When Funding Ran Dry, These Founders Doubled Down on Growth – MicroConf On Air

and we're live and we're live welcome to this week's episode of welcome to this week's episode of welcome to this week's episode of microconf on air as always i'm your host microconf on air as always i'm your host microconf on air as always i'm your host rob walling rob walling rob walling every wednesday we live stream for about every wednesday we live stream for about every wednesday we live stream for about 30 minutes we cover topics related to 30 minutes we cover topics related to 30 minutes we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious sas building and growing ambitious sas building and growing ambitious sas startups that don't require us startups that don't require us startups that don't require us to work 80 hour weeks raise millions of to work 80 hour weeks raise millions of to work 80 hour weeks raise millions of dollars in venture capital or drive us dollars in venture capital or drive us dollars in venture capital or drive us to the brink of burnout to the brink of burnout to the brink of burnout and we seek freedom purpose and healthy and we seek freedom purpose and healthy and we seek freedom purpose and healthy relationships we want to maintain those relationships we want to maintain those relationships we want to maintain those values while building values while building values while building interesting companies that can have an interesting companies that can have an interesting companies that can have an impact on the world impact on the world impact on the world maybe just our little corner of it i'm maybe just our little corner of it i'm maybe just our little corner of it i'm excited about my conversation today excited about my conversation today excited about my conversation today i have a a co-founder team i have a a co-founder team i have a a co-founder team josh and jessica and they are um coming josh and jessica and they are um coming josh and jessica and they are um coming at you straight from at you straight from at you straight from montana i'm here broadcasting from montana i'm here broadcasting from montana i'm here broadcasting from minneapolis minnesota minneapolis minnesota minneapolis minnesota and we're all routed through producer and we're all routed through producer and we're all routed through producer xander's computer in xander's computer in xander's computer in honolulu hawaii yes honolulu hawaii honolulu hawaii yes honolulu hawaii honolulu hawaii yes honolulu hawaii if you're in microkoff connect we need if you're in microkoff connect we need if you're in microkoff connect we need to start a thread and give producer to start a thread and give producer to start a thread and give producer xander crap xander crap xander crap about how he's in honolulu hawaii now about how he's in honolulu hawaii now about how he's in honolulu hawaii now and we're not and we're not and we're not so um he just moved and uh so um he just moved and uh so um he just moved and uh so far the live stream is going great i so far the live stream is going great i so far the live stream is going great i love it this is great xander love it this is great xander love it this is great xander i'm glad i'm glad we're able to pull i'm glad i'm glad we're able to pull i'm glad i'm glad we're able to pull this off so today i'm talking about the this off so today i'm talking about the this off so today i'm talking about the co-founders of co-founders of co-founders of cardsetter.com cardsetter.com cardsetter.com cardsetter.com cardsetter.com cardsetter.com and they in essence i'm curious to hear and they in essence i'm curious to hear and they in essence i'm curious to hear how they describe it how they describe it how they describe it um their h1 is get the website you want um their h1 is get the website you want um their h1 is get the website you want custom design custom design custom design and setup included and so in my mind and setup included and so in my mind and setup included and so in my mind they're like they're like they're like squarespace plus setup squarespace plus squarespace plus setup squarespace plus squarespace plus setup squarespace plus services services services um so they're you know obviously website um so they're you know obviously website um so they're you know obviously website hosting platform um hosting platform um hosting platform um website builder and then they they have website builder and then they they have website builder and then they they have the design stuff built the design stuff built the design stuff built yeah there you go um you know they have

yeah there you go um you know they have yeah there you go um you know they have design elements built into it as well design elements built into it as well design elements built into it as well and so the co-founders are josh tenis and so the co-founders are josh tenis and so the co-founders are josh tenis and jessica baldwin again and jessica baldwin again and jessica baldwin again coming from uh billings and missoula coming from uh billings and missoula coming from uh billings and missoula montana respectively montana respectively montana respectively i learned that that's a five and a half i learned that that's a five and a half i learned that that's a five and a half hour drive for some reason you hear hour drive for some reason you hear hour drive for some reason you hear these city names these city names these city names i thought they were closer but they're i thought they were closer but they're i thought they were closer but they're the co-founders of cardsetter and today the co-founders of cardsetter and today the co-founders of cardsetter and today we're going to be talking about how we're going to be talking about how we're going to be talking about how they were trying to raise funding and as they were trying to raise funding and as they were trying to raise funding and as the covid pandemic the covid pandemic the covid pandemic came into play they essentially decided came into play they essentially decided came into play they essentially decided to stop and to double down on growth to stop and to double down on growth to stop and to double down on growth instead instead instead they've grown from 18 customers in they've grown from 18 customers in they've grown from 18 customers in december of last year to more than 100 december of last year to more than 100 december of last year to more than 100 customers at the start customers at the start customers at the start of july that was about a month ago if of july that was about a month ago if of july that was about a month ago if you have questions you have questions you have questions at any time for josh and jessica as i at any time for josh and jessica as i at any time for josh and jessica as i welcome them welcome them welcome them to the show please do post them in the to the show please do post them in the to the show please do post them in the microconf on microconf on microconf on air channel in microconf connect if air channel in microconf connect if air channel in microconf connect if you're not a microkoff connect and want you're not a microkoff connect and want you're not a microkoff connect and want to ask a question go to to ask a question go to to ask a question go to microcofconnect.com and apply to be part microcofconnect.com and apply to be part microcofconnect.com and apply to be part of of of our it's pretty amazing communities more our it's pretty amazing communities more our it's pretty amazing communities more than 1300 than 1300 than 1300 founders and aspiring sas founders in founders and aspiring sas founders in founders and aspiring sas founders in there right now people helping each there right now people helping each there right now people helping each other out and a lot of great threads and other out and a lot of great threads and other out and a lot of great threads and a lot of great energy a lot of great energy a lot of great energy so with that josh and jessica welcome to so with that josh and jessica welcome to so with that josh and jessica welcome to microconfig air thank you for joining me microconfig air thank you for joining me microconfig air thank you for joining me thank you for having us rob thanks for thank you for having us rob thanks for thank you for having us rob thanks for having me absolutely so having me absolutely so having me absolutely so um a bit to cover today because you guys um a bit to cover today because you guys um a bit to cover today because you guys have a pretty a pretty fun story so have a pretty a pretty fun story so have a pretty a pretty fun story so you guys started bootstrapping carts you guys started bootstrapping carts you guys started bootstrapping carts card setter card setter card setter and then at a certain point you were and then at a certain point you were and then at a certain point you were invited to participate in a regional invited to participate in a regional invited to participate in a regional pitch competition pitch competition pitch competition and that alma it sounds like that might and that alma it sounds like that might and that alma it sounds like that might have sent you down this path have sent you down this path have sent you down this path of hey maybe we should raise some

of hey maybe we should raise some of hey maybe we should raise some funding so i guess to start with funding so i guess to start with funding so i guess to start with josh what what made you decide to enter josh what what made you decide to enter josh what what made you decide to enter this pitch competition rather than this pitch competition rather than this pitch competition rather than just focusing on continuing to bootstrap just focusing on continuing to bootstrap just focusing on continuing to bootstrap the company the company the company um you know very early on we had this um you know very early on we had this um you know very early on we had this mindset that we would pursue any mindset that we would pursue any mindset that we would pursue any opportunity that was opportunity that was opportunity that was that was given us and we decided like that was given us and we decided like that was given us and we decided like that's how we're gonna grow and that's that's how we're gonna grow and that's that's how we're gonna grow and that's how we're gonna how we're gonna how we're gonna uh improve ourselves and improve our uh improve ourselves and improve our uh improve ourselves and improve our company and uh that was an opportunity company and uh that was an opportunity company and uh that was an opportunity that we had and we thought uh this could that we had and we thought uh this could that we had and we thought uh this could be a really good be a really good be a really good um thing if we if we won and went down um thing if we if we won and went down um thing if we if we won and went down this path but at the very least this path but at the very least this path but at the very least it's an exercise in learning how to it's an exercise in learning how to it's an exercise in learning how to describe the company describe the company describe the company and also making connections uh in the and also making connections uh in the and also making connections uh in the community and so community and so community and so so we decided to to uh to enter that and so we decided to to uh to enter that and so we decided to to uh to enter that and participate in it and participate in it and participate in it and and put all the work you know involved and put all the work you know involved and put all the work you know involved into doing that into doing that into doing that very cool and do you feel like entering very cool and do you feel like entering very cool and do you feel like entering that competition that competition that competition was a slippery slope of like well now was a slippery slope of like well now was a slippery slope of like well now that we've done it that we've done it that we've done it there's like we should pursue funding there's like we should pursue funding there's like we should pursue funding like did it did it encourage you to then like did it did it encourage you to then like did it did it encourage you to then um continue on because later on you know um continue on because later on you know um continue on because later on you know you will get to it but you you will get to it but you you will get to it but you started trying to raise an angel round started trying to raise an angel round started trying to raise an angel round in march was without the pitch in march was without the pitch in march was without the pitch competition do you think you would have competition do you think you would have competition do you think you would have gone down that path at all gone down that path at all gone down that path at all you know it's hard to say and in fact you know it's hard to say and in fact you know it's hard to say and in fact we've we've had this conversation a we've we've had this conversation a we've we've had this conversation a bunch of times just between us bunch of times just between us bunch of times just between us um and i don't i don't really know it's um and i don't i don't really know it's um and i don't i don't really know it's hard to say like where card center hard to say like where card center hard to say like where card center uh would be as a company had we not gone uh would be as a company had we not gone uh would be as a company had we not gone down that path down that path down that path um we have always talked about funding um we have always talked about funding um we have always talked about funding and obviously and obviously and obviously early early in our um

early early in our um early early in our um early in our company it was always this early in our company it was always this early in our company it was always this this uh oh you know you just come up this uh oh you know you just come up this uh oh you know you just come up with this great idea and you put some with this great idea and you put some with this great idea and you put some work in and then work in and then work in and then uh you go to some vc and then they write uh you go to some vc and then they write uh you go to some vc and then they write you a check and that's how it works you a check and that's how it works you a check and that's how it works and and so throughout the last few years and and so throughout the last few years and and so throughout the last few years we've learned that process we've learned that process we've learned that process so i think it's hard to say if we would so i think it's hard to say if we would so i think it's hard to say if we would have uh not have uh not have uh not tried to raise funding have we not done tried to raise funding have we not done tried to raise funding have we not done that pitch competition but that's really that pitch competition but that's really that pitch competition but that's really what opened the door what opened the door what opened the door to go down that path yeah that makes to go down that path yeah that makes to go down that path yeah that makes makes sense and and jessica i'm curious makes sense and and jessica i'm curious makes sense and and jessica i'm curious um some things i didn't mention is you um some things i didn't mention is you um some things i didn't mention is you know when know when know when did you guys start working on card did you guys start working on card did you guys start working on card setter and setter and setter and when did you um i guess launch however when did you um i guess launch however when did you um i guess launch however you wanted to find that typically i say you wanted to find that typically i say you wanted to find that typically i say like when was your first paying customer like when was your first paying customer like when was your first paying customer is kind of that definition but talk to is kind of that definition but talk to is kind of that definition but talk to us briefly about what that timeline us briefly about what that timeline us briefly about what that timeline looked like and then we can looked like and then we can looked like and then we can go from there to be like when did the go from there to be like when did the go from there to be like when did the pitch competition you know come within pitch competition you know come within pitch competition you know come within that that that yeah so we um started the idea for yeah so we um started the idea for yeah so we um started the idea for cardsetter cardsetter cardsetter in 2016. and it was kind of boring in 2016. and it was kind of boring in 2016. and it was kind of boring because because because in my previous career i owned my own in my previous career i owned my own in my previous career i owned my own revenue generating website revenue generating website revenue generating website it was a local event and entertainment it was a local event and entertainment it was a local event and entertainment website for billings montana which is website for billings montana which is website for billings montana which is where i lived at the time where i lived at the time where i lived at the time and i was unhappy with the the existing and i was unhappy with the the existing and i was unhappy with the the existing options um it was running on wordpress options um it was running on wordpress options um it was running on wordpress then and then and then and um wasn't efficient for me um and so we um wasn't efficient for me um and so we um wasn't efficient for me um and so we started started started josh and i started brainstorming on what josh and i started brainstorming on what josh and i started brainstorming on what would make would make would make a better website for billings 365 and a better website for billings 365 and a better website for billings 365 and determined that um other people could determined that um other people could determined that um other people could use the use the use the the idea that we had as well for their

the idea that we had as well for their the idea that we had as well for their website and so that's kind of how it was website and so that's kind of how it was website and so that's kind of how it was started started started um our first paying customer was um our first paying customer was um our first paying customer was honestly not too sh honestly not too sh honestly not too sh too long after that um i would say maybe too long after that um i would say maybe too long after that um i would say maybe six months to a year after that because six months to a year after that because six months to a year after that because we did have the opportunity we did have the opportunity we did have the opportunity um because of our previous work to talk um because of our previous work to talk um because of our previous work to talk to some people to some people to some people who might be interested and get them who might be interested and get them who might be interested and get them signed up um but then signed up um but then signed up um but then sure last year was really that when the sure last year was really that when the sure last year was really that when the product was at a good stage to launch it product was at a good stage to launch it product was at a good stage to launch it to other people to other people to other people that makes sense and did you when you're that makes sense and did you when you're that makes sense and did you when you're coming up with this idea or starting to coming up with this idea or starting to coming up with this idea or starting to work on it work on it work on it are you um like squarespace are you um like squarespace are you um like squarespace already exists you know and and wix and already exists you know and and wix and already exists you know and and wix and like all these other website builders like all these other website builders like all these other website builders and so and so and so what were you thinking in terms of how what were you thinking in terms of how what were you thinking in terms of how we're going to be different or did you we're going to be different or did you we're going to be different or did you feel like hey the market's big enough we feel like hey the market's big enough we feel like hey the market's big enough we don't we don't need the differentiation yeah so squarespace and wix um are great yeah so squarespace and wix um are great in terms of in terms of in terms of like a general website builder but like a general website builder but like a general website builder but they're also they're also they're also limited in a way that like wordpress is limited in a way that like wordpress is limited in a way that like wordpress is not not not and so cardsetter don't talk about it a and so cardsetter don't talk about it a and so cardsetter don't talk about it a lot in our marketing because we found lot in our marketing because we found lot in our marketing because we found that it's not really a differentiator that it's not really a differentiator that it's not really a differentiator that makes people sign up for the that makes people sign up for the that makes people sign up for the product product product but cardsetter is more robust in terms but cardsetter is more robust in terms but cardsetter is more robust in terms of managing lots and lots of content of managing lots and lots of content of managing lots and lots of content being able to organize that content in being able to organize that content in being able to organize that content in an easy way on your website an easy way on your website an easy way on your website and so we do differentiate in that way and so we do differentiate in that way and so we do differentiate in that way and then and then and then through trying to market card setter through trying to market card setter through trying to market card setter last year you know after our product was last year you know after our product was last year you know after our product was ready ready ready we were going down the path of this very

we were going down the path of this very we were going down the path of this very content creator heavy niche content creator heavy niche content creator heavy niche but in trying to market to that audience but in trying to market to that audience but in trying to market to that audience we found that what people were really we found that what people were really we found that what people were really drawn to drawn to drawn to was how easy cardsetter was to use was how easy cardsetter was to use was how easy cardsetter was to use and the fact that we did help them get and the fact that we did help them get and the fact that we did help them get started with design started with design started with design and setup and you know also having an and setup and you know also having an and setup and you know also having an affordable price with that so those were affordable price with that so those were affordable price with that so those were the the the three key things that through talking to three key things that through talking to three key things that through talking to potential customers whether they were a potential customers whether they were a potential customers whether they were a content creator content creator content creator or whether they were a different small or whether they were a different small or whether they were a different small business business business that really stood out and started to that really stood out and started to that really stood out and started to craft what card setter is now craft what card setter is now craft what card setter is now yeah and just so folks have context yeah and just so folks have context yeah and just so folks have context you're pricing you're pricing you're pricing you have three pricing tiers on your you have three pricing tiers on your you have three pricing tiers on your pricing page the lowest one is 49 pricing page the lowest one is 49 pricing page the lowest one is 49 a month with a 199 setup fee uh a month with a 199 setup fee uh a month with a 199 setup fee uh your middle one is 129 a month with a your middle one is 129 a month with a your middle one is 129 a month with a 299 setup fee 299 setup fee 299 setup fee and then you have custom pricing but and then you have custom pricing but and then you have custom pricing but your setup fee um your setup fee um your setup fee um includes basically you say it's a custom includes basically you say it's a custom includes basically you say it's a custom website design i'm presuming there's website design i'm presuming there's website design i'm presuming there's templates and then you help templates and then you help templates and then you help them migrate design an initial setup them migrate design an initial setup them migrate design an initial setup even e-commerce integrations dns all even e-commerce integrations dns all even e-commerce integrations dns all that that sounds like a lot of work that that sounds like a lot of work that that sounds like a lot of work um josh for only 199 on that low plan um josh for only 199 on that low plan um josh for only 199 on that low plan do you find that is that kind of a loss do you find that is that kind of a loss do you find that is that kind of a loss leader and since churn is low leader and since churn is low leader and since churn is low by switching costs if they don't know by switching costs if they don't know by switching costs if they don't know how to move you know from how to move you know from how to move you know from from uh card setter to whatever other from uh card setter to whatever other from uh card setter to whatever other platform that your churn is so low platform that your churn is so low platform that your churn is so low lifetime value justifies it or do you lifetime value justifies it or do you lifetime value justifies it or do you break even on that that 200 break even on that that 200 break even on that that 200 or 300 setup fee yeah or 300 setup fee yeah or 300 setup fee yeah it's it's not really a loss leader i

it's it's not really a loss leader i it's it's not really a loss leader i think we we probably break even on the think we we probably break even on the think we we probably break even on the setup fee we're not making money setup fee we're not making money setup fee we're not making money uh on the setup fee obviously but it uh on the setup fee obviously but it uh on the setup fee obviously but it does it does solve this does it does solve this does it does solve this uh the blank slate problem uh where uh the blank slate problem uh where uh the blank slate problem uh where people what we found um people what we found um people what we found um is people aren't it helps them a lot if is people aren't it helps them a lot if is people aren't it helps them a lot if they have some help getting their they have some help getting their they have some help getting their website website website set up and get the design done and that set up and get the design done and that set up and get the design done and that makes it a lot easier for people to makes it a lot easier for people to makes it a lot easier for people to decide to pull the trigger decide to pull the trigger decide to pull the trigger and make the switch because it is and make the switch because it is and make the switch because it is difficult to change website providers difficult to change website providers difficult to change website providers like once you have a website up and like once you have a website up and like once you have a website up and running and you have hundreds of pages running and you have hundreds of pages running and you have hundreds of pages on your on your on your on your site or or even 20 pages on your site or or even 20 pages on your site or or even 20 pages sometimes can be a lot sometimes can be a lot sometimes can be a lot um that setup and design makes it a lot um that setup and design makes it a lot um that setup and design makes it a lot easier for somebody to say okay yes i'll easier for somebody to say okay yes i'll easier for somebody to say okay yes i'll go ahead and do that and so go ahead and do that and so go ahead and do that and so it's really about the lifetime value um it's really about the lifetime value um it's really about the lifetime value um but we're willing to but we're willing to but we're willing to break even on that setup fee in order to break even on that setup fee in order to break even on that setup fee in order to help them get help them move over help them get help them move over help them get help them move over am i correct in in assuming that your am i correct in in assuming that your am i correct in in assuming that your churn is quite low and your lifetime churn is quite low and your lifetime churn is quite low and your lifetime value is quite high because of that yeah value is quite high because of that yeah value is quite high because of that yeah right absolutely and and uh it's all right absolutely and and uh it's all right absolutely and and uh it's all about statistics i mean about statistics i mean about statistics i mean obviously uh we don't have you know five obviously uh we don't have you know five obviously uh we don't have you know five years of history to look at years of history to look at years of history to look at we look at our leading indicators for we look at our leading indicators for we look at our leading indicators for for projecting churn for projecting churn for projecting churn um but it but it's been really low thus um but it but it's been really low thus um but it but it's been really low thus far far far are most of your um customers are most of your um customers are most of your um customers less technical i won't say non-technical less technical i won't say non-technical less technical i won't say non-technical but i'm imagining they're not developers but i'm imagining they're not developers but i'm imagining they're not developers they're not web developers they're they're not web developers they're they're not web developers they're folks who run you know i i'm just

folks who run you know i i'm just folks who run you know i i'm just looking at your testimonials looking at your testimonials looking at your testimonials um it's like zoo montana on your home um it's like zoo montana on your home um it's like zoo montana on your home page page page um dang it i saw a few others and um um dang it i saw a few others and um um dang it i saw a few others and um probably at the bottom yeah yeah probably at the bottom yeah yeah probably at the bottom yeah yeah girlhood cultivated hidden montana girlhood cultivated hidden montana girlhood cultivated hidden montana simply family magazine simply family magazine simply family magazine i imagine they do these folks they just i imagine they do these folks they just i imagine they do these folks they just kind of want their the software to get kind of want their the software to get kind of want their the software to get out of their way they don't they don't out of their way they don't they don't out of their way they don't they don't really want software they just want a really want software they just want a really want software they just want a website is that is that a product website is that is that a product website is that is that a product estimation right yeah these are estimation right yeah these are estimation right yeah these are customers that are running a business customers that are running a business customers that are running a business you know um they they have lots of you know um they they have lots of you know um they they have lots of things even if their website is their things even if their website is their things even if their website is their business business business because we have uh quite a few customers because we have uh quite a few customers because we have uh quite a few customers who their business is their website who their business is their website who their business is their website um but they're they're mostly small um but they're they're mostly small um but they're they're mostly small businesses they don't have a businesses they don't have a businesses they don't have a big staff they don't have somebody big staff they don't have somebody big staff they don't have somebody usually dedicated on staff just to their usually dedicated on staff just to their usually dedicated on staff just to their website website website and so the the the less amount of time and so the the the less amount of time and so the the the less amount of time that they can spend on their website the that they can spend on their website the that they can spend on their website the better better better um yeah they're they're not in there um yeah they're they're not in there um yeah they're they're not in there tinkering with wordpress and that's why tinkering with wordpress and that's why tinkering with wordpress and that's why a lot of people switch to us a lot of people switch to us a lot of people switch to us right and so after you you did the pitch right and so after you you did the pitch right and so after you you did the pitch competition competition competition um and then i believe there was another um and then i believe there was another um and then i believe there was another there was like a pitch week or there was there was like a pitch week or there was there was like a pitch week or there was another thing you got like a boot camp another thing you got like a boot camp another thing you got like a boot camp or an excel like a week-long accelerator or an excel like a week-long accelerator or an excel like a week-long accelerator you're involved in you're involved in you're involved in and then you started looking at raising and then you started looking at raising and then you started looking at raising the angel round in march right as the the angel round in march right as the the angel round in march right as the pandemic pandemic pandemic started ramping up um and and started ramping up um and and started ramping up um and and effectively decided not to do that to effectively decided not to do that to effectively decided not to do that to focus on growth instead focus on growth instead focus on growth instead what was the what was the story there what was the what was the story there what was the what was the story there was it purely hey it's kovid was it purely hey it's kovid was it purely hey it's kovid and and the money dried up did you not and and the money dried up did you not and and the money dried up did you not have enough traction have enough traction have enough traction um what you know talk to me a little bit um what you know talk to me a little bit um what you know talk to me a little bit about that about that about that so we we we went from the regional pitch

so we we we went from the regional pitch so we we we went from the regional pitch competition competition competition and i like telling the story because we and i like telling the story because we and i like telling the story because we lost the regional competition lost the regional competition lost the regional competition um we got voted in as a as a wild card um we got voted in as a as a wild card um we got voted in as a as a wild card participant participant participant and we were able to attend the hyper and we were able to attend the hyper and we were able to attend the hyper accelerator and then we participated in accelerator and then we participated in accelerator and then we participated in the statewide comp the statewide comp the statewide comp pitch competition uh and we lost at that pitch competition uh and we lost at that pitch competition uh and we lost at that one one one uh but but we went on and we were able uh but but we went on and we were able uh but but we went on and we were able to raise a to raise a to raise a we did raise a small um amount of we did raise a small um amount of we did raise a small um amount of non-equity financing non-equity financing non-equity financing uh after that like as a result of our uh after that like as a result of our uh after that like as a result of our participation in that participation in that participation in that hyper accelerator and that statewide hyper accelerator and that statewide hyper accelerator and that statewide competition competition competition um but that was small it wasn't a full um but that was small it wasn't a full um but that was small it wasn't a full full seed round it was not an equity full seed round it was not an equity full seed round it was not an equity round round round and so we went in march to try to raise and so we went in march to try to raise and so we went in march to try to raise that that that um and that was right before covid hit um and that was right before covid hit um and that was right before covid hit and and and we decided right after you know not we decided right after you know not we decided right after you know not being able to raise that being able to raise that being able to raise that that seed round that our time would be that seed round that our time would be that seed round that our time would be best spent best spent best spent in instead of um in instead of um in instead of um not being able to work on the product not being able to work on the product not being able to work on the product because we would be out spending months because we would be out spending months because we would be out spending months trying to fundraise trying to fundraise trying to fundraise during a really economically during a really economically during a really economically uncertain time that our time would be uncertain time that our time would be uncertain time that our time would be best spent best spent best spent to to pause on the raise and to just to to pause on the raise and to just to to pause on the raise and to just focus on focus on focus on growing the company so that we have more growing the company so that we have more growing the company so that we have more we're in a much better position to go we're in a much better position to go we're in a much better position to go to go raise if we decide to do that um to go raise if we decide to do that um to go raise if we decide to do that um you know in the future hopefully when you know in the future hopefully when you know in the future hopefully when when things calm down when things calm down when things calm down yeah that makes sense and and jessica yeah that makes sense and and jessica yeah that makes sense and and jessica i'd like to i'd like to i'd like to we have a question actually from uh the

we have a question actually from uh the we have a question actually from uh the microconf on-air channel from microconf on-air channel from microconf on-air channel from rahul he says since a part of your rahul he says since a part of your rahul he says since a part of your core a core part of your value core a core part of your value core a core part of your value proposition is the service bit proposition is the service bit proposition is the service bit uh obviously there's setup and then you uh obviously there's setup and then you uh obviously there's setup and then you do a couple changes per month included do a couple changes per month included do a couple changes per month included in their monthly fee in their monthly fee in their monthly fee how would you scale this to be a venture how would you scale this to be a venture how would you scale this to be a venture funded fundable business funded fundable business funded fundable business and i presume he's saying that if you and i presume he's saying that if you and i presume he's saying that if you were you know you were raising funding were you know you were raising funding were you know you were raising funding so you were thinking this would be a so you were thinking this would be a so you were thinking this would be a venture fundable business yeah so we provide um that service there yeah so we provide um that service there as um you know a lot of our customers as um you know a lot of our customers as um you know a lot of our customers because card setter is so easy to use because card setter is so easy to use because card setter is so easy to use they use that service a lot less than they use that service a lot less than they use that service a lot less than one would think one would think one would think um and so you know the idea is there to um and so you know the idea is there to um and so you know the idea is there to have it there for those folks who have it there for those folks who have it there for those folks who who do need a little extra help um who who do need a little extra help um who who do need a little extra help um who don't want to take care of certain don't want to take care of certain don't want to take care of certain tasks on their own um tasks on their own um tasks on their own um but most of them are able to take care but most of them are able to take care but most of them are able to take care of most of their website tasks on their of most of their website tasks on their of most of their website tasks on their own own own and then on top of that our platform is and then on top of that our platform is and then on top of that our platform is so easy for us to use so easy for us to use so easy for us to use that it's really efficient for us to you that it's really efficient for us to you that it's really efficient for us to you know spin up a website put a design on know spin up a website put a design on know spin up a website put a design on it it it and make changes to it um so it really and make changes to it um so it really and make changes to it um so it really is a matter of trying to become even is a matter of trying to become even is a matter of trying to become even more efficient to minimize the human more efficient to minimize the human more efficient to minimize the human time time time involved in the website uh to then allow involved in the website uh to then allow involved in the website uh to then allow us to scale us to scale us to scale even further right and following up on even further right and following up on even further right and following up on that i mean that i mean that i mean it sounded like it sounds like there was it sounded like it sounds like there was it sounded like it sounds like there was a pivot earlier this year was that a pivot earlier this year was that a pivot earlier this year was that after the the attempted fundraising

is that when you pivoted into um yeah is that when you pivoted into um yeah talk to me about that yeah so actually talk to me about that yeah so actually talk to me about that yeah so actually our pivot took place our pivot took place our pivot took place in december of last year um as i in december of last year um as i in december of last year um as i mentioned we were trying to market mentioned we were trying to market mentioned we were trying to market cardsetter into this niche cardsetter into this niche cardsetter into this niche um and we tried a small test in december um and we tried a small test in december um and we tried a small test in december where we said okay how where we said okay how where we said okay how could we make this really easy offer for could we make this really easy offer for could we make this really easy offer for people to sign up for people to sign up for people to sign up for so you know uh really inexpensive so you know uh really inexpensive so you know uh really inexpensive subscription subscription subscription um ought to do design and set up for um ought to do design and set up for um ought to do design and set up for them put up a landing page and see who them put up a landing page and see who them put up a landing page and see who signs up signs up signs up and we had like 10 sign ups in one day and we had like 10 sign ups in one day and we had like 10 sign ups in one day which was which was which was significant for us at the stage of our significant for us at the stage of our significant for us at the stage of our company and after struggling so much company and after struggling so much company and after struggling so much through last year through last year through last year to try to sell into that niche and we to try to sell into that niche and we to try to sell into that niche and we thought okay thought okay thought okay well that has some life to it well that has some life to it well that has some life to it let's move forward with that um and so let's move forward with that um and so let's move forward with that um and so at that point we changed all of the at that point we changed all of the at that point we changed all of the messaging on our messaging on our messaging on our on our home page to adjust to on our home page to adjust to on our home page to adjust to this more general small business this more general small business this more general small business audience um audience um audience um and start marketing that way and we went and start marketing that way and we went and start marketing that way and we went um really quickly then from our um really quickly then from our um really quickly then from our our 20 customers in december up to 100 our 20 customers in december up to 100 our 20 customers in december up to 100 in july just changing that strategy in july just changing that strategy in july just changing that strategy and what's been the main source of leads and what's been the main source of leads and what's been the main source of leads for you then for you then for you then because i imagine i mean there's a lot because i imagine i mean there's a lot because i imagine i mean there's a lot of tools that do this and i'm curious of tools that do this and i'm curious of tools that do this and i'm curious how people are finding you and you know how people are finding you and you know how people are finding you and you know why they're gravitating towards why they're gravitating towards why they're gravitating towards cardsetter versus the competition i'll take notes on this because it's a i'll take notes on this because it's a very exciting growth hack very exciting growth hack very exciting growth hack direct outreach through cold emails is direct outreach through cold emails is direct outreach through cold emails is how we've how we've how we've we've grown excellent very nice cold

we've grown excellent very nice cold we've grown excellent very nice cold email works i'll tell you email works i'll tell you email works i'll tell you especially with folks who are not especially with folks who are not especially with folks who are not already inundated and with cold email my already inundated and with cold email my already inundated and with cold email my microcomp europe talk from uh microcomp europe talk from uh microcomp europe talk from uh feels like 10 years ago but it was feels like 10 years ago but it was feels like 10 years ago but it was actually about 11 months ago actually about 11 months ago actually about 11 months ago um you know and you can still get on a um you know and you can still get on a um you know and you can still get on a plane and like go places but yeah part plane and like go places but yeah part plane and like go places but yeah part of my microcomputer talk was like what's of my microcomputer talk was like what's of my microcomputer talk was like what's working for working for working for tiny seed companies right because now tiny seed companies right because now tiny seed companies right because now i've i have kind of a view across i've i have kind of a view across i've i have kind of a view across there's 23 i see companies and i have an there's 23 i see companies and i have an there's 23 i see companies and i have an additional additional additional i think it's like 12 angel investments i think it's like 12 angel investments i think it's like 12 angel investments there's about 35 companies that i have there's about 35 companies that i have there's about 35 companies that i have like pretty deep insight into like pretty deep insight into like pretty deep insight into um and one of the things is the cold um and one of the things is the cold um and one of the things is the cold email still works but it only works in email still works but it only works in email still works but it only works in these niches that aren't these niches that aren't these niches that aren't already inundated with it constantly already inundated with it constantly already inundated with it constantly right so i get what five or 10 cold right so i get what five or 10 cold right so i get what five or 10 cold emails a day emails a day emails a day probably not going to get through but it probably not going to get through but it probably not going to get through but it sounds like you're targeting niches and sounds like you're targeting niches and sounds like you're targeting niches and and folks that are not and folks that are not and folks that are not already innovative yeah if we dive a already innovative yeah if we dive a already innovative yeah if we dive a little deeper on that little deeper on that little deeper on that we're really specific with our list so we're really specific with our list so we're really specific with our list so we identify people who we know are we identify people who we know are we identify people who we know are likely to be dissatisfied with their likely to be dissatisfied with their likely to be dissatisfied with their other provider other provider other provider and who are probably paying more than and who are probably paying more than and who are probably paying more than what card setter costs what card setter costs what card setter costs and so that's really helped us drive our and so that's really helped us drive our and so that's really helped us drive our growth and then in addition growth and then in addition growth and then in addition to that you know we are trying we're to that you know we are trying we're to that you know we are trying we're testing other marketing channels but testing other marketing channels but testing other marketing channels but that's the one that's consistently that's the one that's consistently that's the one that's consistently performing for us performing for us performing for us to get to get to this stage and we know to get to get to this stage and we know to get to get to this stage and we know we need to we need to we need to you know diversify from there but that's you know diversify from there but that's you know diversify from there but that's where we're where we're where we're right that's where we're at right now right that's where we're at right now right that's where we're at right now yeah and we have a yeah and we have a yeah and we have a a quick follow-up to that and then i a quick follow-up to that and then i a quick follow-up to that and then i have a couple questions about the phone have a couple questions about the phone have a couple questions about the phone number on your site but uh will johnson number on your site but uh will johnson number on your site but uh will johnson says what kind of response rates on cold says what kind of response rates on cold says what kind of response rates on cold emails are you getting

emails are you getting emails are you getting that's a question for jessica we're that's a question for jessica we're that's a question for jessica we're seeing about you know the typical one to seeing about you know the typical one to seeing about you know the typical one to two two two percent we do oh percent we do oh percent we do oh sorry there's a delay keep going with it sorry there's a delay keep going with it sorry there's a delay keep going with it yeah so we're seeing about a you know yeah so we're seeing about a you know yeah so we're seeing about a you know one to three percent one to three percent one to three percent kind of um uh conversion rate on kind of um uh conversion rate on kind of um uh conversion rate on cold email with that campaign cold email with that campaign cold email with that campaign cool and the next question is from cool and the next question is from cool and the next question is from justin justin it justin justin it justin justin it i have a question for you about phone i have a question for you about phone i have a question for you about phone support but he asks support but he asks support but he asks a little different question you have a a little different question you have a a little different question you have a phone number on your website how many phone number on your website how many phone number on your website how many people call it people call it people call it and i mean literally in the upper right and i mean literally in the upper right and i mean literally in the upper right of your website and i'm actually calling of your website and i'm actually calling of your website and i'm actually calling it now on speakerphone it now on speakerphone it now on speakerphone because i'm curious if one of your because i'm curious if one of your because i'm curious if one of your phones gonna ring in the middle of this phones gonna ring in the middle of this phones gonna ring in the middle of this interview or if it's gonna go to interview or if it's gonna go to interview or if it's gonna go to voicemail voicemail voicemail let's let's see do folks often call it i let's let's see do folks often call it i let's let's see do folks often call it i mean right in the upper right there four mean right in the upper right there four mean right in the upper right there four six two zero one is it really ringing six two zero one is it really ringing six two zero one is it really ringing so see it goes directly to you then wow so see it goes directly to you then wow so see it goes directly to you then wow hi rob hi rob hi rob that's that's awesome so so if i were if that's that's awesome so so if i were if that's that's awesome so so if i were if i ran a hair salon i ran a hair salon i ran a hair salon and and i wanted a website i mean i and and i wanted a website i mean i and and i wanted a website i mean i would get you josh the would get you josh the would get you josh the essentially the lead developer cto of essentially the lead developer cto of essentially the lead developer cto of this product on the phone if i had this product on the phone if i had this product on the phone if i had questions about hey questions about hey questions about hey what's your pricing like and what's your what's your pricing like and what's your what's your pricing like and what's your model like yeah yeah very likely model like yeah yeah very likely model like yeah yeah very likely yeah it would be me answering uh you yeah it would be me answering uh you yeah it would be me answering uh you know i i was know i i was know i i was yeah this has kind of been a test uh yeah this has kind of been a test uh yeah this has kind of been a test uh putting the phone number on there putting the phone number on there putting the phone number on there um because that's what you would think i um because that's what you would think i um because that's what you would think i think that that's conventional wisdom think that that's conventional wisdom think that that's conventional wisdom like oh i don't want to put my like oh i don't want to put my like oh i don't want to put my i have all these people hitting my i have all these people hitting my i have all these people hitting my website i don't want to put my phone website i don't want to put my phone website i don't want to put my phone number on there because i'm not going to number on there because i'm not going to number on there because i'm not going to get any work done because people are get any work done because people are get any work done because people are just going to be calling me all the time

just going to be calling me all the time just going to be calling me all the time um but in reality that that's not what um but in reality that that's not what um but in reality that that's not what we've seen but i do think that that we've seen but i do think that that we've seen but i do think that that builds trust in potential customers builds trust in potential customers builds trust in potential customers to know that there is a phone number to know that there is a phone number to know that there is a phone number where they could talk to a real person where they could talk to a real person where they could talk to a real person if they wanted to um but we don't we we if they wanted to um but we don't we we if they wanted to um but we don't we we don't get a ton of phone calls don't get a ton of phone calls don't get a ton of phone calls we get a lot more emails and text we get a lot more emails and text we get a lot more emails and text messages we have messages we have messages we have we let people text that that same phone we let people text that that same phone we let people text that that same phone number so we get text messages number so we get text messages number so we get text messages uh emails chats and and far fewer uh emails chats and and far fewer uh emails chats and and far fewer phone calls than any of those other kind phone calls than any of those other kind phone calls than any of those other kind of communication methods of communication methods of communication methods yeah but it may make sense in this space yeah but it may make sense in this space yeah but it may make sense in this space with this niche of with this niche of with this niche of less our strategy has also been at this stage our strategy has also been at this stage we just feel that at this stage we just feel that at this stage we just feel that at this stage the less friction that you add the the less friction that you add the the less friction that you add the better so better so better so we just want to keep things easy and let we just want to keep things easy and let we just want to keep things easy and let people contact us people contact us people contact us in the way that makes sense for them and in the way that makes sense for them and in the way that makes sense for them and that may change in the future but it that may change in the future but it that may change in the future but it works for us now works for us now works for us now yeah that's cool yeah i think that goes yeah that's cool yeah i think that goes yeah that's cool yeah i think that goes back to the back to the back to the concept of growth is that we want to uh concept of growth is that we want to uh concept of growth is that we want to uh like minimize the amount of friction so like minimize the amount of friction so like minimize the amount of friction so that to that to that to max the growth and then once uh once max the growth and then once uh once max the growth and then once uh once we're we're we're happy with the with the growth rate that happy with the with the growth rate that happy with the with the growth rate that we're seeing then we can start adding we're seeing then we can start adding we're seeing then we can start adding friction and at key points to help friction and at key points to help friction and at key points to help throttle throttle throttle our growth or throttle the time that we our growth or throttle the time that we our growth or throttle the time that we have available to handle have available to handle have available to handle certain things um but but while we're in certain things um but but while we're in certain things um but but while we're in a mode that we can handle it then we a mode that we can handle it then we a mode that we can handle it then we want to have it as want to have it as want to have it as little friction as possible yep little friction as possible yep little friction as possible yep yeah i think that makes sense we seem to

yeah i think that makes sense we seem to yeah i think that makes sense we seem to have struck a nerve with a cold email have struck a nerve with a cold email have struck a nerve with a cold email because there's like because there's like because there's like a few more questions about that um a few more questions about that um a few more questions about that um jessica i presume these would be for you jessica i presume these would be for you jessica i presume these would be for you but pablo says but pablo says but pablo says how do you choose who to cold email in how do you choose who to cold email in how do you choose who to cold email in essence how do you build your list essence how do you build your list essence how do you build your list so we started as i mentioned um just so we started as i mentioned um just so we started as i mentioned um just identifying customers we knew identifying customers we knew identifying customers we knew were using a different service provider were using a different service provider were using a different service provider that we believed that we believed that we believed um based on reviews uh that we found um based on reviews uh that we found um based on reviews uh that we found online online online that they were likely to be dissatisfied that they were likely to be dissatisfied that they were likely to be dissatisfied with the service that they were signed with the service that they were signed with the service that they were signed up with up with up with and so we went out and you know a lot of and so we went out and you know a lot of and so we went out and you know a lot of website companies website companies website companies uh very clearly state bottom of the uh very clearly state bottom of the uh very clearly state bottom of the website they built the website and so it website they built the website and so it website they built the website and so it was pretty easy to identify those was pretty easy to identify those was pretty easy to identify those customers and then find emails for them customers and then find emails for them customers and then find emails for them and we used a va to help us do that and we used a va to help us do that and we used a va to help us do that faster faster faster and so that is what we started out with and so that is what we started out with and so that is what we started out with and then you know we're looking at and then you know we're looking at and then you know we're looking at different different different uh lists uh that would be useful uh lists uh that would be useful uh lists uh that would be useful um where we could we we could replicate um where we could we we could replicate um where we could we we could replicate that same process with a different that same process with a different that same process with a different customer list and there are lots of customer list and there are lots of customer list and there are lots of services um for those who are looking services um for those who are looking services um for those who are looking for for that kind of thing there are a for for that kind of thing there are a for for that kind of thing there are a lot of lead-based lot of lead-based lot of lead-based uh services out there that have uh services out there that have uh services out there that have databases where you can find leads as databases where you can find leads as databases where you can find leads as well if you don't want to go the va well if you don't want to go the va well if you don't want to go the va route route route yeah lead fuse fuze is one i'm actually yeah lead fuse fuze is one i'm actually yeah lead fuse fuze is one i'm actually an angel investor there and they have a an angel investor there and they have a an angel investor there and they have a really nice database really nice database really nice database that you can cut all you know in all that you can cut all you know in all that you can cut all you know in all types of um types of um types of um ways slice it and dice it there's a

ways slice it and dice it there's a ways slice it and dice it there's a follow-up quote where there's a question follow-up quote where there's a question follow-up quote where there's a question from youtube and i think you've already from youtube and i think you've already from youtube and i think you've already answered it um answered it um answered it um the person asks are you buying your the person asks are you buying your the person asks are you buying your email list and it sounds like you are email list and it sounds like you are email list and it sounds like you are not you are hand constructing them not you are hand constructing them not you are hand constructing them all right with a va yes yep okay and then yes yep okay and then um this is yes from will johnson another um this is yes from will johnson another um this is yes from will johnson another follow-up question he said do you follow-up question he said do you follow-up question he said do you mention your competition mention your competition mention your competition in your cold emails um we have tested that and we did have um we have tested that and we did have some success some success some success with that um but we also saw similar with that um but we also saw similar with that um but we also saw similar success without success without success without directly mentioning the competitor but directly mentioning the competitor but directly mentioning the competitor but speaking to speaking to speaking to the pain points that we saw that their the pain points that we saw that their the pain points that we saw that their customers were customers were customers were experiencing through their reviews and experiencing through their reviews and experiencing through their reviews and through other customers that we've through other customers that we've through other customers that we've converted converted converted who've told us what the pain points were who've told us what the pain points were who've told us what the pain points were of the other service of the other service of the other service and so there is a way to call it out and so there is a way to call it out and so there is a way to call it out without without without um without specifically mentioning the um without specifically mentioning the um without specifically mentioning the company very cool yeah i mean there's some i very cool yeah i mean there's some i think there's some good lessons here think there's some good lessons here think there's some good lessons here because because because it's you're targeting it's you're targeting it's you're targeting some online and some offline businesses some online and some offline businesses some online and some offline businesses you're using cold email and making that you're using cold email and making that you're using cold email and making that work work work you have a phone number on your website you have a phone number on your website you have a phone number on your website that people can text or call that people can text or call that people can text or call not only for sales but for support as not only for sales but for support as not only for sales but for support as well well well and i think a lot of bootstrappers and i think a lot of bootstrappers and i think a lot of bootstrappers especially time strapped especially time strapped especially time strapped um often developers who don't we don't um often developers who don't we don't um often developers who don't we don't want to necessarily want to necessarily want to necessarily don't want a cold email don't want to don't want a cold email don't want to don't want a cold email don't want to have someone calling them on the phone have someone calling them on the phone have someone calling them on the phone like i i think that there

like i i think that there like i i think that there this shows that this type of model can this shows that this type of model can this shows that this type of model can be successful i'm to have be successful i'm to have be successful i'm to have basically 5xed your revenue you know in basically 5xed your revenue you know in basically 5xed your revenue you know in the last eight or nine months the last eight or nine months the last eight or nine months yeah about seven or eight months i guess yeah about seven or eight months i guess yeah about seven or eight months i guess um shows that that you're really doing um shows that that you're really doing um shows that that you're really doing something right and you've tapped into a something right and you've tapped into a something right and you've tapped into a formula that's working yeah i think it's about being good oh go yeah i think it's about being good oh go ahead ahead ahead rob i was just gonna say do you feel rob i was just gonna say do you feel rob i was just gonna say do you feel like like like you know i've been there where i start a you know i've been there where i start a you know i've been there where i start a business and it's like you're you're business and it's like you're you're business and it's like you're you're just just just scratching and clawing and you're at 10 scratching and clawing and you're at 10 scratching and clawing and you're at 10 customers and then 12 and then 14 and customers and then 12 and then 14 and customers and then 12 and then 14 and it's like oh my gosh this is never going it's like oh my gosh this is never going it's like oh my gosh this is never going to do anything and suddenly to do anything and suddenly to do anything and suddenly you're at 100 right and does it feel you're at 100 right and does it feel you're at 100 right and does it feel like josh like you've hit product market like josh like you've hit product market like josh like you've hit product market fit at this point do you feel like fit at this point do you feel like fit at this point do you feel like you're starting to you're starting to you're starting to to scale up does it feel like that from to scale up does it feel like that from to scale up does it feel like that from the inside because the numbers feel like the inside because the numbers feel like the inside because the numbers feel like that you know from the outside obviously that you know from the outside obviously that you know from the outside obviously you're still you're still you're still early and if we do if i do lose math and early and if we do if i do lose math and early and if we do if i do lose math and say you have 100 customers say you have 100 customers say you have 100 customers and your price point is you have a 49 and your price point is you have a 49 and your price point is you have a 49 and a 129 and if we just take and a 129 and if we just take and a 129 and if we just take you know 75 or 80 dollars um that would you know 75 or 80 dollars um that would you know 75 or 80 dollars um that would put you around and you don't have to put you around and you don't have to put you around and you don't have to divulge your mrr but i'm just doing divulge your mrr but i'm just doing divulge your mrr but i'm just doing loose math as i would on loose math as i would on loose math as i would on on any um you know sas app i'm going to on any um you know sas app i'm going to on any um you know sas app i'm going to guess you're approaching 10k of mrr guess you're approaching 10k of mrr guess you're approaching 10k of mrr which is a pretty good mark where i which is a pretty good mark where i which is a pretty good mark where i start thinking start thinking start thinking um product market fit right typically it um product market fit right typically it um product market fit right typically it depends but typically between 5 and 10k depends but typically between 5 and 10k depends but typically between 5 and 10k mrr is like a good sign that product mrr is like a good sign that product mrr is like a good sign that product market fit is happening market fit is happening market fit is happening so you know josh i'm curious if that's so you know josh i'm curious if that's so you know josh i'm curious if that's how it feels to you on the inside as how it feels to you on the inside as how it feels to you on the inside as well well well it's like hey churn is low a lot of it's like hey churn is low a lot of it's like hey churn is low a lot of people convert um people convert um people convert um and you're building something scalable and you're building something scalable and you're building something scalable here yeah

here yeah here yeah i i can tell you um we spent i i can tell you um we spent i i can tell you um we spent a lot of time last year doing that a lot of time last year doing that a lot of time last year doing that client scratching piece client scratching piece client scratching piece where we definitely didn't have where we definitely didn't have where we definitely didn't have product market fit you know and then we product market fit you know and then we product market fit you know and then we we changed our audience changed our we changed our audience changed our we changed our audience changed our offering a little bit offering a little bit offering a little bit um and yeah all of a sudden now we're um and yeah all of a sudden now we're um and yeah all of a sudden now we're growing so i growing so i growing so i i do feel you know it i think product i do feel you know it i think product i do feel you know it i think product market fit is it's a market fit is it's a market fit is it's a it's a difficult thing to really it's a difficult thing to really it's a difficult thing to really describe like oh now we have it just describe like oh now we have it just describe like oh now we have it just right because right because right because you know from the inside we do we face you know from the inside we do we face you know from the inside we do we face our own problems our own problems our own problems and we're growing quickly and so we have and we're growing quickly and so we have and we're growing quickly and so we have new problems every two weeks i feel like new problems every two weeks i feel like new problems every two weeks i feel like we have a whole new set of problems we have a whole new set of problems we have a whole new set of problems um but i think that that just the growth um but i think that that just the growth um but i think that that just the growth that we've seen thus far is that we've seen thus far is that we've seen thus far is is telling us that we're that we're on is telling us that we're that we're on is telling us that we're that we're on the right path the right path the right path yeah yeah and that's i mean for yeah yeah and that's i mean for yeah yeah and that's i mean for listeners like i don't view product listeners like i don't view product listeners like i don't view product market market market as a binary i don't think almost unless as a binary i don't think almost unless as a binary i don't think almost unless you've never had it you know it's like you've never had it you know it's like you've never had it you know it's like zero to one it's not it's like zero to a zero to one it's not it's like zero to a zero to one it's not it's like zero to a hundred hundred hundred and typically you get the more you tick and typically you get the more you tick and typically you get the more you tick up and then you have ten percent and up and then you have ten percent and up and then you have ten percent and then you have twenty percent and thirty then you have twenty percent and thirty then you have twenty percent and thirty percent forty percent forty percent forty and then what i've found is you'll often and then what i've found is you'll often and then what i've found is you'll often start getting up oh fifty sixty percent start getting up oh fifty sixty percent start getting up oh fifty sixty percent this is amazing i have this major part this is amazing i have this major part this is amazing i have this major part of my fit and then a new audience finds of my fit and then a new audience finds of my fit and then a new audience finds out about you out about you out about you and then they start approaching and and then they start approaching and and then they start approaching and suddenly your product market fit with suddenly your product market fit with suddenly your product market fit with you know your two audiences now are you you know your two audiences now are you you know your two audiences now are you two niches or your two groups of two niches or your two groups of two niches or your two groups of customers customers customers it averages down and you start losing it it averages down and you start losing it it averages down and you start losing it you still have it with that old group you still have it with that old group you still have it with that old group but the new group almost makes you feel but the new group almost makes you feel but the new group almost makes you feel like oh my gosh we've lost it even like oh my gosh we've lost it even like oh my gosh we've lost it even though you're probably growing faster though you're probably growing faster though you're probably growing faster and that will just continue to happen and that will just continue to happen and that will just continue to happen especially if you're kind of a vertical especially if you're kind of a vertical especially if you're kind of a vertical niche play and you're expanding into niche play and you're expanding into niche play and you're expanding into other verticals the new verticals you're other verticals the new verticals you're other verticals the new verticals you're going to start going to start going to start back at square one you know at 10 and

back at square one you know at 10 and back at square one you know at 10 and have to have to work your way up so have to have to work your way up so have to have to work your way up so it sounds like that maybe is in line it sounds like that maybe is in line it sounds like that maybe is in line with with what you're feeling with with what you're feeling with with what you're feeling yeah yeah i think that describes it yeah yeah i think that describes it yeah yeah i think that describes it pretty well we've actually signed up more people we've actually signed up more people from the original audience from the original audience from the original audience under the new messaging than we did when under the new messaging than we did when under the new messaging than we did when we were we were we were specifically marketing to them yep specifically marketing to them yep specifically marketing to them yep so yeah that's awesome sounds good well so yeah that's awesome sounds good well so yeah that's awesome sounds good well thank you we're at time already um thank thank you we're at time already um thank thank you we're at time already um thank you guys so much for joining me today you guys so much for joining me today you guys so much for joining me today again if folks want to again if folks want to again if folks want to if they want to keep up with you if they want to keep up with you if they want to keep up with you obviously you're at card setter.com um obviously you're at card setter.com um obviously you're at card setter.com um jessica baldwin you are at jessica jessica baldwin you are at jessica jessica baldwin you are at jessica underscore b365 underscore b365 underscore b365 on twitter and josh tenis is on twitter and josh tenis is on twitter and josh tenis is joshua tennis you're gonna have to look joshua tennis you're gonna have to look joshua tennis you're gonna have to look at the show notes at the show notes at the show notes oh yeah you can see it in the video it's oh yeah you can see it in the video it's oh yeah you can see it in the video it's not it's not a phonetic spelling but uh so jessica josh thank you so much again so jessica josh thank you so much again for joining me on the show for joining me on the show for joining me on the show thanks rob for having us absolutely thanks rob for having us absolutely thanks rob for having us absolutely all right as we wrap microconf remote is all right as we wrap microconf remote is all right as we wrap microconf remote is coming to a september 1st and this is coming to a september 1st and this is coming to a september 1st and this is the first mention i get to make of this the first mention i get to make of this the first mention i get to make of this we have a new guest we're doing q a ama we have a new guest we're doing q a ama we have a new guest we're doing q a ama style the story of building hey.com with style the story of building hey.com with style the story of building hey.com with jason jason jason freed so he and i are going to be freed so he and i are going to be freed so he and i are going to be riffing for a bit all attendees riffing for a bit all attendees riffing for a bit all attendees will be seated at tables in microcomp will be seated at tables in microcomp will be seated at tables in microcomp remote so they can tables in quotes remote so they can tables in quotes remote so they can tables in quotes right so they can chat with uh with right so they can chat with uh with right so they can chat with uh with folks folks folks during the event so we're going to have during the event so we're going to have during the event so we're going to have a hallway track we're going to set it up a hallway track we're going to set it up a hallway track we're going to set it up microcomp style microcomp style microcomp style get tickets at microconf remote.com for get tickets at microconf remote.com for get tickets at microconf remote.com for the prices go up next week

the prices go up next week the prices go up next week thank you so much for joining me see you thank you so much for joining me see you thank you so much for joining me see you here next wednesday