AI and Formation: How Does AI Shape Our Loves? [Silicon Spiritualities - Ep. 2]

Well, hello and welcome to Silicon Well, hello and welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a podcast from the Spiritualities, a podcast from the Spiritualities, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition exploring what it means Gospel Coalition exploring what it means Gospel Coalition exploring what it means to be human in the age of AI. to be human in the age of AI. to be human in the age of AI. I'm Christopher Watkin and in this I'm Christopher Watkin and in this I'm Christopher Watkin and in this series we unpack three crucial series we unpack three crucial series we unpack three crucial questions. What can AI do for us? questions. What can AI do for us? questions. What can AI do for us? What is AI doing to us? And what is AI What is AI doing to us? And what is AI What is AI doing to us? And what is AI revealing about who we really are? revealing about who we really are? revealing about who we really are? Well, today it's my great joy to be Well, today it's my great joy to be Well, today it's my great joy to be joined by Dr. Michael Keller, lead joined by Dr. Michael Keller, lead joined by Dr. Michael Keller, lead pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square in New pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square in New pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square in New York City and also very helpfully for York City and also very helpfully for York City and also very helpfully for our discussion today, a PhD in our discussion today, a PhD in our discussion today, a PhD in computational linguistics who is using computational linguistics who is using computational linguistics who is using early machine learning methods in his early machine learning methods in his early machine learning methods in his work. And today, Michael and I are going work. And today, Michael and I are going work. And today, Michael and I are going to be discussing the technical realities to be discussing the technical realities to be discussing the technical realities of AI and the pastoral pressures that it of AI and the pastoral pressures that it of AI and the pastoral pressures that it brings as well, how it's shaping us, and brings as well, how it's shaping us, and brings as well, how it's shaping us, and how the gospel speaks into this moment how the gospel speaks into this moment how the gospel speaks into this moment in our culture. Michael, welcome to the in our culture. Michael, welcome to the in our culture. Michael, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Chris.

podcast. Thanks for having me, Chris. podcast. Thanks for having me, Chris. Really appreciate it, and I'm glad that Really appreciate it, and I'm glad that Really appreciate it, and I'm glad that you're doing uh this podcast, and I'm you're doing uh this podcast, and I'm you're doing uh this podcast, and I'm excited to see how it helps people, how excited to see how it helps people, how excited to see how it helps people, how it forms them as we talk about what it forms them as we talk about what it forms them as we talk about what forms us. and everything's always forms us. and everything's always forms us. and everything's always forming us including AI. So I think this forming us including AI. So I think this forming us including AI. So I think this is a a great conversation and hopefully is a a great conversation and hopefully is a a great conversation and hopefully it'll be helpful for as many people as it'll be helpful for as many people as it'll be helpful for as many people as possible. possible. possible. >> No, that is certainly our prayer, isn't >> No, that is certainly our prayer, isn't >> No, that is certainly our prayer, isn't it? Um we we want to point people to it? Um we we want to point people to it? Um we we want to point people to Jesus in this area of life as in every Jesus in this area of life as in every Jesus in this area of life as in every other area of life as well. Michael, I other area of life as well. Michael, I other area of life as well. Michael, I want to dive in with a scenario. I want want to dive in with a scenario. I want want to dive in with a scenario. I want you to imagine a young Christian you to imagine a young Christian you to imagine a young Christian professional. Let's call her Anna. Uh professional. Let's call her Anna. Uh professional. Let's call her Anna. Uh Anna wants to be faithful in her life, Anna wants to be faithful in her life, Anna wants to be faithful in her life, but it she finds that things are just but it she finds that things are just but it she finds that things are just getting fuller and faster with every getting fuller and faster with every getting fuller and faster with every passing year. And AI just saves her so passing year. And AI just saves her so passing year. And AI just saves her so much time at work. It drafts her emails much time at work. It drafts her emails much time at work. It drafts her emails for her. It's saving her hours a week. for her. It's saving her hours a week. for her. It's saving her hours a week. And recently, she's used it to start And recently, she's used it to start And recently, she's used it to start drafting her prayers, too. She still drafting her prayers, too. She still drafting her prayers, too. She still prays the prayers, but she often finds prays the prayers, but she often finds prays the prayers, but she often finds that the prayers drafted by AI are that the prayers drafted by AI are that the prayers drafted by AI are actually more insightful, more biblical, actually more insightful, more biblical, actually more insightful, more biblical, and often more nourishing for her than and often more nourishing for her than and often more nourishing for her than the prayers that she's written herself.

the prayers that she's written herself. the prayers that she's written herself. But after doing this for about a month, But after doing this for about a month, But after doing this for about a month, she starts to feel a bit unsettled by she starts to feel a bit unsettled by she starts to feel a bit unsettled by the whole process. um she's not really the whole process. um she's not really the whole process. um she's not really sat in silence before God and and sat in silence before God and and sat in silence before God and and struggled, you know, in God's presence struggled, you know, in God's presence struggled, you know, in God's presence within that month. Now, nothing within that month. Now, nothing within that month. Now, nothing dramatic's gone wrong. In fact, she dramatic's gone wrong. In fact, she dramatic's gone wrong. In fact, she feels that her spiritual life is, you feels that her spiritual life is, you feels that her spiritual life is, you know, going pretty well, actually. She know, going pretty well, actually. She know, going pretty well, actually. She just made it so frictionless that it's just made it so frictionless that it's just made it so frictionless that it's starting almost to feel like someone starting almost to feel like someone starting almost to feel like someone else's spiritual life and not hers. And else's spiritual life and not hers. And else's spiritual life and not hers. And I I'd love to ask you if you were I I'd love to ask you if you were I I'd love to ask you if you were sitting down for a coffee with Anna, how sitting down for a coffee with Anna, how sitting down for a coffee with Anna, how would you cancel her? Is anything going would you cancel her? Is anything going would you cancel her? Is anything going wrong? What should she do? wrong? What should she do? wrong? What should she do? >> This is a great question and I'm glad >> This is a great question and I'm glad >> This is a great question and I'm glad you're bringing it up, Chris. Um, you're bringing it up, Chris. Um, you're bringing it up, Chris. Um, yeah. I mean, I've actually already yeah. I mean, I've actually already yeah. I mean, I've actually already started to have these conversations with started to have these conversations with started to have these conversations with with individuals in my church because AI with individuals in my church because AI with individuals in my church because AI uh I mean, for uh not to talk just in uh I mean, for uh not to talk just in uh I mean, for uh not to talk just in generalities, but AI gives you access to generalities, but AI gives you access to generalities, but AI gives you access to not just information, but knowledge not just information, but knowledge not just information, but knowledge itself. But, you know, I think I think itself. But, you know, I think I think itself. But, you know, I think I think you could is it possible to know you could is it possible to know you could is it possible to know everything about somebody and not know everything about somebody and not know everything about somebody and not know some not actually know them? I think the some not actually know them? I think the some not actually know them? I think the answer is yes. I think you could study answer is yes. I think you could study answer is yes. I think you could study um everything about, you know, uh um everything about, you know, uh um everything about, you know, uh President Barack Obama in in America.

President Barack Obama in in America. President Barack Obama in in America. You can know everything about Barack You can know everything about Barack You can know everything about Barack Obama. Doesn't mean you actually know Obama. Doesn't mean you actually know Obama. Doesn't mean you actually know him. Um you haven't actually met him. him. Um you haven't actually met him. him. Um you haven't actually met him. And I think that's the problem that Anna And I think that's the problem that Anna And I think that's the problem that Anna is actually having right now because is actually having right now because is actually having right now because knowledge AI gives you all this knowledge AI gives you all this knowledge AI gives you all this information. It gives you all this information. It gives you all this information. It gives you all this knowledge, but it doesn't mean you knowledge, but it doesn't mean you knowledge, but it doesn't mean you actually it doesn't give you the person actually it doesn't give you the person actually it doesn't give you the person itself. And I think that's what she's itself. And I think that's what she's itself. And I think that's what she's struggling with. You can have an struggling with. You can have an struggling with. You can have an optimized optimized optimized conversation, you can have an optimi an conversation, you can have an optimi an conversation, you can have an optimi an optimized space of information, but in a optimized space of information, but in a optimized space of information, but in a frictionless uh space. I think what frictionless uh space. I think what frictionless uh space. I think what we've kind of forgotten is that we've kind of forgotten is that we've kind of forgotten is that sometimes friction is part of the sometimes friction is part of the sometimes friction is part of the journey and part of the process of journey and part of the process of journey and part of the process of actually getting to know anybody. And I actually getting to know anybody. And I actually getting to know anybody. And I think that's where she I think that's think that's where she I think that's think that's where she I think that's where she's missing out. C where she's missing out. C where she's missing out. C >> could you just unpack that that word >> could you just unpack that that word >> could you just unpack that that word that you use there, friction? What what that you use there, friction? What what that you use there, friction? What what do you mean by friction? And how how do you mean by friction? And how how do you mean by friction? And how how does that fit in our lives? How is it does that fit in our lives? How is it does that fit in our lives? How is it helpful? I mean, think of the gym. Like, helpful? I mean, think of the gym. Like, helpful? I mean, think of the gym. Like, if if I could give you a supplement if if I could give you a supplement if if I could give you a supplement where you would feel like you've worked where you would feel like you've worked where you would feel like you've worked out without actually having the exercise out without actually having the exercise out without actually having the exercise itself, you'd feel fine, but technically itself, you'd feel fine, but technically itself, you'd feel fine, but technically you'd gotten weaker. I think that's you'd gotten weaker. I think that's you'd gotten weaker. I think that's Anna. I think you can, you know, James 1 Anna. I think you can, you know, James 1 Anna. I think you can, you know, James 1 basically says that there's uh the basically says that there's uh the basically says that there's uh the trials itself produces the the um trials itself produces the the um trials itself produces the the um perseverance. It produces the character, perseverance. It produces the character, perseverance. It produces the character, produces the maturity, and the wrestling produces the maturity, and the wrestling produces the maturity, and the wrestling itself is actually part of the itself is actually part of the itself is actually part of the formation. and Anna removed that formation. and Anna removed that formation. and Anna removed that friction. So, she removed actually the friction. So, she removed actually the friction. So, she removed actually the output. She she got the output without output. She she got the output without output. She she got the output without the process. She got the the answers the process. She got the the answers the process. She got the the answers without the the work, so to speak. Um I without the the work, so to speak. Um I without the the work, so to speak. Um I actually may be a little bit too actually may be a little bit too actually may be a little bit too revealing here, but I in high school

revealing here, but I in high school revealing here, but I in high school I I I the the um in my physics class, I the the um in my physics class, I the the um in my physics class, I actually got caught up by the teacher. actually got caught up by the teacher. actually got caught up by the teacher. We had we had we were paired in in two We had we had we were paired in in two We had we had we were paired in in two in um just all of our tables were just in um just all of our tables were just in um just all of our tables were just two people. and I had a an A in the two people. and I had a an A in the two people. and I had a an A in the class and the teacher came up to me and class and the teacher came up to me and class and the teacher came up to me and said, "Michael, um, you cheated on this said, "Michael, um, you cheated on this said, "Michael, um, you cheated on this test." I said, "What do you mean I test." I said, "What do you mean I test." I said, "What do you mean I cheated on the test?" He said, "You you cheated on the test?" He said, "You you cheated on the test?" He said, "You you cheated on this test." And how do I cheated on this test." And how do I cheated on this test." And how do I know? He's like, I said, "How do you know? He's like, I said, "How do you know? He's like, I said, "How do you know?" And he goes, "Cuz you had all the know?" And he goes, "Cuz you had all the know?" And he goes, "Cuz you had all the right work, but then you had the exact right work, but then you had the exact right work, but then you had the exact same answer as the person next to you." same answer as the person next to you." same answer as the person next to you." And I was like, "Yeah, I did." And and And I was like, "Yeah, I did." And and And I was like, "Yeah, I did." And and we talked turned into a whole we talked turned into a whole we talked turned into a whole conversation about why and and um conversation about why and and um conversation about why and and um wanting to be right. But then you you wanting to be right. But then you you wanting to be right. But then you you gave he's like you gave the output but gave he's like you gave the output but gave he's like you gave the output but you didn't you had all the right work you didn't you had all the right work you didn't you had all the right work but you gave the you gave the wrong but you gave the you gave the wrong but you gave the you gave the wrong output. It's the same thing with with output. It's the same thing with with output. It's the same thing with with Anna. You have she had the the opposite Anna. You have she had the the opposite Anna. You have she had the the opposite thing. She had all the right um answer thing. She had all the right um answer thing. She had all the right um answer but she didn't actually do any of the but she didn't actually do any of the but she didn't actually do any of the work. And actually the true answer is work. And actually the true answer is work. And actually the true answer is actually both. You need to actually have actually both. You need to actually have actually both. You need to actually have the the work that you put into it and the the work that you put into it and the the work that you put into it and then the output itself. I I then the output itself. I I then the output itself. I I fundamentally agree with you, but I want fundamentally agree with you, but I want fundamentally agree with you, but I want to push back against you because I can to push back against you because I can to push back against you because I can hear some people listening or watching hear some people listening or watching hear some people listening or watching this saying, "Hold on. We've had this this saying, "Hold on. We've had this this saying, "Hold on. We've had this conversation with every new technology conversation with every new technology conversation with every new technology that's come along." So, the printing that's come along." So, the printing that's come along." So, the printing press back in the days of the press back in the days of the press back in the days of the Reformation, you no longer have to Reformation, you no longer have to Reformation, you no longer have to memorize huge swades of scripture memorize huge swades of scripture memorize huge swades of scripture because you've got it now in front of because you've got it now in front of because you've got it now in front of you. And that reduces friction. it it's you. And that reduces friction. it it's you. And that reduces friction. it it's not as there's not as much labor now in not as there's not as much labor now in not as there's not as much labor now in Bible study or you know the washing

Bible study or you know the washing Bible study or you know the washing machine that that takes friction out of machine that that takes friction out of machine that that takes friction out of life. We we constantly across human life. We we constantly across human life. We we constantly across human history been taking friction out of life history been taking friction out of life history been taking friction out of life and we generally tend to think a and we generally tend to think a and we generally tend to think a generation later that it's been a good generation later that it's been a good generation later that it's been a good thing. So why is AI different? Why thing. So why is AI different? Why thing. So why is AI different? Why should Anna not craft her prayers with should Anna not craft her prayers with should Anna not craft her prayers with AI? Is is that different to the printing AI? Is is that different to the printing AI? Is is that different to the printing press? Is it different to the washing press? Is it different to the washing press? Is it different to the washing machine? machine? machine? >> No. And I think this is a great question >> No. And I think this is a great question >> No. And I think this is a great question because I hopefully you don't hear me because I hopefully you don't hear me because I hopefully you don't hear me say don't use AI. I think the question say don't use AI. I think the question say don't use AI. I think the question is is how should you use AI? And to is is how should you use AI? And to is is how should you use AI? And to answer the question of how to use any answer the question of how to use any answer the question of how to use any kind of technology, you have to know kind of technology, you have to know kind of technology, you have to know what it's not just what it's optimizing, what it's not just what it's optimizing, what it's not just what it's optimizing, but what are we supposed to be using it but what are we supposed to be using it but what are we supposed to be using it for? To know what to use it for, you for? To know what to use it for, you for? To know what to use it for, you have to know what it means to be human have to know what it means to be human have to know what it means to be human and what does it mean to be uh the and what does it mean to be uh the and what does it mean to be uh the essence of our of our of our nature. So essence of our of our of our nature. So essence of our of our of our nature. So the question you're asking is before you the question you're asking is before you the question you're asking is before you can actually answer the question of can actually answer the question of can actually answer the question of should I use AI to do my prayers is what should I use AI to do my prayers is what should I use AI to do my prayers is what does it mean to be human when it comes does it mean to be human when it comes does it mean to be human when it comes to doing our our prayers and I think the to doing our our prayers and I think the to doing our our prayers and I think the information and the knowledge that AI information and the knowledge that AI information and the knowledge that AI can give you is great but can give you is great but can give you is great but again I think you can know everything again I think you can know everything again I think you can know everything about a person and it doesn't mean you about a person and it doesn't mean you about a person and it doesn't mean you actually know the person and part of actually know the person and part of actually know the person and part of prayer by definition isn't just the prayer by definition isn't just the prayer by definition isn't just the information that you're conveying and information that you're conveying and information that you're conveying and saying out loud that that you read off saying out loud that that you read off saying out loud that that you read off it's also what you embed it with what it's also what you embed it with what it's also what you embed it with what you embody uh in the prayer and that you embody uh in the prayer and that you embody uh in the prayer and that that that is that's takes a person it it that that is that's takes a person it it that that is that's takes a person it it doesn't matter what the output is so

doesn't matter what the output is so doesn't matter what the output is so final question on this is there any way final question on this is there any way final question on this is there any way in which it might be appropriate for in which it might be appropriate for in which it might be appropriate for Christians to use AI in the context of Christians to use AI in the context of Christians to use AI in the context of personal devotions personal devotions personal devotions if you were counseling Anna would you if you were counseling Anna would you if you were counseling Anna would you say look it's just a hard no this has say look it's just a hard no this has say look it's just a hard no this has got to be just between you and God. got to be just between you and God. got to be just between you and God. >> Yeah, that's a that's a great question. >> Yeah, that's a that's a great question. >> Yeah, that's a that's a great question. Um, I think you can use AI in Um, I think you can use AI in Um, I think you can use AI in in prep for personal devotions. I think in prep for personal devotions. I think in prep for personal devotions. I think you can use the prep of it. I think you can use the prep of it. I think you can use the prep of it. I think you have the knowledge that is found you have the knowledge that is found you have the knowledge that is found inside that AI kind of can give you um inside that AI kind of can give you um inside that AI kind of can give you um an output. But how should you use that an output. But how should you use that an output. But how should you use that knowledge and what to use that knowledge knowledge and what to use that knowledge knowledge and what to use that knowledge for? I don't think you can outsource for? I don't think you can outsource for? I don't think you can outsource that. I think it comes down to the the that. I think it comes down to the the that. I think it comes down to the the tieio's question of what we're using it tieio's question of what we're using it tieio's question of what we're using it for. So I'm not a a lite where I would for. So I'm not a a lite where I would for. So I'm not a a lite where I would say you can't use it at all for knowing say you can't use it at all for knowing say you can't use it at all for knowing the background of of the of the book of the background of of the of the book of the background of of the of the book of the Bible that you're going to read. the Bible that you're going to read. the Bible that you're going to read. Let's say to to that you're going to Let's say to to that you're going to Let's say to to that you're going to reflect on that you're going to pray reflect on that you're going to pray reflect on that you're going to pray through, but you can't outsource the through, but you can't outsource the through, but you can't outsource the actual relational aspect that a that a actual relational aspect that a that a actual relational aspect that a that a devotion time is. So I just I think it devotion time is. So I just I think it devotion time is. So I just I think it just depends on what you're using it for just depends on what you're using it for just depends on what you're using it for and what aspects.

and what aspects. and what aspects. >> Yeah, that's really helpful. And I think >> Yeah, that's really helpful. And I think >> Yeah, that's really helpful. And I think in the same way that you you probably in the same way that you you probably in the same way that you you probably wouldn't want to use AI to draft a love wouldn't want to use AI to draft a love wouldn't want to use AI to draft a love letter to your spouse even if you tweak letter to your spouse even if you tweak letter to your spouse even if you tweak it for the final version. You know, you it for the final version. You know, you it for the final version. You know, you think there's something deficient about think there's something deficient about think there's something deficient about that. In the same way you you probably that. In the same way you you probably that. In the same way you you probably wouldn't want to use AI to draft, so to wouldn't want to use AI to draft, so to wouldn't want to use AI to draft, so to speak, you know, a letter to God, a speak, you know, a letter to God, a speak, you know, a letter to God, a prayer to God. That there are certain prayer to God. That there are certain prayer to God. That there are certain modes of of communication that are so modes of of communication that are so modes of of communication that are so personal that that what really matters personal that that what really matters personal that that what really matters is that it's your heart, isn't it? is is that it's your heart, isn't it? is is that it's your heart, isn't it? is coming from you. I think this is this is coming from you. I think this is this is coming from you. I think this is this is the questions that I think a lot of the questions that I think a lot of the questions that I think a lot of people are asking which is particularly people are asking which is particularly people are asking which is particularly in the pastoral office people are are in the pastoral office people are are in the pastoral office people are are drafting not not just the pastoral drafting not not just the pastoral drafting not not just the pastoral office a lot of folks are actually using office a lot of folks are actually using office a lot of folks are actually using AI to write um like how do I do conflict AI to write um like how do I do conflict AI to write um like how do I do conflict how do apologies how do I do these these how do apologies how do I do these these how do apologies how do I do these these kind things and kind things and kind things and there is a preparation for it but then there is a preparation for it but then there is a preparation for it but then there's a risk that you actually have there's a risk that you actually have there's a risk that you actually have the veneer of of expertise and that you the veneer of of expertise and that you the veneer of of expertise and that you have the answers of how to do it without have the answers of how to do it without have the answers of how to do it without actually doing the work to actually get actually doing the work to actually get actually doing the work to actually get to that spot. And I think people can to that spot. And I think people can to that spot. And I think people can sniff out the difference. And I I mean sniff out the difference. And I I mean sniff out the difference. And I I mean this to be a little with a little cheeky this to be a little with a little cheeky this to be a little with a little cheeky about this, I think God can smell the about this, I think God can smell the about this, I think God can smell the difference, too, between somebody who difference, too, between somebody who difference, too, between somebody who actually is coming before him with their actually is coming before him with their actually is coming before him with their own cares and needs and, own cares and needs and, own cares and needs and, you know, hopes and dreams and then also you know, hopes and dreams and then also you know, hopes and dreams and then also what they're being told to say from a what they're being told to say from a what they're being told to say from a predictive, you know, um, equation and predictive, you know, um, equation and predictive, you know, um, equation and script from AI.

script from AI. script from AI. >> Yeah. No, that's so helpful. That's so >> Yeah. No, that's so helpful. That's so >> Yeah. No, that's so helpful. That's so helpful. Thank you. I in the intro I helpful. Thank you. I in the intro I helpful. Thank you. I in the intro I mentioned that you'd written a a PhD and mentioned that you'd written a a PhD and mentioned that you'd written a a PhD and you were using some early machine you were using some early machine you were using some early machine learning methods in that work. I' I'd learning methods in that work. I' I'd learning methods in that work. I' I'd love you just tell us a little bit about love you just tell us a little bit about love you just tell us a little bit about that work. How were you using AI or or that work. How were you using AI or or that work. How were you using AI or or sort of ancestor technologies of AI sort of ancestor technologies of AI sort of ancestor technologies of AI there and how has that shaped your view there and how has that shaped your view there and how has that shaped your view of the the AI revolution that that we're of the the AI revolution that that we're of the the AI revolution that that we're seeing today? Yeah, I I completed my PhD seeing today? Yeah, I I completed my PhD seeing today? Yeah, I I completed my PhD in 2018, which is AI at the time was um in 2018, which is AI at the time was um in 2018, which is AI at the time was um more it was definitely algorithmic. It more it was definitely algorithmic. It more it was definitely algorithmic. It was using a lot of these um LLMs, large was using a lot of these um LLMs, large was using a lot of these um LLMs, large models and and having the equations, the models and and having the equations, the models and and having the equations, the predictive equations on top of it. Um predictive equations on top of it. Um predictive equations on top of it. Um now a lot of the AI has programs to make now a lot of the AI has programs to make now a lot of the AI has programs to make it more accessible and helpful. But the it more accessible and helpful. But the it more accessible and helpful. But the PhD that I um I did was taking a lot of PhD that I um I did was taking a lot of PhD that I um I did was taking a lot of words from Jonathan Edwards and putting words from Jonathan Edwards and putting words from Jonathan Edwards and putting them into uh this uh them into uh this uh them into uh this uh for lack of a better term um using for lack of a better term um using for lack of a better term um using predictive algorithmic um text to try to predictive algorithmic um text to try to predictive algorithmic um text to try to find out quantitatively what's actually find out quantitatively what's actually find out quantitatively what's actually happening going on because what AI does happening going on because what AI does happening going on because what AI does is it takes words and puts them into is it takes words and puts them into is it takes words and puts them into numbers so it can be processed by numbers so it can be processed by numbers so it can be processed by computers. Uh, and we can get lots of computers. Uh, and we can get lots of computers. Uh, and we can get lots of different aspects of a word. There's different aspects of a word. There's different aspects of a word. There's lots of different sides. There's po lots of different sides. There's po lots of different sides. There's po there's positive versus negative, there's positive versus negative, there's positive versus negative, passive versus active, concrete versus passive versus active, concrete versus passive versus active, concrete versus non-concreet. Really, a lot of these um

non-concreet. Really, a lot of these um non-concreet. Really, a lot of these um equations now are just so multiaceted. equations now are just so multiaceted. equations now are just so multiaceted. There's just so many different uh There's just so many different uh There's just so many different uh aspects of every single word. And then aspects of every single word. And then aspects of every single word. And then it's giving you an output uh of a it's giving you an output uh of a it's giving you an output uh of a predictive text of a p of a of a pattern predictive text of a p of a of a pattern predictive text of a p of a of a pattern because that's basically what AI is. is because that's basically what AI is. is because that's basically what AI is. is it's it's a guess a very very good way it's it's a guess a very very good way it's it's a guess a very very good way of guessing what the next word should be of guessing what the next word should be of guessing what the next word should be in a series of of words. Um and I think in a series of of words. Um and I think in a series of of words. Um and I think it's a it's amazing at finding it's a it's amazing at finding it's a it's amazing at finding statistical patterns that previously statistical patterns that previously statistical patterns that previously would be hard for us to actually find. would be hard for us to actually find. would be hard for us to actually find. >> How has [sighs] that helped you to >> How has [sighs] that helped you to >> How has [sighs] that helped you to counsel people or to understand for counsel people or to understand for counsel people or to understand for yourself yourself yourself what's going on with AI? what what's if what's going on with AI? what what's if what's going on with AI? what what's if you like under the hood of the the hype you like under the hood of the the hype you like under the hood of the the hype that we hear about AI today? that we hear about AI today? that we hear about AI today? >> That's a great question. I I think the >> That's a great question. I I think the >> That's a great question. I I think the more I've I've thought about it and more I've I've thought about it and more I've I've thought about it and putting me because I got to start putting me because I got to start putting me because I got to start working with stuff early on, I think working with stuff early on, I think working with stuff early on, I think I've been able to early on kind of say I've been able to early on kind of say I've been able to early on kind of say what does it mean to be human that lives what does it mean to be human that lives what does it mean to be human that lives outside of patterns when it comes to outside of patterns when it comes to outside of patterns when it comes to intent, relationship, embodiment, intent, relationship, embodiment, intent, relationship, embodiment, history, and what is actually inside of history, and what is actually inside of history, and what is actually inside of patterns. And so, um, in this kind of patterns. And so, um, in this kind of patterns. And so, um, in this kind of cultural moment, I didn't come in as cultural moment, I didn't come in as cultural moment, I didn't come in as like a a skeptic. I I came in as like, like a a skeptic. I I came in as like, like a a skeptic. I I came in as like, okay, there's something that these okay, there's something that these okay, there's something that these algorithms can be very helpful with when algorithms can be very helpful with when algorithms can be very helpful with when it comes to processing information.

it comes to processing information. it comes to processing information. But there's also a place where it can't, But there's also a place where it can't, But there's also a place where it can't, you know, what what it can't do. It you know, what what it can't do. It you know, what what it can't do. It can't love you back. can't it's not it's can't love you back. can't it's not it's can't love you back. can't it's not it's not actually able not actually able not actually able to be human in the sense of to be human in the sense of to be human in the sense of agency and actually what we ought to do agency and actually what we ought to do agency and actually what we ought to do with what we are given because you can with what we are given because you can with what we are given because you can get all again I mean I'm going to be a get all again I mean I'm going to be a get all again I mean I'm going to be a broken record today but I think you can broken record today but I think you can broken record today but I think you can have all the information in the world have all the information in the world have all the information in the world you can know everything but what you you can know everything but what you you can know everything but what you should do with that is is still should do with that is is still should do with that is is still a predictive text can tell you what it a predictive text can tell you what it a predictive text can tell you what it thinks you should do with it but until thinks you should do with it but until thinks you should do with it but until you actually do something with it that you actually do something with it that you actually do something with it that still takes humanity Isn't the issue still takes humanity Isn't the issue still takes humanity Isn't the issue today today today largely that do you know what it feels largely that do you know what it feels largely that do you know what it feels as though it loves me back? Like when it as though it loves me back? Like when it as though it loves me back? Like when it talks to me, I feel seen and understood talks to me, I feel seen and understood talks to me, I feel seen and understood perhaps in a way, you know, for some perhaps in a way, you know, for some perhaps in a way, you know, for some people that I I don't even feel people that I I don't even feel people that I I don't even feel understood by other human beings. And understood by other human beings. And understood by other human beings. And yeah, I might know that, you know, deep yeah, I might know that, you know, deep yeah, I might know that, you know, deep down in its bowels, all it's really down in its bowels, all it's really down in its bowels, all it's really doing is predicting the next word in a a doing is predicting the next word in a a doing is predicting the next word in a a sequence or the next token in a sequence or the next token in a sequence or the next token in a sequence, but by golly, I really enjoy sequence, but by golly, I really enjoy sequence, but by golly, I really enjoy engaging with it and it's fun and I feel engaging with it and it's fun and I feel engaging with it and it's fun and I feel seen.

seen. seen. How would you How would you How would you >> talk to someone who who comes to you >> talk to someone who who comes to you >> talk to someone who who comes to you saying, "Look, I don't care what's going saying, "Look, I don't care what's going saying, "Look, I don't care what's going on behind the scenes. This is just a on behind the scenes. This is just a on behind the scenes. This is just a really rich relational experience for really rich relational experience for really rich relational experience for me. Chris, let me ask you a question. me. Chris, let me ask you a question. me. Chris, let me ask you a question. Have you ever been in a situation where Have you ever been in a situation where Have you ever been in a situation where you thought you understood what was you thought you understood what was you thought you understood what was going on and then it turns out that you going on and then it turns out that you going on and then it turns out that you didn't? Like not necessarily deception, didn't? Like not necessarily deception, didn't? Like not necessarily deception, but like misunderstanding where you you but like misunderstanding where you you but like misunderstanding where you you you [snorts] were so positive of a you [snorts] were so positive of a you [snorts] were so positive of a certain situation. Um, and then it turns certain situation. Um, and then it turns certain situation. Um, and then it turns out that out that out that it it wasn't actually that way because I it it wasn't actually that way because I it it wasn't actually that way because I want to know the difference between if want to know the difference between if want to know the difference between if AI is a prediction, I think it's a AI is a prediction, I think it's a AI is a prediction, I think it's a prediction engine dressed up as a prediction engine dressed up as a prediction engine dressed up as a conversation partner. And what I mean by conversation partner. And what I mean by conversation partner. And what I mean by that is it can of course if it can that is it can of course if it can that is it can of course if it can predict the next word, it's going to predict the next word, it's going to predict the next word, it's going to potentially mimic exactly what you want potentially mimic exactly what you want potentially mimic exactly what you want out of a relationship. That is not the out of a relationship. That is not the out of a relationship. That is not the same thing as actually a relationship. same thing as actually a relationship. same thing as actually a relationship. Have you ever been in a situation where Have you ever been in a situation where Have you ever been in a situation where you thought you thought you thought uh this was something was real and turns uh this was something was real and turns uh this was something was real and turns out it wasn't? It was fake. Um I I've out it wasn't? It was fake. Um I I've out it wasn't? It was fake. Um I I've certainly the thing that comes to mind certainly the thing that comes to mind certainly the thing that comes to mind when you say that is I've on occasion when you say that is I've on occasion when you say that is I've on occasion accused my children of doing something accused my children of doing something accused my children of doing something that so I read what I thought the that so I read what I thought the that so I read what I thought the situation was and it turns out that it situation was and it turns out that it situation was and it turns out that it wasn't like that and they hadn't done wasn't like that and they hadn't done wasn't like that and they hadn't done the thing that I accused them of. I feel the thing that I accused them of. I feel the thing that I accused them of. I feel very sheepish afterwards. I'm so sorry.

very sheepish afterwards. I'm so sorry. very sheepish afterwards. I'm so sorry. Um, I thought you'd spilt the milk or Um, I thought you'd spilt the milk or Um, I thought you'd spilt the milk or whatever it was. Um, but it wasn't you. whatever it was. Um, but it wasn't you. whatever it was. Um, but it wasn't you. Um, Um, Um, so yes, I I I've been in that sort of so yes, I I I've been in that sort of so yes, I I I've been in that sort of situation. Is that what you mean? situation. Is that what you mean? situation. Is that what you mean? >> Yeah. Like, have you ever been in a >> Yeah. Like, have you ever been in a >> Yeah. Like, have you ever been in a situation where situation where situation where something mimics what you or or presents something mimics what you or or presents something mimics what you or or presents as if it one reality, it turns out it's as if it one reality, it turns out it's as if it one reality, it turns out it's a very different one. I I I I I think um a very different one. I I I I I think um a very different one. I I I I I think um an output based on the probability of a an output based on the probability of a an output based on the probability of a sequencing of information, sequencing of information, sequencing of information, it is predictive, but it's not telling it is predictive, but it's not telling it is predictive, but it's not telling you what actually is true. It tells you you what actually is true. It tells you you what actually is true. It tells you what statistically is likely to follow what statistically is likely to follow what statistically is likely to follow in the very next line. in the very next line. in the very next line. >> And it can do that very amazingly, but >> And it can do that very amazingly, but >> And it can do that very amazingly, but it's kind of like it's sort of like a a it's kind of like it's sort of like a a it's kind of like it's sort of like a a very sophisticated autocomplete very sophisticated autocomplete very sophisticated autocomplete of every book that's ever been written. of every book that's ever been written. of every book that's ever been written. That's what AI can do is it can finish That's what AI can do is it can finish That's what AI can do is it can finish your sentence brilliantly, but it has no your sentence brilliantly, but it has no your sentence brilliantly, but it has no idea. It itself has no idea what you idea. It itself has no idea what you idea. It itself has no idea what you actually mean. It's just guessing what actually mean. It's just guessing what actually mean. It's just guessing what it thinks that it should be versus what it thinks that it should be versus what it thinks that it should be versus what actually is. And that's those are actually is. And that's those are actually is. And that's those are differences to me.

differences to me. differences to me. >> Yeah. No, I see what you mean that the >> Yeah. No, I see what you mean that the >> Yeah. No, I see what you mean that the the way that I've tried to talk about the way that I've tried to talk about the way that I've tried to talk about that sometimes is that large language that sometimes is that large language that sometimes is that large language models always speak to us in the models always speak to us in the models always speak to us in the conditional mood. So it's it's never conditional mood. So it's it's never conditional mood. So it's it's never an individual person saying this an individual person saying this an individual person saying this whatever it is like I love you. It's whatever it is like I love you. It's whatever it is like I love you. It's always this is what someone in this sort always this is what someone in this sort always this is what someone in this sort of conversation would likely say. So of conversation would likely say. So of conversation would likely say. So it's it's always a would sentence. it's it's always a would sentence. it's it's always a would sentence. That's right. That's right. That's right. >> Like someone would say next I love you >> Like someone would say next I love you >> Like someone would say next I love you >> which is very different to someone >> which is very different to someone >> which is very different to someone actually saying [laughter] actually saying [laughter] actually saying [laughter] >> I love you. >> I love you. >> I love you. >> Yeah. And that that process produces >> Yeah. And that that process produces >> Yeah. And that that process produces outputs that look like understanding. It outputs that look like understanding. It outputs that look like understanding. It looks like it can be your friend. it looks like it can be your friend. it looks like it can be your friend. it looks like, but it actually isn't looks like, but it actually isn't looks like, but it actually isn't understanding at the end of the day. understanding at the end of the day. understanding at the end of the day. It's an equation. Um, a very very good It's an equation. Um, a very very good It's an equation. Um, a very very good one, but and so it looks fluent. It one, but and so it looks fluent. It one, but and so it looks fluent. It looks like comprehension, but it's looks like comprehension, but it's looks like comprehension, but it's actually just um it's a guess. Let's get actually just um it's a guess. Let's get actually just um it's a guess. Let's get pastoral about this. So, there are these pastoral about this. So, there are these pastoral about this. So, there are these large language models that that pass large language models that that pass large language models that that pass very effectively for human beings who very effectively for human beings who very effectively for human beings who see us and love us and make us laugh and see us and love us and make us laugh and see us and love us and make us laugh and help us in lots of different ways. and help us in lots of different ways. and help us in lots of different ways. and you're pastoring a church full of you're pastoring a church full of you're pastoring a church full of people, I assume, who are using these people, I assume, who are using these people, I assume, who are using these technologies regularly.

technologies regularly. technologies regularly. What are some of the ways that you're What are some of the ways that you're What are some of the ways that you're seeing AI perhaps help Christians and seeing AI perhaps help Christians and seeing AI perhaps help Christians and churches and what are some of the churches and what are some of the churches and what are some of the dangers you see among the people that dangers you see among the people that dangers you see among the people that you're pastoring? you're pastoring? you're pastoring? >> Yeah. Um, yeah, I'd love to hear where >> Yeah. Um, yeah, I'd love to hear where >> Yeah. Um, yeah, I'd love to hear where you think the the benefits are as well. you think the the benefits are as well. you think the the benefits are as well. I mean, again, I I think there's this is I mean, again, I I think there's this is I mean, again, I I think there's this is amazing technology. Um, I've been saying amazing technology. Um, I've been saying amazing technology. Um, I've been saying a phrase recently to to folks in my a phrase recently to to folks in my a phrase recently to to folks in my conversation that if AI is doing to conversation that if AI is doing to conversation that if AI is doing to knowledge what the internet did to knowledge what the internet did to knowledge what the internet did to information, the internet gave access to information, the internet gave access to information, the internet gave access to information because now you know where information because now you know where information because now you know where everything is, but it it did it through everything is, but it it did it through everything is, but it it did it through a ranking system where you still had to a ranking system where you still had to a ranking system where you still had to decide decide decide uh you know what actually is true or uh you know what actually is true or uh you know what actually is true or not. What AI is doing is giving people not. What AI is doing is giving people not. What AI is doing is giving people the access to knowledge. It's like a PhD the access to knowledge. It's like a PhD the access to knowledge. It's like a PhD in everybody's pocket. what you do with in everybody's pocket. what you do with in everybody's pocket. what you do with that information and knowledge is that information and knowledge is that information and knowledge is actually actually actually still needed. I think there's a a still needed. I think there's a a still needed. I think there's a a cultural apologetic where we we live in cultural apologetic where we we live in cultural apologetic where we we live in a culture where people say, you know, a culture where people say, you know, a culture where people say, you know, science can tell us how to live.

science can tell us how to live. science can tell us how to live. I would argue that science can tell us I would argue that science can tell us I would argue that science can tell us what is. It can't tell us what we ought what is. It can't tell us what we ought what is. It can't tell us what we ought to do. But I would argue so is to do. But I would argue so is to do. But I would argue so is technology. Technology is a technology. Technology is a technology. Technology is a scientifically made instrument. It can scientifically made instrument. It can scientifically made instrument. It can tell us what is. It can't tell us what tell us what is. It can't tell us what tell us what is. It can't tell us what we ought to do. So there's a lot of is we ought to do. So there's a lot of is we ought to do. So there's a lot of is out there. And that's really amazing cuz out there. And that's really amazing cuz out there. And that's really amazing cuz previously I didn't know what is when it previously I didn't know what is when it previously I didn't know what is when it came to came to came to um building a um building a um building a uh a website with because I couldn't uh a website with because I couldn't uh a website with because I couldn't code because I couldn't do this stuff. code because I couldn't do this stuff. code because I couldn't do this stuff. But AI now is giving people that access But AI now is giving people that access But AI now is giving people that access to create in ways that we were built to to create in ways that we were built to to create in ways that we were built to as humans to to build that we didn't as humans to to build that we didn't as humans to to build that we didn't used to at all. I think there's a lot of used to at all. I think there's a lot of used to at all. I think there's a lot of beauty, a lot of wonder, a lot of great beauty, a lot of wonder, a lot of great beauty, a lot of wonder, a lot of great things about that. what it can't give things about that. what it can't give things about that. what it can't give you. you. you. Unfortunately, the top I think the Unfortunately, the top I think the Unfortunately, the top I think the Harvard Business Review in 2025 said the Harvard Business Review in 2025 said the Harvard Business Review in 2025 said the top three uses for AI was companionship top three uses for AI was companionship top three uses for AI was companionship therapy um organizing your life and you therapy um organizing your life and you therapy um organizing your life and you know meaning and purpose and I I I think know meaning and purpose and I I I think know meaning and purpose and I I I think those are all the three things that you those are all the three things that you those are all the three things that you really can't should not be going to it really can't should not be going to it really can't should not be going to it other than again it can give you other than again it can give you other than again it can give you knowledge of those things knowledge of those things knowledge of those things but can it actually it's guessing what but can it actually it's guessing what but can it actually it's guessing what it thinks that you should be doing but it thinks that you should be doing but it thinks that you should be doing but that's very different than the that's very different than the that's very different than the truthfulness of truthfulness of truthfulness of >> of it like I think I for instance I >> of it like I think I for instance I >> of it like I think I for instance I think AI people going to it for think AI people going to it for think AI people going to it for friendship is more indicative of what of friendship is more indicative of what of friendship is more indicative of what of our loneliness epidemic than what it is our loneliness epidemic than what it is our loneliness epidemic than what it is about AI. Does that make sense? It's not about AI. Does that make sense? It's not about AI. Does that make sense? It's not AI's fault that we're going to it about AI's fault that we're going to it about AI's fault that we're going to it about friendship. It's it's showing us how friendship. It's it's showing us how friendship. It's it's showing us how lonely we really are. And I I think lonely we really are. And I I think lonely we really are. And I I think that's where our Yeah, I think that's that's where our Yeah, I think that's that's where our Yeah, I think that's where some of the problems are. But what where some of the problems are. But what where some of the problems are. But what what Chris, what are you what are you

what Chris, what are you what are you what Chris, what are you what are you observing as far as good and bad? I observing as far as good and bad? I observing as far as good and bad? I think for for me and people who work in think for for me and people who work in think for for me and people who work in in academia like me, one of the great in academia like me, one of the great in academia like me, one of the great things about AI is that it's helping us things about AI is that it's helping us things about AI is that it's helping us to be good enough at skills that we just to be good enough at skills that we just to be good enough at skills that we just don't have don't have don't have >> to to get get our things done. So, >> to to get get our things done. So, >> to to get get our things done. So, recently I had to draw up a budget for a recently I had to draw up a budget for a recently I had to draw up a budget for a grant application and I I haven't the grant application and I I haven't the grant application and I I haven't the first clue about how to fill out a first clue about how to fill out a first clue about how to fill out a budget. Um, but I was able to say to to budget. Um, but I was able to say to to budget. Um, but I was able to say to to an LLM, "Look, this is the project. This an LLM, "Look, this is the project. This an LLM, "Look, this is the project. This is what we want to do. he just helped me is what we want to do. he just helped me is what we want to do. he just helped me work out how to speak budget language, work out how to speak budget language, work out how to speak budget language, you know, to fill out this budget sheet. you know, to fill out this budget sheet. you know, to fill out this budget sheet. And it was just incredibly helpful. And And it was just incredibly helpful. And And it was just incredibly helpful. And rather than having to go through um you rather than having to go through um you rather than having to go through um you know, a university service that could know, a university service that could know, a university service that could have taken weeks or months for someone have taken weeks or months for someone have taken weeks or months for someone to help me fill out this budget sheet, I to help me fill out this budget sheet, I to help me fill out this budget sheet, I was able to do it relatively quickly to was able to do it relatively quickly to was able to do it relatively quickly to to a standard that was good enough uh to to a standard that was good enough uh to to a standard that was good enough uh to submit the budget. And that was just an submit the budget. And that was just an submit the budget. And that was just an incredible win. I think where it's incredible win. I think where it's incredible win. I think where it's dangerous in my own line of work and dangerous in my own line of work and dangerous in my own line of work and funnily enough the undergraduate funnily enough the undergraduate funnily enough the undergraduate students that we teach are much more students that we teach are much more students that we teach are much more life to this than anyone else.

life to this than anyone else. life to this than anyone else. >> So they are very wary >> So they are very wary >> So they are very wary >> of AI being used in their studies many >> of AI being used in their studies many >> of AI being used in their studies many of them. Um, I think there's a of them. Um, I think there's a of them. Um, I think there's a sensitivity to the preciousness of human sensitivity to the preciousness of human sensitivity to the preciousness of human contact and human intercourse among the contact and human intercourse among the contact and human intercourse among the students that I don't actually see in students that I don't actually see in students that I don't actually see in sort of society more broadly or or or sort of society more broadly or or or sort of society more broadly or or or coming from from top down in coming from from top down in coming from from top down in institutions like they want to know that institutions like they want to know that institutions like they want to know that their work was marked by a human being. their work was marked by a human being. their work was marked by a human being. And uh the sense that I get is that even And uh the sense that I get is that even And uh the sense that I get is that even if it's not quite as well marked as it if it's not quite as well marked as it if it's not quite as well marked as it would be by a machine, they still value would be by a machine, they still value would be by a machine, they still value a human having read their work. a human having read their work. a human having read their work. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Above the pre getting the precise right >> Above the pre getting the precise right >> Above the pre getting the precise right mark. And I I found that a real mark. And I I found that a real mark. And I I found that a real encouragement and and actually quite a encouragement and and actually quite a encouragement and and actually quite a revelation that the people who are most revelation that the people who are most revelation that the people who are most switched on to the dangers of AI in my switched on to the dangers of AI in my switched on to the dangers of AI in my experience are the undergraduate experience are the undergraduate experience are the undergraduate students that I teach. And I I would students that I teach. And I I would students that I teach. And I I would have thought that they'd be really pro, have thought that they'd be really pro, have thought that they'd be really pro, but I' I've been chasened and I think but I' I've been chasened and I think but I' I've been chasened and I think they realize the dangers of it more than they realize the dangers of it more than they realize the dangers of it more than a lot of other people.

a lot of other people. a lot of other people. >> But that's actually a really I saw maybe >> But that's actually a really I saw maybe >> But that's actually a really I saw maybe I didn't maybe I wasn't hearing the I didn't maybe I wasn't hearing the I didn't maybe I wasn't hearing the right way, but I seen that as a big pro right way, but I seen that as a big pro right way, but I seen that as a big pro that one of the benefits of an AI world that one of the benefits of an AI world that one of the benefits of an AI world where there's infinite information and where there's infinite information and where there's infinite information and that you can just upload everything for that you can just upload everything for that you can just upload everything for it to grade and stuff. People are it to grade and stuff. People are it to grade and stuff. People are actually valuing the human personal actually valuing the human personal actually valuing the human personal connection and human touch. I actually connection and human touch. I actually connection and human touch. I actually I've had people come to my church and I've had people come to my church and I've had people come to my church and say, "Hey, I'm trying to figure out say, "Hey, I'm trying to figure out say, "Hey, I'm trying to figure out religion and Christianity and I I went religion and Christianity and I I went religion and Christianity and I I went to AI and it told me everything, but now to AI and it told me everything, but now to AI and it told me everything, but now I don't I still don't know what there's I don't I still don't know what there's I don't I still don't know what there's just too much information." So, I just too much information." So, I just too much information." So, I actually think authority and how to actually think authority and how to actually think authority and how to actually get through the information actually get through the information actually get through the information with the personal connection is it might with the personal connection is it might with the personal connection is it might be it could be in a very positive way a be it could be in a very positive way a be it could be in a very positive way a return to the human connection and return to the human connection and return to the human connection and relationship that you're seeing already relationship that you're seeing already relationship that you're seeing already in your students, right? Right. I mean, in your students, right? Right. I mean, in your students, right? Right. I mean, I I think that's a ironically that's a I I think that's a ironically that's a I I think that's a ironically that's a positive of how good these models and positive of how good these models and positive of how good these models and and equations are. and equations are. and equations are. >> I think you're absolutely right. One >> I think you're absolutely right. One >> I think you're absolutely right. One thing that it's showing us is that we thing that it's showing us is that we thing that it's showing us is that we value other people engaging with us and value other people engaging with us and value other people engaging with us and the fact that it's more possible now the fact that it's more possible now the fact that it's more possible now than before to have very few people than before to have very few people than before to have very few people engaging with us in the course of an engaging with us in the course of an engaging with us in the course of an average workday. That's right. is average workday. That's right. is average workday. That's right. is exposing the fact that no, we do exposing the fact that no, we do exposing the fact that no, we do actually value this and yes it's messy actually value this and yes it's messy actually value this and yes it's messy and yes it brings friction and you know and yes it brings friction and you know and yes it brings friction and you know the mark that I get for my essay might the mark that I get for my essay might the mark that I get for my essay might not be you know quite not be you know quite not be you know quite bestinass bestinass bestinass you know sort of benchmarked if a you know sort of benchmarked if a you know sort of benchmarked if a person's done it they might have done it person's done it they might have done it person's done it they might have done it last thing at night or something but I last thing at night or something but I last thing at night or something but I still want that I still want to be

still want that I still want to be still want that I still want to be connecting through my work and I think connecting through my work and I think connecting through my work and I think that is incredibly healthy and I I guess that is incredibly healthy and I I guess that is incredibly healthy and I I guess that's one thing then that AI is showing that's one thing then that AI is showing that's one thing then that AI is showing us about ourselves us about ourselves us about ourselves um that we want human relationships even um that we want human relationships even um that we want human relationships even if they're messy and nonoptimized. if they're messy and nonoptimized. if they're messy and nonoptimized. What what what other things do you think What what what other things do you think What what what other things do you think AI might be revealing to us perhaps in AI might be revealing to us perhaps in AI might be revealing to us perhaps in terms of what we expect out of human terms of what we expect out of human terms of what we expect out of human relationships or um the ways in which it relationships or um the ways in which it relationships or um the ways in which it might be changing our expectations of might be changing our expectations of might be changing our expectations of relationships? Oh, well I was going to relationships? Oh, well I was going to relationships? Oh, well I was going to say it starts with I think as we project say it starts with I think as we project say it starts with I think as we project if we go back to the that Harvard if we go back to the that Harvard if we go back to the that Harvard business review that we were coming to business review that we were coming to business review that we were coming to it for relationship and therapy and and it for relationship and therapy and and it for relationship and therapy and and purpose and meaning these are all purpose and meaning these are all purpose and meaning these are all conversations that we should be having conversations that we should be having conversations that we should be having with you know um people but you can only with you know um people but you can only with you know um people but you can only get to that truth if if of what it means get to that truth if if of what it means get to that truth if if of what it means to be human if you get down to like what to be human if you get down to like what to be human if you get down to like what we're made for. And so I think it's we're made for. And so I think it's we're made for. And so I think it's revealing our l our the the revealing our l our the the revealing our l our the the disassociation and the problem in our disassociation and the problem in our disassociation and the problem in our current culture that we don't know what current culture that we don't know what current culture that we don't know what it means to be a person as we project it means to be a person as we project it means to be a person as we project personhood onto personhood onto personhood onto equations. I mean it reveals our need equations. I mean it reveals our need equations. I mean it reveals our need for personhood, our need for for personhood, our need for for personhood, our need for relationship. And I actually think the relationship. And I actually think the relationship. And I actually think the Christian anthropology of a mu day that Christian anthropology of a mu day that Christian anthropology of a mu day that we're made in God's image. And you know we're made in God's image. And you know we're made in God's image. And you know that's not um you're not mainly a that's not um you're not mainly a that's not um you're not mainly a behavior which is you can act like a behavior which is you can act like a behavior which is you can act like a duck, you can look like a duck, you can

duck, you can look like a duck, you can duck, you can look like a duck, you can act like a human, you can look like a act like a human, you can look like a act like a human, you can look like a human, doesn't mean you're actually human, doesn't mean you're actually human, doesn't mean you're actually human. human. human. um being made in God's image is a um being made in God's image is a um being made in God's image is a calling and a status that's being calling and a status that's being calling and a status that's being conferred on and bestowed on you conferred on and bestowed on you conferred on and bestowed on you regardless of if you're um you know regardless of if you're um you know regardless of if you're um you know cognizant conscious because there's all cognizant conscious because there's all cognizant conscious because there's all kinds of questions about euthanasia and kinds of questions about euthanasia and kinds of questions about euthanasia and about you know assisted su suicide slash about you know assisted su suicide slash about you know assisted su suicide slash uh AI is actually I think helping us but uh AI is actually I think helping us but uh AI is actually I think helping us but it's also hurting us at the same time it's also hurting us at the same time it's also hurting us at the same time because it's just re revealing that we because it's just re revealing that we because it's just re revealing that we just don't know what it means to be just don't know what it means to be just don't know what it means to be human and I think the Christian story human and I think the Christian story human and I think the Christian story comes in with hopefully some good comes in with hopefully some good comes in with hopefully some good answers there. But is that are you answers there. But is that are you answers there. But is that are you seeing that or what about what do you seeing that or what about what do you seeing that or what about what do you think? think? think? >> I think you're absolutely right. It it's >> I think you're absolutely right. It it's >> I think you're absolutely right. It it's showing us what we as modern perhaps showing us what we as modern perhaps showing us what we as modern perhaps western human beings think a person is. western human beings think a person is. western human beings think a person is. Um [clears throat] and that there are Um [clears throat] and that there are Um [clears throat] and that there are these four qualities they think of them these four qualities they think of them these four qualities they think of them as the sassy qualities. SACI sentience, as the sassy qualities. SACI sentience, as the sassy qualities. SACI sentience, agency, consciousness and intelligence. agency, consciousness and intelligence. agency, consciousness and intelligence. That's what we think a human being is. That's what we think a human being is. That's what we think a human being is. >> Wait, can you say it again? This is >> Wait, can you say it again? This is >> Wait, can you say it again? This is good. sentience, agency, consciousness, good. sentience, agency, consciousness, good. sentience, agency, consciousness, intelligence.

intelligence. intelligence. And And And we've been operating for a long time on we've been operating for a long time on we've been operating for a long time on the the assumption that that's what a the the assumption that that's what a the the assumption that that's what a human being is. You know, we are r this human being is. You know, we are r this human being is. You know, we are r this the rational animal. You know, we we are the rational animal. You know, we we are the rational animal. You know, we we are the language using animal. And for a the language using animal. And for a the language using animal. And for a while, we could get away with that while, we could get away with that while, we could get away with that because there were that wasn't because there were that wasn't because there were that wasn't particularly stress tested, you know, particularly stress tested, you know, particularly stress tested, you know, over the the course of the modern age. over the the course of the modern age. over the the course of the modern age. But what what AI is coming along and But what what AI is coming along and But what what AI is coming along and doing now is massively stress testing doing now is massively stress testing doing now is massively stress testing that anthropology saying, "Okay, well, that anthropology saying, "Okay, well, that anthropology saying, "Okay, well, you think you're intelligence. How about you think you're intelligence. How about you think you're intelligence. How about this?" this?" this?" >> This algorithm is intelligent by your >> This algorithm is intelligent by your >> This algorithm is intelligent by your definition. This algorithm bears all the definition. This algorithm bears all the definition. This algorithm bears all the signs of consciousness according to the signs of consciousness according to the signs of consciousness according to the way that you've defined it. way that you've defined it. way that you've defined it. >> This algorithm has agency. You know, AI >> This algorithm has agency. You know, AI >> This algorithm has agency. You know, AI agents are the all the rage at the agents are the all the rage at the agents are the all the rage at the moment, aren't they? By your definition. moment, aren't they? By your definition. moment, aren't they? By your definition. So, you sure that's what a human being So, you sure that's what a human being So, you sure that's what a human being is? Because if that's your definition, is? Because if that's your definition, is? Because if that's your definition, AI is coming for you, AI is coming for you, AI is coming for you, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And AI has ticks all those boxes and it >> And AI has ticks all those boxes and it >> And AI has ticks all those boxes and it is actually better at ticking them than is actually better at ticking them than is actually better at ticking them than you are. So, one thing that I see at the you are. So, one thing that I see at the you are. So, one thing that I see at the moment is it what an incredible moment moment is it what an incredible moment moment is it what an incredible moment for Christians to be able to say there's for Christians to be able to say there's for Christians to be able to say there's a way of thinking about human beings a way of thinking about human beings a way of thinking about human beings that was never that.

that was never that. that was never that. >> We were never our sassy qualities. Thank >> We were never our sassy qualities. Thank >> We were never our sassy qualities. Thank goodness, you know, and it's exactly goodness, you know, and it's exactly goodness, you know, and it's exactly what you're saying. um you know it's what you're saying. um you know it's what you're saying. um you know it's it's it's it's a a status that is it's it's it's a a status that is it's it's it's a a status that is conferred upon us regardless of our conferred upon us regardless of our conferred upon us regardless of our intelligence or um you know the the the intelligence or um you know the the the intelligence or um you know the the the level that we're able to demonstrate our level that we're able to demonstrate our level that we're able to demonstrate our consciousness at and so forth. consciousness at and so forth. consciousness at and so forth. >> Um and so >> Um and so >> Um and so >> so Christians are almost providing a >> so Christians are almost providing a >> so Christians are almost providing a sanctuary you know for people who are sanctuary you know for people who are sanctuary you know for people who are having the the foundations of their having the the foundations of their having the the foundations of their >> view of human beings blown up like AI is >> view of human beings blown up like AI is >> view of human beings blown up like AI is more human than you by your definition. more human than you by your definition. more human than you by your definition. It's coming for you. It's coming for It's coming for you. It's coming for It's coming for you. It's coming for your job. It's coming for your humanity. your job. It's coming for your humanity. your job. It's coming for your humanity. Now, there's nowhere to hide, is there? Now, there's nowhere to hide, is there? Now, there's nowhere to hide, is there? And Christians are And Christians are And Christians are >> are sort of saying there's a sanctuary >> are sort of saying there's a sanctuary >> are sort of saying there's a sanctuary here. You You are actually special here. You You are actually special here. You You are actually special >> in a way that AI isn't. It's it's great >> in a way that AI isn't. It's it's great >> in a way that AI isn't. It's it's great and it's a tool and it's powerful, but and it's a tool and it's powerful, but and it's a tool and it's powerful, but it's not like you. Come and see, you it's not like you. Come and see, you it's not like you. Come and see, you know, what the Bible says about what know, what the Bible says about what know, what the Bible says about what makes us human. And that's AI is not makes us human. And that's AI is not makes us human. And that's AI is not coming for that. It is not coming for coming for that. It is not coming for coming for that. It is not coming for the image of God.

the image of God. the image of God. >> Um so come and take shelter with us. >> Um so come and take shelter with us. >> Um so come and take shelter with us. >> Yeah. I think listening to you Chris >> Yeah. I think listening to you Chris >> Yeah. I think listening to you Chris there's a we've defined to be human or there's a we've defined to be human or there's a we've defined to be human or defined by based on behaving our defined by based on behaving our defined by based on behaving our behavior and then when you have behavior and then when you have behavior and then when you have something that can behave better than something that can behave better than something that can behave better than you literally because it knows more and you literally because it knows more and you literally because it knows more and stuff like that versus something that's stuff like that versus something that's stuff like that versus something that's actually um acting like there's there's actually um acting like there's there's actually um acting like there's there's a deliberate agency intentionality a deliberate agency intentionality a deliberate agency intentionality >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> um bestowed quality of identity and it >> um bestowed quality of identity and it >> um bestowed quality of identity and it comes down so I this comes down so I this comes down so I this I think I wrote a paper a couple months I think I wrote a paper a couple months I think I wrote a paper a couple months ago about identity as an internal like ago about identity as an internal like ago about identity as an internal like who I decide who I am, which is actually who I decide who I am, which is actually who I decide who I am, which is actually how modern identity is formed right now. how modern identity is formed right now. how modern identity is formed right now. I look inside inside myself and I say, I look inside inside myself and I say, I look inside inside myself and I say, "Well, who am I? And I I'm this. I I'm a "Well, who am I? And I I'm this. I I'm a "Well, who am I? And I I'm this. I I'm a I'm a doctor who has this sexual um I'm a doctor who has this sexual um I'm a doctor who has this sexual um persuasion and this view of self." persuasion and this view of self." persuasion and this view of self." when a when an algorithm can actually do when a when an algorithm can actually do when a when an algorithm can actually do that better than you. Oh, maybe maybe that better than you. Oh, maybe maybe that better than you. Oh, maybe maybe identity is first bestowed on like what identity is first bestowed on like what identity is first bestowed on like what is said of you in your nature. And the is said of you in your nature. And the is said of you in your nature. And the Christian idea of imod says like yeah we Christian idea of imod says like yeah we Christian idea of imod says like yeah we have a god of the universe who does that have a god of the universe who does that have a god of the universe who does that first. And the good news is I love what first. And the good news is I love what first. And the good news is I love what you put it that way is AI can't ever you put it that way is AI can't ever you put it that way is AI can't ever take that job from you. It it can't it take that job from you. It it can't it take that job from you. It it can't it because it's not something that can because it's not something that can because it's not something that can actually be unalived in your personhood actually be unalived in your personhood actually be unalived in your personhood by because it's something something else by because it's something something else by because it's something something else could do a better job at it. Nothing can could do a better job at it. Nothing can could do a better job at it. Nothing can do a better job being human than being do a better job being human than being do a better job being human than being human. I love that. That's really human. I love that. That's really human. I love that. That's really helpful.

helpful. helpful. >> Absolutely. And and it all hangs, >> Absolutely. And and it all hangs, >> Absolutely. And and it all hangs, doesn't it, on the character of God. doesn't it, on the character of God. doesn't it, on the character of God. Like if the God who told us who we are Like if the God who told us who we are Like if the God who told us who we are was, you know, twisted or crooked or or was, you know, twisted or crooked or or was, you know, twisted or crooked or or evil, that would be a terrible situation evil, that would be a terrible situation evil, that would be a terrible situation to be in. You know, that that would be a to be in. You know, that that would be a to be in. You know, that that would be a prison without an escape. And that's prison without an escape. And that's prison without an escape. And that's sort of the position that modern society sort of the position that modern society sort of the position that modern society finds itself in that if you don't decide finds itself in that if you don't decide finds itself in that if you don't decide who you are, you know, in the depth of who you are, you know, in the depth of who you are, you know, in the depth of your own bosom, then society tells you your own bosom, then society tells you your own bosom, then society tells you who you are. And good luck. who you are. And good luck. who you are. And good luck. If if you're letting this society, you If if you're letting this society, you If if you're letting this society, you know, with its online culture and it's know, with its online culture and it's know, with its online culture and it's it fickle sort of building people up to it fickle sort of building people up to it fickle sort of building people up to knock them down, if you want to get your knock them down, if you want to get your knock them down, if you want to get your identity from there, then, you know, identity from there, then, you know, identity from there, then, you know, good luck to you. Um, but the the one good luck to you. Um, but the the one good luck to you. Um, but the the one person who is committed to you enough to person who is committed to you enough to person who is committed to you enough to die for you to put lay down his own life die for you to put lay down his own life die for you to put lay down his own life so that you can live. If he tells you so that you can live. If he tells you so that you can live. If he tells you who you are, then you're going to want who you are, then you're going to want who you are, then you're going to want to listen cuz that's a person who's put to listen cuz that's a person who's put to listen cuz that's a person who's put their money where their mouth is, isn't their money where their mouth is, isn't their money where their mouth is, isn't it? You know, they're not just looking it? You know, they're not just looking it? You know, they're not just looking to cancel you. They've demonstrated a to cancel you. They've demonstrated a to cancel you. They've demonstrated a commitment to you, you know. So, you're commitment to you, you know. So, you're commitment to you, you know. So, you're going to want to listen to what that going to want to listen to what that going to want to listen to what that person says when when they say it. The person says when when they say it. The person says when when they say it. The pastor had on me, you could argue so pastor had on me, you could argue so pastor had on me, you could argue so much of our identity, uh, almost every much of our identity, uh, almost every much of our identity, uh, almost every religion, almost every non-religion religion, almost every non-religion religion, almost every non-religion basically says you are based on what you basically says you are based on what you basically says you are based on what you do. You are based on your performance.

do. You are based on your performance. do. You are based on your performance. If you and you know I think my dad one If you and you know I think my dad one If you and you know I think my dad one time put it he goes you I obey and time put it he goes you I obey and time put it he goes you I obey and therefore I'm accepted. That's that is a therefore I'm accepted. That's that is a therefore I'm accepted. That's that is a performance-based identity. And we've performance-based identity. And we've performance-based identity. And we've always had that problem. I think AI's always had that problem. I think AI's always had that problem. I think AI's just put it on dowsted gasoline onto just put it on dowsted gasoline onto just put it on dowsted gasoline onto this and lit it on fire because guess this and lit it on fire because guess this and lit it on fire because guess what? We have now an an equation that what? We have now an an equation that what? We have now an an equation that can perform outperform everyone from can perform outperform everyone from can perform outperform everyone from from a knowledge point of view. But the from a knowledge point of view. But the from a knowledge point of view. But the the beauty of the Christian gospel is the beauty of the Christian gospel is the beauty of the Christian gospel is it's not I obey, therefore I'm accepted. it's not I obey, therefore I'm accepted. it's not I obey, therefore I'm accepted. You're already accepted. You're already You're already accepted. You're already You're already accepted. You're already in. Your identity is assured. Therefore, in. Your identity is assured. Therefore, in. Your identity is assured. Therefore, out of gratitude now I do. It's it's um out of gratitude now I do. It's it's um out of gratitude now I do. It's it's um you know beneath all the performances you know beneath all the performances you know beneath all the performances in Christ, you know, he holds all things in Christ, you know, he holds all things in Christ, you know, he holds all things together, including you, you already together, including you, you already together, including you, you already it's already done. So, it's just there's it's already done. So, it's just there's it's already done. So, it's just there's something I think that actually is a something I think that actually is a something I think that actually is a benequence of of the world that we're in benequence of of the world that we're in benequence of of the world that we're in is that we're asking what does it mean is that we're asking what does it mean is that we're asking what does it mean to be human more than ever? And I think to be human more than ever? And I think to be human more than ever? And I think there's a real opportunity for the there's a real opportunity for the there's a real opportunity for the Christian faith to thrive in that space. Christian faith to thrive in that space. Christian faith to thrive in that space. >> I completely agree. It it's always been >> I completely agree. It it's always been >> I completely agree. It it's always been an issue in modernity, but we've gotten an issue in modernity, but we've gotten an issue in modernity, but we've gotten away with it. away with it. away with it. >> I wanted to say that we haven't this >> I wanted to say that we haven't this >> I wanted to say that we haven't this isn't any new this isn't new. It's just isn't any new this isn't new. It's just isn't any new this isn't new. It's just now we have this technology that's now we have this technology that's now we have this technology that's forcing us again to look like is what forcing us again to look like is what forcing us again to look like is what does it mean to be us?

does it mean to be us? does it mean to be us? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> absolutely. And what what a moment to be >> absolutely. And what what a moment to be >> absolutely. And what what a moment to be a Christian to have a robust response to a Christian to have a robust response to a Christian to have a robust response to that question that AI is not coming for. that question that AI is not coming for. that question that AI is not coming for. Um, praise God for that. Um, praise God for that. Um, praise God for that. >> Praise God. He can't come for your >> Praise God. He can't come for your >> Praise God. He can't come for your identity. Yeah. identity. Yeah. identity. Yeah. >> Yes. Absolutely. Um, I I want to dig a >> Yes. Absolutely. Um, I I want to dig a >> Yes. Absolutely. Um, I I want to dig a little deeper into what AI is exposing little deeper into what AI is exposing little deeper into what AI is exposing about ourselves and who we are. You about ourselves and who we are. You about ourselves and who we are. You you've done a lot of work on on this you've done a lot of work on on this you've done a lot of work on on this idea of cultural narratives, you know, idea of cultural narratives, you know, idea of cultural narratives, you know, these big stories that shape how we see these big stories that shape how we see these big stories that shape how we see ourselves in our world at the moment. ourselves in our world at the moment. ourselves in our world at the moment. And and I think you've you've identified And and I think you've you've identified And and I think you've you've identified um if if I'm getting this right, four of um if if I'm getting this right, four of um if if I'm getting this right, four of them. We've got freedom, identity, we've them. We've got freedom, identity, we've them. We've got freedom, identity, we've got happiness and power. um these great got happiness and power. um these great got happiness and power. um these great stories that sort of shape the modern stories that sort of shape the modern stories that sort of shape the modern world in its sense of itself. world in its sense of itself. world in its sense of itself. What do you think AI is doing to those What do you think AI is doing to those What do you think AI is doing to those big cultural narratives of our age? I is big cultural narratives of our age? I is big cultural narratives of our age? I is it deepening them? Is it challenging it deepening them? Is it challenging it deepening them? Is it challenging them? Is it giving us different ones? Is them? Is it giving us different ones? Is them? Is it giving us different ones? Is it fulfilling them? How how is the it fulfilling them? How how is the it fulfilling them? How how is the cultural narrative discourse shifting cultural narrative discourse shifting cultural narrative discourse shifting with AI?

with AI? with AI? >> Yeah, I mean >> Yeah, I mean >> Yeah, I mean this is a great great question. I think this is a great great question. I think this is a great great question. I think I think the crisis the crisis of of I think the crisis the crisis of of I think the crisis the crisis of of modern identity has been again it's modern identity has been again it's modern identity has been again it's internally it's fragile it's incoherent internally it's fragile it's incoherent internally it's fragile it's incoherent there's these um our our cultural there's these um our our cultural there's these um our our cultural stories stories stories aren't changing with AI I think they're aren't changing with AI I think they're aren't changing with AI I think they're just accelerating them and showing just accelerating them and showing just accelerating them and showing uh both how the good things are actually uh both how the good things are actually uh both how the good things are actually getting in some ways better because getting in some ways better because getting in some ways better because we're able to um if if freedom is the we're able to um if if freedom is the we're able to um if if freedom is the idea of of autonomy without anybody idea of of autonomy without anybody idea of of autonomy without anybody uh getting to say on what I want to do. uh getting to say on what I want to do. uh getting to say on what I want to do. AI is helping that. But it's also AI is helping that. But it's also AI is helping that. But it's also revealing that the bad part of the revealing that the bad part of the revealing that the bad part of the freedom story, which is if you want full freedom story, which is if you want full freedom story, which is if you want full autonomy, if that's what you really autonomy, if that's what you really autonomy, if that's what you really want, you can have it. But then you want, you can have it. But then you want, you can have it. But then you don't you can't have love. You can't don't you can't have love. You can't don't you can't have love. You can't have because love by definition is have because love by definition is have because love by definition is commitment. You can't have um well, at commitment. You can't have um well, at commitment. You can't have um well, at the end of the day um to to really be the end of the day um to to really be the end of the day um to to really be part of anything, you have to bind part of anything, you have to bind part of anything, you have to bind yourself to it. to be a good baseball yourself to it. to be a good baseball yourself to it. to be a good baseball player, to be a good musician, you have player, to be a good musician, you have player, to be a good musician, you have to restrict yourself to to doing things.

to restrict yourself to to doing things. to restrict yourself to to doing things. So, you can't have full autonomy. So, So, you can't have full autonomy. So, So, you can't have full autonomy. So, AI, you can sound like somebody who is a AI, you can sound like somebody who is a AI, you can sound like somebody who is a musician with AI, but you're not musician with AI, but you're not musician with AI, but you're not actually one. And so, I I it's just actually one. And so, I I it's just actually one. And so, I I it's just showing showing showing where the fractures and the cracks were where the fractures and the cracks were where the fractures and the cracks were already there. My dad used to use an already there. My dad used to use an already there. My dad used to use an example of marriage is like a truck example of marriage is like a truck example of marriage is like a truck rolling over a a bridge. It doesn't, the rolling over a a bridge. It doesn't, the rolling over a a bridge. It doesn't, the truck doesn't create the um cracks that truck doesn't create the um cracks that truck doesn't create the um cracks that are in the bridge infrastructure. It are in the bridge infrastructure. It are in the bridge infrastructure. It just the weight of it reveals the cracks just the weight of it reveals the cracks just the weight of it reveals the cracks that were already there cuz then all of that were already there cuz then all of that were already there cuz then all of a sudden the cracks, oh my gosh, there's a sudden the cracks, oh my gosh, there's a sudden the cracks, oh my gosh, there's all these cracks in the in the bridge. all these cracks in the in the bridge. all these cracks in the in the bridge. No, no, it's just it's the weight that No, no, it's just it's the weight that No, no, it's just it's the weight that showed what was already there. AI is showed what was already there. AI is showed what was already there. AI is like a Mac truck rolling through our the like a Mac truck rolling through our the like a Mac truck rolling through our the the bridge of our identity and our the bridge of our identity and our the bridge of our identity and our cultural stories, just revealing what cultural stories, just revealing what cultural stories, just revealing what was already there. So that's the it's was already there. So that's the it's was already there. So that's the it's not bad news. I think it's good news not bad news. I think it's good news not bad news. I think it's good news because you can't change anything unless because you can't change anything unless because you can't change anything unless you actually can see it. Every counselor you actually can see it. Every counselor you actually can see it. Every counselor will tell you that and there's no way to will tell you that and there's no way to will tell you that and there's no way to uh and address an a pro address a uh and address an a pro address a uh and address an a pro address a problem unless you can see the problem. problem unless you can see the problem. problem unless you can see the problem. So I think that's the good news of it. So I think that's the good news of it. So I think that's the good news of it. >> Absolutely. You you remind me of a house >> Absolutely. You you remind me of a house >> Absolutely. You you remind me of a house we almost bought uh in Melbourne and we we almost bought uh in Melbourne and we we almost bought uh in Melbourne and we that there's a termite issue in that there's a termite issue in that there's a termite issue in Melbourne. I don't know if it's the same Melbourne. I don't know if it's the same Melbourne. I don't know if it's the same in New York City but a lot lot of houses in New York City but a lot lot of houses in New York City but a lot lot of houses have um sort of wood as part of their have um sort of wood as part of their have um sort of wood as part of their foundations and termites just come and foundations and termites just come and foundations and termites just come and demolish it. We we had a look at this demolish it. We we had a look at this demolish it. We we had a look at this house and we got a building inspection house and we got a building inspection house and we got a building inspection and the the guy sort of crawled under and the the guy sort of crawled under and the the guy sort of crawled under the house and had a look and he came out the house and had a look and he came out the house and had a look and he came out and he just laughed at us and he said, and he just laughed at us and he said, and he just laughed at us and he said, "You don't want to go anywhere near this "You don't want to go anywhere near this "You don't want to go anywhere near this house. The termites have been all over house. The termites have been all over house. The termites have been all over it." Um, and we, you know, who would it." Um, and we, you know, who would it." Um, and we, you know, who would have known unless we paid for this

have known unless we paid for this have known unless we paid for this building inspection to to to happen. And building inspection to to to happen. And building inspection to to to happen. And it it it strikes me as a similar sort of it it it strikes me as a similar sort of it it it strikes me as a similar sort of thing like the the termites are there. thing like the the termites are there. thing like the the termites are there. They've been eating our anthropology, so They've been eating our anthropology, so They've been eating our anthropology, so to speak. You know, this is getting to speak. You know, this is getting to speak. You know, this is getting getting out of hand, this metaphor, getting out of hand, this metaphor, getting out of hand, this metaphor, isn't it? Basically, um, an AI has just isn't it? Basically, um, an AI has just isn't it? Basically, um, an AI has just crawled under the house and shown us, crawled under the house and shown us, crawled under the house and shown us, you know, what has been happening all you know, what has been happening all you know, what has been happening all along. along. along. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> that's right. >> that's right. >> that's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> I I I want to turn to very specifically >> I I I want to turn to very specifically >> I I I want to turn to very specifically to to the Bible now. It's sort of been to to the Bible now. It's sort of been to to the Bible now. It's sort of been hovering around our conversation, but I hovering around our conversation, but I hovering around our conversation, but I I I want to I I want to I I want to I want to try and help people who are I want to try and help people who are I want to try and help people who are Christians and they think, I just don't Christians and they think, I just don't Christians and they think, I just don't know what to think about AI. I I want to know what to think about AI. I I want to know what to think about AI. I I want to build a biblical view of this. I don't build a biblical view of this. I don't build a biblical view of this. I don't want to either just sort of lurch to want to either just sort of lurch to want to either just sort of lurch to being an a massive AI enthusiast or or being an a massive AI enthusiast or or being an a massive AI enthusiast or or an AI doomer. I I want to be careful and an AI doomer. I I want to be careful and an AI doomer. I I want to be careful and build this view of AI up from the ground build this view of AI up from the ground build this view of AI up from the ground biblically. Where should I start? And biblically. Where should I start? And biblically. Where should I start? And so, what Bible passages have you found so, what Bible passages have you found so, what Bible passages have you found particularly helpful in thinking about particularly helpful in thinking about particularly helpful in thinking about AI? And how have they helped you to to AI? And how have they helped you to to AI? And how have they helped you to to find that that biblical posture in a in find that that biblical posture in a in find that that biblical posture in a in our current cultural moment?

our current cultural moment? our current cultural moment? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think I've already referenced a Mago think I've already referenced a Mago think I've already referenced a Mago day, so Genesis 1, Genesis 2. Um the you day, so Genesis 1, Genesis 2. Um the you day, so Genesis 1, Genesis 2. Um the you know, I think that's really really know, I think that's really really know, I think that's really really important for people. No, but e even you important for people. No, but e even you important for people. No, but e even you know, Romans I I think 8, you know, know, Romans I I think 8, you know, know, Romans I I think 8, you know, there's now no condemnation for those. there's now no condemnation for those. there's now no condemnation for those. There's now no condemnation. the idea There's now no condemnation. the idea There's now no condemnation. the idea that you are what you are, not based on that you are what you are, not based on that you are what you are, not based on what you do, but what we've already what you do, but what we've already what you do, but what we've already referenced that, but there's been a referenced that, but there's been a referenced that, but there's been a passage I've been thinking about passage I've been thinking about passage I've been thinking about recently that's fun about this. And I recently that's fun about this. And I recently that's fun about this. And I think it's 1 Corinthians 13:1. Um, I think it's 1 Corinthians 13:1. Um, I think it's 1 Corinthians 13:1. Um, I think it's if I speak in the tongues of think it's if I speak in the tongues of think it's if I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, I'm men and angels, but have not love, I'm men and angels, but have not love, I'm I'm a noisy gong and reclaiming symbol. I'm a noisy gong and reclaiming symbol. I'm a noisy gong and reclaiming symbol. And I I love I've been thinking about And I I love I've been thinking about And I I love I've been thinking about this in the context of AI that like AI this in the context of AI that like AI this in the context of AI that like AI can produce, you know, eloquent language can produce, you know, eloquent language can produce, you know, eloquent language and and and and and and and and and beauty and and um sophistication and and beauty and and um sophistication and and beauty and and um sophistication and and stuff like that. But I think the passage stuff like that. But I think the passage stuff like that. But I think the passage that passage cuts at the heart because that passage cuts at the heart because that passage cuts at the heart because the issue isn't the quality of our the issue isn't the quality of our the issue isn't the quality of our output. it, you know, music there output. it, you know, music there output. it, you know, music there between a clanging gong and a cl sorry, between a clanging gong and a cl sorry, between a clanging gong and a cl sorry, a a noisy gong or a clanging symbol and a a noisy gong or a clanging symbol and a a noisy gong or a clanging symbol and music music music is um it's not the noise and stuff like is um it's not the noise and stuff like is um it's not the noise and stuff like that. It's not the output. It's it's that. It's not the output. It's it's that. It's not the output. It's it's like what actually produces it. So like what actually produces it. So like what actually produces it. So I just think and the core what what what I just think and the core what what what I just think and the core what what what do you need? You need love. And love is do you need? You need love. And love is do you need? You need love. And love is something that's not an equation. And something that's not an equation. And something that's not an equation. And love is is a commitment that takes love is is a commitment that takes love is is a commitment that takes personhood and agency and identity and personhood and agency and identity and personhood and agency and identity and humanity to do it. Um so I think I think

humanity to do it. Um so I think I think humanity to do it. Um so I think I think there's something about if I have not there's something about if I have not there's something about if I have not love love love that gets at the essence of that gets at the essence of that gets at the essence of again I think what's very encouraging again I think what's very encouraging again I think what's very encouraging about it is I'm your goal isn't to be about it is I'm your goal isn't to be about it is I'm your goal isn't to be the smartest or the most knowledgeable. the smartest or the most knowledgeable. the smartest or the most knowledgeable. It's have you loved today? Are you It's have you loved today? Are you It's have you loved today? Are you loving other people? Are you loving God? loving other people? Are you loving God? loving other people? Are you loving God? it the old reformed view that life is it the old reformed view that life is it the old reformed view that life is about is knowledge of God and knowledge about is knowledge of God and knowledge about is knowledge of God and knowledge of yourself, knowing more of who he is of yourself, knowing more of who he is of yourself, knowing more of who he is and knowing more about yourself. There's and knowing more about yourself. There's and knowing more about yourself. There's a love conversation here. And I know a love conversation here. And I know a love conversation here. And I know that what word love is thrown around a that what word love is thrown around a that what word love is thrown around a lot, but it at the very essence of it is lot, but it at the very essence of it is lot, but it at the very essence of it is this um this um this um commitment that I think Paul is trying commitment that I think Paul is trying commitment that I think Paul is trying to get at that that because he's to get at that that because he's to get at that that because he's comparing output of comparing output of comparing output of versus actually the essence of yourself versus actually the essence of yourself versus actually the essence of yourself that it doesn't matter what gifts that that it doesn't matter what gifts that that it doesn't matter what gifts that you have, right? the context is is you have, right? the context is is you have, right? the context is is gifts, uh, tongues of men and angels gifts, uh, tongues of men and angels gifts, uh, tongues of men and angels because that none of that matters if you because that none of that matters if you because that none of that matters if you don't if you don't have the love aspect. don't if you don't have the love aspect. don't if you don't have the love aspect. And I thought that was really helpful And I thought that was really helpful And I thought that was really helpful when it comes to AI. But what what how when it comes to AI. But what what how when it comes to AI. But what what how about you or what do you think about about you or what do you think about about you or what do you think about that?

that? that? >> No, look, I um I I'd just love to push >> No, look, I um I I'd just love to push >> No, look, I um I I'd just love to push it a little bit more into 1 Corinthians it a little bit more into 1 Corinthians it a little bit more into 1 Corinthians 13 because you've opened such a a 13 because you've opened such a a 13 because you've opened such a a treasure trove there. I'm I'm not treasure trove there. I'm I'm not treasure trove there. I'm I'm not avoiding your question. I just want to avoiding your question. I just want to avoiding your question. I just want to sit sit with one Corinthians 13 for a sit sit with one Corinthians 13 for a sit sit with one Corinthians 13 for a bit because I think what you've just bit because I think what you've just bit because I think what you've just said is so incredibly powerful and said is so incredibly powerful and said is so incredibly powerful and helpful and I'd never seen that verse in helpful and I'd never seen that verse in helpful and I'd never seen that verse in that context. So um the danger is you that context. So um the danger is you that context. So um the danger is you become um uh a a clanging symbol um and become um uh a a clanging symbol um and become um uh a a clanging symbol um and you don't have love and it so in an age you don't have love and it so in an age you don't have love and it so in an age where you know give it five give it 10 where you know give it five give it 10 where you know give it five give it 10 years it's very likely that AI is going years it's very likely that AI is going years it's very likely that AI is going to be able to produce quote unquote to be able to produce quote unquote to be able to produce quote unquote better Christian content yeah better Christian content yeah better Christian content yeah >> than you or me than anyone like it can >> than you or me than anyone like it can >> than you or me than anyone like it can write a killer sermon in a way that we write a killer sermon in a way that we write a killer sermon in a way that we would struggle to do. would struggle to do. would struggle to do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Likely. >> Likely. >> Likely. >> Yeah. What how then should we be >> Yeah. What how then should we be >> Yeah. What how then should we be thinking of church? What we're doing at thinking of church? What we're doing at thinking of church? What we're doing at church? What happens on a Sunday? And church? What happens on a Sunday? And church? What happens on a Sunday? And how should we be thinking of our own how should we be thinking of our own how should we be thinking of our own Christian lives in the light of one Christian lives in the light of one Christian lives in the light of one Corinthians 13? In other words, can we Corinthians 13? In other words, can we Corinthians 13? In other words, can we take that verse and shape it into a take that verse and shape it into a take that verse and shape it into a philosophy of life for Christians in the philosophy of life for Christians in the philosophy of life for Christians in the age of AI and a philosophy of ministry?

age of AI and a philosophy of ministry? age of AI and a philosophy of ministry? >> Yeah. I mean I mean I've I've actually >> Yeah. I mean I mean I've I've actually >> Yeah. I mean I mean I've I've actually had this conversation multiple times had this conversation multiple times had this conversation multiple times like I I do not I I feel very like I I do not I I feel very like I I do not I I feel very comfortable say going on record and comfortable say going on record and comfortable say going on record and saying I do not use AI to write my saying I do not use AI to write my saying I do not use AI to write my sermons because I was alluding to this sermons because I was alluding to this sermons because I was alluding to this in the Anna uh situation when we first in the Anna uh situation when we first in the Anna uh situation when we first started our podcast. started our podcast. started our podcast. You know AI can give you a ton of can You know AI can give you a ton of can You know AI can give you a ton of can give you the perfect sermon but the the give you the perfect sermon but the the give you the perfect sermon but the the the problem the human heart has is not the problem the human heart has is not the problem the human heart has is not content. If you go back to Genesis 3, content. If you go back to Genesis 3, content. If you go back to Genesis 3, what's you had perfect I bet you Adam what's you had perfect I bet you Adam what's you had perfect I bet you Adam and Eve had perfect information. and Eve had perfect information. and Eve had perfect information. But that wasn't the problem, right? But that wasn't the problem, right? But that wasn't the problem, right? Because they right, they were perfect. Because they right, they were perfect. Because they right, they were perfect. They were in a in a state of pre not They were in a in a state of pre not They were in a in a state of pre not quite. People argue about this, but quite. People argue about this, but quite. People argue about this, but at the end of the day, they they said at the end of the day, they they said at the end of the day, they they said God said, "Here's what the relationship God said, "Here's what the relationship God said, "Here's what the relationship looks like." And he and we said, "No, I looks like." And he and we said, "No, I looks like." And he and we said, "No, I think I know better. I'm going to do think I know better. I'm going to do think I know better. I'm going to do this differently." If that's true, then this differently." If that's true, then this differently." If that's true, then your main problem in life isn't that you your main problem in life isn't that you your main problem in life isn't that you have don't have enough information and have don't have enough information and have don't have enough information and have a perfectly curated um sermon. It have a perfectly curated um sermon. It have a perfectly curated um sermon. It it's that your heart has not loves the it's that your heart has not loves the it's that your heart has not loves the wrong things. So going back to that text wrong things. So going back to that text wrong things. So going back to that text of but have not love. What's love? Love of but have not love. What's love? Love of but have not love. What's love? Love is commitments. What God wants your is commitments. What God wants your is commitments. What God wants your heart. He wants your heart more than he heart. He wants your heart more than he heart. He wants your heart more than he wants your obedience. He wants your wants your obedience. He wants your wants your obedience. He wants your heart more than he wants your your you heart more than he wants your your you heart more than he wants your your you know your outputs and your performances.

know your outputs and your performances. know your outputs and your performances. So I I I think when it comes to writing So I I I think when it comes to writing So I I I think when it comes to writing sermons, sermons, sermons, I need you can't actually help people I need you can't actually help people I need you can't actually help people with their hearts if you're just giving with their hearts if you're just giving with their hearts if you're just giving them great content because you're not them great content because you're not them great content because you're not work part of being a minister is work part of being a minister is work part of being a minister is is is is present presenting the beauty of Jesus present presenting the beauty of Jesus present presenting the beauty of Jesus and not just the concept and the content and not just the concept and the content and not just the concept and the content of Jesus. And you can't present the of Jesus. And you can't present the of Jesus. And you can't present the beauty if there's not a love beauty if there's not a love beauty if there's not a love relationship there. Sorry. relationship there. Sorry. relationship there. Sorry. >> Absolutely. And and I think the word >> Absolutely. And and I think the word >> Absolutely. And and I think the word content is actually quite helpful here, content is actually quite helpful here, content is actually quite helpful here, isn't it? Because like you know people isn't it? Because like you know people isn't it? Because like you know people like Marshall Mccclure and Neil Neil like Marshall Mccclure and Neil Neil like Marshall Mccclure and Neil Neil Postman, these these media theorists Postman, these these media theorists Postman, these these media theorists would say it's actually the form that's would say it's actually the form that's would say it's actually the form that's discipling you almost more than the discipling you almost more than the discipling you almost more than the content. So if you're using AI to write content. So if you're using AI to write content. So if you're using AI to write a sermon, that is what is catechizing a sermon, that is what is catechizing a sermon, that is what is catechizing you regardless of the sermon that you you regardless of the sermon that you you regardless of the sermon that you end up with. It's not like the content end up with. It's not like the content end up with. It's not like the content is in a sense the shiny surface in in is in a sense the shiny surface in in is in a sense the shiny surface in in this way of thinking about it, but we this way of thinking about it, but we this way of thinking about it, but we we're discipled by forms. Um, and so if we're discipled by forms. Um, and so if we're discipled by forms. Um, and so if if all we focus on is the content, you if all we focus on is the content, you if all we focus on is the content, you know, getting the great words together know, getting the great words together know, getting the great words together in the right order so that people, you in the right order so that people, you in the right order so that people, you know, think, "Wow, that was a wonderful know, think, "Wow, that was a wonderful know, think, "Wow, that was a wonderful sermon." we're we're naively sermon." we're we're naively sermon." we're we're naively sort of blinding ourselves to the fact sort of blinding ourselves to the fact sort of blinding ourselves to the fact that it's the form, it's the way that we that it's the form, it's the way that we that it's the form, it's the way that we have produced that content that is have produced that content that is have produced that content that is actually catechizing us and discipling actually catechizing us and discipling actually catechizing us and discipling us. Um, and that's a very dangerous us. Um, and that's a very dangerous us. Um, and that's a very dangerous position to be in not to realize how position to be in not to realize how position to be in not to realize how you're being catechized. Yeah. cuz it's

you're being catechized. Yeah. cuz it's you're being catechized. Yeah. cuz it's nudging us towards impatience and and um nudging us towards impatience and and um nudging us towards impatience and and um discomfort with silence, irritation with discomfort with silence, irritation with discomfort with silence, irritation with with human unpredictabil with human unpredictabil with human unpredictabil unpredictability because we have unpredictability because we have unpredictability because we have predictability in the equation. We have predictability in the equation. We have predictability in the equation. We have answers right away formation. You're answers right away formation. You're answers right away formation. You're bringing up a big issue Chris about bringing up a big issue Chris about bringing up a big issue Chris about because I don't think we think enough because I don't think we think enough because I don't think we think enough that to be human at some level is is to that to be human at some level is is to that to be human at some level is is to be formed by what surrounds us. We be formed by what surrounds us. We be formed by what surrounds us. We understand that conceptually when we, understand that conceptually when we, understand that conceptually when we, you know, ads advertisements are you know, ads advertisements are you know, ads advertisements are trillion dollar industry because if you trillion dollar industry because if you trillion dollar industry because if you just put something in front of someone just put something in front of someone just put something in front of someone else, we, you know, you're more else, we, you know, you're more else, we, you know, you're more predisposition to it. But if that's predisposition to it. But if that's predisposition to it. But if that's true, how's that not true for AI itself? true, how's that not true for AI itself? true, how's that not true for AI itself? And what what does a frictionless And what what does a frictionless And what what does a frictionless control speed the ben what what if how control speed the ben what what if how control speed the ben what what if how does that as far as all the good that does that as far as all the good that does that as far as all the good that happens? How's that not actually also happens? How's that not actually also happens? How's that not actually also reshaping us and and changing us? I reshaping us and and changing us? I reshaping us and and changing us? I think we have to be more thoughtful think we have to be more thoughtful think we have to be more thoughtful about that. Um, and I again I think love about that. Um, and I again I think love about that. Um, and I again I think love loves and and and order of those loves loves and and and order of those loves loves and and and order of those loves to me from Austinian point of view is is to me from Austinian point of view is is to me from Austinian point of view is is a a helpful way and and the Bible's, you a a helpful way and and the Bible's, you a a helpful way and and the Bible's, you know, chalk full of conversation about know, chalk full of conversation about know, chalk full of conversation about that for as a a natural uh way to that for as a a natural uh way to that for as a a natural uh way to bracket both the benefits and also bracket both the benefits and also bracket both the benefits and also problems with AI.

problems with AI. problems with AI. >> Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. >> Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. >> Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Augustine is, you know, as in every Augustine is, you know, as in every Augustine is, you know, as in every generation, really coming into his own generation, really coming into his own generation, really coming into his own and and this this way of looking at life and and this this way of looking at life and and this this way of looking at life as as in terms of rightly ordered loves as as in terms of rightly ordered loves as as in terms of rightly ordered loves and the way that AI risks disordering and the way that AI risks disordering and the way that AI risks disordering those loves, I I I find personally those loves, I I I find personally those loves, I I I find personally incredibly helpful way of trying to incredibly helpful way of trying to incredibly helpful way of trying to discern what's going on in our cultural discern what's going on in our cultural discern what's going on in our cultural moment. But but I I want to flip this moment. But but I I want to flip this moment. But but I I want to flip this idea. So AI is forming us. It's idea. So AI is forming us. It's idea. So AI is forming us. It's catechizing us not only in the terms of catechizing us not only in the terms of catechizing us not only in the terms of content but but perhaps more content but but perhaps more content but but perhaps more fundamentally in terms of form but what fundamentally in terms of form but what fundamentally in terms of form but what then might a Christian biblical counter then might a Christian biblical counter then might a Christian biblical counter catechesis look like that that's catechesis look like that that's catechesis look like that that's specifically sort of written for the age specifically sort of written for the age specifically sort of written for the age of AI? what what are the the habits and of AI? what what are the the habits and of AI? what what are the the habits and the the sort of the lurggical the the sort of the lurggical the the sort of the lurggical um ways of of behaving and being and um ways of of behaving and being and um ways of of behaving and being and thinking that are going to be thinking that are going to be thinking that are going to be particularly helpful for Christians particularly helpful for Christians particularly helpful for Christians right now given the way that AI is right now given the way that AI is right now given the way that AI is shaping us as as human beings and shaping us as as human beings and shaping us as as human beings and shaping what we expect out of shaping what we expect out of shaping what we expect out of relationships and and out of the world.

relationships and and out of the world. relationships and and out of the world. uh in no particular order again uh in no particular order again uh in no particular order again you take the benefits of AI all all the you take the benefits of AI all all the you take the benefits of AI all all the knowledge all the instantaneous all that knowledge all the instantaneous all that knowledge all the instantaneous all that stuff I think it if it's categizing us stuff I think it if it's categizing us stuff I think it if it's categizing us into a worship of efficiency speed and into a worship of efficiency speed and into a worship of efficiency speed and control and perfectly curated if I mean control and perfectly curated if I mean control and perfectly curated if I mean think of your phone I love I love phones think of your phone I love I love phones think of your phone I love I love phones but the benefit is is I can have but the benefit is is I can have but the benefit is is I can have instantaneous information things like instantaneous information things like instantaneous information things like that but then I can also close down that but then I can also close down that but then I can also close down relationship I can ghost people if relationship I can ghost people if relationship I can ghost people if That's the benefit of of of your That's the benefit of of of your That's the benefit of of of your technology. Then that means technology. Then that means technology. Then that means a a counter katakis would be very a a counter katakis would be very a a counter katakis would be very ancient. It's going to be silence, ancient. It's going to be silence, ancient. It's going to be silence, lament, embodied community, uh lament, embodied community, uh lament, embodied community, uh reading scripture slowly, confession, reading scripture slowly, confession, reading scripture slowly, confession, the the the t if if this is a intangible the the the t if if this is a intangible the the the t if if this is a intangible and ethereal, then then the tangible and ethereal, then then the tangible and ethereal, then then the tangible nature of of our sacraments, the Lord's nature of of our sacraments, the Lord's nature of of our sacraments, the Lord's supper. I I think there's just tons and supper. I I think there's just tons and supper. I I think there's just tons and tons of disciplines. Um, tons of disciplines. Um, tons of disciplines. Um, and I and what's hard is I'm not really and I and what's hard is I'm not really and I and what's hard is I'm not really good at these. I don't know about you, good at these. I don't know about you, good at these. I don't know about you, Chris, but sitting in silence for 5 Chris, but sitting in silence for 5 Chris, but sitting in silence for 5 minutes a day with no inputs, no minutes a day with no inputs, no minutes a day with no inputs, no outputs, and and asking, you know, just outputs, and and asking, you know, just outputs, and and asking, you know, just trying to be present with the Lord. Uh, trying to be present with the Lord. Uh, trying to be present with the Lord. Uh, lamenting, you know, AI doesn't lament.

lamenting, you know, AI doesn't lament. lamenting, you know, AI doesn't lament. It generates solutions. It it it it it It generates solutions. It it it it it It generates solutions. It it it it it doesn't lament by definition is saying doesn't lament by definition is saying doesn't lament by definition is saying this is really hard and I'm really sad this is really hard and I'm really sad this is really hard and I'm really sad and Lord will you hear my hear me say and Lord will you hear my hear me say and Lord will you hear my hear me say this out loud. AI is not going to be this out loud. AI is not going to be this out loud. AI is not going to be able to give you [laughter] able to give you [laughter] able to give you [laughter] can't do that because it's not doesn't can't do that because it's not doesn't can't do that because it's not doesn't have agency. So I know what would you have agency. So I know what would you have agency. So I know what would you what what do you think? I I agree and what what do you think? I I agree and what what do you think? I I agree and the the thought that came to mind as you the the thought that came to mind as you the the thought that came to mind as you were saying that is that it there's a were saying that is that it there's a were saying that is that it there's a way in which the the secular world is way in which the the secular world is way in which the the secular world is they're ahead of Christians at the they're ahead of Christians at the they're ahead of Christians at the moment because people are coming to moment because people are coming to moment because people are coming to churches in greater numbers certainly in churches in greater numbers certainly in churches in greater numbers certainly in my experience than they have for a long my experience than they have for a long my experience than they have for a long time and what they're looking for is not time and what they're looking for is not time and what they're looking for is not sometimes the things that that we obsess sometimes the things that that we obsess sometimes the things that that we obsess about it it's not the presentation it's about it it's not the presentation it's about it it's not the presentation it's not the, you know, the curated curated not the, you know, the curated curated not the, you know, the curated curated beauty and Yeah. everything perfect. beauty and Yeah. everything perfect. beauty and Yeah. everything perfect. >> Yeah. Like they no interest in that. >> Yeah. Like they no interest in that. >> Yeah. Like they no interest in that. They they want the, They they want the, They they want the, >> you know, the silence, the lament, the >> you know, the silence, the lament, the >> you know, the silence, the lament, the messiness, the being physically messiness, the being physically messiness, the being physically proximate with people who are not like proximate with people who are not like proximate with people who are not like you. They want the slight awkwardness of you. They want the slight awkwardness of you. They want the slight awkwardness of people singing together. Like when does people singing together. Like when does people singing together. Like when does that happen in society? And I think that that happen in society? And I think that that happen in society? And I think that is so well it's it's many things, isn't is so well it's it's many things, isn't is so well it's it's many things, isn't it? It's it's so telling that these the it? It's it's so telling that these the it? It's it's so telling that these the the very things that are at the heart of the very things that are at the heart of the very things that are at the heart of Christian community are things that Christian community are things that Christian community are things that society is crying out for at the moment.

society is crying out for at the moment. society is crying out for at the moment. Um and things that are lacking. Um, and Um and things that are lacking. Um, and Um and things that are lacking. Um, and it it it's also reminding us as it it it's also reminding us as it it it's also reminding us as Christians not to jump on the bandwagon Christians not to jump on the bandwagon Christians not to jump on the bandwagon of whatever the latest trend is, whether of whatever the latest trend is, whether of whatever the latest trend is, whether it's AI or, you know, it'll be something it's AI or, you know, it'll be something it's AI or, you know, it'll be something else in the next generation, but to else in the next generation, but to else in the next generation, but to remember that what what we have in the remember that what what we have in the remember that what what we have in the biblical model of Christian community biblical model of Christian community biblical model of Christian community with all its messiness and awkwardness with all its messiness and awkwardness with all its messiness and awkwardness and tensions and tensions and tensions and inefficiencies, and inefficiencies, and inefficiencies, it is at the end of the day when all the it is at the end of the day when all the it is at the end of the day when all the shouting's over is the best way to be as shouting's over is the best way to be as shouting's over is the best way to be as a human being. Um, and not to not to a human being. Um, and not to not to a human being. Um, and not to not to lose our nerve because sometimes society lose our nerve because sometimes society lose our nerve because sometimes society scorns us and sometimes society flocks scorns us and sometimes society flocks scorns us and sometimes society flocks to us, but you know, if we set our to us, but you know, if we set our to us, but you know, if we set our compass by the way that society thinks compass by the way that society thinks compass by the way that society thinks of us in any given cultural moment, then of us in any given cultural moment, then of us in any given cultural moment, then we'll be all over the place. and just we'll be all over the place. and just we'll be all over the place. and just just trust God. You know, he's he's he's just trust God. You know, he's he's he's just trust God. You know, he's he's he's given us the best given us the best given us the best and it would be it would be miss of us and it would be it would be miss of us and it would be it would be miss of us to go looking for something else.

to go looking for something else. to go looking for something else. >> That's just so hard for so many people >> That's just so hard for so many people >> That's just so hard for so many people in in in the faith, they think that it's in in in the faith, they think that it's in in in the faith, they think that it's it's the perfect ironically we think it's the perfect ironically we think it's the perfect ironically we think it's if I have the c perfect answer, the it's if I have the c perfect answer, the it's if I have the c perfect answer, the perfect curated thing. But I think this perfect curated thing. But I think this perfect curated thing. But I think this is you're right that where a lot of the is you're right that where a lot of the is you're right that where a lot of the secular world is ahead of Christians is secular world is ahead of Christians is secular world is ahead of Christians is like no they they want the messiness like no they they want the messiness like no they they want the messiness because because because they see the humanness inside of that in they see the humanness inside of that in they see the humanness inside of that in some ways maybe better than sometimes some ways maybe better than sometimes some ways maybe better than sometimes people inside the church. So I think people inside the church. So I think people inside the church. So I think there's a real opportunity there to come there's a real opportunity there to come there's a real opportunity there to come as you are you know the the church as you are you know the the church as you are you know the the church offers that but if we really believe it offers that but if we really believe it offers that but if we really believe it ourselves and that's you know do we ourselves and that's you know do we ourselves and that's you know do we that's the question. that's the question. that's the question. >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um let's get into the future a little bit. let's get into the future a little bit. let's get into the future a little bit. So imagine your congregation uh at So imagine your congregation uh at So imagine your congregation uh at Redeem Lincoln Square 10 years down the Redeem Lincoln Square 10 years down the Redeem Lincoln Square 10 years down the line. Um and you're you're looking back line. Um and you're you're looking back line. Um and you're you're looking back on 2026 on 2026 on 2026 and you're thinking about how you were and you're thinking about how you were and you're thinking about how you were engaging with AI. engaging with AI. engaging with AI. What do you hope that members of your What do you hope that members of your What do you hope that members of your congregation will say that God was congregation will say that God was congregation will say that God was teaching them in 2026 about AI?

teaching them in 2026 about AI? teaching them in 2026 about AI? >> H >> H >> H that's such a great question. It's also that's such a great question. It's also that's such a great question. It's also a super hard question cuz you're like to a super hard question cuz you're like to a super hard question cuz you're like to answer what you hope they will find, but answer what you hope they will find, but answer what you hope they will find, but that means where are they now? I mean I that means where are they now? I mean I that means where are they now? I mean I I hope I hope I hope I think we're in this space where we're I think we're in this space where we're I think we're in this space where we're all a lot of f with any new technology all a lot of f with any new technology all a lot of f with any new technology I think any culture is struggling to I think any culture is struggling to I think any culture is struggling to figure out how to use it and use it well figure out how to use it and use it well figure out how to use it and use it well and effectively and have the imagination and effectively and have the imagination and effectively and have the imagination how to use it well. I think I saw some how to use it well. I think I saw some how to use it well. I think I saw some statistic that said when the car the the statistic that said when the car the the statistic that said when the car the the technology for cars came up, they they technology for cars came up, they they technology for cars came up, they they the first cars were very much they the first cars were very much they the first cars were very much they looked like locomotives cuz nobody had looked like locomotives cuz nobody had looked like locomotives cuz nobody had the the the you know nobody had the imagination how you know nobody had the imagination how you know nobody had the imagination how a car could look differently than what a car could look differently than what a car could look differently than what other means of transportation. So I other means of transportation. So I other means of transportation. So I think we're yeah world they called them think we're yeah world they called them think we're yeah world they called them horseless carriages, didn't they? Cuz horseless carriages, didn't they? Cuz horseless carriages, didn't they? Cuz that's that's all that they could that's that's all that they could that's that's all that they could imagine. Many senses in which we're in imagine. Many senses in which we're in imagine. Many senses in which we're in the horseless carriage moment of AI. We the horseless carriage moment of AI. We the horseless carriage moment of AI. We don't really know what it is yet, don't really know what it is yet, don't really know what it is yet, >> but it it sort of it looks and talks >> but it it sort of it looks and talks >> but it it sort of it looks and talks like a human being. But as you're saying like a human being. But as you're saying like a human being. But as you're saying that, that doesn't mean it's human. So, that, that doesn't mean it's human. So, that, that doesn't mean it's human. So, what on earth is this thing?

what on earth is this thing? what on earth is this thing? >> So, maybe that's that's the benefit is >> So, maybe that's that's the benefit is >> So, maybe that's that's the benefit is that the benefit is we're in the space that the benefit is we're in the space that the benefit is we're in the space of what it can do. I think what my hope of what it can do. I think what my hope of what it can do. I think what my hope for my congregation is for them to for my congregation is for them to for my congregation is for them to realize what it can't do. That it can't realize what it can't do. That it can't realize what it can't do. That it can't love sacrificially. It can't forgive love sacrificially. It can't forgive love sacrificially. It can't forgive truly. It can't hope against all truly. It can't hope against all truly. It can't hope against all evidence. It can't pray. It can't evidence. It can't pray. It can't evidence. It can't pray. It can't grieve. And I hope that they I hope they grieve. And I hope that they I hope they grieve. And I hope that they I hope they see that there there is a beauty in that see that there there is a beauty in that see that there there is a beauty in that that and that they come to that that AI that and that they come to that that AI that and that they come to that that AI shows them the edge of what it means to shows them the edge of what it means to shows them the edge of what it means to be human that that it can't replicate be human that that it can't replicate be human that that it can't replicate and that their own humanity is is and that their own humanity is is and that their own humanity is is propped up and validated more instead of propped up and validated more instead of propped up and validated more instead of being despondent of like here's what I being despondent of like here's what I being despondent of like here's what I can't do because this thing's taking my can't do because this thing's taking my can't do because this thing's taking my job or this thing's doing this. I hope job or this thing's doing this. I hope job or this thing's doing this. I hope that they see what it can't touch. And that they see what it can't touch. And that they see what it can't touch. And around those edges, they see things that around those edges, they see things that around those edges, they see things that they never noticed before. And and and they never noticed before. And and and they never noticed before. And and and hopefully that's turns out to be God, hopefully that's turns out to be God, hopefully that's turns out to be God, that God loves them and wants them and that God loves them and wants them and that God loves them and wants them and and it wants them to turn to that to and it wants them to turn to that to and it wants them to turn to that to him. I hope that AI helps them in there.

him. I hope that AI helps them in there. him. I hope that AI helps them in there. That's that's probably what that's That's that's probably what that's That's that's probably what that's probably my biggest hope for them. Yeah. probably my biggest hope for them. Yeah. probably my biggest hope for them. Yeah. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. One more scenario where I'm inviting you One more scenario where I'm inviting you One more scenario where I'm inviting you to to dream. Imagine that all the major to to dream. Imagine that all the major to to dream. Imagine that all the major AI corporations in the world came to you AI corporations in the world came to you AI corporations in the world came to you and said, "Michael, we we really value and said, "Michael, we we really value and said, "Michael, we we really value your Christian wisdom. Uh, and we want your Christian wisdom. Uh, and we want your Christian wisdom. Uh, and we want you to write a sentence that will go on you to write a sentence that will go on you to write a sentence that will go on the login screen of all our apps." So, the login screen of all our apps." So, the login screen of all our apps." So, when you log into Chat GPT or or Gemini when you log into Chat GPT or or Gemini when you log into Chat GPT or or Gemini or Claude or whatever it is, this or Claude or whatever it is, this or Claude or whatever it is, this sentence will appear on the login sentence will appear on the login sentence will appear on the login screen. And we'd love you to to shape screen. And we'd love you to to shape screen. And we'd love you to to shape that sentence for us. the thing that you that sentence for us. the thing that you that sentence for us. the thing that you think people most need to bear in mind think people most need to bear in mind think people most need to bear in mind as they're using these LLMs. Um, what as they're using these LLMs. Um, what as they're using these LLMs. Um, what what would you want that sentence to what would you want that sentence to what would you want that sentence to remind people of? This is a great question. This is a great question. I have two thoughts. One is I have two thoughts. One is I have two thoughts. One is my snarky thought would be what this my snarky thought would be what this my snarky thought would be what this tool cannot give you is precisely what tool cannot give you is precisely what tool cannot give you is precisely what you need most. [laughter] you need most. [laughter] you need most. [laughter] >> I don't think any I don't think I don't >> I don't think any I don't think I don't >> I don't think any I don't think I don't think any corporation's going to let me think any corporation's going to let me think any corporation's going to let me write that there. You know what what you write that there. You know what what you write that there. You know what what you need most is not what this thing can need most is not what this thing can need most is not what this thing can give you. But but maybe maybe you are give you. But but maybe maybe you are give you. But but maybe maybe you are more than your outputs.

more than your outputs. more than your outputs. Maybe that'd be kind that would be kind Maybe that'd be kind that would be kind Maybe that'd be kind that would be kind of of of it reminds me of the old goo Google used it reminds me of the old goo Google used it reminds me of the old goo Google used to have a motto do no evil. They got rid to have a motto do no evil. They got rid to have a motto do no evil. They got rid of that for various reasons. Really of that for various reasons. Really of that for various reasons. Really interesting that yeah don't we won't go interesting that yeah don't we won't go interesting that yeah don't we won't go that's a whole another podcast. But it'd that's a whole another podcast. But it'd that's a whole another podcast. But it'd be kind of interesting to if there was be kind of interesting to if there was be kind of interesting to if there was like you are more than your outputs. like you are more than your outputs. like you are more than your outputs. Okay. Now, what do you want to now what Okay. Now, what do you want to now what Okay. Now, what do you want to now what can this equation help you with? Um, can this equation help you with? Um, can this equation help you with? Um, again, because I think again, because I think again, because I think knowing who we are in light of te this knowing who we are in light of te this knowing who we are in light of te this technology will be one of the possible technology will be one of the possible technology will be one of the possible blessings through this process. If if blessings through this process. If if blessings through this process. If if the, you know, 10 years, let's do it the, you know, 10 years, let's do it the, you know, 10 years, let's do it podcast again. We we'll see where we're podcast again. We we'll see where we're podcast again. We we'll see where we're at. But yeah, that's it. What What would at. But yeah, that's it. What What would at. But yeah, that's it. What What would you say? you say? you say? >> I I'd struggle to improve on on those >> I I'd struggle to improve on on those >> I I'd struggle to improve on on those answers. I think what what I love about answers. I think what what I love about answers. I think what what I love about your second response there is that it your second response there is that it your second response there is that it frames it, doesn't it? It's it's not frames it, doesn't it? It's it's not frames it, doesn't it? It's it's not saying, you know, this is the devil. saying, you know, this is the devil. saying, you know, this is the devil. This is, you know, stay away. Um, but This is, you know, stay away. Um, but This is, you know, stay away. Um, but it's it's saying remember what this tool it's it's saying remember what this tool it's it's saying remember what this tool is for and remember where its limits is for and remember where its limits is for and remember where its limits are.

are. are. >> Um, and there's the the the most >> Um, and there's the the the most >> Um, and there's the the the most fundamental things about you it cannot fundamental things about you it cannot fundamental things about you it cannot touch. It can help you produce better touch. It can help you produce better touch. It can help you produce better outputs, but please don't start thinking outputs, but please don't start thinking outputs, but please don't start thinking >> that those amount to who you are at your >> that those amount to who you are at your >> that those amount to who you are at your deepest level. deepest level. deepest level. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You're safe there, but there's more to >> You're safe there, but there's more to >> You're safe there, but there's more to you now. you now. you now. >> Yeah. Use it wisely. Like, go ahead and >> Yeah. Use it wisely. Like, go ahead and >> Yeah. Use it wisely. Like, go ahead and use it. And, you know, there's a whole use it. And, you know, there's a whole use it. And, you know, there's a whole other episode of this show where where other episode of this show where where other episode of this show where where we're talking about the the ethical and we're talking about the the ethical and we're talking about the the ethical and and social problems with AI. you know, and social problems with AI. you know, and social problems with AI. you know, the fact that it uses so much water and the fact that it uses so much water and the fact that it uses so much water and and the where the data centers are and the where the data centers are and the where the data centers are built, the impact on communities and so built, the impact on communities and so built, the impact on communities and so forth. So, be be aware of all those forth. So, be be aware of all those forth. So, be be aware of all those things. Use it, use it wisely, but things. Use it, use it wisely, but things. Use it, use it wisely, but remember what the tool is there for and remember what the tool is there for and remember what the tool is there for and what its limits are. I I I don't think I what its limits are. I I I don't think I what its limits are. I I I don't think I could do better uh than that. could do better uh than that. could do better uh than that. >> Um, as I think it's I think all of us >> Um, as I think it's I think all of us >> Um, as I think it's I think all of us need to start there. All of us need to need to start there. All of us need to need to start there. All of us need to start where's the what does it mean to start where's the what does it mean to start where's the what does it mean to be human? What's the safety and the be human? What's the safety and the be human? What's the safety and the Christian answer? And now that we know Christian answer? And now that we know Christian answer? And now that we know that I'm more than my outputs, what do I that I'm more than my outputs, what do I that I'm more than my outputs, what do I now now what can I do with this?

now now what can I do with this? now now what can I do with this? >> It's like the the opening of Calvin's >> It's like the the opening of Calvin's >> It's like the the opening of Calvin's Institutes, isn't it? Like the the key Institutes, isn't it? Like the the key Institutes, isn't it? Like the the key questions that you can't answer one questions that you can't answer one questions that you can't answer one without the other is who is God and who without the other is who is God and who without the other is who is God and who am I? You get those you get a working am I? You get those you get a working am I? You get those you get a working response to those questions. Then you response to those questions. Then you response to those questions. Then you ask what is AI and how can he help me? ask what is AI and how can he help me? ask what is AI and how can he help me? But if your first question is, "How can But if your first question is, "How can But if your first question is, "How can AI help me?" then you're never going to AI help me?" then you're never going to AI help me?" then you're never going to get a wise answer. If you haven't got get a wise answer. If you haven't got get a wise answer. If you haven't got some sort of response to who is God and some sort of response to who is God and some sort of response to who is God and who am I to begin with? Yeah. And I who am I to begin with? Yeah. And I who am I to begin with? Yeah. And I think there's Christians and think there's Christians and think there's Christians and non-Christians that haven't answered who non-Christians that haven't answered who non-Christians that haven't answered who am I and you know, what is God or who is am I and you know, what is God or who is am I and you know, what is God or who is God out there? And if you can't if you God out there? And if you can't if you God out there? And if you can't if you haven't answered that question first, haven't answered that question first, haven't answered that question first, you're not going to know how to use AI you're not going to know how to use AI you're not going to know how to use AI uh one way or the other. It'll be it's uh one way or the other. It'll be it's uh one way or the other. It'll be it's just going to be an infinite uh abyss. just going to be an infinite uh abyss. just going to be an infinite uh abyss. That's a really great point, Chris. And That's a really great point, Chris. And That's a really great point, Chris. And I think I think I think >> it's going to use you, isn't it? >> it's going to use you, isn't it? >> it's going to use you, isn't it? Because, you know, one thing that we Because, you know, one thing that we Because, you know, one thing that we need to keep in mind is that the the need to keep in mind is that the the need to keep in mind is that the the people giving us these AR tools are not people giving us these AR tools are not people giving us these AR tools are not doing so out of charity. Um that that doing so out of charity. Um that that doing so out of charity. Um that that there is a groove that we will settle there is a groove that we will settle there is a groove that we will settle into and a way that we will be used and into and a way that we will be used and into and a way that we will be used and prompted. Our behavior will be prompted prompted. Our behavior will be prompted prompted. Our behavior will be prompted if if we haven't taken time to think if if we haven't taken time to think if if we haven't taken time to think seriously about how we want to use these seriously about how we want to use these seriously about how we want to use these things to fit into our view of how the things to fit into our view of how the things to fit into our view of how the the universe is and who we are. I the universe is and who we are. I the universe is and who we are. I remember when I got Gmail and it was remember when I got Gmail and it was remember when I got Gmail and it was free and then all these social media free and then all these social media free and then all these social media platforms are free. I'm like this is platforms are free. I'm like this is platforms are free. I'm like this is amazing. Then somebody very wise told me amazing. Then somebody very wise told me amazing. Then somebody very wise told me he said you know if if it's free that he said you know if if it's free that he said you know if if it's free that means you're the product because they means you're the product because they means you're the product because they want your information and they're going

want your information and they're going want your information and they're going to use that to sell and buy and do other to use that to sell and buy and do other to use that to sell and buy and do other stuff. And I was like, "Oh, so nothing's stuff. And I was like, "Oh, so nothing's stuff. And I was like, "Oh, so nothing's actually for free." And so in the samea actually for free." And so in the samea actually for free." And so in the samea case, same thing with AI, if you're not case, same thing with AI, if you're not case, same thing with AI, if you're not thoughtful about what it's what it's thoughtful about what it's what it's thoughtful about what it's what it's what it can actually give you, you're what it can actually give you, you're what it can actually give you, you're just going to get used by it. It's such just going to get used by it. It's such just going to get used by it. It's such a good point. a good point. a good point. >> Two final questions um that that I'm >> Two final questions um that that I'm >> Two final questions um that that I'm asking to to everyone we chat to uh on asking to to everyone we chat to uh on asking to to everyone we chat to uh on Silicon Spirituality is the first one is Silicon Spirituality is the first one is Silicon Spirituality is the first one is uh what is one inefficient human habit uh what is one inefficient human habit uh what is one inefficient human habit uh that you're committed to keeping in uh that you're committed to keeping in uh that you're committed to keeping in the age of AI? one inefficient. I mean the age of AI? one inefficient. I mean the age of AI? one inefficient. I mean I mean because we're challenging like I mean because we're challenging like I mean because we're challenging like what does it mean to be a person? I mean what does it mean to be a person? I mean what does it mean to be a person? I mean very practically very simply writing out very practically very simply writing out very practically very simply writing out my own sermons. Um I I use I actually my own sermons. Um I I use I actually my own sermons. Um I I use I actually uploaded into AI a um a grading system uploaded into AI a um a grading system uploaded into AI a um a grading system and I write out my sermons and I and I write out my sermons and I and I write out my sermons and I actually ask AI to like grade me versus actually ask AI to like grade me versus actually ask AI to like grade me versus my and then it gives me helpful like my and then it gives me helpful like my and then it gives me helpful like pattern recognition of things that I can pattern recognition of things that I can pattern recognition of things that I can work on. And so I I do use AI in my work on. And so I I do use AI in my work on. And so I I do use AI in my sermons, but I don't use it to write my sermons, but I don't use it to write my sermons, but I don't use it to write my sermons. And I and I feel very um sermons. And I and I feel very um sermons. And I and I feel very um committed to to doing that because I committed to to doing that because I committed to to doing that because I want my sermons to be as a pastor uh to want my sermons to be as a pastor uh to want my sermons to be as a pastor uh to be my working through scripture and what be my working through scripture and what be my working through scripture and what the Lord is saying and to me and then the Lord is saying and to me and then the Lord is saying and to me and then working through that for my working through that for my working through that for my congregation. So it's inefficient. It'd congregation. So it's inefficient. It'd congregation. So it's inefficient. It'd be a lot more efficient just to be a lot more efficient just to be a lot more efficient just to outsource all that. But I I I feel very outsource all that. But I I I feel very outsource all that. But I I I feel very good about that.

good about that. good about that. >> And and I think it's also like writing a >> And and I think it's also like writing a >> And and I think it's also like writing a sermon is about who you're becoming, sermon is about who you're becoming, sermon is about who you're becoming, isn't it? Again, it's not about content. isn't it? Again, it's not about content. isn't it? Again, it's not about content. >> It's a process of discovery that comes >> It's a process of discovery that comes >> It's a process of discovery that comes out through the the pushpull of okay, out through the the pushpull of okay, out through the the pushpull of okay, here's the text is it every scripture is here's the text is it every scripture is here's the text is it every scripture is always application. It's telling you who always application. It's telling you who always application. It's telling you who God is, who you are, what you're doing God is, who you are, what you're doing God is, who you are, what you're doing or not doing, and then your own or not doing, and then your own or not doing, and then your own interaction with it. And so there's a interaction with it. And so there's a interaction with it. And so there's a it's a I think I heard I think my dad it's a I think I heard I think my dad it's a I think I heard I think my dad one time said the scripture does you one time said the scripture does you one time said the scripture does you don't just read scripture you have to don't just read scripture you have to don't just read scripture you have to let scripture read you. If if I want let scripture read you. If if I want let scripture read you. If if I want scripture to read me I can't outsource scripture to read me I can't outsource scripture to read me I can't outsource that. I have to do the I have to do the that. I have to do the I have to do the that. I have to do the I have to do the work. Um and so I'm committed to that. work. Um and so I'm committed to that. work. Um and so I'm committed to that. >> And the sort of the one of the paradatic >> And the sort of the one of the paradatic >> And the sort of the one of the paradatic examples of that in the Bible is the examples of that in the Bible is the examples of that in the Bible is the psalmist, isn't it? how the psalmists psalmist, isn't it? how the psalmists psalmist, isn't it? how the psalmists wrestle with God and how in the course wrestle with God and how in the course wrestle with God and how in the course of a psalm that shapes them and forms of a psalm that shapes them and forms of a psalm that shapes them and forms them and almost twists them or untwists them and almost twists them or untwists them and almost twists them or untwists them from their wrong ways of looking at them from their wrong ways of looking at them from their wrong ways of looking at the world. And if you know in verse one the world. And if you know in verse one the world. And if you know in verse one they just fired a question off to an LLM they just fired a question off to an LLM they just fired a question off to an LLM and got an answer. You you wouldn't have and got an answer. You you wouldn't have and got an answer. You you wouldn't have the psalm. You wouldn't have that the psalm. You wouldn't have that the psalm. You wouldn't have that journey of becoming someone different journey of becoming someone different journey of becoming someone different through wrestling uh with God.

through wrestling uh with God. through wrestling uh with God. >> Yeah. I think Job is such an interesting >> Yeah. I think Job is such an interesting >> Yeah. I think Job is such an interesting book because so much of Job is Job com book because so much of Job is Job com book because so much of Job is Job com complaining and and to God about all complaining and and to God about all complaining and and to God about all kinds of things, but the the difference kinds of things, but the the difference kinds of things, but the the difference is he's still talking to God. And and I is he's still talking to God. And and I is he's still talking to God. And and I think God cares about us less about the think God cares about us less about the think God cares about us less about the perfect output and more that we're perfect output and more that we're perfect output and more that we're actually out outputting to him. And it's actually out outputting to him. And it's actually out outputting to him. And it's the relational aspect. And I think the relational aspect. And I think the relational aspect. And I think that's I I'm committed to to make I'm that's I I'm committed to to make I'm that's I I'm committed to to make I'm you know, you can't give that up. And I you know, you can't give that up. And I you know, you can't give that up. And I think that's one of the benefits God think that's one of the benefits God think that's one of the benefits God want for you. If you know that what want for you. If you know that what want for you. If you know that what makes you unique and as a human is that makes you unique and as a human is that makes you unique and as a human is that that the relational aspect then you that the relational aspect then you that the relational aspect then you don't have to worry about the don't have to worry about the don't have to worry about the presentation or how it comes out. The presentation or how it comes out. The presentation or how it comes out. The fact that it's you is more important fact that it's you is more important fact that it's you is more important than anything else. than anything else. than anything else. >> Amen. I think that's true. And the the >> Amen. I think that's true. And the the >> Amen. I think that's true. And the the second question that I'm asking uh to second question that I'm asking uh to second question that I'm asking uh to everyone is if AI is um a mirror, what everyone is if AI is um a mirror, what everyone is if AI is um a mirror, what do you think that mirror is revealing to do you think that mirror is revealing to do you think that mirror is revealing to you personally about your own heart? you personally about your own heart? you personally about your own heart? Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I think the I think the I think the problem with all technology is we we problem with all technology is we we problem with all technology is we we want the benefit without the want the benefit without the want the benefit without the without the always the negative without the always the negative without the always the negative undercurrent. But if in this world where undercurrent. But if in this world where undercurrent. But if in this world where everything is good but fallen, right?

everything is good but fallen, right? everything is good but fallen, right? Genesis 1, Genesis 3, all even our Genesis 1, Genesis 3, all even our Genesis 1, Genesis 3, all even our technology is technology is technology is when I when I ask that about AI, what is when I when I ask that about AI, what is when I when I ask that about AI, what is it? What idolatry in my own heart is it it? What idolatry in my own heart is it it? What idolatry in my own heart is it serving? It's it's the idea of I want serving? It's it's the idea of I want serving? It's it's the idea of I want the reputation of a well- read, the reputation of a well- read, the reputation of a well- read, well-prepared pastor well-prepared pastor well-prepared pastor um without actually being one. And um AI um without actually being one. And um AI um without actually being one. And um AI AI offers you the appearance of depth AI offers you the appearance of depth AI offers you the appearance of depth without the cost of it. And I I noticed without the cost of it. And I I noticed without the cost of it. And I I noticed in myself and in myself and in myself and you know the wanting to be have all the you know the wanting to be have all the you know the wanting to be have all the answers and be the answer man and stuff answers and be the answer man and stuff answers and be the answer man and stuff like that. Um like that. Um like that. Um it's very it's a what's the word? It's it's very it's a what's the word? It's it's very it's a what's the word? It's in a it's a temptation and um it's a in a it's a temptation and um it's a in a it's a temptation and um it's a mirror showing me, mirror showing me, mirror showing me, you know, that you know, that you know, that you know, you thought you got to a place you know, you thought you got to a place you know, you thought you got to a place of no, you're good. You're just happy to of no, you're good. You're just happy to of no, you're good. You're just happy to be who you are and and just offer that be who you are and and just offer that be who you are and and just offer that cuz that's all God's asking to be and cuz that's all God's asking to be and cuz that's all God's asking to be and then you go, yeah, but then you have then you go, yeah, but then you have then you go, yeah, but then you have this technology as a shortcut this technology as a shortcut this technology as a shortcut to to the to what it means to be human. to to the to what it means to be human. to to the to what it means to be human. And um I'm like, "Wow, okay. I maybe I'm And um I'm like, "Wow, okay. I maybe I'm And um I'm like, "Wow, okay. I maybe I'm not as formed in the way that I want to not as formed in the way that I want to not as formed in the way that I want to be and I'm being formed in the way that be and I'm being formed in the way that be and I'm being formed in the way that I shouldn't be than I thought."

I shouldn't be than I thought." I shouldn't be than I thought." >> I love that phrase you use there, the >> I love that phrase you use there, the >> I love that phrase you use there, the the appearance of depth. That that is the appearance of depth. That that is the appearance of depth. That that is exactly it, isn't it? That is what AI exactly it, isn't it? That is what AI exactly it, isn't it? That is what AI often offers. It reminds me of those, often offers. It reminds me of those, often offers. It reminds me of those, you know, those um sidewalk pastel you know, those um sidewalk pastel you know, those um sidewalk pastel drawings that that people sometimes do drawings that that people sometimes do drawings that that people sometimes do that you can sort of create the illusion that you can sort of create the illusion that you can sort of create the illusion that, you know, the pavement gives way that, you know, the pavement gives way that, you know, the pavement gives way and there's an abyss below or that, you and there's an abyss below or that, you and there's an abyss below or that, you know, there's a river flowing through know, there's a river flowing through know, there's a river flowing through the sidewalk and and if you look at it the sidewalk and and if you look at it the sidewalk and and if you look at it from a particular angle, it it really from a particular angle, it it really from a particular angle, it it really does look as though there's depth there, does look as though there's depth there, does look as though there's depth there, but then you you get to it and you walk but then you you get to it and you walk but then you you get to it and you walk on it and you oh no, it's just the on it and you oh no, it's just the on it and you oh no, it's just the pavement. Um it's just the normal pavement. Um it's just the normal pavement. Um it's just the normal sidewalk. There is no depth there. uh an sidewalk. There is no depth there. uh an sidewalk. There is no depth there. uh an AI allows us to simulate AI allows us to simulate AI allows us to simulate depth uh where where in fact there is no depth uh where where in fact there is no depth uh where where in fact there is no depth. depth. depth. >> It actually lets you I think there's >> It actually lets you I think there's >> It actually lets you I think there's there's a probably a whole another there's a probably a whole another there's a probably a whole another podcast to talk about beauty and and um podcast to talk about beauty and and um podcast to talk about beauty and and um you know I had this debate with somebody you know I had this debate with somebody you know I had this debate with somebody in my church like if a I could make a in my church like if a I could make a in my church like if a I could make a perfect picture that can't compete with perfect picture that can't compete with perfect picture that can't compete with my son's picture uh cuz that's real my son's picture uh cuz that's real my son's picture uh cuz that's real beauty because it's made by a human. I'm beauty because it's made by a human. I'm beauty because it's made by a human. I'm like well it depends on how you define like well it depends on how you define like well it depends on how you define beauty and in in use. But at the it does beauty and in in use. But at the it does beauty and in in use. But at the it does make me worry that if we start producing make me worry that if we start producing make me worry that if we start producing only through AI and AI is the is LLMs only through AI and AI is the is LLMs only through AI and AI is the is LLMs it's it's not even the the average it's it's it's not even the the average it's it's it's not even the the average it's always the equation is taking this uh always the equation is taking this uh always the equation is taking this uh content and still imposing what it content and still imposing what it content and still imposing what it thinks you actually need. But then if thinks you actually need. But then if thinks you actually need. But then if that's coming out of a sense of of uh that's coming out of a sense of of uh that's coming out of a sense of of uh information or content or I worry that information or content or I worry that information or content or I worry that it's not actually going to it's going to

it's not actually going to it's going to it's not actually going to it's going to get it's going to start telling us what get it's going to start telling us what get it's going to start telling us what it is, what is beauty, what is truth it is, what is beauty, what is truth it is, what is beauty, what is truth versus what actually should be. Um yeah, versus what actually should be. Um yeah, versus what actually should be. Um yeah, that's another conversation like what that's another conversation like what that's another conversation like what what it these algorithms are built on, what it these algorithms are built on, what it these algorithms are built on, what content it's built on and what it's what content it's built on and what it's what content it's built on and what it's trying to give you and the bias that's trying to give you and the bias that's trying to give you and the bias that's inherent in the system. But there it is. inherent in the system. But there it is. inherent in the system. But there it is. >> Absolutely. And we we do have an episode >> Absolutely. And we we do have an episode >> Absolutely. And we we do have an episode coming up with um Brett McCracken that coming up with um Brett McCracken that coming up with um Brett McCracken that is really going to try and dive deeply is really going to try and dive deeply is really going to try and dive deeply into these issues. What's AI's relation into these issues. What's AI's relation into these issues. What's AI's relation to beauty, creativity, the creative to beauty, creativity, the creative to beauty, creativity, the creative industries and all that sort of thing. industries and all that sort of thing. industries and all that sort of thing. So I think the ideas that you raise are So I think the ideas that you raise are So I think the ideas that you raise are incredibly important there. Uh and very incredibly important there. Uh and very incredibly important there. Uh and very sensitive, very raw for a lot of people sensitive, very raw for a lot of people sensitive, very raw for a lot of people working in the creative industries I working in the creative industries I working in the creative industries I think at the moment and we we do hope to think at the moment and we we do hope to think at the moment and we we do hope to go into some of those in in a later go into some of those in in a later go into some of those in in a later episode. Um Michael, we have come to the episode. Um Michael, we have come to the episode. Um Michael, we have come to the end uh of the time uh that that we can end uh of the time uh that that we can end uh of the time uh that that we can spend together today. It's been an spend together today. It's been an spend together today. It's been an absolute joy. If if people want to take absolute joy. If if people want to take absolute joy. If if people want to take these questions further, if we've raised these questions further, if we've raised these questions further, if we've raised issues that that you want to think issues that that you want to think issues that that you want to think through more, um do let me point you to through more, um do let me point you to through more, um do let me point you to the Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh the Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh the Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh where we're learning together about how where we're learning together about how where we're learning together about how to follow Jesus in a techsaturated to follow Jesus in a techsaturated to follow Jesus in a techsaturated world. Um on the Discord server, there world. Um on the Discord server, there world. Um on the Discord server, there are practical life experiments that are practical life experiments that are practical life experiments that accompany each episode. There are uh accompany each episode. There are uh accompany each episode. There are uh details as well of an upcoming online details as well of an upcoming online details as well of an upcoming online cohort that you can join if you'd like cohort that you can join if you'd like cohort that you can join if you'd like to. The the link is in the uh show notes to. The the link is in the uh show notes to. The the link is in the uh show notes and we'd we'd love to see you there. Um and we'd we'd love to see you there. Um and we'd we'd love to see you there. Um so it just remains for me to say, so it just remains for me to say, so it just remains for me to say, Michael, thank you ever so much for Michael, thank you ever so much for Michael, thank you ever so much for these rich rich reflections. Thank you these rich rich reflections. Thank you these rich rich reflections. Thank you for pointing us to the Bible and to

for pointing us to the Bible and to for pointing us to the Bible and to Jesus. It's been a delight uh to discuss Jesus. It's been a delight uh to discuss Jesus. It's been a delight uh to discuss these things with you. these things with you. these things with you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. Really appreciate it. Thanks.