Interpreting Revelation (with Jen Wilkin)

Well, one of the things that's so hard Well, one of the things that's so hard to convince people to do in the local to convince people to do in the local to convince people to do in the local church is to go to the Old Testament. church is to go to the Old Testament. church is to go to the Old Testament. They think it is hard to understand and They think it is hard to understand and They think it is hard to understand and it is if you haven't devoted uh some it is if you haven't devoted uh some it is if you haven't devoted uh some time to just reading. time to just reading. time to just reading. And so, I think the more comfortable I And so, I think the more comfortable I And so, I think the more comfortable I got as particularly with those first two got as particularly with those first two got as particularly with those first two books of the Bible, the more comfortable books of the Bible, the more comfortable books of the Bible, the more comfortable I got with the Bible as a whole. Welcome to the Biblical Theology Welcome to the Biblical Theology Briefing, a podcast from The Gospel Briefing, a podcast from The Gospel Briefing, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon. And I'm Ben Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon. And I'm Ben Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon. And I'm Ben Gladd. And we are very excited to be Gladd. And we are very excited to be Gladd. And we are very excited to be joined here today by somebody who needs joined here today by somebody who needs joined here today by somebody who needs very little introduction, Jen Wilkin. very little introduction, Jen Wilkin. very little introduction, Jen Wilkin. And we have invited Jen to join us And we have invited Jen to join us And we have invited Jen to join us because of her significant ministry of because of her significant ministry of because of her significant ministry of helping people read the Bible as a helping people read the Bible as a helping people read the Bible as a continuous story all along pointing to continuous story all along pointing to continuous story all along pointing to Christ and culminating in Christ. So, Christ and culminating in Christ. So, Christ and culminating in Christ. So, let me do your official biography here, let me do your official biography here, let me do your official biography here, so we're we're on record here, Jen. Uh so we're we're on record here, Jen. Uh so we're we're on record here, Jen. Uh Jen Wilkin is Jen Wilkin is Jen Wilkin is a Bible teacher and author from Dallas, a Bible teacher and author from Dallas, a Bible teacher and author from Dallas, Texas. Her passion is to see others Texas. Her passion is to see others Texas. Her passion is to see others become articulate and committed become articulate and committed become articulate and committed followers of Christ with a clear followers of Christ with a clear followers of Christ with a clear understanding of why they believe what understanding of why they believe what understanding of why they believe what they believe, grounded in the word of they believe, grounded in the word of they believe, grounded in the word of God. Jen is the author of many books and God. Jen is the author of many books and God. Jen is the author of many books and Bible studies, and you can find more Bible studies, and you can find more Bible studies, and you can find more about her at www.jenwilkin.net.

So, Jen, welcome to the program. So, Jen, welcome to the program. >> Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, >> Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, >> Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Jen, I typed your name it's a pleasure. Jen, I typed your name it's a pleasure. Jen, I typed your name in Amazon and there are lots of in Amazon and there are lots of in Amazon and there are lots of five-star reviews. five-star reviews. five-star reviews. So, good for you. So, good for you. So, good for you. Lot You've done lots of books. Lot You've done lots of books. Lot You've done lots of books. >> That's no small accomplishment. >> That's no small accomplishment. >> That's no small accomplishment. Mine typically are in the two and Mine typically are in the two and Mine typically are in the two and three-star range. Yeah. Why did you do three-star range. Yeah. Why did you do three-star range. Yeah. Why did you do Revelation? I mean, there You know there Revelation? I mean, there You know there Revelation? I mean, there You know there are easier books in the Bible. Yeah, I are easier books in the Bible. Yeah, I are easier books in the Bible. Yeah, I do. Yeah. You know, maybe a Proverbs. do. Yeah. You know, maybe a Proverbs. do. Yeah. You know, maybe a Proverbs. Yeah. Yeah. Why Revelation? Well, um Yeah. Yeah. Why Revelation? Well, um Yeah. Yeah. Why Revelation? Well, um yeah, I had nothing else to do. No. yeah, I had nothing else to do. No. yeah, I had nothing else to do. No. I dreaded it. I tried to I tried to I dreaded it. I tried to I tried to I dreaded it. I tried to I tried to avoid it. People have asked me for years avoid it. People have asked me for years avoid it. People have asked me for years to to do a study on Revelation, and I to to do a study on Revelation, and I to to do a study on Revelation, and I was just like, "No. Like, I don't I was just like, "No. Like, I don't I was just like, "No. Like, I don't I don't need that don't need that don't need that energy in my life." And I don't know if energy in my life." And I don't know if energy in my life." And I don't know if you guys grew up with some of the same you guys grew up with some of the same you guys grew up with some of the same narratives that I grew up with, but narratives that I grew up with, but narratives that I grew up with, but movies and books, you know, the popular movies and books, you know, the popular movies and books, you know, the popular imagination is so saturated with what imagination is so saturated with what imagination is so saturated with what Revelation is supposed to mean. Revelation is supposed to mean. Revelation is supposed to mean. >> Thief in the Night? Oh my gosh. Don't >> Thief in the Night? Oh my gosh. Don't >> Thief in the Night? Oh my gosh. Don't don't trigger me in the middle of a don't trigger me in the middle of a don't trigger me in the middle of a podcast. I was saved 34 times the first podcast. I was saved 34 times the first podcast. I was saved 34 times the first time I watched it.

time I watched it. time I watched it. >> My mom took us to watch it in some >> My mom took us to watch it in some >> My mom took us to watch it in some sketchy like private showing, and I sketchy like private showing, and I sketchy like private showing, and I seriously had nightmares about getting seriously had nightmares about getting seriously had nightmares about getting my head chopped off by a guillotine, my head chopped off by a guillotine, my head chopped off by a guillotine, someone forcing me to get a tattoo, and someone forcing me to get a tattoo, and someone forcing me to get a tattoo, and the the scene that has stuck with me, if the the scene that has stuck with me, if the the scene that has stuck with me, if you remember that movie, is where you remember that movie, is where you remember that movie, is where everybody gets raptured, and there's a everybody gets raptured, and there's a everybody gets raptured, and there's a blender on the counter, and it's just blender on the counter, and it's just blender on the counter, and it's just like swinging stuff everywhere. like swinging stuff everywhere. like swinging stuff everywhere. >> that same scene, there's also one where >> that same scene, there's also one where >> that same scene, there's also one where a guy is mowing his grass, and then you a guy is mowing his grass, and then you a guy is mowing his grass, and then you just see the lawn mower going like just see the lawn mower going like just see the lawn mower going like Man. Yeah, so I'm Man. Yeah, so I'm Man. Yeah, so I'm >> airplane I'm fine. I don't think my eye >> airplane I'm fine. I don't think my eye >> airplane I'm fine. I don't think my eye is twitching right now, but um and I I is twitching right now, but um and I I is twitching right now, but um and I I really did. I had panic attacks um as a really did. I had panic attacks um as a really did. I had panic attacks um as a as a late high school early college as a late high school early college as a late high school early college student around um the rapture. Like, I I student around um the rapture. Like, I I student around um the rapture. Like, I I would I would just I I would be would I would just I I would be would I would just I I would be physically sick because of that just physically sick because of that just physically sick because of that just being so terrified by it. So, I didn't being so terrified by it. So, I didn't being so terrified by it. So, I didn't have the courage to even have the courage to even have the courage to even read it. Uh and that's one of the things read it. Uh and that's one of the things read it. Uh and that's one of the things that made me finally commit to do the that made me finally commit to do the that made me finally commit to do the study was that we would all agree that study was that we would all agree that study was that we would all agree that all scripture's God breathed and all scripture's God breathed and all scripture's God breathed and profitable, but for many of us, we're profitable, but for many of us, we're profitable, but for many of us, we're only reading 65 books of the Bible.

only reading 65 books of the Bible. only reading 65 books of the Bible. Uh we that 66th one, we're like, "Nah, Uh we that 66th one, we're like, "Nah, Uh we that 66th one, we're like, "Nah, figure all that out later." And it figure all that out later." And it figure all that out later." And it shouldn't be that way. We need the end shouldn't be that way. We need the end shouldn't be that way. We need the end of the story to connect to the beginning of the story to connect to the beginning of the story to connect to the beginning of the story. So, I had written studies of the story. So, I had written studies of the story. So, I had written studies over Genesis and Exodus, and um one of over Genesis and Exodus, and um one of over Genesis and Exodus, and um one of my partners in publishing said to me, my partners in publishing said to me, my partners in publishing said to me, "You know, "You know, "You know, because of the work you've done there, because of the work you've done there, because of the work you've done there, your people who have done those studies your people who have done those studies your people who have done those studies are more ready than the average person are more ready than the average person are more ready than the average person to jump in and study Revelation. And I to jump in and study Revelation. And I to jump in and study Revelation. And I was like, all right, you got me. Yeah. was like, all right, you got me. Yeah. was like, all right, you got me. Yeah. You made it a Bible literacy issue and You made it a Bible literacy issue and You made it a Bible literacy issue and you sucked me in. Yeah. you sucked me in. Yeah. you sucked me in. Yeah. Well, let's start with what I hope is Well, let's start with what I hope is Well, let's start with what I hope is a clarifying question. There's a lot you a clarifying question. There's a lot you a clarifying question. There's a lot you can talk about with the book of can talk about with the book of can talk about with the book of Revelation. Obviously, a lot of Revelation. Obviously, a lot of Revelation. Obviously, a lot of different interpretive approaches and different interpretive approaches and different interpretive approaches and all these sorts of things, but let's all these sorts of things, but let's all these sorts of things, but let's start with um start with um start with um how would you summarize the basic how would you summarize the basic how would you summarize the basic message of Revelation? Christ is coming message of Revelation? Christ is coming message of Revelation? Christ is coming back and everything will be made new. back and everything will be made new. back and everything will be made new. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And so, you know, it's a message of And so, you know, it's a message of And so, you know, it's a message of hope. It's a message of incredible hope hope. It's a message of incredible hope hope. It's a message of incredible hope and encouragement. And it's also a call and encouragement. And it's also a call and encouragement. And it's also a call to steadfastness, which is good for the to steadfastness, which is good for the to steadfastness, which is good for the church in any age. I think it was church in any age. I think it was church in any age. I think it was certainly good for that first those certainly good for that first those certainly good for that first those first century churches who heard it read first century churches who heard it read first century churches who heard it read aloud, but we need that every bit as aloud, but we need that every bit as aloud, but we need that every bit as much as they did. So, yeah. That that much as they did. So, yeah. That that much as they did. So, yeah. That that would be my my elevator pitch on would be my my elevator pitch on would be my my elevator pitch on Revelation. There you go. Yeah.

Revelation. There you go. Yeah. Revelation. There you go. Yeah. Jen, um Jen, um Jen, um I noticed that you finish your sessions I noticed that you finish your sessions I noticed that you finish your sessions by singing the Doxology. by singing the Doxology. by singing the Doxology. >> Yes. Now now how does that resonate well >> Yes. Now now how does that resonate well >> Yes. Now now how does that resonate well with Revelation? Cuz now I'm going to with Revelation? Cuz now I'm going to with Revelation? Cuz now I'm going to tell you this though, I tell you this though, I tell you this though, I if you had a bunch of guys gathered if you had a bunch of guys gathered if you had a bunch of guys gathered together, we would not be doing that. we would not be doing that. So, this is a unique thing. How does that resonate with Revelation How does that resonate with Revelation itself? itself? itself? >> Yeah, well, I beg to differ. At my >> Yeah, well, I beg to differ. At my >> Yeah, well, I beg to differ. At my church, we sing the Doxology at the end church, we sing the Doxology at the end church, we sing the Doxology at the end of just about everything that we do. So, of just about everything that we do. So, of just about everything that we do. So, one of the things that I wanted to do, I one of the things that I wanted to do, I one of the things that I wanted to do, I was I was filming the study in a church was I was filming the study in a church was I was filming the study in a church that was not my home church, and I that was not my home church, and I that was not my home church, and I wanted to feel more comfortable in that wanted to feel more comfortable in that wanted to feel more comfortable in that setting, and I knew there would be other setting, and I knew there would be other setting, and I knew there would be other women who were familiar with the women who were familiar with the women who were familiar with the Doxology. And so, I think the initial Doxology. And so, I think the initial Doxology. And so, I think the initial idea was, let's do something that's a idea was, let's do something that's a idea was, let's do something that's a little bit of a liturgy just to make little bit of a liturgy just to make little bit of a liturgy just to make this feel this feel this feel less like it's just created in a void less like it's just created in a void less like it's just created in a void out there. out there. out there. And then, And then, And then, the message of the Doxology is it I I the message of the Doxology is it I I the message of the Doxology is it I I think it's um, I'm going to cry. It's think it's um, I'm going to cry. It's think it's um, I'm going to cry. It's It's the song of the redeemed in It's the song of the redeemed in It's the song of the redeemed in Revelation 21 and 22 when we see rivers Revelation 21 and 22 when we see rivers Revelation 21 and 22 when we see rivers of living water flowing from the throne.

of living water flowing from the throne. of living water flowing from the throne. Um, and so it felt like a really Um, and so it felt like a really Um, and so it felt like a really appropriate thing to repeat over and appropriate thing to repeat over and appropriate thing to repeat over and over again during the over again during the over again during the colorful travels that we were going to colorful travels that we were going to colorful travels that we were going to have through the book of Revelation. have through the book of Revelation. have through the book of Revelation. Well, and it it is consistent with the Well, and it it is consistent with the Well, and it it is consistent with the number of snapshots you get of heavenly number of snapshots you get of heavenly number of snapshots you get of heavenly worship in the book of Revelation. Those worship in the book of Revelation. Those worship in the book of Revelation. Those are, I think, often some of the most are, I think, often some of the most are, I think, often some of the most neglected features of Revelation. People neglected features of Revelation. People neglected features of Revelation. People come to it with a certain expectation come to it with a certain expectation come to it with a certain expectation of, "Okay, I'm going to figure out a of, "Okay, I'm going to figure out a of, "Okay, I'm going to figure out a timeline here or a map of how it's all timeline here or a map of how it's all timeline here or a map of how it's all going to shake out at the end." And they going to shake out at the end." And they going to shake out at the end." And they miss some of the other key themes that miss some of the other key themes that miss some of the other key themes that are there that you've mentioned, as well are there that you've mentioned, as well are there that you've mentioned, as well as even just the note of even in the as even just the note of even in the as even just the note of even in the midst of all the chaos going on in this midst of all the chaos going on in this midst of all the chaos going on in this fallen world, fallen world, fallen world, there is worship around the throne 24/7. there is worship around the throne 24/7. there is worship around the throne 24/7. And that we get to join into that when And that we get to join into that when And that we get to join into that when we participate in corporate worship or we participate in corporate worship or we participate in corporate worship or even in private worship, we are entering even in private worship, we are entering even in private worship, we are entering into that that that ongoing worship into that that that ongoing worship into that that that ongoing worship experience. experience. experience. >> Absolutely. Well, and one of the things >> Absolutely. Well, and one of the things >> Absolutely. Well, and one of the things that I loved about the doxology that was that I loved about the doxology that was that I loved about the doxology that was such a nice fit is there's the there's such a nice fit is there's the there's such a nice fit is there's the there's the theme that you see it starts in the theme that you see it starts in the theme that you see it starts in Genesis, but it it's all the way through Genesis, but it it's all the way through Genesis, but it it's all the way through the Bible of the of the three creation the Bible of the of the three creation the Bible of the of the three creation domains. You've got the heavens and the domains. You've got the heavens and the domains. You've got the heavens and the earth and you've got the waters. And earth and you've got the waters. And earth and you've got the waters. And when you get to Revelation 21 and 22, when you get to Revelation 21 and 22, when you get to Revelation 21 and 22, all of the people who prefer beach all of the people who prefer beach all of the people who prefer beach vacations to mountain vacations freak vacations to mountain vacations freak vacations to mountain vacations freak out because it says the sea was no more.

out because it says the sea was no more. out because it says the sea was no more. And obviously the sea being a metaphor And obviously the sea being a metaphor And obviously the sea being a metaphor for chaos, in other words, chaos is for chaos, in other words, chaos is for chaos, in other words, chaos is gone. gone. gone. And so when you get to that final scene And so when you get to that final scene And so when you get to that final scene with the the tree of life and the the with the the tree of life and the the with the the tree of life and the the the river flowing, um, the river flowing, um, the river flowing, um, in the doxology, we have mention of the in the doxology, we have mention of the in the doxology, we have mention of the two creation domains that are still two creation domains that are still two creation domains that are still there. You've got um, mention of heaven there. You've got um, mention of heaven there. You've got um, mention of heaven and you've got mention of earth. And so, and you've got mention of earth. And so, and you've got mention of earth. And so, uh, it but the sea is not mentioned. And uh, it but the sea is not mentioned. And uh, it but the sea is not mentioned. And so it's it's a very nice conclusion to so it's it's a very nice conclusion to so it's it's a very nice conclusion to the scene that we see there. the scene that we see there. the scene that we see there. Well, your your comment there uh Well, your your comment there uh Well, your your comment there uh hinted at or we might even say alluded hinted at or we might even say alluded hinted at or we might even say alluded to a key feature of the Book of to a key feature of the Book of to a key feature of the Book of Revelation and that is in fact the Revelation and that is in fact the Revelation and that is in fact the number of Old Testament allusions and number of Old Testament allusions and number of Old Testament allusions and echoes that are just all throughout the echoes that are just all throughout the echoes that are just all throughout the Book of Revelation. And that's near and Book of Revelation. And that's near and Book of Revelation. And that's near and dear to Ben and I's heart since that's dear to Ben and I's heart since that's dear to Ben and I's heart since that's what uh we spent a lot of time studying what uh we spent a lot of time studying what uh we spent a lot of time studying in our own work. But what were some of in our own work. But what were some of in our own work. But what were some of the most significant Old Testament the most significant Old Testament the most significant Old Testament allusions and echoes that helped you allusions and echoes that helped you allusions and echoes that helped you better understand the message of better understand the message of better understand the message of Revelation or maybe just pick one or two Revelation or maybe just pick one or two Revelation or maybe just pick one or two that stood out to you. Gosh, one or two that stood out to you. Gosh, one or two that stood out to you. Gosh, one or two out of a million.

out of a million. out of a million. >> you you can pick more than that if you'd >> you you can pick more than that if you'd >> you you can pick more than that if you'd like, but like, but like, but >> Well, I'll just focus on the one that >> Well, I'll just focus on the one that >> Well, I'll just focus on the one that helped me build a structure for I helped me build a structure for I helped me build a structure for I wouldn't say I built the structure. I wouldn't say I built the structure. I wouldn't say I built the structure. I think the structure is in the Book of think the structure is in the Book of think the structure is in the Book of Revelation. But the the the creation Revelation. But the the the creation Revelation. But the the the creation account in Genesis chapter 1 so heavily account in Genesis chapter 1 so heavily account in Genesis chapter 1 so heavily informs the structure and the content of informs the structure and the content of informs the structure and the content of Revelation. And so I wrote the study Revelation. And so I wrote the study Revelation. And so I wrote the study around a structure of seven sevens. And around a structure of seven sevens. And around a structure of seven sevens. And I did that and not everyone agrees that I did that and not everyone agrees that I did that and not everyone agrees that that's the structure of the book. Um but that's the structure of the book. Um but that's the structure of the book. Um but I feel like whether you decide that I feel like whether you decide that I feel like whether you decide that that's right or wrong as you're going that's right or wrong as you're going that's right or wrong as you're going through the study, you will certainly through the study, you will certainly through the study, you will certainly have a memory hook to remember the the have a memory hook to remember the the have a memory hook to remember the the book if you if you follow that pattern. book if you if you follow that pattern. book if you if you follow that pattern. And so I even teach the women hand And so I even teach the women hand And so I even teach the women hand signals as part of what we're doing so signals as part of what we're doing so signals as part of what we're doing so they can remember hand signs. I've done they can remember hand signs. I've done they can remember hand signs. I've done it with the 10 Commandments. I've done it with the 10 Commandments. I've done it with the 10 Commandments. I've done it elsewhere. Nobody's too old for that, it elsewhere. Nobody's too old for that, it elsewhere. Nobody's too old for that, you know, so in fact I'm forgetting more you know, so in fact I'm forgetting more you know, so in fact I'm forgetting more things the older I get. I'm probably things the older I get. I'm probably things the older I get. I'm probably going to be doing hand signs to remember going to be doing hand signs to remember going to be doing hand signs to remember my children's names in a my children's names in a my children's names in a a few more years. So um but the just a few more years. So um but the just a few more years. So um but the just that number seven and how significant it that number seven and how significant it that number seven and how significant it is, but also the usage of other numbers is, but also the usage of other numbers is, but also the usage of other numbers as they relate to the creation account. as they relate to the creation account. as they relate to the creation account. So, you know, you see these cycles of So, you know, you see these cycles of So, you know, you see these cycles of seven judgments and the the the first seven judgments and the the the first seven judgments and the the the first four typically have to do with the four typically have to do with the four typically have to do with the things that were formed in the first things that were formed in the first things that were formed in the first four days of creation. Uh that sixth one four days of creation. Uh that sixth one four days of creation. Uh that sixth one is always going to deal with judgment on is always going to deal with judgment on is always going to deal with judgment on the earth dwellers, the humankind the earth dwellers, the humankind the earth dwellers, the humankind because man is created on the sixth day.

because man is created on the sixth day. because man is created on the sixth day. And then you get this seventh moment uh And then you get this seventh moment uh And then you get this seventh moment uh in all of them where we get the heavenly in all of them where we get the heavenly in all of them where we get the heavenly vision presented to us again as of this vision presented to us again as of this vision presented to us again as of this this foretaste or this hint of that this foretaste or this hint of that this foretaste or this hint of that eternal Sabbath that we will get on the eternal Sabbath that we will get on the eternal Sabbath that we will get on the on the everlasting seventh day. So, um on the everlasting seventh day. So, um on the everlasting seventh day. So, um being able to trace that all the way being able to trace that all the way being able to trace that all the way through through through first of all, I think it's very first of all, I think it's very first of all, I think it's very satisfying as a Bible student cuz you're satisfying as a Bible student cuz you're satisfying as a Bible student cuz you're like, oh, like, oh, like, oh, the more of the Old Testament I know, the more of the Old Testament I know, the more of the Old Testament I know, the more I'll be able to understand the more I'll be able to understand the more I'll be able to understand this, but just knowing that creation this, but just knowing that creation this, but just knowing that creation account better than I did before helps account better than I did before helps account better than I did before helps with so much of this to begin with. And with so much of this to begin with. And with so much of this to begin with. And the the way that John writes his the the way that John writes his the the way that John writes his material, material, material, he's so dependent on the Old Testament. he's so dependent on the Old Testament. he's so dependent on the Old Testament. So, a lot of his metaphors and symbols, So, a lot of his metaphors and symbols, So, a lot of his metaphors and symbols, they're existing Old Testament symbols. they're existing Old Testament symbols. they're existing Old Testament symbols. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And um And um And um it's easy for us to say, oh, well, not it's easy for us to say, oh, well, not it's easy for us to say, oh, well, not me, but some people say, oh, that's an me, but some people say, oh, that's an me, but some people say, oh, that's an Apache helicopter. That's a nuclear Apache helicopter. That's a nuclear Apache helicopter. That's a nuclear weapon or whatever. But, well, that's weapon or whatever. But, well, that's weapon or whatever. But, well, that's that's from Jeremiah. That's from that's from Jeremiah. That's from that's from Jeremiah. That's from Exodus. That's from It's already It's Exodus. That's from It's already It's Exodus. That's from It's already It's already functioning as a symbol in the already functioning as a symbol in the already functioning as a symbol in the Old Testament.

Old Testament. Old Testament. >> Right. And John just takes over that, >> Right. And John just takes over that, >> Right. And John just takes over that, but what's so unique to John is that the but what's so unique to John is that the but what's so unique to John is that the way he fuses two symbols or three way he fuses two symbols or three way he fuses two symbols or three symbols. He combines them in odd ways. symbols. He combines them in odd ways. symbols. He combines them in odd ways. For example, For example, For example, uh he'll say that Jesus is uh he'll say that Jesus is uh he'll say that Jesus is simultaneously the a slain lamb, simultaneously the a slain lamb, simultaneously the a slain lamb, Passover lamb, and then in the same Passover lamb, and then in the same Passover lamb, and then in the same breath he says, but he's also a breath he says, but he's also a breath he says, but he's also a conquering lion. conquering lion. conquering lion. >> Lion, yeah. And do you see he's taking >> Lion, yeah. And do you see he's taking >> Lion, yeah. And do you see he's taking two symbols and he's confused them. He's two symbols and he's confused them. He's two symbols and he's confused them. He's lined them up in such a unique way. And lined them up in such a unique way. And lined them up in such a unique way. And then we see Jesus doing doing this all then we see Jesus doing doing this all then we see Jesus doing doing this all the time where he'll take two Old the time where he'll take two Old the time where he'll take two Old Testament texts, two different Testament texts, two different Testament texts, two different traditions, and he'll combine them in traditions, and he'll combine them in traditions, and he'll combine them in this odd way. For example, like in Mark this odd way. For example, like in Mark this odd way. For example, like in Mark 10, he says that the Son of Man, that's 10, he says that the Son of Man, that's 10, he says that the Son of Man, that's Daniel 7, has not come to be served, but Daniel 7, has not come to be served, but Daniel 7, has not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a to serve and to give his life as a to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. That's Isaiah 53. So, ransom for many. That's Isaiah 53. So, ransom for many. That's Isaiah 53. So, he's taken Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 and he's taken Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 and he's taken Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 and he's fused them in this odd he's fused them in this odd he's fused them in this odd No No body in their right mind would No No body in their right mind would No No body in their right mind would ever ever ever >> with the Old Testament, man. Well, he's >> with the Old Testament, man. Well, he's >> with the Old Testament, man. Well, he's getting he's he I think he's getting getting he's he I think he's getting getting he's he I think he's getting he's taking themes, he's taking texts. I he's taking themes, he's taking texts. I he's taking themes, he's taking texts. I think he's allowing them to interpret think he's allowing them to interpret think he's allowing them to interpret one another and I it's so striking in one another and I it's so striking in one another and I it's so striking in Revelation. It's the way that it the way Revelation. It's the way that it the way Revelation. It's the way that it the way that it fuses these things. So, let's that it fuses these things. So, let's that it fuses these things. So, let's talk about Daniel because talk about Daniel because talk about Daniel because I was listening to your first lesson and I was listening to your first lesson and I was listening to your first lesson and you talked about how you talked about how you talked about how uh in Revelation the first three verses uh in Revelation the first three verses uh in Revelation the first three verses how it says that uh these things that how it says that uh these things that how it says that uh these things that the vision was communicated or was

the vision was communicated or was the vision was communicated or was symbolized symbolized and most symbolized symbolized and most symbolized symbolized and most translations say was made known. translations say was made known. translations say was made known. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> no good. I tell my students that's no >> no good. I tell my students that's no >> no good. I tell my students that's no good. Cuz the the word there is say my good. Cuz the the word there is say my good. Cuz the the word there is say my no and that word there means to no and that word there means to no and that word there means to symbolize. You communicate by symbols symbolize. You communicate by symbols symbolize. You communicate by symbols and it and that actually alludes back to and it and that actually alludes back to and it and that actually alludes back to Daniel 2 how the Colossus is symbolized Daniel 2 how the Colossus is symbolized Daniel 2 how the Colossus is symbolized to Nebuchadnezzar. So, to Nebuchadnezzar. So, to Nebuchadnezzar. So, that's a you make a big deal about that that's a you make a big deal about that that's a you make a big deal about that how Revelation itself presents itself as how Revelation itself presents itself as how Revelation itself presents itself as a symbolic vision. Do you want to a symbolic vision. Do you want to a symbolic vision. Do you want to unpack? I mean, that's Well, of course, unpack? I mean, that's Well, of course, unpack? I mean, that's Well, of course, we have great deal to thanks for that we have great deal to thanks for that we have great deal to thanks for that insight. insight. insight. Wouldn't want you to think I was sitting Wouldn't want you to think I was sitting Wouldn't want you to think I was sitting alone in my living room and had that alone in my living room and had that alone in my living room and had that epiphany. epiphany. epiphany. But, I I think that for, you know, But, I I think that for, you know, But, I I think that for, you know, dealing with the Bible literacy crisis dealing with the Bible literacy crisis dealing with the Bible literacy crisis that inhabits the local church, I'm that inhabits the local church, I'm that inhabits the local church, I'm keenly aware of the kinds of tools keenly aware of the kinds of tools keenly aware of the kinds of tools people have been given that don't work people have been given that don't work people have been given that don't work and the kinds of tools that they need to and the kinds of tools that they need to and the kinds of tools that they need to be given that do work. There's no more be given that do work. There's no more be given that do work. There's no more basic hermeneutic principle than letting basic hermeneutic principle than letting basic hermeneutic principle than letting scripture interpret scripture. You were scripture interpret scripture. You were scripture interpret scripture. You were just touching on that. Uh but but so just touching on that. Uh but but so just touching on that. Uh but but so what I ask them to do in the study is what I ask them to do in the study is what I ask them to do in the study is have less of a left behind approach and have less of a left behind approach and have less of a left behind approach and more of a look behind approach. And the more of a look behind approach. And the more of a look behind approach. And the second that we understand that second that we understand that second that we understand that Revelation is going to give us a Revelation is going to give us a Revelation is going to give us a symbolic representation of something, symbolic representation of something, symbolic representation of something, then we begin to say, "Oh, well, then we begin to say, "Oh, well, then we begin to say, "Oh, well, we should wonder where this came from."

we should wonder where this came from." we should wonder where this came from." As you were saying. And so, the symbolic As you were saying. And so, the symbolic As you were saying. And so, the symbolic reading, I hope, I believe, gives people reading, I hope, I believe, gives people reading, I hope, I believe, gives people um um um a skill. It's not just the way to read a skill. It's not just the way to read a skill. It's not just the way to read Revelation, it's a skill that they need Revelation, it's a skill that they need Revelation, it's a skill that they need in general when it comes to Bible in general when it comes to Bible in general when it comes to Bible reading, but it's a skill that many of reading, but it's a skill that many of reading, but it's a skill that many of them have not spent much time exploring. them have not spent much time exploring. them have not spent much time exploring. And so, I would go so far as to say And so, I would go so far as to say And so, I would go so far as to say there's nothing new in the book of there's nothing new in the book of there's nothing new in the book of Revelation. Revelation. Revelation. And um it's on us to ask, "Where did And um it's on us to ask, "Where did And um it's on us to ask, "Where did this come from before?" And the the this come from before?" And the the this come from before?" And the the minute that they see a first example of minute that they see a first example of minute that they see a first example of this, they come alive. Uh because that's this, they come alive. Uh because that's this, they come alive. Uh because that's how I was, right? Um and I think in how I was, right? Um and I think in how I was, right? Um and I think in particular particular particular about the throne room scene, most people about the throne room scene, most people about the throne room scene, most people are familiar with chapters 4 and 5. They are familiar with chapters 4 and 5. They are familiar with chapters 4 and 5. They know about the throne room scene know about the throne room scene know about the throne room scene uh and the the lamb slain and all of uh and the the lamb slain and all of uh and the the lamb slain and all of that. that. that. But there's the weird part where you see But there's the weird part where you see But there's the weird part where you see the the the figure on the throne and the the the figure on the throne and the the the figure on the throne and there's a rainbow behind him and then there's a rainbow behind him and then there's a rainbow behind him and then you get the weird creatures. And people you get the weird creatures. And people you get the weird creatures. And people are like, are like, are like, "I don't know what that is." And there's "I don't know what that is." And there's "I don't know what that is." And there's a really funny thing on the internet, a really funny thing on the internet, a really funny thing on the internet, you know, where it's like, "This is the you know, where it's like, "This is the you know, where it's like, "This is the actual biblical angel you would put on actual biblical angel you would put on actual biblical angel you would put on the top of your Christmas tree." And the top of your Christmas tree." And the top of your Christmas tree." And it's got the eyes and the Yeah. Um Like it's got the eyes and the Yeah. Um Like it's got the eyes and the Yeah. Um Like that's an Ewok.

that's an Ewok. that's an Ewok. >> A little precious moments. >> A little precious moments. >> A little precious moments. >> Right. Right. And it's like, "Well, I >> Right. Right. And it's like, "Well, I >> Right. Right. And it's like, "Well, I don't I don't know what to do with that, don't I don't know what to do with that, don't I don't know what to do with that, so I'm just going to I'm going to keep so I'm just going to I'm going to keep so I'm just going to I'm going to keep moving." And and and if you know the Old moving." And and and if you know the Old moving." And and and if you know the Old Testament, if you're thinking Testament, if you're thinking Testament, if you're thinking symbolically, and you think, "Wait a symbolically, and you think, "Wait a symbolically, and you think, "Wait a minute, where have I heard about a minute, where have I heard about a minute, where have I heard about a rainbow before?" Well, that's going to rainbow before?" Well, that's going to rainbow before?" Well, that's going to kick you immediately back to Genesis kick you immediately back to Genesis kick you immediately back to Genesis chapter 9. And um where God covenants chapter 9. And um where God covenants chapter 9. And um where God covenants with Noah. And it's interesting because with Noah. And it's interesting because with Noah. And it's interesting because the four living creatures that you see the four living creatures that you see the four living creatures that you see there in in chapter 4, there in in chapter 4, there in in chapter 4, um there's that repetition of the word um there's that repetition of the word um there's that repetition of the word living creatures over and over again. living creatures over and over again. living creatures over and over again. There's four of them, which tells us There's four of them, which tells us There's four of them, which tells us it's a reference to the created order in it's a reference to the created order in it's a reference to the created order in some way. some way. some way. And then when you go back to Genesis And then when you go back to Genesis And then when you go back to Genesis chapter 9, you find that in the covenant chapter 9, you find that in the covenant chapter 9, you find that in the covenant with with Noah, with with Noah, with with Noah, uh God repeats living creatures over and uh God repeats living creatures over and uh God repeats living creatures over and over again, and you begin to realize over again, and you begin to realize over again, and you begin to realize that the covenant that he makes with that the covenant that he makes with that the covenant that he makes with Noah is reflected in the faces of the Noah is reflected in the faces of the Noah is reflected in the faces of the four living creatures. You have, um, you four living creatures. You have, um, you four living creatures. You have, um, you have an undomesticated animal, you have have an undomesticated animal, you have have an undomesticated animal, you have a domesticated animal, you have a bird, a domesticated animal, you have a bird, a domesticated animal, you have a bird, and you have a man. Those are That's who and you have a man. Those are That's who and you have a man. Those are That's who was preserved on the ark, those those was preserved on the ark, those those was preserved on the ark, those those categories. And then you realize, I've categories. And then you realize, I've categories. And then you realize, I've just been given a message of great just been given a message of great just been given a message of great assurance at the beginning of a book assurance at the beginning of a book assurance at the beginning of a book that is going to unfold God's judgment that is going to unfold God's judgment that is going to unfold God's judgment uh, against the the kingdom of the uh, against the the kingdom of the uh, against the the kingdom of the earth. And so, um, earth. And so, um, earth. And so, um, that I think draws people in uh, in a that I think draws people in uh, in a that I think draws people in uh, in a way that speculating about headlines way that speculating about headlines way that speculating about headlines doesn't necessarily do.

doesn't necessarily do. doesn't necessarily do. >> Right. Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. So, I think when people often approach So, I think when people often approach So, I think when people often approach the book of Revelation, the book of Revelation, the book of Revelation, uh, they think of it from a variety of uh, they think of it from a variety of uh, they think of it from a variety of different perspectives, but one thing different perspectives, but one thing different perspectives, but one thing that does not seem to get uh, much that does not seem to get uh, much that does not seem to get uh, much attention is more of the sort of attention is more of the sort of attention is more of the sort of practical application that it has for practical application that it has for practical application that it has for the everyday Christian life. People the everyday Christian life. People the everyday Christian life. People approach it looking for, as you said, approach it looking for, as you said, approach it looking for, as you said, sort of some sort of map or timeline for sort of some sort of map or timeline for sort of some sort of map or timeline for the end times to try to figure it out, the end times to try to figure it out, the end times to try to figure it out, but it was originally communicated to a but it was originally communicated to a but it was originally communicated to a specific group of people for a specific specific group of people for a specific specific group of people for a specific purpose, and not just to satisfy what purpose, and not just to satisfy what purpose, and not just to satisfy what their curiosity might be, but to have their curiosity might be, but to have their curiosity might be, but to have very practical uh, application for their very practical uh, application for their very practical uh, application for their Christian life. So, as you have studied Christian life. So, as you have studied Christian life. So, as you have studied it, what are some of the key application it, what are some of the key application it, what are some of the key application points that come out of that that uh, points that come out of that that uh, points that come out of that that uh, someone could take away and say, okay, someone could take away and say, okay, someone could take away and say, okay, starting today, starting this week, here starting today, starting this week, here starting today, starting this week, here are some practical things, practical are some practical things, practical are some practical things, practical ways that I can respond to the message ways that I can respond to the message ways that I can respond to the message of Revelation. of Revelation. of Revelation. Well, first of all, I do think that it's Well, first of all, I do think that it's Well, first of all, I do think that it's preaching a message of endurance. And we preaching a message of endurance. And we preaching a message of endurance. And we hear that we're like, yeah, yeah, I want hear that we're like, yeah, yeah, I want hear that we're like, yeah, yeah, I want to endure, but we actually want to to endure, but we actually want to to endure, but we actually want to escape. And a lot of what we have been escape. And a lot of what we have been escape. And a lot of what we have been taught to think about the book of taught to think about the book of taught to think about the book of Revelation, or even this just the second Revelation, or even this just the second Revelation, or even this just the second coming of Christ, is um, escapist rather coming of Christ, is um, escapist rather coming of Christ, is um, escapist rather than endurance based. And so, I do think than endurance based. And so, I do think than endurance based. And so, I do think that when you commit to reading and that when you commit to reading and that when you commit to reading and rereading and rereading the Book of rereading and rereading the Book of rereading and rereading the Book of Revelation, you begin to realize, "Oh, Revelation, you begin to realize, "Oh, Revelation, you begin to realize, "Oh, it's not saying things will be a little it's not saying things will be a little it's not saying things will be a little hard and then we're out of here. It's hard and then we're out of here. It's hard and then we're out of here. It's saying, you know, by comparison, this is

saying, you know, by comparison, this is saying, you know, by comparison, this is a short period of time when you take a short period of time when you take a short period of time when you take into account the full span of human into account the full span of human into account the full span of human history or when you take into account history or when you take into account history or when you take into account eternity." Uh but it is saying things eternity." Uh but it is saying things eternity." Uh but it is saying things will be hard for you if you follow will be hard for you if you follow will be hard for you if you follow Christ and you're going to need Christ and you're going to need Christ and you're going to need endurance. endurance. endurance. And I think in a We live in an instant And I think in a We live in an instant And I think in a We live in an instant gratification culture that it impacts gratification culture that it impacts gratification culture that it impacts the church. Uh not only that, but the church. Uh not only that, but the church. Uh not only that, but there's individualism layered on top of there's individualism layered on top of there's individualism layered on top of that. And what the Book of Revelation is that. And what the Book of Revelation is that. And what the Book of Revelation is doing is militating against both of doing is militating against both of doing is militating against both of those things. It's saying it's going to those things. It's saying it's going to those things. It's saying it's going to it's going to require endurance. You're it's going to require endurance. You're it's going to require endurance. You're not meant to do it alone. Um but you can not meant to do it alone. Um but you can not meant to do it alone. Um but you can you can persevere. Um And so, it's God's you can persevere. Um And so, it's God's you can persevere. Um And so, it's God's faithfulness to all generations is what faithfulness to all generations is what faithfulness to all generations is what I think we see in in the Book of I think we see in in the Book of I think we see in in the Book of Revelation's message. And we need it Revelation's message. And we need it Revelation's message. And we need it because we don't want to endure because we don't want to endure because we don't want to endure anything. We don't want to endure anything. We don't want to endure anything. We don't want to endure waiting for a website to load more than waiting for a website to load more than waiting for a website to load more than 3 seconds. So, timely for us, for sure. 3 seconds. So, timely for us, for sure. 3 seconds. So, timely for us, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I I I agree. I think Absolutely. Yeah, I I I agree. I think Absolutely. Yeah, I I I agree. I think that in our current contemporary that in our current contemporary that in our current contemporary context, context, context, that message strikes even more painfully that message strikes even more painfully that message strikes even more painfully at us given our at us given our at us given our uh our just being accustomed to uh our just being accustomed to uh our just being accustomed to essentially instant gratification.

essentially instant gratification. essentially instant gratification. And that the Book of Revelation comes And that the Book of Revelation comes And that the Book of Revelation comes along and reminds us of the the long along and reminds us of the the long along and reminds us of the the long games, so to speak, that God is playing games, so to speak, that God is playing games, so to speak, that God is playing that we may not initially, you know, in that we may not initially, you know, in that we may not initially, you know, in every specific situation, we may not every specific situation, we may not every specific situation, we may not win. Right. win. Right. win. Right. >> But in the end, God does win. So, God's >> But in the end, God does win. So, God's >> But in the end, God does win. So, God's people sometimes do suffer temporary people sometimes do suffer temporary people sometimes do suffer temporary setbacks here in this world. They setbacks here in this world. They setbacks here in this world. They They're They're martyred. They suffer. They're They're martyred. They suffer. They're They're martyred. They suffer. And And there's no apparent, you know, And And there's no apparent, you know, And And there's no apparent, you know, in the moment obvious win for God's in the moment obvious win for God's in the moment obvious win for God's people. And yet in the longer span of people. And yet in the longer span of people. And yet in the longer span of what God is doing in human history, we what God is doing in human history, we what God is doing in human history, we know God does win in the end and uses know God does win in the end and uses know God does win in the end and uses the endurance and the suffering of his the endurance and the suffering of his the endurance and the suffering of his people to bring ironic glory to him. people to bring ironic glory to him. people to bring ironic glory to him. Yeah. Do you guys have a favorite thing Yeah. Do you guys have a favorite thing Yeah. Do you guys have a favorite thing about Revelation? I know you spent time about Revelation? I know you spent time about Revelation? I know you spent time in it, too. Let me ask you I'm going to in it, too. Let me ask you I'm going to in it, too. Let me ask you I'm going to ask you a question. Then I'll answer ask you a question. Then I'll answer ask you a question. Then I'll answer that cuz this is very interesting. that cuz this is very interesting. that cuz this is very interesting. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. When did you let symbolism into your When did you let symbolism into your When did you let symbolism into your heart? heart? heart? Oh, when did I ask it into my heart? Oh, when did I ask it into my heart? Oh, when did I ask it into my heart? I think when I when I started Genesis I think when I when I started Genesis I think when I when I started Genesis and Exodus. And you're like, okay. Yeah, and Exodus. And you're like, okay. Yeah, and Exodus. And you're like, okay. Yeah, well, you know, there I'm trying to well, you know, there I'm trying to well, you know, there I'm trying to think who it is who refers to Genesis as think who it is who refers to Genesis as think who it is who refers to Genesis as the seed plot of the Bible.

the seed plot of the Bible. the seed plot of the Bible. Um Um Um might be Arthur Pink, but I can't might be Arthur Pink, but I can't might be Arthur Pink, but I can't remember off the top of my head. And so, remember off the top of my head. And so, remember off the top of my head. And so, that means if I can nail what God that means if I can nail what God that means if I can nail what God planted there, you know, if I can get planted there, you know, if I can get planted there, you know, if I can get that straight in my head, then the whole that straight in my head, then the whole that straight in my head, then the whole rest of the Bible is going to rest of the Bible is going to rest of the Bible is going to fit a lot more cohesively for me. And fit a lot more cohesively for me. And fit a lot more cohesively for me. And I think it was after certainly after I think it was after certainly after I think it was after certainly after studying the creation account and studying the creation account and studying the creation account and discovering the framework discovering the framework discovering the framework theory of the creation account and theory of the creation account and theory of the creation account and realizing, oh, this this account of God realizing, oh, this this account of God realizing, oh, this this account of God doing a highly ordered work is itself doing a highly ordered work is itself doing a highly ordered work is itself highly ordered, which raised my highly ordered, which raised my highly ordered, which raised my expectation for what the rest of the expectation for what the rest of the expectation for what the rest of the Bible might be doing from a structural Bible might be doing from a structural Bible might be doing from a structural standpoint. standpoint. standpoint. And And And and then I was off to the races. You and then I was off to the races. You and then I was off to the races. You know, one of the things Well, one of the know, one of the things Well, one of the know, one of the things Well, one of the things that's so hard to convince people things that's so hard to convince people things that's so hard to convince people to do in the local church is to go to to do in the local church is to go to to do in the local church is to go to the Old Testament. They think it is hard the Old Testament. They think it is hard the Old Testament. They think it is hard to understand and it is if you haven't to understand and it is if you haven't to understand and it is if you haven't devoted some time to just reading. devoted some time to just reading. devoted some time to just reading. And so, I think the more comfortable I And so, I think the more comfortable I And so, I think the more comfortable I got as particularly with those first two got as particularly with those first two got as particularly with those first two books of the Bible, the more comfortable books of the Bible, the more comfortable books of the Bible, the more comfortable I got with the Bible as a whole. Yeah, I got with the Bible as a whole. Yeah, I got with the Bible as a whole. Yeah, that's good.

that's good. that's good. What was your question? Oh, I wanted to What was your question? Oh, I wanted to What was your question? Oh, I wanted to know what you guys like about know what you guys like about know what you guys like about Revelation. Like when you think about, Revelation. Like when you think about, Revelation. Like when you think about, yeah, that is a really great piece of yeah, that is a really great piece of yeah, that is a really great piece of it, what is it that comes to mind for it, what is it that comes to mind for it, what is it that comes to mind for you? Man, that's a lot. I mean, it's you? Man, that's a lot. I mean, it's you? Man, that's a lot. I mean, it's >> No, you made me choose, so I'm making >> No, you made me choose, so I'm making >> No, you made me choose, so I'm making you choose. As they say in the South, I you choose. As they say in the South, I you choose. As they say in the South, I love me some Revelation. love me some Revelation. love me some Revelation. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, you know, it's I'm a big Daniel guy. I you know, it's I'm a big Daniel guy. I you know, it's I'm a big Daniel guy. I did I did work on Daniel for my did I did work on Daniel for my did I did work on Daniel for my dissertation, and so in some sense it's dissertation, and so in some sense it's dissertation, and so in some sense it's it's always with me. it's always with me. it's always with me. So I do like to trace how Daniel So I do like to trace how Daniel So I do like to trace how Daniel influences the Book of Revelation, which influences the Book of Revelation, which influences the Book of Revelation, which is a very explicit. is a very explicit. is a very explicit. >> Mhm. Um I think one of the most >> Mhm. Um I think one of the most >> Mhm. Um I think one of the most compelling ways in which John does it, compelling ways in which John does it, compelling ways in which John does it, for example, in his inaugural vision for example, in his inaugural vision for example, in his inaugural vision with the Son of Man walking in the midst with the Son of Man walking in the midst with the Son of Man walking in the midst of the churches. of the churches. of the churches. >> it's fascinating because he takes >> it's fascinating because he takes >> it's fascinating because he takes the symbol that the Ancient of Days So the symbol that the Ancient of Days So the symbol that the Ancient of Days So the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 possesses white wool hair. possesses white wool hair. possesses white wool hair. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And then what does John do? John takes And then what does John do? John takes And then what does John do? John takes that same symbol that the Ancient of that same symbol that the Ancient of that same symbol that the Ancient of Days possesses, and he puts it on the Days possesses, and he puts it on the Days possesses, and he puts it on the Son of Man.

Son of Man. Son of Man. >> Yep. So that what is true >> Yep. So that what is true >> Yep. So that what is true of the Ancient of Days is true of Jesus. of the Ancient of Days is true of Jesus. of the Ancient of Days is true of Jesus. So because they are tote co-eternal. So because they are tote co-eternal. So because they are tote co-eternal. >> Mhm. They are one substance, to use >> Mhm. They are one substance, to use >> Mhm. They are one substance, to use those categories, and and John just does those categories, and and John just does those categories, and and John just does that over and over again. Yes. that over and over again. Yes. that over and over again. Yes. >> Over and over again. So Yahweh is the >> Over and over again. So Yahweh is the >> Over and over again. So Yahweh is the first and last, Jesus is the first and first and last, Jesus is the first and first and last, Jesus is the first and last. So he bears the same symbols, he last. So he bears the same symbols, he last. So he bears the same symbols, he bears the same titles, to where you bears the same titles, to where you bears the same titles, to where you learn that wait, Jesus is God. And they learn that wait, Jesus is God. And they learn that wait, Jesus is God. And they don't And this the New Testament is so don't And this the New Testament is so don't And this the New Testament is so clear here, they don't add clear here, they don't add clear here, they don't add Jesus to Yahweh, Jesus is Yahweh. Jesus to Yahweh, Jesus is Yahweh. Jesus to Yahweh, Jesus is Yahweh. >> It's not bitheism or tritheism, it's >> It's not bitheism or tritheism, it's >> It's not bitheism or tritheism, it's Jesus is Yahweh. And that's that's such Jesus is Yahweh. And that's that's such Jesus is Yahweh. And that's that's such an important move an important move an important move that John makes, huh? That's a good that John makes, huh? That's a good that John makes, huh? That's a good answer. What do you got, Matt? Yeah, answer. What do you got, Matt? Yeah, answer. What do you got, Matt? Yeah, what do you got? What do you got? what do you got? What do you got? what do you got? What do you got? >> So I'm going to go to Revelation 22, and >> So I'm going to go to Revelation 22, and >> So I'm going to go to Revelation 22, and the very end of the story. the very end of the story. the very end of the story. On multiple levels, On multiple levels, On multiple levels, I I come back to Revelation 22 I I come back to Revelation 22 I I come back to Revelation 22 regularly. regularly. regularly. Um often in my teaching, cuz I teach Um often in my teaching, cuz I teach Um often in my teaching, cuz I teach often teach undergrad students, many of often teach undergrad students, many of often teach undergrad students, many of whom have never thought of the Bible as whom have never thought of the Bible as whom have never thought of the Bible as a as a coherent story.

a as a coherent story. a as a coherent story. And so one of the eye-opening moments And so one of the eye-opening moments And so one of the eye-opening moments for them tends to be showing them for them tends to be showing them for them tends to be showing them Genesis 1-3 and then showing them Genesis 1-3 and then showing them Genesis 1-3 and then showing them Revelation 21 and 22 and seeing all of Revelation 21 and 22 and seeing all of Revelation 21 and 22 and seeing all of the parallels of what John is doing to the parallels of what John is doing to the parallels of what John is doing to help the reader see this is both the help the reader see this is both the help the reader see this is both the consummation and the reversal of the consummation and the reversal of the consummation and the reversal of the fall fall fall and and and that means that everything in between that means that everything in between that means that everything in between somehow moves you from those two points. somehow moves you from those two points. somehow moves you from those two points. And then just on a personal sort of And then just on a personal sort of And then just on a personal sort of spiritual encouragement level spiritual encouragement level spiritual encouragement level I think that that vision is intended to I think that that vision is intended to I think that that vision is intended to constantly lift our eyes up to our final constantly lift our eyes up to our final constantly lift our eyes up to our final destination. destination. destination. And in particular when when John And in particular when when John And in particular when when John describes how describes how describes how we are in that new Eden so to speak and we are in that new Eden so to speak and we are in that new Eden so to speak and that that language of they will see his that that language of they will see his that that language of they will see his face. face. face. And and that that just always encourages And and that that just always encourages And and that that just always encourages and moves me. Especially when you think and moves me. Especially when you think and moves me. Especially when you think back to back to back to in the Old Testament, you know, Moses in the Old Testament, you know, Moses in the Old Testament, you know, Moses asked to see God's glory and he says to asked to see God's glory and he says to asked to see God's glory and he says to Moses basically I'll put you in the Moses basically I'll put you in the Moses basically I'll put you in the cleft of a rock and my backside will cleft of a rock and my backside will cleft of a rock and my backside will pass by you.

pass by you. pass by you. Right. Like you can't see me face to Right. Like you can't see me face to Right. Like you can't see me face to face. It's too much for you. face. It's too much for you. face. It's too much for you. And then in the in in the new creation And then in the in in the new creation And then in the in in the new creation we will see him face to face. No more we will see him face to face. No more we will see him face to face. No more tears, no more effects of the curse. tears, no more effects of the curse. tears, no more effects of the curse. Living as God created us to be seeing Living as God created us to be seeing Living as God created us to be seeing him face to face and ruling over him face to face and ruling over him face to face and ruling over creation as we were intended to be. Like creation as we were intended to be. Like creation as we were intended to be. Like that that is consistently motivating and that that is consistently motivating and that that is consistently motivating and encouraging to me encouraging to me encouraging to me both both both just on the personal level and even just just on the personal level and even just just on the personal level and even just in helping I think believers persevere. in helping I think believers persevere. in helping I think believers persevere. That's part of what as you have so well That's part of what as you have so well That's part of what as you have so well stated to endure in the midst of that. stated to endure in the midst of that. stated to endure in the midst of that. That is that's our home. That's where That is that's our home. That's where That is that's our home. That's where we're going. And so we can endure hard we're going. And so we can endure hard we're going. And so we can endure hard things now because we know God wins and things now because we know God wins and things now because we know God wins and he has a place for us. he has a place for us. he has a place for us. >> So good. I think we have such a very >> So good. I think we have such a very >> So good. I think we have such a very human impulse to want to know the when human impulse to want to know the when human impulse to want to know the when and the how. and the how. and the how. Revelation isn't super concerned with Revelation isn't super concerned with Revelation isn't super concerned with answering that question for us, but I answering that question for us, but I answering that question for us, but I think particularly a lot of us have think particularly a lot of us have think particularly a lot of us have taken in a message taken in a message taken in a message um that God wants us to know the future.

um that God wants us to know the future. um that God wants us to know the future. Um and you know, I I would say the Um and you know, I I would say the Um and you know, I I would say the future belongs to the secret council of future belongs to the secret council of future belongs to the secret council of the Lord. the Lord. the Lord. Um and so if we come to Revelation Um and so if we come to Revelation Um and so if we come to Revelation saying tell me the future, then we're saying tell me the future, then we're saying tell me the future, then we're imposing on it a question it's not imposing on it a question it's not imposing on it a question it's not meaning to answer for us. I don't not meaning to answer for us. I don't not meaning to answer for us. I don't not don't mean to say it has nothing to tell don't mean to say it has nothing to tell don't mean to say it has nothing to tell us about the future, but the children of us about the future, but the children of us about the future, but the children of God walk by faith and not by sight. And God walk by faith and not by sight. And God walk by faith and not by sight. And once we stop straining forward asking once we stop straining forward asking once we stop straining forward asking what's coming and start looking behind what's coming and start looking behind what's coming and start looking behind and seeing what the Lord has done, then and seeing what the Lord has done, then and seeing what the Lord has done, then I think it comes into focus for us. I I think it comes into focus for us. I I think it comes into focus for us. I think you're exactly right. We receive think you're exactly right. We receive think you're exactly right. We receive the kind of assurance that the book is the kind of assurance that the book is the kind of assurance that the book is um intended to give us in the first um intended to give us in the first um intended to give us in the first place and it's a better assurance. Um I place and it's a better assurance. Um I place and it's a better assurance. Um I think we lie to ourselves that if we think we lie to ourselves that if we think we lie to ourselves that if we knew exactly what was coming tomorrow, knew exactly what was coming tomorrow, knew exactly what was coming tomorrow, we would make better decisions and we we would make better decisions and we we would make better decisions and we would be at peace, you know? Uh the Lord would be at peace, you know? Uh the Lord would be at peace, you know? Uh the Lord knows us better than we do. And so I knows us better than we do. And so I knows us better than we do. And so I like what the book of Revelation does do like what the book of Revelation does do like what the book of Revelation does do um better than what we have asked it to um better than what we have asked it to um better than what we have asked it to do. Yeah. I think Revelation's and I do. Yeah. I think Revelation's and I do. Yeah. I think Revelation's and I I don't think I'm a heretic for saying I don't think I'm a heretic for saying I don't think I'm a heretic for saying this. this. this. >> Well, we'll we'll let you know. You let >> Well, we'll we'll let you know. You let >> Well, we'll we'll let you know. You let me know. You let me know. You let me me know. You let me know. You let me me know. You let me know. You let me know. I know. I know. I I think it's the greatest book of the I think it's the greatest book of the I think it's the greatest book of the Bible.

Bible. Bible. >> Oh, heretic. >> Oh, heretic. >> Oh, heretic. I think it is. I think it is. I think it is. >> No, I think it is. It's from a literary >> No, I think it is. It's from a literary >> No, I think it is. It's from a literary from a literary just the theology that from a literary just the theology that from a literary just the theology that it's extremely So John it's extremely So John it's extremely So John is going to write that. He John is is going to write that. He John is is going to write that. He John is probably, let's say that John is 15 when probably, let's say that John is 15 when probably, let's say that John is 15 when he's a disciple of Christ. he's a disciple of Christ. he's a disciple of Christ. Well, that's, you know, Well, that's, you know, Well, that's, you know, 30 AD 30 AD 30 AD and John is going to write Revelation in and John is going to write Revelation in and John is going to write Revelation in the mid-90s, early 90s. the mid-90s, early 90s. the mid-90s, early 90s. So, let's say John is 15 when he is So, let's say John is 15 when he is So, let's say John is 15 when he is called as a disciple. He's 15. And then called as a disciple. He's 15. And then called as a disciple. He's 15. And then 60 years later, now he's 75. 60 years later, now he's 75. 60 years later, now he's 75. >> Mhm. And in you know, he could very well >> Mhm. And in you know, he could very well >> Mhm. And in you know, he could very well be pushing his 80s. be pushing his 80s. be pushing his 80s. So, here you have somebody. He's the So, here you have somebody. He's the So, here you have somebody. He's the last living apostle. last living apostle. last living apostle. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> He's thought >> He's thought >> He's thought longer about how Christ relates to longer about how Christ relates to longer about how Christ relates to Israel's story, to the world's story, to Israel's story, to the world's story, to Israel's story, to the world's story, to the Old Testament than anybody else. Any the Old Testament than anybody else. Any the Old Testament than anybody else. Any of the other apostles. of the other apostles. of the other apostles. And you see it come out. And I think And you see it come out. And I think And you see it come out. And I think that's why John's gospel that's why John's gospel that's why John's gospel it's it's it's clear, richer, all at once. And so, with clear, richer, all at once. And so, with clear, richer, all at once. And so, with Revelation, I think it's all the more. I Revelation, I think it's all the more. I Revelation, I think it's all the more. I think it really is the most think it really is the most think it really is the most sophisticated. That's me. I mean, All sophisticated. That's me. I mean, All sophisticated. That's me. I mean, All right, I will allow it. But, I have right, I will allow it. But, I have right, I will allow it. But, I have other books that you would You just other books that you would You just other books that you would You just threw Daniel under the bus.

threw Daniel under the bus. threw Daniel under the bus. >> I did. >> I did. >> I did. It's rude. It's rude. It's rude. >> It's top three. It's top three. >> It's top three. It's top three. >> It's top three. It's top three. >> Okay. Okay. Top three. No, don't make me >> Okay. Okay. Top three. No, don't make me >> Okay. Okay. Top three. No, don't make me choose my favorites. I don't want to choose my favorites. I don't want to choose my favorites. I don't want to choose my choose my choose my >> favorites. >> favorites. >> favorites. >> Well, you took my next question, then. >> Well, you took my next question, then. >> Well, you took my next question, then. Um, but so, Um, but so, Um, but so, what are some We We've kind of hinted at what are some We We've kind of hinted at what are some We We've kind of hinted at this a little bit, but what are some this a little bit, but what are some this a little bit, but what are some interpretive mistakes that you see interpretive mistakes that you see interpretive mistakes that you see people make when it comes to reading the people make when it comes to reading the people make when it comes to reading the Book of Revelation? Um, especially I'm Book of Revelation? Um, especially I'm Book of Revelation? Um, especially I'm not Let's say thinking so much on the not Let's say thinking so much on the not Let's say thinking so much on the scholarly level necessarily, but more scholarly level necessarily, but more scholarly level necessarily, but more just at the practical, sort of in the just at the practical, sort of in the just at the practical, sort of in the church pews kind of faithful Bible church pews kind of faithful Bible church pews kind of faithful Bible reader. When they read Revelation, what reader. When they read Revelation, what reader. When they read Revelation, what are some of the mistakes you see them are some of the mistakes you see them are some of the mistakes you see them making? I think one of the biggest making? I think one of the biggest making? I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make, and it's not mistakes that people make, and it's not mistakes that people make, and it's not just with Revelation, but it's more just with Revelation, but it's more just with Revelation, but it's more pronounced of a problem when you do it pronounced of a problem when you do it pronounced of a problem when you do it with Revelation, is expecting that they with Revelation, is expecting that they with Revelation, is expecting that they can read something and immediately draw can read something and immediately draw can read something and immediately draw a conclusion from it. And again, we're a conclusion from it. And again, we're a conclusion from it. And again, we're back to instant gratification. But, what back to instant gratification. But, what back to instant gratification. But, what a lot of our um a lot of our um a lot of our um uh people who are sitting in the pews uh people who are sitting in the pews uh people who are sitting in the pews have been catechized into is a have been catechized into is a have been catechized into is a devotional approach to reading the devotional approach to reading the devotional approach to reading the Bible. And that means they have their I Bible. And that means they have their I Bible. And that means they have their I like to call it a quiet time cuz I'm like to call it a quiet time cuz I'm like to call it a quiet time cuz I'm from Texas. They have their their quiet from Texas. They have their their quiet from Texas. They have their their quiet time and they've got 15 minutes. Maybe time and they've got 15 minutes. Maybe time and they've got 15 minutes. Maybe the more devout have a little bit the more devout have a little bit the more devout have a little bit longer. And what devotional reading longer. And what devotional reading longer. And what devotional reading conditions us into is that there should conditions us into is that there should conditions us into is that there should be an immediate emotional delivery on be an immediate emotional delivery on be an immediate emotional delivery on what I've read. Well, you bring that to what I've read. Well, you bring that to what I've read. Well, you bring that to Revelation and you're in for rough Revelation and you're in for rough Revelation and you're in for rough sailing. People don't write devotional sailing. People don't write devotional sailing. People don't write devotional books over Revelation. Also Leviticus

books over Revelation. Also Leviticus books over Revelation. Also Leviticus and a few other books, right? And and a few other books, right? And and a few other books, right? And there's a reason for that. And so there's a reason for that. And so there's a reason for that. And so Revelation requires a fortitude from us Revelation requires a fortitude from us Revelation requires a fortitude from us that other books of the Bible might not that other books of the Bible might not that other books of the Bible might not because it is opaque to you the first because it is opaque to you the first because it is opaque to you the first time that you hear it. time that you hear it. time that you hear it. We're 2,000 years removed from the world We're 2,000 years removed from the world We're 2,000 years removed from the world that that this was given to. that that this was given to. that that this was given to. Those seven churches, they knew they had Those seven churches, they knew they had Those seven churches, they knew they had some different reference points that we some different reference points that we some different reference points that we need to try to recapture. And so need to try to recapture. And so need to try to recapture. And so I think one of the biggest challenges is I think one of the biggest challenges is I think one of the biggest challenges is that people think I should read it and that people think I should read it and that people think I should read it and then the because the Holy Spirit speaks then the because the Holy Spirit speaks then the because the Holy Spirit speaks truth to me, I should get it right away. truth to me, I should get it right away. truth to me, I should get it right away. And so And so And so the most underutilized literacy building the most underutilized literacy building the most underutilized literacy building skill for people is repetitive reading. skill for people is repetitive reading. skill for people is repetitive reading. It's the easiest and it's the most It's the easiest and it's the most It's the easiest and it's the most underutilized. And so underutilized. And so underutilized. And so I think when they come to Revelation, if I think when they come to Revelation, if I think when they come to Revelation, if they will that's what I'm encouraged they will that's what I'm encouraged they will that's what I'm encouraged people who are thinking about doing the people who are thinking about doing the people who are thinking about doing the study to do is before you go and buy the study to do is before you go and buy the study to do is before you go and buy the study, just read it. Read it in study, just read it. Read it in study, just read it. Read it in different translations. Sit and listen different translations. Sit and listen different translations. Sit and listen to it. Let someone read it to you to it. Let someone read it to you to it. Let someone read it to you because it takes a while for us to because it takes a while for us to because it takes a while for us to be retrained into a more long-term be retrained into a more long-term be retrained into a more long-term approach. And with apocalyptic approach. And with apocalyptic approach. And with apocalyptic literature, man, you've got to slow literature, man, you've got to slow literature, man, you've got to slow down. You got to be patient with down. You got to be patient with down. You got to be patient with yourself and you have to give things yourself and you have to give things yourself and you have to give things time to start to emerge. And I think time to start to emerge. And I think time to start to emerge. And I think that that that you've hit on this that you've hit on this that you've hit on this that Christians need to learn to read at Christians need to learn to read at Christians need to learn to read at least in two different ways. One is the least in two different ways. One is the least in two different ways. One is the deep dive into the specific words and deep dive into the specific words and deep dive into the specific words and phrases and even, you know, tracing out

phrases and even, you know, tracing out phrases and even, you know, tracing out Old Testament allusions and where these Old Testament allusions and where these Old Testament allusions and where these things are coming from, but also the big things are coming from, but also the big things are coming from, but also the big picture large chunks of scripture, picture large chunks of scripture, picture large chunks of scripture, reading through the Book of Revelation reading through the Book of Revelation reading through the Book of Revelation even ideally, you know, if you set aside even ideally, you know, if you set aside even ideally, you know, if you set aside an hour. an hour. an hour. >> and 15 minutes. >> and 15 minutes. >> and 15 minutes. >> timed it out. There you go. >> timed it out. There you go. >> timed it out. There you go. >> hour and 15 minutes. >> hour and 15 minutes. >> hour and 15 minutes. >> read through it directly or let's sit >> read through it directly or let's sit >> read through it directly or let's sit and listen to it with various audio and listen to it with various audio and listen to it with various audio Bibles and that kind of thing. And I Bibles and that kind of thing. And I Bibles and that kind of thing. And I think you just notice very different think you just notice very different think you just notice very different things from the granular things from the granular things from the granular phrase-by-phrase thing than you do from phrase-by-phrase thing than you do from phrase-by-phrase thing than you do from the sweeping ongoing narrative where you the sweeping ongoing narrative where you the sweeping ongoing narrative where you realize, "Oh, that sounds familiar to realize, "Oh, that sounds familiar to realize, "Oh, that sounds familiar to me. Oh, that's We saw that language back me. Oh, that's We saw that language back me. Oh, that's We saw that language back in chapter four, didn't we?" Or "Oh, in chapter four, didn't we?" Or "Oh, in chapter four, didn't we?" Or "Oh, that came up in chapter six already." that came up in chapter six already." that came up in chapter six already." Like this is now the fourth time that Like this is now the fourth time that Like this is now the fourth time that we've seen this already. You don't see we've seen this already. You don't see we've seen this already. You don't see that as easily if you're doing the that as easily if you're doing the that as easily if you're doing the granular deep dive and alone and not the granular deep dive and alone and not the granular deep dive and alone and not the macro reading of it as well. macro reading of it as well. macro reading of it as well. >> Yeah, that's right. And I do think that >> Yeah, that's right. And I do think that >> Yeah, that's right. And I do think that the that's a good skill in any book of the that's a good skill in any book of the that's a good skill in any book of the Bible, but in Revelation in the Bible, but in Revelation in the Bible, but in Revelation in particular, that's the way the book was particular, that's the way the book was particular, that's the way the book was received by its original hearers. They received by its original hearers. They received by its original hearers. They sat and they heard it read aloud. They sat and they heard it read aloud. They sat and they heard it read aloud. They didn't have flip charts. They didn't didn't have flip charts. They didn't didn't have flip charts. They didn't have And I'm not I don't want to dog on have And I'm not I don't want to dog on have And I'm not I don't want to dog on the the camp of people who are the the camp of people who are the the camp of people who are particularly into charts and graphs, um particularly into charts and graphs, um particularly into charts and graphs, um but just to say that that certainly but just to say that that certainly but just to say that that certainly wasn't the starting point for wasn't the starting point for wasn't the starting point for understanding what this book meant. And understanding what this book meant. And understanding what this book meant. And that they heard it and they understood that they heard it and they understood that they heard it and they understood it. They took away what was necessary. I it. They took away what was necessary. I it. They took away what was necessary. I think there's good reason that the first think there's good reason that the first think there's good reason that the first time we hear it, we don't take away time we hear it, we don't take away time we hear it, we don't take away everything that they took away, but it everything that they took away, but it everything that they took away, but it doesn't mean that we can't get there.

doesn't mean that we can't get there. doesn't mean that we can't get there. And it is it's cinematic. It's meant to And it is it's cinematic. It's meant to And it is it's cinematic. It's meant to It's meant to fall on the inner eye in It's meant to fall on the inner eye in It's meant to fall on the inner eye in Technicolor. Uh one commentator Technicolor. Uh one commentator Technicolor. Uh one commentator mentioned it's about as long as a mentioned it's about as long as a mentioned it's about as long as a full-length feature film. So, we do have full-length feature film. So, we do have full-length feature film. So, we do have the attention span for that. When we the attention span for that. When we the attention span for that. When we when we understand um the significance when we understand um the significance when we understand um the significance of what we're going to gaze into. And we of what we're going to gaze into. And we of what we're going to gaze into. And we are allowed to let it wash over us. are allowed to let it wash over us. are allowed to let it wash over us. Um and then sure, then we need to get Um and then sure, then we need to get Um and then sure, then we need to get more granular in the way that we look at more granular in the way that we look at more granular in the way that we look at it. But yeah, it's people tend to it. But yeah, it's people tend to it. But yeah, it's people tend to exercise one skill or the other. They exercise one skill or the other. They exercise one skill or the other. They either are doing, you know, a Bible either are doing, you know, a Bible either are doing, you know, a Bible reading plan every year and going reading plan every year and going reading plan every year and going through at a pretty at a a sprint or through at a pretty at a a sprint or through at a pretty at a a sprint or they're like marathoning in in one book. they're like marathoning in in one book. they're like marathoning in in one book. And we need both of those things. But And we need both of those things. But And we need both of those things. But with this book, I think the thing we with this book, I think the thing we with this book, I think the thing we have lacked is to zoom out a little and have lacked is to zoom out a little and have lacked is to zoom out a little and get the whole flow. get the whole flow. get the whole flow. >> Yeah. Well, then we got time for one >> Yeah. Well, then we got time for one >> Yeah. Well, then we got time for one more question. So Make it a good one. more question. So Make it a good one. more question. So Make it a good one. It's like a burning question. It's like a burning question. It's like a burning question. >> good one. Okay. In your preparation for this study, I'm In your preparation for this study, I'm reading here. reading here. reading here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You can tell. You can tell. You can tell. >> Yeah. In your preparation for this >> Yeah. In your preparation for this >> Yeah. In your preparation for this study, what are some resources that you study, what are some resources that you study, what are some resources that you found were particularly beneficial for found were particularly beneficial for found were particularly beneficial for Revelation? Well, I did Revelation? Well, I did Revelation? Well, I did in good faith, I went to people of all in good faith, I went to people of all in good faith, I went to people of all different views.

different views. different views. >> Mhm. And >> Mhm. And >> Mhm. And the the people who I So when you're the the people who I So when you're the the people who I So when you're thinking about a Bible literacy approach thinking about a Bible literacy approach thinking about a Bible literacy approach and a symbolic reading of the book, it and a symbolic reading of the book, it and a symbolic reading of the book, it cannot be overstated what what Greg cannot be overstated what what Greg cannot be overstated what what Greg Beale has contributed Beale has contributed Beale has contributed >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I didn't go for the >> And I didn't go for the >> And I didn't go for the >> the big one? You went the shorter >> the big one? You went the shorter >> the big one? You went the shorter >> Heavens, no. >> Heavens, no. >> Heavens, no. >> Beale. Yeah, I did baby Beale. >> Beale. Yeah, I did baby Beale. >> Beale. Yeah, I did baby Beale. And and it was really helpful. I also And and it was really helpful. I also And and it was really helpful. I also listened to some sermon series that were listened to some sermon series that were listened to some sermon series that were helpful. There's a there's an Irish helpful. There's a there's an Irish helpful. There's a there's an Irish gentleman who's a dispensationalist and gentleman who's a dispensationalist and gentleman who's a dispensationalist and I his name is escaping me right now, who I his name is escaping me right now, who I his name is escaping me right now, who I thoroughly enjoyed. I thoroughly enjoyed. I thoroughly enjoyed. Even though I don't necessarily land in Even though I don't necessarily land in Even though I don't necessarily land in the same place on everything that he the same place on everything that he the same place on everything that he said. I wish I could remember his name said. I wish I could remember his name said. I wish I could remember his name on the spot, but it's not coming to me. on the spot, but it's not coming to me. on the spot, but it's not coming to me. Also, the accent made everything he said Also, the accent made everything he said Also, the accent made everything he said just so much more I'm like, I need an just so much more I'm like, I need an just so much more I'm like, I need an accent. People would people would like accent. People would people would like accent. People would people would like my teaching better if I had an accent. my teaching better if I had an accent. my teaching better if I had an accent. And then And then And then Kim Riddlebarger was a help to me mainly Kim Riddlebarger was a help to me mainly Kim Riddlebarger was a help to me mainly because the symbolic reading for me was because the symbolic reading for me was because the symbolic reading for me was something I needed to be stretched on as something I needed to be stretched on as something I needed to be stretched on as well.

well. well. And so those were helpful. and then um, And so those were helpful. and then um, And so those were helpful. and then um, Brian Tabb has a book that was that was Brian Tabb has a book that was that was Brian Tabb has a book that was that was really helpful to me. really helpful to me. really helpful to me. >> studies in biblical theology series, >> studies in biblical theology series, >> studies in biblical theology series, that one I believe. that one I believe. that one I believe. >> that's the one. >> that's the one. >> that's the one. >> gray. It's silver. Yeah. >> gray. It's silver. Yeah. >> gray. It's silver. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. It's not very long, but it >> Yeah, yeah. It's not very long, but it >> Yeah, yeah. It's not very long, but it had a lot of really helpful um, things had a lot of really helpful um, things had a lot of really helpful um, things to consider. And what I really did want to consider. And what I really did want to consider. And what I really did want to do was read broadly. Like most to do was read broadly. Like most to do was read broadly. Like most people, I had more exposure to one view people, I had more exposure to one view people, I had more exposure to one view than to others and that's something I than to others and that's something I than to others and that's something I challenge anyone who's going to do the challenge anyone who's going to do the challenge anyone who's going to do the study on is if you only know one view, study on is if you only know one view, study on is if you only know one view, you don't really have a view. You need you don't really have a view. You need you don't really have a view. You need to have been pressed on by by you know, to have been pressed on by by you know, to have been pressed on by by you know, the other views that are out there. Um, the other views that are out there. Um, the other views that are out there. Um, and so I needed to press myself on a and so I needed to press myself on a and so I needed to press myself on a couple of them that I was less familiar couple of them that I was less familiar couple of them that I was less familiar with. I had read uh, I think it's Keith with. I had read uh, I think it's Keith with. I had read uh, I think it's Keith Mathison's Postmillennialism and Mathison's Postmillennialism and Mathison's Postmillennialism and Eschatology of Hope. So that also was a Eschatology of Hope. So that also was a Eschatology of Hope. So that also was a reference point for me. Um, and then reference point for me. Um, and then reference point for me. Um, and then stepped back from stepped back from stepped back from trying to commit anyone to a particular trying to commit anyone to a particular trying to commit anyone to a particular view. I say I say I'm not recruiting. view. I say I say I'm not recruiting. view. I say I say I'm not recruiting. And just give them the symbolism that And just give them the symbolism that And just give them the symbolism that should be helpful no matter what should be helpful no matter what should be helpful no matter what position you land on. So whether I position you land on. So whether I position you land on. So whether I succeeded or not, you can go out and succeeded or not, you can go out and succeeded or not, you can go out and check those Amazon reviews and see.

check those Amazon reviews and see. check those Amazon reviews and see. >> Yeah, it may be a 4.2. >> Yeah, it may be a 4.2. >> Yeah, it may be a 4.2. >> A 4.2. Normally I get one-star reviews >> A 4.2. Normally I get one-star reviews >> A 4.2. Normally I get one-star reviews cuz the cover was ripped. Do you get cuz the cover was ripped. Do you get cuz the cover was ripped. Do you get those? those? those? >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. >> oh. I'm not actually >> oh. I'm not actually >> oh. I'm not actually shipping those from my living room, but shipping those from my living room, but shipping those from my living room, but thank you. thank you. thank you. >> to do? What do you want me to do? Yeah. >> to do? What do you want me to do? Yeah. >> to do? What do you want me to do? Yeah. It's always good to see, you know, your It's always good to see, you know, your It's always good to see, you know, your mom pop in a review. I'm like, mom pop in a review. I'm like, mom pop in a review. I'm like, appreciate that. Appreciate that. appreciate that. Appreciate that. appreciate that. Appreciate that. >> Thanks for representing. >> Thanks for representing. >> Thanks for representing. >> Raise those numbers. Yeah. Yes. Yes. >> Raise those numbers. Yeah. Yes. Yes. >> Raise those numbers. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, Jen, thanks so much for joining us Well, Jen, thanks so much for joining us Well, Jen, thanks so much for joining us today. today. today. Uh, for those who are interested, of Uh, for those who are interested, of Uh, for those who are interested, of course, you can find uh, more about Jen course, you can find uh, more about Jen course, you can find uh, more about Jen on uh, her website as we mentioned on uh, her website as we mentioned on uh, her website as we mentioned earlier. If you're interested earlier. If you're interested earlier. If you're interested specifically in the Revelation specifically in the Revelation specifically in the Revelation um, um, um, uh, study, you can find more information uh, study, you can find more information uh, study, you can find more information there uh, at lifeway.com/revelation. there uh, at lifeway.com/revelation. there uh, at lifeway.com/revelation. So Jen, again, thank you for taking time So Jen, again, thank you for taking time So Jen, again, thank you for taking time to to be with us today. Thanks so much to to be with us today. Thanks so much to to be with us today. Thanks so much for the great conversation. Yeah, our for the great conversation. Yeah, our for the great conversation. Yeah, our pleasure. And we would encourage you to pleasure. And we would encourage you to pleasure. And we would encourage you to check out other resources we have check out other resources we have check out other resources we have available at the Carson Center for available at the Carson Center for available at the Carson Center for Theological Renewal, part of the Gospel Theological Renewal, part of the Gospel Theological Renewal, part of the Gospel Coalition website. And if you're new to Coalition website. And if you're new to Coalition website. And if you're new to the podcast, we'd invite you to check the podcast, we'd invite you to check the podcast, we'd invite you to check out other episodes we have. But thanks out other episodes we have. But thanks out other episodes we have. But thanks for listening, and we look forward to for listening, and we look forward to for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again next time on the seeing you again next time on the seeing you again next time on the Biblical Theology Briefing.