Professor Brian Greene: The Threat of AI, Consciousness & The End of Humanity

And I can't convince you that we're not And I can't convince you that we're not in the matrix. Why? We could be. Is this in the matrix. Why? We could be. Is this in the matrix. Why? We could be. Is this table real? Am I really here? Am I a table real? Am I really here? Am I a table real? Am I really here? Am I a simulation sitting [music] inside some simulation sitting [music] inside some simulation sitting [music] inside some computer? Maybe there's a kid in 29th computer? Maybe there's a kid in 29th computer? Maybe there's a kid in 29th century Earth and they happen to allow century Earth and they happen to allow century Earth and they happen to allow you and I to exist sitting at this you and I to exist sitting at this you and I to exist sitting at this table. And here's a big assumption. table. And here's a big assumption. table. And here's a big assumption. [music] [music] [music] Can you create a computer program that Can you create a computer program that Can you create a computer program that has consciousness? Nobody knows the has consciousness? Nobody knows the has consciousness? Nobody knows the answer to that. But I've spoken to some answer to that. But I've spoken to some answer to that. But I've spoken to some of today's AI researchers who think that of today's AI researchers who think that of today's AI researchers who think that chat GPT is conscious. And in the back chat GPT is conscious. And in the back chat GPT is conscious. And in the back of my mind, [music] I do think it's of my mind, [music] I do think it's of my mind, [music] I do think it's possible. possible. possible. >> But if we considered robots to be >> But if we considered robots to be >> But if we considered robots to be conscious, would they then get rights? conscious, would they then get rights? conscious, would they then get rights? >> I think that's something we should think >> I think that's something we should think >> I think that's something we should think about now. Actually, about now. Actually, about now. Actually, >> Professor Brian Green, what is the >> Professor Brian Green, what is the >> Professor Brian Green, what is the ultimate question that you're seeking to ultimate question that you're seeking to ultimate question that you're seeking to answer? [music] answer? [music] answer? [music] >> We find ourselves thrust on this planet. >> We find ourselves thrust on this planet. >> We find ourselves thrust on this planet. We're trying to figure out why we're We're trying to figure out why we're We're trying to figure out why we're here. Is there some ultimate purpose? here. Is there some ultimate purpose? here. Is there some ultimate purpose? We're a little dot on planet Earth. And We're a little dot on planet Earth. And We're a little dot on planet Earth. And you begin to see our sun, one of many you begin to see our sun, one of many you begin to see our sun, one of many stars within [music] the galaxy. You can stars within [music] the galaxy. You can stars within [music] the galaxy. You can look at our Milky Way galaxy within the look at our Milky Way galaxy within the look at our Milky Way galaxy within the setting of the entire universe. [music] setting of the entire universe. [music] setting of the entire universe. [music] >> And what's beyond?

>> And what's beyond? >> And what's beyond? >> Well, if the universe is infinite, if >> Well, if the universe is infinite, if >> Well, if the universe is infinite, if you go sufficiently far out into space, you go sufficiently far out into space, you go sufficiently far out into space, you're virtually guaranteed to find a you're virtually guaranteed to find a you're virtually guaranteed to find a copy of yourself out there. copy of yourself out there. copy of yourself out there. >> There's a version out there of me that >> There's a version out there of me that >> There's a version out there of me that just loves wine. just loves wine. just loves wine. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> So, should I feel insignificant? >> So, should I feel insignificant? >> So, should I feel insignificant? >> I would urge you not to because fact >> I would urge you not to because fact >> I would urge you not to because fact that we can understand that we are so that we can understand that we are so that we can understand that we are so small, that's what gives us [music] a small, that's what gives us [music] a small, that's what gives us [music] a sense of connection to something larger. sense of connection to something larger. sense of connection to something larger. Do you think it could lead us to God? Do you think it could lead us to God? Do you think it could lead us to God? >> If you mean the kind [music] of God our >> If you mean the kind [music] of God our >> If you mean the kind [music] of God our forebears often have spoken, that feels forebears often have spoken, that feels forebears often have spoken, that feels to me very much a human creation. I will to me very much a human creation. I will to me very much a human creation. I will tell you why I'm skeptical of that. But tell you why I'm skeptical of that. But tell you why I'm skeptical of that. But another thing we [music] should think another thing we [music] should think another thing we [music] should think about is the end of the earth because if about is the end of the earth because if about is the end of the earth because if we go arbitrarily far into the future, we go arbitrarily far into the future, we go arbitrarily far into the future, the earth is [music] going to spiral. the earth is [music] going to spiral. the earth is [music] going to spiral. It's not going to get scary. It's not going to get scary. It's not going to get scary. >> Well, it's scary the whole way. >> This is super interesting to me. My team >> This is super interesting to me. My team given me this report to show me how many given me this report to show me how many given me this report to show me how many of you that watch this show subscribe of you that watch this show subscribe of you that watch this show subscribe and some of you have told us according and some of you have told us according and some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from to this that you are unsubscribed from to this that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly. So favor to ask the channel randomly. So favor to ask the channel randomly. So favor to ask all of you please could you check right all of you please could you check right all of you please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button now if you've hit the subscribe button now if you've hit the subscribe button if you are a regular view of the show if you are a regular view of the show if you are a regular view of the show and you like what we do here. We're and you like what we do here. We're and you like what we do here. We're approaching quite a significant landmark approaching quite a significant landmark approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber on this show in terms of a subscriber on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So, if there was one simple free number. So, if there was one simple free number. So, if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my thing that you could do to help us, my thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here, to keep this show team, everyone here, to keep this show team, everyone here, to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over free, to keep it improving year over free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to year and week over week, it is just to year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to double hit that subscribe button and to double hit that subscribe button and to double check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.

you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure every single week, every I'll make sure every single week, every I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder single month, we fight harder and harder single month, we fight harder and harder and harder and harder to bring you the and harder and harder to bring you the and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want guests and conversations that you want guests and conversations that you want to hear. I've stayed true to that to hear. I've stayed true to that to hear. I've stayed true to that promise since the very beginning of the promise since the very beginning of the promise since the very beginning of the Dio, and I will not let you down. Please Dio, and I will not let you down. Please Dio, and I will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get on with the show. [music] Professor Brian Green, Professor Brian Green, what is the ultimate question that what is the ultimate question that what is the ultimate question that you're seeking to answer? you're seeking to answer? you're seeking to answer? >> The ultimate question, I would say, is >> The ultimate question, I would say, is >> The ultimate question, I would say, is what is the true nature of reality? We what is the true nature of reality? We what is the true nature of reality? We find ourselves thrust on this planet and find ourselves thrust on this planet and find ourselves thrust on this planet and we look out and we're trying to figure we look out and we're trying to figure we look out and we're trying to figure out why we're here, what it's made of. out why we're here, what it's made of. out why we're here, what it's made of. Is there some ultimate purpose or is it Is there some ultimate purpose or is it Is there some ultimate purpose or is it just some interesting accident that just some interesting accident that just some interesting accident that allowed us to have self-awareness and allowed us to have self-awareness and allowed us to have self-awareness and ask these kinds of questions about the ask these kinds of questions about the ask these kinds of questions about the nature of the world? And I think that to nature of the world? And I think that to nature of the world? And I think that to me is the the deepest kind of question me is the the deepest kind of question me is the the deepest kind of question that we humans can ask. that we humans can ask. that we humans can ask. >> Do you feel like over the last 30 years >> Do you feel like over the last 30 years >> Do you feel like over the last 30 years of your career, you've gotten closer to of your career, you've gotten closer to of your career, you've gotten closer to understanding the answer to that understanding the answer to that understanding the answer to that question? Yes, but you know, it's kind question? Yes, but you know, it's kind question? Yes, but you know, it's kind of like picking up grains of sand on a of like picking up grains of sand on a of like picking up grains of sand on a beach, right? You pick up more and more beach, right? You pick up more and more beach, right? You pick up more and more and that that pouch of sand gets and that that pouch of sand gets and that that pouch of sand gets heavier. So, you're understanding is is heavier. So, you're understanding is is heavier. So, you're understanding is is deeper. It's weightier, but you look out deeper. It's weightier, but you look out deeper. It's weightier, but you look out and there's just almost infinitely more and there's just almost infinitely more and there's just almost infinitely more grains of sand that are out there. We grains of sand that are out there. We grains of sand that are out there. We understand the world better than we once understand the world better than we once understand the world better than we once did. But does that really take us some did. But does that really take us some did. But does that really take us some significant way toward assessing the big

significant way toward assessing the big significant way toward assessing the big deep questions of say why is there deep questions of say why is there deep questions of say why is there something rather than nothing maybe something rather than nothing maybe something rather than nothing maybe that's the deepest question of all but that's the deepest question of all but that's the deepest question of all but which I don't mean empty space I mean which I don't mean empty space I mean which I don't mean empty space I mean nothing nothing at all nothing nothing at all nothing nothing at all >> well we'll in this conversation go in >> well we'll in this conversation go in >> well we'll in this conversation go in the pursuit of that answer to tell the pursuit of that answer to tell the pursuit of that answer to tell people who you are and to let them people who you are and to let them people who you are and to let them understand the journey you've been on understand the journey you've been on understand the journey you've been on academically and through your career academically and through your career academically and through your career Where did you study? Where have you Where did you study? Where have you Where did you study? Where have you worked over the last couple of decades? worked over the last couple of decades? worked over the last couple of decades? >> Yeah, sure. Well, I grew up in >> Yeah, sure. Well, I grew up in >> Yeah, sure. Well, I grew up in Manhattan, right across from the Hayden Manhattan, right across from the Hayden Manhattan, right across from the Hayden Planetarium. I would wander the hallways Planetarium. I would wander the hallways Planetarium. I would wander the hallways of the planetarium and come upon a of the planetarium and come upon a of the planetarium and come upon a meteorite and the universe was sort of meteorite and the universe was sort of meteorite and the universe was sort of my backyard because of that. And that my backyard because of that. And that my backyard because of that. And that really set me on a trajectory that I really set me on a trajectory that I really set me on a trajectory that I continued following when I went to continued following when I went to continued following when I went to college, went to Harvard and studied college, went to Harvard and studied college, went to Harvard and studied mathematics and physics. Then from there mathematics and physics. Then from there mathematics and physics. Then from there was to uh Oxford where I got my was to uh Oxford where I got my was to uh Oxford where I got my doctorate pursuing work in a field doctorate pursuing work in a field doctorate pursuing work in a field called string theory and then through called string theory and then through called string theory and then through the academic ladder Cornell and the academic ladder Cornell and the academic ladder Cornell and ultimately Colombia where I've been a ultimately Colombia where I've been a ultimately Colombia where I've been a professor now for 30 some odd years you professor now for 30 some odd years you professor now for 30 some odd years you know director of the center for know director of the center for know director of the center for theoretical physics at Columbia theoretical physics at Columbia theoretical physics at Columbia University.

University. University. >> If you were to explain string theory to >> If you were to explain string theory to >> If you were to explain string theory to me like I was 12. me like I was 12. me like I was 12. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How would you do it? >> How would you do it? >> How would you do it? >> Yeah. I would simply say this. Your >> Yeah. I would simply say this. Your >> Yeah. I would simply say this. Your 12-year-old self probably knew that 12-year-old self probably knew that 12-year-old self probably knew that matter was made up of stuff called matter was made up of stuff called matter was made up of stuff called molecules that themselves are made up of molecules that themselves are made up of molecules that themselves are made up of atoms that are stuck together. And the atoms that are stuck together. And the atoms that are stuck together. And the the atoms are made of smaller things. the atoms are made of smaller things. the atoms are made of smaller things. Electrons in orbit around a nucleus that Electrons in orbit around a nucleus that Electrons in orbit around a nucleus that has neutrons and protons and neutrons has neutrons and protons and neutrons has neutrons and protons and neutrons and protons. They even have smaller and protons. They even have smaller and protons. They even have smaller particles, particles called quarks. The particles, particles called quarks. The particles, particles called quarks. The question is, is that the end of the question is, is that the end of the question is, is that the end of the story? Is it electrons and quirs and story? Is it electrons and quirs and story? Is it electrons and quirs and you're done? everything is made up of you're done? everything is made up of you're done? everything is made up of them. Or might there be a finer level of them. Or might there be a finer level of them. Or might there be a finer level of structure inside the electron, inside structure inside the electron, inside structure inside the electron, inside the quark? You take a powerful the quark? You take a powerful the quark? You take a powerful microscope, you look deeply. Would you microscope, you look deeply. Would you microscope, you look deeply. Would you see anything else? And the idea of see anything else? And the idea of see anything else? And the idea of string theory is yeah, you would. Inside string theory is yeah, you would. Inside string theory is yeah, you would. Inside an electron or inside a cork, you'd see an electron or inside a cork, you'd see an electron or inside a cork, you'd see a little tiny vibrating filament. And a little tiny vibrating filament. And a little tiny vibrating filament. And the different vibrations of the string the different vibrations of the string the different vibrations of the string yield the different particles. So much yield the different particles. So much yield the different particles. So much like a string on a violin, when it like a string on a violin, when it like a string on a violin, when it vibrates in one pattern, you hear it as vibrates in one pattern, you hear it as vibrates in one pattern, you hear it as a C or or an A sharp.

a C or or an A sharp. a C or or an A sharp. >> The different vibrations of the strings >> The different vibrations of the strings >> The different vibrations of the strings in string theory, they don't produce in string theory, they don't produce in string theory, they don't produce different musical tones. They produce different musical tones. They produce different musical tones. They produce different particles. So a string different particles. So a string different particles. So a string vibrating one way, electron. A string vibrating one way, electron. A string vibrating one way, electron. A string vibrating another way, a cork. So matter vibrating another way, a cork. So matter vibrating another way, a cork. So matter at its most fundamental level, if you at its most fundamental level, if you at its most fundamental level, if you were to take a powerful microscope and were to take a powerful microscope and were to take a powerful microscope and look deeply inside of any piece of look deeply inside of any piece of look deeply inside of any piece of matter, you'd see all these little matter, you'd see all these little matter, you'd see all these little vibrating filaments, these vibrating vibrating filaments, these vibrating vibrating filaments, these vibrating strings. That's the idea of the theory. strings. That's the idea of the theory. strings. That's the idea of the theory. >> So two questions come to mind when you >> So two questions come to mind when you >> So two questions come to mind when you say that, which is how do you know? And say that, which is how do you know? And say that, which is how do you know? And the second one is what if you zoomed in the second one is what if you zoomed in the second one is what if you zoomed in even further? even further? even further? >> Yeah, good. Both good questions. How do >> Yeah, good. Both good questions. How do >> Yeah, good. Both good questions. How do we know? We don't. Everything I just we know? We don't. Everything I just we know? We don't. Everything I just said could be utter nonsense. I don't said could be utter nonsense. I don't said could be utter nonsense. I don't think it is. But the only way that you think it is. But the only way that you think it is. But the only way that you know if an idea in science is correct is know if an idea in science is correct is know if an idea in science is correct is you need to make predictions that you you need to make predictions that you you need to make predictions that you can go out and test measure and see can go out and test measure and see can go out and test measure and see whether you can confirm the ideas. We whether you can confirm the ideas. We whether you can confirm the ideas. We don't have the technology to look don't have the technology to look don't have the technology to look sufficiently deeply into matter to see sufficiently deeply into matter to see sufficiently deeply into matter to see the strings. We don't have the particle the strings. We don't have the particle the strings. We don't have the particle accelerators, the particle colliders accelerators, the particle colliders accelerators, the particle colliders with enough power to slam things with enough power to slam things with enough power to slam things together to access this finer level of together to access this finer level of together to access this finer level of structure that the theory is suggesting.

structure that the theory is suggesting. structure that the theory is suggesting. So you might say then where do these So you might say then where do these So you might say then where do these ideas come from? Right? Answer ideas come from? Right? Answer ideas come from? Right? Answer mathematics. The power of mathematics is mathematics. The power of mathematics is mathematics. The power of mathematics is that it can take us to places that we that it can take us to places that we that it can take us to places that we can't yet go literally using equipment. can't yet go literally using equipment. can't yet go literally using equipment. When we look at the mathematics of When we look at the mathematics of When we look at the mathematics of quantum mechanics, the mathematics of quantum mechanics, the mathematics of quantum mechanics, the mathematics of general relativity, and we put that math general relativity, and we put that math general relativity, and we put that math inside the math of string theory, all of inside the math of string theory, all of inside the math of string theory, all of a sudden the equations work. They come a sudden the equations work. They come a sudden the equations work. They come together harmoniously, and we like, together harmoniously, and we like, together harmoniously, and we like, whoa, the math of quantum mechanics, whoa, the math of quantum mechanics, whoa, the math of quantum mechanics, we're confident in that. We have we're confident in that. We have we're confident in that. We have predictions and observations. The math predictions and observations. The math predictions and observations. The math of general relativity, we're confident of general relativity, we're confident of general relativity, we're confident in that. It makes predictions. We've in that. It makes predictions. We've in that. It makes predictions. We've confirmed through observations. Now confirmed through observations. Now confirmed through observations. Now we're willing to go where the math takes we're willing to go where the math takes we're willing to go where the math takes us. And the math takes us in this us. And the math takes us in this us. And the math takes us in this approach to these vibrating filaments, approach to these vibrating filaments, approach to these vibrating filaments, >> these vibrating strings. >> these vibrating strings. >> these vibrating strings. >> These vibrating strings. >> These vibrating strings. >> These vibrating strings. >> So if you pass me the string. >> So if you pass me the string. >> So if you pass me the string. >> So essentially, if you zoom into every >> So essentially, if you zoom into every >> So essentially, if you zoom into every cell on my body, cell on my body, cell on my body, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you will find that there's different >> you will find that there's different >> you will find that there's different shaped strings vibrating.

shaped strings vibrating. shaped strings vibrating. >> That's the prediction. >> That's the prediction. >> That's the prediction. >> That's the prediction. >> That's the prediction. >> That's the prediction. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And what is causing them to vibrate in a >> And what is causing them to vibrate in a >> And what is causing them to vibrate in a certain way? Who's telling them? certain way? Who's telling them? certain way? Who's telling them? >> Yeah. Yeah. The idea is we recognize >> Yeah. Yeah. The idea is we recognize >> Yeah. Yeah. The idea is we recognize that the universe has energy. If you're that the universe has energy. If you're that the universe has energy. If you're to ask me where does the energy come to ask me where does the energy come to ask me where does the energy come from. Nobody can answer that. That is from. Nobody can answer that. That is from. Nobody can answer that. That is the question of why there is something the question of why there is something the question of why there is something rather than nothing. The something is a rather than nothing. The something is a rather than nothing. The something is a fundamental currency called energy. If fundamental currency called energy. If fundamental currency called energy. If string theory is correct, then that string theory is correct, then that string theory is correct, then that energy manifests as these vibrational energy manifests as these vibrational energy manifests as these vibrational patterns of the strings themselves. If patterns of the strings themselves. If patterns of the strings themselves. If the theory is wrong, then the energy the theory is wrong, then the energy the theory is wrong, then the energy manifests through other things like manifests through other things like manifests through other things like motions of particles and the way in motions of particles and the way in motions of particles and the way in which spaceime warps and curves. But if which spaceime warps and curves. But if which spaceime warps and curves. But if string theory is correct, the energy of string theory is correct, the energy of string theory is correct, the energy of the universe is manifested in the the universe is manifested in the the universe is manifested in the vibrational patterns of strings. Now vibrational patterns of strings. Now vibrational patterns of strings. Now when you say like who mandates that that when you say like who mandates that that when you say like who mandates that that string vibrates in one pattern, that string vibrates in one pattern, that string vibrates in one pattern, that string vibrates in a different pattern. string vibrates in a different pattern. string vibrates in a different pattern. If we go back to the big bang, the If we go back to the big bang, the If we go back to the big bang, the energetic explosion that resulted in energetic explosion that resulted in energetic explosion that resulted in space expanding, the detailed way in space expanding, the detailed way in space expanding, the detailed way in which that happened ultimately dictates which that happened ultimately dictates which that happened ultimately dictates how this or that string vibrates in the how this or that string vibrates in the how this or that string vibrates in the aftermath of that rapid cosmological aftermath of that rapid cosmological aftermath of that rapid cosmological explosion.

explosion. explosion. >> Does this string theory idea tell us >> Does this string theory idea tell us >> Does this string theory idea tell us anything about why we're here? anything about why we're here? anything about why we're here? >> I would like to think that it does. It's >> I would like to think that it does. It's >> I would like to think that it does. It's very indirect and we are aggregates of a very indirect and we are aggregates of a very indirect and we are aggregates of a huge number of particles or if string huge number of particles or if string huge number of particles or if string theory is correct of a huge number of theory is correct of a huge number of theory is correct of a huge number of strings. I mean inside your body you've strings. I mean inside your body you've strings. I mean inside your body you've got something like a billion billion got something like a billion billion got something like a billion billion billion particles and if string theory billion particles and if string theory billion particles and if string theory is correct each of those particles is a is correct each of those particles is a is correct each of those particles is a vibrating filament. It is a gargantuan vibrating filament. It is a gargantuan vibrating filament. It is a gargantuan challenge to understand why those challenge to understand why those challenge to understand why those billion billion billion particles came billion billion billion particles came billion billion billion particles came together to yield you or me or somebody together to yield you or me or somebody together to yield you or me or somebody else. But again, that's a historical else. But again, that's a historical else. But again, that's a historical progression and I think we understand progression and I think we understand progression and I think we understand the broad outlines of that narrative the broad outlines of that narrative the broad outlines of that narrative that there was some initial event called that there was some initial event called that there was some initial event called the big bang that resulted in space the big bang that resulted in space the big bang that resulted in space expanding. expanding. expanding. The energy of that big bang ultimately The energy of that big bang ultimately The energy of that big bang ultimately transmuted into particles. Those transmuted into particles. Those transmuted into particles. Those particles were wafting through space. particles were wafting through space. particles were wafting through space. Gravity caused collections of those Gravity caused collections of those Gravity caused collections of those particles to clump together. Some of particles to clump together. Some of particles to clump together. Some of them clumped together into stars like them clumped together into stars like them clumped together into stars like our sun. Some of them clumped together our sun. Some of them clumped together our sun. Some of them clumped together into planets like our earth. And on our into planets like our earth. And on our into planets like our earth. And on our earth, some of those particles began to earth, some of those particles began to earth, some of those particles began to coalesce into more exotic and refined coalesce into more exotic and refined coalesce into more exotic and refined forms, giving rise to atoms, giving rise forms, giving rise to atoms, giving rise forms, giving rise to atoms, giving rise to molecules. And over the course of to molecules. And over the course of to molecules. And over the course of billions of years on our planet, those billions of years on our planet, those billions of years on our planet, those little molecules grew into more complex

little molecules grew into more complex little molecules grew into more complex structures, ultimately giving first structures, ultimately giving first structures, ultimately giving first cells. And once you have a cell, cells cells. And once you have a cell, cells cells. And once you have a cell, cells divide and they come together into divide and they come together into divide and they come together into larger multi-ellular aggregates that larger multi-ellular aggregates that larger multi-ellular aggregates that give rise to the beginnings of life in give rise to the beginnings of life in give rise to the beginnings of life in the ocean. And those life forms evolve the ocean. And those life forms evolve the ocean. And those life forms evolve further until they can walk out of the further until they can walk out of the further until they can walk out of the ocean and begin to live on land. and ocean and begin to live on land. and ocean and begin to live on land. and they begin to stand upright and after a they begin to stand upright and after a they begin to stand upright and after a billion more years you and I are sitting billion more years you and I are sitting billion more years you and I are sitting here at this table and so yeah there is here at this table and so yeah there is here at this table and so yeah there is a story that's the brief version that a story that's the brief version that a story that's the brief version that takes us from the big bang to us on takes us from the big bang to us on takes us from the big bang to us on planet earth planet earth planet earth >> is it theoretical that this is all just >> is it theoretical that this is all just >> is it theoretical that this is all just a I was going to say perception but the a I was going to say perception but the a I was going to say perception but the other word might be a simulation of other word might be a simulation of other word might be a simulation of sorts theoretically we don't even know sorts theoretically we don't even know sorts theoretically we don't even know if yesterday exists or if it was just we if yesterday exists or if it was just we if yesterday exists or if it was just we were just implanted with the memory of were just implanted with the memory of were just implanted with the memory of it it it >> absolutely Hey, we're in this age of AI >> absolutely Hey, we're in this age of AI >> absolutely Hey, we're in this age of AI now. And I wondered if this insurgence now. And I wondered if this insurgence now. And I wondered if this insurgence of AI and how powerful it is and if you of AI and how powerful it is and if you of AI and how powerful it is and if you imagine it on a sort of an exponential imagine it on a sort of an exponential imagine it on a sort of an exponential curve, has it made you question some of curve, has it made you question some of curve, has it made you question some of your like fundamental assumptions about your like fundamental assumptions about your like fundamental assumptions about that overarching question of why we're that overarching question of why we're that overarching question of why we're here?

here? here? >> Well, yeah. In fact, even before AI, we >> Well, yeah. In fact, even before AI, we >> Well, yeah. In fact, even before AI, we were tustling with the very notion that were tustling with the very notion that were tustling with the very notion that you mentioned, which is you mentioned, which is you mentioned, which is all we ever have access to all we ever have access to all we ever have access to is now, right? We can try to remember is now, right? We can try to remember is now, right? We can try to remember yesterday's now, but as you say, that's yesterday's now, but as you say, that's yesterday's now, but as you say, that's happening right now through patterns happening right now through patterns happening right now through patterns that are in my brain or yours that we that are in my brain or yours that we that are in my brain or yours that we think reflect something that happened think reflect something that happened think reflect something that happened yesterday or the day before, but that's yesterday or the day before, but that's yesterday or the day before, but that's a leap of faith, right? So, there's a a leap of faith, right? So, there's a a leap of faith, right? So, there's a kind of, you know, skeptical nightmare kind of, you know, skeptical nightmare kind of, you know, skeptical nightmare scenario where we begin to question scenario where we begin to question scenario where we begin to question everything. You know, is this table everything. You know, is this table everything. You know, is this table real? Am I really here? Am I a real? Am I really here? Am I a real? Am I really here? Am I a simulation sitting inside some computer simulation sitting inside some computer simulation sitting inside some computer right now? Are we in the matrix right right now? Are we in the matrix right right now? Are we in the matrix right now? These are the kinds of things which now? These are the kinds of things which now? These are the kinds of things which you naturally can come to when you take you naturally can come to when you take you naturally can come to when you take a deeply skeptical attitude to the a deeply skeptical attitude to the a deeply skeptical attitude to the nature of reality. Bottom line is I nature of reality. Bottom line is I nature of reality. Bottom line is I can't convince myself and certainly I can't convince myself and certainly I can't convince myself and certainly I can't convince you that we're not in the can't convince you that we're not in the can't convince you that we're not in the matrix. Why? We could be. It is matrix. Why? We could be. It is matrix. Why? We could be. It is logically consistent and sensible to logically consistent and sensible to logically consistent and sensible to imagine that you and I are sitting in imagine that you and I are sitting in imagine that you and I are sitting in some computer. Maybe it's not, you know, some computer. Maybe it's not, you know, some computer. Maybe it's not, you know, some dark dystopian computer the way it some dark dystopian computer the way it some dark dystopian computer the way it was in the Matrix. Maybe there's a kid was in the Matrix. Maybe there's a kid was in the Matrix. Maybe there's a kid in, you know, 29th century Earth who's in, you know, 29th century Earth who's in, you know, 29th century Earth who's in his or her garage right now and they in his or her garage right now and they in his or her garage right now and they came up this wonderful computer program came up this wonderful computer program came up this wonderful computer program and they're simulating historical

and they're simulating historical and they're simulating historical episodes in the past and they happen to episodes in the past and they happen to episodes in the past and they happen to allow you and I to exist sitting at this allow you and I to exist sitting at this allow you and I to exist sitting at this table. I don't know how to prove that table. I don't know how to prove that table. I don't know how to prove that that's not the case. What I can say is that's not the case. What I can say is that's not the case. What I can say is if I'm willing to buy into that, if I'm willing to buy into that, if I'm willing to buy into that, everything falls apart. I can't trust everything falls apart. I can't trust everything falls apart. I can't trust any I can't trust my reasoning. I can't any I can't trust my reasoning. I can't any I can't trust my reasoning. I can't even trust my thinking that it's logical even trust my thinking that it's logical even trust my thinking that it's logical to imagine that individual because that to imagine that individual because that to imagine that individual because that individual may have implanted the false individual may have implanted the false individual may have implanted the false reasoning that it could be logical for reasoning that it could be logical for reasoning that it could be logical for us to be sitting here. What do I do at us to be sitting here. What do I do at us to be sitting here. What do I do at that point? And so, as a scientist, what that point? And so, as a scientist, what that point? And so, as a scientist, what I say is, I'm going to allow that as a I say is, I'm going to allow that as a I say is, I'm going to allow that as a possibility, and then I'm going to park possibility, and then I'm going to park possibility, and then I'm going to park it right over here. I allow it. I look it right over here. I allow it. I look it right over here. I allow it. I look at it every so often. I say, "That's at it every so often. I say, "That's at it every so often. I say, "That's scary, that possibility that we're in a scary, that possibility that we're in a scary, that possibility that we're in a simulation, but I'm not going to let it simulation, but I'm not going to let it simulation, but I'm not going to let it overwhelm me because then I'll be overwhelm me because then I'll be overwhelm me because then I'll be stuck." The simulation argument stuck." The simulation argument stuck." The simulation argument popularized by philosopher Nick Boston popularized by philosopher Nick Boston popularized by philosopher Nick Boston relies on probability. relies on probability. relies on probability. >> Yeah. Um, it essentially says that if an >> Yeah. Um, it essentially says that if an >> Yeah. Um, it essentially says that if an advanced civilization, which I would advanced civilization, which I would advanced civilization, which I would argue we're an advanced civilization, argue we're an advanced civilization, argue we're an advanced civilization, ever develops the technological capacity ever develops the technological capacity ever develops the technological capacity to run conscious highfidelity computer to run conscious highfidelity computer to run conscious highfidelity computer simulations of their ancestors, they simulations of their ancestors, they simulations of their ancestors, they will likely run millions of or billions will likely run millions of or billions will likely run millions of or billions of them. And because these simulated of them. And because these simulated of them. And because these simulated realities would vastly outnumber the realities would vastly outnumber the realities would vastly outnumber the single raw physical universe, any given single raw physical universe, any given single raw physical universe, any given conscious observer is statistically conscious observer is statistically conscious observer is statistically almost certainly living inside a almost certainly living inside a almost certainly living inside a software code rather than base reality.

software code rather than base reality. software code rather than base reality. The big assumption is, can you create a The big assumption is, can you create a The big assumption is, can you create a computer program that has computer program that has computer program that has self-awareness, that has consciousness? self-awareness, that has consciousness? self-awareness, that has consciousness? [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] You know, nobody knows the answer to You know, nobody knows the answer to You know, nobody knows the answer to that. I' I've spoken to some of today's that. I' I've spoken to some of today's that. I' I've spoken to some of today's AI researchers who think that chat GPT AI researchers who think that chat GPT AI researchers who think that chat GPT is conscious, that who think that Claude is conscious, that who think that Claude is conscious, that who think that Claude is conscious. Now, I look I I talk to is conscious. Now, I look I I talk to is conscious. Now, I look I I talk to them and I'm respectful. That's the kind them and I'm respectful. That's the kind them and I'm respectful. That's the kind of person I am, but in the back of my of person I am, but in the back of my of person I am, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, are you kidding me? You mind, I'm like, are you kidding me? You mind, I'm like, are you kidding me? You really think that chat GPT has feelings really think that chat GPT has feelings really think that chat GPT has feelings that it thinks about its own existence that it thinks about its own existence that it thinks about its own existence and has anxieties? and has anxieties? and has anxieties? I think it can simulate that. But I think it can simulate that. But I think it can simulate that. But regardless, regardless, regardless, I don't think today's technology is I don't think today's technology is I don't think today's technology is there. Is it possible that tomorrow's there. Is it possible that tomorrow's there. Is it possible that tomorrow's technology broadly defined a year, five technology broadly defined a year, five technology broadly defined a year, five years, a hundred years really will yield years, a hundred years really will yield years, a hundred years really will yield self-aware, sentient artificial systems? self-aware, sentient artificial systems? self-aware, sentient artificial systems? Yeah, I do think it's possible. Now, not Yeah, I do think it's possible. Now, not Yeah, I do think it's possible. Now, not everybody agrees with that. I mean, no everybody agrees with that. I mean, no everybody agrees with that. I mean, no one knows, right? It's a logical one knows, right? It's a logical one knows, right? It's a logical possibility, but we don't know. Let us possibility, but we don't know. Let us possibility, but we don't know. Let us assume following Nick Bostonramm that assume following Nick Bostonramm that assume following Nick Bostonramm that consciousness can be created in a consciousness can be created in a consciousness can be created in a mechanical box.

mechanical box. mechanical box. If that's possible, then Nick simply If that's possible, then Nick simply If that's possible, then Nick simply says, "Look, our progyny in the future, says, "Look, our progyny in the future, says, "Look, our progyny in the future, they're going to be fascinated with they're going to be fascinated with they're going to be fascinated with creating sentient systems." And so, creating sentient systems." And so, creating sentient systems." And so, they're going to create millions and they're going to create millions and they're going to create millions and billions and trillions of of sentient billions and trillions of of sentient billions and trillions of of sentient systems in the box. And they're going to systems in the box. And they're going to systems in the box. And they're going to get really elaborate and create a get really elaborate and create a get really elaborate and create a version where the sentient beings are version where the sentient beings are version where the sentient beings are led to think that they're on a planet. led to think that they're on a planet. led to think that they're on a planet. And in fact, they're going to do it a And in fact, they're going to do it a And in fact, they're going to do it a thousand billion trillion different thousand billion trillion different thousand billion trillion different ways. Some are going to be a planet like ways. Some are going to be a planet like ways. Some are going to be a planet like Earth. Some are going to be on a planet Earth. Some are going to be on a planet Earth. Some are going to be on a planet like Mars. Some are going to be a planet like Mars. Some are going to be a planet like Mars. Some are going to be a planet like around some star in the Andromeda like around some star in the Andromeda like around some star in the Andromeda galaxy. They're going to be an enormous galaxy. They're going to be an enormous galaxy. They're going to be an enormous number of simulated beings. number of simulated beings. number of simulated beings. Enormous number of universes that are Enormous number of universes that are Enormous number of universes that are simulated. So the question is if we have simulated. So the question is if we have simulated. So the question is if we have one real universe, let's say this is one real universe, let's say this is one real universe, let's say this is real, and a gazillion artificial ones real, and a gazillion artificial ones real, and a gazillion artificial ones that are created in various laptop that are created in various laptop that are created in various laptop computers of the future. We're one of a computers of the future. We're one of a computers of the future. We're one of a billion trillion zillion billion trillion zillion billion trillion zillion instantiations of people who think that instantiations of people who think that instantiations of people who think that they're real. Now, one truly is real.

they're real. Now, one truly is real. they're real. Now, one truly is real. The other are not real. So, if you're The other are not real. So, if you're The other are not real. So, if you're just talking about odds, the odds are just talking about odds, the odds are just talking about odds, the odds are anybody who thinks they're real is not. anybody who thinks they're real is not. anybody who thinks they're real is not. The odds are anybody who's got a The odds are anybody who's got a The odds are anybody who's got a self-aware sense of the world is self-aware sense of the world is self-aware sense of the world is probably in a simulation. probably in a simulation. probably in a simulation. >> You used anxiety as a sort of a proxy >> You used anxiety as a sort of a proxy >> You used anxiety as a sort of a proxy for consciousness almost like the being for consciousness almost like the being for consciousness almost like the being able to feel these things. able to feel these things. able to feel these things. >> Yeah. I guess the question then becomes >> Yeah. I guess the question then becomes >> Yeah. I guess the question then becomes like what is what is it? What is like what is what is it? What is like what is what is it? What is anxiety? anxiety? anxiety? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is it an electrical signal going through >> Is it an electrical signal going through >> Is it an electrical signal going through from from from >> I do think it is. I think that love and >> I do think it is. I think that love and >> I do think it is. I think that love and hate and anxiety and jealousy and hate and anxiety and jealousy and hate and anxiety and jealousy and gratitude and grief and all human gratitude and grief and all human gratitude and grief and all human emotion is nothing but electrical emotion is nothing but electrical emotion is nothing but electrical impulses going through our brains. And impulses going through our brains. And impulses going through our brains. And electrical impulse is just particles electrical impulse is just particles electrical impulse is just particles moving or strings moving along various moving or strings moving along various moving or strings moving along various connections. I think that is all that it connections. I think that is all that it connections. I think that is all that it is. Now, some people hear it and they're is. Now, some people hear it and they're is. Now, some people hear it and they're like, "Wow, that is a pretty bleak way like, "Wow, that is a pretty bleak way like, "Wow, that is a pretty bleak way of looking at life." We're these of looking at life." We're these of looking at life." We're these wondrous beings who can have all this wondrous beings who can have all this wondrous beings who can have all this emotion, right? The emotion captured by emotion, right? The emotion captured by emotion, right? The emotion captured by Shakespeare in the sonnetss, right? The Shakespeare in the sonnetss, right? The Shakespeare in the sonnetss, right? The emotion captured by Beethoven in the emotion captured by Beethoven in the emotion captured by Beethoven in the ninth symphony, you can't reduce that to ninth symphony, you can't reduce that to ninth symphony, you can't reduce that to electrical signals in the brain. And I electrical signals in the brain. And I electrical signals in the brain. And I say, "Yeah, you can. I really do think say, "Yeah, you can. I really do think say, "Yeah, you can. I really do think that you can. I don't think that that you can. I don't think that that you can. I don't think that diminishes the wonder of what we can diminishes the wonder of what we can diminishes the wonder of what we can feel and sense and articulate and feel and sense and articulate and feel and sense and articulate and express through the various ways that we express through the various ways that we express through the various ways that we have be it through music or theater or have be it through music or theater or have be it through music or theater or art or literature or poetry. Yeah, I am art or literature or poetry. Yeah, I am art or literature or poetry. Yeah, I am as aruck by our capacity to create as as

as aruck by our capacity to create as as as aruck by our capacity to create as as anybody else. But in the end, I think it anybody else. But in the end, I think it anybody else. But in the end, I think it all does reduce to electrical impulses all does reduce to electrical impulses all does reduce to electrical impulses going through this gray piece of meat in going through this gray piece of meat in going through this gray piece of meat in this bone cage that's sitting on our this bone cage that's sitting on our this bone cage that's sitting on our shoulders. shoulders. shoulders. >> And if you imagine any rate of >> And if you imagine any rate of >> And if you imagine any rate of improvement from today, presumably at improvement from today, presumably at improvement from today, presumably at some point in the future, our future some point in the future, our future some point in the future, our future ances, our future progyny, you called ances, our future progyny, you called ances, our future progyny, you called them, them, them, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> would be able to create. >> would be able to create. >> would be able to create. >> Why not? That's my view. I don't think >> Why not? That's my view. I don't think >> Why not? That's my view. I don't think there's something special about the there's something special about the there's something special about the brain as a substrate. I think as long as brain as a substrate. I think as long as brain as a substrate. I think as long as you have the same electrical impulses, you have the same electrical impulses, you have the same electrical impulses, if they're housed in silicon inside a if they're housed in silicon inside a if they're housed in silicon inside a metallic box, I don't think that makes metallic box, I don't think that makes metallic box, I don't think that makes them fundamentally different than what's them fundamentally different than what's them fundamentally different than what's happening inside of our heads. Now, happening inside of our heads. Now, happening inside of our heads. Now, philosophers argue this, you know, philosophers argue this, you know, philosophers argue this, you know, psychologists argue this. They say, "No, psychologists argue this. They say, "No, psychologists argue this. They say, "No, no, no, no. It's not just the brain. no, no, no. It's not just the brain. no, no, no. It's not just the brain. It's the brain. It's the connection to It's the brain. It's the connection to It's the brain. It's the connection to the body. It's the tactile sense of the the body. It's the tactile sense of the the body. It's the tactile sense of the world. It's the olfactory sense of the world. It's the olfactory sense of the world. It's the olfactory sense of the world. It's the visual sense. It's only world. It's the visual sense. It's only world. It's the visual sense. It's only when you put it all together that you when you put it all together that you when you put it all together that you get the full experience of what it means get the full experience of what it means get the full experience of what it means to be self-aware, self-aware human to be self-aware, self-aware human to be self-aware, self-aware human being. And my view is well maybe that's being. And my view is well maybe that's being. And my view is well maybe that's true. But if so, give the artificial true. But if so, give the artificial true. But if so, give the artificial version tactile sense and alactory sense version tactile sense and alactory sense version tactile sense and alactory sense and visual sense. We will have the and visual sense. We will have the and visual sense. We will have the capacity to do this. And at that point, capacity to do this. And at that point, capacity to do this. And at that point, I just don't see a fundamental I just don't see a fundamental I just don't see a fundamental difference between the artificial difference between the artificial difference between the artificial version and shall we call it the version and shall we call it the version and shall we call it the organic. And so, yeah, I think there's a organic. And so, yeah, I think there's a organic. And so, yeah, I think there's a really interesting argument to be made

really interesting argument to be made really interesting argument to be made that simulations will outnumber real that simulations will outnumber real that simulations will outnumber real worlds and therefore there's a chance worlds and therefore there's a chance worlds and therefore there's a chance that right now we are in one of those that right now we are in one of those that right now we are in one of those simulated worlds. simulated worlds. simulated worlds. >> Does it change anything even if that's >> Does it change anything even if that's >> Does it change anything even if that's true? No, I don't think it does. And I true? No, I don't think it does. And I true? No, I don't think it does. And I think that's the beauty. If I'm in a think that's the beauty. If I'm in a think that's the beauty. If I'm in a simulation, I'm going to live out my simulation, I'm going to live out my simulation, I'm going to live out my life in this simulation to the fullest. life in this simulation to the fullest. life in this simulation to the fullest. >> Now, I'd like to think that as a >> Now, I'd like to think that as a >> Now, I'd like to think that as a physicist, what I do, what my colleagues physicist, what I do, what my colleagues physicist, what I do, what my colleagues do is try to figure out the laws of the do is try to figure out the laws of the do is try to figure out the laws of the universe at large. But if we're in a universe at large. But if we're in a universe at large. But if we're in a simulation and all we're doing is simulation and all we're doing is simulation and all we're doing is figuring out the laws that the figuring out the laws that the figuring out the laws that the 15-year-old futuristic kid decided to 15-year-old futuristic kid decided to 15-year-old futuristic kid decided to impose on this artificial world, hey, impose on this artificial world, hey, impose on this artificial world, hey, that's not a bad way to spend your time, that's not a bad way to spend your time, that's not a bad way to spend your time, too. too. too. >> On this subject of AI, do you I mean, a >> On this subject of AI, do you I mean, a >> On this subject of AI, do you I mean, a lot of people that have sat here, people lot of people that have sat here, people lot of people that have sat here, people like Jeffrey Hinton, have told me that like Jeffrey Hinton, have told me that like Jeffrey Hinton, have told me that it's quite inconceivable that when there it's quite inconceivable that when there it's quite inconceivable that when there is a more intelligent life form on this is a more intelligent life form on this is a more intelligent life form on this planet, i.e. AI which is accelerating in planet, i.e. AI which is accelerating in planet, i.e. AI which is accelerating in its intelligence towards super its intelligence towards super its intelligence towards super intelligence and AGI and all these terms intelligence and AGI and all these terms intelligence and AGI and all these terms that these smart people use. It's that these smart people use. It's that these smart people use. It's inconceivable that we will remain in inconceivable that we will remain in inconceivable that we will remain in control.

control. control. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Logically that kind of also stacks up. >> Logically that kind of also stacks up. >> Logically that kind of also stacks up. >> It does. But but I think there are >> It does. But but I think there are >> It does. But but I think there are alternatives. We tend to speak very much alternatives. We tend to speak very much alternatives. We tend to speak very much at the extremes, right? Humans are in at the extremes, right? Humans are in at the extremes, right? Humans are in control. AI is in control. AI wipes us control. AI is in control. AI wipes us control. AI is in control. AI wipes us out for reasons that might be benign or out for reasons that might be benign or out for reasons that might be benign or might be dystopian. It seems to me that might be dystopian. It seems to me that might be dystopian. It seems to me that what will likely happen is something what will likely happen is something what will likely happen is something more in the middle which is we are going more in the middle which is we are going more in the middle which is we are going to work with artificial systems. We're to work with artificial systems. We're to work with artificial systems. We're doing it right now and look how quickly doing it right now and look how quickly doing it right now and look how quickly we have acclimated to a world that would we have acclimated to a world that would we have acclimated to a world that would be unthinkable in 2021. There are many be unthinkable in 2021. There are many be unthinkable in 2021. There are many examples now, but there's a beautiful examples now, but there's a beautiful examples now, but there's a beautiful one that's on my mind. An 80-year-old one that's on my mind. An 80-year-old one that's on my mind. An 80-year-old mathematical conjecture. I believe it's mathematical conjecture. I believe it's mathematical conjecture. I believe it's called the Jacobian conjecture called the Jacobian conjecture called the Jacobian conjecture was solved very recently by a was solved very recently by a was solved very recently by a mathematician using AI. I see us mathematician using AI. I see us mathematician using AI. I see us blending with AI. Not necessarily that blending with AI. Not necessarily that blending with AI. Not necessarily that we have implants, but maybe we will. But we have implants, but maybe we will. But we have implants, but maybe we will. But there will not be as sharp a distinction there will not be as sharp a distinction there will not be as sharp a distinction between the biological intelligence and between the biological intelligence and between the biological intelligence and the artificial intelligence. And that to the artificial intelligence. And that to the artificial intelligence. And that to me, if that ultimately yields a new life me, if that ultimately yields a new life me, if that ultimately yields a new life form that no longer form that no longer form that no longer can be called human, can be called human, can be called human, that may be the way things evolve. And that may be the way things evolve. And that may be the way things evolve. And so evolution is something that is

so evolution is something that is so evolution is something that is inherent to how we got here. inherent to how we got here. inherent to how we got here. Why would we think that this moment in Why would we think that this moment in Why would we think that this moment in the evolutionary progression was the end the evolutionary progression was the end the evolutionary progression was the end of it all? We weren't going to continue of it all? We weren't going to continue of it all? We weren't going to continue to evolve. And maybe the continuation of to evolve. And maybe the continuation of to evolve. And maybe the continuation of our evolution is in partnership with the our evolution is in partnership with the our evolution is in partnership with the artificial intelligence systems that we artificial intelligence systems that we artificial intelligence systems that we ourselves create ourselves create ourselves create >> that we give birth to. >> that we give birth to. >> that we give birth to. >> Yeah, it's us, right? It's our creation, >> Yeah, it's us, right? It's our creation, >> Yeah, it's us, right? It's our creation, you know, it's not an alien. We haven't you know, it's not an alien. We haven't you know, it's not an alien. We haven't been taken over. And so, yeah, I think been taken over. And so, yeah, I think been taken over. And so, yeah, I think that is a a real possible way that this that is a a real possible way that this that is a a real possible way that this story plays out. story plays out. story plays out. >> How do you feel about it? >> How do you feel about it? >> How do you feel about it? >> I am fine with it. You know, I think >> I am fine with it. You know, I think >> I am fine with it. You know, I think that we tend to become very attached that we tend to become very attached that we tend to become very attached >> to the way things are and we gain a >> to the way things are and we gain a >> to the way things are and we gain a sense of the way things are is the way sense of the way things are is the way sense of the way things are is the way it will always be. I think that's a it will always be. I think that's a it will always be. I think that's a natural way that we humans have lived natural way that we humans have lived natural way that we humans have lived our lives. Why? Because the time scales our lives. Why? Because the time scales our lives. Why? Because the time scales for change in our past have been for change in our past have been for change in our past have been relatively slow, right? We lived what relatively slow, right? We lived what relatively slow, right? We lived what 30, 40, 50, call it 80 years, 100 years, 30, 40, 50, call it 80 years, 100 years, 30, 40, 50, call it 80 years, 100 years, whatever. But the time scales for change whatever. But the time scales for change whatever. But the time scales for change were typically much larger than that.

were typically much larger than that. were typically much larger than that. The time scales for political change and The time scales for political change and The time scales for political change and the time scales for technological change the time scales for technological change the time scales for technological change much larger. So as a species, we've much larger. So as a species, we've much larger. So as a species, we've grown accustomed to the thought that grown accustomed to the thought that grown accustomed to the thought that yeah, what we see is how it will always yeah, what we see is how it will always yeah, what we see is how it will always be. But of course, as we look back be. But of course, as we look back be. But of course, as we look back through history, we can see the changes. through history, we can see the changes. through history, we can see the changes. And so we're uncomfortable with change And so we're uncomfortable with change And so we're uncomfortable with change because we're unus to living through because we're unus to living through because we're unus to living through that kind of change at the kind of speed that kind of change at the kind of speed that kind of change at the kind of speed that we are and will continue to that we are and will continue to that we are and will continue to encounter. But I think we just have to encounter. But I think we just have to encounter. But I think we just have to get with it. Now look, I don't want AI get with it. Now look, I don't want AI get with it. Now look, I don't want AI system to wipe us out. Don't get me system to wipe us out. Don't get me system to wipe us out. Don't get me wrong. But I think if we recognize that wrong. But I think if we recognize that wrong. But I think if we recognize that change is happening, will happening, we change is happening, will happening, we change is happening, will happening, we can embrace it in a way that will have can embrace it in a way that will have can embrace it in a way that will have an outcome that will be acceptable, that an outcome that will be acceptable, that an outcome that will be acceptable, that will in fact be wonderful in the things will in fact be wonderful in the things will in fact be wonderful in the things that it will allow us to do. that it will allow us to do. that it will allow us to do. >> I'm quite curious. You talked about AI >> I'm quite curious. You talked about AI >> I'm quite curious. You talked about AI being able to solve that complex math being able to solve that complex math being able to solve that complex math problem. problem. problem. >> I'm wondering if with accelerating ever >> I'm wondering if with accelerating ever >> I'm wondering if with accelerating ever more intelligent AI, there's a bunch of more intelligent AI, there's a bunch of more intelligent AI, there's a bunch of other things within physics that you other things within physics that you other things within physics that you think might become possible in the near think might become possible in the near think might become possible in the near term. I mean, one of them I was thinking term. I mean, one of them I was thinking term. I mean, one of them I was thinking about, we can talk about some of the about, we can talk about some of the about, we can talk about some of the others that I have in my mind, but and others that I have in my mind, but and others that I have in my mind, but and any others that you think are any others that you think are any others that you think are interesting, but one of them is us being interesting, but one of them is us being interesting, but one of them is us being able to live forever.

able to live forever. able to live forever. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you think we're going to be able to >> Do you think we're going to be able to >> Do you think we're going to be able to live forever? live forever? live forever? >> Yeah, that would be a that would be a >> Yeah, that would be a that would be a >> Yeah, that would be a that would be a good one. I don't think that death is good one. I don't think that death is good one. I don't think that death is inevitable inevitable inevitable in the sense that in the sense that in the sense that death can be thought of as the increase death can be thought of as the increase death can be thought of as the increase in entropy, the increase in disorder in in entropy, the increase in disorder in in entropy, the increase in disorder in a physical system. And when the entropy a physical system. And when the entropy a physical system. And when the entropy gets too large, the system can't gets too large, the system can't gets too large, the system can't function the way it once did. And that's function the way it once did. And that's function the way it once did. And that's really what we call death, right? That's really what we call death, right? That's really what we call death, right? That's really what it means. And so in really what it means. And so in really what it means. And so in principle, we can imagine harnessing principle, we can imagine harnessing principle, we can imagine harnessing some of the processes that have caused some of the processes that have caused some of the processes that have caused the degradation in the human body that the degradation in the human body that the degradation in the human body that have naturally resulted in us typically have naturally resulted in us typically have naturally resulted in us typically not living more than 100, 120 years. I not living more than 100, 120 years. I not living more than 100, 120 years. I mean, people like, you know, David mean, people like, you know, David mean, people like, you know, David Sinclair who I've spoken to about things Sinclair who I've spoken to about things Sinclair who I've spoken to about things like this. Yeah, you know, I think we like this. Yeah, you know, I think we like this. Yeah, you know, I think we can forestoall the kinds of degradation. can forestoall the kinds of degradation. can forestoall the kinds of degradation. Now, if you're talking to me, I think on Now, if you're talking to me, I think on Now, if you're talking to me, I think on time scales that are so much longer than time scales that are so much longer than time scales that are so much longer than a human life. I think about time scales a human life. I think about time scales a human life. I think about time scales that speak to the entire that speak to the entire that speak to the entire time frame of the cosmos from beginning time frame of the cosmos from beginning time frame of the cosmos from beginning to the closest that science can take us to the closest that science can take us to the closest that science can take us to the very end. And on those scales, I to the very end. And on those scales, I to the very end. And on those scales, I don't think that we will be able to don't think that we will be able to don't think that we will be able to forstall death. But please note the time forstall death. But please note the time forstall death. But please note the time scales I'm talking about are ludicrous scales I'm talking about are ludicrous scales I'm talking about are ludicrous compared to any time scale that we are compared to any time scale that we are compared to any time scale that we are familiar with. 100 more years, 200 more familiar with. 100 more years, 200 more familiar with. 100 more years, 200 more years, maybe 500 more years. I don't

years, maybe 500 more years. I don't years, maybe 500 more years. I don't think anybody can really say for sure. I think anybody can really say for sure. I think anybody can really say for sure. I do think that is within the possible do think that is within the possible do think that is within the possible range of what science and medicine will range of what science and medicine will range of what science and medicine will ultimately be able to accomplish. And I ultimately be able to accomplish. And I ultimately be able to accomplish. And I will say though, you know, I I read a will say though, you know, I I read a will say though, you know, I I read a book I was about in my 20s called The book I was about in my 20s called The book I was about in my 20s called The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. He was Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. He was Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. He was a social psychologist, I guess, a social psychologist, I guess, a social psychologist, I guess, sociologist who believed strongly that sociologist who believed strongly that sociologist who believed strongly that so much of what we do in our lives is so much of what we do in our lives is so much of what we do in our lives is driven by our awareness of our own driven by our awareness of our own driven by our awareness of our own mortality. And as I began to think more mortality. And as I began to think more mortality. And as I began to think more and more about that, it made more and and more about that, it made more and and more about that, it made more and more sense to me, which had a dual more sense to me, which had a dual more sense to me, which had a dual effect on me. very interesting framework effect on me. very interesting framework effect on me. very interesting framework to think about your life within the to think about your life within the to think about your life within the context of recognizing its finite context of recognizing its finite context of recognizing its finite nature. But the flip side of that is nature. But the flip side of that is nature. But the flip side of that is you're constantly thinking about your you're constantly thinking about your you're constantly thinking about your own death, you know, which, you know, is own death, you know, which, you know, is own death, you know, which, you know, is a a curious way to go about your life. a a curious way to go about your life. a a curious way to go about your life. But I don't think the denial of death But I don't think the denial of death But I don't think the denial of death that human motivation would go away if that human motivation would go away if that human motivation would go away if we live 200 years or 300 or 500. Yeah, we live 200 years or 300 or 500. Yeah, we live 200 years or 300 or 500. Yeah, we'd have longer lifespans. we'd be able we'd have longer lifespans. we'd be able we'd have longer lifespans. we'd be able to do more things. But, you know, if we to do more things. But, you know, if we to do more things. But, you know, if we live to 500, you know, as we approach live to 500, you know, as we approach live to 500, you know, as we approach 450, 475, we'll be thinking the exact 450, 475, we'll be thinking the exact 450, 475, we'll be thinking the exact same thoughts that we think now as we same thoughts that we think now as we same thoughts that we think now as we approach 70 or 80. It'll be no approach 70 or 80. It'll be no approach 70 or 80. It'll be no different. And so, from a fundamental different. And so, from a fundamental different. And so, from a fundamental perspective, yeah, I would choose to perspective, yeah, I would choose to perspective, yeah, I would choose to live longer, but I don't think it live longer, but I don't think it live longer, but I don't think it changes anything fundamentally.

changes anything fundamentally. changes anything fundamentally. >> I find it quite interesting. I was >> I find it quite interesting. I was >> I find it quite interesting. I was actually writing a letter about this actually writing a letter about this actually writing a letter about this sort of an article to myself really sort of an article to myself really sort of an article to myself really about this yesterday about this idea of about this yesterday about this idea of about this yesterday about this idea of long-termism and how when you just long-termism and how when you just long-termism and how when you just change the time horizon of something the change the time horizon of something the change the time horizon of something the decisions you make today are different. decisions you make today are different. decisions you make today are different. Yeah. And a simple way of explaining Yeah. And a simple way of explaining Yeah. And a simple way of explaining this through the context of like this through the context of like this through the context of like business would be if I told you to build business would be if I told you to build business would be if I told you to build a business then I gave you one year and a business then I gave you one year and a business then I gave you one year and unlimited resources but you had to build unlimited resources but you had to build unlimited resources but you had to build it as big as you could it as big as you could it as big as you could >> you would take certain shortcuts >> you would take certain shortcuts >> you would take certain shortcuts >> and you would maybe not think about the >> and you would maybe not think about the >> and you would maybe not think about the foundations but if I gave you 20 years foundations but if I gave you 20 years foundations but if I gave you 20 years you'd really make great foundations and you'd really make great foundations and you'd really make great foundations and then you know you'd build up from there then you know you'd build up from there then you know you'd build up from there and I think about the same in our lives and I think about the same in our lives and I think about the same in our lives because we do have this sort of sort of because we do have this sort of sort of because we do have this sort of sort of inbuilt time horizon. Okay, I'm going to inbuilt time horizon. Okay, I'm going to inbuilt time horizon. Okay, I'm going to live maybe 80 years and then I'm 30 and live maybe 80 years and then I'm 30 and live maybe 80 years and then I'm 30 and then 40 and then kids and then I start then 40 and then kids and then I start then 40 and then kids and then I start to, you know, change and maybe at some to, you know, change and maybe at some to, you know, change and maybe at some deeper level we are making a certain set deeper level we are making a certain set deeper level we are making a certain set of decisions based on that time horizon of decisions based on that time horizon of decisions based on that time horizon that we wouldn't make otherwise. that we wouldn't make otherwise. that we wouldn't make otherwise. >> Yeah. I mean when I was 20 or 30, you >> Yeah. I mean when I was 20 or 30, you >> Yeah. I mean when I was 20 or 30, you know, even though I had this mindset know, even though I had this mindset know, even though I had this mindset that was inculcated by reading Becker's that was inculcated by reading Becker's that was inculcated by reading Becker's book, there was a certain sense of an book, there was a certain sense of an book, there was a certain sense of an infinite horizon that somehow was infinite horizon that somehow was infinite horizon that somehow was infusing your decisions, you know, to infusing your decisions, you know, to infusing your decisions, you know, to write a book. Well, that's like a write a book. Well, that's like a write a book. Well, that's like a four-year undertaking. But, you know, four-year undertaking. But, you know, four-year undertaking. But, you know, when you're 30, you're like, "Yeah, when you're 30, you're like, "Yeah, when you're 30, you're like, "Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm going to do that now.

sure. Yeah, I'm going to do that now. sure. Yeah, I'm going to do that now. I'm gonna choose those books with a I'm gonna choose those books with a I'm gonna choose those books with a certain kind of care, right? You know, certain kind of care, right? You know, certain kind of care, right? You know, there's a different kind of mindset that there's a different kind of mindset that there's a different kind of mindset that that is brought to bear. So, I certainly that is brought to bear. So, I certainly that is brought to bear. So, I certainly agree that the time horizon has a agree that the time horizon has a agree that the time horizon has a profound impact on the momentto moment profound impact on the momentto moment profound impact on the momentto moment choices, but the pattern that we humans choices, but the pattern that we humans choices, but the pattern that we humans go through from birth, you know, to go through from birth, you know, to go through from birth, you know, to adolescence, adolescence, adolescence, adulthood, middle age to ultimately old adulthood, middle age to ultimately old adulthood, middle age to ultimately old age if we're lucky and then, you know, age if we're lucky and then, you know, age if we're lucky and then, you know, we disappear. that pattern will persist we disappear. that pattern will persist we disappear. that pattern will persist regardless of what the ultimate scale of regardless of what the ultimate scale of regardless of what the ultimate scale of it is. Whether it's 80 years or 800 it is. Whether it's 80 years or 800 it is. Whether it's 80 years or 800 years, I think that we would go through years, I think that we would go through years, I think that we would go through a very similar kind of rhythmic a very similar kind of rhythmic a very similar kind of rhythmic variation in how we approach the world. variation in how we approach the world. variation in how we approach the world. >> If we were immortal, >> If we were immortal, >> If we were immortal, that would change a lot, but I don't see that would change a lot, but I don't see that would change a lot, but I don't see immortality in our future. immortality in our future. immortality in our future. >> What is the sort of the least inspiring >> What is the sort of the least inspiring >> What is the sort of the least inspiring possibility of the sort of answer to the possibility of the sort of answer to the possibility of the sort of answer to the big question of why we're here? And then big question of why we're here? And then big question of why we're here? And then I'll ask you the the most optimistic I'll ask you the the most optimistic I'll ask you the the most optimistic possibility.

possibility. possibility. >> Yeah. I think the least inspiring would >> Yeah. I think the least inspiring would >> Yeah. I think the least inspiring would be if what if in the end of the day it's be if what if in the end of the day it's be if what if in the end of the day it's all just an accident. There is no deep all just an accident. There is no deep all just an accident. There is no deep explanation for why the world is the way explanation for why the world is the way explanation for why the world is the way it is. There's no deep explanation for it is. There's no deep explanation for it is. There's no deep explanation for why there's something rather than why there's something rather than why there's something rather than nothing. And if that's the truth, I'm on nothing. And if that's the truth, I'm on nothing. And if that's the truth, I'm on board. But it wouldn't feel as enriching board. But it wouldn't feel as enriching board. But it wouldn't feel as enriching as it might be if I can now jump to the as it might be if I can now jump to the as it might be if I can now jump to the other side of your question. You know, other side of your question. You know, other side of your question. You know, if there is a true fundamental answer to if there is a true fundamental answer to if there is a true fundamental answer to the question of why there is anything at the question of why there is anything at the question of why there is anything at all and I recognize that that answer all and I recognize that that answer all and I recognize that that answer dovetales with everything else that dovetales with everything else that dovetales with everything else that we've been developing. That answer we've been developing. That answer we've been developing. That answer ultimately yields quantum mechanics and ultimately yields quantum mechanics and ultimately yields quantum mechanics and yields the general theory of relativity yields the general theory of relativity yields the general theory of relativity and maybe even yields string theory. and maybe even yields string theory. and maybe even yields string theory. That would feel deeply satisfying. Why That would feel deeply satisfying. Why That would feel deeply satisfying. Why did our brain evolve? So we could get did our brain evolve? So we could get did our brain evolve? So we could get the next meal. So we could get shelter. the next meal. So we could get shelter. the next meal. So we could get shelter. So we could get a mate and have progeny, So we could get a mate and have progeny, So we could get a mate and have progeny, allowing our genetic material to allowing our genetic material to allowing our genetic material to propagate into our descendants. Right?

propagate into our descendants. Right? propagate into our descendants. Right? This is what the brain was meant to do. This is what the brain was meant to do. This is what the brain was meant to do. And yet this brain can do so much more And yet this brain can do so much more And yet this brain can do so much more than that. It can figure out the than that. It can figure out the than that. It can figure out the equations of physics. That's that's a equations of physics. That's that's a equations of physics. That's that's a miracle right there. And so the deep miracle right there. And so the deep miracle right there. And so the deep gratification would come from this brain gratification would come from this brain gratification would come from this brain being able to figure out some stuff and being able to figure out some stuff and being able to figure out some stuff and then it dovetales with the deep then it dovetales with the deep then it dovetales with the deep explanation for why there's anything at explanation for why there's anything at explanation for why there's anything at all giving us a coherent narrative from all giving us a coherent narrative from all giving us a coherent narrative from the beginning until today and perhaps on the beginning until today and perhaps on the beginning until today and perhaps on into the far future. into the far future. into the far future. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you think it's going to happen? Do >> Do you think it's going to happen? Do >> Do you think it's going to happen? Do you think we're going to answer that you think we're going to answer that you think we're going to answer that question? question? question? >> I don't know. Nobody does. >> I don't know. Nobody does. >> I don't know. Nobody does. I think all vectors are pointing in a I think all vectors are pointing in a I think all vectors are pointing in a direction that suggests that there are direction that suggests that there are direction that suggests that there are real explanations that it's not just real explanations that it's not just real explanations that it's not just happen stance. There are these particles happen stance. There are these particles happen stance. There are these particles we mentioned before called electrons. we mentioned before called electrons. we mentioned before called electrons. Here it is my spinning electron, right? Here it is my spinning electron, right? Here it is my spinning electron, right? And so when an electron spins, it can And so when an electron spins, it can And so when an electron spins, it can rise to a little magnetic field sort of rise to a little magnetic field sort of rise to a little magnetic field sort of like a trillionth of the strength of the like a trillionth of the strength of the like a trillionth of the strength of the magnetic field of a magnet on your magnetic field of a magnet on your magnetic field of a magnet on your refrigerator. We can use the math of refrigerator. We can use the math of refrigerator. We can use the math of quantum mechanics to predict the quantum mechanics to predict the quantum mechanics to predict the strength of that magnetic field and we strength of that magnetic field and we strength of that magnetic field and we can do it and it comes out 2 point blah can do it and it comes out 2 point blah can do it and it comes out 2 point blah blah blah 15 decimal places long. We can blah blah 15 decimal places long. We can blah blah 15 decimal places long. We can do the math. We then can measure the do the math. We then can measure the do the math. We then can measure the magnetic field and it agrees digit by magnetic field and it agrees digit by magnetic field and it agrees digit by digit by digit by digit by digit with digit by digit by digit by digit with digit by digit by digit by digit with what we calculate.

what we calculate. what we calculate. Our prediction is borne out by our Our prediction is borne out by our Our prediction is borne out by our observations to 15 decimal places. I observations to 15 decimal places. I observations to 15 decimal places. I mean that's breathtaking. We should not mean that's breathtaking. We should not mean that's breathtaking. We should not have been able to do that in some sense have been able to do that in some sense have been able to do that in some sense to understand the world that deeply with to understand the world that deeply with to understand the world that deeply with a brain that really was focused upon, a brain that really was focused upon, a brain that really was focused upon, you know, getting the bison. And so the you know, getting the bison. And so the you know, getting the bison. And so the fact that we can do that suggests to me fact that we can do that suggests to me fact that we can do that suggests to me that there are these deep patterns in that there are these deep patterns in that there are these deep patterns in the world that will ultimately stitch the world that will ultimately stitch the world that will ultimately stitch together into a coherent story. together into a coherent story. together into a coherent story. >> Do you think it could lead us to God? >> Do you think it could lead us to God? >> Do you think it could lead us to God? >> Well, or religion. Yeah, it depends what >> Well, or religion. Yeah, it depends what >> Well, or religion. Yeah, it depends what you mean by God. You know, if you mean you mean by God. You know, if you mean you mean by God. You know, if you mean the kind of God that our forebears the kind of God that our forebears the kind of God that our forebears often have spoken of and people today as often have spoken of and people today as often have spoken of and people today as well, a kind of anthropomorphized being, well, a kind of anthropomorphized being, well, a kind of anthropomorphized being, you know, sitting on the throne in some you know, sitting on the throne in some you know, sitting on the throne in some heavenly place. I suspect not. That heavenly place. I suspect not. That heavenly place. I suspect not. That feels to me very much a human creation feels to me very much a human creation feels to me very much a human creation and a wondrous human creation. And I'm and a wondrous human creation. And I'm and a wondrous human creation. And I'm not of the mindset, as some of my not of the mindset, as some of my not of the mindset, as some of my science colleagues are, that religion is science colleagues are, that religion is science colleagues are, that religion is an enemy of science and needs to be an enemy of science and needs to be an enemy of science and needs to be wiped. It can be, but anything can be an wiped. It can be, but anything can be an wiped. It can be, but anything can be an enemy of anything else. It depends how enemy of anything else. It depends how enemy of anything else. It depends how you use it. I see religion not as a you use it. I see religion not as a you use it. I see religion not as a structure that tries to explain the structure that tries to explain the structure that tries to explain the world in terms of its workings. I see it world in terms of its workings. I see it world in terms of its workings. I see it as a structure that tries to quell our as a structure that tries to quell our as a structure that tries to quell our anxiety, our existential anxiety. Where

anxiety, our existential anxiety. Where anxiety, our existential anxiety. Where did religions come from? They came from did religions come from? They came from did religions come from? They came from our forebears recognizing that they our forebears recognizing that they our forebears recognizing that they would die. So you know our forebears had would die. So you know our forebears had would die. So you know our forebears had these elaborate rituals of burying their these elaborate rituals of burying their these elaborate rituals of burying their dead. There are these wonderful caves um dead. There are these wonderful caves um dead. There are these wonderful caves um in various parts of the world that have in various parts of the world that have in various parts of the world that have been excavated where the grave goods as been excavated where the grave goods as been excavated where the grave goods as they call it involving you know animal they call it involving you know animal they call it involving you know animal teeth stitched together care. It would teeth stitched together care. It would teeth stitched together care. It would take a single individual years to create take a single individual years to create take a single individual years to create the grave goods that are buried with an the grave goods that are buried with an the grave goods that are buried with an individual. Why would they spend the individual. Why would they spend the individual. Why would they spend the time on that? Well, they were imagining time on that? Well, they were imagining time on that? Well, they were imagining that death is not the end. That that that death is not the end. That that that death is not the end. That that individual needed those grave goods for individual needed those grave goods for individual needed those grave goods for their next journey into the afterlife. their next journey into the afterlife. their next journey into the afterlife. And why were they thinking about that? And why were they thinking about that? And why were they thinking about that? Because it's too terrifying Because it's too terrifying Because it's too terrifying to imagine that death is truly the end. to imagine that death is truly the end. to imagine that death is truly the end. And so from that you can see the And so from that you can see the And so from that you can see the glimmers of a religious sensibility glimmers of a religious sensibility glimmers of a religious sensibility emerging where we want to have something emerging where we want to have something emerging where we want to have something that suggests that death is not the end.

that suggests that death is not the end. that suggests that death is not the end. So we invent these beautiful structures So we invent these beautiful structures So we invent these beautiful structures called religions and I say that even called religions and I say that even called religions and I say that even from a personal standpoint. I don't from a personal standpoint. I don't from a personal standpoint. I don't believe in any of the traditional believe in any of the traditional believe in any of the traditional religious practices. Right? I'm Jewish. religious practices. Right? I'm Jewish. religious practices. Right? I'm Jewish. I was raised sort of Jewish more I was raised sort of Jewish more I was raised sort of Jewish more culturally than religiously. culturally than religiously. culturally than religiously. Do I pray on occasion? Yeah, I do. Do I Do I pray on occasion? Yeah, I do. Do I Do I pray on occasion? Yeah, I do. Do I believe that I'm praying to an actual believe that I'm praying to an actual believe that I'm praying to an actual god? I do not. But the act of god? I do not. But the act of god? I do not. But the act of going through the kind of ritual that going through the kind of ritual that going through the kind of ritual that our ancestors did and giving yourself our ancestors did and giving yourself our ancestors did and giving yourself over momentarily to something that you over momentarily to something that you over momentarily to something that you imagine is being more powerful. I think imagine is being more powerful. I think imagine is being more powerful. I think it's deeply in our nature. it's deeply in our nature. it's deeply in our nature. >> So, who are you praying to? >> So, who are you praying to? >> So, who are you praying to? >> I am praying to the universe if I have >> I am praying to the universe if I have >> I am praying to the universe if I have to give a word to it. Recognizing that to give a word to it. Recognizing that to give a word to it. Recognizing that this prayer is going to fall on deaf this prayer is going to fall on deaf this prayer is going to fall on deaf ears because there's nothing else out ears because there's nothing else out ears because there's nothing else out there to hear it, but it makes me feel there to hear it, but it makes me feel there to hear it, but it makes me feel better. And so there's a part of my mind better. And so there's a part of my mind better. And so there's a part of my mind that's willing to allow the scientific that's willing to allow the scientific that's willing to allow the scientific understanding to have its place, but the understanding to have its place, but the understanding to have its place, but the irrational human side to have its place, irrational human side to have its place, irrational human side to have its place, too.

too. too. What is the the most compelling argument What is the the most compelling argument What is the the most compelling argument or idea or experience you've ever or idea or experience you've ever or idea or experience you've ever encountered for a god like the ones we encountered for a god like the ones we encountered for a god like the ones we read about in the Bibles? read about in the Bibles? read about in the Bibles? >> Very little. Very little. You know, >> Very little. Very little. You know, >> Very little. Very little. You know, somebody died in the operating room and somebody died in the operating room and somebody died in the operating room and they were able to uh leave their body they were able to uh leave their body they were able to uh leave their body and see things that they could not and see things that they could not and see things that they could not possibly have seen and then they possibly have seen and then they possibly have seen and then they reported back when they were revived and reported back when they were revived and reported back when they were revived and people like, "Oh, you must have died and people like, "Oh, you must have died and people like, "Oh, you must have died and left your body." That's the only No, no, left your body." That's the only No, no, left your body." That's the only No, no, no, no. The human brain has this no, no. The human brain has this no, no. The human brain has this wonderful imaginative capacity to see wonderful imaginative capacity to see wonderful imaginative capacity to see things inside of its head that it things inside of its head that it things inside of its head that it doesn't literally see. That's what we doesn't literally see. That's what we doesn't literally see. That's what we can do. And so I've never seen a single can do. And so I've never seen a single can do. And so I've never seen a single example where I couldn't feel that I example where I couldn't feel that I example where I couldn't feel that I could give a logical explanation which could give a logical explanation which could give a logical explanation which was more compelling than the was more compelling than the was more compelling than the supernatural explanation. supernatural explanation. supernatural explanation. >> What about the big bang then? >> What about the big bang then? >> What about the big bang then? >> Good. So the big bang is a question of >> Good. So the big bang is a question of >> Good. So the big bang is a question of how it got started. Yeah. And over time how it got started. Yeah. And over time how it got started. Yeah. And over time we have been able to push our we have been able to push our we have been able to push our understanding ever further back. So in understanding ever further back. So in understanding ever further back. So in about 19 uh call it 29 or so Edwin about 19 uh call it 29 or so Edwin about 19 uh call it 29 or so Edwin Hubble who is a great astronomer Hubble who is a great astronomer Hubble who is a great astronomer noticed through powerful observations noticed through powerful observations noticed through powerful observations through the telescope at Mount Wilson through the telescope at Mount Wilson through the telescope at Mount Wilson Observatory in California that the Observatory in California that the Observatory in California that the distant galaxies all seem to be moving distant galaxies all seem to be moving distant galaxies all seem to be moving away. Interesting. Others, George away. Interesting. Others, George away. Interesting. Others, George Lmetra, who is a Belgian priest, as it Lmetra, who is a Belgian priest, as it Lmetra, who is a Belgian priest, as it turns out, who also knew Einstein's turns out, who also knew Einstein's turns out, who also knew Einstein's general relativity, said, "Well, look, general relativity, said, "Well, look, general relativity, said, "Well, look, if all the galaxies are moving away, if all the galaxies are moving away, if all the galaxies are moving away, just wind that cosmic film backwards."

just wind that cosmic film backwards." just wind that cosmic film backwards." Back in time, they must have been closer Back in time, they must have been closer Back in time, they must have been closer and closer and closer together. Way back and closer and closer together. Way back and closer and closer together. Way back in the beginning, they must have all in the beginning, they must have all in the beginning, they must have all been on top of each other, and then been on top of each other, and then been on top of each other, and then everything running the film forward must everything running the film forward must everything running the film forward must have swelled outward in a big bang-like have swelled outward in a big bang-like have swelled outward in a big bang-like explosion. explosion. explosion. >> Let there be light. >> Let there be light. >> Let there be light. >> Let there be light. Yeah. And so >> Let there be light. Yeah. And so >> Let there be light. Yeah. And so starting in 1929, we began to have a starting in 1929, we began to have a starting in 1929, we began to have a scientific account of how it is that the scientific account of how it is that the scientific account of how it is that the universe may have been billions of years universe may have been billions of years universe may have been billions of years ago. And in our era, other scientists ago. And in our era, other scientists ago. And in our era, other scientists took the story even further, suggesting took the story even further, suggesting took the story even further, suggesting that there was an earlier era when the that there was an earlier era when the that there was an earlier era when the universe was just infused with a kind of universe was just infused with a kind of universe was just infused with a kind of uniform energy. You could say, where did uniform energy. You could say, where did uniform energy. You could say, where did the energy come? I don't know. But if it the energy come? I don't know. But if it the energy come? I don't know. But if it was infused with this uniform energy, was infused with this uniform energy, was infused with this uniform energy, they showed that the math required that they showed that the math required that they showed that the math required that the universe underwent this rapid the universe underwent this rapid the universe underwent this rapid swelling, the big bang. And so era by swelling, the big bang. And so era by swelling, the big bang. And so era by era by era, my point is we can push our era by era, my point is we can push our era by era, my point is we can push our understanding ever more deeply trying to understanding ever more deeply trying to understanding ever more deeply trying to get at cosmic origins. We have not been get at cosmic origins. We have not been get at cosmic origins. We have not been able to push back to time zero itself.

able to push back to time zero itself. able to push back to time zero itself. But because we're able to push our But because we're able to push our But because we're able to push our understanding further back and make understanding further back and make understanding further back and make predictions about, for instance, what's predictions about, for instance, what's predictions about, for instance, what's known as the cosmic microwave background known as the cosmic microwave background known as the cosmic microwave background radiation. This is heat that we can radiation. This is heat that we can radiation. This is heat that we can observe today that was left over from observe today that was left over from observe today that was left over from the big bang. Big bang was very hot. The the big bang. Big bang was very hot. The the big bang. Big bang was very hot. The universe has cooled ever since for 13.8 universe has cooled ever since for 13.8 universe has cooled ever since for 13.8 billion years. We can detect the billion years. We can detect the billion years. We can detect the residual heat from the big bang. And so residual heat from the big bang. And so residual heat from the big bang. And so this gives me confidence that we're this gives me confidence that we're this gives me confidence that we're inching toward the answer to the inching toward the answer to the inching toward the answer to the question that you asked. Now, will we question that you asked. Now, will we question that you asked. Now, will we require God at some point? By which I require God at some point? By which I require God at some point? By which I mean, will we say we've gone as far as mean, will we say we've gone as far as mean, will we say we've gone as far as we can? Will we have to invoke something we can? Will we have to invoke something we can? Will we have to invoke something else? I can't say no. But I don't see else? I can't say no. But I don't see else? I can't say no. But I don't see any reason at this point to envision any reason at this point to envision any reason at this point to envision that we won't be able to push all the that we won't be able to push all the that we won't be able to push all the way to a full understanding. Most of us way to a full understanding. Most of us way to a full understanding. Most of us don't really understand um I guess how don't really understand um I guess how don't really understand um I guess how scale scale scale >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and time have a relationship which means >> and time have a relationship which means >> and time have a relationship which means that you know I've been alive for 33 that you know I've been alive for 33 that you know I've been alive for 33 years now and it feels like a long time. years now and it feels like a long time. years now and it feels like a long time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I'm presuming the further and >> But I'm presuming the further and >> But I'm presuming the further and further you zoom out and the sort of the further you zoom out and the sort of the further you zoom out and the sort of the bigger the wider the scale gets time is bigger the wider the scale gets time is bigger the wider the scale gets time is experienced differently. So actually I experienced differently. So actually I experienced differently. So actually I could have been here for a second in a could have been here for a second in a could have been here for a second in a toddler's universe who's created the toddler's universe who's created the toddler's universe who's created the simulation. simulation. simulation. >> Yes. All of this is possible when >> Yes. All of this is possible when >> Yes. All of this is possible when simulations are part of the story. But simulations are part of the story. But simulations are part of the story. But if you put that to the side and just if you put that to the side and just if you put that to the side and just look at our universe, yeah, the time look at our universe, yeah, the time look at our universe, yeah, the time scales even there are shocking. I mean, scales even there are shocking. I mean, scales even there are shocking. I mean, Carl Sean used an analogy. He said, Carl Sean used an analogy. He said, Carl Sean used an analogy. He said, "Look, if you want to understand the "Look, if you want to understand the "Look, if you want to understand the time scales of the universe from the time scales of the universe from the time scales of the universe from the beginning until today, which is billions beginning until today, which is billions beginning until today, which is billions of years, like 13.8 billion years, he of years, like 13.8 billion years, he of years, like 13.8 billion years, he said, here's one way to do it. Imagine said, here's one way to do it. Imagine said, here's one way to do it. Imagine that all of cosmic history from the that all of cosmic history from the that all of cosmic history from the beginning until today, you compress it beginning until today, you compress it beginning until today, you compress it down to one year. down to one year. down to one year. >> Now, in that scheme, that means each day >> Now, in that scheme, that means each day >> Now, in that scheme, that means each day is about 40,000 years. But you can then is about 40,000 years. But you can then is about 40,000 years. But you can then put all of the milestone moments in the put all of the milestone moments in the put all of the milestone moments in the evolution of the universe on the evolution of the universe on the evolution of the universe on the calendar. So imagine you have the big calendar. So imagine you have the big calendar. So imagine you have the big bang is January 1st. Then the Milky Way bang is January 1st. Then the Milky Way bang is January 1st. Then the Milky Way galaxy forms like something around you galaxy forms like something around you galaxy forms like something around you know March 15th or something like that.

know March 15th or something like that. know March 15th or something like that. And the sun and the earth form sometime And the sun and the earth form sometime And the sun and the earth form sometime you know in May you know and then the you know in May you know and then the you know in May you know and then the first you know life on earth is sometime first you know life on earth is sometime first you know life on earth is sometime in December like December 2nd and then in December like December 2nd and then in December like December 2nd and then you know the first modern humans they you know the first modern humans they you know the first modern humans they appear like on New Year's Eve right appear like on New Year's Eve right appear like on New Year's Eve right >> and then all of civilization >> and then all of civilization >> and then all of civilization takes place in the last 10 seconds right takes place in the last 10 seconds right takes place in the last 10 seconds right so like 11:55 so like 11:55 so like 11:55 you know it's the it's the rise of the you know it's the it's the rise of the you know it's the it's the rise of the Buddha 1156 the fall of Rome 1158 ate Buddha 1156 the fall of Rome 1158 ate Buddha 1156 the fall of Rome 1158 ate the Renaissance 11:59 the Renaissance 11:59 the Renaissance 11:59 like 1 second to the stroke of midnight like 1 second to the stroke of midnight like 1 second to the stroke of midnight you get modern science. So like modern you get modern science. So like modern you get modern science. So like modern science is like 1 second in this cosmic science is like 1 second in this cosmic science is like 1 second in this cosmic calendar. And so that helps you get a calendar. And so that helps you get a calendar. And so that helps you get a feel for the time scales that are feel for the time scales that are feel for the time scales that are involved when you're talking involved when you're talking involved when you're talking cosmologically because you're right, 33 cosmologically because you're right, 33 cosmologically because you're right, 33 years in a lifetime. years in a lifetime. years in a lifetime. You know, I'm I'm going to posit you're You know, I'm I'm going to posit you're You know, I'm I'm going to posit you're going to live to 99. Let's say that's going to live to 99. Let's say that's going to live to 99. Let's say that's oneird of your life. You know, that's oneird of your life. You know, that's oneird of your life. You know, that's that's not small. It's not big, but you that's not small. It's not big, but you that's not small. It's not big, but you know, it's a significant part of it. on know, it's a significant part of it. on know, it's a significant part of it. on cosmic terms 33 years it's zero it cosmic terms 33 years it's zero it cosmic terms 33 years it's zero it doesn't register that's how tiny it is doesn't register that's how tiny it is doesn't register that's how tiny it is on the scales that we're talking about on the scales that we're talking about on the scales that we're talking about cosmologically cosmologically cosmologically >> so should I feel insignificant >> so should I feel insignificant >> so should I feel insignificant >> you can I would urge you not to one of >> you can I would urge you not to one of >> you can I would urge you not to one of the reactions to all this certainly can the reactions to all this certainly can the reactions to all this certainly can be look we're a little tiny speck in be look we're a little tiny speck in be look we're a little tiny speck in space right I mean you can give the same space right I mean you can give the same space right I mean you can give the same kind of context for space itself Right.

kind of context for space itself Right. kind of context for space itself Right. Because we're on a planet around the Because we're on a planet around the Because we're on a planet around the sun. The sun is one star of a 100red sun. The sun is one star of a 100red sun. The sun is one star of a 100red billion others or so in the Milky Way billion others or so in the Milky Way billion others or so in the Milky Way galaxy. galaxy. galaxy. >> Have you got a >> Have you got a >> Have you got a >> Yeah, I think there's a a little version >> Yeah, I think there's a a little version >> Yeah, I think there's a a little version of this thing here. If we can get this of this thing here. If we can get this of this thing here. If we can get this guy to go on. Right. Yeah. So, if you guy to go on. Right. Yeah. So, if you guy to go on. Right. Yeah. So, if you sort of start like here, right here we sort of start like here, right here we sort of start like here, right here we are in the studio. Right. And if here we are in the studio. Right. And if here we are in the studio. Right. And if here we then begin to pull out to planet Earth, then begin to pull out to planet Earth, then begin to pull out to planet Earth, like we're a little dot on planet Earth. like we're a little dot on planet Earth. like we're a little dot on planet Earth. And then if you pull out from there, And then if you pull out from there, And then if you pull out from there, this is Earth within the solar system. this is Earth within the solar system. this is Earth within the solar system. You begin to see how tiny we look even You begin to see how tiny we look even You begin to see how tiny we look even on the scale of the solar system. But of on the scale of the solar system. But of on the scale of the solar system. But of course here you can pull out further and course here you can pull out further and course here you can pull out further and you begin to see our sun, one of many you begin to see our sun, one of many you begin to see our sun, one of many stars within the galaxies. You only see stars within the galaxies. You only see stars within the galaxies. You only see a few here. But you know there are 100 a few here. But you know there are 100 a few here. But you know there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy. And then billion stars in our galaxy. And then billion stars in our galaxy. And then you can go even further than that. You you can go even further than that. You you can go even further than that. You can look at our Milky Way galaxy within can look at our Milky Way galaxy within can look at our Milky Way galaxy within the setting of the entire universe that the setting of the entire universe that the setting of the entire universe that has at least a hundred billion other has at least a hundred billion other has at least a hundred billion other galaxies. galaxies. galaxies. So we as a little tiny speck around our So we as a little tiny speck around our So we as a little tiny speck around our star, our star is one of 100 billion star, our star is one of 100 billion star, our star is one of 100 billion stars in a galaxy that's one of 100 stars in a galaxy that's one of 100 stars in a galaxy that's one of 100 billion galaxies. That can certainly billion galaxies. That can certainly billion galaxies. That can certainly make you feel small in space.

make you feel small in space. make you feel small in space. The beauty though is that our minds can The beauty though is that our minds can The beauty though is that our minds can reach out to the edge of the cosmos. The reach out to the edge of the cosmos. The reach out to the edge of the cosmos. The fact that we can understand that we are fact that we can understand that we are fact that we can understand that we are so small is what gives us heft. That's so small is what gives us heft. That's so small is what gives us heft. That's what gives us a sense of connection to what gives us a sense of connection to what gives us a sense of connection to something larger. I imagine that fish something larger. I imagine that fish something larger. I imagine that fish don't realize don't realize don't realize that they're like in one ocean of many that they're like in one ocean of many that they're like in one ocean of many oceans on the earth. That's one planet. oceans on the earth. That's one planet. oceans on the earth. That's one planet. I I don't think maybe I'm wrong and I I don't think maybe I'm wrong and I I don't think maybe I'm wrong and maybe the fish are like ah yeah yeah maybe the fish are like ah yeah yeah maybe the fish are like ah yeah yeah yeah you you know [clears throat] but yeah you you know [clears throat] but yeah you you know [clears throat] but but assuming that the fish don't know but assuming that the fish don't know but assuming that the fish don't know that they don't know that they're that they don't know that they're that they don't know that they're insignificant they don't even really insignificant they don't even really insignificant they don't even really think in those terms per se but the fact think in those terms per se but the fact think in those terms per se but the fact that we can do that the fact that we can that we can do that the fact that we can that we can do that the fact that we can realize how insignificant we are when realize how insignificant we are when realize how insignificant we are when you talk about the expanse of space you you talk about the expanse of space you you talk about the expanse of space you realize that there are other measures of realize that there are other measures of realize that there are other measures of significance and one measure of significance and one measure of significance and one measure of significance is your ability to significance is your ability to significance is your ability to understand your own predicament understand your own predicament understand your own predicament and the fact that we can do that is what and the fact that we can do that is what and the fact that we can do that is what to me is wondrous. to me is wondrous. to me is wondrous. >> How do we know we're not just that whole >> How do we know we're not just that whole >> How do we know we're not just that whole universe there isn't just a we're just a universe there isn't just a we're just a universe there isn't just a we're just a a microbe in the in the gut of a of a a microbe in the in the gut of a of a a microbe in the in the gut of a of a fish?

fish? fish? >> Yeah, we we could and again that's much >> Yeah, we we could and again that's much >> Yeah, we we could and again that's much like this simulation argument. But let like this simulation argument. But let like this simulation argument. But let me give you an example in here that me give you an example in here that me give you an example in here that helps give you a sense of why we believe helps give you a sense of why we believe helps give you a sense of why we believe this stuff. This here is the cosmic this stuff. This here is the cosmic this stuff. This here is the cosmic microwave background radiation. This is microwave background radiation. This is microwave background radiation. This is the heat left over from the beginning. the heat left over from the beginning. the heat left over from the beginning. Now, it's colorcoded. The different Now, it's colorcoded. The different Now, it's colorcoded. The different colors correspond to different colors correspond to different colors correspond to different temperatures in space. This is a picture temperatures in space. This is a picture temperatures in space. This is a picture of space with a device that measures the of space with a device that measures the of space with a device that measures the temperature at each location and assigns temperature at each location and assigns temperature at each location and assigns it a color. it a color. it a color. >> How much of space or just a segment? >> How much of space or just a segment? >> How much of space or just a segment? >> This is a segment of the observable >> This is a segment of the observable >> This is a segment of the observable universe. The segment that we can see. universe. The segment that we can see. universe. The segment that we can see. Now, space can be much larger than Now, space can be much larger than Now, space can be much larger than things that we can see. That's things that we can see. That's things that we can see. That's absolutely the case. But my point is absolutely the case. But my point is absolutely the case. But my point is these tiny color variations correspond these tiny color variations correspond these tiny color variations correspond to tiny temperature differences. We can to tiny temperature differences. We can to tiny temperature differences. We can use mathematics to predict the pattern use mathematics to predict the pattern use mathematics to predict the pattern of the temperature variations. of the temperature variations. of the temperature variations. And what we predict matches this image And what we predict matches this image And what we predict matches this image to incredible precision.

to incredible precision. to incredible precision. And so the fact that we can do a And so the fact that we can do a And so the fact that we can do a calculation right at this table with a calculation right at this table with a calculation right at this table with a piece of paper, a pencil, and a computer piece of paper, a pencil, and a computer piece of paper, a pencil, and a computer and generate an image that agrees with and generate an image that agrees with and generate an image that agrees with what we see, we say, "Look, yeah, we can what we see, we say, "Look, yeah, we can what we see, we say, "Look, yeah, we can be skeptical. Maybe we don't have the be skeptical. Maybe we don't have the be skeptical. Maybe we don't have the full answer, but that agreement gives us full answer, but that agreement gives us full answer, but that agreement gives us confidence that we've got something in confidence that we've got something in confidence that we've got something in the direction of truth." And that to me the direction of truth." And that to me the direction of truth." And that to me is what gives us something that is what gives us something that is what gives us something that counteracts the feeling of counteracts the feeling of counteracts the feeling of insignificance. insignificance. insignificance. >> And on that, if you just pull that up >> And on that, if you just pull that up >> And on that, if you just pull that up again. So this is the observable again. So this is the observable again. So this is the observable universe, which is I mean, how big is universe, which is I mean, how big is universe, which is I mean, how big is that? that? that? >> The universe is about 13.8 billion years >> The universe is about 13.8 billion years >> The universe is about 13.8 billion years old. So you'd think that the univer the old. So you'd think that the univer the old. So you'd think that the univer the distance we could see would be about distance we could see would be about distance we could see would be about 13.8 billion light years. The distance 13.8 billion light years. The distance 13.8 billion light years. The distance light can travel in one year. We can light can travel in one year. We can light can travel in one year. We can actually see a little bit further more actually see a little bit further more actually see a little bit further more like 45 billion lightyears. So you can like 45 billion lightyears. So you can like 45 billion lightyears. So you can think about this as here we are we look think about this as here we are we look think about this as here we are we look out billions of light years that way out billions of light years that way out billions of light years that way billions of light years that way billions of light years that way billions of light years that way billions of light years in every billions of light years in every billions of light years in every direction and this is like a big sphere direction and this is like a big sphere direction and this is like a big sphere that surrounds us and we're measuring that surrounds us and we're measuring that surrounds us and we're measuring its temperature. The temperature of its temperature. The temperature of its temperature. The temperature of space the photons that have traveled to space the photons that have traveled to space the photons that have traveled to us from about 300,000 years after the us from about 300,000 years after the us from about 300,000 years after the beginning. So this picture is a snapshot beginning. So this picture is a snapshot beginning. So this picture is a snapshot in essence of what the universe was like in essence of what the universe was like in essence of what the universe was like a mere moment in cosmological terms a mere moment in cosmological terms a mere moment in cosmological terms 300,000 years after the beginning. That 300,000 years after the beginning. That 300,000 years after the beginning. That is an amazing picture.

is an amazing picture. is an amazing picture. >> And what's beyond? >> And what's beyond? >> And what's beyond? >> I don't know. I don't have any reason to >> I don't know. I don't have any reason to >> I don't know. I don't have any reason to suspect that reality radically changes suspect that reality radically changes suspect that reality radically changes just beyond the place that we can see. I just beyond the place that we can see. I just beyond the place that we can see. I think it's incredibly unlikely that the think it's incredibly unlikely that the think it's incredibly unlikely that the world is so consistent with our world is so consistent with our world is so consistent with our scientific understanding for it to all scientific understanding for it to all scientific understanding for it to all be a ruse. be a ruse. be a ruse. >> So, is it infinite? >> So, is it infinite? >> So, is it infinite? >> It could be. And if it is infinite, >> It could be. And if it is infinite, >> It could be. And if it is infinite, there are some really weird things. If there are some really weird things. If there are some really weird things. If what we have been talking about isn't what we have been talking about isn't what we have been talking about isn't weird enough, right? You know, if the weird enough, right? You know, if the weird enough, right? You know, if the universe is infinite, if you go universe is infinite, if you go universe is infinite, if you go sufficiently far out into space, you're sufficiently far out into space, you're sufficiently far out into space, you're virtually guaranteed to find a copy of virtually guaranteed to find a copy of virtually guaranteed to find a copy of yourself out there and a copy of the yourself out there and a copy of the yourself out there and a copy of the Earth out there and a copy of our galaxy Earth out there and a copy of our galaxy Earth out there and a copy of our galaxy out there. It's virtually impossible to out there. It's virtually impossible to out there. It's virtually impossible to imagine a universe that goes on imagine a universe that goes on imagine a universe that goes on infinitely far and doesn't repeat. You infinitely far and doesn't repeat. You infinitely far and doesn't repeat. You know, in fact, I see a prop here. I can know, in fact, I see a prop here. I can know, in fact, I see a prop here. I can sort of tell you why, right? So, here's sort of tell you why, right? So, here's sort of tell you why, right? So, here's a deck of cards, right? And I think it's a deck of cards, right? And I think it's a deck of cards, right? And I think it's a new deck. Yeah. So everything is in a new deck. Yeah. So everything is in a new deck. Yeah. So everything is in order, right? It's all perfectly ordered order, right? It's all perfectly ordered order, right? It's all perfectly ordered like that. Now, if I was to take this like that. Now, if I was to take this like that. Now, if I was to take this deck of cards and I start to shuffle it, deck of cards and I start to shuffle it, deck of cards and I start to shuffle it, right? So, you know, I'm not a right? So, you know, I'm not a right? So, you know, I'm not a particularly good shuffler, but you particularly good shuffler, but you particularly good shuffler, but you know, you get the basic idea. You know, know, you get the basic idea. You know, know, you get the basic idea. You know, I keep shuffling. And of course, the I keep shuffling. And of course, the I keep shuffling. And of course, the order changes every time, right? So, if order changes every time, right? So, if order changes every time, right? So, if I now, you know, I'm not a great I now, you know, I'm not a great I now, you know, I'm not a great shuffler. So, there probably still, you shuffler. So, there probably still, you shuffler. So, there probably still, you know, some things that are still, you know, some things that are still, you know, some things that are still, you know, in numerical order, but it's more know, in numerical order, but it's more know, in numerical order, but it's more mixed up than it was before. And I can

mixed up than it was before. And I can mixed up than it was before. And I can keep on doing this. Now, sooner or keep on doing this. Now, sooner or keep on doing this. Now, sooner or later, if I continue to shuffle these later, if I continue to shuffle these later, if I continue to shuffle these cards over and over and over and over cards over and over and over and over cards over and over and over and over and over and over again, sooner or and over and over again, sooner or and over and over again, sooner or later, it will get back to the later, it will get back to the later, it will get back to the completely ordered arrangement. Why? completely ordered arrangement. Why? completely ordered arrangement. Why? Because there aren't enough different Because there aren't enough different Because there aren't enough different arrangements to go around. Right? That arrangements to go around. Right? That arrangements to go around. Right? That idea applies in the universe in the idea applies in the universe in the idea applies in the universe in the following way. In any region of space, following way. In any region of space, following way. In any region of space, there are particles. Those particles can there are particles. Those particles can there are particles. Those particles can be arranged in a variety of different be arranged in a variety of different be arranged in a variety of different ways. Here they're arranged so that you ways. Here they're arranged so that you ways. Here they're arranged so that you and I are sitting at this table and we and I are sitting at this table and we and I are sitting at this table and we got the cameras and everything. This is got the cameras and everything. This is got the cameras and everything. This is just a particle arrangement. There are just a particle arrangement. There are just a particle arrangement. There are only a finite number of arrangements of only a finite number of arrangements of only a finite number of arrangements of particles in any given region of space. particles in any given region of space. particles in any given region of space. This you can establish from the laws of This you can establish from the laws of This you can establish from the laws of quantum physics. So if you go out far quantum physics. So if you go out far quantum physics. So if you go out far enough in space, region by region by enough in space, region by region by enough in space, region by region by region, the particles will have region, the particles will have region, the particles will have different arrangements, but they have to different arrangements, but they have to different arrangements, but they have to repeat much like the order of the cards repeat much like the order of the cards repeat much like the order of the cards has to repeat. So there has to be a has to repeat. So there has to be a has to repeat. So there has to be a place out there. In fact, if it goes on place out there. In fact, if it goes on place out there. In fact, if it goes on infinitely far, if you imagine that I infinitely far, if you imagine that I infinitely far, if you imagine that I shuffle these cards infinitely many shuffle these cards infinitely many shuffle these cards infinitely many times, I'll get that nice ordered times, I'll get that nice ordered times, I'll get that nice ordered arrangement infinitely many times, too.

arrangement infinitely many times, too. arrangement infinitely many times, too. Similarly, there are infinitely many Similarly, there are infinitely many Similarly, there are infinitely many copies of you, of me, of everything copies of you, of me, of everything copies of you, of me, of everything we're familiar with out there in the we're familiar with out there in the we're familiar with out there in the cosmos. And so, if the universe is cosmos. And so, if the universe is cosmos. And so, if the universe is infinite, it kind of challenges a little infinite, it kind of challenges a little infinite, it kind of challenges a little bit our sense of self, right? Like what bit our sense of self, right? Like what bit our sense of self, right? Like what does it mean to be who you are if there does it mean to be who you are if there does it mean to be who you are if there are other versions of you having the are other versions of you having the are other versions of you having the exact same thoughts? They had the same exact same thoughts? They had the same exact same thoughts? They had the same childhood. They had the same history childhood. They had the same history childhood. They had the same history because again that's just an arrangement because again that's just an arrangement because again that's just an arrangement of particles over time and it has to of particles over time and it has to of particles over time and it has to repeat. repeat. repeat. >> There's a version out there of me that >> There's a version out there of me that >> There's a version out there of me that just loves wine. just loves wine. just loves wine. >> There you go. Right. In fact, it's even >> There you go. Right. In fact, it's even >> There you go. Right. In fact, it's even easier, I should say, for the particle easier, I should say, for the particle easier, I should say, for the particle arrangement to almost but not quite arrangement to almost but not quite arrangement to almost but not quite exactly replicate what we're familiar exactly replicate what we're familiar exactly replicate what we're familiar with, which would mean there's a with, which would mean there's a with, which would mean there's a universe out there in which you and I universe out there in which you and I universe out there in which you and I are interchanged or you grew up in New are interchanged or you grew up in New are interchanged or you grew up in New York City and I grew up something. Yeah, York City and I grew up something. Yeah, York City and I grew up something. Yeah, because those are again almost because those are again almost because those are again almost replications. You got the earth, you got replications. You got the earth, you got replications. You got the earth, you got the sun, but the detailed particle the sun, but the detailed particle the sun, but the detailed particle arrangement is close to but not arrangement is close to but not arrangement is close to but not identical to what we are used to. So identical to what we are used to. So identical to what we are used to. So yeah, an infinite universe brings in yeah, an infinite universe brings in yeah, an infinite universe brings in some fairly strange ideas.

some fairly strange ideas. some fairly strange ideas. >> But even in the observable universe, I >> But even in the observable universe, I >> But even in the observable universe, I mean this transitions nicely to the mean this transitions nicely to the mean this transitions nicely to the subject of aliens which people are um subject of aliens which people are um subject of aliens which people are um yeah yeah yeah >> very obsessed about. I guess there's two >> very obsessed about. I guess there's two >> very obsessed about. I guess there's two questions here which is why do we care questions here which is why do we care questions here which is why do we care so much I guess philosophically about so much I guess philosophically about so much I guess philosophically about aliens? You know, I think we at least in aliens? You know, I think we at least in aliens? You know, I think we at least in this country and elsewhere too, we love this country and elsewhere too, we love this country and elsewhere too, we love the idea of conspiracy. We love the idea the idea of conspiracy. We love the idea the idea of conspiracy. We love the idea that the deep state is hiding things that the deep state is hiding things that the deep state is hiding things from us. And by we, I don't mean me. I from us. And by we, I don't mean me. I from us. And by we, I don't mean me. I sort of mean the zeitgeist, you know, sort of mean the zeitgeist, you know, sort of mean the zeitgeist, you know, loves the idea of this Area 51, you loves the idea of this Area 51, you loves the idea of this Area 51, you know. So, I think there's a a a desire know. So, I think there's a a a desire know. So, I think there's a a a desire for there to be more than what's for there to be more than what's for there to be more than what's apparent on the surface. And wouldn't it apparent on the surface. And wouldn't it apparent on the surface. And wouldn't it be exciting if you know we've long known be exciting if you know we've long known be exciting if you know we've long known that there are these aliens they visited that there are these aliens they visited that there are these aliens they visited us and it's been kept under wraps. us and it's been kept under wraps. us and it's been kept under wraps. That's like the deep conspiracy that That's like the deep conspiracy that That's like the deep conspiracy that feeds that hunger for there to be feeds that hunger for there to be feeds that hunger for there to be something that is being hidden from us. something that is being hidden from us. something that is being hidden from us. Now I think the other reason is we're Now I think the other reason is we're Now I think the other reason is we're deeply lonely as a species. Sure, we've deeply lonely as a species. Sure, we've deeply lonely as a species. Sure, we've got people around, but you know, I think got people around, but you know, I think got people around, but you know, I think this sense, the desire for a god, I this sense, the desire for a god, I this sense, the desire for a god, I don't think is that much different from don't think is that much different from don't think is that much different from the desire for there to be other life the desire for there to be other life the desire for there to be other life out there. It's the desire to be part of out there. It's the desire to be part of out there. It's the desire to be part of something bigger. Now, if you ask me, do something bigger. Now, if you ask me, do something bigger. Now, if you ask me, do I think there are actually other life I think there are actually other life I think there are actually other life forms out there? I'd like to think of it forms out there? I'd like to think of it forms out there? I'd like to think of it in two ways. One, yeah, I think it's in two ways. One, yeah, I think it's in two ways. One, yeah, I think it's hard to imagine that we're the only hard to imagine that we're the only hard to imagine that we're the only life. I mean the more we look the more life. I mean the more we look the more life. I mean the more we look the more we find the organic molecules necessary we find the organic molecules necessary we find the organic molecules necessary for life you know amino acids nucleic

for life you know amino acids nucleic for life you know amino acids nucleic acid you know the the raw material seems acid you know the the raw material seems acid you know the the raw material seems to not be too hard to come by in the to not be too hard to come by in the to not be too hard to come by in the cosmos so to imagine that there's other cosmos so to imagine that there's other cosmos so to imagine that there's other you know bacterial life or viruses out you know bacterial life or viruses out you know bacterial life or viruses out there that seems to me a reasonable there that seems to me a reasonable there that seems to me a reasonable working hypothesis but if you then say working hypothesis but if you then say working hypothesis but if you then say but what about intelligent life and by but what about intelligent life and by but what about intelligent life and by intelligent life let's just call us intelligent life let's just call us intelligent life let's just call us intelligent and it's debatable but let's intelligent and it's debatable but let's intelligent and it's debatable but let's just say that you know that is a harder just say that you know that is a harder just say that you know that is a harder question I mean even on our planet right question I mean even on our planet right question I mean even on our planet right it was an asteroid 65 million years ago it was an asteroid 65 million years ago it was an asteroid 65 million years ago that wiped out the dinosaurs and in that that wiped out the dinosaurs and in that that wiped out the dinosaurs and in that way opened up the evolutionary pathway way opened up the evolutionary pathway way opened up the evolutionary pathway by which we came to dominate in the way by which we came to dominate in the way by which we came to dominate in the way that we do without that it could still that we do without that it could still that we do without that it could still be the dinosaurs are grazing around on be the dinosaurs are grazing around on be the dinosaurs are grazing around on various plant life and other life forms various plant life and other life forms various plant life and other life forms on on the surface of this earth. And on on the surface of this earth. And on on the surface of this earth. And without that kind of accident on some without that kind of accident on some without that kind of accident on some other world, maybe intelligent life is other world, maybe intelligent life is other world, maybe intelligent life is rare or even so rare that we're the only rare or even so rare that we're the only rare or even so rare that we're the only example. So I don't consider that an example. So I don't consider that an example. So I don't consider that an absurd perspective as well that there is absurd perspective as well that there is absurd perspective as well that there is life, but there may not be any life, but there may not be any life, but there may not be any intelligence beyond us.

intelligence beyond us. intelligence beyond us. >> Much of the reason most people haven't >> Much of the reason most people haven't >> Much of the reason most people haven't posted content or built their personal posted content or built their personal posted content or built their personal brand is because it's hard and it's brand is because it's hard and it's brand is because it's hard and it's timeconuming and we're all very very timeconuming and we're all very very timeconuming and we're all very very busy. And if you've never posted busy. And if you've never posted busy. And if you've never posted something before, there's so many something before, there's so many something before, there's so many factors in your psychology that stop you factors in your psychology that stop you factors in your psychology that stop you wanting to post. What people will think wanting to post. What people will think wanting to post. What people will think of you. Am I doing this right? Is the of you. Am I doing this right? Is the of you. Am I doing this right? Is the thing I'm saying absolutely stupid? All thing I'm saying absolutely stupid? All thing I'm saying absolutely stupid? All of these result in paralysis, which of these result in paralysis, which of these result in paralysis, which means you don't post and your feed goes means you don't post and your feed goes means you don't post and your feed goes bare. I'm an investor in a company bare. I'm an investor in a company bare. I'm an investor in a company called Stanto, which you've probably called Stanto, which you've probably called Stanto, which you've probably heard me talk about. And what they've heard me talk about. And what they've heard me talk about. And what they've been building is this new tool called been building is this new tool called been building is this new tool called Stanley that uses AI, looks at your Stanley that uses AI, looks at your Stanley that uses AI, looks at your feed, looks at your tone of voice, looks feed, looks at your tone of voice, looks feed, looks at your tone of voice, looks at your history, looks at your best at your history, looks at your best at your history, looks at your best performing posts, and tells you what you performing posts, and tells you what you performing posts, and tells you what you should post, makes those posts for you. should post, makes those posts for you. should post, makes those posts for you. You can also just use it for You can also just use it for You can also just use it for inspiration. And sometimes what we need inspiration. And sometimes what we need inspiration. And sometimes what we need when we're thinking about doing a post when we're thinking about doing a post when we're thinking about doing a post for our social media channels is for our social media channels is for our social media channels is inspiration. Building an audience has inspiration. Building an audience has inspiration. Building an audience has fundamentally changed my life, and I fundamentally changed my life, and I fundamentally changed my life, and I think it could change yours, too. So, think it could change yours, too. So, think it could change yours, too. So, I'm inviting you to give this new tool a I'm inviting you to give this new tool a I'm inviting you to give this new tool a shot, and let me know what you think. shot, and let me know what you think. shot, and let me know what you think. All you have to do is search coach.stand All you have to do is search coach.stand All you have to do is search coach.stand stand.store now to get started. Whenever stand.store now to get started. Whenever stand.store now to get started. Whenever I talk to new founders, they all carry I talk to new founders, they all carry I talk to new founders, they all carry the same belief that the biggest threat the same belief that the biggest threat the same belief that the biggest threat to their small business is having a bad to their small business is having a bad to their small business is having a bad product. It's not the biggest threat product. It's not the biggest threat product. It's not the biggest threat they face is hiring the wrong person for they face is hiring the wrong person for they face is hiring the wrong person for their small team. Because bad hires put their small team. Because bad hires put their small team. Because bad hires put the handbreak on growth and rapidly the handbreak on growth and rapidly the handbreak on growth and rapidly infect company culture. And I get it.

infect company culture. And I get it. infect company culture. And I get it. When you're starting out, you need a When you're starting out, you need a When you're starting out, you need a players to grow your company, but you players to grow your company, but you players to grow your company, but you don't have 40 spare hours to spend don't have 40 spare hours to spend don't have 40 spare hours to spend sifting through interviews. So, you hire sifting through interviews. So, you hire sifting through interviews. So, you hire fast to fill the seat. But this ends up fast to fill the seat. But this ends up fast to fill the seat. But this ends up costing you even more in the long term. costing you even more in the long term. costing you even more in the long term. What any small business actually needs What any small business actually needs What any small business actually needs is a reliable and efficient way to find is a reliable and efficient way to find is a reliable and efficient way to find the right talent without stalling the right talent without stalling the right talent without stalling momentum. That's where our long-term momentum. That's where our long-term momentum. That's where our long-term sponsor LinkedIn and LinkedIn Hiring Pro sponsor LinkedIn and LinkedIn Hiring Pro sponsor LinkedIn and LinkedIn Hiring Pro can help you. It streamlines the entire can help you. It streamlines the entire can help you. It streamlines the entire hiring process from drafting a job hiring process from drafting a job hiring process from drafting a job description to shortlisting candidates description to shortlisting candidates description to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered interviews for and conducting AI powered interviews for and conducting AI powered interviews for initial screenings. Nearly 60% of hirers initial screenings. Nearly 60% of hirers initial screenings. Nearly 60% of hirers who've used this tool have found a who've used this tool have found a who've used this tool have found a candidate to interview within a week. candidate to interview within a week. candidate to interview within a week. Hire right the first time around and get Hire right the first time around and get Hire right the first time around and get started by posting your first job for started by posting your first job for started by posting your first job for free at linkedin.com/doac. free at linkedin.com/doac. free at linkedin.com/doac. That's linkedin.comac That's linkedin.comac That's linkedin.comac in terms and conditions apply. in terms and conditions apply. in terms and conditions apply. >> If one of your children came to you and >> If one of your children came to you and >> If one of your children came to you and said, "Dad, um, what is the what is the said, "Dad, um, what is the what is the said, "Dad, um, what is the what is the meaning then of this life? If we're meaning then of this life? If we're meaning then of this life? If we're we're alone in this universe, it's a we're alone in this universe, it's a we're alone in this universe, it's a gazillion miles away from anything gazillion miles away from anything gazillion miles away from anything interesting in the cosmic spectrum of interesting in the cosmic spectrum of interesting in the cosmic spectrum of things. What is the meaning of all of things. What is the meaning of all of things. What is the meaning of all of this, Dad?" this, Dad?" this, Dad?" >> Yeah. Well, they do ask. >> Yeah. Well, they do ask. >> Yeah. Well, they do ask. >> Oh, they do. >> Oh, they do. >> Oh, they do. >> You know, unfortunately or fortunately, >> You know, unfortunately or fortunately, >> You know, unfortunately or fortunately, because I spend a lot of time thinking because I spend a lot of time thinking because I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff and writing about it, about this stuff and writing about it, about this stuff and writing about it, it's sort of in in the familial it's sort of in in the familial it's sort of in in the familial zeitgeist at home, if you will. But you zeitgeist at home, if you will. But you zeitgeist at home, if you will. But you know my answer generally is I don't know my answer generally is I don't know my answer generally is I don't think that hovering out there in the think that hovering out there in the think that hovering out there in the depths of space there is the answer. You depths of space there is the answer. You depths of space there is the answer. You know I I think you know this this urge know I I think you know this this urge know I I think you know this this urge to look out and have the answer brought to look out and have the answer brought to look out and have the answer brought to us. I think that's needs to be to us. I think that's needs to be to us. I think that's needs to be inverted. I think that we need to come inverted. I think that we need to come inverted. I think that we need to come to the universe with our answer to that.

to the universe with our answer to that. to the universe with our answer to that. And I think the charge of every sentient And I think the charge of every sentient And I think the charge of every sentient living being is to come to their own living being is to come to their own living being is to come to their own rationale for their life, their own rationale for their life, their own rationale for their life, their own answer to your question, their own set answer to your question, their own set answer to your question, their own set of activities and desires and of activities and desires and of activities and desires and achievements and relationships that achievements and relationships that achievements and relationships that gives their life meaning and combine to gives their life meaning and combine to gives their life meaning and combine to make me feel connected. make me feel connected. make me feel connected. One of the things that does make me feel One of the things that does make me feel One of the things that does make me feel connected is just knowing that the connected is just knowing that the connected is just knowing that the particles that I'm made out of existed particles that I'm made out of existed particles that I'm made out of existed at the Big Bang. at the Big Bang. at the Big Bang. >> Yes, exactly. Isn't that wondrous? >> Yes, exactly. Isn't that wondrous? >> Yes, exactly. Isn't that wondrous? You are the universe constructed in a You are the universe constructed in a You are the universe constructed in a way that you can reflect on the way that you can reflect on the way that you can reflect on the universe. Now, some would say, "No, no, universe. Now, some would say, "No, no, universe. Now, some would say, "No, no, no. We're special. We're like these no. We're special. We're like these no. We're special. We're like these divine offspring, you know, made in the divine offspring, you know, made in the divine offspring, you know, made in the image of God." And sure, I mean, I like image of God." And sure, I mean, I like image of God." And sure, I mean, I like the way that that sounds, but I find it the way that that sounds, but I find it the way that that sounds, but I find it much more satisfying to describe it the much more satisfying to describe it the much more satisfying to describe it the way you did. There were particles that way you did. There were particles that way you did. There were particles that emerged from the Big Bang that coales emerged from the Big Bang that coales emerged from the Big Bang that coales into a form that allowed us to into a form that allowed us to into a form that allowed us to momentarily, cuz we're here for a brief momentarily, cuz we're here for a brief momentarily, cuz we're here for a brief flicker of cosmic time, to momentarily flicker of cosmic time, to momentarily flicker of cosmic time, to momentarily reflect on our own existence. That's a reflect on our own existence. That's a reflect on our own existence. That's a connection. One of the things that connection. One of the things that connection. One of the things that actually helped me a lot through my actually helped me a lot through my actually helped me a lot through my life, funnily enough, is um is kind of life, funnily enough, is um is kind of life, funnily enough, is um is kind of watching what you just showed on the watching what you just showed on the watching what you just showed on the screen there, which was I watched a screen there, which was I watched a screen there, which was I watched a video when I was younger of them just video when I was younger of them just video when I was younger of them just zooming out from Earth.

zooming out from Earth. zooming out from Earth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we talked about feeling >> And we talked about feeling >> And we talked about feeling insignificant earlier. Um I mean, insignificant earlier. Um I mean, insignificant earlier. Um I mean, there's some of them here. I'll just there's some of them here. I'll just there's some of them here. I'll just pick one at random like this one here. pick one at random like this one here. pick one at random like this one here. Well, it's just a a lady sat on some Well, it's just a a lady sat on some Well, it's just a a lady sat on some grass and grass and grass and >> she she zooms out further and further >> she she zooms out further and further >> she she zooms out further and further and further. And when I saw this, I must and further. And when I saw this, I must and further. And when I saw this, I must have been h it was a video like this have been h it was a video like this have been h it was a video like this one. I must have been about 14 years one. I must have been about 14 years one. I must have been about 14 years old. And at first I had the thought that old. And at first I had the thought that old. And at first I had the thought that a lot of people might have which was oh a lot of people might have which was oh a lot of people might have which was oh like none of this matters because we're like none of this matters because we're like none of this matters because we're so insignificant on the grand scheme of so insignificant on the grand scheme of so insignificant on the grand scheme of things that like what's the point? And things that like what's the point? And things that like what's the point? And then I I had this other thought which then I I had this other thought which then I I had this other thought which has stayed with me ever since which is it liberated me from worry. it liberated me from worry. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because if if all of my worries are just >> Because if if all of my worries are just >> Because if if all of my worries are just a speck in this bigger thing which are a a speck in this bigger thing which are a a speck in this bigger thing which are a speck in a bigger thing and a speck in a speck in a bigger thing and a speck in a speck in a bigger thing and a speck in a bigger thing it meant that I could take bigger thing it meant that I could take bigger thing it meant that I could take more risks in my life. Yeah. more risks in my life. Yeah. more risks in my life. Yeah. >> And not be encumbered by what will >> And not be encumbered by what will >> And not be encumbered by what will happen if and what will people think and happen if and what will people think and happen if and what will people think and etc etc etc which kind of liberates one etc etc etc which kind of liberates one etc etc etc which kind of liberates one to go and pursue whatever they want to to go and pursue whatever they want to to go and pursue whatever they want to pursue. pursue. pursue. >> Yeah. Carl Sean with the pale blue dot. >> Yeah. Carl Sean with the pale blue dot. >> Yeah. Carl Sean with the pale blue dot. You know if you're familiar with that You know if you're familiar with that You know if you're familiar with that terminology he he had the uh Viking terminology he he had the uh Viking terminology he he had the uh Viking spacecraft when it was going by Saturn spacecraft when it was going by Saturn spacecraft when it was going by Saturn turn around and take a shot of planet turn around and take a shot of planet turn around and take a shot of planet Earth through the gossamer rings of Earth through the gossamer rings of Earth through the gossamer rings of Saturn. And in that photo, the Earth is Saturn. And in that photo, the Earth is Saturn. And in that photo, the Earth is this little tiny pale blue speck, sort this little tiny pale blue speck, sort this little tiny pale blue speck, sort of as we saw in the film as it went by of as we saw in the film as it went by of as we saw in the film as it went by there. And he in this wonderfully poetic there. And he in this wonderfully poetic there. And he in this wonderfully poetic passage described how everything we care passage described how everything we care passage described how everything we care about, everything we love, everything we

about, everything we love, everything we about, everything we love, everything we fight, the rivers of blood that have fight, the rivers of blood that have fight, the rivers of blood that have been spilled to conquer a tiny little been spilled to conquer a tiny little been spilled to conquer a tiny little fraction of a pixel in space. that gives fraction of a pixel in space. that gives fraction of a pixel in space. that gives you a setting where the concerns that you a setting where the concerns that you a setting where the concerns that you're mentioning of an individual human you're mentioning of an individual human you're mentioning of an individual human life of of countries of nations you life of of countries of nations you life of of countries of nations you realize how utterly small it is in the realize how utterly small it is in the realize how utterly small it is in the cosmological setting and again that to cosmological setting and again that to cosmological setting and again that to me isn't insignificance as you were me isn't insignificance as you were me isn't insignificance as you were saying it's liberation saying it's liberation saying it's liberation >> we have this um [clears throat] this >> we have this um [clears throat] this >> we have this um [clears throat] this spectrum of I guess confidence yeah in spectrum of I guess confidence yeah in spectrum of I guess confidence yeah in front of us here and on one end of it it front of us here and on one end of it it front of us here and on one end of it it says low confidence on this end it has says low confidence on this end it has says low confidence on this end it has high confidence and there's high confidence and there's high confidence and there's five little uh figurine type things five little uh figurine type things five little uh figurine type things there next to you. And what I would like there next to you. And what I would like there next to you. And what I would like you to do is to place them in line with you to do is to place them in line with you to do is to place them in line with your confidence that the thing is real. your confidence that the thing is real. your confidence that the thing is real. So the first one I'm going to ask you to So the first one I'm going to ask you to So the first one I'm going to ask you to place is those mini scales which place is those mini scales which place is those mini scales which represent free will. represent free will. represent free will. >> This guy here, free will. >> This guy here, free will. >> This guy here, free will. >> That's free will. Do you think humans >> That's free will. Do you think humans >> That's free will. Do you think humans have free will? Are you low confidence have free will? Are you low confidence have free will? Are you low confidence or high confidence? I'll push that or high confidence? I'll push that or high confidence? I'll push that further towards you so you can further towards you so you can further towards you so you can >> uh well uh I do not think we have free >> uh well uh I do not think we have free >> uh well uh I do not think we have free will and I have high confidence in that will and I have high confidence in that will and I have high confidence in that assessment which I guess means low assessment which I guess means low assessment which I guess means low confidence that we have free will.

confidence that we have free will. confidence that we have free will. >> What is free will >> What is free will >> What is free will >> to me? Free will is really just the >> to me? Free will is really just the >> to me? Free will is really just the everyday everyday everyday sense that you are the ultimate author sense that you are the ultimate author sense that you are the ultimate author of your actions. that the buck stops of your actions. that the buck stops of your actions. that the buck stops with you when it comes to the decisions with you when it comes to the decisions with you when it comes to the decisions that you make for how you are going to that you make for how you are going to that you make for how you are going to respond one way or another in the moment respond one way or another in the moment respond one way or another in the moment to moment existence of life. I don't to moment existence of life. I don't to moment existence of life. I don't think that freedom of the will is real. think that freedom of the will is real. think that freedom of the will is real. And I can give you a quick sense why it And I can give you a quick sense why it And I can give you a quick sense why it really is an extension of everything really is an extension of everything really is an extension of everything that we've already spoken about, which that we've already spoken about, which that we've already spoken about, which is, you know, when I look at you, I see is, you know, when I look at you, I see is, you know, when I look at you, I see a man, but I also imagine that I'm a man, but I also imagine that I'm a man, but I also imagine that I'm looking inside you and I see your looking inside you and I see your looking inside you and I see your particles. And so, you are a man-shaped particles. And so, you are a man-shaped particles. And so, you are a man-shaped collection of particles. That is what collection of particles. That is what collection of particles. That is what you are. And each of those particles and you are. And each of those particles and you are. And each of those particles and the elomeration of those particles are the elomeration of those particles are the elomeration of those particles are fully governed by the laws of physics. I fully governed by the laws of physics. I fully governed by the laws of physics. I don't say that we have those laws yet. don't say that we have those laws yet. don't say that we have those laws yet. We have an approximation to them with We have an approximation to them with We have an approximation to them with Schroinger and Einstein and all those Schroinger and Einstein and all those Schroinger and Einstein and all those folks. But I do believe that there is an folks. But I do believe that there is an folks. But I do believe that there is an ultimate set of principles that guide ultimate set of principles that guide ultimate set of principles that guide how your particles behave. You do not how your particles behave. You do not how your particles behave. You do not have the capacity to intercede in the have the capacity to intercede in the have the capacity to intercede in the lawful progression of your particles. So lawful progression of your particles. So lawful progression of your particles. So if you raise your hand, if you raise your hand, if you raise your hand, it is not you who is doing that. It is it is not you who is doing that. It is it is not you who is doing that. It is the laws of physics guiding the the laws of physics guiding the the laws of physics guiding the particles in your brain, sending an particles in your brain, sending an particles in your brain, sending an electrical signal down your arm, causing electrical signal down your arm, causing electrical signal down your arm, causing your muscle to contract or expand,

your muscle to contract or expand, your muscle to contract or expand, resulting in your hand going up. You resulting in your hand going up. You resulting in your hand going up. You don't control the laws that govern those don't control the laws that govern those don't control the laws that govern those particles. particles. particles. >> I didn't make the decision. >> I didn't make the decision. >> I didn't make the decision. >> You did not. You felt that you did. And >> You did not. You felt that you did. And >> You did not. You felt that you did. And so the feeling that you and I and so the feeling that you and I and so the feeling that you and I and everyone else have that we make everyone else have that we make everyone else have that we make decisions and those decisions result in decisions and those decisions result in decisions and those decisions result in our actions. It's a powerful it's a our actions. It's a powerful it's a our actions. It's a powerful it's a seductive sensibility. But no, I do not seductive sensibility. But no, I do not seductive sensibility. But no, I do not think that you are the place where that think that you are the place where that think that you are the place where that choice if you will occurred. The choice choice if you will occurred. The choice choice if you will occurred. The choice is actually within the lawful unfolding is actually within the lawful unfolding is actually within the lawful unfolding of the particles. And I can't control of the particles. And I can't control of the particles. And I can't control that particle motion. Therefore, I can't that particle motion. Therefore, I can't that particle motion. Therefore, I can't control the decision. Therefore, I don't control the decision. Therefore, I don't control the decision. Therefore, I don't control the motion of my arm. control the motion of my arm. control the motion of my arm. >> Therefore, I don't control my life. >> Therefore, I don't control my life. >> Therefore, I don't control my life. >> You don't in some sense if you buy into >> You don't in some sense if you buy into >> You don't in some sense if you buy into it fully. [snorts] it fully. [snorts] it fully. [snorts] It can be paralyzing. Or you can It can be paralyzing. Or you can It can be paralyzing. Or you can recognize it, which I do. And I say, recognize it, which I do. And I say, recognize it, which I do. And I say, "Okay, within that structure, I'm going "Okay, within that structure, I'm going "Okay, within that structure, I'm going to live my life as fully as I can." And to live my life as fully as I can." And to live my life as fully as I can." And I am able, not always cuz I'm a human I am able, not always cuz I'm a human I am able, not always cuz I'm a human being, but in the best of moments, I can being, but in the best of moments, I can being, but in the best of moments, I can pull back and have a certain objectivity pull back and have a certain objectivity pull back and have a certain objectivity about the things that happen in my life about the things that happen in my life about the things that happen in my life and I observe them at a remove as and I observe them at a remove as and I observe them at a remove as opposed to being completely wrapped up opposed to being completely wrapped up opposed to being completely wrapped up in the moment to moment. Now that in the moment to moment. Now that in the moment to moment. Now that doesn't make me an aloof person. It doesn't make me an aloof person. It doesn't make me an aloof person. It doesn't make me somebody who somehow is doesn't make me somebody who somehow is doesn't make me somebody who somehow is detached. No, it's just I can analyze detached. No, it's just I can analyze detached. No, it's just I can analyze the world at multiple levels.

the world at multiple levels. the world at multiple levels. >> So who is and what is guiding those >> So who is and what is guiding those >> So who is and what is guiding those particles to make the decisions that particles to make the decisions that particles to make the decisions that those particles are making? those particles are making? those particles are making? >> The best I can say and I think the best >> The best I can say and I think the best >> The best I can say and I think the best that we can say right now is that there that we can say right now is that there that we can say right now is that there is some body of law. Now what does that is some body of law. Now what does that is some body of law. Now what does that mean a body of law? There is some mean a body of law? There is some mean a body of law? There is some patterns that repeat in the world. Now patterns that repeat in the world. Now patterns that repeat in the world. Now you drop an apple and it falls on you drop an apple and it falls on you drop an apple and it falls on Newton's head repeatedly. You can rely Newton's head repeatedly. You can rely Newton's head repeatedly. You can rely upon certain kinds of particle motion upon certain kinds of particle motion upon certain kinds of particle motion because there's certain regularities in because there's certain regularities in because there's certain regularities in the world. And the regularities in the the world. And the regularities in the the world. And the regularities in the world are what I mean by the laws of world are what I mean by the laws of world are what I mean by the laws of physics. They may be articulated physics. They may be articulated physics. They may be articulated mathematically. Our best guess is as of mathematically. Our best guess is as of mathematically. Our best guess is as of today that math is the best language we today that math is the best language we today that math is the best language we have for describing those laws. But out have for describing those laws. But out have for describing those laws. But out there, I think there are some there, I think there are some there, I think there are some fundamental patterns and those patterns fundamental patterns and those patterns fundamental patterns and those patterns ultimately are what determine how the ultimately are what determine how the ultimately are what determine how the particles move. And so that's all that particles move. And so that's all that particles move. And so that's all that we are. We are a body of particles that we are. We are a body of particles that we are. We are a body of particles that move and that's responsible for why move and that's responsible for why move and that's responsible for why things do what they do. And remarkably, things do what they do. And remarkably, things do what they do. And remarkably, our brains allow us to self-reflect, to our brains allow us to self-reflect, to our brains allow us to self-reflect, to look at what we do and analyze it. And look at what we do and analyze it. And look at what we do and analyze it. And when we do that, we tend to ascribe when we do that, we tend to ascribe when we do that, we tend to ascribe authorship to ourselves.

authorship to ourselves. authorship to ourselves. But that's a story that we tell But that's a story that we tell But that's a story that we tell ourselves. It makes us feel good. It ourselves. It makes us feel good. It ourselves. It makes us feel good. It makes us feel part of the unfolding. It makes us feel part of the unfolding. It makes us feel part of the unfolding. It perhaps has an evolutionary utility that perhaps has an evolutionary utility that perhaps has an evolutionary utility that if you feel responsible for what you're if you feel responsible for what you're if you feel responsible for what you're doing, maybe it helps you to survive. doing, maybe it helps you to survive. doing, maybe it helps you to survive. Maybe that's why this way of thinking Maybe that's why this way of thinking Maybe that's why this way of thinking was inculcated over the course of was inculcated over the course of was inculcated over the course of generation upon generation. Maybe generation upon generation. Maybe generation upon generation. Maybe there's an evolutionary explanation. But there's an evolutionary explanation. But there's an evolutionary explanation. But fundamentally speaking, I don't think fundamentally speaking, I don't think fundamentally speaking, I don't think it's real. I was going to say then, it's real. I was going to say then, it's real. I was going to say then, well, maybe the the particles are trying well, maybe the the particles are trying well, maybe the the particles are trying to survive in this form. But even as I to survive in this form. But even as I to survive in this form. But even as I thought about that, I thought, so maybe thought about that, I thought, so maybe thought about that, I thought, so maybe my particles are making the decisions my particles are making the decisions my particles are making the decisions they make to raise my hand, to go on a they make to raise my hand, to go on a they make to raise my hand, to go on a holiday with my fiance, to have kids holiday with my fiance, to have kids holiday with my fiance, to have kids because they want to survive in this because they want to survive in this because they want to survive in this form, but actually I disappear at some form, but actually I disappear at some form, but actually I disappear at some point. point. point. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But my particles don't, >> But my particles don't, >> But my particles don't, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> They then become dirt or someone else or >> They then become dirt or someone else or >> They then become dirt or someone else or whatever or child. It doesn't seem that whatever or child. It doesn't seem that whatever or child. It doesn't seem that they care much about necessarily being they care much about necessarily being they care much about necessarily being in this form. in this form. in this form. >> They don't. I don't think they do. So I >> They don't. I don't think they do. So I >> They don't. I don't think they do. So I don't think they care. I don't even don't think they care. I don't even don't think they care. I don't even think the word care is applicable to think the word care is applicable to think the word care is applicable to them. The notion of caring is a them. The notion of caring is a them. The notion of caring is a highlevel construct that only emerges highlevel construct that only emerges highlevel construct that only emerges when the particles are configured when the particles are configured when the particles are configured sufficiently to yield a complex sufficiently to yield a complex sufficiently to yield a complex information processing system called the information processing system called the information processing system called the human brain human brain human brain >> and consciousness.

>> and consciousness. >> and consciousness. >> And consciousness. Now if you ask me >> And consciousness. Now if you ask me >> And consciousness. Now if you ask me where consciousness comes from, I don't where consciousness comes from, I don't where consciousness comes from, I don't know. sort of as we discussed before, I know. sort of as we discussed before, I know. sort of as we discussed before, I think it's just physical processes. think it's just physical processes. think it's just physical processes. Let's go with that. Assuming that's the Let's go with that. Assuming that's the Let's go with that. Assuming that's the case, this conscious self-awareness case, this conscious self-awareness case, this conscious self-awareness invents the idea of caring because it's invents the idea of caring because it's invents the idea of caring because it's a useful concept for us to organize our a useful concept for us to organize our a useful concept for us to organize our lives and our experiences. This lives and our experiences. This lives and our experiences. This conscious self-awareness in invents all conscious self-awareness in invents all conscious self-awareness in invents all the other words happy, sad, meaning, the other words happy, sad, meaning, the other words happy, sad, meaning, purpose, morality, activity, action, purpose, morality, activity, action, purpose, morality, activity, action, choice, decision, freedom, will all choice, decision, freedom, will all choice, decision, freedom, will all humanmade. These concepts don't exist humanmade. These concepts don't exist humanmade. These concepts don't exist out there in the universe. There's no out there in the universe. There's no out there in the universe. There's no notion of freedom of the will floating notion of freedom of the will floating notion of freedom of the will floating in space outside the Andromeda galaxy. in space outside the Andromeda galaxy. in space outside the Andromeda galaxy. This is a selection of ideas that we This is a selection of ideas that we This is a selection of ideas that we humans as a species have found to give humans as a species have found to give humans as a species have found to give us utilitarian advantage in organizing us utilitarian advantage in organizing us utilitarian advantage in organizing our experiences. That's all that it is. our experiences. That's all that it is. our experiences. That's all that it is. That doesn't diminish it. I don't go That doesn't diminish it. I don't go That doesn't diminish it. I don't go around trying to erase my sense of self.

around trying to erase my sense of self. around trying to erase my sense of self. I accept my sense of self, but I also I accept my sense of self, but I also I accept my sense of self, but I also see it for what it is, a human see it for what it is, a human see it for what it is, a human construct. construct. construct. >> Does that mean that consciousness and >> Does that mean that consciousness and >> Does that mean that consciousness and everything that I am could theoretically everything that I am could theoretically everything that I am could theoretically just be, as you said earlier, in the just be, as you said earlier, in the just be, as you said earlier, in the sort of pessimistic version of events? sort of pessimistic version of events? sort of pessimistic version of events? Random. Totally random. like Random. Totally random. like Random. Totally random. like consciousness itself was just the consciousness itself was just the consciousness itself was just the particles came together over a long particles came together over a long particles came together over a long enough period of time and then they they enough period of time and then they they enough period of time and then they they found this form and now I can found this form and now I can found this form and now I can >> it could and maybe it was random and >> it could and maybe it was random and >> it could and maybe it was random and happened only once on this planet right happened only once on this planet right happened only once on this planet right I mean again maybe there is life out I mean again maybe there is life out I mean again maybe there is life out there and maybe there's even complex there and maybe there's even complex there and maybe there's even complex life out there maybe even like as big as life out there maybe even like as big as life out there maybe even like as big as us or bigger but maybe when we encounter us or bigger but maybe when we encounter us or bigger but maybe when we encounter those life forms they have no idea of those life forms they have no idea of those life forms they have no idea of what it means to have an inner world what it means to have an inner world what it means to have an inner world >> this I think it was a physicist said to >> this I think it was a physicist said to >> this I think it was a physicist said to me Uh it was a bit of a spiritual me Uh it was a bit of a spiritual me Uh it was a bit of a spiritual esoteric idea, but they basically said esoteric idea, but they basically said esoteric idea, but they basically said to me that they think consciousness to me that they think consciousness to me that they think consciousness could be it could come from this sort of could be it could come from this sort of could be it could come from this sort of original source and it's divided itself original source and it's divided itself original source and it's divided itself up into the humans, the bees, the birds up into the humans, the bees, the birds up into the humans, the bees, the birds >> to go out there and understand the >> to go out there and understand the >> to go out there and understand the nature of the universe.

nature of the universe. nature of the universe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then when we die, we kind of return >> And then when we die, we kind of return >> And then when we die, we kind of return to the source. But you know, I'll give to the source. But you know, I'll give to the source. But you know, I'll give birth to a baby. They'll go off into birth to a baby. They'll go off into birth to a baby. They'll go off into different corners of the the earth and different corners of the the earth and different corners of the the earth and look at different things and have look at different things and have look at different things and have different experiences and it's all different experiences and it's all different experiences and it's all feeding back into this central feeding back into this central feeding back into this central consciousness which is sole objective is consciousness which is sole objective is consciousness which is sole objective is to understand itself. And it's funny cuz to understand itself. And it's funny cuz to understand itself. And it's funny cuz I heard this idea from this physicist I heard this idea from this physicist I heard this idea from this physicist and then I I was in a somewhere in and then I I was in a somewhere in and then I I was in a somewhere in Europe and I was driving down the road Europe and I was driving down the road Europe and I was driving down the road and I saw all of these tourists just and I saw all of these tourists just and I saw all of these tourists just like looking up at a mountain and they like looking up at a mountain and they like looking up at a mountain and they were just like looking out at the sea were just like looking out at the sea were just like looking out at the sea and they were looking at things that and they were looking at things that and they were looking at things that were interesting. Sure. Which is what we were interesting. Sure. Which is what we were interesting. Sure. Which is what we do as humans and I thought kind of makes do as humans and I thought kind of makes do as humans and I thought kind of makes sense sense sense >> that we're like we're actually just like >> that we're like we're actually just like >> that we're like we're actually just like consciousness. consciousness. consciousness. >> There's a philosophical position called >> There's a philosophical position called >> There's a philosophical position called idealism. And idealism holds that the idealism. And idealism holds that the idealism. And idealism holds that the fundamental truth of reality is fundamental truth of reality is fundamental truth of reality is consciousness. But fundamentally, consciousness. But fundamentally, consciousness. But fundamentally, everything that I've seen throughout my everything that I've seen throughout my everything that I've seen throughout my life suggests to me that that's not how life suggests to me that that's not how life suggests to me that that's not how it is. I can't prove it. I hope it's it is. I can't prove it. I hope it's it is. I can't prove it. I hope it's true. But if you ask me what I think is true. But if you ask me what I think is true. But if you ask me what I think is really true, I think that consciousness really true, I think that consciousness really true, I think that consciousness is something that emerges when there's a is something that emerges when there's a is something that emerges when there's a sufficient amount of information sufficient amount of information sufficient amount of information processing that itself is carried by the processing that itself is carried by the processing that itself is carried by the motion of particles through various motion of particles through various motion of particles through various interconnected structures.

interconnected structures. interconnected structures. >> Is my dog conscious? >> Is my dog conscious? >> Is my dog conscious? >> It is, but I think it's got a different >> It is, but I think it's got a different >> It is, but I think it's got a different level of consciousness. You can tell level of consciousness. You can tell level of consciousness. You can tell when they're feeling good, happy, or sad when they're feeling good, happy, or sad when they're feeling good, happy, or sad or frustrated or intrigued. The ears or frustrated or intrigued. The ears or frustrated or intrigued. The ears change, the eyes change, the shape of change, the eyes change, the shape of change, the eyes change, the shape of the face. You can't help but ascribe an the face. You can't help but ascribe an the face. You can't help but ascribe an inner world to that. And again, I always inner world to that. And again, I always inner world to that. And again, I always worry that the dogs, like the fish, are worry that the dogs, like the fish, are worry that the dogs, like the fish, are like these humans think they're so damn like these humans think they're so damn like these humans think they're so damn special, but we actually are special, but we actually are special, but we actually are welldeveloped, well beyond them, and welldeveloped, well beyond them, and welldeveloped, well beyond them, and we're just playing along. In fact, in we're just playing along. In fact, in we're just playing along. In fact, in New York City, who picks up the poop, New York City, who picks up the poop, New York City, who picks up the poop, right? We pick up the poop. So, the dog right? We pick up the poop. So, the dog right? We pick up the poop. So, the dog walks along as like this, you know, walks along as like this, you know, walks along as like this, you know, king-like being, and we behind them with king-like being, and we behind them with king-like being, and we behind them with these little plastic bags. So, who's these little plastic bags. So, who's these little plastic bags. So, who's really in charge? But putting that to really in charge? But putting that to really in charge? But putting that to the side, I do think that the dogs and the side, I do think that the dogs and the side, I do think that the dogs and the cats have a level of conscious the cats have a level of conscious the cats have a level of conscious awareness. And I think you go down awareness. And I think you go down awareness. And I think you go down through the animal kingdom. If you were through the animal kingdom. If you were through the animal kingdom. If you were to ask me, does an insect have to ask me, does an insect have to ask me, does an insect have consciousness? Then I'm less clear. I consciousness? Then I'm less clear. I consciousness? Then I'm less clear. I suspect not. If you ask me whether a suspect not. If you ask me whether a suspect not. If you ask me whether a virus or a bacterium has consciousness, virus or a bacterium has consciousness, virus or a bacterium has consciousness, I don't think so. I don't think there's I don't think so. I don't think there's I don't think so. I don't think there's adequate information processing capacity adequate information processing capacity adequate information processing capacity in those structures to have the kind of in those structures to have the kind of in those structures to have the kind of rich inner world that we would normally rich inner world that we would normally rich inner world that we would normally ascribe to a conscious being, but that's ascribe to a conscious being, but that's ascribe to a conscious being, but that's all that I think it is. I don't think all that I think it is. I don't think all that I think it is. I don't think that there's some uber universal that there's some uber universal that there's some uber universal consciousness that's out there that we consciousness that's out there that we consciousness that's out there that we go back to when we die. Not that I go back to when we die. Not that I go back to when we die. Not that I wouldn't like it. I just don't think wouldn't like it. I just don't think wouldn't like it. I just don't think it's true. Moreover, I can understand it's true. Moreover, I can understand it's true. Moreover, I can understand why humans would introduce this idea.

why humans would introduce this idea. why humans would introduce this idea. Again, it's Ernest Becker and the denial Again, it's Ernest Becker and the denial Again, it's Ernest Becker and the denial of death. How wonderful to say, yeah, of death. How wonderful to say, yeah, of death. How wonderful to say, yeah, our bodies die. Sure. But our our bodies die. Sure. But our our bodies die. Sure. But our consciousness, it doesn't die. Our consciousness, it doesn't die. Our consciousness, it doesn't die. Our consciousness, it floats off and it consciousness, it floats off and it consciousness, it floats off and it rejoins the universal. Wow. That makes rejoins the universal. Wow. That makes rejoins the universal. Wow. That makes you feel good. And we tell these stories you feel good. And we tell these stories you feel good. And we tell these stories that make us feel good. And there's that make us feel good. And there's that make us feel good. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, I do nothing wrong with that. However, I do nothing wrong with that. However, I do think it's important that we see them think it's important that we see them think it's important that we see them for what they are, which are human for what they are, which are human for what they are, which are human authored stories to compat our own authored stories to compat our own authored stories to compat our own recognition that we are mortal beings. recognition that we are mortal beings. recognition that we are mortal beings. >> Moving on to the next one is the >> Moving on to the next one is the >> Moving on to the next one is the universe there on the little card. We universe there on the little card. We universe there on the little card. We talked about this a little bit and talked about this a little bit and talked about this a little bit and you've given your answer already, but do you've given your answer already, but do you've given your answer already, but do you think the universe is infinite? you think the universe is infinite? you think the universe is infinite? >> I don't know, but I'm going to put it >> I don't know, but I'm going to put it >> I don't know, but I'm going to put it sort of around here. You know, in fact, sort of around here. You know, in fact, sort of around here. You know, in fact, lately I should tell you the work that lately I should tell you the work that lately I should tell you the work that I've been doing has imagined that the I've been doing has imagined that the I've been doing has imagined that the universe is not infinite. So, I've been universe is not infinite. So, I've been universe is not infinite. So, I've been doing a lot of scientific exploration doing a lot of scientific exploration doing a lot of scientific exploration with mathematics with a handful of with mathematics with a handful of with mathematics with a handful of colleagues and the kind of weird things colleagues and the kind of weird things colleagues and the kind of weird things that can happen if it's not infinite.

that can happen if it's not infinite. that can happen if it's not infinite. And it's very interesting. There's a lot And it's very interesting. There's a lot And it's very interesting. There's a lot of mileage that you can extract from a of mileage that you can extract from a of mileage that you can extract from a universe that you go off in that way and universe that you go off in that way and universe that you go off in that way and you wind up coming back to your starting you wind up coming back to your starting you wind up coming back to your starting point much like you would on the surface point much like you would on the surface point much like you would on the surface of the earth. It's a finite extent. But of the earth. It's a finite extent. But of the earth. It's a finite extent. But if you ask me in my heart of hearts, if if you ask me in my heart of hearts, if if you ask me in my heart of hearts, if I was forced to make a choice, I would I was forced to make a choice, I would I was forced to make a choice, I would say infinite with a medium level of say infinite with a medium level of say infinite with a medium level of confidence. confidence. confidence. >> What about do you think life could exist >> What about do you think life could exist >> What about do you think life could exist outside of Earth? And I'll say outside of Earth? And I'll say outside of Earth? And I'll say intelligent life. intelligent life. intelligent life. >> Intelligent life. >> Intelligent life. >> Intelligent life. >> Do you think intelligent life exists >> Do you think intelligent life exists >> Do you think intelligent life exists outside of Earth? outside of Earth? outside of Earth? >> Yeah. So for intelligent aliens, I'm >> Yeah. So for intelligent aliens, I'm >> Yeah. So for intelligent aliens, I'm going to definitely go a little bit more going to definitely go a little bit more going to definitely go a little bit more over here. You know, I put it as uh it's over here. You know, I put it as uh it's over here. You know, I put it as uh it's possible. Obviously it happened once possible. Obviously it happened once possible. Obviously it happened once therefore it could happen again. Yeah. therefore it could happen again. Yeah. therefore it could happen again. Yeah. Obviously intelligence is not somehow Obviously intelligence is not somehow Obviously intelligence is not somehow contradictory to the way the universe contradictory to the way the universe contradictory to the way the universe evolves. It can support conscious and evolves. It can support conscious and evolves. It can support conscious and intelligent beings. But I think it may intelligent beings. But I think it may intelligent beings. But I think it may be special. be special. be special. >> Is there not a bit of a contradiction >> Is there not a bit of a contradiction >> Is there not a bit of a contradiction here though with these two things that here though with these two things that here though with these two things that you think the universe is infinite? you think the universe is infinite? you think the universe is infinite? >> Oh when I say this I should say within >> Oh when I say this I should say within >> Oh when I say this I should say within the observable universe.

the observable universe. the observable universe. >> Oh okay. >> Oh okay. >> Oh okay. >> Yeah. So in the entire expanse of the >> Yeah. So in the entire expanse of the >> Yeah. So in the entire expanse of the universe as opposed to the observable universe as opposed to the observable universe as opposed to the observable part which again is a part that even in part which again is a part that even in part which again is a part that even in principle we could have connection with principle we could have connection with principle we could have connection with then yeah I would absolutely put in then yeah I would absolutely put in then yeah I would absolutely put in exactly the same place because there'd exactly the same place because there'd exactly the same place because there'd be copies of us out there. But if we be copies of us out there. But if we be copies of us out there. But if we talk instead about are we going to get a talk instead about are we going to get a talk instead about are we going to get a signal signal signal are we going to be visited then I put are we going to be visited then I put are we going to be visited then I put that at much lower confidence. And in that at much lower confidence. And in that at much lower confidence. And in fact, I I would say one thing about the fact, I I would say one thing about the fact, I I would say one thing about the visitation because you mentioned the visitation because you mentioned the visitation because you mentioned the interest that people have on aliens. I interest that people have on aliens. I interest that people have on aliens. I find it really odd that people are taken find it really odd that people are taken find it really odd that people are taken with these photographs that are meant to with these photographs that are meant to with these photographs that are meant to sort of just catch the alien ship as it sort of just catch the alien ship as it sort of just catch the alien ship as it was racing. If an alien could travel was racing. If an alien could travel was racing. If an alien could travel across the galaxy, say to reach us, they across the galaxy, say to reach us, they across the galaxy, say to reach us, they are so technologically advanced that the are so technologically advanced that the are so technologically advanced that the idea that our araic airplanes and their idea that our araic airplanes and their idea that our araic airplanes and their cameras could capture a photograph of cameras could capture a photograph of cameras could capture a photograph of them is ludicrous. They will be able to them is ludicrous. They will be able to them is ludicrous. They will be able to evade us in so simply that the idea that evade us in so simply that the idea that evade us in so simply that the idea that we just barely caught them on our we just barely caught them on our we just barely caught them on our cameras is is absolutely ridiculous.

cameras is is absolutely ridiculous. cameras is is absolutely ridiculous. Moreover, if they could travel to us, Moreover, if they could travel to us, Moreover, if they could travel to us, again, I'm talking about traveling again, I'm talking about traveling again, I'm talking about traveling across light years, right? I mean, our across light years, right? I mean, our across light years, right? I mean, our galaxy, 100,000 light years, end to end, galaxy, 100,000 light years, end to end, galaxy, 100,000 light years, end to end, right? To be able to traverse that right? To be able to traverse that right? To be able to traverse that requires a level of technological requires a level of technological requires a level of technological sophistication that is so beyond sophistication that is so beyond sophistication that is so beyond anything that we can do. To imagine that anything that we can do. To imagine that anything that we can do. To imagine that beings that advanced would be interested beings that advanced would be interested beings that advanced would be interested in us. So interested that they would in us. So interested that they would in us. So interested that they would like kidnap us. That'd be like saying, like kidnap us. That'd be like saying, like kidnap us. That'd be like saying, "I was walking to the park yesterday. "I was walking to the park yesterday. "I was walking to the park yesterday. Don't tell anyone, but I kidnapped an Don't tell anyone, but I kidnapped an Don't tell anyone, but I kidnapped an ant. There's an ant walking along and ant. There's an ant walking along and ant. There's an ant walking along and nobody was looking and I sort of nobody was looking and I sort of nobody was looking and I sort of kidnapped it." We don't do that because kidnapped it." We don't do that because kidnapped it." We don't do that because it's not interesting. Similarly, we it's not interesting. Similarly, we it's not interesting. Similarly, we would not be of interest to the aliens would not be of interest to the aliens would not be of interest to the aliens because they're so incredibly advanced because they're so incredibly advanced because they're so incredibly advanced that this idea that they're abducting us that this idea that they're abducting us that this idea that they're abducting us is just ludicrous. is just ludicrous. is just ludicrous. Is it going to be possible? You know, we Is it going to be possible? You know, we Is it going to be possible? You know, we were talking earlier on about the were talking earlier on about the were talking earlier on about the possibilities that artificial possibilities that artificial possibilities that artificial intelligence is going to unlock. Is it intelligence is going to unlock. Is it intelligence is going to unlock. Is it possible within the laws of physics for possible within the laws of physics for possible within the laws of physics for us at some point when we get us at some point when we get us at some point when we get sufficiently intelligent to travel sufficiently intelligent to travel sufficiently intelligent to travel across the universe?

across the universe? across the universe? >> It's a that's a it's a great question. >> It's a that's a it's a great question. >> It's a that's a it's a great question. It's a tough one. So, It's a tough one. So, It's a tough one. So, if the technological advancement was if the technological advancement was if the technological advancement was simply making our ships faster, no. simply making our ships faster, no. simply making our ships faster, no. Because even if you traveled near the Because even if you traveled near the Because even if you traveled near the speed of light, which is the ultimate speed of light, which is the ultimate speed of light, which is the ultimate speed limit, you know, to go to the speed limit, you know, to go to the speed limit, you know, to go to the nearest star, Alpha Centuri, it would nearest star, Alpha Centuri, it would nearest star, Alpha Centuri, it would take you four years even at the speed of take you four years even at the speed of take you four years even at the speed of light to get there, right? And then if light to get there, right? And then if light to get there, right? And then if you actually want to go not just to the you actually want to go not just to the you actually want to go not just to the nearby star, but to actually across the nearby star, but to actually across the nearby star, but to actually across the galaxy, again, you're talking a 100,000 galaxy, again, you're talking a 100,000 galaxy, again, you're talking a 100,000 years to do that. So that brute years to do that. So that brute years to do that. So that brute straightforward approach will not straightforward approach will not straightforward approach will not succeed. However, there are exotic ideas succeed. However, there are exotic ideas succeed. However, there are exotic ideas of things called wormholes you've of things called wormholes you've of things called wormholes you've probably encountered. These are these probably encountered. These are these probably encountered. These are these ideas of a wormhole is like a tunnel. ideas of a wormhole is like a tunnel. ideas of a wormhole is like a tunnel. What is a tunnel on Earth? A tunnel is a What is a tunnel on Earth? A tunnel is a What is a tunnel on Earth? A tunnel is a shortcut that gets you from here to here shortcut that gets you from here to here shortcut that gets you from here to here without having to go over the mountain, without having to go over the mountain, without having to go over the mountain, right? Tunnel it right through. There's right? Tunnel it right through. There's right? Tunnel it right through. There's an analogous idea that people float in an analogous idea that people float in an analogous idea that people float in the universe where to get from here to the universe where to get from here to the universe where to get from here to there, there may be a shortcut, a kind there, there may be a shortcut, a kind there, there may be a shortcut, a kind of tunnel that connects them and is a of tunnel that connects them and is a of tunnel that connects them and is a quicker way of getting from point A to quicker way of getting from point A to quicker way of getting from point A to point B. We don't know if these tunnels point B. We don't know if these tunnels point B. We don't know if these tunnels through space exist. We don't know if through space exist. We don't know if through space exist. We don't know if they existed whether we could actually they existed whether we could actually they existed whether we could actually get through them. And so it's a highly get through them. And so it's a highly get through them. And so it's a highly speculative idea. But if they do exist speculative idea. But if they do exist speculative idea. But if they do exist and if we one day can create them and and if we one day can create them and and if we one day can create them and manipulate and control them, then at manipulate and control them, then at manipulate and control them, then at least in principle we could take two least in principle we could take two least in principle we could take two distant locations like this corner and distant locations like this corner and distant locations like this corner and this corner. But imagine that we could

this corner. But imagine that we could this corner. But imagine that we could manipulate this surface, fold it manipulate this surface, fold it manipulate this surface, fold it together to bring the two corners next together to bring the two corners next together to bring the two corners next to each other and build a little tunnel to each other and build a little tunnel to each other and build a little tunnel between them. Then we could go from one between them. Then we could go from one between them. Then we could go from one end to the other by going through that end to the other by going through that end to the other by going through that shortcut. That's a very far out idea, shortcut. That's a very far out idea, shortcut. That's a very far out idea, >> but there's no evidence of this. >> but there's no evidence of this. >> but there's no evidence of this. >> There's no evidence at all. Now, now let >> There's no evidence at all. Now, now let >> There's no evidence at all. Now, now let me just say again, much as we discussed me just say again, much as we discussed me just say again, much as we discussed earlier, this idea is not just some wild earlier, this idea is not just some wild earlier, this idea is not just some wild late night musing of a physicist. It late night musing of a physicist. It late night musing of a physicist. It comes out of the math of Einstein's comes out of the math of Einstein's comes out of the math of Einstein's general relativity that these wormholes general relativity that these wormholes general relativity that these wormholes could exist. In fact, Einstein himself could exist. In fact, Einstein himself could exist. In fact, Einstein himself in 1935 wrote a paper with a colleague in 1935 wrote a paper with a colleague in 1935 wrote a paper with a colleague Nathan Rosen where they introduced this Nathan Rosen where they introduced this Nathan Rosen where they introduced this idea that we now call wormholes. We're idea that we now call wormholes. We're idea that we now call wormholes. We're no further along in knowing whether no further along in knowing whether no further along in knowing whether wormholes are real than Einstein was wormholes are real than Einstein was wormholes are real than Einstein was back then. We've analyzed them. We back then. We've analyzed them. We back then. We've analyzed them. We developed the mathematics. You know, developed the mathematics. You know, developed the mathematics. You know, science fiction has taken this idea, you science fiction has taken this idea, you science fiction has taken this idea, you know, in Interstellar. I believe Matthew know, in Interstellar. I believe Matthew know, in Interstellar. I believe Matthew McConey, he goes through a wormhole. McConey, he goes through a wormhole. McConey, he goes through a wormhole. Jodie Foster went through one in Jodie Foster went through one in Jodie Foster went through one in contact. You know, they're they're a contact. You know, they're they're a contact. You know, they're they're a ubiquitous feature of science fiction ubiquitous feature of science fiction ubiquitous feature of science fiction trying to allow for the kinds of travel trying to allow for the kinds of travel trying to allow for the kinds of travel across the galaxy that otherwise would across the galaxy that otherwise would across the galaxy that otherwise would be impossible. But whether this is be impossible. But whether this is be impossible. But whether this is actually real, no, nobody knows.

actually real, no, nobody knows. actually real, no, nobody knows. >> What about time travel? >> What about time travel? >> What about time travel? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Can can we travel backwards in time >> Can can we travel backwards in time >> Can can we travel backwards in time within the laws of physics? Yeah, that within the laws of physics? Yeah, that within the laws of physics? Yeah, that is the the the way of phrasing it is the the the way of phrasing it is the the the way of phrasing it because if you ask me the reverse because if you ask me the reverse because if you ask me the reverse question, can we travel to the future? I question, can we travel to the future? I question, can we travel to the future? I would say yeah, that kind of time travel would say yeah, that kind of time travel would say yeah, that kind of time travel we highly confident of. So I don't have we highly confident of. So I don't have we highly confident of. So I don't have a little thing for that. But let's call, a little thing for that. But let's call, a little thing for that. But let's call, you know, this is time travel to the you know, this is time travel to the you know, this is time travel to the future, right? I put it very very high future, right? I put it very very high future, right? I put it very very high confidence for that. confidence for that. confidence for that. >> You think we can travel to the future? >> You think we can travel to the future? >> You think we can travel to the future? >> Yes, in principle. Executing it a >> Yes, in principle. Executing it a >> Yes, in principle. Executing it a different story. But one of the things different story. But one of the things different story. But one of the things that emerges from Einstein's special and that emerges from Einstein's special and that emerges from Einstein's special and general relativity is that the way time general relativity is that the way time general relativity is that the way time elapses for you and for me is variable elapses for you and for me is variable elapses for you and for me is variable depending upon how fast we move and the depending upon how fast we move and the depending upon how fast we move and the strength of the gravity that we strength of the gravity that we strength of the gravity that we experience. So for instance, if I want experience. So for instance, if I want experience. So for instance, if I want to see what your life would be like 60 to see what your life would be like 60 to see what your life would be like 60 years from now, Einstein laid out a years from now, Einstein laid out a years from now, Einstein laid out a blueprint for how I could do that. I blueprint for how I could do that. I blueprint for how I could do that. I build a spaceship. I travel out into build a spaceship. I travel out into build a spaceship. I travel out into space near the speed of light. I go for space near the speed of light. I go for space near the speed of light. I go for a certain period of time, maybe about a certain period of time, maybe about a certain period of time, maybe about six months. I turn around, I come back six months. I turn around, I come back six months. I turn around, I come back six more months. I come back, I'm one six more months. I come back, I'm one six more months. I come back, I'm one year older, 6 months, 6 months. But you year older, 6 months, 6 months. But you year older, 6 months, 6 months. But you will be 60 years older if I traveled will be 60 years older if I traveled will be 60 years older if I traveled sufficiently close to the speed of light sufficiently close to the speed of light sufficiently close to the speed of light because my clock would be ticking off because my clock would be ticking off because my clock would be ticking off slow compared to your clock. Your clock slow compared to your clock. Your clock slow compared to your clock. Your clock went through 60 years while my clock went through 60 years while my clock went through 60 years while my clock went through one year. There is no went through one year. There is no went through one year. There is no physicist who knows what they are physicist who knows what they are physicist who knows what they are talking about who disputes this. Now,

talking about who disputes this. Now, talking about who disputes this. Now, it's not controversial, but if you then it's not controversial, but if you then it's not controversial, but if you then say to me, well, do it. I'd say I don't say to me, well, do it. I'd say I don't say to me, well, do it. I'd say I don't know how to build a spaceship that goes know how to build a spaceship that goes know how to build a spaceship that goes that fast. At least not yet. that fast. At least not yet. that fast. At least not yet. >> You would only have aged one year. >> You would only have aged one year. >> You would only have aged one year. Correct. But I would have aged 60 years. Correct. But I would have aged 60 years. Correct. But I would have aged 60 years. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Could you then go back? >> Could you then go back? >> Could you then go back? >> Ah, I don't know. And if you were to ask >> Ah, I don't know. And if you were to ask >> Ah, I don't know. And if you were to ask me to give my confidence on going back, me to give my confidence on going back, me to give my confidence on going back, I would say it's pretty pretty low. I would say it's pretty pretty low. I would say it's pretty pretty low. People have written proposals for how People have written proposals for how People have written proposals for how you could go back. They do involve you could go back. They do involve you could go back. They do involve things like wormholes. That is one things like wormholes. That is one things like wormholes. That is one possibility because if you have a have a possibility because if you have a have a possibility because if you have a have a tunnel from one point in space to tunnel from one point in space to tunnel from one point in space to another. If you then move the openings another. If you then move the openings another. If you then move the openings at different speeds, their clocks will at different speeds, their clocks will at different speeds, their clocks will tick off at different rates. This clock tick off at different rates. This clock tick off at different rates. This clock may be before this clock. So if I travel may be before this clock. So if I travel may be before this clock. So if I travel this way, I'm going one way in time. If this way, I'm going one way in time. If this way, I'm going one way in time. If I'm traveling that way, I'm going the I'm traveling that way, I'm going the I'm traveling that way, I'm going the reverse way in time. But again, like we reverse way in time. But again, like we reverse way in time. But again, like we said before, we don't know if wormholes said before, we don't know if wormholes said before, we don't know if wormholes are real. If they are real, you might in are real. If they are real, you might in are real. If they are real, you might in principle be able to travel back. But if principle be able to travel back. But if principle be able to travel back. But if you ask me, do I think that you can low you ask me, do I think that you can low you ask me, do I think that you can low low confidence that you can travel back? low confidence that you can travel back? low confidence that you can travel back? >> You've used the word Einstein a few >> You've used the word Einstein a few >> You've used the word Einstein a few times. Yeah. And I think uh this times. Yeah. And I think uh this times. Yeah. And I think uh this generation, you know, we we exist with generation, you know, we we exist with generation, you know, we we exist with AI now and calculators and all this AI now and calculators and all this AI now and calculators and all this incredible knowledge that has come from incredible knowledge that has come from incredible knowledge that has come from sort of standing on the shoulders of so sort of standing on the shoulders of so sort of standing on the shoulders of so many of these giants. Who do you think many of these giants. Who do you think many of these giants. Who do you think is the smartest person to have ever is the smartest person to have ever is the smartest person to have ever lived in your estimation?

lived in your estimation? lived in your estimation? >> It's a tough one. People often make it >> It's a tough one. People often make it >> It's a tough one. People often make it an easier question by saying who's an easier question by saying who's an easier question by saying who's smarter, Isaac Newton or Albert smarter, Isaac Newton or Albert smarter, Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein. And first my answer is when Einstein. And first my answer is when Einstein. And first my answer is when you talk about that level, it doesn't you talk about that level, it doesn't you talk about that level, it doesn't matter who's smarter. But if you really matter who's smarter. But if you really matter who's smarter. But if you really press me, I think I'd say Isaac Newton press me, I think I'd say Isaac Newton press me, I think I'd say Isaac Newton because Newton kind of went from nothing because Newton kind of went from nothing because Newton kind of went from nothing to develop the laws of physics. There to develop the laws of physics. There to develop the laws of physics. There were people before, but there wasn't were people before, but there wasn't were people before, but there wasn't really a mindset that the universe really a mindset that the universe really a mindset that the universe should be articulable in a few should be articulable in a few should be articulable in a few mathematical equations. And yet, here mathematical equations. And yet, here mathematical equations. And yet, here comes along Isaac Newton and he writes comes along Isaac Newton and he writes comes along Isaac Newton and he writes down the equation that we teach high down the equation that we teach high down the equation that we teach high school kids, F= ma, force equals mass school kids, F= ma, force equals mass school kids, F= ma, force equals mass time acceleration, which governs just time acceleration, which governs just time acceleration, which governs just about everything in the world around us about everything in the world around us about everything in the world around us non-quantum mechanically. He writes down non-quantum mechanically. He writes down non-quantum mechanically. He writes down the law of gravity f= g m1 m2 over r2 the law of gravity f= g m1 m2 over r2 the law of gravity f= g m1 m2 over r2 articulating how the gravitational force articulating how the gravitational force articulating how the gravitational force works and he was sort of doing this on works and he was sort of doing this on works and he was sort of doing this on he invents calculus in order to be able he invents calculus in order to be able he invents calculus in order to be able to use that as a tool for articulating to use that as a tool for articulating to use that as a tool for articulating the laws of physics. I mean he kind of the laws of physics. I mean he kind of the laws of physics. I mean he kind of went from no real architecture of went from no real architecture of went from no real architecture of physics to a solid mathematical physics to a solid mathematical physics to a solid mathematical formulation. Einstein came along and formulation. Einstein came along and formulation. Einstein came along and there was already a lot of physics. I there was already a lot of physics. I there was already a lot of physics. I think going from nothing to the first think going from nothing to the first think going from nothing to the first step that's hard to imagine.

step that's hard to imagine. step that's hard to imagine. >> Was Newton >> Was Newton >> Was Newton to some degree like neurody divergent? to some degree like neurody divergent? to some degree like neurody divergent? How could he be so genius? How could he be so genius? How could he be so genius? >> I wish I knew the answer to a question >> I wish I knew the answer to a question >> I wish I knew the answer to a question like that like you know what is it like that like you know what is it like that like you know what is it inside their heads that allows them to inside their heads that allows them to inside their heads that allows them to do the things that just are superhuman do the things that just are superhuman do the things that just are superhuman or feel superhuman to us? I have no or feel superhuman to us? I have no or feel superhuman to us? I have no idea. Now Newton was a kind of weird idea. Now Newton was a kind of weird idea. Now Newton was a kind of weird fella, right? He was deeply religious as fella, right? He was deeply religious as fella, right? He was deeply religious as makes sense for the time. He was makes sense for the time. He was makes sense for the time. He was ultimately, you know, in the government ultimately, you know, in the government ultimately, you know, in the government tracking down counterfeits and and tracking down counterfeits and and tracking down counterfeits and and hanging them. I mean, there seems to be hanging them. I mean, there seems to be hanging them. I mean, there seems to be a certain kerogenly side of him that was a certain kerogenly side of him that was a certain kerogenly side of him that was also part of his genius. Uh he once also part of his genius. Uh he once also part of his genius. Uh he once reportedly took a a knitting needle and reportedly took a a knitting needle and reportedly took a a knitting needle and stuck it in his eye between the ball and stuck it in his eye between the ball and stuck it in his eye between the ball and the socket to see if he could manipulate the socket to see if he could manipulate the socket to see if he could manipulate sight through mechanical pressure. I sight through mechanical pressure. I sight through mechanical pressure. I mean who does these kinds of things, mean who does these kinds of things, mean who does these kinds of things, right? So he was a different thinker but right? So he was a different thinker but right? So he was a different thinker but clearly one who ultimately was able to clearly one who ultimately was able to clearly one who ultimately was able to see deeper you know and as you said you see deeper you know and as you said you see deeper you know and as you said you know standing on the shoulders of giants know standing on the shoulders of giants know standing on the shoulders of giants you know and there was a certain you know and there was a certain you know and there was a certain humility that came through. There's a humility that came through. There's a humility that came through. There's a beautiful quote where he describes beautiful quote where he describes beautiful quote where he describes himself as a boy playing on the himself as a boy playing on the himself as a boy playing on the seashore, having found a smoother shell seashore, having found a smoother shell seashore, having found a smoother shell and prettier pebble than most, while the and prettier pebble than most, while the and prettier pebble than most, while the great ocean of truth, he said, lay great ocean of truth, he said, lay great ocean of truth, he said, lay before me, all undiscovered. He knew before me, all undiscovered. He knew before me, all undiscovered. He knew that we were just on the shore, and we that we were just on the shore, and we that we were just on the shore, and we taken our first baby step into the taken our first baby step into the taken our first baby step into the cosmic ocean, and there is much more to

cosmic ocean, and there is much more to cosmic ocean, and there is much more to be discovered. be discovered. be discovered. Is it conceivable that the next Newton Is it conceivable that the next Newton Is it conceivable that the next Newton or Einstein is going to be an artificial or Einstein is going to be an artificial or Einstein is going to be an artificial intelligence? Could it be Claude? intelligence? Could it be Claude? intelligence? Could it be Claude? >> Yes, it could absolutely be. Look, I I >> Yes, it could absolutely be. Look, I I >> Yes, it could absolutely be. Look, I I like to think of scientific creativity like to think of scientific creativity like to think of scientific creativity or creativity in general in sort of or creativity in general in sort of or creativity in general in sort of three main buckets. It's a coarse three main buckets. It's a coarse three main buckets. It's a coarse organization, but I think it's helpful. organization, but I think it's helpful. organization, but I think it's helpful. One bucket of creativity is the ability One bucket of creativity is the ability One bucket of creativity is the ability to see the landscape of possibilities to see the landscape of possibilities to see the landscape of possibilities more fully than a mortal human being. more fully than a mortal human being. more fully than a mortal human being. And there's a lot that emerges from the And there's a lot that emerges from the And there's a lot that emerges from the ability to do that. For instance, you ability to do that. For instance, you ability to do that. For instance, you know, if you're a chess player, you you know, if you're a chess player, you you know, if you're a chess player, you you can see the spectrum of allowed moves can see the spectrum of allowed moves can see the spectrum of allowed moves that are available to you more than the that are available to you more than the that are available to you more than the ordinary chess player. You know, if ordinary chess player. You know, if ordinary chess player. You know, if you're a scientist, you can sort of see you're a scientist, you can sort of see you're a scientist, you can sort of see the landscape of ideas and equations the landscape of ideas and equations the landscape of ideas and equations that you might bring to bear on a puzzle that you might bring to bear on a puzzle that you might bring to bear on a puzzle more than somebody else. And that is more than somebody else. And that is more than somebody else. And that is what allows you to achieve greatness. what allows you to achieve greatness. what allows you to achieve greatness. Artificial systems, they have the entire Artificial systems, they have the entire Artificial systems, they have the entire landscape, right? They've read the landscape, right? They've read the landscape, right? They've read the entire internet. They've read every entire internet. They've read every entire internet. They've read every textbook. They know everything that we textbook. They know everything that we textbook. They know everything that we have ever developed. So, in that kind of have ever developed. So, in that kind of have ever developed. So, in that kind of creativity, obviously, they're going to creativity, obviously, they're going to creativity, obviously, they're going to excel. And we've seen that a human can't excel. And we've seen that a human can't excel. And we've seen that a human can't beat an AI any longer in chess. A human beat an AI any longer in chess. A human beat an AI any longer in chess. A human can't beat an AI system in Go, right? I can't beat an AI system in Go, right? I can't beat an AI system in Go, right? I mean, this famous example with Alph Go, mean, this famous example with Alph Go, mean, this famous example with Alph Go, right? Move 37 has become this sort of right? Move 37 has become this sort of right? Move 37 has become this sort of iconic move where, you know, Lee Sadal,

iconic move where, you know, Lee Sadal, iconic move where, you know, Lee Sadal, the world champion, is playing and you the world champion, is playing and you the world champion, is playing and you can see it on his face. The AI makes a can see it on his face. The AI makes a can see it on his face. The AI makes a move and is he smiles momentarily and move and is he smiles momentarily and move and is he smiles momentarily and he's like, "Oh, it messed up." And then he's like, "Oh, it messed up." And then he's like, "Oh, it messed up." And then his face changes because he slowly his face changes because he slowly his face changes because he slowly realizes that wasn't a mistake. Even the realizes that wasn't a mistake. Even the realizes that wasn't a mistake. Even the commentators, if you listen to, they commentators, if you listen to, they commentators, if you listen to, they were like, "Oh my god, the AI has made a were like, "Oh my god, the AI has made a were like, "Oh my god, the AI has made a mistake. What a blunder the AI has mistake. What a blunder the AI has mistake. What a blunder the AI has made." And then within 20 30 seconds, made." And then within 20 30 seconds, made." And then within 20 30 seconds, you're like, "Oh, oh, that was genius." you're like, "Oh, oh, that was genius." you're like, "Oh, oh, that was genius." Why? The AI could see the spectrum of Why? The AI could see the spectrum of Why? The AI could see the spectrum of possibilities more than a human being. possibilities more than a human being. possibilities more than a human being. So at that level of creativity, AI will So at that level of creativity, AI will So at that level of creativity, AI will win. Second bin of creativity, second win. Second bin of creativity, second win. Second bin of creativity, second bucket is putting together divergent bucket is putting together divergent bucket is putting together divergent ideas in a way that no one has thought ideas in a way that no one has thought ideas in a way that no one has thought of before and in that way making of before and in that way making of before and in that way making progress. You know that's kind of what progress. You know that's kind of what progress. You know that's kind of what Einstein did in general relativity. Put Einstein did in general relativity. Put Einstein did in general relativity. Put together Romanian geometry and Newtonian together Romanian geometry and Newtonian together Romanian geometry and Newtonian gravity yielded the general theory of gravity yielded the general theory of gravity yielded the general theory of relativity. But again, AIs, since they relativity. But again, AIs, since they relativity. But again, AIs, since they know everything that we've ever know everything that we've ever know everything that we've ever developed, developed, developed, can combine things in a way that we can combine things in a way that we can combine things in a way that we would never have thought of. The final would never have thought of. The final would never have thought of. The final domain is the one where somebody comes domain is the one where somebody comes domain is the one where somebody comes up with something that nobody has ever up with something that nobody has ever up with something that nobody has ever imagined, ever thought of. It's not just imagined, ever thought of. It's not just imagined, ever thought of. It's not just putting things together. It is radically putting things together. It is radically putting things together. It is radically new.

new. new. That's the tough one. We're still able That's the tough one. We're still able That's the tough one. We're still able to win in that category. There are to win in that category. There are to win in that category. There are examples where people just come up with examples where people just come up with examples where people just come up with things that where did it come from? How things that where did it come from? How things that where did it come from? How do they think of that? If you develop an do they think of that? If you develop an do they think of that? If you develop an artificial system and allow it to have a artificial system and allow it to have a artificial system and allow it to have a life, allow it to grow up, put it in an life, allow it to grow up, put it in an life, allow it to grow up, put it in an environment where it actually has environment where it actually has environment where it actually has experiences of the sort that an Isaac experiences of the sort that an Isaac experiences of the sort that an Isaac Newton had. Could it be that that system Newton had. Could it be that that system Newton had. Could it be that that system then develops to a place where it can do then develops to a place where it can do then develops to a place where it can do the things that we'd like to think are the things that we'd like to think are the things that we'd like to think are exclusively human coming up with exclusively human coming up with exclusively human coming up with something that is not previously something that is not previously something that is not previously represented in the database on which the represented in the database on which the represented in the database on which the AI system has trained and so even this AI system has trained and so even this AI system has trained and so even this third more difficult or more pristine third more difficult or more pristine third more difficult or more pristine bucket of creativity could an artificial bucket of creativity could an artificial bucket of creativity could an artificial system do that I don't think there's a system do that I don't think there's a system do that I don't think there's a barrier barrier barrier >> I've done almost 700 interviews with >> I've done almost 700 interviews with >> I've done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in some of the most interesting people in some of the most interesting people in the world and one of the things you the world and one of the things you the world and one of the things you learn which is unexpected is that learn which is unexpected is that learn which is unexpected is that vulnerability is the doorway to vulnerability is the doorway to vulnerability is the doorway to connection and after sitting here for 2 connection and after sitting here for 2 connection and after sitting here for 2 three hours with a guest I feel a deep three hours with a guest I feel a deep three hours with a guest I feel a deep sense of connection to them and as they sense of connection to them and as they sense of connection to them and as they leave what I get them to do is to write leave what I get them to do is to write leave what I get them to do is to write a question in the diary of a CEO we've a question in the diary of a CEO we've a question in the diary of a CEO we've taken all of the questions from the taken all of the questions from the taken all of the questions from the diary of a CEO we have put the question diary of a CEO we have put the question diary of a CEO we have put the question here on this card with the name of the here on this card with the name of the here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it so you can sit at person that wrote it so you can sit at person that wrote it so you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my home as I do with my fiance and my home as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people in colleagues at work and other people in colleagues at work and other people in my life. Whenever we get a minute, we

my life. Whenever we get a minute, we my life. Whenever we get a minute, we play the diio conversation cards and it play the diio conversation cards and it play the diio conversation cards and it is incredible what happens. These are is incredible what happens. These are is incredible what happens. These are great if you're in a romantic great if you're in a romantic great if you're in a romantic relationship and you want to connect relationship and you want to connect relationship and you want to connect your partner more. These are also great your partner more. These are also great your partner more. These are also great if you're in a team and you want to bond if you're in a team and you want to bond if you're in a team and you want to bond your team together. And I have to say your team together. And I have to say your team together. And I have to say they're also great for families that they're also great for families that they're also great for families that want to learn more about each other and want to learn more about each other and want to learn more about each other and that need a good excuse to spend some that need a good excuse to spend some that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world in the analog time in a digital world in the analog time in a digital world in the analog environment connecting human to human. environment connecting human to human. environment connecting human to human. It is remarkable what the right question It is remarkable what the right question It is remarkable what the right question at the right time can do. Go to the at the right time can do. Go to the at the right time can do. Go to the diary.com diary.com diary.com and you can [clears throat] get these and you can [clears throat] get these and you can [clears throat] get these conversation cards right now. There conversation cards right now. There conversation cards right now. There should be a button just down below here. should be a button just down below here. should be a button just down below here. And if it says subscribed, you're And if it says subscribed, you're And if it says subscribed, you're already subscribed. If it says already subscribed. If it says already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you're not yet. subscriber, that means you're not yet. subscriber, that means you're not yet. And if you're not subscribe, please And if you're not subscribe, please And if you're not subscribe, please could you do us a favor and hit that could you do us a favor and hit that could you do us a favor and hit that button? It helps the show more than you button? It helps the show more than you button? It helps the show more than you know. And according to the algorithm, know. And according to the algorithm, know. And according to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, you're someone that watches our show, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet hit that button. but you haven't yet hit that button. but you haven't yet hit that button. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This comes to one of our questions which This comes to one of our questions which This comes to one of our questions which is the skull there. Yes. Which is do you is the skull there. Yes. Which is do you is the skull there. Yes. Which is do you believe it will be possible to live believe it will be possible to live believe it will be possible to live forever and again I think about this in forever and again I think about this in forever and again I think about this in the context of AI where you said it will the context of AI where you said it will the context of AI where you said it will be able to understand that take us to be able to understand that take us to be able to understand that take us to the limit.

the limit. the limit. It's hard to it's hard to understand um It's hard to it's hard to understand um It's hard to it's hard to understand um how that isn't a solvable problem. In how that isn't a solvable problem. In how that isn't a solvable problem. In fact a lot of the smartest people on fact a lot of the smartest people on fact a lot of the smartest people on earth including I think Elon Musk said earth including I think Elon Musk said earth including I think Elon Musk said it recently that living another 100 200 it recently that living another 100 200 it recently that living another 100 200 300 400 500 years seems to be within the 300 400 500 years seems to be within the 300 400 500 years seems to be within the laws of physics. Yes, I think that is laws of physics. Yes, I think that is laws of physics. Yes, I think that is absolutely within the realm of absolutely within the realm of absolutely within the realm of possibility, but 500 years is so possibility, but 500 years is so possibility, but 500 years is so different from forever. Like when I hear different from forever. Like when I hear different from forever. Like when I hear forever, I'm taking it kind of forever, I'm taking it kind of forever, I'm taking it kind of literally. literally. literally. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. >> And and so if if forever doesn't mean >> And and so if if forever doesn't mean >> And and so if if forever doesn't mean 500 or a thousand, if it means never 500 or a thousand, if it means never 500 or a thousand, if it means never ceases, then I have no confidence that ceases, then I have no confidence that ceases, then I have no confidence that that kind of existence will be possible. that kind of existence will be possible. that kind of existence will be possible. >> What about 500 years? 500 years. Yeah, I >> What about 500 years? 500 years. Yeah, I >> What about 500 years? 500 years. Yeah, I would say again not in our lifetime would say again not in our lifetime would say again not in our lifetime which is sad. I would I would put that which is sad. I would I would put that which is sad. I would I would put that at at reasonably high confidence that at at reasonably high confidence that at at reasonably high confidence that you know hundreds of years will be you know hundreds of years will be you know hundreds of years will be within our ability within our ability within our ability >> if we are on this sort of exponential of >> if we are on this sort of exponential of >> if we are on this sort of exponential of intelligence intelligence intelligence >> then it you know and if 2021 >> then it you know and if 2021 >> then it you know and if 2021 >> we couldn't solve that math equation >> we couldn't solve that math equation >> we couldn't solve that math equation you're talking about but in 2026 we can you're talking about but in 2026 we can you're talking about but in 2026 we can >> and you've got trillions of dollars now >> and you've got trillions of dollars now >> and you've got trillions of dollars now pumping into these artificial pumping into these artificial pumping into these artificial intelligence systems to make them intelligence systems to make them intelligence systems to make them smarter and more powerful. It is it is smarter and more powerful. It is it is smarter and more powerful. It is it is conceivable if we're on an exponential conceivable if we're on an exponential conceivable if we're on an exponential curve here. It could be within our curve here. It could be within our curve here. It could be within our lifetimes that there is a discovery made lifetimes that there is a discovery made lifetimes that there is a discovery made about our telmirs and whatever else it about our telmirs and whatever else it about our telmirs and whatever else it might be that the guests on my show have might be that the guests on my show have might be that the guests on my show have talked about. That means we can talked about. That means we can talked about. That means we can theoretically.

theoretically. theoretically. >> But let me tell you why I'm I'm >> But let me tell you why I'm I'm >> But let me tell you why I'm I'm skeptical of that. Number one, right now skeptical of that. Number one, right now skeptical of that. Number one, right now we have a certain kind of artificial we have a certain kind of artificial we have a certain kind of artificial intelligence. It's basically large intelligence. It's basically large intelligence. It's basically large language models. And that's a certain language models. And that's a certain language models. And that's a certain paradigm where the system is trained on paradigm where the system is trained on paradigm where the system is trained on an enormous number of tokens, an an enormous number of tokens, an an enormous number of tokens, an enormous number of words, you know, enormous number of words, you know, enormous number of words, you know, basically the entire internet. And based basically the entire internet. And based basically the entire internet. And based upon the statistics and the statistics upon the statistics and the statistics upon the statistics and the statistics of the statistics of the statistics of of the statistics of the statistics of of the statistics of the statistics of how the words are arranged, the system how the words are arranged, the system how the words are arranged, the system is able to provide answers to questions is able to provide answers to questions is able to provide answers to questions that are coherent and and and insightful that are coherent and and and insightful that are coherent and and and insightful and so forth. there isn't necessarily an and so forth. there isn't necessarily an and so forth. there isn't necessarily an unlimited capacity of that kind of unlimited capacity of that kind of unlimited capacity of that kind of artificial intelligence to continue to artificial intelligence to continue to artificial intelligence to continue to improve, right? And so it's not obvious improve, right? And so it's not obvious improve, right? And so it's not obvious to me that it's just a matter of pumping to me that it's just a matter of pumping to me that it's just a matter of pumping billions and billions of dollars, billions and billions of dollars, billions and billions of dollars, building ever larger data center, building ever larger data center, building ever larger data center, putting them in space, wherever you're putting them in space, wherever you're putting them in space, wherever you're going to do, and the more money you put going to do, and the more money you put going to do, and the more money you put in and the more data you have and the in and the more data you have and the in and the more data you have and the more computer power you have, the better more computer power you have, the better more computer power you have, the better it's going to be. That's not obvious to it's going to be. That's not obvious to it's going to be. That's not obvious to me that that will continue up that me that that will continue up that me that that will continue up that exponential curve. And that's why I'm exponential curve. And that's why I'm exponential curve. And that's why I'm hesitant to say in our lifetime. It may hesitant to say in our lifetime. It may hesitant to say in our lifetime. It may take a number of lifetimes to develop take a number of lifetimes to develop take a number of lifetimes to develop the kind of artificial intelligence the kind of artificial intelligence the kind of artificial intelligence necessary to advance the kinds of necessary to advance the kinds of necessary to advance the kinds of scientific problems that you're talking scientific problems that you're talking scientific problems that you're talking about. But look, I'd be thrilled if it's about. But look, I'd be thrilled if it's about. But look, I'd be thrilled if it's our lifetime. I'd be thrilled if I'm our lifetime. I'd be thrilled if I'm our lifetime. I'd be thrilled if I'm wrong and these systems are up to the wrong and these systems are up to the wrong and these systems are up to the task.

task. task. >> One of the terms that has emerged in the >> One of the terms that has emerged in the >> One of the terms that has emerged in the world of AI recently um is this term world of AI recently um is this term world of AI recently um is this term recursive self-improvement. Recursive recursive self-improvement. Recursive recursive self-improvement. Recursive self-improvement is the concept where an self-improvement is the concept where an self-improvement is the concept where an AI becomes intelligent enough to write AI becomes intelligent enough to write AI becomes intelligent enough to write its own software, design its own its own software, design its own its own software, design its own hardware, or train its own successes hardware, or train its own successes hardware, or train its own successes without human intervention. And once without human intervention. And once without human intervention. And once this loop begins, the upgraded AI uses this loop begins, the upgraded AI uses this loop begins, the upgraded AI uses its superior intelligence to build an its superior intelligence to build an its superior intelligence to build an even smarter version of itself, which even smarter version of itself, which even smarter version of itself, which then builds an even smarter version and then builds an even smarter version and then builds an even smarter version and so on. Because computer systems operate so on. Because computer systems operate so on. Because computer systems operate in seconds rather than human in seconds rather than human in seconds rather than human evolutionary time scales, this feedback evolutionary time scales, this feedback evolutionary time scales, this feedback loop could trigger an exponential quote loop could trigger an exponential quote loop could trigger an exponential quote intelligence explosion, rapidly taking intelligence explosion, rapidly taking intelligence explosion, rapidly taking AI from human level capability to super AI from human level capability to super AI from human level capability to super intelligence within days or hours. intelligence within days or hours. intelligence within days or hours. >> And the big AI leaders, Dario at um >> And the big AI leaders, Dario at um >> And the big AI leaders, Dario at um Enthropic has recently published an Enthropic has recently published an Enthropic has recently published an article warning that we're edging closer article warning that we're edging closer article warning that we're edging closer to that. Sam Alman has said the same. to that. Sam Alman has said the same. to that. Sam Alman has said the same. Dennis has said the same. Um Elon has Dennis has said the same. Um Elon has Dennis has said the same. Um Elon has talked about this as well recently and talked about this as well recently and talked about this as well recently and their timelines for this explosion in their timelines for this explosion in their timelines for this explosion in intelligence because of the AI being intelligence because of the AI being intelligence because of the AI being able to train themselves ranges from 2 able to train themselves ranges from 2 able to train themselves ranges from 2 years to 5 years placing them between years to 5 years placing them between years to 5 years placing them between 2026 and 2029. And Dario who's the CEO 2026 and 2029. And Dario who's the CEO 2026 and 2029. And Dario who's the CEO of the biggest model called Anthropic of the biggest model called Anthropic of the biggest model called Anthropic Claude um has stated that AI systems Claude um has stated that AI systems Claude um has stated that AI systems outperforming most humans across all outperforming most humans across all outperforming most humans across all human tasks including software human tasks including software human tasks including software engineering could arrive within two to engineering could arrive within two to engineering could arrive within two to three years and anthropic has been three years and anthropic has been three years and anthropic has been warning that full recursive warning that full recursive warning that full recursive self-improvement could [snorts] arrive self-improvement could [snorts] arrive self-improvement could [snorts] arrive by 2027 to 2028.

by 2027 to 2028. by 2027 to 2028. Deis at Google is citing 2029 as a real Deis at Google is citing 2029 as a real Deis at Google is citing 2029 as a real possibility in Saltman says this decade. possibility in Saltman says this decade. possibility in Saltman says this decade. I mean Brian Johnson tweeted yesterday, I mean Brian Johnson tweeted yesterday, I mean Brian Johnson tweeted yesterday, "Pace yourself as if you'll live to 500 "Pace yourself as if you'll live to 500 "Pace yourself as if you'll live to 500 because you may [laughter] because you because you may [laughter] because you because you may [laughter] because you may." Look, I'm all for the possibility may." Look, I'm all for the possibility may." Look, I'm all for the possibility that these systems will take off in a that these systems will take off in a that these systems will take off in a way that hopefully we are way that hopefully we are way that hopefully we are >> uh hopefully working in a way that >> uh hopefully working in a way that >> uh hopefully working in a way that allows the kinds of future that you're allows the kinds of future that you're allows the kinds of future that you're envisioning that we are here and envisioning that we are here and envisioning that we are here and >> would it be a good thing? >> would it be a good thing? >> would it be a good thing? >> Well, you know, uh it would be >> Well, you know, uh it would be >> Well, you know, uh it would be seductive. I mean, if someone was to seductive. I mean, if someone was to seductive. I mean, if someone was to present you with the opportunity to live present you with the opportunity to live present you with the opportunity to live for to 500 years, I think many people for to 500 years, I think many people for to 500 years, I think many people would opt in for that. It's very hard to would opt in for that. It's very hard to would opt in for that. It's very hard to say h you know 100 years is enough and I say h you know 100 years is enough and I say h you know 100 years is enough and I just you know there are people who do just you know there are people who do just you know there are people who do that who will look at the world and say that who will look at the world and say that who will look at the world and say it's enough you know I'm I'm I'm done it's enough you know I'm I'm I'm done it's enough you know I'm I'm I'm done but back to the prognostications that but back to the prognostications that but back to the prognostications that are are being made. Look it's absolutely are are being made. Look it's absolutely are are being made. Look it's absolutely the case that the AIs will self-improve the case that the AIs will self-improve the case that the AIs will self-improve through the very process that got us through the very process that got us through the very process that got us here but on a time scale that's tiny here but on a time scale that's tiny here but on a time scale that's tiny compared to the time scale that got us compared to the time scale that got us compared to the time scale that got us here. I'm skeptical that by 2029 this here. I'm skeptical that by 2029 this here. I'm skeptical that by 2029 this will really be the case.

will really be the case. will really be the case. Let's see, right? I mean this is a very Let's see, right? I mean this is a very Let's see, right? I mean this is a very short term, right? So we will know in a short term, right? So we will know in a short term, right? So we will know in a few years whether this is the case. few years whether this is the case. few years whether this is the case. >> How many years has it taken living >> How many years has it taken living >> How many years has it taken living organisms to get from a single cell organisms to get from a single cell organisms to get from a single cell microbe or whatever to understanding microbe or whatever to understanding microbe or whatever to understanding string theory? string theory? string theory? >> Yeah. So you know the first life on our >> Yeah. So you know the first life on our >> Yeah. So you know the first life on our planet formed roughly within the first planet formed roughly within the first planet formed roughly within the first billion years. You know, people debate billion years. You know, people debate billion years. You know, people debate exactly where that is. And you know, exactly where that is. And you know, exactly where that is. And you know, we're now roughly, call it, you know, 5 we're now roughly, call it, you know, 5 we're now roughly, call it, you know, 5 billion years in. So, call it roughly 4 billion years in. So, call it roughly 4 billion years in. So, call it roughly 4 billion years. billion years. billion years. >> And a computer going from zero to being >> And a computer going from zero to being >> And a computer going from zero to being smarter than every human on earth has smarter than every human on earth has smarter than every human on earth has taken. taken. taken. >> Yeah. Well, it depends where you where >> Yeah. Well, it depends where you where >> Yeah. Well, it depends where you where you start the gut. True, right? Because you start the gut. True, right? Because you start the gut. True, right? Because again, if you think about these systems again, if you think about these systems again, if you think about these systems as we they needed us as we they needed us as we they needed us >> without the internet and all the data, >> without the internet and all the data, >> without the internet and all the data, what would they have trained on? at what would they have trained on? at what would they have trained on? at least this version of artificial least this version of artificial least this version of artificial intelligence. If it's the computer, the intelligence. If it's the computer, the intelligence. If it's the computer, the artificial system that's self-tinkering, artificial system that's self-tinkering, artificial system that's self-tinkering, >> then yeah, there's this feedback that >> then yeah, there's this feedback that >> then yeah, there's this feedback that will yield an exponential growth. And if will yield an exponential growth. And if will yield an exponential growth. And if there's no barrier and there may be, there's no barrier and there may be, there's no barrier and there may be, right, there may be a barrier to the right, there may be a barrier to the right, there may be a barrier to the kind of artificial intelligence systems kind of artificial intelligence systems kind of artificial intelligence systems that we have. We may allow it to that we have. We may allow it to that we have. We may allow it to iterate, it iterates, and it sure it iterate, it iterates, and it sure it iterate, it iterates, and it sure it improves, but it doesn't improve like improves, but it doesn't improve like improves, but it doesn't improve like this. It improves like this. It could this. It improves like this. It could this. It improves like this. It could asmtote. It could approach a maximal asmtote. It could approach a maximal asmtote. It could approach a maximal intelligence compatible with this intelligence compatible with this intelligence compatible with this version of the artificial system. And so version of the artificial system. And so version of the artificial system. And so it won't skyrocket. It could do this.

it won't skyrocket. It could do this. it won't skyrocket. It could do this. And we don't know the answer. Which And we don't know the answer. Which And we don't know the answer. Which curve is the right one? curve is the right one? curve is the right one? >> Give me a rebuttal to that. >> Give me a rebuttal to that. >> Give me a rebuttal to that. >> A rebuttal to it being the exponential >> A rebuttal to it being the exponential >> A rebuttal to it being the exponential curve. curve. curve. >> Give me a rebuttal. >> Give me a rebuttal. >> Give me a rebuttal. >> Oh, you're asking the system. >> Oh, you're asking the system. >> Oh, you're asking the system. >> That was uh Brian saying one of that. >> That was uh Brian saying one of that. >> That was uh Brian saying one of that. Give me a rebuttal to that. Give me a rebuttal to that. Give me a rebuttal to that. The rebuttal to the idea of an asimtote The rebuttal to the idea of an asimtote The rebuttal to the idea of an asimtote is that AI isn't just improving one is that AI isn't just improving one is that AI isn't just improving one thing. It's exploring an astronomically thing. It's exploring an astronomically thing. It's exploring an astronomically vast solution space of algorithms, data, vast solution space of algorithms, data, vast solution space of algorithms, data, and hardware configurations that humans and hardware configurations that humans and hardware configurations that humans can't even conceive of. Furthermore, can't even conceive of. Furthermore, can't even conceive of. Furthermore, each marginal gain in intelligence could each marginal gain in intelligence could each marginal gain in intelligence could instantly be reinvested into solving the instantly be reinvested into solving the instantly be reinvested into solving the very bottlenecks that might cause a very bottlenecks that might cause a very bottlenecks that might cause a slowdown, effectively breaking through slowdown, effectively breaking through slowdown, effectively breaking through the wall rather than hitting it. Maybe. the wall rather than hitting it. Maybe. the wall rather than hitting it. Maybe. But if all of these incremental But if all of these incremental But if all of these incremental improvements improvements improvements ultimately are limited by the kind of ultimately are limited by the kind of ultimately are limited by the kind of artificial intelligence that we are artificial intelligence that we are artificial intelligence that we are working within, then none of that will working within, then none of that will working within, then none of that will necessarily be able to break through. necessarily be able to break through. necessarily be able to break through. And I think this is something that we're And I think this is something that we're And I think this is something that we're just going to have to see over time.

just going to have to see over time. just going to have to see over time. Fight back. That points to a crucial Fight back. That points to a crucial Fight back. That points to a crucial distinction about whether the current distinction about whether the current distinction about whether the current paradigm has a hard limit. While it's paradigm has a hard limit. While it's paradigm has a hard limit. While it's possible there's an invisible ceiling, possible there's an invisible ceiling, possible there's an invisible ceiling, it's also true that we haven't yet it's also true that we haven't yet it's also true that we haven't yet mapped out where that boundary lies. mapped out where that boundary lies. mapped out where that boundary lies. Meaning any predictions about a plateau Meaning any predictions about a plateau Meaning any predictions about a plateau remain speculative for now. remain speculative for now. remain speculative for now. >> Yes. And all I'm saying is there is a >> Yes. And all I'm saying is there is a >> Yes. And all I'm saying is there is a possible limiting ceiling exactly as you possible limiting ceiling exactly as you possible limiting ceiling exactly as you just admitted. just admitted. just admitted. >> Rebuttle that as well. >> Rebuttle that as well. >> Rebuttle that as well. >> The counter to that is the idea that an >> The counter to that is the idea that an >> The counter to that is the idea that an intelligent system could innovate beyond intelligent system could innovate beyond intelligent system could innovate beyond the current framework by recursively the current framework by recursively the current framework by recursively redesigning its own architecture. By redesigning its own architecture. By redesigning its own architecture. By altering its fundamental rules, it might altering its fundamental rules, it might altering its fundamental rules, it might not just reach the ceiling, but raise it not just reach the ceiling, but raise it not just reach the ceiling, but raise it altogether or bypass it into an entirely altogether or bypass it into an entirely altogether or bypass it into an entirely new domain of capability. new domain of capability. new domain of capability. But you do agree that the system that But you do agree that the system that But you do agree that the system that we're starting with may be we're starting with may be we're starting with may be self-limiting. I'm simply positing that self-limiting. I'm simply positing that self-limiting. I'm simply positing that as a logical possibility and therefore as a logical possibility and therefore as a logical possibility and therefore will have that natural inbuilt ceiling. will have that natural inbuilt ceiling. will have that natural inbuilt ceiling. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Okay, stop. I'm done. [laughter] Isn't that crazy?

Isn't that crazy? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's totally insane. [laughter] >> It's totally insane. [laughter] >> It's totally insane. [laughter] >> Cuz even 5 years ago, we never would >> Cuz even 5 years ago, we never would >> Cuz even 5 years ago, we never would have thought that was possible. It would have thought that was possible. It would have thought that was possible. It would have been this. I doubt it. have been this. I doubt it. have been this. I doubt it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally crazy. And and >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally crazy. And and >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally crazy. And and again, you know, just the flip side, again, you know, just the flip side, again, you know, just the flip side, even though I'm saying that there may be even though I'm saying that there may be even though I'm saying that there may be a ceiling, I also would say there may a ceiling, I also would say there may a ceiling, I also would say there may not be a ceiling. And again, it's both not be a ceiling. And again, it's both not be a ceiling. And again, it's both exciting and frightening at the same exciting and frightening at the same exciting and frightening at the same time because it's not obvious that we time because it's not obvious that we time because it's not obvious that we would be prepared for that. You know would be prepared for that. You know would be prepared for that. You know >> why? Why frightening? What would that >> why? Why frightening? What would that >> why? Why frightening? What would that mean? mean? mean? >> Well, you know, they're the usual >> Well, you know, they're the usual >> Well, you know, they're the usual doomsday scenarios that many people have doomsday scenarios that many people have doomsday scenarios that many people have articulated, articulated, articulated, you know, from these systems just having you know, from these systems just having you know, from these systems just having a single-minded focus on some particular a single-minded focus on some particular a single-minded focus on some particular outcome that may not ultimately involve outcome that may not ultimately involve outcome that may not ultimately involve us or that these systems may have a us or that these systems may have a us or that these systems may have a self-preservation instinct that prevents self-preservation instinct that prevents self-preservation instinct that prevents us from stopping them if they head in a us from stopping them if they head in a us from stopping them if they head in a direction that we're not happy with. I direction that we're not happy with. I direction that we're not happy with. I mean, Yan Makun, who's a, you know, he's mean, Yan Makun, who's a, you know, he's mean, Yan Makun, who's a, you know, he's a a a >> he's one of the godfathers of AI. >> he's one of the godfathers of AI. >> he's one of the godfathers of AI. >> Yeah. Yeah. His view is much more of the >> Yeah. Yeah. His view is much more of the >> Yeah. Yeah. His view is much more of the sort just pull the plug. If something's sort just pull the plug. If something's sort just pull the plug. If something's going in the wrong direction, just pull going in the wrong direction, just pull going in the wrong direction, just pull the plug. I mean, just stop the AI the plug. I mean, just stop the AI the plug. I mean, just stop the AI system. And it's not obvious to me and I system. And it's not obvious to me and I system. And it's not obvious to me and I guess to many of the other leaders that guess to many of the other leaders that guess to many of the other leaders that if these systems advance sufficiently if these systems advance sufficiently if these systems advance sufficiently far that they won't be able to stop you far that they won't be able to stop you far that they won't be able to stop you from pulling the plug. The other thing I from pulling the plug. The other thing I from pulling the plug. The other thing I would say and again this is not original would say and again this is not original would say and again this is not original many people have worried about this. You many people have worried about this. You many people have worried about this. You rattled off the names of the leaders of rattled off the names of the leaders of rattled off the names of the leaders of the current companies that are leading

the current companies that are leading the current companies that are leading the charge in AI. There only are a the charge in AI. There only are a the charge in AI. There only are a handful of companies and a handful of handful of companies and a handful of handful of companies and a handful of people. Putting that kind of power in people. Putting that kind of power in people. Putting that kind of power in such a small number of hands has such a small number of hands has such a small number of hands has historically not with AI but with other historically not with AI but with other historically not with AI but with other power structures power structures power structures not always turned out well you know and not always turned out well you know and not always turned out well you know and so yes I think there is a chance that so yes I think there is a chance that so yes I think there is a chance that there's an instability that the power of there's an instability that the power of there's an instability that the power of these kind of artificial systems may these kind of artificial systems may these kind of artificial systems may generate generate generate >> so demis and I use demis because demis >> so demis and I use demis because demis >> so demis and I use demis because demis is running the biggest AI company said is running the biggest AI company said is running the biggest AI company said that since the design of machines is one that since the design of machines is one that since the design of machines is one of the these intellectual activities an of the these intellectual activities an of the these intellectual activities an ultra intelligent machine could design ultra intelligent machine could design ultra intelligent machine could design even better machines. If the exponential even better machines. If the exponential even better machines. If the exponential continues, which is not certain, but now continues, which is not certain, but now continues, which is not certain, but now has a decade long track record has a decade long track record has a decade long track record supporting it, then it cannot possibly supporting it, then it cannot possibly supporting it, then it cannot possibly be more than a few years before AI is be more than a few years before AI is be more than a few years before AI is better than humans at essentially better than humans at essentially better than humans at essentially everything. The combination of everything. The combination of everything. The combination of intelligence, agency, and intelligence, agency, and intelligence, agency, and unpredictability is a recipe for unpredictability is a recipe for unpredictability is a recipe for existential danger. Not because AI is existential danger. Not because AI is existential danger. Not because AI is evil, but because it's complex in ways evil, but because it's complex in ways evil, but because it's complex in ways we don't fully understand yet. If a we don't fully understand yet. If a we don't fully understand yet. If a system can improve faster than humans system can improve faster than humans system can improve faster than humans can evaluate those improvements, the can evaluate those improvements, the can evaluate those improvements, the normal safety feedback loop breaks down.

normal safety feedback loop breaks down. normal safety feedback loop breaks down. You cannot catch problems before they You cannot catch problems before they You cannot catch problems before they compound. compound. compound. >> He's absolutely right. You know, the the >> He's absolutely right. You know, the the >> He's absolutely right. You know, the the problem with exponentials problem with exponentials problem with exponentials is that they grow so quickly that by the is that they grow so quickly that by the is that they grow so quickly that by the time you see them, it's too late to do time you see them, it's too late to do time you see them, it's too late to do anything about it. I mean, what happens anything about it. I mean, what happens anything about it. I mean, what happens with a pandemic? With a pandemic, you with a pandemic? With a pandemic, you with a pandemic? With a pandemic, you know, it starts off slow. Nobody cares. know, it starts off slow. Nobody cares. know, it starts off slow. Nobody cares. Nobody's paying it. It's a story in the Nobody's paying it. It's a story in the Nobody's paying it. It's a story in the news. A story in the news starts. By the news. A story in the news starts. By the news. A story in the news starts. By the time it becomes a real story, the time it becomes a real story, the time it becomes a real story, the pandemic is at the part of the pandemic is at the part of the pandemic is at the part of the exponential curve that makes it very exponential curve that makes it very exponential curve that makes it very difficult to address the problem itself. difficult to address the problem itself. difficult to address the problem itself. And the same thing, you know, could And the same thing, you know, could And the same thing, you know, could easily happen here that the increase in easily happen here that the increase in easily happen here that the increase in intelligence, and I'm glad Demis phrase intelligence, and I'm glad Demis phrase intelligence, and I'm glad Demis phrase that way. It may not be that it's that way. It may not be that it's that way. It may not be that it's intrinsically evil to have this kind of intrinsically evil to have this kind of intrinsically evil to have this kind of powerful intelligence. It just may act powerful intelligence. It just may act powerful intelligence. It just may act in ways that are so alien to us, so in ways that are so alien to us, so in ways that are so alien to us, so foreign to us, so unexpected to us that foreign to us, so unexpected to us that foreign to us, so unexpected to us that we don't know how to deal with it. And we don't know how to deal with it. And we don't know how to deal with it. And moreover, it may not necessarily be moreover, it may not necessarily be moreover, it may not necessarily be beneficial to our existence. Now, as I beneficial to our existence. Now, as I beneficial to our existence. Now, as I said before, I'm perhaps a minority when said before, I'm perhaps a minority when said before, I'm perhaps a minority when I say I can imagine that we work with I say I can imagine that we work with I say I can imagine that we work with the AI and co-develop into something the AI and co-develop into something the AI and co-develop into something that we can't even predict today. That that we can't even predict today. That that we can't even predict today. That seems to me a real possibility seems to me a real possibility seems to me a real possibility >> and that's also the temptation.

>> and that's also the temptation. >> and that's also the temptation. >> Yeah. You know, I have a friend Michael >> Yeah. You know, I have a friend Michael >> Yeah. You know, I have a friend Michael Douglas who's a brilliant physicist and Douglas who's a brilliant physicist and Douglas who's a brilliant physicist and he said to me, he said to me, he said to me, "We physicists, we should choose the "We physicists, we should choose the "We physicists, we should choose the final problems that we work on because final problems that we work on because final problems that we work on because within a few years we'll be out of within a few years we'll be out of within a few years we'll be out of business because the AI systems will business because the AI systems will business because the AI systems will just be doing it all." And that's both just be doing it all." And that's both just be doing it all." And that's both exciting and terrifying because as a exciting and terrifying because as a exciting and terrifying because as a physicist, you know, your your lifeblood physicist, you know, your your lifeblood physicist, you know, your your lifeblood is looking out at the world and finding is looking out at the world and finding is looking out at the world and finding puzzles and trying to find the puzzles and trying to find the puzzles and trying to find the explanations for them. And if you can explanations for them. And if you can explanations for them. And if you can just put it into an AI system and it just put it into an AI system and it just put it into an AI system and it generates the answer, yeah, there can be generates the answer, yeah, there can be generates the answer, yeah, there can be a certain existential angst about what a certain existential angst about what a certain existential angst about what your role is at that point. But it's your role is at that point. But it's your role is at that point. But it's also exciting because maybe we will get also exciting because maybe we will get also exciting because maybe we will get answers to questions that we thought we answers to questions that we thought we answers to questions that we thought we would never get in our lifetime. would never get in our lifetime. would never get in our lifetime. >> Did you say you're friends with Yan Lun? >> Did you say you're friends with Yan Lun? >> Did you say you're friends with Yan Lun? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And did you say he thinks we should just >> And did you say he thinks we should just >> And did you say he thinks we should just pull the plug? pull the plug? pull the plug? >> When you confront Yan and say, "Dude, >> When you confront Yan and say, "Dude, >> When you confront Yan and say, "Dude, aren't you worried about what's going to aren't you worried about what's going to aren't you worried about what's going to happen with this?" He's like, "Ah, don't happen with this?" He's like, "Ah, don't happen with this?" He's like, "Ah, don't worry. Just pull the plug if there's a worry. Just pull the plug if there's a worry. Just pull the plug if there's a problem."

problem." problem." >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Yeah. His view is the difference between >> Yeah. His view is the difference between >> Yeah. His view is the difference between the AI systems that we have today and the AI systems that we have today and the AI systems that we have today and the AI systems that we need for tomorrow the AI systems that we need for tomorrow the AI systems that we need for tomorrow if you really want this to continue is if you really want this to continue is if you really want this to continue is they can't just be probabilities and they can't just be probabilities and they can't just be probabilities and statistics based on words. The AI statistics based on words. The AI statistics based on words. The AI systems need to have some inner model of systems need to have some inner model of systems need to have some inner model of the world as we do, right? I mean, if I the world as we do, right? I mean, if I the world as we do, right? I mean, if I take this cup here and I push it, I have take this cup here and I push it, I have take this cup here and I push it, I have an inner model of what it would take to an inner model of what it would take to an inner model of what it would take to move it without spilling. And I have an move it without spilling. And I have an move it without spilling. And I have an inner model of what it would take to inner model of what it would take to inner model of what it would take to spill it. I want to actually do it spill it. I want to actually do it spill it. I want to actually do it because it would make a mess. That's not because it would make a mess. That's not because it would make a mess. That's not just statistics and probabilities of just statistics and probabilities of just statistics and probabilities of words. That's a model of how reality words. That's a model of how reality words. That's a model of how reality functions. That's what he and many functions. That's what he and many functions. That's what he and many others have been developing. a world others have been developing. a world others have been developing. a world model together with the probabilities of model together with the probabilities of model together with the probabilities of large language model or some weird large language model or some weird large language model or some weird hybrid or something else we haven't hybrid or something else we haven't hybrid or something else we haven't thought of that may be the next phase of thought of that may be the next phase of thought of that may be the next phase of artificial intelligence but of course artificial intelligence but of course artificial intelligence but of course Demis and others might say the LLMs Demis and others might say the LLMs Demis and others might say the LLMs through self-improvement through self-improvement through self-improvement maybe they would develop that world maybe they would develop that world maybe they would develop that world maybe they would on their own get to the maybe they would on their own get to the maybe they would on their own get to the place that you would think that we place that you would think that we place that you would think that we humans would need to inject something humans would need to inject something humans would need to inject something extra who knows extra who knows extra who knows >> cuz if I like if I get this glass here.

>> cuz if I like if I get this glass here. >> cuz if I like if I get this glass here. Say I say to the AI, "What happens to Say I say to the AI, "What happens to Say I say to the AI, "What happens to this if I push it in that direction?" >> If you push that mug, it'll slide across >> If you push that mug, it'll slide across the table. And depending on how hard you the table. And depending on how hard you the table. And depending on how hard you push, it could knock into the plate or push, it could knock into the plate or push, it could knock into the plate or slide right off the edge. Now, again, it slide right off the edge. Now, again, it slide right off the edge. Now, again, it simply is relying upon the fact that simply is relying upon the fact that simply is relying upon the fact that it's read everything on the internet. it's read everything on the internet. it's read everything on the internet. And there are physics textbooks. There And there are physics textbooks. There And there are physics textbooks. There are conversations about things falling are conversations about things falling are conversations about things falling and it bases its response by drawing on and it bases its response by drawing on and it bases its response by drawing on those collections of words. those collections of words. those collections of words. >> Isn't that what I'm doing as well? >> Isn't that what I'm doing as well? >> Isn't that what I'm doing as well? >> I don't know what is how does human >> I don't know what is how does human >> I don't know what is how does human intelligence work? Certainly intelligence work? Certainly intelligence work? Certainly evolutionary psychologists have asked evolutionary psychologists have asked evolutionary psychologists have asked the following question. Are we like a the following question. Are we like a the following question. Are we like a blank slate blank slate blank slate >> and we simply learn about the world >> and we simply learn about the world >> and we simply learn about the world people tell us we experience and so people tell us we experience and so people tell us we experience and so forth or is there something more innate? forth or is there something more innate? forth or is there something more innate? And I think there is strong evidence And I think there is strong evidence And I think there is strong evidence that we have a kind of innate physical that we have a kind of innate physical that we have a kind of innate physical intuition about the world that's really intuition about the world that's really intuition about the world that's really been passed down through the been passed down through the been passed down through the generations. Not that you can pass down generations. Not that you can pass down generations. Not that you can pass down F= MA or Newton's laws to your children F= MA or Newton's laws to your children F= MA or Newton's laws to your children because you learned. Of course, that's because you learned. Of course, that's because you learned. Of course, that's silly. But there is an evolutionary silly. But there is an evolutionary silly. But there is an evolutionary advantage to being able to quickly advantage to being able to quickly advantage to being able to quickly assess the world and figure out how to assess the world and figure out how to assess the world and figure out how to act. Right? Those of our forebears who act. Right? Those of our forebears who act. Right? Those of our forebears who could not throw the rock or the spear, could not throw the rock or the spear, could not throw the rock or the spear, they're the ones who didn't get the next they're the ones who didn't get the next they're the ones who didn't get the next meal. Those of our forebears that had a meal. Those of our forebears that had a meal. Those of our forebears that had a slightly better predilction slightly better predilction slightly better predilction for ingesting experience and codifying for ingesting experience and codifying for ingesting experience and codifying it in some understanding of how the

it in some understanding of how the it in some understanding of how the world actually works. They're the ones world actually works. They're the ones world actually works. They're the ones that survived. And so they can pass down that survived. And so they can pass down that survived. And so they can pass down that predilction. And I do think that that predilction. And I do think that that predilction. And I do think that that's part of how we assess the world. that's part of how we assess the world. that's part of how we assess the world. I don't think we're complete blank I don't think we're complete blank I don't think we're complete blank slates in that sense. would make sense. slates in that sense. would make sense. slates in that sense. would make sense. Babies are born with some kind of Babies are born with some kind of Babies are born with some kind of intelligence. They grip fingers. But but intelligence. They grip fingers. But but intelligence. They grip fingers. But but but that is in part because the the but that is in part because the the but that is in part because the the parent has passed that on and so an AI parent has passed that on and so an AI parent has passed that on and so an AI could pass could pass could pass >> Yes, that's right. When you talk about >> Yes, that's right. When you talk about >> Yes, that's right. When you talk about the AI systems themselves being the AI systems themselves being the AI systems themselves being evolutionary, yeah, they certainly do evolutionary, yeah, they certainly do evolutionary, yeah, they certainly do pass down the achievements of generation pass down the achievements of generation pass down the achievements of generation N to generation N plus one. That is N to generation N plus one. That is N to generation N plus one. That is certainly part of this iterative process certainly part of this iterative process certainly part of this iterative process without a doubt. without a doubt. without a doubt. >> What a weird world we're living in. >> What a weird world we're living in. >> What a weird world we're living in. >> Yeah, I'm so crazy. Some sometimes I >> Yeah, I'm so crazy. Some sometimes I >> Yeah, I'm so crazy. Some sometimes I think but I imagine through history think but I imagine through history think but I imagine through history everyone's thought like god what a time everyone's thought like god what a time everyone's thought like god what a time to be alive. to be alive. to be alive. >> Yeah we are living through a rapid >> Yeah we are living through a rapid >> Yeah we are living through a rapid change that is a little unprecedented. change that is a little unprecedented. change that is a little unprecedented. >> How do you think one should contend with >> How do you think one should contend with >> How do you think one should contend with all of this cuz people are concerned all of this cuz people are concerned all of this cuz people are concerned change is not something that we love at change is not something that we love at change is not something that we love at this rate. this rate. this rate. >> You know again I think people will cope >> You know again I think people will cope >> You know again I think people will cope in many different ways. You know if you in many different ways. You know if you in many different ways. You know if you can stay open and excited to the can stay open and excited to the can stay open and excited to the possibilities possibilities possibilities and have the flexibility of change. Oh, and have the flexibility of change. Oh, and have the flexibility of change. Oh, one of the things I've been thinking a one of the things I've been thinking a one of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately is Elon's out there lot about lately is Elon's out there lot about lately is Elon's out there saying that we're heading to an age of saying that we're heading to an age of saying that we're heading to an age of abundance. He's kind of shifted his abundance. He's kind of shifted his abundance. He's kind of shifted his perspective from this dumerism to age of perspective from this dumerism to age of perspective from this dumerism to age of abundance. And then part of his abundance. And then part of his abundance. And then part of his narrative there is we won't need money narrative there is we won't need money narrative there is we won't need money because when you've got robots and AI because when you've got robots and AI because when you've got robots and AI and more energy, then we're not going to and more energy, then we're not going to and more energy, then we're not going to have to worry about food and these kinds have to worry about food and these kinds have to worry about food and these kinds of things or bills, whatever. But still, of things or bills, whatever. But still, of things or bills, whatever. But still, humans pursue scarcity.

humans pursue scarcity. humans pursue scarcity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We we pursue status. We want, you know, >> We we pursue status. We want, you know, >> We we pursue status. We want, you know, humans want the home on the end of Miami humans want the home on the end of Miami humans want the home on the end of Miami Beach with the best plot. And there's Beach with the best plot. And there's Beach with the best plot. And there's those are there's finite numbers of those are there's finite numbers of those are there's finite numbers of these things that a lot of humans these things that a lot of humans these things that a lot of humans pursue. Even like academic discovery, pursue. Even like academic discovery, pursue. Even like academic discovery, Nobel prizes, there's a finite number of Nobel prizes, there's a finite number of Nobel prizes, there's a finite number of them and we pursue them. So there's one them and we pursue them. So there's one them and we pursue them. So there's one would argue that there's still going to would argue that there's still going to would argue that there's still going to be a a competition. Uh humans are still be a a competition. Uh humans are still be a a competition. Uh humans are still going to strive for things, right? going to strive for things, right? going to strive for things, right? >> Why do we do that? >> Why do we do that? >> Why do we do that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. And part of the reason is >> Right. And part of the reason is >> Right. And part of the reason is if you know that you're going to die, if if you know that you're going to die, if if you know that you're going to die, if you know that your life is finite, there you know that your life is finite, there you know that your life is finite, there can be an urge to make your mark, to do can be an urge to make your mark, to do can be an urge to make your mark, to do something special, to be out of the something special, to be out of the something special, to be out of the ordinary so that in some symbolic way ordinary so that in some symbolic way ordinary so that in some symbolic way you continue to exist even after you are you continue to exist even after you are you continue to exist even after you are gone, right? I mean, you know, Elon gone, right? I mean, you know, Elon gone, right? I mean, you know, Elon Musk, yeah, after he's gone, people are Musk, yeah, after he's gone, people are Musk, yeah, after he's gone, people are going to talk about him for a long, long going to talk about him for a long, long going to talk about him for a long, long time, right? because he had a radical time, right? because he had a radical time, right? because he had a radical impact and who knows where it will go. impact and who knows where it will go. impact and who knows where it will go. He's got many productive years still He's got many productive years still He's got many productive years still left. And so, yes, there is this natural left. And so, yes, there is this natural left. And so, yes, there is this natural tendency to seek something that will tendency to seek something that will tendency to seek something that will allow you to symbolically persist after allow you to symbolically persist after allow you to symbolically persist after you are gone. Now, if we all realize you are gone. Now, if we all realize you are gone. Now, if we all realize that that is part of human motivation, that that is part of human motivation, that that is part of human motivation, maybe as a species we could begin to maybe as a species we could begin to maybe as a species we could begin to shift, right? It isn't the case that we shift, right? It isn't the case that we shift, right? It isn't the case that we have to always be the way we have been have to always be the way we have been have to always be the way we have been historically. That's the way we have historically. That's the way we have historically. That's the way we have been. Kings want to be kings in part

been. Kings want to be kings in part been. Kings want to be kings in part because they have the power. If they because they have the power. If they because they have the power. If they have the power, they have the hegemony. have the power, they have the hegemony. have the power, they have the hegemony. They in a sense exist even when they are They in a sense exist even when they are They in a sense exist even when they are gone. Their progeny. Why do we have gone. Their progeny. Why do we have gone. Their progeny. Why do we have descent of monarchies? Because the king descent of monarchies? Because the king descent of monarchies? Because the king continues to exist through the king's continues to exist through the king's continues to exist through the king's progeny. And so, yeah, could we perhaps progeny. And so, yeah, could we perhaps progeny. And so, yeah, could we perhaps get to a place where we shed that way of get to a place where we shed that way of get to a place where we shed that way of being because we're in a world of being because we're in a world of being because we're in a world of abundance where the whole notion of abundance where the whole notion of abundance where the whole notion of scarcity is artificial and we're only scarcity is artificial and we're only scarcity is artificial and we're only inventing it, we realize, in order that inventing it, we realize, in order that inventing it, we realize, in order that we can feel good and special and maybe we can feel good and special and maybe we can feel good and special and maybe we can find other ways to feel good and we can find other ways to feel good and we can find other ways to feel good and special. I allow for that possibility. special. I allow for that possibility. special. I allow for that possibility. I'm not particularly optimistic that I'm not particularly optimistic that I'm not particularly optimistic that that's what will happen. On the flip that's what will happen. On the flip that's what will happen. On the flip side, I would say it's easy to say that side, I would say it's easy to say that side, I would say it's easy to say that money won't matter when you have a money won't matter when you have a money won't matter when you have a trillion dollars. Right. Right. I I trillion dollars. Right. Right. I I trillion dollars. Right. Right. I I mean, you know, you just have to sort of mean, you know, you just have to sort of mean, you know, you just have to sort of see this stuff in context, but yeah, see this stuff in context, but yeah, see this stuff in context, but yeah, >> we have one more little uh >> we have one more little uh >> we have one more little uh >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> souvenir thing there. And this is kind >> souvenir thing there. And this is kind >> souvenir thing there. And this is kind of what we're talking about, which is of what we're talking about, which is of what we're talking about, which is robots. Do you think AI can become robots. Do you think AI can become robots. Do you think AI can become conscious is the question? conscious is the question? conscious is the question? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> High confidence or low confidence?

>> High confidence or low confidence? >> High confidence or low confidence? >> Yeah, I'm pretty high confident on that. >> Yeah, I'm pretty high confident on that. >> Yeah, I'm pretty high confident on that. You know, again, as I'm saying before, I You know, again, as I'm saying before, I You know, again, as I'm saying before, I just see consciousness as a physical just see consciousness as a physical just see consciousness as a physical process and it's a matter of in one way process and it's a matter of in one way process and it's a matter of in one way or another achieving that physical or another achieving that physical or another achieving that physical process in an artificial system. And I process in an artificial system. And I process in an artificial system. And I don't see a fundamental barrier to doing don't see a fundamental barrier to doing don't see a fundamental barrier to doing that. that. that. >> I was thinking about how laws would have >> I was thinking about how laws would have >> I was thinking about how laws would have to potentially change if if we to potentially change if if we to potentially change if if we considered robots to be conscious and considered robots to be conscious and considered robots to be conscious and they lived in our homes, would they then they lived in our homes, would they then they lived in our homes, would they then get rights? get rights? get rights? >> I think that's something we should think >> I think that's something we should think >> I think that's something we should think about now, actually. Yeah. It's a very about now, actually. Yeah. It's a very about now, actually. Yeah. It's a very tricky uh idea. I mean, you know, it's tricky uh idea. I mean, you know, it's tricky uh idea. I mean, you know, it's one thing, you know, to pull the plug on one thing, you know, to pull the plug on one thing, you know, to pull the plug on a on a light bulb. It's another thing to a on a light bulb. It's another thing to a on a light bulb. It's another thing to pull the plug on a sentient system. And pull the plug on a sentient system. And pull the plug on a sentient system. And we may well find ourselves we may well find ourselves we may well find ourselves in that situation. The the the challenge in that situation. The the the challenge in that situation. The the the challenge the challenge is the challenge is the challenge is it's virtually impossible to ever prove it's virtually impossible to ever prove it's virtually impossible to ever prove sentience, right? I mean, you know, as sentience, right? I mean, you know, as sentience, right? I mean, you know, as we look at each other, we each afford we look at each other, we each afford we look at each other, we each afford the other consciousness. I believe that the other consciousness. I believe that the other consciousness. I believe that you are conscious. You believe that I am you are conscious. You believe that I am you are conscious. You believe that I am as well. Why? You were more or less, you as well. Why? You were more or less, you as well. Why? You were more or less, you know, physically constructed more or know, physically constructed more or know, physically constructed more or less the same way. We're part of the less the same way. We're part of the less the same way. We're part of the same species. Uh, our body language, our same species. Uh, our body language, our same species. Uh, our body language, our speech is so similar in the grand scheme speech is so similar in the grand scheme speech is so similar in the grand scheme of things that we afford the other what of things that we afford the other what of things that we afford the other what we internally experience.

we internally experience. we internally experience. But we don't know it, right? You don't But we don't know it, right? You don't But we don't know it, right? You don't know that I'm conscious. I could be know that I'm conscious. I could be know that I'm conscious. I could be faking it. I could be a really good faking it. I could be a really good faking it. I could be a really good artificial zombie that speaks and talks, artificial zombie that speaks and talks, artificial zombie that speaks and talks, but there's nothing going on inside. And but there's nothing going on inside. And but there's nothing going on inside. And the same could be true for you. And what the same could be true for you. And what the same could be true for you. And what that means is when we are with these that means is when we are with these that means is when we are with these artificial systems that don't have our artificial systems that don't have our artificial systems that don't have our lineage, they're not part of the same lineage, they're not part of the same lineage, they're not part of the same species. They don't necessarily look species. They don't necessarily look species. They don't necessarily look like us, they don't have the upbringing like us, they don't have the upbringing like us, they don't have the upbringing that we had, and so on and so forth. that we had, and so on and so forth. that we had, and so on and so forth. Will we be willing to agree that they're Will we be willing to agree that they're Will we be willing to agree that they're conscious if they tell us that they are? conscious if they tell us that they are? conscious if they tell us that they are? I mean, if the artificial system says, I mean, if the artificial system says, I mean, if the artificial system says, "I really am. I'm I'm feeling exactly "I really am. I'm I'm feeling exactly "I really am. I'm I'm feeling exactly the thing that I read about in your the thing that I read about in your the thing that I read about in your internet. I'm I'm I'm feeling love or internet. I'm I'm I'm feeling love or internet. I'm I'm I'm feeling love or I'm feeling depressed." If they say that I'm feeling depressed." If they say that I'm feeling depressed." If they say that to us, we say, "No, no, no. You're just to us, we say, "No, no, no. You're just to us, we say, "No, no, no. You're just mimicking. You're mimming the kinds of mimicking. You're mimming the kinds of mimicking. You're mimming the kinds of things that human beings have said. things that human beings have said. things that human beings have said. There's nothing going on inside. There's There's nothing going on inside. There's There's nothing going on inside. There's nothing. There's no world inside there. nothing. There's no world inside there. nothing. There's no world inside there. How do we ever get beyond that?" And I How do we ever get beyond that?" And I How do we ever get beyond that?" And I don't know the answer to that question. don't know the answer to that question. don't know the answer to that question. Even though I strongly believe that Even though I strongly believe that Even though I strongly believe that there's no logical fundamental barrier there's no logical fundamental barrier there's no logical fundamental barrier that prevents the system from saying that prevents the system from saying that prevents the system from saying that and from telling the truth that and from telling the truth that and from telling the truth >> and electrical circuits within that >> and electrical circuits within that >> and electrical circuits within that system causing it to behave in such a system causing it to behave in such a system causing it to behave in such a way when it's scared, when it's in love way when it's scared, when it's in love way when it's scared, when it's in love >> where it cuddles you and because that's >> where it cuddles you and because that's >> where it cuddles you and because that's what the electrical circuits told it to what the electrical circuits told it to what the electrical circuits told it to do.

do. do. >> Yes. But is there an inner world >> Yes. But is there an inner world >> Yes. But is there an inner world associated with that or is it just going associated with that or is it just going associated with that or is it just going through the motions? Here's how I think through the motions? Here's how I think through the motions? Here's how I think it's going to likely turn out. We'll it's going to likely turn out. We'll it's going to likely turn out. We'll have these artificial systems. They'll have these artificial systems. They'll have these artificial systems. They'll start to say these things. At first, start to say these things. At first, start to say these things. At first, we'll be like, "Oh, come on. Come on. we'll be like, "Oh, come on. Come on. we'll be like, "Oh, come on. Come on. Come on. It's not not real." But we'll Come on. It's not not real." But we'll Come on. It's not not real." But we'll start to get used to them behaving just start to get used to them behaving just start to get used to them behaving just like we in the sense of having these like we in the sense of having these like we in the sense of having these inner worlds. And sooner or later, inner worlds. And sooner or later, inner worlds. And sooner or later, through a process that's so perhaps slow through a process that's so perhaps slow through a process that's so perhaps slow that we don't even notice it, we will that we don't even notice it, we will that we don't even notice it, we will afford them consciousness. We will talk afford them consciousness. We will talk afford them consciousness. We will talk to them as if they're conscious. We will to them as if they're conscious. We will to them as if they're conscious. We will imagine that they're conscious. and imagine that they're conscious. and imagine that they're conscious. and ultimately we will treat them as if ultimately we will treat them as if ultimately we will treat them as if they're conscious. Now, I hope that we they're conscious. Now, I hope that we they're conscious. Now, I hope that we do that in a in a good way. We have a do that in a in a good way. We have a do that in a in a good way. We have a terrible history of treating conscious terrible history of treating conscious terrible history of treating conscious beings in a respectful way, even in the beings in a respectful way, even in the beings in a respectful way, even in the same species, right? We've done terrible same species, right? We've done terrible same species, right? We've done terrible things to each other even though we things to each other even though we things to each other even though we afford consciousness. We do terrible afford consciousness. We do terrible afford consciousness. We do terrible things to animals. I'm vegan. I don't things to animals. I'm vegan. I don't things to animals. I'm vegan. I don't eat any animal products. I think that's eat any animal products. I think that's eat any animal products. I think that's not the way to treat a living system not the way to treat a living system not the way to treat a living system that has some level of conscious that has some level of conscious that has some level of conscious awareness. I do eat plants. I don't awareness. I do eat plants. I don't awareness. I do eat plants. I don't think plants have a sufficiently high think plants have a sufficiently high think plants have a sufficiently high level of consciousness, if at all, that level of consciousness, if at all, that level of consciousness, if at all, that I'm concerned about cutting them and I'm concerned about cutting them and I'm concerned about cutting them and eating them.

eating them. eating them. >> Have you always been vegan? >> Have you always been vegan? >> Have you always been vegan? >> I've been vegan since 1993. >> I've been vegan since 1993. >> I've been vegan since 1993. >> Oh, damn. Since I was >> Oh, damn. Since I was >> Oh, damn. Since I was >> So, I've been vegetarian since I was 9 >> So, I've been vegetarian since I was 9 >> So, I've been vegetarian since I was 9 years old. And so, that's how I treat years old. And so, that's how I treat years old. And so, that's how I treat living or conscious beings because I living or conscious beings because I living or conscious beings because I don't think it's right to treat them don't think it's right to treat them don't think it's right to treat them that way. that way. that way. >> What was the catalyst for that decision? >> What was the catalyst for that decision? >> What was the catalyst for that decision? Well, when I was 9 years old, it was Well, when I was 9 years old, it was Well, when I was 9 years old, it was very flat-footed. My mother cooked spare very flat-footed. My mother cooked spare very flat-footed. My mother cooked spare ribs, and for the very first time, I ribs, and for the very first time, I ribs, and for the very first time, I realized what meat was. I'm a city kid. realized what meat was. I'm a city kid. realized what meat was. I'm a city kid. I grew up where meat was in cellophane. I grew up where meat was in cellophane. I grew up where meat was in cellophane. You buy it wrapped at the supermarket. You buy it wrapped at the supermarket. You buy it wrapped at the supermarket. But when the meat came on a bone, I was But when the meat came on a bone, I was But when the meat came on a bone, I was like, "Wait a second, what is that?" I like, "Wait a second, what is that?" I like, "Wait a second, what is that?" I was like, "Oh my god, this is like the was like, "Oh my god, this is like the was like, "Oh my god, this is like the rib of an animal." And I was like, and rib of an animal." And I was like, and rib of an animal." And I was like, and and I said, "I'm to I said, I'm never and I said, "I'm to I said, I'm never and I said, "I'm to I said, I'm never going to eat meat again." Later on, I going to eat meat again." Later on, I going to eat meat again." Later on, I did eat, you know, cheese and milk. I did eat, you know, cheese and milk. I did eat, you know, cheese and milk. I wasn't vegan at that point, but when I wasn't vegan at that point, but when I wasn't vegan at that point, but when I was a professor at Cornell in the 1990s, was a professor at Cornell in the 1990s, was a professor at Cornell in the 1990s, I went to an animal sanctuary in Watkins I went to an animal sanctuary in Watkins I went to an animal sanctuary in Watkins Glenn, New York, where they showed you Glenn, New York, where they showed you Glenn, New York, where they showed you what happens to these animals when they what happens to these animals when they what happens to these animals when they are treated like milk factories. You are treated like milk factories. You are treated like milk factories. You what happens to the cows? And it's it's what happens to the cows? And it's it's what happens to the cows? And it's it's awful. And within 72 hours after awful. And within 72 hours after awful. And within 72 hours after visiting that animal sanctuary, I said, visiting that animal sanctuary, I said, visiting that animal sanctuary, I said, "I'm done. I'm not participating any "I'm done. I'm not participating any "I'm done. I'm not participating any longer. I'm not going to eat or drink or longer. I'm not going to eat or drink or longer. I'm not going to eat or drink or embibe any living any substance that embibe any living any substance that embibe any living any substance that came from an animal. And so that was the came from an animal. And so that was the came from an animal. And so that was the end for me.

end for me. end for me. >> For some people it might be somewhat >> For some people it might be somewhat >> For some people it might be somewhat surprising to hear that from a surprising to hear that from a surprising to hear that from a physicist. physicist. physicist. I agree it's inconsistent because if I I agree it's inconsistent because if I I agree it's inconsistent because if I believe as I do that you and I are just believe as I do that you and I are just believe as I do that you and I are just a collection of particles in one a collection of particles in one a collection of particles in one configuration and the cow or the pig is configuration and the cow or the pig is configuration and the cow or the pig is just a collection of particles in a just a collection of particles in a just a collection of particles in a different what does it matter if you eat different what does it matter if you eat different what does it matter if you eat particles in one configuration that we particles in one configuration that we particles in one configuration that we call a cow or another configuration that call a cow or another configuration that call a cow or another configuration that we call a carrot. But as a human being, we call a carrot. But as a human being, we call a carrot. But as a human being, I allow the other parts of me to shine I allow the other parts of me to shine I allow the other parts of me to shine through and I look at that collection of through and I look at that collection of through and I look at that collection of particles that happens to be a cow and I particles that happens to be a cow and I particles that happens to be a cow and I say, "It just doesn't feel right to me say, "It just doesn't feel right to me say, "It just doesn't feel right to me to eat that collection of particles. It to eat that collection of particles. It to eat that collection of particles. It just doesn't feel right and I don't want just doesn't feel right and I don't want just doesn't feel right and I don't want to do it." to do it." to do it." >> Brian, you've written many fascinating >> Brian, you've written many fascinating >> Brian, you've written many fascinating books. I've got some of them here. I books. I've got some of them here. I books. I've got some of them here. I think there's one other that I'm think there's one other that I'm think there's one other that I'm missing, I believe. missing, I believe. missing, I believe. >> Yeah, there's a more of a kids book, I >> Yeah, there's a more of a kids book, I >> Yeah, there's a more of a kids book, I think. think. think. >> Kids book. For my listeners at home, >> Kids book. For my listeners at home, >> Kids book. For my listeners at home, what is the most interesting thing that what is the most interesting thing that what is the most interesting thing that we haven't talked about that we should we haven't talked about that we should we haven't talked about that we should have talked about that exists within have talked about that exists within have talked about that exists within your works that I guess is re either your works that I guess is re either your works that I guess is re either fascinating or somewhat relevant to fascinating or somewhat relevant to fascinating or somewhat relevant to their everyday life?

their everyday life? their everyday life? >> Yeah. Well, I'm going to go more in the >> Yeah. Well, I'm going to go more in the >> Yeah. Well, I'm going to go more in the fascinating than relevant to everyday fascinating than relevant to everyday fascinating than relevant to everyday life. As you know, I'm pretty esoteric life. As you know, I'm pretty esoteric life. As you know, I'm pretty esoteric [laughter] in these kind of things. But [laughter] in these kind of things. But [laughter] in these kind of things. But in the book Until the End of Time, I I in the book Until the End of Time, I I in the book Until the End of Time, I I tried to give the reader a sense of how tried to give the reader a sense of how tried to give the reader a sense of how we got here, but I also then turned to we got here, but I also then turned to we got here, but I also then turned to the future and tried to give them a the future and tried to give them a the future and tried to give them a sense of what we'll be if we go sense of what we'll be if we go sense of what we'll be if we go arbitrarily far into the future. And arbitrarily far into the future. And arbitrarily far into the future. And yeah, that's it. I used a metaphor of yeah, that's it. I used a metaphor of yeah, that's it. I used a metaphor of the empire state building which I I the empire state building which I I the empire state building which I I think helps you get a feel for what the think helps you get a feel for what the think helps you get a feel for what the universe will be like if you take the universe will be like if you take the universe will be like if you take the current understanding of the laws of current understanding of the laws of current understanding of the laws of physics and extrapolate arbitrarily far physics and extrapolate arbitrarily far physics and extrapolate arbitrarily far into the future. And so to try to give into the future. And so to try to give into the future. And so to try to give people a sense I asked them to imagine people a sense I asked them to imagine people a sense I asked them to imagine that every floor of the Empire State that every floor of the Empire State that every floor of the Empire State Building represents an era of time Building represents an era of time Building represents an era of time that's 10 times longer than the floor that's 10 times longer than the floor that's 10 times longer than the floor below. So like at the at the ground below. So like at the at the ground below. So like at the at the ground floor that's like one year and then the floor that's like one year and then the floor that's like one year and then the next floor 10 next is the 100,000 10,000 next floor 10 next is the 100,000 10,000 next floor 10 next is the 100,000 10,000 100,000 and so forth exponentially 100,000 and so forth exponentially 100,000 and so forth exponentially larger time scales as you walk up the larger time scales as you walk up the larger time scales as you walk up the stairs of the Empire State Building. Now stairs of the Empire State Building. Now stairs of the Empire State Building. Now in this way of thinking about things in this way of thinking about things in this way of thinking about things everything from the big bang until today everything from the big bang until today everything from the big bang until today takes you to just about here the 10th takes you to just about here the 10th takes you to just about here the 10th floor. We are about 10 to the 10 years floor. We are about 10 to the 10 years floor. We are about 10 to the 10 years from the beginning. And what I do is I from the beginning. And what I do is I from the beginning. And what I do is I take the audience from that point and I take the audience from that point and I take the audience from that point and I step through the key markers in the far step through the key markers in the far step through the key markers in the far future of the universe to give you a future of the universe to give you a future of the universe to give you a feel for what will happen. And I can feel for what will happen. And I can feel for what will happen. And I can sort of take you through a couple

sort of take you through a couple sort of take you through a couple milestones, right? So again, here we are milestones, right? So again, here we are milestones, right? So again, here we are today. today. today. >> Stop when it gets scary. >> Stop when it gets scary. >> Stop when it gets scary. >> Yeah. Well, it's scary the whole way, >> Yeah. Well, it's scary the whole way, >> Yeah. Well, it's scary the whole way, you know. So here we are 10 to the 10 you know. So here we are 10 to the 10 you know. So here we are 10 to the 10 years from the beginning. If you just go years from the beginning. If you just go years from the beginning. If you just go up to here, 10^ the 11 years, what up to here, 10^ the 11 years, what up to here, 10^ the 11 years, what happens here is the sun will get bigger happens here is the sun will get bigger happens here is the sun will get bigger and bigger. It swells. It eats up the and bigger. It swells. It eats up the and bigger. It swells. It eats up the close planets, Mercury and Venus. It may close planets, Mercury and Venus. It may close planets, Mercury and Venus. It may swallow up the Earth, too. We're not swallow up the Earth, too. We're not swallow up the Earth, too. We're not sure, but certainly it will make life on sure, but certainly it will make life on sure, but certainly it will make life on Earth virtually impossible because it Earth virtually impossible because it Earth virtually impossible because it will be so hot on this planet. If you go will be so hot on this planet. If you go will be so hot on this planet. If you go up to the next floor above that 10^ the up to the next floor above that 10^ the up to the next floor above that 10^ the 12 years from the beginning, what you 12 years from the beginning, what you 12 years from the beginning, what you find here is that the universe is find here is that the universe is find here is that the universe is expanding ever more quickly, driving the expanding ever more quickly, driving the expanding ever more quickly, driving the distant galaxies away faster than the distant galaxies away faster than the distant galaxies away faster than the speed of light. So we won't see them. So speed of light. So we won't see them. So speed of light. So we won't see them. So a future astronomer here looking out a future astronomer here looking out a future astronomer here looking out into the deep night sky will see only into the deep night sky will see only into the deep night sky will see only darkness in the deep, deep night sky. darkness in the deep, deep night sky. darkness in the deep, deep night sky. Everything will have drifted beyond the Everything will have drifted beyond the Everything will have drifted beyond the cosmic horizon. Why will it be going cosmic horizon. Why will it be going cosmic horizon. Why will it be going faster than the speed of light?

faster than the speed of light? faster than the speed of light? >> Because we have found surprisingly that >> Because we have found surprisingly that >> Because we have found surprisingly that the expansion is speeding up. the expansion is speeding up. the expansion is speeding up. >> And there's no limit to that. >> And there's no limit to that. >> And there's no limit to that. >> There doesn't seem to be a limit. Now >> There doesn't seem to be a limit. Now >> There doesn't seem to be a limit. Now again, there's always assumptions in again, there's always assumptions in again, there's always assumptions in every prognostication every prognostication every prognostication assuming that what we measure and see assuming that what we measure and see assuming that what we measure and see today will persist. It's like what the today will persist. It's like what the today will persist. It's like what the AI people are assuming that the growth AI people are assuming that the growth AI people are assuming that the growth that they see today will persist. Is that they see today will persist. Is that they see today will persist. Is that true? We don't know, but it's our that true? We don't know, but it's our that true? We don't know, but it's our best guess from the laws of physics that best guess from the laws of physics that best guess from the laws of physics that it will. If you then go up to about it will. If you then go up to about it will. If you then go up to about here, the uh 20th floor, something here, the uh 20th floor, something here, the uh 20th floor, something interesting happens. If the Earth is interesting happens. If the Earth is interesting happens. If the Earth is still here, if it wasn't swallowed up on still here, if it wasn't swallowed up on still here, if it wasn't swallowed up on the 11th floor by the swelling sun, the the 11th floor by the swelling sun, the the 11th floor by the swelling sun, the Earth is going to spiral into the dead Earth is going to spiral into the dead Earth is going to spiral into the dead sun because it will lose energy through sun because it will lose energy through sun because it will lose energy through gravitational radiation. Ripples in the gravitational radiation. Ripples in the gravitational radiation. Ripples in the fabric of space will cause the orbit of fabric of space will cause the orbit of fabric of space will cause the orbit of the Earth to decay. We will crash in to the Earth to decay. We will crash in to the Earth to decay. We will crash in to the dead sun. That will be the end of the dead sun. That will be the end of the dead sun. That will be the end of the Earth by about the 20th floor. But the Earth by about the 20th floor. But the Earth by about the 20th floor. But the end of life itself took place the end of life itself took place the end of life itself took place >> could easily have taken much earlier >> could easily have taken much earlier >> could easily have taken much earlier >> on the 11th floor. >> on the 11th floor. >> on the 11th floor. >> On the 11th floor. If we go up to about >> On the 11th floor. If we go up to about >> On the 11th floor. If we go up to about the 30th floor. What will happen here is the 30th floor. What will happen here is the 30th floor. What will happen here is that the stars themselves will spiral that the stars themselves will spiral that the stars themselves will spiral into into into the black hole at the center of most the black hole at the center of most the black hole at the center of most galaxies. So most galaxies have a black galaxies. So most galaxies have a black galaxies. So most galaxies have a black hole. We have one in the center of our hole. We have one in the center of our hole. We have one in the center of our Milky Way galaxy. And the stars Milky Way galaxy. And the stars Milky Way galaxy. And the stars themselves much like the earth will themselves much like the earth will themselves much like the earth will spiral into the sun the stars will spiral into the sun the stars will spiral into the sun the stars will spiral into the black hole which means spiral into the black hole which means spiral into the black hole which means there will be only kind of black holes there will be only kind of black holes there will be only kind of black holes as the remaining macroscopic structure

as the remaining macroscopic structure as the remaining macroscopic structure in the universe. in the universe. in the universe. >> Has that happened elsewhere? >> Has that happened elsewhere? >> Has that happened elsewhere? >> Oh certainly we see things that can >> Oh certainly we see things that can >> Oh certainly we see things that can spiral into black holes in and certainly spiral into black holes in and certainly spiral into black holes in and certainly even in the center of our galaxy there's even in the center of our galaxy there's even in the center of our galaxy there's evidence that there's activity there and evidence that there's activity there and evidence that there's activity there and that activity in part is stars being that activity in part is stars being that activity in part is stars being ripped apart as they fall into a black ripped apart as they fall into a black ripped apart as they fall into a black hole. So this is pretty clear that this hole. So this is pretty clear that this hole. So this is pretty clear that this will happen. will happen. will happen. >> Is this the end of all galaxies as they >> Is this the end of all galaxies as they >> Is this the end of all galaxies as they spiral into the black hole? spiral into the black hole? spiral into the black hole? >> Yeah. So after 10^ the 30 10 the 35 >> Yeah. So after 10^ the 30 10 the 35 >> Yeah. So after 10^ the 30 10 the 35 years it's hard to imagine that galaxies years it's hard to imagine that galaxies years it's hard to imagine that galaxies as we know them will persist. The stars as we know them will persist. The stars as we know them will persist. The stars will have burned out. I could have even will have burned out. I could have even will have burned out. I could have even mentioned another milestone around the mentioned another milestone around the mentioned another milestone around the 14th floor. Almost all stars will have 14th floor. Almost all stars will have 14th floor. Almost all stars will have used up their nuclear fuel. used up their nuclear fuel. used up their nuclear fuel. >> All of them. >> All of them. >> All of them. >> Just about all of them will fade to >> Just about all of them will fade to >> Just about all of them will fade to black and black and black and >> all of them in the whole universe. >> all of them in the whole universe. >> all of them in the whole universe. >> Yeah. or at least the observable >> Yeah. or at least the observable >> Yeah. or at least the observable universe. I can only really speak to the universe. I can only really speak to the universe. I can only really speak to the part that we have direct access to. part that we have direct access to. part that we have direct access to. Yeah. And so by the 30th floor, those Yeah. And so by the 30th floor, those Yeah. And so by the 30th floor, those those dark stars will spiral into black those dark stars will spiral into black those dark stars will spiral into black holes. holes. holes. >> So there could be no life anywhere. >> So there could be no life anywhere. >> So there could be no life anywhere. >> It's hard to imagine, but let's be >> It's hard to imagine, but let's be >> It's hard to imagine, but let's be optimistic and imagine that somehow optimistic and imagine that somehow optimistic and imagine that somehow there is some life floating in the there is some life floating in the there is some life floating in the darkness cuz I want to get to something darkness cuz I want to get to something darkness cuz I want to get to something interesting on a two two more interesting on a two two more interesting on a two two more milestones. By the 38th floor, wherever milestones. By the 38th floor, wherever milestones. By the 38th floor, wherever that is, we believe that protons, which that is, we believe that protons, which that is, we believe that protons, which are the heart of matter, will likely are the heart of matter, will likely are the heart of matter, will likely themselves disintegrate, fall apart. And themselves disintegrate, fall apart. And themselves disintegrate, fall apart. And so, if there is any remaining organized so, if there is any remaining organized so, if there is any remaining organized matter of the sort that we're familiar matter of the sort that we're familiar matter of the sort that we're familiar with, somehow persisting somewhere, it with, somehow persisting somewhere, it with, somehow persisting somewhere, it itself will disintegrate by the 38th

itself will disintegrate by the 38th itself will disintegrate by the 38th floor. That's our belief based on our floor. That's our belief based on our floor. That's our belief based on our laws of physics. laws of physics. laws of physics. >> There'll be no matter anywhere. There >> There'll be no matter anywhere. There >> There'll be no matter anywhere. There will be fine particulate constituents will be fine particulate constituents will be fine particulate constituents because when a proton falls apart, it because when a proton falls apart, it because when a proton falls apart, it doesn't disappear. It falls apart into doesn't disappear. It falls apart into doesn't disappear. It falls apart into other more refined particles and so they other more refined particles and so they other more refined particles and so they will continue to persist but the will continue to persist but the will continue to persist but the aggregate called the proton will not. aggregate called the proton will not. aggregate called the proton will not. If we keep on going to roughly say the If we keep on going to roughly say the If we keep on going to roughly say the 50th floor, this is an interesting point 50th floor, this is an interesting point 50th floor, this is an interesting point because imagine that somehow some because imagine that somehow some because imagine that somehow some conscious being still exists in the conscious being still exists in the conscious being still exists in the darkness of space. I don't know how it darkness of space. I don't know how it darkness of space. I don't know how it is. Dark clouds of particles somehow are is. Dark clouds of particles somehow are is. Dark clouds of particles somehow are having electrical signals allowing them having electrical signals allowing them having electrical signals allowing them some kind of conscious self-awareness. some kind of conscious self-awareness. some kind of conscious self-awareness. After the 50th floor, that conscious After the 50th floor, that conscious After the 50th floor, that conscious being will likely think its final being will likely think its final being will likely think its final thought. The reason is when you think it thought. The reason is when you think it thought. The reason is when you think it generates heat. That heat has to be generates heat. That heat has to be generates heat. That heat has to be carried away. It's very easy for that carried away. It's very easy for that carried away. It's very easy for that heat to leave us in a room like here heat to leave us in a room like here heat to leave us in a room like here because there's a lot of room for that because there's a lot of room for that because there's a lot of room for that so-called heat or entropy to be so-called heat or entropy to be so-called heat or entropy to be absorbed. By the 50th floor, the absorbed. By the 50th floor, the absorbed. By the 50th floor, the universe won't be able to absorb the universe won't be able to absorb the universe won't be able to absorb the heat generated by the process of thought heat generated by the process of thought heat generated by the process of thought itself. So any thinking being when it itself. So any thinking being when it itself. So any thinking being when it thinks one more thought will burn up.

thinks one more thought will burn up. thinks one more thought will burn up. It'll fry in the entropic waste, the It'll fry in the entropic waste, the It'll fry in the entropic waste, the heat generated by thought itself. So by heat generated by thought itself. So by heat generated by thought itself. So by the 50th floor, it is hard to imagine the 50th floor, it is hard to imagine the 50th floor, it is hard to imagine any kind of consciousness continuing to any kind of consciousness continuing to any kind of consciousness continuing to exist. And that's why I said earlier exist. And that's why I said earlier exist. And that's why I said earlier when you said, "Do you think that we'll when you said, "Do you think that we'll when you said, "Do you think that we'll live forever?" I'm thinking here and I'm live forever?" I'm thinking here and I'm live forever?" I'm thinking here and I'm like, well, maybe we'll live to here like, well, maybe we'll live to here like, well, maybe we'll live to here like 500 years or a thousand years. But like 500 years or a thousand years. But like 500 years or a thousand years. But here, no way. It's hard for me to here, no way. It's hard for me to here, no way. It's hard for me to imagine that we will continue to imagine that we will continue to imagine that we will continue to persist. By the 68th floor, black holes persist. By the 68th floor, black holes persist. By the 68th floor, black holes themselves will begin to disintegrate. themselves will begin to disintegrate. themselves will begin to disintegrate. Stephven Hawking showed us that black Stephven Hawking showed us that black Stephven Hawking showed us that black holes are not fully black. When you take holes are not fully black. When you take holes are not fully black. When you take quantum physics into account, they can quantum physics into account, they can quantum physics into account, they can emit particles that will waft outward, emit particles that will waft outward, emit particles that will waft outward, causing the black hole to shrink. And causing the black hole to shrink. And causing the black hole to shrink. And over time, the black hole itself will over time, the black hole itself will over time, the black hole itself will disappear. A black hole the size of our disappear. A black hole the size of our disappear. A black hole the size of our sun with the mass of our sun about 10 sun with the mass of our sun about 10 sun with the mass of our sun about 10 the 68 years for that to happen. a black the 68 years for that to happen. a black the 68 years for that to happen. a black hole of the gargantuan sort that we hole of the gargantuan sort that we hole of the gargantuan sort that we think might exist, billions and billions think might exist, billions and billions think might exist, billions and billions of times more mass of the sun. It'll of times more mass of the sun. It'll of times more mass of the sun. It'll take about 10 to the hundred years, very take about 10 to the hundred years, very take about 10 to the hundred years, very top of the Empire State Building, for top of the Empire State Building, for top of the Empire State Building, for that kind of black hole to disintegrate.

that kind of black hole to disintegrate. that kind of black hole to disintegrate. But by the time we get here, 10 to the But by the time we get here, 10 to the But by the time we get here, 10 to the hundred years into the future, we hundred years into the future, we hundred years into the future, we suspect it will just be detritus of suspect it will just be detritus of suspect it will just be detritus of particles wafting through an ever particles wafting through an ever particles wafting through an ever larger, ever colder, ever quiet larger, ever colder, ever quiet larger, ever colder, ever quiet universe. That's the future that we're universe. That's the future that we're universe. That's the future that we're looking at. looking at. looking at. >> And then when does the big bang kick off >> And then when does the big bang kick off >> And then when does the big bang kick off and it all start again? and it all start again? and it all start again? >> Well, it's interesting because you're >> Well, it's interesting because you're >> Well, it's interesting because you're absolutely right. You can say, "What absolutely right. You can say, "What absolutely right. You can say, "What about beyond the top of the Empire State about beyond the top of the Empire State about beyond the top of the Empire State Building? Now things look this whole Building? Now things look this whole Building? Now things look this whole thing is speculative right we are thing is speculative right we are thing is speculative right we are extrapolating from laws of physics that extrapolating from laws of physics that extrapolating from laws of physics that we've developed on thinking about we've developed on thinking about we've developed on thinking about physics here we're assuming that it physics here we're assuming that it physics here we're assuming that it applies all the way up into the applies all the way up into the applies all the way up into the exponentially far future is that true I exponentially far future is that true I exponentially far future is that true I don't know it's our best guess based on don't know it's our best guess based on don't know it's our best guess based on what we know today but definitely it is what we know today but definitely it is what we know today but definitely it is an assumption if you extrapolate even an assumption if you extrapolate even an assumption if you extrapolate even further then yeah you can imagine that further then yeah you can imagine that further then yeah you can imagine that way an exponential of an exponential of way an exponential of an exponential of way an exponential of an exponential of years into the future Sure. Sure. Could years into the future Sure. Sure. Could years into the future Sure. Sure. Could particles somehow recoales just by particles somehow recoales just by particles somehow recoales just by chance and build a state of matter that chance and build a state of matter that chance and build a state of matter that might generate another big bang and it might generate another big bang and it might generate another big bang and it all starts again? Yes, definitely within all starts again? Yes, definitely within all starts again? Yes, definitely within the realm of possibility.

the realm of possibility. the realm of possibility. >> It's uh it's not the most appealing >> It's uh it's not the most appealing >> It's uh it's not the most appealing future. future. future. >> Well, I agree. But here, can I tell you >> Well, I agree. But here, can I tell you >> Well, I agree. But here, can I tell you my take on it? my take on it? my take on it? >> Sure. My take on it is when you realize >> Sure. My take on it is when you realize >> Sure. My take on it is when you realize that, you know, the far future is a that, you know, the far future is a that, you know, the far future is a realm of darkness and when you also realm of darkness and when you also realm of darkness and when you also realize that until life emerged, say on realize that until life emerged, say on realize that until life emerged, say on planet Earth, it was a kind of realm of planet Earth, it was a kind of realm of planet Earth, it was a kind of realm of chaotic chaotic chaotic conglomeration of particles, you know, conglomeration of particles, you know, conglomeration of particles, you know, before. So, it's as if we're living in a before. So, it's as if we're living in a before. So, it's as if we're living in a special time. We're living at a special special time. We're living at a special special time. We're living at a special region in the cosmological unfolding region in the cosmological unfolding region in the cosmological unfolding when living beings like ourselves and when living beings like ourselves and when living beings like ourselves and consciousness as we experience is consciousness as we experience is consciousness as we experience is compatible with the state of the compatible with the state of the compatible with the state of the universe. How wondrous, how spectacular universe. How wondrous, how spectacular universe. How wondrous, how spectacular that there is this brief window of time. that there is this brief window of time. that there is this brief window of time. I mean Nabakov had this wonderful saying I mean Nabakov had this wonderful saying I mean Nabakov had this wonderful saying that we live in a brief crack of light that we live in a brief crack of light that we live in a brief crack of light between two between two between two eternal stretches of darkness.

eternal stretches of darkness. eternal stretches of darkness. How beautiful to exist in that brief How beautiful to exist in that brief How beautiful to exist in that brief crack of light. And that to me is where crack of light. And that to me is where crack of light. And that to me is where the gratitude comes from that I was the gratitude comes from that I was the gratitude comes from that I was mentioning earlier. You said earlier mentioning earlier. You said earlier mentioning earlier. You said earlier like what gives your life meaning and like what gives your life meaning and like what gives your life meaning and how the fact that we understand that we how the fact that we understand that we how the fact that we understand that we live in this very special era in live in this very special era in live in this very special era in cosmological history where for a small cosmological history where for a small cosmological history where for a small period of cosmic time living beings can period of cosmic time living beings can period of cosmic time living beings can stand up look around contemplate stand up look around contemplate stand up look around contemplate themselves and the universe and gain themselves and the universe and gain themselves and the universe and gain some insight and then it all goes away. some insight and then it all goes away. some insight and then it all goes away. But how wonderful that there is that But how wonderful that there is that But how wonderful that there is that brief moment that we are now inhabiting. brief moment that we are now inhabiting. brief moment that we are now inhabiting. It is wonderful when you say it like It is wonderful when you say it like It is wonderful when you say it like that. that. that. >> Frank, the thing that's I think is most >> Frank, the thing that's I think is most >> Frank, the thing that's I think is most special about you isn't just the extent special about you isn't just the extent special about you isn't just the extent of your intelligence. It's your ability of your intelligence. It's your ability of your intelligence. It's your ability to communicate in such a way that makes to communicate in such a way that makes to communicate in such a way that makes the complex both interesting and the complex both interesting and the complex both interesting and understandable. And that's what I've understandable. And that's what I've understandable. And that's what I've seen throughout all of your work and all seen throughout all of your work and all seen throughout all of your work and all the videos that I was I was told you I the videos that I was I was told you I the videos that I was I was told you I was watching your TED talk with my was watching your TED talk with my was watching your TED talk with my fiance a couple of weeks ago and um it's fiance a couple of weeks ago and um it's fiance a couple of weeks ago and um it's the closest I've ever come to actually the closest I've ever come to actually the closest I've ever come to actually understanding this concept called string understanding this concept called string understanding this concept called string theory. theory. theory. >> Oh, great. Well, I'm glad to hear it and >> Oh, great. Well, I'm glad to hear it and >> Oh, great. Well, I'm glad to hear it and thank you very much. Really appreciate thank you very much. Really appreciate thank you very much. Really appreciate that.

that. that. >> I have a couple of your books here. I >> I have a couple of your books here. I >> I have a couple of your books here. I think this is the most recent one from think this is the most recent one from think this is the most recent one from 2020 called Until the End of Time: Mind 2020 called Until the End of Time: Mind 2020 called Until the End of Time: Mind Matter and Our Search for Meaning in an Matter and Our Search for Meaning in an Matter and Our Search for Meaning in an Evolving Universe. And I think um you Evolving Universe. And I think um you Evolving Universe. And I think um you know, your work makes makes us feel so know, your work makes makes us feel so know, your work makes makes us feel so many things, but I think maybe the most many things, but I think maybe the most many things, but I think maybe the most important feeling it makes us feel is important feeling it makes us feel is important feeling it makes us feel is connected. connected. connected. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think we're all searching for >> Um and I think we're all searching for >> Um and I think we're all searching for connection in an increasingly lonely, connection in an increasingly lonely, connection in an increasingly lonely, isolated, feeling universe. And and so isolated, feeling universe. And and so isolated, feeling universe. And and so that's why I love to have these that's why I love to have these that's why I love to have these conversations on the show. I sometimes conversations on the show. I sometimes conversations on the show. I sometimes joke to the team that diio the C in it joke to the team that diio the C in it joke to the team that diio the C in it stands for like our one of our goals is stands for like our one of our goals is stands for like our one of our goals is to make people feel more connected in to make people feel more connected in to make people feel more connected in some capacity and you most certainly do some capacity and you most certainly do some capacity and you most certainly do that. So thank you for having that that. So thank you for having that that. So thank you for having that impact on the world. It's a it's a very impact on the world. It's a it's a very impact on the world. It's a it's a very important increasingly important impact important increasingly important impact important increasingly important impact to be having on the world and um it to be having on the world and um it to be having on the world and um it makes us look up not just down I guess makes us look up not just down I guess makes us look up not just down I guess and that's a that's a wonderful and that's a that's a wonderful and that's a that's a wonderful wonderful thing. wonderful thing. wonderful thing. >> Well thank you. >> Well thank you. >> Well thank you. >> I'm going to link all of your books >> I'm going to link all of your books >> I'm going to link all of your books below so if people do want to continue below so if people do want to continue below so if people do want to continue this conversation they can continue it this conversation they can continue it this conversation they can continue it through all of your books here. Is there through all of your books here. Is there through all of your books here. Is there anywhere else people can go to support anywhere else people can go to support anywhere else people can go to support your work or learn more about your work? your work or learn more about your work? your work or learn more about your work? Where would you direct them? considering Where would you direct them? considering Where would you direct them? considering World Science Festival, you know, uh World Science Festival, you know, uh World Science Festival, you know, uh world sciencefestestival.com. You'll world sciencefestestival.com. You'll world sciencefestestival.com. You'll find all sorts of conversations of the find all sorts of conversations of the find all sorts of conversations of the sort that we're talking about here. Uh sort that we're talking about here. Uh sort that we're talking about here. Uh also, I'm I'm working on a new AI. We're also, I'm I'm working on a new AI. We're also, I'm I'm working on a new AI. We're talking a lot about an AI education talking a lot about an AI education talking a lot about an AI education system where AI will help people system where AI will help people system where AI will help people understand these ideas better. It should understand these ideas better. It should understand these ideas better. It should launch sort of in in next year or so.

launch sort of in in next year or so. launch sort of in in next year or so. So, keep an eye out for that kind of So, keep an eye out for that kind of So, keep an eye out for that kind of thing as well. thing as well. thing as well. >> Where do people follow you? Uh well, you >> Where do people follow you? Uh well, you >> Where do people follow you? Uh well, you know, on on Twitter or Instagram, we we know, on on Twitter or Instagram, we we know, on on Twitter or Instagram, we we post uh semifrequently, but uh more at post uh semifrequently, but uh more at post uh semifrequently, but uh more at our YouTube channel, uh World Science our YouTube channel, uh World Science our YouTube channel, uh World Science Festival. Festival. Festival. >> And in terms of these books that I have >> And in terms of these books that I have >> And in terms of these books that I have in front of me, I have four of them, in front of me, I have four of them, in front of me, I have four of them, different groups of people, which one different groups of people, which one different groups of people, which one would you direct them to read? would you direct them to read? would you direct them to read? >> Well, my favorite, if you sort of frame >> Well, my favorite, if you sort of frame >> Well, my favorite, if you sort of frame it in that flat-footed way, is Until the it in that flat-footed way, is Until the it in that flat-footed way, is Until the End of Time because it's the more End of Time because it's the more End of Time because it's the more philosophical and the more the kind of philosophical and the more the kind of philosophical and the more the kind of ideas that we spoke about here today. ideas that we spoke about here today. ideas that we spoke about here today. But if you know if you want to hear the But if you know if you want to hear the But if you know if you want to hear the hardcore of what string theory is or the hardcore of what string theory is or the hardcore of what string theory is or the new insights in space and time some of new insights in space and time some of new insights in space and time some of the other books are more directed in the other books are more directed in the other books are more directed in that way that way that way >> until the end of time. Mind matter and >> until the end of time. Mind matter and >> until the end of time. Mind matter and our search for meaning in an evolving our search for meaning in an evolving our search for meaning in an evolving universe. We have a closing tradition universe. We have a closing tradition universe. We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question where the last guest leaves a question where the last guest leaves a question to the next. The question left for you to the next. The question left for you to the next. The question left for you is what might be worth even more than is what might be worth even more than is what might be worth even more than the thing that matters most to you? the thing that matters most to you? the thing that matters most to you? Oh, well, I would say the thing that Oh, well, I would say the thing that Oh, well, I would say the thing that matters most to the people I care most matters most to the people I care most matters most to the people I care most about, you know, the things that matter about, you know, the things that matter about, you know, the things that matter to my wife and my kids feels much more to my wife and my kids feels much more to my wife and my kids feels much more important than the things that matter to important than the things that matter to important than the things that matter to me most because I'm so involved in that me most because I'm so involved in that me most because I'm so involved in that relationship, you know. So, that to me relationship, you know. So, that to me relationship, you know. So, that to me is the thing that trumps all else, is the thing that trumps all else, is the thing that trumps all else, >> the things that matter more to them.

>> the things that matter more to them. >> the things that matter more to them. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it's a beautiful answer. Wasn't >> it's a beautiful answer. Wasn't >> it's a beautiful answer. Wasn't expecting that, but it's very true. expecting that, but it's very true. expecting that, but it's very true. Brian Green, thank you so much. It's Brian Green, thank you so much. It's Brian Green, thank you so much. It's been an honor. been an honor. been an honor. >> My pleasure. Thank you. >> My pleasure. Thank you. >> My pleasure. Thank you. >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you where they know exactly what video you where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and would like to watch next based on AI and would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the all of your viewing behavior. And the all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video is the algorithm says that this video is the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different perfect video for you. It's different perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check for everybody looking right now. Check for everybody looking right now. Check this video out and I bet you you might this video out and I bet you you might this video out and I bet you you might love it.