Waiting for God in the Gaps [The Deep Dish - Ep. 18]

Waiting on God is learning to live on Waiting on God is learning to live on what I know to be true about God. So, what I know to be true about God. So, what I know to be true about God. So, I'm looking to him when I don't know I'm looking to him when I don't know I'm looking to him when I don't know what's true about my life. In those gap what's true about my life. In those gap what's true about my life. In those gap moments, instead of being frustrated moments, instead of being frustrated moments, instead of being frustrated that I'm not in control, I use him as an that I'm not in control, I use him as an that I'm not in control, I use him as an opportunity to hope in the Lord, remind opportunity to hope in the Lord, remind opportunity to hope in the Lord, remind myself who he is. That's what it means myself who he is. That's what it means myself who he is. That's what it means to wait on the Lord. [Music] [Music] Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Doctor. I'm here truths. I'm Courtney Doctor. I'm here truths. I'm Courtney Doctor. I'm here with my friend and co-host Melissa with my friend and co-host Melissa with my friend and co-host Melissa Krueger. And our guest today is Mark Krueger. And our guest today is Mark Krueger. And our guest today is Mark Rogop, the president, the new president, Rogop, the president, the new president, Rogop, the president, the new president, the president we're all excited about of the president we're all excited about of the president we're all excited about of the Gospel Coalition. Um, and Mark, the Gospel Coalition. Um, and Mark, the Gospel Coalition. Um, and Mark, we're so glad you're here today. We're we're so glad you're here today. We're we're so glad you're here today. We're going to be talking about waiting with going to be talking about waiting with going to be talking about waiting with you. Um, but before we do that, we would you. Um, but before we do that, we would you. Um, but before we do that, we would love to get to know you a little bit. love to get to know you a little bit. love to get to know you a little bit. Even though we have gotten to know you a Even though we have gotten to know you a Even though we have gotten to know you a little bit, we'd love for our audience little bit, we'd love for our audience little bit, we'd love for our audience to get to know you a little bit. So, can to get to know you a little bit. So, can to get to know you a little bit. So, can you just give us a little bit about who you just give us a little bit about who you just give us a little bit about who is Mark? Um, and let our audience get to is Mark? Um, and let our audience get to is Mark? Um, and let our audience get to know you a little.

know you a little. know you a little. >> Happy to. And thanks for having me on >> Happy to. And thanks for having me on >> Happy to. And thanks for having me on this uh program. Deep dish is uh pretty this uh program. Deep dish is uh pretty this uh program. Deep dish is uh pretty amazing. You guys are doing a great job. amazing. You guys are doing a great job. amazing. You guys are doing a great job. So, really honored to be here. So, I've So, really honored to be here. So, I've So, really honored to be here. So, I've been uh married to my dear wife uh Sarah been uh married to my dear wife uh Sarah been uh married to my dear wife uh Sarah for over 38 years. We have uh four uh for over 38 years. We have uh four uh for over 38 years. We have uh four uh grown children. We have three adult sons grown children. We have three adult sons grown children. We have three adult sons who are married, which means right now I who are married, which means right now I who are married, which means right now I have uh three grandkids, soon to be four have uh three grandkids, soon to be four have uh three grandkids, soon to be four at the end of this month. And then uh at the end of this month. And then uh at the end of this month. And then uh have a daughter who is in uh college. have a daughter who is in uh college. have a daughter who is in uh college. She just completed her freshman year. um She just completed her freshman year. um She just completed her freshman year. um happy pastor for 17 years at College happy pastor for 17 years at College happy pastor for 17 years at College Park Church before taking a call to Park Church before taking a call to Park Church before taking a call to become the president of the Gospel become the president of the Gospel become the president of the Gospel Coalition, which is like my dream job. Coalition, which is like my dream job. Coalition, which is like my dream job. Love to work with churches and pastors Love to work with churches and pastors Love to work with churches and pastors and ministry leaders all around the and ministry leaders all around the and ministry leaders all around the country and uh super excited about uh country and uh super excited about uh country and uh super excited about uh the role that God has allowed me to um the role that God has allowed me to um the role that God has allowed me to um to be in. Uh done some writing, some to be in. Uh done some writing, some to be in. Uh done some writing, some thinking, uh some speaking on a variety thinking, uh some speaking on a variety thinking, uh some speaking on a variety of subjects over the last 30 years. And of subjects over the last 30 years. And of subjects over the last 30 years. And uh one we're talking about today is uh one we're talking about today is uh one we're talking about today is pretty important in my life because I'm pretty important in my life because I'm pretty important in my life because I'm really bad at it, which is why I wrote a really bad at it, which is why I wrote a really bad at it, which is why I wrote a book about it.

book about it. book about it. >> It is such an important topic, isn't it? >> It is such an important topic, isn't it? >> It is such an important topic, isn't it? So, we're going to be talking about So, we're going to be talking about So, we're going to be talking about waiting. And waiting is something that waiting. And waiting is something that waiting. And waiting is something that we wait for little things. I was just we wait for little things. I was just we wait for little things. I was just waiting. I was kind of rushing into this waiting. I was kind of rushing into this waiting. I was kind of rushing into this conversation and so I was waiting for my conversation and so I was waiting for my conversation and so I was waiting for my kettle to boil so I could make some tea kettle to boil so I could make some tea kettle to boil so I could make some tea because I really like to have something because I really like to have something because I really like to have something to drink while we talk. Um but we wait to drink while we talk. Um but we wait to drink while we talk. Um but we wait for really big things too and waiting for really big things too and waiting for really big things too and waiting can just be so hard. But do any do can just be so hard. But do any do can just be so hard. But do any do either of you I want to hear something either of you I want to hear something either of you I want to hear something from both of you. Just a small thing from both of you. Just a small thing from both of you. Just a small thing that you really hate waiting for and how that you really hate waiting for and how that you really hate waiting for and how you respond. So mine would be traffic. you respond. So mine would be traffic. you respond. So mine would be traffic. I'm I'm really not the best version of I'm I'm really not the best version of I'm I'm really not the best version of myself in traffic. Um it's not it's myself in traffic. Um it's not it's myself in traffic. Um it's not it's really where the Lord is working on really where the Lord is working on really where the Lord is working on sanctifying me. But what is something sanctifying me. But what is something sanctifying me. But what is something small that you hate waiting for? small that you hate waiting for? small that you hate waiting for? >> I was going to say the same thing, >> I was going to say the same thing, >> I was going to say the same thing, Courtney. So I'll just go ahead. I have Courtney. So I'll just go ahead. I have Courtney. So I'll just go ahead. I have a really short drive to my kid's school. a really short drive to my kid's school. a really short drive to my kid's school. It should be five minutes, but in my It should be five minutes, but in my It should be five minutes, but in my city that turns to 20 minutes, and it city that turns to 20 minutes, and it city that turns to 20 minutes, and it always happens to be when my child is always happens to be when my child is always happens to be when my child is having her soccer game. And the problem having her soccer game. And the problem having her soccer game. And the problem with that is I'm often late.

with that is I'm often late. with that is I'm often late. And so I forget it's going to now take And so I forget it's going to now take And so I forget it's going to now take me 20 to 25 minutes. And I'm more mad at me 20 to 25 minutes. And I'm more mad at me 20 to 25 minutes. And I'm more mad at myself. You know, I'm mad all these myself. You know, I'm mad all these myself. You know, I'm mad all these people live in Charlotte. I'm upset that people live in Charlotte. I'm upset that people live in Charlotte. I'm upset that they moved here and they all need to go they moved here and they all need to go they moved here and they all need to go back to wherever they lived before and back to wherever they lived before and back to wherever they lived before and so it's just it's not it's not good. so it's just it's not it's not good. so it's just it's not it's not good. Yeah. So traffic brings it out. Yeah. So traffic brings it out. Yeah. So traffic brings it out. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> What about you, Mark? >> What about you, Mark? >> What about you, Mark? >> I hate I hate waiting on a phone call >> I hate I hate waiting on a phone call >> I hate I hate waiting on a phone call for technical support. I don't know why for technical support. I don't know why for technical support. I don't know why it takes so long and then it it just it it takes so long and then it it just it it takes so long and then it it just it it feels to me like it takes three times it feels to me like it takes three times it feels to me like it takes three times as long as what it should. I actually as long as what it should. I actually as long as what it should. I actually changed my answer. Waiting to get to a changed my answer. Waiting to get to a changed my answer. Waiting to get to a real person on that. real person on that. real person on that. >> When you press all the buttons and I'm >> When you press all the buttons and I'm >> When you press all the buttons and I'm like zero, zero, zero. And whatever the like zero, zero, zero. And whatever the like zero, zero, zero. And whatever the music is, it just starts no matter how music is, it just starts no matter how music is, it just starts no matter how subtle and soft it's supposed to be, it subtle and soft it's supposed to be, it subtle and soft it's supposed to be, it becomes so irritating, right? Okay. becomes so irritating, right? Okay. becomes so irritating, right? Okay. Well, obviously not all waiting is that Well, obviously not all waiting is that Well, obviously not all waiting is that trivial and um not not certainly trivial and um not not certainly trivial and um not not certainly provokes us at different levels. So, I provokes us at different levels. So, I provokes us at different levels. So, I love the title of the book. waiting love the title of the book. waiting love the title of the book. waiting isn't a waste. So, can you just start isn't a waste. So, can you just start isn't a waste. So, can you just start off by explaining what you mean by that off by explaining what you mean by that off by explaining what you mean by that and then a time in your life that and then a time in your life that and then a time in your life that waiting wasn't wasted?

waiting wasn't wasted? waiting wasn't wasted? >> Yeah. The reason for the title is >> Yeah. The reason for the title is >> Yeah. The reason for the title is because I think that most of us have a because I think that most of us have a because I think that most of us have a negative bias against waiting. We don't negative bias against waiting. We don't negative bias against waiting. We don't like it. It's uncomfortable. It's hard. like it. It's uncomfortable. It's hard. like it. It's uncomfortable. It's hard. and the society and culture in which we and the society and culture in which we and the society and culture in which we live is increasingly monetizing and live is increasingly monetizing and live is increasingly monetizing and incentivizing shorter weight times. So I incentivizing shorter weight times. So I incentivizing shorter weight times. So I think for most of us, we think and feel think for most of us, we think and feel think for most of us, we think and feel instinctively that when we have to wait, instinctively that when we have to wait, instinctively that when we have to wait, it's bad. And as a result, we often it's bad. And as a result, we often it's bad. And as a result, we often waste those particular gap moments waste those particular gap moments waste those particular gap moments because they're all throughout our because they're all throughout our because they're all throughout our lives. They're actually designed by God lives. They're actually designed by God lives. They're actually designed by God to send some really important messages. to send some really important messages. to send some really important messages. And the Bible has all kinds of things to And the Bible has all kinds of things to And the Bible has all kinds of things to say, not only commending waiting, but say, not only commending waiting, but say, not only commending waiting, but also commanding waiting, specifically also commanding waiting, specifically also commanding waiting, specifically waiting on the Lord. So, you ask the waiting on the Lord. So, you ask the waiting on the Lord. So, you ask the question, uh, when was a time when I question, uh, when was a time when I question, uh, when was a time when I didn't waste my waiting? You know, I didn't waste my waiting? You know, I didn't waste my waiting? You know, I think that in the process of trying to think that in the process of trying to think that in the process of trying to discern God's calling to this role as discern God's calling to this role as discern God's calling to this role as the president of TGC, there were long the president of TGC, there were long the president of TGC, there were long seasons where just having to to wait and seasons where just having to to wait and seasons where just having to to wait and pray and seek him. And I look back on pray and seek him. And I look back on pray and seek him. And I look back on that season uh in large part because of that season uh in large part because of that season uh in large part because of the work that I did on the book really the work that I did on the book really the work that I did on the book really helped me to not I'll put this to not helped me to not I'll put this to not helped me to not I'll put this to not waste every moment of waiting. Certainly waste every moment of waiting. Certainly waste every moment of waiting. Certainly there were some but I think I would look there were some but I think I would look there were some but I think I would look back on that season. I think my wife back on that season. I think my wife back on that season. I think my wife would agree that was a better than would agree that was a better than would agree that was a better than average experience of waiting on the average experience of waiting on the average experience of waiting on the Lord and in large part because of the Lord and in large part because of the Lord and in large part because of the things that I learned by putting the things that I learned by putting the things that I learned by putting the book together.

book together. book together. >> Can I ask a follow-up question to that? >> Can I ask a follow-up question to that? >> Can I ask a follow-up question to that? What do you mean when you say waiting on What do you mean when you say waiting on What do you mean when you say waiting on the Lord? You know, that is all over the Lord? You know, that is all over the Lord? You know, that is all over scripture. Wait for the Lord. Wait for scripture. Wait for the Lord. Wait for scripture. Wait for the Lord. Wait for the Lord. You know, be strong and take the Lord. You know, be strong and take the Lord. You know, be strong and take heart. Wait for the Lord. What What does heart. Wait for the Lord. What What does heart. Wait for the Lord. What What does that mean? Is it passive? Is it active? that mean? Is it passive? Is it active? that mean? Is it passive? Is it active? I'd love to hear more some thoughts on I'd love to hear more some thoughts on I'd love to hear more some thoughts on that. that. that. >> Yeah. So, it's not passive. uh because >> Yeah. So, it's not passive. uh because >> Yeah. So, it's not passive. uh because waiting by definition means that I'm waiting by definition means that I'm waiting by definition means that I'm looking to something that I have an looking to something that I have an looking to something that I have an expectation or also in the uh Bible expectation or also in the uh Bible expectation or also in the uh Bible particular in the Old Testament waiting particular in the Old Testament waiting particular in the Old Testament waiting and hope are actually uh they come from and hope are actually uh they come from and hope are actually uh they come from the same word. They mean sort of the the same word. They mean sort of the the same word. They mean sort of the same thing and in our particular context same thing and in our particular context same thing and in our particular context waiting and hope do not go together at waiting and hope do not go together at waiting and hope do not go together at all. So waiting on the Lord essentially all. So waiting on the Lord essentially all. So waiting on the Lord essentially means hoping in the Lord. I'm looking to means hoping in the Lord. I'm looking to means hoping in the Lord. I'm looking to him. And so I define it in the book as him. And so I define it in the book as him. And so I define it in the book as waiting on God is learning to live on waiting on God is learning to live on waiting on God is learning to live on what I know to be true about God. So I'm what I know to be true about God. So I'm what I know to be true about God. So I'm looking to him when I don't know what's looking to him when I don't know what's looking to him when I don't know what's true about my life. In those gap moments true about my life. In those gap moments true about my life. In those gap moments instead of being frustrated that I'm not instead of being frustrated that I'm not instead of being frustrated that I'm not in control, I use him as an opportunity in control, I use him as an opportunity in control, I use him as an opportunity to hope in the Lord. Remind myself who to hope in the Lord. Remind myself who to hope in the Lord. Remind myself who he is. That's what it means to wait on he is. That's what it means to wait on he is. That's what it means to wait on the Lord.

the Lord. the Lord. >> Oh, that idea of hoping and and where >> Oh, that idea of hoping and and where >> Oh, that idea of hoping and and where our expectations lie. And I just thought our expectations lie. And I just thought our expectations lie. And I just thought before I ask you the next question, I before I ask you the next question, I before I ask you the next question, I just thought it might be really helpful just thought it might be really helpful just thought it might be really helpful for our listeners to even just bring to for our listeners to even just bring to for our listeners to even just bring to mind three things that you are currently mind three things that you are currently mind three things that you are currently waiting on. And so be thinking about waiting on. And so be thinking about waiting on. And so be thinking about those things as we have um this those things as we have um this those things as we have um this conversation. But Mark, you you talked conversation. But Mark, you you talked conversation. But Mark, you you talked about expectations. So how do those about expectations. So how do those about expectations. So how do those expectations affect how we wait? I expectations affect how we wait? I expectations affect how we wait? I remember when we were first married, remember when we were first married, remember when we were first married, Craig and I realized that our biggest Craig and I realized that our biggest Craig and I realized that our biggest disagreements were on the weekends disagreements were on the weekends disagreements were on the weekends because we had these unspoken because we had these unspoken because we had these unspoken expectations over what the weekend was expectations over what the weekend was expectations over what the weekend was going to like look like for each of us going to like look like for each of us going to like look like for each of us and we didn't say them to each other. and we didn't say them to each other. and we didn't say them to each other. But then we'd be super frustrated when But then we'd be super frustrated when But then we'd be super frustrated when all of a sudden he was, you know, doing all of a sudden he was, you know, doing all of a sudden he was, you know, doing a project of remodeling the bathroom and a project of remodeling the bathroom and a project of remodeling the bathroom and I'm like, "No, no, no. We were going to, I'm like, "No, no, no. We were going to, I'm like, "No, no, no. We were going to, you know, go on a hike." So expectations you know, go on a hike." So expectations you know, go on a hike." So expectations and defining them and managing them are and defining them and managing them are and defining them and managing them are huge. But how do they impact and affect huge. But how do they impact and affect huge. But how do they impact and affect what we are waiting for and how we wait? what we are waiting for and how we wait? what we are waiting for and how we wait? >> Well, in the book I talk about a pretty >> Well, in the book I talk about a pretty >> Well, in the book I talk about a pretty signature moment in my life when a a signature moment in my life when a a signature moment in my life when a a counselor asked me that question. He counselor asked me that question. He counselor asked me that question. He asked me, Mark, what are your asked me, Mark, what are your asked me, Mark, what are your expectations for pastoral ministry in expectations for pastoral ministry in expectations for pastoral ministry in light of some things that I was, you light of some things that I was, you light of some things that I was, you know, walking through. And I was like, I know, walking through. And I was like, I know, walking through. And I was like, I don't I don't have expectations. And he don't I don't have expectations. And he don't I don't have expectations. And he chuckled. My wife chuckled. It was kind chuckled. My wife chuckled. It was kind chuckled. My wife chuckled. It was kind of embarrassing. And I know you're not of embarrassing. And I know you're not of embarrassing. And I know you're not supposed to laugh at a counsel like like supposed to laugh at a counsel like like supposed to laugh at a counsel like like what's going on here? And then I what's going on here? And then I what's going on here? And then I realized how silly, even foolish my realized how silly, even foolish my realized how silly, even foolish my answer was. He said, "Mark, of course answer was. He said, "Mark, of course answer was. He said, "Mark, of course you have expectations. Do you think you you have expectations. Do you think you you have expectations. Do you think you can name them?" And then when I began to can name them?" And then when I began to can name them?" And then when I began to think about, well, how did I expect think about, well, how did I expect think about, well, how did I expect ministry or life or church was going to ministry or life or church was going to ministry or life or church was going to work out? As I started to name them, I work out? As I started to name them, I work out? As I started to name them, I realized, wow, these actually have a

realized, wow, these actually have a realized, wow, these actually have a stronger hold on my heart than what I stronger hold on my heart than what I stronger hold on my heart than what I thought they did. And I realized that I thought they did. And I realized that I thought they did. And I realized that I actually do have expectations. It's okay actually do have expectations. It's okay actually do have expectations. It's okay to name them because in naming them I to name them because in naming them I to name them because in naming them I actually identify that they they have a actually identify that they they have a actually identify that they they have a level of control sometimes that I know level of control sometimes that I know level of control sometimes that I know and in some cases for me just not even and in some cases for me just not even and in some cases for me just not even aware the significance of which those aware the significance of which those aware the significance of which those expectations um shaped my emotions and expectations um shaped my emotions and expectations um shaped my emotions and uh and what I was even looking forward uh and what I was even looking forward uh and what I was even looking forward to. I think at the end of the day our to. I think at the end of the day our to. I think at the end of the day our expectations are connected to our expectations are connected to our expectations are connected to our dreams, our desire to control our lives dreams, our desire to control our lives dreams, our desire to control our lives or how we think our life is going to go. or how we think our life is going to go. or how we think our life is going to go. And so uh misplaced expectations uh And so uh misplaced expectations uh And so uh misplaced expectations uh really collide with our vision of what really collide with our vision of what really collide with our vision of what our life is going to be. So control is our life is going to be. So control is our life is going to be. So control is right in the middle of misplaced right in the middle of misplaced right in the middle of misplaced expectations expectations expectations >> and then do we place those expectations >> and then do we place those expectations >> and then do we place those expectations on God? Like our expectation is that he on God? Like our expectation is that he on God? Like our expectation is that he will fulfill all of those, right? that will fulfill all of those, right? that will fulfill all of those, right? that that all of a sudden then that can be so that all of a sudden then that can be so that all of a sudden then that can be so disruptive in that relationship with him disruptive in that relationship with him disruptive in that relationship with him because we're expecting him to be the because we're expecting him to be the because we're expecting him to be the one to um for the outcome. We're one to um for the outcome. We're one to um for the outcome. We're expecting him to produce the outcome expecting him to produce the outcome expecting him to produce the outcome that we're hoping for and that we're, that we're hoping for and that we're, that we're hoping for and that we're, you know, we think we're waiting for.

you know, we think we're waiting for. you know, we think we're waiting for. Melissa, I interrupted you. What did you Melissa, I interrupted you. What did you Melissa, I interrupted you. What did you start to say? No, I I think it's been start to say? No, I I think it's been start to say? No, I I think it's been living life. Mark, I would have answered living life. Mark, I would have answered living life. Mark, I would have answered very similar to you. Like, oh, I don't very similar to you. Like, oh, I don't very similar to you. Like, oh, I don't know where I expected to live. And then know where I expected to live. And then know where I expected to live. And then the Lord took me over to Scotland and I the Lord took me over to Scotland and I the Lord took me over to Scotland and I was like, well, this was not what I was like, well, this was not what I was like, well, this was not what I expected. like this was but I didn't expected. like this was but I didn't expected. like this was but I didn't even know I had a plan or that I really even know I had a plan or that I really even know I had a plan or that I really wanted to live near family and old wanted to live near family and old wanted to live near family and old friends and have deep roots until I was friends and have deep roots until I was friends and have deep roots until I was uprooted. It's like sometimes he uprooted. It's like sometimes he uprooted. It's like sometimes he exposes, oh, you had a lot of exposes, oh, you had a lot of exposes, oh, you had a lot of expectations and I'm going to show you expectations and I'm going to show you expectations and I'm going to show you what they were and now I'm going to what they were and now I'm going to what they were and now I'm going to maybe help you learn to wait on me. I maybe help you learn to wait on me. I maybe help you learn to wait on me. I love this line from your book. Waiting love this line from your book. Waiting love this line from your book. Waiting requires living by what I know about God requires living by what I know about God requires living by what I know about God when I don't know what's true about my when I don't know what's true about my when I don't know what's true about my life. Um, help us understand that life. Um, help us understand that life. Um, help us understand that statement. It's it's got a lot in it. statement. It's it's got a lot in it. statement. It's it's got a lot in it. >> It does. And I think it's really >> It does. And I think it's really >> It does. And I think it's really important and for me it's been the sort important and for me it's been the sort important and for me it's been the sort of the thing that's been most of the thing that's been most of the thing that's been most transformative and that is that when I transformative and that is that when I transformative and that is that when I face a gap moment when I don't know face a gap moment when I don't know face a gap moment when I don't know what's going on, I can fill that gap what's going on, I can fill that gap what's going on, I can fill that gap with things like anger, anxiety, apathy.

with things like anger, anxiety, apathy. with things like anger, anxiety, apathy. I can get mad. I can get anxious and I can get mad. I can get anxious and I can get mad. I can get anxious and worry. Or I can just kind of throw up my worry. Or I can just kind of throw up my worry. Or I can just kind of throw up my hands and say, "I don't care." When the hands and say, "I don't care." When the hands and say, "I don't care." When the reality is that gap moment is actually a reality is that gap moment is actually a reality is that gap moment is actually a divinely designed opportunity for me to divinely designed opportunity for me to divinely designed opportunity for me to be reminded who's in control of the be reminded who's in control of the be reminded who's in control of the universe, who's truly sovereign, who can universe, who's truly sovereign, who can universe, who's truly sovereign, who can be trusted, and that all his plans are be trusted, and that all his plans are be trusted, and that all his plans are good in accordance to his overall plan good in accordance to his overall plan good in accordance to his overall plan for the world and for me. So many of us for the world and for me. So many of us for the world and for me. So many of us believe in God's sovereignty, but we believe in God's sovereignty, but we believe in God's sovereignty, but we actually have to live in it in gap actually have to live in it in gap actually have to live in it in gap moments when we don't know what's true. moments when we don't know what's true. moments when we don't know what's true. The other thing is that I found in my The other thing is that I found in my The other thing is that I found in my own journey that those gap moments own journey that those gap moments own journey that those gap moments created within me a overfixation on what created within me a overfixation on what created within me a overfixation on what I didn't know. So the gap moment would I didn't know. So the gap moment would I didn't know. So the gap moment would be like I don't know this and I don't be like I don't know this and I don't be like I don't know this and I don't know that and why isn't this happening d know that and why isn't this happening d know that and why isn't this happening d and in that moment I could actually and in that moment I could actually and in that moment I could actually shift and realize well actually there's shift and realize well actually there's shift and realize well actually there's a lot that I do know. I know who God is. a lot that I do know. I know who God is. a lot that I do know. I know who God is. I know what he's like. I know he's I know what he's like. I know he's I know what he's like. I know he's trustworthy. And by actually reorienting trustworthy. And by actually reorienting trustworthy. And by actually reorienting what I'm thinking about and focusing on, what I'm thinking about and focusing on, what I'm thinking about and focusing on, I can actually transform gap moments I can actually transform gap moments I can actually transform gap moments into opportunities to welcome God into into opportunities to welcome God into into opportunities to welcome God into those spaces, which actually is what his those spaces, which actually is what his those spaces, which actually is what his plan is in the first place. And that's plan is in the first place. And that's plan is in the first place. And that's what it means to wait on the Lord.

what it means to wait on the Lord. what it means to wait on the Lord. >> I love that. And even just even if she's >> I love that. And even just even if she's >> I love that. And even just even if she's saying like so so many of us know and saying like so so many of us know and saying like so so many of us know and believe and even trust that God is believe and even trust that God is believe and even trust that God is sovereign, but so often we don't trust sovereign, but so often we don't trust sovereign, but so often we don't trust that he's good and that his plan is that he's good and that his plan is that he's good and that his plan is going to be good and that as he goes going to be good and that as he goes going to be good and that as he goes about his Romans 8 working all things about his Romans 8 working all things about his Romans 8 working all things together for the good of those who together for the good of those who together for the good of those who believe that that's actually going to be believe that that's actually going to be believe that that's actually going to be good for us. And I think it's in those good for us. And I think it's in those good for us. And I think it's in those gap moments, Mark, that as I look back gap moments, Mark, that as I look back gap moments, Mark, that as I look back on these times of really brutal waiting, on these times of really brutal waiting, on these times of really brutal waiting, honestly, really hard hard gap times. I honestly, really hard hard gap times. I honestly, really hard hard gap times. I call them lag, you know, these brutal call them lag, you know, these brutal call them lag, you know, these brutal lag times in our life. Um it's it's lag times in our life. Um it's it's lag times in our life. Um it's it's where he has when I've done it well, where he has when I've done it well, where he has when I've done it well, when I haven't wasted my waiting. Um when I haven't wasted my waiting. Um when I haven't wasted my waiting. Um it's the roots have grown deeper that I it's the roots have grown deeper that I it's the roots have grown deeper that I have become stronger. I have been more have become stronger. I have been more have become stronger. I have been more rooted and established. I have I have rooted and established. I have I have rooted and established. I have I have grown in maturity. I have I have moved grown in maturity. I have I have moved grown in maturity. I have I have moved from infancy more into adulthood. You from infancy more into adulthood. You from infancy more into adulthood. You know, those are actually like these know, those are actually like these know, those are actually like these beautiful times that were so hard. But beautiful times that were so hard. But beautiful times that were so hard. But on the other side, I know more about who on the other side, I know more about who on the other side, I know more about who God is. And so, so flesh out a little God is. And so, so flesh out a little God is. And so, so flesh out a little bit more because I do think this is bit more because I do think this is bit more because I do think this is where the rubber meets the road for all where the rubber meets the road for all where the rubber meets the road for all of us. So, if we can, you know, we of us. So, if we can, you know, we of us. So, if we can, you know, we affirm this waiting requires, I love affirm this waiting requires, I love affirm this waiting requires, I love that line. Waiting requires living by that line. Waiting requires living by that line. Waiting requires living by what I know about God when I don't know what I know about God when I don't know what I know about God when I don't know what's true about my life. How does what what's true about my life. How does what what's true about my life. How does what we know about God, how can we grow in we know about God, how can we grow in we know about God, how can we grow in that prior to these really hard seasons that prior to these really hard seasons that prior to these really hard seasons of waiting or during these really hard of waiting or during these really hard of waiting or during these really hard seasons of waiting? Like what's helped seasons of waiting? Like what's helped seasons of waiting? Like what's helped you in that?

you in that? you in that? >> Well, what I did is developed a list of >> Well, what I did is developed a list of >> Well, what I did is developed a list of uh verses and statements that relate to uh verses and statements that relate to uh verses and statements that relate to who God is. So call them God is who God is. So call them God is who God is. So call them God is statements or Lord you are. And I list statements or Lord you are. And I list statements or Lord you are. And I list them in the appendix. And one of the them in the appendix. And one of the them in the appendix. And one of the things that I would do is I would just things that I would do is I would just things that I would do is I would just run through a series of verses or run through a series of verses or run through a series of verses or statements that I had committed to statements that I had committed to statements that I had committed to memory uh just to remind my soul, look, memory uh just to remind my soul, look, memory uh just to remind my soul, look, the Lord is a stronghold. I know he's a the Lord is a stronghold. I know he's a the Lord is a stronghold. I know he's a stronghold. The Lord is king. The Lord stronghold. The Lord is king. The Lord stronghold. The Lord is king. The Lord is in his holy temple. The Lord is is in his holy temple. The Lord is is in his holy temple. The Lord is righteous. The Lord is my chosen uh righteous. The Lord is my chosen uh righteous. The Lord is my chosen uh portion. The Lord is my rock, my portion. The Lord is my rock, my portion. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, my deliverer. In fact, Psalm fortress, my deliverer. In fact, Psalm fortress, my deliverer. In fact, Psalm 18 just gives a laundry list. my God, my 18 just gives a laundry list. my God, my 18 just gives a laundry list. my God, my rock and whom I take refuge, my shield, rock and whom I take refuge, my shield, rock and whom I take refuge, my shield, the horn of my salvation, the Lord is my the horn of my salvation, the Lord is my the horn of my salvation, the Lord is my shepherd. So, I find that when I'm in a shepherd. So, I find that when I'm in a shepherd. So, I find that when I'm in a gap moment, if I just start throwing all gap moment, if I just start throwing all gap moment, if I just start throwing all of those Lord is statements at my gap, of those Lord is statements at my gap, of those Lord is statements at my gap, it's amazing how suddenly my attention it's amazing how suddenly my attention it's amazing how suddenly my attention shifts from what I don't know to what I shifts from what I don't know to what I shifts from what I don't know to what I do know. And quite frankly, I know all do know. And quite frankly, I know all do know. And quite frankly, I know all of those things. They're in the back of of those things. They're in the back of of those things. They're in the back of my head, but I don't um use them in a my head, but I don't um use them in a my head, but I don't um use them in a way that fills the gap moment. I'm more way that fills the gap moment. I'm more way that fills the gap moment. I'm more focused on what I don't know about my focused on what I don't know about my focused on what I don't know about my life than what I do know about the Lord.

life than what I do know about the Lord. life than what I do know about the Lord. So for me, it's a very helpful strategy So for me, it's a very helpful strategy So for me, it's a very helpful strategy to shift my focus, learn what it means to shift my focus, learn what it means to shift my focus, learn what it means to turn this into worship, and then to turn this into worship, and then to turn this into worship, and then quite frankly realize that this is going quite frankly realize that this is going quite frankly realize that this is going to be an ongoing, sometimes hourly, to be an ongoing, sometimes hourly, to be an ongoing, sometimes hourly, sometimes minuteby minute, sometimes sometimes minuteby minute, sometimes sometimes minuteby minute, sometimes second by second commitment. I'm not second by second commitment. I'm not second by second commitment. I'm not going to let this gap own me. I'm going going to let this gap own me. I'm going going to let this gap own me. I'm going to use this as an opportunity for God to to use this as an opportunity for God to to use this as an opportunity for God to do what he wants to do in my life. And do what he wants to do in my life. And do what he wants to do in my life. And I'm going to stop being surprised at how I'm going to stop being surprised at how I'm going to stop being surprised at how often I have to wait. Just I need to often I have to wait. Just I need to often I have to wait. Just I need to stop being surprised. Oh, of course I am stop being surprised. Oh, of course I am stop being surprised. Oh, of course I am a human. Guess what? I'm not in control a human. Guess what? I'm not in control a human. Guess what? I'm not in control of everything. That's why I don't like of everything. That's why I don't like of everything. That's why I don't like waiting. So, I just need to be Oh, waiting. So, I just need to be Oh, waiting. So, I just need to be Oh, great. I'm waiting today. Welcome to great. I'm waiting today. Welcome to great. I'm waiting today. Welcome to humanity. humanity. humanity. >> I mean, two little gold mines in that. >> I mean, two little gold mines in that. >> I mean, two little gold mines in that. I'm going to stop being surprised by my I'm going to stop being surprised by my I'm going to stop being surprised by my waiting. And I need to stop I don't know waiting. And I need to stop I don't know waiting. And I need to stop I don't know how you said it exactly, but stop how you said it exactly, but stop how you said it exactly, but stop focusing so much on what I don't know focusing so much on what I don't know focusing so much on what I don't know about my life and start focusing more on about my life and start focusing more on about my life and start focusing more on what I do know about God. Melissa, what what I do know about God. Melissa, what what I do know about God. Melissa, what were you gonna say? were you gonna say? were you gonna say? >> Yeah. No, I I I have gotten to the point >> Yeah. No, I I I have gotten to the point >> Yeah. No, I I I have gotten to the point now where I have to say the gap moment now where I have to say the gap moment now where I have to say the gap moment is actually the moment for faith.

is actually the moment for faith. is actually the moment for faith. >> That's where, and here's the thing, my >> That's where, and here's the thing, my >> That's where, and here's the thing, my faith is not proven to the Lord. He faith is not proven to the Lord. He faith is not proven to the Lord. He proves my faith to me. He proves what is proves my faith to me. He proves what is proves my faith to me. He proves what is true about him in that moment that oh, true about him in that moment that oh, true about him in that moment that oh, actually hoping in the Lord, waiting in actually hoping in the Lord, waiting in actually hoping in the Lord, waiting in the Lord, this changes my experience the Lord, this changes my experience the Lord, this changes my experience today. You of what I'm going through the today. You of what I'm going through the today. You of what I'm going through the promises of God. It's not just for oh in promises of God. It's not just for oh in promises of God. It's not just for oh in the future this will have an answer. It the future this will have an answer. It the future this will have an answer. It actually changes how I experience it actually changes how I experience it actually changes how I experience it today. So I can be patient and joyful today. So I can be patient and joyful today. So I can be patient and joyful and loving and peaceful and kind and and loving and peaceful and kind and and loving and peaceful and kind and gentle because he must have a reason and gentle because he must have a reason and gentle because he must have a reason and it must be for my good. it must be for my good. it must be for my good. >> It it cannot be because the God of all >> It it cannot be because the God of all >> It it cannot be because the God of all the universe has ordained it to be so. the universe has ordained it to be so. the universe has ordained it to be so. But when I hold on to that, I can fight But when I hold on to that, I can fight But when I hold on to that, I can fight for joy and I can understand statements for joy and I can understand statements for joy and I can understand statements like rejoice always, give thanks in all like rejoice always, give thanks in all like rejoice always, give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will. circumstances, for this is God's will. circumstances, for this is God's will. Nothing else makes sense if God isn't Nothing else makes sense if God isn't Nothing else makes sense if God isn't sovereign and God isn't good. I can't sovereign and God isn't good. I can't sovereign and God isn't good. I can't hold on to those promises. And so hold on to those promises. And so hold on to those promises. And so everything you're saying, that gap is everything you're saying, that gap is everything you're saying, that gap is actually the moment of true belief. Um I actually the moment of true belief. Um I actually the moment of true belief. Um I one thing Mark, you had just said a one thing Mark, you had just said a one thing Mark, you had just said a moment ago did spark this memory for me.

moment ago did spark this memory for me. moment ago did spark this memory for me. One thing I've been doing for about the One thing I've been doing for about the One thing I've been doing for about the past three years is saving all of my past three years is saving all of my past three years is saving all of my scraps in a compost bucket right in my scraps in a compost bucket right in my scraps in a compost bucket right in my kitchen. So, I'm saving eggshells, my kitchen. So, I'm saving eggshells, my kitchen. So, I'm saving eggshells, my tea leaves, my banana peels, and then I tea leaves, my banana peels, and then I tea leaves, my banana peels, and then I dump it every well, it should be it dump it every well, it should be it dump it every well, it should be it should be every three days, but let's be should be every three days, but let's be should be every three days, but let's be honest, it's sometimes two weeks. I dump honest, it's sometimes two weeks. I dump honest, it's sometimes two weeks. I dump it in this compost pile in my backyard. it in this compost pile in my backyard. it in this compost pile in my backyard. Well, my son and I um this month, that's Well, my son and I um this month, that's Well, my son and I um this month, that's been going on for three years, just got been going on for three years, just got been going on for three years, just got all the soil out of that and put it in all the soil out of that and put it in all the soil out of that and put it in my garden. And already all that waste my garden. And already all that waste my garden. And already all that waste material is fertilizing the soil. And I material is fertilizing the soil. And I material is fertilizing the soil. And I have the best plants already I've had in have the best plants already I've had in have the best plants already I've had in years because of those waste products. years because of those waste products. years because of those waste products. And I think that's that image I have And I think that's that image I have And I think that's that image I have when you you say waiting isn't a waste. when you you say waiting isn't a waste. when you you say waiting isn't a waste. that what looks like a waste to us is that what looks like a waste to us is that what looks like a waste to us is actually just fertilizer for this next actually just fertilizer for this next actually just fertilizer for this next season. So, I want us to turn actually season. So, I want us to turn actually season. So, I want us to turn actually to scripture and think about some people to scripture and think about some people to scripture and think about some people in scripture who waited um and maybe in scripture who waited um and maybe in scripture who waited um and maybe what can we learn from their examples what can we learn from their examples what can we learn from their examples positively or negatively? What you know positively or negatively? What you know positively or negatively? What you know what and and maybe even answer the what and and maybe even answer the what and and maybe even answer the question, what does biblical waiting question, what does biblical waiting question, what does biblical waiting look like? I mean, I think we can talk look like? I mean, I think we can talk look like? I mean, I think we can talk about what it doesn't look like, but I'd about what it doesn't look like, but I'd about what it doesn't look like, but I'd love to just think through some love to just think through some love to just think through some scriptural examples. And Courtney, you scriptural examples. And Courtney, you scriptural examples. And Courtney, you can join in, too, if you have any of can join in, too, if you have any of can join in, too, if you have any of people who have waited in scripture. I I people who have waited in scripture. I I people who have waited in scripture. I I think when we really start thinking think when we really start thinking think when we really start thinking about it, it's a pretty common

about it, it's a pretty common about it, it's a pretty common experience in scripture. So, what can we experience in scripture. So, what can we experience in scripture. So, what can we learn from their examples as they teach learn from their examples as they teach learn from their examples as they teach us from the Old Testament and from the us from the Old Testament and from the us from the Old Testament and from the New? New? New? >> Yeah. So, first of all, I just want to >> Yeah. So, first of all, I just want to >> Yeah. So, first of all, I just want to go back to your compost analogy because go back to your compost analogy because go back to your compost analogy because there's a lot of people are going to there's a lot of people are going to there's a lot of people are going to resonate with that because they're going resonate with that because they're going resonate with that because they're going to be like, "Yeah, it's useful." And to be like, "Yeah, it's useful." And to be like, "Yeah, it's useful." And guess what? It stinks. Right. So, so guess what? It stinks. Right. So, so guess what? It stinks. Right. So, so waiting is useful even though it's hard waiting is useful even though it's hard waiting is useful even though it's hard and stinky and that process like has a and stinky and that process like has a and stinky and that process like has a really good outcome, but it takes time really good outcome, but it takes time really good outcome, but it takes time and it does you wouldn't you wouldn't and it does you wouldn't you wouldn't and it does you wouldn't you wouldn't think if if someone came over to your think if if someone came over to your think if if someone came over to your house and they saw a bucket of compost, house and they saw a bucket of compost, house and they saw a bucket of compost, they wouldn't think, boy, nice job, they wouldn't think, boy, nice job, they wouldn't think, boy, nice job, Melissa, great. But actually you have Melissa, great. But actually you have Melissa, great. But actually you have something really valuable that's going something really valuable that's going something really valuable that's going to do something important but it takes to do something important but it takes to do something important but it takes time and uh even the uh result of it uh time and uh even the uh result of it uh time and uh even the uh result of it uh at least in the short term doesn't seem at least in the short term doesn't seem at least in the short term doesn't seem to be uh very attractive but it actually to be uh very attractive but it actually to be uh very attractive but it actually is. In fact that's one of the reasons I is. In fact that's one of the reasons I is. In fact that's one of the reasons I think that James uses the example of a think that James uses the example of a think that James uses the example of a farmer when he talks about perseverance farmer when he talks about perseverance farmer when he talks about perseverance and he says very specifically and he says very specifically and he says very specifically to see how the farmer waits for the to see how the farmer waits for the to see how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth being precious fruit of the earth being precious fruit of the earth being patient for it. So if you're a farmer, patient for it. So if you're a farmer, patient for it. So if you're a farmer, you plant and then you have to wait.

you plant and then you have to wait. you plant and then you have to wait. Waiting isn't an accident. Waiting is Waiting isn't an accident. Waiting is Waiting isn't an accident. Waiting is part of what it means to be a farmer. So part of what it means to be a farmer. So part of what it means to be a farmer. So if you don't like waiting, you probably if you don't like waiting, you probably if you don't like waiting, you probably shouldn't be a farmer because waiting is shouldn't be a farmer because waiting is shouldn't be a farmer because waiting is a part of what it means to be an a part of what it means to be an a part of what it means to be an effective um farmer in growing your effective um farmer in growing your effective um farmer in growing your crops. Well, when you look at the crops. Well, when you look at the crops. Well, when you look at the example throughout the Bible, most example throughout the Bible, most example throughout the Bible, most leaders have pretty important waiting leaders have pretty important waiting leaders have pretty important waiting stories. Think of Abraham. Think of stories. Think of Abraham. Think of stories. Think of Abraham. Think of Joseph. think of Moses. Um we go to the Joseph. think of Moses. Um we go to the Joseph. think of Moses. Um we go to the uh the New Testament, you have the uh the New Testament, you have the uh the New Testament, you have the Apostle Paul. Uh we have even the design Apostle Paul. Uh we have even the design Apostle Paul. Uh we have even the design of the gospel itself with the of the gospel itself with the of the gospel itself with the crucifixion and the resurrection. We crucifixion and the resurrection. We crucifixion and the resurrection. We have a gap moment between Good Friday have a gap moment between Good Friday have a gap moment between Good Friday and resurrection day. And God could have and resurrection day. And God could have and resurrection day. And God could have designed the story of the death and designed the story of the death and designed the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus to be tighter in resurrection of Jesus to be tighter in resurrection of Jesus to be tighter in terms of the timeline. And here are the terms of the timeline. And here are the terms of the timeline. And here are the disciples who are in the upper room. disciples who are in the upper room. disciples who are in the upper room. They think their life is over. They They think their life is over. They They think their life is over. They hitch their wagon to the wrong leader. hitch their wagon to the wrong leader. hitch their wagon to the wrong leader. And all they what they don't know is if And all they what they don't know is if And all they what they don't know is if they wait just a little longer, the they wait just a little longer, the they wait just a little longer, the whole narrative is going to flip and whole narrative is going to flip and whole narrative is going to flip and they're going to see the plan. But the they're going to see the plan. But the they're going to see the plan. But the waiting is actually part of God's waiting is actually part of God's waiting is actually part of God's design. So I argue in the book that design. So I argue in the book that design. So I argue in the book that waiting is an essential part of every waiting is an essential part of every waiting is an essential part of every follower of Jesus's life. And actually follower of Jesus's life. And actually follower of Jesus's life. And actually when we look in the Bible, we begin to when we look in the Bible, we begin to when we look in the Bible, we begin to see it all over the place. David would see it all over the place. David would see it all over the place. David would be another example, which is why I think be another example, which is why I think be another example, which is why I think he wrote so much in his Psalms um about he wrote so much in his Psalms um about he wrote so much in his Psalms um about what it means to wait on the Lord what it means to wait on the Lord what it means to wait on the Lord because he had to. He did. and he had to because he had to. He did. and he had to because he had to. He did. and he had to turn those wilderness moments into turn those wilderness moments into turn those wilderness moments into opportunities for worship.

opportunities for worship. opportunities for worship. >> I love that. In some ways, the entire >> I love that. In some ways, the entire >> I love that. In some ways, the entire Christian life is a life of waiting. I Christian life is a life of waiting. I Christian life is a life of waiting. I mean, why why is there this lag time mean, why why is there this lag time mean, why why is there this lag time between salvation and glory? We're left between salvation and glory? We're left between salvation and glory? We're left here, right, for a reason. God's at work here, right, for a reason. God's at work here, right, for a reason. God's at work and he's at work in us and he's at work and he's at work in us and he's at work and he's at work in us and he's at work through us. And so, in some ways, it through us. And so, in some ways, it through us. And so, in some ways, it really just defines our entire kind of really just defines our entire kind of really just defines our entire kind of human existence or Christian existence human existence or Christian existence human existence or Christian existence at least of of waiting. And one of the at least of of waiting. And one of the at least of of waiting. And one of the things that was really helpful for me in things that was really helpful for me in things that was really helpful for me in realizing that is I learned to stop realizing that is I learned to stop realizing that is I learned to stop being surprised when I'm waiting. Like I being surprised when I'm waiting. Like I being surprised when I'm waiting. Like I have this thought that waiting means have this thought that waiting means have this thought that waiting means something's wrong or waiting is I don't something's wrong or waiting is I don't something's wrong or waiting is I don't want to wait. I don't like to wait. But want to wait. I don't like to wait. But want to wait. I don't like to wait. But God builds waiting into my life for his God builds waiting into my life for his God builds waiting into my life for his good pleasure. And so if I can just stop good pleasure. And so if I can just stop good pleasure. And so if I can just stop being surprised about the waiting and being surprised about the waiting and being surprised about the waiting and being upset that I'm waiting, it being upset that I'm waiting, it being upset that I'm waiting, it actually gets you like 8/10en of the way actually gets you like 8/10en of the way actually gets you like 8/10en of the way there to begin embracing it and stop there to begin embracing it and stop there to begin embracing it and stop wasting it. M wasting it. M wasting it. M >> and that's a really good point because >> and that's a really good point because >> and that's a really good point because here's the thing. Attainment doesn't here's the thing. Attainment doesn't here's the thing. Attainment doesn't solve our waiting problem. It's just solve our waiting problem. It's just solve our waiting problem. It's just we're going to keep waiting. So the one we're going to keep waiting. So the one we're going to keep waiting. So the one story I always turn into as a waiter in story I always turn into as a waiter in story I always turn into as a waiter in scripture is Rachel, you know, she's scripture is Rachel, you know, she's scripture is Rachel, you know, she's waiting for a baby. Um waiting and waiting for a baby. Um waiting and waiting for a baby. Um waiting and waiting and her sister is over there waiting and her sister is over there waiting and her sister is over there fertile as the day is long. She's having fertile as the day is long. She's having fertile as the day is long. She's having baby after baby after baby. And she baby after baby after baby. And she baby after baby after baby. And she finally gets Joseph. And I don't know if finally gets Joseph. And I don't know if finally gets Joseph. And I don't know if you remember what the name Joseph means you remember what the name Joseph means you remember what the name Joseph means in Hebrew and it doesn't mean my soul in Hebrew and it doesn't mean my soul in Hebrew and it doesn't mean my soul rejoices in the Lord. My waiting is rejoices in the Lord. My waiting is rejoices in the Lord. My waiting is finally over. It it actually means may finally over. It it actually means may finally over. It it actually means may he add. So she had just gotten this one

he add. So she had just gotten this one he add. So she had just gotten this one baby and she's already like well now I baby and she's already like well now I baby and she's already like well now I need another. need another. need another. >> And you know there's this picture of >> And you know there's this picture of >> And you know there's this picture of yeah I'm going to finally even even yeah I'm going to finally even even yeah I'm going to finally even even let's use the traffic example. Guess let's use the traffic example. Guess let's use the traffic example. Guess what? We're going to get through the red what? We're going to get through the red what? We're going to get through the red light and then there's going to be light and then there's going to be light and then there's going to be another one tomorrow. I mean, I'll be another one tomorrow. I mean, I'll be another one tomorrow. I mean, I'll be honest. On our way to church this honest. On our way to church this honest. On our way to church this Sunday, I said to my husband, "I'm just Sunday, I said to my husband, "I'm just Sunday, I said to my husband, "I'm just so shocked you're still surprised that so shocked you're still surprised that so shocked you're still surprised that sometimes the light is red." sometimes the light is red." sometimes the light is red." That is so funny. Oh, I can't picture That is so funny. Oh, I can't picture That is so funny. Oh, I can't picture Mike being like that at all. Just Mike being like that at all. Just Mike being like that at all. Just kidding. And I was like, cuz he sighed kidding. And I was like, cuz he sighed kidding. And I was like, cuz he sighed with this sigh when the light was red with this sigh when the light was red with this sigh when the light was red that I was like, you know, I mean, that I was like, you know, I mean, that I was like, you know, I mean, sometimes but but it's so that's such a sometimes but but it's so that's such a sometimes but but it's so that's such a good posture, Mark, to just realize good posture, Mark, to just realize good posture, Mark, to just realize we're going to wait. we're going to we're going to wait. we're going to we're going to wait. we're going to wait. wait. wait. >> And our hope, back to the hope and >> And our hope, back to the hope and >> And our hope, back to the hope and expectation thing, that it's not expectation thing, that it's not expectation thing, that it's not actually the thing given or the the the actually the thing given or the the the actually the thing given or the the the thing we're hoping for that when it is thing we're hoping for that when it is thing we're hoping for that when it is when that waiting is over for that when that waiting is over for that when that waiting is over for that thing, that job, that family, that thing, that job, that family, that thing, that job, that family, that whatever it is, the big things and the whatever it is, the big things and the whatever it is, the big things and the little things that we think our soul is little things that we think our soul is little things that we think our soul is going to be satisfied. And that was such going to be satisfied. And that was such going to be satisfied. And that was such a great example of Rachel being like, a great example of Rachel being like, a great example of Rachel being like, "And now I want the next one." It's just "And now I want the next one." It's just "And now I want the next one." It's just so in some ways we bring it on. we bring so in some ways we bring it on. we bring so in some ways we bring it on. we bring it on ourselves. Um, but I also loved it on ourselves. Um, but I also loved it on ourselves. Um, but I also loved the thought, so you said in the the thought, so you said in the the thought, so you said in the beginning, you know, sometimes you just beginning, you know, sometimes you just beginning, you know, sometimes you just say these things out loud, these truths say these things out loud, these truths say these things out loud, these truths about God to bring them to the front of about God to bring them to the front of about God to bring them to the front of your mind. And you know, that that is so your mind. And you know, that that is so your mind. And you know, that that is so true in my life. I remember seasons true in my life. I remember seasons true in my life. I remember seasons where I would stand, it was just at a

where I would stand, it was just at a where I would stand, it was just at a window um upstairs and I would look out. window um upstairs and I would look out. window um upstairs and I would look out. We lived on some acreage and I would We lived on some acreage and I would We lived on some acreage and I would look out and I would just out loud say look out and I would just out loud say look out and I would just out loud say things that I knew were true of God. But things that I knew were true of God. But things that I knew were true of God. But I think also it's important at the at I think also it's important at the at I think also it's important at the at the other end of the waiting to to say the other end of the waiting to to say the other end of the waiting to to say the things that are true about God about the things that are true about God about the things that are true about God about and to be to be grateful because so and to be to be grateful because so and to be to be grateful because so often when we get this thing that we've often when we get this thing that we've often when we get this thing that we've been waiting for then we think you know been waiting for then we think you know been waiting for then we think you know it was just coincidence or or our own it was just coincidence or or our own it was just coincidence or or our own ingenuity or you know we forget like we ingenuity or you know we forget like we ingenuity or you know we forget like we have been begging the Lord for that have been begging the Lord for that have been begging the Lord for that thing and then when in his kindness and thing and then when in his kindness and thing and then when in his kindness and grace he gives us um some semblance of grace he gives us um some semblance of grace he gives us um some semblance of that then I think it's just as important that then I think it's just as important that then I think it's just as important to um to thank him for that. But back to to um to thank him for that. But back to to um to thank him for that. But back to these seasons of waiting, it is so easy these seasons of waiting, it is so easy these seasons of waiting, it is so easy it for me. I'm going to be it for me. I'm going to be it for me. I'm going to be autobiographical here. It is so easy to autobiographical here. It is so easy to autobiographical here. It is so easy to excuse sin in my life when I am in excuse sin in my life when I am in excuse sin in my life when I am in especially a prolonged season of especially a prolonged season of especially a prolonged season of waiting. I bitterness can really I mean waiting. I bitterness can really I mean waiting. I bitterness can really I mean it can fester um that whole idea of it can fester um that whole idea of it can fester um that whole idea of being disappointed in something and then being disappointed in something and then being disappointed in something and then this discontentment this discontentment this discontentment um and it leads to you know disobedience um and it leads to you know disobedience um and it leads to you know disobedience right the pattern of disappointment right the pattern of disappointment right the pattern of disappointment discontentment disobedience that we see discontentment disobedience that we see discontentment disobedience that we see over and over in scripture. I think that over and over in scripture. I think that over and over in scripture. I think that that can really be heightened in seasons that can really be heightened in seasons that can really be heightened in seasons of waiting. And and I know I have gone of waiting. And and I know I have gone of waiting. And and I know I have gone through seasons where I just give myself through seasons where I just give myself through seasons where I just give myself the freedom to let bitterness take root the freedom to let bitterness take root the freedom to let bitterness take root or to to let apathy, all the things you

or to to let apathy, all the things you or to to let apathy, all the things you kind of mentioned in the beginning that kind of mentioned in the beginning that kind of mentioned in the beginning that that it feels kind of justified. And that it feels kind of justified. And that it feels kind of justified. And I've had to come to grips with the fact I've had to come to grips with the fact I've had to come to grips with the fact that that that shows I'm actually angry that that that shows I'm actually angry that that that shows I'm actually angry at the situation and I'm not trusting at the situation and I'm not trusting at the situation and I'm not trusting God. And so, how can we actively fight? God. And so, how can we actively fight? God. And so, how can we actively fight? First of all, am I the only one? First of all, am I the only one? First of all, am I the only one? Secondly, how can we actively fight Secondly, how can we actively fight Secondly, how can we actively fight against sin that takes root more easily against sin that takes root more easily against sin that takes root more easily during seasons of waiting? during seasons of waiting? during seasons of waiting? >> Yeah, you certainly aren't the only one. >> Yeah, you certainly aren't the only one. >> Yeah, you certainly aren't the only one. Uh, that's for sure. Well, in my life, Uh, that's for sure. Well, in my life, Uh, that's for sure. Well, in my life, what's been helpful is to realize that what's been helpful is to realize that what's been helpful is to realize that those gaps create tension. And actually, those gaps create tension. And actually, those gaps create tension. And actually, the word, one of the words for weight is the word, one of the words for weight is the word, one of the words for weight is the Hebrew word kava. And it is the idea the Hebrew word kava. And it is the idea the Hebrew word kava. And it is the idea of a cord that's twisted. And so think of a cord that's twisted. And so think of a cord that's twisted. And so think of it as a twisted or tense hope. So of it as a twisted or tense hope. So of it as a twisted or tense hope. So it's uncomfortable hope. So the first it's uncomfortable hope. So the first it's uncomfortable hope. So the first thing that's been helpful is just to thing that's been helpful is just to thing that's been helpful is just to realize just because I feel realize just because I feel realize just because I feel uncomfortable or just because this is uncomfortable or just because this is uncomfortable or just because this is tense doesn't mean something's wrong or tense doesn't mean something's wrong or tense doesn't mean something's wrong or that it's abnormal. Sometimes just even that it's abnormal. Sometimes just even that it's abnormal. Sometimes just even that feeling kind of leads me to want to that feeling kind of leads me to want to that feeling kind of leads me to want to solve it instead of just being like, solve it instead of just being like, solve it instead of just being like, "No, it's okay just to sit in it and to "No, it's okay just to sit in it and to "No, it's okay just to sit in it and to realize part of that is expectations, realize part of that is expectations, realize part of that is expectations, but part of that is just also being but part of that is just also being but part of that is just also being comfortable with, well, yep, I feel comfortable with, well, yep, I feel comfortable with, well, yep, I feel tense because I'm waiting. No one's done tense because I'm waiting. No one's done tense because I'm waiting. No one's done anything wrong. Nothing is wrong. It's anything wrong. Nothing is wrong. It's anything wrong. Nothing is wrong. It's I'm just waiting." Uh, so the second I'm just waiting." Uh, so the second I'm just waiting." Uh, so the second thing is realizing what my tendency is thing is realizing what my tendency is thing is realizing what my tendency is to use to try and fill that gap moment.

to use to try and fill that gap moment. to use to try and fill that gap moment. So the gap identifies that I'm not in So the gap identifies that I'm not in So the gap identifies that I'm not in control of my life. And I go I have a I control of my life. And I go I have a I control of my life. And I go I have a I have a playbook when I am not in have a playbook when I am not in have a playbook when I am not in control. And there's probably a number control. And there's probably a number control. And there's probably a number of things that we could fill that gap of things that we could fill that gap of things that we could fill that gap with. But I identify at least three. And with. But I identify at least three. And with. But I identify at least three. And there's three A's. Anger, anxiety, and there's three A's. Anger, anxiety, and there's three A's. Anger, anxiety, and apathy. And I think it's helpful to apathy. And I think it's helpful to apathy. And I think it's helpful to identify of those three, which do we go identify of those three, which do we go identify of those three, which do we go to first, second, and third? Um so for to first, second, and third? Um so for to first, second, and third? Um so for me it would be anger. I want to fix it. me it would be anger. I want to fix it. me it would be anger. I want to fix it. Anxiety. I'm going to overthink about Anxiety. I'm going to overthink about Anxiety. I'm going to overthink about it. And if that doesn't work, I'm just it. And if that doesn't work, I'm just it. And if that doesn't work, I'm just gonna give up. I'm not really giving up. gonna give up. I'm not really giving up. gonna give up. I'm not really giving up. It's just self-protective. But just It's just self-protective. But just It's just self-protective. But just realizing, oh, I feel angry and really realizing, oh, I feel angry and really realizing, oh, I feel angry and really I'm angry because I want control because I'm angry because I want control because I'm angry because I want control because I don't like this tension. That that is I don't like this tension. That that is I don't like this tension. That that is helpful to identify uh I think the helpful to identify uh I think the helpful to identify uh I think the cause, the source so that then I can cause, the source so that then I can cause, the source so that then I can embrace like what uh David says in Psalm embrace like what uh David says in Psalm embrace like what uh David says in Psalm 27. Um let your heart take courage all 27. Um let your heart take courage all 27. Um let your heart take courage all you who wait on the Lord. The idea is you who wait on the Lord. The idea is you who wait on the Lord. The idea is borrow courage from the Lord. I have borrow courage from the Lord. I have borrow courage from the Lord. I have this idea of a library and I get to go this idea of a library and I get to go this idea of a library and I get to go into God's grand library. I get to check into God's grand library. I get to check into God's grand library. I get to check the book of courage out and take it with the book of courage out and take it with the book of courage out and take it with me. I get to take his courage with me so me. I get to take his courage with me so me. I get to take his courage with me so that I can stay in that space, trust him that I can stay in that space, trust him that I can stay in that space, trust him in the gap. And then realize at the end in the gap. And then realize at the end in the gap. And then realize at the end of the day what this is about is I of the day what this is about is I of the day what this is about is I actually want to control my life. I want actually want to control my life. I want actually want to control my life. I want to be God. I want to know what's going to be God. I want to know what's going to be God. I want to know what's going on in micro and macro ways. And waiting on in micro and macro ways. And waiting on in micro and macro ways. And waiting challenges that. And I found it helpful challenges that. And I found it helpful challenges that. And I found it helpful just to embrace that and then turn to just to embrace that and then turn to just to embrace that and then turn to God so that I'm not just relentlessly God so that I'm not just relentlessly God so that I'm not just relentlessly trying to get control in any way trying to get control in any way trying to get control in any way possible.

possible. possible. >> I've never thought about that idea >> I've never thought about that idea >> I've never thought about that idea of waiting being part of what God uses of waiting being part of what God uses of waiting being part of what God uses to challenge our own grasps at to challenge our own grasps at to challenge our own grasps at sovereignty and autonomy and all, you sovereignty and autonomy and all, you sovereignty and autonomy and all, you know, control, all the things that we know, control, all the things that we know, control, all the things that we want. But want. But want. But >> absolutely, I did that with my children, >> absolutely, I did that with my children, >> absolutely, I did that with my children, right? I would say you have to wait. right? I would say you have to wait. right? I would say you have to wait. like I know what's better here and I like I know what's better here and I like I know what's better here and I need you to wait and it was meant to need you to wait and it was meant to need you to wait and it was meant to cultivate things in them that yeah I've cultivate things in them that yeah I've cultivate things in them that yeah I've never thought about that before in in never thought about that before in in never thought about that before in in what the Lord is doing in my heart and what the Lord is doing in my heart and what the Lord is doing in my heart and mind of reminding me you're the child mind of reminding me you're the child mind of reminding me you're the child I'm the father you're the servant I'm I'm the father you're the servant I'm I'm the father you're the servant I'm the king like this is going to be our the king like this is going to be our the king like this is going to be our relationship and I love you but but I am relationship and I love you but but I am relationship and I love you but but I am the sovereign one and it's a good thing the sovereign one and it's a good thing the sovereign one and it's a good thing that I'm the sovereign one so I that I'm the sovereign one so I that I'm the sovereign one so I I love that. I love that. I love that. >> Yeah. Most of us don't want to be in >> Yeah. Most of us don't want to be in >> Yeah. Most of us don't want to be in that story line. We don't like we want that story line. We don't like we want that story line. We don't like we want to be the main character. We want to be to be the main character. We want to be to be the main character. We want to be the sovereign one. We we want to be in the sovereign one. We we want to be in the sovereign one. We we want to be in control and we just don't realize no, control and we just don't realize no, control and we just don't realize no, we're actually the children in the we're actually the children in the we're actually the children in the parent relationship story. We're the uh parent relationship story. We're the uh parent relationship story. We're the uh or the child in that relationship. So, or the child in that relationship. So, or the child in that relationship. So, it's a very um uncomfortable and it's a very um uncomfortable and it's a very um uncomfortable and important reminder that oh, news flash, important reminder that oh, news flash, important reminder that oh, news flash, you're actually not in control of the you're actually not in control of the you're actually not in control of the universe. Therefore, you have to wait.

universe. Therefore, you have to wait. universe. Therefore, you have to wait. Which is why I think God built it into Which is why I think God built it into Which is why I think God built it into our humanity. Imagine what we would be our humanity. Imagine what we would be our humanity. Imagine what we would be like if we got everything we wanted in like if we got everything we wanted in like if we got everything we wanted in the timeline in which we wanted it. I the timeline in which we wanted it. I the timeline in which we wanted it. I mean, imagine if you raised kids that mean, imagine if you raised kids that mean, imagine if you raised kids that way. Oh, wow. And yet at the same time, way. Oh, wow. And yet at the same time, way. Oh, wow. And yet at the same time, >> advice in there. >> advice in there. >> advice in there. >> There is. Right. And yet, isn't our >> There is. Right. And yet, isn't our >> There is. Right. And yet, isn't our culture incentivizing, monetizing that? culture incentivizing, monetizing that? culture incentivizing, monetizing that? I mean, is anybody I mean, it's awesome I mean, is anybody I mean, it's awesome I mean, is anybody I mean, it's awesome that I can order something online and that I can order something online and that I can order something online and have it here in six hours, but that's have it here in six hours, but that's have it here in six hours, but that's also changing my expectations. I expect also changing my expectations. I expect also changing my expectations. I expect fast answers fast answers fast answers >> and maturity is really the ability to >> and maturity is really the ability to >> and maturity is really the ability to understand. I don't I wouldn't even pick understand. I don't I wouldn't even pick understand. I don't I wouldn't even pick the right life if I could. the right life if I could. the right life if I could. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> So, so I mean, you know, the older I >> So, so I mean, you know, the older I >> So, so I mean, you know, the older I get, the more I'm like, oh, thank you get, the more I'm like, oh, thank you get, the more I'm like, oh, thank you that I can't Amazon my life really that I can't Amazon my life really that I can't Amazon my life really because that would be terrible. I mean, because that would be terrible. I mean, because that would be terrible. I mean, it would just be terrible. I I I have I it would just be terrible. I I I have I it would just be terrible. I I I have I have seen that. I just want to uh have seen that. I just want to uh have seen that. I just want to uh encourage you both with the alliteration encourage you both with the alliteration encourage you both with the alliteration in that last section. I'm going to in that last section. I'm going to in that last section. I'm going to repeat it. We had disappointment leads repeat it. We had disappointment leads repeat it. We had disappointment leads to discontent and disobedience. And then to discontent and disobedience. And then to discontent and disobedience. And then how does that disobedience take shape how does that disobedience take shape how does that disobedience take shape with anger, anxiety, and apathy? I mean, with anger, anxiety, and apathy? I mean, with anger, anxiety, and apathy? I mean, there's some outline for a talk right there's some outline for a talk right there's some outline for a talk right there. So, I'm I'm very impressed with there. So, I'm I'm very impressed with there. So, I'm I'm very impressed with you both on that. Um, okay. Mark, your you both on that. Um, okay. Mark, your you both on that. Um, okay. Mark, your first book was on lament. And I think first book was on lament. And I think first book was on lament. And I think the the reality about waiting, it is a the the reality about waiting, it is a the the reality about waiting, it is a form of suffering. I mean, in a in a lot form of suffering. I mean, in a in a lot form of suffering. I mean, in a in a lot of ways. And often there's suffering of ways. And often there's suffering of ways. And often there's suffering involved in the waiting. Sometimes we're involved in the waiting. Sometimes we're involved in the waiting. Sometimes we're waiting for waiting for waiting for um

um um we're waiting in a painful season for we're waiting in a painful season for we're waiting in a painful season for relief. Um and so what how would you relief. Um and so what how would you relief. Um and so what how would you describe the um relationship between describe the um relationship between describe the um relationship between lament and waiting you know and and what lament and waiting you know and and what lament and waiting you know and and what what what role does lament play in our what what role does lament play in our what what role does lament play in our waiting on the Lord? waiting on the Lord? waiting on the Lord? >> Yeah sure. So I kind of discovered the >> Yeah sure. So I kind of discovered the >> Yeah sure. So I kind of discovered the waiting track through my study in lament waiting track through my study in lament waiting track through my study in lament and it came out in Lamentations 3. You and it came out in Lamentations 3. You and it came out in Lamentations 3. You know that text that we know so well. know that text that we know so well. know that text that we know so well. It's the pinnacle of the book of It's the pinnacle of the book of It's the pinnacle of the book of Lamentations. The steadfast love of the Lamentations. The steadfast love of the Lamentations. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never Lord never ceases. His mercies never Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. They're new every come to an end. They're new every come to an end. They're new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. The morning. Great is your faithfulness. The morning. Great is your faithfulness. The Lord is my portion, says my soul, Lord is my portion, says my soul, Lord is my portion, says my soul, therefore I hope in him. Amazing. And therefore I hope in him. Amazing. And therefore I hope in him. Amazing. And then it says this, "The Lord is good to then it says this, "The Lord is good to then it says this, "The Lord is good to those who wait for him." And so there's those who wait for him." And so there's those who wait for him." And so there's there's something there about uh there's something there about uh there's something there about uh lamenting lamenting lamenting that do definitely go together. I'd put that do definitely go together. I'd put that do definitely go together. I'd put it this way. Lament is the language that it this way. Lament is the language that it this way. Lament is the language that you use when your gap has been created you use when your gap has been created you use when your gap has been created by grief. So a loss, a sadness. How do by grief. So a loss, a sadness. How do by grief. So a loss, a sadness. How do you talk to God when you are just you talk to God when you are just you talk to God when you are just grieving because of the consequences of grieving because of the consequences of grieving because of the consequences of living in a broken world? Waiting is living in a broken world? Waiting is living in a broken world? Waiting is what you do to gaps. So lament to grief, what you do to gaps. So lament to grief, what you do to gaps. So lament to grief, waiting to gaps. Now gaps are part of a waiting to gaps. Now gaps are part of a waiting to gaps. Now gaps are part of a broken world. Um I don't suspect and broken world. Um I don't suspect and broken world. Um I don't suspect and don't know exactly what it's going to don't know exactly what it's going to don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but I think the glory of the look like, but I think the glory of the look like, but I think the glory of the new heaven and the new earth will be a new heaven and the new earth will be a new heaven and the new earth will be a perpetual experience of no delays in perpetual experience of no delays in perpetual experience of no delays in anything. And it's okay. and right and

anything. And it's okay. and right and anything. And it's okay. and right and beautiful and we won't be in control but beautiful and we won't be in control but beautiful and we won't be in control but we'll have everything that we could we'll have everything that we could we'll have everything that we could possibly want and it's more more and possibly want and it's more more and possibly want and it's more more and more you know Lewis talked about further more you know Lewis talked about further more you know Lewis talked about further up and further in we're just going to up and further in we're just going to up and further in we're just going to keep going further it's going to be keep going further it's going to be keep going further it's going to be amazing um blowing our minds but right amazing um blowing our minds but right amazing um blowing our minds but right now we live in a gap world where things now we live in a gap world where things now we live in a gap world where things don't fit together and waiting is hard don't fit together and waiting is hard don't fit together and waiting is hard and difficult because it reminds us that and difficult because it reminds us that and difficult because it reminds us that not everything fits really well and so not everything fits really well and so not everything fits really well and so that's how those two things are are that's how those two things are are that's how those two things are are connected uh grief often involves some connected uh grief often involves some connected uh grief often involves some element of waiting, but lament is the element of waiting, but lament is the element of waiting, but lament is the language that you apply to sorrow where language that you apply to sorrow where language that you apply to sorrow where I think waiting, a biblical view of I think waiting, a biblical view of I think waiting, a biblical view of waiting on the Lord is what you do when waiting on the Lord is what you do when waiting on the Lord is what you do when you're in a gap world. you're in a gap world. you're in a gap world. >> That's beautiful. Well, Mark, we know >> That's beautiful. Well, Mark, we know >> That's beautiful. Well, Mark, we know that a lot of people listening are going that a lot of people listening are going that a lot of people listening are going through just a wide variety of types of through just a wide variety of types of through just a wide variety of types of waiting and it's it's hard. And so as a waiting and it's it's hard. And so as a waiting and it's it's hard. And so as a pastor, as a brother in Christ, would pastor, as a brother in Christ, would pastor, as a brother in Christ, would you just speak to the women directly and you just speak to the women directly and you just speak to the women directly and offer some encouragement to those who offer some encouragement to those who offer some encouragement to those who are just in a brutal season of of are just in a brutal season of of are just in a brutal season of of waiting?

waiting? waiting? >> Yeah, I get it. It's really hard and >> Yeah, I get it. It's really hard and >> Yeah, I get it. It's really hard and painful and it's never easy and it can painful and it's never easy and it can painful and it's never easy and it can also be uh monumentally uh just also be uh monumentally uh just also be uh monumentally uh just discouraging especially if you're discouraging especially if you're discouraging especially if you're waiting for a long time or if you're waiting for a long time or if you're waiting for a long time or if you're waiting for your entire life. That's not waiting for your entire life. That's not waiting for your entire life. That's not an easy thing to do. So, in no way am I an easy thing to do. So, in no way am I an easy thing to do. So, in no way am I saying that waiting is easy or if you do saying that waiting is easy or if you do saying that waiting is easy or if you do these things it'll be a piece of cake. these things it'll be a piece of cake. these things it'll be a piece of cake. It's still hard and challenging. It's still hard and challenging. It's still hard and challenging. One of the things I talk about in the One of the things I talk about in the One of the things I talk about in the book though is mapping God's book though is mapping God's book though is mapping God's faithfulness. faithfulness. faithfulness. When we look in the Bible, we can see When we look in the Bible, we can see When we look in the Bible, we can see the story of Abraham and Moses and we the story of Abraham and Moses and we the story of Abraham and Moses and we have a 30,000 ft view of their lives. We have a 30,000 ft view of their lives. We have a 30,000 ft view of their lives. We we're not into the dayto-day. Those were we're not into the dayto-day. Those were we're not into the dayto-day. Those were long seasons of difficulty that they long seasons of difficulty that they long seasons of difficulty that they lived. And we get to see the the lived. And we get to see the the lived. And we get to see the the beautiful outworking of God's grace in beautiful outworking of God's grace in beautiful outworking of God's grace in their life over their entire lives. And their life over their entire lives. And their life over their entire lives. And I'm telling you, that story isn't just I'm telling you, that story isn't just I'm telling you, that story isn't just written in their life. It's written in written in their life. It's written in written in their life. It's written in every Christian's life and it's just a every Christian's life and it's just a every Christian's life and it's just a matter of time until God's full picture matter of time until God's full picture matter of time until God's full picture is going to be clear and evident and we is going to be clear and evident and we is going to be clear and evident and we can trust him in these gap moments can trust him in these gap moments can trust him in these gap moments because he's always proved himself to be because he's always proved himself to be because he's always proved himself to be faithful. And if you look back on your faithful. And if you look back on your faithful. And if you look back on your life, you can see that's actually true.

life, you can see that's actually true. life, you can see that's actually true. You can see the ways that you were in You can see the ways that you were in You can see the ways that you were in chapter 1 and now you're in chapter 10 chapter 1 and now you're in chapter 10 chapter 1 and now you're in chapter 10 and you see how they all fit together. and you see how they all fit together. and you see how they all fit together. And eventually God's going to make it And eventually God's going to make it And eventually God's going to make it all plain. It may not be until the new all plain. It may not be until the new all plain. It may not be until the new heavens and new earth, but eventually heavens and new earth, but eventually heavens and new earth, but eventually it's going to be plain. And as a result, it's going to be plain. And as a result, it's going to be plain. And as a result, right now, we can trust him every day to right now, we can trust him every day to right now, we can trust him every day to keep waiting and trusting and living on keep waiting and trusting and living on keep waiting and trusting and living on what we know about him when we don't what we know about him when we don't what we know about him when we don't know what's going on in our lives. know what's going on in our lives. know what's going on in our lives. >> That's I I picture these like fireside >> That's I I picture these like fireside >> That's I I picture these like fireside chats that we're going to have in heaven chats that we're going to have in heaven chats that we're going to have in heaven maybe. I don't know. This is just maybe. I don't know. This is just maybe. I don't know. This is just conjecture obviously where we sit and do conjecture obviously where we sit and do conjecture obviously where we sit and do that and that's part of worship that we that and that's part of worship that we that and that's part of worship that we sit and look back and say, "Oh, wow. sit and look back and say, "Oh, wow. sit and look back and say, "Oh, wow. That's what he was doing." And you know, That's what he was doing." And you know, That's what he was doing." And you know, I think there'll just be this collective I think there'll just be this collective I think there'll just be this collective rejoicing of his goodness was always rejoicing of his goodness was always rejoicing of his goodness was always guiding his sovereignty and and that guiding his sovereignty and and that guiding his sovereignty and and that that is just going to be this collective that is just going to be this collective that is just going to be this collective rejoicing that we get to do when we're rejoicing that we get to do when we're rejoicing that we get to do when we're there. But today we're in the dark and there. But today we're in the dark and there. But today we're in the dark and so we have glimpses of light. But it's so we have glimpses of light. But it's so we have glimpses of light. But it's that picture, that hopeful picture, I that picture, that hopeful picture, I that picture, that hopeful picture, I think that does even shine a light back think that does even shine a light back think that does even shine a light back today to help us to wait. Well, um, today to help us to wait. Well, um, today to help us to wait. Well, um, Mark, we want to thank you so much for Mark, we want to thank you so much for Mark, we want to thank you so much for being a guest on the deep dish and being a guest on the deep dish and being a guest on the deep dish and especially for this conversation. It's especially for this conversation. It's especially for this conversation. It's so helpful. Um, we always wrap up with a so helpful. Um, we always wrap up with a so helpful. Um, we always wrap up with a final question for our guests and today, final question for our guests and today, final question for our guests and today, um, we have a big kind of a big one for um, we have a big kind of a big one for um, we have a big kind of a big one for you. Normally, they're kind of fun. This you. Normally, they're kind of fun. This you. Normally, they're kind of fun. This one's kind of like h one's kind of like h one's kind of like h >> I might throw one in about puppies or >> I might throw one in about puppies or >> I might throw one in about puppies or something. I don't know.

something. I don't know. something. I don't know. >> We haven't talked about puppies yet. >> We haven't talked about puppies yet. >> We haven't talked about puppies yet. >> I know. I know. >> I know. I know. >> I know. I know. >> But we do want to ask this because, you >> But we do want to ask this because, you >> But we do want to ask this because, you know, you're president of TGC. What know, you're president of TGC. What know, you're president of TGC. What excites you most about the future of the excites you most about the future of the excites you most about the future of the Gospel Coalition? Gospel Coalition? Gospel Coalition? >> Well, I've been a pastor for 30 years >> Well, I've been a pastor for 30 years >> Well, I've been a pastor for 30 years and TGC has been enormously helpful to and TGC has been enormously helpful to and TGC has been enormously helpful to my life and ministry uh in so many ways my life and ministry uh in so many ways my life and ministry uh in so many ways that uh I'm just grateful that I get to that uh I'm just grateful that I get to that uh I'm just grateful that I get to be part of a team and a movement to be part of a team and a movement to be part of a team and a movement to figure out how do we help renew and figure out how do we help renew and figure out how do we help renew and unify the contemporary church and the unify the contemporary church and the unify the contemporary church and the ancient gospel? How do we take something ancient gospel? How do we take something ancient gospel? How do we take something that's timeless and important and that's timeless and important and that's timeless and important and life-changing and then use the gifts life-changing and then use the gifts life-changing and then use the gifts platform that God has given us to be platform that God has given us to be platform that God has given us to be able to help local church pastors and able to help local church pastors and able to help local church pastors and churches and ministry leaders and churches and ministry leaders and churches and ministry leaders and women's Bible study leaders every seven women's Bible study leaders every seven women's Bible study leaders every seven days on Sunday and throughout the week days on Sunday and throughout the week days on Sunday and throughout the week be able to be faithful to the calling of be able to be faithful to the calling of be able to be faithful to the calling of God on their lives and to spread the God on their lives and to spread the God on their lives and to spread the good news of Jesus that changes the good news of Jesus that changes the good news of Jesus that changes the world. So, it's a privilege to just be world. So, it's a privilege to just be world. So, it's a privilege to just be able to help that resource entity to be able to help that resource entity to be able to help that resource entity to be able to continue to fulfill its mission. able to continue to fulfill its mission. able to continue to fulfill its mission. And here I thought you were going to say And here I thought you were going to say And here I thought you were going to say the deep dish was what you were most the deep dish was what you were most the deep dish was what you were most excited about about the future of the excited about about the future of the excited about about the future of the houseful coalition. Okay. In three houseful coalition. Okay. In three houseful coalition. Okay. In three sentences, tell us why we were joking sentences, tell us why we were joking sentences, tell us why we were joking about puppies because that is actually a about puppies because that is actually a about puppies because that is actually a big part of your life.

big part of your life. big part of your life. >> Yeah, it is. My wife has found her thing >> Yeah, it is. My wife has found her thing >> Yeah, it is. My wife has found her thing with uh we have a Bernadoodle in our with uh we have a Bernadoodle in our with uh we have a Bernadoodle in our house and uh she loves a little business house and uh she loves a little business house and uh she loves a little business that she runs of breeding uh Bernadoodle that she runs of breeding uh Bernadoodle that she runs of breeding uh Bernadoodle puppies. So, we have once a year or so a puppies. So, we have once a year or so a puppies. So, we have once a year or so a beautiful um puppy therapy in our home. beautiful um puppy therapy in our home. beautiful um puppy therapy in our home. So, it's a great delight. So, So, it's a great delight. So, So, it's a great delight. So, >> well, as somebody else who has a >> well, as somebody else who has a >> well, as somebody else who has a Bernadoodle in her home, I got to see Bernadoodle in her home, I got to see Bernadoodle in her home, I got to see these puppies, 12 of them, and they are these puppies, 12 of them, and they are these puppies, 12 of them, and they are absolutely absolutely absolutely gorgeous. Well, again, Mark, thanks for gorgeous. Well, again, Mark, thanks for gorgeous. Well, again, Mark, thanks for joining us. And friends, we hope that joining us. And friends, we hope that joining us. And friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of The you have enjoyed this episode of The you have enjoyed this episode of The Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition, and Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition, and Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition, and may we all wait on the Lord really well. may we all wait on the Lord really well. may we all wait on the Lord really well. See you next time.