Young, Restless, and Roman? Catholicism and Gen Z

The other thing, the subject that we're The other thing, the subject that we're going to pick up first, um was a piece going to pick up first, um was a piece going to pick up first, um was a piece in the Washington Post that got in the Washington Post that got in the Washington Post that got published called why Catholic converts published called why Catholic converts published called why Catholic converts are surging with an unexpected are surging with an unexpected are surging with an unexpected demographic. It was written by Julia demographic. It was written by Julia demographic. It was written by Julia Yost, who's a senior editor of First Yost, who's a senior editor of First Yost, who's a senior editor of First Things magazine, and she explained the Things magazine, and she explained the Things magazine, and she explained the average American diocese received 38% average American diocese received 38% average American diocese received 38% more converts this year than last year, more converts this year than last year, more converts this year than last year, and a disproportionate number of them and a disproportionate number of them and a disproportionate number of them were young. were young. were young. Now, she was clear to caveat that this Now, she was clear to caveat that this Now, she was clear to caveat that this doesn't mean the Catholic Church is doesn't mean the Catholic Church is doesn't mean the Catholic Church is growing because recent interest doesn't growing because recent interest doesn't growing because recent interest doesn't even begin to offset the number of even begin to offset the number of even begin to offset the number of people that have been leaving over people that have been leaving over people that have been leaving over decades before this. I'm going to read decades before this. I'm going to read decades before this. I'm going to read you the most interesting paragraph of you the most interesting paragraph of you the most interesting paragraph of the entire piece, at least I thought it the entire piece, at least I thought it the entire piece, at least I thought it was the most interesting. was the most interesting. was the most interesting. It goes like this. The age of Instagram It goes like this. The age of Instagram It goes like this. The age of Instagram and TikTok favors Catholicism. An and TikTok favors Catholicism. An and TikTok favors Catholicism. An earlier [clears throat] era of the earlier [clears throat] era of the earlier [clears throat] era of the internet, that of the blogosphere, was internet, that of the blogosphere, was internet, that of the blogosphere, was congenial to Protestantism with its congenial to Protestantism with its congenial to Protestantism with its biblical and exegetical basis. The biblical and exegetical basis. The biblical and exegetical basis. The result was the young, restless, and result was the young, restless, and result was the young, restless, and reformed movement, mostly male reformed movement, mostly male reformed movement, mostly male Protestants reading one another's blogs Protestants reading one another's blogs Protestants reading one another's blogs and finding their way from and finding their way from and finding their way from seeker-sensitive evangelicalism to seeker-sensitive evangelicalism to seeker-sensitive evangelicalism to high-proof Calvinism.

high-proof Calvinism. high-proof Calvinism. Today's internet, by contrast, is Today's internet, by contrast, is Today's internet, by contrast, is image-forward and post-literate. image-forward and post-literate. image-forward and post-literate. This helps to explain why today's online This helps to explain why today's online This helps to explain why today's online Christians tend to be young, restless, Christians tend to be young, restless, Christians tend to be young, restless, and Roman. and Roman. and Roman. So, I'm here with Collin, who named the So, I'm here with Collin, who named the So, I'm here with Collin, who named the young, restless, and reformed movement young, restless, and reformed movement young, restless, and reformed movement that he that she's talking about. that he that she's talking about. that he that she's talking about. Welcome, Collin. Welcome, Collin. Welcome, Collin. Oh, man, this is going to be fun. Oh, man, this is going to be fun. Oh, man, this is going to be fun. Thanks, Sarah. Yeah. Here's my first Thanks, Sarah. Yeah. Here's my first Thanks, Sarah. Yeah. Here's my first question for you because Yost writes, question for you because Yost writes, question for you because Yost writes, "An old stereotype has it that "An old stereotype has it that "An old stereotype has it that Protestantism is for people who read Protestantism is for people who read Protestantism is for people who read books and Catholicism is for people who books and Catholicism is for people who books and Catholicism is for people who want spectacle. So, say hello to Gen Z." want spectacle. So, say hello to Gen Z." want spectacle. So, say hello to Gen Z." Do you think she's right? Is that true? Do you think she's right? Is that true? Do you think she's right? Is that true? I am utterly fascinated by this whole I am utterly fascinated by this whole I am utterly fascinated by this whole take, and I must have had 20 people send take, and I must have had 20 people send take, and I must have had 20 people send it to me right away after it published it to me right away after it published it to me right away after it published in the Washington Post, no doubt. And I in the Washington Post, no doubt. And I in the Washington Post, no doubt. And I I got to say I'm I'm pretty appreciative I got to say I'm I'm pretty appreciative I got to say I'm I'm pretty appreciative of the of the shout-out, and also of the of the of the shout-out, and also of the of the of the shout-out, and also of the young, restless, Roman. young, restless, Roman. young, restless, Roman. Um I think it actually fits perfectly Um I think it actually fits perfectly Um I think it actually fits perfectly within the paradigm within the paradigm within the paradigm that I was talking about of the Yes, that I was talking about of the Yes, that I was talking about of the Yes, it's young. Yes, it's restless, meaning it's young. Yes, it's restless, meaning it's young. Yes, it's restless, meaning she's pointing out the countercultural she's pointing out the countercultural she's pointing out the countercultural nature of this, the angsty nature of nature of this, the angsty nature of nature of this, the angsty nature of this, and then, of course, toward Rome this, and then, of course, toward Rome this, and then, of course, toward Rome instead of um toward reformed theology.

instead of um toward reformed theology. instead of um toward reformed theology. Um I do think there's a really big Um I do think there's a really big Um I do think there's a really big really big irony in this observation. really big irony in this observation. really big irony in this observation. Think it makes a lot of sense Think it makes a lot of sense Think it makes a lot of sense historically, historically, historically, but it seems to be the complete inverse, but it seems to be the complete inverse, but it seems to be the complete inverse, Sarah, of what we're actually seeing Sarah, of what we're actually seeing Sarah, of what we're actually seeing elsewhere and what we hear about all the elsewhere and what we hear about all the elsewhere and what we hear about all the time. time. time. That the Protestants who are becoming That the Protestants who are becoming That the Protestants who are becoming Catholic are far disproportionately Catholic are far disproportionately Catholic are far disproportionately intellectual, literary, and educated. intellectual, literary, and educated. intellectual, literary, and educated. And that the much bigger influx into the And that the much bigger influx into the And that the much bigger influx into the Protestant Church from the Catholic Protestant Church from the Catholic Protestant Church from the Catholic Church would be from the Church would be from the Church would be from the from the less educated groups. from the less educated groups. from the less educated groups. Um specifically, it's it's heavily Um specifically, it's it's heavily Um specifically, it's it's heavily Hispanic, that that migration from Hispanic, that that migration from Hispanic, that that migration from Catholic to Protestant. So, this seemed Catholic to Protestant. So, this seemed Catholic to Protestant. So, this seemed to be both fascinating from historical to be both fascinating from historical to be both fascinating from historical perspective because there is some perspective because there is some perspective because there is some absolute truth to what she talks about absolute truth to what she talks about absolute truth to what she talks about in terms of the iconoclastic in terms of the iconoclastic in terms of the iconoclastic um tear down and deconstruction of of um tear down and deconstruction of of um tear down and deconstruction of of the imagery and the pomp and the imagery and the pomp and the imagery and the pomp and circumstance and everything of the circumstance and everything of the circumstance and everything of the Catholic Church. Um she's spot-on with Catholic Church. Um she's spot-on with Catholic Church. Um she's spot-on with all of that, and also the significant all of that, and also the significant all of that, and also the significant role of the of literary culture in role of the of literary culture in role of the of literary culture in developing Protestantism, which is why I developing Protestantism, which is why I developing Protestantism, which is why I know you've written about this and know you've written about this and know you've written about this and observed this as well, Sarah, but the observed this as well, Sarah, but the observed this as well, Sarah, but the most literate countries in the world are most literate countries in the world are most literate countries in the world are all Protestant um by background. So, all Protestant um by background. So, all Protestant um by background. So, she's completely right about that, but she's completely right about that, but she's completely right about that, but yeah, absolutely fascinating to see that yeah, absolutely fascinating to see that yeah, absolutely fascinating to see that it's the inverse of the actual it's the inverse of the actual it's the inverse of the actual situations that we thought we were situations that we thought we were situations that we thought we were seeing, which is everybody who leaves

seeing, which is everybody who leaves seeing, which is everybody who leaves the Protestant Church to become Catholic the Protestant Church to become Catholic the Protestant Church to become Catholic is obligated, apparently, to write a is obligated, apparently, to write a is obligated, apparently, to write a book about the experience. book about the experience. book about the experience. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. We're just reading those books of those We're just reading those books of those We're just reading those books of those guys. guys. guys. Um it was also interesting cuz I was Um it was also interesting cuz I was Um it was also interesting cuz I was thinking that the people every the the thinking that the people every the the thinking that the people every the the exodus toward Catholicism was because it exodus toward Catholicism was because it exodus toward Catholicism was because it was so tangible. was so tangible. was so tangible. All the smells, the rosary, the things All the smells, the rosary, the things All the smells, the rosary, the things you could touch, you can light the you could touch, you can light the you could touch, you can light the candle. And so, I thought it was maybe candle. And so, I thought it was maybe candle. And so, I thought it was maybe they it was a reach toward something they it was a reach toward something they it was a reach toward something ancient and rooted. Um and this seems to ancient and rooted. Um and this seems to ancient and rooted. Um and this seems to I mean, it sort of goes along with what I mean, it sort of goes along with what I mean, it sort of goes along with what she's saying. Um but she's also pointing she's saying. Um but she's also pointing she's saying. Um but she's also pointing out like how the how the fresh how the out like how the how the fresh how the out like how the how the fresh how the modernity of it, right? The newness. It modernity of it, right? The newness. It modernity of it, right? The newness. It just plays so well on a on a screen. just plays so well on a on a screen. just plays so well on a on a screen. Even though it's the physical thing Even though it's the physical thing Even though it's the physical thing um that they're grap um that they're grap um that they're grap grabbing for. Yeah. grabbing for. Yeah. grabbing for. Yeah. >> I thought the most fascinating >> I thought the most fascinating >> I thought the most fascinating observation she made in there was about observation she made in there was about observation she made in there was about how Instagram and TikTok are for how Instagram and TikTok are for how Instagram and TikTok are for Catholics. Catholics. Catholics. Now, that is pretty interesting because Now, that is pretty interesting because Now, that is pretty interesting because a lot of what we do on Instagram is take a lot of what we do on Instagram is take a lot of what we do on Instagram is take pictures of us reading Bibles.

pictures of us reading Bibles. pictures of us reading Bibles. Or we put words on Instagram, or at TGC Or we put words on Instagram, or at TGC Or we put words on Instagram, or at TGC on TikTok, we think, "What would we do on TikTok, we think, "What would we do on TikTok, we think, "What would we do on TikTok?" There's only one thing, on TikTok?" There's only one thing, on TikTok?" There's only one thing, Sarah, we've ever thought we could do on Sarah, we've ever thought we could do on Sarah, we've ever thought we could do on TikTok. And that's BookTok, to feature TikTok. And that's BookTok, to feature TikTok. And that's BookTok, to feature [laughter] books All right. [laughter] books All right. [laughter] books All right. So, so in some sense, I got to say this So, so in some sense, I got to say this So, so in some sense, I got to say this is pretty much guilty as charged. is pretty much guilty as charged. is pretty much guilty as charged. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] I don't know exactly how to translate I don't know exactly how to translate I don't know exactly how to translate Protestantism into those dominant visual Protestantism into those dominant visual Protestantism into those dominant visual media. Um media. Um media. Um But I think And And I don't know if if But I think And And I don't know if if But I think And And I don't know if if you ever saw this picture, but Ross you ever saw this picture, but Ross you ever saw this picture, but Ross Douthat had shared it, and other other Douthat had shared it, and other other Douthat had shared it, and other other people have shared it, but it was a people have shared it, but it was a people have shared it, but it was a picture of from the Vatican on Good picture of from the Vatican on Good picture of from the Vatican on Good Friday with with the Pope. Friday with with the Pope. Friday with with the Pope. And the Pope was surrounded with And the Pope was surrounded with And the Pope was surrounded with everything was dark, and the Pope was everything was dark, and the Pope was everything was dark, and the Pope was surrounded by these people carrying surrounded by these people carrying surrounded by these people carrying torches. torches. torches. And you thought, "Oh, this actually is And you thought, "Oh, this actually is And you thought, "Oh, this actually is pretty cool. pretty cool. pretty cool. This looks pretty This looks pretty, you This looks pretty This looks pretty, you This looks pretty This looks pretty, you know, amazing and very arresting." And know, amazing and very arresting." And know, amazing and very arresting." And then you could look at that, and and then you could look at that, and and then you could look at that, and and that's I mean, just visually, that's I mean, just visually, that's I mean, just visually, you don't know what is it exactly you don't know what is it exactly you don't know what is it exactly communicating, communicating, communicating, but participating in a spectacle but participating in a spectacle but participating in a spectacle and feeling like, "Wow, I bet the and feeling like, "Wow, I bet the and feeling like, "Wow, I bet the spiritual energy in the Vatican would spiritual energy in the Vatican would spiritual energy in the Vatican would have been have been have been electric at that time and that setting."

electric at that time and that setting." electric at that time and that setting." Oh. Absolutely. I I I can see that as Oh. Absolutely. I I I can see that as Oh. Absolutely. I I I can see that as well. well. well. But my my mind then goes to But my my mind then goes to But my my mind then goes to any Good Friday service and preaching any Good Friday service and preaching any Good Friday service and preaching about the crucifixion and the redemption about the crucifixion and the redemption about the crucifixion and the redemption of Christ, and then singing a song of Christ, and then singing a song of Christ, and then singing a song together like My Song Is Love Unknown, together like My Song Is Love Unknown, together like My Song Is Love Unknown, one of my all-time favorite, especially one of my all-time favorite, especially one of my all-time favorite, especially for Good Friday. I mean, that that's for Good Friday. I mean, that that's for Good Friday. I mean, that that's what would be really exciting to me, and what would be really exciting to me, and what would be really exciting to me, and I think to a lot of other people, but I think to a lot of other people, but I think to a lot of other people, but when you think about what translates when you think about what translates when you think about what translates well well well to Instagram and TikTok, to Instagram and TikTok, to Instagram and TikTok, yeah, score one for the Catholics. They yeah, score one for the Catholics. They yeah, score one for the Catholics. They got the better visuals. That's got the better visuals. That's got the better visuals. That's definitely true. definitely true. definitely true. Let's talk a little bit about the wider Let's talk a little bit about the wider Let's talk a little bit about the wider trend that she's noticing, right? So, trend that she's noticing, right? So, trend that she's noticing, right? So, you watched the young, restless, and you watched the young, restless, and you watched the young, restless, and reformed movement from the beginning. Um reformed movement from the beginning. Um reformed movement from the beginning. Um do Does this look to you like the do Does this look to you like the do Does this look to you like the beginning of a movement that is that is beginning of a movement that is that is beginning of a movement that is that is similar to that? Or what What are the similar to that? Or what What are the similar to that? Or what What are the the differences that you see and the the differences that you see and the the differences that you see and the similarities that you see? similarities that you see? similarities that you see? >> I do I do think it's similar because >> I do I do think it's similar because >> I do I do think it's similar because you've got a lot of cage stage going on. you've got a lot of cage stage going on. you've got a lot of cage stage going on. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] You've got a lot of people who are You've got a lot of people who are You've got a lot of people who are taking immediately to social media to taking immediately to social media to taking immediately to social media to try to convert everybody and are try to convert everybody and are try to convert everybody and are convinced that they never actually heard convinced that they never actually heard convinced that they never actually heard anything of the gospel while they were anything of the gospel while they were anything of the gospel while they were in the Protestant Church, and nobody in the Protestant Church, and nobody in the Protestant Church, and nobody ever talked to them about all the things ever talked to them about all the things ever talked to them about all the things that the Catholics know, and now that the Catholics know, and now that the Catholics know, and now everybody has an apologetic, you know, everybody has an apologetic, you know, everybody has an apologetic, you know, Catholic apologetic YouTube channel to Catholic apologetic YouTube channel to Catholic apologetic YouTube channel to be able to tear down the Protestant be able to tear down the Protestant be able to tear down the Protestant views. Oh, yeah.

views. Oh, yeah. views. Oh, yeah. That [laughter] sounds pretty familiar. That [laughter] sounds pretty familiar. That [laughter] sounds pretty familiar. That sounds That sounds like [snorts] That sounds That sounds like [snorts] That sounds That sounds like [snorts] uh blogs circa 2007 and 2008 and 9 and uh blogs circa 2007 and 2008 and 9 and uh blogs circa 2007 and 2008 and 9 and 10. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of 10. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of 10. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of lot of similarity there. I would say lot of similarity there. I would say lot of similarity there. I would say there's a an additional similarity, there's a an additional similarity, there's a an additional similarity, though, if you fast-forward into the though, if you fast-forward into the though, if you fast-forward into the 2010s and especially into the 2020s, 2010s and especially into the 2020s, 2010s and especially into the 2020s, and that is that both movements have and that is that both movements have and that is that both movements have expressions that are very much focused expressions that are very much focused expressions that are very much focused on the political. on the political. on the political. Um you can you can look at the way that Um you can you can look at the way that Um you can you can look at the way that a lot of people who've been involved in a lot of people who've been involved in a lot of people who've been involved in the young restless reformed have the young restless reformed have the young restless reformed have followed into various forms of Christian followed into various forms of Christian followed into various forms of Christian nationalism uh or following the teaching nationalism uh or following the teaching nationalism uh or following the teaching of Doug Wilson, people like that. Uh it of Doug Wilson, people like that. Uh it of Doug Wilson, people like that. Uh it is very similar in that a lot of the is very similar in that a lot of the is very similar in that a lot of the movement that that she's writing about movement that that she's writing about movement that that she's writing about that Julia is writing about here. I that Julia is writing about here. I that Julia is writing about here. I mean, she's an editor at First Things. mean, she's an editor at First Things. mean, she's an editor at First Things. Obviously has seen this quite a bit. Is Obviously has seen this quite a bit. Is Obviously has seen this quite a bit. Is a lot of that political outworking, and a lot of that political outworking, and a lot of that political outworking, and also adopting a lot of really unpopular also adopting a lot of really unpopular also adopting a lot of really unpopular political views, meaning especially political views, meaning especially political views, meaning especially post-liberal views in a sense that post-liberal views in a sense that post-liberal views in a sense that democracy is is is dead, and we need to democracy is is is dead, and we need to democracy is is is dead, and we need to get back to previous iterations. We have get back to previous iterations. We have get back to previous iterations. We have both that you you have those both that you you have those both that you you have those church-state combinations in both the church-state combinations in both the church-state combinations in both the reformed world, and also in the Catholic reformed world, and also in the Catholic reformed world, and also in the Catholic Church, of course. Now, the Catholic Church, of course. Now, the Catholic Church, of course. Now, the Catholic Church only formally made peace with Church only formally made peace with Church only formally made peace with democracy in the 1960s with the Second democracy in the 1960s with the Second democracy in the 1960s with the Second Vatican Council. So, this may be in some Vatican Council. So, this may be in some Vatican Council. So, this may be in some ways less of a surprise uh with with ways less of a surprise uh with with ways less of a surprise uh with with Catholics, and maybe that's kind of what Catholics, and maybe that's kind of what Catholics, and maybe that's kind of what they see as some of the pushback against

they see as some of the pushback against they see as some of the pushback against how they may have seen Protestantism how they may have seen Protestantism how they may have seen Protestantism lead into a kind of secular lead into a kind of secular lead into a kind of secular um um um secular public square. Uh that's a secular public square. Uh that's a secular public square. Uh that's a long-standing critique, but um yeah, long-standing critique, but um yeah, long-standing critique, but um yeah, definite similarities between the cage definite similarities between the cage definite similarities between the cage stage, and then more recently the the stage, and then more recently the the stage, and then more recently the the overwhelming interest in political overwhelming interest in political overwhelming interest in political theology and and exploring potentially theology and and exploring potentially theology and and exploring potentially very unpopular um but as a form of very unpopular um but as a form of very unpopular um but as a form of rebellion, Mhm. rebellion, Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> strong uh forms of anti-democratic >> strong uh forms of anti-democratic >> strong uh forms of anti-democratic politics. Yeah, that's interesting. politics. Yeah, that's interesting. politics. Yeah, that's interesting. Huh. Um another thing that strikes me Huh. Um another thing that strikes me Huh. Um another thing that strikes me about this is um about this is um about this is um Oh, I just lost it. Give me a second. I'll have him edit Give me a second. I'll have him edit this part. this part. this part. Oh, another thing that strikes me about Oh, another thing that strikes me about Oh, another thing that strikes me about this is a whole bunch of people who are this is a whole bunch of people who are this is a whole bunch of people who are punching above their weight in terms of punching above their weight in terms of punching above their weight in terms of the voice, right? And so you've got a the voice, right? And so you've got a the voice, right? And so you've got a very small population inside a larger very small population inside a larger very small population inside a larger population. So a little reform movement population. So a little reform movement population. So a little reform movement inside a huge evangelical movement or a inside a huge evangelical movement or a inside a huge evangelical movement or a little convert inside of a huge Catholic little convert inside of a huge Catholic little convert inside of a huge Catholic movement.

movement. movement. And yet their voices are so extremely And yet their voices are so extremely And yet their voices are so extremely loud it feels like and they probably are loud it feels like and they probably are loud it feels like and they probably are able to have just an outsize influence able to have just an outsize influence able to have just an outsize influence in and in how people think about things. in and in how people think about things. in and in how people think about things. Yeah. Uh, let's give us some examples Yeah. Uh, let's give us some examples Yeah. Uh, let's give us some examples there. So let's go back to the Young there. So let's go back to the Young there. So let's go back to the Young Restless Reformed. Restless Reformed. Restless Reformed. I claimed that this was a significant I claimed that this was a significant I claimed that this was a significant movement. I did not claim that it was movement. I did not claim that it was movement. I did not claim that it was the largest movement. the largest movement. the largest movement. I did not claim that it was a dominant I did not claim that it was a dominant I did not claim that it was a dominant expression that it was taking over expression that it was taking over expression that it was taking over everything. everything. everything. Um, plenty of people Willow Creek was Um, plenty of people Willow Creek was Um, plenty of people Willow Creek was still popular. Rick Warren was still still popular. Rick Warren was still still popular. Rick Warren was still popular. Jesus Calling was still popular. Jesus Calling was still popular. Jesus Calling was still popular. popular. popular. I mean you can look at all sorts of I mean you can look at all sorts of I mean you can look at all sorts of different counter-trends. More than different counter-trends. More than different counter-trends. More than anything else, the non-denominational anything else, the non-denominational anything else, the non-denominational seeker-oriented charismatic megachurch seeker-oriented charismatic megachurch seeker-oriented charismatic megachurch probably the most significant probably the most significant probably the most significant phenomenon that you and I talked about phenomenon that you and I talked about phenomenon that you and I talked about on my Gospelbound podcast the last 25 on my Gospelbound podcast the last 25 on my Gospelbound podcast the last 25 years in terms of in terms of the years in terms of in terms of the years in terms of in terms of the church. So in some sense we're really church. So in some sense we're really church. So in some sense we're really talking about a subset of people talking about a subset of people talking about a subset of people who who who think enough about the church and think enough about the church and think enough about the church and theology to opt into something that theology to opt into something that theology to opt into something that requires requires requires significant academic at some level significant academic at some level significant academic at some level ascent.

ascent. ascent. And in both cases we're both we're And in both cases we're both we're And in both cases we're both we're getting wiped out by Pentecostals getting wiped out by Pentecostals getting wiped out by Pentecostals >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> that are growing a lot more >> that are growing a lot more >> that are growing a lot more among a wider variety of people because among a wider variety of people because among a wider variety of people because the overall shift is five times larger the overall shift is five times larger the overall shift is five times larger from the Protestant from the Catholic from the Protestant from the Catholic from the Protestant from the Catholic Church to the Protestant Church than Church to the Protestant Church than Church to the Protestant Church than from the Catholic from the from the Catholic from the from the Catholic from the Anyway, so there's five times more Anyway, so there's five times more Anyway, so there's five times more people going into the Protestant Church people going into the Protestant Church people going into the Protestant Church from Catholic than Catholic Protestant from Catholic than Catholic Protestant from Catholic than Catholic Protestant into Catholic. So into Catholic. So into Catholic. So that's similar to what I'm talking that's similar to what I'm talking that's similar to what I'm talking about. This like you said it's an about. This like you said it's an about. This like you said it's an outsized influence. I think it's a lot outsized influence. I think it's a lot outsized influence. I think it's a lot because contrary to what Julia's talking because contrary to what Julia's talking because contrary to what Julia's talking about here, about here, about here, it is the case that so many of the it is the case that so many of the it is the case that so many of the people who are converting are very people who are converting are very people who are converting are very literary and public focused and care literary and public focused and care literary and public focused and care enough about their faith to be able to enough about their faith to be able to enough about their faith to be able to express it on social media as express it on social media as express it on social media as influencers just like a previous influencers just like a previous influencers just like a previous generation was doing this on blogs and generation was doing this on blogs and generation was doing this on blogs and and podcasts and writing books as well. and podcasts and writing books as well. and podcasts and writing books as well. Things like that. So Things like that. So Things like that. So yeah, some yeah, some yeah, some again, very similar dynamics there with again, very similar dynamics there with again, very similar dynamics there with the outsized influence and where overall the outsized influence and where overall the outsized influence and where overall much bigger trends than either one of much bigger trends than either one of much bigger trends than either one of these expressions. Yeah, I got one more these expressions. Yeah, I got one more these expressions. Yeah, I got one more question for you about this which is question for you about this which is question for you about this which is the Young Restless Reformed movement the Young Restless Reformed movement the Young Restless Reformed movement mostly took place in the like the 2000s, mostly took place in the like the 2000s, mostly took place in the like the 2000s, the 2010s. Sometimes we hear like people the 2010s. Sometimes we hear like people the 2010s. Sometimes we hear like people think this is over. It's you know, it's think this is over. It's you know, it's think this is over. It's you know, it's done we're done with that. But you and I done we're done with that. But you and I done we're done with that. But you and I sit in the middle of it and so we see sit in the middle of it and so we see sit in the middle of it and so we see and continue to see and continue to see and continue to see Reformed theology make a big difference Reformed theology make a big difference Reformed theology make a big difference and flourish across the whole globe. Do

and flourish across the whole globe. Do and flourish across the whole globe. Do you think this trend toward Catholicism you think this trend toward Catholicism you think this trend toward Catholicism will bear fruit like that? will bear fruit like that? will bear fruit like that? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Well, I I do think so. Here's what I Well, I I do think so. Here's what I Well, I I do think so. Here's what I mean about it. mean about it. mean about it. Insofar as the Catholic Church continues Insofar as the Catholic Church continues Insofar as the Catholic Church continues to be a significant factor in to be a significant factor in to be a significant factor in let's just say American life, let's just say American life, let's just say American life, it'll be primarily fueled by these it'll be primarily fueled by these it'll be primarily fueled by these people who take their faith so seriously people who take their faith so seriously people who take their faith so seriously that they believe that it should be that they believe that it should be that they believe that it should be demonstrated publicly and also even demonstrated publicly and also even demonstrated publicly and also even propagated to other people. The propagated to other people. The propagated to other people. The significant divide that we're seeing significant divide that we're seeing significant divide that we're seeing across the board is a decline of people across the board is a decline of people across the board is a decline of people who don't take their faith seriously at who don't take their faith seriously at who don't take their faith seriously at all. Those are the de-churching. Those all. Those are the de-churching. Those all. Those are the de-churching. Those are the are the are the Again, the Catholics have been decimated Again, the Catholics have been decimated Again, the Catholics have been decimated by de-churching far more than by de-churching far more than by de-churching far more than evangelical Protestants have. And so evangelical Protestants have. And so evangelical Protestants have. And so those cultural connections that have those cultural connections that have those cultural connections that have been so strong been so strong been so strong in the Protestant Church certainly, but in the Protestant Church certainly, but in the Protestant Church certainly, but especially in the Catholic Church with especially in the Catholic Church with especially in the Catholic Church with its deep ethnic connections and national its deep ethnic connections and national its deep ethnic connections and national connections those have been evaporating connections those have been evaporating connections those have been evaporating for decades and that that acceleration for decades and that that acceleration for decades and that that acceleration has continued. So has continued. So has continued. So when you look at the health of when you look at the health of when you look at the health of individual parishes, you look at the the individual parishes, you look at the the individual parishes, you look at the the health of individual health of individual health of individual you know, dioceses, you look at the you know, dioceses, you look at the you know, dioceses, you look at the number of vocations that are being number of vocations that are being number of vocations that are being adopted adopted adopted by younger Catholics, people becoming by younger Catholics, people becoming by younger Catholics, people becoming priests, becoming nuns, things like priests, becoming nuns, things like priests, becoming nuns, things like that. That's that. That's that. That's those are people who take their faith those are people who take their faith those are people who take their faith very seriously. Those are in many ways very seriously. Those are in many ways very seriously. Those are in many ways also populated by the the people who are

also populated by the the people who are also populated by the the people who are converts in. converts in. converts in. And it's often the case that people who And it's often the case that people who And it's often the case that people who are the converts in who know more about are the converts in who know more about are the converts in who know more about that church than the ones who've been that church than the ones who've been that church than the ones who've been there the entire time. Sarah, is there there the entire time. Sarah, is there there the entire time. Sarah, is there not a parallel here with the Dutch? not a parallel here with the Dutch? not a parallel here with the Dutch? A lot of time people who knew a lot more A lot of time people who knew a lot more A lot of time people who knew a lot more about Reformed theology coming in from about Reformed theology coming in from about Reformed theology coming in from the outside than people who were Dutch the outside than people who were Dutch the outside than people who were Dutch who'd been raised in the entire thing. who'd been raised in the entire thing. who'd been raised in the entire thing. So I think there's a but you need that So I think there's a but you need that So I think there's a but you need that renewal theologically and just renewal theologically and just renewal theologically and just devotionally to be able to sustain a devotionally to be able to sustain a devotionally to be able to sustain a church across the generations. So yeah, church across the generations. So yeah, church across the generations. So yeah, I think that's another parallel and I I think that's another parallel and I I think that's another parallel and I think it will be a significant factor think it will be a significant factor think it will be a significant factor because because because if you're younger and still Catholic if you're younger and still Catholic if you're younger and still Catholic you're much more likely to be more you're much more likely to be more you're much more likely to be more conservative than older generations and conservative than older generations and conservative than older generations and more engaged with your faith. And if more engaged with your faith. And if more engaged with your faith. And if you're not, you just disappear you're not, you just disappear you're not, you just disappear altogether. We've seen that a lot across altogether. We've seen that a lot across altogether. We've seen that a lot across the board in religion. Certainly the board in religion. Certainly the board in religion. Certainly happening in the Catholic Church.