Vice President JD Vance: They Tricked Me About Trump, I Was Wrong!

The Biden administration just like The Biden administration just like really screwed up our immigration policy really screwed up our immigration policy really screwed up our immigration policy in a profoundly dangerous way. in a profoundly dangerous way. in a profoundly dangerous way. >> But even if you agree that immigration >> But even if you agree that immigration >> But even if you agree that immigration is a problem, it seems division is the is a problem, it seems division is the is a problem, it seems division is the most compelling narrative for most compelling narrative for most compelling narrative for politicians. I remember this particular politicians. I remember this particular politicians. I remember this particular quote about the black community where he quote about the black community where he quote about the black community where he said said said >> What do you have to lose? >> What do you have to lose? >> What do you have to lose? >> I'm a black man. I feel like I've got >> I'm a black man. I feel like I've got >> I'm a black man. I feel like I've got things to lose. And my concern [music] things to lose. And my concern [music] things to lose. And my concern [music] is when the Western narrative is that is when the Western narrative is that is when the Western narrative is that it's the brown people that are the it's the brown people that are the it's the brown people that are the reason that your life is hard or like reason that your life is hard or like reason that your life is hard or like Mexicans and murderers. If I heard that Mexicans and murderers. If I heard that Mexicans and murderers. If I heard that from my political leaders, it's from my political leaders, it's from my political leaders, it's conceivable that I might be angry at my conceivable that I might be angry at my conceivable that I might be angry at my neighbor even though they've done neighbor even though they've done neighbor even though they've done nothing. nothing. nothing. >> But let me just say very often what the >> But let me just say very often what the >> But let me just say very often what the president is accused of saying he didn't president is accused of saying he didn't president is accused of saying he didn't say it or there was much greater say it or there was much greater say it or there was much greater context. context. context. >> You wouldn't say that. >> You wouldn't say that. >> You wouldn't say that. >> But I but but I think look, the >> But I but but I think look, the >> But I but but I think look, the president I certainly have way different president I certainly have way different president I certainly have way different styles. But Donald Trump is much styles. But Donald Trump is much styles. But Donald Trump is much different [music] as a human being than different [music] as a human being than different [music] as a human being than the media makes him out to be. the media makes him out to be. the media makes him out to be. >> But back in 2016, there was a private >> But back in 2016, there was a private >> But back in 2016, there was a private message between you and a roommate where message between you and a roommate where message between you and a roommate where you said Trump was either a cynical you said Trump was either a cynical you said Trump was either a cynical or America's Hitler. or America's Hitler. or America's Hitler. How do you go from that position to How do you go from that position to How do you go from that position to vice president of the same person? What vice president of the same person? What vice president of the same person? What what is that journey? what is that journey? what is that journey? >> A crazy journey, man, but look, I >> A crazy journey, man, but look, I >> A crazy journey, man, but look, I thought Donald Trump would be a failed thought Donald Trump would be a failed thought Donald Trump would be a failed president. He was not. I thought that president. He was not. I thought that president. He was not. I thought that America's institutions were America's institutions were America's institutions were fundamentally functioning. They were fundamentally functioning. They were fundamentally functioning. They were not. You always have to be able to not. You always have to be able to not. You always have to be able to acknowledge when you're right and when acknowledge when you're right and when acknowledge when you're right and when you're wrong. Like he's so you're wrong. Like he's so you're wrong. Like he's so non-conventional in the way that he does non-conventional in the way that he does non-conventional in the way that he does everything that things that were everything that things that were everything that things that were previously unimaginable are actually on previously unimaginable are actually on previously unimaginable are actually on the table. This peace deal with Iran, the table. This peace deal with Iran, the table. This peace deal with Iran, for example.

for example. for example. >> But there's been lots of false deals. >> But there's been lots of false deals. >> But there's been lots of false deals. >> Well, this one's real, so. [music] >> Well, this one's real, so. [music] >> Well, this one's real, so. [music] >> And Israel, Trump called Netanyahu a >> And Israel, Trump called Netanyahu a >> And Israel, Trump called Netanyahu a very difficult guy. very difficult guy. very difficult guy. >> What does Netanyahu want? >> What does Netanyahu want? >> What does Netanyahu want? >> I don't know. All I'd say is that we're >> I don't know. All I'd say is that we're >> I don't know. All I'd say is that we're different countries with different different countries with different different countries with different interests. interests. interests. >> Do you trust them? >> Do you trust them? >> Do you trust them? >> I don't really trust anybody. But having >> I don't really trust anybody. But having >> I don't really trust anybody. But having [music] seen the president of the United [music] seen the president of the United [music] seen the president of the United States operate, I feel quite confident States operate, I feel quite confident States operate, I feel quite confident that they are the junior partner, we're that they are the junior partner, we're that they are the junior partner, we're the senior partner, we are the world's the senior partner, we are the world's the senior partner, we are the world's [music] superpower. [music] superpower. [music] superpower. >> I'm going to take out a little bit of a >> I'm going to take out a little bit of a >> I'm going to take out a little bit of a hot take. Um, do you think aliens could hot take. Um, do you think aliens could hot take. Um, do you think aliens could be real? be real? be real? >> I do. >> I do. >> I do. >> Mr. Vice President, I had no idea about >> Mr. Vice President, I had no idea about >> Mr. Vice President, I had no idea about your earliest context. your earliest context. your earliest context. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it hasn't formed what I've then seen >> And it hasn't formed what I've then seen >> And it hasn't formed what I've then seen from you later as an adult, but can you from you later as an adult, but can you from you later as an adult, but can you take me back? >> The emotion is still right on the >> The emotion is still right on the surface for you. surface for you. surface for you. >> Very much so. >> Very much so. >> Very much so. >> This is super interesting to me. My team >> This is super interesting to me. My team >> This is super interesting to me. My team gave me this report to show me how many gave me this report to show me how many gave me this report to show me how many of you that watch this show subscribe, of you that watch this show subscribe, of you that watch this show subscribe, and some of you have told us, according and some of you have told us, according and some of you have told us, according to this, that you are unsubscribed from to this, that you are unsubscribed from to this, that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly. So, favor to ask the channel randomly. So, favor to ask the channel randomly. So, favor to ask all of you, please could you check right all of you, please could you check right all of you, please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button now if you've hit the subscribe button now if you've hit the subscribe button if you are regular viewer of the show if you are regular viewer of the show if you are regular viewer of the show and you like what we do here. We're and you like what we do here. We're and you like what we do here. We're approaching quite a significant landmark approaching quite a significant landmark approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber on this show in terms of a subscriber on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So, if there was one simple free number. So, if there was one simple free number. So, if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my thing that you could do to help us, my thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here, to keep this show team, everyone here, to keep this show team, everyone here, to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over free, to keep it improving year over free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to year and week over week, it is just to year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to hit that subscribe button and to hit that subscribe button and to double-check if you've hit it. Only double-check if you've hit it. Only double-check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll ever ask of you.

thing I'll ever ask of you. thing I'll ever ask of you. Do we have a deal? Do we have a deal? Do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure do. I'll make sure do. I'll make sure every single week, every single month, every single week, every single month, every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder and harder we fight harder and harder and harder we fight harder and harder and harder and harder to bring you the guests and and harder to bring you the guests and and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear. I conversations that you want to hear. I conversations that you want to hear. I stay true to that promise since the very stay true to that promise since the very stay true to that promise since the very beginning of The Diary of a CEO, and I beginning of The Diary of a CEO, and I beginning of The Diary of a CEO, and I will not let you down. Please help us. will not let you down. Please help us. will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get on with Really appreciate it. Let's get on with Really appreciate it. Let's get on with the show. the show. the show. >> [music] >> Mr. Vice President, >> Mr. Vice President, I have your book here. I have your book here. I have your book here. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And it says, "Of all the things that I >> And it says, "Of all the things that I >> And it says, "Of all the things that I hated about my childhood, nothing hated about my childhood, nothing hated about my childhood, nothing compared to the revolving door of father compared to the revolving door of father compared to the revolving door of father figures. figures. figures. I hated the disruption, and I hated how I hated the disruption, and I hated how I hated the disruption, and I hated how often these boyfriends would walk out of often these boyfriends would walk out of often these boyfriends would walk out of my life my life my life just as I began to like them." I always think to understand I always think to understand the people that are sat in front of me, the people that are sat in front of me, the people that are sat in front of me, you have to take get a picture of that you have to take get a picture of that you have to take get a picture of that early context. early context. early context. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And I had no idea about your earliest >> And I had no idea about your earliest >> And I had no idea about your earliest context. context. context. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it it has in some respects informed >> And it it has in some respects informed >> And it it has in some respects informed what I've then seen from you later as an what I've then seen from you later as an what I've then seen from you later as an adult, but can you take me back adult, but can you take me back adult, but can you take me back >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> to your earliest context and explain >> to your earliest context and explain >> to your earliest context and explain that quote for me?

that quote for me? that quote for me? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Yeah, so um I I was raised in very >> Yeah, so um I I was raised in very >> Yeah, so um I I was raised in very working-class town, very working-class working-class town, very working-class working-class town, very working-class family. You know, this is a photo of me family. You know, this is a photo of me family. You know, this is a photo of me when I was a little kid here. when I was a little kid here. when I was a little kid here. And [snorts] my family, like a lot of And [snorts] my family, like a lot of And [snorts] my family, like a lot of other families in similar circumstances, other families in similar circumstances, other families in similar circumstances, we struggled. We struggled to adapt to we struggled. We struggled to adapt to we struggled. We struggled to adapt to middle class life. Yeah, this is my middle class life. Yeah, this is my middle class life. Yeah, this is my sister and my grandfather. It's sister and my grandfather. It's sister and my grandfather. It's interesting my my my grandfather had interesting my my my grandfather had interesting my my my grandfather had very low formal education. He graduated very low formal education. He graduated very low formal education. He graduated from high school. My grandmother from high school. My grandmother from high school. My grandmother actually left school when she was 13. actually left school when she was 13. actually left school when she was 13. Very religious people, particularly my Very religious people, particularly my Very religious people, particularly my grandmother, but you know, they they grandmother, but you know, they they grandmother, but you know, they they struggled pretty much economically for struggled pretty much economically for struggled pretty much economically for most of their lives. My grandfather died most of their lives. My grandfather died most of their lives. My grandfather died when I was 13. I think my grandmother when I was 13. I think my grandmother when I was 13. I think my grandmother died when I was 20. died when I was 20. died when I was 20. And you know, this is yeah, this is And you know, this is yeah, this is And you know, this is yeah, this is right this probably not even a year right this probably not even a year right this probably not even a year before she died. And I was about to go before she died. And I was about to go before she died. And I was about to go to Iraq and she was very old and frail. to Iraq and she was very old and frail. to Iraq and she was very old and frail. And this is one of the last photos of And this is one of the last photos of And this is one of the last photos of the two of us. And this is really the the two of us. And this is really the the two of us. And this is really the woman who raised me because you raised woman who raised me because you raised woman who raised me because you raised the the revolving door of father the the revolving door of father the the revolving door of father figures. So, Mom amazing person. She's figures. So, Mom amazing person. She's figures. So, Mom amazing person. She's been clean and sober for now 11 years. been clean and sober for now 11 years. been clean and sober for now 11 years. But she was was in the throes of a But she was was in the throes of a But she was was in the throes of a pretty bad addiction problem for much of pretty bad addiction problem for much of pretty bad addiction problem for much of my childhood. And so, this was kind of my childhood. And so, this was kind of my childhood. And so, this was kind of my savior. This was the person who my savior. This was the person who my savior. This was the person who stepped in and made sure I had a stable stepped in and made sure I had a stable stepped in and made sure I had a stable life to the extent that I did.

life to the extent that I did. life to the extent that I did. >> And your grandmother, she got pregnant >> And your grandmother, she got pregnant >> And your grandmother, she got pregnant at 13. at 13. at 13. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And she had a miscarriage at that age? >> And she had a miscarriage at that age? >> And she had a miscarriage at that age? >> Yeah, that's right. So, think about >> Yeah, that's right. So, think about >> Yeah, that's right. So, think about this. Eastern Kentucky, you're talking this. Eastern Kentucky, you're talking this. Eastern Kentucky, you're talking about the hills of an extremely about the hills of an extremely about the hills of an extremely impoverished, very rural part of the impoverished, very rural part of the impoverished, very rural part of the United States of America. United States of America. United States of America. And so, you know, she is dating my And so, you know, she is dating my And so, you know, she is dating my grandfather who I think at the time was grandfather who I think at the time was grandfather who I think at the time was 16. She's 13. So, these are children. 16. She's 13. So, these are children. 16. She's 13. So, these are children. She gets pregnant. They move to Ohio for She gets pregnant. They move to Ohio for She gets pregnant. They move to Ohio for more opportunity because you you just more opportunity because you you just more opportunity because you you just couldn't build a good life for yourself. couldn't build a good life for yourself. couldn't build a good life for yourself. There weren't enough good jobs in that There weren't enough good jobs in that There weren't enough good jobs in that part of the world. And she had a part of the world. And she had a part of the world. And she had a miscarriage. So, like the thing that miscarriage. So, like the thing that miscarriage. So, like the thing that brought her out of her home brought her out of her home brought her out of her home I think hastened them getting married. I I think hastened them getting married. I I think hastened them getting married. I don't think they would have gotten don't think they would have gotten don't think they would have gotten married at 13 and 16 were it not for married at 13 and 16 were it not for married at 13 and 16 were it not for this unplanned pregnancy. You know, she this unplanned pregnancy. You know, she this unplanned pregnancy. You know, she was kind of in it then. So, they're was kind of in it then. So, they're was kind of in it then. So, they're married. They have a very chaotic married. They have a very chaotic married. They have a very chaotic marriage, an abusive marriage in a lot marriage, an abusive marriage in a lot marriage, an abusive marriage in a lot of ways. of ways. of ways. But they have three kids, my mom, my But they have three kids, my mom, my But they have three kids, my mom, my uncle, my aunt. And the story of our uncle, my aunt. And the story of our uncle, my aunt. And the story of our family is in some ways some of us were family is in some ways some of us were family is in some ways some of us were able to kind of break the cycle and some able to kind of break the cycle and some able to kind of break the cycle and some of us weren't. And part of what of us weren't. And part of what of us weren't. And part of what motivated me to write that book is motivated me to write that book is motivated me to write that book is trying to understand why is it Why is it trying to understand why is it Why is it trying to understand why is it Why is it that life worked out for some of us and that life worked out for some of us and that life worked out for some of us and didn't work out for others?

didn't work out for others? didn't work out for others? >> So, your biological father. >> So, your biological father. >> So, your biological father. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He >> He >> He he put you up for adoption. he put you up for adoption. he put you up for adoption. >> So, he did. So, I was adopted by a man >> So, he did. So, I was adopted by a man >> So, he did. So, I was adopted by a man when I was five or six years old by the when I was five or six years old by the when I was five or six years old by the name of Robert Hamill. name of Robert Hamill. name of Robert Hamill. And he became and is still technically, And he became and is still technically, And he became and is still technically, if you look at my birth certificate, he if you look at my birth certificate, he if you look at my birth certificate, he is still listed as my legal father. Now, is still listed as my legal father. Now, is still listed as my legal father. Now, he was in the picture from call it I was he was in the picture from call it I was he was in the picture from call it I was seven until 10 or 11. seven until 10 or 11. seven until 10 or 11. And then he and mom got divorced. He And then he and mom got divorced. He And then he and mom got divorced. He still stuck around for a little bit still stuck around for a little bit still stuck around for a little bit after that, but by the time I was 12 after that, but by the time I was 12 after that, but by the time I was 12 years old, he was just gone. years old, he was just gone. years old, he was just gone. Never talked to him again, never saw him Never talked to him again, never saw him Never talked to him again, never saw him again. And again. And again. And >> And am I right in thinking this is the >> And am I right in thinking this is the >> And am I right in thinking this is the the third man in your life at this point the third man in your life at this point the third man in your life at this point because your sister, Lindsey, because your sister, Lindsey, because your sister, Lindsey, comes from a different father. comes from a different father. comes from a different father. >> That's right. So, so her father, very >> That's right. So, so her father, very >> That's right. So, so her father, very good guy. She's five or six years older good guy. She's five or six years older good guy. She's five or six years older than me. And so, he was the first of my than me. And so, he was the first of my than me. And so, he was the first of my mother's husbands. And then my dad, my mother's husbands. And then my dad, my mother's husbands. And then my dad, my biological father, was number two. And biological father, was number two. And biological father, was number two. And then my legal father was number three. then my legal father was number three. then my legal father was number three. And then, you know, things sort of got a And then, you know, things sort of got a And then, you know, things sort of got a little quicker from that point forward.

little quicker from that point forward. little quicker from that point forward. So, there was a there was a there was So, there was a there was a there was So, there was a there was a there was more turnover, let's say, in the more turnover, let's say, in the more turnover, let's say, in the relationships in that point forward. relationships in that point forward. relationships in that point forward. >> There was also a guy called Matt >> There was also a guy called Matt >> There was also a guy called Matt thereafter at 13 years old that your mom thereafter at 13 years old that your mom thereafter at 13 years old that your mom had Matt. had Matt. had Matt. >> Yeah, yeah, good guy. Very close to him. >> Yeah, yeah, good guy. Very close to him. >> Yeah, yeah, good guy. Very close to him. He actually is very political. And so, He actually is very political. And so, He actually is very political. And so, he and I reconnected a little bit over he and I reconnected a little bit over he and I reconnected a little bit over our shared interest in politics, but he our shared interest in politics, but he our shared interest in politics, but he was just a a good, hard-working guy. You was just a a good, hard-working guy. You was just a a good, hard-working guy. You know, he was only around for maybe a few know, he was only around for maybe a few know, he was only around for maybe a few years, probably less than that in my years, probably less than that in my years, probably less than that in my life, but he was a a significant and life, but he was a a significant and life, but he was a a significant and positive force. positive force. positive force. >> In your book, page 124, you say living >> In your book, page 124, you say living >> In your book, page 124, you say living with mom and Matt, which is when you with mom and Matt, which is when you with mom and Matt, which is when you were 14 years old, was like a front row were 14 years old, was like a front row were 14 years old, was like a front row seat to the end of the world. seat to the end of the world. seat to the end of the world. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was just chaotic, right? I Well, it was just chaotic, right? I Well, it was just chaotic, right? I mean, the things that I thought of as mean, the things that I thought of as mean, the things that I thought of as normal that I later realized and, you normal that I later realized and, you normal that I later realized and, you know, talking to my wife or talking to know, talking to my wife or talking to know, talking to my wife or talking to friends that just the level of friends that just the level of friends that just the level of relationship instability, you know, relationship instability, you know, relationship instability, you know, fighting, people throwing stuff. If the fighting, people throwing stuff. If the fighting, people throwing stuff. If the fights get really bad, some person fights get really bad, some person fights get really bad, some person throws a plate at somebody else. Again, throws a plate at somebody else. Again, throws a plate at somebody else. Again, it sounds, even talking about it now, it sounds, even talking about it now, it sounds, even talking about it now, kind of crazy, but it was pretty normal kind of crazy, but it was pretty normal kind of crazy, but it was pretty normal back then. And back then. And back then. And you know, sometimes it was worse and you know, sometimes it was worse and you know, sometimes it was worse and sometimes it was better, but there was a sometimes it was better, but there was a sometimes it was better, but there was a sense in which relationships were always sense in which relationships were always sense in which relationships were always just kind of chaotic.

just kind of chaotic. just kind of chaotic. >> As an adult, you know, you like you can >> As an adult, you know, you like you can >> As an adult, you know, you like you can almost imagine now that you've got so almost imagine now that you've got so almost imagine now that you've got so many kids yourself that many kids yourself that many kids yourself that >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I can understand the feeling >> I I can understand the feeling >> I I can understand the feeling >> of >> of >> of >> craziness being normal and you kind of >> craziness being normal and you kind of >> craziness being normal and you kind of don't realize until you see into someone don't realize until you see into someone don't realize until you see into someone else's world or someone else hears about else's world or someone else hears about else's world or someone else hears about yours. yours. yours. >> Cuz I can relate to that in many ways, >> Cuz I can relate to that in many ways, >> Cuz I can relate to that in many ways, but as an adult you must look back on but as an adult you must look back on but as an adult you must look back on that and now see the the way that that that and now see the the way that that that and now see the the way that that shaped you. shaped you. shaped you. >> Yeah. Well, it was very unhealthy. >> Yeah. Well, it was very unhealthy. >> Yeah. Well, it was very unhealthy. Um I I certainly think it again it was Um I I certainly think it again it was Um I I certainly think it again it was hard to sort of really feel a sense of hard to sort of really feel a sense of hard to sort of really feel a sense of stability. It was hard to really attach stability. It was hard to really attach stability. It was hard to really attach to people because you always assumed to people because you always assumed to people because you always assumed that they were going to be gone. that they were going to be gone. that they were going to be gone. And you know, years later I was I was And you know, years later I was I was And you know, years later I was I was talking to I was actually at a a talking to I was actually at a a talking to I was actually at a a conference. I was giving a speech and conference. I was giving a speech and conference. I was giving a speech and this this this >> guy came up to me >> guy came up to me >> guy came up to me >> and he was a child psychologist. >> and he was a child psychologist. >> and he was a child psychologist. And you know, he said, you know, one of And you know, he said, you know, one of And you know, he said, you know, one of the things the literature shows is that the things the literature shows is that the things the literature shows is that people who come from traumatic or people who come from traumatic or people who come from traumatic or chaotic environments and end up doing chaotic environments and end up doing chaotic environments and end up doing pretty well, they always have one pretty well, they always have one pretty well, they always have one person, whether it was a teacher or a person, whether it was a teacher or a person, whether it was a teacher or a social worker, a grandparent, an aunt or social worker, a grandparent, an aunt or social worker, a grandparent, an aunt or an uncle. They always have one person an uncle. They always have one person an uncle. They always have one person who's sort of their anchor. And that who's sort of their anchor. And that who's sort of their anchor. And that seems to be the difference for a lot of seems to be the difference for a lot of seems to be the difference for a lot of these kids. And And again, I was lucky these kids. And And again, I was lucky these kids. And And again, I was lucky enough to have that. And I think about enough to have that. And I think about enough to have that. And I think about my life a lot of time. I mean, sitting my life a lot of time. I mean, sitting my life a lot of time. I mean, sitting here I'm the Vice President of the here I'm the Vice President of the here I'm the Vice President of the United States. What would my life have United States. What would my life have United States. What would my life have turned out to be if you had all that turned out to be if you had all that turned out to be if you had all that chaos, which was just a background part chaos, which was just a background part chaos, which was just a background part of my life, but you take out those of my life, but you take out those of my life, but you take out those stabilizing forces?

stabilizing forces? stabilizing forces? >> Your grandmother. >> Your grandmother. >> Your grandmother. >> Your grandmother. My grandmother. That's >> Your grandmother. My grandmother. That's >> Your grandmother. My grandmother. That's right. right. right. >> Cuz in through your story when I was >> Cuz in through your story when I was >> Cuz in through your story when I was reading about your childhood, she seemed reading about your childhood, she seemed reading about your childhood, she seemed like the safe place that you would like the safe place that you would like the safe place that you would retreat to retreat to retreat to >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> over and over again. >> over and over again. >> over and over again. >> You know, I was obviously I I I think >> You know, I was obviously I I I think >> You know, I was obviously I I I think it's very important for boys to have it's very important for boys to have it's very important for boys to have male role models, to have father figures male role models, to have father figures male role models, to have father figures that they look up to. that they look up to. that they look up to. She was in in an unconventional way like She was in in an unconventional way like She was in in an unconventional way like both a mother figure and a father both a mother figure and a father both a mother figure and a father figure. She was extraordinarily odd, and figure. She was extraordinarily odd, and figure. She was extraordinarily odd, and I mean that in the most loving way I mean that in the most loving way I mean that in the most loving way possible, but she was just incredibly possible, but she was just incredibly possible, but she was just incredibly tough. You know, I was I don't know I tough. You know, I was I don't know I tough. You know, I was I don't know I was 12, 13. I was hanging out with one was 12, 13. I was hanging out with one was 12, 13. I was hanging out with one of the kids in the neighborhood who was of the kids in the neighborhood who was of the kids in the neighborhood who was kind of going down a bad path. He kind of going down a bad path. He kind of going down a bad path. He actually would later spend some time in actually would later spend some time in actually would later spend some time in jail, but you know, he was getting into jail, but you know, he was getting into jail, but you know, he was getting into drugs, starting to smoke weed, starting drugs, starting to smoke weed, starting drugs, starting to smoke weed, starting to do a little bit more than that. to do a little bit more than that. to do a little bit more than that. Again, 12, 13, so we were pretty young Again, 12, 13, so we were pretty young Again, 12, 13, so we were pretty young kids. My grandmother found out, and she kids. My grandmother found out, and she kids. My grandmother found out, and she told me that if I kept on hanging out told me that if I kept on hanging out told me that if I kept on hanging out with this kid, she was going to run him with this kid, she was going to run him with this kid, she was going to run him over with her car, and then I was like over with her car, and then I was like over with her car, and then I was like kind of caught off guard by that, and kind of caught off guard by that, and kind of caught off guard by that, and then she said, "JD, I promise you, and then she said, "JD, I promise you, and then she said, "JD, I promise you, and no one will ever find out about it." And no one will ever find out about it." And no one will ever find out about it." And I was like, "Whoa." I was like, "Whoa." I was like, "Whoa." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, like for the sake of this kid, I >> So, like for the sake of this kid, I >> So, like for the sake of this kid, I pretty much stopped hanging out with pretty much stopped hanging out with pretty much stopped hanging out with him, but that toughness, I think, was him, but that toughness, I think, was him, but that toughness, I think, was like a necessary part. It was like like a necessary part. It was like like a necessary part. It was like through sheer willpower that she kept me through sheer willpower that she kept me through sheer willpower that she kept me on the straight and narrow. And uh on the straight and narrow. And uh on the straight and narrow. And uh again, I don't know where I'd be without again, I don't know where I'd be without again, I don't know where I'd be without her.

her. her. >> And over the next sort of couple of >> And over the next sort of couple of >> And over the next sort of couple of decades, your mother your mother's decades, your mother your mother's decades, your mother your mother's addiction um seems to get worse and addiction um seems to get worse and addiction um seems to get worse and worse. worse. worse. >> It does. >> It does. >> It does. >> From prescription drugs to heroin and >> From prescription drugs to heroin and >> From prescription drugs to heroin and everything in between, and it really everything in between, and it really everything in between, and it really sort of ravages sort of ravages sort of ravages not just her life, but the family's not just her life, but the family's not just her life, but the family's life. life. life. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Nearly making your your grandparents >> Nearly making your your grandparents >> Nearly making your your grandparents bankrupt. bankrupt. bankrupt. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And Mom, by the way, has been clean and And Mom, by the way, has been clean and And Mom, by the way, has been clean and sober for 11 years, which is an amazing sober for 11 years, which is an amazing sober for 11 years, which is an amazing thing, but you know, when Papaw died, thing, but you know, when Papaw died, thing, but you know, when Papaw died, he was what my grandmother was for me. I he was what my grandmother was for me. I he was what my grandmother was for me. I sort of realized that that's what Papaw sort of realized that that's what Papaw sort of realized that that's what Papaw was for Mom. He was her safe place. He was for Mom. He was her safe place. He was for Mom. He was her safe place. He was her anchor. was her anchor. was her anchor. And I think she already had some And I think she already had some And I think she already had some addiction problems, but it just really addiction problems, but it just really addiction problems, but it just really accelerated from there, and things kind accelerated from there, and things kind accelerated from there, and things kind of went off the rails. And you know, my of went off the rails. And you know, my of went off the rails. And you know, my my grandparents, before my grandfather my grandparents, before my grandfather my grandparents, before my grandfather died, were trying various ways to help died, were trying various ways to help died, were trying various ways to help her, and yeah, it got worse and worse, her, and yeah, it got worse and worse, her, and yeah, it got worse and worse, harder and harder drugs, had a few bad harder and harder drugs, had a few bad harder and harder drugs, had a few bad overdoses, and overdoses, and overdoses, and you know, by the grace of God, some you know, by the grace of God, some you know, by the grace of God, some miracle, you know, it's it's amazing how miracle, you know, it's it's amazing how miracle, you know, it's it's amazing how transformed she is. And it sort of transformed she is. And it sort of transformed she is. And it sort of drives home how for some people drives home how for some people drives home how for some people drugs are just drugs are just drugs are just they they take so much away from a human they they take so much away from a human they they take so much away from a human being. And she was certainly that that being. And she was certainly that that being. And she was certainly that that way in the same way that they took so way in the same way that they took so way in the same way that they took so much away from her, sobriety has given much away from her, sobriety has given much away from her, sobriety has given her a whole lot back.

her a whole lot back. her a whole lot back. >> If I asked your wife >> If I asked your wife >> If I asked your wife >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> how this season of your life, the most >> how this season of your life, the most >> how this season of your life, the most formative season of your life, formative season of your life, formative season of your life, >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> has changed you, >> has changed you, >> has changed you, what are all the things she would say? what are all the things she would say? what are all the things she would say? It's funny because I remember It's funny because I remember It's funny because I remember interviewing, I think it was Michael interviewing, I think it was Michael interviewing, I think it was Michael Jordan's coach, Jordan's coach, Jordan's coach, >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> said to me that >> said to me that >> said to me that people's dark sides and their light people's dark sides and their light people's dark sides and their light sides are like fundamentally sides are like fundamentally sides are like fundamentally interconnected. interconnected. interconnected. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And I can relate. >> And I can relate. >> And I can relate. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> things people might clap for or applaud >> things people might clap for or applaud >> things people might clap for or applaud about you are also fundamentally linked about you are also fundamentally linked about you are also fundamentally linked to the things that to the things that to the things that you struggle with or that make you you struggle with or that make you you struggle with or that make you sometimes not the most sometimes not the most sometimes not the most >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> normal person. >> normal person. >> normal person. >> Yes. That makes total sense to me. I >> Yes. That makes total sense to me. I >> Yes. That makes total sense to me. I think on the dark side, what she would think on the dark side, what she would think on the dark side, what she would say is I am an extraordinary say is I am an extraordinary say is I am an extraordinary mistrust. mistrust. mistrust. I think of of people that I don't know I think of of people that I don't know I think of of people that I don't know particularly well. I sort of assume the particularly well. I sort of assume the particularly well. I sort of assume the worst sometimes about circumstances and worst sometimes about circumstances and worst sometimes about circumstances and and and things outside of my control. and and things outside of my control. and and things outside of my control. But I maybe assume the best about the But I maybe assume the best about the But I maybe assume the best about the people themselves, right? So there's an people themselves, right? So there's an people themselves, right? So there's an inherent like sense that the world is inherent like sense that the world is inherent like sense that the world is going to fall apart. I think that's a going to fall apart. I think that's a going to fall apart. I think that's a very true thing. Even in our like our very true thing. Even in our like our very true thing. Even in our like our marriage is it would be hard to imagine, marriage is it would be hard to imagine, marriage is it would be hard to imagine, I'm saying, you know, all marriages are I'm saying, you know, all marriages are I'm saying, you know, all marriages are work, but it would be hard to imagine work, but it would be hard to imagine work, but it would be hard to imagine like a marriage that was more successful like a marriage that was more successful like a marriage that was more successful and more happy than ours. Our kids are and more happy than ours. Our kids are and more happy than ours. Our kids are doing great. They're healthy. Like my doing great. They're healthy. Like my doing great. They're healthy. Like my wife and I love each other very much, wife and I love each other very much, wife and I love each other very much, but we're also just like she really is but we're also just like she really is but we're also just like she really is my best friend. She's the person I talk my best friend. She's the person I talk my best friend. She's the person I talk to about everything. She's my closest to about everything. She's my closest to about everything. She's my closest confidant. And yet confidant. And yet confidant. And yet there are all kinds of times during our there are all kinds of times during our there are all kinds of times during our 12-year marriage where I've just had 12-year marriage where I've just had 12-year marriage where I've just had this thought like there's no way this is this thought like there's no way this is this thought like there's no way this is going to last. Either because she's going to last. Either because she's going to last. Either because she's taken the kids to the grocery store and

taken the kids to the grocery store and taken the kids to the grocery store and I start thinking to myself, "Oh my god, I start thinking to myself, "Oh my god, I start thinking to myself, "Oh my god, a drunk driver is going to have a a drunk driver is going to have a a drunk driver is going to have a head-on collision." I I I just there's a head-on collision." I I I just there's a head-on collision." I I I just there's a sense of like instability that is very sense of like instability that is very sense of like instability that is very much built in. That's that's kind of the much built in. That's that's kind of the much built in. That's that's kind of the dark. I think the light is because I've dark. I think the light is because I've dark. I think the light is because I've seen a lot of people at their very best seen a lot of people at their very best seen a lot of people at their very best and their very worst. and their very worst. and their very worst. I sort of assume the best about the I sort of assume the best about the I sort of assume the best about the human beings themselves. So, even though human beings themselves. So, even though human beings themselves. So, even though the circumstances are crazy and even the circumstances are crazy and even the circumstances are crazy and even though hits the fan sometimes though hits the fan sometimes though hits the fan sometimes completely outside of your control, completely outside of your control, completely outside of your control, I just I just I just I think what she would say is that I I think what she would say is that I I think what she would say is that I probably have a higher empathy quotient probably have a higher empathy quotient probably have a higher empathy quotient than any person that she knows. And I than any person that she knows. And I than any person that she knows. And I really try to understand what makes really try to understand what makes really try to understand what makes people tick. And so, there's there's the people tick. And so, there's there's the people tick. And so, there's there's the light and the dark together, but there's light and the dark together, but there's light and the dark together, but there's there's a lot beyond that. Look, I mean, there's a lot beyond that. Look, I mean, there's a lot beyond that. Look, I mean, I I was a lot of work. I I was a lot of work. I I was a lot of work. When I look back at our early When I look back at our early When I look back at our early relationship and we'd have an argument, relationship and we'd have an argument, relationship and we'd have an argument, like before we were even married, and like before we were even married, and like before we were even married, and and I'd be like, "Okay, well, fine. and I'd be like, "Okay, well, fine. and I'd be like, "Okay, well, fine. Let's just break up." Let's just break up." Let's just break up." And her response is like, "Well, that's And her response is like, "Well, that's And her response is like, "Well, that's crazy. Why would we break up? Let's just crazy. Why would we break up? Let's just crazy. Why would we break up? Let's just like have a rational conversation." like have a rational conversation." like have a rational conversation." Like, "I don't Honey, I don't do Like, "I don't Honey, I don't do Like, "I don't Honey, I don't do rational conversations in this context.

rational conversations in this context. rational conversations in this context. That is not something we do." But again, That is not something we do." But again, That is not something we do." But again, so long as you're I think self-aware so long as you're I think self-aware so long as you're I think self-aware about that, it's a problem that you can about that, it's a problem that you can about that, it's a problem that you can solve. And certainly, I I mean, I think solve. And certainly, I I mean, I think solve. And certainly, I I mean, I think she would say now compared to 14 years she would say now compared to 14 years she would say now compared to 14 years ago when we first started dating, it's ago when we first started dating, it's ago when we first started dating, it's just night and day. But very early on, just night and day. But very early on, just night and day. But very early on, it was a chaotic relationship itself. it was a chaotic relationship itself. it was a chaotic relationship itself. >> Clearly an avoidant attachment style, >> Clearly an avoidant attachment style, >> Clearly an avoidant attachment style, which obviously makes which obviously makes which obviously makes >> 100% 100% Yeah. >> 100% 100% Yeah. >> 100% 100% Yeah. >> I can relate. And >> I can relate. And >> I can relate. And >> Yeah. I didn't have the vocabulary to >> Yeah. I didn't have the vocabulary to >> Yeah. I didn't have the vocabulary to describe that, but that's exactly what describe that, but that's exactly what describe that, but that's exactly what that was. that was. that was. >> Uh Did you go Did you have to go to like >> Uh Did you go Did you have to go to like >> Uh Did you go Did you have to go to like couples therapy? Because it it seems couples therapy? Because it it seems couples therapy? Because it it seems almost inconceivable that you could go almost inconceivable that you could go almost inconceivable that you could go through that early context be so through that early context be so through that early context be so avoidant, be so sort of on a on edge avoidant, be so sort of on a on edge avoidant, be so sort of on a on edge with commitment, and see everything as with commitment, and see everything as with commitment, and see everything as kind of being ephemeral, kind of being ephemeral, kind of being ephemeral, yet still have a healthy relationship yet still have a healthy relationship yet still have a healthy relationship like the one you you have with her. like the one you you have with her. like the one you you have with her. >> No, never went to couples therapy. I >> No, never went to couples therapy. I >> No, never went to couples therapy. I actually went to like therapy a couple actually went to like therapy a couple actually went to like therapy a couple of times, and I just found it way too of times, and I just found it way too of times, and I just found it way too uncomfortable to talk to a stranger. And uncomfortable to talk to a stranger. And uncomfortable to talk to a stranger. And so, so, so, >> Is this uncomfortable? >> Is this uncomfortable? >> Is this uncomfortable? >> Well, no. >> Well, no. >> Well, no. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> No, I mean, this is I guess this is kind >> No, I mean, this is I guess this is kind >> No, I mean, this is I guess this is kind of a you know, a weird kind of therapy, of a you know, a weird kind of therapy, of a you know, a weird kind of therapy, but no, it it's but no, it it's but no, it it's it's the idea The other thing I really it's the idea The other thing I really it's the idea The other thing I really didn't like about it and again I I don't didn't like about it and again I I don't didn't like about it and again I I don't mean this to criticize therapy. I'm sure mean this to criticize therapy. I'm sure mean this to criticize therapy. I'm sure it helps a lot of people. So so please it helps a lot of people. So so please it helps a lot of people. So so please don't take this the wrong way.

don't take this the wrong way. don't take this the wrong way. But there was something about it that But there was something about it that But there was something about it that felt almost too self-referential felt almost too self-referential felt almost too self-referential and too like it almost encouraged at and too like it almost encouraged at and too like it almost encouraged at least me least me least me to blame others or to blame my past or to blame others or to blame my past or to blame others or to blame my past or to blame my mom or to blame it just I to blame my mom or to blame it just I to blame my mom or to blame it just I really didn't like this feeling that really didn't like this feeling that really didn't like this feeling that I've sort of giving up agency over my I've sort of giving up agency over my I've sort of giving up agency over my own life. own life. own life. And so we've just gotten better at how And so we've just gotten better at how And so we've just gotten better at how we relate to each other. That's we relate to each other. That's we relate to each other. That's primarily me. I mean she grew up in a primarily me. I mean she grew up in a primarily me. I mean she grew up in a very stable situation. Her So her very stable situation. Her So her very stable situation. Her So her parents are South Asian immigrants to parents are South Asian immigrants to parents are South Asian immigrants to the United States of America, but she the United States of America, but she the United States of America, but she was born and raised in San Diego, was born and raised in San Diego, was born and raised in San Diego, California. You know, just very normal California. You know, just very normal California. You know, just very normal middle-class Southern California life. middle-class Southern California life. middle-class Southern California life. And I think because of that she just And I think because of that she just And I think because of that she just had much healthier let's say she had had much healthier let's say she had had much healthier let's say she had much healthier relationship practices much healthier relationship practices much healthier relationship practices than I did. than I did. than I did. >> That point about understanding the >> That point about understanding the >> That point about understanding the person on the other end and having person on the other end and having person on the other end and having empathy for the human being empathy for the human being empathy for the human being politics. politics. politics. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Appears to be almost exactly cuz I >> Appears to be almost exactly cuz I >> Appears to be almost exactly cuz I watched the I watched the election watched the I watched the election watched the I watched the election campaigns. I watched how like yourself campaigns. I watched how like yourself campaigns. I watched how like yourself and the president [clears throat] went and the president [clears throat] went and the president [clears throat] went against um people like Kamala Harris.

against um people like Kamala Harris. against um people like Kamala Harris. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> So you must with that logic think that >> So you must with that logic think that >> So you must with that logic think that Kamala Harris is actually like a really Kamala Harris is actually like a really Kamala Harris is actually like a really good person. Like you must understand good person. Like you must understand good person. Like you must understand Kamala. Kamala. Kamala. >> I I don't I I don't have I wouldn't say >> I I don't I I don't have I wouldn't say >> I I don't I I don't have I wouldn't say that I understand her. that I understand her. that I understand her. I would say that I just don't have this I would say that I just don't have this I would say that I just don't have this animosity towards people on the other animosity towards people on the other animosity towards people on the other side. side. side. >> But you Is that not like sort of >> But you Is that not like sort of >> But you Is that not like sort of implicit in the job itself that you have implicit in the job itself that you have implicit in the job itself that you have to point out their faults and how good to point out their faults and how good to point out their faults and how good they they they >> Yeah, no, I I absolutely. But I think >> Yeah, no, I I absolutely. But I think >> Yeah, no, I I absolutely. But I think you can be sort of rational about it. you can be sort of rational about it. you can be sort of rational about it. You can be cerebral about it. Certainly You can be cerebral about it. Certainly You can be cerebral about it. Certainly there are things the other side does there are things the other side does there are things the other side does that annoy me, but you know, like my my that annoy me, but you know, like my my that annoy me, but you know, like my my fundamental bias is that just most fundamental bias is that just most fundamental bias is that just most people are good people and to the extent people are good people and to the extent people are good people and to the extent that they do something you disagree that they do something you disagree that they do something you disagree with, it's either because they screwed with, it's either because they screwed with, it's either because they screwed up on something or because they made a up on something or because they made a up on something or because they made a mistake or I just I've always been like mistake or I just I've always been like mistake or I just I've always been like this. I've always been more charitable this. I've always been more charitable this. I've always been more charitable about other human beings and I I don't about other human beings and I I don't about other human beings and I I don't know. Again, maybe I maybe I do that too know. Again, maybe I maybe I do that too know. Again, maybe I maybe I do that too much. Maybe I'm too charitable, but I'd much. Maybe I'm too charitable, but I'd much. Maybe I'm too charitable, but I'd rather be too charitable than too rather be too charitable than too rather be too charitable than too cynical about human beings cuz that I cynical about human beings cuz that I cynical about human beings cuz that I mean, you talk about a screwed up mean, you talk about a screwed up mean, you talk about a screwed up perspective to take into politics. If perspective to take into politics. If perspective to take into politics. If you're always cynical about other you're always cynical about other you're always cynical about other people's motivations, man, you're going people's motivations, man, you're going people's motivations, man, you're going to be in a very very bad spot.

to be in a very very bad spot. to be in a very very bad spot. >> I actually think the same about >> I actually think the same about >> I actually think the same about interviewing, remarkably. [laughter] interviewing, remarkably. [laughter] interviewing, remarkably. [laughter] Because I know cuz I Because I know cuz I Because I know cuz I >> No, absolutely. >> No, absolutely. >> No, absolutely. >> I miss I meet so many people from so >> I miss I meet so many people from so >> I miss I meet so many people from so many different many different many different and one of the things that I've come to and one of the things that I've come to and one of the things that I've come to learn is just try and meet everybody as learn is just try and meet everybody as learn is just try and meet everybody as I experience them versus like, you know, I experience them versus like, you know, I experience them versus like, you know, especially when I'm interviewing especially when I'm interviewing especially when I'm interviewing politicians, it's I just want to meet politicians, it's I just want to meet politicians, it's I just want to meet them as I experience them versus them as I experience them versus them as I experience them versus thinking about how they've been framed thinking about how they've been framed thinking about how they've been framed to whatever. to whatever. to whatever. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's actually made me much more >> And it's actually made me much more >> And it's actually made me much more empathetic because again, obviously, we empathetic because again, obviously, we empathetic because again, obviously, we all have preconceptions. And then you all have preconceptions. And then you all have preconceptions. And then you meet someone and you go, oh, they are a meet someone and you go, oh, they are a meet someone and you go, oh, they are a family person, they care about X, Y, and family person, they care about X, Y, and family person, they care about X, Y, and Z. They care about the same things, they Z. They care about the same things, they Z. They care about the same things, they just disagree about pathways. just disagree about pathways. just disagree about pathways. >> Yeah, yeah. Of course. >> Yeah, yeah. Of course. >> Yeah, yeah. Of course. >> But politics seems to be like >> But politics seems to be like >> But politics seems to be like the sort of game of politics to me seems the sort of game of politics to me seems the sort of game of politics to me seems to be like paint the other side to be to be like paint the other side to be to be like paint the other side to be malicious. malicious. malicious. >> Well, I I think the game of politics, I >> Well, I I think the game of politics, I >> Well, I I think the game of politics, I mean, fundamentally, you're making a mean, fundamentally, you're making a mean, fundamentally, you're making a pitch to people, right? It's not it's pitch to people, right? It's not it's pitch to people, right? It's not it's not about Kamala Harris or Donald Trump not about Kamala Harris or Donald Trump not about Kamala Harris or Donald Trump or J.D. Vance or Tim Waltz, it's about or J.D. Vance or Tim Waltz, it's about or J.D. Vance or Tim Waltz, it's about the American people, right? And the American people, right? And the American people, right? And fundamentally, to make that sales pitch, fundamentally, to make that sales pitch, fundamentally, to make that sales pitch, you have to say, what's better about you have to say, what's better about you have to say, what's better about this product? What's worse about the this product? What's worse about the this product? What's worse about the other product? So, that that is just other product? So, that that is just other product? So, that that is just inherent. But again, I I think you can inherent. But again, I I think you can inherent. But again, I I think you can do that You know, what I always try to do that You know, what I always try to do that You know, what I always try to do is I try to talk about here are the do is I try to talk about here are the do is I try to talk about here are the policies that are really bad. Here are policies that are really bad. Here are policies that are really bad. Here are the reasons why I think this is screwed the reasons why I think this is screwed the reasons why I think this is screwed up. Here are the reasons why I think up. Here are the reasons why I think up. Here are the reasons why I think that she made mistakes. But I you know, that she made mistakes. But I you know, that she made mistakes. But I you know, it is weird. It is fundamentally you are it is weird. It is fundamentally you are it is weird. It is fundamentally you are in a position where you're trying to in a position where you're trying to in a position where you're trying to point out the faults in another people, point out the faults in another people, point out the faults in another people, even if it's just their conduct as even if it's just their conduct as even if it's just their conduct as opposed to their character. But even opposed to their character. But even opposed to their character. But even with that, I again, I I I do think that with that, I again, I I I do think that with that, I again, I I I do think that you see people in politics who you see people in politics who you see people in politics who fundamentally just really hate the fundamentally just really hate the fundamentally just really hate the people on the other side.

people on the other side. people on the other side. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's that's just not me. It's never >> That's that's just not me. It's never >> That's that's just not me. It's never going to be me. Even when I'm being very going to be me. Even when I'm being very going to be me. Even when I'm being very pugilistic, like even when you you pugilistic, like even when you you pugilistic, like even when you you really have to drive home a point. Like really have to drive home a point. Like really have to drive home a point. Like I, you know, not to get too much into I, you know, not to get too much into I, you know, not to get too much into the weeds of of partisan politics, but the weeds of of partisan politics, but the weeds of of partisan politics, but like something I think the Biden like something I think the Biden like something I think the Biden administration just like really screwed administration just like really screwed administration just like really screwed up in a profoundly dangerous way was the up in a profoundly dangerous way was the up in a profoundly dangerous way was the was our immigration policy, right? Now, was our immigration policy, right? Now, was our immigration policy, right? Now, there all kinds of reasons why that there all kinds of reasons why that there all kinds of reasons why that might have happened, but fundamentally might have happened, but fundamentally might have happened, but fundamentally that was a very very very bad screw up. that was a very very very bad screw up. that was a very very very bad screw up. But I don't hate Kamala Harris because I But I don't hate Kamala Harris because I But I don't hate Kamala Harris because I think she had a bad immigration policy. think she had a bad immigration policy. think she had a bad immigration policy. I just think it's important to point out I just think it's important to point out I just think it's important to point out the flaws. the flaws. the flaws. >> On on the immigration policy, I mean >> On on the immigration policy, I mean >> On on the immigration policy, I mean sorry about to give you a chance to sorry about to give you a chance to sorry about to give you a chance to talk, on this point of immigration talk, on this point of immigration talk, on this point of immigration [clears throat] this is another area [clears throat] this is another area [clears throat] this is another area where you get such division. Sure. And where you get such division. Sure. And where you get such division. Sure. And you get, you know, I remember watching you get, you know, I remember watching you get, you know, I remember watching the There's a couple of things I the There's a couple of things I the There's a couple of things I remember watching when I was I think I'm remember watching when I was I think I'm remember watching when I was I think I'm probably back in Plymouth in the probably back in Plymouth in the probably back in Plymouth in the countryside. One of them was like Trump countryside. One of them was like Trump countryside. One of them was like Trump the president demonizing Mexican people the president demonizing Mexican people the president demonizing Mexican people and brown people. I remember this and brown people. I remember this and brown people. I remember this particular quote which I've always particular quote which I've always particular quote which I've always struggled with a little bit where he struggled with a little bit where he struggled with a little bit where he said about the black community, what said about the black community, what said about the black community, what have you got to lose?

have you got to lose? have you got to lose? And I remember thinking, I'm a black And I remember thinking, I'm a black And I remember thinking, I'm a black man. man. man. I feel like I've got things to lose. I feel like I've got things to lose. I feel like I've got things to lose. Um that kind of narrative about those Um that kind of narrative about those Um that kind of narrative about those individuals that broad strokes individuals that broad strokes individuals that broad strokes sort of demonization of them would make sort of demonization of them would make sort of demonization of them would make people's lives harder and feels people's lives harder and feels people's lives harder and feels unnecessary. Even if you agree that unnecessary. Even if you agree that unnecessary. Even if you agree that immigration is a problem. immigration is a problem. immigration is a problem. The the sort of like skin color or The the sort of like skin color or The the sort of like skin color or religion or like Mexicans rapists and religion or like Mexicans rapists and religion or like Mexicans rapists and murderers is is murderers is is murderers is is might might galvanize in the near term, might might galvanize in the near term, might might galvanize in the near term, but in the long term is probably going but in the long term is probably going but in the long term is probably going to sow division. And that's probably net to sow division. And that's probably net to sow division. And that's probably net negative for society. negative for society. negative for society. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> what I one thing I'd say just about >> what I one thing I'd say just about >> what I one thing I'd say just about anything that I've ever heard the anything that I've ever heard the anything that I've ever heard the president say that then that's then president say that then that's then president say that then that's then refracted through the lens of social refracted through the lens of social refracted through the lens of social media or, you know, non-social media media or, you know, non-social media media or, you know, non-social media is very often what he is accused of is very often what he is accused of is very often what he is accused of saying he didn't say it or he said it in saying he didn't say it or he said it in saying he didn't say it or he said it in a totally different way or there was a totally different way or there was a totally different way or there was much greater context. So like I like I much greater context. So like I like I much greater context. So like I like I remember for example, like I remember remember for example, like I remember remember for example, like I remember back in 2016 or 2015 whenever he said back in 2016 or 2015 whenever he said back in 2016 or 2015 whenever he said this sort of being like offended at the this sort of being like offended at the this sort of being like offended at the rapists and murderers line. rapists and murderers line. rapists and murderers line. And then I went and looked at what he And then I went and looked at what he And then I went and looked at what he said and what he said, which is actually said and what he said, which is actually said and what he said, which is actually true, is that some of these countries true, is that some of these countries true, is that some of these countries are actually encouraging prisoners to are actually encouraging prisoners to are actually encouraging prisoners to come into the United States of America.

come into the United States of America. come into the United States of America. Does that mean that every person comes Does that mean that every person comes Does that mean that every person comes to America is a rapist or a murderer or to America is a rapist or a murderer or to America is a rapist or a murderer or is a prisoner? No, it doesn't. But he is a prisoner? No, it doesn't. But he is a prisoner? No, it doesn't. But he didn't say that. Right? So So again, didn't say that. Right? So So again, didn't say that. Right? So So again, this goes back to the point about being this goes back to the point about being this goes back to the point about being charitable is I I do try to understand charitable is I I do try to understand charitable is I I do try to understand fundamentally like why did a person say fundamentally like why did a person say fundamentally like why did a person say that? What are they actually thinking? that? What are they actually thinking? that? What are they actually thinking? What are they trying to get across? And What are they trying to get across? And What are they trying to get across? And again, if you disagree, well, that's again, if you disagree, well, that's again, if you disagree, well, that's fine. fine. fine. >> You wouldn't have said that though. >> You wouldn't have said that though. >> You wouldn't have said that though. >> But But I think Well, the president I >> But But I think Well, the president I >> But But I think Well, the president I certainly have way different styles. certainly have way different styles. certainly have way different styles. Absolutely we have different styles. But Absolutely we have different styles. But Absolutely we have different styles. But I mean, the the way that I talk about I mean, the the way that I talk about I mean, the the way that I talk about immigration, I'd say that's one of the immigration, I'd say that's one of the immigration, I'd say that's one of the issues where where we've always been issues where where we've always been issues where where we've always been like extremely closely aligned and that like extremely closely aligned and that like extremely closely aligned and that was obviously a major issue during the was obviously a major issue during the was obviously a major issue during the 2024 campaign. 2024 campaign. 2024 campaign. But the way that I think about But the way that I think about But the way that I think about immigration is is fundamentally like as immigration is is fundamentally like as immigration is is fundamentally like as a country, you are the people who live a country, you are the people who live a country, you are the people who live in your nation, okay? So America's 330 in your nation, okay? So America's 330 in your nation, okay? So America's 330 million souls, you know, million souls, you know, million souls, you know, I think fun Again, most of them what Who I think fun Again, most of them what Who I think fun Again, most of them what Who are they voting for me or not? They're are they voting for me or not? They're are they voting for me or not? They're really good people. And they want really really good people. And they want really really good people. And they want really good things for their families, they good things for their families, they good things for their families, they want really good things for themselves. want really good things for themselves. want really good things for themselves. And yeah, there are like some bad apples And yeah, there are like some bad apples And yeah, there are like some bad apples in every crew. 330 million people, there in every crew. 330 million people, there in every crew. 330 million people, there are definitely some bad people, but most are definitely some bad people, but most are definitely some bad people, but most people are fundamentally good and people are fundamentally good and people are fundamentally good and decent. However, you could let people decent. However, you could let people decent. However, you could let people into your country who could be fun, into your country who could be fun, into your country who could be fun, decent, normal human beings who just decent, normal human beings who just decent, normal human beings who just kind of mess with the the equation a kind of mess with the the equation a kind of mess with the the equation a little bit. It's like if I have a bunch little bit. It's like if I have a bunch little bit. It's like if I have a bunch of people over to my house for dinner of people over to my house for dinner of people over to my house for dinner and I have I invite 10 people to come and I have I invite 10 people to come and I have I invite 10 people to come over for dinner and one of them brings a over for dinner and one of them brings a over for dinner and one of them brings a stranger, that's probably going to be stranger, that's probably going to be stranger, that's probably going to be fun, right? But if like every single one fun, right? But if like every single one fun, right? But if like every single one of them bring three strangers, it's of them bring three strangers, it's of them bring three strangers, it's going to totally change the character of going to totally change the character of going to totally change the character of the conversation that you're going to the conversation that you're going to the conversation that you're going to have, of the room that you're going to

have, of the room that you're going to have, of the room that you're going to have. A country's like that just on a have. A country's like that just on a have. A country's like that just on a much more massive scale. So I may be much more massive scale. So I may be much more massive scale. So I may be come at it or I describe it a different come at it or I describe it a different come at it or I describe it a different way, but fundamentally I think that the way, but fundamentally I think that the way, but fundamentally I think that the president was very right about president was very right about president was very right about immigration in a way that was prescient. immigration in a way that was prescient. immigration in a way that was prescient. And even if the blunt way that he And even if the blunt way that he And even if the blunt way that he described it offended some people, I described it offended some people, I described it offended some people, I think it was like a very important think it was like a very important think it was like a very important contribution to not just our country, contribution to not just our country, contribution to not just our country, but to the world. but to the world. but to the world. >> I think it would be hard to find an >> I think it would be hard to find an >> I think it would be hard to find an American who didn't think we needed um American who didn't think we needed um American who didn't think we needed um again, I'm not an American, so I'm I again, I'm not an American, so I'm I again, I'm not an American, so I'm I guess I'm talking about where I'm from, guess I'm talking about where I'm from, guess I'm talking about where I'm from, but we needed borders and a policy but we needed borders and a policy but we needed borders and a policy around borders. Sure. Just in the same around borders. Sure. Just in the same around borders. Sure. Just in the same way that we have it around our house and way that we have it around our house and way that we have it around our house and every festival we enjoy and whatever it every festival we enjoy and whatever it every festival we enjoy and whatever it whatever venue we go to. I think the whatever venue we go to. I think the whatever venue we go to. I think the thing I've always been concerned about thing I've always been concerned about thing I've always been concerned about when I see the sort of rising narrative when I see the sort of rising narrative when I see the sort of rising narrative across the world, not just in America, across the world, not just in America, across the world, not just in America, but now across the West. but now across the West. but now across the West. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um the UK as well is >> Um the UK as well is >> Um the UK as well is in trying to solve that problem, it in trying to solve that problem, it in trying to solve that problem, it seems that like division is the most seems that like division is the most seems that like division is the most compelling narrative for politicians and compelling narrative for politicians and compelling narrative for politicians and then the like downstream consequence of then the like downstream consequence of then the like downstream consequence of division you see playing out on the division you see playing out on the division you see playing out on the streets. You see like especially in the streets. You see like especially in the streets. You see like especially in the UK at the moment, you're really seeing UK at the moment, you're really seeing UK at the moment, you're really seeing um certain communities be quite um um certain communities be quite um um certain communities be quite um demonized and victimized because of this demonized and victimized because of this demonized and victimized because of this broad political narrative which which is broad political narrative which which is broad political narrative which which is being used to get people into power, but being used to get people into power, but being used to get people into power, but then the downstream consequences of like then the downstream consequences of like then the downstream consequences of like real people on the streets that are real people on the streets that are real people on the streets that are brown or black or Muslims is like brown or black or Muslims is like brown or black or Muslims is like I don't think the the people at the top I don't think the the people at the top I don't think the the people at the top consider that.

consider that. consider that. >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> Well, I mean I >> Well, I mean I >> Well, I mean I >> Is there another way of of making the >> Is there another way of of making the >> Is there another way of of making the point on immigration, legal immigration point on immigration, legal immigration point on immigration, legal immigration without without without demonizing people? demonizing people? demonizing people? >> Well, I I certainly when I when I talk >> Well, I I certainly when I when I talk >> Well, I I certainly when I when I talk about it to the extent that I demonize about it to the extent that I demonize about it to the extent that I demonize anybody on the immigration conversation, anybody on the immigration conversation, anybody on the immigration conversation, I demonize the leadership that is immune I demonize the leadership that is immune I demonize the leadership that is immune to thinking about the consequences of to thinking about the consequences of to thinking about the consequences of this. And so just this this point about this. And so just this this point about this. And so just this this point about division, division is a very interesting division, division is a very interesting division, division is a very interesting word to me because I think division is word to me because I think division is word to me because I think division is very bad. Like I like living in a in a very bad. Like I like living in a in a very bad. Like I like living in a in a community that's cohesive where people community that's cohesive where people community that's cohesive where people get along where we love everybody get along where we love everybody get along where we love everybody regardless of what they look like or regardless of what they look like or regardless of what they look like or what they what thoughts they might have what they what thoughts they might have what they what thoughts they might have in their head. But like let me give you in their head. But like let me give you in their head. But like let me give you like a slightly different perspective on like a slightly different perspective on like a slightly different perspective on the division thing. What if division is the division thing. What if division is the division thing. What if division is not the result of politicians demonizing not the result of politicians demonizing not the result of politicians demonizing certain groups, but what if division is certain groups, but what if division is certain groups, but what if division is the inevitable consequence of when the the inevitable consequence of when the the inevitable consequence of when the population changes too quickly too fast population changes too quickly too fast population changes too quickly too fast in a given society? And what you see as in a given society? And what you see as in a given society? And what you see as as you know, politicians exploiting as you know, politicians exploiting as you know, politicians exploiting division, I actually think that what division, I actually think that what division, I actually think that what they're trying to do is articulate a they're trying to do is articulate a they're trying to do is articulate a feeling that people have and sometimes feeling that people have and sometimes feeling that people have and sometimes people might express that feeling in people might express that feeling in people might express that feeling in ways that we don't like or maybe they're ways that we don't like or maybe they're ways that we don't like or maybe they're offensive but but fundamentally like offensive but but fundamentally like offensive but but fundamentally like like let's just say you're like let's just say you're like let's just say you're you know you're working class guy in you know you're working class guy in you know you're working class guy in Britain or you're working class guy in Britain or you're working class guy in Britain or you're working class guy in the United States of America the United States of America the United States of America and and and you know somebody moves in your you know somebody moves in your you know somebody moves in your neighborhood.

neighborhood. neighborhood. >> That's right. I did I did. >> That's right. I did I did. >> That's right. I did I did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So my my black >> So my my black >> So my my black my family is black. My mom's Nigerian my family is black. My mom's Nigerian my family is black. My mom's Nigerian and I came from Botswana and I moved and I came from Botswana and I moved and I came from Botswana and I moved into a white neighborhood. into a white neighborhood. into a white neighborhood. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. And how I mean how did people treat you? And how I mean how did people treat you? And how I mean how did people treat you? >> Uh we were called the N-words a couple >> Uh we were called the N-words a couple >> Uh we were called the N-words a couple of times and of times and of times and >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. That's terrible. I don't like that. That's terrible. I don't like that. That's terrible. I don't like that. But I imagine that a lot of people in But I imagine that a lot of people in But I imagine that a lot of people in your community were welcoming unless your community were welcoming unless your community were welcoming unless unless unless unless >> they were. For sure for sure. You know >> they were. For sure for sure. You know >> they were. For sure for sure. You know as a kid you only remember the ways you as a kid you only remember the ways you as a kid you only remember the ways you stand out. stand out. stand out. >> No no of course of course. Yeah yeah >> No no of course of course. Yeah yeah >> No no of course of course. Yeah yeah yeah. That can be like yeah and I and I yeah. That can be like yeah and I and I yeah. That can be like yeah and I and I understand that and I and I certainly understand that and I and I certainly understand that and I and I certainly think it's important to like try to think it's important to like try to think it's important to like try to fight back against that stuff. Like we fight back against that stuff. Like we fight back against that stuff. Like we don't want young kids who come into a don't want young kids who come into a don't want young kids who come into a community for that to be like their community for that to be like their community for that to be like their their memory but like I also like our their memory but like I also like our their memory but like I also like our next door neighbor was black family. And next door neighbor was black family. And next door neighbor was black family. And my my grandmother was not woke. She did my my grandmother was not woke. She did my my grandmother was not woke. She did not have progressive views about race or not have progressive views about race or not have progressive views about race or gender or pretty much anything else but gender or pretty much anything else but gender or pretty much anything else but like she really loved I'll never forget like she really loved I'll never forget like she really loved I'll never forget this the the the the black man who lived this the the the the black man who lived this the the the the black man who lived next door to us. She said he has a good next door to us. She said he has a good next door to us. She said he has a good heart and that was her highest heart and that was her highest heart and that was her highest compliment of anybody. compliment of anybody. compliment of anybody. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> He was a preacher. [clears throat] >> He was a preacher. [clears throat] >> He was a preacher. [clears throat] The family was like a very very good The family was like a very very good The family was like a very very good family stable family mom dad few kids family stable family mom dad few kids family stable family mom dad few kids and I was very close to to to the young and I was very close to to to the young and I was very close to to to the young son and I I just son and I I just son and I I just I did not experience that I did not experience that I did not experience that where people talk about division I just where people talk about division I just where people talk about division I just did not see that family as substantially did not see that family as substantially did not see that family as substantially different from us and I don't think that different from us and I don't think that different from us and I don't think that family I'm sure they experienced racism family I'm sure they experienced racism family I'm sure they experienced racism but I don't think that was like a a but I don't think that was like a a but I don't think that was like a a common fixture of their day living in common fixture of their day living in common fixture of their day living in that neighborhood. Now that neighborhood. Now that neighborhood. Now >> that's fair.

>> that's fair. >> that's fair. >> what where Maywood really did resist the >> what where Maywood really did resist the >> what where Maywood really did resist the changes is when we had a few people like changes is when we had a few people like changes is when we had a few people like the neighborhood went downhill very the neighborhood went downhill very the neighborhood went downhill very quickly and I talk about that a little quickly and I talk about that a little quickly and I talk about that a little bit in the book and you had a bunch of bit in the book and you had a bunch of bit in the book and you had a bunch of people move in with different habits and people move in with different habits and people move in with different habits and you had a woman who you know, she sit a you had a woman who you know, she sit a you had a woman who you know, she sit a bath but then she got drunk and passed bath but then she got drunk and passed bath but then she got drunk and passed out and so she ruined her entire house out and so she ruined her entire house out and so she ruined her entire house and you know, and you know, and you know, at some level at some level at some level was it wrong for my grandmother to feel was it wrong for my grandmother to feel was it wrong for my grandmother to feel offended that her neighborhood had offended that her neighborhood had offended that her neighborhood had changed so quickly, so fast that she changed so quickly, so fast that she changed so quickly, so fast that she never felt she didn't feel comfortable never felt she didn't feel comfortable never felt she didn't feel comfortable there anymore or the people who came in there anymore or the people who came in there anymore or the people who came in had different values or she couldn't had different values or she couldn't had different values or she couldn't hold a conversation with somebody in the hold a conversation with somebody in the hold a conversation with somebody in the same way and I I got attacked by this on same way and I I got attacked by this on same way and I I got attacked by this on this campaign in 2024 when I said, you this campaign in 2024 when I said, you this campaign in 2024 when I said, you know, it's actually okay if you're an know, it's actually okay if you're an know, it's actually okay if you're an American, an English native speaker it's American, an English native speaker it's American, an English native speaker it's actually okay for you to want the person actually okay for you to want the person actually okay for you to want the person who moves in next to you to speak who moves in next to you to speak who moves in next to you to speak English. Not because you're a racist or English. Not because you're a racist or English. Not because you're a racist or a xenophobe but because you want to be a xenophobe but because you want to be a xenophobe but because you want to be able to talk to the person you share a able to talk to the person you share a able to talk to the person you share a community with and so what what I often community with and so what what I often community with and so what what I often see is that division gets magnified when see is that division gets magnified when see is that division gets magnified when statesmen don't do the job of actually statesmen don't do the job of actually statesmen don't do the job of actually ensuring that integration is possible ensuring that integration is possible ensuring that integration is possible and for integration to be possible, it and for integration to be possible, it and for integration to be possible, it has to be I think slow moving, you have has to be I think slow moving, you have has to be I think slow moving, you have to be careful, right? 100 people moving to be careful, right? 100 people moving to be careful, right? 100 people moving into a community is different from 10 into a community is different from 10 into a community is different from 10 people moving into a community. You have people moving into a community. You have people moving into a community. You have to make sure that everybody has economic to make sure that everybody has economic to make sure that everybody has economic opportunities, right? It's one thing to opportunities, right? It's one thing to opportunities, right? It's one thing to welcome a newcomer when everybody has

welcome a newcomer when everybody has welcome a newcomer when everybody has access to a good job but you welcome a access to a good job but you welcome a access to a good job but you welcome a newcomer when a lot of people are newcomer when a lot of people are newcomer when a lot of people are feeling economically distressed, they're feeling economically distressed, they're feeling economically distressed, they're going to react to it totally going to react to it totally going to react to it totally differently. So again, this is maybe me differently. So again, this is maybe me differently. So again, this is maybe me being charitable to people you think I being charitable to people you think I being charitable to people you think I shouldn't be charitable to but shouldn't be charitable to but shouldn't be charitable to but fundamentally like my job as a an fundamentally like my job as a an fundamentally like my job as a an elected leader elected leader elected leader is to create the kind of environment is to create the kind of environment is to create the kind of environment where division happens less. where division happens less. where division happens less. It's not to pretend that division It's not to pretend that division It's not to pretend that division doesn't exist. People naturally, I think doesn't exist. People naturally, I think doesn't exist. People naturally, I think feel reactive when things change too feel reactive when things change too feel reactive when things change too quickly and that's okay. quickly and that's okay. quickly and that's okay. >> No, I I understand that the especially >> No, I I understand that the especially >> No, I I understand that the especially this sort of human instinct of this sort of human instinct of this sort of human instinct of of I guess of kind of like xenophobia in of I guess of kind of like xenophobia in of I guess of kind of like xenophobia in a way and I think a way and I think a way and I think we all we all would want our neighbor to we all we all would want our neighbor to we all we all would want our neighbor to to be able to connect with our neighbor. to be able to connect with our neighbor. to be able to connect with our neighbor. I think it's like the the point of I think it's like the the point of I think it's like the the point of nuance is nuance is nuance is when they can't speak my language, when they can't speak my language, when they can't speak my language, what do I then do about that? And I what do I then do about that? And I what do I then do about that? And I think, you know, maybe if my neighbor think, you know, maybe if my neighbor think, you know, maybe if my neighbor didn't speak my language, we might not didn't speak my language, we might not didn't speak my language, we might not get along cuz we won't be able to get along cuz we won't be able to get along cuz we won't be able to connect and talk. But but I wouldn't be connect and talk. But but I wouldn't be connect and talk. But but I wouldn't be angry at them. angry at them. angry at them. And I and my my concern is from a high And I and my my concern is from a high And I and my my concern is from a high level when the the sort of Western level when the the sort of Western level when the the sort of Western narrative now is that it's the brown narrative now is that it's the brown narrative now is that it's the brown people that are the reason that your people that are the reason that your people that are the reason that your life is hard is I if if I believed that, life is hard is I if if I believed that, life is hard is I if if I believed that, if I heard that from my political if I heard that from my political if I heard that from my political leaders, leaders, leaders, it's conceivable that I might be angry it's conceivable that I might be angry it's conceivable that I might be angry at my neighbor, even though they've done at my neighbor, even though they've done at my neighbor, even though they've done nothing. Just their presence alone might nothing. Just their presence alone might nothing. Just their presence alone might make me resent them a little bit. And make me resent them a little bit. And make me resent them a little bit. And then what happens when I resent them then what happens when I resent them then what happens when I resent them because I'm being told that they're the because I'm being told that they're the because I'm being told that they're the reason that I'm suffering. They're reason that I'm suffering. They're reason that I'm suffering. They're they're the reason I don't have a job.

they're the reason I don't have a job. they're the reason I don't have a job. And then we get into this these like And then we get into this these like And then we get into this these like cultural wars, cultural wars, cultural wars, which is a slippery slope. which is a slippery slope. which is a slippery slope. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've always wanted to hear you. >> I've always wanted to hear you. >> I've always wanted to hear you. >> But what I would say is is I'm not mad, >> But what I would say is is I'm not mad, >> But what I would say is is I'm not mad, and I said this on the campaign trail and I said this on the campaign trail and I said this on the campaign trail all the time. I'm not mad at the illegal all the time. I'm not mad at the illegal all the time. I'm not mad at the illegal alien who broke our laws and came into alien who broke our laws and came into alien who broke our laws and came into the country, probably some of them the country, probably some of them the country, probably some of them probably didn't even know they were probably didn't even know they were probably didn't even know they were breaking our laws, breaking our laws, breaking our laws, who came into our country and wanted who came into our country and wanted who came into our country and wanted better opportunity for their families. better opportunity for their families. better opportunity for their families. What I am mad is the political system. What I am mad is the political system. What I am mad is the political system. The The The I don't know, right? So it's hard to I don't know, right? So it's hard to I don't know, right? So it's hard to say. But I am mad at the political say. But I am mad at the political say. But I am mad at the political system that encourages people to break system that encourages people to break system that encourages people to break those rules and sows division and then those rules and sows division and then those rules and sows division and then gets mad at the native population for gets mad at the native population for gets mad at the native population for looking around and saying, "Wait a looking around and saying, "Wait a looking around and saying, "Wait a second. I didn't sign up for this. I second. I didn't sign up for this. I second. I didn't sign up for this. I didn't agree to this." So I just like didn't agree to this." So I just like didn't agree to this." So I just like you I don't know what you describe that. you I don't know what you describe that. you I don't know what you describe that. I would say there's an instinct in every I would say there's an instinct in every I would say there's an instinct in every human being to want to share community human being to want to share community human being to want to share community with people where you've got something with people where you've got something with people where you've got something in common with, okay? And and it's like in common with, okay? And and it's like in common with, okay? And and it's like everything, right? A little bit of spice everything, right? A little bit of spice everything, right? A little bit of spice is good. Too much spice changes the the is good. Too much spice changes the the is good. Too much spice changes the the dynamic a little bit. And I think most dynamic a little bit. And I think most dynamic a little bit. And I think most people people people they're okay with change, but change they're okay with change, but change they're okay with change, but change that happens too fast, too quickly, I that happens too fast, too quickly, I that happens too fast, too quickly, I think in an immigration context is very, think in an immigration context is very, think in an immigration context is very, very bad for a country. And I think you very bad for a country. And I think you very bad for a country. And I think you guys have had that, we've had that, a guys have had that, we've had that, a guys have had that, we've had that, a lot of European countries have had that.

lot of European countries have had that. lot of European countries have had that. I don't even feel particularly angry I don't even feel particularly angry I don't even feel particularly angry um at any country because it's a mistake um at any country because it's a mistake um at any country because it's a mistake that all of us made. But now that you that all of us made. But now that you that all of us made. But now that you see that that I mean you rightly call it see that that I mean you rightly call it see that that I mean you rightly call it division. I just think that we have to division. I just think that we have to division. I just think that we have to say, "Wait a second. Let's try to do say, "Wait a second. Let's try to do say, "Wait a second. Let's try to do things a slightly different way." things a slightly different way." things a slightly different way." >> I think algorithms also play a big role >> I think algorithms also play a big role >> I think algorithms also play a big role in that because of the the design of the in that because of the the design of the in that because of the the design of the >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> So, that's but that's really another >> So, that's but that's really another >> So, that's but that's really another conversation. Um I do think though, if I conversation. Um I do think though, if I conversation. Um I do think though, if I if my family were struggling or at at if my family were struggling or at at if my family were struggling or at at all in danger or at risk and there was a all in danger or at risk and there was a all in danger or at risk and there was a an area of land over there that offered an area of land over there that offered an area of land over there that offered them a better chance, I personally think them a better chance, I personally think them a better chance, I personally think for the sake of my family if my family for the sake of my family if my family for the sake of my family if my family were struggling, I would try and move my were struggling, I would try and move my were struggling, I would try and move my family into that area. And I I assume family into that area. And I I assume family into that area. And I I assume you would do the same. I assume you you would do the same. I assume you you would do the same. I assume you would if your family, I've got this would if your family, I've got this would if your family, I've got this wonderful photo of your kids and your wonderful photo of your kids and your wonderful photo of your kids and your wife, were if America went to wife, were if America went to wife, were if America went to catastrophe and Mexico was doing great, catastrophe and Mexico was doing great, catastrophe and Mexico was doing great, would you not try and get into Mexico would you not try and get into Mexico would you not try and get into Mexico even if it wasn't even if it wasn't even if it wasn't um you didn't have a visa? um you didn't have a visa? um you didn't have a visa? >> I know, I don't think I would. I mean I >> I know, I don't think I would. I mean I >> I know, I don't think I would. I mean I I I can understand why some people have I I can understand why some people have I I can understand why some people have to like move. You need to eat. You need to like move. You need to eat. You need to like move. You need to eat. You need to provide for your family, but you know to provide for your family, but you know to provide for your family, but you know what? I I think that this is another what? I I think that this is another what? I I think that this is another thing about about the immigration thing thing about about the immigration thing thing about about the immigration thing that is that is challenging is that is that is challenging is that is that is challenging is you know, you want people to feel a you know, you want people to feel a you know, you want people to feel a certain rootedness and a certain certain rootedness and a certain certain rootedness and a certain devotion to their country. You know, one devotion to their country. You know, one devotion to their country. You know, one of the things that's very unique about of the things that's very unique about of the things that's very unique about America compared to Europe is America compared to Europe is America compared to Europe is there's this poll question that went there's this poll question that went there's this poll question that went around when I was a teenager maybe I was around when I was a teenager maybe I was around when I was a teenager maybe I was or my early 20s and it asked, "What or my early 20s and it asked, "What or my early 20s and it asked, "What percentage of young people in that percentage of young people in that percentage of young people in that society would die for their country if society would die for their country if society would die for their country if they had to?" Like I'm not excited about they had to?" Like I'm not excited about they had to?" Like I'm not excited about the idea, but would actually do it. In the idea, but would actually do it. In the idea, but would actually do it. In the United States it was something like the United States it was something like the United States it was something like 70%. And in all the other European all 70%. And in all the other European all 70%. And in all the other European all the other Western countries, it was like

the other Western countries, it was like the other Western countries, it was like 20 to 35%. 20 to 35%. 20 to 35%. And so, And so, And so, you know, you talk about like okay, you know, you talk about like okay, you know, you talk about like okay, moving to Mexico because there's moving to Mexico because there's moving to Mexico because there's economic opportunity. In in any universe economic opportunity. In in any universe economic opportunity. In in any universe where Mexico's flourishing and America's where Mexico's flourishing and America's where Mexico's flourishing and America's struggling, struggling, struggling, I get what you're saying that you want I get what you're saying that you want I get what you're saying that you want people to move and migrate to the place people to move and migrate to the place people to move and migrate to the place where they can have a chance of feeding where they can have a chance of feeding where they can have a chance of feeding their family, but like I I love this their family, but like I I love this their family, but like I I love this place in a way that is totally place in a way that is totally place in a way that is totally independent of the economic independent of the economic independent of the economic opportunities it provides to my opportunities it provides to my opportunities it provides to my children. There's something much deeper children. There's something much deeper children. There's something much deeper and there's a connection to to to the and there's a connection to to to the and there's a connection to to to the places, to the memories, to the places, to the memories, to the places, to the memories, to the folkways. I I mean, I I drive through folkways. I I mean, I I drive through folkways. I I mean, I I drive through Eastern Kentucky, man, and those Eastern Kentucky, man, and those Eastern Kentucky, man, and those beautiful rolling hills, and even beautiful rolling hills, and even beautiful rolling hills, and even mountains, but they're all mountains mountains, but they're all mountains mountains, but they're all mountains that are alight with life because that are alight with life because that are alight with life because they're, you know, they're, you know, they're, you know, it's not the Rockies. You know, you go it's not the Rockies. You know, you go it's not the Rockies. You know, you go you go to you go to West Virginia. You you go to you go to West Virginia. You you go to you go to West Virginia. You should do this. It's the the most should do this. It's the the most should do this. It's the the most beautiful area, I think, in the world beautiful area, I think, in the world beautiful area, I think, in the world because you get the mountains, and you because you get the mountains, and you because you get the mountains, and you get the rivers, and you get that, but get the rivers, and you get that, but get the rivers, and you get that, but it's also so green and rich with life. I it's also so green and rich with life. I it's also so green and rich with life. I feel an attachment to it that is very, feel an attachment to it that is very, feel an attachment to it that is very, very unique. very unique. very unique. >> But even if if your family were at risk, >> But even if if your family were at risk, >> But even if if your family were at risk, you wouldn't move them into Mexico.

you wouldn't move them into Mexico. you wouldn't move them into Mexico. >> Well, I mean, look, my my the story of >> Well, I mean, look, my my the story of >> Well, I mean, look, my my the story of my family, my grandparents, is they came my family, my grandparents, is they came my family, my grandparents, is they came from Eastern Kentucky and moved to from Eastern Kentucky and moved to from Eastern Kentucky and moved to Southern Ohio, not exactly that far Southern Ohio, not exactly that far Southern Ohio, not exactly that far away. These are These are two very close away. These are These are two very close away. These are These are two very close areas, but they moved away even though areas, but they moved away even though areas, but they moved away even though they didn't want to because of economic they didn't want to because of economic they didn't want to because of economic opportunity to provide for their opportunity to provide for their opportunity to provide for their families. So, I I certainly empathize families. So, I I certainly empathize families. So, I I certainly empathize with that. I mean, yeah, if somebody with that. I mean, yeah, if somebody with that. I mean, yeah, if somebody showed up, I mean, like I'm the vice showed up, I mean, like I'm the vice showed up, I mean, like I'm the vice president, I have a Secret Service president, I have a Secret Service president, I have a Secret Service detail. It's hard to put myself in this detail. It's hard to put myself in this detail. It's hard to put myself in this perspective right now, but if like perspective right now, but if like perspective right now, but if like somebody showed up to my home in somebody showed up to my home in somebody showed up to my home in Cincinnati and pointed a gun at my head Cincinnati and pointed a gun at my head Cincinnati and pointed a gun at my head and said, "You have to leave or we're and said, "You have to leave or we're and said, "You have to leave or we're going to kill your children." I'd leave, going to kill your children." I'd leave, going to kill your children." I'd leave, right? But right? But right? But >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I think most migration decisions are >> I I think most migration decisions are >> I I think most migration decisions are not actually that not actually that not actually that >> extreme consequential extreme. >> extreme consequential extreme. >> extreme consequential extreme. >> Makes sense. >> Makes sense. >> Makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There should be a button just down below >> There should be a button just down below >> There should be a button just down below here, and if it says subscribe, you're here, and if it says subscribe, you're here, and if it says subscribe, you're already subscribed. If it says already subscribed. If it says already subscribed. If it says subscribe-a, that means you're not yet. subscribe-a, that means you're not yet. subscribe-a, that means you're not yet. And if you're not subscribed, please And if you're not subscribed, please And if you're not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that could you do us a favor and hit that could you do us a favor and hit that button. It helps to show more than you button. It helps to show more than you button. It helps to show more than you know, and according to the algorithm, know, and according to the algorithm, know, and according to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, you're someone that watches our show, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet. Hit that button. but you haven't yet. Hit that button. but you haven't yet. Hit that button. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. >> This young man here, you're ultimately >> This young man here, you're ultimately >> This young man here, you're ultimately going to the Marine Corps? going to the Marine Corps? going to the Marine Corps? >> I go to the Marine Corps. Yeah, so this >> I go to the Marine Corps. Yeah, so this >> I go to the Marine Corps. Yeah, so this is this is me in, I believe, right after is this is me in, I believe, right after is this is me in, I believe, right after boot camp. So, in 2003, maybe May Yeah, boot camp. So, in 2003, maybe May Yeah, boot camp. So, in 2003, maybe May Yeah, I think 2003. This is me. This photo is I think 2003. This is me. This photo is I think 2003. This is me. This photo is taken in boot camp, and this is I'm taken in boot camp, and this is I'm taken in boot camp, and this is I'm pretty sure this is taken in Iraq, pretty sure this is taken in Iraq, pretty sure this is taken in Iraq, actually. This is either in '05 or '06 actually. This is either in '05 or '06 actually. This is either in '05 or '06 at a point when, you know, the Iraq war at a point when, you know, the Iraq war at a point when, you know, the Iraq war was not going well, was not going well, was not going well, >> But why did you go to out of >> But why did you go to out of >> But why did you go to out of >> What was the decision?

>> What was the decision? >> What was the decision? >> You know, [sighs] >> You know, [sighs] >> You know, [sighs] there was this sense, and in hindsight I there was this sense, and in hindsight I there was this sense, and in hindsight I really resent this. I mean, I really resent this. I mean, I really resent this. I mean, I I'm genuinely still angry at George W. I'm genuinely still angry at George W. I'm genuinely still angry at George W. Bush over this. Bush over this. Bush over this. Even though again, I I try to I try to Even though again, I I try to I try to Even though again, I I try to I try to be charitable, and I have friends who be charitable, and I have friends who be charitable, and I have friends who worked for him, think he's a great guy, worked for him, think he's a great guy, worked for him, think he's a great guy, not saying he's not. not saying he's not. not saying he's not. But, when I was a senior in high school, But, when I was a senior in high school, But, when I was a senior in high school, I remember I remember I remember I'm at a restaurant. It's called Skyline I'm at a restaurant. It's called Skyline I'm at a restaurant. It's called Skyline Chili in Southwestern Ohio. Chili in Southwestern Ohio. Chili in Southwestern Ohio. And this guy comes out of Skyline Chili. And this guy comes out of Skyline Chili. And this guy comes out of Skyline Chili. He's got like a World War II red He's got like a World War II red He's got like a World War II red veteran's hat. We call them red hatters veteran's hat. We call them red hatters veteran's hat. We call them red hatters in the United States. So, he was a in the United States. So, he was a in the United States. So, he was a veteran of World War II. veteran of World War II. veteran of World War II. And I remember feeling like, cuz you And I remember feeling like, cuz you And I remember feeling like, cuz you know, even at stage, this is probably know, even at stage, this is probably know, even at stage, this is probably 2003, 2002 maybe, but I think to myself, 2003, 2002 maybe, but I think to myself, 2003, 2002 maybe, but I think to myself, this generation is dying away. Like I I this generation is dying away. Like I I this generation is dying away. Like I I had this feeling, right? Because most had this feeling, right? Because most had this feeling, right? Because most most veterans you met, they were most veterans you met, they were most veterans you met, they were veterans of Vietnam, maybe of the first veterans of Vietnam, maybe of the first veterans of Vietnam, maybe of the first Iraq War, but I just went up and I was Iraq War, but I just went up and I was Iraq War, but I just went up and I was like I shook his hand and I said, "Thank like I shook his hand and I said, "Thank like I shook his hand and I said, "Thank you, sir, for your service." you, sir, for your service." you, sir, for your service." And you know, he was like genuinely And you know, he was like genuinely And you know, he was like genuinely touched, but I remember thinking, "This touched, but I remember thinking, "This touched, but I remember thinking, "This guy answered the call. Now we have to guy answered the call. Now we have to guy answered the call. Now we have to answer the call." You know, September answer the call." You know, September answer the call." You know, September the 11th happened when I was a junior in the 11th happened when I was a junior in the 11th happened when I was a junior in high school, high school, high school, and there was this patriotic sense of and there was this patriotic sense of and there was this patriotic sense of this is our World War II, right? And this is our World War II, right? And this is our World War II, right? And even some of the historical analogies even some of the historical analogies even some of the historical analogies that got used were the exact same.

that got used were the exact same. that got used were the exact same. Saddam Hussein was Adolf Hitler. What if Saddam Hussein was Adolf Hitler. What if Saddam Hussein was Adolf Hitler. What if you had an opportunity to stand up and you had an opportunity to stand up and you had an opportunity to stand up and say no to Adolf Hitler when he annexed say no to Adolf Hitler when he annexed say no to Adolf Hitler when he annexed the Sudetenland, wouldn't you have taken the Sudetenland, wouldn't you have taken the Sudetenland, wouldn't you have taken that chance? that chance? that chance? And it it's like they they they were so And it it's like they they they were so And it it's like they they they were so good at tapping into that patriotic good at tapping into that patriotic good at tapping into that patriotic reservoir. And by the way, I think that reservoir. And by the way, I think that reservoir. And by the way, I think that reservoir is a very valuable thing. I reservoir is a very valuable thing. I reservoir is a very valuable thing. I think it's important for statesmen to think it's important for statesmen to think it's important for statesmen to cultivate it, but only to tap into it cultivate it, but only to tap into it cultivate it, but only to tap into it when it's really necessary, and when when it's really necessary, and when when it's really necessary, and when it's really justified. And what was so it's really justified. And what was so it's really justified. And what was so screwed up about Iraq is I mean, I screwed up about Iraq is I mean, I screwed up about Iraq is I mean, I remember like I went to the Marine Corps remember like I went to the Marine Corps remember like I went to the Marine Corps recruiter, and I wanted to be Marine recruiter, and I wanted to be Marine recruiter, and I wanted to be Marine because my older cousins were Marines, because my older cousins were Marines, because my older cousins were Marines, and people said the Marines were the and people said the Marines were the and people said the Marines were the toughest. Whether that's true or not, toughest. Whether that's true or not, toughest. Whether that's true or not, that was certainly the impression that that was certainly the impression that that was certainly the impression that Marines had of themselves. I signed on Marines had of themselves. I signed on Marines had of themselves. I signed on the dotted line. I went in what's called the dotted line. I went in what's called the dotted line. I went in what's called open contract. So sometimes you sign up open contract. So sometimes you sign up open contract. So sometimes you sign up and you have your job assigned like you and you have your job assigned like you and you have your job assigned like you already know what you're going to do. I already know what you're going to do. I already know what you're going to do. I went to I went open contract. I said, went to I went open contract. I said, went to I went open contract. I said, you can give me whatever job you want you can give me whatever job you want you can give me whatever job you want to. I just want to be a Marine. to. I just want to be a Marine. to. I just want to be a Marine. And And And I did that because I loved my country I did that because I loved my country I did that because I loved my country and I wanted to contribute in the same and I wanted to contribute in the same and I wanted to contribute in the same way that that guy who wore a red hat was way that that guy who wore a red hat was way that that guy who wore a red hat was still wearing his red hat, was still still wearing his red hat, was still still wearing his red hat, was still proud of it, knew that he contributed.

proud of it, knew that he contributed. proud of it, knew that he contributed. And you know, that led me of course to And you know, that led me of course to And you know, that led me of course to go to Iraq from '05 to '06 and made a go to Iraq from '05 to '06 and made a go to Iraq from '05 to '06 and made a lot of friends, gained a a ton of lot of friends, gained a a ton of lot of friends, gained a a ton of appreciation for the Marine Corps as an appreciation for the Marine Corps as an appreciation for the Marine Corps as an institution and the people, but you institution and the people, but you institution and the people, but you know, became a little jaded about our know, became a little jaded about our know, became a little jaded about our political leadership. political leadership. political leadership. >> Why are you Do you said you you kind of >> Why are you Do you said you you kind of >> Why are you Do you said you you kind of annoyed at Bush? annoyed at Bush? annoyed at Bush? >> Because >> Because >> Because that patriotic reservoir that exists in that patriotic reservoir that exists in that patriotic reservoir that exists in any country, I think it's maybe most any country, I think it's maybe most any country, I think it's maybe most powerful in the United States of America powerful in the United States of America powerful in the United States of America because again, we have this 70 70 plus because again, we have this 70 70 plus because again, we have this 70 70 plus percent of young people say they would percent of young people say they would percent of young people say they would die for their country. That's very die for their country. That's very die for their country. That's very unique among advanced economies. And I'm unique among advanced economies. And I'm unique among advanced economies. And I'm sure a lot of people in Europe look at sure a lot of people in Europe look at sure a lot of people in Europe look at that and say, oh, those jingoistic that and say, oh, those jingoistic that and say, oh, those jingoistic idiots, they're you know, they're idiots, they're you know, they're idiots, they're you know, they're they're wrong or there's something bad they're wrong or there's something bad they're wrong or there's something bad about that. But I actually think you about that. But I actually think you about that. But I actually think you have to have a real nation, you have to have to have a real nation, you have to have to have a real nation, you have to have the willingness that if God forbid have the willingness that if God forbid have the willingness that if God forbid something happens, you're willing to put something happens, you're willing to put something happens, you're willing to put on your uniform and go and do what needs on your uniform and go and do what needs on your uniform and go and do what needs to be done. to be done. to be done. But again, in order for that to work, But again, in order for that to work, But again, in order for that to work, in order for that feeling to be in order for that feeling to be in order for that feeling to be justified, leaders have to not take justified, leaders have to not take justified, leaders have to not take advantage of it. You can't say Saddam advantage of it. You can't say Saddam advantage of it. You can't say Saddam Hussein is Adolf Hitler. He wasn't.

Hussein is Adolf Hitler. He wasn't. Hussein is Adolf Hitler. He wasn't. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You you [clears throat] got to be >> You you [clears throat] got to be >> You you [clears throat] got to be careful with it. And I don't think that careful with it. And I don't think that careful with it. And I don't think that George W. Bush was careful with it. I I George W. Bush was careful with it. I I George W. Bush was careful with it. I I think that he called the nation to do think that he called the nation to do think that he called the nation to do something that ultimately wasn't something that ultimately wasn't something that ultimately wasn't actually in our best interest as a actually in our best interest as a actually in our best interest as a nation, but more fundamentally, he drew nation, but more fundamentally, he drew nation, but more fundamentally, he drew on that wellspring of patriotism to on that wellspring of patriotism to on that wellspring of patriotism to direct us to do something that we direct us to do something that we direct us to do something that we shouldn't have been doing in the first shouldn't have been doing in the first shouldn't have been doing in the first place. place. place. >> Because he had bad information or >> Because he had bad information or >> Because he had bad information or because of negligence or incompetence? because of negligence or incompetence? because of negligence or incompetence? >> I don't I mean, I you know, I know >> I don't I mean, I you know, I know >> I don't I mean, I you know, I know enough people who know him. I think he enough people who know him. I think he enough people who know him. I think he had bad information. had bad information. had bad information. But, you know, fundamentally, like But, you know, fundamentally, like But, you know, fundamentally, like post 9/11 was really important. We had post 9/11 was really important. We had post 9/11 was really important. We had to go and deal with the terrorist to go and deal with the terrorist to go and deal with the terrorist networks that had existed all across the networks that had existed all across the networks that had existed all across the world that had been allowed to fester world that had been allowed to fester world that had been allowed to fester over the previous generation of of over the previous generation of of over the previous generation of of American negligence. But, fundamentally, American negligence. But, fundamentally, American negligence. But, fundamentally, the war on terrorism was not an the war on terrorism was not an the war on terrorism was not an existential thing to the United States existential thing to the United States existential thing to the United States of America. In the same in the way that of America. In the same in the way that of America. In the same in the way that like World War was an existential thing like World War was an existential thing like World War was an existential thing for Britain, right? for Britain, right? for Britain, right? And I I think we just we have to be And I I think we just we have to be And I I think we just we have to be careful about how we describe what we're careful about how we describe what we're careful about how we describe what we're asking our young people to do because if asking our young people to do because if asking our young people to do because if you ask them to do something and they you ask them to do something and they you ask them to do something and they feel like you were being honest with feel like you were being honest with feel like you were being honest with them, them, them, I think that sort of pays dividends into I think that sort of pays dividends into I think that sort of pays dividends into that patriotic reservoir. If you ask that patriotic reservoir. If you ask that patriotic reservoir. If you ask somebody to do something and it turns somebody to do something and it turns somebody to do something and it turns out you were lying to them, whether it out you were lying to them, whether it out you were lying to them, whether it was intentional or not, I think you draw was intentional or not, I think you draw was intentional or not, I think you draw down that patriotic reservoir. I don't down that patriotic reservoir. I don't down that patriotic reservoir. I don't know what the By the way, know what the By the way, know what the By the way, I mentioned that that poll, and you I mentioned that that poll, and you I mentioned that that poll, and you know, I don't have the information I know, I don't have the information I know, I don't have the information I don't have the data in front of me, don't have the data in front of me, don't have the data in front of me, but whatever the number of Americans but whatever the number of Americans but whatever the number of Americans young Americans who say they would die young Americans who say they would die young Americans who say they would die for their country, I would bet my I'd

for their country, I would bet my I'd for their country, I would bet my I'd I'd bet a lot of money that that number I'd bet a lot of money that that number I'd bet a lot of money that that number in 2026 is much lower than it was in in 2026 is much lower than it was in in 2026 is much lower than it was in 2003. 2003. 2003. >> So, it's really like a sort of a >> So, it's really like a sort of a >> So, it's really like a sort of a contract with the nation of that's built contract with the nation of that's built contract with the nation of that's built on trust. on trust. on trust. >> contract built on trust. You violate >> contract built on trust. You violate >> contract built on trust. You violate that trust and has very, very bad that trust and has very, very bad that trust and has very, very bad consequences. consequences. consequences. >> If you're going to take tips from anyone >> If you're going to take tips from anyone >> If you're going to take tips from anyone on how to stay focused and high energy, on how to stay focused and high energy, on how to stay focused and high energy, let it be from the greatest let it be from the greatest let it be from the greatest pound-for-pound fighter of all time, the pound-for-pound fighter of all time, the pound-for-pound fighter of all time, the guy they call Johnny "Bones" Jones. Jon guy they call Johnny "Bones" Jones. Jon guy they call Johnny "Bones" Jones. Jon is a co-owner of our show's sponsor, is a co-owner of our show's sponsor, is a co-owner of our show's sponsor, Ketone-IQ, alongside myself. And when Ketone-IQ, alongside myself. And when Ketone-IQ, alongside myself. And when you hear why, it probably makes a lot of you hear why, it probably makes a lot of you hear why, it probably makes a lot of sense to you. When he's training or sense to you. When he's training or sense to you. When he's training or fighting, he needs high-quality, steady, fighting, he needs high-quality, steady, fighting, he needs high-quality, steady, laser-like focus without the crash, and laser-like focus without the crash, and laser-like focus without the crash, and ketones give him exactly that. And ketones give him exactly that. And ketones give him exactly that. And unlike caffeine, ketones don't stimulate unlike caffeine, ketones don't stimulate unlike caffeine, ketones don't stimulate your brain, they fuel it. So, your brain your brain, they fuel it. So, your brain your brain, they fuel it. So, your brain actually loves ketones because it runs actually loves ketones because it runs actually loves ketones because it runs on them much more efficiently than on them much more efficiently than on them much more efficiently than anything else. And right now, Ketone-IQ anything else. And right now, Ketone-IQ anything else. And right now, Ketone-IQ is giving away one-of-a-kind pair signed is giving away one-of-a-kind pair signed is giving away one-of-a-kind pair signed MMA gloves from Jon Jones himself and MMA gloves from Jon Jones himself and MMA gloves from Jon Jones himself and the upcoming gold medal wrestler he's the upcoming gold medal wrestler he's the upcoming gold medal wrestler he's coaching called Gable Steveson. They are coaching called Gable Steveson. They are coaching called Gable Steveson. They are very, very rare. And if you want your very, very rare. And if you want your very, very rare. And if you want your shot at winning them, go to shot at winning them, go to shot at winning them, go to ketone.com/steven ketone.com/steven ketone.com/steven 20 to win. No purchase necessary, terms 20 to win. No purchase necessary, terms 20 to win. No purchase necessary, terms and conditions apply, and you'll also and conditions apply, and you'll also and conditions apply, and you'll also get 30% off your first subscription get 30% off your first subscription get 30% off your first subscription order, exclusive KetoneIQ merch, and of order, exclusive KetoneIQ merch, and of order, exclusive KetoneIQ merch, and of course, your shot at these signed course, your shot at these signed course, your shot at these signed gloves.

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The The US is, I guess, at in a war now. The The US is, I guess, at in a war now. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, not anymore. not anymore. not anymore. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Famous last words. >> Famous last words. >> Famous last words. >> Fair. >> Fair. >> Fair. >> Cuz we are in a ceasefire that I feel >> Cuz we are in a ceasefire that I feel >> Cuz we are in a ceasefire that I feel very good about. Okay. very good about. Okay. very good about. Okay. >> That we announced, I know this is going >> That we announced, I know this is going >> That we announced, I know this is going to air later, but but we announced the to air later, but but we announced the to air later, but but we announced the ceasefire we announced the the peace ceasefire we announced the the peace ceasefire we announced the the peace agreement with the Iranians yesterday. agreement with the Iranians yesterday. agreement with the Iranians yesterday. >> Yes. I've learned so much about war >> Yes. I've learned so much about war >> Yes. I've learned so much about war [clears throat] because of this war. [clears throat] because of this war. [clears throat] because of this war. Um in part because I'm an interviewer at Um in part because I'm an interviewer at Um in part because I'm an interviewer at the time of war. Sure. And so I've been the time of war. Sure. And so I've been the time of war. Sure. And so I've been having lots of conversations with lots having lots of conversations with lots having lots of conversations with lots of people about the nature of war, and of people about the nature of war, and of people about the nature of war, and I've learned so much. Frankly, I didn't I've learned so much. Frankly, I didn't I've learned so much. Frankly, I didn't know anything about Vietnam and really know anything about Vietnam and really know anything about Vietnam and really the psychology of war. the psychology of war. the psychology of war. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And how like when you start a war, >> And how like when you start a war, >> And how like when you start a war, Robert Pape said this to me. He said, Robert Pape said this to me. He said, Robert Pape said this to me. He said, "The thing you people underestimate "The thing you people underestimate "The thing you people underestimate about a war is when the bombs start about a war is when the bombs start about a war is when the bombs start dropping, politics changes both where dropping, politics changes both where dropping, politics changes both where the bombs are dropping and at home." the bombs are dropping and at home." the bombs are dropping and at home." >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And I I to some degree think that with >> And I I to some degree think that with >> And I I to some degree think that with the Iran war now, that's like exactly the Iran war now, that's like exactly the Iran war now, that's like exactly what happened. what happened. what happened. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It from my assessment of it, which is >> It from my assessment of it, which is >> It from my assessment of it, which is it looked like it was going to be quite it looked like it was going to be quite it looked like it was going to be quite straightforward. Drop the bombs, take straightforward. Drop the bombs, take straightforward. Drop the bombs, take out the leader. out the leader. out the leader. Um the people rise up, which is what um Um the people rise up, which is what um Um the people rise up, which is what um the president had said he had encouraged the president had said he had encouraged the president had said he had encouraged the people to rise up when those bombs the people to rise up when those bombs the people to rise up when those bombs dropped and Khamenei was taken out. But dropped and Khamenei was taken out. But dropped and Khamenei was taken out. But then what then happened, what it's then what then happened, what it's then what then happened, what it's again, I don't know what I'm talking again, I don't know what I'm talking again, I don't know what I'm talking about here, so please correct me. Is it about here, so please correct me. Is it about here, so please correct me. Is it looked like the country kind of looked like the country kind of looked like the country kind of fractured into all of these sort of fractured into all of these sort of fractured into all of these sort of little pockets of m- militia and little pockets of m- militia and little pockets of m- militia and military. Um I remember, I think it was military. Um I remember, I think it was military. Um I remember, I think it was Hegseth saying, "It just takes some time Hegseth saying, "It just takes some time Hegseth saying, "It just takes some time for the carrier pigeon to get out to for the carrier pigeon to get out to for the carrier pigeon to get out to where the soldiers are, the outpost."

where the soldiers are, the outpost." where the soldiers are, the outpost." But and it's to how the fracturing had But and it's to how the fracturing had But and it's to how the fracturing had happened. happened. happened. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then I had the president, and I >> And then I had the president, and I >> And then I had the president, and I think yourself, multiple times say like think yourself, multiple times say like think yourself, multiple times say like we don't really know who we're we don't really know who we're we don't really know who we're negotiating with or words to that negotiating with or words to that negotiating with or words to that effect. effect. effect. Because we've taken out the first and Because we've taken out the first and Because we've taken out the first and second row of leadership. second row of leadership. second row of leadership. And then And then And then I I thought we were gosh, we're in the I I thought we were gosh, we're in the I I thought we were gosh, we're in the same situation again where the bombs same situation again where the bombs same situation again where the bombs started dropping. Unintended started dropping. Unintended started dropping. Unintended consequences were there's now not one consequences were there's now not one consequences were there's now not one central leadership to negotiate with, central leadership to negotiate with, central leadership to negotiate with, but also politics at home has shifted. but also politics at home has shifted. but also politics at home has shifted. The I mean, the approval ratings of The I mean, the approval ratings of The I mean, the approval ratings of I got this graph of the approval ratings I got this graph of the approval ratings I got this graph of the approval ratings had started to plummet at home. had started to plummet at home. had started to plummet at home. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And politics are changing on the ground >> And politics are changing on the ground >> And politics are changing on the ground there as well. Is this another forever there as well. Is this another forever there as well. Is this another forever war? war? war? >> Well, the answer is no. >> Well, the answer is no. >> Well, the answer is no. Um and you know, this is always Um and you know, this is always Um and you know, this is always when I I talked about this this when I I talked about this this when I I talked about this this conflict, conflict, conflict, I always said, I always said, I always said, "Donald Trump learned the lessons." It's "Donald Trump learned the lessons." It's "Donald Trump learned the lessons." It's actually that's almost unfair to him. He actually that's almost unfair to him. He actually that's almost unfair to him. He didn't learn the lessons of the Iraq war didn't learn the lessons of the Iraq war didn't learn the lessons of the Iraq war because back during the Iraq war, he was because back during the Iraq war, he was because back during the Iraq war, he was saying this was stupid, we should get saying this was stupid, we should get saying this was stupid, we should get out of Iraq.

out of Iraq. out of Iraq. He was saying that back then. He was saying that back then. He was saying that back then. And I think that while there were And I think that while there were And I think that while there were certainly some objectives that we had in certainly some objectives that we had in certainly some objectives that we had in this conflict, I just never had any this conflict, I just never had any this conflict, I just never had any doubt. Now, obviously I'm an insider. I doubt. Now, obviously I'm an insider. I doubt. Now, obviously I'm an insider. I saw the president's deliberations and saw the president's deliberations and saw the president's deliberations and thought on this. But I I never had any thought on this. But I I never had any thought on this. But I I never had any worry that this would become a worry that this would become a worry that this would become a multi-year expedition with no end in multi-year expedition with no end in multi-year expedition with no end in sight because I knew that we had sight because I knew that we had sight because I knew that we had leadership that was trying to define the leadership that was trying to define the leadership that was trying to define the objective very narrowly, accomplish the objective very narrowly, accomplish the objective very narrowly, accomplish the objective, and then see where we are. objective, and then see where we are. objective, and then see where we are. And so, [clears throat] you know, if you And so, [clears throat] you know, if you And so, [clears throat] you know, if you go back to you talk about this this go back to you talk about this this go back to you talk about this this street uprising. Certainly there was street uprising. Certainly there was street uprising. Certainly there was some thought that it would be possible some thought that it would be possible some thought that it would be possible that the Iranian street would rise up in that the Iranian street would rise up in that the Iranian street would rise up in the face of this thing and that you the face of this thing and that you the face of this thing and that you would see, you know, a new government would see, you know, a new government would see, you know, a new government that was much more pro-American, much that was much more pro-American, much that was much more pro-American, much more pro-Western. more pro-Western. more pro-Western. What what happened though is in what we What what happened though is in what we What what happened though is in what we knew we could do is degrade their knew we could do is degrade their knew we could do is degrade their military. That was the that was actually military. That was the that was actually military. That was the that was actually the primary objective. Yes, the the primary objective. Yes, the the primary objective. Yes, the president talked about the Iranians president talked about the Iranians president talked about the Iranians rising up, but the primary objective was rising up, but the primary objective was rising up, but the primary objective was always to degrade their conventional always to degrade their conventional always to degrade their conventional power so that we could be in a better power so that we could be in a better power so that we could be in a better position vis-à-vis Iran. So, whoever was position vis-à-vis Iran. So, whoever was position vis-à-vis Iran. So, whoever was calling the shots, they didn't have a calling the shots, they didn't have a calling the shots, they didn't have a loaded gun to our head anymore, okay?

loaded gun to our head anymore, okay? loaded gun to our head anymore, okay? And that's what we knew we could And that's what we knew we could And that's what we knew we could accomplish. And then there was always accomplish. And then there was always accomplish. And then there was always the question about, okay, now that we've the question about, okay, now that we've the question about, okay, now that we've accomplished that, where do we go from accomplished that, where do we go from accomplished that, where do we go from here? here? here? And, you know, what one of the things And, you know, what one of the things And, you know, what one of the things that I I feel just just quite good about that I I feel just just quite good about that I I feel just just quite good about this moment that we're in this moment that we're in this moment that we're in is the president basically bought us an is the president basically bought us an is the president basically bought us an option. He said, we can weaken their option. He said, we can weaken their option. He said, we can weaken their military, destroy their conventional military, destroy their conventional military, destroy their conventional military, we can change their military, we can change their military, we can change their leadership, and then we can actually leadership, and then we can actually leadership, and then we can actually present a pathway to the Iranian present a pathway to the Iranian present a pathway to the Iranian leadership where do we go from here? leadership where do we go from here? leadership where do we go from here? Like you said something very interesting Like you said something very interesting Like you said something very interesting that was true two months ago that's not that was true two months ago that's not that was true two months ago that's not true now. Two months ago I would have true now. Two months ago I would have true now. Two months ago I would have said I had no idea who we're who we're said I had no idea who we're who we're said I had no idea who we're who we're negotiating with, absolutely. Now I feel negotiating with, absolutely. Now I feel negotiating with, absolutely. Now I feel very confident that we have an very confident that we have an very confident that we have an understanding of who we're negotiating understanding of who we're negotiating understanding of who we're negotiating with, what it is that they care about. with, what it is that they care about. with, what it is that they care about. Yes, there are fractures in their Yes, there are fractures in their Yes, there are fractures in their system. Well, there there so so the system. Well, there there so so the system. Well, there there so so the Iranian system, this is very Iranian system, this is very Iranian system, this is very oversimplifying it a lot, but it has oversimplifying it a lot, but it has oversimplifying it a lot, but it has kind of three poles. There's the kind of three poles. There's the kind of three poles. There's the political pole, the people who are most political pole, the people who are most political pole, the people who are most responsive to leadership. That's the responsive to leadership. That's the responsive to leadership. That's the foreign minister, the president, the foreign minister, the president, the foreign minister, the president, the speaker of the parliament, okay? There speaker of the parliament, okay? There speaker of the parliament, okay? There is a clerical pole, meaning the clerics is a clerical pole, meaning the clerics is a clerical pole, meaning the clerics who actually hold ultimate authority in who actually hold ultimate authority in who actually hold ultimate authority in the Iranian system via the supreme the Iranian system via the supreme the Iranian system via the supreme leader. The the clerics, the the leader. The the clerics, the the leader. The the clerics, the the the the religious leaders. And then you the the religious leaders. And then you the the religious leaders. And then you have the military, particularly the have the military, particularly the have the military, particularly the IRGC, okay? All three of these poles IRGC, okay? All three of these poles IRGC, okay? All three of these poles interact with each other in in weird interact with each other in in weird interact with each other in in weird ways. And one of the things we ways. And one of the things we ways. And one of the things we definitely two months ago we were like, definitely two months ago we were like, definitely two months ago we were like, wait a second, who has the upper hand?

wait a second, who has the upper hand? wait a second, who has the upper hand? What does this group want versus this What does this group want versus this What does this group want versus this group versus that group? But what what I group versus that group? But what what I group versus that group? But what what I feel pretty confident about now, I mean feel pretty confident about now, I mean feel pretty confident about now, I mean this this we're we're taping this this this we're we're taping this this this we're we're taping this interview I guess June 15th, right? What interview I guess June 15th, right? What interview I guess June 15th, right? What I feel quite confident about right now I feel quite confident about right now I feel quite confident about right now is that we know who we're dealing with is that we know who we're dealing with is that we know who we're dealing with and the fractures really aren't and the fractures really aren't and the fractures really aren't the the you know, the system is kind of the the you know, the system is kind of the the you know, the system is kind of coalesced. coalesced. coalesced. And what what they're telling us, which And what what they're telling us, which And what what they're telling us, which is interesting. Now, is it the street is interesting. Now, is it the street is interesting. Now, is it the street rising up? No. But what they're telling rising up? No. But what they're telling rising up? No. But what they're telling us is, you know what? us is, you know what? us is, you know what? You know, obviously they're not like You know, obviously they're not like You know, obviously they're not like endorsing anything that we did. There's endorsing anything that we did. There's endorsing anything that we did. There's a lot of mistrust, a lot of animosity, a lot of mistrust, a lot of animosity, a lot of mistrust, a lot of animosity, but you know, fundamentally we've done but you know, fundamentally we've done but you know, fundamentally we've done one thing vis-a-vis the United States one thing vis-a-vis the United States one thing vis-a-vis the United States for 47 years and we shouldn't do that for 47 years and we shouldn't do that for 47 years and we shouldn't do that thing anymore. We want to change. thing anymore. We want to change. thing anymore. We want to change. And if you, the Americans, are willing And if you, the Americans, are willing And if you, the Americans, are willing to actually negotiate with us, to have a to actually negotiate with us, to have a to actually negotiate with us, to have a conversation, yeah, we're willing to conversation, yeah, we're willing to conversation, yeah, we're willing to make the long-term commitment never to make the long-term commitment never to make the long-term commitment never to develop nuclear weapons, but we want a develop nuclear weapons, but we want a develop nuclear weapons, but we want a totally different economic arrangement totally different economic arrangement totally different economic arrangement than what we have with the West right than what we have with the West right than what we have with the West right now. So, that's where we're at right now now. So, that's where we're at right now now. So, that's where we're at right now is actually figuring out the details of is actually figuring out the details of is actually figuring out the details of what that would look like.

what that would look like. what that would look like. But where where we stand right now, I But where where we stand right now, I But where where we stand right now, I actually feel pretty good about it. I actually feel pretty good about it. I actually feel pretty good about it. I feel good that we actually could have a feel good that we actually could have a feel good that we actually could have a better relationship with that country. I better relationship with that country. I better relationship with that country. I feel good that they'll never have a feel good that they'll never have a feel good that they'll never have a nuclear weapon, so that'd be like a real nuclear weapon, so that'd be like a real nuclear weapon, so that'd be like a real loaded gun they would have to the west. loaded gun they would have to the west. loaded gun they would have to the west. But I also think that there is a general But I also think that there is a general But I also think that there is a general consensus that their in in their system consensus that their in in their system consensus that their in in their system that their relationship would be that their relationship would be that their relationship would be different than than um than the past. different than than um than the past. different than than um than the past. The other thing just, this is very The other thing just, this is very The other thing just, this is very important. important. important. The under-appreciated element, like this The under-appreciated element, like this The under-appreciated element, like this is like if I was ever going to write a is like if I was ever going to write a is like if I was ever going to write a book about Donald Trump's foreign book about Donald Trump's foreign book about Donald Trump's foreign policy, and by the way, he hates people policy, and by the way, he hates people policy, and by the way, he hates people who write books, not like books like who write books, not like books like who write books, not like books like that, but insider books where you take that, but insider books where you take that, but insider books where you take trusted information and put it into a a trusted information and put it into a a trusted information and put it into a a book. Doesn't like that. But what I book. Doesn't like that. But what I book. Doesn't like that. But what I would what I would say is he's so would what I would say is he's so would what I would say is he's so non-conventional in the way that he does non-conventional in the way that he does non-conventional in the way that he does everything, but certainly the way that everything, but certainly the way that everything, but certainly the way that he does foreign policy, that things that he does foreign policy, that things that he does foreign policy, that things that were previously unimaginable are were previously unimaginable are were previously unimaginable are actually on the table. So when Donald actually on the table. So when Donald actually on the table. So when Donald Trump says to the Iranians, "We want you Trump says to the Iranians, "We want you Trump says to the Iranians, "We want you to be a successful country. If you give to be a successful country. If you give to be a successful country. If you give us what we need on nuclear, we'll take us what we need on nuclear, we'll take us what we need on nuclear, we'll take the sanctions off your country and allow the sanctions off your country and allow the sanctions off your country and allow you to prosper." That would have been you to prosper." That would have been you to prosper." That would have been unthinkable 10 years ago in any Democrat unthinkable 10 years ago in any Democrat unthinkable 10 years ago in any Democrat or Republican administration, but it's or Republican administration, but it's or Republican administration, but it's thinkable because Donald Trump is just thinkable because Donald Trump is just thinkable because Donald Trump is just like, "No. The way things worked in the like, "No. The way things worked in the like, "No. The way things worked in the past are dumb. We're going to do past are dumb. We're going to do past are dumb. We're going to do something new." And that's that's what something new." And that's that's what something new." And that's that's what he's putting on the table. We'll see if he's putting on the table. We'll see if he's putting on the table. We'll see if they meet us, but right now I feel they meet us, but right now I feel they meet us, but right now I feel pretty good about it.

pretty good about it. pretty good about it. >> term I'd never heard before, Strait of >> term I'd never heard before, Strait of >> term I'd never heard before, Strait of Hormuz. Hormuz. Hormuz. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I've heard that so much about the bloody >> I've heard that so much about the bloody >> I've heard that so much about the bloody Strait of Hormuz. Strait of Hormuz. Strait of Hormuz. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um, did you have any idea that the >> Um, did you have any idea that the >> Um, did you have any idea that the Iranians would cut off the Strait of Iranians would cut off the Strait of Iranians would cut off the Strait of Hormuz? You you you you did know that Hormuz? You you you you did know that Hormuz? You you you you did know that going into it, so going into it, so going into it, so >> It was a major Yeah, it's it's it's you >> It was a major Yeah, it's it's it's you >> It was a major Yeah, it's it's it's you see these media reports like the the see these media reports like the the see these media reports like the the Trump team was caught off guard. What Trump team was caught off guard. What Trump team was caught off guard. What would happen in the Strait of Hormuz was would happen in the Strait of Hormuz was would happen in the Strait of Hormuz was a main fixture of the conversation that a main fixture of the conversation that a main fixture of the conversation that we were having about whether to do this, we were having about whether to do this, we were having about whether to do this, how to do this. So it was certainly a how to do this. So it was certainly a how to do this. So it was certainly a variable. Now now you could never variable. Now now you could never variable. Now now you could never predict with 100% certainty what people predict with 100% certainty what people predict with 100% certainty what people were going to do, but the basic bias were going to do, but the basic bias were going to do, but the basic bias that we had going into it is that they that we had going into it is that they that we had going into it is that they would try to cut off the Strait. They would try to cut off the Strait. They would try to cut off the Strait. They would try to jack up energy prices. They would try to jack up energy prices. They would try to jack up energy prices. They thought, and I think this is true, they thought, and I think this is true, they thought, and I think this is true, they thought that they could cut off the thought that they could cut off the thought that they could cut off the Straits for us, but actually keep the Straits for us, but actually keep the Straits for us, but actually keep the Straits open for themselves. That ended Straits open for themselves. That ended Straits open for themselves. That ended up not being true when we imposed the up not being true when we imposed the up not being true when we imposed the blockade. But fundamentally, we we knew blockade. But fundamentally, we we knew blockade. But fundamentally, we we knew some version of what would happen, but some version of what would happen, but some version of what would happen, but we also went into it saying, "If they do we also went into it saying, "If they do we also went into it saying, "If they do this, fundamentally it's a short-term this, fundamentally it's a short-term this, fundamentally it's a short-term thing."

thing." thing." So, like Brent crude is sort of the main So, like Brent crude is sort of the main So, like Brent crude is sort of the main crude oil index, right? I think the crude oil index, right? I think the crude oil index, right? I think the highest it got was $126 per barrel. highest it got was $126 per barrel. highest it got was $126 per barrel. Right now, sitting here, it's around $82 Right now, sitting here, it's around $82 Right now, sitting here, it's around $82 a barrel. It's fallen off a cliff a barrel. It's fallen off a cliff a barrel. It's fallen off a cliff because there's a broad recognition that because there's a broad recognition that because there's a broad recognition that yeah, it was a short-term shock, but not yeah, it was a short-term shock, but not yeah, it was a short-term shock, but not a short-term shock that's going to a short-term shock that's going to a short-term shock that's going to permanently alter the world energy permanently alter the world energy permanently alter the world energy economy. economy. economy. >> It's quite powerful weapon they have in >> It's quite powerful weapon they have in >> It's quite powerful weapon they have in their arsenal just to take shut of the their arsenal just to take shut of the their arsenal just to take shut of the world's economy and piss off your people world's economy and piss off your people world's economy and piss off your people at home at the gas pump. at home at the gas pump. at home at the gas pump. It's quite like it's quite a It's quite like it's quite a It's quite like it's quite a >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, uh geography really matters in >> Well, uh geography really matters in >> Well, uh geography really matters in warfare, it turns out. And yes, they warfare, it turns out. And yes, they warfare, it turns out. And yes, they have great proximity to the Strait of have great proximity to the Strait of have great proximity to the Strait of Hormuz, but but again, Hormuz, but but again, Hormuz, but but again, >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> if you just go back 2 weeks ago, >> if you just go back 2 weeks ago, >> if you just go back 2 weeks ago, one of the things that's interesting, one of the things that's interesting, one of the things that's interesting, really underreported, um but I think, really underreported, um but I think, really underreported, um but I think, you know, your listeners will obviously you know, your listeners will obviously you know, your listeners will obviously be interested in, be interested in, be interested in, is is is if you look at the amount of oil that we if you look at the amount of oil that we if you look at the amount of oil that we were getting out of the Strait of were getting out of the Strait of were getting out of the Strait of Hormuz, we I mean, the United States, Hormuz, we I mean, the United States, Hormuz, we I mean, the United States, the Gulf Coast Coalition, broadly the Gulf Coast Coalition, broadly the Gulf Coast Coalition, broadly speaking, the Arabs in the Gulf, right? speaking, the Arabs in the Gulf, right? speaking, the Arabs in the Gulf, right? You look at it what it was, call it You look at it what it was, call it You look at it what it was, call it April 1st, it was like close to zero.

April 1st, it was like close to zero. April 1st, it was like close to zero. You go to May 30th, early June, it was You go to May 30th, early June, it was You go to May 30th, early June, it was many, many million barrels of of oil a many, many million barrels of of oil a many, many million barrels of of oil a day. Now, not enough to eliminate the day. Now, not enough to eliminate the day. Now, not enough to eliminate the shock, to be clear, but we were seeing shock, to be clear, but we were seeing shock, to be clear, but we were seeing significant increases in oil traffic. significant increases in oil traffic. significant increases in oil traffic. And again, I think that's one of the And again, I think that's one of the And again, I think that's one of the reasons why we're having a good reasons why we're having a good reasons why we're having a good negotiation with the Iranians is they negotiation with the Iranians is they negotiation with the Iranians is they recognized yes, they have this leverage recognized yes, they have this leverage recognized yes, they have this leverage point, but maybe not forever. And it's point, but maybe not forever. And it's point, but maybe not forever. And it's one of those cards you can play, one of those cards you can play, one of those cards you can play, but you can't necessarily play it week but you can't necessarily play it week but you can't necessarily play it week after week after week. It degrades in after week after week. It degrades in after week after week. It degrades in power. So, I take your point, yeah, they power. So, I take your point, yeah, they power. So, I take your point, yeah, they have this geographical thing going on, have this geographical thing going on, have this geographical thing going on, but I think that geographical leverage but I think that geographical leverage but I think that geographical leverage point was weakening over time, and it's point was weakening over time, and it's point was weakening over time, and it's it's why we are where we are with I it's why we are where we are with I it's why we are where we are with I think with a very good deal. think with a very good deal. think with a very good deal. >> Cuz with >> Cuz with >> Cuz with >> Knock on wood. We have to see it to >> Knock on wood. We have to see it to >> Knock on wood. We have to see it to completion. completion. completion. >> Because if you're them, And go, "Well, >> Because if you're them, And go, "Well, >> Because if you're them, And go, "Well, all I've got to do is wait 2 years. Cuz all I've got to do is wait 2 years. Cuz all I've got to do is wait 2 years. Cuz the president is going to be, you know, the president is going to be, you know, the president is going to be, you know, removed from from office in 2 years removed from from office in 2 years removed from from office in 2 years time. He's going to be at the end of his time. He's going to be at the end of his time. He's going to be at the end of his term. So, if they could just wait it out term. So, if they could just wait it out term. So, if they could just wait it out for 2 years, for 2 years, for 2 years, they can hope that new political leader they can hope that new political leader they can hope that new political leader that comes in that comes in that comes in um might be more charitable with them.

um might be more charitable with them. um might be more charitable with them. >> Yeah, but if if if Donald Trump has 2 >> Yeah, but if if if Donald Trump has 2 >> Yeah, but if if if Donald Trump has 2 and 1/2 years left in office, I think and 1/2 years left in office, I think and 1/2 years left in office, I think the Iranians recognize they did not have the Iranians recognize they did not have the Iranians recognize they did not have 2 and 1/2 years to wait things out. One 2 and 1/2 years to wait things out. One 2 and 1/2 years to wait things out. One is more as we got more and more oil out is more as we got more and more oil out is more as we got more and more oil out of the straight, their leverage point of the straight, their leverage point of the straight, their leverage point decreased. But it's always more decreased. But it's always more decreased. But it's always more importantly, like look, you look at importantly, like look, you look at importantly, like look, you look at Persian culture, you look at the history Persian culture, you look at the history Persian culture, you look at the history of Iran. This is one of the proudest and of Iran. This is one of the proudest and of Iran. This is one of the proudest and oldest civilizations anywhere in the oldest civilizations anywhere in the oldest civilizations anywhere in the world. They don't want to be like a world. They don't want to be like a world. They don't want to be like a Libya-style rump state. They want to Libya-style rump state. They want to Libya-style rump state. They want to have a much brighter future. Like I have a much brighter future. Like I have a much brighter future. Like I think that that's actually true. Now, think that that's actually true. Now, think that that's actually true. Now, there's a question about how to get there's a question about how to get there's a question about how to get there, and obviously there's a lot of there, and obviously there's a lot of there, and obviously there's a lot of animosity between the two sides, but I animosity between the two sides, but I animosity between the two sides, but I do think something has fundamentally do think something has fundamentally do think something has fundamentally changed in the way that regime sees the changed in the way that regime sees the changed in the way that regime sees the world. world. world. >> The um >> The um >> The um the deal that you have on the table the deal that you have on the table the deal that you have on the table >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Now, okay, excuse me if I'm skeptical. >> Now, okay, excuse me if I'm skeptical. >> Now, okay, excuse me if I'm skeptical. But I said to you before we start start But I said to you before we start start But I said to you before we start start recording, I watch everything. recording, I watch everything. recording, I watch everything. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, I've watched every If if you do an >> So, I've watched every If if you do an >> So, I've watched every If if you do an interview, Heggseth does one, if the interview, Heggseth does one, if the interview, Heggseth does one, if the president does one, I see it. I see the president does one, I see it. I see the president does one, I see it. I see the whole thing. I don't know why, whole thing. I don't know why, whole thing. I don't know why, but I that I I'm very very interested in but I that I I'm very very interested in but I that I I'm very very interested in US politics because it does impact the US politics because it does impact the US politics because it does impact the whole world. whole world. whole world. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> Sure. >> And as I've watched these interviews, >> And as I've watched these interviews, >> And as I've watched these interviews, there's been lots of false deals. You there's been lots of false deals. You there's been lots of false deals. You flew out there to Pakistan, and you flew flew out there to Pakistan, and you flew flew out there to Pakistan, and you flew right back. The deal wasn't done. right back. The deal wasn't done. right back. The deal wasn't done. Um I think I saw a report the other day Um I think I saw a report the other day Um I think I saw a report the other day that said uh the president has said that said uh the president has said that said uh the president has said roughly 30 times that there's a deal roughly 30 times that there's a deal roughly 30 times that there's a deal done or that there's a deal on the done or that there's a deal on the done or that there's a deal on the table. table. table. Usually on a Sunday, then it's not, then Usually on a Sunday, then it's not, then Usually on a Sunday, then it's not, then we go back into this negotiation thing. we go back into this negotiation thing. we go back into this negotiation thing. So, I'm like, I don't have any trust So, I'm like, I don't have any trust So, I'm like, I don't have any trust anymore for the for a deal getting done. anymore for the for a deal getting done. anymore for the for a deal getting done. >> Well, this one's real. So. >> Well, this one's real. So. >> Well, this one's real. So. >> Okay, good. Okay, so >> Okay, good. Okay, so >> Okay, good. Okay, so >> People can always change their minds, >> People can always change their minds, >> People can always change their minds, but this one is real. but this one is real. but this one is real. >> For sure. So, what what does that mean? >> For sure. So, what what does that mean? >> For sure. So, what what does that mean? Does it mean that there's a contract Does it mean that there's a contract Does it mean that there's a contract that has been sent with terms on it, and that has been sent with terms on it, and that has been sent with terms on it, and they've provisionally, like a term they've provisionally, like a term they've provisionally, like a term sheet, said, "We agree." sheet, said, "We agree." sheet, said, "We agree." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> That's exactly what's happened. >> That's exactly what's happened. >> That's exactly what's happened. >> Okay, so they've agreed to a term sheet. >> Okay, so they've agreed to a term sheet. >> Okay, so they've agreed to a term sheet. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then as is the case in business and >> And then as is the case in business and >> And then as is the case in business and investing, that becomes more of a investing, that becomes more of a investing, that becomes more of a formalized contract formalized contract formalized contract >> Correct. and then that's signed. >> Correct. and then that's signed. >> Correct. and then that's signed. So what is in the term sheet? So what is in the term sheet? So what is in the term sheet? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Well, a few things. So the the first is >> Well, a few things. So the the first is >> Well, a few things. So the the first is that the Strait of Hormuz opens that the Strait of Hormuz opens that the Strait of Hormuz opens effectively immediately and the blockade effectively immediately and the blockade effectively immediately and the blockade is lifted effectively immediately. Now is lifted effectively immediately. Now is lifted effectively immediately. Now when I say effectively, that's doing a when I say effectively, that's doing a when I say effectively, that's doing a little bit of work there because, you little bit of work there because, you little bit of work there because, you know, part of what's going on is there's know, part of what's going on is there's know, part of what's going on is there's a different risk tolerance for different a different risk tolerance for different a different risk tolerance for different shippers in the Gulf. So some again, shippers in the Gulf. So some again, shippers in the Gulf. So some again, like I said earlier, some of these guys like I said earlier, some of these guys like I said earlier, some of these guys are already shipping a lot of oil are already shipping a lot of oil are already shipping a lot of oil through the Strait of Hormuz right now through the Strait of Hormuz right now through the Strait of Hormuz right now even though the Iranians are threatening even though the Iranians are threatening even though the Iranians are threatening to shoot at them.

to shoot at them. to shoot at them. But what what this means is that over But what what this means is that over But what what this means is that over time, we're going to de-mine the Strait time, we're going to de-mine the Strait time, we're going to de-mine the Strait of Hormuz. The Iranians are going to of Hormuz. The Iranians are going to of Hormuz. The Iranians are going to stop shooting. We're going to lift our stop shooting. We're going to lift our stop shooting. We're going to lift our naval blockade and you're going to see I naval blockade and you're going to see I naval blockade and you're going to see I think a pretty quick resumption of full think a pretty quick resumption of full think a pretty quick resumption of full flow of traffic in the Strait of Hormuz. flow of traffic in the Strait of Hormuz. flow of traffic in the Strait of Hormuz. That that's number one and the most That that's number one and the most That that's number one and the most important thing. important thing. important thing. >> There's mines in >> There's mines in >> There's mines in >> Yeah, there there there mines in there, >> Yeah, there there there mines in there, >> Yeah, there there there mines in there, but it it's, you know, it's a very big but it it's, you know, it's a very big but it it's, you know, it's a very big waterway. There's a lot of traffic waterway. There's a lot of traffic waterway. There's a lot of traffic moving right now. So we know where the moving right now. So we know where the moving right now. So we know where the mines are. They're not everywhere. And, mines are. They're not everywhere. And, mines are. They're not everywhere. And, you know, again, the ships are able to you know, again, the ships are able to you know, again, the ships are able to move. The biggest obstacle and move. The biggest obstacle and move. The biggest obstacle and impediment to ships moving right now is impediment to ships moving right now is impediment to ships moving right now is actually not the mines themselves. It's actually not the mines themselves. It's actually not the mines themselves. It's the Iranians who are shooting drones and the Iranians who are shooting drones and the Iranians who are shooting drones and missiles on the other side. Now I say missiles on the other side. Now I say missiles on the other side. Now I say that, we have seen a precipitous decline that, we have seen a precipitous decline that, we have seen a precipitous decline since we signed this agreement, we've since we signed this agreement, we've since we signed this agreement, we've seen a precipitous decline in even that seen a precipitous decline in even that seen a precipitous decline in even that happening. So you're already again happening. So you're already again happening. So you're already again seeing the fruits of this negotiation seeing the fruits of this negotiation seeing the fruits of this negotiation that we have. that we have. that we have. Number two, Number two, Number two, is it contemplates the Iranians is it contemplates the Iranians is it contemplates the Iranians giving up their highly enriched giving up their highly enriched giving up their highly enriched stockpile of material, stockpile of material, stockpile of material, committing to a long-term inspections committing to a long-term inspections committing to a long-term inspections regime on their nuclear program, and in regime on their nuclear program, and in regime on their nuclear program, and in exchange having a totally different exchange having a totally different exchange having a totally different economic relationship with the United economic relationship with the United economic relationship with the United States of America. So like there's a States of America. So like there's a States of America. So like there's a stack of of sanctions that the US has on stack of of sanctions that the US has on stack of of sanctions that the US has on Iran that is like 60 pages long.

Iran that is like 60 pages long. Iran that is like 60 pages long. That is incredibly destructive to the That is incredibly destructive to the That is incredibly destructive to the Iranian economy by design, right? The Iranian economy by design, right? The Iranian economy by design, right? The the the deal is you're not going to the the deal is you're not going to the the deal is you're not going to behave like a normal country, we're not behave like a normal country, we're not behave like a normal country, we're not going to engage in normal trade and going to engage in normal trade and going to engage in normal trade and transactions with you. What this transactions with you. What this transactions with you. What this agreement provides is that if the agreement provides is that if the agreement provides is that if the Iranians take significant steps to Iranians take significant steps to Iranians take significant steps to behave like a normal country, they're behave like a normal country, they're behave like a normal country, they're going to get significant reintegration going to get significant reintegration going to get significant reintegration into the world economy. And I think into the world economy. And I think into the world economy. And I think that's that's that that is in some ways that's that's that that is in some ways that's that's that that is in some ways the most profound thing. And what the the most profound thing. And what the the most profound thing. And what the United States gets out of that is is the United States gets out of that is is the United States gets out of that is is the long-term guarantee that they never long-term guarantee that they never long-term guarantee that they never become a nuclear power. Like people become a nuclear power. Like people become a nuclear power. Like people always sort of it's hard to to always sort of it's hard to to always sort of it's hard to to appreciate how temporal this is. appreciate how temporal this is. appreciate how temporal this is. The Iranian nuclear program has been The Iranian nuclear program has been The Iranian nuclear program has been completely destroyed. Like it doesn't completely destroyed. Like it doesn't completely destroyed. Like it doesn't exist right now. But over time, you can exist right now. But over time, you can exist right now. But over time, you can try to rebuild it. And so what we're try to rebuild it. And so what we're try to rebuild it. And so what we're trying to say is trying to say is trying to say is we don't want you to rebuild this we don't want you to rebuild this we don't want you to rebuild this program. If you make real commitments program. If you make real commitments program. If you make real commitments and verifiable commitments that you're and verifiable commitments that you're and verifiable commitments that you're not going to, then you're going to get a not going to, then you're going to get a not going to, then you're going to get a lot of economic benefits on the side. lot of economic benefits on the side. lot of economic benefits on the side. >> You dropped those big bunker buster >> You dropped those big bunker buster >> You dropped those big bunker buster bombs. bombs. bombs. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Um it's very fascinating about all the >> Um it's very fascinating about all the >> Um it's very fascinating about all the all that whole all that whole all that whole >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> series of military operations and um >> series of military operations and um >> series of military operations and um it the nuclear material is now buried it the nuclear material is now buried it the nuclear material is now buried pretty deep underground from what I pretty deep underground from what I pretty deep underground from what I understand. With this deal, do you get understand. With this deal, do you get understand. With this deal, do you get to go and get it? Do they hand it over to go and get it? Do they hand it over to go and get it? Do they hand it over to you? What happens?

to you? What happens? to you? What happens? >> So the way the deal is is structured is >> So the way the deal is is structured is >> So the way the deal is is structured is that the Iranians, the Americans, and that the Iranians, the Americans, and that the Iranians, the Americans, and the International Atomic Energy Agency the International Atomic Energy Agency the International Atomic Energy Agency will actually work together to go get will actually work together to go get will actually work together to go get the material and destroy it. That's the material and destroy it. That's the material and destroy it. That's That's the basic idea. Is they're all That's the basic idea. Is they're all That's the basic idea. Is they're all going to work together. Again, the the going to work together. Again, the the going to work together. Again, the the agreement contemplates a new era in agreement contemplates a new era in agreement contemplates a new era in relationship. So the idea is that we're relationship. So the idea is that we're relationship. So the idea is that we're all going to try to work together, all going to try to work together, all going to try to work together, destroy this material. And again, if destroy this material. And again, if destroy this material. And again, if that happens, the Iranians are going to that happens, the Iranians are going to that happens, the Iranians are going to have a totally different economic have a totally different economic have a totally different economic relationship with the West. And if it relationship with the West. And if it relationship with the West. And if it doesn't happen, then the United States doesn't happen, then the United States doesn't happen, then the United States is no worse off. is no worse off. is no worse off. >> And you do you get to check that they're >> And you do you get to check that they're >> And you do you get to check that they're not just going to a different mountain not just going to a different mountain not just going to a different mountain and building new nuclear weapons? and building new nuclear weapons? and building new nuclear weapons? >> the verification element comes in, but >> the verification element comes in, but >> the verification element comes in, but we have a very good sense. You know, you we have a very good sense. You know, you we have a very good sense. You know, you can probably guess why. We have a very can probably guess why. We have a very can probably guess why. We have a very good sense of what's going on in the good sense of what's going on in the good sense of what's going on in the country of Iran. We could probably keep country of Iran. We could probably keep country of Iran. We could probably keep that material just permanently buried, that material just permanently buried, that material just permanently buried, but we don't want to do that. We but we don't want to do that. We but we don't want to do that. We actually want to solve the problem and actually want to solve the problem and actually want to solve the problem and we want the Iranians to have a different we want the Iranians to have a different we want the Iranians to have a different relationship with us, and that's what relationship with us, and that's what relationship with us, and that's what we're trying to do. we're trying to do. we're trying to do. >> And the specifics of you being able to >> And the specifics of you being able to >> And the specifics of you being able to go and check that they're not just go and check that they're not just go and check that they're not just building new nuclear weapons. building new nuclear weapons. building new nuclear weapons. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> It sounds to me like the specifics >> It sounds to me like the specifics >> It sounds to me like the specifics haven't been defined yet, like how those haven't been defined yet, like how those haven't been defined yet, like how those checks take place. checks take place. checks take place. >> Well, it's Yeah, it's like you said, >> Well, it's Yeah, it's like you said, >> Well, it's Yeah, it's like you said, it's it's a term sheet where we've got it's it's a term sheet where we've got it's it's a term sheet where we've got broad agreement on principles and how broad agreement on principles and how broad agreement on principles and how we're going to approach the negotiation, we're going to approach the negotiation, we're going to approach the negotiation, but there are a lot of details that we but there are a lot of details that we but there are a lot of details that we got to figure out from here.

got to figure out from here. got to figure out from here. >> So, I've got straight out of his opens >> So, I've got straight out of his opens >> So, I've got straight out of his opens nuclear inspections, but also a nuclear inspections, but also a nuclear inspections, but also a coalition to remove the nuclear waste. coalition to remove the nuclear waste. coalition to remove the nuclear waste. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Um from that they get the opportunity to >> Um from that they get the opportunity to >> Um from that they get the opportunity to participate in the in the economy and participate in the in the economy and participate in the in the economy and sanctions will be lifted. sanctions will be lifted. sanctions will be lifted. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Is there anything that's in that term >> Is there anything that's in that term >> Is there anything that's in that term sheet that's not included there? sheet that's not included there? sheet that's not included there? >> I mean, there are other like little >> I mean, there are other like little >> I mean, there are other like little details and things like that. There's details and things like that. There's details and things like that. There's you know, obviously the permanent you know, obviously the permanent you know, obviously the permanent cessation of hostilities. We're trying cessation of hostilities. We're trying cessation of hostilities. We're trying to bring in a a regional era of peace to bring in a a regional era of peace to bring in a a regional era of peace here, but that's pretty much the main here, but that's pretty much the main here, but that's pretty much the main thing. thing. thing. >> And Israel, um there was >> And Israel, um there was >> And Israel, um there was some interesting words exchanged some interesting words exchanged some interesting words exchanged yesterday. [laughter] And I watch yesterday. [laughter] And I watch yesterday. [laughter] And I watch everything, so I saw that the the Fox everything, so I saw that the the Fox everything, so I saw that the the Fox reporter had called Trump, I think reporter had called Trump, I think reporter had called Trump, I think yesterday, yesterday, yesterday, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> because Netanyahu had started >> because Netanyahu had started >> because Netanyahu had started flat-firing some bombs. flat-firing some bombs. flat-firing some bombs. And he had some select words, kind of And he had some select words, kind of And he had some select words, kind of like your grandmother's words. like your grandmother's words. like your grandmother's words. >> Yes, indeed. >> Yes, indeed. >> Yes, indeed. >> Apparently, he said uh Trump said he'd >> Apparently, he said uh Trump said he'd >> Apparently, he said uh Trump said he'd phone Netanyahu and told him he had no phone Netanyahu and told him he had no phone Netanyahu and told him he had no judgment. Why did Bibi have to judgment. Why did Bibi have to judgment. Why did Bibi have to do a attack? I'm so pissed off do a attack? I'm so pissed off do a attack? I'm so pissed off an hour before we were supposed to sign an hour before we were supposed to sign an hour before we were supposed to sign the deal. Trump called Netanyahu a very the deal. Trump called Netanyahu a very the deal. Trump called Netanyahu a very difficult guy. He should be very difficult guy. He should be very difficult guy. He should be very thankful for us for doing this, because thankful for us for doing this, because thankful for us for doing this, because if Iran had a nuclear weapon, Israel if Iran had a nuclear weapon, Israel if Iran had a nuclear weapon, Israel wouldn't be around for 2 hours.

wouldn't be around for 2 hours. wouldn't be around for 2 hours. Um lots of cussing at Netanyahu Um lots of cussing at Netanyahu Um lots of cussing at Netanyahu [laughter] and what he had done. [laughter] and what he had done. [laughter] and what he had done. You I've heard you actually say that you You I've heard you actually say that you You I've heard you actually say that you think Israel and the United States have think Israel and the United States have think Israel and the United States have two different objectives as it relates two different objectives as it relates two different objectives as it relates to I don't want to mischaracterize your to I don't want to mischaracterize your to I don't want to mischaracterize your words, but words, but words, but >> All I'd say is that we're different >> All I'd say is that we're different >> All I'd say is that we're different countries with different interests. I countries with different interests. I countries with different interests. I think the United States sometimes people think the United States sometimes people think the United States sometimes people characterize You know, Israel is a is a characterize You know, Israel is a is a characterize You know, Israel is a is a good partner to the United States, that good partner to the United States, that good partner to the United States, that is true, but sometimes people is true, but sometimes people is true, but sometimes people mischaracterize it and say that Israel mischaracterize it and say that Israel mischaracterize it and say that Israel and the United States are fundamentally and the United States are fundamentally and the United States are fundamentally always aligned. It's just not true. always aligned. It's just not true. always aligned. It's just not true. We're different countries, we have We're different countries, we have We're different countries, we have different needs, we have different different needs, we have different different needs, we have different geographies. geographies. geographies. >> Do you trust them? >> Do you trust them? >> Do you trust them? >> You know, I don't trust anybody. >> You know, I don't trust anybody. >> You know, I don't trust anybody. Um Um Um when it comes to international affairs when it comes to international affairs when it comes to international affairs and diplomacy, do I think that they're and diplomacy, do I think that they're and diplomacy, do I think that they're they're very capable? Absolutely. Do I they're very capable? Absolutely. Do I they're very capable? Absolutely. Do I think that again, when we have shared think that again, when we have shared think that again, when we have shared interests, we work together very well? interests, we work together very well? interests, we work together very well? Absolutely. But but do I but I don't Absolutely. But but do I but I don't Absolutely. But but do I but I don't trust anyone. trust anyone. trust anyone. And I I think that we we just have to And I I think that we we just have to And I I think that we we just have to continually be laser-focused on what our continually be laser-focused on what our continually be laser-focused on what our interests are. And And you know what the interests are. And And you know what the interests are. And And you know what the president said about Bibi is you know, president said about Bibi is you know, president said about Bibi is you know, sometimes sometimes sometimes you know, we we are the world's you know, we we are the world's you know, we we are the world's superpower, and obviously we're Israel's superpower, and obviously we're Israel's superpower, and obviously we're Israel's most important ally anywhere in the most important ally anywhere in the most important ally anywhere in the world. And sometimes to ensure that we world. And sometimes to ensure that we world. And sometimes to ensure that we are able to accomplish our objectives, are able to accomplish our objectives, are able to accomplish our objectives, the president has to have a very frank the president has to have a very frank the president has to have a very frank conversation with the prime minister of conversation with the prime minister of conversation with the prime minister of Israel. Sometimes he does that.

Israel. Sometimes he does that. Israel. Sometimes he does that. Sometimes everything works smoothly. Sometimes everything works smoothly. Sometimes everything works smoothly. Sometimes it doesn't. It's just the Sometimes it doesn't. It's just the Sometimes it doesn't. It's just the nature of any relationship, right? Any nature of any relationship, right? Any nature of any relationship, right? Any relationship is going to have moments relationship is going to have moments relationship is going to have moments where you have to be more direct, where you have to be more direct, where you have to be more direct, sometimes you're working together, and sometimes you're working together, and sometimes you're working together, and sometimes there's a little bit more sometimes there's a little bit more sometimes there's a little bit more conflict. conflict. conflict. >> The world's >> The world's >> The world's opinion and thoughts about the US-Israel opinion and thoughts about the US-Israel opinion and thoughts about the US-Israel relationship has never been more widely relationship has never been more widely relationship has never been more widely discussed. discussed. discussed. >> I agree. >> I agree. >> I agree. >> I And I don't I almost I almost don't >> I And I don't I almost I almost don't >> I And I don't I almost I almost don't know why, but it's it seems to be the know why, but it's it seems to be the know why, but it's it seems to be the case that over [clears throat] the last, case that over [clears throat] the last, case that over [clears throat] the last, I'd say, 6 to 12 months, people are I'd say, 6 to 12 months, people are I'd say, 6 to 12 months, people are really now questioning, what is this really now questioning, what is this really now questioning, what is this relationship? And who is who is the relationship? And who is who is the relationship? And who is who is the dominant partner in the relationship? dominant partner in the relationship? dominant partner in the relationship? What for someone And just in super What for someone And just in super What for someone And just in super simple terms, cuz I don't really know a simple terms, cuz I don't really know a simple terms, cuz I don't really know a lot about this particular point. What is lot about this particular point. What is lot about this particular point. What is the relationship, and why and where did the relationship, and why and where did the relationship, and why and where did it come from? it come from? it come from? >> Well, [sighs] >> Well, [sighs] >> Well, [sighs] you know, I'm I'm hardly an expert in you know, I'm I'm hardly an expert in you know, I'm I'm hardly an expert in US-Israeli relations, right? But But let US-Israeli relations, right? But But let US-Israeli relations, right? But But let let me just say let me just say let me just say they're obviously they're obviously they're obviously in some ways the only democracy in the in some ways the only democracy in the in some ways the only democracy in the Middle East, okay? Middle East, okay? Middle East, okay? Uh very advanced economy, very Uh very advanced economy, very Uh very advanced economy, very high-skilled people, technological high-skilled people, technological high-skilled people, technological ingenuity. I mean, it's a country of 9 ingenuity. I mean, it's a country of 9 ingenuity. I mean, it's a country of 9 million people. They generate a lot of million people. They generate a lot of million people. They generate a lot of the world's inventions just from 9 the world's inventions just from 9 the world's inventions just from 9 million people. It's a very impressive million people. It's a very impressive million people. It's a very impressive country economically. They're also country economically. They're also country economically. They're also probably better at intelligence probably better at intelligence probably better at intelligence collection than any country in the collection than any country in the collection than any country in the world. So, they're again And And again, world. So, they're again And And again, world. So, they're again And And again, because they're an advanced economy, because they're an advanced economy, because they're an advanced economy, because, you know, their people, because, you know, their people, because, you know, their people, generally speaking, want to live in generally speaking, want to live in generally speaking, want to live in peace and harmony, just want to go to peace and harmony, just want to go to peace and harmony, just want to go to work and raise their kids, there are a work and raise their kids, there are a work and raise their kids, there are a lot of shared interests and a lot of lot of shared interests and a lot of lot of shared interests and a lot of shared objectives. And I think that, you shared objectives. And I think that, you shared objectives. And I think that, you know, over time, especially for example, know, over time, especially for example, know, over time, especially for example, when one of our biggest problems going when one of our biggest problems going when one of our biggest problems going back to, you know, the early 2000s was back to, you know, the early 2000s was back to, you know, the early 2000s was the rise of Islamic terrorism,

the rise of Islamic terrorism, the rise of Islamic terrorism, um Islamic radical terrorism, I should um Islamic radical terrorism, I should um Islamic radical terrorism, I should say, there was a sort of broad say, there was a sort of broad say, there was a sort of broad recognition that there's a lot for us to recognition that there's a lot for us to recognition that there's a lot for us to work on. But but again, even even if you work on. But but again, even even if you work on. But but again, even even if you go back to then, the early 2000s, go back to then, the early 2000s, go back to then, the early 2000s, very large alignment between Israeli very large alignment between Israeli very large alignment between Israeli interests and American interests. But interests and American interests. But interests and American interests. But even in like the early 2000s, the even in like the early 2000s, the even in like the early 2000s, the Israelis were much more worried about Israelis were much more worried about Israelis were much more worried about Iran than the United States was, right? Iran than the United States was, right? Iran than the United States was, right? We were much more worried about We were much more worried about We were much more worried about Al-Qaeda, like a different branch of Al-Qaeda, like a different branch of Al-Qaeda, like a different branch of Islamic terrorism. So even when we've Islamic terrorism. So even when we've Islamic terrorism. So even when we've been very aligned, we're just different been very aligned, we're just different been very aligned, we're just different countries that have different countries that have different countries that have different objectives. And you know, I will say objectives. And you know, I will say objectives. And you know, I will say having seen the president of the United having seen the president of the United having seen the president of the United States operate, I feel quite confident States operate, I feel quite confident States operate, I feel quite confident that, you know, they are the junior that, you know, they are the junior that, you know, they are the junior partner, we're the senior partner, we're partner, we're the senior partner, we're partner, we're the senior partner, we're the world superpower. That's the way the world superpower. That's the way the world superpower. That's the way that it works. But you know, again, that it works. But you know, again, that it works. But you know, again, sometimes it's it's like with the UK. I sometimes it's it's like with the UK. I sometimes it's it's like with the UK. I would say the UK is our closest ally, would say the UK is our closest ally, would say the UK is our closest ally, our oldest ally. I'm not just saying our oldest ally. I'm not just saying our oldest ally. I'm not just saying that cuz you're a Brit. Do you trust the that cuz you're a Brit. Do you trust the that cuz you're a Brit. Do you trust the UK? Uh again, I don't really trust UK? Uh again, I don't really trust UK? Uh again, I don't really trust anybody. But do I like Do I like a lot anybody. But do I like Do I like a lot anybody. But do I like Do I like a lot of Brits? Absolutely. Do I have a I of Brits? Absolutely. Do I have a I of Brits? Absolutely. Do I have a I mean, incredible fondness for the United mean, incredible fondness for the United mean, incredible fondness for the United Kingdom as a country and a culture? Kingdom as a country and a culture? Kingdom as a country and a culture? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I really like a lot of the people, And I really like a lot of the people, And I really like a lot of the people, even the Labour government, even though even the Labour government, even though even the Labour government, even though they're politically misaligned they're politically misaligned they're politically misaligned uh with with me and in the rest of the uh with with me and in the rest of the uh with with me and in the rest of the Trump administration. But, you know, Trump administration. But, you know, Trump administration. But, you know, like we have disagreements from time to like we have disagreements from time to like we have disagreements from time to time. So we work really well together.

time. So we work really well together. time. So we work really well together. And sometimes we have misaligned And sometimes we have misaligned And sometimes we have misaligned interests, and we have to pursue our interests, and we have to pursue our interests, and we have to pursue our interests in the best way we can. interests in the best way we can. interests in the best way we can. >> What does it >> What does it >> What does it And please do you tell me like What does And please do you tell me like What does And please do you tell me like What does Netanyahu want? Netanyahu want? Netanyahu want? Cuz I sit here with these experts and Cuz I sit here with these experts and Cuz I sit here with these experts and they say they want to overtake the whole they say they want to overtake the whole they say they want to overtake the whole of the Middle East, and they want to run of the Middle East, and they want to run of the Middle East, and they want to run the Middle [clears throat] East. the Middle [clears throat] East. the Middle [clears throat] East. What does he want? What does he want? What does he want? >> I don't know. I don't know. >> I don't know. I don't know. >> I don't know. I don't know. >> You don't [laughter] know? >> You don't [laughter] know? >> You don't [laughter] know? >> Well, I mean, I I I I I I don't I can't >> Well, I mean, I I I I I I don't I can't >> Well, I mean, I I I I I I don't I can't get in inside somebody's head. get in inside somebody's head. get in inside somebody's head. >> Have you asked them what they want? What >> Have you asked them what they want? What >> Have you asked them what they want? What do you think do you think do you think >> Well, I I think that in this particular >> Well, I I think that in this particular >> Well, I I think that in this particular operation, again, where interests were operation, again, where interests were operation, again, where interests were aligned is we wanted Iranian aligned is we wanted Iranian aligned is we wanted Iranian conventional military power to be much conventional military power to be much conventional military power to be much weaker, to be decimated. You know, the weaker, to be decimated. You know, the weaker, to be decimated. You know, the the Israelis shared that objective. Do I the Israelis shared that objective. Do I the Israelis shared that objective. Do I think that there are maybe I don't know think that there are maybe I don't know think that there are maybe I don't know if BB thinks this, but do I think there if BB thinks this, but do I think there if BB thinks this, but do I think there are people within Israeli society who are people within Israeli society who are people within Israeli society who would like to turn Iran into Libya? would like to turn Iran into Libya? would like to turn Iran into Libya? Basically a failed state with 90 million Basically a failed state with 90 million Basically a failed state with 90 million people? Probably, but I don't know that people? Probably, but I don't know that people? Probably, but I don't know that BB wants that. I've actually never had BB wants that. I've actually never had BB wants that. I've actually never had that conversation with him. It'd be an that conversation with him. It'd be an that conversation with him. It'd be an interesting conversation to have. I'll interesting conversation to have. I'll interesting conversation to have. I'll tell you right now, is Iran turning into tell you right now, is Iran turning into tell you right now, is Iran turning into a Persian Libya good for the United a Persian Libya good for the United a Persian Libya good for the United States of America? Absolutely not. And States of America? Absolutely not. And States of America? Absolutely not. And that's one of the reasons why the that's one of the reasons why the that's one of the reasons why the president has set us on this course of president has set us on this course of president has set us on this course of working on our interests, which is the working on our interests, which is the working on our interests, which is the elimination of the nuclear threat and a elimination of the nuclear threat and a elimination of the nuclear threat and a and a changed dynamic with the Iranians, and a changed dynamic with the Iranians, and a changed dynamic with the Iranians, which is very much on the table.

which is very much on the table. which is very much on the table. >> You run for Senate. >> You run for Senate. >> You run for Senate. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and you're [clears throat] >> Um and you're [clears throat] >> Um and you're [clears throat] successful. And this is really from what successful. And this is really from what successful. And this is really from what I could see from my research where you I could see from my research where you I could see from my research where you and Trump first and Trump first and Trump first uh made friends, I should say. uh made friends, I should say. uh made friends, I should say. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh before then you weren't friends. >> Uh before then you weren't friends. >> Uh before then you weren't friends. >> No, that's right. >> No, that's right. >> No, that's right. >> You were quite critical of Donald Trump >> You were quite critical of Donald Trump >> You were quite critical of Donald Trump before then. before then. before then. Um and you've been probably asked this a Um and you've been probably asked this a Um and you've been probably asked this a million times, but what I I actually million times, but what I I actually million times, but what I I actually didn't know this until literally today didn't know this until literally today didn't know this until literally today >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> that you I read the piece you'd written >> that you I read the piece you'd written >> that you I read the piece you'd written in The Atlantic where you criticized him in The Atlantic where you criticized him in The Atlantic where you criticized him for taking advantage of the struggling for taking advantage of the struggling for taking advantage of the struggling working working class. working working class. working working class. What Trump offers, this is your quote, What Trump offers, this is your quote, What Trump offers, this is your quote, is an easy escape from pain. To every is an easy escape from pain. To every is an easy escape from pain. To every complex problem he promises a simple complex problem he promises a simple complex problem he promises a simple solution. He can bring jobs back simply solution. He can bring jobs back simply solution. He can bring jobs back simply by punishing offshore companies into by punishing offshore companies into by punishing offshore companies into submission. As he told a New Hampshire submission. As he told a New Hampshire submission. As he told a New Hampshire crowd, folks are too similar with the crowd, folks are too similar with the crowd, folks are too similar with the opioid scourge. He can cure the opioid scourge. He can cure the opioid scourge. He can cure the addiction epidemic by building a Mexican addiction epidemic by building a Mexican addiction epidemic by building a Mexican wall and keeping the cartels out. He wall and keeping the cartels out. He wall and keeping the cartels out. He will spare the United States from will spare the United States from will spare the United States from humiliation and military defeat with humiliation and military defeat with humiliation and military defeat with indiscriminate bombing. It doesn't indiscriminate bombing. It doesn't indiscriminate bombing. It doesn't matter that no credible military leader matter that no credible military leader matter that no credible military leader has endorsed his plan. He never offers has endorsed his plan. He never offers has endorsed his plan. He never offers detail for those plans to work. Because detail for those plans to work. Because detail for those plans to work. Because Trump's Trump is cultural heroin. He Trump's Trump is cultural heroin. He Trump's Trump is cultural heroin. He makes some people feel better, but he makes some people feel better, but he makes some people feel better, but he cannot fix all that ails cannot fix all that ails cannot fix all that ails all that ails them and one day they'll all that ails them and one day they'll all that ails them and one day they'll realize it.

realize it. realize it. Very tough words Very tough words Very tough words >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> against Trump. >> against Trump. >> against Trump. >> Long time ago, but >> Long time ago, but >> Long time ago, but >> 2016 and 10 years ago. >> 2016 and 10 years ago. >> 2016 and 10 years ago. What changed? What changed? What changed? >> Well, let me let me pick up. First of >> Well, let me let me pick up. First of >> Well, let me let me pick up. First of all, all, all, I think you always have to be able to I think you always have to be able to I think you always have to be able to acknowledge when you're right and when acknowledge when you're right and when acknowledge when you're right and when you're wrong. you're wrong. you're wrong. And And And there was a lot I right about in 2016, there was a lot I right about in 2016, there was a lot I right about in 2016, but but just pick up on something. Can but but just pick up on something. Can but but just pick up on something. Can you read the line for me again where I you read the line for me again where I you read the line for me again where I talk about No Is it no credible military talk about No Is it no credible military talk about No Is it no credible military leader has endorsed these plans? leader has endorsed these plans? leader has endorsed these plans? >> Yeah, it says, "Um it doesn't matter >> Yeah, it says, "Um it doesn't matter >> Yeah, it says, "Um it doesn't matter that no credible military leader has that no credible military leader has that no credible military leader has endorsed his plan." endorsed his plan." endorsed his plan." >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, what I would say is I wrote that, I So, what I would say is I wrote that, I So, what I would say is I wrote that, I believed it when I wrote it, and reading believed it when I wrote it, and reading believed it when I wrote it, and reading it now, I'm almost embarrassed that I it now, I'm almost embarrassed that I it now, I'm almost embarrassed that I wrote it cuz it was so obviously absurd. wrote it cuz it was so obviously absurd. wrote it cuz it was so obviously absurd. In fact, the the the fact that Donald In fact, the the the fact that Donald In fact, the the the fact that Donald Trump was misaligned with the military Trump was misaligned with the military Trump was misaligned with the military experts and the military leadership of experts and the military leadership of experts and the military leadership of 2016 was a good thing, not a bad thing. 2016 was a good thing, not a bad thing. 2016 was a good thing, not a bad thing. Think about those military leaders. I Think about those military leaders. I Think about those military leaders. I mean, I have a lot of respect for the mean, I have a lot of respect for the mean, I have a lot of respect for the troops, the people who serve, the people troops, the people who serve, the people troops, the people who serve, the people who put on a uniform, but you could make who put on a uniform, but you could make who put on a uniform, but you could make a very credible argument that from the a very credible argument that from the a very credible argument that from the early '90s early '90s early '90s until until until you know, at least 2016, America hadn't you know, at least 2016, America hadn't you know, at least 2016, America hadn't won a war in 30 years.

won a war in 30 years. won a war in 30 years. Like there's a reason why Donald Trump Like there's a reason why Donald Trump Like there's a reason why Donald Trump mistrust mistrusted the military mistrust mistrusted the military mistrust mistrusted the military leadership, and he was right. And so leadership, and he was right. And so leadership, and he was right. And so much of what I think the president rec- much of what I think the president rec- much of what I think the president rec- represented at the time was a represented at the time was a represented at the time was a recognition that American institutions recognition that American institutions recognition that American institutions had become sclerotic and broken, had become sclerotic and broken, had become sclerotic and broken, and he was a weapon to break down those and he was a weapon to break down those and he was a weapon to break down those institutions. institutions. institutions. >> Your assessment of him is similar to the >> Your assessment of him is similar to the >> Your assessment of him is similar to the Democratic assessment of him. Your Democratic assessment of him. Your Democratic assessment of him. Your assessment of him back in 2016 is assessment of him back in 2016 is assessment of him back in 2016 is similar to the Democratic assessment of similar to the Democratic assessment of similar to the Democratic assessment of him. him. him. There was a private message between you There was a private message between you There was a private message between you and your roommate where you said he was and your roommate where you said he was and your roommate where you said he was either a cynical or America's either a cynical or America's either a cynical or America's Hitler. Hitler. Hitler. How do you go from that position How do you go from that position How do you go from that position to to to >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> vice president of the same person? What >> vice president of the same person? What >> vice president of the same person? What What is that journey? What is that journey? What is that journey? >> A crazy journey, man. But But again, I >> A crazy journey, man. But But again, I >> A crazy journey, man. But But again, I mean, mean, mean, it's it's it's You have to ask yourself, first of all, You have to ask yourself, first of all, You have to ask yourself, first of all, I thought Donald Trump would be a failed I thought Donald Trump would be a failed I thought Donald Trump would be a failed president if he got elected. president if he got elected. president if he got elected. He was not. He was not. He was not. I thought that America's institutions I thought that America's institutions I thought that America's institutions were fundamentally functioning. They were fundamentally functioning. They were fundamentally functioning. They were not. I thought that the military were not. I thought that the military were not. I thought that the military leaders who told us this about a war leaders who told us this about a war leaders who told us this about a war were the scientific experts who told us were the scientific experts who told us were the scientific experts who told us this other thing about a pandemic were this other thing about a pandemic were this other thing about a pandemic were fundamentally, maybe not always right, fundamentally, maybe not always right, fundamentally, maybe not always right, but fundamentally wise people who are but fundamentally wise people who are but fundamentally wise people who are mostly right. I was wrong.

mostly right. I was wrong. mostly right. I was wrong. >> What have you observed behind the scenes >> What have you observed behind the scenes >> What have you observed behind the scenes that that JD that that JD that that JD didn't see? So, in operation, when you didn't see? So, in operation, when you didn't see? So, in operation, when you see him making decisions, see him making decisions, see him making decisions, >> Yeah, so I mean, >> Yeah, so I mean, >> Yeah, so I mean, I I would have caveat this with with I I would have caveat this with with I I would have caveat this with with saying that, you know, I didn't know him saying that, you know, I didn't know him saying that, you know, I didn't know him well by the time, you know, I mean, I I well by the time, you know, I mean, I I well by the time, you know, I mean, I I voted for him in 2020. voted for him in 2020. voted for him in 2020. Obviously, you know, very very involved Obviously, you know, very very involved Obviously, you know, very very involved in the 2024 campaign well before I was in the 2024 campaign well before I was in the 2024 campaign well before I was ever his vice presidential nominee. ever his vice presidential nominee. ever his vice presidential nominee. I I had that change based purely on what I I had that change based purely on what I I had that change based purely on what I saw from the outside. It's not like I I saw from the outside. It's not like I I saw from the outside. It's not like I had insider knowledge about Donald had insider knowledge about Donald had insider knowledge about Donald Trump, and that's what caused me to Trump, and that's what caused me to Trump, and that's what caused me to change. Now, what I will say is that change. Now, what I will say is that change. Now, what I will say is that having the insider knowledge, one thing having the insider knowledge, one thing having the insider knowledge, one thing that that really mistakes or gets wrong that that really mistakes or gets wrong that that really mistakes or gets wrong that piece in The Atlantic, that's when that piece in The Atlantic, that's when that piece in The Atlantic, that's when that that that's where that piece was that that that's where that piece was that that that's where that piece was published, is that Donald Trump is much published, is that Donald Trump is much published, is that Donald Trump is much different as a human being than the different as a human being than the different as a human being than the media makes him out to be. He's very media makes him out to be. He's very media makes him out to be. He's very warm. He's a very like loving person to warm. He's a very like loving person to warm. He's a very like loving person to his kids, to his grandkids. He's his kids, to his grandkids. He's his kids, to his grandkids. He's incredibly generous. Like if you see incredibly generous. Like if you see incredibly generous. Like if you see Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Donald Trump, you know, in the Oval Office, it's like you know, in the Oval Office, it's like you know, in the Oval Office, it's like he has to give you a gift. Like he has he has to give you a gift. Like he has he has to give you a gift. Like he has to, whether it's, you know, a water to, whether it's, you know, a water to, whether it's, you know, a water bottle or a MAGA hat or a coin or a pin.

bottle or a MAGA hat or a coin or a pin. bottle or a MAGA hat or a coin or a pin. Like he he just he's one of these people Like he he just he's one of these people Like he he just he's one of these people who he really likes who he really likes who he really likes hospitality. He really likes making hospitality. He really likes making hospitality. He really likes making other people happy. I had no other people happy. I had no other people happy. I had no understanding of that from him from the understanding of that from him from the understanding of that from him from the outside. What I would see is, you know, outside. What I would see is, you know, outside. What I would see is, you know, clips of him arguing with a journalist, clips of him arguing with a journalist, clips of him arguing with a journalist, and that was it. And that gives you a and that was it. And that gives you a and that was it. And that gives you a very very one-dimensional view of a very very one-dimensional view of a very very one-dimensional view of a person. So, yeah, I definitely from the person. So, yeah, I definitely from the person. So, yeah, I definitely from the inside have seen a much much more inside have seen a much much more inside have seen a much much more multi-dimensional figure. The thing I multi-dimensional figure. The thing I multi-dimensional figure. The thing I say about about Donald Trump is I say about about Donald Trump is I say about about Donald Trump is I remember this in 2016, remember this in 2016, remember this in 2016, and in hindsight, it's just so so dumb. and in hindsight, it's just so so dumb. and in hindsight, it's just so so dumb. People would say that he was dumb or People would say that he was dumb or People would say that he was dumb or that he wasn't very smart. He's super that he wasn't very smart. He's super that he wasn't very smart. He's super smart. Like he reads a lot. He smart. Like he reads a lot. He smart. Like he reads a lot. He understands people at an instinctual understands people at an instinctual understands people at an instinctual level better than anybody that I've ever level better than anybody that I've ever level better than anybody that I've ever known, but he is a very very Like from a known, but he is a very very Like from a known, but he is a very very Like from a pure IQ perspective, he's a very smart pure IQ perspective, he's a very smart pure IQ perspective, he's a very smart person. And it's interesting that so person. And it's interesting that so person. And it's interesting that so many people like many people like many people like you know, if you give Donald Trump an IQ you know, if you give Donald Trump an IQ you know, if you give Donald Trump an IQ test with the other test with the other test with the other 45, 46 presidents that the United States 45, 46 presidents that the United States 45, 46 presidents that the United States has had, I guarantee he'd be either near has had, I guarantee he'd be either near has had, I guarantee he'd be either near the top or at the top. And the entire the top or at the top. And the entire the top or at the top. And the entire American media in 2016 had convinced me American media in 2016 had convinced me American media in 2016 had convinced me at least that he was not a smart person.

at least that he was not a smart person. at least that he was not a smart person. >> And by 2022, he's endorsed you and you >> And by 2022, he's endorsed you and you >> And by 2022, he's endorsed you and you you win your race in the US Senate. you win your race in the US Senate. you win your race in the US Senate. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And then sometime after then, >> And then sometime after then, >> And then sometime after then, [clears throat] um at some point you're [clears throat] um at some point you're [clears throat] um at some point you're going to get introduced to him and he's going to get introduced to him and he's going to get introduced to him and he's going to ask you to be the vice going to ask you to be the vice going to ask you to be the vice president of the United States. president of the United States. president of the United States. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Bring me If I was a fly on the wall, was >> Bring me If I was a fly on the wall, was >> Bring me If I was a fly on the wall, was that a phone call or was it a meeting? that a phone call or was it a meeting? that a phone call or was it a meeting? >> Well, there had been meetings before >> Well, there had been meetings before >> Well, there had been meetings before that. Just generally at that point, I that. Just generally at that point, I that. Just generally at that point, I was involved in his election campaign. I was involved in his election campaign. I was involved in his election campaign. I was one of the first, maybe the very was one of the first, maybe the very was one of the first, maybe the very first senators to endorse him in 2023, I first senators to endorse him in 2023, I first senators to endorse him in 2023, I believe is actually when I endorsed him believe is actually when I endorsed him believe is actually when I endorsed him very early on in 2023. When again, I very early on in 2023. When again, I very early on in 2023. When again, I thought he would win, but the thought he would win, but the thought he would win, but the conventional wisdom was that he would conventional wisdom was that he would conventional wisdom was that he would not win even the Republican nomination, not win even the Republican nomination, not win even the Republican nomination, that his political career was over. that his political career was over. that his political career was over. So, I endorsed him very early. He and I So, I endorsed him very early. He and I So, I endorsed him very early. He and I became quite close over over that became quite close over over that became quite close over over that period. We talked a lot about issues. He period. We talked a lot about issues. He period. We talked a lot about issues. He gave me some advice on various bills gave me some advice on various bills gave me some advice on various bills that I was working on in the Senate. We that I was working on in the Senate. We that I was working on in the Senate. We just became pretty close. He and I just became pretty close. He and I just became pretty close. He and I worked very closely together over there worked very closely together over there worked very closely together over there was a train derailment in East was a train derailment in East was a train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio. And he and I became Palestine, Ohio. And he and I became Palestine, Ohio. And he and I became quite quite close over that. So, we just quite quite close over that. So, we just quite quite close over that. So, we just sort of developed a relationship. We sort of developed a relationship. We sort of developed a relationship. We were friendly and then we were closer were friendly and then we were closer were friendly and then we were closer and then he was sort of, you know, a and then he was sort of, you know, a and then he was sort of, you know, a person that I really looked to in person that I really looked to in person that I really looked to in politics. And then the 2024 campaign politics. And then the 2024 campaign politics. And then the 2024 campaign really started heating up and there were really started heating up and there were really started heating up and there were all these rumors about possibly me being all these rumors about possibly me being all these rumors about possibly me being his running mate. And you know, he and I his running mate. And you know, he and I his running mate. And you know, he and I didn't ever have that conversation like didn't ever have that conversation like didn't ever have that conversation like about being his running mate until like about being his running mate until like about being his running mate until like a day or two before he picked me.

a day or two before he picked me. a day or two before he picked me. And that was an in-person conversation. And that was an in-person conversation. And that was an in-person conversation. It was actually the morning he was shot It was actually the morning he was shot It was actually the morning he was shot in person. in person. in person. He goes to that rally in Pennsylvania. He goes to that rally in Pennsylvania. He goes to that rally in Pennsylvania. He gets shot. He gets shot. He gets shot. Um obviously he's okay, thank God. And Um obviously he's okay, thank God. And Um obviously he's okay, thank God. And then 2 days later he asked me to be the then 2 days later he asked me to be the then 2 days later he asked me to be the nominee. nominee. nominee. >> So when when were you when he asked you? >> So when when were you when he asked you? >> So when when were you when he asked you? >> Uh I just landed in Milwaukee for the >> Uh I just landed in Milwaukee for the >> Uh I just landed in Milwaukee for the RNC convention. It was There's like a RNC convention. It was There's like a RNC convention. It was There's like a deadline to it because the way the deadline to it because the way the deadline to it because the way the convention works is you have to be convention works is you have to be convention works is you have to be formally nominated by the delegates on formally nominated by the delegates on formally nominated by the delegates on Monday at like 3:00 or 4:00. Monday at like 3:00 or 4:00. Monday at like 3:00 or 4:00. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it was 11:00. I had just arrived in >> And it was 11:00. I had just arrived in >> And it was 11:00. I had just arrived in Milwaukee. I had no idea what was going Milwaukee. I had no idea what was going Milwaukee. I had no idea what was going on. And I thought I had a good chance, on. And I thought I had a good chance, on. And I thought I had a good chance, but I wasn't sure. And he called me. I but I wasn't sure. And he called me. I but I wasn't sure. And he called me. I didn't answer the phone. didn't answer the phone. didn't answer the phone. Uh I think that it was like It was just Uh I think that it was like It was just Uh I think that it was like It was just It was one of those things where I was It was one of those things where I was It was one of those things where I was getting so many phone calls and the call getting so many phone calls and the call getting so many phone calls and the call went straight to voicemail. Like it went straight to voicemail. Like it went straight to voicemail. Like it never rang. And so I get a text message never rang. And so I get a text message never rang. And so I get a text message from a friend of mine who's now the from a friend of mine who's now the from a friend of mine who's now the White House Chief of Staff. Said, "You White House Chief of Staff. Said, "You White House Chief of Staff. Said, "You just missed a very important phone just missed a very important phone just missed a very important phone call." I called him back. I said, call." I called him back. I said, call." I called him back. I said, "What's up, Mr. President?" He said, "What's up, Mr. President?" He said, "What's up, Mr. President?" He said, "J.D., you have just missed a very "J.D., you have just missed a very "J.D., you have just missed a very important phone call. I'm going to have important phone call. I'm going to have important phone call. I'm going to have to pick somebody else now."

to pick somebody else now." to pick somebody else now." >> [laughter] >> Uh but then he asked me and the rest is >> Uh but then he asked me and the rest is history, man. history, man. history, man. >> For the last couple of years I've been >> For the last couple of years I've been >> For the last couple of years I've been working on something that I realized working on something that I realized working on something that I realized every podcaster listening to this, but every podcaster listening to this, but every podcaster listening to this, but actually probably every creator actually probably every creator actually probably every creator listening to this might just need. listening to this might just need. listening to this might just need. Podcasting is difficult for many Podcasting is difficult for many Podcasting is difficult for many reasons, and one of them is that these reasons, and one of them is that these reasons, and one of them is that these hosting platforms don't give you much hosting platforms don't give you much hosting platforms don't give you much information, and also because they're so information, and also because they're so information, and also because they're so fragmented, you kind of have to go fragmented, you kind of have to go fragmented, you kind of have to go through every single platform uploading through every single platform uploading through every single platform uploading it to YouTube and then taking the same it to YouTube and then taking the same it to YouTube and then taking the same big old video file and uploading it to big old video file and uploading it to big old video file and uploading it to Spotify's platform. It takes huge Spotify's platform. It takes huge Spotify's platform. It takes huge amounts of time, and that friction means amounts of time, and that friction means amounts of time, and that friction means most of us don't do it. That is the most of us don't do it. That is the most of us don't do it. That is the problem we set out to solve, and so we problem we set out to solve, and so we problem we set out to solve, and so we built something called Flight School, built something called Flight School, built something called Flight School, which you can find at flightschool.com. which you can find at flightschool.com. which you can find at flightschool.com. And today Flight School is also one of And today Flight School is also one of And today Flight School is also one of our show sponsors, and some of the our show sponsors, and some of the our show sponsors, and some of the world's biggest podcasters are now using world's biggest podcasters are now using world's biggest podcasters are now using our platform to run their shows because our platform to run their shows because our platform to run their shows because it gives you an edge. It saves you time. it gives you an edge. It saves you time. it gives you an edge. It saves you time. It gives you analytics most people won't It gives you analytics most people won't It gives you analytics most people won't typically get. It allows you to use AI typically get. It allows you to use AI typically get. It allows you to use AI to be more informed on your show, and it to be more informed on your show, and it to be more informed on your show, and it has growth tools that other hosting has growth tools that other hosting has growth tools that other hosting platforms don't have. So podcasters that platforms don't have. So podcasters that platforms don't have. So podcasters that are using Flight Cast have this unfair are using Flight Cast have this unfair are using Flight Cast have this unfair advantage. So go to flightcast.com/doac advantage. So go to flightcast.com/doac advantage. So go to flightcast.com/doac now.

now. now. >> Did you know at that time what you were >> Did you know at that time what you were >> Did you know at that time what you were signing up for? signing up for? signing up for? >> No, I had no idea. >> No, I had no idea. >> No, I had no idea. No idea. No idea. No idea. >> So why did you want to do it? And you >> So why did you want to do it? And you >> So why did you want to do it? And you you know, people say I represent my you know, people say I represent my you know, people say I represent my country, but why why it's it's a lot. country, but why why it's it's a lot. country, but why why it's it's a lot. It's a big cost to your family. When It's a big cost to your family. When It's a big cost to your family. When when I when I arrived here today, I saw when I when I arrived here today, I saw when I when I arrived here today, I saw I don't know if it felt like 50 men with I don't know if it felt like 50 men with I don't know if it felt like 50 men with guns. guns. guns. >> Probably. >> Probably. >> Probably. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They've they've scoped out the whole >> They've they've scoped out the whole >> They've they've scoped out the whole building. They've you know, they've been building. They've you know, they've been building. They've you know, they've been searching this for a couple of days and searching this for a couple of days and searching this for a couple of days and I thought wow, like how does I thought wow, like how does I thought wow, like how does how does the Vice President live life how does the Vice President live life how does the Vice President live life with his his family when you have this with his his family when you have this with his his family when you have this going everywhere with you? Like did you going everywhere with you? Like did you going everywhere with you? Like did you know what you were signing up for? know what you were signing up for? know what you were signing up for? >> No, no I didn't. I mean I you know, you >> No, no I didn't. I mean I you know, you >> No, no I didn't. I mean I you know, you sign up because you want to make a sign up because you want to make a sign up because you want to make a difference and because you know, I was difference and because you know, I was difference and because you know, I was already a senator. So I'm already in the already a senator. So I'm already in the already a senator. So I'm already in the politics business. I might as well try politics business. I might as well try politics business. I might as well try to serve at the highest level possible. to serve at the highest level possible. to serve at the highest level possible. You know, you think you could help, You know, you think you could help, You know, you think you could help, right? Part of it being the VP is you right? Part of it being the VP is you right? Part of it being the VP is you help on the campaign trail. You you help on the campaign trail. You you help on the campaign trail. You you know, six months really the part of the know, six months really the part of the know, six months really the part of the campaign that is the most intense is the campaign that is the most intense is the campaign that is the most intense is the part where you're sort of riding uh side part where you're sort of riding uh side part where you're sort of riding uh side saddle with uh with the presidential saddle with uh with the presidential saddle with uh with the presidential nominee. So it's like all these things nominee. So it's like all these things nominee. So it's like all these things for why people get into politics in the for why people get into politics in the for why people get into politics in the first place. But no, I mean look, I I first place. But no, I mean look, I I first place. But no, I mean look, I I I'm not a whiner and I would never I'm not a whiner and I would never I'm not a whiner and I would never complain about this, but if I was a complain about this, but if I was a complain about this, but if I was a whiner, the one thing I would say is it whiner, the one thing I would say is it whiner, the one thing I would say is it was very hard on the kids. In was very hard on the kids. In was very hard on the kids. In particular, our oldest son. And I just particular, our oldest son. And I just particular, our oldest son. And I just had no idea what I was getting myself had no idea what I was getting myself had no idea what I was getting myself into. I mean, okay, so the president, he into. I mean, okay, so the president, he into. I mean, okay, so the president, he and I had this brief phone conversation.

and I had this brief phone conversation. and I had this brief phone conversation. You know, my kid is talking to me about You know, my kid is talking to me about You know, my kid is talking to me about Pokémon cards at the Hotel Milwaukee. Pokémon cards at the Hotel Milwaukee. Pokémon cards at the Hotel Milwaukee. We're still like unpacking our suitcase. We're still like unpacking our suitcase. We're still like unpacking our suitcase. And it's like okay, I'm now the VP And it's like okay, I'm now the VP And it's like okay, I'm now the VP nominee. I have to get on my suit. I nominee. I have to get on my suit. I nominee. I have to get on my suit. I have to get prepared to be nominated have to get prepared to be nominated have to get prepared to be nominated like three or four hours later and all like three or four hours later and all like three or four hours later and all these thoughts are swirling through my these thoughts are swirling through my these thoughts are swirling through my head. Knock at the door and it's the head. Knock at the door and it's the head. Knock at the door and it's the Secret Service and it's like all right, Secret Service and it's like all right, Secret Service and it's like all right, you're under our protection now. We have you're under our protection now. We have you're under our protection now. We have to move your entire family to the to move your entire family to the to move your entire family to the president's hotel so that you're in the president's hotel so that you're in the president's hotel so that you're in the same protective bubble. same protective bubble. same protective bubble. And all of a sudden, I just realized my And all of a sudden, I just realized my And all of a sudden, I just realized my life is totally different now. It'll life is totally different now. It'll life is totally different now. It'll never be the same. I I was okay with never be the same. I I was okay with never be the same. I I was okay with that. You know, like you you sort of you that. You know, like you you sort of you that. You know, like you you sort of you just get used to it. I'm grown man, but just get used to it. I'm grown man, but just get used to it. I'm grown man, but it was very hard on you know, my my it was very hard on you know, my my it was very hard on you know, my my oldest boy who's 9 years old now. oldest boy who's 9 years old now. oldest boy who's 9 years old now. >> He made a comment, didn't he? >> He made a comment, didn't he? >> He made a comment, didn't he? >> Oh, yeah, he hated it. He he hated the >> Oh, yeah, he hated it. He he hated the >> Oh, yeah, he hated it. He he hated the attention. He hated how people treated attention. He hated how people treated attention. He hated how people treated him differently. He was like one of him differently. He was like one of him differently. He was like one of these things where you know, he would go these things where you know, he would go these things where you know, he would go to a school and people would treat him to a school and people would treat him to a school and people would treat him like he was special and he just wanted like he was special and he just wanted like he was special and he just wanted to be a normal kid. And I felt guilty I to be a normal kid. And I felt guilty I to be a normal kid. And I felt guilty I felt really guilty about that. And I felt really guilty about that. And I felt really guilty about that. And I felt this sort of sense like, oh my God, felt this sort of sense like, oh my God, felt this sort of sense like, oh my God, I've conscripted this kid into this I've conscripted this kid into this I've conscripted this kid into this life. I had no idea what he was he was life. I had no idea what he was he was life. I had no idea what he was he was what I was signing him up for. He didn't what I was signing him up for. He didn't what I was signing him up for. He didn't sign up for it. I signed him up for it.

sign up for it. I signed him up for it. sign up for it. I signed him up for it. And that was pretty tough. And that was pretty tough. And that was pretty tough. >> Sometimes I feel like I ruined his life >> Sometimes I feel like I ruined his life >> Sometimes I feel like I ruined his life without even asking him. You wrote that without even asking him. You wrote that without even asking him. You wrote that in your new book page 198. in your new book page 198. in your new book page 198. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> In reference to your 7-year-old son. >> In reference to your 7-year-old son. >> In reference to your 7-year-old son. Sometimes I feel like I ruined his life Sometimes I feel like I ruined his life Sometimes I feel like I ruined his life without even asking him. without even asking him. without even asking him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's how I that's how Yeah, and that's that's how I that's how Yeah, and that's that's how I that's how I felt. I mean, I I I think that I've I felt. I mean, I I I think that I've I felt. I mean, I I I think that I've I've gained certainly some perspective I've gained certainly some perspective I've gained certainly some perspective about it. about it. about it. You know, one of the things we've been You know, one of the things we've been You know, one of the things we've been quite good at is just finding quite good at is just finding quite good at is just finding communities where he's more isolated communities where he's more isolated communities where he's more isolated from all the attention and all the from all the attention and all the from all the attention and all the pressures of it. You know, we have a pressures of it. You know, we have a pressures of it. You know, we have a very very good school community for him, very very good school community for him, very very good school community for him, a a Christian school that he goes to and a a Christian school that he goes to and a a Christian school that he goes to and he loves. There's also by the way a flip he loves. There's also by the way a flip he loves. There's also by the way a flip side is you know, kids as you may know, side is you know, kids as you may know, side is you know, kids as you may know, you realize how much nature matters more you realize how much nature matters more you realize how much nature matters more than nurture. You know, our oldest boy than nurture. You know, our oldest boy than nurture. You know, our oldest boy is an introvert. Um our 6-year-old is a is an introvert. Um our 6-year-old is a is an introvert. Um our 6-year-old is a little bit more like me. He's a bit of little bit more like me. He's a bit of little bit more like me. He's a bit of an extrovert. He loves it. And so you an extrovert. He loves it. And so you an extrovert. He loves it. And so you you kind of have to balance the way that you kind of have to balance the way that you kind of have to balance the way that it affects the kids, but you know, I it affects the kids, but you know, I it affects the kids, but you know, I don't feel like I've ruined my don't feel like I've ruined my don't feel like I've ruined my 9-year-old's life anymore, but I 9-year-old's life anymore, but I 9-year-old's life anymore, but I certainly at that time I felt extremely certainly at that time I felt extremely certainly at that time I felt extremely guilty about what I'd signed him up for.

guilty about what I'd signed him up for. guilty about what I'd signed him up for. >> And then you need but communion you say >> And then you need but communion you say >> And then you need but communion you say that he you quote him and say that he that he you quote him and say that he that he you quote him and say that he said, "Dad, I just want every everyone said, "Dad, I just want every everyone said, "Dad, I just want every everyone to go back to treating us like they used to go back to treating us like they used to go back to treating us like they used to." to." to." >> Yes. That's right. >> Yes. That's right. >> Yes. That's right. >> Are these Are these things hard to hear? >> Are these Are these things hard to hear? >> Are these Are these things hard to hear? Like Is it hard Like Is it hard Like Is it hard >> course, man. Of course. I mean, you you >> course, man. Of course. I mean, you you >> course, man. Of course. I mean, you you know know know >> Do you have kids? >> Do you have kids? >> Do you have kids? >> Not yet. We're trying. >> Not yet. We're trying. >> Not yet. We're trying. >> Yeah, yeah. Good for you. Like, you >> Yeah, yeah. Good for you. Like, you >> Yeah, yeah. Good for you. Like, you know, my my prayers for that endeavor, know, my my prayers for that endeavor, know, my my prayers for that endeavor, but but but >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I I think your kids have an emotional effect on your kids have an emotional effect on you that is just you that is just you that is just totally profound and revelatory. totally profound and revelatory. totally profound and revelatory. And yeah, man, when when your son tells And yeah, man, when when your son tells And yeah, man, when when your son tells you that he wants something that you can you that he wants something that you can you that he wants something that you can no longer provide him, that's a very, no longer provide him, that's a very, no longer provide him, that's a very, very tough thing. Now, the flip side of very tough thing. Now, the flip side of very tough thing. Now, the flip side of it is it is it is and you can say this is a and you can say this is a and you can say this is a rationalization, but I think it's true. rationalization, but I think it's true. rationalization, but I think it's true. The flip side is there are a lot of The flip side is there are a lot of The flip side is there are a lot of blessings that come along with this blessings that come along with this blessings that come along with this life. life. life. And, you know, I've talked to him a lot And, you know, I've talked to him a lot And, you know, I've talked to him a lot about this. I actually, you know, I about this. I actually, you know, I about this. I actually, you know, I write this in the book that Charlie Kirk write this in the book that Charlie Kirk write this in the book that Charlie Kirk was probably the person who was most was probably the person who was most was probably the person who was most influential in helping me think through influential in helping me think through influential in helping me think through this conversation is this conversation is this conversation is you know, don't try to pretend that it's you know, don't try to pretend that it's you know, don't try to pretend that it's not a sacrifice to him. Like, I I you not a sacrifice to him. Like, I I you not a sacrifice to him. Like, I I you know, don't pretend that you haven't know, don't pretend that you haven't know, don't pretend that you haven't signed him up for something that has signed him up for something that has signed him up for something that has changed his life. You have. But, I try changed his life. You have. But, I try changed his life. You have. But, I try to talk to him about well, there are to talk to him about well, there are to talk to him about well, there are benefits, too. You've gotten to see the benefits, too. You've gotten to see the benefits, too. You've gotten to see the world. You've gotten to see the country world. You've gotten to see the country world. You've gotten to see the country in a in a way that no kid has ever in a in a way that no kid has ever in a in a way that no kid has ever gotten to see it. And we get to live in gotten to see it. And we get to live in gotten to see it. And we get to live in this cool house. I live in the Naval this cool house. I live in the Naval this cool house. I live in the Naval Observatory here in Washington, D.C. We Observatory here in Washington, D.C. We Observatory here in Washington, D.C. We would not get to do that if I was not would not get to do that if I was not would not get to do that if I was not the Vice President. So, what I've I've the Vice President. So, what I've I've the Vice President. So, what I've I've I've learned to do with him is not to I've learned to do with him is not to I've learned to do with him is not to minimize the negative, but to try to minimize the negative, but to try to minimize the negative, but to try to contextualize it, but also to try to

contextualize it, but also to try to contextualize it, but also to try to emphasize the positive. And it's funny, emphasize the positive. And it's funny, emphasize the positive. And it's funny, you know, what I I asked him this you know, what I I asked him this you know, what I I asked him this probably about a year ago. I said, "Are probably about a year ago. I said, "Are probably about a year ago. I said, "Are Are Are you still unhappy that I became Are Are you still unhappy that I became Are Are you still unhappy that I became the Vice President?" This is probably the Vice President?" This is probably the Vice President?" This is probably four or five months into it. He said, four or five months into it. He said, four or five months into it. He said, "Absolutely." I asked him that question "Absolutely." I asked him that question "Absolutely." I asked him that question recently, and he said, "I actually it's recently, and he said, "I actually it's recently, and he said, "I actually it's pretty good." pretty good." pretty good." So, kids adjust. So, kids adjust. So, kids adjust. You know, lives change. You figure out a You know, lives change. You figure out a You know, lives change. You figure out a routine for the kids. But, I also think routine for the kids. But, I also think routine for the kids. But, I also think that, you know, that that guilt that, you know, that that guilt that, you know, that that guilt motivated certain conduct. Would we have motivated certain conduct. Would we have motivated certain conduct. Would we have built the life that we have around him built the life that we have around him built the life that we have around him were it not for this recognition that we were it not for this recognition that we were it not for this recognition that we had caused this change and this had caused this change and this had caused this change and this disruption? No. So, you take the good disruption? No. So, you take the good disruption? No. So, you take the good with the bad. You accept that you've with the bad. You accept that you've with the bad. You accept that you've caused some problems, but you also caused some problems, but you also caused some problems, but you also accept that you can make things better. accept that you can make things better. accept that you can make things better. >> Lovely photo here of your >> Lovely photo here of your >> Lovely photo here of your your wife is good. your wife is good. your wife is good. >> I love this photo. I think she looks >> I love this photo. I think she looks >> I love this photo. I think she looks beautiful. beautiful. beautiful. This is actually the day, or at least This is actually the day, or at least This is actually the day, or at least the weekend that I met her mom. We were the weekend that I met her mom. We were the weekend that I met her mom. We were This is at the High Line in Brooklyn. This is at the High Line in Brooklyn. This is at the High Line in Brooklyn. Have you ever been to the Not Not in Have you ever been to the Not Not in Have you ever been to the Not Not in Brooklyn, in South Manhattan. Brooklyn, in South Manhattan. Brooklyn, in South Manhattan. >> Oh, the High Line. Yeah, I know the >> Oh, the High Line. Yeah, I know the >> Oh, the High Line. Yeah, I know the park. It's park. It's park. It's >> Yeah, it's basically travels a long way >> Yeah, it's basically travels a long way >> Yeah, it's basically travels a long way up South Manhattan. up South Manhattan. up South Manhattan. There's this little observation deck There's this little observation deck There's this little observation deck where we're sitting there taking a where we're sitting there taking a where we're sitting there taking a photo. And, you know, that that first photo. And, you know, that that first photo. And, you know, that that first summer we were together we started summer we were together we started summer we were together we started dating in March of 2011.

dating in March of 2011. dating in March of 2011. And so, I was doing a research assistant And so, I was doing a research assistant And so, I was doing a research assistant thing in New Haven, Connecticut, about thing in New Haven, Connecticut, about thing in New Haven, Connecticut, about an hour and a half train ride. She was an hour and a half train ride. She was an hour and a half train ride. She was in New York City. in New York City. in New York City. And, um, And, um, And, um, you know, you know, you know, it was in some ways like a metaphor for it was in some ways like a metaphor for it was in some ways like a metaphor for our relationship because I found New our relationship because I found New our relationship because I found New York just this totally intimidating York just this totally intimidating York just this totally intimidating place. I didn't know how to ride the place. I didn't know how to ride the place. I didn't know how to ride the subway. I didn't even know how to like subway. I didn't even know how to like subway. I didn't even know how to like buy a subway card to get on the subway. buy a subway card to get on the subway. buy a subway card to get on the subway. But, I was just because I was in love But, I was just because I was in love But, I was just because I was in love with her, I went down there every chance with her, I went down there every chance with her, I went down there every chance I could get. We spent every moment You I could get. We spent every moment You I could get. We spent every moment You know, you know, like when you when know, you know, like when you when know, you know, like when you when you're when you're newly in love with you're when you're newly in love with you're when you're newly in love with somebody, it's just like an obsession. somebody, it's just like an obsession. somebody, it's just like an obsession. And, we sort of explored New York City And, we sort of explored New York City And, we sort of explored New York City together as this young couple this together as this young couple this together as this young couple this summer. And, that was the day that I met summer. And, that was the day that I met summer. And, that was the day that I met her mom. And, I passed the test because her mom. And, I passed the test because her mom. And, I passed the test because here I am. here I am. here I am. >> What surprised her most about you >> What surprised her most about you >> What surprised her most about you becoming the Vice President? becoming the Vice President? becoming the Vice President? What What What didn't she expect? What What What didn't she expect? What What What didn't she expect? >> She doesn't get surprised by much. So, >> She doesn't get surprised by much. So, >> She doesn't get surprised by much. So, that's actually a very, very hard that's actually a very, very hard that's actually a very, very hard question. I do think the Secret Service question. I do think the Secret Service question. I do think the Secret Service protection surprised her, too. The way protection surprised her, too. The way protection surprised her, too. The way that it changes your life. Let me give that it changes your life. Let me give that it changes your life. Let me give you an example. So, you an example. So, you an example. So, you know, we went to Rome you know, we went to Rome you know, we went to Rome for [clears throat] for [clears throat] for [clears throat] the Pope's inaugural mass, the new Pope, the Pope's inaugural mass, the new Pope, the Pope's inaugural mass, the new Pope, the American Pope.

the American Pope. the American Pope. And, like my favorite thing to do in the And, like my favorite thing to do in the And, like my favorite thing to do in the world, like if you said, "I'll give you world, like if you said, "I'll give you world, like if you said, "I'll give you 2 hours. You can do whatever you want." 2 hours. You can do whatever you want." 2 hours. You can do whatever you want." What I would do is I would go to some What I would do is I would go to some What I would do is I would go to some place, whether in the country or in a place, whether in the country or in a place, whether in the country or in a big city, and I would just take a walk big city, and I would just take a walk big city, and I would just take a walk with Usha. Like that's that that is my with Usha. Like that's that that is my with Usha. Like that's that that is my ultimate way to like vacation or relax. ultimate way to like vacation or relax. ultimate way to like vacation or relax. And, you know, we try to take a walk in And, you know, we try to take a walk in And, you know, we try to take a walk in Rome and it was like, you know, Rome and it was like, you know, Rome and it was like, you know, SEAL Team 6 had just descended upon SEAL Team 6 had just descended upon SEAL Team 6 had just descended upon Rome. They were shutting down every Rome. They were shutting down every Rome. They were shutting down every traffic intersection. There was a traffic intersection. There was a traffic intersection. There was a helicopter flying overhead. helicopter flying overhead. helicopter flying overhead. And just that I think that's surprising And just that I think that's surprising And just that I think that's surprising to her how much the security protocols to her how much the security protocols to her how much the security protocols have changed just the way that, you have changed just the way that, you have changed just the way that, you know, we we do things like take a walk know, we we do things like take a walk know, we we do things like take a walk together. together. together. >> Can you make that decision still >> Can you make that decision still >> Can you make that decision still yourself? Could you could you yourself? Could you could you yourself? Could you could you [clears throat] say to all these Secret [clears throat] say to all these Secret [clears throat] say to all these Secret Service people there's none Okay, I Service people there's none Okay, I Service people there's none Okay, I can't see any Secret Service at the can't see any Secret Service at the can't see any Secret Service at the moment but I know they're behind that moment but I know they're behind that moment but I know they're behind that curtain. curtain. curtain. >> They're all behind the curtain. >> They're all behind the curtain. >> They're all behind the curtain. [laughter] Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> And they're they're everywhere. Yeah, >> And they're they're everywhere. Yeah, >> And they're they're everywhere. Yeah, they're outside. They're everywhere. they're outside. They're everywhere. they're outside. They're everywhere. They're probably on the roof. But can They're probably on the roof. But can They're probably on the roof. But can you just Are you the one that still gets you just Are you the one that still gets you just Are you the one that still gets to make the call of of what you wanted to make the call of of what you wanted to make the call of of what you wanted to do? So could you say listen, I I want to do? So could you say listen, I I want to do? So could you say listen, I I want to walk down the street to Walmart? to walk down the street to Walmart? to walk down the street to Walmart? >> There are actually like statutory >> There are actually like statutory >> There are actually like statutory prohibitions. Like they they have legal prohibitions. Like they they have legal prohibitions. Like they they have legal obligations in order to protect me. They obligations in order to protect me. They obligations in order to protect me. They are obviously great people, amazing are obviously great people, amazing are obviously great people, amazing people and we found accommodation like people and we found accommodation like people and we found accommodation like we found a way of taking a walk without we found a way of taking a walk without we found a way of taking a walk without disrupting everybody, right? But it's disrupting everybody, right? But it's disrupting everybody, right? But it's taken a little bit of work and a little taken a little bit of work and a little taken a little bit of work and a little bit of practice and the the biggest bit of practice and the the biggest bit of practice and the the biggest change is just again, it's not that you change is just again, it's not that you change is just again, it's not that you can't take a walk. It's that the basic can't take a walk. It's that the basic can't take a walk. It's that the basic protocol, the thing that they've gotten protocol, the thing that they've gotten protocol, the thing that they've gotten used to is much different and more used to is much different and more used to is much different and more misaligned with the way that we want to misaligned with the way that we want to misaligned with the way that we want to live our lives. So we figured it out.

live our lives. So we figured it out. live our lives. So we figured it out. Like we've gotten things to a good place Like we've gotten things to a good place Like we've gotten things to a good place but in the in the in the first instance, but in the in the in the first instance, but in the in the in the first instance, man, it was crazy. man, it was crazy. man, it was crazy. >> I I just can't imagine. It was actually >> I I just can't imagine. It was actually >> I I just can't imagine. It was actually getting here today. Like you hear about getting here today. Like you hear about getting here today. Like you hear about Secret Service but when you as someone Secret Service but when you as someone Secret Service but when you as someone like me who I was here yesterday so like me who I was here yesterday so like me who I was here yesterday so making my way into this building today making my way into this building today making my way into this building today which is like our studio. Yeah. I can which is like our studio. Yeah. I can which is like our studio. Yeah. I can believe that I was being tapped down, believe that I was being tapped down, believe that I was being tapped down, pocket checked. Yeah, yeah. People were pocket checked. Yeah, yeah. People were pocket checked. Yeah, yeah. People were handing me stuff, keep this on. handing me stuff, keep this on. handing me stuff, keep this on. Uh I went downstairs to the toilet in Uh I went downstairs to the toilet in Uh I went downstairs to the toilet in the basement. There was a guy down there the basement. There was a guy down there the basement. There was a guy down there with a gun. I was like with a gun. I was like with a gun. I was like I was like there was a guy outside my I was like there was a guy outside my I was like there was a guy outside my door with a gun. The guns got I was like door with a gun. The guns got I was like door with a gun. The guns got I was like wow, wow, wow, >> You've never been safer than you are >> You've never been safer than you are >> You've never been safer than you are right now. right now. right now. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um you've written this new >> Yeah. Yeah. Um you've written this new >> Yeah. Yeah. Um you've written this new book called Communion book called Communion book called Communion >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> which is about it's I mean the subtitle >> which is about it's I mean the subtitle >> which is about it's I mean the subtitle is finding my way back to faith. is finding my way back to faith. is finding my way back to faith. Back to faith. Back to faith. Back to faith. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's right. >> So, for your 30s, you you you became >> So, for your 30s, you you you became >> So, for your 30s, you you you became atheist? atheist? atheist? In your In your early In your late 20s? In your In your early In your late 20s? In your In your early In your late 20s? >> Yeah, it was in my 20s. Even in Yeah, in >> Yeah, it was in my 20s. Even in Yeah, in >> Yeah, it was in my 20s. Even in Yeah, in my early 20s. So, I was raised in an my early 20s. So, I was raised in an my early 20s. So, I was raised in an evangelical household. Very evangelical household. Very evangelical household. Very conservative, conservative, conservative, you know, very evangelical Christianity. you know, very evangelical Christianity. you know, very evangelical Christianity. My grandmother was one of these people, My grandmother was one of these people, My grandmother was one of these people, you know, she read the Bible five, six you know, she read the Bible five, six you know, she read the Bible five, six times a day. She prayed five, six times times a day. She prayed five, six times times a day. She prayed five, six times a day. Was Was a woman, you know, Memaw a day. Was Was a woman, you know, Memaw a day. Was Was a woman, you know, Memaw was was devoutly religious. But, we were was was devoutly religious. But, we were was was devoutly religious. But, we were what you you would call unchurched. So, what you you would call unchurched. So, what you you would call unchurched. So, I would go to church with my dad. I I would go to church with my dad. I I would go to church with my dad. I would occasionally go to church with my would occasionally go to church with my would occasionally go to church with my mom, occasionally with my Memaw, but, mom, occasionally with my Memaw, but, mom, occasionally with my Memaw, but, you know, our religion was very much you know, our religion was very much you know, our religion was very much experienced at home. It was you would experienced at home. It was you would experienced at home. It was you would watch televangelists on TV.

watch televangelists on TV. watch televangelists on TV. You would watch Billy Graham revival You would watch Billy Graham revival You would watch Billy Graham revival things on TV, but we didn't go to church things on TV, but we didn't go to church things on TV, but we didn't go to church that much. that much. that much. And so, you know, I got to a point in my And so, you know, I got to a point in my And so, you know, I got to a point in my life where I I just felt like my faith life where I I just felt like my faith life where I I just felt like my faith wasn't speaking to me anymore. It didn't wasn't speaking to me anymore. It didn't wasn't speaking to me anymore. It didn't seem to have particular relevance to my seem to have particular relevance to my seem to have particular relevance to my life. There was a certain, you know, new life. There was a certain, you know, new life. There was a certain, you know, new atheist element to it where I assumed atheist element to it where I assumed atheist element to it where I assumed that I knew more than these, you know, that I knew more than these, you know, that I knew more than these, you know, bumpkins that had raised me and, you bumpkins that had raised me and, you bumpkins that had raised me and, you know, her faith is all superstition. I'm know, her faith is all superstition. I'm know, her faith is all superstition. I'm rational and I'm a college-educated kid rational and I'm a college-educated kid rational and I'm a college-educated kid and I know things that other people and I know things that other people and I know things that other people don't. So, there's a certain don't. So, there's a certain don't. So, there's a certain intellectual arrogance that was built intellectual arrogance that was built intellectual arrogance that was built into it. But, sort of all these things into it. But, sort of all these things into it. But, sort of all these things kind of swam together. But, kind of swam together. But, kind of swam together. But, fundamentally, I I I think that the fundamentally, I I I think that the fundamentally, I I I think that the with all love and affection of my with all love and affection of my with all love and affection of my grandmother, grandmother, grandmother, I I think the thing about my faith that I I think the thing about my faith that I I think the thing about my faith that just never took root is that I never saw just never took root is that I never saw just never took root is that I never saw why it actually mattered that much. It why it actually mattered that much. It why it actually mattered that much. It was just a thing. It was in the was just a thing. It was in the was just a thing. It was in the background. It was something we background. It was something we background. It was something we believed. And I really did believe this believed. And I really did believe this believed. And I really did believe this stuff when I was a teenager. stuff when I was a teenager. stuff when I was a teenager. But, it didn't really matter. But, it didn't really matter. But, it didn't really matter. And so, when that boy collided with And so, when that boy collided with And so, when that boy collided with reality reality reality and collided with a lot of things that and collided with a lot of things that and collided with a lot of things that were going on in the world, I just was were going on in the world, I just was were going on in the world, I just was not properly prepared to actually not properly prepared to actually not properly prepared to actually integrate my faith into this new world.

integrate my faith into this new world. integrate my faith into this new world. >> When did you realize that it mattered? >> When did you realize that it mattered? >> When did you realize that it mattered? >> Well, well, so so okay. So so I become >> Well, well, so so okay. So so I become >> Well, well, so so okay. So so I become an atheist. I'm sort of one of these an atheist. I'm sort of one of these an atheist. I'm sort of one of these like angry atheists, you know, where like angry atheists, you know, where like angry atheists, you know, where I'll like argue with people who say that I'll like argue with people who say that I'll like argue with people who say that they're religious and I I pretend that they're religious and I I pretend that they're religious and I I pretend that I'm smarter than everybody else and it I'm smarter than everybody else and it I'm smarter than everybody else and it was like very embarrassing in hindsight, was like very embarrassing in hindsight, was like very embarrassing in hindsight, but you know, I I I go back and but you know, I I I go back and but you know, I I I go back and so so so just a flaw that I have. All of us have just a flaw that I have. All of us have just a flaw that I have. All of us have many flaws, many virtues, but a flaw many flaws, many virtues, but a flaw many flaws, many virtues, but a flaw that I have is I just I wanted to rise that I have is I just I wanted to rise that I have is I just I wanted to rise above. above. above. Now, where it came from a good place is Now, where it came from a good place is Now, where it came from a good place is I wanted stability, I wanted a decent I wanted stability, I wanted a decent I wanted stability, I wanted a decent income, I wanted to provide my kids that income, I wanted to provide my kids that income, I wanted to provide my kids that stability that I didn't have. stability that I didn't have. stability that I didn't have. But where it was a very bad thing is I But where it was a very bad thing is I But where it was a very bad thing is I cared way too much about what cared way too much about what cared way too much about what credentials I had, where did I go to credentials I had, where did I go to credentials I had, where did I go to school, how much money that I made. And school, how much money that I made. And school, how much money that I made. And so this sort of new atheism so this sort of new atheism so this sort of new atheism actually was like the perfect philosophy actually was like the perfect philosophy actually was like the perfect philosophy for the creed of a kid who just wanted for the creed of a kid who just wanted for the creed of a kid who just wanted to get ahead. I wanted to make as much to get ahead. I wanted to make as much to get ahead. I wanted to make as much money, I wanted to have the most money, I wanted to have the most money, I wanted to have the most prestigious profession. I was super prestigious profession. I was super prestigious profession. I was super ambitious for ambition's sake.

ambitious for ambition's sake. ambitious for ambition's sake. And you know, so I I I'd won every And you know, so I I I'd won every And you know, so I I I'd won every competition that life had put before me. competition that life had put before me. competition that life had put before me. You know, I'm I'm at this point in my You know, I'm I'm at this point in my You know, I'm I'm at this point in my late 20s. I've got a beautiful late 20s. I've got a beautiful late 20s. I've got a beautiful girlfriend. Things are going pretty girlfriend. Things are going pretty girlfriend. Things are going pretty well. I'm at Yale Law School, right? The well. I'm at Yale Law School, right? The well. I'm at Yale Law School, right? The top law school in the United States of top law school in the United States of top law school in the United States of America, very prestigious. Everybody America, very prestigious. Everybody America, very prestigious. Everybody thought I was very smart because I went thought I was very smart because I went thought I was very smart because I went to Yale Law School and I cared about to Yale Law School and I cared about to Yale Law School and I cared about that back then. I don't care about it that back then. I don't care about it that back then. I don't care about it now. now. now. And I sort of realized I'm actually not And I sort of realized I'm actually not And I sort of realized I'm actually not like a happy person. like a happy person. like a happy person. I'm not a good person. I care about I'm not a good person. I care about I'm not a good person. I care about where I went to law school way more than where I went to law school way more than where I went to law school way more than whether I'm good to this girl, right? I whether I'm good to this girl, right? I whether I'm good to this girl, right? I mean, I like like I I really was like mean, I like like I I really was like mean, I like like I I really was like madly in love with her, but was I like a madly in love with her, but was I like a madly in love with her, but was I like a particularly good boyfriend? No. I I'd particularly good boyfriend? No. I I'd particularly good boyfriend? No. I I'd learned from my youth to be chaotic and learned from my youth to be chaotic and learned from my youth to be chaotic and I'd threaten to break up with her every I'd threaten to break up with her every I'd threaten to break up with her every other month and you know, if we had an other month and you know, if we had an other month and you know, if we had an argument, I'd just like disappear for a argument, I'd just like disappear for a argument, I'd just like disappear for a couple days. I mean, I was just like not couple days. I mean, I was just like not couple days. I mean, I was just like not and I I sort of realized, okay, there's and I I sort of realized, okay, there's and I I sort of realized, okay, there's something missing here. something missing here. something missing here. There's something that all of this There's something that all of this There's something that all of this obsession with achievement and being obsession with achievement and being obsession with achievement and being smarter than everybody else and being smarter than everybody else and being smarter than everybody else and being rational, rational, rational, it has not actually made me a good it has not actually made me a good it has not actually made me a good person.

person. person. And I sort of looked around and said, And I sort of looked around and said, And I sort of looked around and said, "Well, who are the people that I like "Well, who are the people that I like "Well, who are the people that I like actually want to be like? Who are the actually want to be like? Who are the actually want to be like? Who are the people that I most admire in the world?" people that I most admire in the world?" people that I most admire in the world?" And I slowly realized that the ones who And I slowly realized that the ones who And I slowly realized that the ones who are the most virtuous, the ones who are are the most virtuous, the ones who are are the most virtuous, the ones who are the best at the things that actually the best at the things that actually the best at the things that actually mattered, they were Christians. And mattered, they were Christians. And mattered, they were Christians. And their faith motivated not an obsession their faith motivated not an obsession their faith motivated not an obsession with getting ahead, but an obsession with getting ahead, but an obsession with getting ahead, but an obsession with treating people well, or an with treating people well, or an with treating people well, or an obsession with developing the strength obsession with developing the strength obsession with developing the strength of character that mattered so that you of character that mattered so that you of character that mattered so that you could withstand in a very tough could withstand in a very tough could withstand in a very tough circumstances. And I started to think to circumstances. And I started to think to circumstances. And I started to think to myself, "Okay, wait a second. myself, "Okay, wait a second. myself, "Okay, wait a second. There's like these rays of sunshine from There's like these rays of sunshine from There's like these rays of sunshine from Christians that I knew in my life, from Christians that I knew in my life, from Christians that I knew in my life, from Christian ideas that it sort of were in Christian ideas that it sort of were in Christian ideas that it sort of were in the background of my own, you know, the background of my own, you know, the background of my own, you know, intellectual curiosity. intellectual curiosity. intellectual curiosity. And if there are all of these rays of And if there are all of these rays of And if there are all of these rays of sunshine where Christianity seems to be sunshine where Christianity seems to be sunshine where Christianity seems to be warmer and truer than something else, warmer and truer than something else, warmer and truer than something else, maybe the rest of it actually has maybe the rest of it actually has maybe the rest of it actually has something to be said for it, too. And something to be said for it, too. And something to be said for it, too. And that kind of led me down a pathway of that kind of led me down a pathway of that kind of led me down a pathway of thinking about my faith in a way that I thinking about my faith in a way that I thinking about my faith in a way that I never had when I was a teenager. I never never had when I was a teenager. I never never had when I was a teenager. I never had to when I was a teenager. And it had to when I was a teenager. And it had to when I was a teenager. And it finally just hit me like, there is finally just hit me like, there is finally just hit me like, there is something deeply profound about this.

something deeply profound about this. something deeply profound about this. And at first it was an intellectual And at first it was an intellectual And at first it was an intellectual thing, right? But over time, it became a thing, right? But over time, it became a thing, right? But over time, it became a more emotional and more practiced thing. more emotional and more practiced thing. more emotional and more practiced thing. And eventually I got baptized. I never And eventually I got baptized. I never And eventually I got baptized. I never been baptized as a kid. And, you know, been baptized as a kid. And, you know, been baptized as a kid. And, you know, even though my wife is not Christian, I even though my wife is not Christian, I even though my wife is not Christian, I force force her to take take take uh our force force her to take take take uh our force force her to take take take uh our three kids and husband to to to church three kids and husband to to to church three kids and husband to to to church every single week. And she's remarkably every single week. And she's remarkably every single week. And she's remarkably patient about it, but it's it's it's one patient about it, but it's it's it's one patient about it, but it's it's it's one of these things where it really did of these things where it really did of these things where it really did transform me, but in a slower way. transform me, but in a slower way. transform me, but in a slower way. >> Atheism is a form of religion in a in a >> Atheism is a form of religion in a in a >> Atheism is a form of religion in a in a way, isn't it? It has the same level of way, isn't it? It has the same level of way, isn't it? It has the same level of sort of certainty. And I that's why I sort of certainty. And I that's why I sort of certainty. And I that's why I describe myself to you as an agnostic describe myself to you as an agnostic describe myself to you as an agnostic cuz I it feels a little bit arrogant to cuz I it feels a little bit arrogant to cuz I it feels a little bit arrogant to say that I know. say that I know. say that I know. >> Yeah. Yeah, no, that's that's that's >> Yeah. Yeah, no, that's that's that's >> Yeah. Yeah, no, that's that's that's interesting. interesting. interesting. >> I'm going to change out a little bit of >> I'm going to change out a little bit of >> I'm going to change out a little bit of a hot topic which is [laughter] a hot topic which is [laughter] a hot topic which is [laughter] AI. AI is going to cause a lot of job AI. AI is going to cause a lot of job AI. AI is going to cause a lot of job disruption and um disruption and um disruption and um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> it's a big topic of conversation for my >> it's a big topic of conversation for my >> it's a big topic of conversation for my audience but also as an entrepreneur and audience but also as an entrepreneur and audience but also as an entrepreneur and investor we we're talking a lot at the investor we we're talking a lot at the investor we we're talking a lot at the moment about the impact of AI. When you moment about the impact of AI. When you moment about the impact of AI. When you look at the the words of the big AI CEOs look at the the words of the big AI CEOs look at the the words of the big AI CEOs over time over time over time >> one thing I find fascinating is if you >> one thing I find fascinating is if you >> one thing I find fascinating is if you look at Sam Altman's words about the look at Sam Altman's words about the look at Sam Altman's words about the impact AI is going to have it's very impact AI is going to have it's very impact AI is going to have it's very dystopian. You look at Elon, very very dystopian. You look at Elon, very very dystopian. You look at Elon, very very dystopian.

dystopian. dystopian. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And right now I think the only thing >> And right now I think the only thing >> And right now I think the only thing that's that's that's up there with being as unpopular as AI up there with being as unpopular as AI up there with being as unpopular as AI is ice in the US. [laughter] is ice in the US. [laughter] is ice in the US. [laughter] I saw it this graph the other day I saw it this graph the other day I saw it this graph the other day in terms of how unpopular it is. Eric in terms of how unpopular it is. Eric in terms of how unpopular it is. Eric Schmidt who I know you know because he Schmidt who I know you know because he Schmidt who I know you know because he was an investor in your company I was an investor in your company I was an investor in your company I believe. The other day when he was doing believe. The other day when he was doing believe. The other day when he was doing that commencement speech in front of the that commencement speech in front of the that commencement speech in front of the college students he was booed every time college students he was booed every time college students he was booed every time he said the word he said the word he said the word >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Are you scared about the potential >> Are you scared about the potential >> Are you scared about the potential economic impact and unemployment impact economic impact and unemployment impact economic impact and unemployment impact of artificial intelligence at this of artificial intelligence at this of artificial intelligence at this moment in time? moment in time? moment in time? >> So I'd say I'm less scared about that >> So I'd say I'm less scared about that >> So I'd say I'm less scared about that than I am about other things. than I am about other things. than I am about other things. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. So >> Okay. So >> Okay. So historical analogies are always fraught. historical analogies are always fraught. historical analogies are always fraught. And by the way, I think the AI companies And by the way, I think the AI companies And by the way, I think the AI companies themselves, the CEOs, there's a certain themselves, the CEOs, there's a certain themselves, the CEOs, there's a certain incentive to be super dystopian incentive to be super dystopian incentive to be super dystopian >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> because it's it's like a form of viral >> because it's it's like a form of viral >> because it's it's like a form of viral marketing. That if people are really marketing. That if people are really marketing. That if people are really scared of your product that must mean scared of your product that must mean scared of your product that must mean that it really works. And if they're not that it really works. And if they're not that it really works. And if they're not scared of your product maybe it actually scared of your product maybe it actually scared of your product maybe it actually doesn't work that well. So I think doesn't work that well. So I think doesn't work that well. So I think there's something weird there there's there's something weird there there's there's something weird there there's something synergistic about the most something synergistic about the most something synergistic about the most pessimistic predictions about AI and pessimistic predictions about AI and pessimistic predictions about AI and some of the people who are making them.

some of the people who are making them. some of the people who are making them. But like set that to the side cuz I do But like set that to the side cuz I do But like set that to the side cuz I do have some real concerns. But on the job have some real concerns. But on the job have some real concerns. But on the job displacement thing, okay. So let me back displacement thing, okay. So let me back displacement thing, okay. So let me back up for a second because I bring a up for a second because I bring a up for a second because I bring a certain bias to this. certain bias to this. certain bias to this. So when I was again, this is a this is So when I was again, this is a this is So when I was again, this is a this is an almost religious idea that I an almost religious idea that I an almost religious idea that I developed in the early 2010s that I developed in the early 2010s that I developed in the early 2010s that I think it's just preposterous now. And think it's just preposterous now. And think it's just preposterous now. And that religious idea was that there was that religious idea was that there was that religious idea was that there was like this inevitable march of economics like this inevitable march of economics like this inevitable march of economics from agricultural to industrial to from agricultural to industrial to from agricultural to industrial to service-based. service-based. service-based. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And the reason that all of my friends >> And the reason that all of my friends >> And the reason that all of my friends and family were losing their jobs was and family were losing their jobs was and family were losing their jobs was because that was just an inevitable because that was just an inevitable because that was just an inevitable economic trend that advanced economies, economic trend that advanced economies, economic trend that advanced economies, they deindustrialized, okay? And there they deindustrialized, okay? And there they deindustrialized, okay? And there was even this argument at the time that was even this argument at the time that was even this argument at the time that the reason why manufacturing employment the reason why manufacturing employment the reason why manufacturing employment was going down in the United States was was going down in the United States was was going down in the United States was because of automation, because of because of automation, because of because of automation, because of technology. That it had nothing to do technology. That it had nothing to do technology. That it had nothing to do with outsourcing or with immigration, with outsourcing or with immigration, with outsourcing or with immigration, but it was purely because of technology but it was purely because of technology but it was purely because of technology had replaced all these workers with had replaced all these workers with had replaced all these workers with robots.

robots. robots. I think that story is totally false. I think that story is totally false. I think that story is totally false. Now, the robots that exist in Now, the robots that exist in Now, the robots that exist in manufacturing, did they make people more manufacturing, did they make people more manufacturing, did they make people more productive? Absolutely. Did they cause a productive? Absolutely. Did they cause a productive? Absolutely. Did they cause a change in what a manufacturing line change in what a manufacturing line change in what a manufacturing line worker was doing in say 2005 versus worker was doing in say 2005 versus worker was doing in say 2005 versus 1955? Absolutely. So, the change is 1955? Absolutely. So, the change is 1955? Absolutely. So, the change is there. But in reality, there was a ton there. But in reality, there was a ton there. But in reality, there was a ton of manufacturing job growth. It just of manufacturing job growth. It just of manufacturing job growth. It just wasn't happening in the United States of wasn't happening in the United States of wasn't happening in the United States of America. And I think sometimes we tell America. And I think sometimes we tell America. And I think sometimes we tell ourselves a story that technology always ourselves a story that technology always ourselves a story that technology always leads inevitably to job loss to make up leads inevitably to job loss to make up leads inevitably to job loss to make up for the fact that what often leads to for the fact that what often leads to for the fact that what often leads to job loss among populations is either job loss among populations is either job loss among populations is either outsourcing or immigration. You ship the outsourcing or immigration. You ship the outsourcing or immigration. You ship the job to another country, or you have job to another country, or you have job to another country, or you have somebody else take the job of somebody somebody else take the job of somebody somebody else take the job of somebody who currently has it. who currently has it. who currently has it. So, what do I think is actually going on So, what do I think is actually going on So, what do I think is actually going on with AI? I think you know, if you go with AI? I think you know, if you go with AI? I think you know, if you go back to the Industrial Revolution, back to the Industrial Revolution, back to the Industrial Revolution, right, the last significant major right, the last significant major right, the last significant major disruption in the labor market, you disruption in the labor market, you disruption in the labor market, you actually had way more people working at actually had way more people working at actually had way more people working at the end of the Industrial Revolution the end of the Industrial Revolution the end of the Industrial Revolution than you did beforehand. Again, some of than you did beforehand. Again, some of than you did beforehand. Again, some of the jobs were different. There was some the jobs were different. There was some the jobs were different. There was some job disruption. But when I look at AI, I job disruption. But when I look at AI, I job disruption. But when I look at AI, I don't see mass unemployment as the most don't see mass unemployment as the most don't see mass unemployment as the most likely consequence. I think people will likely consequence. I think people will likely consequence. I think people will become more productive. I think some become more productive. I think some become more productive. I think some people's jobs will change. Some people people's jobs will change. Some people people's jobs will change. Some people will lose their jobs. But I I just don't will lose their jobs. But I I just don't will lose their jobs. But I I just don't buy this idea, and I haven't seen any buy this idea, and I haven't seen any buy this idea, and I haven't seen any evidence in the data that it's going to evidence in the data that it's going to evidence in the data that it's going to lead to mass unemployment. Let me tell lead to mass unemployment. Let me tell lead to mass unemployment. Let me tell you what it does what does worry me.

you what it does what does worry me. you what it does what does worry me. Again, historical analogies are always Again, historical analogies are always Again, historical analogies are always fraught. You go back to the Industrial fraught. You go back to the Industrial fraught. You go back to the Industrial Revolution, was mass joblessness the Revolution, was mass joblessness the Revolution, was mass joblessness the main consequence of the shift from an main consequence of the shift from an main consequence of the shift from an agricultural to an industrial economy? agricultural to an industrial economy? agricultural to an industrial economy? No. But, what did happen? Rich people No. But, what did happen? Rich people No. But, what did happen? Rich people got way richer. got way richer. got way richer. And that led to in Europe fascism and And that led to in Europe fascism and And that led to in Europe fascism and communism. In fact, your country and my communism. In fact, your country and my communism. In fact, your country and my country, pretty much the only two country, pretty much the only two country, pretty much the only two countries that successfully avoided countries that successfully avoided countries that successfully avoided either a fascist or communist revolution either a fascist or communist revolution either a fascist or communist revolution in the in response to the Industrial in the in response to the Industrial in the in response to the Industrial Revolution. That's By the way, one of Revolution. That's By the way, one of Revolution. That's By the way, one of the real interesting things about, you the real interesting things about, you the real interesting things about, you know, Christianity know, Christianity know, Christianity is the these seminal texts about how is the these seminal texts about how is the these seminal texts about how capital and labor could work together, capital and labor could work together, capital and labor could work together, about how you could have social harmony, about how you could have social harmony, about how you could have social harmony, compared to Marx who was sort of saying compared to Marx who was sort of saying compared to Marx who was sort of saying there was inevitable social division, there was inevitable social division, there was inevitable social division, was Pope Leo the 13th who wrote in his was Pope Leo the 13th who wrote in his was Pope Leo the 13th who wrote in his famous encyclical that the way to famous encyclical that the way to famous encyclical that the way to preserve harmony between the social preserve harmony between the social preserve harmony between the social classes was to ensure that the workers classes was to ensure that the workers classes was to ensure that the workers could bargain. This is where sort of the could bargain. This is where sort of the could bargain. This is where sort of the idea of collective bargaining had a idea of collective bargaining had a idea of collective bargaining had a Christian underpinning.

Christian underpinning. Christian underpinning. And to make sure that the the And to make sure that the the And to make sure that the the capitalists weren't able to take capitalists weren't able to take capitalists weren't able to take advantage of the workers, they had to advantage of the workers, they had to advantage of the workers, they had to sort of respect them. sort of respect them. sort of respect them. And that that that model of social And that that that model of social And that that that model of social harmony, I think it's something we're harmony, I think it's something we're harmony, I think it's something we're either going to follow that Christian either going to follow that Christian either going to follow that Christian concept of social harmony in the age of concept of social harmony in the age of concept of social harmony in the age of AI, or we're going to wake up and we're AI, or we're going to wake up and we're AI, or we're going to wake up and we're going to realize that rich people have going to realize that rich people have going to realize that rich people have gotten way richer. gotten way richer. gotten way richer. The average American, the average Brit, The average American, the average Brit, The average American, the average Brit, the average Western society member has the average Western society member has the average Western society member has stagnated. And people really hate stagnated. And people really hate stagnated. And people really hate relative poverty. You can give people relative poverty. You can give people relative poverty. You can give people iPhones and you can give the people the iPhones and you can give the people the iPhones and you can give the people the creature comforts of a 21st century creature comforts of a 21st century creature comforts of a 21st century economy, but if you make rich people way economy, but if you make rich people way economy, but if you make rich people way richer, you're going to have significant richer, you're going to have significant richer, you're going to have significant problems. And so, I think that is like problems. And so, I think that is like problems. And so, I think that is like one of the consequences that I see from one of the consequences that I see from one of the consequences that I see from AI. The other The one other just cuz you AI. The other The one other just cuz you AI. The other The one other just cuz you asked about it. The other thing I really asked about it. The other thing I really asked about it. The other thing I really worry about with AI is surveillance. worry about with AI is surveillance. worry about with AI is surveillance. AI is, you know, a a friend of mine once AI is, you know, a a friend of mine once AI is, you know, a a friend of mine once said that AI is fundamentally a said that AI is fundamentally a said that AI is fundamentally a communist technology in that it allows communist technology in that it allows communist technology in that it allows governments and corporations to surveil governments and corporations to surveil governments and corporations to surveil people in very profound and different people in very profound and different people in very profound and different ways.

ways. ways. And that scares me a lot. Like I don't And that scares me a lot. Like I don't And that scares me a lot. Like I don't want a social credit system that's want a social credit system that's want a social credit system that's powered by AI. I don't want you to not powered by AI. I don't want you to not powered by AI. I don't want you to not be able to buy a beer because some tech be able to buy a beer because some tech be able to buy a beer because some tech CEO has given you a score based on an CEO has given you a score based on an CEO has given you a score based on an artificial intelligence algorithm that artificial intelligence algorithm that artificial intelligence algorithm that nobody actually understands. That scares nobody actually understands. That scares nobody actually understands. That scares me, too. But me, too. But me, too. But I don't think we're going to have mass I don't think we're going to have mass I don't think we're going to have mass unemployment. We might have mass unemployment. We might have mass unemployment. We might have mass inequality. That's its own problem. It's inequality. That's its own problem. It's inequality. That's its own problem. It's a different problem, though. a different problem, though. a different problem, though. >> Um according to the the current 2026 >> Um according to the the current 2026 >> Um according to the the current 2026 Federal Reserve and [clears throat] Federal Reserve and [clears throat] Federal Reserve and [clears throat] Census Bureau data, financial inequality Census Bureau data, financial inequality Census Bureau data, financial inequality in the United States has reached its in the United States has reached its in the United States has reached its highest level in nearly four decades. highest level in nearly four decades. highest level in nearly four decades. And obviously we've seen this headline And obviously we've seen this headline And obviously we've seen this headline this week of the US's first this week of the US's first this week of the US's first trillionaire. trillionaire. trillionaire. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which again has been talked about >> Which again has been talked about >> Which again has been talked about everywhere around the world and it's now everywhere around the world and it's now everywhere around the world and it's now has sparked this debate. You think about has sparked this debate. You think about has sparked this debate. You think about the the explosion we're seeing in robo- the the explosion we're seeing in robo- the the explosion we're seeing in robo- robotics and Elon Musk's pay packet robotics and Elon Musk's pay packet robotics and Elon Musk's pay packet rewarding him for getting a a million rewarding him for getting a a million rewarding him for getting a a million humanoid robots out there at at a humanoid robots out there at at a humanoid robots out there at at a certain timeline. And Elon himself certain timeline. And Elon himself certain timeline. And Elon himself saying there'll be a billion humanoid saying there'll be a billion humanoid saying there'll be a billion humanoid robots at some point. There'll be more robots at some point. There'll be more robots at some point. There'll be more humanoid robots than humans. It appears humanoid robots than humans. It appears humanoid robots than humans. It appears to me that there will be some kind of to me that there will be some kind of to me that there will be some kind of job disruption. We can obviously there's job disruption. We can obviously there's job disruption. We can obviously there's new jobs created which are like hard to new jobs created which are like hard to new jobs created which are like hard to forecast.

forecast. forecast. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you've got these big like um >> And you've got these big like um >> And you've got these big like um frontier model companies like OpenAI and frontier model companies like OpenAI and frontier model companies like OpenAI and Anthropic that are going to be Anthropic that are going to be Anthropic that are going to be benefactors of this evolution. Wealth is benefactors of this evolution. Wealth is benefactors of this evolution. Wealth is presumably going to accrue to these presumably going to accrue to these presumably going to accrue to these large large corporations, the Metas, the large large corporations, the Metas, the large large corporations, the Metas, the Anthropic, the OpenAIs. How would you Anthropic, the OpenAIs. How would you Anthropic, the OpenAIs. How would you think about We're already We already think about We're already We already think about We're already We already have crazy crazy inequality. How do you have crazy crazy inequality. How do you have crazy crazy inequality. How do you think about redistributing that wealth? think about redistributing that wealth? think about redistributing that wealth? Bernie Sanders [snorts] is saying people Bernie Sanders [snorts] is saying people Bernie Sanders [snorts] is saying people need to own 50% of these AI companies. need to own 50% of these AI companies. need to own 50% of these AI companies. What is your What is your What is your >> Which the president, by the way, likes >> Which the president, by the way, likes >> Which the president, by the way, likes that idea, too. that idea, too. that idea, too. >> it. >> it. >> it. >> He likes that idea. Um I don't know that >> He likes that idea. Um I don't know that >> He likes that idea. Um I don't know that he would say 50%, but he does like that he would say 50%, but he does like that he would say 50%, but he does like that idea. So there there's a um there's a idea. So there there's a um there's a idea. So there there's a um there's a concept in uh in in like the social concept in uh in in like the social concept in uh in in like the social welfare literature of redistribution welfare literature of redistribution welfare literature of redistribution versus pre-distribution. versus pre-distribution. versus pre-distribution. The idea of pre-distribution is that you The idea of pre-distribution is that you The idea of pre-distribution is that you give workers you give people normal give workers you give people normal give workers you give people normal people a seat at the bargaining table. people a seat at the bargaining table. people a seat at the bargaining table. And I don't think it's just economic. And I don't think it's just economic. And I don't think it's just economic. The economic thing by the way is very The economic thing by the way is very The economic thing by the way is very important. Like you you you want the the important. Like you you you want the the important. Like you you you want the the the worker whose life has been the worker whose life has been the worker whose life has been transformed by this technology to have a transformed by this technology to have a transformed by this technology to have a seat at the table. You want them to be seat at the table. You want them to be seat at the table. You want them to be able to actually bargain with the able to actually bargain with the able to actually bargain with the company for better wages. Now that's company for better wages. Now that's company for better wages. Now that's impossible if you think about it. Like impossible if you think about it. Like impossible if you think about it. Like the individual worker to negotiate the individual worker to negotiate the individual worker to negotiate against you know Dario from Anthropic.

against you know Dario from Anthropic. against you know Dario from Anthropic. It's not going to happen. But workers It's not going to happen. But workers It's not going to happen. But workers working together this is where the idea working together this is where the idea working together this is where the idea of collective bargaining came from it. of collective bargaining came from it. of collective bargaining came from it. There's all all kind of interesting There's all all kind of interesting There's all all kind of interesting things and again I I think there's like things and again I I think there's like things and again I I think there's like a deeply Christian concept to this. I a deeply Christian concept to this. I a deeply Christian concept to this. I know you're sort of you know fascinated know you're sort of you know fascinated know you're sort of you know fascinated by faith but not a person of faith by faith but not a person of faith by faith but not a person of faith yourself. There is a very deeply yourself. There is a very deeply yourself. There is a very deeply Christian concept that Christian concept that Christian concept that you have to give everybody in the you have to give everybody in the you have to give everybody in the country a seat at the table. country a seat at the table. country a seat at the table. So for example like okay there's the So for example like okay there's the So for example like okay there's the economic piece of it. What about the economic piece of it. What about the economic piece of it. What about the cultural piece of it? How will AI cultural piece of it? How will AI cultural piece of it? How will AI transform the culture that we consume transform the culture that we consume transform the culture that we consume that we distribute that we make? that we distribute that we make? that we distribute that we make? You know back in the 50s and 60s it was You know back in the 50s and 60s it was You know back in the 50s and 60s it was broadly accepted that now wasn't a broadly accepted that now wasn't a broadly accepted that now wasn't a censorship regime there's nothing legal censorship regime there's nothing legal censorship regime there's nothing legal going on here but it was broadly going on here but it was broadly going on here but it was broadly accepted that Hollywood would consult accepted that Hollywood would consult accepted that Hollywood would consult with the religious leaders of the time with the religious leaders of the time with the religious leaders of the time in order to ensure that the content they in order to ensure that the content they in order to ensure that the content they were making was actually consistent with were making was actually consistent with were making was actually consistent with the sensibilities of their membership the sensibilities of their membership the sensibilities of their membership and consistent with some basic Christian and consistent with some basic Christian and consistent with some basic Christian ideas. Again that wasn't forced but ideas. Again that wasn't forced but ideas. Again that wasn't forced but there was this mechanism that gave there was this mechanism that gave there was this mechanism that gave everybody a seat at the table. And I everybody a seat at the table. And I everybody a seat at the table. And I think that's one of the the bad things think that's one of the the bad things think that's one of the the bad things about the there many things about the about the there many things about the about the there many things about the decline of institutional Christianity in decline of institutional Christianity in decline of institutional Christianity in this country but we do not have a this country but we do not have a this country but we do not have a mechanism mechanism mechanism that gives powerful people that forces that gives powerful people that forces that gives powerful people that forces them to actually work with everybody them to actually work with everybody them to actually work with everybody else.

else. else. >> So do you think >> So do you think >> So do you think >> Religion was one of the ways that >> Religion was one of the ways that >> Religion was one of the ways that happened in the west. I think it happened in the west. I think it happened in the west. I think it probably probably the most profound and probably probably the most profound and probably probably the most profound and effective way that happened in the west. effective way that happened in the west. effective way that happened in the west. We just don't have it anymore and I We just don't have it anymore and I We just don't have it anymore and I really worry about that. really worry about that. really worry about that. >> So the president is supportive of the >> So the president is supportive of the >> So the president is supportive of the United States owning these big AI United States owning these big AI United States owning these big AI companies. companies. companies. >> He likes the idea as sort of a sovereign >> He likes the idea as sort of a sovereign >> He likes the idea as sort of a sovereign wealth fund idea of the United States wealth fund idea of the United States wealth fund idea of the United States taking some stake in these AI companies. taking some stake in these AI companies. taking some stake in these AI companies. He's said so publicly. I'm not breaking He's said so publicly. I'm not breaking He's said so publicly. I'm not breaking news, but you know, news, but you know, news, but you know, the president he is a very the president he is a very the president he is a very unconventional person. You would say a unconventional person. You would say a unconventional person. You would say a Republican's not supposed to think like Republican's not supposed to think like Republican's not supposed to think like that. The president doesn't care. The that. The president doesn't care. The that. The president doesn't care. The president just thinks the thoughts that president just thinks the thoughts that president just thinks the thoughts that he has. He develops them whether he has. He develops them whether he has. He develops them whether they're, you know, he they're, you know, he they're, you know, he he tries to determine is this a good he tries to determine is this a good he tries to determine is this a good idea or bad idea. I would kind of call idea or bad idea. I would kind of call idea or bad idea. I would kind of call him sort of a rad- radical pragmatist. him sort of a rad- radical pragmatist. him sort of a rad- radical pragmatist. So, I think most Europeans think that So, I think most Europeans think that So, I think most Europeans think that he's this hyper ideological person. He's he's this hyper ideological person. He's he's this hyper ideological person. He's extremely pragmatic about this stuff. extremely pragmatic about this stuff. extremely pragmatic about this stuff. But but But but But but one one one very important thought. one one one very important thought. one one one very important thought. The idea that we're going to allow The idea that we're going to allow The idea that we're going to allow these companies, let's say 10, 20 years these companies, let's say 10, 20 years these companies, let's say 10, 20 years down the road, to accumulate trillions down the road, to accumulate trillions down the road, to accumulate trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars and trillions and trillions of dollars and trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth, and then we're going to be of wealth, and then we're going to be of wealth, and then we're going to be able be able to successfully able be able to successfully able be able to successfully redistribute it to workers, I'm very redistribute it to workers, I'm very redistribute it to workers, I'm very skeptical of that. Very skeptical of skeptical of that. Very skeptical of skeptical of that. Very skeptical of that. I think that's that's a that's a that. I think that's that's a that's a that. I think that's that's a that's a very modern, I'd call it a liberal very modern, I'd call it a liberal very modern, I'd call it a liberal concept. This idea that you can just tax concept. This idea that you can just tax concept. This idea that you can just tax people and give it to poor people and it people and give it to poor people and it people and give it to poor people and it works out.

works out. works out. Then you turn the poor people into Then you turn the poor people into Then you turn the poor people into effectively subservience of the rich effectively subservience of the rich effectively subservience of the rich people. You have to give everybody a people. You have to give everybody a people. You have to give everybody a stake in the society. I haven't quite stake in the society. I haven't quite stake in the society. I haven't quite figured out how this is going to work in figured out how this is going to work in figured out how this is going to work in the age of AI. I think labor unions are the age of AI. I think labor unions are the age of AI. I think labor unions are a very important model here, but this is a very important model here, but this is a very important model here, but this is the the the model where you just take the the the model where you just take the the the model where you just take from some people and give to other from some people and give to other from some people and give to other people, that's never provided a stable people, that's never provided a stable people, that's never provided a stable society. You've got to give the workers society. You've got to give the workers society. You've got to give the workers a seat at the table. a seat at the table. a seat at the table. >> Mama. Mama? >> Mama. Mama? >> Mama. Mama? >> Mama. >> Mama. >> Mama. >> Mama. >> Mama. >> Mama. >> Mama. >> Mama. >> Mama. >> She passed away when you were 21 years >> She passed away when you were 21 years >> She passed away when you were 21 years old. Rushed to the hospital with a old. Rushed to the hospital with a old. Rushed to the hospital with a collapsed lung 2 days after her 72nd collapsed lung 2 days after her 72nd collapsed lung 2 days after her 72nd birthday. birthday. birthday. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And she was taken off life support. She >> And she was taken off life support. She >> And she was taken off life support. She was clearly the most important um figure was clearly the most important um figure was clearly the most important um figure in your life from reading your story for in your life from reading your story for in your life from reading your story for so many reasons. so many reasons. so many reasons. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> She hasn't gotten to see the the >> She hasn't gotten to see the the >> She hasn't gotten to see the the position you rose to today. position you rose to today. position you rose to today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I read that you didn't cry when she >> I read that you didn't cry when she >> I read that you didn't cry when she passed away. And you didn't process passed away. And you didn't process passed away. And you didn't process those emotions either because you sensed those emotions either because you sensed those emotions either because you sensed that your entire family was on the verge that your entire family was on the verge that your entire family was on the verge of collapse and you wanted to give the of collapse and you wanted to give the of collapse and you wanted to give the impression of emotional strength. That's impression of emotional strength. That's impression of emotional strength. That's what you say in your book what you say in your book what you say in your book >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> um Hillbilly and and page 169. >> um Hillbilly and and page 169. >> um Hillbilly and and page 169. What would she think of you today? What would she think of you today? What would she think of you today? [laughter] What what would she have [laughter] What what would she have [laughter] What what would she have said? said? said? >> Well, I think you know, she she she was >> Well, I think you know, she she she was >> Well, I think you know, she she she was again a deeply patriotic person. She again a deeply patriotic person. She again a deeply patriotic person. She should be amazed by this. I mean the the should be amazed by this. I mean the the should be amazed by this. I mean the the pageantry being able to go to the White pageantry being able to go to the White pageantry being able to go to the White House just things like that would have House just things like that would have House just things like that would have been very very meaningful to her. been very very meaningful to her. been very very meaningful to her. Um Um Um >> What would you say to her? >> What would you say to her? >> What would you say to her? >> I think that I would say thank you. >> I think that I would say thank you. >> I think that I would say thank you. I mean the the I mean the the I mean the the the the the the through the maybe the most important the through the maybe the most important the through the maybe the most important lesson that I've learned is that the lesson that I've learned is that the lesson that I've learned is that the difference between good people difference between good people difference between good people and people who struggle is good people and people who struggle is good people and people who struggle is good people have a good sense of gratitude. And I have a good sense of gratitude. And I have a good sense of gratitude. And I don't know that I would be alive were it don't know that I would be alive were it don't know that I would be alive were it not for this woman. not for this woman. not for this woman. I certainly wouldn't be here. I certainly wouldn't be here. I certainly wouldn't be here. And I think that the one thing Ma would And I think that the one thing Ma would And I think that the one thing Ma would worry about and I think I've done a worry about and I think I've done a worry about and I think I've done a pretty good job just to be clear. pretty good job just to be clear. pretty good job just to be clear. But Ma would worry a lot about the pomp But Ma would worry a lot about the pomp But Ma would worry a lot about the pomp and the circumstance and the same way and the circumstance and the same way and the circumstance and the same way that she would be amazed by it. She that she would be amazed by it. She that she would be amazed by it. She would find it incredible and she would would find it incredible and she would would find it incredible and she would love to participate and see it. She's love to participate and see it. She's love to participate and see it. She's always really really worried. She would always really really worried. She would always really really worried. She would always say don't get too big for your always say don't get too big for your always say don't get too big for your britches.

britches. britches. And what that means is don't let it go And what that means is don't let it go And what that means is don't let it go to your head. Don't think that you're to your head. Don't think that you're to your head. Don't think that you're better than somebody just because you better than somebody just because you better than somebody just because you have a title or because you have more have a title or because you have more have a title or because you have more money than they do. And I think that I I money than they do. And I think that I I money than they do. And I think that I I have to constantly remind myself that I have to constantly remind myself that I have to constantly remind myself that I get to be vice president for 4 years. get to be vice president for 4 years. get to be vice president for 4 years. I'm going to do as good of a job as I I'm going to do as good of a job as I I'm going to do as good of a job as I can for that 4 years, but it doesn't can for that 4 years, but it doesn't can for that 4 years, but it doesn't make me better than anybody and it make me better than anybody and it make me better than anybody and it doesn't mean that I know more than doesn't mean that I know more than doesn't mean that I know more than anybody. I mean I mean it more about anybody. I mean I mean it more about anybody. I mean I mean it more about like CIA reports, but fundamentally like CIA reports, but fundamentally like CIA reports, but fundamentally if you start to see yourself I think as if you start to see yourself I think as if you start to see yourself I think as better better better you become unable to successfully govern you become unable to successfully govern you become unable to successfully govern a democratic country. a democratic country. a democratic country. >> Have you ever grieved the loss of mom >> Have you ever grieved the loss of mom >> Have you ever grieved the loss of mom because because because >> Oh, absolutely. I mean I you know, I >> Oh, absolutely. I mean I you know, I >> Oh, absolutely. I mean I you know, I think I wrote in the book. I didn't cry think I wrote in the book. I didn't cry think I wrote in the book. I didn't cry when she died. I I cried a lot 2 days when she died. I I cried a lot 2 days when she died. I I cried a lot 2 days later. later. later. Yeah, I mean I've I've grieved I've Yeah, I mean I've I've grieved I've Yeah, I mean I've I've grieved I've grieved her for a long time. I mean my grieved her for a long time. I mean my grieved her for a long time. I mean my my biggest regret with mom my biggest regret with mom my biggest regret with mom is just she never met Usha. is just she never met Usha. is just she never met Usha. >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> And >> And >> And there's something so similar about them there's something so similar about them there's something so similar about them but so different. Like they're both but so different. Like they're both but so different. Like they're both incredibly smart. You know, mom left incredibly smart. You know, mom left incredibly smart. You know, mom left school middle school. Usha went to law school middle school. Usha went to law school middle school. Usha went to law school.

school. school. They're incredibly blunt people, right? They're incredibly blunt people, right? They're incredibly blunt people, right? I mean Usha just doesn't have a filter. I mean Usha just doesn't have a filter. I mean Usha just doesn't have a filter. It's one of the things I I was It's one of the things I I was It's one of the things I I was immediately attracted to about her is immediately attracted to about her is immediately attracted to about her is that even she if she was going to offend that even she if she was going to offend that even she if she was going to offend you, she was going to say exactly what you, she was going to say exactly what you, she was going to say exactly what was on her mind. But they came from such was on her mind. But they came from such was on her mind. But they came from such different worlds and I think my different worlds and I think my different worlds and I think my grandmother would be fascinated by her. grandmother would be fascinated by her. grandmother would be fascinated by her. You know, when mom met Usha You know, when mom met Usha You know, when mom met Usha and you know, Usha and you know, Usha and you know, Usha ethnically is Indian. She was born in ethnically is Indian. She was born in ethnically is Indian. She was born in the United States but the United States but the United States but you know, my mom said it just goes to you know, my mom said it just goes to you know, my mom said it just goes to show sometimes how how uh show sometimes how how uh show sometimes how how uh how little some of us knew about the how little some of us knew about the how little some of us knew about the world. world. world. She said, you know, what is she like She said, you know, what is she like She said, you know, what is she like ethnically? ethnically? ethnically? And I said, "Mom, she's Indian." And I said, "Mom, she's Indian." And I said, "Mom, she's Indian." And my mom says, "Which tribe?" And my mom says, "Which tribe?" And my mom says, "Which tribe?" >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, they came from very different >> So, they came from very different >> So, they came from very different worlds, both mom and Usha but also mom worlds, both mom and Usha but also mom worlds, both mom and Usha but also mom and Usha. and Usha. and Usha. But that that is the biggest regret But that that is the biggest regret But that that is the biggest regret about her death is that you know, if she about her death is that you know, if she about her death is that you know, if she was the most important person in my life was the most important person in my life was the most important person in my life for the first 20 years, Usha's the most for the first 20 years, Usha's the most for the first 20 years, Usha's the most important for the rest of it and I important for the rest of it and I important for the rest of it and I really wish those two people could have really wish those two people could have really wish those two people could have met cuz they're amazing people. met cuz they're amazing people. met cuz they're amazing people. >> The emotion's still right on the surface >> The emotion's still right on the surface >> The emotion's still right on the surface for you. for you. for you. >> Very much so.

>> We have a closing tradition on this >> We have a closing tradition on this podcast. podcast. podcast. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Where the last guest leaves a question >> Where the last guest leaves a question >> Where the last guest leaves a question [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] for the next next guest not knowing who for the next next guest not knowing who for the next next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. they're leaving it for. they're leaving it for. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> The question that's left for you is I >> The question that's left for you is I >> The question that's left for you is I think it was slightly biased. But the think it was slightly biased. But the think it was slightly biased. But the question is question is question is are aliens real? are aliens real? are aliens real? >> [laughter] >> It's interesting. >> It's interesting. Here's the thing, I don't know. Here's the thing, I don't know. Here's the thing, I don't know. It is It is something that I have sworn It is It is something that I have sworn It is It is something that I have sworn to myself. I'm now a year and a half to myself. I'm now a year and a half to myself. I'm now a year and a half into this job that I would go through into this job that I would go through into this job that I would go through all of the highly classified information all of the highly classified information all of the highly classified information about everything that we know about about everything that we know about about everything that we know about UFOs. I just haven't done it yet. It's UFOs. I just haven't done it yet. It's UFOs. I just haven't done it yet. It's like one of these crazy things where you like one of these crazy things where you like one of these crazy things where you get in the job and the day-to-day just get in the job and the day-to-day just get in the job and the day-to-day just takes over. So, I haven't done that yet. takes over. So, I haven't done that yet. takes over. So, I haven't done that yet. But, I mean, look, I I am But, I mean, look, I I am But, I mean, look, I I am I believe in things I believe in things I believe in things and I think that they're true and I and I think that they're true and I and I think that they're true and I think that they're rational, but I think that they're rational, but I think that they're rational, but I recognize that there may be even crazier recognize that there may be even crazier recognize that there may be even crazier than the idea that there are than the idea that there are than the idea that there are extraterrestrials. Like, I believe that extraterrestrials. Like, I believe that extraterrestrials. Like, I believe that a Jewish man about 2,000 years ago was a Jewish man about 2,000 years ago was a Jewish man about 2,000 years ago was the only begotten son of God, was the only begotten son of God, was the only begotten son of God, was literally crucified, and then rose from literally crucified, and then rose from literally crucified, and then rose from the dead 3 days later. Like, I recognize the dead 3 days later. Like, I recognize the dead 3 days later. Like, I recognize that sounds a little out there, that sounds a little out there, that sounds a little out there, but I think that it's true.

but I think that it's true. but I think that it's true. And I 100% believe that people have And I 100% believe that people have And I 100% believe that people have mystical experiences. I mean, I've I've mystical experiences. I mean, I've I've mystical experiences. I mean, I've I've talked to people who have been involved talked to people who have been involved talked to people who have been involved in exorcisms. in exorcisms. in exorcisms. And again, I think the rational mind And again, I think the rational mind And again, I think the rational mind says, "Well, that's just schizophrenia says, "Well, that's just schizophrenia says, "Well, that's just schizophrenia or that's some other mental illness." or that's some other mental illness." or that's some other mental illness." I've talked to people who said, "Yeah, I've talked to people who said, "Yeah, I've talked to people who said, "Yeah, 99.9% of the people that I've looked at 99.9% of the people that I've looked at 99.9% of the people that I've looked at doing an exorcism on were schizophrenic doing an exorcism on were schizophrenic doing an exorcism on were schizophrenic or had some other mental illness." But, or had some other mental illness." But, or had some other mental illness." But, there's something There are weird things there's something There are weird things there's something There are weird things out there that we cannot explain. There out there that we cannot explain. There out there that we cannot explain. There are weird moments. I mean, I remember are weird moments. I mean, I remember are weird moments. I mean, I remember not long after my grandmother died, my not long after my grandmother died, my not long after my grandmother died, my sister lost, you know, she didn't really sister lost, you know, she didn't really sister lost, you know, she didn't really lose her temper, but like got kind of lose her temper, but like got kind of lose her temper, but like got kind of angry with her daughter, and her angry with her daughter, and her angry with her daughter, and her daughter was I don't know, 7 or 8 years daughter was I don't know, 7 or 8 years daughter was I don't know, 7 or 8 years old at the time, and like the light bulb old at the time, and like the light bulb old at the time, and like the light bulb just exploded. just exploded. just exploded. And both of us looked at each other And both of us looked at each other And both of us looked at each other like, "That was Ma Bell." I remember I like, "That was Ma Bell." I remember I like, "That was Ma Bell." I remember I was talking I I write about this in was talking I I write about this in was talking I I write about this in Communion. Communion. Communion. I was talking to New York Times writer I was talking to New York Times writer I was talking to New York Times writer um about the Pope in sort of different um about the Pope in sort of different um about the Pope in sort of different perspectives on the Pope. And he was perspectives on the Pope. And he was perspectives on the Pope. And he was more critical of the Pope, and I was more critical of the Pope, and I was more critical of the Pope, and I was more my attitude is like, "Ah, you know, more my attitude is like, "Ah, you know, more my attitude is like, "Ah, you know, he's not a politician. You can't judge he's not a politician. You can't judge he's not a politician. You can't judge him by politician standards. This is the him by politician standards. This is the him by politician standards. This is the last Pope." And we're like having this last Pope." And we're like having this last Pope." And we're like having this conversation, and it's like, "I'm conversation, and it's like, "I'm conversation, and it's like, "I'm telling you, man."

telling you, man." telling you, man." A glass just falls off the bar in a A glass just falls off the bar in a A glass just falls off the bar in a totally crazy way and shatters, and like totally crazy way and shatters, and like totally crazy way and shatters, and like stops us dead in our tracks. We both stops us dead in our tracks. We both stops us dead in our tracks. We both just at each other and said, "What the just at each other and said, "What the just at each other and said, "What the hell was that?" And hell was that?" And hell was that?" And I'm a believer in mystical experiences. I'm a believer in mystical experiences. I'm a believer in mystical experiences. I don't think they happen that often, I don't think they happen that often, I don't think they happen that often, but I think that people have experiences but I think that people have experiences but I think that people have experiences that are impossible to explain if you that are impossible to explain if you that are impossible to explain if you have a purely narrow, hyper-rational have a purely narrow, hyper-rational have a purely narrow, hyper-rational view of the world. In other words, I view of the world. In other words, I view of the world. In other words, I think the hyper-rational view of the think the hyper-rational view of the think the hyper-rational view of the world is actually not totally accurate. world is actually not totally accurate. world is actually not totally accurate. There's some weird out there. There's some weird out there. There's some weird out there. >> So, you think aliens could be real? >> So, you think aliens could be real? >> So, you think aliens could be real? >> I do. >> I do. >> I do. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Communion. >> Communion. >> Communion. Um it's really interesting because Um it's really interesting because Um it's really interesting because I went on a similar journey to you in I went on a similar journey to you in I went on a similar journey to you in terms of new atheism, terms of new atheism, terms of new atheism, very rational, how could any of this be very rational, how could any of this be very rational, how could any of this be true, arguing with Christians every time true, arguing with Christians every time true, arguing with Christians every time that I had the opportunity to in part to that I had the opportunity to in part to that I had the opportunity to in part to try and figure out my own opinion. try and figure out my own opinion. try and figure out my own opinion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Of course. Of course. Of course. >> Um and I now find myself as being an >> Um and I now find myself as being an >> Um and I now find myself as being an agnostic person and being open-minded agnostic person and being open-minded agnostic person and being open-minded and curious to new ideas. And I've it's and curious to new ideas. And I've it's and curious to new ideas. And I've it's almost a humility almost a humility almost a humility >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> that I wasn't humble before in that in >> that I wasn't humble before in that in >> that I wasn't humble before in that in that season of my life. But now I'm like that season of my life. But now I'm like that season of my life. But now I'm like open that I could be completely wrong open that I could be completely wrong open that I could be completely wrong >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> Sure. >> and listening intently. And I think this >> and listening intently. And I think this >> and listening intently. And I think this is why this book is so interesting is why this book is so interesting is why this book is so interesting because you represent I think the because you represent I think the because you represent I think the journey of a lot of people who have journey of a lot of people who have journey of a lot of people who have rationally talked themselves out of the rationally talked themselves out of the rationally talked themselves out of the possibility of faith, possibility of faith, possibility of faith, but then [snorts] have felt something but then [snorts] have felt something but then [snorts] have felt something >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> is missing at some level, feel like >> is missing at some level, feel like >> is missing at some level, feel like they've been they've been they've been lied to by themselves or society or some lied to by themselves or society or some lied to by themselves or society or some kind of culture. kind of culture. kind of culture. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And then have had the sort of >> And then have had the sort of >> And then have had the sort of open-minded exploration back to a place open-minded exploration back to a place open-minded exploration back to a place of meaning. And I'd say that that of meaning. And I'd say that that of meaning. And I'd say that that meaning and that sense of purpose is so meaning and that sense of purpose is so meaning and that sense of purpose is so absent in society at the moment. And absent in society at the moment. And absent in society at the moment. And also, like you said, the Christians that also, like you said, the Christians that also, like you said, the Christians that I've interviewed here, I've interviewed here, I've interviewed here, it doesn't feel to me to be a it doesn't feel to me to be a it doesn't feel to me to be a coincidence that they're the most coincidence that they're the most coincidence that they're the most virtuous, anchored, stable, happy, virtuous, anchored, stable, happy, virtuous, anchored, stable, happy, empathetic, charitable individuals I get empathetic, charitable individuals I get empathetic, charitable individuals I get to sit with. And that itself appears to to sit with. And that itself appears to to sit with. And that itself appears to be proof of something. be proof of something. be proof of something. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, your book here, Communion, >> And so, your book here, Communion, >> And so, your book here, Communion, Finding My Way Back to Faith, Finding My Way Back to Faith, Finding My Way Back to Faith, is I think a wonderful journey in that is I think a wonderful journey in that is I think a wonderful journey in that direction for anybody who is finds direction for anybody who is finds direction for anybody who is finds themselves at any stage in that journey. themselves at any stage in that journey. themselves at any stage in that journey. And it's out right now. And it's out right now. And it's out right now. Mr. Vice President, thank you so much Mr. Vice President, thank you so much Mr. Vice President, thank you so much for your time. I realize you're very for your time. I realize you're very for your time. I realize you're very busy, so it's a true honor that you busy, so it's a true honor that you busy, so it's a true honor that you chose to give me some of your time chose to give me some of your time chose to give me some of your time today. I really really appreciate it.

today. I really really appreciate it. today. I really really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> enjoyed this. Thank you. >> enjoyed this. Thank you. >> enjoyed this. Thank you. >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what algorithm where they know exactly what algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based video you would like to watch next based video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. on AI and all of your viewing behavior. on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video And the algorithm says that this video And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's is the perfect video for you. It's is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right different for everybody looking right different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out. I bet you you now. Check this video out. I bet you you now. Check this video out. I bet you you might love it.