Hitting the Pause Button On Your SaaS with Allison Seboldt – MicroConf On Air

And we're live. Welcome [snorts] to this And we're live. Welcome [snorts] to this week's Micro Comp on Air. I'm your host, week's Micro Comp on Air. I'm your host, week's Micro Comp on Air. I'm your host, Rob Walling. Every Wednesday at 1 p.m. Rob Walling. Every Wednesday at 1 p.m. Rob Walling. Every Wednesday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10:00 a.m. Pacific, we live Eastern, 10:00 a.m. Pacific, we live Eastern, 10:00 a.m. Pacific, we live stream for 30 minutes, and we cover stream for 30 minutes, and we cover stream for 30 minutes, and we cover topics related to building and growing topics related to building and growing topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS [music] startups that ambitious SAS [music] startups that ambitious SAS [music] startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow bring us freedom and purpose and allow bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy us to value and maintain healthy us to value and maintain healthy relationships. We believe that showing relationships. We believe that showing relationships. We believe that showing up every day, shipping that next up every day, shipping that next up every day, shipping that next feature, next piece of marketing copy, feature, next piece of marketing copy, feature, next piece of marketing copy, or closing your next sale is a way to or closing your next sale is a way to or closing your next sale is a way to build a sustainable company. We don't build a sustainable company. We don't build a sustainable company. We don't ask for permission to start companies. ask for permission to start companies. ask for permission to start companies. We build and ship real products who sell We build and ship real products who sell We build and ship real products who sell the real customers [music] who pay us the real customers [music] who pay us the real customers [music] who pay us real money. Welcome to Microphone Air. real money. Welcome to Microphone Air. real money. Welcome to Microphone Air. You may be able to hear my dog in the You may be able to hear my dog in the You may be able to hear my dog in the background. This is live streaming in a background. This is live streaming in a background. This is live streaming in a pandemic. I have a couple children at pandemic. I have a couple children at pandemic. I have a couple children at home as well as a Sharpi who is home as well as a Sharpi who is home as well as a Sharpi who is steadfastly guarding the front door. steadfastly guarding the front door. steadfastly guarding the front door. Today we are talking about hitting the Today we are talking about hitting the Today we are talking about hitting the pause button on your SAS. It's a an pause button on your SAS. It's a an pause button on your SAS. It's a an interesting topic and and a new one that interesting topic and and a new one that interesting topic and and a new one that I don't think I've covered before, I don't think I've covered before, I don't think I've covered before, whether on this uh this show or on other whether on this uh this show or on other whether on this uh this show or on other podcasts that I've done. So, um I am podcasts that I've done. So, um I am podcasts that I've done. So, um I am pretty excited to dive into this. My pretty excited to dive into this. My pretty excited to dive into this. My guest today is Allison Seabolt of guest today is Allison Seabolt of guest today is Allison Seabolt of Fantasy Congress. She's the founder of Fantasy Congress. She's the founder of Fantasy Congress. She's the founder of Fantasy Congress at fantasy Fantasy Congress at fantasy Fantasy Congress at fantasy congress.com. Allison is a self-taught congress.com. Allison is a self-taught congress.com. Allison is a self-taught developer and a bootstrapping developer and a bootstrapping developer and a bootstrapping enthusiast. After working as a web enthusiast. After working as a web enthusiast. After working as a web developer for four years, she quit developer for four years, she quit developer for four years, she quit corporate life to pursue her passion corporate life to pursue her passion corporate life to pursue her passion project, which is Fantasy Congress.

project, which is Fantasy Congress. project, which is Fantasy Congress. Fantasy Congress is an online game that Fantasy Congress is an online game that Fantasy Congress is an online game that puts fantasy sports puts a fantasy puts fantasy sports puts a fantasy puts fantasy sports puts a fantasy sports spin on politics. Players draft sports spin on politics. Players draft sports spin on politics. Players draft members of Congress of US Congress. I members of Congress of US Congress. I members of Congress of US Congress. I love this. For their team and earn love this. For their team and earn love this. For their team and earn points based on legislative activities, points based on legislative activities, points based on legislative activities, actions like votes, sponsoring bills, actions like votes, sponsoring bills, actions like votes, sponsoring bills, and debating on the chamber floor. and debating on the chamber floor. and debating on the chamber floor. Fantasy Congress is intended to be a fun Fantasy Congress is intended to be a fun Fantasy Congress is intended to be a fun way to connect with friends while also way to connect with friends while also way to connect with friends while also helping people stay engaged and informed helping people stay engaged and informed helping people stay engaged and informed in the political process. So again, in the political process. So again, in the political process. So again, we're going to be talking today a little we're going to be talking today a little we're going to be talking today a little bit about uh building and launching and bit about uh building and launching and bit about uh building and launching and and putting Fantasy Congress on pause and putting Fantasy Congress on pause and putting Fantasy Congress on pause for the moment. Um if you have listener for the moment. Um if you have listener for the moment. Um if you have listener questions for myself or Allison, please questions for myself or Allison, please questions for myself or Allison, please do post them into the MicroConf onair do post them into the MicroConf onair do post them into the MicroConf onair channel in Microcom connect which is our channel in Microcom connect which is our channel in Microcom connect which is our Slack channel of founders and aspiring Slack channel of founders and aspiring Slack channel of founders and aspiring founders around the globe. We have founders around the globe. We have founders around the globe. We have approaching 1,600 people in there. It is approaching 1,600 people in there. It is approaching 1,600 people in there. It is totally free as long as uh you're a totally free as long as uh you're a totally free as long as uh you're a founder or you're working on something. founder or you're working on something. founder or you're working on something. And that is at microconnect.com And that is at microconnect.com And that is at microconnect.com if you want to become a part of that. Um if you want to become a part of that. Um if you want to become a part of that. Um and that's yeah, that's it. We're going and that's yeah, that's it. We're going and that's yeah, that's it. We're going to dive in. So Allison, welcome to the to dive in. So Allison, welcome to the to dive in. So Allison, welcome to the show.

show. show. Hey Rob, thanks for having me. Hey Rob, thanks for having me. Hey Rob, thanks for having me. Absolutely. Um, we were just chatting Absolutely. Um, we were just chatting Absolutely. Um, we were just chatting before we we hopped on that I got we're before we we hopped on that I got we're before we we hopped on that I got we're we're just uh what a 5-h hour drive away we're just uh what a 5-h hour drive away we're just uh what a 5-h hour drive away from each other here in the Midwest. And from each other here in the Midwest. And from each other here in the Midwest. And while I got six hours of of six inches while I got six hours of of six inches while I got six hours of of six inches of snow yesterday, um you didn't get any of snow yesterday, um you didn't get any of snow yesterday, um you didn't get any over in Chicago. Is that right? over in Chicago. Is that right? over in Chicago. Is that right? No. But yeah, last year for Halloween, No. But yeah, last year for Halloween, No. But yeah, last year for Halloween, we got three inches. So, I'm very we got three inches. So, I'm very we got three inches. So, I'm very familiar with this experience of October familiar with this experience of October familiar with this experience of October snow. snow. snow. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Cool. Well, um, Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Cool. Well, um, Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Cool. Well, um, let's dive into this because I'm I'm let's dive into this because I'm I'm let's dive into this because I'm I'm pretty, uh, pretty intrigued by your pretty, uh, pretty intrigued by your pretty, uh, pretty intrigued by your story. You know, I don't hear a lot of story. You know, I don't hear a lot of story. You know, I don't hear a lot of people, um, well, a it's an interesting people, um, well, a it's an interesting people, um, well, a it's an interesting you you launched into, you know, a B TOC you you launched into, you know, a B TOC you you launched into, you know, a B TOC play. Um, and you people can follow play. Um, and you people can follow play. Um, and you people can follow along on your blog. Actually, what what along on your blog. Actually, what what along on your blog. Actually, what what is the URL of of where you're blogging? is the URL of of where you're blogging? is the URL of of where you're blogging? Uh, allison Seabbolt.com. Uh, allison Seabbolt.com. Uh, allison Seabbolt.com. Okay. And it's sebolt. Okay. And it's sebolt. Okay. And it's sebolt. and I read several of your updates and and I read several of your updates and and I read several of your updates and kind of watched watched your kind of watched watched your kind of watched watched your progression, but really, you know, progression, but really, you know, progression, but really, you know, you've as a developer, you you're you've as a developer, you you're you've as a developer, you you're obviously, you know, really leaned into obviously, you know, really leaned into obviously, you know, really leaned into this world of of indie hacking. Can you this world of of indie hacking. Can you this world of of indie hacking. Can you tell us a bit about your journey from tell us a bit about your journey from tell us a bit about your journey from teaching yourself to code? So, we'll go teaching yourself to code? So, we'll go teaching yourself to code? So, we'll go from, hey, you already know how to code, from, hey, you already know how to code, from, hey, you already know how to code, but deciding, hey, I am going to build but deciding, hey, I am going to build but deciding, hey, I am going to build Fantasy Congress and I'm going to go all Fantasy Congress and I'm going to go all Fantasy Congress and I'm going to go all in on this. You want to talk us through in on this. You want to talk us through in on this. You want to talk us through how you made that decision?

how you made that decision? how you made that decision? Yeah. So, um, I was teaching myself to Yeah. So, um, I was teaching myself to Yeah. So, um, I was teaching myself to code around like 2012, 2013, and in code around like 2012, 2013, and in code around like 2012, 2013, and in 2014, that's when I got my first job. 2014, that's when I got my first job. 2014, that's when I got my first job. And 2014 is actually when I came up with And 2014 is actually when I came up with And 2014 is actually when I came up with the idea of Fantasy Congress. So, I came the idea of Fantasy Congress. So, I came the idea of Fantasy Congress. So, I came up with it originally. Uh, when I first up with it originally. Uh, when I first up with it originally. Uh, when I first thought of it, I was like, "Oh, that thought of it, I was like, "Oh, that thought of it, I was like, "Oh, that would be like such an interesting side would be like such an interesting side would be like such an interesting side project to put on my portfolio, but I project to put on my portfolio, but I project to put on my portfolio, but I got a job and then I got busy and I got a job and then I got busy and I got a job and then I got busy and I didn't really think about it." I was didn't really think about it." I was didn't really think about it." I was still obsessed with the idea, though. I still obsessed with the idea, though. I still obsessed with the idea, though. I just I couldn't get it out of my head just I couldn't get it out of my head just I couldn't get it out of my head and I was working in the field for a and I was working in the field for a and I was working in the field for a while. while. while. I tried starting it as a side project a I tried starting it as a side project a I tried starting it as a side project a couple of times and it just didn't couple of times and it just didn't couple of times and it just didn't really work for me. Um, you know, coding really work for me. Um, you know, coding really work for me. Um, you know, coding all day or working 40 hours a week and all day or working 40 hours a week and all day or working 40 hours a week and then commuting and coming home. I just then commuting and coming home. I just then commuting and coming home. I just wanted to rest. Like I didn't want to wanted to rest. Like I didn't want to wanted to rest. Like I didn't want to continue coding. And Fantasy Congress continue coding. And Fantasy Congress continue coding. And Fantasy Congress was a kind of labor intensive side was a kind of labor intensive side was a kind of labor intensive side project. So, it didn't really work for project. So, it didn't really work for project. So, it didn't really work for me. Um, I was still obsessed with the me. Um, I was still obsessed with the me. Um, I was still obsessed with the idea though and in 2017 I was kind of idea though and in 2017 I was kind of idea though and in 2017 I was kind of thinking about, oh, what I want to do thinking about, oh, what I want to do thinking about, oh, what I want to do next in my career and I decided to save next in my career and I decided to save next in my career and I decided to save up money and just up money and just up money and just quit my job and dive into it. So, quit my job and dive into it. So, quit my job and dive into it. So, beginning of 2018, I just dove head beginning of 2018, I just dove head beginning of 2018, I just dove head first into it. Total newbie, had never first into it. Total newbie, had never first into it. Total newbie, had never started a business before, had never started a business before, had never started a business before, had never done anything like this before, and was done anything like this before, and was done anything like this before, and was just like, "Hey, I'll sink or swim.

just like, "Hey, I'll sink or swim. just like, "Hey, I'll sink or swim. Let's see what happens." So, Let's see what happens." So, Let's see what happens." So, and here we are two and a half years and here we are two and a half years and here we are two and a half years later. later. later. Yeah, that's uh that's interesting. So, Yeah, that's uh that's interesting. So, Yeah, that's uh that's interesting. So, you didn't want to do it on the side you didn't want to do it on the side you didn't want to do it on the side because that's obviously the path a lot because that's obviously the path a lot because that's obviously the path a lot of people take because they do have the of people take because they do have the of people take because they do have the day job and they want infinite runway in day job and they want infinite runway in day job and they want infinite runway in essence, which is what a day job gets essence, which is what a day job gets essence, which is what a day job gets you. Um was it the desire to not do it you. Um was it the desire to not do it you. Um was it the desire to not do it on the side? Was it that you were you on the side? Was it that you were you on the side? Was it that you were you were tired in the evenings? You felt were tired in the evenings? You felt were tired in the evenings? You felt like your focus was split. Um what what like your focus was split. Um what what like your focus was split. Um what what what went into that? the decision to what went into that? the decision to what went into that? the decision to truly quit your job because some while truly quit your job because some while truly quit your job because some while some people do that it's you know some people do that it's you know some people do that it's you know obviously not the most common thing you obviously not the most common thing you obviously not the most common thing you hear developers do. hear developers do. hear developers do. Yeah, there were kind of two pieces to Yeah, there were kind of two pieces to Yeah, there were kind of two pieces to that. So when I was trying so I did try that. So when I was trying so I did try that. So when I was trying so I did try to start it as a side project a couple to start it as a side project a couple to start it as a side project a couple of times and of times and of times and I didn't have the time management skills I didn't have the time management skills I didn't have the time management skills I think I have now. So it and it just I think I have now. So it and it just I think I have now. So it and it just felt too big, you know, I wasn't I never felt too big, you know, I wasn't I never felt too big, you know, I wasn't I never felt like I was making progress on it. I felt like I was making progress on it. I felt like I was making progress on it. I would come home and just kind of dread, would come home and just kind of dread, would come home and just kind of dread, oh, I have to do more work. So, it was oh, I have to do more work. So, it was oh, I have to do more work. So, it was more just I think I have a certain more just I think I have a certain more just I think I have a certain amount of coding hours in me per day and amount of coding hours in me per day and amount of coding hours in me per day and like doing a side project while also like doing a side project while also like doing a side project while also having a full-time job kind of uh it was having a full-time job kind of uh it was having a full-time job kind of uh it was too much for me to handle today. Now, I too much for me to handle today. Now, I too much for me to handle today. Now, I think I might have a little bit I have think I might have a little bit I have think I might have a little bit I have better time management skills honestly.

better time management skills honestly. better time management skills honestly. Like being an entrepreneur has taught me Like being an entrepreneur has taught me Like being an entrepreneur has taught me time management skills. So, I think I time management skills. So, I think I time management skills. So, I think I would probably it would probably be would probably it would probably be would probably it would probably be easier for me now. But at the time then easier for me now. But at the time then easier for me now. But at the time then it didn't really work for me. Um, and it didn't really work for me. Um, and it didn't really work for me. Um, and then the other thing too was I wasn't then the other thing too was I wasn't then the other thing too was I wasn't really happy in my current job. So I was really happy in my current job. So I was really happy in my current job. So I was kind of like, oh, what do I do next? Do kind of like, oh, what do I do next? Do kind of like, oh, what do I do next? Do I go get another job? I don't know what I go get another job? I don't know what I go get another job? I don't know what if I don't vibe with that team. And I if I don't vibe with that team. And I if I don't vibe with that team. And I just the entire time, you know, for the just the entire time, you know, for the just the entire time, you know, for the full four years I was working in uh the full four years I was working in uh the full four years I was working in uh the industry. I just I was obsessing over industry. I just I was obsessing over industry. I just I was obsessing over this idea and I was like, h, you know, this idea and I was like, h, you know, this idea and I was like, h, you know, I've tried to start this side project I've tried to start this side project I've tried to start this side project and it's not working. I feel like the and it's not working. I feel like the and it's not working. I feel like the only way it would ever actually happen only way it would ever actually happen only way it would ever actually happen is if I worked on it full-time. So, I is if I worked on it full-time. So, I is if I worked on it full-time. So, I just I kind of decided I was at this just I kind of decided I was at this just I kind of decided I was at this crossroads and I was going to go for it. crossroads and I was going to go for it. crossroads and I was going to go for it. Yeah. And it's and it's a luxury to be Yeah. And it's and it's a luxury to be Yeah. And it's and it's a luxury to be able to do that, right? I mean, a lot of able to do that, right? I mean, a lot of able to do that, right? I mean, a lot of people, you know, it's hard for them to people, you know, it's hard for them to people, you know, it's hard for them to save up enough money to to be able to um save up enough money to to be able to um save up enough money to to be able to um to do that. So, you know, to do that. So, you know, to do that. So, you know, congratulations for, you know, being congratulations for, you know, being congratulations for, you know, being able to pull that together. Um I'm able to pull that together. Um I'm able to pull that together. Um I'm curious. I've never heard of I mean, curious. I've never heard of I mean, curious. I've never heard of I mean, when I see the idea for this, it it's a when I see the idea for this, it it's a when I see the idea for this, it it's a no-brainer. It's like, well, of course no-brainer. It's like, well, of course no-brainer. It's like, well, of course that should exist. Does it exist beyond, that should exist. Does it exist beyond, that should exist. Does it exist beyond, you know, did it exist before you built you know, did it exist before you built you know, did it exist before you built Fancy Congress or or did you truly Fancy Congress or or did you truly Fancy Congress or or did you truly innovate in this space?

innovate in this space? innovate in this space? Uh, no. It did exist previously. Um, Uh, no. It did exist previously. Um, Uh, no. It did exist previously. Um, there's been a few different iterations there's been a few different iterations there's been a few different iterations of it. The most popular one was in 2006. of it. The most popular one was in 2006. of it. The most popular one was in 2006. It ran from 2006 to the end of 2007, I It ran from 2006 to the end of 2007, I It ran from 2006 to the end of 2007, I believe. Um, and it was started by some believe. Um, and it was started by some believe. Um, and it was started by some college kids in California. And they it college kids in California. And they it college kids in California. And they it you know, it's funny. I've I've talked you know, it's funny. I've I've talked you know, it's funny. I've I've talked to the previous founders a little bit to the previous founders a little bit to the previous founders a little bit and they said, you know, it got it and they said, you know, it got it and they said, you know, it got it picked up steam. They moved to DC to picked up steam. They moved to DC to picked up steam. They moved to DC to work on it, but it wasn't profitable and work on it, but it wasn't profitable and work on it, but it wasn't profitable and I believe they sold it to Politico in I believe they sold it to Politico in I believe they sold it to Politico in 2008 and Politico kind of like turned it 2008 and Politico kind of like turned it 2008 and Politico kind of like turned it into some other game. Um, and then they into some other game. Um, and then they into some other game. Um, and then they pursued something else. And then there's pursued something else. And then there's pursued something else. And then there's been other people who have started been other people who have started been other people who have started similar side projects or done similar similar side projects or done similar similar side projects or done similar things on the internet, but none of it's things on the internet, but none of it's things on the internet, but none of it's ever really taken off. I feel like no ever really taken off. I feel like no ever really taken off. I feel like no one no one seems to have treated it like one no one seems to have treated it like one no one seems to have treated it like a business from my perspective. When I a business from my perspective. When I a business from my perspective. When I when I was thinking about starting this when I was thinking about starting this when I was thinking about starting this as a side project, obviously I Googled, as a side project, obviously I Googled, as a side project, obviously I Googled, okay, this has to exist already. Surely okay, this has to exist already. Surely okay, this has to exist already. Surely somebody else has done this somebody else has done this somebody else has done this and I did find these previous versions, and I did find these previous versions, and I did find these previous versions, but nobody was charging for it. Nobody but nobody was charging for it. Nobody but nobody was charging for it. Nobody seemed to be like making money off of seemed to be like making money off of seemed to be like making money off of it. They all seem to be just side it. They all seem to be just side it. They all seem to be just side projects like I did this thing and I put projects like I did this thing and I put projects like I did this thing and I put it up online. or in the case of the it up online. or in the case of the it up online. or in the case of the college kids in 2006, they were college kids in 2006, they were college kids in 2006, they were primarily trying to make money off of ad primarily trying to make money off of ad primarily trying to make money off of ad revenue, which didn't work out. So my revenue, which didn't work out. So my revenue, which didn't work out. So my thinking was if I treated this more like thinking was if I treated this more like thinking was if I treated this more like a business, more like, you know, a business, more like, you know, a business, more like, you know, DraftKings, FanDuel, maybe not like DraftKings, FanDuel, maybe not like DraftKings, FanDuel, maybe not like betting on it, but you know, those are betting on it, but you know, those are betting on it, but you know, those are definitely businesses. So if I focused

definitely businesses. So if I focused definitely businesses. So if I focused more on can I get people to pay for more on can I get people to pay for more on can I get people to pay for this, maybe it would be more sustainable this, maybe it would be more sustainable this, maybe it would be more sustainable and grow and become this thing that I and grow and become this thing that I and grow and become this thing that I think it really big thing that I think think it really big thing that I think think it really big thing that I think it could be. it could be. it could be. Right. And and is that the revenue Right. And and is that the revenue Right. And and is that the revenue model? Do you charge like a monthly or model? Do you charge like a monthly or model? Do you charge like a monthly or an annual subscription fee? an annual subscription fee? an annual subscription fee? Yeah. So right now I have two audiences. Yeah. So right now I have two audiences. Yeah. So right now I have two audiences. So there's recreational players and then So there's recreational players and then So there's recreational players and then there's educators because I learned in there's educators because I learned in there's educators because I learned in the process of making this that civics the process of making this that civics the process of making this that civics educators find this very useful tool. educators find this very useful tool. educators find this very useful tool. Um, so for the recreational players, uh, Um, so for the recreational players, uh, Um, so for the recreational players, uh, they pay a monthly subscription fee and they pay a monthly subscription fee and they pay a monthly subscription fee and then the educators pay a flat yearly then the educators pay a flat yearly then the educators pay a flat yearly fee. fee. fee. Got it. And what what's the range of Got it. And what what's the range of Got it. And what what's the range of those fees? Just to give folks an idea. those fees? Just to give folks an idea. those fees? Just to give folks an idea. Uh, the recreational players right now Uh, the recreational players right now Uh, the recreational players right now it's $19 a month and then that's so you it's $19 a month and then that's so you it's $19 a month and then that's so you sign up and that allows you to create sign up and that allows you to create sign up and that allows you to create leagues and then you can invite anybody leagues and then you can invite anybody leagues and then you can invite anybody to play in your league for free. And to play in your league for free. And to play in your league for free. And then uh for the educators, it's $149 for then uh for the educators, it's $149 for then uh for the educators, it's $149 for a year and you can create as many a year and you can create as many a year and you can create as many leagues and add as many students as you leagues and add as many students as you leagues and add as many students as you need to. need to. need to. Got it. And is that similar to pricing Got it. And is that similar to pricing Got it. And is that similar to pricing of like a fantasy football app like a of like a fantasy football app like a of like a fantasy football app like a FanDuel or whatever? I I'm I don't I FanDuel or whatever? I I'm I don't I FanDuel or whatever? I I'm I don't I don't really watch sports, so I don't don't really watch sports, so I don't don't really watch sports, so I don't know much about fantasy [laughter] know much about fantasy [laughter] know much about fantasy [laughter] sports. So I don't know if FanDuel is a sports. So I don't know if FanDuel is a sports. So I don't know if FanDuel is a betting thing or fantasy or what.

betting thing or fantasy or what. betting thing or fantasy or what. Uh it Well, it's like kind of both. So, Uh it Well, it's like kind of both. So, Uh it Well, it's like kind of both. So, that's how most uh fantasy sports apps that's how most uh fantasy sports apps that's how most uh fantasy sports apps make their money is based off of um make their money is based off of um make their money is based off of um betting. So, I you know, I haven't done betting. So, I you know, I haven't done betting. So, I you know, I haven't done those myself, honestly. I think it's those myself, honestly. I think it's those myself, honestly. I think it's usually uh you sign up for free and then usually uh you sign up for free and then usually uh you sign up for free and then uh you add your account and put money uh you add your account and put money uh you add your account and put money into it or you pay you like pay to enter into it or you pay you like pay to enter into it or you pay you like pay to enter a league and if you win you get like a a league and if you win you get like a a league and if you win you get like a prize or whatever and they take a prize or whatever and they take a prize or whatever and they take a percentage of that money or something percentage of that money or something percentage of that money or something like that. So, like that. So, like that. So, I see. I see. I see. They're most of them are not paytoplay They're most of them are not paytoplay They're most of them are not paytoplay I'll say. I'll say. I'll say. Right. That's what I was thinking. I Right. That's what I was thinking. I Right. That's what I was thinking. I mean most, you know, there really isn't mean most, you know, there really isn't mean most, you know, there really isn't B to B TOC SAS. It's arguable if there B to B TOC SAS. It's arguable if there B to B TOC SAS. It's arguable if there are any B TOC SAS apps that are at, you are any B TOC SAS apps that are at, you are any B TOC SAS apps that are at, you know, at scale. And so because they just know, at scale. And so because they just know, at scale. And so because they just tend to use the free model and then have tend to use the free model and then have tend to use the free model and then have some model like that, right? It's either some model like that, right? It's either some model like that, right? It's either going to advertising or it's monetizing going to advertising or it's monetizing going to advertising or it's monetizing something that's not the the people something that's not the the people something that's not the the people because consumers are just so cheap. Um, because consumers are just so cheap. Um, because consumers are just so cheap. Um, did you consider a model like that that did you consider a model like that that did you consider a model like that that you know more like the fantasy football you know more like the fantasy football you know more like the fantasy football model where people do you know model where people do you know model where people do you know contribute and then take you take a cut?

contribute and then take you take a cut? contribute and then take you take a cut? Um, so initially I'll say in when I Um, so initially I'll say in when I Um, so initially I'll say in when I first quit my job in 2018, I was first quit my job in 2018, I was first quit my job in 2018, I was thinking well originally that version thinking well originally that version thinking well originally that version too that was my MVP that was based off too that was my MVP that was based off too that was my MVP that was based off of the midterm elections in 2018 and I of the midterm elections in 2018 and I of the midterm elections in 2018 and I was thinking okay so it'll be fremium was thinking okay so it'll be fremium was thinking okay so it'll be fremium because I didn't know any better. I because I didn't know any better. I because I didn't know any better. I thought anything, you know, I thought thought anything, you know, I thought thought anything, you know, I thought every app had to be premium honestly and every app had to be premium honestly and every app had to be premium honestly and I was thinking okay it'll be premium and I was thinking okay it'll be premium and I was thinking okay it'll be premium and then I'll make money. I'll try to follow then I'll make money. I'll try to follow then I'll make money. I'll try to follow this fantasy sports style. Uh, you know, this fantasy sports style. Uh, you know, this fantasy sports style. Uh, you know, like people can win money off of it or like people can win money off of it or like people can win money off of it or whatever. And I consulted some lawyers whatever. And I consulted some lawyers whatever. And I consulted some lawyers and the lawyers were like, "You and the lawyers were like, "You and the lawyers were like, "You definitely cannot do that. Do not do definitely cannot do that. Do not do definitely cannot do that. Do not do that unless you have a lot of money to that unless you have a lot of money to that unless you have a lot of money to spend on licenses and legal fees and spend on licenses and legal fees and spend on licenses and legal fees and whatnot." And I was like, "Okay, I won't whatnot." And I was like, "Okay, I won't whatnot." And I was like, "Okay, I won't I won't do that then." Um, right. So, I I won't do that then." Um, right. So, I I won't do that then." Um, right. So, I then I thought like I'd do the normal then I thought like I'd do the normal then I thought like I'd do the normal premium approach, which is where you can premium approach, which is where you can premium approach, which is where you can sign up for free and then if you want sign up for free and then if you want sign up for free and then if you want extra features, you'll pay for them. you extra features, you'll pay for them. you extra features, you'll pay for them. you know, there will be like a a special know, there will be like a a special know, there will be like a a special better account that you can sign up for better account that you can sign up for better account that you can sign up for and upgrade. Um, I never got to that and upgrade. Um, I never got to that and upgrade. Um, I never got to that point obviously because Fremium is it's point obviously because Fremium is it's point obviously because Fremium is it's so hard just to ship something, so hard just to ship something, so hard just to ship something, especially like the very first time especially like the very first time especially like the very first time you're shipping something like this and you're shipping something like this and you're shipping something like this and so I never got to that point to like so I never got to that point to like so I never got to that point to like create extra features. Um but yeah, so I create extra features. Um but yeah, so I create extra features. Um but yeah, so I did kind of explore the did kind of explore the did kind of explore the uh the fantasy more traditional fantasy uh the fantasy more traditional fantasy uh the fantasy more traditional fantasy sports style aspect of it and walked sports style aspect of it and walked sports style aspect of it and walked away from it quickly. [laughter] away from it quickly. [laughter] away from it quickly. [laughter] Yeah. And that makes sense. And there Yeah. And that makes sense. And there Yeah. And that makes sense. And there are a lot of businesses that work at are a lot of businesses that work at are a lot of businesses that work at scale or that work with a lot of funding

scale or that work with a lot of funding scale or that work with a lot of funding or that work with, you know, again at or that work with, you know, again at or that work with, you know, again at scale with a million users that that scale with a million users that that scale with a million users that that just aren't they don't make sense when just aren't they don't make sense when just aren't they don't make sense when you have a hundred or 500 users and you you have a hundred or 500 users and you you have a hundred or 500 users and you either have to monetize them differently either have to monetize them differently either have to monetize them differently or or they just don't work. You know, or or they just don't work. You know, or or they just don't work. You know, there are eBay e eBay doesn't work with there are eBay e eBay doesn't work with there are eBay e eBay doesn't work with 500 people using it, right? You need 500 people using it, right? You need 500 people using it, right? You need millions of people. You need the network millions of people. You need the network millions of people. You need the network effect. Facebook doesn't work with 500 effect. Facebook doesn't work with 500 effect. Facebook doesn't work with 500 people unless it's a really tight-knit people unless it's a really tight-knit people unless it's a really tight-knit group. It's only at Harvard or whatever. group. It's only at Harvard or whatever. group. It's only at Harvard or whatever. Um, and obviously, you know, fantasy Um, and obviously, you know, fantasy Um, and obviously, you know, fantasy sports, a fantasy sports site with only sports, a fantasy sports site with only sports, a fantasy sports site with only a few hundred people on it is probably a few hundred people on it is probably a few hundred people on it is probably more is it's probably, you know, a much more is it's probably, you know, a much more is it's probably, you know, a much more challenging thing to run. But it more challenging thing to run. But it more challenging thing to run. But it sounds like that there was an inflection sounds like that there was an inflection sounds like that there was an inflection point as you were building this where point as you were building this where point as you were building this where you became aware of of uh the worth of you became aware of of uh the worth of you became aware of of uh the worth of Fantasy Congress for educators and you Fantasy Congress for educators and you Fantasy Congress for educators and you specifically said like civics specifically said like civics specifically said like civics instructors. Um, how did you how did how instructors. Um, how did you how did how instructors. Um, how did you how did how did you find that out first off? And I did you find that out first off? And I did you find that out first off? And I guess perhaps uh you know secondly is it guess perhaps uh you know secondly is it guess perhaps uh you know secondly is it is it university or is it uh more high is it university or is it uh more high is it university or is it uh more high school level folks? school level folks? school level folks? Uh it's more high school focused.

Uh it's more high school focused. Uh it's more high school focused. Although I have I mean I've had Although I have I mean I've had Although I have I mean I've had professors from West Point reach out to professors from West Point reach out to professors from West Point reach out to me. I've had a few different uh college me. I've had a few different uh college me. I've had a few different uh college professors reach out to me. So there's professors reach out to me. So there's professors reach out to me. So there's interest there as well. Yeah. Uh, so interest there as well. Yeah. Uh, so interest there as well. Yeah. Uh, so what happened in 2018 was I was trying what happened in 2018 was I was trying what happened in 2018 was I was trying to build this premium app and I got to to build this premium app and I got to to build this premium app and I got to the beginning of the fall and I was the beginning of the fall and I was the beginning of the fall and I was obviously nowhere. I wasn't in any obviously nowhere. I wasn't in any obviously nowhere. I wasn't in any position to start charging for upgraded position to start charging for upgraded position to start charging for upgraded features. Um, so I was kind of like, h features. Um, so I was kind of like, h features. Um, so I was kind of like, h well, I don't know. I'm just going to well, I don't know. I'm just going to well, I don't know. I'm just going to try to write this out and then figure it try to write this out and then figure it try to write this out and then figure it out after that. And I had always thought out after that. And I had always thought out after that. And I had always thought like educators might be interested in like educators might be interested in like educators might be interested in fantasy congress. I just didn't know how fantasy congress. I just didn't know how fantasy congress. I just didn't know how to begin reaching them. I thought that to begin reaching them. I thought that to begin reaching them. I thought that they would need like all kinds of crazy they would need like all kinds of crazy they would need like all kinds of crazy extra features. So, what happened was extra features. So, what happened was extra features. So, what happened was they actually found me, which is crazy they actually found me, which is crazy they actually found me, which is crazy because I maybe did like $50 worth of because I maybe did like $50 worth of because I maybe did like $50 worth of Reddit ads and that was all the Reddit ads and that was all the Reddit ads and that was all the marketing that I did for Fantasy marketing that I did for Fantasy marketing that I did for Fantasy Congress in 2018. But somehow they found Congress in 2018. But somehow they found Congress in 2018. But somehow they found me and Labor Day weekend it got shared me and Labor Day weekend it got shared me and Labor Day weekend it got shared on a Facebook group of 4,500 AP on a Facebook group of 4,500 AP on a Facebook group of 4,500 AP government teachers and they just went government teachers and they just went government teachers and they just went crazy for it. Uh they all signed up at crazy for it. Uh they all signed up at crazy for it. Uh they all signed up at once that Tuesday after Labor Day. They once that Tuesday after Labor Day. They once that Tuesday after Labor Day. They were all trying to get their students were all trying to get their students were all trying to get their students onto the app and I had this like really onto the app and I had this like really onto the app and I had this like really janky draft like live draft app that I janky draft like live draft app that I janky draft like live draft app that I had written with websockets. I'd never had written with websockets. I'd never had written with websockets. I'd never used websockets before. So, like all of used websockets before. So, like all of used websockets before. So, like all of these classes were trying to draft at these classes were trying to draft at these classes were trying to draft at once and they were crashing my app. Um, once and they were crashing my app. Um, once and they were crashing my app. Um, so I kind of just like shut everything

so I kind of just like shut everything so I kind of just like shut everything down, sent everybody an email and I was down, sent everybody an email and I was down, sent everybody an email and I was like, "Whoa, I don't know where you all like, "Whoa, I don't know where you all like, "Whoa, I don't know where you all came from, but you all found me and we came from, but you all found me and we came from, but you all found me and we just need to take a breather here." Um, just need to take a breather here." Um, just need to take a breather here." Um, so I found out they all came from this so I found out they all came from this so I found out they all came from this Facebook group. And I kind of just like Facebook group. And I kind of just like Facebook group. And I kind of just like that Tuesday after I shut everything that Tuesday after I shut everything that Tuesday after I shut everything down, sent everybody an email, was like, down, sent everybody an email, was like, down, sent everybody an email, was like, "We're having issues. We'll figure it "We're having issues. We'll figure it "We're having issues. We'll figure it out." out." out." I was just kind of like, okay, this I was just kind of like, okay, this I was just kind of like, okay, this seems like an opportunity I need to ask seems like an opportunity I need to ask seems like an opportunity I need to ask for money here because these people seem for money here because these people seem for money here because these people seem really really motivated. Maybe like really really motivated. Maybe like really really motivated. Maybe like educators could be part of like I could educators could be part of like I could educators could be part of like I could pivot to focusing on educators. If pivot to focusing on educators. If pivot to focusing on educators. If they'll pay me, I will pivot to them. they'll pay me, I will pivot to them. they'll pay me, I will pivot to them. So, I started asking for money and they So, I started asking for money and they So, I started asking for money and they paid and I was like, okay, this seems paid and I was like, okay, this seems paid and I was like, okay, this seems viable. I think I just I think I just viable. I think I just I think I just viable. I think I just I think I just validated. Yeah, that's a cool story and it's one Yeah, that's a cool story and it's one of those that, you know, I often talk of those that, you know, I often talk of those that, you know, I often talk about like the path to success involves about like the path to success involves about like the path to success involves hard work, luck, and skill in varying hard work, luck, and skill in varying hard work, luck, and skill in varying combinations depending on depending on combinations depending on depending on combinations depending on depending on your story, you know, and it's obvious your story, you know, and it's obvious your story, you know, and it's obvious you were putting in hard work to build you were putting in hard work to build you were putting in hard work to build this and you had built up the skills of this and you had built up the skills of this and you had built up the skills of being a developer and then you started being a developer and then you started being a developer and then you started building up the ability to ship product building up the ability to ship product building up the ability to ship product and everything. Um, and you got a little and everything. Um, and you got a little and everything. Um, and you got a little lucky with a with someone posting to a lucky with a with someone posting to a lucky with a with someone posting to a Facebook group. you know, someone Facebook group. you know, someone Facebook group. you know, someone discovers you based on $50 of ads or discovers you based on $50 of ads or discovers you based on $50 of ads or maybe it was something entire, maybe maybe it was something entire, maybe maybe it was something entire, maybe they just, you know, Googled you and they just, you know, Googled you and they just, you know, Googled you and found you. So then that leads to now you found you. So then that leads to now you found you. So then that leads to now you have these two different, you know, have these two different, you know, have these two different, you know, customer segments. You have the customer segments. You have the customer segments. You have the consumers that you mentioned earlier, 19 consumers that you mentioned earlier, 19 consumers that you mentioned earlier, 19 bucks a month, and you have the bucks a month, and you have the bucks a month, and you have the educators, educators, educators, 149 a year.

149 a year. 149 a year. Um, it brings us to last month where you Um, it brings us to last month where you Um, it brings us to last month where you you posted a blog post and you said you you posted a blog post and you said you you posted a blog post and you said you hit $1,000 in revenue, just over $1,000 hit $1,000 in revenue, just over $1,000 hit $1,000 in revenue, just over $1,000 and like 550 of that was recurring and like 550 of that was recurring and like 550 of that was recurring revenue. Um, but at the end of the post revenue. Um, but at the end of the post revenue. Um, but at the end of the post you said Fantasy Congress is is still my you said Fantasy Congress is is still my you said Fantasy Congress is is still my passion, but it's time for a break. I'm passion, but it's time for a break. I'm passion, but it's time for a break. I'm curious what you mean by a break. Like curious what you mean by a break. Like curious what you mean by a break. Like what does a break mean to you and and what does a break mean to you and and what does a break mean to you and and why did you come to that decision? why did you come to that decision? why did you come to that decision? Yeah. So, to me, a break means I've I've Yeah. So, to me, a break means I've I've Yeah. So, to me, a break means I've I've been grinding on this full-time and just been grinding on this full-time and just been grinding on this full-time and just it's been my one and only. Um, so to me, it's been my one and only. Um, so to me, it's been my one and only. Um, so to me, a break means I'm just going to like a break means I'm just going to like a break means I'm just going to like probably, you know, I don't have any probably, you know, I don't have any probably, you know, I don't have any features planned to ship out in the next features planned to ship out in the next features planned to ship out in the next two weeks. Usually, it's like, oh, I two weeks. Usually, it's like, oh, I two weeks. Usually, it's like, oh, I know exactly what I need to do today. I know exactly what I need to do today. I know exactly what I need to do today. I know exactly what I need to do tomorrow. know exactly what I need to do tomorrow. know exactly what I need to do tomorrow. It's work, work, work, work, work. And It's work, work, work, work, work. And It's work, work, work, work, work. And I'm kind of just right now I'm just kind I'm kind of just right now I'm just kind I'm kind of just right now I'm just kind of taking a step back to assess and of taking a step back to assess and of taking a step back to assess and reflect on what where you know where reflect on what where you know where reflect on what where you know where should I like send my energy next kind should I like send my energy next kind should I like send my energy next kind of. I came to that decision because so I of. I came to that decision because so I of. I came to that decision because so I was doing like contracting work to was doing like contracting work to was doing like contracting work to support myself and that ended in June support myself and that ended in June support myself and that ended in June and I thought hey you know I don't have and I thought hey you know I don't have and I thought hey you know I don't have anything lined up. I have some savings anything lined up. I have some savings anything lined up. I have some savings built up. I this environment that we're built up. I this environment that we're built up. I this environment that we're in right now with all the educators in right now with all the educators in right now with all the educators moving online and the political moving online and the political moving online and the political environment and the election coming up, environment and the election coming up, environment and the election coming up, it really seems like Fantasy Congress it really seems like Fantasy Congress it really seems like Fantasy Congress could really take off this year. So, I'm could really take off this year. So, I'm could really take off this year. So, I'm just what if I, you know, take some time just what if I, you know, take some time just what if I, you know, take some time to just focus hard and completely on to just focus hard and completely on to just focus hard and completely on Fantasy Congress, go, you know,

Fantasy Congress, go, you know, Fantasy Congress, go, you know, full-time on that. I set a goal to reach full-time on that. I set a goal to reach full-time on that. I set a goal to reach ramen profitability by the end of ramen profitability by the end of ramen profitability by the end of October. And last month, even though I October. And last month, even though I October. And last month, even though I made, you know, almost 1,200 in revenue made, you know, almost 1,200 in revenue made, you know, almost 1,200 in revenue just in last month when I was looking just in last month when I was looking just in last month when I was looking about how I made that revenue, I didn't about how I made that revenue, I didn't about how I made that revenue, I didn't feel like I could replicate it and let feel like I could replicate it and let feel like I could replicate it and let alone like double or triple it uh in alone like double or triple it uh in alone like double or triple it uh in October. So, it was kind of like, hey, October. So, it was kind of like, hey, October. So, it was kind of like, hey, I'm not going to reach my goal. So, I'm not going to reach my goal. So, I'm not going to reach my goal. So, let's just kind of like take a step back let's just kind of like take a step back let's just kind of like take a step back and reassess what happened and then, you and reassess what happened and then, you and reassess what happened and then, you know, pick it up in a couple of weeks or know, pick it up in a couple of weeks or know, pick it up in a couple of weeks or a month and then go in a new direction. a month and then go in a new direction. a month and then go in a new direction. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah, working for something, working on Yeah, working for something, working on Yeah, working for something, working on something for two and a half years and something for two and a half years and something for two and a half years and not having the traction you want is not having the traction you want is not having the traction you want is hard. And I feel like a break hard. And I feel like a break hard. And I feel like a break um I feel like that could re-energize um I feel like that could re-energize um I feel like that could re-energize you given how much passion you've had you given how much passion you've had you given how much passion you've had for this thing over two and a half for this thing over two and a half for this thing over two and a half years. Do you feel like that's what it's years. Do you feel like that's what it's years. Do you feel like that's what it's going to give you if you take a step going to give you if you take a step going to give you if you take a step back for a month or two that you'll come back for a month or two that you'll come back for a month or two that you'll come back uh kind of re-energized? or do you back uh kind of re-energized? or do you back uh kind of re-energized? or do you think it will offer you, you know, new think it will offer you, you know, new think it will offer you, you know, new ideas that you come up with while you're ideas that you come up with while you're ideas that you come up with while you're kind of having that downtime? What do kind of having that downtime? What do kind of having that downtime? What do you hope to get out of that out of that you hope to get out of that out of that you hope to get out of that out of that break?

break? break? Uh, this is just like something that Uh, this is just like something that Uh, this is just like something that I've always done. I've always done. I've always done. Anytime I start to feel burnt out or Anytime I start to feel burnt out or Anytime I start to feel burnt out or stressed out about something, and not to stressed out about something, and not to stressed out about something, and not to say I was like totally burnt out on say I was like totally burnt out on say I was like totally burnt out on Fantasy Congress, but you know, when you Fantasy Congress, but you know, when you Fantasy Congress, but you know, when you go really hard and you have a goal in go really hard and you have a goal in go really hard and you have a goal in mind and you don't reach it, like that's mind and you don't reach it, like that's mind and you don't reach it, like that's a bit defeating. So, anytime I've set a a bit defeating. So, anytime I've set a a bit defeating. So, anytime I've set a big goal for myself and been a little big goal for myself and been a little big goal for myself and been a little disappointed that I don't meet it, I disappointed that I don't meet it, I disappointed that I don't meet it, I always just kind of like take a break. always just kind of like take a break. always just kind of like take a break. This is just something, you know, I when This is just something, you know, I when This is just something, you know, I when I was teaching myself to code and trying I was teaching myself to code and trying I was teaching myself to code and trying to get a job, I like did this, too. And to get a job, I like did this, too. And to get a job, I like did this, too. And I always felt like my biggest I always felt like my biggest I always felt like my biggest breakthroughs came when I was taking breakthroughs came when I was taking breakthroughs came when I was taking those breaks. It was kind of like, you those breaks. It was kind of like, you those breaks. It was kind of like, you know, not actually giving up or know, not actually giving up or know, not actually giving up or whatever, but just kind of like throwing whatever, but just kind of like throwing whatever, but just kind of like throwing up my hands and just like not thinking up my hands and just like not thinking up my hands and just like not thinking about it and pouting, you know, and just about it and pouting, you know, and just about it and pouting, you know, and just walking away. and then, you know, I'd walking away. and then, you know, I'd walking away. and then, you know, I'd like be washing the dishes or something like be washing the dishes or something like be washing the dishes or something and like a big breakthrough would come and like a big breakthrough would come and like a big breakthrough would come to me. So, it's more just about letting to me. So, it's more just about letting to me. So, it's more just about letting my brain decompress and just giving my brain decompress and just giving my brain decompress and just giving myself time to reflect, too. I think myself time to reflect, too. I think myself time to reflect, too. I think sometimes I get too deep into my coding sometimes I get too deep into my coding sometimes I get too deep into my coding bubble and I'm just so focused on bubble and I'm just so focused on bubble and I'm just so focused on shipping features or whatever. And, you shipping features or whatever. And, you shipping features or whatever. And, you know, in the past like week or two, I've know, in the past like week or two, I've know, in the past like week or two, I've kind of been doing just this reflection kind of been doing just this reflection kind of been doing just this reflection and not not actively. It's always on my and not not actively. It's always on my and not not actively. It's always on my mind. You know, your business is always mind. You know, your business is always mind. You know, your business is always like in the back of your mind. You're like in the back of your mind. You're like in the back of your mind. You're always thinking about it, but not always thinking about it, but not always thinking about it, but not actively like sitting down with a pencil actively like sitting down with a pencil actively like sitting down with a pencil and paper and like trying to figure out and paper and like trying to figure out and paper and like trying to figure out problems. And I've just kind of like problems. And I've just kind of like problems. And I've just kind of like been reflecting. It's like, oh, you been reflecting. It's like, oh, you been reflecting. It's like, oh, you know, I should probably reach out and know, I should probably reach out and know, I should probably reach out and talk to my current customers and get talk to my current customers and get talk to my current customers and get some feedback from them. So sometimes some feedback from them. So sometimes some feedback from them. So sometimes when you're too deep in the weeds, it's

when you're too deep in the weeds, it's when you're too deep in the weeds, it's hard to see the obvious stuff. So, it's hard to see the obvious stuff. So, it's hard to see the obvious stuff. So, it's kind of just like pulling back and kind of just like pulling back and kind of just like pulling back and taking a break and looking at the big taking a break and looking at the big taking a break and looking at the big picture. I guess that's how I look at picture. I guess that's how I look at picture. I guess that's how I look at it. it. it. Yeah, I think that's good advice. And I Yeah, I think that's good advice. And I Yeah, I think that's good advice. And I see I think that's something I do well see I think that's something I do well see I think that's something I do well in the short term. Like during a day, I in the short term. Like during a day, I in the short term. Like during a day, I find myself fatigued. I walk away. I do find myself fatigued. I walk away. I do find myself fatigued. I walk away. I do the dishes. I make lunch. I walk the the dishes. I make lunch. I walk the the dishes. I make lunch. I walk the dog. I'm really bad at it uh in the way dog. I'm really bad at it uh in the way dog. I'm really bad at it uh in the way that you're doing it where I if I'm that you're doing it where I if I'm that you're doing it where I if I'm grinding on something and I'm not making grinding on something and I'm not making grinding on something and I'm not making progress for weeks or months for that progress for weeks or months for that progress for weeks or months for that matter. I need to get better. And I matter. I need to get better. And I matter. I need to get better. And I think if you're watching this or think if you're watching this or think if you're watching this or listening to it, I think it's something listening to it, I think it's something listening to it, I think it's something to be aware of in yourself is taking a to be aware of in yourself is taking a to be aware of in yourself is taking a week off, two weeks off, three weeks week off, two weeks off, three weeks week off, two weeks off, three weeks off. Maybe it's completely from work or off. Maybe it's completely from work or off. Maybe it's completely from work or maybe it's just from that task or maybe maybe it's just from that task or maybe maybe it's just from that task or maybe it's that project if you have the luxury it's that project if you have the luxury it's that project if you have the luxury to do it. And you know, if you're an to do it. And you know, if you're an to do it. And you know, if you're an entrepreneur, you you you may or may not entrepreneur, you you you may or may not entrepreneur, you you you may or may not depending on the situation you're in. depending on the situation you're in. depending on the situation you're in. I think that's that's good advice. We do I think that's that's good advice. We do I think that's that's good advice. We do have a question from the audience. Po have a question from the audience. Po have a question from the audience. Po actually, we have a couple questions. actually, we have a couple questions. actually, we have a couple questions. So, Pablo asks, "Did you ever evaluate So, Pablo asks, "Did you ever evaluate So, Pablo asks, "Did you ever evaluate selling it as a as part of a path selling it as a as part of a path selling it as a as part of a path forward?"

forward?" forward?" Um, that's something that I would be Um, that's something that I would be Um, that's something that I would be open to eventually in the future, but I open to eventually in the future, but I open to eventually in the future, but I wouldn't want to sell it right now. I wouldn't want to sell it right now. I wouldn't want to sell it right now. I haven't I I don't know if anyone would haven't I I don't know if anyone would haven't I I don't know if anyone would want to buy it as is right now. I feel want to buy it as is right now. I feel want to buy it as is right now. I feel like I haven't figured out any of the like I haven't figured out any of the like I haven't figured out any of the obvious problems that someone who's obvious problems that someone who's obvious problems that someone who's looking to buy a business would be looking to buy a business would be looking to buy a business would be looking for. So, I mean, I haven't been looking for. So, I mean, I haven't been looking for. So, I mean, I haven't been approached by anybody, but again, too, approached by anybody, but again, too, approached by anybody, but again, too, like this is my passion. This is my like this is my passion. This is my like this is my passion. This is my baby. So, I wouldn't want to sell it baby. So, I wouldn't want to sell it baby. So, I wouldn't want to sell it unless I feel like it's in a really good unless I feel like it's in a really good unless I feel like it's in a really good place. place. place. All right. Very good. And then Pablo All right. Very good. And then Pablo All right. Very good. And then Pablo asked another question. and he said, asked another question. and he said, asked another question. and he said, "When you were finding uh contracting "When you were finding uh contracting "When you were finding uh contracting assignments, um how did those potential assignments, um how did those potential assignments, um how did those potential customers or potential clients react to customers or potential clients react to customers or potential clients react to you having a startup on the side? Or did you having a startup on the side? Or did you having a startup on the side? Or did you not, you know, or did you not tell you not, you know, or did you not tell you not, you know, or did you not tell them that you were running Fantasy them that you were running Fantasy them that you were running Fantasy Congress when you signed up to do Congress when you signed up to do Congress when you signed up to do contract work for them?" contract work for them?" contract work for them?" Um, it was a huge benefit to me. People Um, it was a huge benefit to me. People Um, it was a huge benefit to me. People loved hearing about it. Honestly, I feel loved hearing about it. Honestly, I feel loved hearing about it. Honestly, I feel like half the jobs I got was just like half the jobs I got was just like half the jobs I got was just because I'm the fantasy congress girl.

because I'm the fantasy congress girl. because I'm the fantasy congress girl. Like it was so, you know, you hear about Like it was so, you know, you hear about Like it was so, you know, you hear about that and like people remember you first that and like people remember you first that and like people remember you first of all because that's very unique and of all because that's very unique and of all because that's very unique and silly and uh people, you know, and then silly and uh people, you know, and then silly and uh people, you know, and then you have like this work out there that you have like this work out there that you have like this work out there that you can show people like, hey, and a lot you can show people like, hey, and a lot you can show people like, hey, and a lot of people who are hiring too are of people who are hiring too are of people who are hiring too are business owners, you know, so business business owners, you know, so business business owners, you know, so business owners are more likely to trust other owners are more likely to trust other owners are more likely to trust other business owners. I feel um when you're business owners. I feel um when you're business owners. I feel um when you're doing I don't I don't know if it's so doing I don't I don't know if it's so doing I don't I don't know if it's so much you know in the corporate world. So much you know in the corporate world. So much you know in the corporate world. So if I was trying to go back and get like if I was trying to go back and get like if I was trying to go back and get like a full-time job I think people might be a full-time job I think people might be a full-time job I think people might be a little wary because it's like oh is a little wary because it's like oh is a little wary because it's like oh is she going to quit the job you know in she going to quit the job you know in she going to quit the job you know in six months if this takes off but with six months if this takes off but with six months if this takes off but with contract work people were like oh I know contract work people were like oh I know contract work people were like oh I know how long I have you and you know how to how long I have you and you know how to how long I have you and you know how to ship. So ship. So ship. So it seemed to be a huge benefit. People it seemed to be a huge benefit. People it seemed to be a huge benefit. People people really it really resonated with people really it really resonated with people really it really resonated with people. people. people. I remember in my early days of as I I remember in my early days of as I I remember in my early days of as I switched away from uh well it was I switched away from uh well it was I switched away from uh well it was I guess I had been a contractor then I guess I had been a contractor then I guess I had been a contractor then I took a salary job and I was switching took a salary job and I was switching took a salary job and I was switching back to contracting. This is like 17 back to contracting. This is like 17 back to contracting. This is like 17 years ago. Um I launched a couple things years ago. Um I launched a couple things years ago. Um I launched a couple things on that a couple small side projects and on that a couple small side projects and on that a couple small side projects and the fact that they were out in the world the fact that they were out in the world the fact that they were out in the world and that they were u being used and that and that they were u being used and that and that they were u being used and that they did have some small amount of they did have some small amount of they did have some small amount of revenue and that they were in revenue and that they were in revenue and that they were in production, you know, just all these production, you know, just all these production, you know, just all these things really did impress people a lot things really did impress people a lot things really did impress people a lot more than I felt like it should. It was more than I felt like it should. It was more than I felt like it should. It was like this wasn't actually, you know, at like this wasn't actually, you know, at like this wasn't actually, you know, at least my stuff was stuff I built and you least my stuff was stuff I built and you least my stuff was stuff I built and you know, I spent three weeks and coded at know, I spent three weeks and coded at know, I spent three weeks and coded at nights and weekends and stuff. Fantasy nights and weekends and stuff. Fantasy nights and weekends and stuff. Fantasy Congress, two and a half years, that's Congress, two and a half years, that's Congress, two and a half years, that's that's another story.

that's another story. that's another story. I man when I look at Fantasy Congress I I man when I look at Fantasy Congress I I man when I look at Fantasy Congress I I see I see I see such opportunity with like just the such opportunity with like just the such opportunity with like just the social media like I the Facebook group social media like I the Facebook group social media like I the Facebook group post you talked about is exactly how I post you talked about is exactly how I post you talked about is exactly how I think this this virality of this the think this this virality of this the think this this virality of this the viral potential with these rabid fans viral potential with these rabid fans viral potential with these rabid fans you know is is how I feel like um like you know is is how I feel like um like you know is is how I feel like um like the way this has to be grown you know the way this has to be grown you know the way this has to be grown you know when you watch like FanDuel only when you watch like FanDuel only when you watch like FanDuel only advertises on TV because now they have advertises on TV because now they have advertises on TV because now they have buckets the money, most of it, you know, buckets the money, most of it, you know, buckets the money, most of it, you know, venture capital. I'm guessing they're venture capital. I'm guessing they're venture capital. I'm guessing they're not profitable yet, but even if they not profitable yet, but even if they not profitable yet, but even if they are, it's cuz they've hit scale. In are, it's cuz they've hit scale. In are, it's cuz they've hit scale. In those early days, all these fantasy those early days, all these fantasy those early days, all these fantasy league folks, they they go after um, you league folks, they they go after um, you league folks, they they go after um, you know, content marketing. They do they know, content marketing. They do they know, content marketing. They do they could do PR. It's something that so many could do PR. It's something that so many could do PR. It's something that so many B2B SAS founders can't do because we run B2B SAS founders can't do because we run B2B SAS founders can't do because we run boring businesses. Who what PR what PR boring businesses. Who what PR what PR boring businesses. Who what PR what PR uh outlet, you know, what news org or uh outlet, you know, what news org or uh outlet, you know, what news org or magazine or um anything wants to write magazine or um anything wants to write magazine or um anything wants to write about a new email service provider? None about a new email service provider? None about a new email service provider? None of them. However, you were just recently of them. However, you were just recently of them. However, you were just recently covered uh or by you, I mean Fantasy covered uh or by you, I mean Fantasy covered uh or by you, I mean Fantasy Congress were just recently covered in Congress were just recently covered in Congress were just recently covered in roll call.com, which is a news site for, roll call.com, which is a news site for, roll call.com, which is a news site for, you know, US government uh stuff. Did you know, US government uh stuff. Did you know, US government uh stuff. Did that did you seek that out or did they that did you seek that out or did they that did you seek that out or did they just discover it and decide to write just discover it and decide to write just discover it and decide to write about you?

about you? about you? This is so funny. Um so in July my big This is so funny. Um so in July my big This is so funny. Um so in July my big thing was my big focus was press because thing was my big focus was press because thing was my big focus was press because I agree like people always tell me oh I agree like people always tell me oh I agree like people always tell me oh this has such a chance to go viral. What this has such a chance to go viral. What this has such a chance to go viral. What I've learned though uh from a little bit I've learned though uh from a little bit I've learned though uh from a little bit of research is that virality is actually of research is that virality is actually of research is that virality is actually depreciative. So we kind of think depreciative. So we kind of think depreciative. So we kind of think think of virality as this thing where um think of virality as this thing where um think of virality as this thing where um you know I post something then all my you know I post something then all my you know I post something then all my friends see it and then they post it and friends see it and then they post it and friends see it and then they post it and it grows and grows. But actually in it grows and grows. But actually in it grows and grows. But actually in reality when they've studied studied reality when they've studied studied reality when they've studied studied virality um it's more somebody with a virality um it's more somebody with a virality um it's more somebody with a gigantic audience shares it and then gigantic audience shares it and then gigantic audience shares it and then like from that gigantic audience it kind like from that gigantic audience it kind like from that gigantic audience it kind of like putters out you know so like of like putters out you know so like of like putters out you know so like people retweet it and people retweet it people retweet it and people retweet it people retweet it and people retweet it becomes less and less and less. So I do becomes less and less and less. So I do becomes less and less and less. So I do think it has like a good chance to go think it has like a good chance to go think it has like a good chance to go viral. Um in July I focused on press. I viral. Um in July I focused on press. I viral. Um in July I focused on press. I was like soliciting a bunch of was like soliciting a bunch of was like soliciting a bunch of reporters. I didn't get anything. I got reporters. I didn't get anything. I got reporters. I didn't get anything. I got a little bit of feedback like oh this a little bit of feedback like oh this a little bit of feedback like oh this could be super interesting and then could be super interesting and then could be super interesting and then nothing ever came of it. Uh this nothing ever came of it. Uh this nothing ever came of it. Uh this reporter for roll call was actually one reporter for roll call was actually one reporter for roll call was actually one of the people that I solicited and so of the people that I solicited and so of the people that I solicited and so none of that like took off in July and I none of that like took off in July and I none of that like took off in July and I was like I'll go back and visit that was like I'll go back and visit that was like I'll go back and visit that some other time. You know it's something some other time. You know it's something some other time. You know it's something I'll go for some other time. I'll focus I'll go for some other time. I'll focus I'll go for some other time. I'll focus on some other stuff. Um, and then so on some other stuff. Um, and then so on some other stuff. Um, and then so right after I put up my September blog right after I put up my September blog right after I put up my September blog post, um, which was like last week or post, um, which was like last week or post, um, which was like last week or whatever, this reporter reached out to whatever, this reporter reached out to whatever, this reporter reached out to me on Twitter, which is where I me on Twitter, which is where I me on Twitter, which is where I initially DM'd him and he was like, initially DM'd him and he was like, initially DM'd him and he was like, "Hey, I was just about to reach out to "Hey, I was just about to reach out to "Hey, I was just about to reach out to you, but I saw that previously you had you, but I saw that previously you had you, but I saw that previously you had reached out to me. Crazy. Let's do it.

reached out to me. Crazy. Let's do it. reached out to me. Crazy. Let's do it. Let's So he I don't know how he heard Let's So he I don't know how he heard Let's So he I don't know how he heard about it eventually, but yeah, it was so about it eventually, but yeah, it was so about it eventually, but yeah, it was so funny. It was me reaching I did reach funny. It was me reaching I did reach funny. It was me reaching I did reach out to him. It didn't do anything, but out to him. It didn't do anything, but out to him. It didn't do anything, but then at some point he came across it. then at some point he came across it. then at some point he came across it. So, at least I was targeting the right So, at least I was targeting the right So, at least I was targeting the right people. people. people. Yeah, that's right. And that's that's Yeah, that's right. And that's that's Yeah, that's right. And that's that's the thing. I like your point about the thing. I like your point about the thing. I like your point about virality. When I was saying virality, I virality. When I was saying virality, I virality. When I was saying virality, I don't mean like, oh, for every person don't mean like, oh, for every person don't mean like, oh, for every person that signs up, two more uh, you know, that signs up, two more uh, you know, that signs up, two more uh, you know, are going to are going to sign up for are going to are going to sign up for are going to are going to sign up for it. That's truly a viral loop. And so I it. That's truly a viral loop. And so I it. That's truly a viral loop. And so I was misusing the word, but when I think was misusing the word, but when I think was misusing the word, but when I think about it, I think politics about it, I think politics about it, I think politics is a space that a lot of people don't is a space that a lot of people don't is a space that a lot of people don't care about, but the few people that do care about, but the few people that do care about, but the few people that do or the, you know, I say few, the tens of or the, you know, I say few, the tens of or the, you know, I say few, the tens of millions, but it's, you know, whatever millions, but it's, you know, whatever millions, but it's, you know, whatever it is, 10% of the population or some it is, 10% of the population or some it is, 10% of the population or some number, the people that are really into number, the people that are really into number, the people that are really into it, they're really into it. It's like it, they're really into it. It's like it, they're really into it. It's like sports, it's like Dungeons and Dragons, sports, it's like Dungeons and Dragons, sports, it's like Dungeons and Dragons, it's like punk music, you know, it's it's like punk music, you know, it's it's like punk music, you know, it's like they're rabid fans. And so I like like they're rabid fans. And so I like like they're rabid fans. And so I like my inclination when I look at this, I my inclination when I look at this, I my inclination when I look at this, I know you're on a break now, so I don't know you're on a break now, so I don't know you're on a break now, so I don't want to uh put a bunch of thoughts in want to uh put a bunch of thoughts in want to uh put a bunch of thoughts in your head, but the this this works or your head, but the this this works or your head, but the this this works or doesn't work based on really inexpensive doesn't work based on really inexpensive doesn't work based on really inexpensive marketing, right? Because your lifetime marketing, right? Because your lifetime marketing, right? Because your lifetime value and your your monthly costs and or value and your your monthly costs and or value and your your monthly costs and or monthly fees and all that are just too monthly fees and all that are just too monthly fees and all that are just too low to do a lot of extensive low to do a lot of extensive low to do a lot of extensive advertising. So, I think of influencers advertising. So, I think of influencers advertising. So, I think of influencers like uh I don't know if you've heard of like uh I don't know if you've heard of like uh I don't know if you've heard of Justin Robert Young, but he runs Justin Robert Young, but he runs Justin Robert Young, but he runs politics politics politics.com and he's politics politics politics.com and he's politics politics politics.com and he's just an independent he's like a blogger just an independent he's like a blogger just an independent he's like a blogger and podcaster and he talks about and podcaster and he talks about and podcaster and he talks about politics and he also talks about politics and he also talks about politics and he also talks about technology and all this other stuff. But technology and all this other stuff. But technology and all this other stuff. But I don't know how many folks like him are I don't know how many folks like him are I don't know how many folks like him are out there, but he's doing like non-stop out there, but he's doing like non-stop out there, but he's doing like non-stop daily, you know, political podcast and daily, you know, political podcast and daily, you know, political podcast and and blog posts right now about the

and blog posts right now about the and blog posts right now about the upcoming election. So, influencers like upcoming election. So, influencers like upcoming election. So, influencers like him are what you're talking about with him are what you're talking about with him are what you're talking about with that amplification, right? And it's how that amplification, right? And it's how that amplification, right? And it's how do you get do you get do you get how do you get on their radar? How do how do you get on their radar? How do how do you get on their radar? How do you get Fantasy Congress on their radar? you get Fantasy Congress on their radar? you get Fantasy Congress on their radar? As well as uh the PR angle. I think you As well as uh the PR angle. I think you As well as uh the PR angle. I think you were on the right track with that. I were on the right track with that. I were on the right track with that. I mean, I know it didn't work out in July, mean, I know it didn't work out in July, mean, I know it didn't work out in July, but who has the audience that cares but who has the audience that cares but who has the audience that cares about this kind of stuff, you know, and about this kind of stuff, you know, and about this kind of stuff, you know, and it's the press, it's folks like Justin it's the press, it's folks like Justin it's the press, it's folks like Justin Robert Young. Um, even a little I mean Robert Young. Um, even a little I mean Robert Young. Um, even a little I mean obviously the the Facebook groups that obviously the the Facebook groups that obviously the the Facebook groups that are already built cuz you building it are already built cuz you building it are already built cuz you building it one at a time with ads or you know you one at a time with ads or you know you one at a time with ads or you know you trying to pick off one at a time with trying to pick off one at a time with trying to pick off one at a time with customers I think is a pretty long road customers I think is a pretty long road customers I think is a pretty long road with an app like this given the the low with an app like this given the the low with an app like this given the the low price point. But finding the people who price point. But finding the people who price point. But finding the people who do already have have aggregated those do already have have aggregated those do already have have aggregated those people in one place um the journalists people in one place um the journalists people in one place um the journalists and and you know but you know you know and and you know but you know you know and and you know but you know you know this already because you're reaching out this already because you're reaching out this already because you're reaching out to journalists. I know that's a hard way to journalists. I know that's a hard way to journalists. I know that's a hard way to go and it's to go and it's to go and it's it it's a lot of reaching out and a lot it it's a lot of reaching out and a lot it it's a lot of reaching out and a lot of rejection and stuff, but um I do wish of rejection and stuff, but um I do wish of rejection and stuff, but um I do wish you the best of luck with it as you uh you the best of luck with it as you uh you the best of luck with it as you uh take your break, recharge, and uh figure take your break, recharge, and uh figure take your break, recharge, and uh figure out where to take it next. We are out where to take it next. We are out where to take it next. We are actually at time. So, I I really actually at time. So, I I really actually at time. So, I I really appreciate you taking the time to hang appreciate you taking the time to hang appreciate you taking the time to hang out with me for 30 minutes today. Folks out with me for 30 minutes today. Folks out with me for 30 minutes today. Folks want to reach out to you on Twitter, want to reach out to you on Twitter, want to reach out to you on Twitter, they can see your handle on the screen they can see your handle on the screen they can see your handle on the screen there. your Allison there. your Allison there. your Allison Seabolt and of course fantasy Kong on Seabolt and of course fantasy Kong on Seabolt and of course fantasy Kong on Twitter and it's fantasy congress.com.

Twitter and it's fantasy congress.com. Twitter and it's fantasy congress.com. Thanks again for joining me today. Thanks again for joining me today. Thanks again for joining me today. Yep. Thank you, Rob. Yep. Thank you, Rob. Yep. Thank you, Rob. All right, and thank you for joining us All right, and thank you for joining us All right, and thank you for joining us for yet another episode [music] of for yet another episode [music] of for yet another episode [music] of Microconf on Air. Sometime producer Microconf on Air. Sometime producer Microconf on Air. Sometime producer Sander and I will go out and figure out Sander and I will go out and figure out Sander and I will go out and figure out how [music] many episodes is this? What how [music] many episodes is this? What how [music] many episodes is this? What do we think? 40, 50? doing them first do we think? 40, 50? doing them first do we think? 40, 50? doing them first daily and then bi-weekly and [music] now daily and then bi-weekly and [music] now daily and then bi-weekly and [music] now weekly. We have something exciting weekly. We have something exciting weekly. We have something exciting coming up around SAS podcasts. We will coming up around SAS podcasts. We will coming up around SAS podcasts. We will be uh releasing more information about be uh releasing more information about be uh releasing more information about that in the next couple weeks, [music] that in the next couple weeks, [music] that in the next couple weeks, [music] but stay tuned to the MicroM Twitter but stay tuned to the MicroM Twitter but stay tuned to the MicroM Twitter account and our email list. Thanks as account and our email list. Thanks as account and our email list. Thanks as always to Hey, and Stripe [music] for always to Hey, and Stripe [music] for always to Hey, and Stripe [music] for being our headline partners for the being our headline partners for the being our headline partners for the year. And we're out. I'll see you here year. And we're out. I'll see you here year. And we're out. I'll see you here again next week. Same time, same place.