Siblings, Young and Old [The Deep Dish - Ep. 27]

When you all were raising your children, When you all were raising your children, did you let them fight? I mean, like did you let them fight? I mean, like did you let them fight? I mean, like like that's a joke question, right? But like that's a joke question, right? But like that's a joke question, right? But let's [laughter] let's [laughter] let's [laughter] >> Did you Did you say, "Okay, here's your >> Did you Did you say, "Okay, here's your >> Did you Did you say, "Okay, here's your time." time." time." >> I said, "It's fighting time, children." >> I said, "It's fighting time, children." >> I said, "It's fighting time, children." [laughter] Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Doctor here with truths. I am Courtney Doctor here with truths. I am Courtney Doctor here with my friend and co-host Melissa Krueger. my friend and co-host Melissa Krueger. my friend and co-host Melissa Krueger. And we are joined today by our good And we are joined today by our good And we are joined today by our good friend Jen Wilin. Welcome, Jen. Hi, friend Jen Wilin. Welcome, Jen. Hi, friend Jen Wilin. Welcome, Jen. Hi, guys. Yay. We're so glad to have you guys. Yay. We're so glad to have you guys. Yay. We're so glad to have you back. Um, and today we are going to be back. Um, and today we are going to be back. Um, and today we are going to be talking about fostering good sibling talking about fostering good sibling talking about fostering good sibling relationships. Um, and we're going to do relationships. Um, and we're going to do relationships. Um, and we're going to do it from both sides of the coin, so to it from both sides of the coin, so to it from both sides of the coin, so to speak. We're going to talk about it with speak. We're going to talk about it with speak. We're going to talk about it with the children we may be raising, how to the children we may be raising, how to the children we may be raising, how to foster good relationships with them, but foster good relationships with them, but foster good relationships with them, but also the siblings we grew up with. How also the siblings we grew up with. How also the siblings we grew up with. How do we foster good relationships do we foster good relationships do we foster good relationships um in the families that we were born in um in the families that we were born in um in the families that we were born in and the families that we are currently and the families that we are currently and the families that we are currently maybe producing? [laughter] How do you maybe producing? [laughter] How do you maybe producing? [laughter] How do you say that? I don't know. Currently say that? I don't know. Currently say that? I don't know. Currently involved with um but let me start by involved with um but let me start by involved with um but let me start by saying [laughter] saying [laughter] saying [laughter] what what was the family dynamic that what what was the family dynamic that what what was the family dynamic that you grow grew up in? How many siblings you grow grew up in? How many siblings you grow grew up in? How many siblings did you have? Jim, we'll start with you did you have? Jim, we'll start with you did you have? Jim, we'll start with you and then Courtney. We'll all we'll all and then Courtney. We'll all we'll all and then Courtney. We'll all we'll all share. Okay. So, I grew up in a blended share. Okay. So, I grew up in a blended share. Okay. So, I grew up in a blended family. I have two older brothers and family. I have two older brothers and family. I have two older brothers and then I have two younger stepbros and I'm

then I have two younger stepbros and I'm then I have two younger stepbros and I'm the only girl anyway you cut it. So, the only girl anyway you cut it. So, the only girl anyway you cut it. So, that was a big strategic move. I can that was a big strategic move. I can that was a big strategic move. I can also play the youngest child card in my also play the youngest child card in my also play the youngest child card in my uh biological family, but I grew up with uh biological family, but I grew up with uh biological family, but I grew up with um the four brothers. So, um, yeah, we um the four brothers. So, um, yeah, we um the four brothers. So, um, yeah, we were like I lived about 10 minutes, um, were like I lived about 10 minutes, um, were like I lived about 10 minutes, um, from my dad. And so, tons of time spent from my dad. And so, tons of time spent from my dad. And so, tons of time spent together, um, even though we were in two together, um, even though we were in two together, um, even though we were in two different houses for some of that. And different houses for some of that. And different houses for some of that. And so, we I don't call them step brothers, so, we I don't call them step brothers, so, we I don't call them step brothers, I call them brothers. And, um, do you I call them brothers. And, um, do you I call them brothers. And, um, do you want to know like the quality of those want to know like the quality of those want to know like the quality of those relationships when we were growing up? relationships when we were growing up? relationships when we were growing up? Is that what we're dulging at this Is that what we're dulging at this Is that what we're dulging at this point? [laughter] >> I've got assumptions that you were >> I've got assumptions that you were probably tortured a good bit, but that's probably tortured a good bit, but that's probably tortured a good bit, but that's >> Yes. Yes. and I was tortured a great >> Yes. Yes. and I was tortured a great >> Yes. Yes. and I was tortured a great deal and I responded with verbal uh deal and I responded with verbal uh deal and I responded with verbal uh abuse since I did not have physical abuse since I did not have physical abuse since I did not have physical strength. So that you know super healthy strength. So that you know super healthy strength. So that you know super healthy and um yeah I would describe our and um yeah I would describe our and um yeah I would describe our relationships as loving but adversarial relationships as loving but adversarial relationships as loving but adversarial in childhood and um it was not until in childhood and um it was not until in childhood and um it was not until adulthood that I would say we really and adulthood that I would say we really and adulthood that I would say we really and that's not to say that like we were that's not to say that like we were that's not to say that like we were always fighting but that that was always fighting but that that was always fighting but that that was definitely a a a component that figured definitely a a a component that figured definitely a a a component that figured heavily into the relationship. This is heavily into the relationship. This is heavily into the relationship. This is one of those moments when you realize, one of those moments when you realize, one of those moments when you realize, oh, hardship produces Jen's ability with oh, hardship produces Jen's ability with oh, hardship produces Jen's ability with words. I know. That's what I was words. I know. That's what I was words. I know. That's what I was thinking.

thinking. thinking. >> Well, and that this is a redeemed >> Well, and that this is a redeemed >> Well, and that this is a redeemed version. version. version. >> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter] But I'm >> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter] But I'm >> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter] But I'm just saying you you learned you learned just saying you you learned you learned just saying you you learned you learned how to do it probably pretty young. So, how to do it probably pretty young. So, how to do it probably pretty young. So, >> what about you, Courtney? >> what about you, Courtney? >> what about you, Courtney? >> Well, I want to ask Jen real quick. >> Well, I want to ask Jen real quick. >> Well, I want to ask Jen real quick. What's the age gap from the oldest to What's the age gap from the oldest to What's the age gap from the oldest to the youngest? the youngest? the youngest? >> Yeah. So, my um my brother Chris is >> Yeah. So, my um my brother Chris is >> Yeah. So, my um my brother Chris is three and a half years older than me. My three and a half years older than me. My three and a half years older than me. My brother Pete is two and a half years brother Pete is two and a half years brother Pete is two and a half years older. So they're only um they're less older. So they're only um they're less older. So they're only um they're less than 12 months apart. than 12 months apart. than 12 months apart. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Um and so they grew up, you know, super >> Um and so they grew up, you know, super >> Um and so they grew up, you know, super close. And then um my two younger close. And then um my two younger close. And then um my two younger brothers are four and five years younger brothers are four and five years younger brothers are four and five years younger than me. than me. than me. >> Okay. Okay. So you guys are all pretty >> Okay. Okay. So you guys are all pretty >> Okay. Okay. So you guys are all pretty close in there together. Yeah, close in there together. Yeah, close in there together. Yeah, >> that's pretty fun. I just have one >> that's pretty fun. I just have one >> that's pretty fun. I just have one brother two years older. Um brother two years older. Um brother two years older. Um Yeah. I mean I don't know what else to Yeah. I mean I don't know what else to Yeah. I mean I don't know what else to [laughter] say. That's like so boring. [laughter] say. That's like so boring. [laughter] say. That's like so boring. That's that's what I got. That's it. That's that's what I got. That's it. That's that's what I got. That's it. Yep. I'm the same level of boredom. one Yep. I'm the same level of boredom. one Yep. I'm the same level of boredom. one brother, three years older, brother, three years older, brother, three years older, >> and that's that's it. >> and that's that's it. >> and that's that's it. >> That's what we got. >> That's what we got. >> That's what we got. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Did you guys grow up like best buddies >> Did you guys grow up like best buddies >> Did you guys grow up like best buddies or or or >> No, we fought a lot. Uh and and >> No, we fought a lot. Uh and and >> No, we fought a lot. Uh and and physically, I remember my mom saying one physically, I remember my mom saying one physically, I remember my mom saying one point, she goes, "Just don't hit her in point, she goes, "Just don't hit her in point, she goes, "Just don't hit her in the face." And I thought, "That's my the face." And I thought, "That's my the face." And I thought, "That's my last line of defense, just don't hit her last line of defense, just don't hit her last line of defense, just don't hit her in the face." So, I had a lot of um you in the face." So, I had a lot of um you in the face." So, I had a lot of um you know, arm a lot of arm bruises. That was know, arm a lot of arm bruises. That was know, arm a lot of arm bruises. That was that was the the punch was was in the that was the the punch was was in the that was the the punch was was in the arm. I mean it Melissa's space. Did you arm. I mean it Melissa's space. Did you arm. I mean it Melissa's space. Did you and your brother not fight? We did and your brother not fight? We did and your brother not fight? We did probably. We did. We had a mixed

probably. We did. We had a mixed probably. We did. We had a mixed relationship, you know, like we also relationship, you know, like we also relationship, you know, like we also like I can remember um dancing with him like I can remember um dancing with him like I can remember um dancing with him like when my parents would go out like like when my parents would go out like like when my parents would go out like we would put on music and dance we would put on music and dance we would put on music and dance together. So we did that too. Like I together. So we did that too. Like I together. So we did that too. Like I mean like we did not do that. That's mean like we did not do that. That's mean like we did not do that. That's right. right. right. >> Yeah. I know what >> Yeah. I know what >> Yeah. I know what >> when there were no parents around, I got >> when there were no parents around, I got >> when there were no parents around, I got locked in closets and locked out of the locked in closets and locked out of the locked in closets and locked out of the house or Yeah. [laughter] house or Yeah. [laughter] house or Yeah. [laughter] >> When my brother started driving, he is a >> When my brother started driving, he is a >> When my brother started driving, he is a music buff. I to this day, if I hear music buff. I to this day, if I hear music buff. I to this day, if I hear just a lyric, I can text him and say, just a lyric, I can text him and say, just a lyric, I can text him and say, "What song is this?" And I get not only "What song is this?" And I get not only "What song is this?" And I get not only the song, but also the reason the song the song, but also the reason the song the song, but also the reason the song was written and the different artists was written and the different artists was written and the different artists that were involved in it. He's just he's that were involved in it. He's just he's that were involved in it. He's just he's very musically inclined. And on the way very musically inclined. And on the way very musically inclined. And on the way to school, once he started driving, he to school, once he started driving, he to school, once he started driving, he would ask me questions about the song on would ask me questions about the song on would ask me questions about the song on the radio and if I couldn't answer, he the radio and if I couldn't answer, he the radio and if I couldn't answer, he would kick me out and I'd have to walk would kick me out and I'd have to walk would kick me out and I'd have to walk to school. It wasn't far, but it to school. It wasn't far, but it to school. It wasn't far, but it increased my music knowledge [laughter] increased my music knowledge [laughter] increased my music knowledge [laughter] rapidly. rapidly. rapidly. My gosh. What are your This is kind of My gosh. What are your This is kind of My gosh. What are your This is kind of interesting. What are your brother's interesting. What are your brother's interesting. What are your brother's professions? Like, who did they turn professions? Like, who did they turn professions? Like, who did they turn into? into? into? >> Oh, my brother's great. He's a He's a >> Oh, my brother's great. He's a He's a >> Oh, my brother's great. He's a He's a salesman. He's worked in the salesman. He's worked in the salesman. He's worked in the telecommunications industry. Uh he's telecommunications industry. Uh he's telecommunications industry. Uh he's lived He's fluent in Chinese. He's lived lived He's fluent in Chinese. He's lived lived He's fluent in Chinese. He's lived internationally several times. Um, yeah, internationally several times. Um, yeah, internationally several times. Um, yeah, I don't think he punches anybody I don't think he punches anybody I don't think he punches anybody anymore, [laughter] anymore, [laughter] anymore, [laughter] >> but he still loves music. I I didn't >> but he still loves music. I I didn't >> but he still loves music. I I didn't mention that my brother also did have mention that my brother also did have mention that my brother also did have like the good twin brother that he would like the good twin brother that he would like the good twin brother that he would pretend to be. So, when he had been mean pretend to be. So, when he had been mean pretend to be. So, when he had been mean to me, he would be turn into Bobby. I to me, he would be turn into Bobby. I to me, he would be turn into Bobby. I was debating whether to mention this was debating whether to mention this was debating whether to mention this cuz, you know, [laughter] cuz, you know, [laughter] cuz, you know, [laughter] and he'd be like, "I'll go get Bobby."

and he'd be like, "I'll go get Bobby." and he'd be like, "I'll go get Bobby." And some for some reason I played along And some for some reason I played along And some for some reason I played along just so he'd start being nice to me so I just so he'd start being nice to me so I just so he'd start being nice to me so I wouldn't go tell on him and all of those wouldn't go tell on him and all of those wouldn't go tell on him and all of those things. But he's a lawyer and I was things. But he's a lawyer and I was things. But he's a lawyer and I was like, "Huh, that fits, right?" Like, you like, "Huh, that fits, right?" Like, you like, "Huh, that fits, right?" Like, you know, you can you can No, he he's know, you can you can No, he he's know, you can you can No, he he's studied law. He was in politics for a studied law. He was in politics for a studied law. He was in politics for a while in the this in the state of North while in the this in the state of North while in the this in the state of North Carolina. And actually now he owns a Carolina. And actually now he owns a Carolina. And actually now he owns a chicken franchise. chicken franchise. chicken franchise. >> Oh my gosh, >> Oh my gosh, >> Oh my gosh, >> I love it. But not the one I love. We >> I love it. But not the one I love. We >> I love it. But not the one I love. We all know there's one I love over there. all know there's one I love over there. all know there's one I love over there. But um but what this just starting off But um but what this just starting off But um but what this just starting off like this just lets us know that a like this just lets us know that a like this just lets us know that a little bit of sibling conflict is a not little bit of sibling conflict is a not little bit of sibling conflict is a not going to just kill the whole sibling going to just kill the whole sibling going to just kill the whole sibling game. And it's pretty normal. Pretty game. And it's pretty normal. Pretty game. And it's pretty normal. Pretty normal. normal. normal. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, when you all were >> Yeah. Okay. Well, when you all were >> Yeah. Okay. Well, when you all were raising your children, did you let them raising your children, did you let them raising your children, did you let them fight? I mean, like like that's a joke fight? I mean, like like that's a joke fight? I mean, like like that's a joke question, right? But let's [laughter] question, right? But let's [laughter] question, right? But let's [laughter] did you did you say, "Okay, here's your did you did you say, "Okay, here's your did you did you say, "Okay, here's your time." time." time." >> I said, "It's fighting time, [laughter] >> I said, "It's fighting time, [laughter] >> I said, "It's fighting time, [laughter] children. Here's the ring. children. Here's the ring. children. Here's the ring. >> This is what my dad gave my brother and >> This is what my dad gave my brother and >> This is what my dad gave my brother and I boxing gloves when we were little. He I boxing gloves when we were little. He I boxing gloves when we were little. He he gave us each a set. So yeah, I guess he gave us each a set. So yeah, I guess he gave us each a set. So yeah, I guess they let us. But Jen, what about you they let us. But Jen, what about you they let us. But Jen, what about you raising your kids?

raising your kids? raising your kids? >> So I would say that there I I felt like >> So I would say that there I I felt like >> So I would say that there I I felt like there was a certain um amount of letting there was a certain um amount of letting there was a certain um amount of letting them work it out on their own that them work it out on their own that them work it out on their own that needed to happen. But um the standard needed to happen. But um the standard needed to happen. But um the standard was not, hey, the way you solve your was not, hey, the way you solve your was not, hey, the way you solve your problems is by fighting. Um, but there's problems is by fighting. Um, but there's problems is by fighting. Um, but there's a recognition that the way that you a recognition that the way that you a recognition that the way that you learn that the standard is better is by learn that the standard is better is by learn that the standard is better is by having some fights. And so, um, I tried having some fights. And so, um, I tried having some fights. And so, um, I tried to be handsoff until things took a turn to be handsoff until things took a turn to be handsoff until things took a turn that was either dangerous or just so, that was either dangerous or just so, that was either dangerous or just so, uh, disrespectful that it was no longer, uh, disrespectful that it was no longer, uh, disrespectful that it was no longer, you know, a quote a fair fight or a you know, a quote a fair fight or a you know, a quote a fair fight or a fight that was going to lead to anything fight that was going to lead to anything fight that was going to lead to anything productive. And um I would say that's productive. And um I would say that's productive. And um I would say that's pretty much the way that and and I hope pretty much the way that and and I hope pretty much the way that and and I hope that they you know a lot of that has to that they you know a lot of that has to that they you know a lot of that has to do with appealing to them and being like do with appealing to them and being like do with appealing to them and being like hey do dad and I fight like this you hey do dad and I fight like this you hey do dad and I fight like this you know like do you see dad and I know like do you see dad and I know like do you see dad and I interacting this way? And in our case interacting this way? And in our case interacting this way? And in our case like Jeff and I you know forget to have like Jeff and I you know forget to have like Jeff and I you know forget to have fights about things we probably should. fights about things we probably should. fights about things we probably should. So they were they didn't have a So they were they didn't have a So they were they didn't have a reference point of coming from us of we reference point of coming from us of we reference point of coming from us of we should we should keep escalating things.

should we should keep escalating things. should we should keep escalating things. >> Yeah. I think part of what played into >> Yeah. I think part of what played into >> Yeah. I think part of what played into our family dynamics when my kids were our family dynamics when my kids were our family dynamics when my kids were young is I have two boys and then two young is I have two boys and then two young is I have two boys and then two girls. And so the the genders are right girls. And so the the genders are right girls. And so the the genders are right next to each other. And so the fighting next to each other. And so the fighting next to each other. And so the fighting looked very different. With the boys it looked very different. With the boys it looked very different. With the boys it was very physical. With the girls it was was very physical. With the girls it was was very physical. With the girls it was more verbal, emotional. Um and so more verbal, emotional. Um and so more verbal, emotional. Um and so sometimes it's easier to catch the sometimes it's easier to catch the sometimes it's easier to catch the physical and it's a little bit easier to physical and it's a little bit easier to physical and it's a little bit easier to maybe get a grip on. Um so yeah, let maybe get a grip on. Um so yeah, let maybe get a grip on. Um so yeah, let them know but it was part of it. And so, them know but it was part of it. And so, them know but it was part of it. And so, how do you how do you speak into it in how do you how do you speak into it in how do you how do you speak into it in in the moment? in the moment? in the moment? >> Well, in the moment, then how did you >> Well, in the moment, then how did you >> Well, in the moment, then how did you teach conflict resolution? Like, all teach conflict resolution? Like, all teach conflict resolution? Like, all kids are going to fight. I mean, we're kids are going to fight. I mean, we're kids are going to fight. I mean, we're humans. Like, they're going to live next humans. Like, they're going to live next humans. Like, they're going to live next to each other. Someone's going to take to each other. Someone's going to take to each other. Someone's going to take someone's LA blanket, whatever you someone's LA blanket, whatever you someone's LA blanket, whatever you [laughter] call it, and it's going to be [laughter] call it, and it's going to be [laughter] call it, and it's going to be a nightmare. And so, how in that there a nightmare. And so, how in that there a nightmare. And so, how in that there are going to be healthy ways to deal are going to be healthy ways to deal are going to be healthy ways to deal with that and unhealthy ways to deal with that and unhealthy ways to deal with that and unhealthy ways to deal with that. How did you did you have any with that. How did you did you have any with that. How did you did you have any tricks that you tried to use to tricks that you tried to use to tricks that you tried to use to communicate to them this is how you communicate to them this is how you communicate to them this is how you resolve that conflict better?

resolve that conflict better? resolve that conflict better? >> I think I got some good advice early on. >> I think I got some good advice early on. >> I think I got some good advice early on. There was a piece of advice I got early There was a piece of advice I got early There was a piece of advice I got early on that was helpful and then there was a on that was helpful and then there was a on that was helpful and then there was a piece of advice I wish I had gotten a piece of advice I wish I had gotten a piece of advice I wish I had gotten a lot sooner that was helpful and or a lot sooner that was helpful and or a lot sooner that was helpful and or a trick I would say a way of talking. And trick I would say a way of talking. And trick I would say a way of talking. And so the one that I received early on was so the one that I received early on was so the one that I received early on was it's not your job to be the referee. it's not your job to be the referee. it's not your job to be the referee. Right? So, in whatever way I did step Right? So, in whatever way I did step Right? So, in whatever way I did step in, it wasn't like I'm going to I'm in, it wasn't like I'm going to I'm in, it wasn't like I'm going to I'm going to issue a ruling on how this is going to issue a ruling on how this is going to issue a ruling on how this is going to work out. And of course, so so going to work out. And of course, so so going to work out. And of course, so so much of this has to do with what are the much of this has to do with what are the much of this has to do with what are the ages of the children involved and what's ages of the children involved and what's ages of the children involved and what's the difference in age between the the difference in age between the the difference in age between the children in the conflict because a children in the conflict because a children in the conflict because a 5-year-old who's slugging a 2-year-old 5-year-old who's slugging a 2-year-old 5-year-old who's slugging a 2-year-old is a different conversation than a is a different conversation than a is a different conversation than a 5-year-old and a four-year-old that 5-year-old and a four-year-old that 5-year-old and a four-year-old that can't get along. Um, they have to can't get along. Um, they have to can't get along. Um, they have to recognize the, you know, the different recognize the, you know, the different recognize the, you know, the different roles that they play in the family. Um, roles that they play in the family. Um, roles that they play in the family. Um, but the not being the referee meant that but the not being the referee meant that but the not being the referee meant that if I did jump into the middle of an if I did jump into the middle of an if I did jump into the middle of an argument, it wasn't to issue a verdict. argument, it wasn't to issue a verdict. argument, it wasn't to issue a verdict. It was to help them work toward a It was to help them work toward a It was to help them work toward a solution between the two of them. And solution between the two of them. And solution between the two of them. And then the piece of advice or the trick then the piece of advice or the trick then the piece of advice or the trick that I wish I had gotten earlier in the that I wish I had gotten earlier in the that I wish I had gotten earlier in the parenting game was to stop the two parenting game was to stop the two parenting game was to stop the two asalants and say, "Which one of you is asalants and say, "Which one of you is asalants and say, "Which one of you is being the kindest?" Mhm. Because that being the kindest?" Mhm. Because that being the kindest?" Mhm. Because that reframes it. You know, instead of which reframes it. You know, instead of which reframes it. You know, instead of which of you is being the worst, it's who's of you is being the worst, it's who's of you is being the worst, it's who's setting who's setting the standard for setting who's setting the standard for setting who's setting the standard for being kind here. And you know, it can being kind here. And you know, it can being kind here. And you know, it can almost feel facicious to say it, but almost feel facicious to say it, but almost feel facicious to say it, but it's actually a really good skill for it's actually a really good skill for it's actually a really good skill for kids to learn of like, oh, is my default kids to learn of like, oh, is my default kids to learn of like, oh, is my default how can I get what's coming to me or is

how can I get what's coming to me or is how can I get what's coming to me or is it how can I be kind? it how can I be kind? it how can I be kind? >> Oh, that's good. That's good. >> Oh, that's good. That's good. >> Oh, that's good. That's good. >> And it solved all our problems, >> And it solved all our problems, >> And it solved all our problems, >> right? And then all they fought again. >> right? And then all they fought again. >> right? And then all they fought again. >> Exactly. That's beautiful. That's >> Exactly. That's beautiful. That's >> Exactly. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Wish I had learned that trick beautiful. Wish I had learned that trick beautiful. Wish I had learned that trick earlier, too. Wish my mom. earlier, too. Wish my mom. earlier, too. Wish my mom. >> You're welcome, everyone. You're >> You're welcome, everyone. You're >> You're welcome, everyone. You're welcome, internet, and all of you. Yeah. welcome, internet, and all of you. Yeah. welcome, internet, and all of you. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> I think we uh I followed in my mom's >> I think we uh I followed in my mom's >> I think we uh I followed in my mom's footsteps on this and tried to talk a footsteps on this and tried to talk a footsteps on this and tried to talk a lot about the long game. I remember my lot about the long game. I remember my lot about the long game. I remember my mom sitting my brother and I down and mom sitting my brother and I down and mom sitting my brother and I down and talking a lot about, you know, it's just talking a lot about, you know, it's just talking a lot about, you know, it's just you two. you too or you know friends you two. you too or you know friends you two. you too or you know friends will come and go but this is your will come and go but this is your will come and go but this is your sibling and and you know when you're 80 sibling and and you know when you're 80 sibling and and you know when you're 80 you'll be you know it just like a lot of you'll be you know it just like a lot of you'll be you know it just like a lot of that talk about the long game and I that talk about the long game and I that talk about the long game and I think that that really does help but at think that that really does help but at think that that really does help but at the end of the day too I I keep hearing the end of the day too I I keep hearing the end of the day too I I keep hearing you know kind of on social media and you know kind of on social media and you know kind of on social media and different places now young moms saying different places now young moms saying different places now young moms saying stuff like you know if your child stuff like you know if your child stuff like you know if your child doesn't mean it don't force them to doesn't mean it don't force them to doesn't mean it don't force them to apologize and I'm like wrong apologize and I'm like wrong apologize and I'm like wrong we do not agree with that I'm like, you we do not agree with that I'm like, you we do not agree with that I'm like, you just have to go through the actions. I just have to go through the actions. I just have to go through the actions. I don't care if they're like, sorry, you don't care if they're like, sorry, you don't care if they're like, sorry, you know, yeah, you can say, can you try it know, yeah, you can say, can you try it know, yeah, you can say, can you try it with a little bit more, but you have to with a little bit more, but you have to with a little bit more, but you have to you have to go through the motions, you have to go through the motions, you have to go through the motions, learning to apologize, learning to learning to apologize, learning to learning to apologize, learning to forgive. How how often do we do what's forgive. How how often do we do what's forgive. How how often do we do what's right even when we don't feel it? And so right even when we don't feel it? And so right even when we don't feel it? And so sometimes we have to let our emotions sometimes we have to let our emotions sometimes we have to let our emotions catch up to our actions, but it's still catch up to our actions, but it's still catch up to our actions, but it's still good and right to require the actions.

good and right to require the actions. good and right to require the actions. And so I would say keep the long Go And so I would say keep the long Go And so I would say keep the long Go ahead, John. ahead, John. ahead, John. >> Well, I was going to say children learn >> Well, I was going to say children learn >> Well, I was going to say children learn by doing. Like developmentally, that's by doing. Like developmentally, that's by doing. Like developmentally, that's what's true about them. And I think what's true about them. And I think what's true about them. And I think sometimes there's a tendency for a sometimes there's a tendency for a sometimes there's a tendency for a parent to project an adult uh mentality parent to project an adult uh mentality parent to project an adult uh mentality onto a a childish behavior. Like we onto a a childish behavior. Like we onto a a childish behavior. Like we don't we don't go, "Well, I'm not going don't we don't go, "Well, I'm not going don't we don't go, "Well, I'm not going to train my kid to say please and thank to train my kid to say please and thank to train my kid to say please and thank you until they really mean it." like you you until they really mean it." like you you until they really mean it." like you just know a child needs to get through just know a child needs to get through just know a child needs to get through life understanding how to say please and life understanding how to say please and life understanding how to say please and thank you and so we give them words for thank you and so we give them words for thank you and so we give them words for it before they have the right motive to it before they have the right motive to it before they have the right motive to attach to it and we pray that the Lord attach to it and we pray that the Lord attach to it and we pray that the Lord will develop in them that sense of will develop in them that sense of will develop in them that sense of outward focus that attaches the correct outward focus that attaches the correct outward focus that attaches the correct motive but children by design are are motive but children by design are are motive but children by design are are inwardly focused and they think about inwardly focused and they think about inwardly focused and they think about self first and that's actually kind of a self first and that's actually kind of a self first and that's actually kind of a self-preserv it's a it's a self-preserv it's a it's a self-preserv it's a it's a developmentally appropriate place for developmentally appropriate place for developmentally appropriate place for them to be in because the world is them to be in because the world is them to be in because the world is against children in many ways you know against children in many ways you know against children in many ways you know it's a dangerous place for them uh they it's a dangerous place for them uh they it's a dangerous place for them uh they need to know that everyone's going to need to know that everyone's going to need to know that everyone's going to advocate for what they need. Um, but we advocate for what they need. Um, but we advocate for what they need. Um, but we outgrow that. Maturity is being outgrow that. Maturity is being outgrow that. Maturity is being concerned with the needs of others. Um, concerned with the needs of others. Um, concerned with the needs of others. Um, but we don't wait until that concern is but we don't wait until that concern is but we don't wait until that concern is formed in them to give them a language formed in them to give them a language formed in them to give them a language because by then they will have formed because by then they will have formed because by then they will have formed other language patterns.

other language patterns. other language patterns. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I agree that that ability to ask >> Yeah. I agree that that ability to ask >> Yeah. I agree that that ability to ask them to problem solve how they should them to problem solve how they should them to problem solve how they should have done it. have done it. have done it. >> So let you know because it's going to >> So let you know because it's going to >> So let you know because it's going to show up in in different I I often think show up in in different I I often think show up in in different I I often think even in different genders in different even in different genders in different even in different genders in different ways. like let's say the LA has been ways. like let's say the LA has been ways. like let's say the LA has been taken. [laughter] taken. [laughter] taken. [laughter] >> One child may hit to get it back. >> One child may hit to get it back. >> One child may hit to get it back. Another child may whine to get it back. Another child may whine to get it back. Another child may whine to get it back. >> And so both are wrong. And you know, so >> And so both are wrong. And you know, so >> And so both are wrong. And you know, so the question I would often pose to my the question I would often pose to my the question I would often pose to my kid is what would have been the right kid is what would have been the right kid is what would have been the right thing to do in this situation? thing to do in this situation? thing to do in this situation? >> And that forces them to actually think >> And that forces them to actually think >> And that forces them to actually think and consider. And again, this is going and consider. And again, this is going and consider. And again, this is going to get easier. A two-year-old's probably to get easier. A two-year-old's probably to get easier. A two-year-old's probably not going to be able to do that, but you not going to be able to do that, but you not going to be able to do that, but you know, as they're aging, what would have know, as they're aging, what would have know, as they're aging, what would have been the right way to handle that been the right way to handle that been the right way to handle that situation? What should you have done? situation? What should you have done? situation? What should you have done? >> You know, John, would you please give me >> You know, John, would you please give me >> You know, John, would you please give me my LA Black? That would have been the my LA Black? That would have been the my LA Black? That would have been the right way to ask. You're like, La, right way to ask. You're like, La, right way to ask. You're like, La, that's what that's what the big fight that's what that's what the big fight that's what that's what the big fight was about. You cannot touch someone was about. You cannot touch someone was about. You cannot touch someone else's la. else's la. else's la. >> Is that a blanket?

>> Is that a blanket? >> Is that a blanket? >> Yes, the blanket. Yes. I don't know why >> Yes, the blanket. Yes. I don't know why >> Yes, the blanket. Yes. I don't know why I was called that. I was called that. I was called that. >> But um and the other thing I think is as >> But um and the other thing I think is as >> But um and the other thing I think is as you're studying scripture to me, you you're studying scripture to me, you you're studying scripture to me, you know, with your family, with your kids, know, with your family, with your kids, know, with your family, with your kids, I mean, just study the story of Joseph. I mean, just study the story of Joseph. I mean, just study the story of Joseph. It's in every kid's book, right? And I It's in every kid's book, right? And I It's in every kid's book, right? And I mean, talk about h was it nice for his mean, talk about h was it nice for his mean, talk about h was it nice for his brothers to throw him in the pit? brothers to throw him in the pit? brothers to throw him in the pit? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Nope. Right or wrong? >> Nope. Right or wrong? >> Nope. Right or wrong? >> Like, is it relatable? Yes. Is it right? >> Like, is it relatable? Yes. Is it right? >> Like, is it relatable? Yes. Is it right? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Right. But they're gonna want to be the >> Right. But they're gonna want to be the >> Right. But they're gonna want to be the hero, right? I mean, like they're gonna hero, right? I mean, like they're gonna hero, right? I mean, like they're gonna read the story and start to learn, yeah, read the story and start to learn, yeah, read the story and start to learn, yeah, that's not a great way to behave. And that's not a great way to behave. And that's not a great way to behave. And you know, what should the brothers have you know, what should the brothers have you know, what should the brothers have done in this scenario? And you could done in this scenario? And you could done in this scenario? And you could talk about what's wrong about the talk about what's wrong about the talk about what's wrong about the parenting. Favoritism is not good. I parenting. Favoritism is not good. I parenting. Favoritism is not good. I mean, all that, but there you I just can mean, all that, but there you I just can mean, all that, but there you I just can never overemphasize with our kids never overemphasize with our kids never overemphasize with our kids studying scripture and these stories in studying scripture and these stories in studying scripture and these stories in the Old Testament. What a gift the Lord the Old Testament. What a gift the Lord the Old Testament. What a gift the Lord gave us all these stories because and gave us all these stories because and gave us all these stories because and everyone does stuff wrong in all the everyone does stuff wrong in all the everyone does stuff wrong in all the stories. [laughter] stories. [laughter] stories. [laughter] So, kids love finding the wrong in So, kids love finding the wrong in So, kids love finding the wrong in others.

others. others. >> And so, >> And so, >> And so, >> and also adults. >> and also adults. >> and also adults. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. [laughter] Right. Right. Right. >> Kids of all ages. >> Kids of all ages. >> Kids of all ages. >> Where were we? >> Where were we? >> Where were we? >> Yeah. As soon as you teach them that, >> Yeah. As soon as you teach them that, >> Yeah. As soon as you teach them that, well, you're not talking very nicely to well, you're not talking very nicely to well, you're not talking very nicely to dad, your tone's not really very good dad, your tone's not really very good dad, your tone's not really very good either. I'm like, I know. I know. either. I'm like, I know. I know. either. I'm like, I know. I know. [laughter] Stop. No. I mean, so, but I [laughter] Stop. No. I mean, so, but I [laughter] Stop. No. I mean, so, but I think that is just a helpful place. I I think that is just a helpful place. I I think that is just a helpful place. I I think sometimes we overemphasize think sometimes we overemphasize think sometimes we overemphasize correcting what's wrong and don't teach correcting what's wrong and don't teach correcting what's wrong and don't teach what's right. And so with the kids what's right. And so with the kids what's right. And so with the kids helping teach what's right in a calm helping teach what's right in a calm helping teach what's right in a calm setting can then later in the day when setting can then later in the day when setting can then later in the day when it's a negative setting I think give you it's a negative setting I think give you it's a negative setting I think give you some ammunition to say and that's a some ammunition to say and that's a some ammunition to say and that's a really important thing you just said really important thing you just said really important thing you just said Melissa because I think so much of this Melissa because I think so much of this Melissa because I think so much of this is um parents tend to want to correct in is um parents tend to want to correct in is um parents tend to want to correct in the moment of crisis. They want to get a the moment of crisis. They want to get a the moment of crisis. They want to get a home run and when everybody is amped up home run and when everybody is amped up home run and when everybody is amped up is kind of the worst time to give a big is kind of the worst time to give a big is kind of the worst time to give a big lesson out of it. Sometimes you lesson out of it. Sometimes you lesson out of it. Sometimes you persevere to the other side of the persevere to the other side of the persevere to the other side of the crisis point and then you circle back crisis point and then you circle back crisis point and then you circle back later and debrief. Um because that's how later and debrief. Um because that's how later and debrief. Um because that's how we all learn. We all learn better that we all learn. We all learn better that we all learn. We all learn better that way. So certainly certainly our kids are way. So certainly certainly our kids are way. So certainly certainly our kids are like that. And I you know I think like that. And I you know I think like that. And I you know I think another obstacle that parents are up another obstacle that parents are up another obstacle that parents are up against is against is against is um you guys can tell me if you see this um you guys can tell me if you see this um you guys can tell me if you see this in your um context as well, but it's in your um context as well, but it's in your um context as well, but it's it's almost like the fighting and the it's almost like the fighting and the it's almost like the fighting and the rivalry is just the way it's going to rivalry is just the way it's going to rivalry is just the way it's going to be. It's um that that we don't have any be. It's um that that we don't have any be. It's um that that we don't have any expectation for anything expectation for anything expectation for anything uh more beautiful than that because it's uh more beautiful than that because it's uh more beautiful than that because it's just what we have to get through. We just what we have to get through. We just what we have to get through. We just have to, you know, endure it and just have to, you know, endure it and just have to, you know, endure it and break up the fights. And um what I found

break up the fights. And um what I found break up the fights. And um what I found is I've talked about this other places. is I've talked about this other places. is I've talked about this other places. I'm sure I've talked about it with you I'm sure I've talked about it with you I'm sure I've talked about it with you guys. Until I saw the loving sibling guys. Until I saw the loving sibling guys. Until I saw the loving sibling dynamic between my husband and his dynamic between my husband and his dynamic between my husband and his sister that had been since childhood, I sister that had been since childhood, I sister that had been since childhood, I would have said that's not even would have said that's not even would have said that's not even possible. And I even mocked it because I possible. And I even mocked it because I possible. And I even mocked it because I didn't have a place for it in my own didn't have a place for it in my own didn't have a place for it in my own experience. Uh but then it was like once experience. Uh but then it was like once experience. Uh but then it was like once I allowed myself to entertain the I allowed myself to entertain the I allowed myself to entertain the possibility that if it was possible, it possibility that if it was possible, it possibility that if it was possible, it was something that was it was something was something that was it was something was something that was it was something I could cultivate, I could work toward, I could cultivate, I could work toward, I could cultivate, I could work toward, um it really changed the parenting game um it really changed the parenting game um it really changed the parenting game in terms of thinking about sibling in terms of thinking about sibling in terms of thinking about sibling rivalry for us. And it didn't mean that rivalry for us. And it didn't mean that rivalry for us. And it didn't mean that you didn't have fighting and it didn't you didn't have fighting and it didn't you didn't have fighting and it didn't mean that. It just meant that you had a mean that. It just meant that you had a mean that. It just meant that you had a long view on it and you were like, you long view on it and you were like, you long view on it and you were like, you know, today didn't go great, but once know, today didn't go great, but once know, today didn't go great, but once things are calm again, how can I look things are calm again, how can I look things are calm again, how can I look for positive expressions of siblinghood for positive expressions of siblinghood for positive expressions of siblinghood that I can reinforce and and and um that I can reinforce and and and um that I can reinforce and and and um point toward? But yeah, I I sometimes point toward? But yeah, I I sometimes point toward? But yeah, I I sometimes think parents don't think it's possible think parents don't think it's possible think parents don't think it's possible for kids to to to rise above it. I love for kids to to to rise above it. I love for kids to to to rise above it. I love that. Creating those categories and that that. Creating those categories and that that. Creating those categories and that that just place to think about it. I that just place to think about it. I that just place to think about it. I know we did. My my kids make fun of this know we did. My my kids make fun of this know we did. My my kids make fun of this now, so I'm not putting this out there now, so I'm not putting this out there now, so I'm not putting this out there as exemplary. That's for sure. But like as exemplary. That's for sure. But like as exemplary. That's for sure. But like in the girls, the girls shared a in the girls, the girls shared a in the girls, the girls shared a bathroom. They shared a bedroom. They bathroom. They shared a bedroom. They bathroom. They shared a bedroom. They shared a bathroom. And I, you know, it shared a bathroom. And I, you know, it shared a bathroom. And I, you know, it was the day of the where you put the was the day of the where you put the was the day of the where you put the stickers on the wall, you know, that stickers on the wall, you know, that stickers on the wall, you know, that said something. And so this one said, said something. And so this one said, said something. And so this one said, "Best friends are we, my sister and me."

"Best friends are we, my sister and me." "Best friends are we, my sister and me." In really big letters. And it was just In really big letters. And it was just In really big letters. And it was just like my whole and then I had a a like my whole and then I had a a like my whole and then I had a a painting in the boys' bedroom of two painting in the boys' bedroom of two painting in the boys' bedroom of two brothers, you know, kind of from the brothers, you know, kind of from the brothers, you know, kind of from the back hold, you know, like arms around back hold, you know, like arms around back hold, you know, like arms around each other walking through a field and each other walking through a field and each other walking through a field and and you know, the point was like to and you know, the point was like to and you know, the point was like to intentionally put things in front of intentionally put things in front of intentionally put things in front of them that hey, this is important. Um and them that hey, this is important. Um and them that hey, this is important. Um and and we really talked a lot about getting and we really talked a lot about getting and we really talked a lot about getting it right at home before you had the it right at home before you had the it right at home before you had the privilege of kind of doing stuff outside privilege of kind of doing stuff outside privilege of kind of doing stuff outside the home. So, oh yeah, the home. So, oh yeah, the home. So, oh yeah, >> if they became characterized >> if they became characterized >> if they became characterized >> by >> by >> by um disputes. So, this isn't the oneoff. um disputes. So, this isn't the oneoff. um disputes. So, this isn't the oneoff. This is where you're dealing with the This is where you're dealing with the This is where you're dealing with the same two in conflict over and over and same two in conflict over and over and same two in conflict over and over and over again, and you're like, "Okay, this over again, and you're like, "Okay, this over again, and you're like, "Okay, this has become a character trait." Then we has become a character trait." Then we has become a character trait." Then we would kind of rein it in from the would kind of rein it in from the would kind of rein it in from the outside and say, "You know what? We're outside and say, "You know what? We're outside and say, "You know what? We're not we're not having those friends over. not we're not having those friends over. not we're not having those friends over. You're not going there." Like this until You're not going there." Like this until You're not going there." Like this until you two can get it right. Like, you're you two can get it right. Like, you're you two can get it right. Like, you're really not going because it of course really not going because it of course really not going because it of course you're and we would talk about it. Of you're and we would talk about it. Of you're and we would talk about it. Of course it's easier to be nice to Jake.

course it's easier to be nice to Jake. course it's easier to be nice to Jake. Of course it's easier to be nice to Of course it's easier to be nice to Of course it's easier to be nice to whoever. You know why? When Jake doesn't whoever. You know why? When Jake doesn't whoever. You know why? When Jake doesn't return your book, you're like, "Oh, no return your book, you're like, "Oh, no return your book, you're like, "Oh, no worries. You know, I'll get it later." worries. You know, I'll get it later." worries. You know, I'll get it later." But when your brother doesn't return But when your brother doesn't return But when your brother doesn't return your toothpaste, you know, you're your toothpaste, you know, you're your toothpaste, you know, you're socking them in the face. I mean, socking them in the face. I mean, socking them in the face. I mean, there's a like that's not right. And so there's a like that's not right. And so there's a like that's not right. And so how do we kind of require and say, "Hey, how do we kind of require and say, "Hey, how do we kind of require and say, "Hey, this is actually the most important this is actually the most important this is actually the most important thing we have going on right here is how thing we have going on right here is how thing we have going on right here is how you guys within the family are treating you guys within the family are treating you guys within the family are treating um are treating each other. So what are um are treating each other. So what are um are treating each other. So what are some things that you guys did, Melissa, some things that you guys did, Melissa, some things that you guys did, Melissa, like proactively encourage friendships like proactively encourage friendships like proactively encourage friendships between siblings?" between siblings?" between siblings?" >> Yeah, I think certain patterns that you >> Yeah, I think certain patterns that you >> Yeah, I think certain patterns that you have in your home can help with this. I have in your home can help with this. I have in your home can help with this. I mean, one thing we did every birthday, mean, one thing we did every birthday, mean, one thing we did every birthday, every person of the family said every person of the family said every person of the family said something they love about the other something they love about the other something they love about the other person. I mean, we did that, too. person. I mean, we did that, too. person. I mean, we did that, too. >> You know, but it's it's so special, >> You know, but it's it's so special, >> You know, but it's it's so special, right? I mean, because sometimes you right? I mean, because sometimes you right? I mean, because sometimes you never say what you love about each never say what you love about each never say what you love about each other. other. other. >> You just deal with the stuff and then >> You just deal with the stuff and then >> You just deal with the stuff and then when they hear it, it goes in. It goes when they hear it, it goes in. It goes when they hear it, it goes in. It goes in really deeply. I think the other in really deeply. I think the other in really deeply. I think the other thing we did, we prayed together as a thing we did, we prayed together as a thing we did, we prayed together as a family regularly. And there's something family regularly. And there's something family regularly. And there's something that happens when I pray for you. It that happens when I pray for you. It that happens when I pray for you. It just softens the heart toward one just softens the heart toward one just softens the heart toward one another. I mean, those are so simple. I another. I mean, those are so simple. I another. I mean, those are so simple. I mean, these are not, you know, we had mean, these are not, you know, we had mean, these are not, you know, we had like like like I don't know big big things, but they I don't know big big things, but they I don't know big big things, but they were just simple. And I think I think were just simple. And I think I think were just simple. And I think I think over time that simple made a difference.

over time that simple made a difference. over time that simple made a difference. >> Um, what about you guys, Jen, Courtney? >> Um, what about you guys, Jen, Courtney? >> Um, what about you guys, Jen, Courtney? Did y'all have any things? Did y'all have any things? Did y'all have any things? >> We did that for sure. We did those >> We did that for sure. We did those >> We did that for sure. We did those things. And I I mean, I'm like things. And I I mean, I'm like things. And I I mean, I'm like wondering, was there some somebody wondering, was there some somebody wondering, was there some somebody promoting that at the time that we were promoting that at the time that we were promoting that at the time that we were having babies? cuz I don't remember having babies? cuz I don't remember having babies? cuz I don't remember reading it anywhere. Uh but we we loved reading it anywhere. Uh but we we loved reading it anywhere. Uh but we we loved it and that just that that uh culture of it and that just that that uh culture of it and that just that that uh culture of um encouragement was just a real big uh um encouragement was just a real big uh um encouragement was just a real big uh value for us. And um and specifically value for us. And um and specifically value for us. And um and specifically during the prayer time, we would one of during the prayer time, we would one of during the prayer time, we would one of the things we did to help them like the things we did to help them like the things we did to help them like really listen was everyone would share really listen was everyone would share really listen was everyone would share what they wanted prayer for, but then what they wanted prayer for, but then what they wanted prayer for, but then afterwards it was, well, I'll pray for afterwards it was, well, I'll pray for afterwards it was, well, I'll pray for Matt. Well, I'll pray for Claire. You Matt. Well, I'll pray for Claire. You Matt. Well, I'll pray for Claire. You know, we didn't assign that beforehand. know, we didn't assign that beforehand. know, we didn't assign that beforehand. So, you listened to what everyone was So, you listened to what everyone was So, you listened to what everyone was saying and then you had to sort of saying and then you had to sort of saying and then you had to sort of recall what that person had said, you recall what that person had said, you recall what that person had said, you know, um who you were going to pray for. know, um who you were going to pray for. know, um who you were going to pray for. Um we we did shared rooms. Um we had Um we we did shared rooms. Um we had Um we we did shared rooms. Um we had room for them to not share rooms, but we room for them to not share rooms, but we room for them to not share rooms, but we felt like the more overlap they could felt like the more overlap they could felt like the more overlap they could get in the home, the better. And I'm get in the home, the better. And I'm get in the home, the better. And I'm actually I've been visiting with my actually I've been visiting with my actually I've been visiting with my daughter about this some because she has daughter about this some because she has daughter about this some because she has um she's going to have kids sharing a um she's going to have kids sharing a um she's going to have kids sharing a room and she's like, "Do you just let room and she's like, "Do you just let room and she's like, "Do you just let them yammer on in there when it's past them yammer on in there when it's past them yammer on in there when it's past bedtime?" you know, when do you bedtime?" you know, when do you bedtime?" you know, when do you intervene? And I'm like, well, do you intervene? And I'm like, well, do you intervene? And I'm like, well, do you remember you and your sister? Just like remember you and your sister? Just like remember you and your sister? Just like she's like, I do. And it was those she's like, I do. And it was those she's like, I do. And it was those moments where I had to rulesy Jen had to moments where I had to rulesy Jen had to moments where I had to rulesy Jen had to step back and let relationship step back and let relationship step back and let relationship form even though it didn't necessarily form even though it didn't necessarily form even though it didn't necessarily fit into my neat plans all the time. Um, fit into my neat plans all the time. Um, fit into my neat plans all the time. Um, but I think in general, the principle but I think in general, the principle but I think in general, the principle behind what we did with the kids was we behind what we did with the kids was we behind what we did with the kids was we looked for as many ways for their lives

looked for as many ways for their lives looked for as many ways for their lives to overlap as possible. to overlap as possible. to overlap as possible. And um and so that impacted candidly how And um and so that impacted candidly how And um and so that impacted candidly how we thought about things like uh travel we thought about things like uh travel we thought about things like uh travel sports teams or you know what were we sports teams or you know what were we sports teams or you know what were we going to commit each individual child's going to commit each individual child's going to commit each individual child's time to um because all of that impacts time to um because all of that impacts time to um because all of that impacts how much time they're going to spend how much time they're going to spend how much time they're going to spend together. So um then that's a you know together. So um then that's a you know together. So um then that's a you know that's a hot topic uh among parents that's a hot topic uh among parents that's a hot topic uh among parents right right right >> what would you like to say about youth >> what would you like to say about youth >> what would you like to say about youth sports? sports? sports? >> What would I like to say? Uh I won't say >> What would I like to say? Uh I won't say >> What would I like to say? Uh I won't say anything about Yes. Yeah. Let me just anything about Yes. Yeah. Let me just anything about Yes. Yeah. Let me just No. I think what I would love for No. I think what I would love for No. I think what I would love for parents to hear though is if you're parents to hear though is if you're parents to hear though is if you're thinking, man, I I we often we have an thinking, man, I I we often we have an thinking, man, I I we often we have an anti- vision. It's like we're we're anti- vision. It's like we're we're anti- vision. It's like we're we're we're managing sin problems in the home we're managing sin problems in the home we're managing sin problems in the home instead of a beautiful vision. Uh which instead of a beautiful vision. Uh which instead of a beautiful vision. Uh which is what if we all saw each other as our is what if we all saw each other as our is what if we all saw each other as our our closest people and who who we were our closest people and who who we were our closest people and who who we were going to travel through life with and going to travel through life with and going to travel through life with and then what do we need to do to get there? then what do we need to do to get there? then what do we need to do to get there? And so I think parents today think um And so I think parents today think um And so I think parents today think um they only see the risk of not putting they only see the risk of not putting they only see the risk of not putting their kids in a bunch of activities, but their kids in a bunch of activities, but their kids in a bunch of activities, but they don't perceive any risk the other they don't perceive any risk the other they don't perceive any risk the other direction or the benefit of putting direction or the benefit of putting direction or the benefit of putting their kids in sports or or not sports is their kids in sports or or not sports is their kids in sports or or not sports is not the punching bag. It's any of these not the punching bag. It's any of these not the punching bag. It's any of these things that people who want your time things that people who want your time things that people who want your time and your money are willing to market to and your money are willing to market to and your money are willing to market to you as a parent. And they only see the you as a parent. And they only see the you as a parent. And they only see the potential benefit or risk of whether potential benefit or risk of whether potential benefit or risk of whether they say yes or no to those spaces. and they say yes or no to those spaces. and they say yes or no to those spaces. and they don't always look the other way and they don't always look the other way and they don't always look the other way and go, but what what is the actual cost to go, but what what is the actual cost to go, but what what is the actual cost to our family and our family identity of of our family and our family identity of of our family and our family identity of of opting into those things and what is

opting into those things and what is opting into those things and what is actually the benefit that we might reap actually the benefit that we might reap actually the benefit that we might reap over a lifetime if we spend more time in over a lifetime if we spend more time in over a lifetime if we spend more time in shared spaces? shared spaces? shared spaces? >> I love that. Well, I would advocate hard >> I love that. Well, I would advocate hard >> I love that. Well, I would advocate hard and heavy for family dinners. um that and heavy for family dinners. um that and heavy for family dinners. um that that space around the table every day is that space around the table every day is that space around the table every day is just so where where no you're not making just so where where no you're not making just so where where no you're not making a separate meal for every child but a separate meal for every child but a separate meal for every child but everybody eats what is the one prepared everybody eats what is the one prepared everybody eats what is the one prepared thing because even that matters right thing because even that matters right thing because even that matters right it's not it's not it's not >> it's a shared it's a shared experience >> it's a shared it's a shared experience >> it's a shared it's a shared experience >> it's a shared experience and so each >> it's a shared experience and so each >> it's a shared experience and so each piece of that family meal really matters piece of that family meal really matters piece of that family meal really matters um but also I remember hearing when my um but also I remember hearing when my um but also I remember hearing when my kids were young something about you know kids were young something about you know kids were young something about you know you can view your family if you view you can view your family if you view you can view your family if you view your family as standing in a circle and your family as standing in a circle and your family as standing in a circle and you're all holding hands. Are you all you're all holding hands. Are you all you're all holding hands. Are you all facing out or are you all facing in? facing out or are you all facing in? facing out or are you all facing in? >> And I really loved that because the all >> And I really loved that because the all >> And I really loved that because the all facing in was where we were paying facing in was where we were paying facing in was where we were paying attention to what the other one was attention to what the other one was attention to what the other one was doing. So my kids went to each other's doing. So my kids went to each other's doing. So my kids went to each other's sports games. You know, they they went sports games. You know, they they went sports games. You know, they they went and were present at those things. And I and were present at those things. And I and were present at those things. And I think that those again there is in no think that those again there is in no think that those again there is in no way, shape or form I am trying to put way, shape or form I am trying to put way, shape or form I am trying to put the way I parented out as exemplary. I'm the way I parented out as exemplary. I'm the way I parented out as exemplary. I'm just saying there were a few things by just saying there were a few things by just saying there were a few things by God's grace that I look back and I'm God's grace that I look back and I'm God's grace that I look back and I'm like I'm really glad that we did that.

like I'm really glad that we did that. like I'm really glad that we did that. And and there are things like that where And and there are things like that where And and there are things like that where we where we had like you said it wasn't we where we had like you said it wasn't we where we had like you said it wasn't an anti- vision. It was a vision of an anti- vision. It was a vision of an anti- vision. It was a vision of something beautiful and we held it out something beautiful and we held it out something beautiful and we held it out there as this is our family culture and there as this is our family culture and there as this is our family culture and it and it matters to be a part of this it and it matters to be a part of this it and it matters to be a part of this family. Um there is an identity that and family. Um there is an identity that and family. Um there is an identity that and we can overplay that, right? It can we can overplay that, right? It can we can overplay that, right? It can become where it's there's no become where it's there's no become where it's there's no differentiation and that's not good differentiation and that's not good differentiation and that's not good either. We're not advocating for that. either. We're not advocating for that. either. We're not advocating for that. But um but to have a strong family But um but to have a strong family But um but to have a strong family identity that allows for differentiation identity that allows for differentiation identity that allows for differentiation I think really does give the give a I think really does give the give a I think really does give the give a great launch pad. Courtney, one thing great launch pad. Courtney, one thing great launch pad. Courtney, one thing that I think that you said that's that I think that you said that's that I think that you said that's actually important um when you were actually important um when you were actually important um when you were talking about the dinner is you didn't talking about the dinner is you didn't talking about the dinner is you didn't remove what might be a conflict. So remove what might be a conflict. So remove what might be a conflict. So sometimes we handle conflict resolution sometimes we handle conflict resolution sometimes we handle conflict resolution by removing the conflict. Um so I think by removing the conflict. Um so I think by removing the conflict. Um so I think about this now with everyone having about this now with everyone having about this now with everyone having their own device. you don't even all their own device. you don't even all their own device. you don't even all have to watch the same show together have to watch the same show together have to watch the same show together anymore. And that used to be a source of anymore. And that used to be a source of anymore. And that used to be a source of conflict because, you know, we had one, conflict because, you know, we had one, conflict because, you know, we had one, >> you know, on long trips, they were >> you know, on long trips, they were >> you know, on long trips, they were allowed to have this TV type.

allowed to have this TV type. allowed to have this TV type. >> We did the same thing. We had to strap >> We did the same thing. We had to strap >> We did the same thing. We had to strap in. These people have no idea how hard in. These people have no idea how hard in. These people have no idea how hard [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and the boys had to watch the girls, you and the boys had to watch the girls, you and the boys had to watch the girls, you know, their little Disney horse movies. know, their little Disney horse movies. know, their little Disney horse movies. Spirit. My boys say that they have Spirit. My boys say that they have Spirit. My boys say that they have watched Spirit more times than any boy watched Spirit more times than any boy watched Spirit more times than any boy should have ever seen [laughter] Spirit. should have ever seen [laughter] Spirit. should have ever seen [laughter] Spirit. >> Yeah. Forces them to have a shared >> Yeah. Forces them to have a shared >> Yeah. Forces them to have a shared experience. experience. experience. >> Yes. Yes. And I think that is missing as >> Yes. Yes. And I think that is missing as >> Yes. Yes. And I think that is missing as we get more individualized. Go to your we get more individualized. Go to your we get more individualized. Go to your room. Go to your room. Go to your room. room. Go to your room. Go to your room. room. Go to your room. Go to your room. I mean, you know, your device, your I mean, you know, your device, your I mean, you know, your device, your device, your device. That avoidance of device, your device. That avoidance of device, your device. That avoidance of conflict is not going to build conflict is not going to build conflict is not going to build relationship. We did it with music. We relationship. We did it with music. We relationship. We did it with music. We did it with um a lot of things. And it did it with um a lot of things. And it did it with um a lot of things. And it was but they learn they end up learning. was but they learn they end up learning. was but they learn they end up learning. They think, "Oh, I have to set aside my They think, "Oh, I have to set aside my They think, "Oh, I have to set aside my preferences." You know, that's the preferences." You know, that's the preferences." You know, that's the learning. But what they end up with are learning. But what they end up with are learning. But what they end up with are a lot of happy accidents where they a lot of happy accidents where they a lot of happy accidents where they realize that they got exposed to realize that they got exposed to realize that they got exposed to something they wouldn't have known they something they wouldn't have known they something they wouldn't have known they loved until they tried it. And then loved until they tried it. And then loved until they tried it. And then there's that connection that they'll there's that connection that they'll there's that connection that they'll always have. Like my kids have this always have. Like my kids have this always have. Like my kids have this memory. They hated it at the time where memory. They hated it at the time where memory. They hated it at the time where I made them listen to um Handle's I made them listen to um Handle's I made them listen to um Handle's Messiah on the way out to we had an Messiah on the way out to we had an Messiah on the way out to we had an 11-hour trip out to Santa Fe a lot to 11-hour trip out to Santa Fe a lot to 11-hour trip out to Santa Fe a lot to see my parents. And they were also only see my parents. And they were also only see my parents. And they were also only allowed to watch one movie on the trip.

allowed to watch one movie on the trip. allowed to watch one movie on the trip. And so they always chose The Sound of And so they always chose The Sound of And so they always chose The Sound of Music because it was three and a half Music because it was three and a half Music because it was three and a half hours long. hours long. hours long. >> Yeah. Swiss Family Robinson. >> Yeah. Swiss Family Robinson. >> Yeah. Swiss Family Robinson. >> Yeah. I'm like if I I I know people want >> Yeah. I'm like if I I I know people want >> Yeah. I'm like if I I I know people want to watch that movie over and over again, to watch that movie over and over again, to watch that movie over and over again, but I like I feel like I've probably but I like I feel like I've probably but I like I feel like I've probably seen my life quota of that movie. But um seen my life quota of that movie. But um seen my life quota of that movie. But um but with that extra and I made them but with that extra and I made them but with that extra and I made them listen to Handles Messiah and I had listen to Handles Messiah and I had listen to Handles Messiah and I had printed out uh sheets with all of the printed out uh sheets with all of the printed out uh sheets with all of the scriptures that are sung and they were scriptures that are sung and they were scriptures that are sung and they were scrambled and they had to number them scrambled and they had to number them scrambled and they had to number them according to the tracks and then if they according to the tracks and then if they according to the tracks and then if they got it right then we went to Chick-fil-A got it right then we went to Chick-fil-A got it right then we went to Chick-fil-A uh on the way back and so uh the in the uh on the way back and so uh the in the uh on the way back and so uh the in the in the moment they were like mom's the in the moment they were like mom's the in the moment they were like mom's the worst. worst. worst. And years later, it's this really funny And years later, it's this really funny And years later, it's this really funny shared memory that they have. And also, shared memory that they have. And also, shared memory that they have. And also, guess what? They all love the Messiah. guess what? They all love the Messiah. guess what? They all love the Messiah. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it also speaks to >> Yeah. Yeah. But it also speaks to >> Yeah. Yeah. But it also speaks to something, too. I mean, you saying that something, too. I mean, you saying that something, too. I mean, you saying that reminds me. I don't know if they had to reminds me. I don't know if they had to reminds me. I don't know if they had to work together on this little activity work together on this little activity work together on this little activity that you did. that you did. that you did. >> No, they were not. No, they actually >> No, they were not. No, they actually >> No, they were not. No, they actually weren't allowed to. That probably would weren't allowed to. That probably would weren't allowed to. That probably would have taken it up a notch. have taken it up a notch. have taken it up a notch. >> But I was just thinking, we made our >> But I was just thinking, we made our >> But I was just thinking, we made our kids clean the dishes every night after kids clean the dishes every night after kids clean the dishes every night after dinner.

dinner. dinner. >> Oh, yeah. And let me tell you, the way I >> Oh, yeah. And let me tell you, the way I >> Oh, yeah. And let me tell you, the way I dealt with that conflict was to go on dealt with that conflict was to go on dealt with that conflict was to go on the porch. I would I could not sit in the porch. I would I could not sit in the porch. I would I could not sit in the kitchen while they were doing it. the kitchen while they were doing it. the kitchen while they were doing it. One, they were like I would correct One, they were like I would correct One, they were like I would correct everything they were doing if I stayed. everything they were doing if I stayed. everything they were doing if I stayed. I'd be like, "That is not how you clean I'd be like, "That is not how you clean I'd be like, "That is not how you clean a counter. That is so inefficient, you a counter. That is so inefficient, you a counter. That is so inefficient, you know, whatever." [laughter] But but so I know, whatever." [laughter] But but so I know, whatever." [laughter] But but so I just removed myself because I knew they just removed myself because I knew they just removed myself because I knew they had to learn. And then I could come in had to learn. And then I could come in had to learn. And then I could come in and say, "Nope, it's not done well and say, "Nope, it's not done well and say, "Nope, it's not done well enough. You need to do it again or or enough. You need to do it again or or enough. You need to do it again or or whatever." But them having to argue whatever." But them having to argue whatever." But them having to argue >> about what problem solve. >> about what problem solve. >> about what problem solve. >> Yeah. And one child always had to go to >> Yeah. And one child always had to go to >> Yeah. And one child always had to go to the bathroom conveniently after the bathroom conveniently after the bathroom conveniently after [laughter] dinner for a very long time, [laughter] dinner for a very long time, [laughter] dinner for a very long time, you know, but it just you know, but it just you know, but it just >> it they they learn to work together and >> it they they learn to work together and >> it they they learn to work together and and you know, I think again you might and you know, I think again you might and you know, I think again you might actually put them in situations where actually put them in situations where actually put them in situations where there's going to be more conflict like there's going to be more conflict like there's going to be more conflict like chores and things like that and that chores and things like that and that chores and things like that and that again builds relationship. I don't think again builds relationship. I don't think again builds relationship. I don't think we have to be afraid of, you know, we have to be afraid of, you know, we have to be afraid of, you know, putting him in that. You're laughing, putting him in that. You're laughing, putting him in that. You're laughing, Courtney. What are you laughing about? Courtney. What are you laughing about? Courtney. What are you laughing about? >> Because parenting techniques that I have >> Because parenting techniques that I have >> Because parenting techniques that I have employed, you know, I'll just I'll toss employed, you know, I'll just I'll toss employed, you know, I'll just I'll toss it out there to the world of the it out there to the world of the it out there to the world of the internet. Have you ever seen the get internet. Have you ever seen the get internet. Have you ever seen the get along t-shirt where you put two kids in along t-shirt where you put two kids in along t-shirt where you put two kids in a big a big a big >> Oh, I have seen that. [laughter] >> Oh, I have seen that. [laughter] >> Oh, I have seen that. [laughter] >> Well, we may or may not have done >> Well, we may or may not have done >> Well, we may or may not have done similar things and then given jobs to do similar things and then given jobs to do similar things and then given jobs to do like mow the yard and go get the mail, like mow the yard and go get the mail, like mow the yard and go get the mail, which is a quarter of a mile away which is a quarter of a mile away which is a quarter of a mile away because we lived in the country. I mean, because we lived in the country. I mean, because we lived in the country. I mean, it was like, "No, this isn't I' I've it was like, "No, this isn't I' I've it was like, "No, this isn't I' I've never been a fan of saying, "Oh, you two never been a fan of saying, "Oh, you two never been a fan of saying, "Oh, you two aren't getting along. Go to your aren't getting along. Go to your aren't getting along. Go to your separate rooms." I was always a fan of, separate rooms." I was always a fan of, separate rooms." I was always a fan of, "Oh, you two aren't getting along. I'm "Oh, you two aren't getting along. I'm "Oh, you two aren't getting along. I'm going to ramp it up." Like, we're going

going to ramp it up." Like, we're going going to ramp it up." Like, we're going to we're going to we're going to tighten to we're going to we're going to tighten to we're going to we're going to tighten the lid down on this and and you guys the lid down on this and and you guys the lid down on this and and you guys are going to have to figure it out in are going to have to figure it out in are going to have to figure it out in the context of the conflict because I the context of the conflict because I the context of the conflict because I don't think that the best way to resolve don't think that the best way to resolve don't think that the best way to resolve conflict is to say, "Oh, go get your I conflict is to say, "Oh, go get your I conflict is to say, "Oh, go get your I mean, we all need to walk away mean, we all need to walk away mean, we all need to walk away sometimes." That's not what I'm I'm not sometimes." That's not what I'm I'm not sometimes." That's not what I'm I'm not saying saying saying >> there's a difference between taking a >> there's a difference between taking a >> there's a difference between taking a breather and Yeah. breather and Yeah. breather and Yeah. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> given exactly what they wanted, which >> given exactly what they wanted, which >> given exactly what they wanted, which was to not have to deal with each other. was to not have to deal with each other. was to not have to deal with each other. >> Exactly. But instead, like, oh, okay. >> Exactly. But instead, like, oh, okay. >> Exactly. But instead, like, oh, okay. Actually, like you said, like now the Actually, like you said, like now the Actually, like you said, like now the two of you are going to do the dishes two of you are going to do the dishes two of you are going to do the dishes every night for a week and you know, every night for a week and you know, every night for a week and you know, it's just that because by the end of it, it's just that because by the end of it, it's just that because by the end of it, you know, they're laughing. They're you know, they're laughing. They're you know, they're laughing. They're again, it's a shared memory. It's kind again, it's a shared memory. It's kind again, it's a shared memory. It's kind of all the things we've been talking of all the things we've been talking of all the things we've been talking about. Mhm. about. Mhm. about. Mhm. >> Well, I think that we should take a >> Well, I think that we should take a >> Well, I think that we should take a break for a word from our sponsor and break for a word from our sponsor and break for a word from our sponsor and when we come back, we're going to kind when we come back, we're going to kind when we come back, we're going to kind of flip the conversation a little bit of flip the conversation a little bit of flip the conversation a little bit and talk about sibling relationships as and talk about sibling relationships as and talk about sibling relationships as adults. So, we'll be back in just a adults. So, we'll be back in just a adults. So, we'll be back in just a minute. minute. minute. Okay. Well, welcome back. Um, we just a Okay. Well, welcome back. Um, we just a Okay. Well, welcome back. Um, we just a moment ago were discussing um how to moment ago were discussing um how to moment ago were discussing um how to foster healthy relationships between foster healthy relationships between foster healthy relationships between sibling children. Um, let's go back. We sibling children. Um, let's go back. We sibling children. Um, let's go back. We talked at the beginning of the episode talked at the beginning of the episode talked at the beginning of the episode about our siblings that we grew up with, about our siblings that we grew up with, about our siblings that we grew up with, our families that we grew up with. How our families that we grew up with. How our families that we grew up with. How is your relationship with your siblings is your relationship with your siblings is your relationship with your siblings different now from what it was when you different now from what it was when you different now from what it was when you were growing up? How does it look were growing up? How does it look were growing up? How does it look different in your family today?

different in your family today? different in your family today? >> I think it's interesting that the three >> I think it's interesting that the three >> I think it's interesting that the three of us don't have sisters. of us don't have sisters. of us don't have sisters. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> Do you think that's why we like hanging >> Do you think that's why we like hanging >> Do you think that's why we like hanging out so much? [laughter] out so much? [laughter] out so much? [laughter] >> Me sisters. >> Me sisters. >> Me sisters. >> Well, and the Yeah. The reason I was >> Well, and the Yeah. The reason I was >> Well, and the Yeah. The reason I was thinking about that is because I can see thinking about that is because I can see thinking about that is because I can see between my daughters a very different between my daughters a very different between my daughters a very different quality of relationship than I have had quality of relationship than I have had quality of relationship than I have had with my brothers or would expect to have with my brothers or would expect to have with my brothers or would expect to have with my brothers. So like when I think with my brothers. So like when I think with my brothers. So like when I think about what my adult relationships are about what my adult relationships are about what my adult relationships are like with them, I love them. I am eager like with them, I love them. I am eager like with them, I love them. I am eager to see them. We live far apart and um so to see them. We live far apart and um so to see them. We live far apart and um so we don't see each other often but we are we don't see each other often but we are we don't see each other often but we are all committed to being good children to all committed to being good children to all committed to being good children to our parents in the aging process and we our parents in the aging process and we our parents in the aging process and we kind of have like everybody kind of kind of have like everybody kind of kind of have like everybody kind of knows their way to contribute to that knows their way to contribute to that knows their way to contribute to that and it's a it's a peaceful and helpful and it's a it's a peaceful and helpful and it's a it's a peaceful and helpful arrangement like no one is asking the arrangement like no one is asking the arrangement like no one is asking the person who lives really far away to person who lives really far away to person who lives really far away to provide a form of support that is not provide a form of support that is not provide a form of support that is not feasible and I also O understood at feasible and I also O understood at feasible and I also O understood at least and this may be too traditional least and this may be too traditional least and this may be too traditional for some of our listeners but I I really for some of our listeners but I I really for some of our listeners but I I really did understand that as the daughter I did understand that as the daughter I did understand that as the daughter I would I would bear a particular uh care would I would bear a particular uh care would I would bear a particular uh care role that I would not have held held the role that I would not have held held the role that I would not have held held the boys to. Um and in some ways I've even boys to. Um and in some ways I've even boys to. Um and in some ways I've even had to say like to my stepmom, hey let had to say like to my stepmom, hey let had to say like to my stepmom, hey let me interact with you in the daughter me interact with you in the daughter me interact with you in the daughter role. You know like I'm not hiding from role. You know like I'm not hiding from role. You know like I'm not hiding from that. I'm not looking to give you a pass that. I'm not looking to give you a pass that. I'm not looking to give you a pass on that. um I want to be that for you. I on that. um I want to be that for you. I on that. um I want to be that for you. I think she, you know, was maybe a little

think she, you know, was maybe a little think she, you know, was maybe a little hesitant to to to sort of call in the hesitant to to to sort of call in the hesitant to to to sort of call in the chips on that relation relational chips on that relation relational chips on that relation relational capital she had built with me all those capital she had built with me all those capital she had built with me all those years. So I would say we are um uh years. So I would say we are um uh years. So I would say we are um uh deeply committed to each other. We don't deeply committed to each other. We don't deeply committed to each other. We don't talk once a week. We, you know, talk once a week. We, you know, talk once a week. We, you know, depending on what everybody's going depending on what everybody's going depending on what everybody's going through, we may only talk um every through, we may only talk um every through, we may only talk um every couple of months. Um, but we are all on couple of months. Um, but we are all on couple of months. Um, but we are all on the same page and we're there for each the same page and we're there for each the same page and we're there for each other in an instant if if if there's a other in an instant if if if there's a other in an instant if if if there's a need. need. need. >> Is this the holy fire stepmother? Just >> Is this the holy fire stepmother? Just >> Is this the holy fire stepmother? Just want to clear that up. want to clear that up. want to clear that up. >> Yes, this is the stepmother whose hair >> Yes, this is the stepmother whose hair >> Yes, this is the stepmother whose hair we lit in Jen. She's lit on fire. we lit in Jen. She's lit on fire. we lit in Jen. She's lit on fire. >> She doesn't want me to ignite. >> She doesn't want me to ignite. >> She doesn't want me to ignite. >> You don't know what we're talking about. >> You don't know what we're talking about. >> You don't know what we're talking about. >> I hope she's not on oxygen. I didn't go >> I hope she's not on oxygen. I didn't go >> I hope she's not on oxygen. I didn't go back and listen to Jen's talk at DZW24. back and listen to Jen's talk at DZW24. back and listen to Jen's talk at DZW24. >> Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. [laughter] Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Um, yeah. What about you guys? >> Um, yeah. What about you guys? >> Um, yeah. What about you guys? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting when I >> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting when I >> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting when I think about it. Um my brother and I both think about it. Um my brother and I both think about it. Um my brother and I both got really close when we came to faith. got really close when we came to faith. got really close when we came to faith. And so that was this huge um unifier for And so that was this huge um unifier for And so that was this huge um unifier for us. We both got really involved with us. We both got really involved with us. We both got really involved with FCA. In fact, my freshman year of high FCA. In fact, my freshman year of high FCA. In fact, my freshman year of high school, he was pretty much bullying me school, he was pretty much bullying me school, he was pretty much bullying me into coming. I was like, I do not want into coming. I was like, I do not want into coming. I was like, I do not want to go to this religious thing with you.

to go to this religious thing with you. to go to this religious thing with you. You know, but he was my cool older You know, but he was my cool older You know, but he was my cool older brother. He was a senior. like basically brother. He was a senior. like basically brother. He was a senior. like basically forcing his little sister to come and I forcing his little sister to come and I forcing his little sister to come and I think about that like I mean it was a think about that like I mean it was a think about that like I mean it was a huge impact on my life just him draw he huge impact on my life just him draw he huge impact on my life just him draw he really drew me in to a lot of things and really drew me in to a lot of things and really drew me in to a lot of things and I was a natural introvert he is the I was a natural introvert he is the I was a natural introvert he is the biggest extrovert on the planet so I biggest extrovert on the planet so I biggest extrovert on the planet so I will say I've had to you know one thing will say I've had to you know one thing will say I've had to you know one thing that's changed now is I'm more okay with that's changed now is I'm more okay with that's changed now is I'm more okay with being an introvert you know but for being an introvert you know but for being an introvert you know but for years when you grow up in an extrovert years when you grow up in an extrovert years when you grow up in an extrovert shadow as a younger sibling you think shadow as a younger sibling you think shadow as a younger sibling you think something's wrong with you and because something's wrong with you and because something's wrong with you and because he was like, "You got to come do this he was like, "You got to come do this he was like, "You got to come do this with me. You got to come do this with me with me. You got to come do this with me with me. You got to come do this with me or whatever." And so it is it is or whatever." And so it is it is or whatever." And so it is it is interesting to watch that relationship. interesting to watch that relationship. interesting to watch that relationship. It's grown, but we live in the same city It's grown, but we live in the same city It's grown, but we live in the same city and we're pretty terrible about seeing and we're pretty terrible about seeing and we're pretty terrible about seeing each other. Um it but there's not each other. Um it but there's not each other. Um it but there's not tension. It's just we're both busy and tension. It's just we're both busy and tension. It's just we're both busy and he's got six kids, you know, we there's he's got six kids, you know, we there's he's got six kids, you know, we there's just a lot going on. And so I I struggle just a lot going on. And so I I struggle just a lot going on. And so I I struggle with it at times. I'm like I'll see him with it at times. I'm like I'll see him with it at times. I'm like I'll see him and I'll be like, "You know, I love you, and I'll be like, "You know, I love you, and I'll be like, "You know, I love you, right? I'm sorry I haven't called in two right? I'm sorry I haven't called in two right? I'm sorry I haven't called in two months or I haven't seen you. But it's months or I haven't seen you. But it's months or I haven't seen you. But it's it's an interesting thing. But we both it's an interesting thing. But we both it's an interesting thing. But we both know it's kind of like what you were know it's kind of like what you were know it's kind of like what you were saying. If things are ever wrong with saying. If things are ever wrong with saying. If things are ever wrong with mom and dad, we're there for each other.

mom and dad, we're there for each other. mom and dad, we're there for each other. You know, that's a big thing for both of You know, that's a big thing for both of You know, that's a big thing for both of us. In fact, when he calls, he goes, "I us. In fact, when he calls, he goes, "I us. In fact, when he calls, he goes, "I just want you to know nothing's wrong." just want you to know nothing's wrong." just want you to know nothing's wrong." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Cuz normally that tells you how >> Cuz normally that tells you how >> Cuz normally that tells you how infrequently we're talking these days infrequently we're talking these days infrequently we're talking these days >> because you know, you just kind of live >> because you know, you just kind of live >> because you know, you just kind of live life, but it's that assurance that life, but it's that assurance that life, but it's that assurance that they're there too. Um which which is a they're there too. Um which which is a they're there too. Um which which is a nice thing. What about you, Courtney? nice thing. What about you, Courtney? nice thing. What about you, Courtney? How's yours changed? How's yours changed? How's yours changed? >> I, you know, he doesn't punch me >> I, you know, he doesn't punch me >> I, you know, he doesn't punch me anymore. That's a good [laughter] anymore. That's a good [laughter] anymore. That's a good [laughter] >> It's the I've got a great brother. We >> It's the I've got a great brother. We >> It's the I've got a great brother. We just are coming off of a week together. just are coming off of a week together. just are coming off of a week together. Um, we were all together for my mom's Um, we were all together for my mom's Um, we were all together for my mom's 80th birthday and it was really sweet 80th birthday and it was really sweet 80th birthday and it was really sweet and fun and my brother's really good at and fun and my brother's really good at and fun and my brother's really good at picking up the phone and calling and I'm picking up the phone and calling and I'm picking up the phone and calling and I'm grateful for that. You know, it's a he's grateful for that. You know, it's a he's grateful for that. You know, it's a he's he's just a communicative guy. Um I'm he's just a communicative guy. Um I'm he's just a communicative guy. Um I'm two years younger, but I got married and two years younger, but I got married and two years younger, but I got married and had kids significantly sooner than he had kids significantly sooner than he had kids significantly sooner than he did. And so in some ways there's been a did. And so in some ways there's been a did. And so in some ways there's been a little bit of role reversal where I'm a little bit of role reversal where I'm a little bit of role reversal where I'm a little just because I've you know I'm little just because I've you know I'm little just because I've you know I'm further down the path on some of those further down the path on some of those further down the path on some of those life things. And then again the daughter life things. And then again the daughter life things. And then again the daughter I think you know there's just a I think you know there's just a I think you know there's just a different a different role. But um yeah, different a different role. But um yeah, different a different role. But um yeah, and you know the thing I would say is I and you know the thing I would say is I and you know the thing I would say is I like I learn from my children and my like I learn from my children and my like I learn from my children and my children have phenomenal adult sibling children have phenomenal adult sibling children have phenomenal adult sibling relationships. They prioritize it. They relationships. They prioritize it. They relationships. They prioritize it. They invest in each other when they're invest in each other when they're invest in each other when they're together. They have what's called together. They have what's called together. They have what's called sibling night. Um sibling night. Um sibling night. Um >> Oh, my kids do that, too. Isn't >> Oh, my kids do that, too. Isn't >> Oh, my kids do that, too. Isn't >> that fun?

>> that fun? >> that fun? >> And I'm not invited. I'm like, do the >> And I'm not invited. I'm like, do the >> And I'm not invited. I'm like, do the parents ever get to come to sibling parents ever get to come to sibling parents ever get to come to sibling dinner? dinner? dinner? >> No. No. My dad crashed it last time over >> No. No. My dad crashed it last time over >> No. No. My dad crashed it last time over Christmas. They went bowling. My dad's Christmas. They went bowling. My dad's Christmas. They went bowling. My dad's 82. He and I have two college athletes 82. He and I have two college athletes 82. He and I have two college athletes in that group. He beat them all at go at in that group. He beat them all at go at in that group. He beat them all at go at bowling. Like that is so athletic. It's bowling. Like that is so athletic. It's bowling. Like that is so athletic. It's unbel Well, he just beat him at pickle unbel Well, he just beat him at pickle unbel Well, he just beat him at pickle ball this last week. It's unbelievable. ball this last week. It's unbelievable. ball this last week. It's unbelievable. But yeah, so my dad was invited in. He But yeah, so my dad was invited in. He But yeah, so my dad was invited in. He crashed it, but then they're like, crashed it, but then they're like, crashed it, but then they're like, "Yeah, come on, papa." But but I learn "Yeah, come on, papa." But but I learn "Yeah, come on, papa." But but I learn from them and that's, you know, the way from them and that's, you know, the way from them and that's, you know, the way they they do pick up the phone and call. they they do pick up the phone and call. they they do pick up the phone and call. They do stay pretty tethered um you They do stay pretty tethered um you They do stay pretty tethered um you know, to each other and and their lives. know, to each other and and their lives. know, to each other and and their lives. And so I, you know, I love I learned And so I, you know, I love I learned And so I, you know, I love I learned from that. I love I love the ways from that. I love I love the ways from that. I love I love the ways there's multiple areas in my life where there's multiple areas in my life where there's multiple areas in my life where my adult children have been really my adult children have been really my adult children have been really instructive um to me and that things I instructive um to me and that things I instructive um to me and that things I want to emulate in them and that's one want to emulate in them and that's one want to emulate in them and that's one of them for sure. What do you see as the of them for sure. What do you see as the of them for sure. What do you see as the biggest pressure points as we move into biggest pressure points as we move into biggest pressure points as we move into adulthood with our siblings? It's like I adulthood with our siblings? It's like I adulthood with our siblings? It's like I mean we've all lived through different mean we've all lived through different mean we've all lived through different ones of these cuz it's you know we and ones of these cuz it's you know we and ones of these cuz it's you know we and we all are blessed to have really great we all are blessed to have really great we all are blessed to have really great siblings but there are still there's a siblings but there are still there's a siblings but there are still there's a reality of being in families that issues reality of being in families that issues reality of being in families that issues don't go away. I mean they may not punch don't go away. I mean they may not punch don't go away. I mean they may not punch you anymore thankfully [laughter] you anymore thankfully [laughter] you anymore thankfully [laughter] but there are still points of but there are still points of but there are still points of disagreement. I mean there are a lot of disagreement. I mean there are a lot of disagreement. I mean there are a lot of things that can come up. What are some things that can come up. What are some things that can come up. What are some of the things you've seen and it could of the things you've seen and it could of the things you've seen and it could be in your own family or in other you be in your own family or in other you be in your own family or in other you friends as they're wrestling through friends as they're wrestling through friends as they're wrestling through these things. What are those pressure these things. What are those pressure these things. What are those pressure points that can come up?

points that can come up? points that can come up? >> I think it's hard for us sometimes to >> I think it's hard for us sometimes to >> I think it's hard for us sometimes to let our siblings be full- grown adults let our siblings be full- grown adults let our siblings be full- grown adults and to have gone through the same and to have gone through the same and to have gone through the same process of learning and change and process of learning and change and process of learning and change and growing in wisdom that we have um in the growing in wisdom that we have um in the growing in wisdom that we have um in the same way that sometimes your parents same way that sometimes your parents same way that sometimes your parents will say something to you and you're will say something to you and you're will say something to you and you're like, "Yeah, I'm not 12 anymore, you like, "Yeah, I'm not 12 anymore, you like, "Yeah, I'm not 12 anymore, you know." And I think we can do that with know." And I think we can do that with know." And I think we can do that with our siblings sometimes. And um it's our siblings sometimes. And um it's our siblings sometimes. And um it's really cool to have an adult experience really cool to have an adult experience really cool to have an adult experience of your sibling and be like you are a of your sibling and be like you are a of your sibling and be like you are a multi-dimensional person who has done multi-dimensional person who has done multi-dimensional person who has done some living and you are um the same some living and you are um the same some living and you are um the same person I knew but also a really um more person I knew but also a really um more person I knew but also a really um more um just grown up like you have so much um just grown up like you have so much um just grown up like you have so much more to your life experience than the more to your life experience than the more to your life experience than the however many years we shared a roof however many years we shared a roof however many years we shared a roof together. I have felt that so often with together. I have felt that so often with together. I have felt that so often with um like one of when a brother will step um like one of when a brother will step um like one of when a brother will step in and say well I can help with so for in and say well I can help with so for in and say well I can help with so for example one of my brothers is also an example one of my brothers is also an example one of my brothers is also an attorney and when my son was going attorney and when my son was going attorney and when my son was going through the adoption process they hit a through the adoption process they hit a through the adoption process they hit a major snag and it was looking bleak and major snag and it was looking bleak and major snag and it was looking bleak and my brother is a family law attorney and my brother is a family law attorney and my brother is a family law attorney and he's like no I got you don't worry about he's like no I got you don't worry about he's like no I got you don't worry about it we'll get it taken care of and you it we'll get it taken care of and you it we'll get it taken care of and you know got everything put through and well know got everything put through and well know got everything put through and well I don't think of him as a family law I don't think of him as a family law I don't think of him as a family law attorney I think of him as the kid that attorney I think of him as the kid that attorney I think of him as the kid that I used to play uncle with cuz he was I used to play uncle with cuz he was I used to play uncle with cuz he was younger than me and I they inflict pain younger than me and I they inflict pain younger than me and I they inflict pain on him, you know, and you're just like, on him, you know, and you're just like, on him, you know, and you're just like, "Wow, you're actually you're a really "Wow, you're actually you're a really "Wow, you're actually you're a really cool human and I'm glad you're a part of cool human and I'm glad you're a part of cool human and I'm glad you're a part of my family." And so, I think those my family." And so, I think those my family." And so, I think those moments we sometimes have to um give moments we sometimes have to um give moments we sometimes have to um give ourselves permission to walk toward and ourselves permission to walk toward and ourselves permission to walk toward and you have to you have to actually

you have to you have to actually you have to you have to actually sometimes do a little research into the sometimes do a little research into the sometimes do a little research into the person that your sibling has become or person that your sibling has become or person that your sibling has become or you or you'll be tempted to to keep them you or you'll be tempted to to keep them you or you'll be tempted to to keep them trapped in a former version of trapped in a former version of trapped in a former version of themselves. And I and I think I've also themselves. And I and I think I've also themselves. And I and I think I've also like had to learn to um pray for my like had to learn to um pray for my like had to learn to um pray for my siblings expansively siblings expansively siblings expansively to think of like you know what might the to think of like you know what might the to think of like you know what might the Lord have for this person instead of Lord have for this person instead of Lord have for this person instead of some memory of who I thought they were some memory of who I thought they were some memory of who I thought they were if that makes any sense. Yeah. And I if that makes any sense. Yeah. And I if that makes any sense. Yeah. And I think just along those lines of letting think just along those lines of letting think just along those lines of letting your siblings grow up. I think it's that your siblings grow up. I think it's that your siblings grow up. I think it's that that everybody has the responsibility to that everybody has the responsibility to that everybody has the responsibility to step into their family of origin step into their family of origin step into their family of origin continuing to grow out of your original continuing to grow out of your original continuing to grow out of your original roles. You know how everybody when you roles. You know how everybody when you roles. You know how everybody when you get in that family system, everybody get in that family system, everybody get in that family system, everybody reverts and everybody regrets it. You reverts and everybody regrets it. You reverts and everybody regrets it. You know, everybody's like, I hate I hate it know, everybody's like, I hate I hate it know, everybody's like, I hate I hate it when I act like this. And and so when I act like this. And and so when I act like this. And and so learning how to encourage each other. learning how to encourage each other. learning how to encourage each other. And I think Jen, what you were saying is And I think Jen, what you were saying is And I think Jen, what you were saying is part of it. It's saying, you know what, part of it. It's saying, you know what, part of it. It's saying, you know what, I see that growth in you and I'm going I see that growth in you and I'm going I see that growth in you and I'm going to honor it. Like it's helping each to honor it. Like it's helping each to honor it. Like it's helping each other step in as the as the whole people other step in as the as the whole people other step in as the as the whole people we are. I don't know what that is about we are. I don't know what that is about we are. I don't know what that is about reverting to our childhood roles, but reverting to our childhood roles, but reverting to our childhood roles, but man, I've seen it in myself. I've seen man, I've seen it in myself. I've seen man, I've seen it in myself. I've seen it in my children. It's just um but when it in my children. It's just um but when it in my children. It's just um but when you asked Melissa the biggest pressure you asked Melissa the biggest pressure you asked Melissa the biggest pressure points, you know, the one that I thought points, you know, the one that I thought points, you know, the one that I thought of, it's discipline issue with of, it's discipline issue with of, it's discipline issue with discipline issues with each other's discipline issues with each other's discipline issues with each other's kids. Like when you parent differently kids. Like when you parent differently kids. Like when you parent differently and you're all in the same space, it's and you're all in the same space, it's and you're all in the same space, it's really hard because then you've got the really hard because then you've got the really hard because then you've got the cousins or you've got the, you know, cousins or you've got the, you know, cousins or you've got the, you know, you're irritated with your brother or

you're irritated with your brother or you're irritated with your brother or sister or whoever it is that they're sister or whoever it is that they're sister or whoever it is that they're not, you know, that they're either not, you know, that they're either not, you know, that they're either disciplining your child or I like we disciplining your child or I like we disciplining your child or I like we just have to give each other space and just have to give each other space and just have to give each other space and grace to parent differently. But for grace to parent differently. But for grace to parent differently. But for some reason in the sibling relationship, some reason in the sibling relationship, some reason in the sibling relationship, I think that can be really I think that can be really I think that can be really >> really hard >> really hard >> really hard >> and it often comes up around the >> and it often comes up around the >> and it often comes up around the holidays. Mhm. holidays. Mhm. holidays. Mhm. >> So that was another one I was thinking >> So that was another one I was thinking >> So that was another one I was thinking about earlier was, you know, when are about earlier was, you know, when are about earlier was, you know, when are you all going to be here? When are we you all going to be here? When are we you all going to be here? When are we going to be here? You know, there's a going to be here? You know, there's a going to be here? You know, there's a dance that gets done every year. And dance that gets done every year. And dance that gets done every year. And every year it's kind of stressful about every year it's kind of stressful about every year it's kind of stressful about what schedule works best for this family what schedule works best for this family what schedule works best for this family and that family. And then you get into, and that family. And then you get into, and that family. And then you get into, well, and you give this many Christmas well, and you give this many Christmas well, and you give this many Christmas gifts and we give this. gifts and we give this. gifts and we give this. just complicated, you know, th those just complicated, you know, th those just complicated, you know, th those situations or what types of gifts. It's situations or what types of gifts. It's situations or what types of gifts. It's like all of a sudden your kids gifts like all of a sudden your kids gifts like all of a sudden your kids gifts look like, huh, you got that nice, you look like, huh, you got that nice, you look like, huh, you got that nice, you know, I don't know, I mean, whatever know, I don't know, I mean, whatever know, I don't know, I mean, whatever thing. And then they got a new sweater thing. And then they got a new sweater thing. And then they got a new sweater and your cousin got a Nintendo Switch or and your cousin got a Nintendo Switch or and your cousin got a Nintendo Switch or whatever it was at the time. Yeah, whatever it was at the time. Yeah, whatever it was at the time. Yeah, >> exactly. I I know. I didn't want to >> exactly. I I know. I didn't want to >> exactly. I I know. I didn't want to denigrate any any presents. No, sweater denigrate any any presents. No, sweater denigrate any any presents. No, sweater is a good one. Here's your cardigan.

is a good one. Here's your cardigan. is a good one. Here's your cardigan. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] And then so it's just it's complicated. And then so it's just it's complicated. And then so it's just it's complicated. I think as parents age, I've watched I think as parents age, I've watched I think as parents age, I've watched some friends go through, you know, just some friends go through, you know, just some friends go through, you know, just really tough things with their parents really tough things with their parents really tough things with their parents and and it was really sweet. I was and and it was really sweet. I was and and it was really sweet. I was actually at a friend's um parents' actually at a friend's um parents' actually at a friend's um parents' funeral recently. And she and her funeral recently. And she and her funeral recently. And she and her sister, a lot of the caregiving fell to sister, a lot of the caregiving fell to sister, a lot of the caregiving fell to them in the in the last, you know, six them in the in the last, you know, six them in the in the last, you know, six months. And what was beautiful about it months. And what was beautiful about it months. And what was beautiful about it was the way um one of the brothers who was the way um one of the brothers who was the way um one of the brothers who was speaking honored that. He really saw was speaking honored that. He really saw was speaking honored that. He really saw it and spoke about it and it was really it and spoke about it and it was really it and spoke about it and it was really sweet. Like he was like, "You two are sweet. Like he was like, "You two are sweet. Like he was like, "You two are the best sisters I could ever imagine the best sisters I could ever imagine the best sisters I could ever imagine >> and you took the best care." I mean, I >> and you took the best care." I mean, I >> and you took the best care." I mean, I just teared up as he was tearing up just teared up as he was tearing up just teared up as he was tearing up talking about it. And it was just, you talking about it. And it was just, you talking about it. And it was just, you know, because I knew along the way that know, because I knew along the way that know, because I knew along the way that can be frustrating sometimes, you know, can be frustrating sometimes, you know, can be frustrating sometimes, you know, and to to see it honored because there and to to see it honored because there and to to see it honored because there are going to be differences. Look, I'm are going to be differences. Look, I'm are going to be differences. Look, I'm already like my daughter's a nurse and already like my daughter's a nurse and already like my daughter's a nurse and I'm like, yep, I got one to take care of I'm like, yep, I got one to take care of I'm like, yep, I got one to take care of me. [laughter] me. [laughter] me. [laughter] I'm like, good. She can do this.

I'm like, good. She can do this. I'm like, good. She can do this. >> My kids all point to one child and >> My kids all point to one child and >> My kids all point to one child and they're like, [laughter] that's the one. they're like, [laughter] that's the one. they're like, [laughter] that's the one. >> I know. There's no pressure on you, >> I know. There's no pressure on you, >> I know. There's no pressure on you, Emma. I will name you Emma. There's Emma. I will name you Emma. There's Emma. I will name you Emma. There's [laughter] no pressure. [laughter] no pressure. [laughter] no pressure. >> There is pressure. There is pressure. >> There is pressure. There is pressure. >> There is pressure. There is pressure. [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] But it's it's, you know, it can I could But it's it's, you know, it can I could But it's it's, you know, it can I could think that can happen. And Jen, I mean, think that can happen. And Jen, I mean, think that can happen. And Jen, I mean, one thing I actually learned from you, I one thing I actually learned from you, I one thing I actually learned from you, I remember you talking about the privilege remember you talking about the privilege remember you talking about the privilege of of caring and um when I was going of of caring and um when I was going of of caring and um when I was going through a situation with my mom and she through a situation with my mom and she through a situation with my mom and she had broken a hip and her cancer had had broken a hip and her cancer had had broken a hip and her cancer had returned, I just remember thinking, I'm returned, I just remember thinking, I'm returned, I just remember thinking, I'm so thankful I am healthy to be able to so thankful I am healthy to be able to so thankful I am healthy to be able to do this. You know, you could spend the do this. You know, you could spend the do this. You know, you could spend the whole time thinking, well, why am I whole time thinking, well, why am I whole time thinking, well, why am I doing this and why, you know, all the doing this and why, you know, all the doing this and why, you know, all the comparison type things, but just to um comparison type things, but just to um comparison type things, but just to um we have to discipline our own hearts in we have to discipline our own hearts in we have to discipline our own hearts in those matters to say, hey, I'm so glad I those matters to say, hey, I'm so glad I those matters to say, hey, I'm so glad I get to be in this role doing this and get to be in this role doing this and get to be in this role doing this and and you know, and that that kind of can and you know, and that that kind of can and you know, and that that kind of can help help help as we're caring for aging parents. Well, as we're caring for aging parents. Well, as we're caring for aging parents. Well, and that's you guys know that's the and that's you guys know that's the and that's you guys know that's the headsp space I'm in right now. I'm headsp space I'm in right now. I'm headsp space I'm in right now. I'm trying to get this book written that's trying to get this book written that's trying to get this book written that's dealing with a lot of these topics. And dealing with a lot of these topics. And dealing with a lot of these topics. And one of the things that I just keep one of the things that I just keep one of the things that I just keep coming back to is how things have coming back to is how things have coming back to is how things have shifted generationally since my parents' shifted generationally since my parents' shifted generationally since my parents' generation generation generation and my generation and then my kids' and my generation and then my kids' and my generation and then my kids' generation and how my parents' generation and how my parents' generation and how my parents' generation generation generation they were the ones who is after World they were the ones who is after World they were the ones who is after World War II people have more mobility and the War II people have more mobility and the War II people have more mobility and the American dream is you take off from your American dream is you take off from your American dream is you take off from your town of origin and you live wherever you

town of origin and you live wherever you town of origin and you live wherever you need to to fulfill your career goals and need to to fulfill your career goals and need to to fulfill your career goals and your goals. you know, whatever that your goals. you know, whatever that your goals. you know, whatever that American dream looked like for for that American dream looked like for for that American dream looked like for for that particular family unit and you and your particular family unit and you and your particular family unit and you and your two and a half kids is enough to sustain two and a half kids is enough to sustain two and a half kids is enough to sustain every bump that life will send your way. every bump that life will send your way. every bump that life will send your way. And a return to where you came from is And a return to where you came from is And a return to where you came from is actually a sign of failure. And a return actually a sign of failure. And a return actually a sign of failure. And a return to needing care from your children would to needing care from your children would to needing care from your children would also be a sign that you didn't actualize also be a sign that you didn't actualize also be a sign that you didn't actualize the American dream and become the American dream and become the American dream and become self-sufficient even to extreme age and self-sufficient even to extreme age and self-sufficient even to extreme age and death. And so now I think what we're death. And so now I think what we're death. And so now I think what we're seeing is people and among those people seeing is people and among those people seeing is people and among those people are sociologists are saying, "Hey, that are sociologists are saying, "Hey, that are sociologists are saying, "Hey, that thing with with you and the 2.5 kids, thing with with you and the 2.5 kids, thing with with you and the 2.5 kids, that was never going to work." Like that was never going to work." Like that was never going to work." Like there aren't enough shock absorbers for there aren't enough shock absorbers for there aren't enough shock absorbers for when life gets hard. And so, um, I I when life gets hard. And so, um, I I when life gets hard. And so, um, I I with our kids when I was raising them, I with our kids when I was raising them, I with our kids when I was raising them, I didn't have top of mind, um, the didn't have top of mind, um, the didn't have top of mind, um, the significance that their relationships significance that their relationships significance that their relationships would play in caregiving for Jeff and me would play in caregiving for Jeff and me would play in caregiving for Jeff and me because I think I was still of the because I think I was still of the because I think I was still of the mentality somewhat of my parents that mentality somewhat of my parents that mentality somewhat of my parents that for my children to be my caregivers for my children to be my caregivers for my children to be my caregivers would have meant I had failed in some would have meant I had failed in some would have meant I had failed in some way. And what I'm just seeing with way. And what I'm just seeing with way. And what I'm just seeing with increasing clarity is that our culture increasing clarity is that our culture increasing clarity is that our culture is unique in that belief that um the is unique in that belief that um the is unique in that belief that um the vast majority of human cultures, vast majority of human cultures, vast majority of human cultures, children grow up expecting that they children grow up expecting that they children grow up expecting that they will provide care and and and so like will provide care and and and so like will provide care and and and so like you know there are all different kinds you know there are all different kinds you know there are all different kinds of family dynamics or all different of family dynamics or all different of family dynamics or all different kinds of ways that aging plays out. But kinds of ways that aging plays out. But kinds of ways that aging plays out. But when I think about the way I talk to my

when I think about the way I talk to my when I think about the way I talk to my kids now, I talk to them differently kids now, I talk to them differently kids now, I talk to them differently than than my parents talk to me. um I than than my parents talk to me. um I than than my parents talk to me. um I say, "Hey, I actually hope that we will say, "Hey, I actually hope that we will say, "Hey, I actually hope that we will get to enjoy relationship into extreme get to enjoy relationship into extreme get to enjoy relationship into extreme into my extreme age." And if that's the into my extreme age." And if that's the into my extreme age." And if that's the case, it's going to require some things case, it's going to require some things case, it's going to require some things of you guys. Uh and and you need to be of you guys. Uh and and you need to be of you guys. Uh and and you need to be able to work together and uh I hope you able to work together and uh I hope you able to work together and uh I hope you will be able to. But like what I've will be able to. But like what I've will be able to. But like what I've learned in the caregiving toward the learned in the caregiving toward the learned in the caregiving toward the parents piece is that whereas my mindset parents piece is that whereas my mindset parents piece is that whereas my mindset going into it was it's all cost like going into it was it's all cost like going into it was it's all cost like it's all self-sacrifice. it's all self-sacrifice. it's all self-sacrifice. Um then I learned that's actually so far Um then I learned that's actually so far Um then I learned that's actually so far from the truth that it that there is a from the truth that it that there is a from the truth that it that there is a benefit that flows downward to the benefit that flows downward to the benefit that flows downward to the caregiver as well. And I I think I've caregiver as well. And I I think I've caregiver as well. And I I think I've actually started to think in terms of actually started to think in terms of actually started to think in terms of like I don't want to refuse my children like I don't want to refuse my children like I don't want to refuse my children the opportunity to learn the beautiful the opportunity to learn the beautiful the opportunity to learn the beautiful things that I've learned even though it things that I've learned even though it things that I've learned even though it requires requires requires a lot of vulnerability on the part of an a lot of vulnerability on the part of an a lot of vulnerability on the part of an aging parent to let a child into that aging parent to let a child into that aging parent to let a child into that space. space. space. >> Yeah, that's really good. So you've >> Yeah, that's really good. So you've >> Yeah, that's really good. So you've you've I've walked it with my you've I've walked it with my you've I've walked it with my mother-in-law. Um my father-in-law died mother-in-law. Um my father-in-law died mother-in-law. Um my father-in-law died young and suddenly so we didn't with him young and suddenly so we didn't with him young and suddenly so we didn't with him and my parents just aren't there yet.

and my parents just aren't there yet. and my parents just aren't there yet. But they're still winning at pickle But they're still winning at pickle But they're still winning at pickle ball. ball. ball. >> Oh my gosh, how great. It's >> Oh my gosh, how great. It's >> Oh my gosh, how great. It's >> that is amazing. >> that is amazing. >> that is amazing. >> Yeah, they're they're unbelievable. But >> Yeah, they're they're unbelievable. But >> Yeah, they're they're unbelievable. But it's wonderful. But but what advice it's wonderful. But but what advice it's wonderful. But but what advice would you have for our listeners? You would you have for our listeners? You would you have for our listeners? You know, we're talking about siblings and know, we're talking about siblings and know, we're talking about siblings and so so so >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So caring for if if you have a sibling, >> So caring for if if you have a sibling, >> So caring for if if you have a sibling, not everybody has a sibling in caring not everybody has a sibling in caring not everybody has a sibling in caring for their aging parents, um which comes for their aging parents, um which comes for their aging parents, um which comes with its own burden, right? But also you with its own burden, right? But also you with its own burden, right? But also you get to navigate all the decisions. But get to navigate all the decisions. But get to navigate all the decisions. But but when I mean there's there's you know but when I mean there's there's you know but when I mean there's there's you know hardship both ways but but for those hardship both ways but but for those hardship both ways but but for those that are trying to navigate that are trying to navigate that are trying to navigate uh decisionm regarding aging parents uh decisionm regarding aging parents uh decisionm regarding aging parents with their siblings. Um that's something with their siblings. Um that's something with their siblings. Um that's something that's a space you've been in and that's a space you've been in and that's a space you've been in and Melissa and I really haven't yet and I Melissa and I really haven't yet and I Melissa and I really haven't yet and I know a lot of our listeners haven't yet know a lot of our listeners haven't yet know a lot of our listeners haven't yet and so what what would you say? Yeah, I and so what what would you say? Yeah, I and so what what would you say? Yeah, I think things get tactical really fast. think things get tactical really fast. think things get tactical really fast. you know, especially if there's been a you know, especially if there's been a you know, especially if there's been a sudden health crisis and you're just sudden health crisis and you're just sudden health crisis and you're just having to make a lot of decisions. And having to make a lot of decisions. And having to make a lot of decisions. And so, I think as many conversations as you so, I think as many conversations as you so, I think as many conversations as you can have philosophically about how can have philosophically about how can have philosophically about how you're going to tackle um the aging you're going to tackle um the aging you're going to tackle um the aging process with parents are really helpful process with parents are really helpful process with parents are really helpful because people come at this from very because people come at this from very because people come at this from very different spaces. And I'll just say for different spaces. And I'll just say for different spaces. And I'll just say for listeners, the most helpful book that I listeners, the most helpful book that I listeners, the most helpful book that I have read on this is called Being Mortal have read on this is called Being Mortal have read on this is called Being Mortal by Atul Gawanda. And it what it does is by Atul Gawanda. And it what it does is by Atul Gawanda. And it what it does is I think what happens is the the kids I think what happens is the the kids I think what happens is the the kids step into the caregiver space and think step into the caregiver space and think step into the caregiver space and think now I need to parent my parents.

now I need to parent my parents. now I need to parent my parents. >> But your parents are not children. They >> But your parents are not children. They >> But your parents are not children. They they may have a body that is returning they may have a body that is returning they may have a body that is returning to a more childlike um set of limits to a more childlike um set of limits to a more childlike um set of limits than they have had in in full-blown than they have had in in full-blown than they have had in in full-blown adulthood. But inside their interior adulthood. But inside their interior adulthood. But inside their interior life is that of an adult. And that means life is that of an adult. And that means life is that of an adult. And that means that they as much agency as they can that they as much agency as they can that they as much agency as they can retain around their wishes and their retain around their wishes and their retain around their wishes and their preferences. If the whole sibling group preferences. If the whole sibling group preferences. If the whole sibling group can recognize that or at least entrust can recognize that or at least entrust can recognize that or at least entrust one of the siblings with carrying that one of the siblings with carrying that one of the siblings with carrying that part of the conversation, part of the conversation, part of the conversation, then [clears throat] it maintains the then [clears throat] it maintains the then [clears throat] it maintains the interests of both the aged or the aging interests of both the aged or the aging interests of both the aged or the aging and the caregiver in a way that is um is and the caregiver in a way that is um is and the caregiver in a way that is um is a recognition of the humanity of a recognition of the humanity of a recognition of the humanity of everybody involved. And so, you know, everybody involved. And so, you know, everybody involved. And so, you know, again, I I've talked about how with my again, I I've talked about how with my again, I I've talked about how with my mom, I would constantly tell her, mom, I would constantly tell her, mom, I would constantly tell her, "You're a person to love, not a problem "You're a person to love, not a problem "You're a person to love, not a problem to solve." Which is not to say that to solve." Which is not to say that to solve." Which is not to say that there aren't very real problems that there aren't very real problems that there aren't very real problems that have to be solved as you walk through have to be solved as you walk through have to be solved as you walk through the process of caring for aging parents, the process of caring for aging parents, the process of caring for aging parents, but paramount is to keep at the center but paramount is to keep at the center but paramount is to keep at the center of that. This is a person, you know, of that. This is a person, you know, of that. This is a person, you know, this is a person who's facing um the the this is a person who's facing um the the this is a person who's facing um the the unavoidable human suffering that comes unavoidable human suffering that comes unavoidable human suffering that comes with age. like that you may have avoided with age. like that you may have avoided with age. like that you may have avoided human suffering in some earlier stage of human suffering in some earlier stage of human suffering in some earlier stage of life but if you live to extreme age no life but if you live to extreme age no life but if you live to extreme age no one escapes you know the the physical one escapes you know the the physical one escapes you know the the physical limitations that some people encounter limitations that some people encounter limitations that some people encounter at at earlier stages and uh and so you at at earlier stages and uh and so you at at earlier stages and uh and so you think about how how do I want how would think about how how do I want how would think about how how do I want how would I want to be treated you know if I were I want to be treated you know if I were I want to be treated you know if I were dealing with the loss and the grief

dealing with the loss and the grief dealing with the loss and the grief associated with that and so as much as associated with that and so as much as associated with that and so as much as siblings can have those conversations siblings can have those conversations siblings can have those conversations before the again it's kind of like when before the again it's kind of like when before the again it's kind of like when you're resolving conflict between you're resolving conflict between you're resolving conflict between siblings have the conversations when siblings have the conversations when siblings have the conversations when you're not in crisis you're not in crisis you're not in crisis So that if slash when the crisis point So that if slash when the crisis point So that if slash when the crisis point comes, there's going to be a a a form of comes, there's going to be a a a form of comes, there's going to be a a a form of discussion and a form of decision-m that discussion and a form of decision-m that discussion and a form of decision-m that has more to do with maintaining has more to do with maintaining has more to do with maintaining someone's humanity than just dealing someone's humanity than just dealing someone's humanity than just dealing with the problem at hand. I commend the with the problem at hand. I commend the with the problem at hand. I commend the book, too. It was so good. I was just book, too. It was so good. I was just book, too. It was so good. I was just talking to my sister-in-law about it talking to my sister-in-law about it talking to my sister-in-law about it this weekend. It just it kind of shifted this weekend. It just it kind of shifted this weekend. It just it kind of shifted the paradigm for me, like you were the paradigm for me, like you were the paradigm for me, like you were saying, into the importance of giving saying, into the importance of giving saying, into the importance of giving and allowing the maintenance of agency and allowing the maintenance of agency and allowing the maintenance of agency versus kind of the prioritization of versus kind of the prioritization of versus kind of the prioritization of keeping them safe no matter what. Yes. keeping them safe no matter what. Yes. keeping them safe no matter what. Yes. How do you hold those things together? How do you hold those things together? How do you hold those things together? And how do you um I remember when we And how do you um I remember when we And how do you um I remember when we were caring for my mother-in-law saying were caring for my mother-in-law saying were caring for my mother-in-law saying to the other to my husband's siblings, to the other to my husband's siblings, to the other to my husband's siblings, you know, because they would almost you know, because they would almost you know, because they would almost prioritize her agency above everybody prioritize her agency above everybody prioritize her agency above everybody else. And I'm like, "Oh, her voice else. And I'm like, "Oh, her voice else. And I'm like, "Oh, her voice matters, but our voice, like it's it's a matters, but our voice, like it's it's a matters, but our voice, like it's it's a group decision where everybody's group decision where everybody's group decision where everybody's situation needs to play into it. You situation needs to play into it. You situation needs to play into it. You need to be able to have those need to be able to have those need to be able to have those conversations." But a book like that conversations." But a book like that conversations." But a book like that really does, we'll put a link in the really does, we'll put a link in the really does, we'll put a link in the show notes, but it really does allow show notes, but it really does allow show notes, but it really does allow those conversations to start on a those conversations to start on a those conversations to start on a similar foundation. Jen, thank you for similar foundation. Jen, thank you for similar foundation. Jen, thank you for joining us again on the deep dish. Uh, joining us again on the deep dish. Uh, joining us again on the deep dish. Uh, we have one last question for you today.

we have one last question for you today. we have one last question for you today. And you know, I have a choice here. I And you know, I have a choice here. I And you know, I have a choice here. I could ask a snarky one or a nice one. I could ask a snarky one or a nice one. I could ask a snarky one or a nice one. I think I'm so torn, but I think I'm going think I'm so torn, but I think I'm going think I'm so torn, but I think I'm going to go ahead and ask the nice one because to go ahead and ask the nice one because to go ahead and ask the nice one because it'll be more edifying. But what is your it'll be more edifying. But what is your it'll be more edifying. But what is your favorite thing to do with your siblings favorite thing to do with your siblings favorite thing to do with your siblings when you get together? I think it's to when you get together? I think it's to when you get together? I think it's to uh laugh just we my family is extremely uh laugh just we my family is extremely uh laugh just we my family is extremely funny. People have really really funny. People have really really funny. People have really really well-developed senses of humor which at well-developed senses of humor which at well-developed senses of humor which at times we have yielded us wield as as times we have yielded us wield as as times we have yielded us wield as as weapons against each other but we're a weapons against each other but we're a weapons against each other but we're a lot older now. And so I think just lot older now. And so I think just lot older now. And so I think just laughing about those shared experiences laughing about those shared experiences laughing about those shared experiences and memories is some of our favorite uh and memories is some of our favorite uh and memories is some of our favorite uh uh pastime. And then also we you know we uh pastime. And then also we you know we uh pastime. And then also we you know we have high high trust at this point. So, have high high trust at this point. So, have high high trust at this point. So, we are able to poke fun at each other in we are able to poke fun at each other in we are able to poke fun at each other in ways that you can't do with anybody else ways that you can't do with anybody else ways that you can't do with anybody else that you know. And that's another thing that you know. And that's another thing that you know. And that's another thing that we really have enjoyed doing. Oh, I that we really have enjoyed doing. Oh, I that we really have enjoyed doing. Oh, I love that. Well, friends, we hope you've love that. Well, friends, we hope you've love that. Well, friends, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Deep Dish enjoyed this episode of The Deep Dish enjoyed this episode of The Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If so, like, from the Gospel Coalition. If so, like, from the Gospel Coalition. If so, like, subscribe, [music] subscribe, [music] subscribe, [music] share with a friend, and we will see you share with a friend, and we will see you share with a friend, and we will see you guys next time.