Bart Ehrman Was My Professor. Here's Why His Criticisms Aren't Compelling (Michael Kruger)

Around 30 years ago, Ehrman Around 30 years ago, Ehrman deconstructed completely. And these deconstructed completely. And these deconstructed completely. And these days, he writes and teaches on why the days, he writes and teaches on why the days, he writes and teaches on why the New Testament is riddled with errors, New Testament is riddled with errors, New Testament is riddled with errors, why God cannot exist, and why despite why God cannot exist, and why despite why God cannot exist, and why despite all that, Jesus had some pretty good all that, Jesus had some pretty good all that, Jesus had some pretty good teachings. teachings. teachings. I'm Sara Zieslstra, and I am here to I'm Sara Zieslstra, and I am here to I'm Sara Zieslstra, and I am here to talk with Mike Kruger about that. Mike talk with Mike Kruger about that. Mike talk with Mike Kruger about that. Mike is also a New Testament scholar who is also a New Testament scholar who is also a New Testament scholar who teaches at Reformed Theological teaches at Reformed Theological teaches at Reformed Theological Seminary. His research has focused on Seminary. His research has focused on Seminary. His research has focused on the transmission of the New Testament the transmission of the New Testament the transmission of the New Testament text and the development of the New text and the development of the New text and the development of the New Testament canon. And one reason he does Testament canon. And one reason he does Testament canon. And one reason he does that is because long ago, he was sitting that is because long ago, he was sitting that is because long ago, he was sitting in a freshman class at the University of in a freshman class at the University of in a freshman class at the University of North Carolina and Bart Ehrman was his North Carolina and Bart Ehrman was his North Carolina and Bart Ehrman was his professor. professor. professor. Mike, can you tell us that story? Mike, can you tell us that story? Mike, can you tell us that story? Yeah, thanks Sara. Great to be with you. Yeah, thanks Sara. Great to be with you. Yeah, thanks Sara. Great to be with you. Excited for this conversation. Yeah, Excited for this conversation. Yeah, Excited for this conversation. Yeah, that story was a very formative story that story was a very formative story that story was a very formative story for me growing up and I mention it in my for me growing up and I mention it in my for me growing up and I mention it in my book Surviving Religion 101. Um, it's book Surviving Religion 101. Um, it's book Surviving Religion 101. Um, it's actually not a story I'm sure that was actually not a story I'm sure that was actually not a story I'm sure that was unique to me. Uh, hundreds and hundreds unique to me. Uh, hundreds and hundreds unique to me. Uh, hundreds and hundreds of students have taken Bart's classes of students have taken Bart's classes of students have taken Bart's classes over the years. over the years. over the years. Um, but maybe it's unique to me in the Um, but maybe it's unique to me in the Um, but maybe it's unique to me in the sense that not all of them have gone on sense that not all of them have gone on sense that not all of them have gone on to become biblical scholars themselves to become biblical scholars themselves to become biblical scholars themselves in the exact same field of course that in the exact same field of course that in the exact same field of course that Bart Ehrman teaches in. So, yeah, years Bart Ehrman teaches in. So, yeah, years Bart Ehrman teaches in. So, yeah, years ago I showed up at the University of ago I showed up at the University of ago I showed up at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill as a North Carolina in Chapel Hill as a North Carolina in Chapel Hill as a freshman and freshman and freshman and my background is I grew up in a my background is I grew up in a my background is I grew up in a Christian home and was a committed Christian home and was a committed Christian home and was a committed believer and wanted to do my best to believer and wanted to do my best to believer and wanted to do my best to live out a Christian life at UNC and live out a Christian life at UNC and live out a Christian life at UNC and I thought I was pretty ready as I could I thought I was pretty ready as I could I thought I was pretty ready as I could major such things. I'd grown up in a major such things. I'd grown up in a major such things. I'd grown up in a youth group that seemed solid and people youth group that seemed solid and people youth group that seemed solid and people gave me good advice about how to survive gave me good advice about how to survive gave me good advice about how to survive in college and then in college and then in college and then my freshman year I needed to fill a my freshman year I needed to fill a my freshman year I needed to fill a religion credit because in the days of

religion credit because in the days of religion credit because in the days of uh, back then in Chapel Hill you had to uh, back then in Chapel Hill you had to uh, back then in Chapel Hill you had to have a certain amount of religion have a certain amount of religion have a certain amount of religion credits to get your your your liberal credits to get your your your liberal credits to get your your your liberal arts degree. arts degree. arts degree. And so I I scrolled through the catalog And so I I scrolled through the catalog And so I I scrolled through the catalog and yes, it was a catalog back then, not and yes, it was a catalog back then, not and yes, it was a catalog back then, not not uh, online. And uh, there was a not uh, online. And uh, there was a not uh, online. And uh, there was a class called Introduction to the New class called Introduction to the New class called Introduction to the New Testament. Testament. Testament. And I didn't even mention the And I didn't even mention the And I didn't even mention the professor's name. I was like, well, this professor's name. I was like, well, this professor's name. I was like, well, this sounds good, so I'll take this and the sounds good, so I'll take this and the sounds good, so I'll take this and the very first day of class, it was it very first day of class, it was it very first day of class, it was it started off very fast. Um, I could tell started off very fast. Um, I could tell started off very fast. Um, I could tell right out of the gate that this right out of the gate that this right out of the gate that this professor lectured with an eye to professor lectured with an eye to professor lectured with an eye to evangelicals. Said he was once an evangelicals. Said he was once an evangelicals. Said he was once an evangelical, said I used to believe what evangelical, said I used to believe what evangelical, said I used to believe what you believe, used to be sitting right you believe, used to be sitting right you believe, used to be sitting right where you are and I used to be a where you are and I used to be a where you are and I used to be a fundamentalist Christian and then I went fundamentalist Christian and then I went fundamentalist Christian and then I went on to get my my master's and my PhD and on to get my my master's and my PhD and on to get my my master's and my PhD and I realized the Bible's full of mistakes I realized the Bible's full of mistakes I realized the Bible's full of mistakes and errors and contradictions and and errors and contradictions and and errors and contradictions and problems and fabrications and hasn't problems and fabrications and hasn't problems and fabrications and hasn't been transmitted reliably by scribes. been transmitted reliably by scribes. been transmitted reliably by scribes. And uh, this whole class is going to be And uh, this whole class is going to be And uh, this whole class is going to be about basically that collection of about basically that collection of about basically that collection of writings we call the New Testament and writings we call the New Testament and writings we call the New Testament and and why he's reached the conclusions and why he's reached the conclusions and why he's reached the conclusions he's reached. And I sat there thinking, he's reached. And I sat there thinking, he's reached. And I sat there thinking, wow, what have I got myself into? wow, what have I got myself into? wow, what have I got myself into? And as you noted, I didn't know at the And as you noted, I didn't know at the And as you noted, I didn't know at the time who he was, but this was of course time who he was, but this was of course time who he was, but this was of course Bart Ehrman. Bart Ehrman. Bart Ehrman. And uh, now he's written over 30 books, And uh, now he's written over 30 books, And uh, now he's written over 30 books, many New York Times bestsellers and at many New York Times bestsellers and at many New York Times bestsellers and at the time he was a brand new professor.

the time he was a brand new professor. the time he was a brand new professor. I'm guessing he was I'm guessing he was I'm guessing he was 30? 30? 30? Um, 32? I don't remember the exact age. Um, 32? I don't remember the exact age. Um, 32? I don't remember the exact age. But uh, yeah, it was one of those crisis But uh, yeah, it was one of those crisis But uh, yeah, it was one of those crisis moments where I thought to myself, wow, moments where I thought to myself, wow, moments where I thought to myself, wow, maybe everything I've ever believed is a maybe everything I've ever believed is a maybe everything I've ever believed is a lie. And uh, it sent me on a on an lie. And uh, it sent me on a on an lie. And uh, it sent me on a on an academic journey that academic journey that academic journey that at the end of it all, uh, ended up where at the end of it all, uh, ended up where at the end of it all, uh, ended up where now I'm a professor and a New Testament now I'm a professor and a New Testament now I'm a professor and a New Testament scholar myself and I deal with the scholar myself and I deal with the scholar myself and I deal with the precise same topics that I learned in precise same topics that I learned in precise same topics that I learned in that class. that class. that class. It's so interesting that he was he then It's so interesting that he was he then It's so interesting that he was he then became an evangelist for atheism. Um, so became an evangelist for atheism. Um, so became an evangelist for atheism. Um, so he wasn't just content to let you make he wasn't just content to let you make he wasn't just content to let you make your own decisions, but he was his your own decisions, but he was his your own decisions, but he was his desire was to convince you that the desire was to convince you that the desire was to convince you that the Bible was wrong. Yeah, this is one of Bible was wrong. Yeah, this is one of Bible was wrong. Yeah, this is one of the curious things about Bart's journey the curious things about Bart's journey the curious things about Bart's journey is it sometimes if someone deconstructs is it sometimes if someone deconstructs is it sometimes if someone deconstructs from their faith, they kind of do it from their faith, they kind of do it from their faith, they kind of do it quietly and go about their business and quietly and go about their business and quietly and go about their business and and live their life. I think what made and live their life. I think what made and live their life. I think what made his situation unique was that he was a his situation unique was that he was a his situation unique was that he was a professor of New Testament. So, when you professor of New Testament. So, when you professor of New Testament. So, when you deconstruct as a professor of New deconstruct as a professor of New deconstruct as a professor of New Testament, now you're talking about the Testament, now you're talking about the Testament, now you're talking about the New Testament. You can't help but talk New Testament. You can't help but talk New Testament. You can't help but talk about the very things that you about the very things that you about the very things that you deconstructed from all the time. And so, deconstructed from all the time. And so, deconstructed from all the time. And so, many have characterized him as still you many have characterized him as still you many have characterized him as still you know, evangelical, but now maybe in the know, evangelical, but now maybe in the know, evangelical, but now maybe in the opposite direction. So, in many of opposite direction. So, in many of opposite direction. So, in many of Ehrman's writings, he cast significant Ehrman's writings, he cast significant Ehrman's writings, he cast significant um, doubt on the trustworthiness of the um, doubt on the trustworthiness of the um, doubt on the trustworthiness of the Gospels. Here's where we're going to get Gospels. Here's where we're going to get Gospels. Here's where we're going to get to your sweet spot. Um, in his interview to your sweet spot. Um, in his interview to your sweet spot. Um, in his interview with Dalferth, he mentioned three with Dalferth, he mentioned three with Dalferth, he mentioned three reasons why he doesn't trust the Gospels reasons why he doesn't trust the Gospels reasons why he doesn't trust the Gospels to be accurate. You've probably heard to be accurate. You've probably heard to be accurate. You've probably heard them before. Um, and I want to ask you them before. Um, and I want to ask you them before. Um, and I want to ask you about that.

about that. about that. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I'm going to ask you about each one of >> I'm going to ask you about each one of >> I'm going to ask you about each one of them. I love it. Fine. them. I love it. Fine. them. I love it. Fine. Yep. The first thing he lays out is he Yep. The first thing he lays out is he Yep. The first thing he lays out is he says, hey, there are contradictions says, hey, there are contradictions says, hey, there are contradictions between the Gospels, right? And one of between the Gospels, right? And one of between the Gospels, right? And one of his favorite examples is a is in Mark, his favorite examples is a is in Mark, his favorite examples is a is in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover meal with his Jesus eats the Passover meal with his Jesus eats the Passover meal with his disciples and then he's arrested that disciples and then he's arrested that disciples and then he's arrested that night and then he is crucified in the night and then he is crucified in the night and then he is crucified in the morning. morning. morning. But in John, it says that Jesus was But in John, it says that Jesus was But in John, it says that Jesus was brought out by Pilate to the people brought out by Pilate to the people brought out by Pilate to the people where he presented him to the people and where he presented him to the people and where he presented him to the people and said, you vote, and they yelled, said, you vote, and they yelled, said, you vote, and they yelled, "Crucify him!" on the day of preparation "Crucify him!" on the day of preparation "Crucify him!" on the day of preparation for the Passover, which would have dated for the Passover, which would have dated for the Passover, which would have dated it a day before that Mark says. So, it a day before that Mark says. So, it a day before that Mark says. So, doesn't this seem like there's a a big doesn't this seem like there's a a big doesn't this seem like there's a a big discrepancy between those or how how can discrepancy between those or how how can discrepancy between those or how how can we think about biblical contradictions we think about biblical contradictions we think about biblical contradictions like this? like this? like this? Yeah, I can still remember this in my Yeah, I can still remember this in my Yeah, I can still remember this in my freshman religion class at UNC Chapel freshman religion class at UNC Chapel freshman religion class at UNC Chapel Hill. Uh, you know, the repertoire of of Hill. Uh, you know, the repertoire of of Hill. Uh, you know, the repertoire of of apparent contradictions hasn't changed apparent contradictions hasn't changed apparent contradictions hasn't changed much in in 30 years and I know this is much in in 30 years and I know this is much in in 30 years and I know this is one of his go-to favorites. And he's got one of his go-to favorites. And he's got one of his go-to favorites. And he's got others, too, I'm sure and I've read and others, too, I'm sure and I've read and others, too, I'm sure and I've read and actually reviewed his book Jesus actually reviewed his book Jesus actually reviewed his book Jesus Interrupted for those who want to read Interrupted for those who want to read Interrupted for those who want to read more about his claim about more about his claim about more about his claim about contradictions and some of my rebuttals, contradictions and some of my rebuttals, contradictions and some of my rebuttals, so you can find that review.

so you can find that review. so you can find that review. Um, but this is his favorite. I hear Um, but this is his favorite. I hear Um, but this is his favorite. I hear them him mention this as one of his top them him mention this as one of his top them him mention this as one of his top examples. I have to admit I'm a little examples. I have to admit I'm a little examples. I have to admit I'm a little befuddled by that. You know, of all the befuddled by that. You know, of all the befuddled by that. You know, of all the examples to pick, I just don't find this examples to pick, I just don't find this examples to pick, I just don't find this one persuasive. Um, I understand where one persuasive. Um, I understand where one persuasive. Um, I understand where he's coming from, but I think the he's coming from, but I think the he's coming from, but I think the evidence that Jesus is crucified on a evidence that Jesus is crucified on a evidence that Jesus is crucified on a different day of the Jewish calendar in different day of the Jewish calendar in different day of the Jewish calendar in the Gospel of John is actually the Gospel of John is actually the Gospel of John is actually relatively thin. His argument, as you relatively thin. His argument, as you relatively thin. His argument, as you indicated, is that in the synoptics, the indicated, is that in the synoptics, the indicated, is that in the synoptics, the Passover lambs are sacrificed on a Passover lambs are sacrificed on a Passover lambs are sacrificed on a Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, so they could eat the meal that night so they could eat the meal that night so they could eat the meal that night and then Jesus himself dies on a Friday, and then Jesus himself dies on a Friday, and then Jesus himself dies on a Friday, um, which is after the Passover. But um, which is after the Passover. But um, which is after the Passover. But according to Ehrman in John, uh, the according to Ehrman in John, uh, the according to Ehrman in John, uh, the meal they eat on Thursday night is not meal they eat on Thursday night is not meal they eat on Thursday night is not the Passover meal because the lambs are the Passover meal because the lambs are the Passover meal because the lambs are actually sacrificed on that Friday, the actually sacrificed on that Friday, the actually sacrificed on that Friday, the same moment in which Jesus is dying. same moment in which Jesus is dying. same moment in which Jesus is dying. But the evidence of this is pretty thin. But the evidence of this is pretty thin. But the evidence of this is pretty thin. One of the pieces of evidence appealed One of the pieces of evidence appealed One of the pieces of evidence appealed to is that John the Baptist in John to is that John the Baptist in John to is that John the Baptist in John calls Jesus the Lamb of God. calls Jesus the Lamb of God. calls Jesus the Lamb of God. Ok, Ok, Ok, um, theologically, practically, uh, um, theologically, practically, uh, um, theologically, practically, uh, sacrificially, he is the Lamb of God. I sacrificially, he is the Lamb of God. I sacrificially, he is the Lamb of God. I don't know that that's a swing vote for don't know that that's a swing vote for don't know that that's a swing vote for a different day. a different day. a different day. Uh, secondly, he argues that in John 13, Uh, secondly, he argues that in John 13, Uh, secondly, he argues that in John 13, that that there's no institution of the that that there's no institution of the that that there's no institution of the Lord's Supper. They have a last meal Lord's Supper. They have a last meal Lord's Supper. They have a last meal together, but they don't show the bread together, but they don't show the bread together, but they don't show the bread and the wine.

and the wine. and the wine. Ok, but John leaves out lots of things Ok, but John leaves out lots of things Ok, but John leaves out lots of things in his Gospel. John was the last Gospel in his Gospel. John was the last Gospel in his Gospel. John was the last Gospel written. He wasn't rehashing everything written. He wasn't rehashing everything written. He wasn't rehashing everything in the first Gospels. in the first Gospels. in the first Gospels. If that that's not the only thing that If that that's not the only thing that If that that's not the only thing that he he omits. So, but omission doesn't he he omits. So, but omission doesn't he he omits. So, but omission doesn't mean that he denies that it happened. He mean that he denies that it happened. He mean that he denies that it happened. He had a different purpose in describing had a different purpose in describing had a different purpose in describing what happened at that final meal. what happened at that final meal. what happened at that final meal. The real thing hinges on one verse, The real thing hinges on one verse, The real thing hinges on one verse, actually, and that's John 19:14 where it actually, and that's John 19:14 where it actually, and that's John 19:14 where it talks about the preparation of the talks about the preparation of the talks about the preparation of the Passover. Passover. Passover. Uh, paraskeuē, I think, to pascha here Uh, paraskeuē, I think, to pascha here Uh, paraskeuē, I think, to pascha here in the Greek. in the Greek. in the Greek. Um, which basically can be taken in two Um, which basically can be taken in two Um, which basically can be taken in two different ways. One could be it's the different ways. One could be it's the different ways. One could be it's the preparation of the Passover lamb. preparation of the Passover lamb. preparation of the Passover lamb. That would prove Ehrman's view. That would prove Ehrman's view. That would prove Ehrman's view. The second way to take that phrase is The second way to take that phrase is The second way to take that phrase is the preparation day of Passover week, the preparation day of Passover week, the preparation day of Passover week, which is just the preparation for the which is just the preparation for the which is just the preparation for the Sabbath, which is the next day. Sabbath, which is the next day. Sabbath, which is the next day. Um, I think the passage can be taken Um, I think the passage can be taken Um, I think the passage can be taken there any either way, but I don't see a there any either way, but I don't see a there any either way, but I don't see a reason why it has to be taken the way he reason why it has to be taken the way he reason why it has to be taken the way he suggested. I think the the term suggested. I think the the term suggested. I think the the term preparation day is a very common term preparation day is a very common term preparation day is a very common term for Friday for Friday for Friday in the Jewish calendar because of the in the Jewish calendar because of the in the Jewish calendar because of the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday. Jewish Sabbath on Saturday. Jewish Sabbath on Saturday. So, it's interesting theory. So, it's interesting theory. So, it's interesting theory. Um, Um, Um, you know, I understand why he could read you know, I understand why he could read you know, I understand why he could read it that way. Does it have to be read it that way. Does it have to be read it that way. Does it have to be read that way? Not at all. In fact, of all that way? Not at all. In fact, of all that way? Not at all. In fact, of all the supposed contradictions, I find that the supposed contradictions, I find that the supposed contradictions, I find that one of the least compelling. But here's one of the least compelling. But here's one of the least compelling. But here's the point. He he he puts a lot of weight the point. He he he puts a lot of weight the point. He he he puts a lot of weight on these apparent contradictions. I on these apparent contradictions. I on these apparent contradictions. I think most of those when you start think most of those when you start think most of those when you start really digging into them, you realize really digging into them, you realize really digging into them, you realize that the Gospel authors had different that the Gospel authors had different that the Gospel authors had different ways of telling the story, different ways of telling the story, different ways of telling the story, different ways of writing. Modern historiography ways of writing. Modern historiography ways of writing. Modern historiography is different than ancient historiography is different than ancient historiography is different than ancient historiography and if we keep those things in mind, I and if we keep those things in mind, I and if we keep those things in mind, I think we quickly realize a lot of those think we quickly realize a lot of those think we quickly realize a lot of those contradictions contradictions contradictions uh, can be resolved.

uh, can be resolved. uh, can be resolved. Hm. That's good. Ok, so that was his Hm. That's good. Ok, so that was his Hm. That's good. Ok, so that was his first charge. Um, and his second first charge. Um, and his second first charge. Um, and his second argument is that they were written so argument is that they were written so argument is that they were written so long after events took place. So, if long after events took place. So, if long after events took place. So, if Jesus died around 30-ish AD and our Jesus died around 30-ish AD and our Jesus died around 30-ish AD and our contention is the Gospels were written contention is the Gospels were written contention is the Gospels were written around 60 AD, Ehrman would say in the around 60 AD, Ehrman would say in the around 60 AD, Ehrman would say in the 80s or 90s, but if we say 60s, 80s, 90s, 80s or 90s, but if we say 60s, 80s, 90s, 80s or 90s, but if we say 60s, 80s, 90s, a while a while afterward, a while a while afterward, a while a while afterward, um, who could remember exactly what um, who could remember exactly what um, who could remember exactly what Jesus said after all that period of Jesus said after all that period of Jesus said after all that period of time, right? Um, if this was 30 years time, right? Um, if this was 30 years time, right? Um, if this was 30 years later, who could remember what he said later, who could remember what he said later, who could remember what he said on the Sermon on the Mount? Who knows on the Sermon on the Mount? Who knows on the Sermon on the Mount? Who knows what when he was talking to the woman at what when he was talking to the woman at what when he was talking to the woman at the well? Who could remember all of the well? Who could remember all of the well? Who could remember all of this? this? this? Yeah, this opens up a whole vast field Yeah, this opens up a whole vast field Yeah, this opens up a whole vast field of study about the way oral transmission of study about the way oral transmission of study about the way oral transmission happened in the early Christian faith, happened in the early Christian faith, happened in the early Christian faith, one of course that we can't fully unpack one of course that we can't fully unpack one of course that we can't fully unpack here. What's interesting though is that here. What's interesting though is that here. What's interesting though is that there is an older version of this and a there is an older version of this and a there is an older version of this and a newer version of this field. In the newer version of this field. In the newer version of this field. In the older version of this field, which fell older version of this field, which fell older version of this field, which fell under this heading really called form under this heading really called form under this heading really called form criticism, there was a widespread idea criticism, there was a widespread idea criticism, there was a widespread idea that circulation of tradition in early that circulation of tradition in early that circulation of tradition in early Christianity was all done in anonymous Christianity was all done in anonymous Christianity was all done in anonymous communities communities communities and it was changed widely and radically and it was changed widely and radically and it was changed widely and radically and that what you started with is not and that what you started with is not and that what you started with is not what you end with, kind of like the what you end with, kind of like the what you end with, kind of like the kids' telephone game you played with in kids' telephone game you played with in kids' telephone game you played with in elementary school where you'd whisper in elementary school where you'd whisper in elementary school where you'd whisper in one kid's ear and they'd whisper around one kid's ear and they'd whisper around one kid's ear and they'd whisper around the circle and it come back out as the circle and it come back out as the circle and it come back out as something something something entirely different. But now, the whole entirely different. But now, the whole entirely different. But now, the whole form critical model has been almost form critical model has been almost form critical model has been almost completely rejected by modern scholars.

completely rejected by modern scholars. completely rejected by modern scholars. And there's been a complete flipping of And there's been a complete flipping of And there's been a complete flipping of the narrative. the narrative. the narrative. This doesn't deny that there was a This doesn't deny that there was a This doesn't deny that there was a period of oral transmission, but the period of oral transmission, but the period of oral transmission, but the idea that it always done in this idea that it always done in this idea that it always done in this anonymous sort of community, change anonymous sort of community, change anonymous sort of community, change whatever you want kind of way has been whatever you want kind of way has been whatever you want kind of way has been challenged and challenged significantly. challenged and challenged significantly. challenged and challenged significantly. And one of the things that scholars have And one of the things that scholars have And one of the things that scholars have recognized through more and more study recognized through more and more study recognized through more and more study is that the tradition wasn't transmitted is that the tradition wasn't transmitted is that the tradition wasn't transmitted anonymously. anonymously. anonymously. It's transmit transmitted through formal It's transmit transmitted through formal It's transmit transmitted through formal tradents or formal eyewitnesses or those tradents or formal eyewitnesses or those tradents or formal eyewitnesses or those who were authorized to transmit the who were authorized to transmit the who were authorized to transmit the tradition uh, reliably. We actually have tradition uh, reliably. We actually have tradition uh, reliably. We actually have evidence this of this in the New evidence this of this in the New evidence this of this in the New Testament itself. If if people who read Testament itself. If if people who read Testament itself. If if people who read the New Testament pay attention, they'll the New Testament pay attention, they'll the New Testament pay attention, they'll realize that built within the New realize that built within the New realize that built within the New Testament is is evidence of a system of Testament is is evidence of a system of Testament is is evidence of a system of passing down tradition in reliable, passing down tradition in reliable, passing down tradition in reliable, formal, controlled ways. formal, controlled ways. formal, controlled ways. Good example of this is the passage I Good example of this is the passage I Good example of this is the passage I just mentioned moments ago in 1 just mentioned moments ago in 1 just mentioned moments ago in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul says, "What I Corinthians 15. Paul says, "What I Corinthians 15. Paul says, "What I received, I passed down to you, that received, I passed down to you, that received, I passed down to you, that Christ died according uh, to the Christ died according uh, to the Christ died according uh, to the scriptures and was raised 3 days later scriptures and was raised 3 days later scriptures and was raised 3 days later according to the scriptures." That whole according to the scriptures." That whole according to the scriptures." That whole section is understood by many scholars section is understood by many scholars section is understood by many scholars to be what is effectively an early early to be what is effectively an early early to be what is effectively an early early creedal statement that predates Paul by creedal statement that predates Paul by creedal statement that predates Paul by generations.

generations. generations. And was formalized and carefully And was formalized and carefully And was formalized and carefully transmitted. That's the example of the transmitted. That's the example of the transmitted. That's the example of the kind of thing that was happening in the kind of thing that was happening in the kind of thing that was happening in the early church. In fact, a lot agree that early church. In fact, a lot agree that early church. In fact, a lot agree that that creedal statement goes back that creedal statement goes back that creedal statement goes back probably well into the 40s of the 1st probably well into the 40s of the 1st probably well into the 40s of the 1st century. So, now this supposedly big gap century. So, now this supposedly big gap century. So, now this supposedly big gap starts shrinking pretty fast. We have starts shrinking pretty fast. We have starts shrinking pretty fast. We have evidence of that creedal transmission in evidence of that creedal transmission in evidence of that creedal transmission in places like Philippians 2, 1 Corinthians places like Philippians 2, 1 Corinthians places like Philippians 2, 1 Corinthians 8, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Corinthians 11, 8, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Corinthians 11, 8, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Corinthians 11, and on and it goes. And then I'd add and on and it goes. And then I'd add and on and it goes. And then I'd add another layer to this that's not another layer to this that's not another layer to this that's not mentioned is the idea of using early mentioned is the idea of using early mentioned is the idea of using early Christian notebooks. This idea that Christian notebooks. This idea that Christian notebooks. This idea that people just sat around for 30 or 40 people just sat around for 30 or 40 people just sat around for 30 or 40 years with no inkling at all to write years with no inkling at all to write years with no inkling at all to write anything down, I think does not fit with anything down, I think does not fit with anything down, I think does not fit with what we know about the ancient Roman what we know about the ancient Roman what we know about the ancient Roman world. It was common when you would take world. It was common when you would take world. It was common when you would take notes from your leader, your rabbi, your notes from your leader, your rabbi, your notes from your leader, your rabbi, your master, you would write these things master, you would write these things master, you would write these things down. So, oral transmission was down. So, oral transmission was down. So, oral transmission was happening, yes, but alongside probably happening, yes, but alongside probably happening, yes, but alongside probably some early written text that would have some early written text that would have some early written text that would have also stabilized the tradition. So, yes, also stabilized the tradition. So, yes, also stabilized the tradition. So, yes, it sounds really scary to think this big it sounds really scary to think this big it sounds really scary to think this big gap of time telephone game, but when you gap of time telephone game, but when you gap of time telephone game, but when you look at all the data actually, we have look at all the data actually, we have look at all the data actually, we have good reasons to think the tradition was good reasons to think the tradition was good reasons to think the tradition was reliably transmitted over that block of reliably transmitted over that block of reliably transmitted over that block of time. time. time. It also maybe it's because we're so far It also maybe it's because we're so far It also maybe it's because we're so far away now, but 30 years to me doesn't away now, but 30 years to me doesn't away now, but 30 years to me doesn't feel like that long of time. People feel like that long of time. People feel like that long of time. People would still be alive that knew Jesus, would still be alive that knew Jesus, would still be alive that knew Jesus, and so it just it doesn't seem It's and so it just it doesn't seem It's and so it just it doesn't seem It's like, yeah, 30 years isn't like 300. One like, yeah, 30 years isn't like 300. One like, yeah, 30 years isn't like 300. One of the examples I've given in a in my of the examples I've given in a in my of the examples I've given in a in my book Surviving Religion 101 is a is a um book Surviving Religion 101 is a is a um book Surviving Religion 101 is a is a um historical account historical account of historical account historical account of historical account historical account of the Revolutionary War written by John the Revolutionary War written by John the Revolutionary War written by John Adams Adams Adams before he died. And he wrote it about 30 before he died. And he wrote it about 30 before he died. And he wrote it about 30 years years years uh after Oh, actually it was more than uh after Oh, actually it was more than uh after Oh, actually it was more than that. It may have been It may have been that. It may have been It may have been that. It may have been It may have been more than 30 years after the events more than 30 years after the events more than 30 years after the events themselves. Um but he was still a person

themselves. Um but he was still a person themselves. Um but he was still a person who was there. who was there. who was there. We have no reason to discount what was We have no reason to discount what was We have no reason to discount what was in that just because of the gap of time. in that just because of the gap of time. in that just because of the gap of time. You could say, "Well, you forgot. Your You could say, "Well, you forgot. Your You could say, "Well, you forgot. Your memory's blurred." Well, maybe. But but memory's blurred." Well, maybe. But but memory's blurred." Well, maybe. But but I'm telling you if I have a historical I'm telling you if I have a historical I'm telling you if I have a historical record available to me written by record available to me written by record available to me written by someone someone someone uh who is boots on the ground, even if uh who is boots on the ground, even if uh who is boots on the ground, even if it was written 30 or 40 years later, I'm it was written 30 or 40 years later, I'm it was written 30 or 40 years later, I'm going to take that historical record. going to take that historical record. going to take that historical record. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Okay, so here's Ehrman's third problem Okay, so here's Ehrman's third problem Okay, so here's Ehrman's third problem that he has. According to him, and that he has. According to him, and that he has. According to him, and you're addressing this a little bit you're addressing this a little bit you're addressing this a little bit already, but the Gospels are not already, but the Gospels are not already, but the Gospels are not eyewitness accounts. So, he says we eyewitness accounts. So, he says we eyewitness accounts. So, he says we don't know who the authors were because don't know who the authors were because don't know who the authors were because the Gospels circulated anonymously for the Gospels circulated anonymously for the Gospels circulated anonymously for years, right? Feeling like they're So, years, right? Feeling like they're So, years, right? Feeling like they're So, he he would say, "Hey, the the people he he would say, "Hey, the the people he he would say, "Hey, the the people who wrote the Gospels um as we have them who wrote the Gospels um as we have them who wrote the Gospels um as we have them now were disconnected from the events. now were disconnected from the events. now were disconnected from the events. They weren't there. They wrote them They weren't there. They wrote them They weren't there. They wrote them later, and they were outside of later, and they were outside of later, and they were outside of Palestine. They didn't know the culture. Palestine. They didn't know the culture. Palestine. They didn't know the culture. Um Um Um why would we trust those guys? why would we trust those guys? why would we trust those guys? Yeah, he he made a statement in the in Yeah, he he made a statement in the in Yeah, he he made a statement in the in the doubtful interview that I I found the doubtful interview that I I found the doubtful interview that I I found remarkable. He he he said that there's a remarkable. He he he said that there's a remarkable. He he he said that there's a long period of this the Gospels long period of this the Gospels long period of this the Gospels circulating anonymously. circulating anonymously. circulating anonymously. I I would simply ask, "What's the I I would simply ask, "What's the I I would simply ask, "What's the evidence for that?"

evidence for that?" evidence for that?" There there actually is no evidence for There there actually is no evidence for There there actually is no evidence for that. We don't have Let me just lay it that. We don't have Let me just lay it that. We don't have Let me just lay it out here. We don't have a single example out here. We don't have a single example out here. We don't have a single example of any of our four Gospels, Matthew, of any of our four Gospels, Matthew, of any of our four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, circulating in the Mark, Luke, and John, circulating in the Mark, Luke, and John, circulating in the early church without the name attached early church without the name attached early church without the name attached to them that's attached to them now. Not to them that's attached to them now. Not to them that's attached to them now. Not a single example anywhere. a single example anywhere. a single example anywhere. Now, of course, you have fragments of Now, of course, you have fragments of Now, of course, you have fragments of the Gospels that don't that don't have the Gospels that don't that don't have the Gospels that don't that don't have the cover page on them or the or the the cover page on them or the or the the cover page on them or the or the last page where the title's included. last page where the title's included. last page where the title's included. That's not what we're talking about cuz That's not what we're talking about cuz That's not what we're talking about cuz you're not expected to see the title you're not expected to see the title you're not expected to see the title there. But do we ever find the Gospel of there. But do we ever find the Gospel of there. But do we ever find the Gospel of Mark Mark Mark circulating without the title The Gospel circulating without the title The Gospel circulating without the title The Gospel According to Mark? No. Do you ever find According to Mark? No. Do you ever find According to Mark? No. Do you ever find the Gospel of Luke circulating without the Gospel of Luke circulating without the Gospel of Luke circulating without the title Gospel According to Luke? No. the title Gospel According to Luke? No. the title Gospel According to Luke? No. In fact, not only do we find every copy In fact, not only do we find every copy In fact, not only do we find every copy with the titles, but the titles are with the titles, but the titles are with the titles, but the titles are actually all the same. Historically, we actually all the same. Historically, we actually all the same. Historically, we never call Mark the Gospel of Philip. We never call Mark the Gospel of Philip. We never call Mark the Gospel of Philip. We never call the Gospel of John the Gospel never call the Gospel of John the Gospel never call the Gospel of John the Gospel of Thomas. We don't have any evidence of Thomas. We don't have any evidence of Thomas. We don't have any evidence that the church was confused about who that the church was confused about who that the church was confused about who these authors were or that there's these authors were or that there's these authors were or that there's different titles attached to them. So, different titles attached to them. So, different titles attached to them. So, this idea that the Gospels had this big this idea that the Gospels had this big this idea that the Gospels had this big period of circu- of circulating period of circu- of circulating period of circu- of circulating anonymously and then these names are anonymously and then these names are anonymously and then these names are attached later has absolutely zero attached later has absolutely zero attached later has absolutely zero evidence for it. More than that, it's evidence for it. More than that, it's evidence for it. More than that, it's even worse because if you have a long even worse because if you have a long even worse because if you have a long period of anonymous circulation, what's period of anonymous circulation, what's period of anonymous circulation, what's the chance of the church all agreeing the chance of the church all agreeing the chance of the church all agreeing what to call these these Gospels later?

what to call these these Gospels later? what to call these these Gospels later? So, So, So, what does that tell you? That tells you what does that tell you? That tells you what does that tell you? That tells you that the titles actually have a lot more that the titles actually have a lot more that the titles actually have a lot more historical significance um uh to who historical significance um uh to who historical significance um uh to who wrote these books than than we might wrote these books than than we might wrote these books than than we might actually realize. Another statement that actually realize. Another statement that actually realize. Another statement that he made is that there's no indication he made is that there's no indication he made is that there's no indication from the authors of these Gospels that from the authors of these Gospels that from the authors of these Gospels that they are eyewitness reports. they are eyewitness reports. they are eyewitness reports. I I find that baffling on multiple I I find that baffling on multiple I I find that baffling on multiple levels. For one, the Gospel of John levels. For one, the Gospel of John levels. For one, the Gospel of John expressly says it's an eyewitness expressly says it's an eyewitness expressly says it's an eyewitness report. It was written by someone who report. It was written by someone who report. It was written by someone who was the beloved disciple. He says he was the beloved disciple. He says he was the beloved disciple. He says he wrote these things, and he was actually wrote these things, and he was actually wrote these things, and he was actually at the Last Supper whom Jesus laid his at the Last Supper whom Jesus laid his at the Last Supper whom Jesus laid his head on his chest. So, whoever you head on his chest. So, whoever you head on his chest. So, whoever you identify the beloved disciple as, and we identify the beloved disciple as, and we identify the beloved disciple as, and we would argue John the son of Zebedee is a would argue John the son of Zebedee is a would argue John the son of Zebedee is a reasonable conclusion there, claims to reasonable conclusion there, claims to reasonable conclusion there, claims to be an eyewitness Gospel. be an eyewitness Gospel. be an eyewitness Gospel. And then I would add to that Luke. Now, And then I would add to that Luke. Now, And then I would add to that Luke. Now, Luke himself doesn't claim to be an Luke himself doesn't claim to be an Luke himself doesn't claim to be an eyewitness Gospel, but he says in the eyewitness Gospel, but he says in the eyewitness Gospel, but he says in the very early prologue that that basically very early prologue that that basically very early prologue that that basically he's a student of the people who were he's a student of the people who were he's a student of the people who were the eyewitnesses. the eyewitnesses. the eyewitnesses. Um the apostles. And so, you have what Um the apostles. And so, you have what Um the apostles. And so, you have what you would call one step from eyewitness you would call one step from eyewitness you would call one step from eyewitness testimony, uh which would be sort of a a testimony, uh which would be sort of a a testimony, uh which would be sort of a a what what what what some early what what what what some early what what what what some early historians would call secondary autopsy. historians would call secondary autopsy. historians would call secondary autopsy. But that's actually really good, too. If But that's actually really good, too. If But that's actually really good, too. If I was in a if I'm an historian and I I was in a if I'm an historian and I I was in a if I'm an historian and I want to get close to an historical want to get close to an historical want to get close to an historical event, what do I want? Either someone event, what do I want? Either someone event, what do I want? Either someone who was there or someone who got his who was there or someone who got his who was there or someone who got his information from someone who was there, information from someone who was there, information from someone who was there, and that's exactly who you have in the and that's exactly who you have in the and that's exactly who you have in the person of Luke. Um now, when you look at person of Luke. Um now, when you look at person of Luke. Um now, when you look at uh Mark, I you know, I know that Ehrman uh Mark, I you know, I know that Ehrman uh Mark, I you know, I know that Ehrman is not convinced about Peter's tradition is not convinced about Peter's tradition is not convinced about Peter's tradition behind Mark, but you may not realize it behind Mark, but you may not realize it behind Mark, but you may not realize it the tradition of of the fact that Mark's the tradition of of the fact that Mark's the tradition of of the fact that Mark's Gospel is effectively the memories of Gospel is effectively the memories of Gospel is effectively the memories of Peter has a deep wide historical Peter has a deep wide historical Peter has a deep wide historical resonance within the early Christian resonance within the early Christian resonance within the early Christian world. We have this all the way back in world. We have this all the way back in world. We have this all the way back in the 1st century. Papias quotes someone

the 1st century. Papias quotes someone the 1st century. Papias quotes someone from the 1st century who says that from the 1st century who says that from the 1st century who says that basically Peter is behind Mark's Gospel. basically Peter is behind Mark's Gospel. basically Peter is behind Mark's Gospel. And then we have the same thing repeated And then we have the same thing repeated And then we have the same thing repeated by Justin Martyr, and the same thing by Justin Martyr, and the same thing by Justin Martyr, and the same thing repeated by Irenaeus, and the same thing repeated by Irenaeus, and the same thing repeated by Irenaeus, and the same thing repeated by Tertullian and Clement of repeated by Tertullian and Clement of repeated by Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria. Alexandria. Alexandria. What does that What does that whole What does that What does that whole What does that What does that whole matrix tell you? matrix tell you? matrix tell you? That tells you when you look at the four That tells you when you look at the four That tells you when you look at the four Gospels, actually have very good reasons Gospels, actually have very good reasons Gospels, actually have very good reasons to think they're associated with people to think they're associated with people to think they're associated with people who were there in the 1st century. And who were there in the 1st century. And who were there in the 1st century. And so, the idea that there's no evidence so, the idea that there's no evidence so, the idea that there's no evidence for that, I would flip it and say for that, I would flip it and say for that, I would flip it and say actually there's tremendous evidence for actually there's tremendous evidence for actually there's tremendous evidence for that, and I think there's hardly any that, and I think there's hardly any that, and I think there's hardly any evidence that they circulated evidence that they circulated evidence that they circulated anonymously. Now, of course, you could anonymously. Now, of course, you could anonymously. Now, of course, you could have a name attached to them from the have a name attached to them from the have a name attached to them from the very beginning that's wrong. That's very beginning that's wrong. That's very beginning that's wrong. That's possible. But but when you do history, possible. But but when you do history, possible. But but when you do history, you don't really ask what's possible. you don't really ask what's possible. you don't really ask what's possible. You ask what's probable. And if you have You ask what's probable. And if you have You ask what's probable. And if you have those names from the very early time, those names from the very early time, those names from the very early time, it's really likely that they reflect it's really likely that they reflect it's really likely that they reflect real authorship. real authorship. real authorship. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes Yeah, that makes sense. That makes Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. sense. sense. Okay, so here is the story um Okay, so here is the story um Okay, so here is the story um if you if you would say to Bart Ehrman, if you if you would say to Bart Ehrman, if you if you would say to Bart Ehrman, "Okay, how did how do you think "Okay, how did how do you think "Okay, how did how do you think Christianity came into being if it isn't Christianity came into being if it isn't Christianity came into being if it isn't true?" true?" true?" He would tell you this story. Okay, the He would tell you this story. Okay, the He would tell you this story. Okay, the story goes like this. story goes like this. story goes like this. Jesus' followers thought that he was the Jesus' followers thought that he was the Jesus' followers thought that he was the Messiah. They they were convinced of it.

Messiah. They they were convinced of it. Messiah. They they were convinced of it. And then he was arrested and crucified, And then he was arrested and crucified, And then he was arrested and crucified, and they didn't know what to think. And and they didn't know what to think. And and they didn't know what to think. And then a couple of his followers, maybe then a couple of his followers, maybe then a couple of his followers, maybe Peter or Mary Magdalene or a couple Peter or Mary Magdalene or a couple Peter or Mary Magdalene or a couple really um strong followers, thought that really um strong followers, thought that really um strong followers, thought that they saw him alive. Maybe they they saw him alive. Maybe they they saw him alive. Maybe they hallucinated it, maybe they dreamed it, hallucinated it, maybe they dreamed it, hallucinated it, maybe they dreamed it, or whatever it would be. They thought or whatever it would be. They thought or whatever it would be. They thought they saw maybe they saw a person in a they saw maybe they saw a person in a they saw maybe they saw a person in a crowd and they thought it was him. Um crowd and they thought it was him. Um crowd and they thought it was him. Um anybody who's had someone die who really anybody who's had someone die who really anybody who's had someone die who really and really wishes they could see that and really wishes they could see that and really wishes they could see that person can relate to like, "I think that person can relate to like, "I think that person can relate to like, "I think that was them." was them." was them." And then maybe Peter and Mary Magdalene And then maybe Peter and Mary Magdalene And then maybe Peter and Mary Magdalene talked about this so much over and over talked about this so much over and over talked about this so much over and over again that they convinced themselves and again that they convinced themselves and again that they convinced themselves and convinced all the people around them convinced all the people around them convinced all the people around them that they really had seen Jesus alive. that they really had seen Jesus alive. that they really had seen Jesus alive. And from there the disciples began to And from there the disciples began to And from there the disciples began to reason, "Oh, well, if Jesus is alive, reason, "Oh, well, if Jesus is alive, reason, "Oh, well, if Jesus is alive, then we got this wrong. We thought he then we got this wrong. We thought he then we got this wrong. We thought he was coming to destroy the Romans. was coming to destroy the Romans. was coming to destroy the Romans. Maybe God wanted him to die and come Maybe God wanted him to die and come Maybe God wanted him to die and come back to life instead. Well, why that? back to life instead. Well, why that? back to life instead. Well, why that? Um Um Um maybe he had to die to save us uh maybe he had to die to save us uh maybe he had to die to save us uh because he loves us. Why would he have because he loves us. Why would he have because he loves us. Why would he have to die to save you? Oh, maybe it's to die to save you? Oh, maybe it's to die to save you? Oh, maybe it's because it's a sacrifice for our sins. because it's a sacrifice for our sins. because it's a sacrifice for our sins. And let's tell everybody that, and and And let's tell everybody that, and and And let's tell everybody that, and and maybe that is how Christianity was born maybe that is how Christianity was born maybe that is how Christianity was born instead. Do you think that is a could be instead. Do you think that is a could be instead. Do you think that is a could be a reasonable explanation for the a reasonable explanation for the a reasonable explanation for the beginning of Christianity?

beginning of Christianity? beginning of Christianity? Yeah, I think you know where I'm going Yeah, I think you know where I'm going Yeah, I think you know where I'm going to go with this one. Um to go with this one. Um to go with this one. Um Yeah, it's an interesting story. Um Yeah, it's an interesting story. Um Yeah, it's an interesting story. Um purely hypothetical. purely hypothetical. purely hypothetical. Um Um Um you know, it's a reconstruction you know, it's a reconstruction you know, it's a reconstruction of what could explain of what could explain of what could explain what I think is some of the best what I think is some of the best what I think is some of the best evidence for the resurrection. Lurking evidence for the resurrection. Lurking evidence for the resurrection. Lurking behind that explanation is a reality behind that explanation is a reality behind that explanation is a reality that Ehrman is trying to address. And that Ehrman is trying to address. And that Ehrman is trying to address. And for the listener who may not understand, for the listener who may not understand, for the listener who may not understand, here's that reality. here's that reality. here's that reality. There's the question of of whether Jesus There's the question of of whether Jesus There's the question of of whether Jesus really rose from the dead or not, which really rose from the dead or not, which really rose from the dead or not, which is a important historical question to is a important historical question to is a important historical question to address. address. address. But there's a different historical But there's a different historical But there's a different historical question to address that's linked to it question to address that's linked to it question to address that's linked to it that often people don't think about. And that often people don't think about. And that often people don't think about. And that is not how do I explain whether that is not how do I explain whether that is not how do I explain whether Jesus rose from the dead, but how do I Jesus rose from the dead, but how do I Jesus rose from the dead, but how do I explain how people came to believe he explain how people came to believe he explain how people came to believe he rose from the dead. rose from the dead. rose from the dead. It's absolutely an historical fact that It's absolutely an historical fact that It's absolutely an historical fact that early Christians believe that Jesus had early Christians believe that Jesus had early Christians believe that Jesus had risen from the dead, that he came back risen from the dead, that he came back risen from the dead, that he came back to life, that he rose physically and to life, that he rose physically and to life, that he rose physically and bodily, um and that transformed that bodily, um and that transformed that bodily, um and that transformed that early Christian uh mission from dying to early Christian uh mission from dying to early Christian uh mission from dying to back to life to eventually in a few back to life to eventually in a few back to life to eventually in a few generations taking over the entire Roman generations taking over the entire Roman generations taking over the entire Roman world. To understand this, you just have world. To understand this, you just have world. To understand this, you just have to understand what it meant to have a to understand what it meant to have a to understand what it meant to have a dead Messiah. Um we tend to think that dead Messiah. Um we tend to think that dead Messiah. Um we tend to think that when when when Jesus died, then the when when when Jesus died, then the when when when Jesus died, then the disciples were sort of saying, "Well, disciples were sort of saying, "Well, disciples were sort of saying, "Well, I've got a looking at their watch going, I've got a looking at their watch going, I've got a looking at their watch going, well, I got well, I got well, I got you know, 3 days to kill here, and it's you know, 3 days to kill here, and it's you know, 3 days to kill here, and it's all going to be fine, and he'll come all going to be fine, and he'll come all going to be fine, and he'll come back, and we'll be good." But that's not back, and we'll be good." But that's not back, and we'll be good." But that's not what happened. The disciples were in what happened. The disciples were in what happened. The disciples were in utter despair. They didn't think we can utter despair. They didn't think we can utter despair. They didn't think we can save this thing. They didn't think we save this thing. They didn't think we save this thing. They didn't think we could re- we could redeem this somehow.

could re- we could redeem this somehow. could re- we could redeem this somehow. For them, it was over. A dead Messiah For them, it was over. A dead Messiah For them, it was over. A dead Messiah was no Messiah. was no Messiah. was no Messiah. Ehrman's reconstruction almost makes it Ehrman's reconstruction almost makes it Ehrman's reconstruction almost makes it seem like seem like seem like that the disciples were sort of eager to that the disciples were sort of eager to that the disciples were sort of eager to see Jesus behind every tree and around see Jesus behind every tree and around see Jesus behind every tree and around every corner as if, you know, you're every corner as if, you know, you're every corner as if, you know, you're just sort of ready to see a loved one in just sort of ready to see a loved one in just sort of ready to see a loved one in a dream or a vision. And and and then if a dream or a vision. And and and then if a dream or a vision. And and and then if it happened, that would transform the it happened, that would transform the it happened, that would transform the whole movement. I would suggest that whole movement. I would suggest that whole movement. I would suggest that it's mistaken on both those grounds. it's mistaken on both those grounds. it's mistaken on both those grounds. One, the disciples and the early One, the disciples and the early One, the disciples and the early followers of Jesus were not in a followers of Jesus were not in a followers of Jesus were not in a disposition to see Jesus, so much so disposition to see Jesus, so much so disposition to see Jesus, so much so that even when they saw him, they didn't that even when they saw him, they didn't that even when they saw him, they didn't recognize him. And even when they saw recognize him. And even when they saw recognize him. And even when they saw him, they hardly believed, and it took him, they hardly believed, and it took him, they hardly believed, and it took time and time and time again to get them time and time and time again to get them time and time and time again to get them to believe. So, they were not in a to believe. So, they were not in a to believe. So, they were not in a position to start seeing visions. And position to start seeing visions. And position to start seeing visions. And then secondly, then secondly, then secondly, he's making it sound like the the the he's making it sound like the the the he's making it sound like the the the the sort of visionary experience is a the sort of visionary experience is a the sort of visionary experience is a parallel to what the Gospels are parallel to what the Gospels are parallel to what the Gospels are describing. Is it true that people in describing. Is it true that people in describing. Is it true that people in the modern day, you could explain by the modern day, you could explain by the modern day, you could explain by psychology, think they saw a loved one psychology, think they saw a loved one psychology, think they saw a loved one alive? Of course, that happens. alive? Of course, that happens. alive? Of course, that happens. Does it happen in groups? Does it happen in groups? Does it happen in groups? Does it Does do hallucinations happen in Does it Does do hallucinations happen in Does it Does do hallucinations happen in groups where they all together see one groups where they all together see one groups where they all together see one person? person? person? And even if you thought you saw someone And even if you thought you saw someone And even if you thought you saw someone in a group, is it sustained? Does it in a group, is it sustained? Does it in a group, is it sustained? Does it happen again and again, so much so that happen again and again, so much so that happen again and again, so much so that over a period of time, in weeks, maybe over a period of time, in weeks, maybe over a period of time, in weeks, maybe even a month, the person is still there?

even a month, the person is still there? even a month, the person is still there? These are very different scenarios. The These are very different scenarios. The These are very different scenarios. The idea that you can explain the early idea that you can explain the early idea that you can explain the early Christian belief in the resurrection by Christian belief in the resurrection by Christian belief in the resurrection by appealing to to group hallucinations, appealing to to group hallucinations, appealing to to group hallucinations, which effectively is what the appeal which effectively is what the appeal which effectively is what the appeal here is to here is to here is to is is a answer. is is a answer. is is a answer. And I would even argue it's a possible And I would even argue it's a possible And I would even argue it's a possible answer. answer. answer. Is it the most likely answer? I I'll let Is it the most likely answer? I I'll let Is it the most likely answer? I I'll let the listener decide whether they think the listener decide whether they think the listener decide whether they think that's more persuasive. The only I would that's more persuasive. The only I would that's more persuasive. The only I would suggest this. The only way someone suggest this. The only way someone suggest this. The only way someone thinks that's a more likely answer is if thinks that's a more likely answer is if thinks that's a more likely answer is if they rule out the supernatural from the they rule out the supernatural from the they rule out the supernatural from the outset. If you if you don't think outset. If you if you don't think outset. If you if you don't think supernatural things can happen, then of supernatural things can happen, then of supernatural things can happen, then of course you'd think it's more likely to course you'd think it's more likely to course you'd think it's more likely to have a group hallucination. But if God have a group hallucination. But if God have a group hallucination. But if God intervenes in the world and supernatural intervenes in the world and supernatural intervenes in the world and supernatural things are possible, why is it more things are possible, why is it more things are possible, why is it more likely that you'd have a group likely that you'd have a group likely that you'd have a group hallucination when you know how how hallucination when you know how how hallucination when you know how how those don't really happen? In fact, one those don't really happen? In fact, one those don't really happen? In fact, one of the reasons you wonder when you of the reasons you wonder when you of the reasons you wonder when you hallucinate whether you're actually hallucinate whether you're actually hallucinate whether you're actually hallucinating, don't you say to the hallucinating, don't you say to the hallucinating, don't you say to the person next to you, "Are you seeing what person next to you, "Are you seeing what person next to you, "Are you seeing what I'm seeing?" I mean, there's no such I'm seeing?" I mean, there's no such I'm seeing?" I mean, there's no such thing as a group hallucination. So, I I thing as a group hallucination. So, I I thing as a group hallucination. So, I I don't I don't find that more compelling. don't I don't find that more compelling. don't I don't find that more compelling. So, what he suggested in the little So, what he suggested in the little So, what he suggested in the little narrative you've repeated there is a narrative you've repeated there is a narrative you've repeated there is a option, yes. option, yes. option, yes. And I'm sure we could come up with 35 And I'm sure we could come up with 35 And I'm sure we could come up with 35 more options.

more options. more options. But is that a better option? I would say But is that a better option? I would say But is that a better option? I would say it's only a better option if you already it's only a better option if you already it's only a better option if you already rule out God's intervention from the rule out God's intervention from the rule out God's intervention from the outset.