giving on the ground that we weren't giving them 30 percent of our revenue them 30 percent of our revenue them 30 percent of our revenue because we were selling a subscription because we were selling a subscription because we were selling a subscription service and somehow that slipped by the service and somehow that slipped by the service and somehow that slipped by the reviewers in the first place is what reviewers in the first place is what reviewers in the first place is what what apple claimed what apple claimed what apple claimed um and so we got in this battle with um and so we got in this battle with um and so we got in this battle with apple basically apple said you have to apple basically apple said you have to apple basically apple said you have to give us 30 give us 30 give us 30 of your revenues and we said we're not of your revenues and we said we're not of your revenues and we said we're not giving you 30 of our revenues giving you 30 of our revenues giving you 30 of our revenues um and they gave us some other things um and they gave us some other things um and they gave us some other things and this basically kind of blew up in and this basically kind of blew up in and this basically kind of blew up in the press we went to the press over the press we went to the press over the press we went to the press over because it was a strong arm tactic by because it was a strong arm tactic by because it was a strong arm tactic by apple to apple to apple to extract 30 of our business which they extract 30 of our business which they extract 30 of our business which they are not entitled to are not entitled to are not entitled to um the problem is that on ios of course um the problem is that on ios of course um the problem is that on ios of course everybody knows you don't have choice so everybody knows you don't have choice so everybody knows you don't have choice so we can't sell we can't even mention that we can't sell we can't even mention that we can't sell we can't even mention that we can sell our product we can sell our product we can sell our product some other way we can't mention billing some other way we can't mention billing some other way we can't mention billing we can't mention credit cards we can't

we can't mention credit cards we can't we can't mention credit cards we can't mention sign up can't mention all these mention sign up can't mention all these mention sign up can't mention all these things we didn't mention any of those things we didn't mention any of those things we didn't mention any of those things things things long story short is um we got into a big long story short is um we got into a big long story short is um we got into a big public uh public uh public uh battle with apple over this um it was battle with apple over this um it was battle with apple over this um it was all over the press for about a week all over the press for about a week all over the press for about a week and we we didn't give in on terms of the and we we didn't give in on terms of the and we we didn't give in on terms of the 30 we're not paying them 30 percent 30 we're not paying them 30 percent 30 we're not paying them 30 percent but what we did eventually come to terms but what we did eventually come to terms but what we did eventually come to terms with with them over was um with with them over was um with with them over was um we introduced a slightly well free we introduced a slightly well free we introduced a slightly well free version uh version uh version uh of hey that's available on ios which is of hey that's available on ios which is of hey that's available on ios which is a slightly different version from our a slightly different version from our a slightly different version from our main product main product main product and if you still want to buy hey the and if you still want to buy hey the and if you still want to buy hey the full version you still go to hey.com and full version you still go to hey.com and full version you still go to hey.com and you buy it there you buy it there you buy it there but at least when you load the app up but at least when you load the app up but at least when you load the app up there's something that you can sign up there's something that you can sign up there's something that you can sign up for for for that doesn't require visiting our that doesn't require visiting our that doesn't require visiting our website so it turned out that apple was website so it turned out that apple was website so it turned out that apple was comfortable with that we're still not comfortable with that we're still not comfortable with that we're still not giving them 30 of our revenue giving them 30 of our revenue giving them 30 of our revenue um but they were comfortable with at um but they were comfortable with at um but they were comfortable with at least the app doing something on least the app doing something on least the app doing something on on launch um but the the bigger thing on launch um but the the bigger thing on launch um but the the bigger thing here here here is not there's a few things going on so is not there's a few things going on so is not there's a few things going on so there's the percent which of course there's the percent which of course there's the percent which of course i think is just you know uh i think is just you know uh i think is just you know uh usually it's it's it's unfair it's two usually it's it's it's unfair it's two usually it's it's it's unfair it's two it's too much first of all it's too much first of all it's too much first of all but it's deeper than that and this is i but it's deeper than that and this is i but it's deeper than that and this is i think will resonate with with people who think will resonate with with people who think will resonate with with people who are who are watching this who are are who are watching this who are are who are watching this who are entrepreneurs which is that entrepreneurs which is that entrepreneurs which is that i do not believe that a company any i do not believe that a company any i do not believe that a company any company should be able to tell me how i company should be able to tell me how i company should be able to tell me how i can service and treat my customers one can service and treat my customers one can service and treat my customers one of the big of the big of the big unknown things about the app store is unknown things about the app store is unknown things about the app store is that when that when that when if you use the in-app payment system if you use the in-app payment system if you use the in-app payment system that apple requires you to use if you that apple requires you to use if you that apple requires you to use if you sell products through apple sell products through apple sell products through apple is that you cannot provide your is that you cannot provide your is that you cannot provide your customers a certain level of customer customers a certain level of customer customers a certain level of customer service if you have a billing issue you service if you have a billing issue you service if you have a billing issue you have to defer them to apple

have to defer them to apple have to defer them to apple if you want to give them a discount you if you want to give them a discount you if you want to give them a discount you can't if you want to give them half off can't if you want to give them half off can't if you want to give them half off you can't you can't you can't if you want to give them a hardship if you want to give them a hardship if you want to give them a hardship discount you can't for example discount you can't for example discount you can't for example when covid first hit a lot of our when covid first hit a lot of our when covid first hit a lot of our customers on base camp wrote us saying customers on base camp wrote us saying customers on base camp wrote us saying hey we're small businesses this is hey we're small businesses this is hey we're small businesses this is really going to get take a big hit this really going to get take a big hit this really going to get take a big hit this is really hard for us we said is really hard for us we said is really hard for us we said we'll give you a couple months free we'll give you a couple months free we'll give you a couple months free don't worry about it like we'll help you don't worry about it like we'll help you don't worry about it like we'll help you out we're here to help you out we're here to help you out we're here to help you you can't do that once you've given your you can't do that once you've given your you can't do that once you've given your customer to apple because you're not in customer to apple because you're not in customer to apple because you're not in control of the billing system control of the billing system control of the billing system so now i have two tiers of customers i so now i have two tiers of customers i so now i have two tiers of customers i have the customers i can really help the have the customers i can really help the have the customers i can really help the way i want to help them way i want to help them way i want to help them and i have the customers have to say and i have the customers have to say and i have the customers have to say well you got to go talk to apple and by well you got to go talk to apple and by well you got to go talk to apple and by the way apple's not going to be able to the way apple's not going to be able to the way apple's not going to be able to help you because that's not what the help you because that's not what the help you because that's not what the business apple's in business apple's in business apple's in it's not apple's right to be able to do it's not apple's right to be able to do it's not apple's right to be able to do that to me that to me that to me they're a one trillion dollar company they're a one trillion dollar company they're a one trillion dollar company why should they tell me how i can why should they tell me how i can why should they tell me how i can provide service to my customers it's provide service to my customers it's provide service to my customers it's completely completely completely abhorrent to me and i'm not going to abhorrent to me and i'm not going to abhorrent to me and i'm not going to give in to that so that was another big give in to that so that was another big give in to that so that was another big big angle that we pushed all this big angle that we pushed all this big angle that we pushed all this forward and out there and a lot of forward and out there and a lot of forward and out there and a lot of people started to pay attention and saw people started to pay attention and saw people started to pay attention and saw people came out of the woodwork saying people came out of the woodwork saying people came out of the woodwork saying apple's been doing this to us for years apple's been doing this to us for years apple's been doing this to us for years apple's been pushing us and bullying us apple's been pushing us and bullying us apple's been pushing us and bullying us for years and i think it created a for years and i think it created a for years and i think it created a groundswell of of um groundswell of of um groundswell of of um of interest and excitement and then um of interest and excitement and then um of interest and excitement and then um you know apple changed the rules at wwc you know apple changed the rules at wwc you know apple changed the rules at wwc the following week um hopefully the following week um hopefully the following week um hopefully influenced a little bit by what we did influenced a little bit by what we did influenced a little bit by what we did and hopefully over time they'll change and hopefully over time they'll change and hopefully over time they'll change them more and more and more and give them more and more and more and give them more and more and more and give developers choice developers choice developers choice uh i can go into more detail but i don't uh i can go into more detail but i don't uh i can go into more detail but i don't want to take over all the time but want to take over all the time but want to take over all the time but that's kind of that's kind of that's kind of how that happened yeah bravo yeah thank how that happened yeah bravo yeah thank how that happened yeah bravo yeah thank you sir good explanation you sir good explanation you sir good explanation um completely another direction we have um completely another direction we have um completely another direction we have a question from a question from a question from quang von and he says is hey using ruby quang von and he says is hey using ruby quang von and he says is hey using ruby on the back end oh yes all of our on the back end oh yes all of our on the back end oh yes all of our products are built on on rails

products are built on on rails products are built on on rails um so yep hey base camp high rise um so yep hey base camp high rise um so yep hey base camp high rise campfire backpack everything campfire backpack everything campfire backpack everything from this point back forward or four or from this point back forward or four or from this point back forward or four or backwards and forwards is built on rails backwards and forwards is built on rails backwards and forwards is built on rails there's other technologies we're using there's other technologies we're using there's other technologies we're using as well but as well but as well but rails rails is the predominant uh rails rails is the predominant uh rails rails is the predominant uh language behind everything language behind everything language behind everything yep or framework um ah i'm trying to figure out if i ah i'm trying to figure out if i understand this question it's from understand this question it's from understand this question it's from adrian fletcher adrian fletcher adrian fletcher and it says what features were base camp and it says what features were base camp and it says what features were base camp hay hay hay employees really upset to ignore or miss employees really upset to ignore or miss employees really upset to ignore or miss out on out on out on in order to launch the service so i in order to launch the service so i in order to launch the service so i think what he's asking is what did you think what he's asking is what did you think what he's asking is what did you leave out of hay leave out of hay leave out of hay that maybe team members really wanted to that maybe team members really wanted to that maybe team members really wanted to be in there but you you just oh my god so many things here's the thing about a so many things here's the thing about a 1.0 1.0 1.0 version 1.0 of anything is not version 1.0 of anything is not version 1.0 of anything is not all your ideas it's not the best version all your ideas it's not the best version all your ideas it's not the best version it's not everything you've ever wanted it's not everything you've ever wanted it's not everything you've ever wanted to do it's simply to do it's simply to do it's simply what made the cut and there are so many what made the cut and there are so many what made the cut and there are so many things that didn't make the cut things that didn't make the cut things that didn't make the cut that will add in subsequent releases that will add in subsequent releases that will add in subsequent releases we've already added some we'll be adding we've already added some we'll be adding we've already added some we'll be adding more and more down the road we're more and more down the road we're more and more down the road we're currently working on hey for work which currently working on hey for work which currently working on hey for work which will allow companies to use hay will allow companies to use hay will allow companies to use hay and all the employees to use hay and all the employees to use hay and all the employees to use hay together and host your your company's together and host your your company's together and host your your company's email on that so we're working on that email on that so we're working on that email on that so we're working on that right now right now right now there are so many things um one of the there are so many things um one of the there are so many things um one of the features that didn't make it features that didn't make it features that didn't make it that i really liked was simply a feature that i really liked was simply a feature that i really liked was simply a feature called waiting on called waiting on called waiting on sometimes you send an email to somebody sometimes you send an email to somebody sometimes you send an email to somebody and you're waiting on a reply from them and you're waiting on a reply from them and you're waiting on a reply from them and so we had this feature we built the

and so we had this feature we built the and so we had this feature we built the feature early on where you'd you'd mark feature early on where you'd you'd mark feature early on where you'd you'd mark something waiting on and it would put it something waiting on and it would put it something waiting on and it would put it into a separate pile so you can keep into a separate pile so you can keep into a separate pile so you can keep track of the things that you really know track of the things that you really know track of the things that you really know you need to hear back from someone about you need to hear back from someone about you need to hear back from someone about so you can see you can go to that list so you can see you can go to that list so you can see you can go to that list later and go oh yeah these are the six later and go oh yeah these are the six later and go oh yeah these are the six things that i really need to get things that i really need to get things that i really need to get answers back from and then the system answers back from and then the system answers back from and then the system could potentially send could potentially send could potentially send out a nag or something to the other out a nag or something to the other out a nag or something to the other person saying hey jason really needs to person saying hey jason really needs to person saying hey jason really needs to hear about this or whatever hear about this or whatever hear about this or whatever as we started using it we didn't build as we started using it we didn't build as we started using it we didn't build the whole feature we just built the whole feature we just built the whole feature we just built basically the way to flag something is basically the way to flag something is basically the way to flag something is waiting on and it didn't have enough waiting on and it didn't have enough waiting on and it didn't have enough bite there wasn't enough value in it bite there wasn't enough value in it bite there wasn't enough value in it without without without kind of completing the whole idea which kind of completing the whole idea which kind of completing the whole idea which is like the the additional system is like the the additional system is like the the additional system going out and helping you out by going out and helping you out by going out and helping you out by reminding the other person that you need reminding the other person that you need reminding the other person that you need something by a certain time something by a certain time something by a certain time so since we didn't build the whole thing so since we didn't build the whole thing so since we didn't build the whole thing we decided to hold it back we decided to hold it back we decided to hold it back so we didn't build sort of a half-assed so we didn't build sort of a half-assed so we didn't build sort of a half-assed piece of software so we held that back piece of software so we held that back piece of software so we held that back there's a lot of things like that there's a lot of things like that there's a lot of things like that that we that we held back that weren't that we that we held back that weren't that we that we held back that weren't fully formed but the idea is right and fully formed but the idea is right and fully formed but the idea is right and it's there it's there it's there and we'll get to it later when we can and we'll get to it later when we can and we'll get to it later when we can complete the whole thing and put the complete the whole thing and put the complete the whole thing and put the whole thing out whole thing out whole thing out but there's a number of little things but there's a number of little things but there's a number of little things like that but waiting on is one of those like that but waiting on is one of those like that but waiting on is one of those like like like the first thing that comes to mind is the first thing that comes to mind is the first thing that comes to mind is something i still want today something i still want today something i still want today but we didn't really make it useful but we didn't really make it useful but we didn't really make it useful enough to put it out there and i'd enough to put it out there and i'd enough to put it out there and i'd rather kind of rather kind of rather kind of make a splash with it when it's actually make a splash with it when it's actually make a splash with it when it's actually really fully ready really fully ready really fully ready but there's literally hundreds of things but there's literally hundreds of things but there's literally hundreds of things we didn't do we didn't do we didn't do that we're gonna do in 2021 specifically that we're gonna do in 2021 specifically that we're gonna do in 2021 specifically is going to be pretty exciting for hey is going to be pretty exciting for hey is going to be pretty exciting for hey we've got a lot of things planned this we've got a lot of things planned this we've got a lot of things planned this will be pretty fun will be pretty fun will be pretty fun awesome did i read somewhere and correct awesome did i read somewhere and correct awesome did i read somewhere and correct me if i'm wrong but me if i'm wrong but me if i'm wrong but i think it was posted in a tiny seed i think it was posted in a tiny seed i think it was posted in a tiny seed slack by just a founder who's commenting

slack by just a founder who's commenting slack by just a founder who's commenting that that that did you guys release numbers either like did you guys release numbers either like did you guys release numbers either like mrr that you launched to or mrr that you launched to or mrr that you launched to or number of customers or number of users number of customers or number of users number of customers or number of users was it like a hundred thousand users a was it like a hundred thousand users a was it like a hundred thousand users a month already month already month already or something yeah so when hey first or something yeah so when hey first or something yeah so when hey first launched launched launched we signed up about 200 000 people in the we signed up about 200 000 people in the we signed up about 200 000 people in the first few weeks first few weeks first few weeks so the the interest was off the charts so the the interest was off the charts so the the interest was off the charts we didn't expect we we knew we had we didn't expect we we knew we had we didn't expect we we knew we had something something something really good here um we didn't know that really good here um we didn't know that really good here um we didn't know that it was really going to strike a nerve it was really going to strike a nerve it was really going to strike a nerve like it did and like it did and like it did and how it's continued to strike a nerve um how it's continued to strike a nerve um how it's continued to strike a nerve um so we're really excited about that we so we're really excited about that we so we're really excited about that we had about 200 000 in the first couple had about 200 000 in the first couple had about 200 000 in the first couple weeks a lot of this was driven by the weeks a lot of this was driven by the weeks a lot of this was driven by the apple news and the publicity we got apple news and the publicity we got apple news and the publicity we got there there there but a lot of it was driven by pure but a lot of it was driven by pure but a lot of it was driven by pure excitement over the product as well like excitement over the product as well like excitement over the product as well like people people people were so hungry finally to to do were so hungry finally to to do were so hungry finally to to do something new with email and see email something new with email and see email something new with email and see email in a new light in a new light in a new light and like when they when they watch my and like when they when they watch my and like when they when they watch my demo i'd give this 37 minute demo which demo i'd give this 37 minute demo which demo i'd give this 37 minute demo which you can find on you can find on you can find on on youtube or if you google like jason on youtube or if you google like jason on youtube or if you google like jason freed hey demo freed hey demo freed hey demo or hey walk through you'll find it when or hey walk through you'll find it when or hey walk through you'll find it when people watch that i think it got a lot people watch that i think it got a lot people watch that i think it got a lot of people really excited of people really excited of people really excited about the product because i shared the about the product because i shared the about the product because i shared the philosophy behind the features and then philosophy behind the features and then philosophy behind the features and then walk people through the features at the walk people through the features at the walk people through the features at the same time same time same time and i think a lot of product people and i think a lot of product people and i think a lot of product people really appreciated that type of work really appreciated that type of work really appreciated that type of work walkthrough um and that got people fired walkthrough um and that got people fired walkthrough um and that got people fired up and people up and people up and people signed up about it and told about it and signed up about it and told about it and signed up about it and told about it and told everyone and we had an invite told everyone and we had an invite told everyone and we had an invite process the whole thing so process the whole thing so process the whole thing so there's a lot of that it's of course there's a lot of that it's of course there's a lot of that it's of course tapered off as as you'd expect i mean tapered off as as you'd expect i mean tapered off as as you'd expect i mean it's like boom it's like boom it's like boom launch tapered off um but you know we launch tapered off um but you know we launch tapered off um but you know we have tens of thousands of paying have tens of thousands of paying have tens of thousands of paying customers customers customers um already um conversion rate's been um already um conversion rate's been um already um conversion rate's been pretty wonderful we're pretty happy with pretty wonderful we're pretty happy with pretty wonderful we're pretty happy with that that that um it's been more than basic higher than

um it's been more than basic higher than um it's been more than basic higher than base camp which has been great base camp which has been great base camp which has been great um and there's some things that a lot of um and there's some things that a lot of um and there's some things that a lot of people really really want like for people really really want like for people really really want like for example custom domains which has been something that a lot of people been something that a lot of people been asking for which we don't offer yet asking for which we don't offer yet asking for which we don't offer yet everyone gets an at hay.com email everyone gets an at hay.com email everyone gets an at hay.com email address address address once we launch custom domains later this once we launch custom domains later this once we launch custom domains later this year i think a lot more people are going year i think a lot more people are going year i think a lot more people are going to jump back in and check it out again to jump back in and check it out again to jump back in and check it out again for a second time so for a second time so for a second time so we're very comfortable with how things we're very comfortable with how things we're very comfortable with how things are going and it feels really great are going and it feels really great are going and it feels really great right awesome congratulations on that right awesome congratulations on that right awesome congratulations on that um thank you so deep asks he says i love um thank you so deep asks he says i love um thank you so deep asks he says i love your contrarian way of thinking your contrarian way of thinking your contrarian way of thinking how do you suggest a new founder who how do you suggest a new founder who how do you suggest a new founder who wants to build a wants to build a wants to build a company with solid values and a solid company with solid values and a solid company with solid values and a solid culture that sticks culture that sticks culture that sticks i think he's asking just that like base i think he's asking just that like base i think he's asking just that like base camp has such strong culture and values camp has such strong culture and values camp has such strong culture and values and you've obviously been deliberate and you've obviously been deliberate and you've obviously been deliberate about that like about that like about that like how can how can another founder do that how can how can another founder do that how can how can another founder do that in their company first off um it's a mindset right so you first off um it's a mindset right so you have to believe that have to believe that have to believe that that that's what you want so don't that that's what you want so don't that that's what you want so don't follow us follow us follow us you can't follow us or follow anyone you can't follow us or follow anyone you can't follow us or follow anyone because that's not you're not being true because that's not you're not being true because that's not you're not being true to yourself to yourself to yourself if we if you believe what we believe if we if you believe what we believe if we if you believe what we believe then you're being true to yourself but then you're being true to yourself but then you're being true to yourself but don't don't look to us don't don't look to us don't don't look to us i want to be like them figure out what i want to be like them figure out what i want to be like them figure out what matters to you matters to you matters to you um and it's all about actions so for um and it's all about actions so for um and it's all about actions so for example like example like example like it's not about what you write down it's it's not about what you write down it's it's not about what you write down it's not about you know not about you know not about you know your handbook it's really about the way your handbook it's really about the way your handbook it's really about the way i like to think about culture is it's a i like to think about culture is it's a i like to think about culture is it's a 50-day 50-day 50-day moving average what have you been doing moving average what have you been doing moving average what have you been doing as a company over the last 50 days how as a company over the last 50 days how as a company over the last 50 days how do you treat people do you treat people do you treat people what do you do when people are stressed what do you do when people are stressed what do you do when people are stressed out how do you help people what kind of

out how do you help people what kind of out how do you help people what kind of criticism or critique do you give what criticism or critique do you give what criticism or critique do you give what kind of feedback do you give how do you kind of feedback do you give how do you kind of feedback do you give how do you share how do you share how do you share how do you help people who are stuck like those the help people who are stuck like those the help people who are stuck like those the things things things that make the culture and those things that make the culture and those things that make the culture and those things can change which is good and bad but can change which is good and bad but can change which is good and bad but what what what how the last 50 days been that's kind of how the last 50 days been that's kind of how the last 50 days been that's kind of how i look at it because there's always how i look at it because there's always how i look at it because there's always these spikes these spikes these spikes or these moments for example we launched or these moments for example we launched or these moments for example we launched hey two weeks of incredible stress hey two weeks of incredible stress hey two weeks of incredible stress terrible stress i hated it um it was terrible stress i hated it um it was terrible stress i hated it um it was wonderful but i hated it wonderful but i hated it wonderful but i hated it but it's unsustainable and so we're past but it's unsustainable and so we're past but it's unsustainable and so we're past that now that now that now so now we're settling back into how we so now we're settling back into how we so now we're settling back into how we want to be um because we don't want to want to be um because we don't want to want to be um because we don't want to be be be working late at night working on the working late at night working on the working late at night working on the weekends and being stressed out so i weekends and being stressed out so i weekends and being stressed out so i think it's a matter of how think it's a matter of how think it's a matter of how you act it's a matter of the last 50 you act it's a matter of the last 50 you act it's a matter of the last 50 days or so of how you act days or so of how you act days or so of how you act and understanding what's important to and understanding what's important to and understanding what's important to you now real quick about this you now real quick about this you now real quick about this um a lot of people like look at our our um a lot of people like look at our our um a lot of people like look at our our benefits and they look at our handbook benefits and they look at our handbook benefits and they look at our handbook and they read that and go i want to be and they read that and go i want to be and they read that and go i want to be like that like that like that it took us 20 years to get to that i it took us 20 years to get to that i it took us 20 years to get to that i mean we didn't offer mean we didn't offer mean we didn't offer most of these i mean we've been layering most of these i mean we've been layering most of these i mean we've been layering in things that we've been learning we've in things that we've been learning we've in things that we've been learning we've been layering in benefits we've been been layering in benefits we've been been layering in benefits we've been layering in layering in layering in the ability to give people more vacation the ability to give people more vacation the ability to give people more vacation time or to give people more time or to give people more time or to give people more sabbatical time like we couldn't afford sabbatical time like we couldn't afford sabbatical time like we couldn't afford to do some of these things many many to do some of these things many many to do some of these things many many many years ago and i many years ago and i many years ago and i for people were just starting out a lot for people were just starting out a lot for people were just starting out a lot of people in your audience of people in your audience of people in your audience this is probably the beginning is this is probably the beginning is this is probably the beginning is probably not the right time to be probably not the right time to be probably not the right time to be extremely generous on time off and you extremely generous on time off and you extremely generous on time off and you know know know like wait till you have some some some like wait till you have some some some like wait till you have some some some cushion cushion cushion some room in the bank and you can layer some room in the bank and you can layer some room in the bank and you can layer things in as you go so figure out what things in as you go so figure out what things in as you go so figure out what the most important things are and in my the most important things are and in my the most important things are and in my opinion opinion opinion the most important thing to begin with the most important thing to begin with the most important thing to begin with is free which is is free which is is free which is make sure you give people more time to make sure you give people more time to make sure you give people more time to themselves during the day

themselves during the day themselves during the day longer stretches of uninterrupted time longer stretches of uninterrupted time longer stretches of uninterrupted time to get their work done that is the best to get their work done that is the best to get their work done that is the best benefit benefit benefit any company can give any employee um any company can give any employee um any company can give any employee um and and let them go home at the end of and and let them go home at the end of and and let them go home at the end of the day fulfilled the day fulfilled the day fulfilled satisfied get a good night's sleep come satisfied get a good night's sleep come satisfied get a good night's sleep come back refresh the next morning back refresh the next morning back refresh the next morning that's a wonderful benefit and that that's a wonderful benefit and that that's a wonderful benefit and that doesn't cost you anything doesn't cost you anything doesn't cost you anything bravo sir all right so a question from bravo sir all right so a question from bravo sir all right so a question from justin jackson justin jackson justin jackson whom you know he says as hate takes over whom you know he says as hate takes over whom you know he says as hate takes over the world the world the world um oh no i'm sorry i was reading wrong um oh no i'm sorry i was reading wrong um oh no i'm sorry i was reading wrong questions you joked questions you joked questions you joked saying building hay was the dumbest saying building hay was the dumbest saying building hay was the dumbest thing we've done on a serious note do thing we've done on a serious note do thing we've done on a serious note do you regret it at all you regret it at all you regret it at all all the drama with apple the scale of all the drama with apple the scale of all the drama with apple the scale of the app etc the app etc the app etc i don't regret any of it um i'm thrilled i don't regret any of it um i'm thrilled i don't regret any of it um i'm thrilled that we built hay hay's going to make that we built hay hay's going to make that we built hay hay's going to make base camp better hey it's going to make base camp better hey it's going to make base camp better hey it's going to make hay better base camp's going to make hay hay better base camp's going to make hay hay better base camp's going to make hay better better better i like this thing where we can go back i like this thing where we can go back i like this thing where we can go back and forth now one of the things we've and forth now one of the things we've and forth now one of the things we've learned about launching something new learned about launching something new learned about launching something new is that you launch something new and is that you launch something new and is that you launch something new and that's the only time you can really that's the only time you can really that's the only time you can really explore explore explore really new ideas and those new ideas you really new ideas and those new ideas you really new ideas and those new ideas you know of course know of course know of course affect the new product you're building affect the new product you're building affect the new product you're building but they also affect the other things but they also affect the other things but they also affect the other things that you have so we're that you have so we're that you have so we're we've already begun work on base camp we've already begun work on base camp we've already begun work on base camp four which is going to be out next year four which is going to be out next year four which is going to be out next year and a lot of those ideas and a lot of those ideas and a lot of those ideas came from the things we developed when came from the things we developed when came from the things we developed when we built hay so hey is going to benefit we built hay so hey is going to benefit we built hay so hey is going to benefit everything everything everything um i don't regret the the apple uh fight um i don't regret the the apple uh fight um i don't regret the the apple uh fight at all i i think it was absolutely the at all i i think it was absolutely the at all i i think it was absolutely the right thing to do and working we're right thing to do and working we're right thing to do and working we're continuing to do so continuing to do so continuing to do so um we're supporting a whole wide variety um we're supporting a whole wide variety um we're supporting a whole wide variety of um of um of um of efforts and initiatives to to to you of efforts and initiatives to to to you of efforts and initiatives to to to you know bring this to know bring this to know bring this to to the government's you know awareness

to the government's you know awareness to the government's you know awareness and you know both in in the in the us and you know both in in the in the us and you know both in in the in the us and the eu and the eu and the eu um standing with other companies that um standing with other companies that um standing with other companies that are fighting and other developers that are fighting and other developers that are fighting and other developers that are fighting because this is not are fighting because this is not are fighting because this is not something you just do and walk away from something you just do and walk away from something you just do and walk away from like like like apple's going to be relentless about apple's going to be relentless about apple's going to be relentless about this and you've got to continue to stand this and you've got to continue to stand this and you've got to continue to stand up for what you believe to be right up for what you believe to be right up for what you believe to be right so no i don't regret it that said it was so no i don't regret it that said it was so no i don't regret it that said it was a horrible a horrible a horrible it was the most stressful time we've it was the most stressful time we've it was the most stressful time we've ever had in 20 years ever had in 20 years ever had in 20 years those two weeks were terrible um those two weeks were terrible um those two weeks were terrible um again like exciting and hugely rewarding again like exciting and hugely rewarding again like exciting and hugely rewarding but but but terrible mentally physically terrible mentally physically terrible mentally physically we aged we aged we didn't feel good we aged we aged we didn't feel good we aged we aged we didn't feel good people were people were people were sick it wasn't it wasn't a good time um sick it wasn't it wasn't a good time um sick it wasn't it wasn't a good time um so so so um what i would regret is if we stayed um what i would regret is if we stayed um what i would regret is if we stayed at that at that at that pace past the first couple weeks of pace past the first couple weeks of pace past the first couple weeks of launch launch launch that would have been that would not be that would have been that would not be that would have been that would not be worth that would not have been worth it worth that would not have been worth it worth that would not have been worth it but the fact that we've been able to to but the fact that we've been able to to but the fact that we've been able to to kind of settle back into our normal kind of settle back into our normal kind of settle back into our normal cadence cadence cadence we hired like five customer service we hired like five customer service we hired like five customer service people um really quickly people um really quickly people um really quickly that really helped a lot to bring the we that really helped a lot to bring the we that really helped a lot to bring the we were getting about 2 000 emails a day were getting about 2 000 emails a day were getting about 2 000 emails a day um when we launched hey so like it we um when we launched hey so like it we um when we launched hey so like it we just weren't ready for any of those just weren't ready for any of those just weren't ready for any of those things so things so things so that was a mess but we we remedied that that was a mess but we we remedied that that was a mess but we we remedied that and now we're comfortable again but if and now we're comfortable again but if and now we're comfortable again but if we were not comfortable and had to live we were not comfortable and had to live we were not comfortable and had to live at that pace i would have regretted it at that pace i would have regretted it at that pace i would have regretted it yes yes yes yep all right this is an interesting yep all right this is an interesting yep all right this is an interesting question i actually get this one now and question i actually get this one now and question i actually get this one now and again and i sometimes struggle to answer again and i sometimes struggle to answer again and i sometimes struggle to answer it so it so it so i'm uh i'm curious how you take it so i'm uh i'm curious how you take it so i'm uh i'm curious how you take it so the question is from tom biscuit and he the question is from tom biscuit and he the question is from tom biscuit and he says says says if you didn't have your brand and your if you didn't have your brand and your if you didn't have your brand and your resources how would you start a company resources how would you start a company resources how would you start a company today today today would addressing something as big as

would addressing something as big as would addressing something as big as email be possible without that kind of email be possible without that kind of email be possible without that kind of leverage um it's a great question um it's a great question i would launch the company the same way i would launch the company the same way i would launch the company the same way we launched base camp when we had no we launched base camp when we had no we launched base camp when we had no branding and no awareness which is branding and no awareness which is branding and no awareness which is slowly slowly slowly carefully with no expectations carefully with no expectations carefully with no expectations um we were a web design firm when we um we were a web design firm when we um we were a web design firm when we when we started we launched this base when we started we launched this base when we started we launched this base camp thing we built it for ourselves we camp thing we built it for ourselves we camp thing we built it for ourselves we did it on the side we put it out there did it on the side we put it out there did it on the side we put it out there and we waited a while to see if it was and we waited a while to see if it was and we waited a while to see if it was going to work it turns out it worked going to work it turns out it worked going to work it turns out it worked really well and then we were able to really well and then we were able to really well and then we were able to stop doing the other thing that we were stop doing the other thing that we were stop doing the other thing that we were doing doing doing um so i so so they're like i would do um so i so so they're like i would do um so i so so they're like i would do the same thing i would always try to the same thing i would always try to the same thing i would always try to have have have i wouldn't i don't like putting myself i wouldn't i don't like putting myself i wouldn't i don't like putting myself at risk i like taking a risk but i don't at risk i like taking a risk but i don't at risk i like taking a risk but i don't like putting myself at risk like putting myself at risk like putting myself at risk so um in the case of when we launched so um in the case of when we launched so um in the case of when we launched base camp no one really knew who we were base camp no one really knew who we were base camp no one really knew who we were we had a little bit of a following but we had a little bit of a following but we had a little bit of a following but like like like you know a thousand people reading our you know a thousand people reading our you know a thousand people reading our blog it was not very big compared to blog it was not very big compared to blog it was not very big compared to today a lot of people have a lot today a lot of people have a lot today a lot of people have a lot larger followings today when they larger followings today when they larger followings today when they launched than we did when we launched um launched than we did when we launched um launched than we did when we launched um it's much harder to reach people back it's much harder to reach people back it's much harder to reach people back than everything but we had we had a than everything but we had we had a than everything but we had we had a functional business functional business functional business of some sort that was going that could of some sort that was going that could of some sort that was going that could fund our endeavors into something else fund our endeavors into something else fund our endeavors into something else and only when that something else did and only when that something else did and only when that something else did better than the other thing that we better than the other thing that we better than the other thing that we stopped doing the other thing and stopped doing the other thing and stopped doing the other thing and started focusing a hundred percent on started focusing a hundred percent on started focusing a hundred percent on base camp base camp base camp so i would do it the same way and keep so i would do it the same way and keep so i would do it the same way and keep your cost again your cost again your cost again cost low small team no rent cost low small team no rent cost low small team no rent one or two or three people to start one or two or three people to start one or two or three people to start struggle through that struggle through that struggle through that um before you you make it hard on um before you you make it hard on um before you you make it hard on yourself by it yourself by it yourself by it seems like you'd make it easier on seems like you'd make it easier on seems like you'd make it easier on yourself by raising money or hiring more yourself by raising money or hiring more yourself by raising money or hiring more people but you're actually in some ways people but you're actually in some ways people but you're actually in some ways making a lot harder on yourself so i'd

making a lot harder on yourself so i'd making a lot harder on yourself so i'd start as start as start as small as you can and and um and small as you can and and um and small as you can and and um and and keep that you know maybe a little and keep that you know maybe a little and keep that you know maybe a little bit of money here and there right but bit of money here and there right but bit of money here and there right but not a big amount of money which forces not a big amount of money which forces not a big amount of money which forces all sorts of unreasonable expectations all sorts of unreasonable expectations all sorts of unreasonable expectations on you on you on you as far as tackling email um no we as far as tackling email um no we as far as tackling email um no we couldn't we could not have couldn't we could not have couldn't we could not have other people might be able to we could other people might be able to we could other people might be able to we could not have tackled email in the way that not have tackled email in the way that not have tackled email in the way that we chose to do it we chose to do it we chose to do it um had we not had um um had we not had um um had we not had um probably a big brand behind us to launch probably a big brand behind us to launch probably a big brand behind us to launch um it was it took us two years to build um it was it took us two years to build um it was it took us two years to build hay and the hay and the hay and the expertise that we needed we didn't we expertise that we needed we didn't we expertise that we needed we didn't we would not have had had we just started would not have had had we just started would not have had had we just started today today today it took us 20 years to understand how to it took us 20 years to understand how to it took us 20 years to understand how to do this how to deal with do this how to deal with do this how to deal with the loads we were gonna we were gonna the loads we were gonna we were gonna the loads we were gonna we were gonna have how to deal with the technology have how to deal with the technology have how to deal with the technology that we needed to build that we needed to build that we needed to build um all the infrastructure email is um all the infrastructure email is um all the infrastructure email is incredibly complicated it would not be incredibly complicated it would not be incredibly complicated it would not be the first thing i would ever choose to the first thing i would ever choose to the first thing i would ever choose to pick off pick off pick off so we could not have done it but that so we could not have done it but that so we could not have done it but that wasn't about the brand necessarily wasn't about the brand necessarily wasn't about the brand necessarily although although although it helped to launch but it was more it helped to launch but it was more it helped to launch but it was more about the understanding and the learning about the understanding and the learning about the understanding and the learning and the just the skills and experience and the just the skills and experience and the just the skills and experience that we needed to build over the last 20 that we needed to build over the last 20 that we needed to build over the last 20 years to be able to feel confident years to be able to feel confident years to be able to feel confident enough to even take this challenge on enough to even take this challenge on enough to even take this challenge on yep excellent so i think we have time yep excellent so i think we have time yep excellent so i think we have time for one or maybe two more questions for one or maybe two more questions for one or maybe two more questions uh and we have several pouring in so uh and we have several pouring in so uh and we have several pouring in so some really good i'm picking the best some really good i'm picking the best some really good i'm picking the best off the top off the top off the top this is a really interesting one and this is a really interesting one and this is a really interesting one and it's actually one that i've thought it's actually one that i've thought it's actually one that i've thought about and i was going to ask you on my about and i was going to ask you on my about and i was going to ask you on my own so so i like it it's from own so so i like it it's from own so so i like it it's from tim van dyk castile and he says tim van dyk castile and he says tim van dyk castile and he says you meaning base camp decided for a you meaning base camp decided for a you meaning base camp decided for a while to only have one product while to only have one product while to only have one product because you you know used to have because you you know used to have because you you know used to have several products as you said uh several products as you said uh several products as you said uh yeah i won't name them but whatever it

yeah i won't name them but whatever it yeah i won't name them but whatever it was campfire and we all had our list and was campfire and we all had our list and was campfire and we all had our list and all this stuff all this stuff all this stuff you actually set it for a while to only you actually set it for a while to only you actually set it for a while to only have one product stopping actively have one product stopping actively have one product stopping actively developing the other products and developing the other products and developing the other products and selling them off selling them off selling them off what made you to decide that you still what made you to decide that you still what made you to decide that you still wanted or you want to go back to being a wanted or you want to go back to being a wanted or you want to go back to being a multi-product company multi-product company multi-product company so this is sort of an interesting one so this is sort of an interesting one so this is sort of an interesting one and i'll try to make it fairly brief and i'll try to make it fairly brief and i'll try to make it fairly brief because i know we don't have a lot of because i know we don't have a lot of because i know we don't have a lot of time time time we didn't set out to build another we didn't set out to build another we didn't set out to build another product actually when we built hay we product actually when we built hay we product actually when we built hay we set out to build a new version of set out to build a new version of set out to build a new version of highrise highrise highrise so we set out to build high rise two so we set out to build high rise two so we set out to build high rise two like we built base camp like we built base camp like we built base camp two and now we're in base camp three and two and now we're in base camp three and two and now we're in base camp three and we're building base game four but we're we're building base game four but we're we're building base game four but we're going to go back going to go back going to go back and build high rise two as we were and build high rise two as we were and build high rise two as we were building higher rise too we recognized building higher rise too we recognized building higher rise too we recognized that that that there was something else going on here there was something else going on here there was something else going on here that we were building that we wanted that we were building that we wanted that we were building that we wanted this this this thing that we were making for all of our thing that we were making for all of our thing that we were making for all of our communication not just business communication not just business communication not just business communication but personal family all communication but personal family all communication but personal family all these things these things these things and so eventually it split it off into and so eventually it split it off into and so eventually it split it off into its own thing but i think its own thing but i think its own thing but i think we've what we learned about what's good we've what we learned about what's good we've what we learned about what's good about having two things versus one thing about having two things versus one thing about having two things versus one thing is again that you get to start from is again that you get to start from is again that you get to start from scratch again scratch again scratch again more frequently um so we're building you more frequently um so we're building you more frequently um so we're building you know we just built hey now we're doing know we just built hey now we're doing know we just built hey now we're doing hey for work next year we're gonna do hey for work next year we're gonna do hey for work next year we're gonna do base camp four we're going to learn some base camp four we're going to learn some base camp four we're going to learn some stuff we're going to pull some stuff stuff we're going to pull some stuff stuff we're going to pull some stuff from hay into base camp for when we from hay into base camp for when we from hay into base camp for when we build base camp we'll learn some new build base camp we'll learn some new build base camp we'll learn some new things that we'll bring into hay things that we'll bring into hay things that we'll bring into hay so i think this idea what we're calling so i think this idea what we're calling so i think this idea what we're calling it is like tick-tock development back it is like tick-tock development back it is like tick-tock development back and forth back and forth between two and forth back and forth between two and forth back and forth between two products is actually a really products is actually a really products is actually a really fresh and healthy thing to do i think fresh and healthy thing to do i think fresh and healthy thing to do i think though though though it wouldn't work for us if we had three it wouldn't work for us if we had three it wouldn't work for us if we had three or four or five or four or five or four or five so i think two is so i think two is so i think two is what we feel right now is probably going what we feel right now is probably going what we feel right now is probably going to be our sweet spot to be our sweet spot to be our sweet spot it's going to be different for every it's going to be different for every it's going to be different for every company if you have hundreds of

company if you have hundreds of company if you have hundreds of employees you can do more things we have employees you can do more things we have employees you can do more things we have 56 57 58 employees 56 57 58 employees 56 57 58 employees in our size at our scale we feel like in our size at our scale we feel like in our size at our scale we feel like two is right two is right two is right and here's one other reason why we think and here's one other reason why we think and here's one other reason why we think two is right two is right two is right basecamp's product cycle so we do basecamp's product cycle so we do basecamp's product cycle so we do basically do a new version of base camp basically do a new version of base camp basically do a new version of base camp every four to five years every four to five years every four to five years whole new version from scratch whole new version from scratch whole new version from scratch essentially and essentially and essentially and the when we launch that new version the when we launch that new version the when we launch that new version we're all in on it we're all in on it we're all in on it but then over the next number of years but then over the next number of years but then over the next number of years we're basically just making marginal we're basically just making marginal we're basically just making marginal improvements around the edges that's improvements around the edges that's improvements around the edges that's like technically what happens to mature like technically what happens to mature like technically what happens to mature products you're not products you're not products you're not like reinventing the product every year like reinventing the product every year like reinventing the product every year like you just kind of like you just kind of like you just kind of can't reinvent it every year so what can't reinvent it every year so what can't reinvent it every year so what ends up happening is you built up this ends up happening is you built up this ends up happening is you built up this all these skills and all these people all these skills and all these people all these skills and all these people who are really wonderful at making who are really wonderful at making who are really wonderful at making products products products and we're putting all those skills and and we're putting all those skills and and we're putting all those skills and just making marginal improvements around just making marginal improvements around just making marginal improvements around the edges the edges the edges and it's not a really efficient way to and it's not a really efficient way to and it's not a really efficient way to run a company actually with all that run a company actually with all that run a company actually with all that talent just tweaking which is what ends talent just tweaking which is what ends talent just tweaking which is what ends up happening with mature products up happening with mature products up happening with mature products so by jumping into a new thing we get to so by jumping into a new thing we get to so by jumping into a new thing we get to use all that energy and all that talent use all that energy and all that talent use all that energy and all that talent on something brand new from scratch on something brand new from scratch on something brand new from scratch work on that for a while and then jump work on that for a while and then jump work on that for a while and then jump back on the other thing and make a whole back on the other thing and make a whole back on the other thing and make a whole new version of that so we're going to be new version of that so we're going to be new version of that so we're going to be making new versions of things more making new versions of things more making new versions of things more frequently frequently frequently in a staggered way i think which is in a staggered way i think which is in a staggered way i think which is going to just be a healthier perspective going to just be a healthier perspective going to just be a healthier perspective for us so that's that's for us so that's that's for us so that's that's i mean in a nutshell that's why we i mean in a nutshell that's why we i mean in a nutshell that's why we decided to do it it kind of decided to do it it kind of decided to do it it kind of was an accident then we kind of leaned was an accident then we kind of leaned was an accident then we kind of leaned into it and now we think it's into it and now we think it's into it and now we think it's kind of probably going to be the right kind of probably going to be the right kind of probably going to be the right thing to do awesome i'm glad to hear it thing to do awesome i'm glad to hear it thing to do awesome i'm glad to hear it yes sir if you're over time but do you yes sir if you're over time but do you yes sir if you're over time but do you have quest time for one more question of have quest time for one more question of have quest time for one more question of course yeah cause i've gone long on course yeah cause i've gone long on course yeah cause i've gone long on these answers these answers these answers no no this is great it's perfect um

no no this is great it's perfect um no no this is great it's perfect um there's a i like this question uh so there's a i like this question uh so there's a i like this question uh so it's from johnny tong and he says it's from johnny tong and he says it's from johnny tong and he says how does base camp manage employee how does base camp manage employee how does base camp manage employee career progression when it favors a low career progression when it favors a low career progression when it favors a low head count head count head count flat structure because you know a lot of flat structure because you know a lot of flat structure because you know a lot of people want to progress and move up the people want to progress and move up the people want to progress and move up the chain and in a larger org right that's chain and in a larger org right that's chain and in a larger org right that's easier to do so i'd love to hear your easier to do so i'd love to hear your easier to do so i'd love to hear your take on that take on that take on that yeah it's a really wonderful question um yeah it's a really wonderful question um yeah it's a really wonderful question um and we've struggled with this over the and we've struggled with this over the and we've struggled with this over the years years years what we basically do is we don't really what we basically do is we don't really what we basically do is we don't really have a managerial track have a managerial track have a managerial track so people in most companies people move so people in most companies people move so people in most companies people move up right up right up right um at base camp you you move sideways um at base camp you you move sideways um at base camp you you move sideways by expanding your your ability so for by expanding your your ability so for by expanding your your ability so for example a lot of our designers example a lot of our designers example a lot of our designers get better by learning programming as get better by learning programming as get better by learning programming as well well well so they're not just designers but they so they're not just designers but they so they're not just designers but they they do all their css themselves they do they do all their css themselves they do they do all their css themselves they do all the visual design they do a lot of all the visual design they do a lot of all the visual design they do a lot of rails now they do a lot of javascript rails now they do a lot of javascript rails now they do a lot of javascript now now now so so they sort of expand outward and so so they sort of expand outward and so so they sort of expand outward and that's that's that's typically how most people progress and typically how most people progress and typically how most people progress and then they move up then they move up then they move up in the organization on our pay scale in the organization on our pay scale in the organization on our pay scale because they have more skills and they because they have more skills and they because they have more skills and they take more responsibility take more responsibility take more responsibility we do have team leads so there are some we do have team leads so there are some we do have team leads so there are some team leads but they're pretty well team leads but they're pretty well team leads but they're pretty well established people who've been here for established people who've been here for established people who've been here for a long time so it's not a very it's not a long time so it's not a very it's not a long time so it's not a very it's not like a like a like a high churn position so those positions high churn position so those positions high churn position so those positions pretty much sit there pretty much sit there pretty much sit there um but but people sort of expand their um but but people sort of expand their um but but people sort of expand their skill set and then move up in our pay skill set and then move up in our pay skill set and then move up in our pay tier tier tier so that's something that's kind of so that's something that's kind of so that's something that's kind of unusual actually at companies because unusual actually at companies because unusual actually at companies because most people actually most people actually most people actually they get narrower narrower in a sense they get narrower narrower in a sense they get narrower narrower in a sense they move into a managerial track where they move into a managerial track where they move into a managerial track where they actually they actually they actually lose a lot of the skills that they had lose a lot of the skills that they had lose a lot of the skills that they had and they atrophy like me i've i've and they atrophy like me i've i've and they atrophy like me i've i've atrophied like i i'm atrophied like i i'm atrophied like i i'm i'm not as good anymore getting in the

i'm not as good anymore getting in the i'm not as good anymore getting in the html and css like i used to like i i'm html and css like i used to like i i'm html and css like i used to like i i'm not just not just not just not that good at that anymore because not that good at that anymore because not that good at that anymore because i've been focusing on other things and i've been focusing on other things and i've been focusing on other things and this happens to a lot of people as they this happens to a lot of people as they this happens to a lot of people as they move up through management but at base move up through management but at base move up through management but at base camp we want people to get better at camp we want people to get better at camp we want people to get better at their craft their craft their craft and so you know if you could think of a and so you know if you could think of a and so you know if you could think of a someone who's good with woodworking someone who's good with woodworking someone who's good with woodworking loves woodworking they might also expand loves woodworking they might also expand loves woodworking they might also expand into other materials they might explore into other materials they might explore into other materials they might explore you know uh metal they might explore you know uh metal they might explore you know uh metal they might explore ceramics they might explore other things ceramics they might explore other things ceramics they might explore other things they're still using the same skills but they're still using the same skills but they're still using the same skills but in in in different mediums and i think that's the different mediums and i think that's the different mediums and i think that's the idea here at base camp is that you might idea here at base camp is that you might idea here at base camp is that you might be a great designer but you might want be a great designer but you might want be a great designer but you might want to pick up some programming or you might to pick up some programming or you might to pick up some programming or you might want to be a better writer want to be a better writer want to be a better writer and that's how people expand and that's and that's how people expand and that's and that's how people expand and that's how people get paid more and move up the how people get paid more and move up the how people get paid more and move up the scale scale scale at our company and then there are some at our company and then there are some at our company and then there are some people always some people people always some people people always some people who just simply do want to run teams or who just simply do want to run teams or who just simply do want to run teams or manage people manage people manage people and if there's not a position here it's and if there's not a position here it's and if there's not a position here it's totally fair for them to say totally fair for them to say totally fair for them to say you know base camp doesn't have what you know base camp doesn't have what you know base camp doesn't have what what what what i want what what what i want what what what i want and i'm going to move on to go find a and i'm going to move on to go find a and i'm going to move on to go find a place that does that and we would gladly place that does that and we would gladly place that does that and we would gladly help them we'd hate to lose them but we help them we'd hate to lose them but we help them we'd hate to lose them but we understand that like it's no understand that like it's no understand that like it's no it's not good for us to keep anyone who it's not good for us to keep anyone who it's not good for us to keep anyone who would want to do something else so we're would want to do something else so we're would want to do something else so we're gonna gonna gonna we're gonna we're gonna help them find we're gonna we're gonna help them find we're gonna we're gonna help them find something somewhere else that would something somewhere else that would something somewhere else that would satisfy that we've had a number of satisfy that we've had a number of satisfy that we've had a number of people who either left to manage bigger people who either left to manage bigger people who either left to manage bigger teams teams teams or left to start their own businesses um or left to start their own businesses um or left to start their own businesses um and uh that's great and uh that's great and uh that's great we're you know happy for them and want we're you know happy for them and want we're you know happy for them and want to support them as well to support them as well to support them as well sure and i bet they're set up well to do sure and i bet they're set up well to do sure and i bet they're set up well to do it because with base camp on your resume it because with base camp on your resume it because with base camp on your resume you can get hired by you can get hired by you can get hired by most of the people that i know so yeah most of the people that i know so yeah most of the people that i know so yeah it's helpful it's helpful it's helpful such a such a gentleman thank you for such a such a gentleman thank you for such a such a gentleman thank you for taking your time to

taking your time to taking your time to you know to give back to founders um you know to give back to founders um you know to give back to founders um i've been i mean this is the kind of i've been i mean this is the kind of i've been i mean this is the kind of stuff where if i say it one-on-one it stuff where if i say it one-on-one it stuff where if i say it one-on-one it sounds sounds sounds awkward but like i've been an admirer of awkward but like i've been an admirer of awkward but like i've been an admirer of yours for at least 14 years i've read yours for at least 14 years i've read yours for at least 14 years i've read all your books and all your books and all your books and and i just love i love having and i just love i love having and i just love i love having conversations with you because you're conversations with you because you're conversations with you because you're you're always just dropping knowledge you're always just dropping knowledge you're always just dropping knowledge and giving back and giving back and giving back founder so thanks so much for you know founder so thanks so much for you know founder so thanks so much for you know sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again sharing the stage with me again well thanks rob this is great and i'm well thanks rob this is great and i'm well thanks rob this is great and i'm happy to by the way answer additional happy to by the way answer additional happy to by the way answer additional questions if people have them questions if people have them questions if people have them you can email me at jason hey.com h-e-y you can email me at jason hey.com h-e-y you can email me at jason hey.com h-e-y or on twitter jasonfreedfried or on twitter jasonfreedfried or on twitter jasonfreedfried and i'll try to uh answer there as well and i'll try to uh answer there as well and i'll try to uh answer there as well thanks again jason catch you next thank thanks again jason catch you next thank thanks again jason catch you next thank you