MicroConf On Air Question and Answer Episode with Rob Walling

And we are live. Welcome to today's And we are live. Welcome to today's episode of MicroConf on Air. I'm your episode of MicroConf on Air. I'm your episode of MicroConf on Air. I'm your host, Rob Walling, live streaming direct host, Rob Walling, live streaming direct host, Rob Walling, live streaming direct from my bunker library here in from my bunker library here in from my bunker library here in Minneapolis, Minnesota. So every Minneapolis, Minnesota. So every Minneapolis, Minnesota. So every Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, and Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, and Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, and producers Xander and I stream for 30 producers Xander and I stream for 30 producers Xander and I stream for 30 minutes, and we cover topics related to minutes, and we cover topics related to minutes, and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS building and growing ambitious SAS building and growing ambitious SAS startups that bring us freedom and startups that bring us freedom and startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to value and purpose and allow us to value and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy relationships. We maintain healthy relationships. We maintain healthy relationships. We believe that showing up every day and believe that showing up every day and believe that showing up every day and shipping that next feature, that next shipping that next feature, that next shipping that next feature, that next piece of marketing copy, closing that piece of marketing copy, closing that piece of marketing copy, closing that next sale is the way to build a next sale is the way to build a next sale is the way to build a sustainable company. Thanks so much for sustainable company. Thanks so much for sustainable company. Thanks so much for uh for joining me today. Today is an all uh for joining me today. Today is an all uh for joining me today. Today is an all Ask Rob episode. We're going to be doing Ask Rob episode. We're going to be doing Ask Rob episode. We're going to be doing live Q&A. We have some good questions live Q&A. We have some good questions live Q&A. We have some good questions coming in on Twitter and in the MicroC coming in on Twitter and in the MicroC coming in on Twitter and in the MicroC on air channel in Micromp Connect. If on air channel in Micromp Connect. If on air channel in Micromp Connect. If you're not part of Microcom Connect you're not part of Microcom Connect you're not part of Microcom Connect already, you should head to already, you should head to already, you should head to microconnect.com. We have more than, I microconnect.com. We have more than, I microconnect.com. We have more than, I believe it's over 1,600 founders, believe it's over 1,600 founders, believe it's over 1,600 founders, bootstrappers, and mostly bootstrapped bootstrappers, and mostly bootstrapped bootstrappers, and mostly bootstrapped founders in there hanging out and having founders in there hanging out and having founders in there hanging out and having conversations like this every day. And conversations like this every day. And conversations like this every day. And what I love is when I get into connect what I love is when I get into connect what I love is when I get into connect and there's a solid thread where I see a and there's a solid thread where I see a and there's a solid thread where I see a question and I go to I I know the answer question and I go to I I know the answer question and I go to I I know the answer to this or I I have a thought on this to this or I I have a thought on this to this or I I have a thought on this and I go in and there's already five and I go in and there's already five and I go in and there's already five amazing answers from other experienced amazing answers from other experienced amazing answers from other experienced founders who have done exactly this and founders who have done exactly this and founders who have done exactly this and I don't even need to weigh in um because I don't even need to weigh in um because I don't even need to weigh in um because the answers are you know are good and the answers are you know are good and the answers are you know are good and they're all uh and they're all legit. So they're all uh and they're all legit. So they're all uh and they're all legit. So I am checking out some questions. So I am checking out some questions. So I am checking out some questions. So today, yeah, I normally intro my guest today, yeah, I normally intro my guest today, yeah, I normally intro my guest here, but you'll know me as the here, but you'll know me as the here, but you'll know me as the co-founder of Drip and Micromp and Tiny

co-founder of Drip and Micromp and Tiny co-founder of Drip and Micromp and Tiny Seed, Startup for the Rest of Us, host Seed, Startup for the Rest of Us, host Seed, Startup for the Rest of Us, host and uh author of Start Small, Stay and uh author of Start Small, Stay and uh author of Start Small, Stay Small. So, I'm going to be answering a Small. So, I'm going to be answering a Small. So, I'm going to be answering a bunch of questions today. Um, what are bunch of questions today. Um, what are bunch of questions today. Um, what are the Oh, what are those books behind me? the Oh, what are those books behind me? the Oh, what are those books behind me? Yes. So, it is definitely Yes. So, it is definitely Yes. So, it is definitely um a you know, a really nice bookcase um a you know, a really nice bookcase um a you know, a really nice bookcase here. I'll just show you. I'll pull up here. I'll just show you. I'll pull up here. I'll just show you. I'll pull up one book off the shelf just so you can one book off the shelf just so you can one book off the shelf just so you can see what see what see what So, here we are with, you know, this So, here we are with, you know, this So, here we are with, you know, this tome of no title. Um, that actually, uh, tome of no title. Um, that actually, uh, tome of no title. Um, that actually, uh, holds some some silver age comic books holds some some silver age comic books holds some some silver age comic books for those who, you know, are in the for those who, you know, are in the for those who, you know, are in the know. There's some Spider-Man number two know. There's some Spider-Man number two know. There's some Spider-Man number two there from there from there from 1963, I think. So, yes, all questions 1963, I think. So, yes, all questions 1963, I think. So, yes, all questions today can be startup related, uh, silver today can be startup related, uh, silver today can be startup related, uh, silver age comic book collecting related, and age comic book collecting related, and age comic book collecting related, and of course, Dungeons and Dragons related. of course, Dungeons and Dragons related. of course, Dungeons and Dragons related. We we really do uh in all seriousness We we really do uh in all seriousness We we really do uh in all seriousness have some really good questions coming have some really good questions coming have some really good questions coming in and um it's nice that that we have uh in and um it's nice that that we have uh in and um it's nice that that we have uh producers Xander says so smooth. It's producers Xander says so smooth. It's producers Xander says so smooth. It's nice that we have you know such a it's a nice that we have you know such a it's a nice that we have you know such a it's a really good audience. It's a it's a really good audience. It's a it's a really good audience. It's a it's a really great group of creators that are really great group of creators that are really great group of creators that are here in Micro Connect and participating here in Micro Connect and participating here in Micro Connect and participating on Twitter and just in this this on Twitter and just in this this on Twitter and just in this this microcomverse. Um and you know I did an microcomverse. Um and you know I did an microcomverse. Um and you know I did an interview last week if you haven't interview last week if you haven't interview last week if you haven't checked this out on Indie Hackers.

checked this out on Indie Hackers. checked this out on Indie Hackers. Courtland Allen and I had a conversation Courtland Allen and I had a conversation Courtland Allen and I had a conversation for it was about an hour and 10 minutes. for it was about an hour and 10 minutes. for it was about an hour and 10 minutes. Really solid stuff. It good questions Really solid stuff. It good questions Really solid stuff. It good questions from Courtland, good thoughts from him. from Courtland, good thoughts from him. from Courtland, good thoughts from him. And I was just weighing and we we were And I was just weighing and we we were And I was just weighing and we we were just talking about frameworks and and just talking about frameworks and and just talking about frameworks and and advantages um and opportunities for advantages um and opportunities for advantages um and opportunities for launching SAS in October of 2020. It was launching SAS in October of 2020. It was launching SAS in October of 2020. It was very specific to to now, not 5 years very specific to to now, not 5 years very specific to to now, not 5 years ago, not 10 years ago. And that's ago, not 10 years ago. And that's ago, not 10 years ago. And that's actually spurring on a few of the actually spurring on a few of the actually spurring on a few of the questions that we have today. So, I'm questions that we have today. So, I'm questions that we have today. So, I'm going to dive in there. But first, I've going to dive in there. But first, I've going to dive in there. But first, I've had a request already for uh tell a had a request already for uh tell a had a request already for uh tell a joke. So, in true micro comp dad joke um joke. So, in true micro comp dad joke um joke. So, in true micro comp dad joke um uh uh uh tradition, this Fibonacci joke I'm going tradition, this Fibonacci joke I'm going tradition, this Fibonacci joke I'm going to tell you, it's as bad as the last two to tell you, it's as bad as the last two to tell you, it's as bad as the last two you've heard you've heard you've heard combined. So, with no laugh track, it combined. So, with no laugh track, it combined. So, with no laugh track, it just kind of normally so at micro just kind of normally so at micro just kind of normally so at micro there's all these groans and that there's all these groans and that there's all these groans and that there's groans and laughs and some there's groans and laughs and some there's groans and laughs and some people you know kind of clap slow people you know kind of clap slow people you know kind of clap slow clapping golf clapping me, but without clapping golf clapping me, but without clapping golf clapping me, but without that it loses a little bit. So, my first that it loses a little bit. So, my first that it loses a little bit. So, my first question today is from noer brag. Thank question today is from noer brag. Thank question today is from noer brag. Thank you, producer Xander. Only a little it's you, producer Xander. Only a little it's you, producer Xander. Only a little it's about 20 seconds late. So, Noah Brag about 20 seconds late. So, Noah Brag about 20 seconds late. So, Noah Brag from MicroCom Connect asks, "If you were from MicroCom Connect asks, "If you were from MicroCom Connect asks, "If you were starting a business today, I'm going to starting a business today, I'm going to starting a business today, I'm going to assume it's a SAS company, and you were assume it's a SAS company, and you were assume it's a SAS company, and you were earlier on in your career, would you try earlier on in your career, would you try earlier on in your career, would you try multiple business ideas at once or go multiple business ideas at once or go multiple business ideas at once or go allin on one?" This is a good question.

allin on one?" This is a good question. allin on one?" This is a good question. So, personally, I would go allin is is a So, personally, I would go allin is is a So, personally, I would go allin is is a is a deceptive phrase because I wouldn't is a deceptive phrase because I wouldn't is a deceptive phrase because I wouldn't just dive in and say, "Oh, I have this just dive in and say, "Oh, I have this just dive in and say, "Oh, I have this idea. Oh, I've done some validation. idea. Oh, I've done some validation. idea. Oh, I've done some validation. Now, I'm going to spend the next six Now, I'm going to spend the next six Now, I'm going to spend the next six months going all in on this idea. That's months going all in on this idea. That's months going all in on this idea. That's not what I would do. But I would focus not what I would do. But I would focus not what I would do. But I would focus on launching and um validating one idea on launching and um validating one idea on launching and um validating one idea at a time. Personally, I have a huge at a time. Personally, I have a huge at a time. Personally, I have a huge belief in focus. And I'm not saying you belief in focus. And I'm not saying you belief in focus. And I'm not saying you can't own multiple products at a time can't own multiple products at a time can't own multiple products at a time because I was the king of of these micro because I was the king of of these micro because I was the king of of these micro portfolios back in the day where I had portfolios back in the day where I had portfolios back in the day where I had 10 different products generating revenue 10 different products generating revenue 10 different products generating revenue for me. But I didn't launch and grow 10 for me. But I didn't launch and grow 10 for me. But I didn't launch and grow 10 at once. I launched or acquired and grew at once. I launched or acquired and grew at once. I launched or acquired and grew one at a time and then I figured out a one at a time and then I figured out a one at a time and then I figured out a way to make it sustainable and more I'll way to make it sustainable and more I'll way to make it sustainable and more I'll say more autopilot. Autopilot's a a say more autopilot. Autopilot's a a say more autopilot. Autopilot's a a misnomer, but mostly on autopilot for misnomer, but mostly on autopilot for misnomer, but mostly on autopilot for now is how I will phrase it. It's on now is how I will phrase it. It's on now is how I will phrase it. It's on autopilot for the next 3 to 6 months autopilot for the next 3 to 6 months autopilot for the next 3 to 6 months until something happens that have to until something happens that have to until something happens that have to circle back. But focusing on one thing, circle back. But focusing on one thing, circle back. But focusing on one thing, you get into the headsp space of it. All you get into the headsp space of it. All you get into the headsp space of it. All the information and content that you're the information and content that you're the information and content that you're consuming, you can kind of adapt or consuming, you can kind of adapt or consuming, you can kind of adapt or think through how you can apply it to think through how you can apply it to think through how you can apply it to that one thing. And I would be doing a that one thing. And I would be doing a that one thing. And I would be doing a ton of validation at every step. And so ton of validation at every step. And so ton of validation at every step. And so when I first come up with an idea, I when I first come up with an idea, I when I first come up with an idea, I always think 90% this thing's going to always think 90% this thing's going to always think 90% this thing's going to work. And then with my 24 to 48 hour work. And then with my 24 to 48 hour work. And then with my 24 to 48 hour cooling off period before I register any cooling off period before I register any cooling off period before I register any domain, which is what I do these days, I domain, which is what I do these days, I domain, which is what I do these days, I wind up falling down to 10 or 20%, you wind up falling down to 10 or 20%, you wind up falling down to 10 or 20%, you know, certainty that this thing's going know, certainty that this thing's going know, certainty that this thing's going to work. Then typically I I say, okay, to work. Then typically I I say, okay, to work. Then typically I I say, okay, well, what's my next step to validate?

well, what's my next step to validate? well, what's my next step to validate? How can I get myself to 25 or 30%. Well, How can I get myself to 25 or 30%. Well, How can I get myself to 25 or 30%. Well, oftentimes it's sending a few emails to oftentimes it's sending a few emails to oftentimes it's sending a few emails to people I know. It's putting something on people I know. It's putting something on people I know. It's putting something on Twitter asking opinions. it's having u Twitter asking opinions. it's having u Twitter asking opinions. it's having u you know face tof face or in this case you know face tof face or in this case you know face tof face or in this case you know these days zoom conversations you know these days zoom conversations you know these days zoom conversations might be putting up a landing page might be putting up a landing page might be putting up a landing page driving traffic to it whether it's from driving traffic to it whether it's from driving traffic to it whether it's from my podcast whether it's from Twitter my podcast whether it's from Twitter my podcast whether it's from Twitter whether it's from running cold ads which whether it's from running cold ads which whether it's from running cold ads which I did back in the day when we were I did back in the day when we were I did back in the day when we were validating drip and I would just try to validating drip and I would just try to validating drip and I would just try to get that validation one step further one get that validation one step further one get that validation one step further one step further now that's if I'm going to step further now that's if I'm going to step further now that's if I'm going to build maybe a larger more novel product build maybe a larger more novel product build maybe a larger more novel product that doesn't exist in the space today that doesn't exist in the space today that doesn't exist in the space today and I'm trying to to validate the idea and I'm trying to to validate the idea and I'm trying to to validate the idea itself but what if I know that there's a itself but what if I know that there's a itself but what if I know that there's a gap in the WordPress plug-in market or gap in the WordPress plug-in market or gap in the WordPress plug-in market or that all the plugins that do polls on that all the plugins that do polls on that all the plugins that do polls on WordPress is just an example that they WordPress is just an example that they WordPress is just an example that they aren't very good or that I know that I aren't very good or that I know that I aren't very good or that I know that I can rank, you know, it's not that hard can rank, you know, it's not that hard can rank, you know, it's not that hard to rank high in the WordPress to rank high in the WordPress to rank high in the WordPress repository. There's just a little bit of repository. There's just a little bit of repository. There's just a little bit of WordPress SEO. That algorithm is not WordPress SEO. That algorithm is not WordPress SEO. That algorithm is not it's not as complex as Google. It's not it's not as complex as Google. It's not it's not as complex as Google. It's not actually that smart. So maybe I don't actually that smart. So maybe I don't actually that smart. So maybe I don't want to validate that everybody needs a want to validate that everybody needs a want to validate that everybody needs a polling plugin. Maybe I want to validate polling plugin. Maybe I want to validate polling plugin. Maybe I want to validate that I can just rank higher. So, I get that I can just rank higher. So, I get that I can just rank higher. So, I get something in there. Or I email the top something in there. Or I email the top something in there. Or I email the top 10 poll plugins, especially the ones 10 poll plugins, especially the ones 10 poll plugins, especially the ones that haven't have been updated in two or that haven't have been updated in two or that haven't have been updated in two or three years, and I say, "Can I adopt three years, and I say, "Can I adopt three years, and I say, "Can I adopt your plugin or can I buy your plugin?"

your plugin or can I buy your plugin?" your plugin or can I buy your plugin?" So, these are ways that I would be going So, these are ways that I would be going So, these are ways that I would be going about, you know, you don't always have about, you know, you don't always have about, you know, you don't always have to build the thing from scratch. Um, but to build the thing from scratch. Um, but to build the thing from scratch. Um, but I think the question of multiple or one, I think the question of multiple or one, I think the question of multiple or one, which should you focus on in my opinion, which should you focus on in my opinion, which should you focus on in my opinion, unless you're stairstepping, and even unless you're stairstepping, and even unless you're stairstepping, and even with stairstepping, I would focus on with stairstepping, I would focus on with stairstepping, I would focus on that. Yeah, I was going to do an info that. Yeah, I was going to do an info that. Yeah, I was going to do an info product at the bottom end or I would do, product at the bottom end or I would do, product at the bottom end or I would do, you know, that WordPress plugin or you know, that WordPress plugin or you know, that WordPress plugin or something uh as step one and then I something uh as step one and then I something uh as step one and then I would I would build on it from would I would build on it from would I would build on it from there. All right. How do you get your there. All right. How do you get your there. All right. How do you get your hair looking so good during a pandemic hair looking so good during a pandemic hair looking so good during a pandemic from Pat Foley? Well, thank you, sir. from Pat Foley? Well, thank you, sir. from Pat Foley? Well, thank you, sir. Um I did wear a mask and I get haircuts. Um I did wear a mask and I get haircuts. Um I did wear a mask and I get haircuts. That's the honest answer. So, I didn't That's the honest answer. So, I didn't That's the honest answer. So, I didn't have I had pandemic hair for the first have I had pandemic hair for the first have I had pandemic hair for the first four months because everything was shut four months because everything was shut four months because everything was shut down here. But we are still in um I down here. But we are still in um I down here. But we are still in um I don't even know what it's like stage one don't even know what it's like stage one don't even know what it's like stage one lockdown where you can go to places like lockdown where you can go to places like lockdown where you can go to places like I I went to the gym the other day and we I I went to the gym the other day and we I I went to the gym the other day and we wear a lot of face masks but you know wear a lot of face masks but you know wear a lot of face masks but you know knock on wood Minneapolis is not in um knock on wood Minneapolis is not in um knock on wood Minneapolis is not in um it's not doing as poorly as as many of it's not doing as poorly as as many of it's not doing as poorly as as many of the states around us and so I appreciate the states around us and so I appreciate the states around us and so I appreciate the joking question but that is the the the joking question but that is the the the joking question but that is the the honest answer. All right, question honest answer. All right, question honest answer. All right, question number two also from Noah Bragg and number two also from Noah Bragg and number two also from Noah Bragg and Microsoft connect. He's following up on Microsoft connect. He's following up on Microsoft connect. He's following up on on the above question. and he says, "If on the above question. and he says, "If on the above question. and he says, "If building your first tiny product like a building your first tiny product like a building your first tiny product like a WordPress plugin, hey, that was my WordPress plugin, hey, that was my WordPress plugin, hey, that was my example." And I I often say info product example." And I I often say info product example." And I I often say info product or WordPress plugin, there are Shopify or WordPress plugin, there are Shopify or WordPress plugin, there are Shopify add-ons, there are Photoshop add-ons, add-ons, there are Photoshop add-ons, add-ons, there are Photoshop add-ons, there are Google App Store, Google there are Google App Store, Google there are Google App Store, Google Chrome store things you can build, there Chrome store things you can build, there Chrome store things you can build, there are there's a there's a myriad of them are there's a there's a myriad of them are there's a there's a myriad of them and I there Magento add-ons that, you and I there Magento add-ons that, you and I there Magento add-ons that, you know, we can go on and on and on. Um, know, we can go on and on and on. Um, know, we can go on and on and on. Um, anytime there's an app store, anytime anytime there's an app store, anytime anytime there's an app store, anytime there's an ecosystem that has something

there's an ecosystem that has something there's an ecosystem that has something that you're not just battling to rank in that you're not just battling to rank in that you're not just battling to rank in Google for, these are the types of step Google for, these are the types of step Google for, these are the types of step one ideas I come up or, you know, I one ideas I come up or, you know, I one ideas I come up or, you know, I would encourage people to look at. Okay. would encourage people to look at. Okay. would encourage people to look at. Okay. So, if you're building a first tiny So, if you're building a first tiny So, if you're building a first tiny product like a WordPress plugin, what product like a WordPress plugin, what product like a WordPress plugin, what level of customer research should you level of customer research should you level of customer research should you do? Is it more you see a problem and do? Is it more you see a problem and do? Is it more you see a problem and ship something or should you take a more ship something or should you take a more ship something or should you take a more cautious approach and try to validate cautious approach and try to validate cautious approach and try to validate further before shipping? I appreciate further before shipping? I appreciate further before shipping? I appreciate someone handing over money is the only someone handing over money is the only someone handing over money is the only real valid val validation, but I'm real valid val validation, but I'm real valid val validation, but I'm trying to get an idea of how quickly you trying to get an idea of how quickly you trying to get an idea of how quickly you should move and whether it's a case of should move and whether it's a case of should move and whether it's a case of trying lots of small bets. I hope that trying lots of small bets. I hope that trying lots of small bets. I hope that makes sense. It does make sense. makes sense. It does make sense. makes sense. It does make sense. Um I would tend to act pretty quickly Um I would tend to act pretty quickly Um I would tend to act pretty quickly and and and do I I wouldn't tend to do a bunch of do I I wouldn't tend to do a bunch of do I I wouldn't tend to do a bunch of customer validation calls or a bunch of customer validation calls or a bunch of customer validation calls or a bunch of customer development calls. Um if I was customer development calls. Um if I was customer development calls. Um if I was going to do a small step one thing, I going to do a small step one thing, I going to do a small step one thing, I would validate almost in the start small would validate almost in the start small would validate almost in the start small stay small approach. So you go to starts stay small approach. So you go to starts stay small approach. So you go to starts small.com. It's my first book. And while small.com. It's my first book. And while small.com. It's my first book. And while the exact tools and and exact numbers the exact tools and and exact numbers the exact tools and and exact numbers that I use there may not be accurate that I use there may not be accurate that I use there may not be accurate today cuz it's 10 years old. The tactic today cuz it's 10 years old. The tactic today cuz it's 10 years old. The tactic there was you find a small niche or you there was you find a small niche or you there was you find a small niche or you find uh even not a small niche but that find uh even not a small niche but that find uh even not a small niche but that with an underserved corner that you can with an underserved corner that you can with an underserved corner that you can somehow measure the the interest and somehow measure the the interest and somehow measure the the interest and whether that's looking at a WordPress whether that's looking at a WordPress whether that's looking at a WordPress plugin in the repo and saying oh it has plugin in the repo and saying oh it has plugin in the repo and saying oh it has this many downloads so it's must be a this many downloads so it's must be a this many downloads so it's must be a popular search term or you go to the popular search term or you go to the popular search term or you go to the Google keyword tool or you go to hrefs Google keyword tool or you go to hrefs Google keyword tool or you go to hrefs or semrush or moz today and you say oh or semrush or moz today and you say oh or semrush or moz today and you say oh there are 5,000 searches a month for there are 5,000 searches a month for there are 5,000 searches a month for this thing and there are a couple tools this thing and there are a couple tools this thing and there are a couple tools but they're not that great or they've but they're not that great or they've but they're not that great or they've been abandoned. or you know there's been abandoned. or you know there's been abandoned. or you know there's there's ways to kind of validate just

there's ways to kind of validate just there's ways to kind of validate just using free or lightly paid uh keyword using free or lightly paid uh keyword using free or lightly paid uh keyword tools and trying to find um gaps in tools and trying to find um gaps in tools and trying to find um gaps in these market markets or even these days these market markets or even these days these market markets or even these days there's fewer gaps but it's places where there's fewer gaps but it's places where there's fewer gaps but it's places where people have launched and abandoned or people have launched and abandoned or people have launched and abandoned or where they're really not doing a good where they're really not doing a good where they're really not doing a good job and you see an angle and then I job and you see an angle and then I job and you see an angle and then I would try to write some code quickly and would try to write some code quickly and would try to write some code quickly and and and move there. Now having a few and and move there. Now having a few and and move there. Now having a few customer development conversations or customer development conversations or customer development conversations or trying to figure out hey where do these trying to figure out hey where do these trying to figure out hey where do these people hang out that would use a plugin people hang out that would use a plugin people hang out that would use a plugin like this? Oh, they're in a Facebook. like this? Oh, they're in a Facebook. like this? Oh, they're in a Facebook. They're in a couple Facebook groups. They're in a couple Facebook groups. They're in a couple Facebook groups. Becoming part of those Facebook groups Becoming part of those Facebook groups Becoming part of those Facebook groups and participating. They're in these and participating. They're in these and participating. They're in these Slack groups. They're in these forums, Slack groups. They're in these forums, Slack groups. They're in these forums, these um you know, discourse or discuss these um you know, discourse or discuss these um you know, discourse or discuss groups. There are ways to get this up to groups. There are ways to get this up to groups. There are ways to get this up to I would say 20 30 40% validation. And to I would say 20 30 40% validation. And to I would say 20 30 40% validation. And to be able to write code and ship something be able to write code and ship something be able to write code and ship something in 2 weeks, 3 weeks for my bet, for my in 2 weeks, 3 weeks for my bet, for my in 2 weeks, 3 weeks for my bet, for my money, I'm probably going to write a money, I'm probably going to write a money, I'm probably going to write a little bit of code, you know, and get it little bit of code, you know, and get it little bit of code, you know, and get it out there. And the learning starts with out there. And the learning starts with out there. And the learning starts with every bit of validation. and frankly every bit of validation. and frankly every bit of validation. and frankly getting something out there quickly in getting something out there quickly in getting something out there quickly in this if if it's a small you know small this if if it's a small you know small this if if it's a small you know small small niche is not the right word but if small niche is not the right word but if small niche is not the right word but if it is a micro idea like this um I would it is a micro idea like this um I would it is a micro idea like this um I would I would lean towards action more than I would lean towards action more than I would lean towards action more than trying to validate for months and months trying to validate for months and months trying to validate for months and months next question from Twitter uh it's uh next question from Twitter uh it's uh next question from Twitter uh it's uh from Ramy he is king rumstar on Twitter from Ramy he is king rumstar on Twitter from Ramy he is king rumstar on Twitter what advice would you give to someone what advice would you give to someone what advice would you give to someone entering a somewhat competitive market entering a somewhat competitive market entering a somewhat competitive market let's say five to 10 direct competitors let's say five to 10 direct competitors let's say five to 10 direct competitors which is sounds ugly but it's actually which is sounds ugly but it's actually which is sounds ugly but it's actually less ugly than CRM project management less ugly than CRM project management less ugly than CRM project management software ESPs uh marketing automation software ESPs uh marketing automation software ESPs uh marketing automation providers where there are literally providers where there are literally providers where there are literally hundreds of of players so five to 10

hundreds of of players so five to 10 hundreds of of players so five to 10 direct competitors while that's a thing direct competitors while that's a thing direct competitors while that's a thing not the end of the world more not the end of the world more not the end of the world more specifically what would you do to specifically what would you do to specifically what would you do to outmuscle the competition when the outmuscle the competition when the outmuscle the competition when the resources are fairly equal but the comp resources are fairly equal but the comp resources are fairly equal but the comp the competition has social proof and the competition has social proof and the competition has social proof and social capital I would not try to social capital I would not try to social capital I would not try to outmuscle the competition if I did not outmuscle the competition if I did not outmuscle the competition if I did not have a lot of money or social capital or have a lot of money or social capital or have a lot of money or social capital or social proof and you're not going to social proof and you're not going to social proof and you're not going to muscle them. So, it's there's this move muscle them. So, it's there's this move muscle them. So, it's there's this move in jiu-jitsu or just the whole premise in jiu-jitsu or just the whole premise in jiu-jitsu or just the whole premise of jiu-jitsu is you don't if someone you of jiu-jitsu is you don't if someone you of jiu-jitsu is you don't if someone you have a bigger opponent than you, you have a bigger opponent than you, you have a bigger opponent than you, you don't go head-on with them and try to don't go head-on with them and try to don't go head-on with them and try to outstrength them or out muscle them outstrength them or out muscle them outstrength them or out muscle them because they will win. What you do is because they will win. What you do is because they will win. What you do is you try to find you try to take their you try to find you try to take their you try to find you try to take their momentum when they punch or when they momentum when they punch or when they momentum when they punch or when they lunge at you and you actually parry and lunge at you and you actually parry and lunge at you and you actually parry and you use their momentum against them to you use their momentum against them to you use their momentum against them to get them on the ground and then you you get them on the ground and then you you get them on the ground and then you you grapple. grapple. grapple. Similarly, I would use my opponent's Similarly, I would use my opponent's Similarly, I would use my opponent's strengths against them. So, an example strengths against them. So, an example strengths against them. So, an example is you have five to 10 direct is you have five to 10 direct is you have five to 10 direct competitors. They have social proof and competitors. They have social proof and competitors. They have social proof and social capital. What are they doing social capital. What are they doing social capital. What are they doing wrong? Are you in their forums or their wrong? Are you in their forums or their wrong? Are you in their forums or their private Facebook groups? What are their private Facebook groups? What are their private Facebook groups? What are their customers complaining about? Where are customers complaining about? Where are customers complaining about? Where are they dropping the ball? Because they dropping the ball? Because they dropping the ball? Because customers or companies that get to a customers or companies that get to a customers or companies that get to a million dollars in ARR, 10 million in million dollars in ARR, 10 million in million dollars in ARR, 10 million in ARR, they tend to be leaving out ARR, they tend to be leaving out ARR, they tend to be leaving out sections of the market that they just sections of the market that they just sections of the market that they just have to ignore and they may be making have to ignore and they may be making have to ignore and they may be making people um disappointing a certain subset people um disappointing a certain subset people um disappointing a certain subset of their customer base or of their of their customer base or of their of their customer base or of their prospect base. It's even better if you prospect base. It's even better if you prospect base. It's even better if you get really big customers. These are the get really big customers. These are the get really big customers. These are the I'm sorry, really big competitors I'm sorry, really big competitors I'm sorry, really big competitors because these are way easier to compete because these are way easier to compete because these are way easier to compete against companies like QuickBooks and

against companies like QuickBooks and against companies like QuickBooks and PayPal. You know, think of Stripe PayPal. You know, think of Stripe PayPal. You know, think of Stripe launching as PayPal. Think of Zero launching as PayPal. Think of Zero launching as PayPal. Think of Zero launching at against QuickBooks. Think launching at against QuickBooks. Think launching at against QuickBooks. Think of Drip launching against Marquetto of Drip launching against Marquetto of Drip launching against Marquetto Partardott and Partardott and Partardott and Infusionoft. They're kind of these big Infusionoft. They're kind of these big Infusionoft. They're kind of these big lumbering companies that aren't shipping lumbering companies that aren't shipping lumbering companies that aren't shipping very often. And they aren't they don't very often. And they aren't they don't very often. And they aren't they don't have the amazing UX that you can build have the amazing UX that you can build have the amazing UX that you can build from the ground up and they aren't just from the ground up and they aren't just from the ground up and they aren't just doing handholding with their customers. doing handholding with their customers. doing handholding with their customers. They aren't building the features that a They aren't building the features that a They aren't building the features that a subset or a vertical, you know, of the subset or a vertical, you know, of the subset or a vertical, you know, of the customer set might want. So, I would customer set might want. So, I would customer set might want. So, I would start at the grassroots and I would start at the grassroots and I would start at the grassroots and I would start by trying to find five or 10 start by trying to find five or 10 start by trying to find five or 10 unhappy customers that I could interact unhappy customers that I could interact unhappy customers that I could interact with and say, "What are you unhappy with and say, "What are you unhappy with and say, "What are you unhappy with?" And if you'll get someone on the with?" And if you'll get someone on the with?" And if you'll get someone on the phone and they'll just complain about phone and they'll just complain about phone and they'll just complain about everything. Oh, the app's impossible to everything. Oh, the app's impossible to everything. Oh, the app's impossible to use and it's too expensive and no one use and it's too expensive and no one use and it's too expensive and no one listens to my phone calls and I send listens to my phone calls and I send listens to my phone calls and I send them 10 emails a week and they don't them 10 emails a week and they don't them 10 emails a week and they don't respond. Okay, that's a toxic customer. respond. Okay, that's a toxic customer. respond. Okay, that's a toxic customer. They're angry with everything all the They're angry with everything all the They're angry with everything all the time. They're going to be unhappy with time. They're going to be unhappy with time. They're going to be unhappy with you, too. Goodbye. But then you'll get you, too. Goodbye. But then you'll get you, too. Goodbye. But then you'll get people who are they they're pretty people who are they they're pretty people who are they they're pretty reasonable and they're like, you know reasonable and they're like, you know reasonable and they're like, you know what, they have ignored this corner of what, they have ignored this corner of what, they have ignored this corner of the the this corner of the market where the the this corner of the market where the the this corner of the market where photographers have special I'm making photographers have special I'm making photographers have special I'm making this up, but photographers have special this up, but photographers have special this up, but photographers have special bookkeeping needs and their tax is bookkeeping needs and their tax is bookkeeping needs and their tax is calculated differently and QuickBooks calculated differently and QuickBooks calculated differently and QuickBooks has just not listened. Suddenly it's has just not listened. Suddenly it's has just not listened. Suddenly it's like, oh, really? Well, who else could like, oh, really? Well, who else could like, oh, really? Well, who else could support photographers, you know, tax, support photographers, you know, tax, support photographers, you know, tax, bookkeeping, accounting needs? Who, you bookkeeping, accounting needs? Who, you bookkeeping, accounting needs? Who, you know, what other what other things have know, what other what other things have know, what other what other things have you tried to fix this? And it's like, you tried to fix this? And it's like, you tried to fix this? And it's like, well, I've looked and there's not a an well, I've looked and there's not a an well, I've looked and there's not a an app that does this. Well, then it's app that does this. Well, then it's app that does this. Well, then it's like, okay, can I find 10 more like, okay, can I find 10 more like, okay, can I find 10 more photographers or, you know, salon owners photographers or, you know, salon owners photographers or, you know, salon owners or whoever it may be, startup founders?

or whoever it may be, startup founders? or whoever it may be, startup founders? And that's where I would start is how do And that's where I would start is how do And that's where I would start is how do you find that subset if you have all you find that subset if you have all you find that subset if you have all this competition that is being left out, this competition that is being left out, this competition that is being left out, the other thing I would think about if the other thing I would think about if the other thing I would think about if you're already in the space and you try you're already in the space and you try you're already in the space and you try to look for the hated competitor and do to look for the hated competitor and do to look for the hated competitor and do the become the opposite of them. you if the become the opposite of them. you if the become the opposite of them. you if you can't figure out a unique you can't figure out a unique you can't figure out a unique positioning where it's like we are like positioning where it's like we are like positioning where it's like we are like QuickBooks but not you know we're the QuickBooks but not you know we're the QuickBooks but not you know we're the opposite of QuickBooks because we we opposite of QuickBooks because we we opposite of QuickBooks because we we suck less or we're like Quickbook suck less or we're like Quickbook suck less or we're like Quickbook QuickBooks but we're for this particular QuickBooks but we're for this particular QuickBooks but we're for this particular um vertical. So think of like Savvy um vertical. So think of like Savvy um vertical. So think of like Savvy Calal, right? So there's Calendarly and Calal, right? So there's Calendarly and Calal, right? So there's Calendarly and there's all these big competitors, but there's all these big competitors, but there's all these big competitors, but look at what Dererick Rhyr is doing with look at what Dererick Rhyr is doing with look at what Dererick Rhyr is doing with SavvyCal. You can go to savvycal.com to SavvyCal. You can go to savvycal.com to SavvyCal. You can go to savvycal.com to check it out. He's basically saying it's check it out. He's basically saying it's check it out. He's basically saying it's for um busy startup founders and for um busy startup founders and for um busy startup founders and executives who have some pretty specific executives who have some pretty specific executives who have some pretty specific needs and want to maybe guard maker time needs and want to maybe guard maker time needs and want to maybe guard maker time and want to eliminate the awkwardness of and want to eliminate the awkwardness of and want to eliminate the awkwardness of sending a calendar invite. He's taking a sending a calendar invite. He's taking a sending a calendar invite. He's taking a pretty specific tact there. He's taking pretty specific tact there. He's taking pretty specific tact there. He's taking a unique position in the space. So a unique position in the space. So a unique position in the space. So that's one way. Another way in these that's one way. Another way in these that's one way. Another way in these competitive spaces is to have a unique competitive spaces is to have a unique competitive spaces is to have a unique traffic channel. So that is you look at traffic channel. So that is you look at traffic channel. So that is you look at at what someone like maybe Ruben Gomez at what someone like maybe Ruben Gomez at what someone like maybe Ruben Gomez is doing with a doc sketch which is e is doing with a doc sketch which is e is doing with a doc sketch which is e signature. It's a doc signature. It's a doc signature. It's a doc sketch.com. That's a it's a terribly sketch.com. That's a it's a terribly sketch.com. That's a it's a terribly crowded space with bill literally crowded space with bill literally crowded space with bill literally billion and bill billions and billions u billion and bill billions and billions u billion and bill billions and billions u of dollars in market cap are in that of dollars in market cap are in that of dollars in market cap are in that space and yet he has figured out a way space and yet he has figured out a way space and yet he has figured out a way to do amazing content marketing amazing to do amazing content marketing amazing to do amazing content marketing amazing SEO and just channel some of that SEO and just channel some of that SEO and just channel some of that traffic to where he is being highly traffic to where he is being highly traffic to where he is being highly successful in a competitive space. So, successful in a competitive space. So, successful in a competitive space. So, if I was going to go in to summarize, if if I was going to go in to summarize, if if I was going to go in to summarize, if I was going to go into a competitive I was going to go into a competitive I was going to go into a competitive space like this, I would look for a

space like this, I would look for a space like this, I would look for a hated competitor. I would look for areas hated competitor. I would look for areas hated competitor. I would look for areas where that competitor is dropping the where that competitor is dropping the where that competitor is dropping the ball with either a specific audience or ball with either a specific audience or ball with either a specific audience or a specific group of people. I would look a specific group of people. I would look a specific group of people. I would look to position myself uniquely or I would to position myself uniquely or I would to position myself uniquely or I would look for for a unique traffic channel or look for for a unique traffic channel or look for for a unique traffic channel or all of the if you get all the above. I all of the if you get all the above. I all of the if you get all the above. I mean, that's where we actually with mean, that's where we actually with mean, that's where we actually with Drip, we had I think three of those Drip, we had I think three of those Drip, we had I think three of those four. Every one of those you have is four. Every one of those you have is four. Every one of those you have is better. If you only have one, you can better. If you only have one, you can better. If you only have one, you can still make it work. It's just more of an still make it work. It's just more of an still make it work. It's just more of an uphill battle. So, thanks for the uphill battle. So, thanks for the uphill battle. So, thanks for the question, Ramy. Hope that was question, Ramy. Hope that was question, Ramy. Hope that was helpful. All right, I'm checking in on helpful. All right, I'm checking in on helpful. All right, I'm checking in on Slack here. All right, producer Xander Slack here. All right, producer Xander Slack here. All right, producer Xander is gonna keep is gonna keep is gonna keep um All right, producer Xander, keep keep um All right, producer Xander, keep keep um All right, producer Xander, keep keep popping the questions in here. It looks popping the questions in here. It looks popping the questions in here. It looks like there's a lot coming into Slack and like there's a lot coming into Slack and like there's a lot coming into Slack and I will keep moving. I'm checking my I will keep moving. I'm checking my I will keep moving. I'm checking my time. Okay, I'm about 15 minutes in. So, time. Okay, I'm about 15 minutes in. So, time. Okay, I'm about 15 minutes in. So, uh next question is from Garrett uh next question is from Garrett uh next question is from Garrett Lancaster from Microsoft Connect. He Lancaster from Microsoft Connect. He Lancaster from Microsoft Connect. He said, "If you had a slow growing 12K MRR said, "If you had a slow growing 12K MRR said, "If you had a slow growing 12K MRR self-funded B2B SAS, I love the self-funded B2B SAS, I love the self-funded B2B SAS, I love the specificity of this. So doing about 150K specificity of this. So doing about 150K specificity of this. So doing about 150K a year, self-funded B2B SAS, what a year, self-funded B2B SAS, what a year, self-funded B2B SAS, what questions would you be asking yourself?"

questions would you be asking yourself?" questions would you be asking yourself?" And I think he's implying it's slow And I think he's implying it's slow And I think he's implying it's slow growing. So what questions would you be growing. So what questions would you be growing. So what questions would you be asking yourself to to get it growing asking yourself to to get it growing asking yourself to to get it growing faster? How much do you think about faster? How much do you think about faster? How much do you think about retention versus conversion in this retention versus conversion in this retention versus conversion in this position? position? position? Okay, I would be well, so I would look Okay, I would be well, so I would look Okay, I would be well, so I would look at if I if my retention was not high, I at if I if my retention was not high, I at if I if my retention was not high, I have a problem because if my retention have a problem because if my retention have a problem because if my retention is not high, then I'm I'm going to use is not high, then I'm I'm going to use is not high, then I'm I'm going to use this phrase that is it's product market this phrase that is it's product market this phrase that is it's product market fit. And I know that's just big muddy fit. And I know that's just big muddy fit. And I know that's just big muddy amorphous thing, but all it means is are amorphous thing, but all it means is are amorphous thing, but all it means is are people sticking around? Do people love people sticking around? Do people love people sticking around? Do people love your product? Do they do you know do your product? Do they do you know do your product? Do they do you know do they stick around? Is your churn below they stick around? Is your churn below they stick around? Is your churn below 6, 7%, your aggregate churn below that 6, 7%, your aggregate churn below that 6, 7%, your aggregate churn below that number? Depends on price point, depends number? Depends on price point, depends number? Depends on price point, depends on a bunch of stuff. But if you're below on a bunch of stuff. But if you're below on a bunch of stuff. But if you're below 5% then I would not be worrying about 5% then I would not be worrying about 5% then I would not be worrying about retention now and I would be looking retention now and I would be looking retention now and I would be looking about you know at at increasing traffic about you know at at increasing traffic about you know at at increasing traffic and increasing conversion. The big and increasing conversion. The big and increasing conversion. The big question to ask is where where's the question to ask is where where's the question to ask is where where's the metrics gap? If you're churning out 10 metrics gap? If you're churning out 10 metrics gap? If you're churning out 10 12 15% a month. That's the number one 12 15% a month. That's the number one 12 15% a month. That's the number one problem. That's what you have to fix problem. That's what you have to fix problem. That's what you have to fix before you do anything else. That's before you do anything else. That's before you do anything else. That's where I found myself when we were where I found myself when we were where I found myself when we were building Drip and we were about I'm building Drip and we were about I'm building Drip and we were about I'm trying to think we were a few months trying to think we were a few months trying to think we were a few months after launch and we had grown to 8 10K a after launch and we had grown to 8 10K a after launch and we had grown to 8 10K a month and we just were turning everybody month and we just were turning everybody month and we just were turning everybody out. So that was a big retention out. So that was a big retention out. So that was a big retention problem. You can watch my microcom talk, problem. You can watch my microcom talk, problem. You can watch my microcom talk, the inside story of self-funded SAS the inside story of self-funded SAS the inside story of self-funded SAS growth, I believe it's called, and it's growth, I believe it's called, and it's growth, I believe it's called, and it's from, you know, whatever 2014, from, you know, whatever 2014, from, you know, whatever 2014, 2015. If your retention is fine and and 2015. If your retention is fine and and 2015. If your retention is fine and and people get on and then churn, you know, people get on and then churn, you know, people get on and then churn, you know, goes to goes really low for people, well goes to goes really low for people, well goes to goes really low for people, well then of course it's how much traffic then of course it's how much traffic then of course it's how much traffic which your visitor to trial uh sign up which your visitor to trial uh sign up which your visitor to trial uh sign up rate or visitor to visitor to trial

rate or visitor to visitor to trial rate or visitor to visitor to trial should be. I'd like around 1% if I'm should be. I'd like around 1% if I'm should be. I'd like around 1% if I'm asking for a credit card and I'd like asking for a credit card and I'd like asking for a credit card and I'd like about 15% give or take, maybe 20% if I'm about 15% give or take, maybe 20% if I'm about 15% give or take, maybe 20% if I'm not asking for a credit card. And if I'm not asking for a credit card. And if I'm not asking for a credit card. And if I'm bel substantially below those, then of bel substantially below those, then of bel substantially below those, then of course you have a trial conversion course you have a trial conversion course you have a trial conversion problem. If I'm asking for credit card problem. If I'm asking for credit card problem. If I'm asking for credit card upfront trial to paid, I want to be upfront trial to paid, I want to be upfront trial to paid, I want to be between 40 and 60%. If I'm below 40%, I between 40 and 60%. If I'm below 40%, I between 40 and 60%. If I'm below 40%, I have a problem. Um you can look in the have a problem. Um you can look in the have a problem. Um you can look in the state of independent SAS from 2020 and state of independent SAS from 2020 and state of independent SAS from 2020 and look at what other people what other look at what other people what other look at what other people what other conversion rates are or you can look at conversion rates are or you can look at conversion rates are or you can look at um Craig Huitt's talk from Microcom um Craig Huitt's talk from Microcom um Craig Huitt's talk from Microcom Europe in what was just last year in Europe in what was just last year in Europe in what was just last year in which feels like five years ago. It was which feels like five years ago. It was which feels like five years ago. It was this last October and it's something this last October and it's something this last October and it's something about you know viewing your metrics. about you know viewing your metrics. about you know viewing your metrics. Maybe producers Xander can post that in Maybe producers Xander can post that in Maybe producers Xander can post that in in the microcom connect Slack. But he in the microcom connect Slack. But he in the microcom connect Slack. But he basically walk through walks through basically walk through walks through basically walk through walks through rules of thumb. Rules of thumb and then rules of thumb. Rules of thumb and then rules of thumb. Rules of thumb and then says these are the things to pay says these are the things to pay says these are the things to pay attention to if you're out if you're attention to if you're out if you're attention to if you're out if you're below these rules of thumb. Otherwise, below these rules of thumb. Otherwise, below these rules of thumb. Otherwise, move on to the next thing. And at a move on to the next thing. And at a move on to the next thing. And at a certain point, you get to where it's certain point, you get to where it's certain point, you get to where it's like my whole funnel is actually pretty like my whole funnel is actually pretty like my whole funnel is actually pretty solid. Now, I'm just going to drive more solid. Now, I'm just going to drive more solid. Now, I'm just going to drive more traffic. I need to spend money on ads. I traffic. I need to spend money on ads. I traffic. I need to spend money on ads. I need to spend money on content. I need need to spend money on content. I need need to spend money on content. I need to do integrations. I need to go on to do integrations. I need to go on to do integrations. I need to go on podcast. Whatever it is, then what podcast. Whatever it is, then what podcast. Whatever it is, then what you'll see is as you get more traffic, you'll see is as you get more traffic, you'll see is as you get more traffic, your conversion rates in almost your conversion rates in almost your conversion rates in almost inevitably drop. And then you have to inevitably drop. And then you have to inevitably drop. And then you have to figure out how to then cater to those figure out how to then cater to those figure out how to then cater to those new folks. Next question is still from new folks. Next question is still from new folks. Next question is still from Garrett. He says, "How would you go Garrett. He says, "How would you go Garrett. He says, "How would you go about offloading tier one customer about offloading tier one customer about offloading tier one customer support, meaning frontline, let's say support, meaning frontline, let's say support, meaning frontline, let's say it's it's, you know, intercom chat or it it's it's, you know, intercom chat or it it's it's, you know, intercom chat or it is, you know, user list um messaging or is, you know, user list um messaging or is, you know, user list um messaging or it's email. How would you go about it's email. How would you go about it's email. How would you go about offloading it when quality offloading it when quality offloading it when quality support/training is an integral part of

support/training is an integral part of support/training is an integral part of your business model?" Everyone who asked your business model?" Everyone who asked your business model?" Everyone who asked this question says when quality this question says when quality this question says when quality support/training is an integral part of support/training is an integral part of support/training is an integral part of your business model, it's an integral your business model, it's an integral your business model, it's an integral part of every early startup's business part of every early startup's business part of every early startup's business model. always feels like the founder, model. always feels like the founder, model. always feels like the founder, much like if I'm a developer, I write much like if I'm a developer, I write much like if I'm a developer, I write the best code in the world. I always the best code in the world. I always the best code in the world. I always feel like I can give the best support. feel like I can give the best support. feel like I can give the best support. And in many cases, that's relatively And in many cases, that's relatively And in many cases, that's relatively accurate. But how would you go about it? accurate. But how would you go about it? accurate. But how would you go about it? You find someone who's really [ __ ] You find someone who's really [ __ ] You find someone who's really [ __ ] good. That's what you do. You don't good. That's what you do. You don't good. That's what you do. You don't settle for someone who isn't going to settle for someone who isn't going to settle for someone who isn't going to learn your tool and who isn't going to learn your tool and who isn't going to learn your tool and who isn't going to be ravenous about really wanting to make be ravenous about really wanting to make be ravenous about really wanting to make people happy and learning your tool. And people happy and learning your tool. And people happy and learning your tool. And I had a non-technical, non-developer I had a non-technical, non-developer I had a non-technical, non-developer support guy that I worked with from I support guy that I worked with from I support guy that I worked with from I think it was about 2011, 2012 all the think it was about 2011, 2012 all the think it was about 2011, 2012 all the way through when we were acquired. Then way through when we were acquired. Then way through when we were acquired. Then he worked with Drip through 2018 2019 he worked with Drip through 2018 2019 he worked with Drip through 2018 2019 and he was not a developer but he and he was not a developer but he and he was not a developer but he figured out how to view source. He would figured out how to view source. He would figured out how to view source. He would go um dig into people's JavaScript and go um dig into people's JavaScript and go um dig into people's JavaScript and hack around in it. Uh obviously on his hack around in it. Uh obviously on his hack around in it. Uh obviously on his client side he wouldn't hack their client side he wouldn't hack their client side he wouldn't hack their website. He learned I taught him how to website. He learned I taught him how to website. He learned I taught him how to use FTP. He learned how to edit HTML. use FTP. He learned how to edit HTML. use FTP. He learned how to edit HTML. Like he was just teaching him this stuff Like he was just teaching him this stuff Like he was just teaching him this stuff himself this stuff and he would himself this stuff and he would himself this stuff and he would sometimes ask me for a loom a quick sometimes ask me for a loom a quick sometimes ask me for a loom a quick screencast about stuff. But for the most screencast about stuff. But for the most screencast about stuff. But for the most part he went out and educated himself.

part he went out and educated himself. part he went out and educated himself. And so was he in the early days was he And so was he in the early days was he And so was he in the early days was he the fastest responder to tickets ever? the fastest responder to tickets ever? the fastest responder to tickets ever? Well, no, because he was teaching Well, no, because he was teaching Well, no, because he was teaching himself stuff. But by the time he was uh himself stuff. But by the time he was uh himself stuff. But by the time he was uh working, you know, on Drip for a year or working, you know, on Drip for a year or working, you know, on Drip for a year or two, he knew the product. He knew how to two, he knew the product. He knew how to two, he knew the product. He knew how to answer support way better than any of answer support way better than any of answer support way better than any of us, way better than me, way better than us, way better than me, way better than us, way better than me, way better than the developers. And that's the kind of the developers. And that's the kind of the developers. And that's the kind of person you're looking for. And how did I person you're looking for. And how did I person you're looking for. And how did I find him? I went on Upwork and I went find him? I went on Upwork and I went find him? I went on Upwork and I went through two or three support people through two or three support people through two or three support people until I found a guy who was really good. until I found a guy who was really good. until I found a guy who was really good. He was working for a bunch of companies He was working for a bunch of companies He was working for a bunch of companies at once. He was doing three hours for at once. He was doing three hours for at once. He was doing three hours for me, then 5 hours a week, then 10. And me, then 5 hours a week, then 10. And me, then 5 hours a week, then 10. And eventually I said, "I just want to hire eventually I said, "I just want to hire eventually I said, "I just want to hire you full-time." I was good to work with. you full-time." I was good to work with. you full-time." I was good to work with. He really we got along well. We never He really we got along well. We never He really we got along well. We never did video chat. We never actually met in did video chat. We never actually met in did video chat. We never actually met in person. He lived in Mexico and that was person. He lived in Mexico and that was person. He lived in Mexico and that was it. Many of you if you emailed Drip and it. Many of you if you emailed Drip and it. Many of you if you emailed Drip and you Andy responded to every support you Andy responded to every support you Andy responded to every support request for the first like three and a request for the first like three and a request for the first like three and a half years of Drip life. I think it was half years of Drip life. I think it was half years of Drip life. I think it was three and a half. Maybe it was two and a three and a half. Maybe it was two and a three and a half. Maybe it was two and a half. Every single frontline support was half. Every single frontline support was half. Every single frontline support was just one guy Andy. And that's what you just one guy Andy. And that's what you just one guy Andy. And that's what you do. That's what I would do today. Hire do. That's what I would do today. Hire do. That's what I would do today. Hire good people. Next question from Pablo in good people. Next question from Pablo in good people. Next question from Pablo in Microsoft Connect. How do you feel about Microsoft Connect. How do you feel about Microsoft Connect. How do you feel about entrepreneurship being taught to entrepreneurship being taught to entrepreneurship being taught to children? Do you think it should be children? Do you think it should be children? Do you think it should be taught? Have you witnessed good taught? Have you witnessed good taught? Have you witnessed good execution of teaching children execution of teaching children execution of teaching children entrepreneurship? I I feel good about it entrepreneurship? I I feel good about it entrepreneurship? I I feel good about it with a caveat. I mean, my son had course with a caveat. I mean, my son had course with a caveat. I mean, my son had course in 8th grade or maybe it was freshman in in 8th grade or maybe it was freshman in in 8th grade or maybe it was freshman in high school and it it was teaching him high school and it it was teaching him high school and it it was teaching him stuff about intellectual property. It stuff about intellectual property. It stuff about intellectual property. It was trademarks and it was logos and he was trademarks and it was logos and he was trademarks and it was logos and he had to design a logo and you know, so had to design a logo and you know, so had to design a logo and you know, so were they teaching him everything we were they teaching him everything we were they teaching him everything we learned in microconvo? Of course not.

learned in microconvo? Of course not. learned in microconvo? Of course not. But did he learn some basics that he But did he learn some basics that he But did he learn some basics that he didn't know the difference between didn't know the difference between didn't know the difference between trademark and copyright and you know trademark and copyright and you know trademark and copyright and you know some basic fundamentals? I thought that some basic fundamentals? I thought that some basic fundamentals? I thought that was good. Um I do think every I think was good. Um I do think every I think was good. Um I do think every I think all of us in high school should learn all of us in high school should learn all of us in high school should learn something about entrepreneurship, something about entrepreneurship, something about entrepreneurship, something about um you know how something about um you know how something about um you know how businesses work, something about businesses work, something about businesses work, something about personal finance to be honest. That's personal finance to be honest. That's personal finance to be honest. That's not why is that not taught in school? not why is that not taught in school? not why is that not taught in school? Why do none of us know what like really Why do none of us know what like really Why do none of us know what like really how the stock market works? You have to how the stock market works? You have to how the stock market works? You have to go educate yourself. You have to go seek go educate yourself. You have to go seek go educate yourself. You have to go seek that out and that to me or or how to how that out and that to me or or how to how that out and that to me or or how to how to just simply you know find a budget to just simply you know find a budget to just simply you know find a budget and stick to it. that to me it's a real and stick to it. that to me it's a real and stick to it. that to me it's a real problem that that is not taught to problem that that is not taught to problem that that is not taught to whether it's again whether it's our whether it's again whether it's our whether it's again whether it's our children are probably our high schoolers children are probably our high schoolers children are probably our high schoolers and we have civics and economics right and we have civics and economics right and we have civics and economics right where we kind of learn about the economy where we kind of learn about the economy where we kind of learn about the economy and nobody pays attention about the you and nobody pays attention about the you and nobody pays attention about the you know the three branches of government know the three branches of government know the three branches of government I'm only joking of course people pay I'm only joking of course people pay I'm only joking of course people pay attention but I I think uh personal attention but I I think uh personal attention but I I think uh personal finance and something about finance and something about finance and something about entrepreneurship I think they should be entrepreneurship I think they should be entrepreneurship I think they should be exposed to it to know this is what exposed to it to know this is what exposed to it to know this is what entrepreneurship might look like and entrepreneurship might look like and entrepreneurship might look like and there are examples of people who are there are examples of people who are there are examples of people who are making you know caramels or or cookies making you know caramels or or cookies making you know caramels or or cookies in a local kitchen and you could do a in a local kitchen and you could do a in a local kitchen and you could do a tech startup and raise funding or not or tech startup and raise funding or not or tech startup and raise funding or not or you could start an online business. You you could start an online business. You you could start an online business. You know, I do think just being exposed to know, I do think just being exposed to know, I do think just being exposed to that would be super helpful for that would be super helpful for that would be super helpful for children. So, um, yes, I do think it children. So, um, yes, I do think it children. So, um, yes, I do think it should be taught. I can't think of an should be taught. I can't think of an should be taught. I can't think of an amazing example of anyone who's who's amazing example of anyone who's who's amazing example of anyone who's who's done it. I will give a spoiler that I done it. I will give a spoiler that I done it. I will give a spoiler that I don't know if she's announced this, but don't know if she's announced this, but don't know if she's announced this, but Dr. Sher Walling, my wife, is writing a Dr. Sher Walling, my wife, is writing a Dr. Sher Walling, my wife, is writing a book called, it's like raising book called, it's like raising book called, it's like raising entrepreneurial children or something entrepreneurial children or something entrepreneurial children or something like to that effect. That's the working like to that effect. That's the working like to that effect. That's the working title. So, go to zenfounder.com and sign title. So, go to zenfounder.com and sign title. So, go to zenfounder.com and sign up for her email list if you want to

up for her email list if you want to up for her email list if you want to hear about it. Of course, I'll be hear about it. Of course, I'll be hear about it. Of course, I'll be talking about in the future. I may even talking about in the future. I may even talking about in the future. I may even contribute a chapter or two. Sherry and contribute a chapter or two. Sherry and contribute a chapter or two. Sherry and I had a Zenfounder episode a while back I had a Zenfounder episode a while back I had a Zenfounder episode a while back that that that um uh or Zenfounder episode in the first um uh or Zenfounder episode in the first um uh or Zenfounder episode in the first maybe 30 episodes that was all about maybe 30 episodes that was all about maybe 30 episodes that was all about raising entrepreneurial kids if you want raising entrepreneurial kids if you want raising entrepreneurial kids if you want to check that out. Next question. What to check that out. Next question. What to check that out. Next question. What are things you notice about bootstrapper are things you notice about bootstrapper are things you notice about bootstrapper that bootstrappers commonly overlook that bootstrappers commonly overlook that bootstrappers commonly overlook that are preventing them from achieving that are preventing them from achieving that are preventing them from achieving their goals? I think a lot of their goals? I think a lot of their goals? I think a lot of bootstrappers overlook the fact that you bootstrappers overlook the fact that you bootstrappers overlook the fact that you have to market that it's not about have to market that it's not about have to market that it's not about building products. I think bootstrappers building products. I think bootstrappers building products. I think bootstrappers don't pay enough attention to their don't pay enough attention to their don't pay enough attention to their metrics. we their analytics or their metrics. we their analytics or their metrics. we their analytics or their metrics and they just want to kind of go metrics and they just want to kind of go metrics and they just want to kind of go through and it's like hey they don't through and it's like hey they don't through and it's like hey they don't even know what's working and you ask even know what's working and you ask even know what's working and you ask someone a question and they say what's someone a question and they say what's someone a question and they say what's working is word of mouth and it's working is word of mouth and it's working is word of mouth and it's like yeah I know I I have slacks coming like yeah I know I I have slacks coming like yeah I know I I have slacks coming in word of mouth is um usually the wrong in word of mouth is um usually the wrong in word of mouth is um usually the wrong answer so there I think there's a lot of answer so there I think there's a lot of answer so there I think there's a lot of mistakes that people make and I think if mistakes that people make and I think if mistakes that people make and I think if they pay attention to you know a lot to they pay attention to you know a lot to they pay attention to you know a lot to micro talks point this out and you know micro talks point this out and you know micro talks point this out and you know a lot of the teachings from uh uh I a lot of the teachings from uh uh I a lot of the teachings from uh uh I would say listening to startups with the would say listening to startups with the would say listening to startups with the rest of us um even nugget one which is a rest of us um even nugget one which is a rest of us um even nugget one which is a pretty interesting website Justin pretty interesting website Justin pretty interesting website Justin Vincent has a pretty interesting course Vincent has a pretty interesting course Vincent has a pretty interesting course there so yeah I think there's there are there so yeah I think there's there are there so yeah I think there's there are definitely the common mistakes building definitely the common mistakes building definitely the common mistakes building before finding an audience building before finding an audience building before finding an audience building before validate not an audience but a before validate not an audience but a before validate not an audience but a customer base building before validating customer base building before validating customer base building before validating I think these are a lot of things that I think these are a lot of things that I think these are a lot of things that people do and I think people give up too people do and I think people give up too people do and I think people give up too easily I think they build something it easily I think they build something it easily I think they build something it goes to a plateau and they kind of give goes to a plateau and they kind of give goes to a plateau and they kind of give up instead of actually doing the hard up instead of actually doing the hard up instead of actually doing the hard work I think it's a lot more hard work work I think it's a lot more hard work work I think it's a lot more hard work um than people realize. I'm zipping um than people realize. I'm zipping um than people realize. I'm zipping through these questions because there's through these questions because there's through these questions because there's like three minutes left. Another

like three minutes left. Another like three minutes left. Another question. This is from V Vijay Goel from question. This is from V Vijay Goel from question. This is from V Vijay Goel from Shuffleitics. He says, "What are some of Shuffleitics. He says, "What are some of Shuffleitics. He says, "What are some of the biggest takeaways you can see across the biggest takeaways you can see across the biggest takeaways you can see across your portfolio of early stage SAS your portfolio of early stage SAS your portfolio of early stage SAS companies? Is it uh is it one winner or companies? Is it uh is it one winner or companies? Is it uh is it one winner or one or two winners generating most one or two winners generating most one or two winners generating most returns VC style? Is it steady progress returns VC style? Is it steady progress returns VC style? Is it steady progress by most? Will the majority be default by most? Will the majority be default by most? Will the majority be default alive businesses?" The answer is yes. alive businesses?" The answer is yes. alive businesses?" The answer is yes. The vast majority are already default The vast majority are already default The vast majority are already default alive businesses. I think all I think alive businesses. I think all I think alive businesses. I think all I think every one of the 13 companies in batch 2 every one of the 13 companies in batch 2 every one of the 13 companies in batch 2 is default alive. Pretty sure. And the is default alive. Pretty sure. And the is default alive. Pretty sure. And the if I were to put a number in it, 70% of if I were to put a number in it, 70% of if I were to put a number in it, 70% of batch one, maybe 80% are default alive. batch one, maybe 80% are default alive. batch one, maybe 80% are default alive. So yes, default to alive. It's good. All So yes, default to alive. It's good. All So yes, default to alive. It's good. All of them are making steady progress. All of them are making steady progress. All of them are making steady progress. All of them. I mean, you know, of 23 of them. I mean, you know, of 23 of them. I mean, you know, of 23 companies, there's maybe two or three companies, there's maybe two or three companies, there's maybe two or three that are still, you know, not growing. that are still, you know, not growing. that are still, you know, not growing. It's two or three, four. It's it's a It's two or three, four. It's it's a It's two or three, four. It's it's a small number. So what is that? H maybe small number. So what is that? H maybe small number. So what is that? H maybe 10 10 10 10 10 10 15%. Are still trying to find that 15%. Are still trying to find that 15%. Are still trying to find that repeatable channel. Still trying to find repeatable channel. Still trying to find repeatable channel. Still trying to find that you know repeatable customer base.

that you know repeatable customer base. that you know repeatable customer base. But um it is definitely steady progress. But um it is definitely steady progress. But um it is definitely steady progress. I don't know yet on the winner. I don't I don't know yet on the winner. I don't I don't know yet on the winner. I don't think it's going to be winner take all. think it's going to be winner take all. think it's going to be winner take all. Um but to be honest, well I shouldn't Um but to be honest, well I shouldn't Um but to be honest, well I shouldn't say I don't think it will. Anar did say I don't think it will. Anar did say I don't think it will. Anar did analysis of a bunch of SAS apps. He got analysis of a bunch of SAS apps. He got analysis of a bunch of SAS apps. He got a bunch of anonymized data and he looked a bunch of anonymized data and he looked a bunch of anonymized data and he looked backwards over the last five years and backwards over the last five years and backwards over the last five years and it it if you do look at returns that it it it if you do look at returns that it it it if you do look at returns that it was it was not winner or take all but it was it was not winner or take all but it was it was not winner or take all but it was definitely a power law and power law was definitely a power law and power law was definitely a power law and power law just means there are a small amount who just means there are a small amount who just means there are a small amount who get 10 or 100 times larger than the get 10 or 100 times larger than the get 10 or 100 times larger than the others and so in that case yes that you others and so in that case yes that you others and so in that case yes that you know that or in that sense yes we may know that or in that sense yes we may know that or in that sense yes we may get there but we are still we want to get there but we are still we want to get there but we are still we want to I've been doing this for 15 years like I've been doing this for 15 years like I've been doing this for 15 years like there's a reason microconf startups for there's a reason microconf startups for there's a reason microconf startups for the rest of us and my books and and tiny the rest of us and my books and and tiny the rest of us and my books and and tiny seed exist and it's not to help. It's seed exist and it's not to help. It's seed exist and it's not to help. It's not to help the winner take all. It's to not to help the winner take all. It's to not to help the winner take all. It's to help everyone. I want to I want to raise help everyone. I want to I want to raise help everyone. I want to I want to raise the tide so all the boats go up. And so, the tide so all the boats go up. And so, the tide so all the boats go up. And so, yes, even if the returns are generated yes, even if the returns are generated yes, even if the returns are generated in that VC style winner take all, I will in that VC style winner take all, I will in that VC style winner take all, I will still be around and still be here to still be around and still be here to still be around and still be here to help everyone involved. Um, question help everyone involved. Um, question help everyone involved. Um, question from Patrick Foley. Have you ever built from Patrick Foley. Have you ever built from Patrick Foley. Have you ever built a business that got a fairly large a business that got a fairly large a business that got a fairly large portion of its revenue from services portion of its revenue from services portion of its revenue from services instead of products, but not just you instead of products, but not just you instead of products, but not just you [Music] [Music] [Music] consulting? Yes.

consulting? Yes. consulting? Yes. one I one I can think of it is called one I one I can think of it is called one I one I can think of it is called CMS theur. It was a productized service CMS theur. It was a productized service CMS theur. It was a productized service before that term existed. It was at cms before that term existed. It was at cms before that term existed. It was at cms theur.com. I don't even know if there's theur.com. I don't even know if there's theur.com. I don't even know if there's a website there anymore. I ran it for a website there anymore. I ran it for a website there anymore. I ran it for about 18 months, two years. I acquired about 18 months, two years. I acquired about 18 months, two years. I acquired it from someone who wanted to shut it it from someone who wanted to shut it it from someone who wanted to shut it down. I knew how to rank it in Google. I down. I knew how to rank it in Google. I down. I knew how to rank it in Google. I got it to the top, you know, top pa the got it to the top, you know, top pa the got it to the top, you know, top pa the top page the first page of Google for top page the first page of Google for top page the first page of Google for like WordPress theming and some other like WordPress theming and some other like WordPress theming and some other things. WordPress and Drupal and Jumla. things. WordPress and Drupal and Jumla. things. WordPress and Drupal and Jumla. And then I just had an agency. I believe And then I just had an agency. I believe And then I just had an agency. I believe they were in India. They were somewhere they were in India. They were somewhere they were in India. They were somewhere that I could outsource to for cheap. I that I could outsource to for cheap. I that I could outsource to for cheap. I marked them up 100%. So I would charge marked them up 100%. So I would charge marked them up 100%. So I would charge $500 for you'd send me a PSD. I would $500 for you'd send me a PSD. I would $500 for you'd send me a PSD. I would send it to my my agency in India. They'd send it to my my agency in India. They'd send it to my my agency in India. They'd charge me 250 bucks to turn it into a charge me 250 bucks to turn it into a charge me 250 bucks to turn it into a theme. I would send it back and make 500 theme. I would send it back and make 500 theme. I would send it back and make 500 bucks. And so it wasn't a productized bucks. And so it wasn't a productized bucks. And so it wasn't a productized subscription service, but it was these subscription service, but it was these subscription service, but it was these one-off themes. And then as custom stuff one-off themes. And then as custom stuff one-off themes. And then as custom stuff happened, we would increase the price, happened, we would increase the price, happened, we would increase the price, you know, if you needed a bunch of if you know, if you needed a bunch of if you know, if you needed a bunch of if you needed mobile responsive back in you needed mobile responsive back in you needed mobile responsive back in 2009. And it was obviously more money. 2009. And it was obviously more money. 2009. And it was obviously more money. So yes, I have um it was fine. It was a So yes, I have um it was fine. It was a So yes, I have um it was fine. It was a quite a bit of hassle. Um more hassle quite a bit of hassle. Um more hassle quite a bit of hassle. Um more hassle than I, you know, I I had that along than I, you know, I I had that along than I, you know, I I had that along with a bunch of software products and with a bunch of software products and with a bunch of software products and e-commerce and stuff and so um it it was e-commerce and stuff and so um it it was e-commerce and stuff and so um it it was okay. I w up selling it for Yeah. CMS okay. I w up selling it for Yeah. CMS okay. I w up selling it for Yeah. CMS Theur still not still live. Not quite Theur still not still live. Not quite Theur still not still live. Not quite the same as its original iteration.

the same as its original iteration. the same as its original iteration. Producer Xander posted that microphone. Producer Xander posted that microphone. Producer Xander posted that microphone. So it looks like um there's all kinds of So it looks like um there's all kinds of So it looks like um there's all kinds of of funky stuff going on. of funky stuff going on. of funky stuff going on. So yeah, I'm trying to think if there's So yeah, I'm trying to think if there's So yeah, I'm trying to think if there's any takeaways I have from that. I mean, any takeaways I have from that. I mean, any takeaways I have from that. I mean, I like productive services are a great I like productive services are a great I like productive services are a great way to get started quick these days, way to get started quick these days, way to get started quick these days, especially subscription services, you especially subscription services, you especially subscription services, you know, like you look at audience ops from know, like you look at audience ops from know, like you look at audience ops from Brian Castle or you look at podcast Brian Castle or you look at podcast Brian Castle or you look at podcast motor from Craig Huitt or there's other motor from Craig Huitt or there's other motor from Craig Huitt or there's other examples and they get they get up to, examples and they get they get up to, examples and they get they get up to, you know, whatever 20 30 40,000 a month you know, whatever 20 30 40,000 a month you know, whatever 20 30 40,000 a month in in no time. And then yes, you have to in in no time. And then yes, you have to in in no time. And then yes, you have to have process in place. You have to have have process in place. You have to have have process in place. You have to have people to manage there. There is it's people to manage there. There is it's people to manage there. There is it's not a software product, but you learn a not a software product, but you learn a not a software product, but you learn a lot. It's probably 70 80% the same as lot. It's probably 70 80% the same as lot. It's probably 70 80% the same as building a SAS and then like Craig Hwitt building a SAS and then like Craig Hwitt building a SAS and then like Craig Hwitt levered it up right to then acquire a levered it up right to then acquire a levered it up right to then acquire a WordPress plugin to then build Castos WordPress plugin to then build Castos WordPress plugin to then build Castos and now you know everything's combined and now you know everything's combined and now you know everything's combined into one. It's like a match made in into one. It's like a match made in into one. It's like a match made in heaven. It's like a chef's kiss to the heaven. It's like a chef's kiss to the heaven. It's like a chef's kiss to the stairstep approach in a way is building stairstep approach in a way is building stairstep approach in a way is building these businesses and and building on top these businesses and and building on top these businesses and and building on top of each other. All right, we are two of each other. All right, we are two of each other. All right, we are two minutes over. I'm gonna do one more minutes over. I'm gonna do one more minutes over. I'm gonna do one more question from Kristoff Angelhart. How do question from Kristoff Angelhart. How do question from Kristoff Angelhart. How do you prepare financially or otherwise for you prepare financially or otherwise for you prepare financially or otherwise for your retirement? It's a good question.

your retirement? It's a good question. your retirement? It's a good question. I've I I like personal finance. I'm a I've I I like personal finance. I'm a I've I I like personal finance. I'm a bit of a nerd with the stuff. So, before bit of a nerd with the stuff. So, before bit of a nerd with the stuff. So, before I had sold Drip, I had sold Drip, I had sold Drip, um we um we um we uh I was contributing to retirement for uh I was contributing to retirement for uh I was contributing to retirement for most years for both Sherry and I putting most years for both Sherry and I putting most years for both Sherry and I putting them in in the US their IRA or them in in the US their IRA or them in in the US their IRA or 401ks. I did stop I will admit when at 401ks. I did stop I will admit when at 401ks. I did stop I will admit when at the worst times of drip when it was the worst times of drip when it was the worst times of drip when it was growing fast and we had cash crunches, I growing fast and we had cash crunches, I growing fast and we had cash crunches, I stopped contributing to retirement. My stopped contributing to retirement. My stopped contributing to retirement. My bet was that Drip would make enough bet was that Drip would make enough bet was that Drip would make enough money in the end, whether through an money in the end, whether through an money in the end, whether through an acquisition or whether through throwing acquisition or whether through throwing acquisition or whether through throwing off cash, that it would make up for off cash, that it would make up for off cash, that it would make up for that. The bet worked out for me. It's that. The bet worked out for me. It's that. The bet worked out for me. It's not going to work out for everyone, but not going to work out for everyone, but not going to work out for everyone, but by the time we sold Drip, I believe by the time we sold Drip, I believe by the time we sold Drip, I believe between Sher and my retirement accounts, between Sher and my retirement accounts, between Sher and my retirement accounts, we had about we had about we had about $300,000, which I was late 30s. Is that $300,000, which I was late 30s. Is that $300,000, which I was late 30s. Is that right? I might have been early 40s. I right? I might have been early 40s. I right? I might have been early 40s. I would prefer to have more by then, but I would prefer to have more by then, but I would prefer to have more by then, but I did when I looked at compounding and how did when I looked at compounding and how did when I looked at compounding and how it was growing, we would have had, you it was growing, we would have had, you it was growing, we would have had, you know, I'd say a couple million bucks know, I'd say a couple million bucks know, I'd say a couple million bucks when we retired, but I also counted on when we retired, but I also counted on when we retired, but I also counted on having a lot more earnings and being having a lot more earnings and being having a lot more earnings and being able to put money in. So, for me, it's able to put money in. So, for me, it's able to put money in. So, for me, it's about saving early. I started about saving early. I started about saving early. I started contributing right out of college. In contributing right out of college. In contributing right out of college. In fact, if you can do anything for your fact, if you can do anything for your fact, if you can do anything for your kids or nephews or whatever, um kids or nephews or whatever, um kids or nephews or whatever, um especially I I'll comment on the US cuz especially I I'll comment on the US cuz especially I I'll comment on the US cuz I know the retirement system here, but I know the retirement system here, but I know the retirement system here, but if there is a a retire um a tax shielded if there is a a retire um a tax shielded if there is a a retire um a tax shielded retirement account like an individual retirement account like an individual retirement account like an individual retirement account called an IRA here, retirement account called an IRA here, retirement account called an IRA here, as soon as your kids get any as soon as your kids get any as soon as your kids get any income, match what they make, give and income, match what they make, give and income, match what they make, give and put the money, you can put up to $5,500 put the money, you can put up to $5,500 put the money, you can put up to $5,500 as of this taping into a retirement

as of this taping into a retirement as of this taping into a retirement account. If you can put it in when account. If you can put it in when account. If you can put it in when they're 15 or 16, compound interest is they're 15 or 16, compound interest is they're 15 or 16, compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. I the eighth wonder of the world. I the eighth wonder of the world. I believe Albert Einstein said that. And believe Albert Einstein said that. And believe Albert Einstein said that. And so the earlier you get, if you invest at so the earlier you get, if you invest at so the earlier you get, if you invest at 15 versus 30, you get two more doublings 15 versus 30, you get two more doublings 15 versus 30, you get two more doublings of that if you invest in the stock of that if you invest in the stock of that if you invest in the stock market. So put it all in high-risisk market. So put it all in high-risisk market. So put it all in high-risisk stuff, I would be 100% in stocks. And if stuff, I would be 100% in stocks. And if stuff, I would be 100% in stocks. And if you're making 8% per year, then it's you're making 8% per year, then it's you're making 8% per year, then it's going to double every nine years. If you going to double every nine years. If you going to double every nine years. If you make 9% per year, it's going to double make 9% per year, it's going to double make 9% per year, it's going to double every eight years. So from 15 to 30, you every eight years. So from 15 to 30, you every eight years. So from 15 to 30, you get almost two doubles of that. So if get almost two doubles of that. So if get almost two doubles of that. So if you put in five grand, it becomes 10 you put in five grand, it becomes 10 you put in five grand, it becomes 10 grand, then 20 grand by the time they're grand, then 20 grand by the time they're grand, then 20 grand by the time they're 30. So if you don't contribute, if they 30. So if you don't contribute, if they 30. So if you don't contribute, if they don't contribute till they're 30, they don't contribute till they're 30, they don't contribute till they're 30, they have to contribute $20,000 to have the have to contribute $20,000 to have the have to contribute $20,000 to have the same impact that you do, you know, when same impact that you do, you know, when same impact that you do, you know, when they're when they're that young. they're when they're that young. they're when they're that young. Earlier, you can contribute. I mean, Earlier, you can contribute. I mean, Earlier, you can contribute. I mean, that's I started putting money in when I that's I started putting money in when I that's I started putting money in when I was uh 22 and just a little bit. I was uh 22 and just a little bit. I was uh 22 and just a little bit. I didn't have much money. I wasn't making didn't have much money. I wasn't making didn't have much money. I wasn't making much. I make 15 17 bucks out of college much. I make 15 17 bucks out of college much. I make 15 17 bucks out of college uh per hour. Um and that but I started uh per hour. Um and that but I started uh per hour. Um and that but I started putting 50 bucks, 100 bucks a month away putting 50 bucks, 100 bucks a month away putting 50 bucks, 100 bucks a month away as early as I possibly could. So that as early as I possibly could. So that as early as I possibly could. So that Yeah, man. Thanks so much for joining me Yeah, man. Thanks so much for joining me Yeah, man. Thanks so much for joining me today. That is going to wrap us up.

today. That is going to wrap us up. today. That is going to wrap us up. Thanks for hanging out with me a little Thanks for hanging out with me a little Thanks for hanging out with me a little longer. Last joke. Can you imagine if longer. Last joke. Can you imagine if longer. Last joke. Can you imagine if one day Microsoft acquired Microsoft? one day Microsoft acquired Microsoft? one day Microsoft acquired Microsoft? Oo, that was a misspoke. Can you imagine Oo, that was a misspoke. Can you imagine Oo, that was a misspoke. Can you imagine if one day Microsoft acquired Weiwork if one day Microsoft acquired Weiwork if one day Microsoft acquired Weiwork and named it Microsoft Office? Boom. So, and named it Microsoft Office? Boom. So, and named it Microsoft Office? Boom. So, uh, we do have some special podcasting uh, we do have some special podcasting uh, we do have some special podcasting stuff coming up soon. We're going to stuff coming up soon. We're going to stuff coming up soon. We're going to have some voting and some nominations. have some voting and some nominations. have some voting and some nominations. I'm teasing that, so keep your eye out. I'm teasing that, so keep your eye out. I'm teasing that, so keep your eye out. microconf.com. And thank you as always microconf.com. And thank you as always microconf.com. And thank you as always to Hey and Stripe for supporting Micro to Hey and Stripe for supporting Micro to Hey and Stripe for supporting Micro for their headlines partners for the for their headlines partners for the for their headlines partners for the year. And we uh love working with them. year. And we uh love working with them. year. And we uh love working with them. Thanks for joining me. I'll see you next Thanks for joining me. I'll see you next Thanks for joining me. I'll see you next week.