How Kevin Vanhoozer Bridges Biblical Studies and Theology [Gospelbound Ep. 189]

I certainly do draw a connection between I certainly do draw a connection between the transfiguration of Jesus and the way the transfiguration of Jesus and the way the transfiguration of Jesus and the way we should read the Bible. And it's we should read the Bible. And it's we should read the Bible. And it's because the transfiguration is an event because the transfiguration is an event because the transfiguration is an event that that that without distorting the humanity of without distorting the humanity of without distorting the humanity of Jesus, [music] Jesus, [music] Jesus, [music] shows us who he truly is. shows us who he truly is. shows us who he truly is. Light from light. The light streaming Light from light. The light streaming Light from light. The light streaming [music] from Jesus' face [music] from Jesus' face [music] from Jesus' face showing that he is by nature showing that he is by nature showing that he is by nature God God God >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> in the flesh. >> Back in 2024, Kevin Vanhoozer's book >> Back in 2024, Kevin Vanhoozer's book Mere Christian Hermeneutics, [music] Mere Christian Hermeneutics, [music] Mere Christian Hermeneutics, [music] Transfiguring What It Means to Read the Transfiguring What It Means to Read the Transfiguring What It Means to Read the Bible Theologically, won the Bible Theologically, won the Bible Theologically, won the Christianity Today Book Award in the Christianity Today Book Award in the Christianity Today Book Award in the Academic Theology category, and also won Academic Theology category, and also won Academic Theology category, and also won the Gospel Coalition Book Award in the Gospel Coalition Book Award in the Gospel Coalition Book Award in Biblical Studies. I really couldn't even Biblical Studies. I really couldn't even Biblical Studies. I really couldn't even begin to account for all the other begin to account for all the other begin to account for all the other awards Dr. Vanhoozer has won for his awards Dr. Vanhoozer has won for his awards Dr. Vanhoozer has won for his earlier works. I had the blessing of earlier works. I had the blessing of earlier works. I had the blessing of studying under Dr. Vanhoozer at Trinity studying under Dr. Vanhoozer at Trinity studying under Dr. Vanhoozer at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and I was Evangelical Divinity School, and I was Evangelical Divinity School, and I was challenged in this book just as I was challenged in this book just as I was challenged in this book just as I was challenged and encouraged in his challenged and encouraged in his challenged and encouraged in his courses.

courses. courses. That Mere Christian Hermeneutics helps That Mere Christian Hermeneutics helps That Mere Christian Hermeneutics helps all of us who live on the far side of all of us who live on the far side of all of us who live on the far side of the demise of Biblical Civilization. the demise of Biblical Civilization. the demise of Biblical Civilization. When Westerners want to tell the story When Westerners want to tell the story When Westerners want to tell the story of the world, we no longer open the of the world, we no longer open the of the world, we no longer open the Bible to do so. Uh Vanhoozer aims to Bible to do so. Uh Vanhoozer aims to Bible to do so. Uh Vanhoozer aims to reconnect us with scripture as our means reconnect us with scripture as our means reconnect us with scripture as our means of enjoying covenant fellowship with the of enjoying covenant fellowship with the of enjoying covenant fellowship with the triune God. And I loved this summary in triune God. And I loved this summary in triune God. And I loved this summary in the book, quote, "How an unholy people the book, quote, "How an unholy people the book, quote, "How an unholy people can come into the presence of a holy God can come into the presence of a holy God can come into the presence of a holy God is the chief complication in the is the chief complication in the is the chief complication in the biblical narrative to which the gospel biblical narrative to which the gospel biblical narrative to which the gospel is the solution." is the solution." is the solution." So, let's jump in, get into Mere So, let's jump in, get into Mere So, let's jump in, get into Mere Christian Hermeneutics, Reading the Christian Hermeneutics, Reading the Christian Hermeneutics, Reading the Bible Spiritually, The Transfiguration, Bible Spiritually, The Transfiguration, Bible Spiritually, The Transfiguration, and much more. Kevin, thank you for and much more. Kevin, thank you for and much more. Kevin, thank you for joining me on Gospelbound. joining me on Gospelbound. joining me on Gospelbound. >> Thank you for the invitation. >> Thank you for the invitation. >> Thank you for the invitation. >> Uh let's just start with the basic >> Uh let's just start with the basic >> Uh let's just start with the basic premise of this book. What makes this premise of this book. What makes this premise of this book. What makes this Christian hermeneutics mere? Christian hermeneutics mere? Christian hermeneutics mere? >> So, that's a bold word to use because >> So, that's a bold word to use because >> So, that's a bold word to use because I'm invoking C.S. Lewis. I'm invoking C.S. Lewis. I'm invoking C.S. Lewis. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And um >> And um >> And um what makes it mere is that I I feel that what makes it mere is that I I feel that what makes it mere is that I I feel that we're in a situation of many kinds of we're in a situation of many kinds of we're in a situation of many kinds of polarization.

polarization. polarization. And so, what Lewis called mere And so, what Lewis called mere And so, what Lewis called mere Christianity, Christianity, Christianity, we have to ask today, will the center we have to ask today, will the center we have to ask today, will the center hold? Will the meerness hold or will we hold? Will the meerness hold or will we hold? Will the meerness hold or will we be dividing up into a number of factions be dividing up into a number of factions be dividing up into a number of factions and uh smaller groups at war with one and uh smaller groups at war with one and uh smaller groups at war with one another? And you know, we're in a another? And you know, we're in a another? And you know, we're in a polarized context. And what has polarized context. And what has polarized context. And what has disturbed me is that Christians who say disturbed me is that Christians who say disturbed me is that Christians who say they all believe the Bible are they all believe the Bible are they all believe the Bible are nevertheless polarized about what the nevertheless polarized about what the nevertheless polarized about what the Bible means. And it's not just the Bible means. And it's not just the Bible means. And it's not just the interpretations that are polarizing it. interpretations that are polarizing it. interpretations that are polarizing it. I think it's the way we read the Bible I think it's the way we read the Bible I think it's the way we read the Bible that is the deepest source of this that is the deepest source of this that is the deepest source of this polarization. So, the mere is a polarization. So, the mere is a polarization. So, the mere is a challenge to myself. And by the way, challenge to myself. And by the way, challenge to myself. And by the way, I would sometimes smile at the title and I would sometimes smile at the title and I would sometimes smile at the title and then sometimes cringe, you know, because then sometimes cringe, you know, because then sometimes cringe, you know, because could I make good on this promise to could I make good on this promise to could I make good on this promise to articulate articulate articulate what all Christians do have in common what all Christians do have in common what all Christians do have in common when it comes to reading scripture? It's when it comes to reading scripture? It's when it comes to reading scripture? It's a big ask. But but that was the thrust a big ask. But but that was the thrust a big ask. But but that was the thrust of it, trying to of it, trying to of it, trying to articulate what we all have in common articulate what we all have in common articulate what we all have in common when we seem to be so divided.

when we seem to be so divided. when we seem to be so divided. >> I might as well just go ahead and follow >> I might as well just go ahead and follow >> I might as well just go ahead and follow up on that up on that up on that kind of open door and walk through that kind of open door and walk through that kind of open door and walk through that open door you just had there on open door you just had there on open door you just had there on what why hermeneutics then is the what why hermeneutics then is the what why hermeneutics then is the essential challenge to this unity, not essential challenge to this unity, not essential challenge to this unity, not merely merely merely what the Bible says, but really how what the Bible says, but really how what the Bible says, but really how we're even approaching it and how we're we're even approaching it and how we're we're even approaching it and how we're interpreting it. Explain more of why interpreting it. Explain more of why interpreting it. Explain more of why that's the real challenge underneath that's the real challenge underneath that's the real challenge underneath everything else. everything else. everything else. >> So, I I that all of us, interpreters of >> So, I I that all of us, interpreters of >> So, I I that all of us, interpreters of the Bible have been formed to read the the Bible have been formed to read the the Bible have been formed to read the Bible in certain ways. So, one of the Bible in certain ways. So, one of the Bible in certain ways. So, one of the main concepts of the book is the idea of main concepts of the book is the idea of main concepts of the book is the idea of a reading culture. a reading culture. a reading culture. And by reading culture, I don't simply And by reading culture, I don't simply And by reading culture, I don't simply mean a group of people that like mean a group of people that like mean a group of people that like reading. No, I I mean that every group reading. No, I I mean that every group reading. No, I I mean that every group of readers or every individual reader of readers or every individual reader of readers or every individual reader has been socialized into a way of has been socialized into a way of has been socialized into a way of reading, a culture of reading that is reading, a culture of reading that is reading, a culture of reading that is characterized by having certain values, characterized by having certain values, characterized by having certain values, certain priorities, certain priorities, certain priorities, prioritizing certain questions, and prioritizing certain questions, and prioritizing certain questions, and looking for some things rather than looking for some things rather than looking for some things rather than others.

others. others. And so, if you've been socialized into a And so, if you've been socialized into a And so, if you've been socialized into a way of reading the Bible, even if you way of reading the Bible, even if you way of reading the Bible, even if you meet another Christian and meet another Christian and meet another Christian and you know, want in all good will to get you know, want in all good will to get you know, want in all good will to get along with that person, along with that person, along with that person, there's often a culture shock and a there's often a culture shock and a there's often a culture shock and a culture clash. And cultures are often culture clash. And cultures are often culture clash. And cultures are often invisible because it's the environment invisible because it's the environment invisible because it's the environment in which we live and move and have in which we live and move and have in which we live and move and have reading. reading. reading. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But, if we call out what these values >> But, if we call out what these values >> But, if we call out what these values and assumptions and priorities are, then and assumptions and priorities are, then and assumptions and priorities are, then we're more likely to find out where the we're more likely to find out where the we're more likely to find out where the disagreement really lies. disagreement really lies. disagreement really lies. >> Help us get the lay of the land on some >> Help us get the lay of the land on some >> Help us get the lay of the land on some of the differences between Christians of the differences between Christians of the differences between Christians right now. You know, been involved right now. You know, been involved right now. You know, been involved historically with evangelicals and historically with evangelicals and historically with evangelicals and Catholics together, but I've seen some Catholics together, but I've seen some Catholics together, but I've seen some people saying that recently there's people saying that recently there's people saying that recently there's actually actually actually more conflict theologically between more conflict theologically between more conflict theologically between Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, uh Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, uh Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, uh specifically evangelicals. Do you sense specifically evangelicals. Do you sense specifically evangelicals. Do you sense some of that more I probably YouTube some of that more I probably YouTube some of that more I probably YouTube driven polemics, especially with younger driven polemics, especially with younger driven polemics, especially with younger people? people? people? Uh does that If you see that, does that Uh does that If you see that, does that Uh does that If you see that, does that pose a threat to some of what you're pose a threat to some of what you're pose a threat to some of what you're trying to do here? Or do you think maybe trying to do here? Or do you think maybe trying to do here? Or do you think maybe some of that's overblown, there isn't as some of that's overblown, there isn't as some of that's overblown, there isn't as much conflict right now as it might much conflict right now as it might much conflict right now as it might appear?

appear? appear? >> Well, you know, the conflicts I'm trying >> Well, you know, the conflicts I'm trying >> Well, you know, the conflicts I'm trying to negotiate in the first place are the to negotiate in the first place are the to negotiate in the first place are the ones within the Protestant house. ones within the Protestant house. ones within the Protestant house. You know, we have to clean up our own You know, we have to clean up our own You know, we have to clean up our own house first before we go out into the house first before we go out into the house first before we go out into the neighborhood and try to make friends. neighborhood and try to make friends. neighborhood and try to make friends. But, you know, I do think But, you know, I do think But, you know, I do think that that that you're probably right. There probably is you're probably right. There probably is you're probably right. There probably is in this age of polarization an attempt in this age of polarization an attempt in this age of polarization an attempt to flee the middle ground and to find to flee the middle ground and to find to flee the middle ground and to find some comfort and solace and maybe some comfort and solace and maybe some comfort and solace and maybe defense on in particular communities. Um defense on in particular communities. Um defense on in particular communities. Um It disturbs me a little bit because I It disturbs me a little bit because I It disturbs me a little bit because I think we're doing this. We're polarizing think we're doing this. We're polarizing think we're doing this. We're polarizing in part because of some fear that there in part because of some fear that there in part because of some fear that there is a threat to our identity. And if you is a threat to our identity. And if you is a threat to our identity. And if you view your identity in a narrow way, then view your identity in a narrow way, then view your identity in a narrow way, then yeah, the polarization and the yeah, the polarization and the yeah, the polarization and the pluralization is quite threatening. pluralization is quite threatening. pluralization is quite threatening. But there's a different way of trying to But there's a different way of trying to But there's a different way of trying to fellowship with believers who may not fellowship with believers who may not fellowship with believers who may not agree with you on every particular agree with you on every particular agree with you on every particular point, but they may have the main things point, but they may have the main things point, but they may have the main things in common.

in common. in common. So, I'm beginning in the book at least So, I'm beginning in the book at least So, I'm beginning in the book at least trying to sort out this disagreements trying to sort out this disagreements trying to sort out this disagreements within the Protestant traditions within the Protestant traditions within the Protestant traditions themselves. themselves. themselves. >> Is that fear related to some of the loss >> Is that fear related to some of the loss >> Is that fear related to some of the loss of that Western narrative that I was of that Western narrative that I was of that Western narrative that I was referring to in the introduction? referring to in the introduction? referring to in the introduction? >> Yes, I think you're right. Um >> Yes, I think you're right. Um >> Yes, I think you're right. Um you know, there's a fear that we're no you know, there's a fear that we're no you know, there's a fear that we're no longer a Christian nation, if we ever longer a Christian nation, if we ever longer a Christian nation, if we ever were. There's a fear that the church is were. There's a fear that the church is were. There's a fear that the church is losing its influence socially. The losing its influence socially. The losing its influence socially. The church used to be church used to be church used to be at least at least at least smiled upon by a larger society, but smiled upon by a larger society, but smiled upon by a larger society, but it's been suggested that we're now in a it's been suggested that we're now in a it's been suggested that we're now in a negative world where people come to the negative world where people come to the negative world where people come to the Christian faith, the Christian church Christian faith, the Christian church Christian faith, the Christian church with a suspicion that maybe it's not with a suspicion that maybe it's not with a suspicion that maybe it's not good for society after all. Maybe it's good for society after all. Maybe it's good for society after all. Maybe it's the source of oppression, of hurt, the source of oppression, of hurt, the source of oppression, of hurt, of being burned. And so, I think there of being burned. And so, I think there of being burned. And so, I think there is a a concern now that we're losing our is a a concern now that we're losing our is a a concern now that we're losing our influence and prestige and power and influence and prestige and power and influence and prestige and power and that we're just letting civilization get that we're just letting civilization get that we're just letting civilization get away from us.

away from us. away from us. >> This is a more specific question I think >> This is a more specific question I think >> This is a more specific question I think than I was uh planning to ask, but it than I was uh planning to ask, but it than I was uh planning to ask, but it was something that came up just as we was something that came up just as we was something that came up just as we were we were talking here. were we were talking here. were we were talking here. Um part of what you're addressing here Um part of what you're addressing here Um part of what you're addressing here is Christian Smith's pervasive is Christian Smith's pervasive is Christian Smith's pervasive interpretive pluralism critique uh as interpretive pluralism critique uh as interpretive pluralism critique uh as switching from Protestant to Catholic switching from Protestant to Catholic switching from Protestant to Catholic and then making the critique of and then making the critique of and then making the critique of Protestantism. Of course, we've seen Dr. Protestantism. Of course, we've seen Dr. Protestantism. Of course, we've seen Dr. Smith recently comment about the Smith recently comment about the Smith recently comment about the challenges at Notre Dame as he stepped challenges at Notre Dame as he stepped challenges at Notre Dame as he stepped away from there as well. away from there as well. away from there as well. >> Could you perhaps talk to some >> Could you perhaps talk to some >> Could you perhaps talk to some Protestants who are exploring the Protestants who are exploring the Protestants who are exploring the Catholic tradition, seeing it as a an Catholic tradition, seeing it as a an Catholic tradition, seeing it as a an escape from that basic hermeneutical escape from that basic hermeneutical escape from that basic hermeneutical problem? Well, we say that the Bible problem? Well, we say that the Bible problem? Well, we say that the Bible first, but we can't even agree with the first, but we can't even agree with the first, but we can't even agree with the Bible says. So, this is why we need a an Bible says. So, this is why we need a an Bible says. So, this is why we need a an authoritative interpretation. Could you authoritative interpretation. Could you authoritative interpretation. Could you speak maybe to to the people thinking speak maybe to to the people thinking speak maybe to to the people thinking about that challenge and the challenges about that challenge and the challenges about that challenge and the challenges that are seen on the opposite side as that are seen on the opposite side as that are seen on the opposite side as well? well? well? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. So, I I read Christian Smith's book The So, I I read Christian Smith's book The So, I I read Christian Smith's book The Bible Made Impossible while it was still Bible Made Impossible while it was still Bible Made Impossible while it was still a manuscript. a manuscript. a manuscript. And I did suggest to him that while I And I did suggest to him that while I And I did suggest to him that while I saw the problem, I felt that he wasn't saw the problem, I felt that he wasn't saw the problem, I felt that he wasn't really doing justice to historic really doing justice to historic really doing justice to historic Protestant emphasis on Sola Scriptura.

Protestant emphasis on Sola Scriptura. Protestant emphasis on Sola Scriptura. Because the Because the Because the the Protestant reformers never meant by the Protestant reformers never meant by the Protestant reformers never meant by Sola Scriptura that every individual is Sola Scriptura that every individual is Sola Scriptura that every individual is supposed to read the Bible for him or supposed to read the Bible for him or supposed to read the Bible for him or herself. herself. herself. In context, the reformers were In context, the reformers were In context, the reformers were Catholics. That is, they were trying to Catholics. That is, they were trying to Catholics. That is, they were trying to reform the one true holy Catholic reform the one true holy Catholic reform the one true holy Catholic Apostolic Church, not start a Apostolic Church, not start a Apostolic Church, not start a smorgasbord of alternatives. And so, his smorgasbord of alternatives. And so, his smorgasbord of alternatives. And so, his book doesn't really capture that. His book doesn't really capture that. His book doesn't really capture that. His book, and he's a sociologist, so he has book, and he's a sociologist, so he has book, and he's a sociologist, so he has lots of evidence. His book is looking at lots of evidence. His book is looking at lots of evidence. His book is looking at what I think is the pathology of what I think is the pathology of what I think is the pathology of Protestantism, Protestantism, Protestantism, not not the historic true nature of not not the historic true nature of not not the historic true nature of Protestantism, which as I said, is Protestantism, which as I said, is Protestantism, which as I said, is Catholic with a small c, Catholic with a small c, Catholic with a small c, uh trying to root the church not in Rome uh trying to root the church not in Rome uh trying to root the church not in Rome so much, but in Romans, so much, but in Romans, so much, but in Romans, Paul's letter about the gospel. Paul's letter about the gospel. Paul's letter about the gospel. >> Well, it strikes me as maybe the reverse >> Well, it strikes me as maybe the reverse >> Well, it strikes me as maybe the reverse problem uh Catholics have where or problem uh Catholics have where or problem uh Catholics have where or Protestants have when they look at the Protestants have when they look at the Protestants have when they look at the Catholic Church, they're looking at Catholic Church, they're looking at Catholic Church, they're looking at what's on paper, but not on the pathos what's on paper, but not on the pathos what's on paper, but not on the pathos of what they're encountering. And of what they're encountering. And of what they're encountering. And perhaps that's what's disturbing to them perhaps that's what's disturbing to them perhaps that's what's disturbing to them when they get there to say, "Well, wait when they get there to say, "Well, wait when they get there to say, "Well, wait a minute. There's just as much a minute. There's just as much a minute. There's just as much in-fighting on that side as there was in in-fighting on that side as there was in in-fighting on that side as there was in the side that I just left." Well, on the side that I just left." Well, on the side that I just left." Well, on paper it seems to make a lot of sense.

paper it seems to make a lot of sense. paper it seems to make a lot of sense. Um Um Um Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Uh in the in the Catholic Church, there >> Uh in the in the Catholic Church, there >> Uh in the in the Catholic Church, there are different approaches. That's true. are different approaches. That's true. are different approaches. That's true. If, for example, in the 20th century, If, for example, in the 20th century, If, for example, in the 20th century, you had Karl Rahner and Hans Urs von you had Karl Rahner and Hans Urs von you had Karl Rahner and Hans Urs von Balthasar. Quite [snorts] a bit of Balthasar. Quite [snorts] a bit of Balthasar. Quite [snorts] a bit of difference, not quite Bart and Bultmann, difference, not quite Bart and Bultmann, difference, not quite Bart and Bultmann, but not quite so far away from that kind but not quite so far away from that kind but not quite so far away from that kind of contrast, either. of contrast, either. of contrast, either. Um so, it's true that the unity in on in Um so, it's true that the unity in on in Um so, it's true that the unity in on in the Roman Catholic Church is a little the Roman Catholic Church is a little the Roman Catholic Church is a little bit overdrawn. bit overdrawn. bit overdrawn. >> Yeah. Yes, yes. It That's hard to know >> Yeah. Yes, yes. It That's hard to know >> Yeah. Yes, yes. It That's hard to know cuz you tend to know your own tradition cuz you tend to know your own tradition cuz you tend to know your own tradition and the weaknesses of your own house, and the weaknesses of your own house, and the weaknesses of your own house, and then you look at the positives on and then you look at the positives on and then you look at the positives on another side. I think that's just a very another side. I think that's just a very another side. I think that's just a very human human human uh human way of thinking about things, uh human way of thinking about things, uh human way of thinking about things, but it can leave you making some maybe but it can leave you making some maybe but it can leave you making some maybe short-sighted choices. Um short-sighted choices. Um short-sighted choices. Um just going back talking about the book, just going back talking about the book, just going back talking about the book, just help us understand what it means to just help us understand what it means to just help us understand what it means to interpret the Bible spiritually. Um I interpret the Bible spiritually. Um I interpret the Bible spiritually. Um I think if you talk to a lot of uh think if you talk to a lot of uh think if you talk to a lot of uh evangelical Protestants, um they might evangelical Protestants, um they might evangelical Protestants, um they might have a good sense what they think that have a good sense what they think that have a good sense what they think that means, but I'm not sure it's the same means, but I'm not sure it's the same means, but I'm not sure it's the same thing of what you mean. Help explain, thing of what you mean. Help explain, thing of what you mean. Help explain, what does it mean to interpret the Bible what does it mean to interpret the Bible what does it mean to interpret the Bible spiritually?

spiritually? spiritually? >> Well, in the book, uh instead of >> Well, in the book, uh instead of >> Well, in the book, uh instead of spiritually, I often use the term spiritually, I often use the term spiritually, I often use the term transfiguratively or theologically, but transfiguratively or theologically, but transfiguratively or theologically, but the key thing, and it works just as well the key thing, and it works just as well the key thing, and it works just as well with spiritually, is that I want to read with spiritually, is that I want to read with spiritually, is that I want to read the Bible literally. the Bible literally. the Bible literally. Uh all theologians since Aquinas and Uh all theologians since Aquinas and Uh all theologians since Aquinas and maybe before maybe before maybe before have realized that it's the literal have realized that it's the literal have realized that it's the literal sense that has authority. And the sense that has authority. And the sense that has authority. And the concern about spiritual reading is that concern about spiritual reading is that concern about spiritual reading is that somehow the spirit is doing an injustice somehow the spirit is doing an injustice somehow the spirit is doing an injustice to the letter. Not the spirit, but to the letter. Not the spirit, but to the letter. Not the spirit, but spiritual reading is thought to be doing spiritual reading is thought to be doing spiritual reading is thought to be doing an injustice to literal interpretation. an injustice to literal interpretation. an injustice to literal interpretation. Paul says, "The letter kills, the spirit Paul says, "The letter kills, the spirit Paul says, "The letter kills, the spirit gives life." This letter-spirit tension gives life." This letter-spirit tension gives life." This letter-spirit tension that had turned into a kind of literal that had turned into a kind of literal that had turned into a kind of literal versus allegorical tension, that's been versus allegorical tension, that's been versus allegorical tension, that's been um a recurrent theme in the history of um a recurrent theme in the history of um a recurrent theme in the history of Bible reading. Bible reading. Bible reading. And so in the book, I I try to suggest And so in the book, I I try to suggest And so in the book, I I try to suggest that that that spiritual reading or transfigured spiritual reading or transfigured spiritual reading or transfigured reading or theological reading is not a reading or theological reading is not a reading or theological reading is not a distortion of the literal sense, but distortion of the literal sense, but distortion of the literal sense, but penetrating into what the literal sense penetrating into what the literal sense penetrating into what the literal sense is actually speaking about, getting is actually speaking about, getting is actually speaking about, getting beyond the surface.

beyond the surface. beyond the surface. And in a I think the main claim of the And in a I think the main claim of the And in a I think the main claim of the book really is that spiritual or book really is that spiritual or book really is that spiritual or theological interpretation does not theological interpretation does not theological interpretation does not distort the literal sense, but in seeing distort the literal sense, but in seeing distort the literal sense, but in seeing the ultimate reference to Christ the ultimate reference to Christ the ultimate reference to Christ actually glorifies the literal sense. actually glorifies the literal sense. actually glorifies the literal sense. And for me, And for me, And for me, that was the takeaway that was the takeaway that was the takeaway that when I first formulated it and saw that when I first formulated it and saw that when I first formulated it and saw it and felt the force of it, it and felt the force of it, it and felt the force of it, kind of gave me chills, you know, kind of gave me chills, you know, kind of gave me chills, you know, because it seemed like a breakthrough, because it seemed like a breakthrough, because it seemed like a breakthrough, to be honest. to be honest. to be honest. We don't We don't distort the literal We don't We don't distort the literal We don't We don't distort the literal sense when we read it Christianly sense when we read it Christianly sense when we read it Christianly for the full for the full for the full face of Jesus Christ shining through the face of Jesus Christ shining through the face of Jesus Christ shining through the text. That's a way of glorifying the text. That's a way of glorifying the text. That's a way of glorifying the letter, not distorting it. letter, not distorting it. letter, not distorting it. >> Oh, let's go a little bit deeper on >> Oh, let's go a little bit deeper on >> Oh, let's go a little bit deeper on that. Tell us more about how the that. Tell us more about how the that. Tell us more about how the transfiguration transfiguration transfiguration guides us in how to read the Bible. guides us in how to read the Bible. guides us in how to read the Bible. >> Is guide the best word? I certainly do >> Is guide the best word? I certainly do >> Is guide the best word? I certainly do draw connection between the draw connection between the draw connection between the Transfiguration of Jesus and the way we Transfiguration of Jesus and the way we Transfiguration of Jesus and the way we should read the Bible.

should read the Bible. should read the Bible. And it's because the Transfiguration is And it's because the Transfiguration is And it's because the Transfiguration is an event that an event that an event that without distorting the humanity of without distorting the humanity of without distorting the humanity of Jesus, shows us who he truly is. Jesus, shows us who he truly is. Jesus, shows us who he truly is. Light from light. The light streaming Light from light. The light streaming Light from light. The light streaming from Jesus' face from Jesus' face from Jesus' face showing [snorts] that he is by nature showing [snorts] that he is by nature showing [snorts] that he is by nature God in the flesh. God in the flesh. God in the flesh. And that that again is such an important And that that again is such an important And that that again is such an important notion. And in the same way, or at least notion. And in the same way, or at least notion. And in the same way, or at least analogously I should say, the light of analogously I should say, the light of analogously I should say, the light of Christ shines not just from his human Christ shines not just from his human Christ shines not just from his human face face face but from the biblical letter, from the but from the biblical letter, from the but from the biblical letter, from the letter of the text. If we're reading letter of the text. If we're reading letter of the text. If we're reading Christianly, ultimately, I think we have Christianly, ultimately, I think we have Christianly, ultimately, I think we have to acknowledge that what the Bible is to acknowledge that what the Bible is to acknowledge that what the Bible is finally about is Jesus. finally about is Jesus. finally about is Jesus. And And And you know, it's all my book is really all you know, it's all my book is really all you know, it's all my book is really all about reading the Bible to see Jesus. about reading the Bible to see Jesus. about reading the Bible to see Jesus. Sir, in my hermeneutics course, we would Sir, in my hermeneutics course, we would Sir, in my hermeneutics course, we would see Jesus. see Jesus. see Jesus. We we want to see the light of the We we want to see the light of the We we want to see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the knowledge of the glory of God in the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ through scripture. And face of Christ through scripture. And face of Christ through scripture. And let me just add, let me just add, let me just add, you know, when we think of Jesus asking you know, when we think of Jesus asking you know, when we think of Jesus asking hard questions, we often go to "Who do hard questions, we often go to "Who do hard questions, we often go to "Who do you say that I am?"

you say that I am?" you say that I am?" That's the Christological question. But That's the Christological question. But That's the Christological question. But I like to focus on Luke 10:26 I like to focus on Luke 10:26 I like to focus on Luke 10:26 when Jesus is confronting the Pharisees when Jesus is confronting the Pharisees when Jesus is confronting the Pharisees and he asks another hard question, and he asks another hard question, and he asks another hard question, "How do you read?" "How do you read?" "How do you read?" "How do you read?" "How do you read?" "How do you read?" And he's In context, he's asking the And he's In context, he's asking the And he's In context, he's asking the Pharisees about how they read the law. Pharisees about how they read the law. Pharisees about how they read the law. But we know what Jesus thought they But we know what Jesus thought they But we know what Jesus thought they should see when they looked at the law should see when they looked at the law should see when they looked at the law because in John 5:46 he says, "If you because in John 5:46 he says, "If you because in John 5:46 he says, "If you believed Moses, believed Moses, believed Moses, you would believe me, for Moses wrote of you would believe me, for Moses wrote of you would believe me, for Moses wrote of me. me. me. Well, we wouldn't know that unless we Well, we wouldn't know that unless we Well, we wouldn't know that unless we read in this transfigural way, unless we read in this transfigural way, unless we read in this transfigural way, unless we glorified or saw the glory hiding glorified or saw the glory hiding glorified or saw the glory hiding just under the surface of the letter. just under the surface of the letter. just under the surface of the letter. But the law was never intended to be our But the law was never intended to be our But the law was never intended to be our way to God. The law was a pedagogue with way to God. The law was a pedagogue with way to God. The law was a pedagogue with a guide to direct us to Christ. So, I a guide to direct us to Christ. So, I a guide to direct us to Christ. So, I think the transfiguration for me is um think the transfiguration for me is um think the transfiguration for me is um an analogy and a and a reminder that at an analogy and a and a reminder that at an analogy and a and a reminder that at the end of the day the end of the day the end of the day it's all about uh the glorification of it's all about uh the glorification of it's all about uh the glorification of Jesus and reading the words of the Bible Jesus and reading the words of the Bible Jesus and reading the words of the Bible in this in this in this glorification way this that makes them glorification way this that makes them glorification way this that makes them um glorified.

um glorified. um glorified. >> Is this also then your effort to try to >> Is this also then your effort to try to >> Is this also then your effort to try to help help help bridge this divide where people seem to bridge this divide where people seem to bridge this divide where people seem to want to pit Jesus against the Bible? want to pit Jesus against the Bible? want to pit Jesus against the Bible? And that can seem to go in both And that can seem to go in both And that can seem to go in both different directions. There seems to be different directions. There seems to be different directions. There seems to be an awkward arrangement where some people an awkward arrangement where some people an awkward arrangement where some people say, "Well, I'm really following Jesus say, "Well, I'm really following Jesus say, "Well, I'm really following Jesus and therefore the Bible is subservient and therefore the Bible is subservient and therefore the Bible is subservient to that." Or somebody say, "No, I'm to that." Or somebody say, "No, I'm to that." Or somebody say, "No, I'm trying to represent the whole Bible as a trying to represent the whole Bible as a trying to represent the whole Bible as a counter argument there." Is that part of counter argument there." Is that part of counter argument there." Is that part of what you're trying to help us avoid as what you're trying to help us avoid as what you're trying to help us avoid as well? well? well? >> It wasn't the main idea, but I have >> It wasn't the main idea, but I have >> It wasn't the main idea, but I have heard this argument too many times that heard this argument too many times that heard this argument too many times that somehow we pit Christology against somehow we pit Christology against somehow we pit Christology against bibliology. bibliology. bibliology. And that just strikes me as being wrong. And that just strikes me as being wrong. And that just strikes me as being wrong. If we're following the way the biblical If we're following the way the biblical If we're following the way the biblical words go, if we're being biblical words go, if we're being biblical words go, if we're being biblical we'll get to Jesus. we'll get to Jesus. we'll get to Jesus. And And And uh uh uh and not only will we get to Jesus, if we and not only will we get to Jesus, if we and not only will we get to Jesus, if we really follow the way the words go, really follow the way the words go, really follow the way the words go, attend to what's being said, absorb the attend to what's being said, absorb the attend to what's being said, absorb the testimony and believe it in faith testimony and believe it in faith testimony and believe it in faith we begin to become like Jesus.

we begin to become like Jesus. we begin to become like Jesus. Uh and that's striking to me. And here's Uh and that's striking to me. And here's Uh and that's striking to me. And here's another connection to the another connection to the another connection to the transfiguration, by the way. transfiguration, by the way. transfiguration, by the way. Um Um Um I I I I I I spend quite a bit of time in 2 spend quite a bit of time in 2 spend quite a bit of time in 2 Corinthians 3 and 4. And in 2 Corinthians 3 and 4. And in 2 Corinthians 3 and 4. And in 2 Corinthians 3:18, Paul says that if we Corinthians 3:18, Paul says that if we Corinthians 3:18, Paul says that if we read the scriptures, the law, and the read the scriptures, the law, and the read the scriptures, the law, and the prophets, and so on, with unveiled prophets, and so on, with unveiled prophets, and so on, with unveiled faces, faces, faces, we'll begin to reflect the Lord's glory. we'll begin to reflect the Lord's glory. we'll begin to reflect the Lord's glory. And he says we're being transformed And he says we're being transformed And he says we're being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing into his likeness with ever-increasing into his likeness with ever-increasing glory. glory. glory. Through reading scripture, we're being Through reading scripture, we're being Through reading scripture, we're being transformed into his likeness. What transformed into his likeness. What transformed into his likeness. What strikes me about that verse strikes me about that verse strikes me about that verse is the word for transformed is the word for transformed is the word for transformed is metamorphoo, is metamorphoo, is metamorphoo, the same word that occurs in two the same word that occurs in two the same word that occurs in two instances describing Jesus' instances describing Jesus' instances describing Jesus' transfiguration. transfiguration. transfiguration. So, there's another strong connection, I So, there's another strong connection, I So, there's another strong connection, I think, between Jesus' transfiguration think, between Jesus' transfiguration think, between Jesus' transfiguration and our reading of scripture. If we read and our reading of scripture. If we read and our reading of scripture. If we read the scripture, if we read as Christians the scripture, if we read as Christians the scripture, if we read as Christians with unveiled faces, we'll participate with unveiled faces, we'll participate with unveiled faces, we'll participate in Jesus' own transfiguration.

in Jesus' own transfiguration. in Jesus' own transfiguration. That's a I think that's a strong That's a I think that's a strong That's a I think that's a strong connection. connection. connection. Um Um Um you know, you know, you know, >> uh talking here with Kevin Vanhoozer >> uh talking here with Kevin Vanhoozer >> uh talking here with Kevin Vanhoozer about Mere Christian Hermeneutics, about Mere Christian Hermeneutics, about Mere Christian Hermeneutics, transfiguring what it means to read the transfiguring what it means to read the transfiguring what it means to read the Bible theologically. Um you know, Kevin, Bible theologically. Um you know, Kevin, Bible theologically. Um you know, Kevin, I don't get too much criticism in this I don't get too much criticism in this I don't get too much criticism in this podcast for being overly popular or just podcast for being overly popular or just podcast for being overly popular or just catering to the whims of the viewers. catering to the whims of the viewers. catering to the whims of the viewers. But just in case anybody out there is But just in case anybody out there is But just in case anybody out there is wondering and thinking that I do, I'm wondering and thinking that I do, I'm wondering and thinking that I do, I'm going to ask about Oecolampadius, who I going to ask about Oecolampadius, who I going to ask about Oecolampadius, who I didn't know anything about until didn't know anything about until didn't know anything about until studying at Trinity. And then read a studying at Trinity. And then read a studying at Trinity. And then read a whole book on Oecolampadius for one of whole book on Oecolampadius for one of whole book on Oecolampadius for one of my upper-level classes. But uh you my upper-level classes. But uh you my upper-level classes. But uh you identify him as your Mere Christian identify him as your Mere Christian identify him as your Mere Christian Hermeneutical Patron Saint. Probably a Hermeneutical Patron Saint. Probably a Hermeneutical Patron Saint. Probably a lot of people out there they're not lot of people out there they're not lot of people out there they're not familiar with this early familiar with this early familiar with this early first-generation reformer who had a an first-generation reformer who had a an first-generation reformer who had a an amazing influence, but just is amazing influence, but just is amazing influence, but just is overlooked from for all the Bullingers overlooked from for all the Bullingers overlooked from for all the Bullingers and Butzers and Luthers and obviously and Butzers and Luthers and obviously and Butzers and Luthers and obviously later Calvin and and others. But later Calvin and and others. But later Calvin and and others. But help us tell a little bit more about help us tell a little bit more about help us tell a little bit more about what you see in Oecolampadius and how he what you see in Oecolampadius and how he what you see in Oecolampadius and how he helped inspire you on this project.

helped inspire you on this project. helped inspire you on this project. >> So, there are a lot of Protestants that >> So, there are a lot of Protestants that >> So, there are a lot of Protestants that I wanted to look to, but I like his name I wanted to look to, but I like his name I wanted to look to, but I like his name because it means house lamp. because it means house lamp. because it means house lamp. And so the I like things like that. Even And so the I like things like that. Even And so the I like things like that. Even if I didn't make a big fuss about it in if I didn't make a big fuss about it in if I didn't make a big fuss about it in the book, it pleased me on one level the book, it pleased me on one level the book, it pleased me on one level that to some extent his name reflects that to some extent his name reflects that to some extent his name reflects the nature of what he's writing about. the nature of what he's writing about. the nature of what he's writing about. Uh the way that scripture lights our Uh the way that scripture lights our Uh the way that scripture lights our path. path. path. Uh but he is known for with many of the Uh but he is known for with many of the Uh but he is known for with many of the reformers as being concerned to reformers as being concerned to reformers as being concerned to articulate the scopos, the main subject articulate the scopos, the main subject articulate the scopos, the main subject matter of scripture. And he thought that matter of scripture. And he thought that matter of scripture. And he thought that if you're going to be a reader of if you're going to be a reader of if you're going to be a reader of scripture, you have to know scripture, you have to know scripture, you have to know basically what this book is about. That basically what this book is about. That basically what this book is about. That knowing that ultimate reference or knowing that ultimate reference or knowing that ultimate reference or subject matter is a is a guide to subject matter is a is a guide to subject matter is a is a guide to reading the parts. And so what helps me reading the parts. And so what helps me reading the parts. And so what helps me in his writings, and this was in part I in his writings, and this was in part I in his writings, and this was in part I was helped by a doctoral dissertation on was helped by a doctoral dissertation on was helped by a doctoral dissertation on him that focuses on this point, was the him that focuses on this point, was the him that focuses on this point, was the idea that the scopos of scripture is idea that the scopos of scripture is idea that the scopos of scripture is christoscopic.

christoscopic. christoscopic. That is That is That is Christ is really the ultimate subject Christ is really the ultimate subject Christ is really the ultimate subject matter behind all of the scripture. And matter behind all of the scripture. And matter behind all of the scripture. And he did not mean that we should you know he did not mean that we should you know he did not mean that we should you know search Christ in every detail of the search Christ in every detail of the search Christ in every detail of the text. He's really reminding us it's the text. He's really reminding us it's the text. He's really reminding us it's the big picture that we have to keep in big picture that we have to keep in big picture that we have to keep in mind. mind. mind. And I just found that's that's very And I just found that's that's very And I just found that's that's very helpful. Scopos has always been helpful. Scopos has always been helpful. Scopos has always been important in biblical interpretation. important in biblical interpretation. important in biblical interpretation. But I think we've lost sight of it But I think we've lost sight of it But I think we've lost sight of it because we become because we become because we become I was maybe sometimes too detail I was maybe sometimes too detail I was maybe sometimes too detail focused, sometimes too focused in trying focused, sometimes too focused in trying focused, sometimes too focused in trying to find something in a verse that will to find something in a verse that will to find something in a verse that will help us directly in our Christian life. help us directly in our Christian life. help us directly in our Christian life. but I think everything in the Bible, but I think everything in the Bible, but I think everything in the Bible, law, prophets, writings, law, prophets, writings, law, prophets, writings, is given to us to prepare the way for is given to us to prepare the way for is given to us to prepare the way for Jesus, a little bit like John the Jesus, a little bit like John the Jesus, a little bit like John the Baptist. Baptist. Baptist. Without the prophet Without the prophet Without the prophet the prophets, the law, and the writings, the prophets, the law, and the writings, the prophets, the law, and the writings, we would not grasp who Jesus said he we would not grasp who Jesus said he we would not grasp who Jesus said he was, we wouldn't understand what he did, was, we wouldn't understand what he did, was, we wouldn't understand what he did, and how he is the fulfillment and how he is the fulfillment and how he is the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, to Abraham, of God's promises to Israel, to Abraham, of God's promises to Israel, to Abraham, and so on. So, and so on. So, and so on. So, that's a lot to put on him, but that's a lot to put on him, but that's a lot to put on him, but basically, he just is there in the book basically, he just is there in the book basically, he just is there in the book because he reminds us that because he reminds us that because he reminds us that we must never forget that the main we must never forget that the main we must never forget that the main subject matter of scripture is Christ.

subject matter of scripture is Christ. subject matter of scripture is Christ. And he makes that point in a in a And he makes that point in a in a And he makes that point in a in a different way, and long before Karl different way, and long before Karl different way, and long before Karl Barth did. Barth did. Barth did. >> Uh you write in the book, "What the >> Uh you write in the book, "What the >> Uh you write in the book, "What the church needs now is disciplinary church needs now is disciplinary church needs now is disciplinary integration, not segregation. integration, not segregation. integration, not segregation. Interpreters of the word unite." Interpreters of the word unite." Interpreters of the word unite." Um do you have hope that biblical Um do you have hope that biblical Um do you have hope that biblical scholars and theologians might be able scholars and theologians might be able scholars and theologians might be able to collaborate more closely for the good to collaborate more closely for the good to collaborate more closely for the good of the church? And a lot of people of the church? And a lot of people of the church? And a lot of people watching and listening to this may not watching and listening to this may not watching and listening to this may not even recognize that they don't even recognize that they don't even recognize that they don't necessarily collaborate very well, or necessarily collaborate very well, or necessarily collaborate very well, or understand why they wouldn't collaborate understand why they wouldn't collaborate understand why they wouldn't collaborate well. So, give us a little bit of that well. So, give us a little bit of that well. So, give us a little bit of that background. background. background. >> Uh you're right. When I talked in >> Uh you're right. When I talked in >> Uh you're right. When I talked in churches to lay people, they're stunned churches to lay people, they're stunned churches to lay people, they're stunned to hear that there may be any kind of to hear that there may be any kind of to hear that there may be any kind of conflict or contrast between what conflict or contrast between what conflict or contrast between what biblical exegetes do and what biblical exegetes do and what biblical exegetes do and what theologians do. However, if you've been theologians do. However, if you've been theologians do. However, if you've been a seminary student, a seminary student, a seminary student, and you've taken biblical studies and you've taken biblical studies and you've taken biblical studies classes, and then theology classes, classes, and then theology classes, classes, and then theology classes, you'll realize that there is uh a you'll realize that there is uh a you'll realize that there is uh a different approach to doing these different approach to doing these different approach to doing these disciplines.

disciplines. disciplines. I do not want to tar I do not want to tar I do not want to tar either discipline with this distinction, either discipline with this distinction, either discipline with this distinction, but I think a helpful, easy way of but I think a helpful, easy way of but I think a helpful, easy way of grasping what's at stake is using um a grasping what's at stake is using um a grasping what's at stake is using um a distinction C.S. Lewis draws in his distinction C.S. Lewis draws in his distinction C.S. Lewis draws in his little essay, Meditations in a Tool little essay, Meditations in a Tool little essay, Meditations in a Tool Shed, Shed, Shed, where he contrasts looking at a beam of where he contrasts looking at a beam of where he contrasts looking at a beam of light light light uh with standing in the beam of light uh with standing in the beam of light uh with standing in the beam of light and looking along it. and looking along it. and looking along it. And I think that is a interesting And I think that is a interesting And I think that is a interesting contrast. In the academy, biblical contrast. In the academy, biblical contrast. In the academy, biblical studies has become a species of looking studies has become a species of looking studies has become a species of looking at. at. at. Biblical scholars in the academy are Biblical scholars in the academy are Biblical scholars in the academy are always concerned to keep a critical always concerned to keep a critical always concerned to keep a critical distance. distance. distance. If you step into the light If you step into the light If you step into the light and look along it, that's like having and look along it, that's like having and look along it, that's like having faith. And it's like inhabiting the faith. And it's like inhabiting the faith. And it's like inhabiting the light. And in the academy, light. And in the academy, light. And in the academy, uh uh uh you know, biblical studies does not you know, biblical studies does not you know, biblical studies does not require faith. require faith. require faith. It's a historical descriptive It's a historical descriptive It's a historical descriptive enterprise. enterprise. enterprise. And a lot follows from these two And a lot follows from these two And a lot follows from these two prepositions, looking at, looking along prepositions, looking at, looking along prepositions, looking at, looking along these this these two ways of looking at these this these two ways of looking at these this these two ways of looking at or getting involved in light.

or getting involved in light. or getting involved in light. Uh Uh Uh and again, I don't want to say that and again, I don't want to say that and again, I don't want to say that theology always wins because it's theology always wins because it's theology always wins because it's looking along. I think many exegesis are looking along. I think many exegesis are looking along. I think many exegesis are beginning to do that in biblical beginning to do that in biblical beginning to do that in biblical theology, for example. theology, for example. theology, for example. But historically, But historically, But historically, there is that distinction that has there is that distinction that has there is that distinction that has I think characterized scholastic reading I think characterized scholastic reading I think characterized scholastic reading in the medieval period from monastic in the medieval period from monastic in the medieval period from monastic reading, different ways of inhabiting. reading, different ways of inhabiting. reading, different ways of inhabiting. And this is what I mean that by And this is what I mean that by And this is what I mean that by different reading cultures. different reading cultures. different reading cultures. If you're If you're If you're if you're enculturated into the world of if you're enculturated into the world of if you're enculturated into the world of biblical studies, biblical studies, biblical studies, you'll learn different values, you'll learn different values, you'll learn different values, priorities, and methods. priorities, and methods. priorities, and methods. And if you're enculturated into the And if you're enculturated into the And if you're enculturated into the world of systematic theology, well, world of systematic theology, well, world of systematic theology, well, uh worst-case scenario, you may not even uh worst-case scenario, you may not even uh worst-case scenario, you may not even be interested in the biblical text. You be interested in the biblical text. You be interested in the biblical text. You may turn to philosophy. So, in my book, may turn to philosophy. So, in my book, may turn to philosophy. So, in my book, I try to teach or treat each of these I try to teach or treat each of these I try to teach or treat each of these disciplines equally, disciplines equally, disciplines equally, fairly, fairly, fairly, but a word of warning for each of them but a word of warning for each of them but a word of warning for each of them because each of them can go wrong in because each of them can go wrong in because each of them can go wrong in their own way.

their own way. their own way. >> There's another claim in the book that I >> There's another claim in the book that I >> There's another claim in the book that I didn't just underline, but I starred it didn't just underline, but I starred it didn't just underline, but I starred it as well. It's a big claim. Uh Kant's as well. It's a big claim. Uh Kant's as well. It's a big claim. Uh Kant's Copernican Revolution matters because it Copernican Revolution matters because it Copernican Revolution matters because it is the epitome of critical thinking, the is the epitome of critical thinking, the is the epitome of critical thinking, the impetus of the secular social imaginary, impetus of the secular social imaginary, impetus of the secular social imaginary, and the foundation of biblical and the foundation of biblical and the foundation of biblical criticism. criticism. criticism. It's a lot going on there. Why don't you It's a lot going on there. Why don't you It's a lot going on there. Why don't you explain a little bit of that revolution? explain a little bit of that revolution? explain a little bit of that revolution? >> So, this isn't just me. Here, I think a >> So, this isn't just me. Here, I think a >> So, this isn't just me. Here, I think a lot of scholars would agree. I'm lot of scholars would agree. I'm lot of scholars would agree. I'm thinking particularly of Michael thinking particularly of Michael thinking particularly of Michael Legaspi. Legaspi. Legaspi. He wrote something entitled like I think He wrote something entitled like I think He wrote something entitled like I think this is right. Uh the death of scripture this is right. Uh the death of scripture this is right. Uh the death of scripture and the birth of and the birth of and the birth of the academic Bible, something along the academic Bible, something along the academic Bible, something along those lines. But, the idea is those lines. But, the idea is those lines. But, the idea is in modernity, in modernity, in modernity, uh Kant, who actually [snorts] uh Kant, who actually [snorts] uh Kant, who actually [snorts] had the manifesto of what it means to be had the manifesto of what it means to be had the manifesto of what it means to be an enlightened critical thinker, says, an enlightened critical thinker, says, an enlightened critical thinker, says, "A critical thinker must take nothing on "A critical thinker must take nothing on "A critical thinker must take nothing on authority or tradition. You have to authority or tradition. You have to authority or tradition. You have to examine everything for yourself." He's a examine everything for yourself." He's a examine everything for yourself." He's a prime example of what it means to look prime example of what it means to look prime example of what it means to look at.

at. at. And to have a critical mind is to be And to have a critical mind is to be And to have a critical mind is to be suspicious of appearances. suspicious of appearances. suspicious of appearances. And in modern biblical studies, that's And in modern biblical studies, that's And in modern biblical studies, that's what's happened. what's happened. what's happened. Biblical scholars have been suspicious Biblical scholars have been suspicious Biblical scholars have been suspicious of biblical appearances. of biblical appearances. of biblical appearances. So, Genesis 1 appears to say the Bible So, Genesis 1 appears to say the Bible So, Genesis 1 appears to say the Bible was or that the world was created in 6 was or that the world was created in 6 was or that the world was created in 6 days, but the critic asks, "What really days, but the critic asks, "What really days, but the critic asks, "What really happened?" That's the appearance. What's happened?" That's the appearance. What's happened?" That's the appearance. What's the reality? And that little critical the reality? And that little critical the reality? And that little critical gap between appearance and reality, gap between appearance and reality, gap between appearance and reality, that's characteristic of the modern that's characteristic of the modern that's characteristic of the modern mind. mind. mind. That the modern mind will not accept the That the modern mind will not accept the That the modern mind will not accept the appearance as reality, will not trust appearance as reality, will not trust appearance as reality, will not trust the appearance as reality without the appearance as reality without the appearance as reality without critically and independently providing critically and independently providing critically and independently providing corroboration for the claim. corroboration for the claim. corroboration for the claim. So, So, So, that it is a big thing and it and it's that it is a big thing and it and it's that it is a big thing and it and it's and um affected and um affected and um affected everyone in the modern world. You know, everyone in the modern world. You know, everyone in the modern world. You know, we're we're we're we're more critical, we're more we're more critical, we're more we're more critical, we're more distrustful, we want evidence, we're we distrustful, we want evidence, we're we distrustful, we want evidence, we're we look to science as the paradigm of what look to science as the paradigm of what look to science as the paradigm of what it means to be rational. And so, to it means to be rational. And so, to it means to be rational. And so, to stand in the beam and look a li- look a stand in the beam and look a li- look a stand in the beam and look a li- look a along it, along it, along it, some might say that's a matter of some might say that's a matter of some might say that's a matter of sacrificing your intellect. Augustine sacrificing your intellect. Augustine sacrificing your intellect. Augustine would say, "No, it's a matter of would say, "No, it's a matter of would say, "No, it's a matter of believing in order to understand."

believing in order to understand." believing in order to understand." >> Oh, that's very very helpful. Are there >> Oh, that's very very helpful. Are there >> Oh, that's very very helpful. Are there other ways that other ways that other ways that you would suggest that we're reading and you would suggest that we're reading and you would suggest that we're reading and interpreting our Bibles in ways that we interpreting our Bibles in ways that we interpreting our Bibles in ways that we don't recognize as unique to our modern don't recognize as unique to our modern don't recognize as unique to our modern era? era? era? >> There was a couple of negatives there. >> There was a couple of negatives there. >> There was a couple of negatives there. You had a double negative ways. You had a double negative ways. You had a double negative ways. >> we don't we think we're just reading the >> we don't we think we're just reading the >> we don't we think we're just reading the Bible Bible Bible >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> and we don't recognize this is unique. >> and we don't recognize this is unique. >> and we don't recognize this is unique. Where we read the Bible this way, they Where we read the Bible this way, they Where we read the Bible this way, they didn't read the Bible that way before didn't read the Bible that way before didn't read the Bible that way before the modern era, post-Kantian, the modern era, post-Kantian, the modern era, post-Kantian, essentially. essentially. essentially. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um Um Um so, there've always been people who uh so, there've always been people who uh so, there've always been people who uh asked critical questions. I mean, asked critical questions. I mean, asked critical questions. I mean, Augustine in his reading of Genesis had Augustine in his reading of Genesis had Augustine in his reading of Genesis had all sorts of questions about what the all sorts of questions about what the all sorts of questions about what the text really meant. So, it wasn't as text really meant. So, it wasn't as text really meant. So, it wasn't as though he gave up his mind, but we though he gave up his mind, but we though he gave up his mind, but we moderns tend to ask a different kind of moderns tend to ask a different kind of moderns tend to ask a different kind of question. question. question. Um Um Um and and and you know, as I said about reading you know, as I said about reading you know, as I said about reading cultures, we've all been taught to ask cultures, we've all been taught to ask cultures, we've all been taught to ask certain kinds of questions. So, for certain kinds of questions. So, for certain kinds of questions. So, for example, today um example, today um example, today um you know, after Karl Marx, you know, after Karl Marx, you know, after Karl Marx, one question that some people will ask one question that some people will ask one question that some people will ask is, "What is the effect of this text on is, "What is the effect of this text on is, "What is the effect of this text on human society. Uh human liberation. Is human society. Uh human liberation. Is human society. Uh human liberation. Is this going to free human beings to read this going to free human beings to read this going to free human beings to read it in this way?

it in this way? it in this way? And or maybe oppress them in some way. And or maybe oppress them in some way. And or maybe oppress them in some way. And so, And so, And so, ideological criticism asks the question, ideological criticism asks the question, ideological criticism asks the question, what in whose interest is reading the what in whose interest is reading the what in whose interest is reading the Bible this way? Whose interest, whose Bible this way? Whose interest, whose Bible this way? Whose interest, whose power interest does this way of reading power interest does this way of reading power interest does this way of reading serve? serve? serve? And that's the postmodern question. And that's the postmodern question. And that's the postmodern question. Not Not simply asking about the Not Not simply asking about the Not Not simply asking about the difference between appearance and difference between appearance and difference between appearance and reality, but asking in whose power reality, but asking in whose power reality, but asking in whose power interest is this particular text or this interest is this particular text or this interest is this particular text or this particular way of reading? And so, the particular way of reading? And so, the particular way of reading? And so, the whole process of biblical interpretation whole process of biblical interpretation whole process of biblical interpretation has become politicized. has become politicized. has become politicized. But you asked, what are we not aware of? But you asked, what are we not aware of? But you asked, what are we not aware of? We're probably not aware of the We're probably not aware of the We're probably not aware of the presuppositions we bring to the text. presuppositions we bring to the text. presuppositions we bring to the text. That is, That is, That is, what are we assuming about God, the what are we assuming about God, the what are we assuming about God, the world, ourselves, the Bible, Jesus? world, ourselves, the Bible, Jesus? world, ourselves, the Bible, Jesus? And And And I think we need to be very honest about I think we need to be very honest about I think we need to be very honest about what it is that we bring to the text.

what it is that we bring to the text. what it is that we bring to the text. And I think we need to become good And I think we need to become good And I think we need to become good listeners because I want to understand listeners because I want to understand listeners because I want to understand the text, stand under its authority. I the text, stand under its authority. I the text, stand under its authority. I don't want to overstand the text and don't want to overstand the text and don't want to overstand the text and make it address agendas that are mine make it address agendas that are mine make it address agendas that are mine rather than the authors of scripture rather than the authors of scripture rather than the authors of scripture themselves. themselves. themselves. >> Um now, I don't was thinking about this >> Um now, I don't was thinking about this >> Um now, I don't was thinking about this as I prepared for this interview. I as I prepared for this interview. I as I prepared for this interview. I don't remember all the seminary classes don't remember all the seminary classes don't remember all the seminary classes uh at Trinity Evangelical Divinity uh at Trinity Evangelical Divinity uh at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School where I got my best grades, School where I got my best grades, School where I got my best grades, but I do remember the seminary class but I do remember the seminary class but I do remember the seminary class where I got my worst grade. where I got my worst grade. where I got my worst grade. >> Uh-oh. >> Uh-oh. >> Uh-oh. >> And that was theology three, your >> And that was theology three, your >> And that was theology three, your systematic theology class. systematic theology class. systematic theology class. Um what will you miss most about Trinity Um what will you miss most about Trinity Um what will you miss most about Trinity Evangelical Divinity School with the Evangelical Divinity School with the Evangelical Divinity School with the close of the Deerfield campus and then close of the Deerfield campus and then close of the Deerfield campus and then your move to Wheaton College? your move to Wheaton College? your move to Wheaton College? >> Well, you know, I will miss that >> Well, you know, I will miss that >> Well, you know, I will miss that theology course sequence. Not not theology course sequence. Not not theology course sequence. Not not because I enjoy assigning grades other because I enjoy assigning grades other because I enjoy assigning grades other than A's. That's what happened. I don't than A's. That's what happened. I don't than A's. That's what happened. I don't know. know. know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But I miss I just miss getting pastors >> But I miss I just miss getting pastors >> But I miss I just miss getting pastors excited about and competent in the excited about and competent in the excited about and competent in the project of systematic theology, which is project of systematic theology, which is project of systematic theology, which is I would want to say simply answering the I would want to say simply answering the I would want to say simply answering the questions that reading the Bible raises.

questions that reading the Bible raises. questions that reading the Bible raises. Right? I don't impose Right? I don't impose Right? I don't impose uh, you know, a framework onto the uh, you know, a framework onto the uh, you know, a framework onto the scriptures. I'm trying to respond to the scriptures. I'm trying to respond to the scriptures. I'm trying to respond to the questions that naturally arise from a questions that naturally arise from a questions that naturally arise from a careful reading. careful reading. careful reading. And I do get excited about the And I do get excited about the And I do get excited about the connections between different doctrines connections between different doctrines connections between different doctrines that one can see that one can see that one can see an organic unity of truth emerge, a an organic unity of truth emerge, a an organic unity of truth emerge, a different way of thinking about God, the different way of thinking about God, the different way of thinking about God, the world, and ourselves that's coherent and world, and ourselves that's coherent and world, and ourselves that's coherent and countercultural countercultural countercultural always uh, calling for some kind of always uh, calling for some kind of always uh, calling for some kind of reform but but essentially reform but but essentially reform but but essentially the best news that can be heard about the best news that can be heard about the best news that can be heard about reality. reality. reality. That the one who created things in the That the one who created things in the That the one who created things in the first place is recreating things in first place is recreating things in first place is recreating things in Christ through the Spirit. Just that Christ through the Spirit. Just that Christ through the Spirit. Just that that is the big systematic truth as it that is the big systematic truth as it that is the big systematic truth as it were were were that is in scripture. God is active and that is in scripture. God is active and that is in scripture. God is active and he is actively doing things to redeem. he is actively doing things to redeem. he is actively doing things to redeem. So, this is good news and it's deep. And So, this is good news and it's deep. And So, this is good news and it's deep. And we don't always see everything if we we don't always see everything if we we don't always see everything if we just skim the surface of scripture. And just skim the surface of scripture. And just skim the surface of scripture. And systematic theology is simply the systematic theology is simply the systematic theology is simply the discipline that takes the time to answer discipline that takes the time to answer discipline that takes the time to answer the questions that scripture itself the questions that scripture itself the questions that scripture itself raises.

raises. raises. I'll miss going through that whole I'll miss going through that whole I'll miss going through that whole series of questions with people who are series of questions with people who are series of questions with people who are preparing to be pastors. Well, I don't preparing to be pastors. Well, I don't preparing to be pastors. Well, I don't think I'd be leading a center for think I'd be leading a center for think I'd be leading a center for cultural apologetics or teaching pastors cultural apologetics or teaching pastors cultural apologetics or teaching pastors here at Beeson Divinity School who are here at Beeson Divinity School who are here at Beeson Divinity School who are preparing for ministry in cultural preparing for ministry in cultural preparing for ministry in cultural apologetics if I hadn't taken your apologetics if I hadn't taken your apologetics if I hadn't taken your course on cultural hermeneutics. course on cultural hermeneutics. course on cultural hermeneutics. >> Ah, yes. >> Ah, yes. >> Ah, yes. >> Now, you hadn't taught it in quite a >> Now, you hadn't taught it in quite a >> Now, you hadn't taught it in quite a while, right? Maybe at least a decade or while, right? Maybe at least a decade or while, right? Maybe at least a decade or so. so. so. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, but I can remember even the Well, I >> Um, but I can remember even the Well, I >> Um, but I can remember even the Well, I guess this is appropriate because my guess this is appropriate because my guess this is appropriate because my paper was on a theology of place and I paper was on a theology of place and I paper was on a theology of place and I can remember the place can remember the place can remember the place where we had the in the time of year and where we had the in the time of year and where we had the in the time of year and everything where we had that class. everything where we had that class. everything where we had that class. Um, but I'm wondering how you've seen Um, but I'm wondering how you've seen Um, but I'm wondering how you've seen that discipline of cultural hermeneutics that discipline of cultural hermeneutics that discipline of cultural hermeneutics evolve [snorts] evolve [snorts] evolve [snorts] during your academic career. I I think during your academic career. I I think during your academic career. I I think maybe people don't recognize maybe people don't recognize maybe people don't recognize how few people were doing that kind of how few people were doing that kind of how few people were doing that kind of work work work back when you were teaching. back when you were teaching. back when you were teaching. >> Yeah, I remember that when I first >> Yeah, I remember that when I first >> Yeah, I remember that when I first started teaching at Trinity, culture was started teaching at Trinity, culture was started teaching at Trinity, culture was only mentioned when it had to do with a only mentioned when it had to do with a only mentioned when it had to do with a country other than the United States. In country other than the United States. In country other than the United States. In other words, we didn't have a culture, other words, we didn't have a culture, other words, we didn't have a culture, they had cultures. So, I'm very pleased they had cultures. So, I'm very pleased they had cultures. So, I'm very pleased that by the time I left Trinity, that by the time I left Trinity, that by the time I left Trinity, the students and the professors all knew the students and the professors all knew the students and the professors all knew that we had to get busy exegiting our that we had to get busy exegiting our that we had to get busy exegiting our culture and not just foreign cultures.

culture and not just foreign cultures. culture and not just foreign cultures. And I think we're aware that culture And I think we're aware that culture And I think we're aware that culture is a force of spiritual formation. I'm is a force of spiritual formation. I'm is a force of spiritual formation. I'm very concerned about that. I I I like to very concerned about that. I I I like to very concerned about that. I I I like to say that I don't like to say, I have to say that I don't like to say, I have to say that I don't like to say, I have to say that culture is the most powerful say that culture is the most powerful say that culture is the most powerful means of spiritual formation means of spiritual formation means of spiritual formation second only to the spirit working in the second only to the spirit working in the second only to the spirit working in the church. church. church. But that's that is that is a quite a But that's that is that is a quite a But that's that is that is a quite a claim, right? And the point is claim, right? And the point is claim, right? And the point is everyone is being spiritually formed. everyone is being spiritually formed. everyone is being spiritually formed. The only question is what kind of The only question is what kind of The only question is what kind of spirits his contemporary culture spirits his contemporary culture spirits his contemporary culture forming. So, pastors have to know their forming. So, pastors have to know their forming. So, pastors have to know their culture in order to make sure culture in order to make sure culture in order to make sure that they're pursuing the project of that they're pursuing the project of that they're pursuing the project of making their congregations more and more making their congregations more and more making their congregations more and more like Christ because there's a lot of like Christ because there's a lot of like Christ because there's a lot of energy and money energy and money energy and money being spent being spent being spent trying to form our spirits in other trying to form our spirits in other trying to form our spirits in other directions. First thing I have my directions. First thing I have my directions. First thing I have my students do is just write a personal students do is just write a personal students do is just write a personal narrative thinking about themselves as narrative thinking about themselves as narrative thinking about themselves as if they were from the outside meaning as if they were from the outside meaning as if they were from the outside meaning as if they were going into a foreign if they were going into a foreign if they were going into a foreign culture. In missiology, we've had to do culture. In missiology, we've had to do culture. In missiology, we've had to do this for a long time. You you have to this for a long time. You you have to this for a long time. You you have to assess assess assess what do I what do I see as essential to what do I what do I see as essential to what do I what do I see as essential to my Christian faith that I'm going to my Christian faith that I'm going to my Christian faith that I'm going to bring across? What do I see as bring across? What do I see as bring across? What do I see as that could go either way. It's I care that could go either way. It's I care that could go either way. It's I care about this, but I'm not going to force about this, but I'm not going to force about this, but I'm not going to force everybody else to care about it. And everybody else to care about it. And everybody else to care about it. And what do you have to drop? What's the what do you have to drop? What's the what do you have to drop? What's the baggage that you need to leave behind?

baggage that you need to leave behind? baggage that you need to leave behind? We've known for quite a while we needed We've known for quite a while we needed We've known for quite a while we needed to do that in missiology. Um thanks to to do that in missiology. Um thanks to to do that in missiology. Um thanks to you and others we recognize more now you and others we recognize more now you and others we recognize more now that we need to do it in our home host that we need to do it in our home host that we need to do it in our home host culture. culture. culture. But still the students that I run into, But still the students that I run into, But still the students that I run into, they are very rewarded with the exercise they are very rewarded with the exercise they are very rewarded with the exercise because I've never taken that time. because I've never taken that time. because I've never taken that time. They've never taken that time to process They've never taken that time to process They've never taken that time to process through their home churches, their through their home churches, their through their home churches, their families, what kind of reading culture families, what kind of reading culture families, what kind of reading culture they've inhabited. Um but hopefully by they've inhabited. Um but hopefully by they've inhabited. Um but hopefully by the end of the course they're able to the end of the course they're able to the end of the course they're able to see that and become and ultimately see that and become and ultimately see that and become and ultimately become more effective Bible interpreters become more effective Bible interpreters become more effective Bible interpreters and then also teachers who can teach and then also teachers who can teach and then also teachers who can teach across cultures um including the various across cultures um including the various across cultures um including the various cultures that make up the United States. cultures that make up the United States. cultures that make up the United States. So, you played a big role in helping me So, you played a big role in helping me So, you played a big role in helping me with that. with that. with that. >> Well, but thank you for your service >> Well, but thank you for your service >> Well, but thank you for your service because I just to answer your question, because I just to answer your question, because I just to answer your question, I've been very encouraged to see that I've been very encouraged to see that I've been very encouraged to see that now culture is very much a part of the now culture is very much a part of the now culture is very much a part of the on the radar of those who are involved on the radar of those who are involved on the radar of those who are involved in theological education. It really has in theological education. It really has in theological education. It really has to be. to be. to be. >> Um of course glad to do that with our >> Um of course glad to do that with our >> Um of course glad to do that with our friend Doug Sweeney leading here at friend Doug Sweeney leading here at friend Doug Sweeney leading here at Beeson Divinity School who invited me to Beeson Divinity School who invited me to Beeson Divinity School who invited me to teach that course, no doubt shaped by teach that course, no doubt shaped by teach that course, no doubt shaped by your own experiences there at Trinity.

your own experiences there at Trinity. your own experiences there at Trinity. Um, how would you describe the current Um, how would you describe the current Um, how would you describe the current state of theological interpretation of state of theological interpretation of state of theological interpretation of scripture? scripture? scripture? Some people will will know exactly what Some people will will know exactly what Some people will will know exactly what we mean by that, but not everybody will. we mean by that, but not everybody will. we mean by that, but not everybody will. So, maybe give just a brief explanation So, maybe give just a brief explanation So, maybe give just a brief explanation and then describe exactly where you see and then describe exactly where you see and then describe exactly where you see us us us right now. You've been involved in that right now. You've been involved in that right now. You've been involved in that effort for quite some time. effort for quite some time. effort for quite some time. >> Yes, theological interpretation of >> Yes, theological interpretation of >> Yes, theological interpretation of scripture is on one level the kind of scripture is on one level the kind of scripture is on one level the kind of interpretation theologians have been interpretation theologians have been interpretation theologians have been given of the biblical text. given of the biblical text. given of the biblical text. And there's been a bit of a a culture And there's been a bit of a a culture And there's been a bit of a a culture clash here because clash here because clash here because a lot of the biblical scholars aren't a lot of the biblical scholars aren't a lot of the biblical scholars aren't really acknowledging it as good really acknowledging it as good really acknowledging it as good interpretation. They interpretation. They interpretation. They The concern is that theologians are The concern is that theologians are The concern is that theologians are reading something into the text. And by reading something into the text. And by reading something into the text. And by the way, I share that concern. But at the way, I share that concern. But at the way, I share that concern. But at least the dialogue has been happening least the dialogue has been happening least the dialogue has been happening for several years now. We have exegetes for several years now. We have exegetes for several years now. We have exegetes and theologians talking together. and theologians talking together. and theologians talking together. I believe it's ultimately a matter of I believe it's ultimately a matter of I believe it's ultimately a matter of partnership. I believe that the exegetes partnership. I believe that the exegetes partnership. I believe that the exegetes are giving the right kind of attention, are giving the right kind of attention, are giving the right kind of attention, helpful attention to the grammar of the helpful attention to the grammar of the helpful attention to the grammar of the text.

text. text. Uh, the words, the syntax, the Uh, the words, the syntax, the Uh, the words, the syntax, the semantics. But I think theologians are semantics. But I think theologians are semantics. But I think theologians are rightly giving attention to what we rightly giving attention to what we rightly giving attention to what we might call the grammar of God, the might call the grammar of God, the might call the grammar of God, the subject matter of the text. We need subject matter of the text. We need subject matter of the text. We need both. We need people dealing with both both. We need people dealing with both both. We need people dealing with both kinds of grammar, the grammar of the kinds of grammar, the grammar of the kinds of grammar, the grammar of the words, the grammar of God, as it were. words, the grammar of God, as it were. words, the grammar of God, as it were. And by grammar, I simply mean, you know, And by grammar, I simply mean, you know, And by grammar, I simply mean, you know, the rules for rightly thinking about the the rules for rightly thinking about the the rules for rightly thinking about the words and their meaning, and then the words and their meaning, and then the words and their meaning, and then the reference and the subject matter of the reference and the subject matter of the reference and the subject matter of the text. We need rules for thinking about text. We need rules for thinking about text. We need rules for thinking about these things. these things. these things. Theology deals with the rule of faith, Theology deals with the rule of faith, Theology deals with the rule of faith, and and many people and and many people and and many people read the Bible theologically by adopting read the Bible theologically by adopting read the Bible theologically by adopting the rule of faith, which simply says the rule of faith, which simply says the rule of faith, which simply says Old and New Testaments are part of one Old and New Testaments are part of one Old and New Testaments are part of one unified story. There isn't a God of the unified story. There isn't a God of the unified story. There isn't a God of the Old Testament and a God of the new Old Testament and a God of the new Old Testament and a God of the new as was thought in the ancient church as was thought in the ancient church as was thought in the ancient church sometimes. It's one story and the rule sometimes. It's one story and the rule sometimes. It's one story and the rule of faith is a rule for thinking the God of faith is a rule for thinking the God of faith is a rule for thinking the God of Israel and the Father of Jesus Christ of Israel and the Father of Jesus Christ of Israel and the Father of Jesus Christ together. Same God.

together. Same God. together. Same God. Uh but to answer your question, it's a Uh but to answer your question, it's a Uh but to answer your question, it's a work in progress. It's a work in work in progress. It's a work in work in progress. It's a work in progress because progress because progress because many of us, all of us, have been formed many of us, all of us, have been formed many of us, all of us, have been formed by reading cultures in secular by reading cultures in secular by reading cultures in secular universities universities universities that don't necessarily adopt that rule that don't necessarily adopt that rule that don't necessarily adopt that rule of faith. of faith. of faith. Um Um Um so to the extent that faith is kept out so to the extent that faith is kept out so to the extent that faith is kept out of the academy and to the extent that of the academy and to the extent that of the academy and to the extent that we're trained, many of us, in secular we're trained, many of us, in secular we're trained, many of us, in secular academies, academies, academies, we have to unlearn some of the things we have to unlearn some of the things we have to unlearn some of the things we've been taught or at least we have to we've been taught or at least we have to we've been taught or at least we have to enlarge our learning by bringing enlarge our learning by bringing enlarge our learning by bringing church-based learning as well as church-based learning as well as church-based learning as well as academy-based learning to this project academy-based learning to this project academy-based learning to this project of reading the Bible. This is somewhat of reading the Bible. This is somewhat of reading the Bible. This is somewhat related. Is there anything that worries related. Is there anything that worries related. Is there anything that worries you in today's movement toward you in today's movement toward you in today's movement toward theological retrieval? Well, the obvious theological retrieval? Well, the obvious theological retrieval? Well, the obvious question is what exactly are we question is what exactly are we question is what exactly are we retrieving? retrieving? retrieving? And if one thought that one is simply And if one thought that one is simply And if one thought that one is simply retrieving retrieving retrieving um um um a unified tradition, a unified tradition, a unified tradition, uh there's some positives and negatives uh there's some positives and negatives uh there's some positives and negatives about that. I mean, I'm obviously for about that. I mean, I'm obviously for about that. I mean, I'm obviously for mere Christianity, but on the other mere Christianity, but on the other mere Christianity, but on the other hand, as Lewis himself was quick to hand, as Lewis himself was quick to hand, as Lewis himself was quick to point out, a lot of the growth in our point out, a lot of the growth in our point out, a lot of the growth in our Christian life happens not in the hall Christian life happens not in the hall Christian life happens not in the hall where mere Christianity takes place, but where mere Christianity takes place, but where mere Christianity takes place, but in the particular rooms or specific in the particular rooms or specific in the particular rooms or specific traditions.

traditions. traditions. And so, I wouldn't want retrieval to to And so, I wouldn't want retrieval to to And so, I wouldn't want retrieval to to dilute what dilute what dilute what uh specific historic Protestant uh specific historic Protestant uh specific historic Protestant traditions have developed and explored. traditions have developed and explored. traditions have developed and explored. Uh because there are specific questions Uh because there are specific questions Uh because there are specific questions that denominations have answered that denominations have answered that denominations have answered differently. differently. differently. And I think the key for Protestants is And I think the key for Protestants is And I think the key for Protestants is we can still fellowship across our we can still fellowship across our we can still fellowship across our differences most of the time. And I differences most of the time. And I differences most of the time. And I think that is why I would want to claim think that is why I would want to claim think that is why I would want to claim And I here I'm following um And I here I'm following um And I here I'm following um Gavin Ortlund and Beth Felker Jones in Gavin Ortlund and Beth Felker Jones in Gavin Ortlund and Beth Felker Jones in their recent books on Protestantism. their recent books on Protestantism. their recent books on Protestantism. I I would want to claim that that I I would want to claim that that I I would want to claim that that Protestants really are able to Protestants really are able to Protestants really are able to demonstrate a true catholicity. demonstrate a true catholicity. demonstrate a true catholicity. Uh a fellowship across the faith, uh Uh a fellowship across the faith, uh Uh a fellowship across the faith, uh unity on the essentials unity on the essentials unity on the essentials while while while while being tolerant and gracious and while being tolerant and gracious and while being tolerant and gracious and generous about differences on secondary generous about differences on secondary generous about differences on secondary matters. And sec- By secondary, I don't matters. And sec- By secondary, I don't matters. And sec- By secondary, I don't mean they're not important. They're just mean they're not important. They're just mean they're not important. They're just not important enough to divide the not important enough to divide the not important enough to divide the church over.

church over. church over. So, I spent a lot of time on secondary So, I spent a lot of time on secondary So, I spent a lot of time on secondary differences. I have my own Uh I have my differences. I have my own Uh I have my differences. I have my own Uh I have my own favorites, as it were. But I'm not own favorites, as it were. But I'm not own favorites, as it were. But I'm not going to break fellowship if someone going to break fellowship if someone going to break fellowship if someone doesn't agree with me doesn't agree with me doesn't agree with me on a particular doctrine on a particular doctrine on a particular doctrine that is not essential for orthodoxy that is not essential for orthodoxy that is not essential for orthodoxy itself. itself. itself. >> Of course, a lot of those are the issues >> Of course, a lot of those are the issues >> Of course, a lot of those are the issues that come out or came out in your that come out or came out in your that come out or came out in your Theology 3 class because it covers Theology 3 class because it covers Theology 3 class because it covers ecclesiology. So, you get all those ecclesiology. So, you get all those ecclesiology. So, you get all those different things that actually put us in different things that actually put us in different things that actually put us in different in different churches. different in different churches. different in different churches. Um you know, people who have been Um you know, people who have been Um you know, people who have been listening to this podcast may be listening to this podcast may be listening to this podcast may be familiar with the Alexandria Institute, familiar with the Alexandria Institute, familiar with the Alexandria Institute, which has been sponsoring and and which has been sponsoring and and which has been sponsoring and and putting ads here on this podcast and putting ads here on this podcast and putting ads here on this podcast and elsewhere at the Gospel Coalition. So, I elsewhere at the Gospel Coalition. So, I elsewhere at the Gospel Coalition. So, I thought we'd give you a chance to tell thought we'd give you a chance to tell thought we'd give you a chance to tell us a little bit more about the us a little bit more about the us a little bit more about the Alexandria Institute, what you're up to, Alexandria Institute, what you're up to, Alexandria Institute, what you're up to, what you're hoping to do. what you're hoping to do. what you're hoping to do. >> Yeah, I have joined it in a part-time, >> Yeah, I have joined it in a part-time, >> Yeah, I have joined it in a part-time, but significant role. but significant role. but significant role. And I am excited because, you know, And I am excited because, you know, And I am excited because, you know, we're at an age where everybody's we're at an age where everybody's we're at an age where everybody's asking, "How do we do theological asking, "How do we do theological asking, "How do we do theological education?"

education?" education?" And what I appreciate about the And what I appreciate about the And what I appreciate about the Alexandrian Institute is that I think Alexandrian Institute is that I think Alexandrian Institute is that I think they're on the right track. they're on the right track. they're on the right track. I appreciate the fact that the founder, I appreciate the fact that the founder, I appreciate the fact that the founder, Emmanuel Campouris, a retired Emmanuel Campouris, a retired Emmanuel Campouris, a retired businessman, businessman, businessman, wanted to use his fortune or his wanted to use his fortune or his wanted to use his fortune or his resources uh to further higher resources uh to further higher resources uh to further higher theological education. theological education. theological education. And he was actually born in Alexandria, And he was actually born in Alexandria, And he was actually born in Alexandria, so the Institute has a couple of reasons so the Institute has a couple of reasons so the Institute has a couple of reasons for being called what it is. for being called what it is. for being called what it is. >> Good point. >> Good point. >> Good point. >> The other reason is that >> The other reason is that >> The other reason is that we like to say that Alexandria paved the we like to say that Alexandria paved the we like to say that Alexandria paved the road that led to Nicaea and creedal road that led to Nicaea and creedal road that led to Nicaea and creedal orthodoxy by orthodoxy by orthodoxy by theologians like Athanasius and Cyril of theologians like Athanasius and Cyril of theologians like Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria. But uh many of the things Alexandria. But uh many of the things Alexandria. But uh many of the things we've been talking about with regard to we've been talking about with regard to we've been talking about with regard to my book uh are also values of the my book uh are also values of the my book uh are also values of the Alexandrian Institute. Alexandrian Institute. Alexandrian Institute. But my particular role is I'm director But my particular role is I'm director But my particular role is I'm director of postgraduate research. But what that of postgraduate research. But what that of postgraduate research. But what that means is, and this is what I'm excited means is, and this is what I'm excited means is, and this is what I'm excited about, I get to supervise about, I get to supervise about, I get to supervise the doctoral supervisors.

the doctoral supervisors. the doctoral supervisors. >> Uh that's cool. >> Uh that's cool. >> Uh that's cool. >> And my mandate, my job description is >> And my mandate, my job description is >> And my mandate, my job description is I'm supposed to help form a research I'm supposed to help form a research I'm supposed to help form a research culture culture culture that emphasizes intellectual and that emphasizes intellectual and that emphasizes intellectual and spiritual formation spiritual formation spiritual formation and puts the priority on reading and puts the priority on reading and puts the priority on reading scripture with the great tradition for scripture with the great tradition for scripture with the great tradition for the sake of engaging contemporary the sake of engaging contemporary the sake of engaging contemporary culture. culture. culture. So, what's not to like? So, what's not to like? So, what's not to like? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That sounds like you. >> That sounds like you. >> That sounds like you. >> It is. But for the But for the student >> It is. But for the But for the student >> It is. But for the But for the student experience, I'm also pleased that a experience, I'm also pleased that a experience, I'm also pleased that a student who enters the Alexandrian student who enters the Alexandrian student who enters the Alexandrian Institute can be assured that they are Institute can be assured that they are Institute can be assured that they are entering into a research culture where entering into a research culture where entering into a research culture where all the supervisors, I'm supervising 10 all the supervisors, I'm supervising 10 all the supervisors, I'm supervising 10 of them at the moment, have been of them at the moment, have been of them at the moment, have been involved in discussions and readings so involved in discussions and readings so involved in discussions and readings so that we're all on the big on the same that we're all on the big on the same that we're all on the big on the same big page as it were. big page as it were. big page as it were. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. That's really that's really cool. I That's really that's really cool. I That's really that's really cool. I appreciate you sharing about that and appreciate you sharing about that and appreciate you sharing about that and that's very exciting to hear and that's very exciting to hear and that's very exciting to hear and exciting to hear that there are people exciting to hear that there are people exciting to hear that there are people with resources willing to back that kind with resources willing to back that kind with resources willing to back that kind of work, which is always needed but not of work, which is always needed but not of work, which is always needed but not always easy to to finance and to pull always easy to to finance and to pull always easy to to finance and to pull off.

off. off. >> Indeed. Indeed. >> Indeed. Indeed. >> Indeed. Indeed. >> in these in these times. >> in these in these times. >> in these in these times. I have a final three that are just going I have a final three that are just going I have a final three that are just going to be quick questions, but let's get one to be quick questions, but let's get one to be quick questions, but let's get one more before we jump in there. more before we jump in there. more before we jump in there. What's left for you to finish before What's left for you to finish before What's left for you to finish before your career ends? your career ends? your career ends? >> What's left is the biggest project. >> What's left is the biggest project. >> What's left is the biggest project. I'm I'm I'm at work on a four-volume I'm I'm I'm at work on a four-volume I'm I'm I'm at work on a four-volume systematic theology. systematic theology. systematic theology. Um Um Um I'd like to say that everything up to I'd like to say that everything up to I'd like to say that everything up to now has been in a sense a tilling of the now has been in a sense a tilling of the now has been in a sense a tilling of the ground. And now ground. And now ground. And now the real planting project begins. The the real planting project begins. The the real planting project begins. The planting because I hope it will bear planting because I hope it will bear planting because I hope it will bear fruit for the church and the academy. fruit for the church and the academy. fruit for the church and the academy. And yeah, I'm And yeah, I'm And yeah, I'm I'm excited about this. It's going to be I'm excited about this. It's going to be I'm excited about this. It's going to be something of a something of a something of a distinct systematic theology but still distinct systematic theology but still distinct systematic theology but still recognizably in that genre. recognizably in that genre. recognizably in that genre. >> Where are you in that process? >> Where are you in that process? >> Where are you in that process? Four volumes. I mean, are they coming Four volumes. I mean, are they coming Four volumes. I mean, are they coming out? Are they all going to drop at once? out? Are they all going to drop at once? out? Are they all going to drop at once? How does this how does this work? How does this how does this work? How does this how does this work? >> In my head, I'm coming along very well.

>> In my head, I'm coming along very well. >> In my head, I'm coming along very well. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I'm not your publisher or your editor, >> I'm not your publisher or your editor, >> I'm not your publisher or your editor, so I don't I'm not legally bound to ask so I don't I'm not legally bound to ask so I don't I'm not legally bound to ask that question. that question. that question. >> And when the publishers come, I quickly >> And when the publishers come, I quickly >> And when the publishers come, I quickly cross to the other side of the street. cross to the other side of the street. cross to the other side of the street. Uh Uh Uh but you know, I'm doing my best under but you know, I'm doing my best under but you know, I'm doing my best under the circumstances, which is all we the circumstances, which is all we the circumstances, which is all we humans can do. humans can do. humans can do. >> Yeah. Amen. Well, we're all excited to >> Yeah. Amen. Well, we're all excited to >> Yeah. Amen. Well, we're all excited to see that. see that. see that. Been talking with Kevin Vanhoozer about Been talking with Kevin Vanhoozer about Been talking with Kevin Vanhoozer about his 2024 book Mere Christian his 2024 book Mere Christian his 2024 book Mere Christian Hermeneutics Transfiguring what it means Hermeneutics Transfiguring what it means Hermeneutics Transfiguring what it means to read the Bible theologically. to read the Bible theologically. to read the Bible theologically. Um let's do our final three. I don't Um let's do our final three. I don't Um let's do our final three. I don't always get to do this in interviews, but always get to do this in interviews, but always get to do this in interviews, but I thought this would be a great fit. Um I thought this would be a great fit. Um I thought this would be a great fit. Um so I've I've asked Steve at various so I've I've asked Steve at various so I've I've asked Steve at various times and I'm just looking for basic times and I'm just looking for basic times and I'm just looking for basic reactions here. reactions here. reactions here. Um but where do you find calm in the Um but where do you find calm in the Um but where do you find calm in the storm? storm? storm? >> So I'm an amateur pianist >> So I'm an amateur pianist >> So I'm an amateur pianist and Brahms. and Brahms. and Brahms. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I love it. I love it. Uh and where do >> I love it. I love it. Uh and where do >> I love it. I love it. Uh and where do you find good news today? you find good news today? you find good news today? >> Uh I think among younger people >> Uh I think among younger people >> Uh I think among younger people I've been I've been I've been you know, I get invitations to give you know, I get invitations to give you know, I get invitations to give talks in various places and talks in various places and talks in various places and uh both online and in person. I'm just uh both online and in person. I'm just uh both online and in person. I'm just back from a couple of weeks in the back from a couple of weeks in the back from a couple of weeks in the United Kingdom.

United Kingdom. United Kingdom. And I was very encouraged to see the And I was very encouraged to see the And I was very encouraged to see the number of people show up for talks. And number of people show up for talks. And number of people show up for talks. And I've actually zoomed with, believe it or I've actually zoomed with, believe it or I've actually zoomed with, believe it or not, high school classes at Christian not, high school classes at Christian not, high school classes at Christian classical schools of people taking classical schools of people taking classical schools of people taking theology. theology. theology. I've zoomed with 15- and 16-year-olds. I've zoomed with 15- and 16-year-olds. I've zoomed with 15- and 16-year-olds. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And if they pay attention and they seem >> And if they pay attention and they seem >> And if they pay attention and they seem to be fairly sharp, that means there's to be fairly sharp, that means there's to be fairly sharp, that means there's there's hope for the church throughout there's hope for the church throughout there's hope for the church throughout the 21st century. the 21st century. the 21st century. >> Yeah. I love that. >> Yeah. I love that. >> Yeah. I love that. And the last one is simply, what's the And the last one is simply, what's the And the last one is simply, what's the last great book you read? last great book you read? last great book you read? >> Well, that is a hard question. >> Well, that is a hard question. >> Well, that is a hard question. I am reading I am reading I am reading a very good book right now. I haven't a very good book right now. I haven't a very good book right now. I haven't finished it, but I'll just give you a finished it, but I'll just give you a finished it, but I'll just give you a report on work in progress. report on work in progress. report on work in progress. Is it novelist Henry James, the brother Is it novelist Henry James, the brother Is it novelist Henry James, the brother of William James, and his classic of William James, and his classic of William James, and his classic Portrait of a Lady. Portrait of a Lady. Portrait of a Lady. And it's um And it's um And it's um it's a it's a it's a I think what's important about this book I think what's important about this book I think what's important about this book is that he shows us how people is that he shows us how people is that he shows us how people are multi-layered, you know, and he's an are multi-layered, you know, and he's an are multi-layered, you know, and he's an observant, sensitive writer.

observant, sensitive writer. observant, sensitive writer. And I would have thought that pastors And I would have thought that pastors And I would have thought that pastors and teachers who work with people and teachers who work with people and teachers who work with people Yeah. would learn from Henry James not Yeah. would learn from Henry James not Yeah. would learn from Henry James not to make quick judgments about you know, to make quick judgments about you know, to make quick judgments about you know, surface appearances, surface appearances, surface appearances, but but but you know, he he understands that we're you know, he he understands that we're you know, he he understands that we're emotional, psychological, spiritual emotional, psychological, spiritual emotional, psychological, spiritual beings beings beings affected by all sorts of concerns, our affected by all sorts of concerns, our affected by all sorts of concerns, our status in society, status in society, status in society, our romantic relationships, our our romantic relationships, our our romantic relationships, our prospects. It just helps to remember prospects. It just helps to remember prospects. It just helps to remember that people, like culture, that people, like culture, that people, like culture, need to be read carefully. need to be read carefully. need to be read carefully. >> Yeah. I love it. >> Yeah. I love it. >> Yeah. I love it. Uh Uh Uh my guest on Gospelbound today has been my guest on Gospelbound today has been my guest on Gospelbound today has been Kevin Vanhoozer. His book, Mere Kevin Vanhoozer. His book, Mere Kevin Vanhoozer. His book, Mere Christian Hermeneutics: Transfiguring Christian Hermeneutics: Transfiguring Christian Hermeneutics: Transfiguring What It Means to Read [music] the Bible. What It Means to Read [music] the Bible. What It Means to Read [music] the Bible. Kevin, thank you again for all the ways Kevin, thank you again for all the ways Kevin, thank you again for all the ways you formed me over the years and you formed me over the years and you formed me over the years and continue to form me through [music] your continue to form me through [music] your continue to form me through [music] your works, and thanks for spending time with works, and thanks for spending time with works, and thanks for spending time with us here today. us here today. us here today. >> Thank you, Collin. I enjoyed it. >> Thank you, Collin. I enjoyed it. >> Thank you, Collin. I enjoyed it. >> [music] >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to [music] tgc.org/gospelbound.

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