MicroConf On Air with Steli Efti, Founder of Close

and we are live and we are live welcome to today's episode of microcomp welcome to today's episode of microcomp welcome to today's episode of microcomp on air as always i'm your host rob on air as always i'm your host rob on air as always i'm your host rob walling walling walling so every couple wednesdays a couple so every couple wednesdays a couple so every couple wednesdays a couple wednesdays a month wednesdays a month wednesdays a month at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m pacific we live at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m pacific we live at 1 pm eastern 10 a.m pacific we live stream for 30 minutes and we cover stream for 30 minutes and we cover stream for 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing topics related to building and growing topics related to building and growing ambitious sas startups ambitious sas startups ambitious sas startups that bring us freedom and purpose and that bring us freedom and purpose and that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy allow us to value and maintain healthy allow us to value and maintain healthy relationships relationships relationships we believe that showing up every day and we believe that showing up every day and we believe that showing up every day and shipping that next feature shipping that next feature shipping that next feature that next piece of marketing copy or that next piece of marketing copy or that next piece of marketing copy or closing that next sale closing that next sale closing that next sale is the way to build a sustainable is the way to build a sustainable is the way to build a sustainable company thanks for company thanks for company thanks for joining me again it's been a few weeks joining me again it's been a few weeks joining me again it's been a few weeks since our last episode since our last episode since our last episode um we had one back at the beginning of um we had one back at the beginning of um we had one back at the beginning of january january january talking about our sas podcast awards and talking about our sas podcast awards and talking about our sas podcast awards and uh if you missed that one it was it was uh if you missed that one it was it was uh if you missed that one it was it was pretty fun you can check it out on pretty fun you can check it out on pretty fun you can check it out on youtube youtube.com youtube youtube.com youtube youtube.com microconf be sure to subscribe there microconf be sure to subscribe there microconf be sure to subscribe there today i'm really excited to have a guest today i'm really excited to have a guest today i'm really excited to have a guest back on the show is what i'm going to back on the show is what i'm going to back on the show is what i'm going to say i don't recall if steli has been on say i don't recall if steli has been on say i don't recall if steli has been on microcomp on air before or microcomp on air before or microcomp on air before or um if he's just been on startups for the um if he's just been on startups for the um if he's just been on startups for the rest of us i know he's been on two or rest of us i know he's been on two or rest of us i know he's been on two or three three three episodes of that over the years so if episodes of that over the years so if episodes of that over the years so if you haven't heard of you haven't heard of you haven't heard of steli fd he's the co-founder of steli fd he's the co-founder of steli fd he's the co-founder of cloze.com cloze.com cloze.com so they're at close cl os e uh so they're at close cl os e uh so they're at close cl os e uh on twitter and closed.com on the on twitter and closed.com on the on twitter and closed.com on the internet they are internet they are internet they are sales enablement software their crm sales enablement software their crm sales enablement software their crm software and they've been around software and they've been around software and they've been around most they're actually a mostly bootstrap most they're actually a mostly bootstrap most they're actually a mostly bootstrap company they raised a small round of company they raised a small round of company they raised a small round of funding funding funding back in the day and they have since run back in the day and they have since run back in the day and they have since run it it it more like a profitable business more like a profitable business more like a profitable business and you know steli is known for his and you know steli is known for his and you know steli is known for his reputation

reputation reputation as a sales leader a sales uh as a sales leader a sales uh as a sales leader a sales uh advisor he does a lot of talks he's done advisor he does a lot of talks he's done advisor he does a lot of talks he's done a number of highly rated talks a number of highly rated talks a number of highly rated talks at microconf over the years and i'm at microconf over the years and i'm at microconf over the years and i'm really excited to dive in really excited to dive in really excited to dive in to your questions with him today if you to your questions with him today if you to your questions with him today if you have have have any questions so now i'm just seeing the any questions so now i'm just seeing the any questions so now i'm just seeing the lower third lower third lower third where xander has called me bob rawling where xander has called me bob rawling where xander has called me bob rawling um um um i appreciate that xander so that there's i appreciate that xander so that there's i appreciate that xander so that there's a little story there someone mentioned a little story there someone mentioned a little story there someone mentioned me me me and i it was a it was a like a roll up and i it was a it was a like a roll up and i it was a it was a like a roll up of marketing advice and they put my name of marketing advice and they put my name of marketing advice and they put my name as bob rawling and so i'm never going to as bob rawling and so i'm never going to as bob rawling and so i'm never going to live that one down live that one down live that one down but steli um you know obviously known but steli um you know obviously known but steli um you know obviously known literally around the the startup literally around the the startup literally around the the startup world in the entire world as as such a world in the entire world as as such a world in the entire world as as such a sales leader sales leader sales leader that it's great to have him on here if that it's great to have him on here if that it's great to have him on here if you have any questions about you have any questions about you have any questions about sales really anything across that um sales really anything across that um sales really anything across that um it's in his wheelhouse and you know per it's in his wheelhouse and you know per it's in his wheelhouse and you know per his usual i'm sure today he will his usual i'm sure today he will his usual i'm sure today he will be giving you uh all the books he's be giving you uh all the books he's be giving you uh all the books he's written over the years he has tons of written over the years he has tons of written over the years he has tons of books on sales that he and his team have books on sales that he and his team have books on sales that he and his team have put together um so with that put together um so with that put together um so with that let's welcome mr steli efti to the show let's welcome mr steli efti to the show let's welcome mr steli efti to the show hey bob uh it's a great pleasure to be hey bob uh it's a great pleasure to be hey bob uh it's a great pleasure to be on this show on this show on this show so embarrassing that's so great i'll so embarrassing that's so great i'll so embarrassing that's so great i'll never never never i'll never forget that i was like bob i'll never forget that i was like bob i'll never forget that i was like bob rolly rolly rolly what is this yeah did rob change his what is this yeah did rob change his what is this yeah did rob change his name name name yeah i mean uh i've never been on yeah i mean uh i've never been on yeah i mean uh i've never been on air i think i've been on the startup for air i think i've been on the startup for air i think i've been on the startup for the rest of us a number of times and the rest of us a number of times and the rest of us a number of times and then obviously then obviously then obviously microcom for a number of times but this microcom for a number of times but this microcom for a number of times but this is uh this is an on-air premiere is uh this is an on-air premiere is uh this is an on-air premiere so i'm super excited excellent and so in so i'm super excited excellent and so in so i'm super excited excellent and so in the audience you are witnessing that so

the audience you are witnessing that so the audience you are witnessing that so be sure to um be sure to um be sure to um get your questions into the slack get your questions into the slack get your questions into the slack microkoff connect we now have more than microkoff connect we now have more than microkoff connect we now have more than 1300 1300 1300 founders and aspiring founders if you're founders and aspiring founders if you're founders and aspiring founders if you're not there head to microcomconnect.com to not there head to microcomconnect.com to not there head to microcomconnect.com to sign up sign up sign up but if you're in there go to the but if you're in there go to the but if you're in there go to the microconf on air channel and microconf on air channel and microconf on air channel and you can post any questions for us i have you can post any questions for us i have you can post any questions for us i have a question a question a question that i received from a startup to the that i received from a startup to the that i received from a startup to the rest of us listener and it's about sales rest of us listener and it's about sales rest of us listener and it's about sales so i wanted to kick us off today to kind so i wanted to kick us off today to kind so i wanted to kick us off today to kind of seed the program of seed the program of seed the program and then we'll go from there with and then we'll go from there with and then we'll go from there with listener questions so all right so this listener questions so all right so this listener questions so all right so this listener says listener says listener says i've been running a kids sports business i've been running a kids sports business i've been running a kids sports business for the last 10 years with another for the last 10 years with another for the last 10 years with another partner partner partner that has been mostly running by itself that has been mostly running by itself that has been mostly running by itself for the last two years for the last two years for the last two years i'm not i don't know if that context is i'm not i don't know if that context is i'm not i don't know if that context is helpful or not but a few questions for helpful or not but a few questions for helpful or not but a few questions for you you you the question about sales is any tips on the question about sales is any tips on the question about sales is any tips on how i can use to my advantage the fact how i can use to my advantage the fact how i can use to my advantage the fact that i am a client that i am a client that i am a client as well as a co-founder in marketing as well as a co-founder in marketing as well as a co-founder in marketing sales or during onboarding calls sales or during onboarding calls sales or during onboarding calls so he runs a kids sports business and so he runs a kids sports business and so he runs a kids sports business and then he's building software then he's building software then he's building software for people who who run kids sports for people who who run kids sports for people who who run kids sports businesses and i believe these i don't businesses and i believe these i don't businesses and i believe these i don't know if these are leagues know if these are leagues know if these are leagues if it's league management software or if it's league management software or if it's league management software or what exactly it is probably not that what exactly it is probably not that what exactly it is probably not that relevant his real question is relevant his real question is relevant his real question is how can i use the fact that i am both how can i use the fact that i am both how can i use the fact that i am both the salesperson the salesperson the salesperson and i also am a an end user you know a and i also am a an end user you know a and i also am a an end user you know a customer of it customer of it customer of it and he says i have had extensive success and he says i have had extensive success and he says i have had extensive success in marketing and sales in the sports and in marketing and sales in the sports and in marketing and sales in the sports and leisure industry leisure industry leisure industry selling uh an in-person service in the selling uh an in-person service in the selling uh an in-person service in the b2b b2b b2b space so let's start with that he has a space so let's start with that he has a space so let's start with that he has a follow-up question but i'm curious follow-up question but i'm curious follow-up question but i'm curious steli have you you know i guess you steli have you you know i guess you steli have you you know i guess you experienced this yourself probably when experienced this yourself probably when experienced this yourself probably when you were back selling clothes because you were back selling clothes because you were back selling clothes because you were both you were both you were both not only a customer but a salesperson of not only a customer but a salesperson of not only a customer but a salesperson of it um it um it um what are your thoughts here yeah i think

what are your thoughts here yeah i think what are your thoughts here yeah i think well the answer is clearly yes well the answer is clearly yes well the answer is clearly yes uh you can use it to your advantage that uh you can use it to your advantage that uh you can use it to your advantage that you're the founder you're the founder you're the founder selling the product for a number of selling the product for a number of selling the product for a number of simple reasons simple reasons simple reasons number one we all like to talk to people number one we all like to talk to people number one we all like to talk to people with authority with authority with authority we all like to talk to people that can we all like to talk to people that can we all like to talk to people that can make decisions that have influence make decisions that have influence make decisions that have influence and nobody has more authority and you and nobody has more authority and you and nobody has more authority and you know over know over know over your business than you as the founder your business than you as the founder your business than you as the founder right so right so right so you can't go way higher than that so you can't go way higher than that so you can't go way higher than that so customers love to get the attention of a customers love to get the attention of a customers love to get the attention of a founder founder founder for obvious reasons this is somebody for obvious reasons this is somebody for obvious reasons this is somebody that is probably more knowledgeable that is probably more knowledgeable that is probably more knowledgeable about the product about the space about the product about the space about the product about the space has more authority over the promises has more authority over the promises has more authority over the promises he or she makes and um if i want he or she makes and um if i want he or she makes and um if i want somebody to listen to me somebody to listen to me somebody to listen to me for the feedback i have to give or for for the feedback i have to give or for for the feedback i have to give or for my needs and my desires who better to my needs and my desires who better to my needs and my desires who better to talk to than one of the founders talk to than one of the founders talk to than one of the founders so um i would definitely use so um i would definitely use so um i would definitely use you know or at least realize the fact you know or at least realize the fact you know or at least realize the fact that when you offer that when you offer that when you offer to jump on a sales call or a product to jump on a sales call or a product to jump on a sales call or a product demo or demo or demo or answer a support ticket there are answer a support ticket there are answer a support ticket there are founders out there that founders out there that founders out there that are hiding the fact that they're the are hiding the fact that they're the are hiding the fact that they're the founder they feel like founder they feel like founder they feel like oh if people would know that as a oh if people would know that as a oh if people would know that as a founder i'm answering support tickets founder i'm answering support tickets founder i'm answering support tickets as a founder i'm giving a product demo as a founder i'm giving a product demo as a founder i'm giving a product demo to a trial user to a trial user to a trial user they will surely understand that my they will surely understand that my they will surely understand that my business is not massive business is not massive business is not massive and they will not want to buy from me and they will not want to buy from me and they will not want to buy from me nothing could be further from the truth nothing could be further from the truth nothing could be further from the truth people love to talk to people with people love to talk to people with people love to talk to people with authority authority authority people love to talk to the founders of a people love to talk to the founders of a people love to talk to the founders of a business so business so business so make sure to use that fact and and be make sure to use that fact and and be make sure to use that fact and and be upfront about it and not hide it upfront about it and not hide it upfront about it and not hide it and um that's about it like there's not

and um that's about it like there's not and um that's about it like there's not really much more to it really much more to it really much more to it um you don't have to like overplay this um you don't have to like overplay this um you don't have to like overplay this obviously nobody likes people bragging obviously nobody likes people bragging obviously nobody likes people bragging i don't need to hear you know you've i don't need to hear you know you've i don't need to hear you know you've been a founder many times and you're the been a founder many times and you're the been a founder many times and you're the founder of this business and where you founder of this business and where you founder of this business and where you founded it founded it founded it out of your garage all that is out of your garage all that is out of your garage all that is meaningless to me like that's not making meaningless to me like that's not making meaningless to me like that's not making my life better my life better my life better um so don't don't tell me your whole um so don't don't tell me your whole um so don't don't tell me your whole story of what it means to be a founder story of what it means to be a founder story of what it means to be a founder but um but um but um use the fact that um you know you're use the fact that um you know you're use the fact that um you know you're you're the most influential person you're the most influential person you're the most influential person probably in this business and i get probably in this business and i get probably in this business and i get to get your time and your attention and to get your time and your attention and to get your time and your attention and that's probably going to be something that's probably going to be something that's probably going to be something that most people will be excited about that most people will be excited about that most people will be excited about i like it i can i can chime in too with i like it i can i can chime in too with i like it i can i can chime in too with you know you know you know in very early days when i was doing drip in very early days when i was doing drip in very early days when i was doing drip sales calls still before we we hired sales calls still before we we hired sales calls still before we we hired someone to take those over someone to take those over someone to take those over um i would use my um i would use my um i would use my i would definitely use the the influence i would definitely use the the influence i would definitely use the the influence i had as a founder but also i had as a founder but also i had as a founder but also as an end user i would when i was as an end user i would when i was as an end user i would when i was walking him through on a demo i would walking him through on a demo i would walking him through on a demo i would say you know say you know say you know on my um on my other product we do we on my um on my other product we do we on my um on my other product we do we use use use i love this feature and this is why we i love this feature and this is why we i love this feature and this is why we built it and this is like a great way to built it and this is like a great way to built it and this is like a great way to for a sas app to blah blah so i would for a sas app to blah blah so i would for a sas app to blah blah so i would you know assuming the person was also you know assuming the person was also you know assuming the person was also running a sass app that was similar it running a sass app that was similar it running a sass app that was similar it was like a way that i could was like a way that i could was like a way that i could connect with them and show them that i'm connect with them and show them that i'm connect with them and show them that i'm kind of in the same boat and i may be kind of in the same boat and i may be kind of in the same boat and i may be less of a sales person than almost a less of a sales person than almost a less of a sales person than almost a colleague you know or colleague you know or colleague you know or like a comrade like a friend in arms like a comrade like a friend in arms like a comrade like a friend in arms who's also trying to grow his business who's also trying to grow his business who's also trying to grow his business using this tool and oh i happen to be using this tool and oh i happen to be using this tool and oh i happen to be the founder and i'm selling it the founder and i'm selling it the founder and i'm selling it but it worked out usually worked out but it worked out usually worked out but it worked out usually worked out pretty well all right let me see our next question

all right let me see our next question here here here it's an interesting one if you were to it's an interesting one if you were to it's an interesting one if you were to start a crm system today from scratch start a crm system today from scratch start a crm system today from scratch how would you try to launch and build it how would you try to launch and build it how would you try to launch and build it up in today's world up in today's world up in today's world this is from max sinclair a big fan and this is from max sinclair a big fan and this is from max sinclair a big fan and a user of clothes a user of clothes a user of clothes yeah what are we are you trying to give yeah what are we are you trying to give yeah what are we are you trying to give them advice on how to start a competitor them advice on how to start a competitor them advice on how to start a competitor is that what we're looking for i'm is that what we're looking for i'm is that what we're looking for i'm curious oh no wait curious oh no wait curious oh no wait yeah it's crm xander not not cms so the yeah it's crm xander not not cms so the yeah it's crm xander not not cms so the lower third is wrong but lower third is wrong but lower third is wrong but i i'm less about building well i am i i'm less about building well i am i i'm less about building well i am curious there's two there's two things curious there's two there's two things curious there's two there's two things right once you once your software you right once you once your software you right once you once your software you get five six seven years old get five six seven years old get five six seven years old there's tends to be something in it there's tends to be something in it there's tends to be something in it where you're like oh i wish we hadn't where you're like oh i wish we hadn't where you're like oh i wish we hadn't made that made that made that decision and it's really hard to fix now decision and it's really hard to fix now decision and it's really hard to fix now so i think i'll couch it as like is so i think i'll couch it as like is so i think i'll couch it as like is there any big thing or one thing in there any big thing or one thing in there any big thing or one thing in closing you wish you could change it closing you wish you could change it closing you wish you could change it maybe technically is pretty hard maybe technically is pretty hard maybe technically is pretty hard and then two if you were to launch into and then two if you were to launch into and then two if you were to launch into a crowded space like crm today a crowded space like crm today a crowded space like crm today or or an esp space or you know there's or or an esp space or you know there's or or an esp space or you know there's all these spaces that are really crowded all these spaces that are really crowded all these spaces that are really crowded how would you how would you go about how would you how would you go about how would you how would you go about doing it let's phrase those the doing it let's phrase those the doing it let's phrase those the questions like that questions like that questions like that yeah so i'll address the the second one yeah so i'll address the the second one yeah so i'll address the the second one first because many many times first because many many times first because many many times i've told people and i've thought about i've told people and i've thought about i've told people and i've thought about this that if we this that if we this that if we had if we wanted to launch close today had if we wanted to launch close today had if we wanted to launch close today the way that we launched it in january the way that we launched it in january the way that we launched it in january 2013 2013 2013 i don't think it would have gone that i don't think it would have gone that i don't think it would have gone that well like you know we had well like you know we had well like you know we had you know back in january 2013 there were you know back in january 2013 there were you know back in january 2013 there were a lot of things that were different in a lot of things that were different in a lot of things that were different in the world the world the world one for us especially one sales was one for us especially one sales was one for us especially one sales was really really really an underdeveloped area in the startup an underdeveloped area in the startup an underdeveloped area in the startup world worldwide like world worldwide like world worldwide like there was a a a prevalent culture in there was a a a prevalent culture in there was a a a prevalent culture in silicon valley that was like silicon valley that was like silicon valley that was like you know the future of b2b will not

you know the future of b2b will not you know the future of b2b will not include any sales people anything include any sales people anything include any sales people anything related to sales related to sales related to sales everything will just be self-serve everything will just be self-serve everything will just be self-serve bottom up bottom up bottom up and so don't don't worry about sales and so don't don't worry about sales and so don't don't worry about sales just worry about marketing and virality just worry about marketing and virality just worry about marketing and virality and and and and all that stuff and so there were not and all that stuff and so there were not and all that stuff and so there were not there was very little content around there was very little content around there was very little content around sales for software and for startups sales for software and for startups sales for software and for startups especially content that was like especially content that was like especially content that was like not super outdated from the 80s you know not super outdated from the 80s you know not super outdated from the 80s you know and and and um and so we we launched clothes from um and so we we launched clothes from um and so we we launched clothes from from a marketing perspective a go to from a marketing perspective a go to from a marketing perspective a go to market perspective by market perspective by market perspective by teaching a space um a skill set and an teaching a space um a skill set and an teaching a space um a skill set and an approach and a philosophy around selling approach and a philosophy around selling approach and a philosophy around selling that nobody else had like attacked so we that nobody else had like attacked so we that nobody else had like attacked so we got got got a huge amount of audience right off the a huge amount of audience right off the a huge amount of audience right off the bat a lot of traffic to our articles and bat a lot of traffic to our articles and bat a lot of traffic to our articles and authority we became an authority pretty authority we became an authority pretty authority we became an authority pretty quickly as like quickly as like quickly as like if you want to learn anything about if you want to learn anything about if you want to learn anything about sales go to the close people like they sales go to the close people like they sales go to the close people like they know what they're talking about and they know what they're talking about and they know what they're talking about and they have good stuff around that have good stuff around that have good stuff around that obviously we created a monster in that obviously we created a monster in that obviously we created a monster in that we changed the culture like we're a part we changed the culture like we're a part we changed the culture like we're a part of changing the culture and educating of changing the culture and educating of changing the culture and educating the world of software on selling the world of software on selling the world of software on selling but also there's been such an explosion but also there's been such an explosion but also there's been such an explosion of content around this that today of content around this that today of content around this that today if you wanted to do the same thing it'd if you wanted to do the same thing it'd if you wanted to do the same thing it'd be much more difficult be much more difficult be much more difficult right um much more difficult to actually right um much more difficult to actually right um much more difficult to actually stand out stand out stand out in almost any field i would assume just in almost any field i would assume just in almost any field i would assume just the content ramp up in the last 10 years the content ramp up in the last 10 years the content ramp up in the last 10 years has been so dramatic it's has been so dramatic it's has been so dramatic it's more difficult to stand out than it used more difficult to stand out than it used more difficult to stand out than it used to be to be to be um and then there's a million other um and then there's a million other um and then there's a million other things that we were kind of lucky and things that we were kind of lucky and things that we were kind of lucky and unique about our timing and everything unique about our timing and everything unique about our timing and everything that that today would be hard to that that today would be hard to that that today would be hard to replicate but the replicate but the replicate but the the basic principles if you take away

the basic principles if you take away the basic principles if you take away the actual playbook that we used the actual playbook that we used the actual playbook that we used you know step by step we take the you know step by step we take the you know step by step we take the the the approach that we took i think the the approach that we took i think the the approach that we took i think that approach will always work which was that approach will always work which was that approach will always work which was we built something for ourselves with a we built something for ourselves with a we built something for ourselves with a very differentiated perspective very differentiated perspective very differentiated perspective on who the user was what their problem on who the user was what their problem on who the user was what their problem was and how to solve that problem in a was and how to solve that problem in a was and how to solve that problem in a way that's way that's way that's you know more valuable to them you know more valuable to them you know more valuable to them and then we were not afraid and then we were not afraid and then we were not afraid to be loud and distinct about to be loud and distinct about to be loud and distinct about who we are and who we aren't and who we are and who we aren't and who we are and who we aren't and we were lucky that we hit a nerve that we were lucky that we hit a nerve that we were lucky that we hit a nerve that we were right we were right we were right with these ideas you can do all this and with these ideas you can do all this and with these ideas you can do all this and if you're wrong nobody cares still right if you're wrong nobody cares still right if you're wrong nobody cares still right if like you've built something that is if like you've built something that is if like you've built something that is not doesn't have product market fit it not doesn't have product market fit it not doesn't have product market fit it doesn't matter that it's differentiated doesn't matter that it's differentiated doesn't matter that it's differentiated doesn't matter that you've niched it doesn't matter that you've niched it doesn't matter that you've niched it down it doesn't matter that you have a down it doesn't matter that you have a down it doesn't matter that you have a strong strong strong identity people still not get value from identity people still not get value from identity people still not get value from it so it won't succeed it so it won't succeed it so it won't succeed but for us we were lucky that we were but for us we were lucky that we were but for us we were lucky that we were able to hit a nerve in the space because able to hit a nerve in the space because able to hit a nerve in the space because we had unique insight about the customer we had unique insight about the customer we had unique insight about the customer the user the user the user and we developed a solution that that and we developed a solution that that and we developed a solution that that really worked in really worked in really worked in in a powerful way the other thing that in a powerful way the other thing that in a powerful way the other thing that i'll say i'll say i'll say is that we were much more direct about is that we were much more direct about is that we were much more direct about who we were but also who we weren't who we were but also who we weren't who we were but also who we weren't and i think that in a crowded space is and i think that in a crowded space is and i think that in a crowded space is really important really important really important the the tendency that most founders have the the tendency that most founders have the the tendency that most founders have is to go very broad is to go very broad is to go very broad like let's not let's not say no to like let's not let's not say no to like let's not let's not say no to anybody let's not upset anybody anybody let's not upset anybody anybody let's not upset anybody right and so when you talk to prospects right and so when you talk to prospects right and so when you talk to prospects in the early days in the early days in the early days you know they ask you well are you gonna you know they ask you well are you gonna you know they ask you well are you gonna build this in this feature and you go

build this in this feature and you go build this in this feature and you go yes yes yes and that and that feature yes and do you and that and that feature yes and do you and that and that feature yes and do you have this well not now but we're have this well not now but we're have this well not now but we're building it you just want to appease and building it you just want to appease and building it you just want to appease and please everybody please everybody please everybody and we weren't the exact other way i and we weren't the exact other way i and we weren't the exact other way i remember from day one remember from day one remember from day one like half the people that i was talking like half the people that i was talking like half the people that i was talking to that would sign up for trials to that would sign up for trials to that would sign up for trials i would tell no we're never gonna build i would tell no we're never gonna build i would tell no we're never gonna build this this this no this is not what we're gonna do i no this is not what we're gonna do i no this is not what we're gonna do i understand why do you want this feature understand why do you want this feature understand why do you want this feature because we think this is unnecessary because we think this is unnecessary because we think this is unnecessary right right right like we'd have a lot of these like like we'd have a lot of these like like we'd have a lot of these like unpleasant conversations unpleasant conversations unpleasant conversations but they always led to very strong but they always led to very strong but they always led to very strong relationships people would either relationships people would either relationships people would either understand that understand that understand that what we built isn't for them but then what we built isn't for them but then what we built isn't for them but then they would be surprised and kind of tell they would be surprised and kind of tell they would be surprised and kind of tell other people about our honesty other people about our honesty other people about our honesty and our approach or very often to my and our approach or very often to my and our approach or very often to my surprise surprise surprise people would cave and go you know what i people would cave and go you know what i people would cave and go you know what i don't need all these things anyways like don't need all these things anyways like don't need all these things anyways like i don't really care about them i don't really care about them i don't really care about them and what you're building is valuable and what you're building is valuable and what you're building is valuable enough i'm gonna buy it anyways enough i'm gonna buy it anyways enough i'm gonna buy it anyways um so i think especially when you're in um so i think especially when you're in um so i think especially when you're in a crowded space a crowded space a crowded space you don't wanna pretend that you're you don't wanna pretend that you're you don't wanna pretend that you're everything to everybody you really wanna everything to everybody you really wanna everything to everybody you really wanna be courageous enough and honest enough be courageous enough and honest enough be courageous enough and honest enough to say no a lot and to to say no a lot and to to say no a lot and to say what you are but also what you say what you are but also what you say what you are but also what you aren't in terms of aren't in terms of aren't in terms of what i wish we would have done what i wish we would have done what i wish we would have done differently from a technological point differently from a technological point differently from a technological point of view of view of view or feature point of view i mean there's or feature point of view i mean there's or feature point of view i mean there's many things i think many things i think many things i think a lot of it a lot of the things a lot of it a lot of the things a lot of it a lot of the things we have painfully corrected over the we have painfully corrected over the we have painfully corrected over the past couple of years so there's nothing past couple of years so there's nothing past couple of years so there's nothing that stands out right now but i'll tell that stands out right now but i'll tell that stands out right now but i'll tell you you you one of the biggest wastes of development one of the biggest wastes of development one of the biggest wastes of development that we've made that we've made that we've made was where we we went through a sprint in was where we we went through a sprint in was where we we went through a sprint in i don't know when it was 2016 maybe

i don't know when it was 2016 maybe i don't know when it was 2016 maybe um where we wanted to significantly um where we wanted to significantly um where we wanted to significantly improve our reporting improve our reporting improve our reporting and so for one and a half years we had and so for one and a half years we had and so for one and a half years we had all these reporting features that we had all these reporting features that we had all these reporting features that we had built built built and i just wish we would have and i just wish we would have and i just wish we would have instead that was the only time in our instead that was the only time in our instead that was the only time in our product development where we just product development where we just product development where we just looked around the space and we said said looked around the space and we said said looked around the space and we said said what are customers saying they want and what are customers saying they want and what are customers saying they want and what is everybody else doing let's just what is everybody else doing let's just what is everybody else doing let's just do that do that do that versus asking ourselves what fits into versus asking ourselves what fits into versus asking ourselves what fits into our product philosophy our product philosophy our product philosophy what is our unique take on this like what is our unique take on this like what is our unique take on this like what kind of reporting do we want to what kind of reporting do we want to what kind of reporting do we want to have have have and what do we think is about and what do we think is about and what do we think is about reporting that we're not just gonna copy reporting that we're not just gonna copy reporting that we're not just gonna copy we didn't that was the one time we we didn't that was the one time we we didn't that was the one time we weren't as mindful and as present weren't as mindful and as present weren't as mindful and as present in our decision making and we ended up in our decision making and we ended up in our decision making and we ended up building a bunch of things back then building a bunch of things back then building a bunch of things back then that we hated that we hated that we hated ourselves and that we were embarrassed ourselves and that we were embarrassed ourselves and that we were embarrassed about and that then we had to painfully about and that then we had to painfully about and that then we had to painfully redo redo redo to make them really great uh so it's to make them really great uh so it's to make them really great uh so it's that that that it's easier than you think to um it's easier than you think to um it's easier than you think to um to go down the wrong road if you're not to go down the wrong road if you're not to go down the wrong road if you're not really really present and mindful and really really present and mindful and really really present and mindful and thoughtful about things and then thoughtful about things and then thoughtful about things and then you waste so much time in product you waste so much time in product you waste so much time in product development i wish we had development i wish we had development i wish we had we hadn't made that mistake but what can we hadn't made that mistake but what can we hadn't made that mistake but what can you do you do you do yeah i find that that founders who don't yeah i find that that founders who don't yeah i find that that founders who don't have a vision have a vision have a vision and an opinion about their own software and an opinion about their own software and an opinion about their own software and and and take this listen to the and and and take this listen to the and and and take this listen to the customer thing customer thing customer thing too far they build big pieces of too far they build big pieces of too far they build big pieces of you know it's just an amalgam of you know it's just an amalgam of you know it's just an amalgam of features and all types of stuff and features and all types of stuff and features and all types of stuff and you know and to give you examples of

you know and to give you examples of you know and to give you examples of like i think of salesforce like i think of salesforce like i think of salesforce i often think of you know an app called i often think of you know an app called i often think of you know an app called infusionsoft and if you use those apps infusionsoft and if you use those apps infusionsoft and if you use those apps they're just they're just they're just rough i mean i know they're powerful rough i mean i know they're powerful rough i mean i know they're powerful they can do a lot of things they can do a lot of things they can do a lot of things um and and those are big companies so um and and those are big companies so um and and those are big companies so you could say well you could say well you could say well didn't they do something right it's like didn't they do something right it's like didn't they do something right it's like yeah but they also went into yeah but they also went into yeah but they also went into they got in the markets really early they got in the markets really early they got in the markets really early they raised enormous amounts of money they raised enormous amounts of money they raised enormous amounts of money you're probably if you're watching this you're probably if you're watching this you're probably if you're watching this you're probably not in that space you're you're probably not in that space you're you're probably not in that space you're probably bootstrapped or mostly probably bootstrapped or mostly probably bootstrapped or mostly bootstrapped with small amount of bootstrapped with small amount of bootstrapped with small amount of funding scrappy team funding scrappy team funding scrappy team and part of what you're saying is having and part of what you're saying is having and part of what you're saying is having that opinion that opinion that opinion and even you know like you said instead and even you know like you said instead and even you know like you said instead of going broad it's an opinion of the of going broad it's an opinion of the of going broad it's an opinion of the what the product should and a vision of what the product should and a vision of what the product should and a vision of what the product should be what the product should be what the product should be and then also being outspoken about that and then also being outspoken about that and then also being outspoken about that on your home page on your home page on your home page or on in your marketing material or in or on in your marketing material or in or on in your marketing material or in your sales calls um your sales calls um your sales calls um it's positioning it's like no we're not it's positioning it's like no we're not it's positioning it's like no we're not going to be this whole thing we're not going to be this whole thing we're not going to be this whole thing we're not going to head going to head going to head head you know uh head on head um head to head you know uh head on head um head to head you know uh head on head um head to head head head connect to or compete with salesforce we connect to or compete with salesforce we connect to or compete with salesforce we are gonna go over in this corner here are gonna go over in this corner here are gonna go over in this corner here and if you don't like these things about and if you don't like these things about and if you don't like these things about salesforce or about any other you know salesforce or about any other you know salesforce or about any other you know insert xyz that's we're the tool for you insert xyz that's we're the tool for you insert xyz that's we're the tool for you and maybe that market is only and maybe that market is only and maybe that market is only maybe it's only a million dollar market maybe it's only a million dollar market maybe it's only a million dollar market today or a three million dollar market today or a three million dollar market today or a three million dollar market it's small but hey your bootstrap mostly it's small but hey your bootstrap mostly it's small but hey your bootstrap mostly bootstrap get there bootstrap get there bootstrap get there then figure out where do i go next then figure out where do i go next then figure out where do i go next because then the doors will open right because then the doors will open right because then the doors will open right you'll start to see oh there's these you'll start to see oh there's these you'll start to see oh there's these edges there's these new things that are edges there's these new things that are edges there's these new things that are coming around we can add right coming around we can add right coming around we can add right that's i think that's yeah is that in that's i think that's yeah is that in that's i think that's yeah is that in line with what you're saying line with what you're saying line with what you're saying yeah absolutely amen all right yeah absolutely amen all right yeah absolutely amen all right uh james kennedy asks uh james kennedy uh james kennedy asks uh james kennedy uh james kennedy asks uh james kennedy is a microcomb speaker many time is a microcomb speaker many time is a microcomb speaker many time microcompetently he says microcompetently he says microcompetently he says how do you know when to put a fork in a

how do you know when to put a fork in a how do you know when to put a fork in a cold cold cold outreach campaign and i think he's outreach campaign and i think he's outreach campaign and i think he's saying how do you know when to call it saying how do you know when to call it saying how do you know when to call it done right rather than an actual i was done right rather than an actual i was done right rather than an actual i was thinking of a programming fork but thinking of a programming fork but thinking of a programming fork but it was how do you know when to kill to it was how do you know when to kill to it was how do you know when to kill to kill a cold outreach campaign i think he kill a cold outreach campaign i think he kill a cold outreach campaign i think he asked asked asked yeah yeah that's a good question um and yeah yeah that's a good question um and yeah yeah that's a good question um and as as as always it depends but to give you maybe always it depends but to give you maybe always it depends but to give you maybe some food for thought i would say that some food for thought i would say that some food for thought i would say that you know that you have to think about a you know that you have to think about a you know that you have to think about a sales approach sales approach sales approach or sales model just like you would think or sales model just like you would think or sales model just like you would think uh about a product uh about a product uh about a product in the early days the goal really in the early days the goal really in the early days the goal really shouldn't be shouldn't be shouldn't be to get to instant success the goal to get to instant success the goal to get to instant success the goal really should be to generate really should be to generate really should be to generate insights that then you can feed into insights that then you can feed into insights that then you can feed into iterating improving or changing the way iterating improving or changing the way iterating improving or changing the way you sell or the way you reach out to you sell or the way you reach out to you sell or the way you reach out to people people people the way that you you know prospect or the way that you you know prospect or the way that you you know prospect or whatever it is that you're trying to whatever it is that you're trying to whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish accomplish accomplish so i would say that um so i would say that um so i would say that um you know let's say we're doing a cold you know let's say we're doing a cold you know let's say we're doing a cold outreach campaign let's say it's an outreach campaign let's say it's an outreach campaign let's say it's an email campaign right i'm sending cold email campaign right i'm sending cold email campaign right i'm sending cold emails emails emails my i've always taught founders to do my i've always taught founders to do my i've always taught founders to do less volume but more hands-on quality less volume but more hands-on quality less volume but more hands-on quality and to go step by step the first thing and to go step by step the first thing and to go step by step the first thing that i'm trying to do that i'm trying to do that i'm trying to do is to see can i find the right people is to see can i find the right people is to see can i find the right people to reach out to in the first place how to reach out to in the first place how to reach out to in the first place how do i know that well maybe a first sign do i know that well maybe a first sign do i know that well maybe a first sign for that for that for that is can i get people to open the email is can i get people to open the email is can i get people to open the email that i'm sending that i'm sending that i'm sending right and because if i if i if i'm right and because if i if i if i'm right and because if i if i if i'm not able to accomplish that every other not able to accomplish that every other not able to accomplish that every other step afterwards will never work step afterwards will never work step afterwards will never work right if nobody opens the email it

right if nobody opens the email it right if nobody opens the email it doesn't matter how much i improve the doesn't matter how much i improve the doesn't matter how much i improve the graphics of the pdfs i attach graphics of the pdfs i attach graphics of the pdfs i attach nobody's ever gonna look at it so nobody's ever gonna look at it so nobody's ever gonna look at it so the first thing that i'll try to do is the first thing that i'll try to do is the first thing that i'll try to do is how can i get people to open the email how can i get people to open the email how can i get people to open the email now let's say now let's say now let's say nobody's opening the email or very few nobody's opening the email or very few nobody's opening the email or very few people are opening the email people are opening the email people are opening the email my next approach would be well let's my next approach would be well let's my next approach would be well let's find out why find out why find out why right there's a number of reasons why right there's a number of reasons why right there's a number of reasons why this is happening it could be this is happening it could be this is happening it could be that we have the wrong email address it that we have the wrong email address it that we have the wrong email address it could be that we're sending it to the could be that we're sending it to the could be that we're sending it to the wrong time wrong time wrong time more likely the subject line sucks more likely the subject line sucks more likely the subject line sucks there's something here that we need to there's something here that we need to there's something here that we need to find out find out find out so oftentimes we would call so oftentimes we would call so oftentimes we would call people that didn't open the email people that didn't open the email people that didn't open the email not to now sell them on the product but not to now sell them on the product but not to now sell them on the product but to find out why to find out why to find out why right and we would just give a call and right and we would just give a call and right and we would just give a call and tell people hey you know rob tell people hey you know rob tell people hey you know rob i sent you an email yesterday about xyz i sent you an email yesterday about xyz i sent you an email yesterday about xyz you're probably busy you're probably busy you're probably busy you've not seen it i just need as a you've not seen it i just need as a you've not seen it i just need as a founder i just need one minute of advice founder i just need one minute of advice founder i just need one minute of advice here i'll let you here i'll let you here i'll let you go on with your day did you see the go on with your day did you see the go on with your day did you see the email and thought email and thought email and thought this was not relevant for you so you this was not relevant for you so you this was not relevant for you so you never even bothered to open it or did never even bothered to open it or did never even bothered to open it or did you open it and thought you hated it can you open it and thought you hated it can you open it and thought you hated it can you just give me a little bit of advice you just give me a little bit of advice you just give me a little bit of advice i'm struggling here i'm trying i'm struggling here i'm trying i'm struggling here i'm trying to make this work what about the email to make this work what about the email to make this work what about the email that i sent you yesterday that i sent you yesterday that i sent you yesterday made it so that you didn't respond and made it so that you didn't respond and made it so that you didn't respond and it wasn't valuable to you it wasn't valuable to you it wasn't valuable to you and again not everybody will give you an and again not everybody will give you an and again not everybody will give you an answer but some people will and usually answer but some people will and usually answer but some people will and usually there's gold in those answers there's there's gold in those answers there's there's gold in those answers there's something insightful something insightful something insightful especially once you heard the same thing especially once you heard the same thing especially once you heard the same thing twice or three times twice or three times twice or three times it it it makes click and you go oh it it it makes click and you go oh it it it makes click and you go oh i need to fix x or y or z right i need i need to fix x or y or z right i need i need to fix x or y or z right i need to we need to adjust something

to we need to adjust something to we need to adjust something i would say that um i would kill a i would say that um i would kill a i would say that um i would kill a campaign campaign campaign once i either learned from some of these once i either learned from some of these once i either learned from some of these insights that insights that insights that this type of outreach will not work this type of outreach will not work this type of outreach will not work either for our company or for the type either for our company or for the type either for our company or for the type of customer we're going after of customer we're going after of customer we're going after or i'm being i've been stuck in not or i'm being i've been stuck in not or i'm being i've been stuck in not able to generate new insights we're not able to generate new insights we're not able to generate new insights we're not generating results generating results generating results and we're not learning anything well if and we're not learning anything well if and we're not learning anything well if you're not generating sales and you're you're not generating sales and you're you're not generating sales and you're not learning anything not learning anything not learning anything you know you can only do this for so you know you can only do this for so you know you can only do this for so long and then it's just a pure waste of long and then it's just a pure waste of long and then it's just a pure waste of time there's no time there's no time there's no being persistent will not get you being persistent will not get you being persistent will not get you anywhere by doing something generates anywhere by doing something generates anywhere by doing something generates zero zero zero new knowledge and zeroed results right new knowledge and zeroed results right new knowledge and zeroed results right at some point you'll have to stop at some point you'll have to stop at some point you'll have to stop and try something else and see if that and try something else and see if that and try something else and see if that will either generate the outcomes you will either generate the outcomes you will either generate the outcomes you want or at least want or at least want or at least learnings insights intel that can help learnings insights intel that can help learnings insights intel that can help you adjust what you do you adjust what you do you adjust what you do that would be my very rough framework that would be my very rough framework that would be my very rough framework for this and if you want to know like for this and if you want to know like for this and if you want to know like benchmarks i would always go to benchmarks i would always go to benchmarks i would always go to either competitors and see what they're either competitors and see what they're either competitors and see what they're doing or even better if you can find doing or even better if you can find doing or even better if you can find companies that companies that companies that don't compete with you but are selling don't compete with you but are selling don't compete with you but are selling to a similar market maybe you reach out to a similar market maybe you reach out to a similar market maybe you reach out to them to them to them and you have a friendly conversation and you have a friendly conversation and you have a friendly conversation again maybe founded the founder and you again maybe founded the founder and you again maybe founded the founder and you say hey i'm starting off i'm selling to say hey i'm starting off i'm selling to say hey i'm starting off i'm selling to a similar a similar a similar customer what are the results that you customer what are the results that you customer what are the results that you guys saw in the early days guys saw in the early days guys saw in the early days what is advice that you wish you'd had what is advice that you wish you'd had what is advice that you wish you'd had when you started when you started when you started learn from people that have been you learn from people that have been you learn from people that have been you know or know or know or have visited your future because they've have visited your future because they've have visited your future because they've been already there a year ago two years been already there a year ago two years been already there a year ago two years ago ago ago and i'm not directly competing with you and i'm not directly competing with you and i'm not directly competing with you so maybe they'll be kind and share some so maybe they'll be kind and share some so maybe they'll be kind and share some some information with you awesome

some information with you awesome some information with you awesome thanks sir i love that framework i have thanks sir i love that framework i have thanks sir i love that framework i have the next question this is actually from the next question this is actually from the next question this is actually from kind of for me kind of for me kind of for me um it's books people like to read books um it's books people like to read books um it's books people like to read books about things about things about things and what are some of the best sales and what are some of the best sales and what are some of the best sales books that you know about and books that you know about and books that you know about and feel free to plug your own books because feel free to plug your own books because feel free to plug your own books because you have many of them this may be a tea you have many of them this may be a tea you have many of them this may be a tea up you know to up you know to up you know to to to do that there's definitely a tea to to do that there's definitely a tea to to do that there's definitely a tea up up up because here's what i'll say if people because here's what i'll say if people because here's what i'll say if people want to read books about selling want to read books about selling want to read books about selling and they are micro conf people right and they are micro conf people right and they are micro conf people right they're like they're like they're like bootstrappers uh micropreneurs i don't bootstrappers uh micropreneurs i don't bootstrappers uh micropreneurs i don't think there's any think there's any think there's any any books out there that are probably any books out there that are probably any books out there that are probably you know more useful than you know more useful than you know more useful than what we've put together at close you can what we've put together at close you can what we've put together at close you can get all those books for free just send get all those books for free just send get all those books for free just send me an email steli me an email steli me an email steli closed.com i'll send you a link so you closed.com i'll send you a link so you closed.com i'll send you a link so you can download all all of them as pdfs and can download all all of them as pdfs and can download all all of them as pdfs and read them and they're very kind of read them and they're very kind of read them and they're very kind of structured structured structured there's books about sales hiring there's there's books about sales hiring there's there's books about sales hiring there's books about how to get the first hundred books about how to get the first hundred books about how to get the first hundred customers there's books about sales customers there's books about sales customers there's books about sales emails sales calls emails sales calls emails sales calls how to give demos like you can pick and how to give demos like you can pick and how to give demos like you can pick and choose what's most choose what's most choose what's most important and relevant to you and get important and relevant to you and get important and relevant to you and get very actionable advice within a few very actionable advice within a few very actionable advice within a few hours of reading hours of reading hours of reading this has been one of those questions this has been one of those questions this has been one of those questions that's always that i've always sucked at that's always that i've always sucked at that's always that i've always sucked at because people have been asking me for because people have been asking me for because people have been asking me for my favorite sales books for years my favorite sales books for years my favorite sales books for years and the the weird truth is that i don't and the the weird truth is that i don't and the the weird truth is that i don't have have have a list of favorite sales books um i'm a list of favorite sales books um i'm a list of favorite sales books um i'm sure there are many great sales books sure there are many great sales books sure there are many great sales books out there but out there but out there but you know you wouldn't be it might not be you know you wouldn't be it might not be you know you wouldn't be it might not be surprising to know that when surprising to know that when surprising to know that when all you do all day long is talk about all you do all day long is talk about all you do all day long is talk about sales and figure out new things to teach

sales and figure out new things to teach sales and figure out new things to teach about sales and about sales and about sales and that then you're not at the end of the that then you're not at the end of the that then you're not at the end of the day i'm not like craving more sales day i'm not like craving more sales day i'm not like craving more sales knowledge i'm like knowledge i'm like knowledge i'm like let me read all the books this there was let me read all the books this there was let me read all the books this there was a time a time a time you know 15 years ago where i read you know 15 years ago where i read you know 15 years ago where i read everything that was out there about everything that was out there about everything that was out there about sales sales sales and i'm sure i've internalized a lot of and i'm sure i've internalized a lot of and i'm sure i've internalized a lot of it and a lot of the things that i'm it and a lot of the things that i'm it and a lot of the things that i'm teaching teaching teaching have been taught to me in some ways have been taught to me in some ways have been taught to me in some ways either through books or through other either through books or through other either through books or through other means means means but i don't remember any book standing but i don't remember any book standing but i don't remember any book standing out is like the out is like the out is like the this book really taught me something or this book really taught me something or this book really taught me something or this book really stands out as something this book really stands out as something this book really stands out as something i would recommend to everybody i would recommend to everybody i would recommend to everybody so my answer here has always been shitty so my answer here has always been shitty so my answer here has always been shitty like i don't know like i don't know like i don't know like i can't really give you a great like i can't really give you a great like i can't really give you a great recommendation there was a time where we recommendation there was a time where we recommendation there was a time where we would recommend predictable revenue as a would recommend predictable revenue as a would recommend predictable revenue as a book book book for people to read but those days are for people to read but those days are for people to read but those days are over that book has been overused um over that book has been overused um over that book has been overused um now if you do enterprise sales in a now if you do enterprise sales in a now if you do enterprise sales in a super super super awkward in a super weird niche that is awkward in a super weird niche that is awkward in a super weird niche that is almost unaffected about software almost unaffected about software almost unaffected about software maybe predictor revenue is still a good maybe predictor revenue is still a good maybe predictor revenue is still a good book but anybody else book but anybody else book but anybody else that the tactics there are almost that the tactics there are almost that the tactics there are almost overused and now i i don't find it as overused and now i i don't find it as overused and now i i don't find it as is useful anymore right and i but i like is useful anymore right and i but i like is useful anymore right and i but i like your answer because your answer because your answer because i encounter this too people ask me like i encounter this too people ask me like i encounter this too people ask me like what what are some great books you can what what are some great books you can what what are some great books you can recommend about recommend about recommend about you know starting startups or you know starting startups or you know starting startups or bootstrapping startups and i struggle bootstrapping startups and i struggle bootstrapping startups and i struggle because i read because i read because i read the ones that come out and frankly a lot the ones that come out and frankly a lot the ones that come out and frankly a lot of them i don't agree with so of them i don't agree with so of them i don't agree with so how can i you know i'll read half of it how can i you know i'll read half of it how can i you know i'll read half of it uh i read the whole thing but like half uh i read the whole thing but like half uh i read the whole thing but like half of it i'm like this advice doesn't work of it i'm like this advice doesn't work of it i'm like this advice doesn't work or this is bad advice and so you become or this is bad advice and so you become or this is bad advice and so you become i feel like as you i feel like as you i feel like as you have become more opinionated about sales have become more opinionated about sales have become more opinionated about sales and as you know i've become more and as you know i've become more and as you know i've become more opinionable about entrepreneurship opinionable about entrepreneurship opinionable about entrepreneurship it's almost like you see the flaws and it's almost like you see the flaws and it's almost like you see the flaws and all these things and so you go write all these things and so you go write all these things and so you go write your own damn books and that really is

your own damn books and that really is your own damn books and that really is you're not you're not you're not you're not trying to sell anything you you're not trying to sell anything you you're not trying to sell anything you literally just have a bunch of books literally just have a bunch of books literally just have a bunch of books you've written because those are your you've written because those are your you've written because those are your opinions opinions opinions and and the best books in your opinion and and the best books in your opinion and and the best books in your opinion on sales on sales on sales are those because they match what you are those because they match what you are those because they match what you believe right so believe right so believe right so i i don't i don't take that as a you i i don't i don't take that as a you i i don't i don't take that as a you know as a cop-out or anything so i'm know as a cop-out or anything so i'm know as a cop-out or anything so i'm actually i'm a little i'm so frustrated actually i'm a little i'm so frustrated actually i'm a little i'm so frustrated with it that with it that with it that i am working on another book i'm not i am working on another book i'm not i am working on another book i'm not saying it on the record here but i'm saying it on the record here but i'm saying it on the record here but i'm working on another book working on another book working on another book and it's it's on this topic it's on you and it's it's on this topic it's on you and it's it's on this topic it's on you know bootstrapping sas in essence or know bootstrapping sas in essence or know bootstrapping sas in essence or most bootstrapping and mostly most bootstrapping and mostly most bootstrapping and mostly bootstrapping stats and it's because i bootstrapping stats and it's because i bootstrapping stats and it's because i get the question enough get the question enough get the question enough and my first book is it's old enough and and my first book is it's old enough and and my first book is it's old enough and it was focused more on really small it was focused more on really small it was focused more on really small ideas and i want to talk about seven and ideas and i want to talk about seven and ideas and i want to talk about seven and you know eight figure bootstrap you know eight figure bootstrap you know eight figure bootstrap companies now and um so i'm going to be companies now and um so i'm going to be companies now and um so i'm going to be doing a similar thing because i want to doing a similar thing because i want to doing a similar thing because i want to be able to answer that question too with be able to answer that question too with be able to answer that question too with something that i can really hardly something that i can really hardly something that i can really hardly recommend don't get me wrong there are recommend don't get me wrong there are recommend don't get me wrong there are some good resources out there um some good resources out there um some good resources out there um specifically specifically specifically on bootstrapping um but uh on bootstrapping um but uh on bootstrapping um but uh yeah no no i like that that advice last yeah no no i like that that advice last yeah no no i like that that advice last question as we wrap up i think we have question as we wrap up i think we have question as we wrap up i think we have maybe two minutes left um i'm wondering maybe two minutes left um i'm wondering maybe two minutes left um i'm wondering i have this question this may be an i have this question this may be an i have this question this may be an obvious answer but there are certain obvious answer but there are certain obvious answer but there are certain companies companies companies that don't need to do outbound at all um that don't need to do outbound at all um that don't need to do outbound at all um i'm doing okay i need to go sign for a i'm doing okay i need to go sign for a i'm doing okay i need to go sign for a package this is amazing so here's what package this is amazing so here's what package this is amazing so here's what i'm going to do steli i'm going to do steli i'm going to do steli okay i'm going to ask you a question okay i'm going to ask you a question okay i'm going to ask you a question right back here's the question right back here's the question right back here's the question um it's if there's some companies that um it's if there's some companies that um it's if there's some companies that have so much inbound have so much inbound have so much inbound lead flow that they don't need to do lead flow that they don't need to do lead flow that they don't need to do outbound is that a good position to be outbound is that a good position to be outbound is that a good position to be in or should you in or should you in or should you always be doing outbound reach i'll be always be doing outbound reach i'll be always be doing outbound reach i'll be back in 30 seconds back in 30 seconds back in 30 seconds all right go go sign your package so uh all right go go sign your package so uh all right go go sign your package so uh i would say again it depends close

i would say again it depends close i would say again it depends close itself itself itself we do only inbound when we started we do only inbound when we started we do only inbound when we started inbound flow was so good that we said inbound flow was so good that we said inbound flow was so good that we said we're gonna do inbound for a little we're gonna do inbound for a little we're gonna do inbound for a little while while while and probably within the first six to and probably within the first six to and probably within the first six to twelve months twelve months twelve months inbound is not gonna grow as much inbound is not gonna grow as much inbound is not gonna grow as much anymore and we're gonna have to start anymore and we're gonna have to start anymore and we're gonna have to start building building building an outbound sales team that's been an outbound sales team that's been an outbound sales team that's been seven years now and we still haven't seven years now and we still haven't seven years now and we still haven't gotten to the point where inbound hasn't gotten to the point where inbound hasn't gotten to the point where inbound hasn't been been been continuously growing so significantly continuously growing so significantly continuously growing so significantly for us that we've for us that we've for us that we've had to focus on outbound so i don't had to focus on outbound so i don't had to focus on outbound so i don't think it's necessarily a bad thing i do think it's necessarily a bad thing i do think it's necessarily a bad thing i do think think think everything has pros and cons you should everything has pros and cons you should everything has pros and cons you should just be just be just be aware of where you are in the space aware of where you are in the space aware of where you are in the space right so right so right so the beautiful thing about outbound is the beautiful thing about outbound is the beautiful thing about outbound is that you can be very proactive that you can be very proactive that you can be very proactive and if there's certain type of companies and if there's certain type of companies and if there's certain type of companies that you want as customers that would that you want as customers that would that you want as customers that would really benefit you really benefit you really benefit you if they were your customers the if they were your customers the if they were your customers the beautiful thing in outbound is you don't beautiful thing in outbound is you don't beautiful thing in outbound is you don't have to wait around and hope that one have to wait around and hope that one have to wait around and hope that one day they'll read your ebook day they'll read your ebook day they'll read your ebook or they'll you know type in a search or they'll you know type in a search or they'll you know type in a search term and find you term and find you term and find you you can go proactively and get that you can go proactively and get that you can go proactively and get that business as a customer business as a customer business as a customer that's the beauty of outbound you have that's the beauty of outbound you have that's the beauty of outbound you have to wait around you can be very proactive to wait around you can be very proactive to wait around you can be very proactive um it does give you a superpower it is a um it does give you a superpower it is a um it does give you a superpower it is a channel that once you make it work for channel that once you make it work for channel that once you make it work for you you you you know it is a very proactive channel you know it is a very proactive channel you know it is a very proactive channel um um um with inbound it takes much longer to with inbound it takes much longer to with inbound it takes much longer to build up it's also build up it's also build up it's also you cannot target as specifically you you cannot target as specifically you you cannot target as specifically you can't say here can't say here can't say here is our wish list of these hundred is our wish list of these hundred is our wish list of these hundred companies we want to acquire as companies we want to acquire as companies we want to acquire as customers and then we'll write content customers and then we'll write content customers and then we'll write content that they will definitely read that they will definitely read that they will definitely read and fill out forms and get in touch with and fill out forms and get in touch with and fill out forms and get in touch with us you can't do that us you can't do that us you can't do that but vice versa you know without bond you

but vice versa you know without bond you but vice versa you know without bond you always have the struggle of always have the struggle of always have the struggle of of channels right like you know you're of channels right like you know you're of channels right like you know you're doing something let's say you send lots doing something let's say you send lots doing something let's say you send lots of emails all of a sudden these emails of emails all of a sudden these emails of emails all of a sudden these emails start start start ending up in spam folders or people you ending up in spam folders or people you ending up in spam folders or people you know start filtering out their email know start filtering out their email know start filtering out their email more or your subject lines they used to more or your subject lines they used to more or your subject lines they used to kill now don't work at all anymore kill now don't work at all anymore kill now don't work at all anymore because everybody uses those subject because everybody uses those subject because everybody uses those subject lines lines lines so you always have these kind of so you always have these kind of so you always have these kind of challenges that people are protecting challenges that people are protecting challenges that people are protecting themselves more and more and more from themselves more and more and more from themselves more and more and more from interruptions uh in the business context interruptions uh in the business context interruptions uh in the business context but then in inbound you might have the but then in inbound you might have the but then in inbound you might have the problem of google right maybe you rely problem of google right maybe you rely problem of google right maybe you rely too much on on organic search or maybe too much on on organic search or maybe too much on on organic search or maybe you rely too much on you rely too much on you rely too much on social media and all of a sudden social media and all of a sudden social media and all of a sudden facebook changes the algorithm or facebook changes the algorithm or facebook changes the algorithm or twitter changes the algorithm or google twitter changes the algorithm or google twitter changes the algorithm or google changes their their search algorithm changes their their search algorithm changes their their search algorithm boom boom boom you know 30 of your traffic is gone what you know 30 of your traffic is gone what you know 30 of your traffic is gone what do you do now do you do now do you do now so it's always good as a business when so it's always good as a business when so it's always good as a business when you don't fully rely on just purely one you don't fully rely on just purely one you don't fully rely on just purely one channel i i'll say that it's good to be channel i i'll say that it's good to be channel i i'll say that it's good to be able to be able to be able to be building a second channel or third building a second channel or third building a second channel or third channel channel channel the more channels you have the less you the more channels you have the less you the more channels you have the less you are are are you know at risk that if that channel you know at risk that if that channel you know at risk that if that channel changes changes changes um your business is going to be in um your business is going to be in um your business is going to be in trouble but you don't have to do up on trouble but you don't have to do up on trouble but you don't have to do up on sales there's companies that are very sales there's companies that are very sales there's companies that are very successful successful successful purely doing inbound we're one of them purely doing inbound we're one of them purely doing inbound we're one of them right although we we know a lot about right although we we know a lot about right although we we know a lot about outbound we have not had to use it outbound we have not had to use it outbound we have not had to use it use that knowledge and so um i think it use that knowledge and so um i think it use that knowledge and so um i think it always depends on the kind of business always depends on the kind of business always depends on the kind of business you have the kind of product you have you have the kind of product you have you have the kind of product you have the kind of customer you go after so the kind of customer you go after so the kind of customer you go after so uh it's all good yep right and that's in uh it's all good yep right and that's in uh it's all good yep right and that's in that context that's where that context that's where that context that's where if those channels start to dry up if those channels start to dry up if those channels start to dry up whether it's an outbound or an inbound whether it's an outbound or an inbound whether it's an outbound or an inbound channel it gets cut off channel it gets cut off channel it gets cut off it's i think it's it's easy to rely on

it's i think it's it's easy to rely on it's i think it's it's easy to rely on those things and to not think about those things and to not think about those things and to not think about hey shall we start building a brand here hey shall we start building a brand here hey shall we start building a brand here and shall we start teaching and shall we start teaching and shall we start teaching to where a lot of people seek out to where a lot of people seek out to where a lot of people seek out clothes.com because of the steli clothes.com because of the steli clothes.com because of the steli brand right because they see you brand right because they see you brand right because they see you teaching and they know that you are the teaching and they know that you are the teaching and they know that you are the expert in the space expert in the space expert in the space and you you know that may not be and you you know that may not be and you you know that may not be possible for everyone maybe you're not possible for everyone maybe you're not possible for everyone maybe you're not the expert in the space that may not be the expert in the space that may not be the expert in the space that may not be possible in every space some spaces they possible in every space some spaces they possible in every space some spaces they don't care don't care don't care about who the expert is and it's a about who the expert is and it's a about who the expert is and it's a commodity space or whatever but commodity space or whatever but commodity space or whatever but longer term if you are look if you're longer term if you are look if you're longer term if you are look if you're gonna build a business two and a half gonna build a business two and a half gonna build a business two and a half million dollars a year a million dollars million dollars a year a million dollars million dollars a year a million dollars a year great a year great a year great you can do that with seo you can do that you can do that with seo you can do that you can do that with seo you can do that with adwords i mean we see i see dozens with adwords i mean we see i see dozens with adwords i mean we see i see dozens of these businesses but of these businesses but of these businesses but if you if you really do want to build a if you if you really do want to build a if you if you really do want to build a sas company that's going to last 10-15 sas company that's going to last 10-15 sas company that's going to last 10-15 years years years that's going to be 5 10 20 million that's going to be 5 10 20 million that's going to be 5 10 20 million dollars dollars dollars it's possible to do that a lot of it's possible to do that a lot of it's possible to do that a lot of different ways but i i would i posit different ways but i i would i posit different ways but i i would i posit that a lot of that that a lot of that that a lot of that um the building a a brand around that um the building a a brand around that um the building a a brand around that to where you are no longer commodity in to where you are no longer commodity in to where you are no longer commodity in the space and you are teaching and you the space and you are teaching and you the space and you are teaching and you are are are viewed as an expert whether it's you or viewed as an expert whether it's you or viewed as an expert whether it's you or someone on your team or your whole team someone on your team or your whole team someone on your team or your whole team or whatever or whatever or whatever like you know you see stripe doing this like you know you see stripe doing this like you know you see stripe doing this where they're putting out all this where they're putting out all this where they're putting out all this content it's no content it's no content it's no no one person's name under that but you no one person's name under that but you no one person's name under that but you start to see the stripe press uh that start to see the stripe press uh that start to see the stripe press uh that you know the publications come out and you know the publications come out and you know the publications come out and there there there there's a you know a lot behind it much there's a you know a lot behind it much there's a you know a lot behind it much like with your books so like with your books so like with your books so um with that we're at time sir um with that we're at time sir um with that we're at time sir it's been great having you today thank it's been great having you today thank it's been great having you today thank you so much folks can follow you at you so much folks can follow you at you so much folks can follow you at steli on steli on steli on uh the twitters and they can email you uh the twitters and they can email you uh the twitters and they can email you stelia close.com stelia close.com stelia close.com if they want to get those fancy ebooks i if they want to get those fancy ebooks i if they want to get those fancy ebooks i believe i still have my copies i might believe i still have my copies i might believe i still have my copies i might need to refresh my uh need to refresh my uh need to refresh my uh my sales chops here pretty soon so

my sales chops here pretty soon so my sales chops here pretty soon so thanks again for joining me thanks again for joining me thanks again for joining me really appreciate it hey bob it was an really appreciate it hey bob it was an really appreciate it hey bob it was an honor and a pleasure as always hey thank you so much for inviting me hey thank you so much for inviting me it's always a pleasure it's always a pleasure it's always a pleasure asked yeah it was great great talking to asked yeah it was great great talking to asked yeah it was great great talking to you all right as we roll out so next you all right as we roll out so next you all right as we roll out so next week week week this same time same place the state of this same time same place the state of this same time same place the state of independent sas independent sas independent sas live stream will be happening you can go live stream will be happening you can go live stream will be happening you can go to state of indysass.com to state of indysass.com to state of indysass.com and we are going to be releasing the and we are going to be releasing the and we are going to be releasing the 2021 state of independent sas report 2021 state of independent sas report 2021 state of independent sas report where we asked a bunch of questions and where we asked a bunch of questions and where we asked a bunch of questions and we have an 86 page report we have an 86 page report we have an 86 page report that we're going to be talking through that we're going to be talking through that we're going to be talking through not all of it obviously it's only about not all of it obviously it's only about not all of it obviously it's only about a 30 or 40 minute live stream but state a 30 or 40 minute live stream but state a 30 or 40 minute live stream but state of indies.com if you're interested of indies.com if you're interested of indies.com if you're interested thank you so much to hey and stripe for thank you so much to hey and stripe for thank you so much to hey and stripe for supporting supporting supporting microconf it's great to have you here microconf it's great to have you here microconf it's great to have you here and i'll see you again next week and i'll see you again next week and i'll see you again next week same time same place same time same place same time same place [Music] [Music] [Music] you