How Your Investing Could Change the World (with Robin John) [Gospelbound - Ep. 177]

And I I really do believe that when And I I really do believe that when Christians discover a God-given purpose Christians discover a God-given purpose Christians discover a God-given purpose in everyday work, it leads to such a in everyday work, it leads to such a in everyday work, it leads to such a joyful existence, joyful work. Uh but joyful existence, joyful work. Uh but joyful existence, joyful work. Uh but also not just joy for us, but joy for also not just joy for us, but joy for also not just joy for us, but joy for others. [music] Do any of us really want to be in the Do any of us really want to be in the position where [music] our retirement position where [music] our retirement position where [music] our retirement account grows in sync with the cancer account grows in sync with the cancer account grows in sync with the cancer ward? That's the question posed by Robin ward? That's the question posed by Robin ward? That's the question posed by Robin John about tobacco responsible for 100 John about tobacco responsible for 100 John about tobacco responsible for 100 million deaths in the last 100 years. million deaths in the last 100 years. million deaths in the last 100 years. Naturally, all of us would say no. We Naturally, all of us would say no. We Naturally, all of us would say no. We don't want to benefit from other people don't want to benefit from other people don't want to benefit from other people dying. Yet, as Robin John points out in dying. Yet, as Robin John points out in dying. Yet, as Robin John points out in his new book, The Good Investor: How his new book, The Good Investor: How his new book, The Good Investor: How Your Work Can Confront Injustice, Love Your Work Can Confront Injustice, Love Your Work Can Confront Injustice, Love Your Neighbor, and Bring Healing to the Your Neighbor, and Bring Healing to the Your Neighbor, and Bring Healing to the World, many of us do hold mutual funds World, many of us do hold mutual funds World, many of us do hold mutual funds that invest in tobacco companies. We that invest in tobacco companies. We that invest in tobacco companies. We just don't know it. Come to think of it, just don't know it. Come to think of it, just don't know it. Come to think of it, how much do we know about any of our how much do we know about any of our how much do we know about any of our investments, especially in long-term investments, especially in long-term investments, especially in long-term retirement accounts? Well, Robin John is retirement accounts? Well, Robin John is retirement accounts? Well, Robin John is the co-founder and CEO of Even Tide, an the co-founder and CEO of Even Tide, an the co-founder and CEO of Even Tide, an asset management firm dedicated to asset management firm dedicated to asset management firm dedicated to honoring God and investing in companies honoring God and investing in companies honoring God and investing in companies that create compelling value for the that create compelling value for the that create compelling value for the common good. His vision for Even Tide's common good. His vision for Even Tide's common good. His vision for Even Tide's values-based investing, shows how our values-based investing, shows how our values-based investing, shows how our work can benefit everyone and not just work can benefit everyone and not just work can benefit everyone and not just bolster the bottom line for a fortunate bolster the bottom line for a fortunate bolster the bottom line for a fortunate few. And I'd go so far as to say our few. And I'd go so far as to say our few. And I'd go so far as to say our world can be a much better place if

world can be a much better place if world can be a much better place if investors and employees of all kinds investors and employees of all kinds investors and employees of all kinds will learn from his example and will learn from his example and will learn from his example and prioritize what really matters now and prioritize what really matters now and prioritize what really matters now and in eternity. Robin's personal story in eternity. Robin's personal story in eternity. Robin's personal story illustrates the power and potential of illustrates the power and potential of illustrates the power and potential of economic uplift. And that's where I'd economic uplift. And that's where I'd economic uplift. And that's where I'd like to start now. Robin, thank you for like to start now. Robin, thank you for like to start now. Robin, thank you for joining me on Gospelbound. joining me on Gospelbound. joining me on Gospelbound. >> Thank you so much, Col. And I am so >> Thank you so much, Col. And I am so >> Thank you so much, Col. And I am so blessed to be here with you. Thank you. blessed to be here with you. Thank you. blessed to be here with you. Thank you. Now, this is an interesting way to Now, this is an interesting way to Now, this is an interesting way to describe and to start the book, but why describe and to start the book, but why describe and to start the book, but why do you say this is a book about joy? do you say this is a book about joy? do you say this is a book about joy? >> Yeah, you know, uh the the book is a >> Yeah, you know, uh the the book is a >> Yeah, you know, uh the the book is a book that is about purpose ultimately. book that is about purpose ultimately. book that is about purpose ultimately. And I I really do believe that when And I I really do believe that when And I I really do believe that when Christians discover a God-given purpose Christians discover a God-given purpose Christians discover a God-given purpose in everyday work, it leads to such a in everyday work, it leads to such a in everyday work, it leads to such a joyful existence, joyful work, uh but joyful existence, joyful work, uh but joyful existence, joyful work, uh but also not just joy for us but joy for also not just joy for us but joy for also not just joy for us but joy for others. Uh the tagline at even tide is others. Uh the tagline at even tide is others. Uh the tagline at even tide is investing that makes the world rejoice. investing that makes the world rejoice. investing that makes the world rejoice. It comes from the Bible verse that says, It comes from the Bible verse that says, It comes from the Bible verse that says, "When the righteous prosper, the city "When the righteous prosper, the city "When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices. But when the wicked prosper, rejoices. But when the wicked prosper, rejoices. But when the wicked prosper, the people groan." So I do believe that the people groan." So I do believe that the people groan." So I do believe that as God's people, as Christians are as God's people, as Christians are as God's people, as Christians are prospering, that there will be joy not prospering, that there will be joy not prospering, that there will be joy not just for us, but for the world.

just for us, but for the world. just for us, but for the world. >> I love that perspective. Really >> I love that perspective. Really >> I love that perspective. Really appreciate that. Now Robin, you were appreciate that. Now Robin, you were appreciate that. Now Robin, you were born in a small village in Carerala, born in a small village in Carerala, born in a small village in Carerala, India. Immigrated to the United States India. Immigrated to the United States India. Immigrated to the United States when you were 8 years old. family when you were 8 years old. family when you were 8 years old. family settled in Boston. You talk a lot about settled in Boston. You talk a lot about settled in Boston. You talk a lot about this in the book. What do you remember this in the book. What do you remember this in the book. What do you remember most about that move? most about that move? most about that move? >> Yeah. So, first of all, the first eight >> Yeah. So, first of all, the first eight >> Yeah. So, first of all, the first eight years of my life uh almost feels like a years of my life uh almost feels like a years of my life uh almost feels like a dream that I saw. Uh you know, I feel dream that I saw. Uh you know, I feel dream that I saw. Uh you know, I feel like my memories are more more vivid like my memories are more more vivid like my memories are more more vivid after moving to the US and uh but I do after moving to the US and uh but I do after moving to the US and uh but I do remember vividly my uh my trip to the remember vividly my uh my trip to the remember vividly my uh my trip to the US. You know, I growing up in a small US. You know, I growing up in a small US. You know, I growing up in a small village in India, I maybe saw an village in India, I maybe saw an village in India, I maybe saw an airplane once as a kid, uh, just flying airplane once as a kid, uh, just flying airplane once as a kid, uh, just flying over the village and then to get inside over the village and then to get inside over the village and then to get inside of one of those airplanes and then land of one of those airplanes and then land of one of those airplanes and then land in the JFK airport in New York City. Uh, in the JFK airport in New York City. Uh, in the JFK airport in New York City. Uh, imagine growing up in a place where imagine growing up in a place where imagine growing up in a place where every house is maybe, I don't know, 500 every house is maybe, I don't know, 500 every house is maybe, I don't know, 500 square ft. uh to coming to JFK airport square ft. uh to coming to JFK airport square ft. uh to coming to JFK airport and seeing the s the skyscrapers and the and seeing the s the skyscrapers and the and seeing the s the skyscrapers and the seeing the lights. It was incredible. I seeing the lights. It was incredible. I seeing the lights. It was incredible. I had never imagined uh leaving India as a had never imagined uh leaving India as a had never imagined uh leaving India as a child you like I had no clue where I was child you like I had no clue where I was child you like I had no clue where I was going and now to enter into America into going and now to enter into America into going and now to enter into America into New York City was just an incredible New York City was just an incredible New York City was just an incredible experience for me. I can only imagine experience for me. I can only imagine experience for me. I can only imagine what that would be like. And I love your what that would be like. And I love your what that would be like. And I love your reflections on some of the differences, reflections on some of the differences, reflections on some of the differences, some of the changes, those uh that that some of the changes, those uh that that some of the changes, those uh that that trip in the book. Um, interesting in trip in the book. Um, interesting in trip in the book. Um, interesting in your book, it's it's not about the

your book, it's it's not about the your book, it's it's not about the superiority at all, the United States. superiority at all, the United States. superiority at all, the United States. You synthesize where you live with uh You synthesize where you live with uh You synthesize where you live with uh where you live now in Boston with where where you live now in Boston with where where you live now in Boston with where you were born. And and I loved what you you were born. And and I loved what you you were born. And and I loved what you wrote here about Carerala. said, "One of wrote here about Carerala. said, "One of wrote here about Carerala. said, "One of the gifts that has shaped me the most is the gifts that has shaped me the most is the gifts that has shaped me the most is this mutual responsibility woven into this mutual responsibility woven into this mutual responsibility woven into who we were to guard family cohesion and who we were to guard family cohesion and who we were to guard family cohesion and to nurture healthy communities. We need to nurture healthy communities. We need to nurture healthy communities. We need more of this here now. We need to push more of this here now. We need to push more of this here now. We need to push against our excessive individualism and against our excessive individualism and against our excessive individualism and take responsibility to protect the most take responsibility to protect the most take responsibility to protect the most vulnerable among us, our children." vulnerable among us, our children." vulnerable among us, our children." It made me think, Robin, do we It made me think, Robin, do we It made me think, Robin, do we underestimate how much American values underestimate how much American values underestimate how much American values and even capitalism itself erode our and even capitalism itself erode our and even capitalism itself erode our families and harm our children? families and harm our children? families and harm our children? >> Yeah. You know, I think uh sometimes >> Yeah. You know, I think uh sometimes >> Yeah. You know, I think uh sometimes when we are living within a framework, when we are living within a framework, when we are living within a framework, it's very easy to uh assume that that it's very easy to uh assume that that it's very easy to uh assume that that framework is okay and that that's just framework is okay and that that's just framework is okay and that that's just how things are. uh and it's not just an how things are. uh and it's not just an how things are. uh and it's not just an India versus US uh you know being from India versus US uh you know being from India versus US uh you know being from India I purposely use that as an example India I purposely use that as an example India I purposely use that as an example uh you know I compare and contrast a lot uh you know I compare and contrast a lot uh you know I compare and contrast a lot in the book uh but you know even this in the book uh but you know even this in the book uh but you know even this week I was walking in New York City and week I was walking in New York City and week I was walking in New York City and you know I had a sweatshirt and my first you know I had a sweatshirt and my first you know I had a sweatshirt and my first cousins were asking me Robin how come cousins were asking me Robin how come cousins were asking me Robin how come you don't have a jacket I'm like well I you don't have a jacket I'm like well I you don't have a jacket I'm like well I never wear a jacket I I enjoy just never wear a jacket I I enjoy just never wear a jacket I I enjoy just wearing a sweatshirt but it was actually wearing a sweatshirt but it was actually wearing a sweatshirt but it was actually freezing and I was walking to my hotel.

freezing and I was walking to my hotel. freezing and I was walking to my hotel. I wanted to walk late night. It was like I wanted to walk late night. It was like I wanted to walk late night. It was like a twomile walk. And I saw homeless a twomile walk. And I saw homeless a twomile walk. And I saw homeless people along the way. And you know, I people along the way. And you know, I people along the way. And you know, I would stop in little stores just to heat would stop in little stores just to heat would stop in little stores just to heat up and then keep walking. I couldn't up and then keep walking. I couldn't up and then keep walking. I couldn't believe that there were people sleeping believe that there were people sleeping believe that there were people sleeping on the sidewalks in America and people on the sidewalks in America and people on the sidewalks in America and people are just walking by them, including are just walking by them, including are just walking by them, including myself. I think often times we feel myself. I think often times we feel myself. I think often times we feel maybe maybe overwhelmed. uh maybe we maybe maybe overwhelmed. uh maybe we maybe maybe overwhelmed. uh maybe we don't think that there's anything that don't think that there's anything that don't think that there's anything that we could do to help others, but I think we could do to help others, but I think we could do to help others, but I think there's a bigger issue. I think when we there's a bigger issue. I think when we there's a bigger issue. I think when we see things, we just assume that's the see things, we just assume that's the see things, we just assume that's the way things are and we could become way things are and we could become way things are and we could become desensitized to it. And uh and you know, desensitized to it. And uh and you know, desensitized to it. And uh and you know, I I can't imagine ever seeing my own I I can't imagine ever seeing my own I I can't imagine ever seeing my own father or mother or children lying on father or mother or children lying on father or mother or children lying on the side of a street like that uh when the side of a street like that uh when the side of a street like that uh when when it's like 15 degrees outside. Um when it's like 15 degrees outside. Um when it's like 15 degrees outside. Um but that that is the state of many but that that is the state of many but that that is the state of many people even here in America. So I you people even here in America. So I you people even here in America. So I you know I think in the book I am know I think in the book I am know I think in the book I am challenging us to think more biblically challenging us to think more biblically challenging us to think more biblically and not conform so much to the patterns and not conform so much to the patterns and not conform so much to the patterns of our world around us.

of our world around us. of our world around us. >> Yeah. I often say when I'm teaching on >> Yeah. I often say when I'm teaching on >> Yeah. I often say when I'm teaching on cultural apologetics or just helping cultural apologetics or just helping cultural apologetics or just helping people to understand uh cultural people to understand uh cultural people to understand uh cultural dynamics at all. It's the elements that dynamics at all. It's the elements that dynamics at all. It's the elements that are the most the elements that are the are the most the elements that are the are the most the elements that are the most powerful though the ones that we most powerful though the ones that we most powerful though the ones that we don't think about the ones that we don't don't think about the ones that we don't don't think about the ones that we don't notice. They're the the things that you notice. They're the the things that you notice. They're the the things that you walk past every day and you don't even walk past every day and you don't even walk past every day and you don't even register them as being odd or abnormal register them as being odd or abnormal register them as being odd or abnormal or difficult or maybe even don't even or difficult or maybe even don't even or difficult or maybe even don't even imagine a world where it could be could imagine a world where it could be could imagine a world where it could be could be different. um when you when you what be different. um when you when you what be different. um when you when you what work later on took you back to India and work later on took you back to India and work later on took you back to India and I think this was probably the most I think this was probably the most I think this was probably the most memorable part of the book for me and it memorable part of the book for me and it memorable part of the book for me and it came in what you learned from that came in what you learned from that came in what you learned from that return trip. I'd love if you could just return trip. I'd love if you could just return trip. I'd love if you could just share that story uh with us here again. share that story uh with us here again. share that story uh with us here again. Yeah, you know, I uh was working for a Yeah, you know, I uh was working for a Yeah, you know, I uh was working for a large custody bank and they were large custody bank and they were large custody bank and they were outsourcing to India and they asked me outsourcing to India and they asked me outsourcing to India and they asked me whether I would help uh with their whether I would help uh with their whether I would help uh with their outsourcing project and so I moved from outsourcing project and so I moved from outsourcing project and so I moved from uh Boston to a place called Pune, India uh Boston to a place called Pune, India uh Boston to a place called Pune, India which is near Mumbai, Bombay and you which is near Mumbai, Bombay and you which is near Mumbai, Bombay and you know I'm living there uh you know the know I'm living there uh you know the know I'm living there uh you know the company took you know good care of me uh company took you know good care of me uh company took you know good care of me uh you know I would fly first class and I you know I would fly first class and I you know I would fly first class and I would stay in nice hotels and then would stay in nice hotels and then would stay in nice hotels and then eventually moved into a guest house and eventually moved into a guest house and eventually moved into a guest house and that whole experience shaped me. I'm that whole experience shaped me. I'm that whole experience shaped me. I'm only 24 years old at the time and uh only 24 years old at the time and uh only 24 years old at the time and uh there was a cook and a housekeeper uh in there was a cook and a housekeeper uh in there was a cook and a housekeeper uh in the guest house and their names were the guest house and their names were the guest house and their names were Amal and Kamill and they would take care

Amal and Kamill and they would take care Amal and Kamill and they would take care of me every day. In the mornings they of me every day. In the mornings they of me every day. In the mornings they would uh make my breakfast. They would would uh make my breakfast. They would would uh make my breakfast. They would iron my clothes before I went to work. iron my clothes before I went to work. iron my clothes before I went to work. Uh they had dinner waiting for me when Uh they had dinner waiting for me when Uh they had dinner waiting for me when you know when I got home. They would do you know when I got home. They would do you know when I got home. They would do all my laundry, everything. And uh one all my laundry, everything. And uh one all my laundry, everything. And uh one day I'm standing in the kitchen uh day I'm standing in the kitchen uh day I'm standing in the kitchen uh watching them as they prepare dinner for watching them as they prepare dinner for watching them as they prepare dinner for me. And behind the kitchen I saw a me. And behind the kitchen I saw a me. And behind the kitchen I saw a pantry and I and it looked like a prayer pantry and I and it looked like a prayer pantry and I and it looked like a prayer mat. I just thought to myself, are they mat. I just thought to myself, are they mat. I just thought to myself, are they sleeping back there? So I asked Aml and sleeping back there? So I asked Aml and sleeping back there? So I asked Aml and Kamill, do you guys sleep back there? Kamill, do you guys sleep back there? Kamill, do you guys sleep back there? They said, yes, sir, we sleep here. I They said, yes, sir, we sleep here. I They said, yes, sir, we sleep here. I said, well, I want you to take a bed. said, well, I want you to take a bed. said, well, I want you to take a bed. They said, "No, sir. We're not allowed." They said, "No, sir. We're not allowed." They said, "No, sir. We're not allowed." I said, 'Why not?' They said, "We're not I said, 'Why not?' They said, "We're not I said, 'Why not?' They said, "We're not allowed." So, I sent an email to allowed." So, I sent an email to allowed." So, I sent an email to management in America. I said, "Please management in America. I said, "Please management in America. I said, "Please give Amal and Kmel a bed." And the give Amal and Kmel a bed." And the give Amal and Kmel a bed." And the response I got was, "We're not response I got was, "We're not response I got was, "We're not responsible for Amal and Kummel. We responsible for Amal and Kummel. We responsible for Amal and Kummel. We outsource a guest house to a local guest outsource a guest house to a local guest outsource a guest house to a local guest house vendor in Pune, India. And they're house vendor in Pune, India. And they're house vendor in Pune, India. And they're responsible for their people." And I responsible for their people." And I responsible for their people." And I wrote back to my management and I said wrote back to my management and I said wrote back to my management and I said please if you just uh ask the you know please if you just uh ask the you know please if you just uh ask the you know we are a large custody bank from America we are a large custody bank from America we are a large custody bank from America the small guest house vendor in India the small guest house vendor in India the small guest house vendor in India will easily listen and make the change.

will easily listen and make the change. will easily listen and make the change. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And my management decided that it was >> And my management decided that it was >> And my management decided that it was not our responsibility. A few days later not our responsibility. A few days later not our responsibility. A few days later I'm sitting in the living room and I see I'm sitting in the living room and I see I'm sitting in the living room and I see KML walking in through the front door. I KML walking in through the front door. I KML walking in through the front door. I see one of my American colleagues see one of my American colleagues see one of my American colleagues walking out through the front door. And walking out through the front door. And walking out through the front door. And my American colleague said to Kmel, my American colleague said to Kmel, my American colleague said to Kmel, "Servants shouldn't use the front door." "Servants shouldn't use the front door." "Servants shouldn't use the front door." Uh that really bothered me. Uh and KML Uh that really bothered me. Uh and KML Uh that really bothered me. Uh and KML walked in and Kamill looked at me and walked in and Kamill looked at me and walked in and Kamill looked at me and said, "Sir, I am a human being too." Uh said, "Sir, I am a human being too." Uh said, "Sir, I am a human being too." Uh you know, I really felt hurt when I you know, I really felt hurt when I you know, I really felt hurt when I heard those words. heard those words. heard those words. uh you know uh really the the questions uh you know uh really the the questions uh you know uh really the the questions that started coming in my mind were that started coming in my mind were that started coming in my mind were questions like what am I doing here? questions like what am I doing here? questions like what am I doing here? What is the purpose of my work? Am I What is the purpose of my work? Am I What is the purpose of my work? Am I working just to make rich people richer? working just to make rich people richer? working just to make rich people richer? Am I working just to make myself richer Am I working just to make myself richer Am I working just to make myself richer or is there a way for me to use my life or is there a way for me to use my life or is there a way for me to use my life to serve the animals and comels of the to serve the animals and comels of the to serve the animals and comels of the world? Uh so I think as Christians we world? Uh so I think as Christians we world? Uh so I think as Christians we should all be asking ourselves what are should all be asking ourselves what are should all be asking ourselves what are we doing in our everyday work? Uh is our we doing in our everyday work? Uh is our we doing in our everyday work? Uh is our work honoring to God? Is our work work honoring to God? Is our work work honoring to God? Is our work uplifting society? Is our work loving uplifting society? Is our work loving uplifting society? Is our work loving our neighbors? If we ask these types of our neighbors? If we ask these types of our neighbors? If we ask these types of work questions about our everyday work, work questions about our everyday work, work questions about our everyday work, I do believe that we could uh really be I do believe that we could uh really be I do believe that we could uh really be doing work that uh uplifts society while doing work that uh uplifts society while doing work that uh uplifts society while taking care of the needs of our family.

taking care of the needs of our family. taking care of the needs of our family. Oh, that's really I mean it's a very Oh, that's really I mean it's a very Oh, that's really I mean it's a very moving story again just to be able to moving story again just to be able to moving story again just to be able to hear it again and to see that connection hear it again and to see that connection hear it again and to see that connection with the work that you're you're doing with the work that you're you're doing with the work that you're you're doing today today today with business Rob and I often hear a lot with business Rob and I often hear a lot with business Rob and I often hear a lot about the freedom to make a lot of money about the freedom to make a lot of money about the freedom to make a lot of money and just like you described they're less and just like you described they're less and just like you described they're less about the freedom to be able to do good about the freedom to be able to do good about the freedom to be able to do good be able to pursue pursue the virtuous be able to pursue pursue the virtuous be able to pursue pursue the virtuous and you write in the book quote business and you write in the book quote business and you write in the book quote business leaders who risk the lives and leaders who risk the lives and leaders who risk the lives and well-being of others in the pursuit of well-being of others in the pursuit of well-being of others in the pursuit of profit are often rewarded with big profit are often rewarded with big profit are often rewarded with big offices and a promotion. This is the offices and a promotion. This is the offices and a promotion. This is the leadership ethos I want to resist. Well, leadership ethos I want to resist. Well, leadership ethos I want to resist. Well, for the rest of us, Robin, what's the for the rest of us, Robin, what's the for the rest of us, Robin, what's the best way we can resist with with you? best way we can resist with with you? best way we can resist with with you? >> You know, um more than 50% of uh the the >> You know, um more than 50% of uh the the >> You know, um more than 50% of uh the the money invested in the stock market are money invested in the stock market are money invested in the stock market are being stewarded by church attending being stewarded by church attending being stewarded by church attending Christians. Christians. Christians. uh and that's trillions and trillions of uh and that's trillions and trillions of uh and that's trillions and trillions of dollars. And so we as Christians have a dollars. And so we as Christians have a dollars. And so we as Christians have a huge opportunity to impact the world by huge opportunity to impact the world by huge opportunity to impact the world by simply allocating dollars into the simply allocating dollars into the simply allocating dollars into the places that are promoting human places that are promoting human places that are promoting human flourishing and away from the places flourishing and away from the places flourishing and away from the places that are promoting harm in the world. So that are promoting harm in the world. So that are promoting harm in the world. So Christians don't understand it, but most Christians don't understand it, but most Christians don't understand it, but most of us it's through our 401k plans. It's of us it's through our 401k plans. It's of us it's through our 401k plans. It's through our IAS. Uh many of us have through our IAS. Uh many of us have through our IAS. Uh many of us have financial advisors that don't share our financial advisors that don't share our financial advisors that don't share our values. So if we look at what we're values. So if we look at what we're values. So if we look at what we're actually investing in, you're going to

actually investing in, you're going to actually investing in, you're going to find things like pornography, tobacco, find things like pornography, tobacco, find things like pornography, tobacco, um abortion, uh violent video gaming, um abortion, uh violent video gaming, um abortion, uh violent video gaming, gambling, online gambling is becoming a gambling, online gambling is becoming a gambling, online gambling is becoming a huge issue. publicly traded companies huge issue. publicly traded companies huge issue. publicly traded companies like FanDuel, uh, DraftKings, Caesar like FanDuel, uh, DraftKings, Caesar like FanDuel, uh, DraftKings, Caesar Sports Bet, uh, even Disney owns ESPN Sports Bet, uh, even Disney owns ESPN Sports Bet, uh, even Disney owns ESPN Bet. Uh, the question is, do we want So, Bet. Uh, the question is, do we want So, Bet. Uh, the question is, do we want So, one thing I want to say is that when one thing I want to say is that when one thing I want to say is that when we're investing in a company, we are we're investing in a company, we are we're investing in a company, we are sharing in the profits of the company. sharing in the profits of the company. sharing in the profits of the company. The Bible talks about ill-gotten gain. The Bible talks about ill-gotten gain. The Bible talks about ill-gotten gain. Uh, Proverbs 1 is an example. It says Uh, Proverbs 1 is an example. It says Uh, Proverbs 1 is an example. It says not to share a purse with people that not to share a purse with people that not to share a purse with people that are plundering. So we as Christians are plundering. So we as Christians are plundering. So we as Christians should seek to avoid illotten gain. should seek to avoid illotten gain. should seek to avoid illotten gain. Proverbs 16:8 says, "Better is a little Proverbs 16:8 says, "Better is a little Proverbs 16:8 says, "Better is a little bit with righteousness than great bit with righteousness than great bit with righteousness than great revenues with injustice." So we should revenues with injustice." So we should revenues with injustice." So we should seek to avoid illotten gain. Uh but more seek to avoid illotten gain. Uh but more seek to avoid illotten gain. Uh but more than that, when we're investing in a than that, when we're investing in a than that, when we're investing in a company, we should be investing in the company, we should be investing in the company, we should be investing in the things that we want to root for in the things that we want to root for in the things that we want to root for in the world. Every single time when we look at world. Every single time when we look at world. Every single time when we look at our statements, we're not our investment our statements, we're not our investment our statements, we're not our investment statements. We're not hoping that the statements. We're not hoping that the statements. We're not hoping that the value of the our portfolio is getting value of the our portfolio is getting value of the our portfolio is getting smaller. We're hoping that the value of smaller. We're hoping that the value of smaller. We're hoping that the value of our portfolio is getting bigger. Uh that our portfolio is getting bigger. Uh that our portfolio is getting bigger. Uh that means we're rooting if there's tobacco, means we're rooting if there's tobacco, means we're rooting if there's tobacco, if there's abortion, if there is if there's abortion, if there is if there's abortion, if there is pornography in our portfolio, that means pornography in our portfolio, that means pornography in our portfolio, that means we're rooting for these things to be we're rooting for these things to be we're rooting for these things to be selling and and growing in the world.

selling and and growing in the world. selling and and growing in the world. We're rooting for more profits in We're rooting for more profits in We're rooting for more profits in tobacco, more profits in abortion so tobacco, more profits in abortion so tobacco, more profits in abortion so that we could share in those profits as that we could share in those profits as that we could share in those profits as Christians. So one big question I would Christians. So one big question I would Christians. So one big question I would ask everybody is what are we rooting ask everybody is what are we rooting ask everybody is what are we rooting for? And we should align our capital for? And we should align our capital for? And we should align our capital with the things that we want to root for with the things that we want to root for with the things that we want to root for so that what we're rooting for in the so that what we're rooting for in the so that what we're rooting for in the world is aligned with how we want to world is aligned with how we want to world is aligned with how we want to prosper in the world. prosper in the world. prosper in the world. >> Oh that's it's very compelling and I >> Oh that's it's very compelling and I >> Oh that's it's very compelling and I think illustrative in a way that I know think illustrative in a way that I know think illustrative in a way that I know I hadn't really thought about before I hadn't really thought about before I hadn't really thought about before with that who are you rooting to succeed with that who are you rooting to succeed with that who are you rooting to succeed so that you'll succeed with them. So, so that you'll succeed with them. So, so that you'll succeed with them. So, it's not just avoiding the bad, but also it's not just avoiding the bad, but also it's not just avoiding the bad, but also promoting uh the good. Um, when you and promoting uh the good. Um, when you and promoting uh the good. Um, when you and you mentioned a lot of the different you mentioned a lot of the different you mentioned a lot of the different things that you guys avoid in profits things that you guys avoid in profits things that you guys avoid in profits and investing, how do you go about that and investing, how do you go about that and investing, how do you go about that discernment process to decide what's bad discernment process to decide what's bad discernment process to decide what's bad and what's acceptable for investing? and what's acceptable for investing? and what's acceptable for investing? Right. You've mentioned uh tobacco, Right. You've mentioned uh tobacco, Right. You've mentioned uh tobacco, pornography, gambling is one that even pornography, gambling is one that even pornography, gambling is one that even even since you wrote the book has even since you wrote the book has even since you wrote the book has changed a lot, really increased a lot changed a lot, really increased a lot changed a lot, really increased a lot and expanded um in number of different and expanded um in number of different and expanded um in number of different ways. You mentioning ESPN right there.

ways. You mentioning ESPN right there. ways. You mentioning ESPN right there. Um but I wonder about other things that Um but I wonder about other things that Um but I wonder about other things that are not having um necessarily positive are not having um necessarily positive are not having um necessarily positive effects or are having some kind of effects or are having some kind of effects or are having some kind of negative effects whether it's an you negative effects whether it's an you negative effects whether it's an you know an aggra business that continue know an aggra business that continue know an aggra business that continue that contributes to obesity or tech that contributes to obesity or tech that contributes to obesity or tech companies using coerced labor or or even companies using coerced labor or or even companies using coerced labor or or even just addicting us to phones or making it just addicting us to phones or making it just addicting us to phones or making it easier for us to view illicit content. easier for us to view illicit content. easier for us to view illicit content. Where do you choose where you're Where do you choose where you're Where do you choose where you're supposed to draw the line there? Um supposed to draw the line there? Um supposed to draw the line there? Um there is a lot of work uh in discerning there is a lot of work uh in discerning there is a lot of work uh in discerning and uh you know every single person and uh you know every single person and uh you know every single person person every Christian should uh be person every Christian should uh be person every Christian should uh be asking themselves asking themselves asking themselves uh this question regarding biblical uh this question regarding biblical uh this question regarding biblical values and exactly how to interpret values and exactly how to interpret values and exactly how to interpret biblical uh scripture uh in our everyday biblical uh scripture uh in our everyday biblical uh scripture uh in our everyday life and I don't think every single life and I don't think every single life and I don't think every single person will end up in the same place. Uh person will end up in the same place. Uh person will end up in the same place. Uh my uh request is that everybody at least my uh request is that everybody at least my uh request is that everybody at least get started and start asking the get started and start asking the get started and start asking the questions. At Even Tide, we screen out questions. At Even Tide, we screen out questions. At Even Tide, we screen out about 70% of the S&P 500. So our about 70% of the S&P 500. So our about 70% of the S&P 500. So our investment team could only invest in investment team could only invest in investment team could only invest in about 30% of it. When it comes to about 30% of it. When it comes to about 30% of it. When it comes to midcap, the Russell 2000, it's about 50% midcap, the Russell 2000, it's about 50% midcap, the Russell 2000, it's about 50% that we screen out. And when it comes to that we screen out. And when it comes to that we screen out. And when it comes to small cap companies, u less get screened small cap companies, u less get screened small cap companies, u less get screened out. um there are less problems that we out. um there are less problems that we out. um there are less problems that we see in the smaller cap companies. So um see in the smaller cap companies. So um see in the smaller cap companies. So um you know there are other faith-based you know there are other faith-based you know there are other faith-based investment firms that may screen out

investment firms that may screen out investment firms that may screen out five or 10% of the S&P 500. And so I five or 10% of the S&P 500. And so I five or 10% of the S&P 500. And so I think everybody needs to get comfortable think everybody needs to get comfortable think everybody needs to get comfortable and ask these questions for yourself. Uh and ask these questions for yourself. Uh and ask these questions for yourself. Uh I think most Christians would agree that I think most Christians would agree that I think most Christians would agree that we want to avoid things like abortion, we want to avoid things like abortion, we want to avoid things like abortion, pornography, tobacco, maybe gambling, uh pornography, tobacco, maybe gambling, uh pornography, tobacco, maybe gambling, uh maybe alcohol. Um maybe um Christians maybe alcohol. Um maybe um Christians maybe alcohol. Um maybe um Christians might say, "Well, I want to avoid uh might say, "Well, I want to avoid uh might say, "Well, I want to avoid uh environmental harm. I want to avoid environmental harm. I want to avoid environmental harm. I want to avoid investing in companies that are um investing in companies that are um investing in companies that are um involved in predatory lending. Uh I want involved in predatory lending. Uh I want involved in predatory lending. Uh I want to uh avoid investing uh in companies to uh avoid investing uh in companies to uh avoid investing uh in companies that make weaponry. So that, you know, that make weaponry. So that, you know, that make weaponry. So that, you know, we should be asking ourselves these we should be asking ourselves these we should be asking ourselves these questions and and praying through them questions and and praying through them questions and and praying through them and reading the Bible and trying to and reading the Bible and trying to and reading the Bible and trying to compare these values against uh what uh compare these values against uh what uh compare these values against uh what uh what scripture teaches. Uh that said to what scripture teaches. Uh that said to what scripture teaches. Uh that said to answer your question, it's not just answer your question, it's not just answer your question, it's not just about avoiding the bad. Uh Romans 12 about avoiding the bad. Uh Romans 12 about avoiding the bad. Uh Romans 12 says, "Hate what is evil, cling to what says, "Hate what is evil, cling to what says, "Hate what is evil, cling to what is good." So at Even Tide, we don't just is good." So at Even Tide, we don't just is good." So at Even Tide, we don't just want to try to avoid the bad. We want to want to try to avoid the bad. We want to want to try to avoid the bad. We want to try to embrace the good. We want to try try to embrace the good. We want to try try to embrace the good. We want to try to find the companies that are really to find the companies that are really to find the companies that are really promoting human flourishing. And of promoting human flourishing. And of promoting human flourishing. And of course, there are many companies out course, there are many companies out course, there are many companies out there that are not doing bad uh that I there that are not doing bad uh that I there that are not doing bad uh that I would be totally fine investing in. But would be totally fine investing in. But would be totally fine investing in. But at Even Tide, we do try to go one step at Even Tide, we do try to go one step at Even Tide, we do try to go one step further and ask, is this company really further and ask, is this company really further and ask, is this company really promoting human flourishing and the promoting human flourishing and the promoting human flourishing and the common good? How does that work for an common good? How does that work for an common good? How does that work for an individual investor who um as a individual investor who um as a individual investor who um as a Christian uh he or she might be a be a

Christian uh he or she might be a be a Christian uh he or she might be a be a pac pacifist as an example? So somebody pac pacifist as an example? So somebody pac pacifist as an example? So somebody over here might believe in just war over here might believe in just war over here might believe in just war theory and therefore investing in a theory and therefore investing in a theory and therefore investing in a defense contractor, for example, defense contractor, for example, defense contractor, for example, wouldn't be a problem. But somebody over wouldn't be a problem. But somebody over wouldn't be a problem. But somebody over there, there's a pacifist. How would there, there's a pacifist. How would there, there's a pacifist. How would that work for you guys? that work for you guys? that work for you guys? >> Yeah. So, we offend everybody equally at >> Yeah. So, we offend everybody equally at >> Yeah. So, we offend everybody equally at even at even tight. [laughter] Uh so, so even at even tight. [laughter] Uh so, so even at even tight. [laughter] Uh so, so we have people that will challenge us we have people that will challenge us we have people that will challenge us and we try to be consistent. So, to to and we try to be consistent. So, to to and we try to be consistent. So, to to answer your question very specifically answer your question very specifically answer your question very specifically there uh we talk about life at all there uh we talk about life at all there uh we talk about life at all stages, right? The right to life at all stages, right? The right to life at all stages, right? The right to life at all stages. That includes screening out stages. That includes screening out stages. That includes screening out abortion. That also includes screening abortion. That also includes screening abortion. That also includes screening out weaponry. Uh and to be clear, I'm out weaponry. Uh and to be clear, I'm out weaponry. Uh and to be clear, I'm not saying I'm not saying that all not saying I'm not saying that all not saying I'm not saying that all weaponry is bad. Okay, I'm not saying weaponry is bad. Okay, I'm not saying weaponry is bad. Okay, I'm not saying that. Uh but what I am saying is that uh that. Uh but what I am saying is that uh that. Uh but what I am saying is that uh as investors, we are rooting for the as investors, we are rooting for the as investors, we are rooting for the companies we invest in. And so do we companies we invest in. And so do we companies we invest in. And so do we want to see more more weaponry in the want to see more more weaponry in the want to see more more weaponry in the world or not? And so uh that doesn't world or not? And so uh that doesn't world or not? And so uh that doesn't mean that weaponry is not necessary. mean that weaponry is not necessary. mean that weaponry is not necessary. There are times I I do believe that There are times I I do believe that There are times I I do believe that weaponry is necessary. my co my co weaponry is necessary. my co my co weaponry is necessary. my co my co co-founder Finny uh is a very much from co-founder Finny uh is a very much from co-founder Finny uh is a very much from an Anabaptist background and so he does an Anabaptist background and so he does an Anabaptist background and so he does have a a different view and at even tide have a a different view and at even tide have a a different view and at even tide what we've tried to do is to take all what we've tried to do is to take all what we've tried to do is to take all the consciences that Christians have and the consciences that Christians have and the consciences that Christians have and try to bring that into an investment try to bring that into an investment try to bring that into an investment framework. So at the end of the day we framework. So at the end of the day we framework. So at the end of the day we are screening more than what any single are screening more than what any single are screening more than what any single investor is asking for. Oh, very very investor is asking for. Oh, very very investor is asking for. Oh, very very helpful talking here with Robin John,

helpful talking here with Robin John, helpful talking here with Robin John, author of The Good Investor: How Your author of The Good Investor: How Your author of The Good Investor: How Your Work Can Confront Injustice, Love Your Work Can Confront Injustice, Love Your Work Can Confront Injustice, Love Your Neighbor, and Braling to the World. He's Neighbor, and Braling to the World. He's Neighbor, and Braling to the World. He's co-founder and CEO of Even Tide. Uh co-founder and CEO of Even Tide. Uh co-founder and CEO of Even Tide. Uh Robin, you you write in the book about Robin, you you write in the book about Robin, you you write in the book about the cautionary case of Bill Hang. He is the cautionary case of Bill Hang. He is the cautionary case of Bill Hang. He is described by Business Week as the described by Business Week as the described by Business Week as the paradoxical story of a man devoted to paradoxical story of a man devoted to paradoxical story of a man devoted to his church and driven to give generously his church and driven to give generously his church and driven to give generously with a consuming taste for casinolike with a consuming taste for casinolike with a consuming taste for casinolike risk in his professional life. And I risk in his professional life. And I risk in his professional life. And I want to mention also your your own want to mention also your your own want to mention also your your own commentary on him from the book. You say commentary on him from the book. You say commentary on him from the book. You say you can't, it turns out, separate your you can't, it turns out, separate your you can't, it turns out, separate your personal faith and the way you do your personal faith and the way you do your personal faith and the way you do your work. We can't separate the values we work. We can't separate the values we work. We can't separate the values we say we hold from the way we live, work, say we hold from the way we live, work, say we hold from the way we live, work, and invest. Despite good intentions and and invest. Despite good intentions and and invest. Despite good intentions and good ideals, Hong's investing inflicted good ideals, Hong's investing inflicted good ideals, Hong's investing inflicted great harm. The profit he amassed for great harm. The profit he amassed for great harm. The profit he amassed for all the good he thought it would do was all the good he thought it would do was all the good he thought it would do was poisoned. Instead of fighting the poisoned. Instead of fighting the poisoned. Instead of fighting the dragons, he fed them. In November 2024, dragons, he fed them. In November 2024, dragons, he fed them. In November 2024, Hong was sentenced to 18 years in prison Hong was sentenced to 18 years in prison Hong was sentenced to 18 years in prison for wire fraud, securities fraud, and for wire fraud, securities fraud, and for wire fraud, securities fraud, and market manipulation. market manipulation. market manipulation. Uh Robin, the rest of us are not in this Uh Robin, the rest of us are not in this Uh Robin, the rest of us are not in this world. We we don't rub shoulders with world. We we don't rub shoulders with world. We we don't rub shoulders with the people in these uh environments.

the people in these uh environments. the people in these uh environments. Is Hong's story an an outlier or is it Is Hong's story an an outlier or is it Is Hong's story an an outlier or is it more common than maybe the rest of us more common than maybe the rest of us more common than maybe the rest of us would realize? would realize? would realize? >> It's more common. Uh I think the >> It's more common. Uh I think the >> It's more common. Uh I think the difference is the amount of money that difference is the amount of money that difference is the amount of money that Bill Hang was managing. Uh I think my Bill Hang was managing. Uh I think my Bill Hang was managing. Uh I think my experience speaking to Christians is experience speaking to Christians is experience speaking to Christians is that most Christians have a make all you that most Christians have a make all you that most Christians have a make all you can to give all you can mindset. And can to give all you can mindset. And can to give all you can mindset. And that is what Bill Hang had. He wanted to that is what Bill Hang had. He wanted to that is what Bill Hang had. He wanted to make all the money he possibly could make all the money he possibly could make all the money he possibly could make in order to donate to uh his make in order to donate to uh his make in order to donate to uh his foundation and he just wasn't being foundation and he just wasn't being foundation and he just wasn't being thought thinking about how he was going thought thinking about how he was going thought thinking about how he was going about making that money and he was about making that money and he was about making that money and he was taking a lot of risk and uh leveraging taking a lot of risk and uh leveraging taking a lot of risk and uh leveraging in ways that were unwise. Uh I think a in ways that were unwise. Uh I think a in ways that were unwise. Uh I think a lot of Christians have this view of make lot of Christians have this view of make lot of Christians have this view of make all you can and ultimately if I'm giving all you can and ultimately if I'm giving all you can and ultimately if I'm giving money away isn't that what God really money away isn't that what God really money away isn't that what God really cares about? And I don't see a category cares about? And I don't see a category cares about? And I don't see a category in the Bible for making money in ways in the Bible for making money in ways in the Bible for making money in ways that are not aligned with biblical that are not aligned with biblical that are not aligned with biblical principles. Um, like I I said earlier, principles. Um, like I I said earlier, principles. Um, like I I said earlier, Proverbs 16:8, better is a little bit Proverbs 16:8, better is a little bit Proverbs 16:8, better is a little bit with righteousness than great revenues with righteousness than great revenues with righteousness than great revenues with injustice. Deuteronomy 23:18 says, with injustice. Deuteronomy 23:18 says, with injustice. Deuteronomy 23:18 says, "Not to bring the earnings of a "Not to bring the earnings of a "Not to bring the earnings of a prostitute, male or female, into the prostitute, male or female, into the prostitute, male or female, into the temple, to pay any vow, for this is an temple, to pay any vow, for this is an temple, to pay any vow, for this is an abomination to the Lord your God." Uh in abomination to the Lord your God." Uh in abomination to the Lord your God." Uh in the New Testament we see Judas bringing the New Testament we see Judas bringing the New Testament we see Judas bringing the blood money into the temple and the the blood money into the temple and the the blood money into the temple and the high priest says this is blood money. It high priest says this is blood money. It high priest says this is blood money. It is unlawful for us to receive it into

is unlawful for us to receive it into is unlawful for us to receive it into the temple. So this principle of the temple. So this principle of the temple. So this principle of illotten gain is there throughout the illotten gain is there throughout the illotten gain is there throughout the Bible and the Bible tells us not to Bible and the Bible tells us not to Bible and the Bible tells us not to receive it to stay away from it. So this receive it to stay away from it. So this receive it to stay away from it. So this idea that I can make money in that way idea that I can make money in that way idea that I can make money in that way and it's okay as long as I'm giving and it's okay as long as I'm giving and it's okay as long as I'm giving money away. First of all, I would say money away. First of all, I would say money away. First of all, I would say that most Christians are not giving away that most Christians are not giving away that most Christians are not giving away 100% of the money anyway, 100% of the money anyway, 100% of the money anyway, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> They're probably giving away 10 20% of >> They're probably giving away 10 20% of >> They're probably giving away 10 20% of it. So, I think we got to be very it. So, I think we got to be very it. So, I think we got to be very careful in how we think about the careful in how we think about the careful in how we think about the profits we make and make sure that the profits we make and make sure that the profits we make and make sure that the profits we make are are aligned with profits we make are are aligned with profits we make are are aligned with God's heart for the world. Yeah. Um I I God's heart for the world. Yeah. Um I I God's heart for the world. Yeah. Um I I wonder how much of it is not even u wonder how much of it is not even u wonder how much of it is not even u making as much to give it away, but making as much to give it away, but making as much to give it away, but simply a total separation between faith simply a total separation between faith simply a total separation between faith and work. a total um you know that's and work. a total um you know that's and work. a total um you know that's that's my work world and this is my that's my work world and this is my that's my work world and this is my private devotional world over here. Do private devotional world over here. Do private devotional world over here. Do you think that's part of the challenge you think that's part of the challenge you think that's part of the challenge too? That's a big part of the challenge too? That's a big part of the challenge too? That's a big part of the challenge and I think that that issue leads to and I think that that issue leads to and I think that that issue leads to conformity conformity conformity and uh you know Romans 12:2 says do do and uh you know Romans 12:2 says do do and uh you know Romans 12:2 says do do not be conformed to the patterns of the not be conformed to the patterns of the not be conformed to the patterns of the world but be transformed by the renewing world but be transformed by the renewing world but be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may test and of your minds so that you may test and of your minds so that you may test and approve God's good pleasing and perfect approve God's good pleasing and perfect approve God's good pleasing and perfect will and the chapter goes on to say let will and the chapter goes on to say let will and the chapter goes on to say let your love be without hypocrisy hate what your love be without hypocrisy hate what your love be without hypocrisy hate what is evil cling to what is good so I do is evil cling to what is good so I do is evil cling to what is good so I do think that a lot of Christians just think that a lot of Christians just think that a lot of Christians just don't think carefully about how they're don't think carefully about how they're don't think carefully about how they're working, where they're working, how

working, where they're working, how working, where they're working, how they're investing, and therefore we tend they're investing, and therefore we tend they're investing, and therefore we tend to behave just like the world. And we to behave just like the world. And we to behave just like the world. And we tend to invest in these indices uh like tend to invest in these indices uh like tend to invest in these indices uh like the S&P 500 that contains all sorts of the S&P 500 that contains all sorts of the S&P 500 that contains all sorts of problems like abortion and pornography problems like abortion and pornography problems like abortion and pornography and tobacco. uh just from a tobacco and tobacco. uh just from a tobacco and tobacco. uh just from a tobacco perspective, Philip Moors International, perspective, Philip Moors International, perspective, Philip Moors International, Altria Group, British British American Altria Group, British British American Altria Group, British British American Tobacco, Japan Tobacco, these are all Tobacco, Japan Tobacco, these are all Tobacco, Japan Tobacco, these are all publicly traded companies. And I think publicly traded companies. And I think publicly traded companies. And I think if Christians just took the time to look if Christians just took the time to look if Christians just took the time to look at their portfolio to know what they're at their portfolio to know what they're at their portfolio to know what they're investing in, they would likely make investing in, they would likely make investing in, they would likely make different decisions. But rather what we different decisions. But rather what we different decisions. But rather what we do is we become so passive in our do is we become so passive in our do is we become so passive in our thinking. And we outsource our investing thinking. And we outsource our investing thinking. And we outsource our investing to people that don't share our values, to people that don't share our values, to people that don't share our values, to firms, to portfolio managers, to to firms, to portfolio managers, to to firms, to portfolio managers, to financial advisors that don't share our financial advisors that don't share our financial advisors that don't share our values. or we just invested in a values. or we just invested in a values. or we just invested in a benchmark, an index like the S&P 500 and benchmark, an index like the S&P 500 and benchmark, an index like the S&P 500 and we set it and forget it without actually we set it and forget it without actually we set it and forget it without actually actually looking at what's inside of actually looking at what's inside of actually looking at what's inside of that index.

that index. that index. >> A few more questions here with Robin >> A few more questions here with Robin >> A few more questions here with Robin John, co-founder, CEO of Even Tide. John, co-founder, CEO of Even Tide. John, co-founder, CEO of Even Tide. Robin, what's the biggest way investing Robin, what's the biggest way investing Robin, what's the biggest way investing has changed just from the start of your has changed just from the start of your has changed just from the start of your career until today? So when we started career until today? So when we started career until today? So when we started Even Tide in 2008, you know, we were Even Tide in 2008, you know, we were Even Tide in 2008, you know, we were praying and fasting before the founding praying and fasting before the founding praying and fasting before the founding of Even Tide for about uh six months and of Even Tide for about uh six months and of Even Tide for about uh six months and uh after starting Even Tide, I felt a uh after starting Even Tide, I felt a uh after starting Even Tide, I felt a lot of resistance from Christians. Uh lot of resistance from Christians. Uh lot of resistance from Christians. Uh the faith-based investing movement was the faith-based investing movement was the faith-based investing movement was fledgling. Uh since that point, it's fledgling. Uh since that point, it's fledgling. Uh since that point, it's really grown a lot. alongside even there really grown a lot. alongside even there really grown a lot. alongside even there are many other faith-based investment are many other faith-based investment are many other faith-based investment firms that have grown but beyond that um firms that have grown but beyond that um firms that have grown but beyond that um unfortunately what I'm not happy about unfortunately what I'm not happy about unfortunately what I'm not happy about is that the ESG movement has grown at a is that the ESG movement has grown at a is that the ESG movement has grown at a much more rapid pace uh so uh all much more rapid pace uh so uh all much more rapid pace uh so uh all faith-based firms combined may have 100 faith-based firms combined may have 100 faith-based firms combined may have 100 to 150 billion dollars under management to 150 billion dollars under management to 150 billion dollars under management the ESG space has trillions under the ESG space has trillions under the ESG space has trillions under management when we got started The ESG management when we got started The ESG management when we got started The ESG space was also very much uh a small space was also very much uh a small space was also very much uh a small movement and uh today everybody is talks movement and uh today everybody is talks movement and uh today everybody is talks about ESG. Unfortunately, the about ESG. Unfortunately, the about ESG. Unfortunately, the non-Christian world has been aligning non-Christian world has been aligning non-Christian world has been aligning their values and their investments. The their values and their investments. The their values and their investments. The Christian world hasn't been doing that.

Christian world hasn't been doing that. Christian world hasn't been doing that. And so what I'm hoping to do with the And so what I'm hoping to do with the And so what I'm hoping to do with the book, The Good Investor, as well as all book, The Good Investor, as well as all book, The Good Investor, as well as all the work that we do here at Even Tide, the work that we do here at Even Tide, the work that we do here at Even Tide, is not just to promote Even Tide, but to is not just to promote Even Tide, but to is not just to promote Even Tide, but to help start a movement where Christians help start a movement where Christians help start a movement where Christians are really uh thinking about partnering are really uh thinking about partnering are really uh thinking about partnering together and uh promoting the world together and uh promoting the world together and uh promoting the world together. You know, Jesus said in uh the together. You know, Jesus said in uh the together. You know, Jesus said in uh the world that we want to see, right? Jesus world that we want to see, right? Jesus world that we want to see, right? Jesus said in Matthew 5, "Let the world see said in Matthew 5, "Let the world see said in Matthew 5, "Let the world see your good works and glorify your father your good works and glorify your father your good works and glorify your father in heaven." So hopefully the world will in heaven." So hopefully the world will in heaven." So hopefully the world will see Christians investing in ways uh at see Christians investing in ways uh at see Christians investing in ways uh at times maybe even sacrificially working times maybe even sacrificially working times maybe even sacrificially working and investing in ways that lead to a and investing in ways that lead to a and investing in ways that lead to a better outcome for everyone and better outcome for everyone and better outcome for everyone and hopefully that becomes a testimony and a hopefully that becomes a testimony and a hopefully that becomes a testimony and a witness for the church. witness for the church. witness for the church. >> For some of our noviceses who are >> For some of our noviceses who are >> For some of our noviceses who are watching and listening, could you tell watching and listening, could you tell watching and listening, could you tell us a little bit more what ESG is? us a little bit more what ESG is? us a little bit more what ESG is? >> Yes, ESG stands for environmental social >> Yes, ESG stands for environmental social >> Yes, ESG stands for environmental social governance. governance. governance. It's the kind of the non-Christian maybe It's the kind of the non-Christian maybe It's the kind of the non-Christian maybe more liberal version of what we are more liberal version of what we are more liberal version of what we are doing. So for example, we will you know doing. So for example, we will you know doing. So for example, we will you know we promote um life at all stages. We we promote um life at all stages. We we promote um life at all stages. We promote for the life of the unborn child promote for the life of the unborn child promote for the life of the unborn child at even tide. The ESG movement will at even tide. The ESG movement will at even tide. The ESG movement will promote for the opposite. They will promote for the opposite. They will promote for the opposite. They will promote for the the the freedom of the promote for the the the freedom of the promote for the the the freedom of the the mother uh to make a decision. Uh so the mother uh to make a decision. Uh so the mother uh to make a decision. Uh so some of the values are very aligned. For some of the values are very aligned. For some of the values are very aligned. For example, tobacco, I think we would see example, tobacco, I think we would see example, tobacco, I think we would see in alignment.

in alignment. in alignment. But I have been shocked over the years But I have been shocked over the years But I have been shocked over the years to see that certain values in the ESG to see that certain values in the ESG to see that certain values in the ESG world that we shared in 2008 world that we shared in 2008 world that we shared in 2008 seemed to be diverging since that point. seemed to be diverging since that point. seemed to be diverging since that point. So for example, pornography I think when So for example, pornography I think when So for example, pornography I think when we were starting even tide I think we were starting even tide I think we were starting even tide I think within the ESG SRRI SRI stands for within the ESG SRRI SRI stands for within the ESG SRRI SRI stands for socially responsible investing. It's socially responsible investing. It's socially responsible investing. It's it's kind of a si singular movement but it's kind of a si singular movement but it's kind of a si singular movement but but I but I would say 15 years ago when but I but I would say 15 years ago when but I but I would say 15 years ago when I talked to people there there was I talked to people there there was I talked to people there there was alignment in terms of thinking about alignment in terms of thinking about alignment in terms of thinking about pornography similar similarly to a pornography similar similarly to a pornography similar similarly to a Christian but now you have firms like Christian but now you have firms like Christian but now you have firms like there's a firm called ethical capital there's a firm called ethical capital there's a firm called ethical capital that they they purchased pornhub that they they purchased pornhub that they they purchased pornhub so I mean the name of the firm is so I mean the name of the firm is so I mean the name of the firm is ethical capital right So [laughter] ethical capital right So [laughter] ethical capital right So [laughter] >> the upside down world I guess. >> the upside down world I guess. >> the upside down world I guess. >> Yeah. So I would say uh the values >> Yeah. So I would say uh the values >> Yeah. So I would say uh the values within the ESG U SRRI socially within the ESG U SRRI socially within the ESG U SRRI socially responsible investing movement has responsible investing movement has responsible investing movement has shifted alongside culture where as shifted alongside culture where as shifted alongside culture where as Christians we have a standard which is Christians we have a standard which is Christians we have a standard which is the Bible. Uh so our values shouldn't be the Bible. Uh so our values shouldn't be the Bible. Uh so our values shouldn't be shifting alongside culture. Robin, is it shifting alongside culture. Robin, is it shifting alongside culture. Robin, is it so much that they've shifted alongside so much that they've shifted alongside so much that they've shifted alongside culture or they've actually been the culture or they've actually been the culture or they've actually been the engine of the cultural change? Because engine of the cultural change? Because engine of the cultural change? Because one of the most significant developments one of the most significant developments one of the most significant developments in the last 15 years has been a really

in the last 15 years has been a really in the last 15 years has been a really significant shift in corporate America significant shift in corporate America significant shift in corporate America toward the left, especially on corporate toward the left, especially on corporate toward the left, especially on corporate issues. And is it not the case that with issues. And is it not the case that with issues. And is it not the case that with the ESG movement, they also leverage the the ESG movement, they also leverage the the ESG movement, they also leverage the shareholders value shareholders against shareholders value shareholders against shareholders value shareholders against company policies or to change company company policies or to change company company policies or to change company policies? Isn't that part of the part of policies? Isn't that part of the part of policies? Isn't that part of the part of the movement as well? the movement as well? the movement as well? >> Yes. Um um you're you're right and I >> Yes. Um um you're you're right and I >> Yes. Um um you're you're right and I think it's a combination of the two. I think it's a combination of the two. I think it's a combination of the two. I do think that there are companies, do think that there are companies, do think that there are companies, company CEOs, company uh leadership company CEOs, company uh leadership company CEOs, company uh leadership teams that really are pushing their teams that really are pushing their teams that really are pushing their agenda and using their corporate agenda and using their corporate agenda and using their corporate platform to push their agenda. Uh but I platform to push their agenda. Uh but I platform to push their agenda. Uh but I think there are also lots of CEOs who think there are also lots of CEOs who think there are also lots of CEOs who just feel the pressure. Yeah. and they just feel the pressure. Yeah. and they just feel the pressure. Yeah. and they don't want to be left behind and they don't want to be left behind and they don't want to be left behind and they don't want to be seen as a person who um don't want to be seen as a person who um don't want to be seen as a person who um isn't advocating for the values that are isn't advocating for the values that are isn't advocating for the values that are accepted in society. So I think there's accepted in society. So I think there's accepted in society. So I think there's a lot of people that just feel the a lot of people that just feel the a lot of people that just feel the pressure to go along with uh with what pressure to go along with uh with what pressure to go along with uh with what the larger firms are doing. the larger firms are doing. the larger firms are doing. >> So essentially if I'm understanding >> So essentially if I'm understanding >> So essentially if I'm understanding correctly there had been more of a LZ correctly there had been more of a LZ correctly there had been more of a LZ fair approach to investing. You just if fair approach to investing. You just if fair approach to investing. You just if you make money it's okay. Um but then you make money it's okay. Um but then you make money it's okay. Um but then there had been a shift toward more there had been a shift toward more there had been a shift toward more values aligned investing and even tad values aligned investing and even tad values aligned investing and even tad represents some of that but a much represents some of that but a much represents some of that but a much larger manifestation of it is on the larger manifestation of it is on the larger manifestation of it is on the left.

left. left. >> Is that an accurate description then of >> Is that an accurate description then of >> Is that an accurate description then of the last 15 20 years? the last 15 20 years? the last 15 20 years? >> That is absolutely right. Um the uh the >> That is absolutely right. Um the uh the >> That is absolutely right. Um the uh the value space so I even titled you know value space so I even titled you know value space so I even titled you know usually I talk about mission alignment usually I talk about mission alignment usually I talk about mission alignment and values alignment. Okay. When I say and values alignment. Okay. When I say and values alignment. Okay. When I say mission alignment, what I mean is that mission alignment, what I mean is that mission alignment, what I mean is that uh so let's say you believe in the power uh so let's say you believe in the power uh so let's say you believe in the power of investing to change the world and I of investing to change the world and I of investing to change the world and I believe in the power of investing to believe in the power of investing to believe in the power of investing to change the world. I would say we're change the world. I would say we're change the world. I would say we're missionarily aligned. Now the question missionarily aligned. Now the question missionarily aligned. Now the question is is our values aligned? Right? U so I is is our values aligned? Right? U so I is is our values aligned? Right? U so I would say the ESG SRRI world and the would say the ESG SRRI world and the would say the ESG SRRI world and the faith-based world are mission aligned faith-based world are mission aligned faith-based world are mission aligned but not values aligned. Christians are but not values aligned. Christians are but not values aligned. Christians are values aligned with even tide. And I'm values aligned with even tide. And I'm values aligned with even tide. And I'm trying to get them to become missional trying to get them to become missional trying to get them to become missional aligned with even tide because most aligned with even tide because most aligned with even tide because most Christians will say, you know what, I'm Christians will say, you know what, I'm Christians will say, you know what, I'm I align with your values, Robin. I'm I align with your values, Robin. I'm I align with your values, Robin. I'm going to vote based on those values. I'm going to vote based on those values. I'm going to vote based on those values. I'm going to give to charity based on those going to give to charity based on those going to give to charity based on those values. I'm not going to invest based on values. I'm not going to invest based on values. I'm not going to invest based on those values. So, I'm trying to get those values. So, I'm trying to get those values. So, I'm trying to get values aligned Christians to becoming values aligned Christians to becoming values aligned Christians to becoming more missional aligned with Even Tide.

more missional aligned with Even Tide. more missional aligned with Even Tide. >> And so, this isn't merely about our own >> And so, this isn't merely about our own >> And so, this isn't merely about our own individual consciences, but this is individual consciences, but this is individual consciences, but this is actually then an engine potentially of actually then an engine potentially of actually then an engine potentially of broader cultural change for the common broader cultural change for the common broader cultural change for the common good. Yes, very much. And uh you know, I good. Yes, very much. And uh you know, I good. Yes, very much. And uh you know, I think as individual investors, we could think as individual investors, we could think as individual investors, we could feel very small, but when we could feel very small, but when we could feel very small, but when we could partner together, it's not just with partner together, it's not just with partner together, it's not just with Event, there are other faith-based Event, there are other faith-based Event, there are other faith-based investment firms, but when we uh partner investment firms, but when we uh partner investment firms, but when we uh partner together, I think we can bring about the together, I think we can bring about the together, I think we can bring about the cultural change that we're hoping to cultural change that we're hoping to cultural change that we're hoping to see. see. see. >> Couple more questions here. Rob and John >> Couple more questions here. Rob and John >> Couple more questions here. Rob and John talking about the good investor, how talking about the good investor, how talking about the good investor, how your work can confront injustice, love your work can confront injustice, love your work can confront injustice, love your neighbor, bring healing to the your neighbor, bring healing to the your neighbor, bring healing to the world. Robin, what's one piece of godly world. Robin, what's one piece of godly world. Robin, what's one piece of godly counsel you've learned that we could all counsel you've learned that we could all counsel you've learned that we could all take into any job or calling? take into any job or calling? take into any job or calling? >> The biggest is that uh you know, >> The biggest is that uh you know, >> The biggest is that uh you know, Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10 says that Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10 says that Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10 says that we are God's workmanship. We are God's we are God's workmanship. We are God's we are God's workmanship. We are God's handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do good works. Uh I think uh the biggest good works. Uh I think uh the biggest good works. Uh I think uh the biggest advice I have learned or been given uh advice I have learned or been given uh advice I have learned or been given uh what I would want to share with others what I would want to share with others what I would want to share with others is that I think as Christians we is that I think as Christians we is that I think as Christians we sometimes think that the good work in sometimes think that the good work in sometimes think that the good work in the good works in the Bible is only what the good works in the Bible is only what the good works in the Bible is only what we do outside of the 9 to5.

we do outside of the 9 to5. we do outside of the 9 to5. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's only the work that we do uh >> Right. It's only the work that we do uh >> Right. It's only the work that we do uh if we're not getting paid to do that um if we're not getting paid to do that um if we're not getting paid to do that um you know what we do through a nonprofit you know what we do through a nonprofit you know what we do through a nonprofit or through the church. But I do believe or through the church. But I do believe or through the church. But I do believe that our everyday work is included here that our everyday work is included here that our everyday work is included here in the in that. Um and I do believe that in the in that. Um and I do believe that in the in that. Um and I do believe that a lot of Christians are doing good work a lot of Christians are doing good work a lot of Christians are doing good work and they just need to be encouraged in and they just need to be encouraged in and they just need to be encouraged in it. So in in the book I mentioned my it. So in in the book I mentioned my it. So in in the book I mentioned my mother when we came to the US she was mother when we came to the US she was mother when we came to the US she was working as a nursing aid and you know working as a nursing aid and you know working as a nursing aid and you know minimum wage she would do this for maybe minimum wage she would do this for maybe minimum wage she would do this for maybe 20 years receiving minimum wage or so uh 20 years receiving minimum wage or so uh 20 years receiving minimum wage or so uh bathing the elderly cleaning them. she bathing the elderly cleaning them. she bathing the elderly cleaning them. she still struggles to speak English and uh still struggles to speak English and uh still struggles to speak English and uh you know growing up you know in so in you know growing up you know in so in you know growing up you know in so in the book I talk about the names I was the book I talk about the names I was the book I talk about the names I was called you know names like Hhabib and called you know names like Hhabib and called you know names like Hhabib and Apoo and all that you know asking Apoo and all that you know asking Apoo and all that you know asking whether my dad works on the 7-Eleven and whether my dad works on the 7-Eleven and whether my dad works on the 7-Eleven and so I could only imagine what my mother so I could only imagine what my mother so I could only imagine what my mother might have heard in the town that we might have heard in the town that we might have heard in the town that we grew up um I wish someone had told her grew up um I wish someone had told her grew up um I wish someone had told her hey your value is not just your paycheck hey your value is not just your paycheck hey your value is not just your paycheck uh you know your value in this job um uh you know your value in this job um uh you know your value in this job um it's not just the minimum wage paycheck it's not just the minimum wage paycheck it's not just the minimum wage paycheck check that you bring to the house, to check that you bring to the house, to check that you bring to the house, to the home, to the family, but every the home, to the family, but every the home, to the family, but every single day you're loving and caring for single day you're loving and caring for single day you're loving and caring for the elderly when you bathe them, and the elderly when you bathe them, and the elderly when you bathe them, and when you clean them. And so I think more when you clean them. And so I think more when you clean them. And so I think more Christians just need to be encouraged in Christians just need to be encouraged in Christians just need to be encouraged in their everyday work. Um, so I I know the their everyday work. Um, so I I know the their everyday work. Um, so I I know the topic of this conversation so far was topic of this conversation so far was topic of this conversation so far was investing, but I just want to encourage investing, but I just want to encourage investing, but I just want to encourage people in their work that you might be

people in their work that you might be people in their work that you might be doing a job that where you feel burnt doing a job that where you feel burnt doing a job that where you feel burnt out, but but you you may be honoring God out, but but you you may be honoring God out, but but you you may be honoring God and loving your neighbor through that and loving your neighbor through that and loving your neighbor through that work. work. work. >> Yeah. Amen. Last question, Robin. By the >> Yeah. Amen. Last question, Robin. By the >> Yeah. Amen. Last question, Robin. By the time you retire, what legacy do you hope time you retire, what legacy do you hope time you retire, what legacy do you hope to leave? to leave? to leave? >> So, there's a couple of ways to answer >> So, there's a couple of ways to answer >> So, there's a couple of ways to answer that. Um, so you know, I often think to that. Um, so you know, I often think to that. Um, so you know, I often think to myself, you know, when I was I have four myself, you know, when I was I have four myself, you know, when I was I have four kids. My oldest is 15, my youngest is kids. My oldest is 15, my youngest is kids. My oldest is 15, my youngest is two, and my 15year-old when she was like two, and my 15year-old when she was like two, and my 15year-old when she was like three, this was many years ago. She was three, this was many years ago. She was three, this was many years ago. She was still learning uh how to speak. And um still learning uh how to speak. And um still learning uh how to speak. And um she used to call me daddy boy or dad she used to call me daddy boy or dad she used to call me daddy boy or dad boy. And her good was goo. She didn't boy. And her good was goo. She didn't boy. And her good was goo. She didn't say the full. She's a one day she's a say the full. She's a one day she's a say the full. She's a one day she's a daddy boy or dad boy you a goat man. So daddy boy or dad boy you a goat man. So daddy boy or dad boy you a goat man. So my so I hope someday when I'm you know my so I hope someday when I'm you know my so I hope someday when I'm you know uh you know in you know in a casket uh uh you know in you know in a casket uh uh you know in you know in a casket uh she would say daddy was a good man. So I she would say daddy was a good man. So I she would say daddy was a good man. So I would say ultimately you know God would say ultimately you know God would say ultimately you know God created us to be good and we see in created us to be good and we see in created us to be good and we see in Genesis 1 uh that uh we are created in Genesis 1 uh that uh we are created in Genesis 1 uh that uh we are created in God's image in his likeness uh and it God's image in his likeness uh and it God's image in his likeness uh and it says so that we could continue the work says so that we could continue the work says so that we could continue the work that he started his work is good he that he started his work is good he that he started his work is good he calls good over and over and over his calls good over and over and over his calls good over and over and over his work I just mentioned the Ephesians 2:10 work I just mentioned the Ephesians 2:10 work I just mentioned the Ephesians 2:10 verse u someday when we stand before God verse u someday when we stand before God verse u someday when we stand before God we want to hear well done good and we want to hear well done good and we want to hear well done good and faithful servant faithful servant faithful servant So what I really hope is that you know

So what I really hope is that you know So what I really hope is that you know that's that ultimately that God would that's that ultimately that God would that's that ultimately that God would say good uh when I stand before God. Um say good uh when I stand before God. Um say good uh when I stand before God. Um I hope my children my wife would say I hope my children my wife would say I hope my children my wife would say that I was a good man. Um ultimately that I was a good man. Um ultimately that I was a good man. Um ultimately great place [music] to end it. My guest great place [music] to end it. My guest great place [music] to end it. My guest here on Gospel Bound this week Robin here on Gospel Bound this week Robin here on Gospel Bound this week Robin John CEO and co-founder Even Tide his John CEO and co-founder Even Tide his John CEO and co-founder Even Tide his book check it out. The good investor how book check it out. The good investor how book check it out. The good investor how your work [music] can confront injustice your work [music] can confront injustice your work [music] can confront injustice love your neighbor and bring healing to love your neighbor and bring healing to love your neighbor and bring healing to the world. Really appreciate it. This is the world. Really appreciate it. This is the world. Really appreciate it. This is fascinating, Robin. Keep up the good fascinating, Robin. Keep up the good fascinating, Robin. Keep up the good work. work. work. >> Thank you, Colin. >> Thank you, Colin. >> Thank you, Colin. [music] Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, [music] when we're bound to remember, [music] when we're bound to remember, [music] when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.