Church Could (Literally) Save Your Life

is a rising generation of people who've is a rising generation of people who've been raised on the diet of no church and been raised on the diet of no church and been raised on the diet of no church and who are realizing, "Oh, this is who are realizing, "Oh, this is who are realizing, "Oh, this is terrible." And actually finding in terrible." And actually finding in terrible." And actually finding in church the hope in Jesus that they need church the hope in Jesus that they need church the hope in Jesus that they need and the community of love that they and the community of love that they and the community of love that they need. need. need. [Music] [Music] [Music] Imagine you could save your life through Imagine you could save your life through Imagine you could save your life through one simple regular act. Now, you one simple regular act. Now, you one simple regular act. Now, you wouldn't always want to do it every wouldn't always want to do it every wouldn't always want to do it every week. You'd come up with multiple week. You'd come up with multiple week. You'd come up with multiple excuses why you don't want to. The night excuses why you don't want to. The night excuses why you don't want to. The night before, it would be a struggle to get before, it would be a struggle to get before, it would be a struggle to get yourself up. Same with the the morning yourself up. Same with the the morning yourself up. Same with the the morning before, even every time though that you before, even every time though that you before, even every time though that you actually follow through and you finish, actually follow through and you finish, actually follow through and you finish, you feel refreshed. You feel energized, you feel refreshed. You feel energized, you feel refreshed. You feel energized, eager to undertake that day's agenda. eager to undertake that day's agenda. eager to undertake that day's agenda. But then when it came to do it again, But then when it came to do it again, But then when it came to do it again, somehow you'd still struggle to do it somehow you'd still struggle to do it somehow you'd still struggle to do it all the same way all over again. Now, I all the same way all over again. Now, I all the same way all over again. Now, I don't know what comes to mind for you don't know what comes to mind for you don't know what comes to mind for you when I lay out this scenario. Maybe the when I lay out this scenario. Maybe the when I lay out this scenario. Maybe the gym. Maybe it's your quiet time, Bible gym. Maybe it's your quiet time, Bible gym. Maybe it's your quiet time, Bible reading and prayer. Maybe it's a call or reading and prayer. Maybe it's a call or reading and prayer. Maybe it's a call or a meeting with a family member or a a meeting with a family member or a a meeting with a family member or a friend. What I'm talking about here is friend. What I'm talking about here is friend. What I'm talking about here is church and a new book by Rebecca church and a new book by Rebecca church and a new book by Rebecca McLaclin, How Church Could Literally McLaclin, How Church Could Literally McLaclin, How Church Could Literally Save Your Life, published by Crossway Save Your Life, published by Crossway Save Your Life, published by Crossway and TGC. Rebecca is widely known to and TGC. Rebecca is widely known to and TGC. Rebecca is widely known to gospelbound viewers and listeners as gospelbound viewers and listeners as gospelbound viewers and listeners as author of several of the most author of several of the most author of several of the most encouraging and successful books in TGC

encouraging and successful books in TGC encouraging and successful books in TGC history including Confronting history including Confronting history including Confronting Christianity, the secular creed and Christianity, the secular creed and Christianity, the secular creed and Jesus through the eyes of women. She's Jesus through the eyes of women. She's Jesus through the eyes of women. She's also a fellow with the Keller Center for also a fellow with the Keller Center for also a fellow with the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. And she returns to Cultural Apologetics. And she returns to Cultural Apologetics. And she returns to Gospel Bound to discuss the lifechanging Gospel Bound to discuss the lifechanging Gospel Bound to discuss the lifechanging research on what makes church good for research on what makes church good for research on what makes church good for your health. Rebecca, welcome back. your health. Rebecca, welcome back. your health. Rebecca, welcome back. >> Hey Colin, thank you for having me. >> Hey Colin, thank you for having me. >> Hey Colin, thank you for having me. Now, how did you just come across the Now, how did you just come across the Now, how did you just come across the research for this book? It's not like research for this book? It's not like research for this book? It's not like it's hiding, but I doubt many people it's hiding, but I doubt many people it's hiding, but I doubt many people even know about it. even know about it. even know about it. >> Yeah, which is a big reason why I wanted >> Yeah, which is a big reason why I wanted >> Yeah, which is a big reason why I wanted to to write the book. I've been familiar to to write the book. I've been familiar to to write the book. I've been familiar for probably a decade at this point with for probably a decade at this point with for probably a decade at this point with the work that a Harvard professor named the work that a Harvard professor named the work that a Harvard professor named Tyler Vanderil is doing over at the Tyler Vanderil is doing over at the Tyler Vanderil is doing over at the Harvard School of Public Health. I live Harvard School of Public Health. I live Harvard School of Public Health. I live in Cambridge, Mass. And much as my sort in Cambridge, Mass. And much as my sort in Cambridge, Mass. And much as my sort of English Cambridge roots make me um of English Cambridge roots make me um of English Cambridge roots make me um somewhat averse to Harvard as a concept, somewhat averse to Harvard as a concept, somewhat averse to Harvard as a concept, I'm sort of geographically close to I'm sort of geographically close to I'm sort of geographically close to Harvard University. Um and uh Tyler is Harvard University. Um and uh Tyler is Harvard University. Um and uh Tyler is is running a um a sort of center at the is running a um a sort of center at the is running a um a sort of center at the Harvard School of Public Health that's Harvard School of Public Health that's Harvard School of Public Health that's looking at human flourishing in looking at human flourishing in looking at human flourishing in particular and his focus of his research particular and his focus of his research particular and his focus of his research is on the relationship between religious is on the relationship between religious is on the relationship between religious participation participation participation and both physical and mental health and both physical and mental health and both physical and mental health outcomes.

outcomes. outcomes. And it's one of these uh sort of And it's one of these uh sort of And it's one of these uh sort of surprising secrets, I guess, in the surprising secrets, I guess, in the surprising secrets, I guess, in the modern world, which at least where I modern world, which at least where I modern world, which at least where I come from in the UK, you know, we're come from in the UK, you know, we're come from in the UK, you know, we're very much um told culturally that if if very much um told culturally that if if very much um told culturally that if if anything, going to church is probably anything, going to church is probably anything, going to church is probably sort of psychologically bad for you. Um sort of psychologically bad for you. Um sort of psychologically bad for you. Um you know, possibly neutral, but we we've you know, possibly neutral, but we we've you know, possibly neutral, but we we've all heard the the horror stories of all heard the the horror stories of all heard the the horror stories of people who've people who've people who've >> whose mental health has been ruined by >> whose mental health has been ruined by >> whose mental health has been ruined by their religious upbringing, etc., etc. their religious upbringing, etc., etc. their religious upbringing, etc., etc. and in a in a cultural moment where and in a in a cultural moment where and in a in a cultural moment where people I think are increasingly people I think are increasingly people I think are increasingly desperate for the latest sort of mental desperate for the latest sort of mental desperate for the latest sort of mental and physical health hack. Um, and you and physical health hack. Um, and you and physical health hack. Um, and you know, we're all busy googling what are know, we're all busy googling what are know, we're all busy googling what are the top 10 things I can do um to improve the top 10 things I can do um to improve the top 10 things I can do um to improve my mental health or or my my physical my mental health or or my my physical my mental health or or my my physical health and familiar with some of the health and familiar with some of the health and familiar with some of the things that are going to pop up on that things that are going to pop up on that things that are going to pop up on that list. One of the things that almost list. One of the things that almost list. One of the things that almost never pops up on those lists is going to never pops up on those lists is going to never pops up on those lists is going to church every week church every week church every week >> and go to church. yet that is one of the >> and go to church. yet that is one of the >> and go to church. yet that is one of the most um well demonstrated interventions most um well demonstrated interventions most um well demonstrated interventions that that you or I could could that that you or I could could that that you or I could could undertake. Um interestingly undertake. Um interestingly undertake. Um interestingly it's it's sort of similar to um eating it's it's sort of similar to um eating it's it's sort of similar to um eating more fruits and vegetables which I don't more fruits and vegetables which I don't more fruits and vegetables which I don't know about you Colin I I actually love know about you Colin I I actually love know about you Colin I I actually love fruits and vegetables so it's not much fruits and vegetables so it's not much fruits and vegetables so it's not much of a hardship to to do that. Um it's of a hardship to to do that. Um it's of a hardship to to do that. Um it's it's not far off the benefit of exercise it's not far off the benefit of exercise it's not far off the benefit of exercise and frankly when you were describing and frankly when you were describing and frankly when you were describing like the thing that you know that you like the thing that you know that you like the thing that you know that you will be good for you but you don't want will be good for you but you don't want will be good for you but you don't want to do for me that's that's exercising to do for me that's that's exercising to do for me that's that's exercising every time and it's similar actually in every time and it's similar actually in every time and it's similar actually in its benefit to quitting smoking. Now, its benefit to quitting smoking. Now, its benefit to quitting smoking. Now, I'm not a smoker myself, but if if some I'm not a smoker myself, but if if some I'm not a smoker myself, but if if some listeners are, you know, maybe you could

listeners are, you know, maybe you could listeners are, you know, maybe you could start going to church and and, you know, start going to church and and, you know, start going to church and and, you know, balance out your smoking habit uh with balance out your smoking habit uh with balance out your smoking habit uh with that that that >> or get double the benefits, maybe >> or get double the benefits, maybe >> or get double the benefits, maybe >> or double, you know, actually, fun fact, >> or double, you know, actually, fun fact, >> or double, you know, actually, fun fact, you're more likely to quit smoking if you're more likely to quit smoking if you're more likely to quit smoking if you start going to church. you start going to church. you start going to church. >> Oh, okay. >> Oh, okay. >> Oh, okay. >> You most people who are smokers are >> You most people who are smokers are >> You most people who are smokers are actually sort of trying or have tried at actually sort of trying or have tried at actually sort of trying or have tried at one point in their life or other to quit one point in their life or other to quit one point in their life or other to quit smoking. It's really hard, I'm told. But smoking. It's really hard, I'm told. But smoking. It's really hard, I'm told. But apparently if you're regularly attending apparently if you're regularly attending apparently if you're regularly attending church, you are more likely to stick church, you are more likely to stick church, you are more likely to stick with quitting smoking. with quitting smoking. with quitting smoking. >> There you go. Well, I mean again just >> There you go. Well, I mean again just >> There you go. Well, I mean again just just fascinating and for all places to just fascinating and for all places to just fascinating and for all places to come out of out of Harvard. Um it's not come out of out of Harvard. Um it's not come out of out of Harvard. Um it's not that comes with an a seal of seal of that comes with an a seal of seal of that comes with an a seal of seal of academic approval there. Um now is it academic approval there. Um now is it academic approval there. Um now is it religion that benefits people or is it religion that benefits people or is it religion that benefits people or is it Christianity? That's the first part of Christianity? That's the first part of Christianity? That's the first part of the question. The second part of the the question. The second part of the the question. The second part of the question then is question then is question then is >> what about spirituality? Lots of people >> what about spirituality? Lots of people >> what about spirituality? Lots of people say I'm not religious but I'm spiritual. say I'm not religious but I'm spiritual. say I'm not religious but I'm spiritual. Does that have the same benefits? Does that have the same benefits? Does that have the same benefits? >> Yeah. So what um Tyler and his his >> Yeah. So what um Tyler and his his >> Yeah. So what um Tyler and his his married men and women at Harvard and married men and women at Harvard and married men and women at Harvard and it's not actually only at Harvard. There it's not actually only at Harvard. There it's not actually only at Harvard. There are other institutions sort of studying are other institutions sort of studying are other institutions sort of studying this as well but but Tyler's probably this as well but but Tyler's probably this as well but but Tyler's probably one of the the world experts on this.

one of the the world experts on this. one of the the world experts on this. What they're they're looking at is what What they're they're looking at is what What they're they're looking at is what we might call organized religion i.e. we might call organized religion i.e. we might call organized religion i.e. showing up on a regular basis to a showing up on a regular basis to a showing up on a regular basis to a worship service. worship service. worship service. and the studies that they've done and the studies that they've done and the studies that they've done haven't been differentiating between haven't been differentiating between haven't been differentiating between sort of going to a Christian service sort of going to a Christian service sort of going to a Christian service versus a Jewish service or you know sort versus a Jewish service or you know sort versus a Jewish service or you know sort of different religious traditions. Um of different religious traditions. Um of different religious traditions. Um but they they have been looking at the but they they have been looking at the but they they have been looking at the the difference between physically the difference between physically the difference between physically showing up for a religious service of of showing up for a religious service of of showing up for a religious service of of some kind like that versus on the one some kind like that versus on the one some kind like that versus on the one hand physically showing up for some hand physically showing up for some hand physically showing up for some other sort of regular gathering. So other sort of regular gathering. So other sort of regular gathering. So maybe you know you play golf and you go maybe you know you play golf and you go maybe you know you play golf and you go to the same golf club every week and to the same golf club every week and to the same golf club every week and hang out with the same people um and you hang out with the same people um and you hang out with the same people um and you get the sort of social benefits of that. get the sort of social benefits of that. get the sort of social benefits of that. It turns out the phenomena that they're It turns out the phenomena that they're It turns out the phenomena that they're sort of seeing when it comes to sort of seeing when it comes to sort of seeing when it comes to religious participation isn't just religious participation isn't just religious participation isn't just reducible to the social benefits. That reducible to the social benefits. That reducible to the social benefits. That turns out to be about sort of turns out to be about sort of turns out to be about sort of >> 30% of the effect but certainly not not >> 30% of the effect but certainly not not >> 30% of the effect but certainly not not all of it. Um all of it. Um all of it. Um and and it's also not just kind of and and it's also not just kind of and and it's also not just kind of having spiritual thoughts and feelings. having spiritual thoughts and feelings. having spiritual thoughts and feelings. It's the the act of, you know, the sort It's the the act of, you know, the sort It's the the act of, you know, the sort of incredibly unglamorous act of of of incredibly unglamorous act of of of incredibly unglamorous act of of showing up for a religious service, you showing up for a religious service, you showing up for a religious service, you know, which again there are probably know, which again there are probably know, which again there are probably many in our culture today who would many in our culture today who would many in our culture today who would consider themselves, as you say, sort of consider themselves, as you say, sort of consider themselves, as you say, sort of spiritual but not religious. Um you can spiritual but not religious. Um you can spiritual but not religious. Um you can find aunt recommendations to start you find aunt recommendations to start you find aunt recommendations to start you know doing yoga or meditating or sort of know doing yoga or meditating or sort of know doing yoga or meditating or sort of other things which might be other things which might be other things which might be >> um you know somewhat like religion >> um you know somewhat like religion >> um you know somewhat like religion adjacent um and and might have some you adjacent um and and might have some you adjacent um and and might have some you know benefits like stretching your body

know benefits like stretching your body know benefits like stretching your body as sort of form of exercise has as sort of form of exercise has as sort of form of exercise has certainly got some benefits to it but certainly got some benefits to it but certainly got some benefits to it but there seems to be a a particular effect there seems to be a a particular effect there seems to be a a particular effect of what we in the church sometimes call of what we in the church sometimes call of what we in the church sometimes call kind of corporate worship kind of corporate worship kind of corporate worship um and and doing that on a regular um and and doing that on a regular um and and doing that on a regular basis. So the sort of dosage that you basis. So the sort of dosage that you basis. So the sort of dosage that you want for this to have its real effect is want for this to have its real effect is want for this to have its real effect is once a week or more. uh you and I have once a week or more. uh you and I have once a week or more. uh you and I have both we've been together with with Ross both we've been together with with Ross both we've been together with with Ross Dowet at the New York Times when he's Dowet at the New York Times when he's Dowet at the New York Times when he's described Christianity is only described Christianity is only described Christianity is only beneficial so far as it's true and we beneficial so far as it's true and we beneficial so far as it's true and we know you look at 1 Corinthians 15 that's know you look at 1 Corinthians 15 that's know you look at 1 Corinthians 15 that's in keeping with the what the Apostle in keeping with the what the Apostle in keeping with the what the Apostle Paul argued there if Jesus is not raised Paul argued there if Jesus is not raised Paul argued there if Jesus is not raised then as believers in Christ were worse then as believers in Christ were worse then as believers in Christ were worse off than anyone else and I'm thinking off than anyone else and I'm thinking off than anyone else and I'm thinking about this Rebecca in terms of about this Rebecca in terms of about this Rebecca in terms of distinctively American uh philosophy distinctively American uh philosophy distinctively American uh philosophy pragmatism Americans tend to see truth pragmatism Americans tend to see truth pragmatism Americans tend to see truth as a pragmatic category. as a pragmatic category. as a pragmatic category. >> If it works, then it's true as opposed >> If it works, then it's true as opposed >> If it works, then it's true as opposed to is it true and then does it work. So to is it true and then does it work. So to is it true and then does it work. So I'm wondering how do we navigate that I'm wondering how do we navigate that I'm wondering how do we navigate that tension to help people see that tension to help people see that tension to help people see that Christianity works and then help them Christianity works and then help them Christianity works and then help them them to see that it's true actually no them to see that it's true actually no them to see that it's true actually no matter how you experience it. It's matter how you experience it. It's matter how you experience it. It's objectively outside of yourself true.

objectively outside of yourself true. objectively outside of yourself true. >> Yeah. So, the way that I I've broken um >> Yeah. So, the way that I I've broken um >> Yeah. So, the way that I I've broken um this exceedingly short book down, and I this exceedingly short book down, and I this exceedingly short book down, and I I want listeners to sort of know the the I want listeners to sort of know the the I want listeners to sort of know the the shortness because it's sort of designed shortness because it's sort of designed shortness because it's sort of designed to be something that people can read who to be something that people can read who to be something that people can read who maybe aren't necessarily like big maybe aren't necessarily like big maybe aren't necessarily like big readers and that you could maybe give to readers and that you could maybe give to readers and that you could maybe give to a friend who is not a big reader, is to a friend who is not a big reader, is to a friend who is not a big reader, is to first look at the the mental and first look at the the mental and first look at the the mental and physical health benefits of religious physical health benefits of religious physical health benefits of religious participation, which you know is is what participation, which you know is is what participation, which you know is is what we can um pluck from the the pages of we can um pluck from the the pages of we can um pluck from the the pages of the publications of the Harvard School the publications of the Harvard School the publications of the Harvard School of Public Health, etc. And then look at of Public Health, etc. And then look at of Public Health, etc. And then look at two other um claims. So, one, the the two other um claims. So, one, the the two other um claims. So, one, the the moral health benefits moral health benefits moral health benefits of of not just religion in general, but of of not just religion in general, but of of not just religion in general, but Christianity in particular, and then Christianity in particular, and then Christianity in particular, and then what I've called the sort of spiritual what I've called the sort of spiritual what I've called the sort of spiritual health benefits. health benefits. health benefits. And the reason I think it's helpful to And the reason I think it's helpful to And the reason I think it's helpful to kind of look at both of those is that kind of look at both of those is that kind of look at both of those is that many people in our modern world and many people in our modern world and many people in our modern world and certainly in in you know my neighborhood certainly in in you know my neighborhood certainly in in you know my neighborhood in in Cambridge, Massachusetts think in in Cambridge, Massachusetts think in in Cambridge, Massachusetts think that you don't have to be religious and that you don't have to be religious and that you don't have to be religious and certainly not sort of specifically certainly not sort of specifically certainly not sort of specifically Christian to hold certain fundamental Christian to hold certain fundamental Christian to hold certain fundamental moral beliefs that we all sort of buy moral beliefs that we all sort of buy moral beliefs that we all sort of buy into and we all know, you know, good for into and we all know, you know, good for into and we all know, you know, good for the world. So whether that's beliefs in the world. So whether that's beliefs in the world. So whether that's beliefs in sort of universal human equality, care sort of universal human equality, care sort of universal human equality, care for the poor, um the equality of men and for the poor, um the equality of men and for the poor, um the equality of men and women, um you know, the fact that the women, um you know, the fact that the women, um you know, the fact that the the strong and rich and the powerful the strong and rich and the powerful the strong and rich and the powerful shouldn't be trampling on the weak and shouldn't be trampling on the weak and shouldn't be trampling on the weak and the poor and the marginalized, like the poor and the marginalized, like the poor and the marginalized, like these things that we hold to be to quote these things that we hold to be to quote these things that we hold to be to quote the Declaration of Independence that the Declaration of Independence that the Declaration of Independence that have self-evident um this idea of of have self-evident um this idea of of have self-evident um this idea of of universal human equality and that even universal human equality and that even universal human equality and that even if you look kind of across the political if you look kind of across the political if you look kind of across the political spectrum, people might have very

spectrum, people might have very spectrum, people might have very different proposals about what it means different proposals about what it means different proposals about what it means to for for instance benefit the poor. to for for instance benefit the poor. to for for instance benefit the poor. or what it looks like for men and women or what it looks like for men and women or what it looks like for men and women to be recognized as equal, etc., etc. to be recognized as equal, etc., etc. to be recognized as equal, etc., etc. But I could knock on doors of almost But I could knock on doors of almost But I could knock on doors of almost anybody in my neighborhood in Cambridge, anybody in my neighborhood in Cambridge, anybody in my neighborhood in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and regardless of how Massachusetts, and regardless of how Massachusetts, and regardless of how they identify religiously, regardless of they identify religiously, regardless of they identify religiously, regardless of how they identify politically, etc., how they identify politically, etc., how they identify politically, etc., they would say, "Yeah, I I agree with they would say, "Yeah, I I agree with they would say, "Yeah, I I agree with those things. You know, I think those things. You know, I think those things. You know, I think everybody's fundamentally equal and and everybody's fundamentally equal and and everybody's fundamentally equal and and that that matters and that we need to that that matters and that we need to that that matters and that we need to live in sort of accordance with that." live in sort of accordance with that." live in sort of accordance with that." And because there's so much agreement And because there's so much agreement And because there's so much agreement across different sort of religious and across different sort of religious and across different sort of religious and political um allegiances in our culture political um allegiances in our culture political um allegiances in our culture here, we think that this is just basic here, we think that this is just basic here, we think that this is just basic moral common sense. You know, you don't moral common sense. You know, you don't moral common sense. You know, you don't need any particular need any particular need any particular religious or philosophical religious or philosophical religious or philosophical undergurtdings for that. It's just like undergurtdings for that. It's just like undergurtdings for that. It's just like the ABC of morality and being a good the ABC of morality and being a good the ABC of morality and being a good person is recognizing these things. In person is recognizing these things. In person is recognizing these things. In actual fact, those are specifically actual fact, those are specifically actual fact, those are specifically Christian beliefs. And and that's true. Christian beliefs. And and that's true. Christian beliefs. And and that's true. You know, if we look at the the history You know, if we look at the the history You know, if we look at the the history of thought, how we came to hold those of thought, how we came to hold those of thought, how we came to hold those beliefs, it's because of Christianity.

beliefs, it's because of Christianity. beliefs, it's because of Christianity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's also true, and this is >> And it's also true, and this is >> And it's also true, and this is acknowledged not just by by Christians, acknowledged not just by by Christians, acknowledged not just by by Christians, but actually by, you know, many of our but actually by, you know, many of our but actually by, you know, many of our leading sort of atheist and agnostic leading sort of atheist and agnostic leading sort of atheist and agnostic thinkers. If if we take Christianity out thinkers. If if we take Christianity out thinkers. If if we take Christianity out of the equation, if we say, okay, sure, of the equation, if we say, okay, sure, of the equation, if we say, okay, sure, maybe the teachings of Jesus were the maybe the teachings of Jesus were the maybe the teachings of Jesus were the reason why in the first place people reason why in the first place people reason why in the first place people started to hold these kinds of of views started to hold these kinds of of views started to hold these kinds of of views about universal human equality. Um, but about universal human equality. Um, but about universal human equality. Um, but if we if we sort of pull Jesus out, if we if we sort of pull Jesus out, if we if we sort of pull Jesus out, it's not that those views just sort of it's not that those views just sort of it's not that those views just sort of stand by themselves, stand by themselves, stand by themselves, they actually you're sort of left they actually you're sort of left they actually you're sort of left without any really kind of coherent without any really kind of coherent without any really kind of coherent rationale and framework for believing rationale and framework for believing rationale and framework for believing what you believe. Um, I had a a really what you believe. Um, I had a a really what you believe. Um, I had a a really sort of interesting um conversation a sort of interesting um conversation a sort of interesting um conversation a few years ago with a a guy who was also few years ago with a a guy who was also few years ago with a a guy who was also working at at Harvard in public health working at at Harvard in public health working at at Harvard in public health in a in a different group. And he in a in a different group. And he in a in a different group. And he himself sort of culturally Jewish um but himself sort of culturally Jewish um but himself sort of culturally Jewish um but convictionally atheist and the kind of convictionally atheist and the kind of convictionally atheist and the kind of work that he was doing was specifically work that he was doing was specifically work that he was doing was specifically targeted to um benefiting targeted to um benefiting targeted to um benefiting poor people in other parts of the world.

poor people in other parts of the world. poor people in other parts of the world. you know, it was sort of that it was you know, it was sort of that it was you know, it was sort of that it was medical and and sort of public health medical and and sort of public health medical and and sort of public health initiatives that that were benefit initiatives that that were benefit initiatives that that were benefit fitting people in in those categories. fitting people in in those categories. fitting people in in those categories. And he's clearly very passionate about And he's clearly very passionate about And he's clearly very passionate about his work. And I said to him, um, you his work. And I said to him, um, you his work. And I said to him, um, you know, do I'm just checking that you know, do I'm just checking that you know, do I'm just checking that you realize that your atheism doesn't realize that your atheism doesn't realize that your atheism doesn't actually give you any grounds actually give you any grounds actually give you any grounds for your your deep care, your evident for your your deep care, your evident for your your deep care, your evident care for those people. care for those people. care for those people. Um, and he just sort of quietly said to Um, and he just sort of quietly said to Um, and he just sort of quietly said to me, "Yeah, no, I know. me, "Yeah, no, I know. me, "Yeah, no, I know. And I found it And I found it And I found it honestly sort of sad um because he was a honestly sort of sad um because he was a honestly sort of sad um because he was a man again he was sort of giving his life man again he was sort of giving his life man again he was sort of giving his life to a work that was doing something truly to a work that was doing something truly to a work that was doing something truly good and that I can say as a Christian good and that I can say as a Christian good and that I can say as a Christian is truly good and as a Christian I can is truly good and as a Christian I can is truly good and as a Christian I can kind of put legs under why that is truly kind of put legs under why that is truly kind of put legs under why that is truly good good good but but but in his mind he doesn't actually have in his mind he doesn't actually have in his mind he doesn't actually have have the option and I think this is true have the option and I think this is true have the option and I think this is true for many who um you know very kind of for many who um you know very kind of for many who um you know very kind of highly educated and and you know think highly educated and and you know think highly educated and and you know think of themselves as as kind of modern and of themselves as as kind of modern and of themselves as as kind of modern and and progressive folks.

and progressive folks. and progressive folks. He doesn't think he even has the option He doesn't think he even has the option He doesn't think he even has the option of putting like real legs under those of putting like real legs under those of putting like real legs under those under those claims. Like he I don't under those claims. Like he I don't under those claims. Like he I don't think I don't think he even like think I don't think he even like think I don't think he even like considered Jesus as a as a possibility considered Jesus as a as a possibility considered Jesus as a as a possibility because clearly because clearly because clearly um Christianity was not credible or um Christianity was not credible or um Christianity was not credible or viable viable viable >> for an educated person in in the modern >> for an educated person in in the modern >> for an educated person in in the modern world. Um and I don't I don't think world. Um and I don't I don't think world. Um and I don't I don't think that's true. So, so I think you know one that's true. So, so I think you know one that's true. So, so I think you know one of the things it's it's worth looking at of the things it's it's worth looking at of the things it's it's worth looking at is like do the claims of Jesus stand up is like do the claims of Jesus stand up is like do the claims of Jesus stand up to scrutiny in the year of our Lord to scrutiny in the year of our Lord to scrutiny in the year of our Lord 2025. 2025. 2025. And the answer is you most definitely And the answer is you most definitely And the answer is you most definitely yes. Now I'm not saying you can you know yes. Now I'm not saying you can you know yes. Now I'm not saying you can you know prove to your most atheist friend that prove to your most atheist friend that prove to your most atheist friend that Christianity is true if you just sort of Christianity is true if you just sort of Christianity is true if you just sort of sit down with them long enough and read sit down with them long enough and read sit down with them long enough and read enough you know complicated books. enough you know complicated books. enough you know complicated books. That's certainly not true. Like I would That's certainly not true. Like I would That's certainly not true. Like I would also say that as a Christian I believe a also say that as a Christian I believe a also say that as a Christian I believe a bunch of frankly crazy things. You know bunch of frankly crazy things. You know bunch of frankly crazy things. You know the Christian worldview is is is wild in the Christian worldview is is is wild in the Christian worldview is is is wild in the claims that it's making about this the claims that it's making about this the claims that it's making about this first century Jewish man who was first century Jewish man who was first century Jewish man who was executed in what looked like a executed in what looked like a executed in what looked like a humiliating failure and then you know humiliating failure and then you know humiliating failure and then you know claimed that that was actually the claimed that that was actually the claimed that that was actually the greatest triumph in the history of the greatest triumph in the history of the greatest triumph in the history of the world. You know redeeming um humanity world. You know redeeming um humanity world. You know redeeming um humanity redeeming any anyone who put their trust redeeming any anyone who put their trust redeeming any anyone who put their trust in him. You know, the the idea that that in him. You know, the the idea that that in him. You know, the the idea that that the universe rotates around this first the universe rotates around this first the universe rotates around this first century Jewish man century Jewish man century Jewish man >> who kind of basically died poor and >> who kind of basically died poor and >> who kind of basically died poor and obscure obscure obscure is a is a wild claim to be making, is a is a wild claim to be making, is a is a wild claim to be making, >> but we're not comparing it with a bunch >> but we're not comparing it with a bunch >> but we're not comparing it with a bunch of um you know far more credible and

of um you know far more credible and of um you know far more credible and less crazy sounding options. Like if we less crazy sounding options. Like if we less crazy sounding options. Like if we actually look carefully at the the other actually look carefully at the the other actually look carefully at the the other options that we we have, I think options that we we have, I think options that we we have, I think Christianity starts to shine really Christianity starts to shine really Christianity starts to shine really brightly. brightly. brightly. Um and so so I think and I think the Um and so so I think and I think the Um and so so I think and I think the kind of questions around how kind of questions around how kind of questions around how Christianity's sort of foundations for Christianity's sort of foundations for Christianity's sort of foundations for our shared moral beliefs is is a piece our shared moral beliefs is is a piece our shared moral beliefs is is a piece of that. Um, and then yeah, the the last of that. Um, and then yeah, the the last of that. Um, and then yeah, the the last chapter I'm looking at the the spiritual chapter I'm looking at the the spiritual chapter I'm looking at the the spiritual health benefits of Christianity because health benefits of Christianity because health benefits of Christianity because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, you could go to church every week of you could go to church every week of you could go to church every week of your life from the the day that you were your life from the the day that you were your life from the the day that you were born till the day you die age 95 having, born till the day you die age 95 having, born till the day you die age 95 having, you know, done all the healthy things. you know, done all the healthy things. you know, done all the healthy things. You could have in in addition to that You could have in in addition to that You could have in in addition to that participated in midweek Bible studies participated in midweek Bible studies participated in midweek Bible studies and, you know, participated in in um and, you know, participated in in um and, you know, participated in in um poverty relief efforts at your local poverty relief efforts at your local poverty relief efforts at your local church, etc., etc. church, etc., etc. church, etc., etc. And if you haven't actually accepted And if you haven't actually accepted And if you haven't actually accepted Jesus's death on the cross in your Jesus's death on the cross in your Jesus's death on the cross in your place, place, place, according to Jesus, you're you haven't according to Jesus, you're you haven't according to Jesus, you're you haven't entered the kingdom of God. Um, and one entered the kingdom of God. Um, and one entered the kingdom of God. Um, and one of the ways that that Jesus describes of the ways that that Jesus describes of the ways that that Jesus describes himself himself himself beautifully in the gospels is he says beautifully in the gospels is he says beautifully in the gospels is he says he's the he's the doctor. um you know he's the he's the doctor. um you know he's the he's the doctor. um you know when he's criticized for hanging out when he's criticized for hanging out when he's criticized for hanging out with a bunch of obviously sinful people with a bunch of obviously sinful people with a bunch of obviously sinful people I mean the religious leaders of his day I mean the religious leaders of his day I mean the religious leaders of his day are sort of saying like why why is Jesus are sort of saying like why why is Jesus are sort of saying like why why is Jesus hanging out with these clearly sinful hanging out with these clearly sinful hanging out with these clearly sinful people people people and and he responds you know it's not and and he responds you know it's not and and he responds you know it's not actually the healthy who need a doctor

actually the healthy who need a doctor actually the healthy who need a doctor it's the sick I haven't come to call the it's the sick I haven't come to call the it's the sick I haven't come to call the righteous the good people I've come to righteous the good people I've come to righteous the good people I've come to call sinners to repentance and call sinners to repentance and call sinners to repentance and I'd love to have been there in that sort I'd love to have been there in that sort I'd love to have been there in that sort of moment when the religious leaders of moment when the religious leaders of moment when the religious leaders like heard that and and see whether they like heard that and and see whether they like heard that and and see whether they whether they thought, oh, you know, whether they thought, oh, you know, whether they thought, oh, you know, okay, that's fine. Like, clearly we're okay, that's fine. Like, clearly we're okay, that's fine. Like, clearly we're we're righteous people. We don't need we're righteous people. We don't need we're righteous people. We don't need Jesus. And he sort of smooth that over. Jesus. And he sort of smooth that over. Jesus. And he sort of smooth that over. Or whether they realize Or whether they realize Or whether they realize actually Jesus's point there is actually Jesus's point there is actually Jesus's point there is this the sinners who he's hanging out this the sinners who he's hanging out this the sinners who he's hanging out with in sort of, you know, capital S with in sort of, you know, capital S with in sort of, you know, capital S sinners, those are the ones they re who sinners, those are the ones they re who sinners, those are the ones they re who realize they need Jesus. And it's the realize they need Jesus. And it's the realize they need Jesus. And it's the the religious leaders who don't get it. the religious leaders who don't get it. the religious leaders who don't get it. Um, and until we can recognize Jesus's Um, and until we can recognize Jesus's Um, and until we can recognize Jesus's diagnosis of us as profoundly diagnosis of us as profoundly diagnosis of us as profoundly spiritually sick, however seemingly spiritually sick, however seemingly spiritually sick, however seemingly religious we are, we're not going to be religious we are, we're not going to be religious we are, we're not going to be ready to fling ourselves into the arms ready to fling ourselves into the arms ready to fling ourselves into the arms of the the one person who can who can of the the one person who can who can of the the one person who can who can save us. You know, we're not going to save us. You know, we're not going to save us. You know, we're not going to put our case in Jesus's hands if we put our case in Jesus's hands if we put our case in Jesus's hands if we don't know how how sick we are. don't know how how sick we are. don't know how how sick we are. >> We're talking here with Rebecca >> We're talking here with Rebecca >> We're talking here with Rebecca Mccclaclin about how church could Mccclaclin about how church could Mccclaclin about how church could literally save your life. It's a new literally save your life. It's a new literally save your life. It's a new book Rebecca wrote, published with book Rebecca wrote, published with book Rebecca wrote, published with Crossway and TGC.

Crossway and TGC. Crossway and TGC. Uh, you've mentioned a lot of the Uh, you've mentioned a lot of the Uh, you've mentioned a lot of the different engagements and push back and different engagements and push back and different engagements and push back and some of the arguments and debates that some of the arguments and debates that some of the arguments and debates that you've had. What do you anticipate, you've had. What do you anticipate, you've had. What do you anticipate, Rebecca, as the strongest secular Rebecca, as the strongest secular Rebecca, as the strongest secular critique of your book, but really about critique of your book, but really about critique of your book, but really about the research that's behind it? Would it the research that's behind it? Would it the research that's behind it? Would it be the selection bias of the people who be the selection bias of the people who be the selection bias of the people who go to church? What would it be? go to church? What would it be? go to church? What would it be? >> Yeah. One of the things that I um pride >> Yeah. One of the things that I um pride >> Yeah. One of the things that I um pride myself on is not being an expert in most myself on is not being an expert in most myself on is not being an expert in most things. things. things. Um and the reason I say that is that I Um and the reason I say that is that I Um and the reason I say that is that I tend to write and absolutely written tend to write and absolutely written tend to write and absolutely written this book not on the basis of my own this book not on the basis of my own this book not on the basis of my own research and expertise but actually on research and expertise but actually on research and expertise but actually on the basis of of people who are by any the basis of of people who are by any the basis of of people who are by any measure world leaders in in this area of measure world leaders in in this area of measure world leaders in in this area of research. And so, you know, one of the research. And so, you know, one of the research. And so, you know, one of the questions that that Tyler Vanderville questions that that Tyler Vanderville questions that that Tyler Vanderville and and his colleagues have been looking and and his colleagues have been looking and and his colleagues have been looking at is how much of this is just sort of at is how much of this is just sort of at is how much of this is just sort of correl correlation versus causation. So, correl correlation versus causation. So, correl correlation versus causation. So, for example, the fact that you are for example, the fact that you are for example, the fact that you are significantly less likely to be significantly less likely to be significantly less likely to be depressed if you go to church than if depressed if you go to church than if depressed if you go to church than if you don't. Is that just because if you don't. Is that just because if you don't. Is that just because if you're depressed, it's like really hard you're depressed, it's like really hard you're depressed, it's like really hard to to to >> go to church? Like, you know, there's >> go to church? Like, you know, there's >> go to church? Like, you know, there's the for all sorts of reasons, the the for all sorts of reasons, the the for all sorts of reasons, the activation energy required to sort of go activation energy required to sort of go activation energy required to sort of go to church is to church is to church is >> it's hard. So or or whether it's in >> it's hard. So or or whether it's in >> it's hard. So or or whether it's in terms of happiness or health like terms of happiness or health like terms of happiness or health like whether there are other kind of um whether there are other kind of um whether there are other kind of um factors that are basically uh making it factors that are basically uh making it factors that are basically uh making it look like church attendance is good for look like church attendance is good for look like church attendance is good for you when really it's it's just sort of you when really it's it's just sort of you when really it's it's just sort of something else and and I think people's something else and and I think people's something else and and I think people's first thought is generally oh it's just first thought is generally oh it's just first thought is generally oh it's just a social support or it's a kind of a social support or it's a kind of a social support or it's a kind of selection bias of um you know the people

selection bias of um you know the people selection bias of um you know the people who go to church the people who are who go to church the people who are who go to church the people who are already more likely to be happy healthy already more likely to be happy healthy already more likely to be happy healthy etc. etc. etc. Now, the research that's been done has Now, the research that's been done has Now, the research that's been done has kind of looked at these different kind of looked at these different kind of looked at these different elements and shown, well, yes, for sure, elements and shown, well, yes, for sure, elements and shown, well, yes, for sure, you are more likely to go to church if you are more likely to go to church if you are more likely to go to church if you're not depressed than if you are. you're not depressed than if you are. you're not depressed than if you are. However, if you regularly attend church, However, if you regularly attend church, However, if you regularly attend church, you you're less likely to become you you're less likely to become you you're less likely to become depressed and you're more likely to depressed and you're more likely to depressed and you're more likely to recover from depression if you do. Now, recover from depression if you do. Now, recover from depression if you do. Now, I I want to be very clear at at this I I want to be very clear at at this I I want to be very clear at at this point. You can absolutely be a faithful point. You can absolutely be a faithful point. You can absolutely be a faithful churchgoing in every sense sort of churchgoing in every sense sort of churchgoing in every sense sort of participating in the life of God's participating in the life of God's participating in the life of God's people Christian and struggle profoundly people Christian and struggle profoundly people Christian and struggle profoundly with depression. Now I have dear friends with depression. Now I have dear friends with depression. Now I have dear friends who who've walked through very serious who who've walked through very serious who who've walked through very serious seasons of depression as as very kind of seasons of depression as as very kind of seasons of depression as as very kind of convinced followers of Jesus who are convinced followers of Jesus who are convinced followers of Jesus who are absolutely participating in in church absolutely participating in in church absolutely participating in in church etc etc. So it's not the case that you etc etc. So it's not the case that you etc etc. So it's not the case that you know if you go to church you won't know if you go to church you won't know if you go to church you won't become depressed or if you are depressed become depressed or if you are depressed become depressed or if you are depressed and you start going to church you will and you start going to church you will and you start going to church you will sort of instantly um you know become the sort of instantly um you know become the sort of instantly um you know become the the kind of happy and mentally healthy the kind of happy and mentally healthy the kind of happy and mentally healthy person that you you would love to be. Um person that you you would love to be. Um person that you you would love to be. Um however all of that being said it seems however all of that being said it seems however all of that being said it seems like there is still a pretty strong like there is still a pretty strong like there is still a pretty strong basis of evidence that going to church basis of evidence that going to church basis of evidence that going to church makes a meaningful difference. Um and makes a meaningful difference. Um and makes a meaningful difference. Um and that's even when when people have sort that's even when when people have sort that's even when when people have sort of looked at the different factors, you of looked at the different factors, you of looked at the different factors, you know, whether it's um eliminate, you know, whether it's um eliminate, you know, whether it's um eliminate, you know, comparing people of the same age know, comparing people of the same age know, comparing people of the same age or the same demographic background, the

or the same demographic background, the or the same demographic background, the same um educational experience. Yeah. same um educational experience. Yeah. same um educational experience. Yeah. Controlling for all the all the Controlling for all the all the Controlling for all the all the different kinds of factors that that different kinds of factors that that different kinds of factors that that might um be involved here. And so might um be involved here. And so might um be involved here. And so the the fact that this research is being the the fact that this research is being the the fact that this research is being done by people who have a genuine done by people who have a genuine done by people who have a genuine expertise and actually by a team that's expertise and actually by a team that's expertise and actually by a team that's quite diverse in their own beliefs um quite diverse in their own beliefs um quite diverse in their own beliefs um you know some of Tyler's colleagues are you know some of Tyler's colleagues are you know some of Tyler's colleagues are >> are not believers in God and um have you >> are not believers in God and um have you >> are not believers in God and um have you even sort of even sort of even sort of >> tried going to church with their kids >> tried going to church with their kids >> tried going to church with their kids because if if you read the research that because if if you read the research that because if if you read the research that shows quite how good for your kids shows quite how good for your kids shows quite how good for your kids taking them to church is even if you taking them to church is even if you taking them to church is even if you don't believe in God at all it's sort of don't believe in God at all it's sort of don't believe in God at all it's sort of somewhat motivating to say okay maybe I somewhat motivating to say okay maybe I somewhat motivating to say okay maybe I should maybe I should give this a try should maybe I should give this a try should maybe I should give this a try but It's not only people who are coming but It's not only people who are coming but It's not only people who are coming in with a particular bias um in with a particular bias um in with a particular bias um religiously, you know, as I clearly am, religiously, you know, as I clearly am, religiously, you know, as I clearly am, >> and it's people studying this who have, >> and it's people studying this who have, >> and it's people studying this who have, you know, decades of of expertise um in you know, decades of of expertise um in you know, decades of of expertise um in this area and and are trying like really this area and and are trying like really this area and and are trying like really trying to um trying to um trying to um scrutinize the evidence from all the scrutinize the evidence from all the scrutinize the evidence from all the different angles that you could sort of different angles that you could sort of different angles that you could sort of see like what's going on here.

see like what's going on here. see like what's going on here. >> Let's go back, Rebecca, to the original >> Let's go back, Rebecca, to the original >> Let's go back, Rebecca, to the original introduction I gave. introduction I gave. introduction I gave. We we know a lot about physical health. We we know a lot about physical health. We we know a lot about physical health. We know it's kind of a calories in We know it's kind of a calories in We know it's kind of a calories in calorie out kind of deal in ter when it calorie out kind of deal in ter when it calorie out kind of deal in ter when it comes to our weight. We know about diet comes to our weight. We know about diet comes to our weight. We know about diet and exercise. But even when we know and exercise. But even when we know and exercise. But even when we know these things, we often struggle to do these things, we often struggle to do these things, we often struggle to do what's best for ourselves. That that what's best for ourselves. That that what's best for ourselves. That that Romans 7 struggle continues to to reach Romans 7 struggle continues to to reach Romans 7 struggle continues to to reach out. I wonder does something similar out. I wonder does something similar out. I wonder does something similar happen with with church or is it happen with with church or is it happen with with church or is it actually the case that people don't know actually the case that people don't know actually the case that people don't know that they need to work out at least that they need to work out at least that they need to work out at least three times a week and eat lots of three times a week and eat lots of three times a week and eat lots of protein and vegetables. Is it a is it a protein and vegetables. Is it a is it a protein and vegetables. Is it a is it a will problem or a knowledge problem? will problem or a knowledge problem? will problem or a knowledge problem? >> Yeah, I think it's both. I I think >> Yeah, I think it's both. I I think >> Yeah, I think it's both. I I think tragically there are millions of people tragically there are millions of people tragically there are millions of people around us who around us who around us who don't know that church is what they need don't know that church is what they need don't know that church is what they need even even at a kind of datadriven level even even at a kind of datadriven level even even at a kind of datadriven level and and perhaps who are longing for the and and perhaps who are longing for the and and perhaps who are longing for the thing that will help them with their thing that will help them with their thing that will help them with their mental health. uh the thing that will mental health. uh the thing that will mental health. uh the thing that will give them a sense of of purpose and give them a sense of of purpose and give them a sense of of purpose and meaning in community and they they don't meaning in community and they they don't meaning in community and they they don't see church as an option or and this is see church as an option or and this is see church as an option or and this is true of of millions of Americans as far true of of millions of Americans as far true of of millions of Americans as far as the research shows would be open to as the research shows would be open to as the research shows would be open to coming to church if somebody invited coming to church if somebody invited coming to church if somebody invited them and I think it's very easy if if them and I think it's very easy if if them and I think it's very easy if if you like me and Colin are followers of you like me and Colin are followers of you like me and Colin are followers of Jesus it's easy to sort of assume that Jesus it's easy to sort of assume that Jesus it's easy to sort of assume that everybody around you is everybody around you is everybody around you is >> right >> right >> right >> hostile to Christianity I think >> hostile to Christianity I think >> hostile to Christianity I think especially if you live in you know I especially if you live in you know I especially if you live in you know I live in Cambridge/Boston which is I live in Cambridge/Boston which is I live in Cambridge/Boston which is I think the third least churched think the third least churched think the third least churched >> metropolitan area in America. Um, still

>> metropolitan area in America. Um, still >> metropolitan area in America. Um, still looks pretty churched compared to the UK looks pretty churched compared to the UK looks pretty churched compared to the UK where I come from, but you know, um, for where I come from, but you know, um, for where I come from, but you know, um, for sure there are people around me who have sure there are people around me who have sure there are people around me who have a a pretty deep hostility to to a a pretty deep hostility to to a a pretty deep hostility to to Christianity and would not be remotely Christianity and would not be remotely Christianity and would not be remotely interested in coming to church. However, interested in coming to church. However, interested in coming to church. However, there are also a lot of people even there are also a lot of people even there are also a lot of people even around me up here who were they invited around me up here who were they invited around me up here who were they invited to church would actually be quite open to church would actually be quite open to church would actually be quite open to coming. So, I think there's there is to coming. So, I think there's there is to coming. So, I think there's there is a knowledge problem. Um, I think there a knowledge problem. Um, I think there a knowledge problem. Um, I think there is a a kind of opportunity gap or a is a a kind of opportunity gap or a is a a kind of opportunity gap or a missed opportunity there because um I I missed opportunity there because um I I missed opportunity there because um I I don't think that those of us who are don't think that those of us who are don't think that those of us who are members of churches are sufficiently members of churches are sufficiently members of churches are sufficiently proactive about inviting people. Um, and proactive about inviting people. Um, and proactive about inviting people. Um, and I think there's also, and this is I think there's also, and this is I think there's also, and this is something that I kind of harp on about something that I kind of harp on about something that I kind of harp on about whenever I have a chance, Colin, so whenever I have a chance, Colin, so whenever I have a chance, Colin, so you'll be uh, you know, you'll be you'll be uh, you know, you'll be you'll be uh, you know, you'll be thinking Rebecca's playing her her usual thinking Rebecca's playing her her usual thinking Rebecca's playing her her usual tapes. I think we have a problem that tapes. I think we have a problem that tapes. I think we have a problem that all too often our churches are all too often our churches are all too often our churches are insufficiently Christian. insufficiently Christian. insufficiently Christian. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what do I mean by that? Well, one of >> And what do I mean by that? Well, one of >> And what do I mean by that? Well, one of the things I I I mean is that if you the things I I I mean is that if you the things I I I mean is that if you read the New Testament and you look at read the New Testament and you look at read the New Testament and you look at the kind of community ethics, the kind the kind of community ethics, the kind the kind of community ethics, the kind of deep family love that is involved in of deep family love that is involved in of deep family love that is involved in being a follower of Jesus. And then if being a follower of Jesus. And then if being a follower of Jesus. And then if you show up to church on a Sunday, you you show up to church on a Sunday, you you show up to church on a Sunday, you may or may not see a sort of mis mis may or may not see a sort of mis mis may or may not see a sort of mis mis mismatch between mismatch between mismatch between these two things. Um, I think it's these two things. Um, I think it's these two things. Um, I think it's really easy to see church for those who really easy to see church for those who really easy to see church for those who maybe were raised going to church or or maybe were raised going to church or or maybe were raised going to church or or kind of have a regular habit of going to kind of have a regular habit of going to kind of have a regular habit of going to church to see church is something that

church to see church is something that church to see church is something that you sort of do on a Sunday. Maybe if you you sort of do on a Sunday. Maybe if you you sort of do on a Sunday. Maybe if you like me and Colin have a a sort of a like me and Colin have a a sort of a like me and Colin have a a sort of a biological family you live with that you biological family you live with that you biological family you live with that you know you go to church with your family know you go to church with your family know you go to church with your family on a Sunday. In actual fact, we are on a Sunday. In actual fact, we are on a Sunday. In actual fact, we are going to church on a Sunday to be with going to church on a Sunday to be with going to church on a Sunday to be with our family. M our family. M our family. M >> and I think one of the the ways in which >> and I think one of the the ways in which >> and I think one of the the ways in which our churches at least in my experience our churches at least in my experience our churches at least in my experience in in in the west I think there there in in in the west I think there there in in in the west I think there there may be kind of different um things going may be kind of different um things going may be kind of different um things going on in different parts of the world. I on in different parts of the world. I on in different parts of the world. I wouldn't want to speak for for other wouldn't want to speak for for other wouldn't want to speak for for other continents. Um but if in my experiences continents. Um but if in my experiences continents. Um but if in my experiences of church in in the UK and the the US, of church in in the UK and the the US, of church in in the UK and the the US, I think we're insufficiently leaning I think we're insufficiently leaning I think we're insufficiently leaning into into into the New Testament community ethics. And the New Testament community ethics. And the New Testament community ethics. And when we start to do that, when we when we start to do that, when we when we start to do that, when we actually start to recognize, oh, actually start to recognize, oh, actually start to recognize, oh, the language of brothers and sisters the language of brothers and sisters the language of brothers and sisters isn't just sort of nice fluffy ideas. isn't just sort of nice fluffy ideas. isn't just sort of nice fluffy ideas. It's real. Like I need to treat the It's real. Like I need to treat the It's real. Like I need to treat the people in my local church like they are people in my local church like they are people in my local church like they are my blood family, my blood family, my blood family, which means I need to show up for them which means I need to show up for them which means I need to show up for them when they're sick. I need to hold them when they're sick. I need to hold them when they're sick. I need to hold them when they cry. I need to share my when they cry. I need to share my when they cry. I need to share my resources with them. Whether that's like resources with them. Whether that's like resources with them. Whether that's like paying for their needs when there's a paying for their needs when there's a paying for their needs when there's a shortfall or having them around for shortfall or having them around for shortfall or having them around for meals or letting them come stay in my meals or letting them come stay in my meals or letting them come stay in my house 242, house 242, house 242, >> etc., etc. Yeah. It's >> etc., etc. Yeah. It's >> etc., etc. Yeah. It's >> it's all there in in the New Testament.

>> it's all there in in the New Testament. >> it's all there in in the New Testament. >> Um and and when we start to do that, we >> Um and and when we start to do that, we >> Um and and when we start to do that, we find that church is find that church is find that church is so much better than we ever realized so much better than we ever realized so much better than we ever realized actually. Um there's a beautiful actually. Um there's a beautiful actually. Um there's a beautiful instances of of this recently in my own instances of of this recently in my own instances of of this recently in my own church up here. A young woman who um was church up here. A young woman who um was church up here. A young woman who um was part of our church and had you know very part of our church and had you know very part of our church and had you know very surprisingly for her age, somebody in surprisingly for her age, somebody in surprisingly for her age, somebody in her 20s had a major sort of traumatic her 20s had a major sort of traumatic her 20s had a major sort of traumatic brain um issue. Uh sort of had a a bleed brain um issue. Uh sort of had a a bleed brain um issue. Uh sort of had a a bleed in her brain which which left her in her brain which which left her in her brain which which left her hospitalized for for a number of months hospitalized for for a number of months hospitalized for for a number of months and then needing a whole lot of of care and then needing a whole lot of of care and then needing a whole lot of of care and just practical support. you know, and just practical support. you know, and just practical support. you know, people to drive her to the hospital, people to drive her to the hospital, people to drive her to the hospital, people to bring her meals, people to people to bring her meals, people to people to bring her meals, people to help her with paperwork, like all of the help her with paperwork, like all of the help her with paperwork, like all of the things. And our church mobilized around things. And our church mobilized around things. And our church mobilized around this need. this need. this need. >> Um, and it was an opportunity, you know, >> Um, and it was an opportunity, you know, >> Um, and it was an opportunity, you know, one among among many sort of large and one among among many sort of large and one among among many sort of large and small that you'll find if you if you small that you'll find if you if you small that you'll find if you if you really dig into a local church really dig into a local church really dig into a local church community. It's opportunity to really community. It's opportunity to really community. It's opportunity to really act like the family that we are. And act like the family that we are. And act like the family that we are. And that that involves a whole lot of work that that involves a whole lot of work that that involves a whole lot of work and a whole lot of giving of yourself and a whole lot of giving of yourself and a whole lot of giving of yourself and a whole lot of receiving in the most and a whole lot of receiving in the most and a whole lot of receiving in the most beautiful and profound way. It's also beautiful and profound way. It's also beautiful and profound way. It's also involves a whole lot of rubbing involves a whole lot of rubbing involves a whole lot of rubbing shoulders with very sinful people um you shoulders with very sinful people um you shoulders with very sinful people um you know like you and me, know like you and me, know like you and me, >> right? Like us.

>> right? Like us. >> right? Like us. >> So I I I don't want to paint a sort of >> So I I I don't want to paint a sort of >> So I I I don't want to paint a sort of utopian utopian utopian picture of church community. If you if picture of church community. If you if picture of church community. If you if you really dig into a local church, you really dig into a local church, you really dig into a local church, you'll get hurt before long. Like that's you'll get hurt before long. Like that's you'll get hurt before long. Like that's just that's just true. If you really just that's just true. If you really just that's just true. If you really invest in deep Christian fellowship, invest in deep Christian fellowship, invest in deep Christian fellowship, >> you it's going to be painful. Um you >> you it's going to be painful. Um you >> you it's going to be painful. Um you your sin and the other people's sin is your sin and the other people's sin is your sin and the other people's sin is going to going to going to >> erupt in various ways. Um and it's going >> erupt in various ways. Um and it's going >> erupt in various ways. Um and it's going to be rough. to be rough. to be rough. >> However, >> However, >> However, we we're sort of used to that in the we we're sort of used to that in the we we're sort of used to that in the context of biological family and we context of biological family and we context of biological family and we don't think, oh well, therefore we're don't think, oh well, therefore we're don't think, oh well, therefore we're going to give up on family. In fact, we going to give up on family. In fact, we going to give up on family. In fact, we think no, family is the one of the most think no, family is the one of the most think no, family is the one of the most precious things we have and and we'll precious things we have and and we'll precious things we have and and we'll put up with the we'll bear with one put up with the we'll bear with one put up with the we'll bear with one another in family because we know we another in family because we know we another in family because we know we know how good it is. Um, you know, know how good it is. Um, you know, know how good it is. Um, you know, likewise in church. And I think one of likewise in church. And I think one of likewise in church. And I think one of the the the amazing thing that's things that's amazing thing that's things that's amazing thing that's things that's happening right now, at least around me happening right now, at least around me happening right now, at least around me up here in Cambridge, Mass, and I'm I'm up here in Cambridge, Mass, and I'm I'm up here in Cambridge, Mass, and I'm I'm sort of hearing Tel in various other sort of hearing Tel in various other sort of hearing Tel in various other parts of the US and and the UK, parts of the US and and the UK, parts of the US and and the UK, is is a rising generation of people is is a rising generation of people is is a rising generation of people who've been raised on the diet of no who've been raised on the diet of no who've been raised on the diet of no church and who are realizing, oh, this church and who are realizing, oh, this church and who are realizing, oh, this is terrible. and actually finding in is terrible. and actually finding in is terrible. and actually finding in church the hope in Jesus that they need church the hope in Jesus that they need church the hope in Jesus that they need and the community of love that they and the community of love that they and the community of love that they need. Um, a couple of nights ago, we we need. Um, a couple of nights ago, we we need. Um, a couple of nights ago, we we hosted a Bible study um in our home sort hosted a Bible study um in our home sort hosted a Bible study um in our home sort of on a on a weekly basis as a part of of on a on a weekly basis as a part of of on a on a weekly basis as a part of part of our church and we just started

part of our church and we just started part of our church and we just started reading through the book of Acts reading through the book of Acts reading through the book of Acts together. together. together. And at one point uh towards the end of And at one point uh towards the end of And at one point uh towards the end of the the conversation where we were sort the the conversation where we were sort the the conversation where we were sort of talking about like what does this of talking about like what does this of talking about like what does this mean for us today? um this this mission mean for us today? um this this mission mean for us today? um this this mission of going out um like the the first of going out um like the the first of going out um like the the first disciples were called to Jerusalem, disciples were called to Jerusalem, disciples were called to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth. A sort of starting where you are earth. A sort of starting where you are earth. A sort of starting where you are and then going to the people you really and then going to the people you really and then going to the people you really don't like and then going beyond that don't like and then going beyond that don't like and then going beyond that and then going to the entire entire and then going to the entire entire and then going to the entire entire world. the sort of global mission world. the sort of global mission world. the sort of global mission and how easy it can be to look at those and how easy it can be to look at those and how easy it can be to look at those around us and think, "Oh, you know, that around us and think, "Oh, you know, that around us and think, "Oh, you know, that like Colin, he's the least likely person like Colin, he's the least likely person like Colin, he's the least likely person to become a like, I'm not even going to to become a like, I'm not even going to to become a like, I'm not even going to bother trying to talk to him about Jesus bother trying to talk to him about Jesus bother trying to talk to him about Jesus or trying to invite him to church or trying to invite him to church or trying to invite him to church because clearly he has no interest because clearly he has no interest because clearly he has no interest whatsoever." And I said to this group of whatsoever." And I said to this group of whatsoever." And I said to this group of people, so there probably about 25 of people, so there probably about 25 of people, so there probably about 25 of us, um, you know, ranging in age from, I us, um, you know, ranging in age from, I us, um, you know, ranging in age from, I mean, my kids are the youngest, but sort mean, my kids are the youngest, but sort mean, my kids are the youngest, but sort of ranging from mostly sort of early 20s of ranging from mostly sort of early 20s of ranging from mostly sort of early 20s to I in my mid-40s and my husband were to I in my mid-40s and my husband were to I in my mid-40s and my husband were kind of the the top cap of the the age kind of the the top cap of the the age kind of the the top cap of the the age range. And I said, raise your hand if range. And I said, raise your hand if range. And I said, raise your hand if five years ago people would have looked five years ago people would have looked five years ago people would have looked at you and said, "No way that person. No at you and said, "No way that person. No at you and said, "No way that person. No way that person."

way that person." way that person." And I knew that some hands would go up, And I knew that some hands would go up, And I knew that some hands would go up, but actually we had some new people but actually we had some new people but actually we had some new people there that night and like their hands there that night and like their hands there that night and like their hands were popping up as well. It was this were popping up as well. It was this were popping up as well. It was this whole slew of Gen Zers or Gen Zeders as whole slew of Gen Zers or Gen Zeders as whole slew of Gen Zers or Gen Zeders as we we Brits say who had come from a we we Brits say who had come from a we we Brits say who had come from a whole massive range of different whole massive range of different whole massive range of different backgrounds backgrounds backgrounds um who have found hope in Jesus when um who have found hope in Jesus when um who have found hope in Jesus when five years ago people have said five years ago people have said five years ago people have said absolutely no way. you know, the way absolutely no way. you know, the way absolutely no way. you know, the way that they identify, the way that they that they identify, the way that they that they identify, the way that they live, the way that they they thought or live, the way that they they thought or live, the way that they they thought or or, you know, talked about Christian or, you know, talked about Christian or, you know, talked about Christian things. No way. No way that person. And things. No way. No way that person. And things. No way. No way that person. And here they are. Oh, amen. I love hearing here they are. Oh, amen. I love hearing here they are. Oh, amen. I love hearing that. Um, in our evangelistic appeals, that. Um, in our evangelistic appeals, that. Um, in our evangelistic appeals, Rebecca, have we been underelling the Rebecca, have we been underelling the Rebecca, have we been underelling the temporal benefits of Christianity in temporal benefits of Christianity in temporal benefits of Christianity in favor of the eternal benefits? Do favor of the eternal benefits? Do favor of the eternal benefits? Do >> you know that's a really good question. >> you know that's a really good question. >> you know that's a really good question. Um because as as you gestured toward Um because as as you gestured toward Um because as as you gestured toward earlier, the message of the gospel is earlier, the message of the gospel is earlier, the message of the gospel is not come to church and be happy and not come to church and be happy and not come to church and be happy and healthy. healthy. healthy. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Um and in fact, if that's all we end up >> Um and in fact, if that's all we end up >> Um and in fact, if that's all we end up saying, we are robbing people of the saying, we are robbing people of the saying, we are robbing people of the gospel.

gospel. gospel. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and pick up your cross and follow me. >> Um and pick up your cross and follow me. >> Um and pick up your cross and follow me. I mean, I mean, I mean, >> we're making absolutely false promises. >> we're making absolutely false promises. >> we're making absolutely false promises. However, I I do think it is a a useful However, I I do think it is a a useful However, I I do think it is a a useful hook, for one of a better word, hook, for one of a better word, hook, for one of a better word, um to say to um to say to um to say to a society that is a society that is a society that is lonely. I mean, we've got a lonely. I mean, we've got a lonely. I mean, we've got a officially diagnosed epidemic of officially diagnosed epidemic of officially diagnosed epidemic of loneliness around us. loneliness around us. loneliness around us. um and he was struggling for for meaning um and he was struggling for for meaning um and he was struggling for for meaning and connection and purpose and all the and connection and purpose and all the and connection and purpose and all the things to say actually I know you you things to say actually I know you you things to say actually I know you you may not have even considered church as may not have even considered church as may not have even considered church as being a place to find these things but being a place to find these things but being a place to find these things but um you know experts at the Harvard um you know experts at the Harvard um you know experts at the Harvard School of Public Health say maybe that School of Public Health say maybe that School of Public Health say maybe that that could be a place to to start like that could be a place to to start like that could be a place to to start like it's just just a sort of opening of the it's just just a sort of opening of the it's just just a sort of opening of the door door door >> um and a a nudge a nudge in the >> um and a a nudge a nudge in the >> um and a a nudge a nudge in the direction of you know maybe just maybe direction of you know maybe just maybe direction of you know maybe just maybe just try church, maybe just sort of see just try church, maybe just sort of see just try church, maybe just sort of see see what happens. Um, see what happens. Um, see what happens. Um, and one of the things that I try to be and one of the things that I try to be and one of the things that I try to be really clear about in my conversations really clear about in my conversations really clear about in my conversations with people who are who are not with people who are who are not with people who are who are not Christians and maybe for various reasons Christians and maybe for various reasons Christians and maybe for various reasons very skeptical of Christianity is to be very skeptical of Christianity is to be very skeptical of Christianity is to be very upfront about the fact that very upfront about the fact that very upfront about the fact that Christianity is making wild, crazy, and Christianity is making wild, crazy, and Christianity is making wild, crazy, and offensive claims.

offensive claims. offensive claims. >> Yeah. Um, I think there's a temptation >> Yeah. Um, I think there's a temptation >> Yeah. Um, I think there's a temptation to try and adjust the message of to try and adjust the message of to try and adjust the message of Christianity to fit with what people Christianity to fit with what people Christianity to fit with what people around us believe that that they may not around us believe that that they may not around us believe that that they may not align with Christianity at all. And align with Christianity at all. And align with Christianity at all. And instead, I think I think we can we can instead, I think I think we can we can instead, I think I think we can we can perhaps start with the things that we perhaps start with the things that we perhaps start with the things that we share as common beliefs. Um, you know, share as common beliefs. Um, you know, share as common beliefs. Um, you know, we've we've talked a little about the we've we've talked a little about the we've we've talked a little about the ethical beliefs that we will share with ethical beliefs that we will share with ethical beliefs that we will share with our friends, even if they've come to our friends, even if they've come to our friends, even if they've come to completely different moral conclusions completely different moral conclusions completely different moral conclusions than us on a number of of topics that than us on a number of of topics that than us on a number of of topics that will will actually have sort of very will will actually have sort of very will will actually have sort of very similar starting points in terms of um similar starting points in terms of um similar starting points in terms of um universal equality and and love and and universal equality and and love and and universal equality and and love and and care, etc. care, etc. care, etc. Um, but but to then also be very open Um, but but to then also be very open Um, but but to then also be very open about the about the about the offensive claims that that Christianity offensive claims that that Christianity offensive claims that that Christianity is making, but to do so in a way that is is making, but to do so in a way that is is making, but to do so in a way that is paired with the love that Christians are paired with the love that Christians are paired with the love that Christians are to offer not only to one another, but to offer not only to one another, but to offer not only to one another, but also to even their enemies. Um, I I love also to even their enemies. Um, I I love also to even their enemies. Um, I I love what what Peter says um in his first what what Peter says um in his first what what Peter says um in his first letter where he says, "Always be ready letter where he says, "Always be ready letter where he says, "Always be ready to give a reason for the hope that you to give a reason for the hope that you to give a reason for the hope that you have, but do so with gentleness and have, but do so with gentleness and have, but do so with gentleness and respect.

respect. respect. And I think people can tell when we're And I think people can tell when we're And I think people can tell when we're treating them with respect. It's not the treating them with respect. It's not the treating them with respect. It's not the same as as not disagreeing with them same as as not disagreeing with them same as as not disagreeing with them even with their deepest beliefs. Um you even with their deepest beliefs. Um you even with their deepest beliefs. Um you can actually fundamentally disagree with can actually fundamentally disagree with can actually fundamentally disagree with somebody's beliefs in a way that's very somebody's beliefs in a way that's very somebody's beliefs in a way that's very respectful of them as a human being. um respectful of them as a human being. um respectful of them as a human being. um and and where we are kind of actively and and where we are kind of actively and and where we are kind of actively showing love to them and appreciation of showing love to them and appreciation of showing love to them and appreciation of them as a person while at the same time them as a person while at the same time them as a person while at the same time being open about the the profound being open about the the profound being open about the the profound differences between what we believe and differences between what we believe and differences between what we believe and what they believe and how we're not what they believe and how we're not what they believe and how we're not saying oh well you know you do you um saying oh well you know you do you um saying oh well you know you do you um I'm not you know I'm not making I'm I'm not you know I'm not making I'm I'm not you know I'm not making I'm saying Jesus works for me but I'm not saying Jesus works for me but I'm not saying Jesus works for me but I'm not saying Jesus works for everybody kind of saying Jesus works for everybody kind of saying Jesus works for everybody kind of thing but saying no actually I am saying thing but saying no actually I am saying thing but saying no actually I am saying that I'm I'm saying that Jesus is the that I'm I'm saying that Jesus is the that I'm I'm saying that Jesus is the only way the the only hope the only only way the the only hope the only only way the the only hope the only truth, the only life, the only source of truth, the only life, the only source of truth, the only life, the only source of love that we have and that without him love that we have and that without him love that we have and that without him we will die forever. We will we will we will die forever. We will we will we will die forever. We will we will face God's everlasting judgment on our face God's everlasting judgment on our face God's everlasting judgment on our sin. Um I think we can be sin. Um I think we can be sin. Um I think we can be clear about those things clear about those things clear about those things with love in our hearts and tears in our with love in our hearts and tears in our with love in our hearts and tears in our eyes as we talk with our our friends and eyes as we talk with our our friends and eyes as we talk with our our friends and neighbors who who are not Christians. Um neighbors who who are not Christians. Um neighbors who who are not Christians. Um yeah, I mean there's a a yeah, I mean there's a a yeah, I mean there's a a gospel tract that's coming out sort of gospel tract that's coming out sort of gospel tract that's coming out sort of in conjunction with with this book and I in conjunction with with this book and I in conjunction with with this book and I I ran it by a friend of mine um who I I I ran it by a friend of mine um who I I I ran it by a friend of mine um who I I see routinely who is identifies as an see routinely who is identifies as an see routinely who is identifies as an atheist but has various sort of atheist but has various sort of atheist but has various sort of spiritual like essentially pagan spiritual like essentially pagan spiritual like essentially pagan spiritual beliefs and um identifies as a

spiritual beliefs and um identifies as a spiritual beliefs and um identifies as a lesbian and has very like in all sorts lesbian and has very like in all sorts lesbian and has very like in all sorts of ways has very kind of different of ways has very kind of different of ways has very kind of different ideological ideological ideological um beliefs than I do. But I've had the um beliefs than I do. But I've had the um beliefs than I do. But I've had the privilege of sharing the gospel with her privilege of sharing the gospel with her privilege of sharing the gospel with her multiple times and um of encouraging her multiple times and um of encouraging her multiple times and um of encouraging her to just to just to just take the message seriously. I've told take the message seriously. I've told take the message seriously. I've told her, you know, I pray for her every day. her, you know, I pray for her every day. her, you know, I pray for her every day. I have not softpedled on the I have not softpedled on the I have not softpedled on the offensiveness of offensiveness of offensiveness of >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> of what I'm saying. But actually, it's >> of what I'm saying. But actually, it's >> of what I'm saying. But actually, it's the gospel that is the offensive the the the gospel that is the offensive the the the gospel that is the offensive the the major offense of the Christian faith. major offense of the Christian faith. major offense of the Christian faith. It's not it's not actually, you know, It's not it's not actually, you know, It's not it's not actually, you know, what Christians believe about sexual what Christians believe about sexual what Christians believe about sexual ethics or gender or whatever. Like those ethics or gender or whatever. Like those ethics or gender or whatever. Like those things are sort of um flow out of the things are sort of um flow out of the things are sort of um flow out of the gospel and are subordinately offensive, gospel and are subordinately offensive, gospel and are subordinately offensive, I guess I'd say. Um but the central I guess I'd say. Um but the central I guess I'd say. Um but the central offense of of Christianity is the gospel offense of of Christianity is the gospel offense of of Christianity is the gospel itself. Um and many people in our itself. Um and many people in our itself. Um and many people in our culture just haven't heard it. They culture just haven't heard it. They culture just haven't heard it. They don't they don't know what the claims of don't they don't know what the claims of don't they don't know what the claims of Jesus are. Jesus are. Jesus are. >> Yeah. And we have the privilege and >> Yeah. And we have the privilege and >> Yeah. And we have the privilege and responsibility and the fearful task responsibility and the fearful task responsibility and the fearful task of telling them and inviting them to of telling them and inviting them to of telling them and inviting them to come and see what that looks like lived come and see what that looks like lived come and see what that looks like lived out.

out. out. Yeah. Amen. I can't remember Rebecca, do Yeah. Amen. I can't remember Rebecca, do Yeah. Amen. I can't remember Rebecca, do you talk in this book about the you talk in this book about the you talk in this book about the Christians who stayed during the Christians who stayed during the Christians who stayed during the pandemics in Rome? Do you bring that up pandemics in Rome? Do you bring that up pandemics in Rome? Do you bring that up in this book? in this book? in this book? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sorry. Maybe I should have done. Well, >> Sorry. Maybe I should have done. Well, >> Sorry. Maybe I should have done. Well, well, the reason I I I couldn't remember well, the reason I I I couldn't remember well, the reason I I I couldn't remember because it fits so well with what you're because it fits so well with what you're because it fits so well with what you're talking about here of some of the talking about here of some of the talking about here of some of the temporal benefits, but how they lead to temporal benefits, but how they lead to temporal benefits, but how they lead to the eternal benefits because you see the the eternal benefits because you see the the eternal benefits because you see the motivation of Christians to stay in Rome motivation of Christians to stay in Rome motivation of Christians to stay in Rome when everybody else is fleeing during when everybody else is fleeing during when everybody else is fleeing during the pandemics and then you see the the pandemics and then you see the the pandemics and then you see the tangible benefit which was 50% tangible benefit which was 50% tangible benefit which was 50% improvement in mort uh in kind of improvement in mort uh in kind of improvement in mort uh in kind of defeating the mortality rate of the defeating the mortality rate of the defeating the mortality rate of the pandemic, the survival right? Just if pandemic, the survival right? Just if pandemic, the survival right? Just if there was somebody there to care for there was somebody there to care for there was somebody there to care for them, them, them, >> just to give them food, just to give >> just to give them food, just to give >> just to give them food, just to give them water, them water, them water, >> and and lo and behold, they were much >> and and lo and behold, they were much >> and and lo and behold, they were much more likely to survive. And then more likely to survive. And then more likely to survive. And then afterward, those people were much more afterward, those people were much more afterward, those people were much more willing to believe in Christianity and willing to believe in Christianity and willing to believe in Christianity and to and to to profess faith in Christ to and to to profess faith in Christ to and to to profess faith in Christ after that experience. It seems like in after that experience. It seems like in after that experience. It seems like in some ways it's fairly analogous to what some ways it's fairly analogous to what some ways it's fairly analogous to what you're trying to do in this book.

you're trying to do in this book. you're trying to do in this book. >> Yeah. And for those who might be conf I >> Yeah. And for those who might be conf I >> Yeah. And for those who might be conf I think when we hear the word pandemic think when we hear the word pandemic think when we hear the word pandemic today, we sort of immediately think CO today, we sort of immediately think CO today, we sort of immediately think CO 19. You're talking about like plague. 19. You're talking about like plague. 19. You're talking about like plague. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Plague. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Plague. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Plague. Yeah. Straight up plague. Yeah. Smallox, Yeah. Straight up plague. Yeah. Smallox, Yeah. Straight up plague. Yeah. Smallox, whatever you want to say back then. whatever you want to say back then. whatever you want to say back then. Yeah. And I think this is Yeah. And I think this is Yeah. And I think this is >> this is one place again where I think >> this is one place again where I think >> this is one place again where I think often the the radical call of the New often the the radical call of the New often the the radical call of the New Testament gets lost in people's minds Testament gets lost in people's minds Testament gets lost in people's minds and gets lost honestly often in in the and gets lost honestly often in in the and gets lost honestly often in in the minds of of believers um in Jesus is minds of of believers um in Jesus is minds of of believers um in Jesus is that that that we're so used to the kind of we're so used to the kind of we're so used to the kind of polarization in culture and the the polarization in culture and the the polarization in culture and the the derogatory the sort of denigration of derogatory the sort of denigration of derogatory the sort of denigration of everyone with whom you disagree that's everyone with whom you disagree that's everyone with whom you disagree that's sort of you know so kind of normalized sort of you know so kind of normalized sort of you know so kind of normalized and the the hostility toward um those and the the hostility toward um those and the the hostility toward um those you might have, you know, fundamental you might have, you know, fundamental you might have, you know, fundamental disagreements with disagreements with disagreements with that. It can almost feel like that that. It can almost feel like that that. It can almost feel like that participating in that would be like an participating in that would be like an participating in that would be like an expression of Christian faithfulness expression of Christian faithfulness expression of Christian faithfulness when actually the New Testament is when actually the New Testament is when actually the New Testament is calling us to actively love calling us to actively love calling us to actively love even those people who might be wanting even those people who might be wanting even those people who might be wanting to like actively persecute us. And to like actively persecute us. And to like actively persecute us. And that's, you know, often not the case or that's, you know, often not the case or that's, you know, often not the case or at least in a in a much um sort of at least in a in a much um sort of at least in a in a much um sort of scaled down um way today than it was um scaled down um way today than it was um scaled down um way today than it was um in the the first centuries of the in the the first centuries of the in the the first centuries of the church. Um church. Um church. Um >> yeah.

>> yeah. >> yeah. >> And so it's not that I need to identify >> And so it's not that I need to identify >> And so it's not that I need to identify those people outside the church who, you those people outside the church who, you those people outside the church who, you know, I'm called to hate and be sure know, I'm called to hate and be sure know, I'm called to hate and be sure that I um am loud in my hatred of them. that I um am loud in my hatred of them. that I um am loud in my hatred of them. Actually, everybody both inside and Actually, everybody both inside and Actually, everybody both inside and outside the church is somebody I'm outside the church is somebody I'm outside the church is somebody I'm called to love. And Loving somebody called to love. And Loving somebody called to love. And Loving somebody includes telling them the truth. Um, and includes telling them the truth. Um, and includes telling them the truth. Um, and it includes it includes it includes offering them hospitality and it offering them hospitality and it offering them hospitality and it includes sticking up for them when other includes sticking up for them when other includes sticking up for them when other people are telling lies about them. And people are telling lies about them. And people are telling lies about them. And it includes listening to the best it includes listening to the best it includes listening to the best version of what they're saying and version of what they're saying and version of what they're saying and trying to engage with that rather than trying to engage with that rather than trying to engage with that rather than sort of strawmaning their arguments. And sort of strawmaning their arguments. And sort of strawmaning their arguments. And it includes um laughing with them and it includes um laughing with them and it includes um laughing with them and you know just like you know just like you know just like seeking basic human connection with seeking basic human connection with seeking basic human connection with them. Um, you know, we know we know what them. Um, you know, we know we know what them. Um, you know, we know we know what love looks like when we experience it. love looks like when we experience it. love looks like when we experience it. And and often And and often And and often non-Christians around us, if we're non-Christians around us, if we're non-Christians around us, if we're followers of Jesus, know what love looks followers of Jesus, know what love looks followers of Jesus, know what love looks like when they see it in us, even if like when they see it in us, even if like when they see it in us, even if they might have expected something very they might have expected something very they might have expected something very different from us.

different from us. different from us. I mean, that's part of the common grace, I mean, that's part of the common grace, I mean, that's part of the common grace, part of the image of God to recognize part of the image of God to recognize part of the image of God to recognize that love and the and the blessing of that love and the and the blessing of that love and the and the blessing of God to be able to see where the source God to be able to see where the source God to be able to see where the source and to trace back the source of that and to trace back the source of that and to trace back the source of that love as well. Um, as relates to another love as well. Um, as relates to another love as well. Um, as relates to another question I was wanting to ask, do we question I was wanting to ask, do we question I was wanting to ask, do we need to worry here at all about need to worry here at all about need to worry here at all about confusing the giver with the gifts or do confusing the giver with the gifts or do confusing the giver with the gifts or do you think we're so far on the other side you think we're so far on the other side you think we're so far on the other side that we kind of need to work backward to that we kind of need to work backward to that we kind of need to work backward to be able to from the gifts to find the be able to from the gifts to find the be able to from the gifts to find the giver? Yeah, it's it's fascinating when giver? Yeah, it's it's fascinating when giver? Yeah, it's it's fascinating when you read the New Testament you read the New Testament you read the New Testament how much it bangs on about love and how how much it bangs on about love and how how much it bangs on about love and how much it bangs on about Jesus's death and much it bangs on about Jesus's death and much it bangs on about Jesus's death and God's love for us being the source of God's love for us being the source of God's love for us being the source of our love. our love. our love. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um you know in John's first letter he >> Um you know in John's first letter he >> Um you know in John's first letter he says this is how we know what love is. says this is how we know what love is. says this is how we know what love is. Jesus Christ laid down his life for us Jesus Christ laid down his life for us Jesus Christ laid down his life for us >> and we ought to also to lay down our >> and we ought to also to lay down our >> and we ought to also to lay down our lives for the brothers. And that's, you lives for the brothers. And that's, you lives for the brothers. And that's, you know, the consistent theme. know, the consistent theme. know, the consistent theme. And if we are inviting people into And if we are inviting people into And if we are inviting people into Christian community and saying, "Hey, Christian community and saying, "Hey, Christian community and saying, "Hey, um, come and hang out with us because um, come and hang out with us because um, come and hang out with us because we're really good people. We're really we're really good people. We're really we're really good people. We're really loving. We're really nice." They will loving. We're really nice." They will loving. We're really nice." They will soon find out that that's not true.

soon find out that that's not true. soon find out that that's not true. We're actually not. Like, um, we're not We're actually not. Like, um, we're not We're actually not. Like, um, we're not really good people, you know? We're really good people, you know? We're really good people, you know? We're we're quite selfish and and proud and we're quite selfish and and proud and we're quite selfish and and proud and vain and lustful and envious and like vain and lustful and envious and like vain and lustful and envious and like all the all the things. all the all the things. all the all the things. Um, Um, Um, and people are going to see through that and people are going to see through that and people are going to see through that pretty quickly if we if we try to pretty quickly if we if we try to pretty quickly if we if we try to present ourselves as the savior present ourselves as the savior present ourselves as the savior essentially, you know, if we sort of essentially, you know, if we sort of essentially, you know, if we sort of present a a gospel of of um Christian present a a gospel of of um Christian present a a gospel of of um Christian moral uprightness. moral uprightness. moral uprightness. >> Well, not to mention Mormons can be that >> Well, not to mention Mormons can be that >> Well, not to mention Mormons can be that way, Muslims can be that way, gay way, Muslims can be that way, gay way, Muslims can be that way, gay communities can be very morally upright communities can be very morally upright communities can be very morally upright in many ways and very welcoming. It's in many ways and very welcoming. It's in many ways and very welcoming. It's not entirely distinctive. not entirely distinctive. not entirely distinctive. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I it's it is >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I it's it is >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I it's it is unusual I think in in our modern world unusual I think in in our modern world unusual I think in in our modern world not least when you see people just not least when you see people just not least when you see people just loving each other across real loving each other across real loving each other across real difference. difference. difference. >> Yeah. Across the differences is >> Yeah. Across the differences is >> Yeah. Across the differences is different. Yeah. different. Yeah. different. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I remember a friend of mine >> Yeah. Yeah, I remember a friend of mine >> Yeah. Yeah, I remember a friend of mine um many years ago who had been involved um many years ago who had been involved um many years ago who had been involved in church for some time and then had had in church for some time and then had had in church for some time and then had had very much kind of left and this was very much kind of left and this was very much kind of left and this was about a decade later about a decade later about a decade later and she had become very successful in and she had become very successful in and she had become very successful in her career and was married to somebody her career and was married to somebody her career and was married to somebody who was very successful in his career who was very successful in his career who was very successful in his career and everything was very you know there and everything was very you know there and everything was very you know there was the a lot of money and a lot of um was the a lot of money and a lot of um was the a lot of money and a lot of um material success and and status material success and and status material success and and status and she was reflecting on the fact that and she was reflecting on the fact that and she was reflecting on the fact that her life involves no meaningful overlap her life involves no meaningful overlap her life involves no meaningful overlap with anybody who is not kind of like her with anybody who is not kind of like her with anybody who is not kind of like her in those ways. You know, her kids are in

in those ways. You know, her kids are in in those ways. You know, her kids are in private schools. her she and her husband private schools. her she and her husband private schools. her she and her husband go to, you know, workplaces where go to, you know, workplaces where go to, you know, workplaces where they're encountering other people they're encountering other people they're encountering other people similarly, you know, um, similarly, you know, um, similarly, you know, um, socioeconomically socioeconomically socioeconomically top of the tree top of the tree top of the tree and how she sort of felt the gap of that and how she sort of felt the gap of that and how she sort of felt the gap of that that it it felt it felt like there was that it it felt it felt like there was that it it felt it felt like there was something off because she was really something off because she was really something off because she was really only associating with people like her. only associating with people like her. only associating with people like her. >> Yeah. And I think church is one of the >> Yeah. And I think church is one of the >> Yeah. And I think church is one of the very very few places in our modern world very very few places in our modern world very very few places in our modern world where you're meaningfully connecting where you're meaningfully connecting where you're meaningfully connecting with people who might be decades older with people who might be decades older with people who might be decades older or younger than you. Um, massively or younger than you. Um, massively or younger than you. Um, massively richer or poorer than you, have come richer or poorer than you, have come richer or poorer than you, have come from completely other parts of the world from completely other parts of the world from completely other parts of the world than you. I mean, that's probably more than you. I mean, that's probably more than you. I mean, that's probably more so the case where I am in Cambridge so the case where I am in Cambridge so the case where I am in Cambridge because there's, you know, so much because there's, you know, so much because there's, you know, so much >> people come from so many different >> people come from so many different >> people come from so many different places. I'm not saying like every um places. I'm not saying like every um places. I'm not saying like every um every city in in America or in the UK is every city in in America or in the UK is every city in in America or in the UK is going to have the exact same sort of going to have the exact same sort of going to have the exact same sort of diversity of origin diversity of origin diversity of origin um as as we do here. Though I do think um as as we do here. Though I do think um as as we do here. Though I do think it's a little kind of glimpse of what it's a little kind of glimpse of what it's a little kind of glimpse of what the New Testament tells us to look the New Testament tells us to look the New Testament tells us to look forward to in the New Creation. People forward to in the New Creation. People forward to in the New Creation. People from every tribe and tongue and nation from every tribe and tongue and nation from every tribe and tongue and nation worshiping Jesus together. Um but worshiping Jesus together. Um but worshiping Jesus together. Um but there's just yeah meaningful there's just yeah meaningful there's just yeah meaningful relationship between people who just relationship between people who just relationship between people who just wouldn't have it otherwise.

wouldn't have it otherwise. wouldn't have it otherwise. Um, and and one of one of the fun kind Um, and and one of one of the fun kind Um, and and one of one of the fun kind of byproducts of this of byproducts of this of byproducts of this is that is that is that if you're embedded in Christian if you're embedded in Christian if you're embedded in Christian community, community, community, getting older doesn't make you less getting older doesn't make you less getting older doesn't make you less relevant. It actually in some ways makes relevant. It actually in some ways makes relevant. It actually in some ways makes you more needed. Um, so I as a woman in you more needed. Um, so I as a woman in you more needed. Um, so I as a woman in my my mid-40s, you know, I'm sort of my my mid-40s, you know, I'm sort of my my mid-40s, you know, I'm sort of properly middle-aged at this point. properly middle-aged at this point. properly middle-aged at this point. >> And I have multiple close meaningful >> And I have multiple close meaningful >> And I have multiple close meaningful relationships relationships relationships with young women and some young men as with young women and some young men as with young women and some young men as well who are one or two decades younger well who are one or two decades younger well who are one or two decades younger than I am. than I am. than I am. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And who who sort of come to me for the kinds who who sort of come to me for the kinds who who sort of come to me for the kinds of things that you come to your mom for. of things that you come to your mom for. of things that you come to your mom for. um um um or your big sister, you know, there's or your big sister, you know, there's or your big sister, you know, there's sort of there's a a family kind of sort of there's a a family kind of sort of there's a a family kind of element to that. Um, and I think, you element to that. Um, and I think, you element to that. Um, and I think, you know, people in their 20s and even 30s know, people in their 20s and even 30s know, people in their 20s and even 30s right now are actually desperate for right now are actually desperate for right now are actually desperate for older people in their lives older people in their lives older people in their lives to give them, you know, whether it's the to give them, you know, whether it's the to give them, you know, whether it's the advice they need or the comfort they advice they need or the comfort they advice they need or the comfort they need or the hug they need or the meal need or the hug they need or the meal need or the hug they need or the meal that they need or the sort of sense of that they need or the sort of sense of that they need or the sort of sense of of home that they need as they live far of home that they need as they live far of home that they need as they live far from their their place of of origin and from their their place of of origin and from their their place of of origin and their their parents or if they're kind their their parents or if they're kind their their parents or if they're kind of alienated from their parents for for of alienated from their parents for for of alienated from their parents for for whatever reason.

whatever reason. whatever reason. And yeah, I I feel rather that, you And yeah, I I feel rather that, you And yeah, I I feel rather that, you know, in in a culture which I I think know, in in a culture which I I think know, in in a culture which I I think it's fair to say perhaps especially for it's fair to say perhaps especially for it's fair to say perhaps especially for for women makes you feel like, oh well, for women makes you feel like, oh well, for women makes you feel like, oh well, you know, the older you get, the less you know, the older you get, the less you know, the older you get, the less >> the less you matter, as it were. Um, I >> the less you matter, as it were. Um, I >> the less you matter, as it were. Um, I think within a healthy church, it's think within a healthy church, it's think within a healthy church, it's really not like that at all. Um, I feel really not like that at all. Um, I feel really not like that at all. Um, I feel like I have, you know, middle-aged women like I have, you know, middle-aged women like I have, you know, middle-aged women superpowers of of being able to to give superpowers of of being able to to give superpowers of of being able to to give the kind of love to the younger the kind of love to the younger the kind of love to the younger generation that people really need. um generation that people really need. um generation that people really need. um you know to give the the young guy in you know to give the the young guy in you know to give the the young guy in his 20ies who is starved for affection his 20ies who is starved for affection his 20ies who is starved for affection um the hug that he needs and also the um the hug that he needs and also the um the hug that he needs and also the kind of telling off that he needs. Um to kind of telling off that he needs. Um to kind of telling off that he needs. Um to give you know the young give you know the young give you know the young >> woman who is trying to navigate what on >> woman who is trying to navigate what on >> woman who is trying to navigate what on earth dating looks like in our crazy earth dating looks like in our crazy earth dating looks like in our crazy modern world the sort of modern world the sort of modern world the sort of >> um the pep talk that she needs to not um >> um the pep talk that she needs to not um >> um the pep talk that she needs to not um not fall for any of the the lies that not fall for any of the the lies that not fall for any of the the lies that are circulated about um what women are circulated about um what women are circulated about um what women should expect from men etc. should expect from men etc. should expect from men etc. >> Oh amen. Sounds like the church being >> Oh amen. Sounds like the church being >> Oh amen. Sounds like the church being the church. Um, couple quick questions the church. Um, couple quick questions the church. Um, couple quick questions here with Rebecca Mccclaclin talking here with Rebecca Mccclaclin talking here with Rebecca Mccclaclin talking about how church could literally save about how church could literally save about how church could literally save your life. New book with Crossway and your life. New book with Crossway and your life. New book with Crossway and TGC. Um, again, these could be very long TGC. Um, again, these could be very long TGC. Um, again, these could be very long questions, but looking to try to try to questions, but looking to try to try to questions, but looking to try to try to see if we can sneak a couple more in see if we can sneak a couple more in see if we can sneak a couple more in here. Um, what do you say to those who here. Um, what do you say to those who here. Um, what do you say to those who have been hurt in the church have been hurt in the church have been hurt in the church >> and felt like to survive they had to >> and felt like to survive they had to >> and felt like to survive they had to leave?

leave? leave? >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's many >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's many >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's many people. Um that's no small uh people. Um that's no small uh people. Um that's no small uh demographic. And I think people have demographic. And I think people have demographic. And I think people have been hurt for a whole range of reasons. been hurt for a whole range of reasons. been hurt for a whole range of reasons. Um including your horrific abuse. Um Um including your horrific abuse. Um Um including your horrific abuse. Um whether whether whether >> abuse that they've directly experienced >> abuse that they've directly experienced >> abuse that they've directly experienced themselves or whether they've seen um themselves or whether they've seen um themselves or whether they've seen um abuse of others covered up um and sort abuse of others covered up um and sort abuse of others covered up um and sort of perpetuated and enabled in church of perpetuated and enabled in church of perpetuated and enabled in church communities. communities. communities. And all of that is horrifying. Um or or And all of that is horrifying. Um or or And all of that is horrifying. Um or or whether it's people who've who've been whether it's people who've who've been whether it's people who've who've been part of church communities and and found part of church communities and and found part of church communities and and found themselves just left out um for for themselves just left out um for for themselves just left out um for for whatever reason. Um I was talking with a whatever reason. Um I was talking with a whatever reason. Um I was talking with a friend a couple years ago who was saying friend a couple years ago who was saying friend a couple years ago who was saying that her her mom who's a single mother that her her mom who's a single mother that her her mom who's a single mother um had raised her going to church and um had raised her going to church and um had raised her going to church and now doesn't go to church. And the reason now doesn't go to church. And the reason now doesn't go to church. And the reason is that married couples would make plans is that married couples would make plans is that married couples would make plans with one another in front of her face with one another in front of her face with one another in front of her face and not include her just like week after and not include her just like week after and not include her just like week after week. Um, and so I think there are there week. Um, and so I think there are there week. Um, and so I think there are there a whole range of reasons why and how a whole range of reasons why and how a whole range of reasons why and how people have got really hurt and become people have got really hurt and become people have got really hurt and become very disillusioned in the context of very disillusioned in the context of very disillusioned in the context of church.

church. church. And I think those those wounds are real. And I think those those wounds are real. And I think those those wounds are real. And I I don't want to gloss over them And I I don't want to gloss over them And I I don't want to gloss over them for a second, for a second, for a second, but I think this is where the the but I think this is where the the but I think this is where the the analogy of family, which is something analogy of family, which is something analogy of family, which is something that the the New Testament gives to us, that the the New Testament gives to us, that the the New Testament gives to us, is is really helpful is is really helpful is is really helpful because the the fact is an awful lot of because the the fact is an awful lot of because the the fact is an awful lot of abuse and hurt of various kinds happens abuse and hurt of various kinds happens abuse and hurt of various kinds happens in the context of family. in the context of family. in the context of family. Um, Um, Um, and we can recognize that that is true and we can recognize that that is true and we can recognize that that is true without saying, do you know what would without saying, do you know what would without saying, do you know what would be great is if we just didn't have be great is if we just didn't have be great is if we just didn't have family. family. family. Um, in fact, I would just be I'd be so Um, in fact, I would just be I'd be so Um, in fact, I would just be I'd be so so much happier so much happier so much happier living without any deep family living without any deep family living without any deep family connection because I've been hurt in the connection because I've been hurt in the connection because I've been hurt in the context of family. And I, you know, I context of family. And I, you know, I context of family. And I, you know, I can understand how people might have can understand how people might have can understand how people might have that that initial like visceral that that initial like visceral that that initial like visceral response, response, response, but actually what we need if we've been but actually what we need if we've been but actually what we need if we've been hurt in the context of an unhealthy hurt in the context of an unhealthy hurt in the context of an unhealthy family is the love of a healthy family. family is the love of a healthy family. family is the love of a healthy family. >> Yeah. A healthy family. Yeah. >> Yeah. A healthy family. Yeah. >> Yeah. A healthy family. Yeah. >> And so if if our response to having been >> And so if if our response to having been >> And so if if our response to having been hurt in the context of church hurt in the context of church hurt in the context of church is to just give up on church, is to just give up on church, is to just give up on church, we might be robbing ourselves of the we might be robbing ourselves of the we might be robbing ourselves of the very thing that we need to heal from our very thing that we need to heal from our very thing that we need to heal from our church.

church. church. >> Oh, I love that. That's and again the >> Oh, I love that. That's and again the >> Oh, I love that. That's and again the family analogy you you handle so well in family analogy you you handle so well in family analogy you you handle so well in this book and in so many of your other this book and in so many of your other this book and in so many of your other works. Speaking of how you want this works. Speaking of how you want this works. Speaking of how you want this book to play out, how do you want book to play out, how do you want book to play out, how do you want Christians to use this book? You've Christians to use this book? You've Christians to use this book? You've alluded earlier to to it it's shorter. alluded earlier to to it it's shorter. alluded earlier to to it it's shorter. Um I mean I'll just say the obvious Um I mean I'll just say the obvious Um I mean I'll just say the obvious here. It's a really good book to share here. It's a really good book to share here. It's a really good book to share with somebody that you're sharing the with somebody that you're sharing the with somebody that you're sharing the gospel with to get them to think about gospel with to get them to think about gospel with to get them to think about things in a different way. Certainly, things in a different way. Certainly, things in a different way. Certainly, it's an easy one to share with anybody it's an easy one to share with anybody it's an easy one to share with anybody that you want that you've maybe even that you want that you've maybe even that you want that you've maybe even made some progress with, but you're made some progress with, but you're made some progress with, but you're trying to get them to take a next step, trying to get them to take a next step, trying to get them to take a next step, not just to talk to you, but to come to not just to talk to you, but to come to not just to talk to you, but to come to church. Um, I think it would also be church. Um, I think it would also be church. Um, I think it would also be great for churches to buy in bulk and to great for churches to buy in bulk and to great for churches to buy in bulk and to study together and to think about, okay, study together and to think about, okay, study together and to think about, okay, how could we talk about this publicly how could we talk about this publicly how could we talk about this publicly and how we make ourselves a very and how we make ourselves a very and how we make ourselves a very hospitable church for those people? I'm hospitable church for those people? I'm hospitable church for those people? I'm going to answer my own question here, going to answer my own question here, going to answer my own question here, Rebecca, but what are some other ways Rebecca, but what are some other ways Rebecca, but what are some other ways you have in mind? Yeah, I was actually you have in mind? Yeah, I was actually you have in mind? Yeah, I was actually super encouraged yesterday. Um, a friend super encouraged yesterday. Um, a friend super encouraged yesterday. Um, a friend of mine texted me who she herself came of mine texted me who she herself came of mine texted me who she herself came back to church after a number of years back to church after a number of years back to church after a number of years of of rebelling pretty hard um, a couple of of rebelling pretty hard um, a couple of of rebelling pretty hard um, a couple of years ago and you most of her friends of years ago and you most of her friends of years ago and you most of her friends are not Christians and not only not are not Christians and not only not are not Christians and not only not Christians but sort of have pretty Christians but sort of have pretty Christians but sort of have pretty strong ideological disagreements with strong ideological disagreements with strong ideological disagreements with with Christianity in various ways. And with Christianity in various ways. And with Christianity in various ways. And one of the things she said was I'd given one of the things she said was I'd given one of the things she said was I'd given her a copy of the book and she said, her a copy of the book and she said, her a copy of the book and she said, "Oh, this is a book I can imagine giving "Oh, this is a book I can imagine giving "Oh, this is a book I can imagine giving to a secular friend of mine when they to a secular friend of mine when they to a secular friend of mine when they hit rock bottom." Now, I'm not saying hit rock bottom." Now, I'm not saying hit rock bottom." Now, I'm not saying that's the only, you know, I'm saying that's the only, you know, I'm saying that's the only, you know, I'm saying sort of wait for people to sort of wait for people to sort of wait for people to >> you've

>> you've >> you've might as well try. might as well try. might as well try. >> Yeah. But I was encouraged that she felt >> Yeah. But I was encouraged that she felt >> Yeah. But I was encouraged that she felt like, you know, this was something that like, you know, this was something that like, you know, this was something that she would um consider doing doing that she would um consider doing doing that she would um consider doing doing that um you know, using in that context. um you know, using in that context. um you know, using in that context. Yeah. I think I mean I any time is a Yeah. I think I mean I any time is a Yeah. I think I mean I any time is a good time to share the gospel with good time to share the gospel with good time to share the gospel with somebody. Um I think at moments of life somebody. Um I think at moments of life somebody. Um I think at moments of life transition um people can be particularly transition um people can be particularly transition um people can be particularly open to just kind of considering open to just kind of considering open to just kind of considering something new. So maybe maybe that's something new. So maybe maybe that's something new. So maybe maybe that's when somebody has hit hit rock bottom when somebody has hit hit rock bottom when somebody has hit hit rock bottom and they realize you know what I need to and they realize you know what I need to and they realize you know what I need to make some major changes in my life make some major changes in my life make some major changes in my life because things are not going well. Or it because things are not going well. Or it because things are not going well. Or it may be um somebody going off to college may be um somebody going off to college may be um somebody going off to college for the first time and thinking, well, I for the first time and thinking, well, I for the first time and thinking, well, I mean, I've I've always been to church, mean, I've I've always been to church, mean, I've I've always been to church, but like I don't know. I don't know that but like I don't know. I don't know that but like I don't know. I don't know that I need a local church while I'm in I need a local church while I'm in I need a local church while I'm in college. Like I'll just come I'll maybe college. Like I'll just come I'll maybe college. Like I'll just come I'll maybe hang out with some Christians in hang out with some Christians in hang out with some Christians in Christian fellowships and I'll like I'll Christian fellowships and I'll like I'll Christian fellowships and I'll like I'll be at church when I come back for the be at church when I come back for the be at church when I come back for the vacations, but like I don't know if I vacations, but like I don't know if I vacations, but like I don't know if I need to prioritize digging into a local need to prioritize digging into a local need to prioritize digging into a local church while I'm there. So maybe church while I'm there. So maybe church while I'm there. So maybe somebody in that s situation or maybe somebody in that s situation or maybe somebody in that s situation or maybe somebody who's got kids and is thinking, somebody who's got kids and is thinking, somebody who's got kids and is thinking, "Oh, I don't know how best to raise "Oh, I don't know how best to raise "Oh, I don't know how best to raise children." Um, and in fact, as I look children." Um, and in fact, as I look children." Um, and in fact, as I look around, I see a generation with the around, I see a generation with the around, I see a generation with the worst sort of mental health basically on worst sort of mental health basically on worst sort of mental health basically on record. Um, you know, I see record. Um, you know, I see record. Um, you know, I see children and and adolescents in children and and adolescents in children and and adolescents in particular um massively struggling with particular um massively struggling with particular um massively struggling with depression and anxiety and um you know, depression and anxiety and um you know, depression and anxiety and um you know, all the the things that are kind of

all the the things that are kind of all the the things that are kind of plaguing our our rising generation at plaguing our our rising generation at plaguing our our rising generation at the moment. Um to say, you know, the the moment. Um to say, you know, the the moment. Um to say, you know, the parents in that situation, hey, um parents in that situation, hey, um parents in that situation, hey, um there's actually a lot of evidence that there's actually a lot of evidence that there's actually a lot of evidence that going to church can be really good for going to church can be really good for going to church can be really good for your kids's mental health. Um want to your kids's mental health. Um want to your kids's mental health. Um want to give that a try? like here's a boat give that a try? like here's a boat give that a try? like here's a boat though give you some of the evidence. So though give you some of the evidence. So though give you some of the evidence. So I think people at various life I think people at various life I think people at various life transition stages and and I I'd want to transition stages and and I I'd want to transition stages and and I I'd want to include as well you know one of the include as well you know one of the include as well you know one of the really sad things that happened after really sad things that happened after really sad things that happened after the co 19 pandemic the co 19 pandemic the co 19 pandemic you know a lot of people were out of you know a lot of people were out of you know a lot of people were out of church for um you know reasons of sort church for um you know reasons of sort church for um you know reasons of sort of health considerations um for a period of health considerations um for a period of health considerations um for a period of time and then some people came back of time and then some people came back of time and then some people came back and other people didn't and one of the and other people didn't and one of the and other people didn't and one of the saddest realities is that a lot of the saddest realities is that a lot of the saddest realities is that a lot of the people who didn't were actually people who didn't were actually people who didn't were actually retirement age people. retirement age people. retirement age people. There are there are hundreds of There are there are hundreds of There are there are hundreds of thousands thousands thousands >> of people who have perhaps even been to >> of people who have perhaps even been to >> of people who have perhaps even been to church all their lives who are now church all their lives who are now church all their lives who are now thinking, you know what, I'll just I'll thinking, you know what, I'll just I'll thinking, you know what, I'll just I'll watch online or I'll listen to some watch online or I'll listen to some watch online or I'll listen to some worship songs and kind of I don't I worship songs and kind of I don't I worship songs and kind of I don't I don't need church and church doesn't don't need church and church doesn't don't need church and church doesn't need me.

need me. need me. >> And neither of those things are true. >> And neither of those things are true. >> And neither of those things are true. >> Is that why now millennials and Gen Z >> Is that why now millennials and Gen Z >> Is that why now millennials and Gen Z are the two most populous groups are the two most populous groups are the two most populous groups attending church? Or is that just attending church? Or is that just attending church? Or is that just because those are the younger people and because those are the younger people and because those are the younger people and it's just kind of gener generational it's just kind of gener generational it's just kind of gener generational replacement? Do you have any idea? replacement? Do you have any idea? replacement? Do you have any idea? >> Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's >> Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's >> Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's probably a little bit of both. And um probably a little bit of both. And um probably a little bit of both. And um yeah, we the church we're part of trends yeah, we the church we're part of trends yeah, we the church we're part of trends young like we we have some people oldest young like we we have some people oldest young like we we have some people oldest member is 92, but there's a pretty member is 92, but there's a pretty member is 92, but there's a pretty pretty large gap between her and the pretty large gap between her and the pretty large gap between her and the second oldest oldest member. And um we second oldest oldest member. And um we second oldest oldest member. And um we push the average up too much, push the average up too much, push the average up too much, >> right? Yeah. I I think a lot of the >> right? Yeah. I I think a lot of the >> right? Yeah. I I think a lot of the influx at the moment is of younger influx at the moment is of younger influx at the moment is of younger people. Um, we had last Sunday other people. Um, we had last Sunday other people. Um, we had last Sunday other than that this past Easter was our than that this past Easter was our than that this past Easter was our largest service attendance on record. largest service attendance on record. largest service attendance on record. It's absolutely like you know basically It's absolutely like you know basically It's absolutely like you know basically standing room only in our little standing room only in our little standing room only in our little Southern Baptist church in Cambridge, Southern Baptist church in Cambridge, Southern Baptist church in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Um, so yeah, I think Massachusetts. Um, so yeah, I think Massachusetts. Um, so yeah, I think there there is an influx of of younger there there is an influx of of younger there there is an influx of of younger people. Um, but I think that there is people. Um, but I think that there is people. Um, but I think that there is massive evangelistic opportunity among massive evangelistic opportunity among massive evangelistic opportunity among older people as well and we mustn't lose older people as well and we mustn't lose older people as well and we mustn't lose sight of that. And if you are, you know, sight of that. And if you are, you know, sight of that. And if you are, you know, if if you're a Christian who's if if you're a Christian who's if if you're a Christian who's retirement age or or beyond, now is not retirement age or or beyond, now is not retirement age or or beyond, now is not the time to put your feet up, um now is the time to put your feet up, um now is the time to put your feet up, um now is the time to knock on your neighbor's the time to knock on your neighbor's the time to knock on your neighbor's doors, to invite them in, to see if you doors, to invite them in, to see if you doors, to invite them in, to see if you can help with their kids, to see if you can help with their kids, to see if you can help with their kids, to see if you can um welcome those who are are lonely, can um welcome those who are are lonely, can um welcome those who are are lonely, to see if you can invite people to to see if you can invite people to to see if you can invite people to church. Um, there is a huge gospel church. Um, there is a huge gospel church. Um, there is a huge gospel opportunity right around you now and you

opportunity right around you now and you opportunity right around you now and you are on Jesus's team to get out there and are on Jesus's team to get out there and are on Jesus's team to get out there and do that with the years that you have do that with the years that you have do that with the years that you have remaining. I'm a I'm a huge believer in remaining. I'm a I'm a huge believer in remaining. I'm a I'm a huge believer in us never kind of retiring out of the the us never kind of retiring out of the the us never kind of retiring out of the the basic duties and joys of the Christian basic duties and joys of the Christian basic duties and joys of the Christian faith faith faith >> and you never retire from church. Your >> and you never retire from church. Your >> and you never retire from church. Your gifts may change, your position may gifts may change, your position may gifts may change, your position may change, your circumstance may change, change, your circumstance may change, change, your circumstance may change, your opportunities to give and to your opportunities to give and to your opportunities to give and to receive may change. Yeah. receive may change. Yeah. receive may change. Yeah. >> But your necessity, 1 Corinthians 12, >> But your necessity, 1 Corinthians 12, >> But your necessity, 1 Corinthians 12, your necessity as part member of the your necessity as part member of the your necessity as part member of the body of Christ, that never changes. And body of Christ, that never changes. And body of Christ, that never changes. And it's never there's never um never too it's never there's never um never too it's never there's never um never too many people many people many people >> in the body of Christ. There's always a >> in the body of Christ. There's always a >> in the body of Christ. There's always a place for somebody and there's never place for somebody and there's never place for somebody and there's never it's never too crowded. it's never too crowded. it's never too crowded. >> Yes. Beautiful. I I write in the book >> Yes. Beautiful. I I write in the book >> Yes. Beautiful. I I write in the book about um Dorothy, our 92-year-old member about um Dorothy, our 92-year-old member about um Dorothy, our 92-year-old member um who came originally from Jamaica, had um who came originally from Jamaica, had um who came originally from Jamaica, had eight children um and age 92 still walks eight children um and age 92 still walks eight children um and age 92 still walks to church. Um but now she has we have a to church. Um but now she has we have a to church. Um but now she has we have a sort of rotation of people who walk with sort of rotation of people who walk with sort of rotation of people who walk with her to church um or give her a ride if her to church um or give her a ride if her to church um or give her a ride if she's having a kind of particularly she's having a kind of particularly she's having a kind of particularly rough day health-wise, but um she shows rough day health-wise, but um she shows rough day health-wise, but um she shows up. She is by far the best dressed up. She is by far the best dressed up. She is by far the best dressed person at our church on a regular basis.

person at our church on a regular basis. person at our church on a regular basis. She looks incredible. Um, and I I hope She looks incredible. Um, and I I hope She looks incredible. Um, and I I hope to be uh like Miss Dorothy one day after to be uh like Miss Dorothy one day after to be uh like Miss Dorothy one day after the Lord spares me. the Lord spares me. the Lord spares me. >> I love that. Our guest here, Rebecca >> I love that. Our guest here, Rebecca >> I love that. Our guest here, Rebecca Mccclaclin, How Church Could Literally Mccclaclin, How Church Could Literally Mccclaclin, How Church Could Literally Save Your Life, new book from Crossway Save Your Life, new book from Crossway Save Your Life, new book from Crossway and the Gospel Coalition. Rebecca, and the Gospel Coalition. Rebecca, and the Gospel Coalition. Rebecca, thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.