What Christian Faith Looks Like Facing Death: Lessons from Ben Sasse

Let's talk about your friend Ben Sasse, Let's talk about your friend Ben Sasse, who has been diagnosed with stage four who has been diagnosed with stage four who has been diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer. In fact, it has now pancreatic cancer. In fact, it has now pancreatic cancer. In fact, it has now branched out into five other different branched out into five other different branched out into five other different kinds of cancers. So, he has his body is kinds of cancers. So, he has his body is kinds of cancers. So, he has his body is pretty much riddled with it. Um this is pretty much riddled with it. Um this is pretty much riddled with it. Um this is a tragic and difficult uh story for us, a tragic and difficult uh story for us, a tragic and difficult uh story for us, right? It is that it is um right? It is that it is um right? It is that it is um hard to think about the end of a man who hard to think about the end of a man who hard to think about the end of a man who has contributed so much to American has contributed so much to American has contributed so much to American politics and to education. politics and to education. politics and to education. Um and what makes it especially Um and what makes it especially Um and what makes it especially interesting um is that Ben has lived so interesting um is that Ben has lived so interesting um is that Ben has lived so much of his life publicly and is now much of his life publicly and is now much of his life publicly and is now approaching dying publicly. He's done a approaching dying publicly. He's done a approaching dying publicly. He's done a number of appearances. He's been on lots number of appearances. He's been on lots number of appearances. He's been on lots of podcasts, um even hosting his own of podcasts, um even hosting his own of podcasts, um even hosting his own podcast. And so, um one of the questions podcast. And so, um one of the questions podcast. And so, um one of the questions that Ross asked him, Ross Douthat asked that Ross asked him, Ross Douthat asked that Ross asked him, Ross Douthat asked him in the New York Times uh podcast him in the New York Times uh podcast him in the New York Times uh podcast last week is, "How come you're spending last week is, "How come you're spending last week is, "How come you're spending your time doing this when you could be your time doing this when you could be your time doing this when you could be spending your time with your family? You spending your time with your family? You spending your time with your family? You could be time spending your time could be time spending your time could be time spending your time traveling. You could be collecting traveling. You could be collecting traveling. You could be collecting seashells. Like, what is it, right? Um seashells. Like, what is it, right? Um seashells. Like, what is it, right? Um that makes you do this." And he And he that makes you do this." And he And he that makes you do this." And he And he just said, you know, "This is um I can't just said, you know, "This is um I can't just said, you know, "This is um I can't remember his exact answer. This is This remember his exact answer. This is This remember his exact answer. This is This is what he's called to do at the end of is what he's called to do at the end of is what he's called to do at the end of his life. What do you What do you think his life. What do you What do you think his life. What do you What do you think about that?

about that? about that? >> It's not just that he's called to make a >> It's not just that he's called to make a >> It's not just that he's called to make a number of media appearances, but to make number of media appearances, but to make number of media appearances, but to make those media appearances those media appearances those media appearances in the condition he's in. in the condition he's in. in the condition he's in. And yeah, I saw Ben didn't feel like And yeah, I saw Ben didn't feel like And yeah, I saw Ben didn't feel like that long ago, but in the stage of that long ago, but in the stage of that long ago, but in the stage of but in the in the situation with but in the in the situation with but in the in the situation with pancreatic cancer, that's pancreatic cancer, that's pancreatic cancer, that's you know, a long time ago. you know, a long time ago. you know, a long time ago. And when I saw the pictures show up of And when I saw the pictures show up of And when I saw the pictures show up of him him him just having lost so much of the skin on just having lost so much of the skin on just having lost so much of the skin on his face, it was a his face, it was a his face, it was a just a just a just a punch to the gut. I mean, that was that punch to the gut. I mean, that was that punch to the gut. I mean, that was that was really hard to see. was really hard to see. was really hard to see. Um it did make me think just to to fuse Um it did make me think just to to fuse Um it did make me think just to to fuse a couple of these a couple of these a couple of these fuse these stories together. One was fuse these stories together. One was fuse these stories together. One was the way that that visual communicates so the way that that visual communicates so the way that that visual communicates so much. He's much. He's much. He's he's smiling. he's smiling. he's smiling. He's laughing. He's joking. He's making He's laughing. He's joking. He's making He's laughing. He's joking. He's making fun of Ross Douthat during the fun of Ross Douthat during the fun of Ross Douthat during the interview. There's He's radiating a a interview. There's He's radiating a a interview. There's He's radiating a a joy joy joy even as you see the effects of this even as you see the effects of this even as you see the effects of this radiation radiation radiation that's literally that's literally that's literally makes it impossible for him to grow skin makes it impossible for him to grow skin makes it impossible for him to grow skin on his face. Um on his face. Um on his face. Um I mean, I was looking at I mean, I was looking at I mean, I was looking at different links on social media and different links on social media and different links on social media and there were content warnings and graphic there were content warnings and graphic there were content warnings and graphic warnings like you can't you can't you warnings like you can't you can't you warnings like you can't you can't you can't We're not going to share this can't We're not going to share this can't We're not going to share this image because it's so gruesome of him.

image because it's so gruesome of him. image because it's so gruesome of him. It also made me think, Sarah, of It also made me think, Sarah, of It also made me think, Sarah, of specifically Pope John Paul II and the specifically Pope John Paul II and the specifically Pope John Paul II and the way that Popes This is an office for way that Popes This is an office for way that Popes This is an office for life. It's why the, you know, Ratzinger life. It's why the, you know, Ratzinger life. It's why the, you know, Ratzinger resignation was such a shock. resignation was such a shock. resignation was such a shock. But Popes die in public. But Popes die in public. But Popes die in public. It's a calling to the end. And um you It's a calling to the end. And um you It's a calling to the end. And um you know, you looked at you know, Pope John know, you looked at you know, Pope John know, you looked at you know, Pope John Paul II with I believe Parkinson's at Paul II with I believe Parkinson's at Paul II with I believe Parkinson's at the end of his life. the end of his life. the end of his life. Um just just Um just just Um just just taking away his functions. Um but there taking away his functions. Um but there taking away his functions. Um but there was a certain sense that was a certain sense that was a certain sense that this is a calling into eternity and the this is a calling into eternity and the this is a calling into eternity and the close close that we get to eternity, the close close that we get to eternity, the close close that we get to eternity, the more we eagerly anticipate the renewal more we eagerly anticipate the renewal more we eagerly anticipate the renewal of all things starting with our you of all things starting with our you of all things starting with our you know, starting with our well, oddly know, starting with our well, oddly know, starting with our well, oddly enough, I mean, it's the the soul that enough, I mean, it's the the soul that enough, I mean, it's the the soul that is being sanctified through the process is being sanctified through the process is being sanctified through the process that connects into heaven. And then one that connects into heaven. And then one that connects into heaven. And then one day at the return of Christ, we day at the return of Christ, we day at the return of Christ, we anticipate the renewal of all things anticipate the renewal of all things anticipate the renewal of all things including our bodies. Um so, including our bodies. Um so, including our bodies. Um so, it's just fascinating to watch the it's just fascinating to watch the it's just fascinating to watch the theology play out. And I wonder, Sarah, theology play out. And I wonder, Sarah, theology play out. And I wonder, Sarah, what do you think what do you think what do you think that communicates to the world because that communicates to the world because that communicates to the world because so much of our dying now is in private.

so much of our dying now is in private. so much of our dying now is in private. Um and certainly we want to hide. You Um and certainly we want to hide. You Um and certainly we want to hide. You know, our whole life is about There was know, our whole life is about There was know, our whole life is about There was a funny exchange between Ross and Ben a funny exchange between Ross and Ben a funny exchange between Ross and Ben where Ross is talking about a certain where Ross is talking about a certain where Ross is talking about a certain social media trend and Ben is completely social media trend and Ben is completely social media trend and Ben is completely unaware of it. unaware of it. unaware of it. And it's about maximizing how perfect we And it's about maximizing how perfect we And it's about maximizing how perfect we look on social media and our bodies. look on social media and our bodies. look on social media and our bodies. Well, you can see why Ben is not Well, you can see why Ben is not Well, you can see why Ben is not connecting with that because he's connecting with that because he's connecting with that because he's unable to do anything but the complete unable to do anything but the complete unable to do anything but the complete opposite of that. But instead of, opposite of that. But instead of, opposite of that. But instead of, you know, hiding so that nobody can see you know, hiding so that nobody can see you know, hiding so that nobody can see this, these will be this, these will be this, these will be the images that we will remember of him the images that we will remember of him the images that we will remember of him for the rest of his life. So, I mean, I for the rest of his life. So, I mean, I for the rest of his life. So, I mean, I don't How do you How do you think that don't How do you How do you think that don't How do you How do you think that comes across? comes across? comes across? >> Yeah, it's just striking me so much that >> Yeah, it's just striking me so much that >> Yeah, it's just striking me so much that the way that it's such a powerful and the way that it's such a powerful and the way that it's such a powerful and poignant poignant poignant thing. Like, I cried during this thing. Like, I cried during this thing. Like, I cried during this interview, right? Cuz it's just like so interview, right? Cuz it's just like so interview, right? Cuz it's just like so your heart breaks with him. Yeah, he your heart breaks with him. Yeah, he your heart breaks with him. Yeah, he did. That's what made me start crying. did. That's what made me start crying. did. That's what made me start crying. Yeah, and so, um but I also I'm thinking Yeah, and so, um but I also I'm thinking Yeah, and so, um but I also I'm thinking of just like there's other times when we of just like there's other times when we of just like there's other times when we see him think This made me think a lot see him think This made me think a lot see him think This made me think a lot of Tim Challies, too, who of course lost of Tim Challies, too, who of course lost of Tim Challies, too, who of course lost his son. Um which would have been in any his son. Um which would have been in any his son. Um which would have been in any for anybody else a very a private thing.

for anybody else a very a private thing. for anybody else a very a private thing. Um but for him cuz he was already living Um but for him cuz he was already living Um but for him cuz he was already living in public, became an What he saw as a in public, became an What he saw as a in public, became an What he saw as a calling an opportunity to live his faith calling an opportunity to live his faith calling an opportunity to live his faith in public. And and I think you're in public. And and I think you're in public. And and I think you're exactly right because it um we're trying exactly right because it um we're trying exactly right because it um we're trying to hide the ugliness. We're trying to to hide the ugliness. We're trying to to hide the ugliness. We're trying to hide the pain of things. Um and of hide the pain of things. Um and of hide the pain of things. Um and of course, ironically, the more we do that, course, ironically, the more we do that, course, ironically, the more we do that, the more our our society, our depression the more our our society, our depression the more our our society, our depression and anxiety rates skyrocket. and anxiety rates skyrocket. and anxiety rates skyrocket. >> Yeah, well, because we're >> Yeah, well, because we're >> Yeah, well, because we're we're living a lie. we're living a lie. we're living a lie. Um Um Um You you could imagine any number of You you could imagine any number of You you could imagine any number of different ways different ways different ways to deal with the worst diagnosis you can to deal with the worst diagnosis you can to deal with the worst diagnosis you can get. get. get. Here with pancreatic cancer, Here with pancreatic cancer, Here with pancreatic cancer, you could imagine being in denial. you could imagine being in denial. you could imagine being in denial. You could imagine just surrendering, You could imagine just surrendering, You could imagine just surrendering, giving up. Um You can imagine any number giving up. Um You can imagine any number giving up. Um You can imagine any number of things, just disappearing, not even of things, just disappearing, not even of things, just disappearing, not even making an announcement to the public, making an announcement to the public, making an announcement to the public, and then one day you're just gone. and then one day you're just gone. and then one day you're just gone. Um None of these ways would necessarily Um None of these ways would necessarily Um None of these ways would necessarily in and of themselves be wrong. Um now, I in and of themselves be wrong. Um now, I in and of themselves be wrong. Um now, I having a total optimism and denying having a total optimism and denying having a total optimism and denying reality, that's a that's a problem. But, reality, that's a that's a problem. But, reality, that's a that's a problem. But, not everybody is comforted by the brutal not everybody is comforted by the brutal not everybody is comforted by the brutal facts in the way that Ben Sasse was. He facts in the way that Ben Sasse was. He facts in the way that Ben Sasse was. He talks a lot about that. Um that exchange talks a lot about that. Um that exchange talks a lot about that. Um that exchange with his doctors in there. And doctors with his doctors in there. And doctors with his doctors in there. And doctors wouldn't do that wouldn't do that wouldn't do that if everybody just loved to be told if everybody just loved to be told if everybody just loved to be told exactly what was going on with them. We exactly what was going on with them. We exactly what was going on with them. We don't tell everybody everything.

don't tell everybody everything. don't tell everybody everything. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Um so, I mean, imagine if this happens >> Um so, I mean, imagine if this happens >> Um so, I mean, imagine if this happens to one of our kids. to one of our kids. to one of our kids. Would you Would you tell them everything Would you Would you tell them everything Would you Would you tell them everything exactly? Um exactly? Um exactly? Um maybe not. Um maybe not. Um maybe not. Um it depends on the child, depends on the it depends on the child, depends on the it depends on the child, depends on the circumstances. circumstances. circumstances. And there, so um there's no This is not And there, so um there's no This is not And there, so um there's no This is not about telling people this is the way you about telling people this is the way you about telling people this is the way you need to die or not to die. need to die or not to die. need to die or not to die. It is the way that he believes God has It is the way that he believes God has It is the way that he believes God has chosen him to do this. chosen him to do this. chosen him to do this. And I think for those of us who've known And I think for those of us who've known And I think for those of us who've known Ben for Ben for Ben for any period of time, any period of time, any period of time, we're not surprised. we're not surprised. we're not surprised. And we're not And I think I'm just And we're not And I think I'm just And we're not And I think I'm just especially heartened even as I'm especially heartened even as I'm especially heartened even as I'm grieving and mourning his loss, grieving and mourning his loss, grieving and mourning his loss, um that he's still the same person we've um that he's still the same person we've um that he's still the same person we've always known. always known. always known. Um that combination of dealing with hard Um that combination of dealing with hard Um that combination of dealing with hard facts and hard realities and big ideas facts and hard realities and big ideas facts and hard realities and big ideas with joy and a smile on with joy and a smile on with joy and a smile on even when confronting the most even when confronting the most even when confronting the most difficult circumstances.

difficult circumstances. difficult circumstances. Um Um Um He's dying, Sarah, the way that he He's dying, Sarah, the way that he He's dying, Sarah, the way that he lived. lived. lived. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think is what's encouraging. >> I think is what's encouraging. >> I think is what's encouraging. >> And is there something universal in it >> And is there something universal in it >> And is there something universal in it in that we're all called to die well, to in that we're all called to die well, to in that we're all called to die well, to die faithfully, um die faithfully, um die faithfully, um to die um trusting? And so, I think to die um trusting? And so, I think to die um trusting? And so, I think there is a even we're watching him do there is a even we're watching him do there is a even we're watching him do it, but you might also be watching it, but you might also be watching it, but you might also be watching someone in your church do it um just on someone in your church do it um just on someone in your church do it um just on a much smaller level. a much smaller level. a much smaller level. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> One One of the really interesting things >> One One of the really interesting things >> One One of the really interesting things toward the end, Russ asks um Ben for his toward the end, Russ asks um Ben for his toward the end, Russ asks um Ben for his advice for parents. And I'm interested advice for parents. And I'm interested advice for parents. And I'm interested in asking you about it cuz you are in asking you about it cuz you are in asking you about it cuz you are probably probably probably your kids are the ages of the parent your kids are the ages of the parent your kids are the ages of the parent that he's talking to, right? So, his that he's talking to, right? So, his that he's talking to, right? So, his advice, I'll just run through it advice, I'll just run through it advice, I'll just run through it quickly, is basically um quickly, is basically um quickly, is basically um honor the Sabbath, make sure that you're honor the Sabbath, make sure that you're honor the Sabbath, make sure that you're resting, um have phone-free family resting, um have phone-free family resting, um have phone-free family dinners, dinners, dinners, stay in hotels. He said his ceiling, I stay in hotels. He said his ceiling, I stay in hotels. He said his ceiling, I thought was really interesting and less thought was really interesting and less thought was really interesting and less than I thought. He He said, "I was going than I thought. He He said, "I was going than I thought. He He said, "I was going to My ceiling was to stay in seven to My ceiling was to stay in seven to My ceiling was to stay in seven nights a month in a hotel and that was nights a month in a hotel and that was nights a month in a hotel and that was my ceiling. I wouldn't go anymore." my ceiling. I wouldn't go anymore." my ceiling. I wouldn't go anymore." Um I don't know if he would say, I think Um I don't know if he would say, I think Um I don't know if he would say, I think he probably at this point would say that he probably at this point would say that he probably at this point would say that was too much, but I don't know, you was too much, but I don't know, you was too much, but I don't know, you know, it's not a a biblical issue, but know, it's not a a biblical issue, but know, it's not a a biblical issue, but still interesting. And then to live still interesting. And then to live still interesting. And then to live thick with family, to live down the thick with family, to live down the thick with family, to live down the street from your parents, get some street from your parents, get some street from your parents, get some cousins, um raise your kids in that cousins, um raise your kids in that cousins, um raise your kids in that community. How does that strike you as a community. How does that strike you as a community. How does that strike you as a parent?

parent? parent? >> Well, my my kids are closer in age not >> Well, my my kids are closer in age not >> Well, my my kids are closer in age not to Ben's kids. His youngest is older to Ben's kids. His youngest is older to Ben's kids. His youngest is older than my oldest. Um but my kids are more than my oldest. Um but my kids are more than my oldest. Um but my kids are more similar in age to Ross's kids. similar in age to Ross's kids. similar in age to Ross's kids. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> Um and Ross and I are same age, both >> Um and Ross and I are same age, both >> Um and Ross and I are same age, both about a decade younger than Ben. about a decade younger than Ben. about a decade younger than Ben. And so, And so, And so, that was really significant and top of that was really significant and top of that was really significant and top of mind and you saw Ross say there, I mean mind and you saw Ross say there, I mean mind and you saw Ross say there, I mean of course he had traveled to Austin to of course he had traveled to Austin to of course he had traveled to Austin to do that interview and do that interview and do that interview and Ross's podcast has been this incredible Ross's podcast has been this incredible Ross's podcast has been this incredible smash success, smash success, smash success, but it must have increased his workload but it must have increased his workload but it must have increased his workload quite a bit. It must have increased his quite a bit. It must have increased his quite a bit. It must have increased his travel quite a bit. And I've worked with travel quite a bit. And I've worked with travel quite a bit. And I've worked with Ross on a number of events Ross on a number of events Ross on a number of events and that's always a challenge because and that's always a challenge because and that's always a challenge because he's wanting to be there to pick up his he's wanting to be there to pick up his he's wanting to be there to pick up his kids. He's wanting to be there and he kids. He's wanting to be there and he kids. He's wanting to be there and he and he's a devout Catholic. and he's a devout Catholic. and he's a devout Catholic. He's got a good number of kids. Um so, I He's got a good number of kids. Um so, I He's got a good number of kids. Um so, I mean you saw him say that he was mean you saw him say that he was mean you saw him say that he was convicted about that and I had actually convicted about that and I had actually convicted about that and I had actually first heard Ben talk about that on a first heard Ben talk about that on a first heard Ben talk about that on a different interview different interview different interview and it was in a month where including and it was in a month where including and it was in a month where including seeing Ben, I had exceeded that number.

seeing Ben, I had exceeded that number. seeing Ben, I had exceeded that number. And it felt like too much. And it felt like too much. And it felt like too much. And so, that is And so, that is And so, that is like you said, not biblically binding, like you said, not biblically binding, like you said, not biblically binding, but just a kind of wisdom that you need but just a kind of wisdom that you need but just a kind of wisdom that you need from somebody who's ahead of you from somebody who's ahead of you from somebody who's ahead of you in life and is looking back and in life and is looking back and in life and is looking back and understanding what what matters and understanding what what matters and understanding what what matters and um so that stuff really stood out to me um so that stuff really stood out to me um so that stuff really stood out to me and it's interesting he didn't mention and it's interesting he didn't mention and it's interesting he didn't mention some of the other parenting advice um some of the other parenting advice um some of the other parenting advice um his Vanishing American Adult book was his Vanishing American Adult book was his Vanishing American Adult book was one that had a significant influence on one that had a significant influence on one that had a significant influence on my wife and and me and and how we and my wife and and me and and how we and my wife and and me and and how we and how we parent our children and that how we parent our children and that how we parent our children and that involves some of the same advice, but involves some of the same advice, but involves some of the same advice, but especially involved uh comments about especially involved uh comments about especially involved uh comments about doing hard things together and not doing hard things together and not doing hard things together and not having everything figured out and having everything figured out and having everything figured out and playing outside and developing playing outside and developing playing outside and developing resilience, a lot of stuff that we hear resilience, a lot of stuff that we hear resilience, a lot of stuff that we hear from Jonathan Haidt and and other other from Jonathan Haidt and and other other from Jonathan Haidt and and other other colleagues there and and we did move colleagues there and and we did move colleagues there and and we did move into a walkable neighborhood. We did into a walkable neighborhood. We did into a walkable neighborhood. We did move to a town um that was years before move to a town um that was years before move to a town um that was years before even before I knew Ben, but to a town even before I knew Ben, but to a town even before I knew Ben, but to a town where my wife's family lives. So um cuz where my wife's family lives. So um cuz where my wife's family lives. So um cuz I grew up around my cousins and my aunts I grew up around my cousins and my aunts I grew up around my cousins and my aunts and uncles on a farm like Ben did. Of and uncles on a farm like Ben did. Of and uncles on a farm like Ben did. Of course mine still have to go to his course mine still have to go to his course mine still have to go to his Nebraska.

Nebraska. Nebraska. Um yeah, I've already adopted a lot of Um yeah, I've already adopted a lot of Um yeah, I've already adopted a lot of that advice chastened by some of that that advice chastened by some of that that advice chastened by some of that advice, but just grateful of his advice, but just grateful of his advice, but just grateful of his willingness willingness willingness now because like he said in the now because like he said in the now because like he said in the interview there is something holy and interview there is something holy and interview there is something holy and sacred sacred sacred about the words of somebody who's on the about the words of somebody who's on the about the words of somebody who's on the doorstep of eternity. doorstep of eternity. doorstep of eternity. And we do listen. And we do listen. And we do listen. And we do want to look back and say if And we do want to look back and say if And we do want to look back and say if the Lord gives me not just another 10 to the Lord gives me not just another 10 to the Lord gives me not just another 10 to Ben's, but another 30 or whatever Ben's, but another 30 or whatever Ben's, but another 30 or whatever um I want to live it well. um I want to live it well. um I want to live it well. And um so that advice is And um so that advice is And um so that advice is things I'll always remember and do my things I'll always remember and do my things I'll always remember and do my best to implement. best to implement. best to implement. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Yeah, that's good. I have one more question for you. I have one more question for you. I have one more question for you. Um last week I talked to Mike Kruger Um last week I talked to Mike Kruger Um last week I talked to Mike Kruger about another of Roth's interviews, one about another of Roth's interviews, one about another of Roth's interviews, one with Bart Ehrman. with Bart Ehrman. with Bart Ehrman. >> It's the podcast. >> It's the podcast. >> It's the podcast. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was sure interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was sure interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was sure interesting. Mike's super interesting. Um Bart is a Mike's super interesting. Um Bart is a Mike's super interesting. Um Bart is a New New scholar and he lost his faith he New New scholar and he lost his faith he New New scholar and he lost his faith he said not from an intellectual reason, said not from an intellectual reason, said not from an intellectual reason, but because he just couldn't square a but because he just couldn't square a but because he just couldn't square a good God with the suffering that he saw good God with the suffering that he saw good God with the suffering that he saw in the world.

in the world. in the world. Um and I and it was interesting cuz Um and I and it was interesting cuz Um and I and it was interesting cuz because Ross asked Ben the same because Ross asked Ben the same because Ross asked Ben the same question, Ben clearly suffering greatly. question, Ben clearly suffering greatly. question, Ben clearly suffering greatly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Are you losing your faith? Does this >> Are you losing your faith? Does this >> Are you losing your faith? Does this make your faith wobble at all? Um and make your faith wobble at all? Um and make your faith wobble at all? Um and Ben was really clear and like I I do so Ben was really clear and like I I do so Ben was really clear and like I I do so believe in the sovereignty of God and believe in the sovereignty of God and believe in the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God and you could almost the goodness of God and you could almost the goodness of God and you could almost feel in the way he said it how strong feel in the way he said it how strong feel in the way he said it how strong that was. And how foundational that was. that was. And how foundational that was. that was. And how foundational that was. But what struck me, I do a lot of But what struck me, I do a lot of But what struck me, I do a lot of reporting and I talk to a lot of people reporting and I talk to a lot of people reporting and I talk to a lot of people who have been in hard situations. who have been in hard situations. who have been in hard situations. I don't know Colin that it's the person I don't know Colin that it's the person I don't know Colin that it's the person in the suffering whose faith wiggles as in the suffering whose faith wiggles as in the suffering whose faith wiggles as much so much as it is the people much so much as it is the people much so much as it is the people watching the suffering because they're watching the suffering because they're watching the suffering because they're imagining like how what God why would imagining like how what God why would imagining like how what God why would this happen, right? So it's really the this happen, right? So it's really the this happen, right? So it's really the people around you. people around you. people around you. Um because the person in it is being Um because the person in it is being Um because the person in it is being sustained by God. They can feel the sustained by God. They can feel the sustained by God. They can feel the faithfulness of God and in ways that faithfulness of God and in ways that faithfulness of God and in ways that people around them think, "Wow, if I was people around them think, "Wow, if I was people around them think, "Wow, if I was in your situation I would be a wreck." in your situation I would be a wreck." in your situation I would be a wreck." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You are a little bit more in that >> You are a little bit more in that >> You are a little bit more in that situation, not the person with the situation, not the person with the situation, not the person with the cancer, but watching. And you also cancer, but watching. And you also cancer, but watching. And you also watched Tim Tim Keller, another one of watched Tim Tim Keller, another one of watched Tim Tim Keller, another one of your dear dear friends, go through the your dear dear friends, go through the your dear dear friends, go through the same same same >> Same process.

>> Same process. >> Same process. >> process a couple years ago. >> process a couple years ago. >> process a couple years ago. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, as a person who's watching, one step >> So, as a person who's watching, one step >> So, as a person who's watching, one step removed, people suffer, removed, people suffer, removed, people suffer, how do you think through a good God in a how do you think through a good God in a how do you think through a good God in a in a world full of evil? in a world full of evil? in a world full of evil? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, Well, Well, um um um I did actually have to write a whole I did actually have to write a whole I did actually have to write a whole book to be able to process through this book to be able to process through this book to be able to process through this where's the God in a world with so much where's the God in a world with so much where's the God in a world with so much suffering or so much evil. Um suffering or so much evil. Um suffering or so much evil. Um Yeah, I I Yeah, I I Yeah, I I you know, I teach apologetics and I you know, I teach apologetics and I you know, I teach apologetics and I teach preachers to address the hardest teach preachers to address the hardest teach preachers to address the hardest objection that they find to the objection that they find to the objection that they find to the Christian faith. Christian faith. Christian faith. And the one that I go to is this And the one that I go to is this And the one that I go to is this question about suffering. question about suffering. question about suffering. Um specifically I mean it comes up all Um specifically I mean it comes up all Um specifically I mean it comes up all over the place in every day everybody's over the place in every day everybody's over the place in every day everybody's lives. lives. lives. Um but it also comes up in significant Um but it also comes up in significant Um but it also comes up in significant ways in in literature and in history. Um ways in in literature and in history. Um ways in in literature and in history. Um I I talked about Elie Wiesel's night I I talked about Elie Wiesel's night I I talked about Elie Wiesel's night which which deals with this problem. which which deals with this problem. which which deals with this problem. Then I connected it back to um Fyodor Then I connected it back to um Fyodor Then I connected it back to um Fyodor Dostoevsky's Dostoevsky's Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov in the 19th century Brothers Karamazov in the 19th century Brothers Karamazov in the 19th century where he deals with the exact same where he deals with the exact same where he deals with the exact same problem in there. So, I had to spend an problem in there. So, I had to spend an problem in there. So, I had to spend an an entire an entire an entire book trying to work out that question book trying to work out that question book trying to work out that question just for myself and and for others.

just for myself and and for others. just for myself and and for others. And part of the answer is very plainly And part of the answer is very plainly And part of the answer is very plainly where Ben goes and where Tim went, where Ben goes and where Tim went, where Ben goes and where Tim went, which was the the way actually in that which was the the way actually in that which was the the way actually in that in that suffering like you said, those in that suffering like you said, those in that suffering like you said, those those people are drawn to their father. those people are drawn to their father. those people are drawn to their father. They're drawn through prayer. Um Ben They're drawn through prayer. Um Ben They're drawn through prayer. Um Ben Sasse says, "I don't I wouldn't wish Sasse says, "I don't I wouldn't wish Sasse says, "I don't I wouldn't wish pancreatic cancer on myself or anybody pancreatic cancer on myself or anybody pancreatic cancer on myself or anybody else, but I wouldn't want to go back else, but I wouldn't want to go back else, but I wouldn't want to go back to the kind of I wouldn't want to give to the kind of I wouldn't want to give to the kind of I wouldn't want to give up the kind of spiritual intimacy I feel up the kind of spiritual intimacy I feel up the kind of spiritual intimacy I feel now through this." now through this." now through this." And so, even watching that and seeing And so, even watching that and seeing And so, even watching that and seeing that and then thinking about Christ that and then thinking about Christ that and then thinking about Christ himself in Gethsemane himself in Gethsemane himself in Gethsemane and thinking about him on the cross even and thinking about him on the cross even and thinking about him on the cross even into the agony of of separation or at into the agony of of separation or at into the agony of of separation or at least using the biblical terminology least using the biblical terminology least using the biblical terminology there forsakenness, there forsakenness, there forsakenness, um um um that I mean, that is really at the heart that I mean, that is really at the heart that I mean, that is really at the heart of our our faith. We can't avoid it, but of our our faith. We can't avoid it, but of our our faith. We can't avoid it, but that's also that's the problem, but it's that's also that's the problem, but it's that's also that's the problem, but it's also the solution is the nearness to the also the solution is the nearness to the also the solution is the nearness to the father because the answer there father because the answer there father because the answer there that we we can see is that we we can see is that we we can see is we don't really know why these things we don't really know why these things we don't really know why these things happen in a fallen world, but we do know happen in a fallen world, but we do know happen in a fallen world, but we do know that the father will not forsake any who that the father will not forsake any who that the father will not forsake any who belong to him through his son who was belong to him through his son who was belong to him through his son who was forsaken on our behalf.

forsaken on our behalf. forsaken on our behalf. So, So, So, that's ultimately the answer. But beyond that's ultimately the answer. But beyond that's ultimately the answer. But beyond that, uh that, uh that, uh a lot of it's Ben's approach to life as a lot of it's Ben's approach to life as a lot of it's Ben's approach to life as well. It's not the problem of evil, but well. It's not the problem of evil, but well. It's not the problem of evil, but it's the problem of good. it's the problem of good. it's the problem of good. Meaning that we can't take for granted Meaning that we can't take for granted Meaning that we can't take for granted the the the amazing amount of beautiful and amazing amount of beautiful and amazing amount of beautiful and wonderful things that we do not deserve wonderful things that we do not deserve wonderful things that we do not deserve that seem to be utterly superfluous that seem to be utterly superfluous that seem to be utterly superfluous in this world. And when you have the in this world. And when you have the in this world. And when you have the eyes of faith to be able to see life eyes of faith to be able to see life eyes of faith to be able to see life with gratitude, with gratitude, with gratitude, um then all of a sudden suffering um then all of a sudden suffering um then all of a sudden suffering becomes becomes becomes um um um I guess it takes perspective. I guess it takes perspective. I guess it takes perspective. Because the challenge of theodicy is Because the challenge of theodicy is Because the challenge of theodicy is assuming that everything should go well assuming that everything should go well assuming that everything should go well and that we deserve everything and that we deserve everything and that we deserve everything that we have, which is why the problem that we have, which is why the problem that we have, which is why the problem of theodicy has gotten bigger as the of theodicy has gotten bigger as the of theodicy has gotten bigger as the Western world has become more affluent. Western world has become more affluent. Western world has become more affluent. We have more problems with God now than We have more problems with God now than We have more problems with God now than when we had fewer when we had fewer when we had fewer opportunities and ways to deal opportunities and ways to deal opportunities and ways to deal with God with with the problems in the with God with with the problems in the with God with with the problems in the world.

world. world. So, isn't that interesting? But it it's So, isn't that interesting? But it it's So, isn't that interesting? But it it's because of our change in assumptions. because of our change in assumptions. because of our change in assumptions. And that's why whether you're C.S. Lewis And that's why whether you're C.S. Lewis And that's why whether you're C.S. Lewis talking about this, talking about this, talking about this, long before he ever suffered intense long before he ever suffered intense long before he ever suffered intense pain himself, specifically through his pain himself, specifically through his pain himself, specifically through his wife. wife. wife. Um I mean, he had to rewrite everything, Um I mean, he had to rewrite everything, Um I mean, he had to rewrite everything, right? After watching what happened to right? After watching what happened to right? After watching what happened to his wife. This is the man who wrote The his wife. This is the man who wrote The his wife. This is the man who wrote The Problem of Pain in 1940 and then later Problem of Pain in 1940 and then later Problem of Pain in 1940 and then later had to revise not necessarily his had to revise not necessarily his had to revise not necessarily his arguments but his experience of it and arguments but his experience of it and arguments but his experience of it and watching her. watching her. watching her. But Lewis's argument, when you look at But Lewis's argument, when you look at But Lewis's argument, when you look at throughout his writings but Learning in throughout his writings but Learning in throughout his writings but Learning in Wartime would be a good example of this, Wartime would be a good example of this, Wartime would be a good example of this, The Screwtape Letters, he comes back to The Screwtape Letters, he comes back to The Screwtape Letters, he comes back to this. And then Ben Sasse comes back to this. And then Ben Sasse comes back to this. And then Ben Sasse comes back to it as well. Um it as well. Um it as well. Um we're all going to die. we're all going to die. we're all going to die. There isn't really anything different There isn't really anything different There isn't really anything different about his situation except that he's about his situation except that he's about his situation except that he's forced to think about it and forced to forced to think about it and forced to forced to think about it and forced to prepare for it. prepare for it. prepare for it. It's letter five, Screwtape Letters. It's letter five, Screwtape Letters. It's letter five, Screwtape Letters. It's exact thing Lewis says. It's exact thing Lewis says. It's exact thing Lewis says. The demon is saying, "Wait a minute.

The demon is saying, "Wait a minute. The demon is saying, "Wait a minute. Don't be Don't be happy about this war. Don't be Don't be happy about this war. Don't be Don't be happy about this war. This is making everybody think about This is making everybody think about This is making everybody think about what is inevitable in life, that they're what is inevitable in life, that they're what is inevitable in life, that they're going to die. Our whole point is to give going to die. Our whole point is to give going to die. Our whole point is to give them a not think about what's going to them a not think about what's going to them a not think about what's going to happen in life. To to you know, to to happen in life. To to you know, to to happen in life. To to you know, to to live in live in live in you know, live oblivious to this. you know, live oblivious to this. you know, live oblivious to this. So, that's the perspective that Sass is So, that's the perspective that Sass is So, that's the perspective that Sass is bringing in here, and that's I think bringing in here, and that's I think bringing in here, and that's I think ultimately, as we watch, we're ultimately, as we watch, we're ultimately, as we watch, we're fascinated because we think somehow, fascinated because we think somehow, fascinated because we think somehow, maybe, maybe, maybe, we can avoid it. we can avoid it. we can avoid it. We can't. So, the opposite view is we're We can't. So, the opposite view is we're We can't. So, the opposite view is we're more like him, more like him, more like him, and we should also be likewise preparing and we should also be likewise preparing and we should also be likewise preparing for death, as opposed to unlike him for death, as opposed to unlike him for death, as opposed to unlike him in the extraordinary nature of getting in the extraordinary nature of getting in the extraordinary nature of getting this horrible pain. Granted, he had this horrible pain. Granted, he had this horrible pain. Granted, he had cancer at age 54. cancer at age 54. cancer at age 54. Um so, that's a couple ways to process Um so, that's a couple ways to process Um so, that's a couple ways to process it, not only looking at the the love of it, not only looking at the the love of it, not only looking at the the love of the Father, the Father, the Father, but then also but then also but then also to consider the problem of to consider the problem of to consider the problem of of of good and the opportunity that this of of good and the opportunity that this of of good and the opportunity that this provides for us to be able to again, not provides for us to be able to again, not provides for us to be able to again, not only draw near to the Father, but also only draw near to the Father, but also only draw near to the Father, but also to conclude or to to prepare for to conclude or to to prepare for to conclude or to to prepare for the inevitable.

the inevitable. the inevitable. >> Seems like it makes it so important for >> Seems like it makes it so important for >> Seems like it makes it so important for us to live our suffering, maybe not as us to live our suffering, maybe not as us to live our suffering, maybe not as publicly as Ben is, publicly as Ben is, publicly as Ben is, um but whatever your circle is, with um but whatever your circle is, with um but whatever your circle is, with your church, your friends, your your church, your friends, your your church, your friends, your neighborhood, um not that you need to, neighborhood, um not that you need to, neighborhood, um not that you need to, you know, walk outside and share all the you know, walk outside and share all the you know, walk outside and share all the parts of your suffering, that's not parts of your suffering, that's not parts of your suffering, that's not appropriate, but just when you're going appropriate, but just when you're going appropriate, but just when you're going through something hard to be faithful through something hard to be faithful through something hard to be faithful and to and to and to um um um be clear that God is still be clear that God is still be clear that God is still is still holding you and is still good is still holding you and is still good is still holding you and is still good and is still sovereign. and is still sovereign. and is still sovereign. Um Um Um >> Yeah. That >> Yeah. That >> Yeah. That absolutely, and and um absolutely, and and um absolutely, and and um I don't know, I look around, Sarah, and I don't know, I look around, Sarah, and I don't know, I look around, Sarah, and seems like I know countless people going seems like I know countless people going seems like I know countless people going through this kind of situation. through this kind of situation. through this kind of situation. And I just keep thinking, And I just keep thinking, And I just keep thinking, praise God because we do have a praise God because we do have a praise God because we do have a perspective on suffering. perspective on suffering. perspective on suffering. And we have a community in the body of And we have a community in the body of And we have a community in the body of Christ. Christ. Christ. And those two things make make all the And those two things make make all the And those two things make make all the difference in the world in these difference in the world in these difference in the world in these situations because situations because situations because nobody can avoid it. nobody can avoid it. nobody can avoid it. And God And God And God God cares for us in it. God cares for us in it. God cares for us in it. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's so encouraging um to hear him And it's so encouraging um to hear him And it's so encouraging um to hear him say those things you know are true and say those things you know are true and say those things you know are true and to and to feel his strength in them and to and to feel his strength in them and to and to feel his strength in them and and feel like it is true. It's real. Um, and feel like it is true. It's real. Um, and feel like it is true. It's real. Um, it and it will hold. The center holds it and it will hold. The center holds it and it will hold. The center holds when everything is falling apart. So, when everything is falling apart. So, when everything is falling apart. So, >> that's why Ross that's why >> that's why Ross that's why >> that's why Ross that's why Ross cried. Ross cried. Ross cried. Because you could see that and that's Because you could see that and that's Because you could see that and that's why that interview is so emotional. why that interview is so emotional. why that interview is so emotional. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's good.