Building Multiple Products Side-by-Side: B2B & B2C Edition – Sumit Kumar – MicroConf On Air

And we are live. Welcome to today's And we are live. Welcome to today's episode of MicroConf on Air. As always, episode of MicroConf on Air. As always, episode of MicroConf on Air. As always, I am your host Rob Walling. Every I am your host Rob Walling. Every I am your host Rob Walling. Every Wednesday we live stream for 30 minutes Wednesday we live stream for 30 minutes Wednesday we live stream for 30 minutes and we talk about topics related to and we talk about topics related to and we talk about topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS building and growing ambitious SAS building and growing ambitious SAS startups that don't require us to work startups that don't require us to work startups that don't require us to work 80our weeks, raise millions in venture 80our weeks, raise millions in venture 80our weeks, raise millions in venture capital, burn ourselves out or burn our capital, burn ourselves out or burn our capital, burn ourselves out or burn our relationships. These are not the typical relationships. These are not the typical relationships. These are not the typical Silicon Valley startups where Silicon Valley startups where Silicon Valley startups where fundraising is a goal and where people fundraising is a goal and where people fundraising is a goal and where people build slide decks instead of building build slide decks instead of building build slide decks instead of building businesses. Thanks for joining us again businesses. Thanks for joining us again businesses. Thanks for joining us again this week. I'm stoked to talk to my this week. I'm stoked to talk to my this week. I'm stoked to talk to my guest today, Sumit Kumar. intro in just guest today, Sumit Kumar. intro in just guest today, Sumit Kumar. intro in just a minute. And um I got to be honest, I'm a minute. And um I got to be honest, I'm a minute. And um I got to be honest, I'm really excited about Microcom Remote, really excited about Microcom Remote, really excited about Microcom Remote, which is coming up next Tuesday. And we which is coming up next Tuesday. And we which is coming up next Tuesday. And we have locked in Jason Freed. He's going have locked in Jason Freed. He's going have locked in Jason Freed. He's going to be answering questions about the to be answering questions about the to be answering questions about the Hey.com launch, as well as SquadCast, uh Hey.com launch, as well as SquadCast, uh Hey.com launch, as well as SquadCast, uh Tiny Seed Company. They're going to be Tiny Seed Company. They're going to be Tiny Seed Company. They're going to be talking about how they blew past talking about how they blew past talking about how they blew past $100,000 in MR over the past several $100,000 in MR over the past several $100,000 in MR over the past several months. So there's a story for every months. So there's a story for every months. So there's a story for every stage of your startup, whether you are stage of your startup, whether you are stage of your startup, whether you are at your first sale, 1K MR, 10K, 100K, or at your first sale, 1K MR, 10K, 100K, or at your first sale, 1K MR, 10K, 100K, or base camp levels of revenue. And I am uh base camp levels of revenue. And I am uh base camp levels of revenue. And I am uh really excited about it. If you don't really excited about it. If you don't really excited about it. If you don't already have your ticket, you want to go already have your ticket, you want to go already have your ticket, you want to go to micro remote.com to micro remote.com to micro remote.com and uh check it out. It's going to be a and uh check it out. It's going to be a and uh check it out. It's going to be a pretty fascinating um experience. And pretty fascinating um experience. And pretty fascinating um experience. And we're we have a live studio here in we're we have a live studio here in we're we have a live studio here in Minneapolis where I'm going to be Minneapolis where I'm going to be Minneapolis where I'm going to be broadcasting, going to have some live broadcasting, going to have some live broadcasting, going to have some live guests, going to have some remote guests, going to have some remote guests, going to have some remote guests. This is not your typical virtual guests. This is not your typical virtual guests. This is not your typical virtual summit with a bunch of people in a Zoom summit with a bunch of people in a Zoom summit with a bunch of people in a Zoom room. So I really uh hope you can tune room. So I really uh hope you can tune room. So I really uh hope you can tune in and check it out. microcommote.com.

in and check it out. microcommote.com. in and check it out. microcommote.com. So in today's episode of microcom on So in today's episode of microcom on So in today's episode of microcom on air, I'm going to be talking with Sumit air, I'm going to be talking with Sumit air, I'm going to be talking with Sumit Kumar about building multiple products Kumar about building multiple products Kumar about building multiple products side by side. He has a B2B product and side by side. He has a B2B product and side by side. He has a B2B product and he has a BTOC product and he works a he has a BTOC product and he works a he has a BTOC product and he works a full-time day job. So these are both full-time day job. So these are both full-time day job. So these are both side projects. So Samit is the founder side projects. So Samit is the founder side projects. So Samit is the founder of Traor.1 of Traor.1 of Traor.1 and I'm mispronouncing that because it's and I'm mispronouncing that because it's and I'm mispronouncing that because it's a ger German word traor I think it is uh a ger German word traor I think it is uh a ger German word traor I think it is uh tr1 tr1 tr1 and he's a founder of geomman.io and he's a founder of geomman.io and he's a founder of geomman.io io and he's the head also the head of io and he's the head also the head of io and he's the head also the head of engineering his day job head of engineering his day job head of engineering his day job head of engineering at sharen now.com engineering at sharen now.com engineering at sharen now.com so um Sumi came on our radar because he so um Sumi came on our radar because he so um Sumi came on our radar because he is a prolific uh twitterer and YouTuber is a prolific uh twitterer and YouTuber is a prolific uh twitterer and YouTuber and he's talking about his side projects and he's talking about his side projects and he's talking about his side projects and there's a recent tweet where he said and there's a recent tweet where he said and there's a recent tweet where he said on my indie hackers journey I'm now on my indie hackers journey I'm now on my indie hackers journey I'm now approaching between three and 5,000 approaching between three and 5,000 approaching between three and 5,000 euros a month with two side projects euros a month with two side projects euros a month with two side projects anyone can grow their projects to a nice anyone can grow their projects to a nice anyone can grow their projects to a nice side income but of course it takes time side income but of course it takes time side income but of course it takes time and uh I'm just going to really excited and uh I'm just going to really excited and uh I'm just going to really excited to dig in with him today because you to dig in with him today because you to dig in with him today because you know there there are only so many makers know there there are only so many makers know there there are only so many makers in this world and there only so many in this world and there only so many in this world and there only so many people doing it on the side and there's people doing it on the side and there's people doing it on the side and there's only so many people doing SAS and only so many people doing SAS and only so many people doing SAS and there's only so many people that get to there's only so many people that get to there's only so many people that get to launch and he's launched two products on launch and he's launched two products on launch and he's launched two products on the side while working this day job and the side while working this day job and the side while working this day job and he he and his uh his partner have just he he and his uh his partner have just he he and his uh his partner have just had a baby 15 days ago so we very well had a baby 15 days ago so we very well had a baby 15 days ago so we very well may hear from that um lovely addition to may hear from that um lovely addition to may hear from that um lovely addition to our world in the background as we talk our world in the background as we talk our world in the background as we talk to Sumit so let's welcome Sumit to the to Sumit so let's welcome Sumit to the to Sumit so let's welcome Sumit to the program how you doing sir program how you doing sir program how you doing sir hello thank you very much I'm good hello thank you very much I'm good hello thank you very much I'm good thanks Thanks for the invite, Rob.

thanks Thanks for the invite, Rob. thanks Thanks for the invite, Rob. Absolutely, man. Great to have you on. Absolutely, man. Great to have you on. Absolutely, man. Great to have you on. Are you getting ample sleep these days Are you getting ample sleep these days Are you getting ample sleep these days with a two week old baby in the house? with a two week old baby in the house? with a two week old baby in the house? Yeah, it's pretty tough. It's pretty Yeah, it's pretty tough. It's pretty Yeah, it's pretty tough. It's pretty tough. Uh yeah, the nights I basically tough. Uh yeah, the nights I basically tough. Uh yeah, the nights I basically sleep every 3 hours for two hours or sleep every 3 hours for two hours or sleep every 3 hours for two hours or something like this. something like this. something like this. Yep. I appreciate you taking the time to Yep. I appreciate you taking the time to Yep. I appreciate you taking the time to get caffeinated and join me on this live get caffeinated and join me on this live get caffeinated and join me on this live stream today. stream today. stream today. I have to tell my partner. Yeah, I will I have to tell my partner. Yeah, I will I have to tell my partner. Yeah, I will tell her. tell her. tell her. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So um if you are in Yeah, totally. Yeah. So um if you are in Yeah, totally. Yeah. So um if you are in microcom connect go to the microcom on microcom connect go to the microcom on microcom connect go to the microcom on air channel and fire up your questions. air channel and fire up your questions. air channel and fire up your questions. That's the best part of these live That's the best part of these live That's the best part of these live streams is you know obviously I can streams is you know obviously I can streams is you know obviously I can Sumit and I can have an amazing Sumit and I can have an amazing Sumit and I can have an amazing conversation but it might as well just conversation but it might as well just conversation but it might as well just be a recorded podcast that you can be a recorded podcast that you can be a recorded podcast that you can listen to at one and a halfx if if listen to at one and a halfx if if listen to at one and a halfx if if you're not interacting and asking live you're not interacting and asking live you're not interacting and asking live questions from the folks who who are questions from the folks who who are questions from the folks who who are really you know who are deep in the really you know who are deep in the really you know who are deep in the trenches here. So um we'll get in you trenches here. So um we'll get in you trenches here. So um we'll get in you know a little little more into it but know a little little more into it but know a little little more into it but hopefully there's some live questions hopefully there's some live questions hopefully there's some live questions that come out of that. Um so I want to that come out of that. Um so I want to that come out of that. Um so I want to ask well let me give a little bit of ask well let me give a little bit of ask well let me give a little bit of background. So, geomon.io is a B2B side background. So, geomon.io is a B2B side background. So, geomon.io is a B2B side project and it's um you can create project and it's um you can create project and it's um you can create geoson geoson geoson geojson sorry directly on a map. So, the geojson sorry directly on a map. So, the geojson sorry directly on a map. So, the best way to do it is go to geomon.io and best way to do it is go to geomon.io and best way to do it is go to geomon.io and kind of see these amazing uh animated kind of see these amazing uh animated kind of see these amazing uh animated gifts he has, but it's a developer tool gifts he has, but it's a developer tool gifts he has, but it's a developer tool for embedding um like geospatial tools for embedding um like geospatial tools for embedding um like geospatial tools in your app. It's a B2B app selling to in your app. It's a B2B app selling to in your app. It's a B2B app selling to developers. And then Traor.1 developers. And then Traor.1 developers. And then Traor.1 is uh essentially stock portfolio is uh essentially stock portfolio is uh essentially stock portfolio management. Um, and it's aimed at the management. Um, and it's aimed at the management. Um, and it's aimed at the German market. Is it aimed at all of German market. Is it aimed at all of German market. Is it aimed at all of Europe or mostly German? The German Europe or mostly German? The German Europe or mostly German? The German market.

market. market. Currently, German market will expand Currently, German market will expand Currently, German market will expand soon. soon. soon. Yep. Yep. And so this is more of a BTOC Yep. Yep. And so this is more of a BTOC Yep. Yep. And so this is more of a BTOC play. Um, you know, the pricing's a lot play. Um, you know, the pricing's a lot play. Um, you know, the pricing's a lot lower. I think it's like there's a free lower. I think it's like there's a free lower. I think it's like there's a free plan and there's a 5 a month plan. And plan and there's a 5 a month plan. And plan and there's a 5 a month plan. And Sumi was explaining to me before um we Sumi was explaining to me before um we Sumi was explaining to me before um we jumped on that, you know, in in the jumped on that, you know, in in the jumped on that, you know, in in the states we have these portfolio states we have these portfolio states we have these portfolio management tools you can ow and there's management tools you can ow and there's management tools you can ow and there's an API and I can gather all you know an API and I can gather all you know an API and I can gather all you know from all my brokerage accounts into one from all my brokerage accounts into one from all my brokerage accounts into one place but in Germany they don't have place but in Germany they don't have place but in Germany they don't have that they don't have APIs. So he is that they don't have APIs. So he is that they don't have APIs. So he is literally parsing PDFs that PDF literally parsing PDFs that PDF literally parsing PDFs that PDF statements that people get um in order statements that people get um in order statements that people get um in order to try to give them a complete picture to try to give them a complete picture to try to give them a complete picture of their portfolio. So those are the of their portfolio. So those are the of their portfolio. So those are the problems that he's solving and sum I'd problems that he's solving and sum I'd problems that he's solving and sum I'd love to kick it off by finding out how love to kick it off by finding out how love to kick it off by finding out how long have you been working on on these long have you been working on on these long have you been working on on these two tools? Did did Geomman come first? two tools? Did did Geomman come first? two tools? Did did Geomman come first? Uh Geomman was first but not in its Uh Geomman was first but not in its Uh Geomman was first but not in its let's say current iteration where it let's say current iteration where it let's say current iteration where it makes money. Um makes money. Um makes money. Um Geommen I can tell you a little bit Geommen I can tell you a little bit Geommen I can tell you a little bit about the background but Trezor I about the background but Trezor I about the background but Trezor I started in January basically that and I started in January basically that and I started in January basically that and I started sharing it exactly from the started sharing it exactly from the started sharing it exactly from the beginning. Jumin is kind of a mixed bag.

beginning. Jumin is kind of a mixed bag. beginning. Jumin is kind of a mixed bag. I tried since months many months since I tried since months many months since I tried since months many months since beginning of last year to make it into a beginning of last year to make it into a beginning of last year to make it into a SAS product which failed. But now I SAS product which failed. But now I SAS product which failed. But now I think I found kind of product market fit think I found kind of product market fit think I found kind of product market fit with uh with some stuff. with uh with some stuff. with uh with some stuff. Is it is it subscription now? Is it SAS Is it is it subscription now? Is it SAS Is it is it subscription now? Is it SAS or is it a one time? or is it a one time? or is it a one time? It's no it's an annual basic it's an It's no it's an annual basic it's an It's no it's an annual basic it's an annual subscription but I don't sell a annual subscription but I don't sell a annual subscription but I don't sell a SAS product. I sell basically a license SAS product. I sell basically a license SAS product. I sell basically a license to a software. So it's a little bit to a software. So it's a little bit to a software. So it's a little bit different than than the normal SAS different than than the normal SAS different than than the normal SAS product that you would know. product that you would know. product that you would know. Sure. Sure. And it's annual. Got it. And Sure. Sure. And it's annual. Got it. And Sure. Sure. And it's annual. Got it. And so if you if you pay what what's the so if you if you pay what what's the so if you if you pay what what's the pricing on it? pricing on it? pricing on it? Uh currently the price is 10k a year but Uh currently the price is 10k a year but Uh currently the price is 10k a year but I started with like €10 a month and um I started with like €10 a month and um I started with like €10 a month and um yeah that to me that is kind of interest yeah that to me that is kind of interest yeah that to me that is kind of interest an interesting strategy that I took uh an interesting strategy that I took uh an interesting strategy that I took uh because I didn't know how to price it because I didn't know how to price it because I didn't know how to price it completely. So I said whenever I get one completely. So I said whenever I get one completely. So I said whenever I get one client I double the price. So now I'm at client I double the price. So now I'm at client I double the price. So now I'm at 10k.

10k. 10k. Nice. And uh so I so that means you've Nice. And uh so I so that means you've Nice. And uh so I so that means you've sold at least one license at 5k 5,000 sold at least one license at 5k 5,000 sold at least one license at 5k 5,000 euros a year. euros a year. euros a year. Yes. Yes. Yes. Excellent. Good for you. Excellent. Good for you. Excellent. Good for you. I also sold already one with 10k but I I also sold already one with 10k but I I also sold already one with 10k but I didn't I didn't it was just two days didn't I didn't it was just two days didn't I didn't it was just two days ago. Yeah, I didn't double it yet. ago. Yeah, I didn't double it yet. ago. Yeah, I didn't double it yet. It's it's getting a bit big. It's it's getting a bit big. It's it's getting a bit big. Yeah, that's that's great. Um and so Yeah, that's that's great. Um and so Yeah, that's that's great. Um and so Geomman, when did you start working on Geomman, when did you start working on Geomman, when did you start working on that then? When did you start launching that then? When did you start launching that then? When did you start launching these side projects? these side projects? these side projects? Um, so Geommen started off as not a Um, so Geommen started off as not a Um, so Geommen started off as not a product that I wanted to sell at all. So product that I wanted to sell at all. So product that I wanted to sell at all. So I did a um an open source library for I did a um an open source library for I did a um an open source library for Leaflet, uh, a leaflet plug-in um, so Leaflet, uh, a leaflet plug-in um, so Leaflet, uh, a leaflet plug-in um, so you can edit geospatial data on the map you can edit geospatial data on the map you can edit geospatial data on the map like polygons and markers and whatnot. like polygons and markers and whatnot. like polygons and markers and whatnot. And um this was 5 years ago because I And um this was 5 years ago because I And um this was 5 years ago because I needed a tool uh for um actually my needed a tool uh for um actually my needed a tool uh for um actually my current employer that I built on the current employer that I built on the current employer that I built on the side and there was not there was nothing side and there was not there was nothing side and there was not there was nothing out there that fit my expectations. So I out there that fit my expectations. So I out there that fit my expectations. So I built it on my own and since five years built it on my own and since five years built it on my own and since five years I'm maintaining this open source project I'm maintaining this open source project I'm maintaining this open source project and uh it got more popular, it got more and uh it got more popular, it got more and uh it got more popular, it got more users, more collaborators and at some users, more collaborators and at some users, more collaborators and at some point I wasn't able to point I wasn't able to point I wasn't able to let's say it was more of a burden like let's say it was more of a burden like let's say it was more of a burden like it was I felt I let the people down if I it was I felt I let the people down if I it was I felt I let the people down if I don't fix the bugs and keep more like don't fix the bugs and keep more like don't fix the bugs and keep more like releases coming. So I tried to find a releases coming. So I tried to find a releases coming. So I tried to find a way to make this sustainable to be able way to make this sustainable to be able way to make this sustainable to be able to put more time in um by by getting to put more time in um by by getting to put more time in um by by getting some money out of it in some way. Uh so some money out of it in some way. Uh so some money out of it in some way. Uh so I started GitHub sponsors. I um tried

I started GitHub sponsors. I um tried I started GitHub sponsors. I um tried with like uh you know buy me a coffee with like uh you know buy me a coffee with like uh you know buy me a coffee stuff. Um I tried to make a SAS product stuff. Um I tried to make a SAS product stuff. Um I tried to make a SAS product that basically so you can edit and store that basically so you can edit and store that basically so you can edit and store your geospatial data on Geomman.io. your geospatial data on Geomman.io. your geospatial data on Geomman.io. Uh that didn't work out but I I think Uh that didn't work out but I I think Uh that didn't work out but I I think there's still potential there. I just there's still potential there. I just there's still potential there. I just did it wrong. So what I did instead now did it wrong. So what I did instead now did it wrong. So what I did instead now is I just took the open source library is I just took the open source library is I just took the open source library and looked at what people are writing me and looked at what people are writing me and looked at what people are writing me for the features and took the nichest for the features and took the nichest for the features and took the nichest features that they were requesting. So features that they were requesting. So features that they were requesting. So very specific features that were for very specific features that were for very specific features that were for very specific companies. And I I I said very specific companies. And I I I said very specific companies. And I I I said look I will build them but not for open look I will build them but not for open look I will build them but not for open source. I will build them in a pro source. I will build them in a pro source. I will build them in a pro version. And this pro version uh I'm version. And this pro version uh I'm version. And this pro version uh I'm selling basically a license for. And my selling basically a license for. And my selling basically a license for. And my plan currently is and what I'm doing is plan currently is and what I'm doing is plan currently is and what I'm doing is um slowly I'm trickling these features um slowly I'm trickling these features um slowly I'm trickling these features down into the open source library. So down into the open source library. So down into the open source library. So the open source library benefits in the the open source library benefits in the the open source library benefits in the long run but in the meantime I get some long run but in the meantime I get some long run but in the meantime I get some income in can focus on these features income in can focus on these features income in can focus on these features and um and can sell it to some and um and can sell it to some and um and can sell it to some companies.

companies. companies. Yeah, it's a clever way to do it and I I Yeah, it's a clever way to do it and I I Yeah, it's a clever way to do it and I I think it's nice that you kind of hacked think it's nice that you kind of hacked think it's nice that you kind of hacked your way around because the open source your way around because the open source your way around because the open source thing can become a real burden. And I thing can become a real burden. And I thing can become a real burden. And I know I've had several friends and know I've had several friends and know I've had several friends and colleagues who have launched open source colleagues who have launched open source colleagues who have launched open source products and it's great for six months products and it's great for six months products and it's great for six months or a year and then it's like man I have or a year and then it's like man I have or a year and then it's like man I have to maintain this and this sucks. And so to maintain this and this sucks. And so to maintain this and this sucks. And so the fact that you have turned it into a the fact that you have turned it into a the fact that you have turned it into a revenue stream I think is beneficial revenue stream I think is beneficial revenue stream I think is beneficial both for you but also for your you know both for you but also for your you know both for you but also for your you know community in the sense that you're able community in the sense that you're able community in the sense that you're able to to justify um the time that you spend to to justify um the time that you spend to to justify um the time that you spend on it. It reminds me of Sidekick, which on it. It reminds me of Sidekick, which on it. It reminds me of Sidekick, which is uh you know a queuing mechanism and is uh you know a queuing mechanism and is uh you know a queuing mechanism and um it uh we used it at Drip extensively um it uh we used it at Drip extensively um it uh we used it at Drip extensively and yeah it was free until it wasn't and and yeah it was free until it wasn't and and yeah it was free until it wasn't and when you I forget what even it was quite when you I forget what even it was quite when you I forget what even it was quite expensive. It was like three grand or 10 expensive. It was like three grand or 10 expensive. It was like three grand or 10 grand or something per license and uh we grand or something per license and uh we grand or something per license and uh we wound up um using it and paying happily wound up um using it and paying happily wound up um using it and paying happily for it and I don't think we got any for it and I don't think we got any for it and I don't think we got any extra features. I think it was purely extra features. I think it was purely extra features. I think it was purely for support or something like that but for support or something like that but for support or something like that but it was just worth it. The whole business it was just worth it. The whole business it was just worth it. The whole business ran on it you know all the underlying ran on it you know all the underlying ran on it you know all the underlying code base. So um it becomes worth it at code base. So um it becomes worth it at code base. So um it becomes worth it at that point. So then in talking uh you that point. So then in talking uh you that point. So then in talking uh you know about these side projects back in know about these side projects back in know about these side projects back in the day when I was launching side the day when I was launching side the day when I was launching side projects 15 20 years ago and was still projects 15 20 years ago and was still projects 15 20 years ago and was still employed full-time. I was really employed full-time. I was really employed full-time. I was really concerned that my employer would find concerned that my employer would find concerned that my employer would find out and that I would get in trouble or out and that I would get in trouble or out and that I would get in trouble or they would try to take ownership or they would try to take ownership or they would try to take ownership or there would be I would get fired. I mean there would be I would get fired. I mean there would be I would get fired. I mean I I just don't even know. I was just I I just don't even know. I was just I I just don't even know. I was just kind of paranoid about it. But obviously kind of paranoid about it. But obviously kind of paranoid about it. But obviously you're you're relatively public because you're you're relatively public because you're you're relatively public because you have this YouTube channel. You have you have this YouTube channel. You have you have this YouTube channel. You have the the the Twitter feed. Does your the the the Twitter feed. Does your the the the Twitter feed. Does your employer know, you know, the side employer know, you know, the side employer know, you know, the side projects you're working on and and do projects you're working on and and do projects you're working on and and do they care that you're working on them?

they care that you're working on them? they care that you're working on them? Uh, so they know. Um, I'm actually not Uh, so they know. Um, I'm actually not Uh, so they know. Um, I'm actually not concerned about my boss or his boss concerned about my boss or his boss concerned about my boss or his boss finding out or or knowing about this. finding out or or knowing about this. finding out or or knowing about this. Uh, I'm more concerned or um worried in Uh, I'm more concerned or um worried in Uh, I'm more concerned or um worried in in a way sometimes about my employees. in a way sometimes about my employees. in a way sometimes about my employees. So, I lead a big team at my employer. So, I lead a big team at my employer. So, I lead a big team at my employer. So, I'm more um thinking sometimes what So, I'm more um thinking sometimes what So, I'm more um thinking sometimes what do they think? But I know that my boss's do they think? But I know that my boss's do they think? But I know that my boss's boss and his colleagues, some of them boss and his colleagues, some of them boss and his colleagues, some of them are even users of Trezor 1. Uh I saw are even users of Trezor 1. Uh I saw are even users of Trezor 1. Uh I saw that and um Geomman came out of the open that and um Geomman came out of the open that and um Geomman came out of the open source library and that open source source library and that open source source library and that open source library is also used inside the company. library is also used inside the company. library is also used inside the company. So everyone knows that I'm doing this. So everyone knows that I'm doing this. So everyone knows that I'm doing this. Some people are scratching the head how Some people are scratching the head how Some people are scratching the head how I find the time. Um but uh yeah everyone I find the time. Um but uh yeah everyone I find the time. Um but uh yeah everyone knows and personally I think um as knows and personally I think um as knows and personally I think um as developers we don't have problems developers we don't have problems developers we don't have problems finding a job right and currently not at finding a job right and currently not at finding a job right and currently not at all and if my employer would not like it all and if my employer would not like it all and if my employer would not like it uh then yeah it it wouldn't be a good uh then yeah it it wouldn't be a good uh then yeah it it wouldn't be a good employer for me because I think I learn employer for me because I think I learn employer for me because I think I learn the most in these side projects by by the most in these side projects by by the most in these side projects by by approaching new problems by solving new approaching new problems by solving new approaching new problems by solving new things and and looking also outside of things and and looking also outside of things and and looking also outside of the developer problem per se because I the developer problem per se because I the developer problem per se because I have to do business stuff, sales, have to do business stuff, sales, have to do business stuff, sales, marketing, user um uh customer support, marketing, user um uh customer support, marketing, user um uh customer support, all that kind of stuff. And I think this all that kind of stuff. And I think this all that kind of stuff. And I think this makes us better developers, better makes us better developers, better makes us better developers, better people to work with. And if an employer people to work with. And if an employer people to work with. And if an employer doesn't appreciate that, then it's not doesn't appreciate that, then it's not doesn't appreciate that, then it's not the employer for me. So, I'm not scared

the employer for me. So, I'm not scared the employer for me. So, I'm not scared at all actually for that. at all actually for that. at all actually for that. I think that's a that's a great way to I think that's a that's a great way to I think that's a that's a great way to think about it. Um do I'm curious if one think about it. Um do I'm curious if one think about it. Um do I'm curious if one of your employees that you manage uh was of your employees that you manage uh was of your employees that you manage uh was working on side projects and making working on side projects and making working on side projects and making money from them, how would you feel money from them, how would you feel money from them, how would you feel about that? about that? about that? Uh I'm actually congratulate I'm Uh I'm actually congratulate I'm Uh I'm actually congratulate I'm high-fiving them whenever whenever I see high-fiving them whenever whenever I see high-fiving them whenever whenever I see uh someone do like you know having uh someone do like you know having uh someone do like you know having having an achievement or a milestone. So having an achievement or a milestone. So having an achievement or a milestone. So multiple people are working on side multiple people are working on side multiple people are working on side projects. We are actually uh encouraging projects. We are actually uh encouraging projects. We are actually uh encouraging them uh we are giving them a bit of time them uh we are giving them a bit of time them uh we are giving them a bit of time to do side projects even for us or for to do side projects even for us or for to do side projects even for us or for them uh so they learn um or whatever and them uh so they learn um or whatever and them uh so they learn um or whatever and if they if they uh generate some money if they if they uh generate some money if they if they uh generate some money out of it I'm the first one that says uh out of it I'm the first one that says uh out of it I'm the first one that says uh well done. It's a great job. well done. It's a great job. well done. It's a great job. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, very cool. We were talking offline right very cool. We were talking offline right very cool. We were talking offline right before we uh jumped on the stream and before we uh jumped on the stream and before we uh jumped on the stream and you know given that that Geomman is a you know given that that Geomman is a you know given that that Geomman is a high you know an expensive or more high you know an expensive or more high you know an expensive or more expensive B2B product versus Traor which expensive B2B product versus Traor which expensive B2B product versus Traor which is a inexpensive B TOC I would guess is a inexpensive B TOC I would guess is a inexpensive B TOC I would guess that Geomman is much more successful that Geomman is much more successful that Geomman is much more successful than Traor. Would you like to to talk us than Traor. Would you like to to talk us than Traor. Would you like to to talk us through that and if you're willing you through that and if you're willing you through that and if you're willing you know you had you had mentioned in your know you had you had mentioned in your know you had you had mentioned in your tweet you're you know approaching three tweet you're you know approaching three tweet you're you know approaching three between 3 and 5K euro per month. I'm between 3 and 5K euro per month. I'm between 3 and 5K euro per month. I'm wondering what the breakdown of that is wondering what the breakdown of that is wondering what the breakdown of that is between the two products.

between the two products. between the two products. Yeah. So, um this was actually the first Yeah. So, um this was actually the first Yeah. So, um this was actually the first month where that um let's say the payout month where that um let's say the payout month where that um let's say the payout through Stripe is um higher than than my through Stripe is um higher than than my through Stripe is um higher than than my salary and the breakdown is basically salary and the breakdown is basically salary and the breakdown is basically a,000 a little bit over a,000 euros, 200 a,000 a little bit over a,000 euros, 200 a,000 a little bit over a,000 euros, 200 from TZO1 from TZO1 from TZO1 and um the rest is from Geomman. And and um the rest is from Geomman. And and um the rest is from Geomman. And from Geommen it's basically yeah we have from Geommen it's basically yeah we have from Geommen it's basically yeah we have there are still clients that pay like a there are still clients that pay like a there are still clients that pay like a hundred a month and then there are hundred a month and then there are hundred a month and then there are clients that pay 5,000 or 10,000 a year clients that pay 5,000 or 10,000 a year clients that pay 5,000 or 10,000 a year and this of course I don't have that and this of course I don't have that and this of course I don't have that much clients in Geommen right now like I much clients in Geommen right now like I much clients in Geommen right now like I I get one or two clients per month and I get one or two clients per month and I get one or two clients per month and if I continue to get one client per if I continue to get one client per if I continue to get one client per month then I have enough uh monthly month then I have enough uh monthly month then I have enough uh monthly recurring revenue if I do this for one recurring revenue if I do this for one recurring revenue if I do this for one one year or something. Um what I did now one year or something. Um what I did now one year or something. Um what I did now is so it has been it looks good from the is so it has been it looks good from the is so it has been it looks good from the past uh months but I haven't done any past uh months but I haven't done any past uh months but I haven't done any sales for it at all like the the sales for it at all like the the sales for it at all like the the companies just come to me and and simply companies just come to me and and simply companies just come to me and and simply buy it or ask me uh how to purchase it.

buy it or ask me uh how to purchase it. buy it or ask me uh how to purchase it. Um so what I did now is I was part I I Um so what I did now is I was part I I Um so what I did now is I was part I I partnered with the saleserson that partnered with the saleserson that partnered with the saleserson that actually goes out and sells it. Um so actually goes out and sells it. Um so actually goes out and sells it. Um so the good part is that uh yeah most of the good part is that uh yeah most of the good part is that uh yeah most of the work is already done. It's not a the work is already done. It's not a the work is already done. It's not a typical SAS product where I have to work typical SAS product where I have to work typical SAS product where I have to work on it every day. Uh I can basically on it every day. Uh I can basically on it every day. Uh I can basically start to scale the sales part now. start to scale the sales part now. start to scale the sales part now. Yep. Yeah. And that's a nice place to Yep. Yeah. And that's a nice place to Yep. Yeah. And that's a nice place to be. I'm curious um be. I'm curious um be. I'm curious um if Geomman is doing so well compared to if Geomman is doing so well compared to if Geomman is doing so well compared to like why not just focus on Geomon and like why not just focus on Geomon and like why not just focus on Geomon and grow that because I mean it's obvious grow that because I mean it's obvious grow that because I mean it's obvious that if there's demand and it could be a that if there's demand and it could be a that if there's demand and it could be a great business. I mean you know Sidekick great business. I mean you know Sidekick great business. I mean you know Sidekick is like a million dollar multi-million is like a million dollar multi-million is like a million dollar multi-million dollar revenue business. I think Geomman dollar revenue business. I think Geomman dollar revenue business. I think Geomman could could have potential to do that, could could have potential to do that, could could have potential to do that, but without focus, if you're splitting but without focus, if you're splitting but without focus, if you're splitting your time, you know, I'm not sure that your time, you know, I'm not sure that your time, you know, I'm not sure that that it will. So, what's your thinking that it will. So, what's your thinking that it will. So, what's your thinking there? there? there? Yeah, I'm spread very thin and I have Yeah, I'm spread very thin and I have Yeah, I'm spread very thin and I have the same uh uh thoughts sometimes. It's the same uh uh thoughts sometimes. It's the same uh uh thoughts sometimes. It's still a problem that really excites me, still a problem that really excites me, still a problem that really excites me, especially because a lot of deep work is especially because a lot of deep work is especially because a lot of deep work is required. like it's um for example the required. like it's um for example the required. like it's um for example the this the the feature that I'm currently this the the feature that I'm currently this the the feature that I'm currently building is a completely new algorithm building is a completely new algorithm building is a completely new algorithm to split polygons. It's very niche, very to split polygons. It's very niche, very to split polygons. It's very niche, very focused and I know that in this niche I focused and I know that in this niche I focused and I know that in this niche I sometimes have actually the best sometimes have actually the best sometimes have actually the best solutions out there which I really like solutions out there which I really like solutions out there which I really like to do honestly. Um but on the other to do honestly. Um but on the other to do honestly. Um but on the other hand, building cash flow, building a hand, building cash flow, building a hand, building cash flow, building a business, getting out of the red race as business, getting out of the red race as business, getting out of the red race as we say in the in this community, um I'm

we say in the in this community, um I'm we say in the in this community, um I'm focusing also on investing and getting focusing also on investing and getting focusing also on investing and getting uh you know some dividend income, cash uh you know some dividend income, cash uh you know some dividend income, cash flow and when like through this whole flow and when like through this whole flow and when like through this whole journey I'm actually convinced that journey I'm actually convinced that journey I'm actually convinced that people need to get some financial people need to get some financial people need to get some financial education in school. We don't have this education in school. We don't have this education in school. We don't have this in Germany. We don't people don't know in Germany. We don't people don't know in Germany. We don't people don't know how the stock market works, what a how the stock market works, what a how the stock market works, what a dividend is, etc. You do this on your dividend is, etc. You do this on your dividend is, etc. You do this on your own. And this is a mission I'm so much own. And this is a mission I'm so much own. And this is a mission I'm so much more behind and uh I have much much more more behind and uh I have much much more more behind and uh I have much much more users of uh in the B2C world, of course, users of uh in the B2C world, of course, users of uh in the B2C world, of course, much more feedback. There's so much much more feedback. There's so much much more feedback. There's so much momentum behind it that um I'm actually momentum behind it that um I'm actually momentum behind it that um I'm actually more excited about solving that problem. more excited about solving that problem. more excited about solving that problem. I think it also has a lot of potential, I think it also has a lot of potential, I think it also has a lot of potential, but it's simply it's more work and but it's simply it's more work and but it's simply it's more work and everything. Um, so if someone would make everything. Um, so if someone would make everything. Um, so if someone would make me decide right now, I would probably go me decide right now, I would probably go me decide right now, I would probably go for Trezor one and let Gayoman, Geomman, for Trezor one and let Gayoman, Geomman, for Trezor one and let Gayoman, Geomman, um, uh, let me help with, uh, with um, uh, let me help with, uh, with um, uh, let me help with, uh, with people. I I will get some people for people. I I will get some people for people. I I will get some people for help. Uh, which is what I'm actually help. Uh, which is what I'm actually help. Uh, which is what I'm actually doing with the with the salesperson and doing with the with the salesperson and doing with the with the salesperson and also some developers that, uh, that I also some developers that, uh, that I also some developers that, uh, that I asked to help out. I know it can grow asked to help out. I know it can grow asked to help out. I know it can grow much bigger, but it's uh, it's not just much bigger, but it's uh, it's not just much bigger, but it's uh, it's not just about the money for me, at least about the money for me, at least about the money for me, at least currently.

currently. currently. Yeah. Right. It's about interest and and Yeah. Right. It's about interest and and Yeah. Right. It's about interest and and personal growth it sounds like. We have personal growth it sounds like. We have personal growth it sounds like. We have a question from YouTube. Hares asks, a question from YouTube. Hares asks, a question from YouTube. Hares asks, "How do you how do you decide which "How do you how do you decide which "How do you how do you decide which product to work on?" product to work on?" product to work on?" Um, so the default is basically uh Um, so the default is basically uh Um, so the default is basically uh Trezor one and um Trezor one and um Trezor one and um there are sometimes clients that require there are sometimes clients that require there are sometimes clients that require additional work and uh I'm I'm then additional work and uh I'm I'm then additional work and uh I'm I'm then focusing on that. But again, I'm focusing on that. But again, I'm focusing on that. But again, I'm partnering with freelancers right now to partnering with freelancers right now to partnering with freelancers right now to take over some of the work at Geommen uh take over some of the work at Geommen uh take over some of the work at Geommen uh and also to to contribute more to the and also to to contribute more to the and also to to contribute more to the open source library. So I'm paying them open source library. So I'm paying them open source library. So I'm paying them because again the income is quite good because again the income is quite good because again the income is quite good and I can I can basically do profit and I can I can basically do profit and I can I can basically do profit sharing to some other people and still sharing to some other people and still sharing to some other people and still have something for myself and they can have something for myself and they can have something for myself and they can you know grow that and build that. So you know grow that and build that. So you know grow that and build that. So for Geommen I actually feel like a lot for Geommen I actually feel like a lot for Geommen I actually feel like a lot like very much in control while at TZO like very much in control while at TZO like very much in control while at TZO one it's growing faster than I can keep one it's growing faster than I can keep one it's growing faster than I can keep up with it uh with the features and the up with it uh with the features and the up with it uh with the features and the support and everything. So the default support and everything. So the default support and everything. So the default is TZO one because I'm getting dozens if is TZO one because I'm getting dozens if is TZO one because I'm getting dozens if not hundreds of messages and emails per not hundreds of messages and emails per not hundreds of messages and emails per day while at Geommen I get an email a day while at Geommen I get an email a day while at Geommen I get an email a month and then I answer it and that's it month and then I answer it and that's it month and then I answer it and that's it you know.

you know. you know. Right. Right. Cool. We have another Right. Right. Cool. We have another Right. Right. Cool. We have another question from YouTube from Happy Leaf question from YouTube from Happy Leaf question from YouTube from Happy Leaf and they say they ask when doubling your and they say they ask when doubling your and they say they ask when doubling your pricing after each new client, what pricing after each new client, what pricing after each new client, what happens when churn occurs? happens when churn occurs? happens when churn occurs? Uh, good question. Didn't happen yet. Uh, good question. Didn't happen yet. Uh, good question. Didn't happen yet. Um, it's Um, it's Um, it's churn. Nice. churn. Nice. churn. Nice. Yeah. Well, I don't think it's Yeah. Well, I don't think it's Yeah. Well, I don't think it's comparable to uh to regular um SAS comparable to uh to regular um SAS comparable to uh to regular um SAS products where in TRO one I have I have products where in TRO one I have I have products where in TRO one I have I have big churn of course but if you you know big churn of course but if you you know big churn of course but if you you know in these kind of businesses so clients in these kind of businesses so clients in these kind of businesses so clients like whatever Microsoft or these huge like whatever Microsoft or these huge like whatever Microsoft or these huge clients when they decide on a map clients when they decide on a map clients when they decide on a map library they use this for many many library they use this for many many library they use this for many many years there's no reason to go away and years there's no reason to go away and years there's no reason to go away and if they decide to not use my library or if they decide to not use my library or if they decide to not use my library or my plug-in anymore and use a different my plug-in anymore and use a different my plug-in anymore and use a different one um That's completely fine. I'm one um That's completely fine. I'm one um That's completely fine. I'm currently not reliant on this revenue currently not reliant on this revenue currently not reliant on this revenue because I have a day job. Um I'm because I have a day job. Um I'm because I have a day job. Um I'm basically basically basically looking where it can go, where I can looking where it can go, where I can looking where it can go, where I can grow it basically on the side of the grow it basically on the side of the grow it basically on the side of the side project. Uh where I can grow it and side project. Uh where I can grow it and side project. Uh where I can grow it and where it can go. And if there if churn where it can go. And if there if churn where it can go. And if there if churn occurs, I would of course try to find occurs, I would of course try to find occurs, I would of course try to find out why. What happened? Is it features out why. What happened? Is it features out why. What happened? Is it features missing? Is there a competitor coming missing? Is there a competitor coming missing? Is there a competitor coming out that is better? whatever it is, but out that is better? whatever it is, but out that is better? whatever it is, but it didn't happen yet, so it's not a it didn't happen yet, so it's not a it didn't happen yet, so it's not a problem I need to solve right now.

problem I need to solve right now. problem I need to solve right now. Yeah. And I I think maybe his underlying Yeah. And I I think maybe his underlying Yeah. And I I think maybe his underlying question is, do you um do you cut your question is, do you um do you cut your question is, do you um do you cut your pricing in half when someone churns? pricing in half when someone churns? pricing in half when someone churns? And I'm guessing the answer is no. And I'm guessing the answer is no. And I'm guessing the answer is no. So, So, So, yeah. yeah. yeah. Yeah. So, doubling the price was always Yeah. So, doubling the price was always Yeah. So, doubling the price was always like it sounds ridiculous. When I when I like it sounds ridiculous. When I when I like it sounds ridiculous. When I when I first started, I asked the open source first started, I asked the open source first started, I asked the open source community, would you pay like 30 bucks a community, would you pay like 30 bucks a community, would you pay like 30 bucks a a month? And everyone said no. Hell no. a month? And everyone said no. Hell no. a month? And everyone said no. Hell no. Yeah. Uh so I was like okay I'm got to Yeah. Uh so I was like okay I'm got to Yeah. Uh so I was like okay I'm got to start with something. So I started there start with something. So I started there start with something. So I started there wasn't wasn't a client for a very long wasn't wasn't a client for a very long wasn't wasn't a client for a very long time. I started to build pro features time. I started to build pro features time. I started to build pro features and at some point they started coming in and at some point they started coming in and at some point they started coming in and um now with 10 10k a year and I said and um now with 10 10k a year and I said and um now with 10 10k a year and I said to myself I will I will double it again to myself I will I will double it again to myself I will I will double it again when I get five clients. So I will not when I get five clients. So I will not when I get five clients. So I will not do it from from the first client. And um do it from from the first client. And um do it from from the first client. And um the only reason why I go so big with the only reason why I go so big with the only reason why I go so big with these companies is because I know the these companies is because I know the these companies is because I know the enterprise world a little bit and I see enterprise world a little bit and I see enterprise world a little bit and I see what companies are buying this. So if what companies are buying this. So if what companies are buying this. So if you if you put your product in that a you if you put your product in that a you if you put your product in that a company like Microsoft buys for 1,500 company like Microsoft buys for 1,500 company like Microsoft buys for 1,500 per year or something that's a joke to per year or something that's a joke to per year or something that's a joke to them and actually they consider you much them and actually they consider you much them and actually they consider you much more serious if you go uh later four more serious if you go uh later four more serious if you go uh later four digits or even five digit prices.

digits or even five digit prices. digits or even five digit prices. Absolutely. And that's one of the Absolutely. And that's one of the Absolutely. And that's one of the biggest mistake that developers make biggest mistake that developers make biggest mistake that developers make when they build a powerful product when they build a powerful product when they build a powerful product that's being used by a Fortune 1000 that's being used by a Fortune 1000 that's being used by a Fortune 1000 company is those companies the company is those companies the company is those companies the difference between 5,000 and $50,000 is difference between 5,000 and $50,000 is difference between 5,000 and $50,000 is almost a rounding error. They they in almost a rounding error. They they in almost a rounding error. They they in general they don't actually care if it's general they don't actually care if it's general they don't actually care if it's a fundamental piece. They they are way a fundamental piece. They they are way a fundamental piece. They they are way more concerned about the the service more concerned about the the service more concerned about the the service level agreement, the fact that it you level agreement, the fact that it you level agreement, the fact that it you stay in business, if they're going to stay in business, if they're going to stay in business, if they're going to embed it in their app. There's all these embed it in their app. There's all these embed it in their app. There's all these things that are much more important and things that are much more important and things that are much more important and much more expensive to them than than much more expensive to them than than much more expensive to them than than tens of thousands of dollars. And so you tens of thousands of dollars. And so you tens of thousands of dollars. And so you know a lot of advice we give in in the know a lot of advice we give in in the know a lot of advice we give in in the tiny seed batches is the moment that tiny seed batches is the moment that tiny seed batches is the moment that Verizon or Target knocks on your door Verizon or Target knocks on your door Verizon or Target knocks on your door you are talking minimum minimum 25 grand you are talking minimum minimum 25 grand you are talking minimum minimum 25 grand a year and usually 50 grand a year just a year and usually 50 grand a year just a year and usually 50 grand a year just to make it worth their procurement to make it worth their procurement to make it worth their procurement process because they're going to put you process because they're going to put you process because they're going to put you through such pain to become a vendor and through such pain to become a vendor and through such pain to become a vendor and you're going to sign so many custom you're going to sign so many custom you're going to sign so many custom contracts and they're going to redline contracts and they're going to redline contracts and they're going to redline your terms of service and there's all your terms of service and there's all your terms of service and there's all this stuff that um it's just not worth this stuff that um it's just not worth this stuff that um it's just not worth doing from your perspective for a doing from your perspective for a doing from your perspective for a thousand or often even you know $10,000 thousand or often even you know $10,000 thousand or often even you know $10,000 a year.

a year. a year. Yeah. And everything behind human is Yeah. And everything behind human is Yeah. And everything behind human is very very manual. Like I put a license very very manual. Like I put a license very very manual. Like I put a license in place but the distribution behind it in place but the distribution behind it in place but the distribution behind it etc. It's so manual and I'm waiting etc. It's so manual and I'm waiting etc. It's so manual and I'm waiting until someone demands more. I'm waiting until someone demands more. I'm waiting until someone demands more. I'm waiting until someone comes. Look, we need a until someone comes. Look, we need a until someone comes. Look, we need a private npm registry to install this. private npm registry to install this. private npm registry to install this. No, no, no. No one comes. So, No, no, no. No one comes. So, No, no, no. No one comes. So, uh as long as it works like this, I'm uh as long as it works like this, I'm uh as long as it works like this, I'm continuing. But I'm ready when when a continuing. But I'm ready when when a continuing. But I'm ready when when a company comes in and says, "Look, we we company comes in and says, "Look, we we company comes in and says, "Look, we we need like we need this for 10 need like we need this for 10 need like we need this for 10 applications and we need a proper applications and we need a proper applications and we need a proper distribution channel. We need this and distribution channel. We need this and distribution channel. We need this and that and some support and you need to that and some support and you need to that and some support and you need to come in and and and onboard our teams. come in and and and onboard our teams. come in and and and onboard our teams. I'm ready for that." But that didn't I'm ready for that." But that didn't I'm ready for that." But that didn't happen. They just buy and go off with happen. They just buy and go off with happen. They just buy and go off with it, which is fine by me. it, which is fine by me. it, which is fine by me. So I'm I'm curious given that you the So I'm I'm curious given that you the So I'm I'm curious given that you the Geomman is quite successful, but you Geomman is quite successful, but you Geomman is quite successful, but you kind of have it on autopilot on the side kind of have it on autopilot on the side kind of have it on autopilot on the side and you're really passionate about and you're really passionate about and you're really passionate about Traor. I've been in that position, by Traor. I've been in that position, by Traor. I've been in that position, by the way, where I've had multiple apps the way, where I've had multiple apps the way, where I've had multiple apps and I kind of really want to do one and and I kind of really want to do one and and I kind of really want to do one and some of them I shut down, some of them I some of them I shut down, some of them I some of them I shut down, some of them I sold and I'm wondering why not sell sold and I'm wondering why not sell sold and I'm wondering why not sell Geomoman. Um because if it's let's just Geomoman. Um because if it's let's just Geomoman. Um because if it's let's just I'll throw some random some numbers out.

I'll throw some random some numbers out. I'll throw some random some numbers out. Um you know, if it's doing 4 grand a Um you know, if it's doing 4 grand a Um you know, if it's doing 4 grand a month, averaging 4,000 euro a month, and month, averaging 4,000 euro a month, and month, averaging 4,000 euro a month, and most of that's profit, that's about most of that's profit, that's about most of that's profit, that's about 48,000 a year. SAS or subscription stuff 48,000 a year. SAS or subscription stuff 48,000 a year. SAS or subscription stuff will sell at about three and a half will sell at about three and a half will sell at about three and a half times, you know, the annual revenue or times, you know, the annual revenue or times, you know, the annual revenue or annual net profit is really what it is. annual net profit is really what it is. annual net profit is really what it is. So, let's just say it's around So, let's just say it's around So, let's just say it's around 130 160,000 euro that you could feasibly 130 160,000 euro that you could feasibly 130 160,000 euro that you could feasibly sell it for. So, why not why not do that sell it for. So, why not why not do that sell it for. So, why not why not do that and take the money and either, you know, and take the money and either, you know, and take the money and either, you know, put it in dividend producing stocks like put it in dividend producing stocks like put it in dividend producing stocks like you like you're doing or or invest it you like you're doing or or invest it you like you're doing or or invest it into traur or start a college fund for into traur or start a college fund for into traur or start a college fund for your, you know, your two week old. Mhm. your, you know, your two week old. Mhm. your, you know, your two week old. Mhm. Um, yeah, that's a good question. So, I Um, yeah, that's a good question. So, I Um, yeah, that's a good question. So, I actually got more acquisition offers for actually got more acquisition offers for actually got more acquisition offers for Trazor one and also much higher ones at Trazor one and also much higher ones at Trazor one and also much higher ones at that. that. that. Uh, but I I basically said no to Uh, but I I basically said no to Uh, but I I basically said no to everything. And I would say no to to everything. And I would say no to to everything. And I would say no to to Geommen as well because um let's say I Geommen as well because um let's say I Geommen as well because um let's say I get 500K or maybe 500K is already at the get 500K or maybe 500K is already at the get 500K or maybe 500K is already at the upper limit, but let's say 200K uh for upper limit, but let's say 200K uh for upper limit, but let's say 200K uh for one of these products. It wouldn't one of these products. It wouldn't one of these products. It wouldn't change my life. It wouldn't at all. I change my life. It wouldn't at all. I change my life. It wouldn't at all. I would I would invest it for my daughter would I would invest it for my daughter would I would invest it for my daughter or for me. Uh maybe I would um you know or for me. Uh maybe I would um you know or for me. Uh maybe I would um you know I would be able to have a runway to work I would be able to have a runway to work I would be able to have a runway to work on on these side projects for like two on on these side projects for like two on on these side projects for like two years without uh without having a years without uh without having a years without uh without having a full-time job. But it wouldn't change my full-time job. But it wouldn't change my full-time job. But it wouldn't change my life at all. What I want to do is I want life at all. What I want to do is I want life at all. What I want to do is I want to build these side projects up and I'm to build these side projects up and I'm to build these side projects up and I'm currently on a good path to be able to currently on a good path to be able to currently on a good path to be able to fund me that I can do whatever I want. I fund me that I can do whatever I want. I fund me that I can do whatever I want. I can work today. I cannot work today. I

can work today. I cannot work today. I can work today. I cannot work today. I can work for an awesome company that I'm can work for an awesome company that I'm can work for an awesome company that I'm interested in or I can do open source interested in or I can do open source interested in or I can do open source work or whatever it is. Uh and this kind work or whatever it is. Uh and this kind work or whatever it is. Uh and this kind of freedom I want to build up. I agree of freedom I want to build up. I agree of freedom I want to build up. I agree that when I sell it I might have some that when I sell it I might have some that when I sell it I might have some runway to do that um or to focus more on runway to do that um or to focus more on runway to do that um or to focus more on that. Uh but these two products that. Uh but these two products that. Uh but these two products currently my heart is on them. I put a currently my heart is on them. I put a currently my heart is on them. I put a lot of effort on them and I think both lot of effort on them and I think both lot of effort on them and I think both of them have the potential to be that of them have the potential to be that of them have the potential to be that driver of freedom let's say. And if driver of freedom let's say. And if driver of freedom let's say. And if someone gives me a million or two someone gives me a million or two someone gives me a million or two million, that might be life-changing for million, that might be life-changing for million, that might be life-changing for me because then the dividends alone will me because then the dividends alone will me because then the dividends alone will pay for my bills if I invest that. But pay for my bills if I invest that. But pay for my bills if I invest that. But with 100 or 200k, it doesn't change much with 100 or 200k, it doesn't change much with 100 or 200k, it doesn't change much for me. I'm rather interested in the for me. I'm rather interested in the for me. I'm rather interested in the cash flow that I can build up in in cash flow that I can build up in in cash flow that I can build up in in actually building this. It's it's just actually building this. It's it's just actually building this. It's it's just too much fun to give it up for for a too much fun to give it up for for a too much fun to give it up for for a lower six figure. lower six figure. lower six figure. Low six figures. Yeah. Well, you're in a Low six figures. Yeah. Well, you're in a Low six figures. Yeah. Well, you're in a good spot as you're saying that. It's good spot as you're saying that. It's good spot as you're saying that. It's just too much fun. I love that. That's a just too much fun. I love that. That's a just too much fun. I love that. That's a great quote from you. great quote from you. great quote from you. It is. I'm I'm curious on Traor like It is. I'm I'm curious on Traor like It is. I'm I'm curious on Traor like since it is B TOC and it's it's free and since it is B TOC and it's it's free and since it is B TOC and it's it's free and 5 a month obviously you can't be running 5 a month obviously you can't be running 5 a month obviously you can't be running Facebook ads or Google ads because you Facebook ads or Google ads because you Facebook ads or Google ads because you just you wouldn't make any money on the just you wouldn't make any money on the just you wouldn't make any money on the folks. I'm curious what's your best folks. I'm curious what's your best folks. I'm curious what's your best source of new leads or new customers for source of new leads or new customers for source of new leads or new customers for source.

source. source. Yeah, that's good question also. Uh, so Yeah, that's good question also. Uh, so Yeah, that's good question also. Uh, so I looked at what what um competitors are I looked at what what um competitors are I looked at what what um competitors are out there and regarding pricing when I out there and regarding pricing when I out there and regarding pricing when I get up to speed with the features. Uh, I get up to speed with the features. Uh, I get up to speed with the features. Uh, I definitely will increase pricing a definitely will increase pricing a definitely will increase pricing a little bit, but I probably won't go over little bit, but I probably won't go over little bit, but I probably won't go over €10 a month. Um, it depends on the €10 a month. Um, it depends on the €10 a month. Um, it depends on the features. Uh, so currently it's word of features. Uh, so currently it's word of features. Uh, so currently it's word of mouth. It's the communities where people mouth. It's the communities where people mouth. It's the communities where people that that take care of their financial that that take care of their financial that that take care of their financial education are at um, they share it education are at um, they share it education are at um, they share it basically. So I'm I'm invested in these basically. So I'm I'm invested in these basically. So I'm I'm invested in these communities. I'm posting a little bit. communities. I'm posting a little bit. communities. I'm posting a little bit. But the people especially in Germany are But the people especially in Germany are But the people especially in Germany are very very reluctant. I cannot only I very very reluctant. I cannot only I very very reluctant. I cannot only I cannot just go in there and share one cannot just go in there and share one cannot just go in there and share one because they will see that there is an because they will see that there is an because they will see that there is an pro plan or a plus plan that costs money pro plan or a plus plan that costs money pro plan or a plus plan that costs money and they will say this is advertising. and they will say this is advertising. and they will say this is advertising. So I need to rely on word of mouth and So I need to rely on word of mouth and So I need to rely on word of mouth and actually uh I'm very happy that growth actually uh I'm very happy that growth actually uh I'm very happy that growth is accelerating and I have awesome is accelerating and I have awesome is accelerating and I have awesome awesome users very engaged users that awesome users very engaged users that awesome users very engaged users that that I feel like they simply want to that I feel like they simply want to that I feel like they simply want to support me. They contribute to the open support me. They contribute to the open support me. They contribute to the open source part. I open sourced a part of it source part. I open sourced a part of it source part. I open sourced a part of it and people are working with it. They are and people are working with it. They are and people are working with it. They are you know helping me um make the data you know helping me um make the data you know helping me um make the data better, get better quality data, better, get better quality data, better, get better quality data, reporting bugs. I'm on Slack with some reporting bugs. I'm on Slack with some reporting bugs. I'm on Slack with some of them. I just used Circle just of them. I just used Circle just of them. I just used Circle just recently launched for a new community.

recently launched for a new community. recently launched for a new community. People coming in helping each other out. People coming in helping each other out. People coming in helping each other out. Um again, it's such a vibrant engaged Um again, it's such a vibrant engaged Um again, it's such a vibrant engaged community. Um and I feel yeah, everyone community. Um and I feel yeah, everyone community. Um and I feel yeah, everyone is just in there and wants this to is just in there and wants this to is just in there and wants this to succeed because it's a it's a good succeed because it's a it's a good succeed because it's a it's a good product for them. And this is such a product for them. And this is such a product for them. And this is such a huge motivation for me that yeah, I I huge motivation for me that yeah, I I huge motivation for me that yeah, I I could I could work on it 25 hours a day. could I could work on it 25 hours a day. could I could work on it 25 hours a day. It's It's It's Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's great. That's awesome, man. It's so it's so That's awesome, man. It's so it's so That's awesome, man. It's so it's so nice to have a project that you're that nice to have a project that you're that nice to have a project that you're that excited about, you know, so that it's excited about, you know, so that it's excited about, you know, so that it's it's a passion project and it's a hobby it's a passion project and it's a hobby it's a passion project and it's a hobby and it's a side project, but it's also and it's a side project, but it's also and it's a side project, but it's also something that that is making you money something that that is making you money something that that is making you money and really over time can make you and really over time can make you and really over time can make you hopefully a lot more. And if your hopefully a lot more. And if your hopefully a lot more. And if your mission is that aligned with it, mission is that aligned with it, mission is that aligned with it, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's really it's unique. you know, it's it's really it's unique. you know, it's it's really it's unique. Yeah, definitely. I definitely want to Yeah, definitely. I definitely want to Yeah, definitely. I definitely want to get a little bit more into the education get a little bit more into the education get a little bit more into the education space so I can lower the barrier of space so I can lower the barrier of space so I can lower the barrier of entry into investment for young people entry into investment for young people entry into investment for young people because if you start investing with in because if you start investing with in because if you start investing with in your 20s like this this can really your 20s like this this can really your 20s like this this can really change your life uh when you're 40 or change your life uh when you're 40 or change your life uh when you're 40 or something.

something. something. Um so I want to lower the barrier of Um so I want to lower the barrier of Um so I want to lower the barrier of entry. I want to make it as easy as entry. I want to make it as easy as entry. I want to make it as easy as possible, understandable, automated and possible, understandable, automated and possible, understandable, automated and um and regarding the money that comes um and regarding the money that comes um and regarding the money that comes in, I hope at some point when I reach in, I hope at some point when I reach in, I hope at some point when I reach some sort of critical mass with the user some sort of critical mass with the user some sort of critical mass with the user base, the money is not coming from the base, the money is not coming from the base, the money is not coming from the users but actually through the users but actually through the users but actually through the brokerages uh if I can like include some brokerages uh if I can like include some brokerages uh if I can like include some buy and sell buttons for example. So buy and sell buttons for example. So buy and sell buttons for example. So they can buy stock or sell stock and I they can buy stock or sell stock and I they can buy stock or sell stock and I go to them and then it's a commission go to them and then it's a commission go to them and then it's a commission game. So this would be a completely game. So this would be a completely game. So this would be a completely different revenue source and a much different revenue source and a much different revenue source and a much higher one at that I think. higher one at that I think. higher one at that I think. Indeed. Well sir, you're a man after my Indeed. Well sir, you're a man after my Indeed. Well sir, you're a man after my own heart. I am a big fan of investing own heart. I am a big fan of investing own heart. I am a big fan of investing and financial education and you know and financial education and you know and financial education and you know here in the US we're in similar spot here in the US we're in similar spot here in the US we're in similar spot where people are not taught this in where people are not taught this in where people are not taught this in school and you kind of got to learn it school and you kind of got to learn it school and you kind of got to learn it on your own. So Sumid thank you so much on your own. So Sumid thank you so much on your own. So Sumid thank you so much for joining me today man. I really for joining me today man. I really for joining me today man. I really appreciate you taking the uh 30 40 appreciate you taking the uh 30 40 appreciate you taking the uh 30 40 minutes to hang out with us. I'm sure minutes to hang out with us. I'm sure minutes to hang out with us. I'm sure the the Microsoft connect community and the the Microsoft connect community and the the Microsoft connect community and uh the on air community appreciates it uh the on air community appreciates it uh the on air community appreciates it as well. as well. as well. Um on Twitter you are tweets of Sumit.

Um on Twitter you are tweets of Sumit. Um on Twitter you are tweets of Sumit. Everyone should follow you. Uh they can Everyone should follow you. Uh they can Everyone should follow you. Uh they can see it on the screen there. And uh yeah, see it on the screen there. And uh yeah, see it on the screen there. And uh yeah, I wish you the best of luck as you I wish you the best of luck as you I wish you the best of luck as you continue to dive into these products. continue to dive into these products. continue to dive into these products. Thanks for joining. Thanks for joining. Thanks for joining. Thank you very much, Rob. Thanks. It was Thank you very much, Rob. Thanks. It was Thank you very much, Rob. Thanks. It was it was really fun. it was really fun. it was really fun. Yeah, it was good having you. All right, Yeah, it was good having you. All right, Yeah, it was good having you. All right, as we wrap up, Microcom Remote, I as we wrap up, Microcom Remote, I as we wrap up, Microcom Remote, I mentioned it already at the top of the mentioned it already at the top of the mentioned it already at the top of the show, but another speaker we have is show, but another speaker we have is show, but another speaker we have is Colleen Johnson, the co-founder of Colleen Johnson, the co-founder of Colleen Johnson, the co-founder of Scatterpoke, talking about the grueling Scatterpoke, talking about the grueling Scatterpoke, talking about the grueling and exciting journey to $10,000 in MR. and exciting journey to $10,000 in MR. and exciting journey to $10,000 in MR. And throughout the Microcon Remote Show, And throughout the Microcon Remote Show, And throughout the Microcon Remote Show, we do we live stream for about 5 hours. we do we live stream for about 5 hours. we do we live stream for about 5 hours. We're going to be asking the question, We're going to be asking the question, We're going to be asking the question, what is one thing I can do today to make what is one thing I can do today to make what is one thing I can do today to make a meaningful improvement on my business? a meaningful improvement on my business? a meaningful improvement on my business? And we are going to be having um outside And we are going to be having um outside And we are going to be having um outside folks, a lot of names you know, a few folks, a lot of names you know, a few folks, a lot of names you know, a few you don't that are going to be weighing you don't that are going to be weighing you don't that are going to be weighing in on that. Thank you to hey.com and in on that. Thank you to hey.com and in on that. Thank you to hey.com and Stripe for being our headline partners Stripe for being our headline partners Stripe for being our headline partners for the year. They make everything we do for the year. They make everything we do for the year. They make everything we do just a little easier and we are over the just a little easier and we are over the just a little easier and we are over the moon to be partnered with Hey and moon to be partnered with Hey and moon to be partnered with Hey and Stripe. If you have not already, head to Stripe. If you have not already, head to Stripe. If you have not already, head to youtube.com/microcom. youtube.com/microcom. youtube.com/microcom. You can hit that subscribe button to be You can hit that subscribe button to be You can hit that subscribe button to be notified about our future videos like notified about our future videos like notified about our future videos like this one and you can hear this uh this one and you can hear this uh this one and you can hear this uh episode tomorrow on uh our podcast feed.

episode tomorrow on uh our podcast feed. episode tomorrow on uh our podcast feed. So, thank you so much for joining us So, thank you so much for joining us So, thank you so much for joining us every Wednesday and I'll see you again every Wednesday and I'll see you again every Wednesday and I'll see you again next week. Same time, same place.