Answering Criticisms of Tim Keller's Ministry - Collin Hansen and James Wood

I do love his preach. He's an amazing I do love his preach. He's an amazing preacher of course. Um but over time preacher of course. Um but over time preacher of course. Um but over time there are a couple things I noticed. Uh there are a couple things I noticed. Uh there are a couple things I noticed. Uh one uh is that I do wonder with his one uh is that I do wonder with his one uh is that I do wonder with his strong emphasis on the gospel- centered strong emphasis on the gospel- centered strong emphasis on the gospel- centered preaching and like hey you know Jesus is preaching and like hey you know Jesus is preaching and like hey you know Jesus is the true and better of all the figures the true and better of all the figures the true and better of all the figures that you see in the scriptures and the that you see in the scriptures and the that you see in the scriptures and the real desire to avoid moralism in your real desire to avoid moralism in your real desire to avoid moralism in your preaching. I just wrote down I wonder preaching. I just wrote down I wonder preaching. I just wrote down I wonder this is one of the thoughts I had is this is one of the thoughts I had is this is one of the thoughts I had is when you think about in the attempt to when you think about in the attempt to when you think about in the attempt to avoid moralizing avoid moralizing avoid moralizing does he does he does he fall into a trap where he might actually fall into a trap where he might actually fall into a trap where he might actually be missing one of the key elements of be missing one of the key elements of be missing one of the key elements of what in the medieval interpretive what in the medieval interpretive what in the medieval interpretive practice called the quadria the practice called the quadria the practice called the quadria the four-fold sense of scripture like is four-fold sense of scripture like is four-fold sense of scripture like is there a way that he could round out uh there a way that he could round out uh there a way that he could round out uh the sermons a little bit better to not the sermons a little bit better to not the sermons a little bit better to not just talk about and so here's the way I just talk about and so here's the way I just talk about and so here's the way I phrase it meaning did he foreground the phrase it meaning did he foreground the phrase it meaning did he foreground the typological sense of scripture at the typological sense of scripture at the typological sense of scripture at the expense of the tropological the more expense of the tropological the more expense of the tropological the more that there is still a moral push that that there is still a moral push that that there is still a moral push that needs to be rounded out after you go needs to be rounded out after you go needs to be rounded out after you go through the typology and this is through the typology and this is through the typology and this is relevant also in the in the standard relevant also in the in the standard relevant also in the in the standard form of his sermon uh which I began to form of his sermon uh which I began to form of his sermon uh which I began to the form underneath the way he did the the form underneath the way he did the the form underneath the way he did the sermons over time is he would kind of sermons over time is he would kind of sermons over time is he would kind of present as he's walk through the text is present as he's walk through the text is present as he's walk through the text is hey here's what the text says you're hey here's what the text says you're hey here's what the text says you're supposed to do here's how you can't and supposed to do here's how you can't and supposed to do here's how you can't and here's how Christ did awesome great and here's how Christ did awesome great and here's how Christ did awesome great and I just over time I started to sense like I just over time I started to sense like I just over time I started to sense like and I want this final piece and maybe and I want this final piece and maybe and I want this final piece and maybe sometimes he does it every but it's not sometimes he does it every but it's not sometimes he does it every but it's not the common way is now how in light of the common way is now how in light of the common way is now how in light of that can we live differently and how is that can we live differently and how is that can we live differently and how is the community that's shaped by the the community that's shaped by the the community that's shaped by the gospel uh formed by this in a profoundly gospel uh formed by this in a profoundly gospel uh formed by this in a profoundly different way. I just wanted to hear different way. I just wanted to hear different way. I just wanted to hear that over time more I started to notice that over time more I started to notice that over time more I started to notice that and um and also the the two ditches

that and um and also the the two ditches that and um and also the the two ditches trope that he would often use is neither trope that he would often use is neither trope that he would often use is neither religion or irreligion. I think that religion or irreligion. I think that religion or irreligion. I think that sometimes was imposed on texts uh and sometimes was imposed on texts uh and sometimes was imposed on texts uh and became a distraction to me to a degree. became a distraction to me to a degree. became a distraction to me to a degree. Um, yeah. And then I had questions about Um, yeah. And then I had questions about Um, yeah. And then I had questions about uh I'll I'll maybe uh lastly uh I'll I'll maybe uh lastly uh I'll I'll maybe uh lastly I I do think so I know we're going to I I do think so I know we're going to I I do think so I know we're going to talk about the moment that we're in and talk about the moment that we're in and talk about the moment that we're in and we're going to talk about politics. The we're going to talk about politics. The we're going to talk about politics. The name Donald Trump will come up. He comes name Donald Trump will come up. He comes name Donald Trump will come up. He comes up every single day at some point in up every single day at some point in up every single day at some point in your life. your life. your life. >> It does. >> It does. >> It does. >> Every single day. It's going to happen. >> Every single day. It's going to happen. >> Every single day. It's going to happen. And I don't I don't critique him for not And I don't I don't critique him for not And I don't I don't critique him for not supporting Trump. I think what people do supporting Trump. I think what people do supporting Trump. I think what people do critique is there does seem to be a critique is there does seem to be a critique is there does seem to be a subtext of like dumping on people who do subtext of like dumping on people who do subtext of like dumping on people who do support Trump. And this I just even support Trump. And this I just even support Trump. And this I just even looked back over the decline and renewal looked back over the decline and renewal looked back over the decline and renewal piece and I control effa piece and I control effa piece and I control effa etc. And they're just the subtext there etc. And they're just the subtext there etc. And they're just the subtext there is these people are fundamentalists and is these people are fundamentalists and is these people are fundamentalists and there's just kind of broadsides uh there's just kind of broadsides uh there's just kind of broadsides uh against them and I think in a way that's against them and I think in a way that's against them and I think in a way that's a little bit uncharitable. Um and also I a little bit uncharitable. Um and also I a little bit uncharitable. Um and also I think he made anticipations there and think he made anticipations there and think he made anticipations there and elsewhere that broad support for Trump elsewhere that broad support for Trump elsewhere that broad support for Trump would actually harm evangelistic would actually harm evangelistic would actually harm evangelistic opportunities. And I'm just not sure opportunities. And I'm just not sure opportunities. And I'm just not sure that that is the case. I don't think I that that is the case. I don't think I that that is the case. I don't think I don't I'm not sure I'm not sure it's don't I'm not sure I'm not sure it's don't I'm not sure I'm not sure it's necessarily the opposite either. We'll necessarily the opposite either. We'll necessarily the opposite either. We'll have to wait and see. But I think again have to wait and see. But I think again have to wait and see. But I think again that's part of the interpreting politics that's part of the interpreting politics that's part of the interpreting politics through the lens of evangelism problem through the lens of evangelism problem through the lens of evangelism problem that I have. First of all, I think that I have. First of all, I think that I have. First of all, I think that's the wrong way to just think about that's the wrong way to just think about that's the wrong way to just think about politics. But secondly, I'm not politics. But secondly, I'm not politics. But secondly, I'm not convinced that we can be so certain convinced that we can be so certain convinced that we can be so certain about those things. Um, and I do think about those things. Um, and I do think about those things. Um, and I do think those broad there are broadsides against those broad there are broadsides against those broad there are broadsides against fundamentalists that are often pop up fundamentalists that are often pop up fundamentalists that are often pop up against the religious right against against the religious right against against the religious right against Trump supporters that I just wish he

Trump supporters that I just wish he Trump supporters that I just wish he would have been uh more charitable in. would have been uh more charitable in. would have been uh more charitable in. And I do think lastly, um, there's an a And I do think lastly, um, there's an a And I do think lastly, um, there's an a method that you do see, uh, from time to method that you do see, uh, from time to method that you do see, uh, from time to time. This comes out, if you can look time. This comes out, if you can look time. This comes out, if you can look this up, it's a fascinating little this up, it's a fascinating little this up, it's a fascinating little story, Kristen Powers story about her story, Kristen Powers story about her story, Kristen Powers story about her leaving Trump's church or uh, no, the leaving Trump's church or uh, no, the leaving Trump's church or uh, no, the opposite, uh, Keller's church. And she opposite, uh, Keller's church. And she opposite, uh, Keller's church. And she says, "I was attracted to Keller's brand says, "I was attracted to Keller's brand says, "I was attracted to Keller's brand of evangelicalism." That's the term she of evangelicalism." That's the term she of evangelicalism." That's the term she uses. And then she talks about like what uses. And then she talks about like what uses. And then she talks about like what that brand is. And she was like, uh, you that brand is. And she was like, uh, you that brand is. And she was like, uh, you know, intellectual, sophisticated. But know, intellectual, sophisticated. But know, intellectual, sophisticated. But she said, "When I signed up for Killer's she said, "When I signed up for Killer's she said, "When I signed up for Killer's brand of evangelism," she said, "You brand of evangelism," she said, "You brand of evangelism," she said, "You know, I was signing up for that that know, I was signing up for that that know, I was signing up for that that whole thing I just mentioned." But she whole thing I just mentioned." But she whole thing I just mentioned." But she said, "I also appreciate that from the said, "I also appreciate that from the said, "I also appreciate that from the pulpit, he never talked about pulpit, he never talked about pulpit, he never talked about homosexuality or abortion, etc. as a homosexuality or abortion, etc. as a homosexuality or abortion, etc. as a sin." And then I only had to find years sin." And then I only had to find years sin." And then I only had to find years down the road that that's what their down the road that that's what their down the road that that's what their church thought about these things. And I church thought about these things. And I church thought about these things. And I just I wonder about that. I'm not saying just I wonder about that. I'm not saying just I wonder about that. I'm not saying that that's her account is absolutely that that's her account is absolutely that that's her account is absolutely true. But if it is, I do have questions true. But if it is, I do have questions true. But if it is, I do have questions about that methodology. And not only do about that methodology. And not only do about that methodology. And not only do I think there's dangers there that you I think there's dangers there that you I think there's dangers there that you might hide away from offensive truths might hide away from offensive truths might hide away from offensive truths that are clear in scripture, I think you that are clear in scripture, I think you that are clear in scripture, I think you will also there's a danger of really will also there's a danger of really will also there's a danger of really making people feel tricked on they're making people feel tricked on they're making people feel tricked on they're once they're brought in. Um and uh once they're brought in. Um and uh once they're brought in. Um and uh there's that and and I just do wonder if there's that and and I just do wonder if there's that and and I just do wonder if there's a place Yes. We need to avoid there's a place Yes. We need to avoid there's a place Yes. We need to avoid what was the term uh Colin used um uh oh what was the term uh Colin used um uh oh what was the term uh Colin used um uh oh I I I the term you used about uh pmics. Yeah.

the term you used about uh pmics. Yeah. the term you used about uh pmics. Yeah. Pimics is medicine and not food. And Pimics is medicine and not food. And Pimics is medicine and not food. And I've heard that trope elsewhere. And is I've heard that trope elsewhere. And is I've heard that trope elsewhere. And is but is there another category of just but is there another category of just but is there another category of just forthright speech that isn't necessarily forthright speech that isn't necessarily forthright speech that isn't necessarily pimics that there that also might be pimics that there that also might be pimics that there that also might be mythologically strategic but also just mythologically strategic but also just mythologically strategic but also just faithful. Um and so those are some of faithful. Um and so those are some of faithful. Um and so those are some of the challenges I push and he does from the challenges I push and he does from the challenges I push and he does from time to time do that. But if the time to time do that. But if the time to time do that. But if the Kirstston Powers story is also true, I Kirstston Powers story is also true, I Kirstston Powers story is also true, I think there are there are gaps there think there are there are gaps there think there are there are gaps there that we should consider. There are that we should consider. There are that we should consider. There are pitfalls there that are worth pitfalls there that are worth pitfalls there that are worth considering. considering. considering. So there you go. Those are my opening So there you go. Those are my opening So there you go. Those are my opening comments. [applause] Paul have a chance to respond to that Paul have a chance to respond to that and then James a chance to respond. and then James a chance to respond. and then James a chance to respond. >> Great. Okay. Um I mean one of the first >> Great. Okay. Um I mean one of the first >> Great. Okay. Um I mean one of the first books that I ever worked on in my career books that I ever worked on in my career books that I ever worked on in my career was called The Leadership Secrets of was called The Leadership Secrets of was called The Leadership Secrets of Billy Graham. It was a great Billy Graham. It was a great Billy Graham. It was a great introduction for me to the entire introduction for me to the entire introduction for me to the entire evangelical world that I didn't grow up evangelical world that I didn't grow up evangelical world that I didn't grow up in. Uh converted into but didn't grow up in. Uh converted into but didn't grow up in. Uh converted into but didn't grow up in. One of the things that I appreciated in. One of the things that I appreciated in. One of the things that I appreciated most about Billy Graham is I actually most about Billy Graham is I actually most about Billy Graham is I actually had responsibility for two chapters. Uh had responsibility for two chapters. Uh had responsibility for two chapters. Uh it turns out the Lord knew what was in it turns out the Lord knew what was in it turns out the Lord knew what was in my future. So the chapters were on Billy my future. So the chapters were on Billy my future. So the chapters were on Billy Graham's failures and his critics. Those Graham's failures and his critics. Those Graham's failures and his critics. Those are my two responsibilities.

are my two responsibilities. are my two responsibilities. And um Billy Graham is probably the most And um Billy Graham is probably the most And um Billy Graham is probably the most famous Christian in American history. Um famous Christian in American history. Um famous Christian in American history. Um one of the great evangelists of all one of the great evangelists of all one of the great evangelists of all time. And I don't think another time. And I don't think another time. And I don't think another religious figure in American history was religious figure in American history was religious figure in American history was more criticized. more criticized. more criticized. Widespread criticism of him and having Widespread criticism of him and having Widespread criticism of him and having made some mistakes, some of which he made some mistakes, some of which he made some mistakes, some of which he acknowledged, some of which he did not. acknowledged, some of which he did not. acknowledged, some of which he did not. Uh well, some of which he kind of knew Uh well, some of which he kind of knew Uh well, some of which he kind of knew were mistakes, like for example, he were mistakes, like for example, he were mistakes, like for example, he physically threw up when he found out physically threw up when he found out physically threw up when he found out about what Richard Nixon um had said and about what Richard Nixon um had said and about what Richard Nixon um had said and done, things like that because they'd done, things like that because they'd done, things like that because they'd been so close. and then others like been so close. and then others like been so close. and then others like things that he said about religious things that he said about religious things that he said about religious freedom in Russia, then the Soviet freedom in Russia, then the Soviet freedom in Russia, then the Soviet Union, things like that. Um, but the Union, things like that. Um, but the Union, things like that. Um, but the point was one of the things I point was one of the things I point was one of the things I appreciated most about him is his appreciated most about him is his appreciated most about him is his attitude toward his critics. Um, and at attitude toward his critics. Um, and at attitude toward his critics. Um, and at the same time also his willingness to go the same time also his willingness to go the same time also his willingness to go back and to recognize areas that he had back and to recognize areas that he had back and to recognize areas that he had where he'd made mistakes. Um, and one of where he'd made mistakes. Um, and one of where he'd made mistakes. Um, and one of the things that you saw remarked upon at the things that you saw remarked upon at the things that you saw remarked upon at his death, which you know wasn't that his death, which you know wasn't that his death, which you know wasn't that long ago, lay in state in the in the long ago, lay in state in the in the long ago, lay in state in the in the Capitol when President Trump was in Capitol when President Trump was in Capitol when President Trump was in office the first time. Um, they so much office the first time. Um, they so much office the first time. Um, they so much remarked on his personal humility.

remarked on his personal humility. remarked on his personal humility. And one of the things that enabled me to And one of the things that enabled me to And one of the things that enabled me to be able to write the book that I did was be able to write the book that I did was be able to write the book that I did was Tim's willingness to talk about how he Tim's willingness to talk about how he Tim's willingness to talk about how he did not have everything figured out. He did not have everything figured out. He did not have everything figured out. He didn't have all the answers. certainly didn't have all the answers. certainly didn't have all the answers. certainly for the future um had made mistakes. And for the future um had made mistakes. And for the future um had made mistakes. And what also stood out is that I don't know what also stood out is that I don't know what also stood out is that I don't know if people understand how uncommon that if people understand how uncommon that if people understand how uncommon that is. That is not common especially for is. That is not common especially for is. That is not common especially for somebody who is at the pinnacle of their somebody who is at the pinnacle of their somebody who is at the pinnacle of their career achievements. Um I mean I was career achievements. Um I mean I was career achievements. Um I mean I was just thinking about the question of what just thinking about the question of what just thinking about the question of what are we talking about when we're talking are we talking about when we're talking are we talking about when we're talking about Tim Keller's legacy? Um and this about Tim Keller's legacy? Um and this about Tim Keller's legacy? Um and this will be for future generations. will be for future generations. will be for future generations. Certainly not, you know, for me to be Certainly not, you know, for me to be Certainly not, you know, for me to be able to adjudicate as somebody who able to adjudicate as somebody who able to adjudicate as somebody who worked uh closely with him. Uh but when worked uh closely with him. Uh but when worked uh closely with him. Uh but when you consider, you know, James talked you consider, you know, James talked you consider, you know, James talked about a number of the different aspects about a number of the different aspects about a number of the different aspects and and highlighting a lot of wonderful and and highlighting a lot of wonderful and and highlighting a lot of wonderful specifics of things that he appreciated. specifics of things that he appreciated. specifics of things that he appreciated. But um I mean we can expand this to this But um I mean we can expand this to this But um I mean we can expand this to this Christ-c centered preaching in the Voss Christ-c centered preaching in the Voss Christ-c centered preaching in the Voss tradition, reviving and con uh tradition, reviving and con uh tradition, reviving and con uh perpetuating that. Um I think the number perpetuating that. Um I think the number perpetuating that. Um I think the number one thing that he was known for or will one thing that he was known for or will one thing that he was known for or will be known for is a movement of church be known for is a movement of church be known for is a movement of church planting in global cities to the point planting in global cities to the point planting in global cities to the point where you can virtually not go to a where you can virtually not go to a where you can virtually not go to a major city around the world and and miss major city around the world and and miss major city around the world and and miss a church that he had helped to start a church that he had helped to start a church that he had helped to start through redeemer city to city. Um he through redeemer city to city. Um he through redeemer city to city. Um he also was instrumental in building a also was instrumental in building a also was instrumental in building a global church network with one of the global church network with one of the global church network with one of the largest Christian websites in the world

largest Christian websites in the world largest Christian websites in the world which is of course the gospel coalition which is of course the gospel coalition which is of course the gospel coalition there. um instrumental in expanding the there. um instrumental in expanding the there. um instrumental in expanding the PCA beyond the southeast. He was not the PCA beyond the southeast. He was not the PCA beyond the southeast. He was not the only person who did that, but he was the only person who did that, but he was the only person who did that, but he was the most influential person who did that. Um most influential person who did that. Um most influential person who did that. Um I don't think many of his critics give I don't think many of his critics give I don't think many of his critics give him credit for being one of the key him credit for being one of the key him credit for being one of the key figures in opposing the rise of figures in opposing the rise of figures in opposing the rise of egalitarianism, but he was as a disciple egalitarianism, but he was as a disciple egalitarianism, but he was as a disciple um of Elizabeth Elliott uh his professor um of Elizabeth Elliott uh his professor um of Elizabeth Elliott uh his professor at Gordon Conwell. Um I went back in my at Gordon Conwell. Um I went back in my at Gordon Conwell. Um I went back in my book and I had done a study of the book and I had done a study of the book and I had done a study of the writings of some of his egalitarian writings of some of his egalitarian writings of some of his egalitarian professors that he very publicly um and professors that he very publicly um and professors that he very publicly um and boldly rebuked. And those arguments were boldly rebuked. And those arguments were boldly rebuked. And those arguments were worse than almost any I mean things like worse than almost any I mean things like worse than almost any I mean things like well Paul was wrong about slavery so well Paul was wrong about slavery so well Paul was wrong about slavery so he's wrong about women. Those are the he's wrong about women. Those are the he's wrong about women. Those are the kinds of arguments he was being taught kinds of arguments he was being taught kinds of arguments he was being taught in the rise of evangelical feminism in in the rise of evangelical feminism in in the rise of evangelical feminism in the 1970s. the 1970s. the 1970s. Um, you know, we we could of course talk Um, you know, we we could of course talk Um, you know, we we could of course talk about writing the most effective about writing the most effective about writing the most effective apologetic works of his generation, apologetic works of his generation, apologetic works of his generation, maybe at least since CS Lewis and just maybe at least since CS Lewis and just maybe at least since CS Lewis and just easily take for granted building easily take for granted building easily take for granted building churches in Manhattan from almost their churches in Manhattan from almost their churches in Manhattan from almost their entire disappearance, the 20th century.

entire disappearance, the 20th century. entire disappearance, the 20th century. A lot of people don't realize that when A lot of people don't realize that when A lot of people don't realize that when you look through evangelical history, you look through evangelical history, you look through evangelical history, New York City was the capital of New York City was the capital of New York City was the capital of evangelicalism in the in the 1800s. And evangelicalism in the in the 1800s. And evangelicalism in the in the 1800s. And by the 1900s, even by the 1920s, by the 1900s, even by the 1920s, by the 1900s, even by the 1920s, Protestantism had almost disappeared Protestantism had almost disappeared Protestantism had almost disappeared apart from a few belleaguered outposts apart from a few belleaguered outposts apart from a few belleaguered outposts in Manhattan. And that is absolutely not in Manhattan. And that is absolutely not in Manhattan. And that is absolutely not the case today. the case today. the case today. So the point is when you consider So the point is when you consider So the point is when you consider somebody who's had that kind of somebody who's had that kind of somebody who's had that kind of influence, that kind of legacy that you influence, that kind of legacy that you influence, that kind of legacy that you haven't even we've hardly even scratched haven't even we've hardly even scratched haven't even we've hardly even scratched the surface of, you don't expect that to the surface of, you don't expect that to the surface of, you don't expect that to be the kind of person who welcomes be the kind of person who welcomes be the kind of person who welcomes criticism, handles it with any measure criticism, handles it with any measure criticism, handles it with any measure of humility. is willing to learn from of humility. is willing to learn from of humility. is willing to learn from mistakes, to grow, to change, to borrow mistakes, to grow, to change, to borrow mistakes, to grow, to change, to borrow from James, to evolve even in some of from James, to evolve even in some of from James, to evolve even in some of his perspectives, and to become more his perspectives, and to become more his perspectives, and to become more expansive over time. Usually what expansive over time. Usually what expansive over time. Usually what happens is the Christian leader when happens is the Christian leader when happens is the Christian leader when they become more influential, they they become more influential, they they become more influential, they become more insular. They shrink um in become more insular. They shrink um in become more insular. They shrink um in part because of what James talked about, part because of what James talked about, part because of what James talked about, the celebrity culture, which brings a the celebrity culture, which brings a the celebrity culture, which brings a lot of criticism that makes a lot of lot of criticism that makes a lot of lot of criticism that makes a lot of people say, "I'm only going to surround people say, "I'm only going to surround people say, "I'm only going to surround myself with sick fans." And then when it myself with sick fans." And then when it myself with sick fans." And then when it comes time for them to work on books, comes time for them to work on books, comes time for them to work on books, they instruct their biographers, you they instruct their biographers, you they instruct their biographers, you can't say anything negative about me.

can't say anything negative about me. can't say anything negative about me. And then we publish those books and And then we publish those books and And then we publish those books and they're widely celebrated and widely they're widely celebrated and widely they're widely celebrated and widely read. They become heographies. read. They become heographies. read. They become heographies. None of that was the case with Tim. And None of that was the case with Tim. And None of that was the case with Tim. And I think it's one reason that like Billy I think it's one reason that like Billy I think it's one reason that like Billy Graham, what was ultimately celebrated Graham, what was ultimately celebrated Graham, what was ultimately celebrated as his legacy at the end of his life was as his legacy at the end of his life was as his legacy at the end of his life was his individual character. And the people his individual character. And the people his individual character. And the people who were speaking and testifying to it who were speaking and testifying to it who were speaking and testifying to it were people like his children, like his were people like his children, like his were people like his children, like his boys, like his wife, like his best boys, like his wife, like his best boys, like his wife, like his best friend that he led to the Lord back in friend that he led to the Lord back in friend that he led to the Lord back in Hopewell, Virginia, wandering in for Hopewell, Virginia, wandering in for Hopewell, Virginia, wandering in for some marriage counseling after he had some marriage counseling after he had some marriage counseling after he had been divorced. I just think, isn't it? I been divorced. I just think, isn't it? I been divorced. I just think, isn't it? I mean, when you when you have a funeral mean, when you when you have a funeral mean, when you when you have a funeral in such a prominent New York City in such a prominent New York City in such a prominent New York City church, um, you think, well, that might church, um, you think, well, that might church, um, you think, well, that might be it's kind of a showy thing, but then be it's kind of a showy thing, but then be it's kind of a showy thing, but then you realize there's no other place that you realize there's no other place that you realize there's no other place that can fit them except for one of the can fit them except for one of the can fit them except for one of the baseball stadiums or Madison Square baseball stadiums or Madison Square baseball stadiums or Madison Square Garden. That's why they host it there. Garden. That's why they host it there. Garden. That's why they host it there. But how many other major figures at the But how many other major figures at the But how many other major figures at the end of their life would have brought in end of their life would have brought in end of their life would have brought in a parade of just other major religious a parade of just other major religious a parade of just other major religious figures to testify to their greatness?

figures to testify to their greatness? figures to testify to their greatness? And that's not at all the case of what And that's not at all the case of what And that's not at all the case of what happened there. So, I think part of what happened there. So, I think part of what happened there. So, I think part of what makes it easy for us to even discuss makes it easy for us to even discuss makes it easy for us to even discuss Keller's legacy is the fact that he was Keller's legacy is the fact that he was Keller's legacy is the fact that he was himself so open to learning, changing, himself so open to learning, changing, himself so open to learning, changing, not his core beliefs, but growing, not his core beliefs, but growing, not his core beliefs, but growing, evolving, and um and taking his critics evolving, and um and taking his critics evolving, and um and taking his critics seriously, as he often commented. Um I seriously, as he often commented. Um I seriously, as he often commented. Um I mean, if your critics really knew what mean, if your critics really knew what mean, if your critics really knew what was in your heart, um it'd be so much was in your heart, um it'd be so much was in your heart, um it'd be so much worse. And that's what grace is is all worse. And that's what grace is is all worse. And that's what grace is is all about. Um, we can get into some more about. Um, we can get into some more about. Um, we can get into some more specifics on here if they're if they're specifics on here if they're if they're specifics on here if they're if they're helpful here, but one just to mention helpful here, but one just to mention helpful here, but one just to mention related to the um to the parenting or to related to the um to the parenting or to related to the um to the parenting or to the children one that's a it's a good the children one that's a it's a good the children one that's a it's a good observation. I think there's two points observation. I think there's two points observation. I think there's two points in particular that are relevant there. in particular that are relevant there. in particular that are relevant there. One is primarily the New York City One is primarily the New York City One is primarily the New York City Manhattan context. Of course, uh, Manhattan context. Of course, uh, Manhattan context. Of course, uh, singleness. I mean, uh, this is in my singleness. I mean, uh, this is in my singleness. I mean, uh, this is in my book, but the only time that Tim ever book, but the only time that Tim ever book, but the only time that Tim ever did a wedding during a service, uh, was did a wedding during a service, uh, was did a wedding during a service, uh, was when he preached what I think was his when he preached what I think was his when he preached what I think was his most famous message ever, the girl most famous message ever, the girl most famous message ever, the girl nobody wanted, which is an interesting nobody wanted, which is an interesting nobody wanted, which is an interesting wedding homaly, uh, text to take up of wedding homaly, uh, text to take up of wedding homaly, uh, text to take up of Rachel and Leah. Um, and, uh, but his Rachel and Leah. Um, and, uh, but his Rachel and Leah. Um, and, uh, but his concern was, how do you do a wedding concern was, how do you do a wedding concern was, how do you do a wedding service that acknowledges that the vast service that acknowledges that the vast service that acknowledges that the vast majority here are single? Incorporates majority here are single? Incorporates majority here are single? Incorporates them. It's related to also the fact that them. It's related to also the fact that them. It's related to also the fact that Tim and Kathy were often asked,"Wh Tim and Kathy were often asked,"Wh Tim and Kathy were often asked,"Wh didn't you write a book on parenting?

didn't you write a book on parenting? didn't you write a book on parenting? Your book on marriage is so great." Um, Your book on marriage is so great." Um, Your book on marriage is so great." Um, another one of those legacies. It's another one of those legacies. It's another one of those legacies. It's probably still the best one that you can probably still the best one that you can probably still the best one that you can find. And at the same time, why don't find. And at the same time, why don't find. And at the same time, why don't you write a book on parenting? The you write a book on parenting? The you write a book on parenting? The response was, "We don't think we were response was, "We don't think we were response was, "We don't think we were very good parents." And we also find very good parents." And we also find very good parents." And we also find that our friends that we went to that our friends that we went to that our friends that we went to seminary with, they were very close with seminary with, they were very close with seminary with, they were very close with their seminary friends throughout their their seminary friends throughout their their seminary friends throughout their lives. Some of our so many friends were lives. Some of our so many friends were lives. Some of our so many friends were amazing parents and their children did amazing parents and their children did amazing parents and their children did not turn out well. We were not great not turn out well. We were not great not turn out well. We were not great parents and our children did turn out parents and our children did turn out parents and our children did turn out well. They said you do not want to give well. They said you do not want to give well. They said you do not want to give the impression that if you parenting is the impression that if you parenting is the impression that if you parenting is an out input output basis. There's a an out input output basis. There's a an out input output basis. There's a mystery that's involved. There are still mystery that's involved. There are still mystery that's involved. There are still principles. I still would have liked to principles. I still would have liked to principles. I still would have liked to know those principles from them. But know those principles from them. But know those principles from them. But even as their friends acknowledged, no, even as their friends acknowledged, no, even as their friends acknowledged, no, they weren't the best parents. they weren't the best parents. they weren't the best parents. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Again, not in a like in a sinful way, Again, not in a like in a sinful way, Again, not in a like in a sinful way, but just some people are more but just some people are more but just some people are more predisposed to it than others. So, just predisposed to it than others. So, just predisposed to it than others. So, just one kind of uh minor way of building on one kind of uh minor way of building on one kind of uh minor way of building on what James was talking about.