How to Save Western Civilization with Allen Guelzo [Gospelbound - Ep. 184]

It means that when you start taking It means that when you start taking things for granted, that's when they things for granted, that's when they things for granted, that's when they start to slip away because that's when start to slip away because that's when start to slip away because that's when you have ceased to put a value on them. you have ceased to put a value on them. you have ceased to put a value on them. Not because you don't value them, it's Not because you don't value them, it's Not because you don't value them, it's simply because it hasn't occurred to you simply because it hasn't occurred to you simply because it hasn't occurred to you that you need to. Is there a fate worse than condemnation? Is there a fate worse than condemnation? Yes, say Alan Gelzo and James Henkins in Yes, say Alan Gelzo and James Henkins in Yes, say Alan Gelzo and James Henkins in their new textbook, The Golden Thread: A their new textbook, The Golden Thread: A their new textbook, The Golden Thread: A History of the Western Tradition, Volume History of the Western Tradition, Volume History of the Western Tradition, Volume Two, The Modern and Contemporary West. Two, The Modern and Contemporary West. Two, The Modern and Contemporary West. Worse than everyone hating you is Worse than everyone hating you is Worse than everyone hating you is actually no one remembering you. Now, actually no one remembering you. Now, actually no one remembering you. Now, right now for Western civilization, the right now for Western civilization, the right now for Western civilization, the former is leading to the latter. The former is leading to the latter. The former is leading to the latter. The lack of remembering into the the hating, lack of remembering into the the hating, lack of remembering into the the hating, having been widely condemned as having been widely condemned as having been widely condemned as oppressive, imperialist, colonizing, and oppressive, imperialist, colonizing, and oppressive, imperialist, colonizing, and appropriating Western civilization is appropriating Western civilization is appropriating Western civilization is sometimes not even taught, let alone sometimes not even taught, let alone sometimes not even taught, let alone celebrated for producing the moral, celebrated for producing the moral, celebrated for producing the moral, technological, political, economic, and technological, political, economic, and technological, political, economic, and lifestyle achievements that give shape lifestyle achievements that give shape lifestyle achievements that give shape to our world. and the golden thread to our world. and the golden thread to our world. and the golden thread helps in remembering and teaching helps in remembering and teaching helps in remembering and teaching without ignoring the failures and without ignoring the failures and without ignoring the failures and shortcomings of western civilization.

shortcomings of western civilization. shortcomings of western civilization. The textbook collaborators GZO and The textbook collaborators GZO and The textbook collaborators GZO and Henkins have been acquainted for more Henkins have been acquainted for more Henkins have been acquainted for more than 50 years. Henkins wrote volume 1 than 50 years. Henkins wrote volume 1 than 50 years. Henkins wrote volume 1 previously published and GZO has written previously published and GZO has written previously published and GZO has written this volume two. Uh GZO is the Thomas W. this volume two. Uh GZO is the Thomas W. this volume two. Uh GZO is the Thomas W. Smith distinguished research scholar and Smith distinguished research scholar and Smith distinguished research scholar and director of the James Madison programs director of the James Madison programs director of the James Madison programs initiative on politics and statesmanship initiative on politics and statesmanship initiative on politics and statesmanship at Princeton University. Uh Dr. Gellzo, at Princeton University. Uh Dr. Gellzo, at Princeton University. Uh Dr. Gellzo, the longtime favorite writer of mine, the longtime favorite writer of mine, the longtime favorite writer of mine, not least for his work on the American not least for his work on the American not least for his work on the American Civil War and Abraham Lincoln. You can Civil War and Abraham Lincoln. You can Civil War and Abraham Lincoln. You can see him if you're watching in the back see him if you're watching in the back see him if you're watching in the back over the shoulder, the portrait for over the shoulder, the portrait for over the shoulder, the portrait for which Dr. Go last appeared on this which Dr. Go last appeared on this which Dr. Go last appeared on this podcast, Gospel Bound, in 2024. And I'm podcast, Gospel Bound, in 2024. And I'm podcast, Gospel Bound, in 2024. And I'm honored to host him again as we honored to host him again as we honored to host him again as we commemorate the 250th anniversary of the commemorate the 250th anniversary of the commemorate the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States, one of founding of the United States, one of founding of the United States, one of the hinge points in Western civilization the hinge points in Western civilization the hinge points in Western civilization in that memorable, amazing year of 1776. in that memorable, amazing year of 1776. in that memorable, amazing year of 1776. Dr. GZO, thank you for joining me again Dr. GZO, thank you for joining me again Dr. GZO, thank you for joining me again on Gospel Bound. on Gospel Bound. on Gospel Bound. >> Well, it's good to be back again and to >> Well, it's good to be back again and to >> Well, it's good to be back again and to once again open the windows into uh the once again open the windows into uh the once again open the windows into uh the subject and the exploration of the subject and the exploration of the subject and the exploration of the golden thread of Western civilization golden thread of Western civilization golden thread of Western civilization and perhaps a few other things that and perhaps a few other things that and perhaps a few other things that we'll have occasion to talk about.

we'll have occasion to talk about. we'll have occasion to talk about. >> Absolutely. So if I if I walked down the >> Absolutely. So if I if I walked down the >> Absolutely. So if I if I walked down the street and I asked 10 neighbors, all of street and I asked 10 neighbors, all of street and I asked 10 neighbors, all of whom educated, at least at a college whom educated, at least at a college whom educated, at least at a college level, if I asked them to define Western level, if I asked them to define Western level, if I asked them to define Western civilization, civilization, civilization, I'm actually not sure I'd get any I'm actually not sure I'd get any I'm actually not sure I'd get any answers at this point, let alone answers at this point, let alone answers at this point, let alone anything that's consistent. So I'm I'm anything that's consistent. So I'm I'm anything that's consistent. So I'm I'm wondering, how do we work toward a wondering, how do we work toward a wondering, how do we work toward a commonly held and commonly known commonly held and commonly known commonly held and commonly known definition for Western civilization? definition for Western civilization? definition for Western civilization? Part of it is the result of a lack of Part of it is the result of a lack of Part of it is the result of a lack of educational initiative. We don't teach educational initiative. We don't teach educational initiative. We don't teach Western civilization as we once did Western civilization as we once did Western civilization as we once did within living memory. We did. So this is within living memory. We did. So this is within living memory. We did. So this is a fairly recent development. But it does a fairly recent development. But it does a fairly recent development. But it does mean that in large measure people can't mean that in large measure people can't mean that in large measure people can't give you that definition, can't talk give you that definition, can't talk give you that definition, can't talk about Western civilization because they about Western civilization because they about Western civilization because they simply don't know what it is. The other simply don't know what it is. The other simply don't know what it is. The other thing that inhibits people is that they thing that inhibits people is that they thing that inhibits people is that they take it for granted. It's the take it for granted. It's the take it for granted. It's the environment in which they've always environment in which they've always environment in which they've always lived. It is a set of principles and lived. It is a set of principles and lived. It is a set of principles and practices. It is a wealth of thinking of practices. It is a wealth of thinking of practices. It is a wealth of thinking of art of music that we don't really ask art of music that we don't really ask art of music that we don't really ask ourselves a question. Where did this ourselves a question. Where did this ourselves a question. Where did this come from?

come from? come from? And that in itself, the very fact that And that in itself, the very fact that And that in itself, the very fact that you wake up one morning and you realize you wake up one morning and you realize you wake up one morning and you realize you've been taking something, you've you've been taking something, you've you've been taking something, you've been taking your entire atmosphere been taking your entire atmosphere been taking your entire atmosphere for granted, that that's always going to for granted, that that's always going to for granted, that that's always going to be a surprise. But it means that when be a surprise. But it means that when be a surprise. But it means that when you start taking things for granted, you start taking things for granted, you start taking things for granted, that's when they start to slip away that's when they start to slip away that's when they start to slip away because that's when you have ceased to because that's when you have ceased to because that's when you have ceased to put a value on them. Not because you put a value on them. Not because you put a value on them. Not because you don't value them, it's simply because it don't value them, it's simply because it don't value them, it's simply because it hasn't occurred to you that you need to. hasn't occurred to you that you need to. hasn't occurred to you that you need to. And I think in large measure Golden And I think in large measure Golden And I think in large measure Golden Thread is an effort to address both of Thread is an effort to address both of Thread is an effort to address both of these. First of all, it's an effort to these. First of all, it's an effort to these. First of all, it's an effort to address the criticism and I think a address the criticism and I think a address the criticism and I think a remarkably unfair one that Western remarkably unfair one that Western remarkably unfair one that Western civilization somehow represents a a civilization somehow represents a a civilization somehow represents a a negative a toxic influence in human negative a toxic influence in human negative a toxic influence in human history. history. history. And we also want to address this other And we also want to address this other And we also want to address this other question about taking it for granted, question about taking it for granted, question about taking it for granted, just not knowing what's there or what it just not knowing what's there or what it just not knowing what's there or what it is and never really having been called is and never really having been called is and never really having been called upon to explore it. So both of those are upon to explore it. So both of those are upon to explore it. So both of those are you might call them our targets in the you might call them our targets in the you might call them our targets in the golden thread. We want to say that golden thread. We want to say that golden thread. We want to say that western civilization when you take the western civilization when you take the western civilization when you take the phenomenon if we can call it that. When phenomenon if we can call it that. When phenomenon if we can call it that. When you take the phenomenon of this western you take the phenomenon of this western you take the phenomenon of this western tradition as a whole it has remarkable a tradition as a whole it has remarkable a tradition as a whole it has remarkable a remarkable wealth of contributions to remarkable wealth of contributions to remarkable wealth of contributions to make. It is a little bit I mean the make. It is a little bit I mean the make. It is a little bit I mean the image that comes to my mind is Edmund image that comes to my mind is Edmund image that comes to my mind is Edmund Dantes in the count of Monte Cristo

Dantes in the count of Monte Cristo Dantes in the count of Monte Cristo discovering this extraordinary treasure discovering this extraordinary treasure discovering this extraordinary treasure on this island that his friend the aeria on this island that his friend the aeria on this island that his friend the aeria had described to him and suddenly I mean had described to him and suddenly I mean had described to him and suddenly I mean this is he has he it is wealth beyond this is he has he it is wealth beyond this is he has he it is wealth beyond his imagining which of course he's going his imagining which of course he's going his imagining which of course he's going to use not always in the best way to use not always in the best way to use not always in the best way but even when he uses it in the in the but even when he uses it in the in the but even when he uses it in the in the worst way which he does to fund revenge. worst way which he does to fund revenge. worst way which he does to fund revenge. He comes to the conclusion at the end He comes to the conclusion at the end He comes to the conclusion at the end that in fact he he has done wrong. He that in fact he he has done wrong. He that in fact he he has done wrong. He understands and says in the closing of understands and says in the closing of understands and says in the closing of the count of Monte Crystal that the two the count of Monte Crystal that the two the count of Monte Crystal that the two most important pieces of advice he can most important pieces of advice he can most important pieces of advice he can give to people wait and hope. He was a give to people wait and hope. He was a give to people wait and hope. He was a person, he admits, who for a moment person, he admits, who for a moment person, he admits, who for a moment thought that he had the privilege of thought that he had the privilege of thought that he had the privilege of making the judgment of God on others and making the judgment of God on others and making the judgment of God on others and he has learned otherwise. In a way, the he has learned otherwise. In a way, the he has learned otherwise. In a way, the way the the approach we take to Western way the the approach we take to Western way the the approach we take to Western civilization is a little bit like that civilization is a little bit like that civilization is a little bit like that because yes, we have discovered a because yes, we have discovered a because yes, we have discovered a treasure. It's a treasure which has from treasure. It's a treasure which has from treasure. It's a treasure which has from time to time been misused.

time to time been misused. time to time been misused. But even in the misuse of it, we have But even in the misuse of it, we have But even in the misuse of it, we have learned tremendous and valuable lessons learned tremendous and valuable lessons learned tremendous and valuable lessons about ourselves. Those are not things to about ourselves. Those are not things to about ourselves. Those are not things to be discounted and waved away as of no be discounted and waved away as of no be discounted and waved away as of no consequence or of illconsequence. To the consequence or of illconsequence. To the consequence or of illconsequence. To the contrary, uh these these are things that contrary, uh these these are things that contrary, uh these these are things that make us what we are and have done make us what we are and have done make us what we are and have done tremendous amounts of good for us and tremendous amounts of good for us and tremendous amounts of good for us and for others. So like Edmund Dantes with for others. So like Edmund Dantes with for others. So like Edmund Dantes with that treasure we we want we want to that treasure we we want we want to that treasure we we want we want to acknowledge yes mistakes that are made acknowledge yes mistakes that are made acknowledge yes mistakes that are made but we also want to acknowledge that it but we also want to acknowledge that it but we also want to acknowledge that it is after all a treasure. The other is after all a treasure. The other is after all a treasure. The other aspect of that is we want to remind aspect of that is we want to remind aspect of that is we want to remind people who otherwise if they thought people who otherwise if they thought people who otherwise if they thought about it would agree and say yes western about it would agree and say yes western about it would agree and say yes western civilization a marvelous thing the civilization a marvelous thing the civilization a marvelous thing the entirety of the western tradition this entirety of the western tradition this entirety of the western tradition this is something that we live and breathe in is something that we live and breathe in is something that we live and breathe in and we and we want to value we're simply and we and we want to value we're simply and we and we want to value we're simply reminding people this is these are what reminding people this is these are what reminding people this is these are what the elements of of it are almost like the elements of of it are almost like the elements of of it are almost like having forgotten what the rules are in having forgotten what the rules are in having forgotten what the rules are in the baseball game and what we're doing the baseball game and what we're doing the baseball game and what we're doing is reminding people all right this is is reminding people all right this is is reminding people all right this is what baseball is like this is this is a what baseball is like this is this is a what baseball is like this is this is a bat. This is a ball. What you swing at, bat. This is a ball. What you swing at, bat. This is a ball. What you swing at, this is how you move from base to base.

this is how you move from base to base. this is how you move from base to base. And suddenly the whole game becomes fun, And suddenly the whole game becomes fun, And suddenly the whole game becomes fun, fun and more fun. We are reminding fun and more fun. We are reminding fun and more fun. We are reminding people, get out there and play the game. people, get out there and play the game. people, get out there and play the game. Get out the thing that we call Western Get out the thing that we call Western Get out the thing that we call Western civilization. Plunge into its civilization. Plunge into its civilization. Plunge into its literature, to its art, to its history. literature, to its art, to its history. literature, to its art, to its history. Because what you will do when you find Because what you will do when you find Because what you will do when you find there, you're going to find the same there, you're going to find the same there, you're going to find the same amount of pleasure and the same amount amount of pleasure and the same amount amount of pleasure and the same amount of character building that you get from of character building that you get from of character building that you get from the practice of a great sport like the practice of a great sport like the practice of a great sport like baseball. So, it's an analogy. It's only baseball. So, it's an analogy. It's only baseball. So, it's an analogy. It's only an analogy. an analogy. an analogy. >> I like it. >> I like it. >> I like it. >> But analogy, >> But analogy, >> But analogy, >> it communicates. >> it communicates. >> it communicates. How much of the decline of interest or How much of the decline of interest or How much of the decline of interest or certainly education in Western certainly education in Western certainly education in Western civilization is ironically connected to civilization is ironically connected to civilization is ironically connected to its success? especially visav the fall its success? especially visav the fall its success? especially visav the fall of communism. of communism. of communism. >> Success is what we all wish that we had >> Success is what we all wish that we had >> Success is what we all wish that we had until we get it and realize that there until we get it and realize that there until we get it and realize that there are prices to be paid for it. are prices to be paid for it. are prices to be paid for it. And in a sense, we have discovered And in a sense, we have discovered And in a sense, we have discovered something of that with Western something of that with Western something of that with Western civilization.

civilization. civilization. We celebrated, I remember very clearly We celebrated, I remember very clearly We celebrated, I remember very clearly celebrating what seemed to me at that celebrating what seemed to me at that celebrating what seemed to me at that moment between 1989 and 1991 moment between 1989 and 1991 moment between 1989 and 1991 like a dream come true. like a dream come true. like a dream come true. I I I can so clearly remember the news I I I can so clearly remember the news I I I can so clearly remember the news reports I was hearing over the car radio reports I was hearing over the car radio reports I was hearing over the car radio driving to and from school, driving to and from school, driving to and from school, the Berlin Wall coming down, the the the Berlin Wall coming down, the the the Berlin Wall coming down, the the opening of of of the Warsaw Pact, the opening of of of the Warsaw Pact, the opening of of of the Warsaw Pact, the all of that seemed like it was all of that seemed like it was all of that seemed like it was impossible. impossible. impossible. It could never I I I had no expectation It could never I I I had no expectation It could never I I I had no expectation I would ever live to see anything like I would ever live to see anything like I would ever live to see anything like that. And then it all crumbled almost that. And then it all crumbled almost that. And then it all crumbled almost overnight and then went from there overnight and then went from there overnight and then went from there finally even to the dissolution of of finally even to the dissolution of of finally even to the dissolution of of the Soviet Union. And we thought all the Soviet Union. And we thought all the Soviet Union. And we thought all right we have arrived as Francis right we have arrived as Francis right we have arrived as Francis Fukuyama said we have arrived at the at Fukuyama said we have arrived at the at Fukuyama said we have arrived at the at the end of the terminal point at the the end of the terminal point at the the end of the terminal point at the solution of of history. And of course we solution of of history. And of course we solution of of history. And of course we hadn't. We we had to listen to another hadn't. We we had to listen to another hadn't. We we had to listen to another voice and that was Samuel Huntington's voice and that was Samuel Huntington's voice and that was Samuel Huntington's reminding us that in fact there was reminding us that in fact there was reminding us that in fact there was another struggle that we had to face an another struggle that we had to face an another struggle that we had to face an even larger one. The question that was even larger one. The question that was even larger one. The question that was posed during the cold war years was posed during the cold war years was posed during the cold war years was within western civilization.

within western civilization. within western civilization. Suddenly we realized that there was now Suddenly we realized that there was now Suddenly we realized that there was now a challenge looming up over the horizon a challenge looming up over the horizon a challenge looming up over the horizon from outside the western tradition and from outside the western tradition and from outside the western tradition and which aimed to destroy that western which aimed to destroy that western which aimed to destroy that western tradition. And this was the clash of tradition. And this was the clash of tradition. And this was the clash of civilizations described by Samuel civilizations described by Samuel civilizations described by Samuel Huntington who ironically had been Huntington who ironically had been Huntington who ironically had been Francis Fukuyama's mentor. Francis Fukuyama's mentor. Francis Fukuyama's mentor. And now we we find ourselves immersed in And now we we find ourselves immersed in And now we we find ourselves immersed in what really is a great civilizational what really is a great civilizational what really is a great civilizational conflict. conflict. conflict. Are are we handling all the aspects of Are are we handling all the aspects of Are are we handling all the aspects of it properly and perfectly? No, we never it properly and perfectly? No, we never it properly and perfectly? No, we never have. That's not a surprise. have. That's not a surprise. have. That's not a surprise. What is surprising is we have suddenly What is surprising is we have suddenly What is surprising is we have suddenly had to reach around, to feel around, to had to reach around, to feel around, to had to reach around, to feel around, to grope around, to try to find what are grope around, to try to find what are grope around, to try to find what are the principles that set us apart as a the principles that set us apart as a the principles that set us apart as a civilization. civilization. civilization. And these principles, are we prepared And these principles, are we prepared And these principles, are we prepared really to defend them in a meaningful really to defend them in a meaningful really to defend them in a meaningful way? that has suddenly become the way? that has suddenly become the way? that has suddenly become the question of the hour. So if anything, question of the hour. So if anything, question of the hour. So if anything, the study, the the reappropriation, the the study, the the reappropriation, the the study, the the reappropriation, the revitalization revitalization revitalization of Western civilization has now become of Western civilization has now become of Western civilization has now become more empiric even than it was before more empiric even than it was before more empiric even than it was before 1989.

1989. 1989. And in a sense, I would like to see the And in a sense, I would like to see the And in a sense, I would like to see the golden thread be part of a golden thread be part of a golden thread be part of a revitalization, a reappropriation revitalization, a reappropriation revitalization, a reappropriation of what the western tradition has to of what the western tradition has to of what the western tradition has to offer. offer. offer. >> Yeah. talking here with Alan Gelzo, >> Yeah. talking here with Alan Gelzo, >> Yeah. talking here with Alan Gelzo, author of The Golden Thread: The History author of The Golden Thread: The History author of The Golden Thread: The History of the Western Tradition, Volume 2, The of the Western Tradition, Volume 2, The of the Western Tradition, Volume 2, The Modern and Contemporary West. Also, you Modern and Contemporary West. Also, you Modern and Contemporary West. Also, you can check out brand new Substack, The can check out brand new Substack, The can check out brand new Substack, The Golden Thread, where you can get more Golden Thread, where you can get more Golden Thread, where you can get more updates and applications of what we're updates and applications of what we're updates and applications of what we're talking about here as well. Um, Dr. GZO talking about here as well. Um, Dr. GZO talking about here as well. Um, Dr. GZO that question prompts or your that that question prompts or your that that question prompts or your that comment prompts another question which comment prompts another question which comment prompts another question which is why do you think the ongoing clash of is why do you think the ongoing clash of is why do you think the ongoing clash of civilization specifically with communist civilization specifically with communist civilization specifically with communist China as well as with radical Islam I China as well as with radical Islam I China as well as with radical Islam I think probably the two major threats think probably the two major threats think probably the two major threats that have supplanted the you know Soviet that have supplanted the you know Soviet that have supplanted the you know Soviet Union though Putin's Russia is still Union though Putin's Russia is still Union though Putin's Russia is still still there and and allied in both in in still there and and allied in both in in still there and and allied in both in in ways with both of those. Um, why do you ways with both of those. Um, why do you ways with both of those. Um, why do you think those conflicts think those conflicts think those conflicts have not engendered the same kind of have not engendered the same kind of have not engendered the same kind of rallying around Western civilization as rallying around Western civilization as rallying around Western civilization as perhaps the Cold War did, at least in perhaps the Cold War did, at least in perhaps the Cold War did, at least in terms of and I and I want to be clear, terms of and I and I want to be clear, terms of and I and I want to be clear, anybody think Cold War history knows anybody think Cold War history knows anybody think Cold War history knows there were plenty of voices from within there were plenty of voices from within there were plenty of voices from within the West who were on the communist side the West who were on the communist side the West who were on the communist side saying they're the ones who are really saying they're the ones who are really saying they're the ones who are really right and they're going to be the right and they're going to be the right and they're going to be the successors is part of why it was so successors is part of why it was so successors is part of why it was so surprising to us our own. I mean in the surprising to us our own. I mean in the surprising to us our own. I mean in the academy there was a lot of triumphalism academy there was a lot of triumphalism academy there was a lot of triumphalism about the Soviet Union in our own about the Soviet Union in our own about the Soviet Union in our own intelligence services there was a lot of

intelligence services there was a lot of intelligence services there was a lot of triumphalism around the around the triumphalism around the around the triumphalism around the around the Soviet Union so it really was a shock um Soviet Union so it really was a shock um Soviet Union so it really was a shock um both systems one of the principal both systems one of the principal both systems one of the principal features of this thing that Henkins and features of this thing that Henkins and features of this thing that Henkins and I call the western tradition I call the western tradition I call the western tradition has been a self-criticism a mechanism has been a self-criticism a mechanism has been a self-criticism a mechanism for self-criticism for self-criticism for self-criticism an introspection that asks us and an introspection that asks us and an introspection that asks us and interrogates us about the purity of our interrogates us about the purity of our interrogates us about the purity of our motives and the propriety of our motives and the propriety of our motives and the propriety of our results. results. results. Other civilizations don't have that Other civilizations don't have that Other civilizations don't have that mechanism. They at least they don't they mechanism. They at least they don't they mechanism. They at least they don't they h if they have it it's in a very h if they have it it's in a very h if they have it it's in a very attenuated fashion. attenuated fashion. attenuated fashion. But in the western tradition from the But in the western tradition from the But in the western tradition from the very beginning from the Old Testament very beginning from the Old Testament very beginning from the Old Testament from the Greeks from the Romans there from the Greeks from the Romans there from the Greeks from the Romans there has always been this lively sense of has always been this lively sense of has always been this lively sense of self-criticism of self-examination self-criticism of self-examination self-criticism of self-examination of asking are we really functioning of asking are we really functioning of asking are we really functioning according to the pattern that we aspire according to the pattern that we aspire according to the pattern that we aspire to. to. to. And the good part of that is that that And the good part of that is that that And the good part of that is that that self-criticism has always been an self-criticism has always been an self-criticism has always been an internal correcting mechanism internal correcting mechanism internal correcting mechanism when we have been tempted by when we have been tempted by when we have been tempted by circumstances or by or by circumstances or by or by circumstances or by or by misunderstanding of our own principles misunderstanding of our own principles misunderstanding of our own principles to behave in in a fashion for which to behave in in a fashion for which to behave in in a fashion for which there's no excuse. That self-correcting there's no excuse. That self-correcting there's no excuse. That self-correcting mechanism within Western civilization mechanism within Western civilization mechanism within Western civilization has been there to remind us, no, you're has been there to remind us, no, you're has been there to remind us, no, you're not living up to what you're doing. No, not living up to what you're doing. No, not living up to what you're doing. No, this particular policy, this particular this particular policy, this particular this particular policy, this particular initiative, this particular direction is initiative, this particular direction is initiative, this particular direction is a contradiction of the very things that

a contradiction of the very things that a contradiction of the very things that you profess to hold as as as important you profess to hold as as as important you profess to hold as as as important to your lives. That mechanism within the to your lives. That mechanism within the to your lives. That mechanism within the western tradition has been a a healthy western tradition has been a a healthy western tradition has been a a healthy one in time after time and situation one in time after time and situation one in time after time and situation after situation. But after situation. But after situation. But it can also it can also it can also act in some very negative ways, act in some very negative ways, act in some very negative ways, >> ways for sure. They can become fixation. >> ways for sure. They can become fixation. >> ways for sure. They can become fixation. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They can become the source of an almost >> They can become the source of an almost >> They can become the source of an almost an an almost suicidal embrace of the an an almost suicidal embrace of the an an almost suicidal embrace of the negative. negative. negative. And it happens that way not because the And it happens that way not because the And it happens that way not because the criticisms themselves criticisms themselves criticisms themselves have a standing of their own, but have a standing of their own, but have a standing of their own, but because something has gone wrong in the because something has gone wrong in the because something has gone wrong in the structure of the way we think on an structure of the way we think on an structure of the way we think on an everyday basis. It is so so to speak uh everyday basis. It is so so to speak uh everyday basis. It is so so to speak uh a kind of psychological a kind of psychological a kind of psychological that that we struggle with. And when we that that we struggle with. And when we that that we struggle with. And when we convert the self-criticism mechanism convert the self-criticism mechanism convert the self-criticism mechanism into this kind of obsession, into this kind of obsession, into this kind of obsession, then not only are we actually doing then not only are we actually doing then not only are we actually doing something that is psychologically something that is psychologically something that is psychologically unhealthy, but we're doing something unhealthy, but we're doing something unhealthy, but we're doing something which turns out in the long run to be which turns out in the long run to be which turns out in the long run to be potentially lethal to the survival of potentially lethal to the survival of potentially lethal to the survival of the civilization that we otherwise that the civilization that we otherwise that the civilization that we otherwise that we otherwise not only participate in but we otherwise not only participate in but we otherwise not only participate in but actually require in order to be actually require in order to be actually require in order to be selfizing in the first place.

selfizing in the first place. selfizing in the first place. >> Yeah. Well, in the book you list several >> Yeah. Well, in the book you list several >> Yeah. Well, in the book you list several reasons for an evaporation of confidence reasons for an evaporation of confidence reasons for an evaporation of confidence in Western civilization. World Wars, in Western civilization. World Wars, in Western civilization. World Wars, Dorman's theory of evolution, communism, Dorman's theory of evolution, communism, Dorman's theory of evolution, communism, Freudian psychology. Um, I used to Freudian psychology. Um, I used to Freudian psychology. Um, I used to debate this question with my professors debate this question with my professors debate this question with my professors in seminary. And I'm wondering do you in seminary. And I'm wondering do you in seminary. And I'm wondering do you see any of these factors standing above see any of these factors standing above see any of these factors standing above the rest? the rest? the rest? I think that there has been um a flux in I think that there has been um a flux in I think that there has been um a flux in the sense of which has had a predominant the sense of which has had a predominant the sense of which has had a predominant role and some of that is simply a role and some of that is simply a role and some of that is simply a response to to circumstances worldwide. response to to circumstances worldwide. response to to circumstances worldwide. I can't fix on any particular one of I can't fix on any particular one of I can't fix on any particular one of those and say this is the this is the those and say this is the this is the those and say this is the this is the tail that is wagging the dog. U tail that is wagging the dog. U tail that is wagging the dog. U certainly the impact of each of these certainly the impact of each of these certainly the impact of each of these kinds of questions has been enormous. kinds of questions has been enormous. kinds of questions has been enormous. When you when you stand back for When you when you stand back for When you when you stand back for instance and you look at the cost instance and you look at the cost instance and you look at the cost imposed by by two world wars. imposed by by two world wars. imposed by by two world wars. World wars which first of all involved World wars which first of all involved World wars which first of all involved this stupendous loss of life destruction this stupendous loss of life destruction this stupendous loss of life destruction of of property of of societies of of of property of of societies of of of property of of societies of political structures. I mean the first political structures. I mean the first political structures. I mean the first world war swept away empires and nations world war swept away empires and nations world war swept away empires and nations that had been on the map for century that had been on the map for century that had been on the map for century after century after century. Um that after century after century. Um that after century after century. Um that that interjected a destabilization that interjected a destabilization that interjected a destabilization people's expectations people's expectations people's expectations that had a a powerful downwards effect

that had a a powerful downwards effect that had a a powerful downwards effect and that was just the first world war. and that was just the first world war. and that was just the first world war. The other thing about the first world The other thing about the first world The other thing about the first world war that was a was a confidence killer war that was a was a confidence killer war that was a was a confidence killer was the notion that here we're civilized was the notion that here we're civilized was the notion that here we're civilized peoples. All right, the Germans. This is peoples. All right, the Germans. This is peoples. All right, the Germans. This is in this case the German Empire, Kaiser, in this case the German Empire, Kaiser, in this case the German Empire, Kaiser, Wilhelm II. All right, but still it's Wilhelm II. All right, but still it's Wilhelm II. All right, but still it's Germany. It's the Germany of Beethoven, Germany. It's the Germany of Beethoven, Germany. It's the Germany of Beethoven, of Bach, of Schopenhau, of Hegel, uh the of Bach, of Schopenhau, of Hegel, uh the of Bach, of Schopenhau, of Hegel, uh the great philosophers great philosophers great philosophers goes to war with France, the nation of goes to war with France, the nation of goes to war with France, the nation of of the the ideals of the French of the the ideals of the French of the the ideals of the French Revolution and to war with with England, Revolution and to war with with England, Revolution and to war with with England, this this great empire uh girdling the this this great empire uh girdling the this this great empire uh girdling the world. And these instead of these these world. And these instead of these these world. And these instead of these these uh European civilized western nations uh European civilized western nations uh European civilized western nations finding some way to cooperate and finding some way to cooperate and finding some way to cooperate and resolve their differences, they blunder resolve their differences, they blunder resolve their differences, they blunder into the most on the on the most into the most on the on the most into the most on the on the most ridiculous terms. They blunder into a ridiculous terms. They blunder into a ridiculous terms. They blunder into a four-year conflict that nobody really four-year conflict that nobody really four-year conflict that nobody really knows how to turn off. I mean after the knows how to turn off. I mean after the knows how to turn off. I mean after the after the first year of the war, less after the first year of the war, less after the first year of the war, less actually less than a year of the war, actually less than a year of the war, actually less than a year of the war, most of the nations involved in the most of the nations involved in the most of the nations involved in the first world war are fighting to avoid first world war are fighting to avoid first world war are fighting to avoid losing rather than than aiming to win losing rather than than aiming to win losing rather than than aiming to win because they at that point they realize because they at that point they realize because they at that point they realize there is no not going to be any such there is no not going to be any such there is no not going to be any such thing as victory. When you when you've thing as victory. When you when you've thing as victory. When you when you've got four years of behavior of that sort, got four years of behavior of that sort, got four years of behavior of that sort, what kind of conclusion are you supposed what kind of conclusion are you supposed what kind of conclusion are you supposed to draw? What conclusion would you draw to draw? What conclusion would you draw to draw? What conclusion would you draw from your neighbors in your neighborhood from your neighbors in your neighborhood from your neighbors in your neighborhood behaving like that on a ministry? You'd behaving like that on a ministry? You'd behaving like that on a ministry? You'd think they're all out of their minds.

think they're all out of their minds. think they're all out of their minds. Well, it's no surprise then that after Well, it's no surprise then that after Well, it's no surprise then that after the First World War, collectively the First World War, collectively the First World War, collectively speaking, that's the conclusion that speaking, that's the conclusion that speaking, that's the conclusion that that a number of people came to. And that a number of people came to. And that a number of people came to. And then on top of it, having gone through then on top of it, having gone through then on top of it, having gone through the the trauma of of that war, the the trauma of of that war, the the trauma of of that war, then we create a post-war environment then we create a post-war environment then we create a post-war environment which only makes things worse and then which only makes things worse and then which only makes things worse and then leads to the trigger that gets pulled leads to the trigger that gets pulled leads to the trigger that gets pulled for a second world war, which again for a second world war, which again for a second world war, which again destabilizes the nations. Uh the the destabilizes the nations. Uh the the destabilizes the nations. Uh the the wonder is that there is still something wonder is that there is still something wonder is that there is still something for Hankkins and I to write about 1945. for Hankkins and I to write about 1945. for Hankkins and I to write about 1945. So So So >> true. >> true. >> true. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh it the one the the wonder is that it it the one the the wonder is that it it the one the the wonder is that it didn't in fact just simply all fold its didn't in fact just simply all fold its didn't in fact just simply all fold its tent and collapse in on itself. Well, it tent and collapse in on itself. Well, it tent and collapse in on itself. Well, it did. There was more resilience in the did. There was more resilience in the did. There was more resilience in the Western tradition than even two world Western tradition than even two world Western tradition than even two world wars could do to it. But the wars could do to it. But the wars could do to it. But the intellectual damage when Ezra Pound says intellectual damage when Ezra Pound says intellectual damage when Ezra Pound says at the end of World War I, at the end of World War I, at the end of World War I, what was what was it worth?

what was what was it worth? what was what was it worth? What this was this was a war fought for What this was this was a war fought for What this was this was a war fought for a few dozen statues for some old books. a few dozen statues for some old books. a few dozen statues for some old books. Okay, he says really what is what is Okay, he says really what is what is Okay, he says really what is what is western civilization? This is his western civilization? This is his western civilization? This is his phrase. It's an old gone in the phrase. It's an old gone in the phrase. It's an old gone in the teeth. That's after the first world war. teeth. That's after the first world war. teeth. That's after the first world war. after the second world war Teodor Adorno after the second world war Teodor Adorno after the second world war Teodor Adorno says after Ashvitz says after Ashvitz says after Ashvitz nobody can write poetry. nobody can write poetry. nobody can write poetry. So just on those terms, two world wars So just on those terms, two world wars So just on those terms, two world wars that is a tremendous growth. The that is a tremendous growth. The that is a tremendous growth. The confidence, the self-confidence of the confidence, the self-confidence of the confidence, the self-confidence of the western tradition. Then you add these western tradition. Then you add these western tradition. Then you add these other factors that move in too other factors that move in too other factors that move in too >> the atomic age. How about >> the atomic age. How about >> the atomic age. How about >> well the atomic age s is ushered in >> well the atomic age s is ushered in >> well the atomic age s is ushered in >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. by uh by the Second World War by uh by the Second World War by uh by the Second World War >> and the the use of atomic weaponry >> and the the use of atomic weaponry >> and the the use of atomic weaponry >> because what is one of the more >> because what is one of the more >> because what is one of the more depressing aspects of this is we have depressing aspects of this is we have depressing aspects of this is we have these great advances in physics in the these great advances in physics in the these great advances in physics in the 20th century 20th century 20th century and we we move from through through and we we move from through through and we we move from through through through the close of the 19th and into through the close of the 19th and into through the close of the 19th and into the beginning of the 20th century. We the beginning of the 20th century. We the beginning of the 20th century. We have these remarkable achievements have these remarkable achievements have these remarkable achievements in in physics and and in chemistry. And in in physics and and in chemistry. And in in physics and and in chemistry. And what is the first use we put the what is the first use we put the what is the first use we put the killing of 10 million people? What is killing of 10 million people? What is killing of 10 million people? What is the first use we put atomic energy? Do the first use we put atomic energy? Do the first use we put atomic energy? Do we do we build nuclear plants to power we do we build nuclear plants to power we do we build nuclear plants to power societies? No. Now, the first use that

societies? No. Now, the first use that societies? No. Now, the first use that we are going to take that we are going we are going to take that we are going we are going to take that we are going the first use we're going to make of the first use we're going to make of the first use we're going to make of these is to create a weapon that is these is to create a weapon that is these is to create a weapon that is going to kill tens of thousands of of going to kill tens of thousands of of going to kill tens of thousands of of people and cast a shadow over all the people and cast a shadow over all the people and cast a shadow over all the lives we have led since lives we have led since lives we have led since >> still today. Absolutely. >> still today. Absolutely. >> still today. Absolutely. And you you look if this is what if this And you you look if this is what if this And you you look if this is what if this is what our vaunted science in the west is what our vaunted science in the west is what our vaunted science in the west is giving us well so much the worst for is giving us well so much the worst for is giving us well so much the worst for science that that is not an illogical science that that is not an illogical science that that is not an illogical conclusion and we have to confront the conclusion and we have to confront the conclusion and we have to confront the fact that in many respects the problems fact that in many respects the problems fact that in many respects the problems that we deal with the questioning the that we deal with the questioning the that we deal with the questioning the criticism of western civilization this criticism of western civilization this criticism of western civilization this in many ways these are things we have in many ways these are things we have in many ways these are things we have done to ourselves. done to ourselves. done to ourselves. So we balance we balance that again So we balance we balance that again So we balance we balance that again that selfcorrecting mechanism that selfcorrecting mechanism that selfcorrecting mechanism and what we see emerging out of it is is and what we see emerging out of it is is and what we see emerging out of it is is something of a struggle in our minds. something of a struggle in our minds. something of a struggle in our minds. We've seen terrible things happen within We've seen terrible things happen within We've seen terrible things happen within this western tradition.

this western tradition. this western tradition. Is our self-correcting mechanism Is our self-correcting mechanism Is our self-correcting mechanism up to the task of absorbing, up to the task of absorbing, up to the task of absorbing, answering, answering, answering, and moving ahead beyond that. And right and moving ahead beyond that. And right and moving ahead beyond that. And right now we are at a moment of civilization, now we are at a moment of civilization, now we are at a moment of civilization, civilizational self-questing, civilizational self-questing, civilizational self-questing, civilizational crisis. And what Henkins civilizational crisis. And what Henkins civilizational crisis. And what Henkins and I in in in very realistic terms are and I in in in very realistic terms are and I in in in very realistic terms are attempting to do is to say yes the attempting to do is to say yes the attempting to do is to say yes the resilience is there. Yes, we've made resilience is there. Yes, we've made resilience is there. Yes, we've made these dreadful mistakes but the these dreadful mistakes but the these dreadful mistakes but the resilience is there and the ideas the resilience is there and the ideas the resilience is there and the ideas the resilience serves are worth promoting resilience serves are worth promoting resilience serves are worth promoting and therefore we want to speak in the and therefore we want to speak in the and therefore we want to speak in the defense of these things. So in a way defense of these things. So in a way defense of these things. So in a way we we are we are a little a little bit we we are we are a little a little bit we we are we are a little a little bit like the criminal and the dog like the criminal and the dog like the criminal and the dog who who indeed is is guilty of some who who indeed is is guilty of some who who indeed is is guilty of some crimes. But we are also going to say crimes. But we are also going to say crimes. But we are also going to say that there are there are reasons behind that there are there are reasons behind that there are there are reasons behind this. There are motivations. There are this. There are motivations. There are this. There are motivations. There are possibilities. There are circumstances.

possibilities. There are circumstances. possibilities. There are circumstances. And we are going to plead with the judge And we are going to plead with the judge And we are going to plead with the judge which is to say people today and we're which is to say people today and we're which is to say people today and we're going to plead with the judge and say going to plead with the judge and say going to plead with the judge and say can we not move forward is there not a can we not move forward is there not a can we not move forward is there not a constructive way to do things and that constructive way to do things and that constructive way to do things and that is what these books are we're not we're is what these books are we're not we're is what these books are we're not we're not throwing a party understand this not throwing a party understand this not throwing a party understand this we're not throwing a party for for the we're not throwing a party for for the we're not throwing a party for for the western tradition we're not saying that western tradition we're not saying that western tradition we're not saying that all the brothers were valiant all the all the brothers were valiant all the all the brothers were valiant all the sisters were virtuous no no because that sisters were virtuous no no because that sisters were virtuous no no because that would be to interject an element of would be to interject an element of would be to interject an element of untruth truth untruth truth untruth truth that would compromise still more the that would compromise still more the that would compromise still more the story of western civilization. What we story of western civilization. What we story of western civilization. What we are asking people is to exercise that are asking people is to exercise that are asking people is to exercise that self-correcting mechanism but to self-correcting mechanism but to self-correcting mechanism but to exercise first of all to exercise it exercise first of all to exercise it exercise first of all to exercise it properly but secondly to realize that properly but secondly to realize that properly but secondly to realize that the very existence of that the very existence of that the very existence of that self-correcting and self-criticizing self-correcting and self-criticizing self-correcting and self-criticizing mechanism is an aspect is a gift of the mechanism is an aspect is a gift of the mechanism is an aspect is a gift of the western tradition. I'm uh currently in western tradition. I'm uh currently in western tradition. I'm uh currently in the process of writing my third book on the process of writing my third book on the process of writing my third book on this question. Um just to give a to go this question. Um just to give a to go this question. Um just to give a to go straight to my answer, I'm partial straight to my answer, I'm partial straight to my answer, I'm partial toward the world war answer um uh to toward the world war answer um uh to toward the world war answer um uh to that that question not to the exclusion that that question not to the exclusion that that question not to the exclusion of others because we can clearly see how of others because we can clearly see how of others because we can clearly see how for example Darwin's theories led for example Darwin's theories led for example Darwin's theories led straight into so much of what happened straight into so much of what happened straight into so much of what happened in both world wars. We also see how in both world wars. We also see how in both world wars. We also see how Freud's influence played out in both Freud's influence played out in both Freud's influence played out in both world wars. So that's not to exclude world wars. So that's not to exclude world wars. So that's not to exclude others and also the role that communism others and also the role that communism others and also the role that communism played in trigger obviously in both well played in trigger obviously in both well played in trigger obviously in both well both of them in their own ways as well.

both of them in their own ways as well. both of them in their own ways as well. So it's not to the exclude exclusion of So it's not to the exclude exclusion of So it's not to the exclude exclusion of others but I did did one book on others but I did did one book on others but I did did one book on theodysy the problem of evil related to theodysy the problem of evil related to theodysy the problem of evil related to elev and and the holocaust um and then a elev and and the holocaust um and then a elev and and the holocaust um and then a second one on cultural apologetics second one on cultural apologetics second one on cultural apologetics saying that basically the trauma saying that basically the trauma saying that basically the trauma narrative of the holocaust our inability narrative of the holocaust our inability narrative of the holocaust our inability to cope with what we were capable of to cope with what we were capable of to cope with what we were capable of doing to each other we've simply never doing to each other we've simply never doing to each other we've simply never been able to overcome and I think only been able to overcome and I think only been able to overcome and I think only what's happened in Ukraine and Israel what's happened in Ukraine and Israel what's happened in Ukraine and Israel and Iran on it's all still downstream and Iran on it's all still downstream and Iran on it's all still downstream from that. And then the current book from that. And then the current book from that. And then the current book that I'm writing is on two of the that I'm writing is on two of the that I'm writing is on two of the greatest recoverers of the western greatest recoverers of the western greatest recoverers of the western tradition of the 20th century, Winston tradition of the 20th century, Winston tradition of the 20th century, Winston Churchill and CS Lewis, and looking at Churchill and CS Lewis, and looking at Churchill and CS Lewis, and looking at them both through the crisis of the both them both through the crisis of the both them both through the crisis of the both world wars, but especially their rise to world wars, but especially their rise to world wars, but especially their rise to um particular prominence in the Second um particular prominence in the Second um particular prominence in the Second World War. Um now, your textbook is World War. Um now, your textbook is World War. Um now, your textbook is necessarily selective, but very necessarily selective, but very necessarily selective, but very substantial. You devote a two-page substantial. You devote a two-page substantial. You devote a two-page spread to Winston Churchill. Um I don't spread to Winston Churchill. Um I don't spread to Winston Churchill. Um I don't I don't think he you know in the grand I don't think he you know in the grand I don't think he you know in the grand western tradition I don't think he's the western tradition I don't think he's the western tradition I don't think he's the most influential figure. Um I think I most influential figure. Um I think I most influential figure. Um I think I mean mean mean >> he's only a politician.

>> he's only a politician. >> he's only a politician. >> Yeah, exactly. Only a politician. >> Yeah, exactly. Only a politician. >> Yeah, exactly. Only a politician. Ultimately you've got Jesus. I think you Ultimately you've got Jesus. I think you Ultimately you've got Jesus. I think you know the guy that you build the calendar know the guy that you build the calendar know the guy that you build the calendar around probably plays the big role in around probably plays the big role in around probably plays the big role in there. Um but at least in modern history there. Um but at least in modern history there. Um but at least in modern history I am not sure who could be regarded as I am not sure who could be regarded as I am not sure who could be regarded as more consequential uh than Churchill. more consequential uh than Churchill. more consequential uh than Churchill. You can disagree with that. Um, but I'm You can disagree with that. Um, but I'm You can disagree with that. Um, but I'm wondering, is that why he's become the wondering, is that why he's become the wondering, is that why he's become the focus of so much revisionist history focus of so much revisionist history focus of so much revisionist history lately on both the right and left as the lately on both the right and left as the lately on both the right and left as the arch villain of the 20th century? arch villain of the 20th century? arch villain of the 20th century? >> Oh, I think so. >> Oh, I think so. >> Oh, I think so. >> Okay. I think Churchill is a is a great >> Okay. I think Churchill is a is a great >> Okay. I think Churchill is a is a great stumbling block for the the traumatized, stumbling block for the the traumatized, stumbling block for the the traumatized, so to speak. And if you think of it in so to speak. And if you think of it in so to speak. And if you think of it in psychological terms that way, you can psychological terms that way, you can psychological terms that way, you can understand that someone who has been understand that someone who has been understand that someone who has been traumatized, traumatized, traumatized, let's say by an ugly childhood, an let's say by an ugly childhood, an let's say by an ugly childhood, an abusive parent, abusive parent, abusive parent, when they first meet someone else who is when they first meet someone else who is when they first meet someone else who is busy praising their parents, busy praising their parents, busy praising their parents, the the response is incredul. How can the the response is incredul. How can the the response is incredul. How can that possibly be? My experience was that possibly be? My experience was that possibly be? My experience was entirely this other way. And for many entirely this other way. And for many entirely this other way. And for many people today, the experience of the 20th people today, the experience of the 20th people today, the experience of the 20th century in particular century in particular century in particular was exactly that kind of trauma. So that was exactly that kind of trauma. So that was exactly that kind of trauma. So that when you hear a voice like that of when you hear a voice like that of when you hear a voice like that of Churchill Churchill Churchill saying, "No, no, no. We are going to saying, "No, no, no. We are going to saying, "No, no, no. We are going to defend this thing. We are going to defend this thing. We are going to defend this thing. We are going to defend our island. We will fight them in defend our island. We will fight them in defend our island. We will fight them in the hills. We will fight them on the the hills. We will fight them on the the hills. We will fight them on the landing places. We will fight them on landing places. We will fight them on landing places. We will fight them on the beaches. We will never surrender for

the beaches. We will never surrender for the beaches. We will never surrender for the sake of Christian civilization. the sake of Christian civilization. the sake of Christian civilization. for that for that people regard that for that for that people regard that for that for that people regard that with that same incredul. with that same incredul. with that same incredul. Don't you realize what what has Don't you realize what what has Don't you realize what what has happened? What don't you realize what we happened? What don't you realize what we happened? What don't you realize what we have gone through? Yeah, that's true. have gone through? Yeah, that's true. have gone through? Yeah, that's true. Except that here the trauma has taken Except that here the trauma has taken Except that here the trauma has taken over the trauma has become the over the trauma has become the over the trauma has become the substitute for the self-correcting substitute for the self-correcting substitute for the self-correcting mechanism. mechanism. mechanism. Curiously, Churchill himself was not Curiously, Churchill himself was not Curiously, Churchill himself was not unaware of the the problems and unaware of the the problems and unaware of the the problems and failures. He himself in responsible failures. He himself in responsible failures. He himself in responsible >> contributed to plenty of them. >> contributed to plenty of them. >> contributed to plenty of them. >> Clementine Churchill once said that she >> Clementine Churchill once said that she >> Clementine Churchill once said that she she she had been afraid after the dinels she she had been afraid after the dinels she she had been afraid after the dinels that everything that happened in the that everything that happened in the that everything that happened in the dinels was going to kill him. That he dinels was going to kill him. That he dinels was going to kill him. That he just couldn't go on. And and it probably just couldn't go on. And and it probably just couldn't go on. And and it probably was one of the most severe experiences was one of the most severe experiences was one of the most severe experiences that that he had to deal with in his that that he had to deal with in his that that he had to deal with in his life. It pretty well wrecked his life. It pretty well wrecked his life. It pretty well wrecked his political future. political future. political future. And it was only because of what happened And it was only because of what happened And it was only because of what happened in 1939 and 1940 that he's actually in 1939 and 1940 that he's actually in 1939 and 1940 that he's actually brought back into a government position brought back into a government position brought back into a government position of of some significance as first lord of of of some significance as first lord of of of some significance as first lord of the admiraly and uh and then of course the admiraly and uh and then of course the admiraly and uh and then of course becomes prime minister. And even then becomes prime minister. And even then becomes prime minister. And even then people didn't want to particularly want people didn't want to particularly want people didn't want to particularly want to trust him.

to trust him. to trust him. >> No. So, so yeah, Churchill in in in many >> No. So, so yeah, Churchill in in in many >> No. So, so yeah, Churchill in in in many ways is the the person that people will ways is the the person that people will ways is the the person that people will respond to out of trauma to say, "How respond to out of trauma to say, "How respond to out of trauma to say, "How can you possibly have any kind of can you possibly have any kind of can you possibly have any kind of confidence in defending this system?" confidence in defending this system?" confidence in defending this system?" Um, because is isn't isn't isn't Hitler Um, because is isn't isn't isn't Hitler Um, because is isn't isn't isn't Hitler more normative of of this Western more normative of of this Western more normative of of this Western civilization? Well, no, of course. No. civilization? Well, no, of course. No. civilization? Well, no, of course. No. No. Hitler is not. and and Churchill did No. Hitler is not. and and Churchill did No. Hitler is not. and and Churchill did uh a great deal of of work in making uh a great deal of of work in making uh a great deal of of work in making that clear to people in speech after that clear to people in speech after that clear to people in speech after speech. But look at the sources speech. But look at the sources speech. But look at the sources Churchill draws upon. Churchill draws Churchill draws upon. Churchill draws Churchill draws upon. Churchill draws upon the Bible. Churchill draws upon upon the Bible. Churchill draws upon upon the Bible. Churchill draws upon Shakespeare. He draws upon a sense of of Shakespeare. He draws upon a sense of of Shakespeare. He draws upon a sense of of English identity as if to say, "All English identity as if to say, "All English identity as if to say, "All right, no matter how many times we have right, no matter how many times we have right, no matter how many times we have been beaten in battlefields, no matter been beaten in battlefields, no matter been beaten in battlefields, no matter no matter even, you know, we've gone no matter even, you know, we've gone no matter even, you know, we've gone through this evacuation with at Dunkirk, through this evacuation with at Dunkirk, through this evacuation with at Dunkirk, nevertheless, there is something here nevertheless, there is something here nevertheless, there is something here that we will rise up and fight for. And that we will rise up and fight for. And that we will rise up and fight for. And not only fight for, but we will not only fight for, but we will not only fight for, but we will succeed." succeed." succeed." And at the end of that great uh that And at the end of that great uh that And at the end of that great uh that great speech in June of 1940, great speech in June of 1940, great speech in June of 1940, uh it it was you people listened to that uh it it was you people listened to that uh it it was you people listened to that on the radio and even even in the pubs on the radio and even even in the pubs on the radio and even even in the pubs and the response I remember reading of and the response I remember reading of and the response I remember reading of one one person who this was an evacuee one one person who this was an evacuee one one person who this was an evacuee from Dunkerk who was so depressed of the from Dunkerk who was so depressed of the from Dunkerk who was so depressed of the prospect of what had happened but who prospect of what had happened but who prospect of what had happened but who heard this speech and his response was heard this speech and his response was heard this speech and his response was we're going to win. We are going to win.

we're going to win. We are going to win. we're going to win. We are going to win. We're going to last our way through this We're going to last our way through this We're going to last our way through this thing, but we're going to win. The thing, but we're going to win. The thing, but we're going to win. The Churchill could call that forth from Churchill could call that forth from Churchill could call that forth from people, and there have been a number of people, and there have been a number of people, and there have been a number of of voices in the 20th century who even of voices in the 20th century who even of voices in the 20th century who even out of the wreckage of a thing called out of the wreckage of a thing called out of the wreckage of a thing called civilization are able to call us back to civilization are able to call us back to civilization are able to call us back to it. Because I think not only of it. Because I think not only of it. Because I think not only of Churchill and I I devote one section Churchill and I I devote one section Churchill and I I devote one section that way to Churchill because still to that way to Churchill because still to that way to Churchill because still to this day the most easily recognizable this day the most easily recognizable this day the most easily recognizable name, but I have to think also of name, but I have to think also of name, but I have to think also of someone like Conrad Adnau. someone like Conrad Adnau. someone like Conrad Adnau. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And Adenau Adnau does in 1945 and the >> And Adenau Adnau does in 1945 and the >> And Adenau Adnau does in 1945 and the years after 1945 what we could only wish years after 1945 what we could only wish years after 1945 what we could only wish had been done in the years after 1918. had been done in the years after 1918. had been done in the years after 1918. Because Adenau says and he and this is Because Adenau says and he and this is Because Adenau says and he and this is an explicitly Christian appeal by an explicitly Christian appeal by an explicitly Christian appeal by Adenau, Adenau, Adenau, Germany must admit what it has done. We Germany must admit what it has done. We Germany must admit what it has done. We must take the burden of our crimes into must take the burden of our crimes into must take the burden of our crimes into ourselves because otherwise we will ourselves because otherwise we will ourselves because otherwise we will never be a fit companion to the other never be a fit companion to the other never be a fit companion to the other nations and Adenau is able to do that in nations and Adenau is able to do that in nations and Adenau is able to do that in ways it would almost be unimaginable for ways it would almost be unimaginable for ways it would almost be unimaginable for any other German to have done after any other German to have done after any other German to have done after 1945. But you know something of the same 1945. But you know something of the same 1945. But you know something of the same thing is true of Charles de Gaulle. Um, thing is true of Charles de Gaulle. Um, thing is true of Charles de Gaulle. Um, go today still reminds everyone of go today still reminds everyone of go today still reminds everyone of 1962 and 1968 1962 and 1968 1962 and 1968 um when when he is this almost geriatric um when when he is this almost geriatric um when when he is this almost geriatric figure figure figure >> and and France is in an uproar about >> and and France is in an uproar about >> and and France is in an uproar about him.

him. him. >> But the de goal of 1945 >> But the de goal of 1945 >> But the de goal of 1945 is is the man who is able to put back is is the man who is able to put back is is the man who is able to put back together a nation that shouldn't have together a nation that shouldn't have together a nation that shouldn't have been put back together. They've been so been put back together. They've been so been put back together. They've been so deeply embarrassed, destroyed, uh, deeply embarrassed, destroyed, uh, deeply embarrassed, destroyed, uh, divided and de Gaulle manages to do that divided and de Gaulle manages to do that divided and de Gaulle manages to do that is is a marvelous, marvelous moment. So is is a marvelous, marvelous moment. So is is a marvelous, marvelous moment. So I would I would add to the list there. I I would I would add to the list there. I I would I would add to the list there. I would add after Churchill had an hour would add after Churchill had an hour would add after Churchill had an hour dele that likewise almost seem to be erased, that likewise almost seem to be erased, >> almost lost today. Churchill is still >> almost lost today. Churchill is still >> almost lost today. Churchill is still there, but D go and Adnau part partly I there, but D go and Adnau part partly I there, but D go and Adnau part partly I think it's because all right D gole think it's because all right D gole think it's because all right D gole speaks French, Adenau speaks German. speaks French, Adenau speaks German. speaks French, Adenau speaks German. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh they're not as easily accessible for >> Uh they're not as easily accessible for >> Uh they're not as easily accessible for uh for English speakers. Uh nevertheless uh for English speakers. Uh nevertheless uh for English speakers. Uh nevertheless that that sense of what they rebuilt that that sense of what they rebuilt that that sense of what they rebuilt uh has almost been eaced and I think uh has almost been eaced and I think uh has almost been eaced and I think it's great loss. I was I was blessed to it's great loss. I was I was blessed to it's great loss. I was I was blessed to study European history as an study European history as an study European history as an undergraduate and had great teachers so undergraduate and had great teachers so undergraduate and had great teachers so many different ways. And one of the many different ways. And one of the many different ways. And one of the books that I had to read in my second books that I had to read in my second books that I had to read in my second world war in Europe class was Mark Bl's world war in Europe class was Mark Bl's world war in Europe class was Mark Bl's book strange defeat. Um anybody who book strange defeat. Um anybody who book strange defeat. Um anybody who would be familiar with the conditions of would be familiar with the conditions of would be familiar with the conditions of France in 1940 to see what happened with France in 1940 to see what happened with France in 1940 to see what happened with the Gaul afterward would just be the Gaul afterward would just be the Gaul afterward would just be shocked. a nation that in victory lost shocked. a nation that in victory lost shocked. a nation that in victory lost its soul after 1918.

its soul after 1918. its soul after 1918. >> And um and I add to um to to Adenau >> And um and I add to um to to Adenau >> And um and I add to um to to Adenau if you want to take a measure of how if you want to take a measure of how if you want to take a measure of how Germans had to try to cope with what had Germans had to try to cope with what had Germans had to try to cope with what had happened. You have to go to to WG happened. You have to go to to WG happened. You have to go to to WG Zabolt's writings, especially Zelt's Zabolt's writings, especially Zelt's Zabolt's writings, especially Zelt's last book, which was about German memory last book, which was about German memory last book, which was about German memory uh in the in the years right after 1945. uh in the in the years right after 1945. uh in the in the years right after 1945. It's a searing account of the struggle It's a searing account of the struggle It's a searing account of the struggle Germans had to cope with what they had Germans had to cope with what they had Germans had to cope with what they had done. done. done. The figure of course for my in my mind The figure of course for my in my mind The figure of course for my in my mind that floats above it all is is the that floats above it all is is the that floats above it all is is the figure of Adenau who is who in a figure of Adenau who is who in a figure of Adenau who is who in a self-consciously self-consciously self-consciously Christian way is trying to lead Germans Christian way is trying to lead Germans Christian way is trying to lead Germans back back back to something that they had lost almost a to something that they had lost almost a to something that they had lost almost a century before. He's in a way he is century before. He's in a way he is century before. He's in a way he is cranking the clock back before Bismar. cranking the clock back before Bismar. cranking the clock back before Bismar. >> Yeah. Yeah. You need to >> Yeah. Yeah. You need to >> Yeah. Yeah. You need to >> and calling Germans to be something very >> and calling Germans to be something very >> and calling Germans to be something very different. And and the German nation as different. And and the German nation as different. And and the German nation as we see it today, the the now reunited we see it today, the the now reunited we see it today, the the now reunited German nation German nation German nation is in large measure a kind of a Germany is in large measure a kind of a Germany is in large measure a kind of a Germany that picked up from 1848 that picked up from 1848 that picked up from 1848 which almost said everything everything which almost said everything everything which almost said everything everything from 1848 to 1945 we are going to try to from 1848 to 1945 we are going to try to from 1848 to 1945 we are going to try to walk away from. We're going to go back walk away from. We're going to go back walk away from. We're going to go back to the fork in the road we took in 1848 to the fork in the road we took in 1848 to the fork in the road we took in 1848 and we're going to take the other fork.

and we're going to take the other fork. and we're going to take the other fork. And I think I can almost imagine Adenau And I think I can almost imagine Adenau And I think I can almost imagine Adenau as as the puli sigh at the fork of the as as the puli sigh at the fork of the as as the puli sigh at the fork of the road saying, "Okay, now we're going on road saying, "Okay, now we're going on road saying, "Okay, now we're going on that fork of the road." What's so hard I that fork of the road." What's so hard I that fork of the road." What's so hard I find about studying and teaching history find about studying and teaching history find about studying and teaching history is helping people to see the contingency is helping people to see the contingency is helping people to see the contingency to understand it didn't have to go that to understand it didn't have to go that to understand it didn't have to go that way um without ad now or what would have way um without ad now or what would have way um without ad now or what would have happened. Um, and I think we actually happened. Um, and I think we actually happened. Um, and I think we actually have an interesting look at the have an interesting look at the have an interesting look at the alternative with Fetlana Alex's book, alternative with Fetlana Alex's book, alternative with Fetlana Alex's book, Secondhand Time, about the fall of the Secondhand Time, about the fall of the Secondhand Time, about the fall of the Soviet Union. And you can see that the Soviet Union. And you can see that the Soviet Union. And you can see that the the shock of the rapid fall, her thesis the shock of the rapid fall, her thesis the shock of the rapid fall, her thesis that the only way the the Soviet Union that the only way the the Soviet Union that the only way the the Soviet Union ever could have collapsed as if the man ever could have collapsed as if the man ever could have collapsed as if the man at the center of it all had lost faith. at the center of it all had lost faith. at the center of it all had lost faith. And of course, that's Gorbachoff that And of course, that's Gorbachoff that And of course, that's Gorbachoff that she's talking about there. The system she's talking about there. The system she's talking about there. The system was designed to endure anything except was designed to endure anything except was designed to endure anything except for that. And that's the one thing that for that. And that's the one thing that for that. And that's the one thing that happened. But the sense of shock happened. But the sense of shock happened. But the sense of shock everybody feels the sense that how could everybody feels the sense that how could everybody feels the sense that how could we have lost our great empire without we have lost our great empire without we have lost our great empire without killing everyone. At least if we're killing everyone. At least if we're killing everyone. At least if we're going to lose it, we needed to kill going to lose it, we needed to kill going to lose it, we needed to kill everybody in the process.

everybody in the process. everybody in the process. >> And now you can see how that period of >> And now you can see how that period of >> And now you can see how that period of democracy ended up so short and why democracy ended up so short and why democracy ended up so short and why Russia reverted back to so much. In a Russia reverted back to so much. In a Russia reverted back to so much. In a way you can say that after the collapse way you can say that after the collapse way you can say that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, of the Soviet Union, of the Soviet Union, especially after 1993, especially after 1993, especially after 1993, the best thing that Russia could have the best thing that Russia could have the best thing that Russia could have done would have been to ask where did we done would have been to ask where did we done would have been to ask where did we lose our path? Where lose our path? Where lose our path? Where did we lose it in 1917? did we lose it in 1917? did we lose it in 1917? Did we lose it? Did we did we lose it in Did we lose it? Did we did we lose it in Did we lose it? Did we did we lose it in 1690? 1690? 1690? >> Yeah. Go back to DSki at least he'll >> Yeah. Go back to DSki at least he'll >> Yeah. Go back to DSki at least he'll tell you. tell you. tell you. >> Oh yeah, I'm I'm sure. Yeah. >> Oh yeah, I'm I'm sure. Yeah. >> Oh yeah, I'm I'm sure. Yeah. >> Did Did we Where did we lose our way? >> Did Did we Where did we lose our way? >> Did Did we Where did we lose our way? And if we did, how can we how can we And if we did, how can we how can we And if we did, how can we how can we pick up the way again? pick up the way again? pick up the way again? And that would if if we had asked that And that would if if we had asked that And that would if if we had asked that kind of question, I think we would have kind of question, I think we would have kind of question, I think we would have had a very different Russia than the one had a very different Russia than the one had a very different Russia than the one we have today. I think that we would we have today. I think that we would we have today. I think that we would have had a Russia undergoing a have had a Russia undergoing a have had a Russia undergoing a self-examination self-examination self-examination not dissimilar to the one undertaken in not dissimilar to the one undertaken in not dissimilar to the one undertaken in Germany and in France and elsewhere too Germany and in France and elsewhere too Germany and in France and elsewhere too in Japan after the end of World War II.

in Japan after the end of World War II. in Japan after the end of World War II. I think we could have seen the I think we could have seen the I think we could have seen the undertaking of a self-examination that undertaking of a self-examination that undertaking of a self-examination that would have dispelled would have dispelled would have dispelled a number of the illusions that presently a number of the illusions that presently a number of the illusions that presently dominate Russian thinking and Russian dominate Russian thinking and Russian dominate Russian thinking and Russian culture. culture. culture. And we we might have seen a very And we we might have seen a very And we we might have seen a very different Russia on the world stage. But different Russia on the world stage. But different Russia on the world stage. But but that did not happen because there but that did not happen because there but that did not happen because there was there were not those voices was there were not those voices was there were not those voices >> exactly >> exactly >> exactly >> that could take us back to that. >> that could take us back to that. >> that could take us back to that. Instead, there were the clamor of voices Instead, there were the clamor of voices Instead, there were the clamor of voices that wished to address address Russia, that wished to address address Russia, that wished to address address Russia, define Russia in this remarkably define Russia in this remarkably define Russia in this remarkably different and and utterly ahistorical different and and utterly ahistorical different and and utterly ahistorical way. And that's what we're dealing with way. And that's what we're dealing with way. And that's what we're dealing with now with Putin. Uh if there was a fork now with Putin. Uh if there was a fork now with Putin. Uh if there was a fork in the road there, too. in the road there, too. in the road there, too. >> Yeah. Oh, >> Yeah. Oh, >> Yeah. Oh, >> and if the voices had been there, if >> and if the voices had been there, if >> and if the voices had been there, if there had been a dtoyvki, if there had there had been a dtoyvki, if there had there had been a dtoyvki, if there had story, story, story, >> um even if there had been a ted, >> um even if there had been a ted, >> um even if there had been a ted, >> I'd settle for a tenyv. >> I'd settle for a tenyv. >> I'd settle for a tenyv. >> If even if there had been a tend, you >> If even if there had been a tend, you >> If even if there had been a tend, you know, wag that finger. Um don't think of know, wag that finger. Um don't think of know, wag that finger. Um don't think of yourselves more than you should.

yourselves more than you should. yourselves more than you should. >> There was a grossman and there was a >> There was a grossman and there was a >> There was a grossman and there was a soulja though. soulja though. soulja though. >> Didn't listen. No, didn't listen. >> Didn't listen. No, didn't listen. >> Didn't listen. No, didn't listen. >> Um, which is I don't see it as a >> Um, which is I don't see it as a >> Um, which is I don't see it as a opportunity to just wag the finger at opportunity to just wag the finger at opportunity to just wag the finger at them, but it becomes a challenge for them, but it becomes a challenge for them, but it becomes a challenge for ourselves of listening to our own ourselves of listening to our own ourselves of listening to our own prophets in our midst who are calling us prophets in our midst who are calling us prophets in our midst who are calling us back. Um, back. Um, back. Um, >> I wish, if I can pull one name at all >> I wish, if I can pull one name at all >> I wish, if I can pull one name at all out of the hat, I wish there had been a out of the hat, I wish there had been a out of the hat, I wish there had been a pastor. pastor. pastor. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In the 1990s, >> In the 1990s, >> In the 1990s, >> I think that maybe we could have been >> I think that maybe we could have been >> I think that maybe we could have been called, Russia could have been called in called, Russia could have been called in called, Russia could have been called in a different direction, but that did not a different direction, but that did not a different direction, but that did not happen. That's the contingent. happen. That's the contingent. happen. That's the contingent. >> They had a Yeltson. They did not have an >> They had a Yeltson. They did not have an >> They had a Yeltson. They did not have an Adnau there. And then they got a Putin. >> I know. >> I know. >> Now, given given the work I alluded to >> Now, given given the work I alluded to >> Now, given given the work I alluded to earlier in cultural apologetics, I earlier in cultural apologetics, I earlier in cultural apologetics, I flipped to your section God in the dock flipped to your section God in the dock flipped to your section God in the dock in the 20th century. Um, you draw out in the 20th century. Um, you draw out in the 20th century. Um, you draw out abolition of man from CS Lewis. Um, and abolition of man from CS Lewis. Um, and abolition of man from CS Lewis. Um, and kind of connect that in the broader kind of connect that in the broader kind of connect that in the broader tradition of natural law, Pope John Paul tradition of natural law, Pope John Paul tradition of natural law, Pope John Paul II. Then coming later, another II. Then coming later, another II. Then coming later, another significant figure of somebody who did significant figure of somebody who did significant figure of somebody who did step forward in that moment and made a step forward in that moment and made a step forward in that moment and made a huge difference, not only the Catholic huge difference, not only the Catholic huge difference, not only the Catholic Church, Western civilization, but of Church, Western civilization, but of Church, Western civilization, but of course his native Poland. Um, now you course his native Poland. Um, now you course his native Poland. Um, now you you mentioned these two, Lewis and John you mentioned these two, Lewis and John you mentioned these two, Lewis and John Paul II, as the exception and not the Paul II, as the exception and not the Paul II, as the exception and not the rule in what's become an an rule in what's become an an rule in what's become an an overwhelmingly skeptical age in the overwhelmingly skeptical age in the overwhelmingly skeptical age in the West. I'm wondering if you do you see West. I'm wondering if you do you see West. I'm wondering if you do you see signs in and forms of historic or signs in and forms of historic or signs in and forms of historic or orthodox Christianity that that can orthodox Christianity that that can orthodox Christianity that that can endure the dramatic changes laid out in endure the dramatic changes laid out in endure the dramatic changes laid out in your textbook and no doubt ongoing

your textbook and no doubt ongoing your textbook and no doubt ongoing changes even as we speak. changes even as we speak. changes even as we speak. >> Well, I'm I'm a historian and not a >> Well, I'm I'm a historian and not a >> Well, I'm I'm a historian and not a prophet. prophet. prophet. I have I I have no crystal ball. I I have I I have no crystal ball. I I have I I have no crystal ball. I cannot tell you what is going to be the cannot tell you what is going to be the cannot tell you what is going to be the result of this or what is going to be result of this or what is going to be result of this or what is going to be the result of that. Uh, I I can express the result of that. Uh, I I can express the result of that. Uh, I I can express some preferences, but they're are no some preferences, but they're are no some preferences, but they're are no more than than preferences. So, I I I more than than preferences. So, I I I more than than preferences. So, I I I have no claim to a map. I have no claim have no claim to a map. I have no claim have no claim to a map. I have no claim to a suppernal wisdom that that could to a suppernal wisdom that that could to a suppernal wisdom that that could tell people this is this is how it's tell people this is this is how it's tell people this is this is how it's going to happen and this is what you going to happen and this is what you going to happen and this is what you should do. This is what you must do. I I should do. This is what you must do. I I should do. This is what you must do. I I simply don't know. The the role of simply don't know. The the role of simply don't know. The the role of contingency contingency contingency warns me that many times history is like warns me that many times history is like warns me that many times history is like an accordion. an accordion. an accordion. That there are long long moments when That there are long long moments when That there are long long moments when the accordion is stretched out and the accordion is stretched out and the accordion is stretched out and things happen at a very slow pace. things happen at a very slow pace. things happen at a very slow pace. But then there are other moments when But then there are other moments when But then there are other moments when the accordion gets compressed the accordion gets compressed the accordion gets compressed and then every moment counts. Every and then every moment counts. Every and then every moment counts. Every decision at every point becomes a decision at every point becomes a decision at every point becomes a critical one.

critical one. critical one. And And And if if I did have the prophetic gift, I if if I did have the prophetic gift, I if if I did have the prophetic gift, I would be able to say this is where those would be able to say this is where those would be able to say this is where those moments are. I don't know. I do know moments are. I don't know. I do know moments are. I don't know. I do know that know that when those compressed that know that when those compressed that know that when those compressed moments occur, every minute really does moments occur, every minute really does moments occur, every minute really does count. Every decision counts. count. Every decision counts. count. Every decision counts. And that maybe simply exhorting people And that maybe simply exhorting people And that maybe simply exhorting people to that consciousness is one thing which to that consciousness is one thing which to that consciousness is one thing which the golden thread can do. Be aware of the golden thread can do. Be aware of the golden thread can do. Be aware of the fact that your decisions matter. Be the fact that your decisions matter. Be the fact that your decisions matter. Be aware that what you do even even on a aware that what you do even even on a aware that what you do even even on a daily basis can have an impact so much daily basis can have an impact so much daily basis can have an impact so much greater than you think. If you go the greater than you think. If you go the greater than you think. If you go the way of ease, if you go the way of way of ease, if you go the way of way of ease, if you go the way of cheapness, if you go the way of self cheapness, if you go the way of self cheapness, if you go the way of self delusion, then it won't simply be you at delusion, then it won't simply be you at delusion, then it won't simply be you at that moment who suffers from it. it will that moment who suffers from it. it will that moment who suffers from it. it will have wide ranging impacts have wide ranging impacts have wide ranging impacts and in ways you can't even begin to and in ways you can't even begin to and in ways you can't even begin to imagine. Whereas if you concentrate as imagine. Whereas if you concentrate as imagine. Whereas if you concentrate as TS Elliott once said TS Elliott once said TS Elliott once said on making perfect your will to do the on making perfect your will to do the on making perfect your will to do the right thing to think the right ideas to right thing to think the right ideas to right thing to think the right ideas to pursue the right course. In that way if pursue the right course. In that way if pursue the right course. In that way if you are always conscious of that then my you are always conscious of that then my you are always conscious of that then my sense is that the likelihood of making sense is that the likelihood of making sense is that the likelihood of making those right contingent decisions is those right contingent decisions is those right contingent decisions is greatly much more greatly heightened. It greatly much more greatly heightened. It greatly much more greatly heightened. It requires a degree of self-awareness

requires a degree of self-awareness requires a degree of self-awareness of yourself personally and of your of yourself personally and of your of yourself personally and of your environment. But in real terms, that's environment. But in real terms, that's environment. But in real terms, that's what the golden thread is there to what the golden thread is there to what the golden thread is there to provide. That consciousness of our provide. That consciousness of our provide. That consciousness of our cultural environment where the where cultural environment where the where cultural environment where the where where where where the riches are really uh are really the riches are really uh are really the riches are really uh are really stored and sometimes where the body is stored and sometimes where the body is stored and sometimes where the body is really buried. really buried. really buried. >> True. there. Um >> True. there. Um >> True. there. Um I I I let's look back then and try to try to let's look back then and try to try to let's look back then and try to try to approach it from kind of the the approach it from kind of the the approach it from kind of the the question from a different angle here. question from a different angle here. question from a different angle here. How do you figure out where to place the How do you figure out where to place the How do you figure out where to place the role of Christianity in Western role of Christianity in Western role of Christianity in Western civilization? It's a massive question, civilization? It's a massive question, civilization? It's a massive question, but here's here's what I mean. Is but here's here's what I mean. Is but here's here's what I mean. Is Christianity the evolutionary transition Christianity the evolutionary transition Christianity the evolutionary transition from the origins in Greece and Rome to a from the origins in Greece and Rome to a from the origins in Greece and Rome to a sort of post-war global secularism? sort of post-war global secularism? sort of post-war global secularism? Or is it the real heartbeat of what Or is it the real heartbeat of what Or is it the real heartbeat of what separates the west from those pagan separates the west from those pagan separates the west from those pagan origins on the one hand and modern origins on the one hand and modern origins on the one hand and modern attempts to universalize distinctively attempts to universalize distinctively attempts to universalize distinctively Christian values as secular? Um this has Christian values as secular? Um this has Christian values as secular? Um this has become a big debate with Tom Holland's become a big debate with Tom Holland's become a big debate with Tom Holland's book Dominion things like that. So I'm book Dominion things like that. So I'm book Dominion things like that. So I'm about to mention Tom Holland. All right.

about to mention Tom Holland. All right. about to mention Tom Holland. All right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um, Holland, >> Okay. Um, Holland, >> Okay. Um, Holland, Holland tends to present us with more of Holland tends to present us with more of Holland tends to present us with more of the dichotomy the dichotomy the dichotomy that classical civilization that classical civilization that classical civilization was was full of violence. It was full of was was full of violence. It was full of was was full of violence. It was full of destruction destruction destruction and Christianity has to come and gentle and Christianity has to come and gentle and Christianity has to come and gentle that down. that down. that down. Well, yes, that is to a certain extent Well, yes, that is to a certain extent Well, yes, that is to a certain extent true. true. true. But what Henkins and I have talked about But what Henkins and I have talked about But what Henkins and I have talked about is viewing is viewing is viewing these moments, these civilizational these moments, these civilizational these moments, these civilizational moments, less as evolutions, moments, less as evolutions, moments, less as evolutions, by which I mean the change of something by which I mean the change of something by which I mean the change of something into something different, into something different, into something different, less as evolutions and more as the less as evolutions and more as the less as evolutions and more as the creation of a stack. creation of a stack. creation of a stack. >> Okay? >> Okay? >> Okay? >> In this case, almost like a cake, a >> In this case, almost like a cake, a >> In this case, almost like a cake, a layered cake. And in in some in in some layered cake. And in in some in in some layered cake. And in in some in in some ways ways ways we weed out we weed out we weed out from the from from the layer that we from the from from the layer that we from the from from the layer that we call Christian civilization.

call Christian civilization. call Christian civilization. We weed out the incompatible elements We weed out the incompatible elements We weed out the incompatible elements from the previous layers. from the previous layers. from the previous layers. >> I see >> I see >> I see >> that's that is not an evolution though >> that's that is not an evolution though >> that's that is not an evolution though because we also absorb from Greece and because we also absorb from Greece and because we also absorb from Greece and from Rome and from the Old Testament. We from Rome and from the Old Testament. We from Rome and from the Old Testament. We absorb a host of ideas. absorb a host of ideas. absorb a host of ideas. If we go for instance to the New If we go for instance to the New If we go for instance to the New Testament, you don't get a very clear Testament, you don't get a very clear Testament, you don't get a very clear idea of what political society is idea of what political society is idea of what political society is supposed to be. You simply don't. I supposed to be. You simply don't. I supposed to be. You simply don't. I mean, the Roman Empire is there and that mean, the Roman Empire is there and that mean, the Roman Empire is there and that and no one no one questions it. and no one no one questions it. and no one no one questions it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh if anything, even the earliest >> Uh if anything, even the earliest >> Uh if anything, even the earliest Christians find their find a way to Christians find their find a way to Christians find their find a way to maneuver in the interstices maneuver in the interstices maneuver in the interstices of of Roman politics and Roman political of of Roman politics and Roman political of of Roman politics and Roman political societies. St. Paul is able to appeal to societies. St. Paul is able to appeal to societies. St. Paul is able to appeal to being a Roman citizen, isn't it? And being a Roman citizen, isn't it? And being a Roman citizen, isn't it? And that's a potent appeal. If you've ever that's a potent appeal. If you've ever that's a potent appeal. If you've ever read the second cataline oration, you read the second cataline oration, you read the second cataline oration, you know what I mean. That's potent, but know what I mean. That's potent, but know what I mean. That's potent, but he's he's within that. He's quoting he's he's within that. He's quoting he's he's within that. He's quoting Greek philosophers uh on the Aropagus.

Greek philosophers uh on the Aropagus. Greek philosophers uh on the Aropagus. And some of some of them are fairly And some of some of them are fairly And some of some of them are fairly obscure obscured to us. Of course, obscure obscured to us. Of course, obscure obscured to us. Of course, they're much more well known in those they're much more well known in those they're much more well known in those times. Um St. Paul is is is quite adept times. Um St. Paul is is is quite adept times. Um St. Paul is is is quite adept at doing that. Picking this and picking at doing that. Picking this and picking at doing that. Picking this and picking that. What is he doing? He's he's not that. What is he doing? He's he's not that. What is he doing? He's he's not saying everything that went before us is saying everything that went before us is saying everything that went before us is wrong. Everything went before us is a wrong. Everything went before us is a wrong. Everything went before us is a mistake. We're starting all over again mistake. We're starting all over again mistake. We're starting all over again from from the beginning line. But he's from from the beginning line. But he's from from the beginning line. But he's saying, "All right, these things are saying, "All right, these things are saying, "All right, these things are true. Not only are they true, but the true. Not only are they true, but the true. Not only are they true, but the people who have discovered them people who have discovered them people who have discovered them know that they're true as well. I mean know that they're true as well. I mean know that they're true as well. I mean they try to suppress aspects of it but they try to suppress aspects of it but they try to suppress aspects of it but they know that it's true in that they know that it's true in that they know that it's true in that respect. St. Paul is a natural law respect. St. Paul is a natural law respect. St. Paul is a natural law >> theologian >> theologian >> theologian >> and he does not see us evolving into >> and he does not see us evolving into >> and he does not see us evolving into something entirely different. That is something entirely different. That is something entirely different. That is what evolution assumes. What he is what evolution assumes. What he is what evolution assumes. What he is seeing is the the building up towards a seeing is the the building up towards a seeing is the the building up towards a goal. goal. goal. And for him that particular goal is the And for him that particular goal is the And for him that particular goal is the revelation of God in Christ.

revelation of God in Christ. revelation of God in Christ. So each one of these layers is not So each one of these layers is not So each one of these layers is not something to be tossed aside but rather something to be tossed aside but rather something to be tossed aside but rather something to be built upon. something to be built upon. something to be built upon. >> We look to the Greeks and we learn >> We look to the Greeks and we learn >> We look to the Greeks and we learn important things. We learn important important things. We learn important important things. We learn important things about political society. The New things about political society. The New things about political society. The New Testament doesn't teach us. The new the Testament doesn't teach us. The new the Testament doesn't teach us. The new the New Testament does not talk about New Testament does not talk about New Testament does not talk about democracy. It doesn't talk about democracy. It doesn't talk about democracy. It doesn't talk about imperial rule. It simply takes as a imperial rule. It simply takes as a imperial rule. It simply takes as a given. The Romans are there. We've got given. The Romans are there. We've got given. The Romans are there. We've got to live with them. We got to play by to live with them. We got to play by to live with them. We got to play by their rules because if we don't, our their rules because if we don't, our their rules because if we don't, our heads go off our shoulders. Well, that's heads go off our shoulders. Well, that's heads go off our shoulders. Well, that's not exactly what I call profound not exactly what I call profound not exactly what I call profound political philosophy. It's not testament political philosophy. It's not testament political philosophy. It's not testament to earth. Well, we of course have to to earth. Well, we of course have to to earth. Well, we of course have to live in an environment that reckons with live in an environment that reckons with live in an environment that reckons with political society. So, where do we get political society. So, where do we get political society. So, where do we get where do we get ideas that are consent where do we get ideas that are consent where do we get ideas that are consent with with Christianity? Well, we're with with Christianity? Well, we're with with Christianity? Well, we're going to go to our friends the Greeks. going to go to our friends the Greeks. going to go to our friends the Greeks. We're going to go to our friends the We're going to go to our friends the We're going to go to our friends the Romans. We're going we're going to read Romans. We're going we're going to read Romans. We're going we're going to read Pericles or Asian. Um we're going to Pericles or Asian. Um we're going to Pericles or Asian. Um we're going to read Heroditus and get very excited. and read Heroditus and get very excited. and read Heroditus and get very excited. and we're going to read Thusidities and get we're going to read Thusidities and get we're going to read Thusidities and get very depressed. very depressed. very depressed. That was happening even then. All right.

That was happening even then. All right. That was happening even then. All right. Um and and likewise with the Romans. U Um and and likewise with the Romans. U Um and and likewise with the Romans. U so um we're going we're going to read so um we're going we're going to read so um we're going we're going to read them. We're going to learn about a them. We're going to learn about a them. We're going to learn about a number of things that we can't simply number of things that we can't simply number of things that we can't simply get as a matter of Christian revelation get as a matter of Christian revelation get as a matter of Christian revelation or even that Christian natural theology. or even that Christian natural theology. or even that Christian natural theology. So, it's a building and I think it has So, it's a building and I think it has So, it's a building and I think it has to be a building stacked one on top of to be a building stacked one on top of to be a building stacked one on top of another. Now, what that invites is the another. Now, what that invites is the another. Now, what that invites is the question, is there going to be another question, is there going to be another question, is there going to be another layer? layer? layer? >> Yeah. And what are we still weeding? And >> Yeah. And what are we still weeding? And >> Yeah. And what are we still weeding? And what are we still absorbing? Because I what are we still absorbing? Because I what are we still absorbing? Because I think that's the question with think that's the question with think that's the question with Christianity. We've clearly absorbed it. Christianity. We've clearly absorbed it. Christianity. We've clearly absorbed it. Can we now weed it out and move on? Can we now weed it out and move on? Can we now weed it out and move on? >> And this this is this is a challenge for >> And this this is this is a challenge for >> And this this is this is a challenge for Christian thinkers and in fact always Christian thinkers and in fact always Christian thinkers and in fact always has been. Take this back to the 12th has been. Take this back to the 12th has been. Take this back to the 12th century. You have you have Christian century. You have you have Christian century. You have you have Christian thinkers who are very eager to absorb thinkers who are very eager to absorb thinkers who are very eager to absorb arisatilian dialectic arisatilian dialectic arisatilian dialectic >> and you have other Christian thinkers >> and you have other Christian thinkers >> and you have other Christian thinkers who re recoil from that with horror. who re recoil from that with horror. who re recoil from that with horror. You're playing with fire. They're You're playing with fire. They're You're playing with fire. They're warning. Well, in the long run it is warning. Well, in the long run it is warning. Well, in the long run it is dialectic which which wins the day. And dialectic which which wins the day. And dialectic which which wins the day. And I and I don't think that we're the I and I don't think that we're the I and I don't think that we're the losers for that.

losers for that. losers for that. But there it was a question then and But there it was a question then and But there it was a question then and there will be questions today. there will be questions today. there will be questions today. And we will look to see how does our And we will look to see how does our And we will look to see how does our Christianity Christianity Christianity confront novel situations where we confront novel situations where we confront novel situations where we understand the role of contingency. understand the role of contingency. understand the role of contingency. The fact that we have built these stacks The fact that we have built these stacks The fact that we have built these stacks on Greece, on Rome, on the the the era on Greece, on Rome, on the the the era on Greece, on Rome, on the the the era of Christendom and the Middle Ages and of Christendom and the Middle Ages and of Christendom and the Middle Ages and now a modern age. now a modern age. now a modern age. I I don't think that's something to be I I don't think that's something to be I I don't think that's something to be frightened of because at each level frightened of because at each level frightened of because at each level something marvelous has happened. I mean something marvelous has happened. I mean something marvelous has happened. I mean for St. Paul this is it's very obvious for St. Paul this is it's very obvious for St. Paul this is it's very obvious that the Roman world is there as a that the Roman world is there as a that the Roman world is there as a deliberate preparation for the gospel. deliberate preparation for the gospel. deliberate preparation for the gospel. >> Uh that's that's I mean Rome is not >> Uh that's that's I mean Rome is not >> Uh that's that's I mean Rome is not something simply to be regretted. It it something simply to be regretted. It it something simply to be regretted. It it was not a a gigantic mistake. It paves was not a a gigantic mistake. It paves was not a a gigantic mistake. It paves the way. And you look at the early the way. And you look at the early the way. And you look at the early Christian literally Christian literally Christian literally >> you look Yeah. You look at your All >> you look Yeah. You look at your All >> you look Yeah. You look at your All right. You look at some a number of the right. You look at some a number of the right. You look at some a number of the other Christian apologists. They're other Christian apologists. They're other Christian apologists. They're they're some of them are actually they're some of them are actually they're some of them are actually excessively complimentary of Rome. Uh excessively complimentary of Rome. Uh excessively complimentary of Rome. Uh because Rome made it Roman because Rome made it Roman because Rome made it Roman communications, Roman roads, Roman communications, Roman roads, Roman communications, Roman roads, Roman government. They make it possible for government. They make it possible for government. They make it possible for the easy spread of of the gospel through the easy spread of of the gospel through the easy spread of of the gospel through the empire. So we perhaps will be on a the empire. So we perhaps will be on a the empire. So we perhaps will be on a voyage of discovery ourselves. And it voyage of discovery ourselves. And it voyage of discovery ourselves. And it doesn't mean that we are going to doesn't mean that we are going to doesn't mean that we are going to abandon any more than we've abandoned abandon any more than we've abandoned abandon any more than we've abandoned Rome. We love Rome. I love Rome. I wish Rome. We love Rome. I love Rome. I wish Rome. We love Rome. I love Rome. I wish I loved it more because I would have

I loved it more because I would have I loved it more because I would have done better in Latin class with done better in Latin class with done better in Latin class with um did much better. We both had the same um did much better. We both had the same um did much better. We both had the same Latin. Latin. Latin. This believe this was a public school. This believe this was a public school. This believe this was a public school. Really? Four years of Latin. Really? Four years of Latin. Really? Four years of Latin. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> And we were translating Caesar by year >> And we were translating Caesar by year >> And we were translating Caesar by year two. two. two. But I'm I'm sorry. I'm I'm not a I'm not But I'm I'm sorry. I'm I'm not a I'm not But I'm I'm sorry. I'm I'm not a I'm not a linguist. Jim Jim is so much better at a linguist. Jim Jim is so much better at a linguist. Jim Jim is so much better at this. I I'm just bowed the neck and this. I I'm just bowed the neck and this. I I'm just bowed the neck and spread when he when he's pictures end of spread when he when he's pictures end of spread when he when he's pictures end of Latin. Latin. Latin. >> I I have I have only the barest >> I I have I have only the barest >> I I have I have only the barest competence. But uh competence. But uh competence. But uh but we don't we don't get rid of that. but we don't we don't get rid of that. but we don't we don't get rid of that. We don't want to get rid of of classical We don't want to get rid of of classical We don't want to get rid of of classical learning because it informs so much of learning because it informs so much of learning because it informs so much of what we are. We don't want to get rid of what we are. We don't want to get rid of what we are. We don't want to get rid of Greece. He's better at Greek than I am, Greece. He's better at Greek than I am, Greece. He's better at Greek than I am, too. It's been adorable. too. It's been adorable. too. It's been adorable. Um I I'm I'm I'm happy just to limp Um I I'm I'm I'm happy just to limp Um I I'm I'm I'm happy just to limp through English. Um through English. Um through English. Um we we don't we don't want to set those we we don't we don't want to set those we we don't we don't want to set those aside because they're great things. And aside because they're great things. And aside because they're great things. And and in a sense, if we really have a and in a sense, if we really have a and in a sense, if we really have a consistently Christian providential view consistently Christian providential view consistently Christian providential view of things, we realize that Greece and of things, we realize that Greece and of things, we realize that Greece and Rome were not simply accidents to be Rome were not simply accidents to be Rome were not simply accidents to be regretted. that there are wonderful regretted. that there are wonderful regretted. that there are wonderful things that are laid out for us there things that are laid out for us there things that are laid out for us there that we can enjoy and enjoy in the best that we can enjoy and enjoy in the best that we can enjoy and enjoy in the best Christian sense. So we absorb these Christian sense. So we absorb these Christian sense. So we absorb these things up through the layers. Will there things up through the layers. Will there things up through the layers. Will there be another layer? Yeah. But it'll be a be another layer? Yeah. But it'll be a be another layer? Yeah. But it'll be a layer that does not wipe away the layer that does not wipe away the layer that does not wipe away the previous layers. It will still be a

previous layers. It will still be a previous layers. It will still be a Greek, a Roman, a Christian layer. Even Greek, a Roman, a Christian layer. Even Greek, a Roman, a Christian layer. Even if it is a new layer that we can discern if it is a new layer that we can discern if it is a new layer that we can discern as such. So I I am not a pessimist. I am as such. So I I am not a pessimist. I am as such. So I I am not a pessimist. I am not expecting Christianity somehow to be not expecting Christianity somehow to be not expecting Christianity somehow to be vacuumed out of the civilizational vacuumed out of the civilizational vacuumed out of the civilizational picture. Uh because it doesn't happen picture. Uh because it doesn't happen picture. Uh because it doesn't happen that way. Uh to the contrary, the that way. Uh to the contrary, the that way. Uh to the contrary, the question is going to be all right, what question is going to be all right, what question is going to be all right, what are we going to see moving into a new are we going to see moving into a new are we going to see moving into a new age which has been so dramatically age which has been so dramatically age which has been so dramatically transformed by technology. transformed by technology. transformed by technology. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What is that going to do? I it it is >> What is that going to do? I it it is >> What is that going to do? I it it is going to be interesting. And that's not going to be interesting. And that's not going to be interesting. And that's not always a complimentary word, but it is always a complimentary word, but it is always a complimentary word, but it is going to be interesting to see what going to be interesting to see what going to be interesting to see what stands before us. To my mind, that makes stands before us. To my mind, that makes stands before us. To my mind, that makes all the more important. all the more important. all the more important. Appropriating and understanding the Appropriating and understanding the Appropriating and understanding the civilizations which have gone before us civilizations which have gone before us civilizations which have gone before us and which we are built on because having and which we are built on because having and which we are built on because having a self-consciousness of those is what is a self-consciousness of those is what is a self-consciousness of those is what is going to make the future a much more going to make the future a much more going to make the future a much more habitable and decent future. If we lose habitable and decent future. If we lose habitable and decent future. If we lose that sense of what we've had in the that sense of what we've had in the that sense of what we've had in the past, then we will be past, then we will be past, then we will be we will almost be like like William we will almost be like like William we will almost be like like William Golding's Lord of the Flies set on a Golding's Lord of the Flies set on a Golding's Lord of the Flies set on a desert island with no precedents, with desert island with no precedents, with desert island with no precedents, with no restraints. And what is the result?

no restraints. And what is the result? no restraints. And what is the result? The result is horror. The result is horror. The result is horror. Um that and I I don't mention Golding in Um that and I I don't mention Golding in Um that and I I don't mention Golding in in uh the second volume because I I in uh the second volume because I I in uh the second volume because I I can't I can't do everything. I mean, my can't I can't do everything. I mean, my can't I can't do everything. I mean, my goodness, it's 900 pages as it is. I goodness, it's 900 pages as it is. I goodness, it's 900 pages as it is. I have to tote around. have to tote around. have to tote around. So, I there has to be a selection So, I there has to be a selection So, I there has to be a selection process. I will plead guilty for anyone process. I will plead guilty for anyone process. I will plead guilty for anyone who doesn't like what I have selected. who doesn't like what I have selected. who doesn't like what I have selected. They might like Branuzi. I write about They might like Branuzi. I write about They might like Branuzi. I write about Picasso. All right. F my advice, as Picasso. All right. F my advice, as Picasso. All right. F my advice, as you've read in the preface to it, and I you've read in the preface to it, and I you've read in the preface to it, and I put it in French to make it mild. put it in French to make it mild. put it in French to make it mild. >> Write your own book. >> Write your own book. >> Write your own book. >> Your own book. >> Your own book. >> Your own book. I appreciate that. Just as we're I appreciate that. Just as we're I appreciate that. Just as we're wrapping up here, we mentioned all these wrapping up here, we mentioned all these wrapping up here, we mentioned all these other different uh people who did. They other different uh people who did. They other different uh people who did. They were raised up. They stepped forward in were raised up. They stepped forward in were raised up. They stepped forward in those moments. We looked at other times those moments. We looked at other times those moments. We looked at other times when nobody did. Um I look back on when nobody did. Um I look back on when nobody did. Um I look back on American history and and of course to American history and and of course to American history and and of course to the great recoverers, Lincoln and King.

the great recoverers, Lincoln and King. the great recoverers, Lincoln and King. Um both very self-conscious in their Um both very self-conscious in their Um both very self-conscious in their appropriating the Western tradition in appropriating the Western tradition in appropriating the Western tradition in the self-correction mode. And I think the self-correction mode. And I think the self-correction mode. And I think that's so clearly the path to be able to that's so clearly the path to be able to that's so clearly the path to be able to take. Not to pretend like there are no take. Not to pretend like there are no take. Not to pretend like there are no problems. Neither one of them did. Not problems. Neither one of them did. Not problems. Neither one of them did. Not to pretend like we need to go somewhere to pretend like we need to go somewhere to pretend like we need to go somewhere else for all the answers. They found it else for all the answers. They found it else for all the answers. They found it within the tradition and very within the tradition and very within the tradition and very specifically within Christianity or at specifically within Christianity or at specifically within Christianity or at least those I mean King as a preacher. least those I mean King as a preacher. least those I mean King as a preacher. Lincoln as not necessarily an observant Lincoln as not necessarily an observant Lincoln as not necessarily an observant Christian but one who was clearly Christian but one who was clearly Christian but one who was clearly steeped in that tradition tradition as steeped in that tradition tradition as steeped in that tradition tradition as you've written about so eloquently um you've written about so eloquently um you've written about so eloquently um many different different places. It many different different places. It many different different places. It makes me wonder and this is the the makes me wonder and this is the the makes me wonder and this is the the premise of our work at the Keller Center premise of our work at the Keller Center premise of our work at the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. Our belief is for Cultural Apologetics. Our belief is for Cultural Apologetics. Our belief is that in this western civilizational that in this western civilizational that in this western civilizational transition, what we need is a we need an transition, what we need is a we need an transition, what we need is a we need an Augustine. We need a fifth century Augustine. We need a fifth century Augustine. We need a fifth century Augustine. We and we may get that. Augustine. We and we may get that. Augustine. We and we may get that. Here's here's the optimistic part. Here's here's the optimistic part. Here's here's the optimistic part. The optimistic part is illustrated by The optimistic part is illustrated by The optimistic part is illustrated by Lincoln Lincoln Lincoln because we come in 1860 to the most because we come in 1860 to the most because we come in 1860 to the most tremendous crisis of this whole idea of tremendous crisis of this whole idea of tremendous crisis of this whole idea of a democratic republic.

a democratic republic. a democratic republic. People had been prophesying for decades People had been prophesying for decades People had been prophesying for decades that this thing was was a that this thing was was a that this thing was was a self-contradiction. It was going to run self-contradiction. It was going to run self-contradiction. It was going to run off the rails and destroy itself. And it off the rails and destroy itself. And it off the rails and destroy itself. And it looked in 1860 as though all those looked in 1860 as though all those looked in 1860 as though all those prophets, those negative prophets were prophets, those negative prophets were prophets, those negative prophets were right. right. right. >> Yeah. Right. Because who and who were >> Yeah. Right. Because who and who were >> Yeah. Right. Because who and who were the presidents prior? the presidents prior? the presidents prior? >> Terrible terrible string of presidents >> Terrible terrible string of presidents >> Terrible terrible string of presidents >> Millard Filillmore Franklin James >> Millard Filillmore Franklin James >> Millard Filillmore Franklin James Buchanan. Buchanan. Buchanan. This is what a democracy produces. This is what a democracy produces. This is what a democracy produces. That's was the argument that people used That's was the argument that people used That's was the argument that people used then what did we get when we needed him then what did we get when we needed him then what did we get when we needed him the most? We get an Abraham Lincoln. And the most? We get an Abraham Lincoln. And the most? We get an Abraham Lincoln. And the most unlikely the most unlikely the most unlikely most unlikely source of of any kind of most unlikely source of of any kind of most unlikely source of of any kind of deliverance. Here was some he never went deliverance. Here was some he never went deliverance. Here was some he never went to college to college to college had probably less than a year of formal had probably less than a year of formal had probably less than a year of formal schooling. schooling. schooling. And when he was elected, he was such a And when he was elected, he was such a And when he was elected, he was such a darkhorse candidate that a lot of the darkhorse candidate that a lot of the darkhorse candidate that a lot of the campaign posters didn't even spell his campaign posters didn't even spell his campaign posters didn't even spell his name correctly. name correctly. name correctly. Um, and there was one news I love this Um, and there was one news I love this Um, and there was one news I love this story. There was one newspaper editor in story. There was one newspaper editor in story. There was one newspaper editor in Illinois who after Lincoln's election Illinois who after Lincoln's election Illinois who after Lincoln's election was so disgusted was so disgusted was so disgusted that he and he editorialized. Who will that he and he editorialized. Who will that he and he editorialized. Who will write this ignorant man's state papers write this ignorant man's state papers write this ignorant man's state papers for him?

for him? for him? >> Oh boy. Wow. >> Talk about talk about Casey at the bat. >> Talk about talk about Casey at the bat. All right. All right. All right. Really big whiff. Really big whiff. Really big whiff. But that illustrates one thing and that But that illustrates one thing and that But that illustrates one thing and that is contingency can sometimes turn in a is contingency can sometimes turn in a is contingency can sometimes turn in a negative direction but can also turn a negative direction but can also turn a negative direction but can also turn a positive direction. positive direction. positive direction. >> All right. Are we cultivating Lincoln's? >> All right. Are we cultivating Lincoln's? >> All right. Are we cultivating Lincoln's? How did we get Lincoln? It did he didn't How did we get Lincoln? It did he didn't How did we get Lincoln? It did he didn't drop down from from the clouds. Uh his drop down from from the clouds. Uh his drop down from from the clouds. Uh his this was a man whose intellectual this was a man whose intellectual this was a man whose intellectual curiosity was ravenous. curiosity was ravenous. curiosity was ravenous. He read anything he lay his hands on and He read anything he lay his hands on and He read anything he lay his hands on and he continued doing that all through his he continued doing that all through his he continued doing that all through his life. And you you get surprised when you life. And you you get surprised when you life. And you you get surprised when you read through Lincoln's speeches. They read through Lincoln's speeches. They read through Lincoln's speeches. They are studded are studded are studded with material that is clearly he has with material that is clearly he has with material that is clearly he has brought from reading in a vast array of brought from reading in a vast array of brought from reading in a vast array of things. Most obviously the Bible, most things. Most obviously the Bible, most things. Most obviously the Bible, most obviously Shakespeare. obviously Shakespeare. obviously Shakespeare. But look, there are big traces of Adam But look, there are big traces of Adam But look, there are big traces of Adam Smith, of John Stewart Mill, of of the Smith, of John Stewart Mill, of of the Smith, of John Stewart Mill, of of the political economists of his day. Here's political economists of his day. Here's political economists of his day. Here's a man who had read a tremendous amount a man who had read a tremendous amount a man who had read a tremendous amount and people who spent any kind of If you and people who spent any kind of If you and people who spent any kind of If you spent five minutes with Lincoln, you spent five minutes with Lincoln, you spent five minutes with Lincoln, you would think he was somebody from the would think he was somebody from the would think he was somebody from the backwoods cuz he talked, backwoods cuz he talked, backwoods cuz he talked, >> which he was, of course. Yeah. Mhm.

>> which he was, of course. Yeah. Mhm. >> which he was, of course. Yeah. Mhm. >> Sat and talked with him for half an >> Sat and talked with him for half an >> Sat and talked with him for half an hour. hour. hour. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> Came away impressed by the by what this >> Came away impressed by the by what this >> Came away impressed by the by what this man knew, had thought about, and had man knew, had thought about, and had man knew, had thought about, and had read. read. read. That's what we got. Unexpected, unlooked That's what we got. Unexpected, unlooked That's what we got. Unexpected, unlooked for. for. for. I think we have to have some patience I think we have to have some patience I think we have to have some patience with ourselves. This can happen but only with ourselves. This can happen but only with ourselves. This can happen but only if we are willing to be ready for it to if we are willing to be ready for it to if we are willing to be ready for it to happen to prepare ourselves to think and happen to prepare ourselves to think and happen to prepare ourselves to think and to read and like Edmund Dantes to plunge to read and like Edmund Dantes to plunge to read and like Edmund Dantes to plunge our hands into that treasure chest on our hands into that treasure chest on our hands into that treasure chest on the island of Monte Cristo. two greatest the island of Monte Cristo. two greatest the island of Monte Cristo. two greatest political speech writers, Churchill and political speech writers, Churchill and political speech writers, Churchill and Lincoln, both autodidacts, Lincoln, both autodidacts, Lincoln, both autodidacts, both of them. And I'm I'm optimistic both of them. And I'm I'm optimistic both of them. And I'm I'm optimistic like you. Um, and I actually am so like you. Um, and I actually am so like you. Um, and I actually am so optimistic I'm going to be spending the optimistic I'm going to be spending the optimistic I'm going to be spending the rest of my day today editing a book uh rest of my day today editing a book uh rest of my day today editing a book uh on artificial intelligence, but to on artificial intelligence, but to on artificial intelligence, but to believe that artificial intelligence believe that artificial intelligence believe that artificial intelligence might actually provoke a revival of might actually provoke a revival of might actually provoke a revival of classical education and the liberal arts classical education and the liberal arts classical education and the liberal arts to expose the weaknesses. Go ahead. And to expose the weaknesses. Go ahead. And to expose the weaknesses. Go ahead. And wouldn't that be the surprise of the wouldn't that be the surprise of the wouldn't that be the surprise of the year? Oh, wouldn't it?

year? Oh, wouldn't it? year? Oh, wouldn't it? >> But by exposing the problems of focusing >> But by exposing the problems of focusing >> But by exposing the problems of focusing only on a practical or technical only on a practical or technical only on a practical or technical outcomes. Um, but understand that the outcomes. Um, but understand that the outcomes. Um, but understand that the way you prepare for what you can't see way you prepare for what you can't see way you prepare for what you can't see is by storing up those riches of the is by storing up those riches of the is by storing up those riches of the past just like you cited there. So past just like you cited there. So past just like you cited there. So that's my hope and uh thanks for helping that's my hope and uh thanks for helping that's my hope and uh thanks for helping to inspire that and to equip us with to inspire that and to equip us with to inspire that and to equip us with this book, the golden thread, a history this book, the golden thread, a history this book, the golden thread, a history of the western tradition volume 2, the of the western tradition volume 2, the of the western tradition volume 2, the modern and contemporary west and for the modern and contemporary west and for the modern and contemporary west and for the golden thread substack that you guys golden thread substack that you guys golden thread substack that you guys have just started. I'm going to go make have just started. I'm going to go make have just started. I'm going to go make sure I subscribe to that right now. Glad sure I subscribe to that right now. Glad sure I subscribe to that right now. Glad to hear about it. Dr. Gellzo, always an to hear about it. Dr. Gellzo, always an to hear about it. Dr. Gellzo, always an honor. Thank you so much for joining me honor. Thank you so much for joining me honor. Thank you so much for joining me on Gospel Bound. on Gospel Bound. on Gospel Bound. >> Oh, you're very welcome. And it was good >> Oh, you're very welcome. And it was good >> Oh, you're very welcome. And it was good to talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.