A Tool for Spiritual Formation in a Secular Age (w/Trevin Wax & Thomas West) [Gospelbound - Ep. 176]

what's gone wrong with the world is uh what's gone wrong with the world is uh you you find you know it's either you you find you know it's either you you find you know it's either ignorance, it's injustice [music] of ignorance, it's injustice [music] of ignorance, it's injustice [music] of some sort, or it's the failure to be some sort, or it's the failure to be some sort, or it's the failure to be true to ourselves. And so we wanted to true to ourselves. And so we wanted to true to ourselves. And so we wanted to to demonstrate that the Bible doesn't to demonstrate that the Bible doesn't to demonstrate that the Bible doesn't deny that those things can be problems, deny that those things can be problems, deny that those things can be problems, [music] but actually takes us deeper to [music] but actually takes us deeper to [music] but actually takes us deeper to say sin is the big problem with the say sin is the big problem with the say sin is the big problem with the world. sin, [music] evil, and the death world. sin, [music] evil, and the death world. sin, [music] evil, and the death that then results. At the end of my class on cultural At the end of my class on cultural apologetics that I teach at Beast and apologetics that I teach at Beast and apologetics that I teach at Beast and Divinity School, I assign a group Divinity School, I assign a group Divinity School, I assign a group exercise. [music] exercise. [music] exercise. [music] The students need to compose 10 The students need to compose 10 The students need to compose 10 questions and answers to form a questions and answers to form a questions and answers to form a modern-day catechism. Historically, modern-day catechism. Historically, modern-day catechism. Historically, catechisms have emerged during times of catechisms have emerged during times of catechisms have emerged during times of cultural transition as well as cultural transition as well as cultural transition as well as confrontation of the gospel such as in confrontation of the gospel such as in confrontation of the gospel such as in our own in the aftermath of Christendom our own in the aftermath of Christendom our own in the aftermath of Christendom and the enlightenment awaiting whatever and the enlightenment awaiting whatever and the enlightenment awaiting whatever develops, whatever awaits us in develops, whatever awaits us in develops, whatever awaits us in post-liberalism.

post-liberalism. post-liberalism. So, catechisms are not merely a relic of So, catechisms are not merely a relic of So, catechisms are not merely a relic of our past, but a vital resource for the our past, but a vital resource for the our past, but a vital resource for the present that prepares us for the future. present that prepares us for the future. present that prepares us for the future. And I'm delighted with how the New City And I'm delighted with how the New City And I'm delighted with how the New City Catechism, especially our devotional, Catechism, especially our devotional, Catechism, especially our devotional, still serves readers. And I'm especially still serves readers. And I'm especially still serves readers. And I'm especially delighted by a new volume, the Gospel delighted by a new volume, the Gospel delighted by a new volume, the Gospel Way Catechism, 50 Truths that Take on Way Catechism, 50 Truths that Take on Way Catechism, 50 Truths that Take on the World, published by Harvest House the World, published by Harvest House the World, published by Harvest House and written by my friends Trevan Wax and and written by my friends Trevan Wax and and written by my friends Trevan Wax and Thomas West. Tim Keller said this. We Thomas West. Tim Keller said this. We Thomas West. Tim Keller said this. We need a counter catechism that explains, need a counter catechism that explains, need a counter catechism that explains, refutes, and renarrates the world's refutes, and renarrates the world's refutes, and renarrates the world's catechisms to Christians. catechisms to Christians. catechisms to Christians. And that's what Trevan and Thomas have And that's what Trevan and Thomas have And that's what Trevan and Thomas have done in the Gospel Way Catechism. Trevan done in the Gospel Way Catechism. Trevan done in the Gospel Way Catechism. Trevan is vice president of research and is vice president of research and is vice president of research and resource development at the North resource development at the North resource development at the North American Mission Board. Thomas is the American Mission Board. Thomas is the American Mission Board. Thomas is the pastor of Nashville First Baptist Church pastor of Nashville First Baptist Church pastor of Nashville First Baptist Church and they join me now on Gospelbound. and they join me now on Gospelbound. and they join me now on Gospelbound. Welcome, gentlemen. Welcome, gentlemen. Welcome, gentlemen. >> Colin, great to be here. >> Colin, great to be here. >> Colin, great to be here. >> Hi, Colin. Thanks for having us. Thomas, >> Hi, Colin. Thanks for having us. Thomas, >> Hi, Colin. Thanks for having us. Thomas, how much push back do a couple of how much push back do a couple of how much push back do a couple of Baptists such as yourselves get to Baptists such as yourselves get to Baptists such as yourselves get to writing a catechism? A comment we've writing a catechism? A comment we've writing a catechism? A comment we've heard over the years, no creed, but the heard over the years, no creed, but the heard over the years, no creed, but the Bible. Um, we don't need anything but Bible. Um, we don't need anything but Bible. Um, we don't need anything but Christ. You hear that from Christ. You hear that from Christ. You hear that from restorationist movements and sometimes restorationist movements and sometimes restorationist movements and sometimes also from Baptists. So, what kind of also from Baptists. So, what kind of also from Baptists. So, what kind of push back do you guys get? to be fair push back do you guys get? to be fair push back do you guys get? to be fair and perhaps to pick on Baptists uh just and perhaps to pick on Baptists uh just and perhaps to pick on Baptists uh just a little bit. Uh when word was getting a little bit. Uh when word was getting a little bit. Uh when word was getting out and even when it came to press um out and even when it came to press um out and even when it came to press um most uh non-denoms uh charismatics or most uh non-denoms uh charismatics or most uh non-denoms uh charismatics or Pentecostals would say catechism uh what Pentecostals would say catechism uh what Pentecostals would say catechism uh what is that? And the Baptist would have a is that? And the Baptist would have a is that? And the Baptist would have a wonder oo catechisms can we do that and wonder oo catechisms can we do that and wonder oo catechisms can we do that and a few Presbyterians and knowing

a few Presbyterians and knowing a few Presbyterians and knowing Anglicans would nod ah catechism good Anglicans would nod ah catechism good Anglicans would nod ah catechism good man. So uh I think people a lot of man. So uh I think people a lot of man. So uh I think people a lot of Baptists are wait where are we with Baptists are wait where are we with Baptists are wait where are we with this? And of course when you dig into it this? And of course when you dig into it this? And of course when you dig into it uh Keech and others um Baptist have a uh Keech and others um Baptist have a uh Keech and others um Baptist have a long legacy of good catechesus uh at long legacy of good catechesus uh at long legacy of good catechesus uh at times borrowing and emulating a little times borrowing and emulating a little times borrowing and emulating a little more and it's been a joy to partner in more and it's been a joy to partner in more and it's been a joy to partner in this with Traban. this with Traban. this with Traban. >> Were there any specific uh historical >> Were there any specific uh historical >> Were there any specific uh historical catechisms maybe especially from Baptist catechisms maybe especially from Baptist catechisms maybe especially from Baptist that stood out Thomas and you guys that stood out Thomas and you guys that stood out Thomas and you guys preparation or were instrumental in preparation or were instrumental in preparation or were instrumental in forming this project? forming this project? forming this project? >> Tried to keep an eye on uh the big ones >> Tried to keep an eye on uh the big ones >> Tried to keep an eye on uh the big ones that are there. Um, Keech was there. Um, that are there. Um, Keech was there. Um, that are there. Um, Keech was there. Um, Spurgeon has some work around it. Uh, H Spurgeon has some work around it. Uh, H Spurgeon has some work around it. Uh, H Highleberg, uh, Luther, Calvin, and Highleberg, uh, Luther, Calvin, and Highleberg, uh, Luther, Calvin, and Westminster were the big ones that we Westminster were the big ones that we Westminster were the big ones that we try to have a look at whenever we came try to have a look at whenever we came try to have a look at whenever we came across a question. Now, Trevan, what do across a question. Now, Trevan, what do across a question. Now, Trevan, what do you think is the most controversial you think is the most controversial you think is the most controversial truth in in this book? Where do you see truth in in this book? Where do you see truth in in this book? Where do you see most of the confrontation with our most of the confrontation with our most of the confrontation with our secular world today?

secular world today? secular world today? >> You know, I'm I'm I'm tempted to just go >> You know, I'm I'm I'm tempted to just go >> You know, I'm I'm I'm tempted to just go to the what is sexuality question. uh to the what is sexuality question. uh to the what is sexuality question. uh because that's not typically one that because that's not typically one that because that's not typically one that you find in some of the the classic you find in some of the the classic you find in some of the the classic catechisms because they they weren't catechisms because they they weren't catechisms because they they weren't having to deal with some of the issues having to deal with some of the issues having to deal with some of the issues that we're having to deal with. that we're having to deal with. that we're having to deal with. >> Wasn't contested in the same ways. Yeah, >> Wasn't contested in the same ways. Yeah, >> Wasn't contested in the same ways. Yeah, >> it wasn't contested. You can still find >> it wasn't contested. You can still find >> it wasn't contested. You can still find teaching on marriage and the family and teaching on marriage and the family and teaching on marriage and the family and sexuality in some of the uh the the sexuality in some of the uh the the sexuality in some of the uh the the larger catechisms, but you you don't larger catechisms, but you you don't larger catechisms, but you you don't find it with in this sort of find it with in this sort of find it with in this sort of countercultural pointedness that we countercultural pointedness that we countercultural pointedness that we needed to do today. So, I'm tempted to needed to do today. So, I'm tempted to needed to do today. So, I'm tempted to say that's the one, but honestly, I say that's the one, but honestly, I say that's the one, but honestly, I thinking about it, I think, you know, thinking about it, I think, you know, thinking about it, I think, you know, actually there's a couple of places actually there's a couple of places actually there's a couple of places where we just very much on the nose talk where we just very much on the nose talk where we just very much on the nose talk about a God oriented view of life versus about a God oriented view of life versus about a God oriented view of life versus a human or a me first oriented view of a human or a me first oriented view of a human or a me first oriented view of life. And frankly, I think that's the life. And frankly, I think that's the life. And frankly, I think that's the fountain of where you're you get all the fountain of where you're you get all the fountain of where you're you get all the the different kinds of cultural the different kinds of cultural the different kinds of cultural narratives that that uh take us away narratives that that uh take us away narratives that that uh take us away from the scriptures and away from the from the scriptures and away from the from the scriptures and away from the vision that we have in the gospel. And vision that we have in the gospel. And vision that we have in the gospel. And so, um, I I think I think a couple of so, um, I I think I think a couple of so, um, I I think I think a couple of those questions are probably those questions are probably those questions are probably actually more countercultural because actually more countercultural because actually more countercultural because they're underneath some of the the the they're underneath some of the the the they're underneath some of the the the presenting issues of sexuality or the presenting issues of sexuality or the presenting issues of sexuality or the the transhumanist desire to to want to the transhumanist desire to to want to the transhumanist desire to to want to extend your life forever or some of the extend your life forever or some of the extend your life forever or some of the other things that we might look at.

other things that we might look at. other things that we might look at. >> Well, let's take a step back then and >> Well, let's take a step back then and >> Well, let's take a step back then and think about what the world's think about what the world's think about what the world's alternatives are to what you guys are alternatives are to what you guys are alternatives are to what you guys are offering here. Trevan, question 16 is, offering here. Trevan, question 16 is, offering here. Trevan, question 16 is, "What has gone wrong?" Now, let's say "What has gone wrong?" Now, let's say "What has gone wrong?" Now, let's say you guys are walking down the streets of you guys are walking down the streets of you guys are walking down the streets of Nashville, right outside of First Nashville, right outside of First Nashville, right outside of First Baptist Church, right there on Broadway. Baptist Church, right there on Broadway. Baptist Church, right there on Broadway. You ask the question, "What has gone You ask the question, "What has gone You ask the question, "What has gone wrong?" What are the answers we're going wrong?" What are the answers we're going wrong?" What are the answers we're going to hear from the world? What do you guys to hear from the world? What do you guys to hear from the world? What do you guys expect people other people would say? In expect people other people would say? In expect people other people would say? In my experience, when we when people talk my experience, when we when people talk my experience, when we when people talk about what has gone wrong with the about what has gone wrong with the about what has gone wrong with the world, they're generally you're going to world, they're generally you're going to world, they're generally you're going to be able to tell what they think has gone be able to tell what they think has gone be able to tell what they think has gone wrong, even if they don't articulate it wrong, even if they don't articulate it wrong, even if they don't articulate it in these terms by the solution they in these terms by the solution they in these terms by the solution they think is going to fix whatever has gone think is going to fix whatever has gone think is going to fix whatever has gone wrong. So, for example, there are some wrong. So, for example, there are some wrong. So, for example, there are some that believe, you know, the real problem that believe, you know, the real problem that believe, you know, the real problem is ignorance. We don't know the right is ignorance. We don't know the right is ignorance. We don't know the right thing to do or we don't know the best thing to do or we don't know the best thing to do or we don't know the best way forward and so we need education. way forward and so we need education. way forward and so we need education. That's right. That's right. Education That's right. That's right. Education That's right. That's right. Education becomes the solution. Um, other people becomes the solution. Um, other people becomes the solution. Um, other people are going to say the deepest problem is are going to say the deepest problem is are going to say the deepest problem is uh social injustice, right? That you can uh social injustice, right? That you can uh social injustice, right? That you can see that all around the world that's the see that all around the world that's the see that all around the world that's the problem. So what is the solution?

problem. So what is the solution? problem. So what is the solution? Whatever movement that you're a part of Whatever movement that you're a part of Whatever movement that you're a part of that's going to lead to some kind of that's going to lead to some kind of that's going to lead to some kind of social justice, some kind of social uh social justice, some kind of social uh social justice, some kind of social uh activism. Uh activism. Uh activism. Uh >> we need better government. We need >> we need better government. We need >> we need better government. We need better government in that case. better government in that case. better government in that case. >> That's right. pass the right laws, get >> That's right. pass the right laws, get >> That's right. pass the right laws, get the right people elected, or you know, the right people elected, or you know, the right people elected, or you know, uh, you know, root out whatever is wrong uh, you know, root out whatever is wrong uh, you know, root out whatever is wrong in whatever systems and structures there in whatever systems and structures there in whatever systems and structures there are in society. Um, and then and then are in society. Um, and then and then are in society. Um, and then and then you've got the more individualistic sort you've got the more individualistic sort you've got the more individualistic sort of a lot of people when they hear the of a lot of people when they hear the of a lot of people when they hear the question of what's gone wrong with the question of what's gone wrong with the question of what's gone wrong with the world, they immediately think of the world, they immediately think of the world, they immediately think of the world holding us back as individuals world holding us back as individuals world holding us back as individuals from being our truest selves, right? from being our truest selves, right? from being our truest selves, right? That I I need to be true to myself and That I I need to be true to myself and That I I need to be true to myself and I'm not able to be because of the I'm not able to be because of the I'm not able to be because of the society around me. And sometimes that society around me. And sometimes that society around me. And sometimes that overlaps with the education component or overlaps with the education component or overlaps with the education component or the the ignorance component or the um uh the the ignorance component or the um uh the the ignorance component or the um uh the the social justice one, but that's the the social justice one, but that's the the social justice one, but that's really that's the expressive really that's the expressive really that's the expressive individualist answer is you know the individualist answer is you know the individualist answer is you know the world's keeping me back from being able world's keeping me back from being able world's keeping me back from being able to reach my full potential and is to reach my full potential and is to reach my full potential and is stifling me. Um, so those tend to be the stifling me. Um, so those tend to be the stifling me. Um, so those tend to be the responses that we know what's gone wrong responses that we know what's gone wrong responses that we know what's gone wrong with the world is uh you you find, you with the world is uh you you find, you with the world is uh you you find, you know, it's either ignorance, it's know, it's either ignorance, it's know, it's either ignorance, it's injustice of some sort, or it's the injustice of some sort, or it's the injustice of some sort, or it's the failure to be true to ourselves. And so failure to be true to ourselves. And so failure to be true to ourselves. And so we wanted to to demonstrate that the we wanted to to demonstrate that the we wanted to to demonstrate that the Bible doesn't deny that those things can Bible doesn't deny that those things can Bible doesn't deny that those things can be problems, but actually takes us be problems, but actually takes us be problems, but actually takes us deeper to say sin is the big problem deeper to say sin is the big problem deeper to say sin is the big problem with the world. Sin, evil, and the death with the world. Sin, evil, and the death with the world. Sin, evil, and the death that then results. Sherman, how are we that then results. Sherman, how are we that then results. Sherman, how are we supposed to in one catechism, let alone supposed to in one catechism, let alone supposed to in one catechism, let alone in other aspects of our ministry, be in other aspects of our ministry, be in other aspects of our ministry, be able to address all of those different

able to address all of those different able to address all of those different answers? Because that could go from answers? Because that could go from answers? Because that could go from person to person. That could go from person to person. That could go from person to person. That could go from moment to moment. It feels like we're moment to moment. It feels like we're moment to moment. It feels like we're all these problems are popping up and all these problems are popping up and all these problems are popping up and we're just having to sort of whack them we're just having to sort of whack them we're just having to sort of whack them down [laughter] in there. How did you down [laughter] in there. How did you down [laughter] in there. How did you guys approach that within this catechism guys approach that within this catechism guys approach that within this catechism or how do you see that playing out in or how do you see that playing out in or how do you see that playing out in our broader ministry? Well, I think our our broader ministry? Well, I think our our broader ministry? Well, I think our goal was to give Christians and and goal was to give Christians and and goal was to give Christians and and fundamentally the catechism is for new fundamentally the catechism is for new fundamentally the catechism is for new Christians or even Christians that want Christians or even Christians that want Christians or even Christians that want to have a tuneup, you know, of sorts and to have a tuneup, you know, of sorts and to have a tuneup, you know, of sorts and the way to think more biblically, to see the way to think more biblically, to see the way to think more biblically, to see the world more biblically. Um, our idea the world more biblically. Um, our idea the world more biblically. Um, our idea was to give Christians handles so that was to give Christians handles so that was to give Christians handles so that they're able to then to then spot some they're able to then to then spot some they're able to then to then spot some of the superficial solutions that will of the superficial solutions that will of the superficial solutions that will be out there because of the superficial be out there because of the superficial be out there because of the superficial diagnosis that we have of the problems diagnosis that we have of the problems diagnosis that we have of the problems that are out in our society. So it's not that are out in our society. So it's not that are out in our society. So it's not so much uh of trying to you know Elvis so much uh of trying to you know Elvis so much uh of trying to you know Elvis sort of whack-a-ole all the problems we sort of whack-a-ole all the problems we sort of whack-a-ole all the problems we see in society but to connect them and see in society but to connect them and see in society but to connect them and to go one level deeper to show the Bible to go one level deeper to show the Bible to go one level deeper to show the Bible giving us the the greater diagnosis the giving us the the greater diagnosis the giving us the the greater diagnosis the deeper diagnosis of what's gone wrong.

deeper diagnosis of what's gone wrong. deeper diagnosis of what's gone wrong. Uh and and the the the great thing is in Uh and and the the the great thing is in Uh and and the the the great thing is in conversations with unbelievers or even conversations with unbelievers or even conversations with unbelievers or even Christians that may may be superficial Christians that may may be superficial Christians that may may be superficial in their approach to some some of the in their approach to some some of the in their approach to some some of the problems we see in our society. What problems we see in our society. What problems we see in our society. What what's beautiful about this is that you what's beautiful about this is that you what's beautiful about this is that you actually can start where the person is. actually can start where the person is. actually can start where the person is. You know, lack of education or ignorance You know, lack of education or ignorance You know, lack of education or ignorance can be a problem, right? We wouldn't can be a problem, right? We wouldn't can be a problem, right? We wouldn't deny that there is injustice in society. deny that there is injustice in society. deny that there is injustice in society. We also wouldn't deny that there are We also wouldn't deny that there are We also wouldn't deny that there are forces that could help stifle your forces that could help stifle your forces that could help stifle your individuality of some sense. But you you individuality of some sense. But you you individuality of some sense. But you you take wherever that whatever that take wherever that whatever that take wherever that whatever that diagnosis is uh superficial that it may diagnosis is uh superficial that it may diagnosis is uh superficial that it may be but you're able to begin to to walk be but you're able to begin to to walk be but you're able to begin to to walk deeper to take the person to from the deeper to take the person to from the deeper to take the person to from the starting point and not just come against starting point and not just come against starting point and not just come against that view but to lead to a position that view but to lead to a position that view but to lead to a position where that view is then explained and where that view is then explained and where that view is then explained and then deepened because of the Bible's then deepened because of the Bible's then deepened because of the Bible's richer diagnosis deeper diagnosis of richer diagnosis deeper diagnosis of richer diagnosis deeper diagnosis of what's wrong. So that's the idea is we what's wrong. So that's the idea is we what's wrong. So that's the idea is we really want Christians to come away with really want Christians to come away with really want Christians to come away with handles so they're able to not only see handles so they're able to not only see handles so they're able to not only see the world through a a richer biblical the world through a a richer biblical the world through a a richer biblical lens but then also help other people uh lens but then also help other people uh lens but then also help other people uh trace their their uh discomfort in the trace their their uh discomfort in the trace their their uh discomfort in the world their their sense that something world their their sense that something world their their sense that something is wrong their disorientation to the is wrong their disorientation to the is wrong their disorientation to the scriptures to where we find the the scriptures to where we find the the scriptures to where we find the the greater answers. Thomas, I think this greater answers. Thomas, I think this greater answers. Thomas, I think this will be fairly similar, at least run will be fairly similar, at least run will be fairly similar, at least run along some similar lines. You write in along some similar lines. You write in along some similar lines. You write in this book about how Western culture is this book about how Western culture is this book about how Western culture is inherently self-centered. U part of that inherently self-centered. U part of that inherently self-centered. U part of that is clearly a sin and then part of that's is clearly a sin and then part of that's is clearly a sin and then part of that's merely being descriptive about the way merely being descriptive about the way merely being descriptive about the way Western culture uniquely centers on the Western culture uniquely centers on the Western culture uniquely centers on the individual and centers on the self. But

individual and centers on the self. But individual and centers on the self. But at least in terms of the problematic at least in terms of the problematic at least in terms of the problematic iteration of this, you offer this tool, iteration of this, you offer this tool, iteration of this, you offer this tool, this catechism as an as an antidote this catechism as an as an antidote this catechism as an as an antidote really, not just an alternative, but a really, not just an alternative, but a really, not just an alternative, but a cure for this. Tell us a little bit more cure for this. Tell us a little bit more cure for this. Tell us a little bit more about what you mean. And I'm wondering about what you mean. And I'm wondering about what you mean. And I'm wondering if you guys see this inherently if you guys see this inherently if you guys see this inherently self-centered problem as a particular self-centered problem as a particular self-centered problem as a particular manifestation of Western culture or manifestation of Western culture or manifestation of Western culture or Western culture today, or do you see it Western culture today, or do you see it Western culture today, or do you see it as more of a problem going back to the as more of a problem going back to the as more of a problem going back to the origins to Adam and Eve themselves? I origins to Adam and Eve themselves? I origins to Adam and Eve themselves? I think Luther um spot on when he talks think Luther um spot on when he talks think Luther um spot on when he talks about how sin essentially makes us in about how sin essentially makes us in about how sin essentially makes us in curvous day. We're curved in on curvous day. We're curved in on curvous day. We're curved in on ourselves. We become naval gazers. All ourselves. We become naval gazers. All ourselves. We become naval gazers. All we can do is pay attention to ourselves we can do is pay attention to ourselves we can do is pay attention to ourselves and our our wants and our and our and our our wants and our and our and our our wants and our and our longings. Um I think there's even more longings. Um I think there's even more longings. Um I think there's even more helpful content there about how we helpful content there about how we helpful content there about how we actually become trapped where that's all actually become trapped where that's all actually become trapped where that's all we can want and we can't even escape uh we can want and we can't even escape uh we can want and we can't even escape uh those those abilities uh to want. Um the those those abilities uh to want. Um the those those abilities uh to want. Um the big it's I think it's clearly the the big it's I think it's clearly the the big it's I think it's clearly the the big mood of our modern cultural moment.

big mood of our modern cultural moment. big mood of our modern cultural moment. Um but it's not really new to now. Um Um but it's not really new to now. Um Um but it's not really new to now. Um this is this is a problem as old as time this is this is a problem as old as time this is this is a problem as old as time uh that we have on our hands here. Um uh that we have on our hands here. Um uh that we have on our hands here. Um many many of of late have done a really many many of of late have done a really many many of of late have done a really fine job of pointing out how this is a fine job of pointing out how this is a fine job of pointing out how this is a unique problem in our cultural moment. unique problem in our cultural moment. unique problem in our cultural moment. Um Colin, even you've written about how Um Colin, even you've written about how Um Colin, even you've written about how we're moving towards the other wall of we're moving towards the other wall of we're moving towards the other wall of the hurricane now. Um yeah, this this is the hurricane now. Um yeah, this this is the hurricane now. Um yeah, this this is a unique issue to now and from social a unique issue to now and from social a unique issue to now and from social media um the influence on self um media um the influence on self um media um the influence on self um secular moving postsecular there's lots secular moving postsecular there's lots secular moving postsecular there's lots of reasons that it's here and it's so of reasons that it's here and it's so of reasons that it's here and it's so pronounced for us but it's not really pronounced for us but it's not really pronounced for us but it's not really new and unique to us. Um you're asking new and unique to us. Um you're asking new and unique to us. Um you're asking Trevan how do how do you how do you Trevan how do how do you how do you Trevan how do how do you how do you narrow it down and there's a sense to narrow it down and there's a sense to narrow it down and there's a sense to where it's like do you want do we want where it's like do you want do we want where it's like do you want do we want to try to put together a catechism for to try to put together a catechism for to try to put together a catechism for the world at large or for a tighter the world at large or for a tighter the world at large or for a tighter population. So with that, we did uh try population. So with that, we did uh try population. So with that, we did uh try to fix our focus uh more acutely on uh to fix our focus uh more acutely on uh to fix our focus uh more acutely on uh western culture and um really really western culture and um really really western culture and um really really zone in for for this um specific zone in for for this um specific zone in for for this um specific cultural moment. Um we try to draw cultural moment. Um we try to draw cultural moment. Um we try to draw attention to the problem though by attention to the problem though by attention to the problem though by beginning with uh popular cultural beginning with uh popular cultural beginning with uh popular cultural stories and cultural narratives that stories and cultural narratives that stories and cultural narratives that people are likely to uh believe or have people are likely to uh believe or have people are likely to uh believe or have been tempted to believe and then from been tempted to believe and then from been tempted to believe and then from there uh move towards uh the scripture.

there uh move towards uh the scripture. there uh move towards uh the scripture. Um I would say that's probably a unique Um I would say that's probably a unique Um I would say that's probably a unique approach to to this catechism attempting approach to to this catechism attempting approach to to this catechism attempting counter catechesus um following the counter catechesus um following the counter catechesus um following the prompting of Keller there to say yes prompting of Keller there to say yes prompting of Keller there to say yes there is a world story you have heard it there is a world story you have heard it there is a world story you have heard it said but the gospel says um so said but the gospel says um so said but the gospel says um so attempting to draw attention to the attempting to draw attention to the attempting to draw attention to the story of self by beginning with the story of self by beginning with the story of self by beginning with the story of self and all of its different story of self and all of its different story of self and all of its different offshoots and then leading out towards offshoots and then leading out towards offshoots and then leading out towards the biblical story from there. Trevor, the biblical story from there. Trevor, the biblical story from there. Trevor, what kind of inspiration did you guys what kind of inspiration did you guys what kind of inspiration did you guys seek when you were composing this seek when you were composing this seek when you were composing this catechism? Tell us a little bit about catechism? Tell us a little bit about catechism? Tell us a little bit about the writing process, what that looked the writing process, what that looked the writing process, what that looked like for the two of you. We we talked like for the two of you. We we talked like for the two of you. We we talked about this for several years before we about this for several years before we about this for several years before we actually got going with it. I both of us actually got going with it. I both of us actually got going with it. I both of us remember where we were at different remember where we were at different remember where we were at different locations, different times when we first locations, different times when we first locations, different times when we first heard Tim Keller talk about the need for heard Tim Keller talk about the need for heard Tim Keller talk about the need for counter catechesus. Um, and where Tim counter catechesus. Um, and where Tim counter catechesus. Um, and where Tim would always say every catechism is would always say every catechism is would always say every catechism is countercateus. in that in the sense even countercateus. in that in the sense even countercateus. in that in the sense even if you look at the great reformation if you look at the great reformation if you look at the great reformation catechisms they were always they they catechisms they were always they they catechisms they were always they they were pushing back against the the common were pushing back against the the common were pushing back against the the common errors of the day at that point it was errors of the day at that point it was errors of the day at that point it was the excesses and errors of medieval the excesses and errors of medieval the excesses and errors of medieval Roman Catholicism for the most part but Roman Catholicism for the most part but Roman Catholicism for the most part but they were they were consistently pushing they were they were consistently pushing they were they were consistently pushing against uh problems that they saw in against uh problems that they saw in against uh problems that they saw in their own society uh but that we needed their own society uh but that we needed their own society uh but that we needed that as well for today's cultural that as well for today's cultural that as well for today's cultural narratives and so I remember where I was narratives and so I remember where I was narratives and so I remember where I was Thomas remembers where he was when we Thomas remembers where he was when we Thomas remembers where he was when we first heard Keller talking about this first heard Keller talking about this first heard Keller talking about this then we wound up talking together about then we wound up talking together about then we wound up talking together about this when Thomas was planting a a church this when Thomas was planting a a church this when Thomas was planting a a church in London uh at the time. And um I in London uh at the time. And um I in London uh at the time. And um I actually had a the the origin story is a actually had a the the origin story is a actually had a the the origin story is a little fun in that I had a um a a

little fun in that I had a um a a little fun in that I had a um a a writing leave at the study leave at the writing leave at the study leave at the writing leave at the study leave at the Kils uh the the home that CS Lewis lived Kils uh the the home that CS Lewis lived Kils uh the the home that CS Lewis lived in for for more than 30 years. And uh I in for for more than 30 years. And uh I in for for more than 30 years. And uh I was I was staying there. Thomas took the was I was staying there. Thomas took the was I was staying there. Thomas took the train down from London. And we really we train down from London. And we really we train down from London. And we really we spent the day in the common room of the spent the day in the common room of the spent the day in the common room of the kils just talking, walking, pacing back kils just talking, walking, pacing back kils just talking, walking, pacing back and forth, typing, jotting things down, and forth, typing, jotting things down, and forth, typing, jotting things down, saying, "Okay, if we were to take the saying, "Okay, if we were to take the saying, "Okay, if we were to take the basics of the faith and want to present basics of the faith and want to present basics of the faith and want to present them in a way that has this them in a way that has this them in a way that has this countercultural element, what are the countercultural element, what are the countercultural element, what are the questions and answers we just have to questions and answers we just have to questions and answers we just have to have?" been for them. Sometimes it's have?" been for them. Sometimes it's have?" been for them. Sometimes it's it's similar questions that you're going it's similar questions that you're going it's similar questions that you're going to get in any catechism, but the the to get in any catechism, but the the to get in any catechism, but the the answer has a not this but that or you answer has a not this but that or you answer has a not this but that or you have heard it said but the Bible says have heard it said but the Bible says have heard it said but the Bible says something different uh element to it. something different uh element to it. something different uh element to it. Sometimes the questions themselves uh Sometimes the questions themselves uh Sometimes the questions themselves uh are different. I mean having a question are different. I mean having a question are different. I mean having a question about what is freedom for example to about what is freedom for example to about what is freedom for example to talk about the the Bible's vision of talk about the the Bible's vision of talk about the the Bible's vision of freedom versus uh you know a cultural freedom versus uh you know a cultural freedom versus uh you know a cultural vision of freedom that that comes about vision of freedom that that comes about vision of freedom that that comes about differently because the question that is differently because the question that is differently because the question that is raised by by our our current cultural raised by by our our current cultural raised by by our our current cultural moment. U so we we had a great time moment. U so we we had a great time moment. U so we we had a great time mapping out what we wanted to cover and mapping out what we wanted to cover and mapping out what we wanted to cover and then for an entire year we worked this then for an entire year we worked this then for an entire year we worked this out in the context of a a local church out in the context of a a local church out in the context of a a local church there in London. We worked on one there in London. We worked on one there in London. We worked on one question a week uh kind of working our question a week uh kind of working our question a week uh kind of working our way through this, sending it out for way through this, sending it out for way through this, sending it out for feedback with friends, pastors, other uh feedback with friends, pastors, other uh feedback with friends, pastors, other uh theologians, other people that could theologians, other people that could theologians, other people that could speak into it. And then we spent uh speak into it. And then we spent uh speak into it. And then we spent uh roughly the next part of the next year roughly the next part of the next year roughly the next part of the next year going through and then revising based on going through and then revising based on going through and then revising based on all of that feedback. So, uh this really

all of that feedback. So, uh this really all of that feedback. So, uh this really was put together in the throws of local was put together in the throws of local was put together in the throws of local church ministry and struggle and church ministry and struggle and church ministry and struggle and challenge in in a in a very secular challenge in in a in a very secular challenge in in a in a very secular context. And we hope that that part of context. And we hope that that part of context. And we hope that that part of the origin, how it came together and the origin, how it came together and the origin, how it came together and then how we kept refining it is going to then how we kept refining it is going to then how we kept refining it is going to to mean that the tool is just that much to mean that the tool is just that much to mean that the tool is just that much sharper for for churches to use today. sharper for for churches to use today. sharper for for churches to use today. >> Talking with Thomas West and Trevan Wax >> Talking with Thomas West and Trevan Wax >> Talking with Thomas West and Trevan Wax about the Gospel Way Catechism, 50 about the Gospel Way Catechism, 50 about the Gospel Way Catechism, 50 Truths that take on the world, published Truths that take on the world, published Truths that take on the world, published by Harvest House. Um Thomas, what kind by Harvest House. Um Thomas, what kind by Harvest House. Um Thomas, what kind of response would somebody give to say of response would somebody give to say of response would somebody give to say we don't need this? Thanks guys for the we don't need this? Thanks guys for the we don't need this? Thanks guys for the effort. Sounds like a really fun story effort. Sounds like a really fun story effort. Sounds like a really fun story hanging out in Oxford. That's pretty hanging out in Oxford. That's pretty hanging out in Oxford. That's pretty cool. Um Tim Keller contributed some cool. Um Tim Keller contributed some cool. Um Tim Keller contributed some things, but we don't really I don't things, but we don't really I don't things, but we don't really I don't really need this. Um would that be really need this. Um would that be really need this. Um would that be because maybe some would argue that we because maybe some would argue that we because maybe some would argue that we already have a cultural narrative that already have a cultural narrative that already have a cultural narrative that we can inhabit. Therefore, it's already we can inhabit. Therefore, it's already we can inhabit. Therefore, it's already pushing. It's already taking on the pushing. It's already taking on the pushing. It's already taking on the world. It's always pushing on the world.

world. It's always pushing on the world. world. It's always pushing on the world. Or we have scripture itself. Therefore, Or we have scripture itself. Therefore, Or we have scripture itself. Therefore, why would we need some kind of why would we need some kind of why would we need some kind of supplement like this? But uh what would supplement like this? But uh what would supplement like this? But uh what would be the dominant criticism that no, I'm be the dominant criticism that no, I'm be the dominant criticism that no, I'm not sure that we do need this today? not sure that we do need this today? not sure that we do need this today? Yeah, a lot of the people that uh I Yeah, a lot of the people that uh I Yeah, a lot of the people that uh I interacted with uh during the day before interacted with uh during the day before interacted with uh during the day before going home to write in London uh going home to write in London uh going home to write in London uh certainly thought we we didn't need certainly thought we we didn't need certainly thought we we didn't need this. Um the the the world gathered this. Um the the the world gathered this. Um the the the world gathered there in the Globe's capital. um from uh there in the Globe's capital. um from uh there in the Globe's capital. um from uh from from Aussies to to posh uh North from from Aussies to to posh uh North from from Aussies to to posh uh North Londoners to uh Irish Catholics. All I Londoners to uh Irish Catholics. All I Londoners to uh Irish Catholics. All I would draw all sorts of puzzling looks. would draw all sorts of puzzling looks. would draw all sorts of puzzling looks. Um I'm sorry. You're doing what? Um if Um I'm sorry. You're doing what? Um if Um I'm sorry. You're doing what? Um if anything, um didn't a few people try anything, um didn't a few people try anything, um didn't a few people try that and those books are old and dusty that and those books are old and dusty that and those books are old and dusty and they don't have a whole lot of uh and they don't have a whole lot of uh and they don't have a whole lot of uh revelence uh relevance and traction revelence uh relevance and traction revelence uh relevance and traction today. Um so we we don't need it in the today. Um so we we don't need it in the today. Um so we we don't need it in the sense that um but it's it's been tried sense that um but it's it's been tried sense that um but it's it's been tried and and found lacking, hasn't it? Um uh and and found lacking, hasn't it? Um uh and and found lacking, hasn't it? Um uh others um others around. It was others um others around. It was others um others around. It was interesting um having church uh having interesting um having church uh having interesting um having church uh having having friends in the kingdom um you having friends in the kingdom um you having friends in the kingdom um you know Pentecostals over here and high know Pentecostals over here and high know Pentecostals over here and high church Anglicans o over there um would church Anglicans o over there um would church Anglicans o over there um would draw some wonderings but wouldn't draw draw some wonderings but wouldn't draw draw some wonderings but wouldn't draw any wonderings like uh from you know any wonderings like uh from you know any wonderings like uh from you know your high church Anglicans you know like your high church Anglicans you know like your high church Anglicans you know like well it's not Westminster like well of well it's not Westminster like well of well it's not Westminster like well of course it's not Westminster we're not course it's not Westminster we're not course it's not Westminster we're not we're not trying to be Westminster we're we're not trying to be Westminster we're we're not trying to be Westminster we're trying to do something that Westminster trying to do something that Westminster trying to do something that Westminster um wasn't really trying to do we're um wasn't really trying to do we're um wasn't really trying to do we're trying to take on the popular cultural

trying to take on the popular cultural trying to take on the popular cultural stories and this leans upon the the stories and this leans upon the the stories and this leans upon the the great catechisms um that have that have great catechisms um that have that have great catechisms um that have that have gone before us. Um and with there that gone before us. Um and with there that gone before us. Um and with there that has become uh a very interesting part of has become uh a very interesting part of has become uh a very interesting part of the project. Um the the appetite and the the project. Um the the appetite and the the project. Um the the appetite and the reception for uh being people who are reception for uh being people who are reception for uh being people who are either steeped in katakesus and either steeped in katakesus and either steeped in katakesus and interested in like the good work that interested in like the good work that interested in like the good work that you and Tim Keller did together provide you and Tim Keller did together provide you and Tim Keller did together provide a an entry and a gateway through New a an entry and a gateway through New a an entry and a gateway through New City. Um or um others really City. Um or um others really City. Um or um others really appreciating part of the unique offer appreciating part of the unique offer appreciating part of the unique offer here. Not to say, you know, this is what here. Not to say, you know, this is what here. Not to say, you know, this is what separates the Baptists from the separates the Baptists from the separates the Baptists from the Presbyterians and on and on and on. Um, Presbyterians and on and on and on. Um, Presbyterians and on and on and on. Um, this is what a lot of like TGC this is what a lot of like TGC this is what a lot of like TGC Christianity could have in common. Um, Christianity could have in common. Um, Christianity could have in common. Um, that really helps us take the gospel to that really helps us take the gospel to that really helps us take the gospel to a missionary encounter with popular a missionary encounter with popular a missionary encounter with popular cultural stories. Um, that's been a cultural stories. Um, that's been a cultural stories. Um, that's been a rallying cry uh for many. Tim Keller did rallying cry uh for many. Tim Keller did rallying cry uh for many. Tim Keller did a an explanation. And I think he a an explanation. And I think he a an explanation. And I think he borrowed it from Harvey Khan or had borrowed it from Harvey Khan or had borrowed it from Harvey Khan or had learned about it engaging with Harvey learned about it engaging with Harvey learned about it engaging with Harvey Khan. He talked about why do we need Khan. He talked about why do we need Khan. He talked about why do we need something after Westminster? If something after Westminster? If something after Westminster? If Westminster is pure undistilled doctrine Westminster is pure undistilled doctrine Westminster is pure undistilled doctrine and we're all Baptists here, so we would and we're all Baptists here, so we would and we're all Baptists here, so we would say there's some reasons you might need say there's some reasons you might need say there's some reasons you might need to change that. But just say, okay, if to change that. But just say, okay, if to change that. But just say, okay, if we have Westminster, we have all these we have Westminster, we have all these we have Westminster, we have all these great we have H Highleberg, why would we great we have H Highleberg, why would we great we have H Highleberg, why would we need something else? And he pointed out need something else? And he pointed out need something else? And he pointed out how your cultural frame of reference how your cultural frame of reference how your cultural frame of reference dictates a very different outcome. So he dictates a very different outcome. So he dictates a very different outcome. So he said, 'Well, flip through H Highleberg, said, 'Well, flip through H Highleberg, said, 'Well, flip through H Highleberg, flip through Westminster, see what it flip through Westminster, see what it flip through Westminster, see what it says about how you're supposed to treat

says about how you're supposed to treat says about how you're supposed to treat your parents. Okay, now let's head to your parents. Okay, now let's head to your parents. Okay, now let's head to talk to Presbyterians in Korea. And what talk to Presbyterians in Korea. And what talk to Presbyterians in Korea. And what would be one of the first questions they would be one of the first questions they would be one of the first questions they would ask when they come to would ask when they come to would ask when they come to Christianity? How am I supposed to treat Christianity? How am I supposed to treat Christianity? How am I supposed to treat my ancestors? How am I supposed to treat my ancestors? How am I supposed to treat my ancestors? How am I supposed to treat my parents? It's a perfectly relevant my parents? It's a perfectly relevant my parents? It's a perfectly relevant question. It's one that scripture question. It's one that scripture question. It's one that scripture addresses in a lot of different ways, addresses in a lot of different ways, addresses in a lot of different ways, yet it's not one that's addressed by the yet it's not one that's addressed by the yet it's not one that's addressed by the catechisms. So it was his way of catechisms. So it was his way of catechisms. So it was his way of explaining we need to keep updating explaining we need to keep updating explaining we need to keep updating these not because the theology is wrong these not because the theology is wrong these not because the theology is wrong but because the cultural situation but because the cultural situation but because the cultural situation changes not only through the centuries changes not only through the centuries changes not only through the centuries but of course across cultures and now as but of course across cultures and now as but of course across cultures and now as you guys have been explaining here even you guys have been explaining here even you guys have been explaining here even within western culture the pre within western culture the pre within western culture the pre prevailing pluralism we see all over the prevailing pluralism we see all over the prevailing pluralism we see all over the place not only in in London but also place not only in in London but also place not only in in London but also downtown Nashville and even over there downtown Nashville and even over there downtown Nashville and even over there in in suburban suburban Mury'sboro in in suburban suburban Mury'sboro in in suburban suburban Mury'sboro Murreey'sboro. Uh Thomas, you you've Murreey'sboro. Uh Thomas, you you've Murreey'sboro. Uh Thomas, you you've studied and written about the 20th studied and written about the 20th studied and written about the 20th century missionary Leslie Numigan and he century missionary Leslie Numigan and he century missionary Leslie Numigan and he famously saw his native Great Britain famously saw his native Great Britain famously saw his native Great Britain differently when he returned from the differently when he returned from the differently when he returned from the mission field in in India. You're back mission field in in India. You're back mission field in in India. You're back in the United States after planting a in the United States after planting a in the United States after planting a church in London. How do you see the church in London. How do you see the church in London. How do you see the United States differently now?

United States differently now? United States differently now? first to acknowledge the the massive gap first to acknowledge the the massive gap first to acknowledge the the massive gap between um Nubigan and West and uh the between um Nubigan and West and uh the between um Nubigan and West and uh the other one just to say you know he was other one just to say you know he was other one just to say you know he was really benefited from you know a full really benefited from you know a full really benefited from you know a full missionary career overseas where the the missionary career overseas where the the missionary career overseas where the the Lord only gave us a short uh 5-year Lord only gave us a short uh 5-year Lord only gave us a short uh 5-year journey. Um the the top two uh they come journey. Um the the top two uh they come journey. Um the the top two uh they come to mind straight away I do think that to mind straight away I do think that to mind straight away I do think that return trip to the American South. It's return trip to the American South. It's return trip to the American South. It's uh with all due respect um oh my uh with all due respect um oh my uh with all due respect um oh my goodness uh the prevailing wealth and oh goodness uh the prevailing wealth and oh goodness uh the prevailing wealth and oh my goodness um all the waste my goodness um all the waste my goodness um all the waste and the systems the the allocations the and the systems the the allocations the and the systems the the allocations the the structures uh very much a a what the structures uh very much a a what the structures uh very much a a what could be um church planting you know could be um church planting you know could be um church planting you know it's uh try to plant with an abundance it's uh try to plant with an abundance it's uh try to plant with an abundance mindset but aware of the the resources mindset but aware of the the resources mindset but aware of the the resources that are available to you. um yeah, as a that are available to you. um yeah, as a that are available to you. um yeah, as a as a Baptist sent out by a coalition of as a Baptist sent out by a coalition of as a Baptist sent out by a coalition of Baptist churches to go plant a church in Baptist churches to go plant a church in Baptist churches to go plant a church in Northwest London. And um then you return Northwest London. And um then you return Northwest London. And um then you return and it's oh my goodness, like all all and it's oh my goodness, like all all and it's oh my goodness, like all all the resource, all the money, um all all the resource, all the money, um all all the resource, all the money, um all all the potential. It's also the value of um the potential. It's also the value of um the potential. It's also the value of um having um moved out of your hometown, having um moved out of your hometown, having um moved out of your hometown, the value of moving out of your home the value of moving out of your home the value of moving out of your home state, uh the value of having lived in state, uh the value of having lived in state, uh the value of having lived in another region in your country, that the another region in your country, that the another region in your country, that the value of having spent some time value of having spent some time value of having spent some time overseas. Um it does help it does help overseas. Um it does help it does help overseas. Um it does help it does help translate to where you can uh you can translate to where you can uh you can translate to where you can uh you can you can enter back in uh perhaps uh some

you can enter back in uh perhaps uh some you can enter back in uh perhaps uh some other time. Um, we could just even talk other time. Um, we could just even talk other time. Um, we could just even talk politics and all the ins and outs of it, politics and all the ins and outs of it, politics and all the ins and outs of it, but you know, being um being right there but you know, being um being right there but you know, being um being right there in London. Um, it's it's it's just so in London. Um, it's it's it's just so in London. Um, it's it's it's just so different with a three four party different with a three four party different with a three four party system, you know, at times and all the system, you know, at times and all the system, you know, at times and all the different contingencies and how different contingencies and how different contingencies and how Christians uh really wouldn't go in a in Christians uh really wouldn't go in a in Christians uh really wouldn't go in a in a block, but very diverse compared to a block, but very diverse compared to a block, but very diverse compared to the South. Just to acknowledge a big the South. Just to acknowledge a big the South. Just to acknowledge a big point of difference as well. point of difference as well. point of difference as well. >> Yeah, a lot of substantial differences >> Yeah, a lot of substantial differences >> Yeah, a lot of substantial differences there. going back to the course that I there. going back to the course that I there. going back to the course that I teach in cultural apologetics. One of teach in cultural apologetics. One of teach in cultural apologetics. One of the the first exercise actually we do in the the first exercise actually we do in the the first exercise actually we do in there is a personal narrative. Um it's there is a personal narrative. Um it's there is a personal narrative. Um it's using using some of the the perspectives using using some of the the perspectives using using some of the the perspectives of disinculturation of disinculturation of disinculturation tell people understand to be an tell people understand to be an tell people understand to be an effective teacher let alone an effective effective teacher let alone an effective effective teacher let alone an effective missionary let alone an effective missionary let alone an effective missionary let alone an effective cultural apologist. You need to be able cultural apologist. You need to be able cultural apologist. You need to be able to see yourself in your own culture from to see yourself in your own culture from to see yourself in your own culture from the outside. And so I know Thomas, you the outside. And so I know Thomas, you the outside. And so I know Thomas, you and I have talked about this before, but and I have talked about this before, but and I have talked about this before, but a lot of Americans have a hard time in a lot of Americans have a hard time in a lot of Americans have a hard time in Great Britain because they think the Great Britain because they think the Great Britain because they think the culture is basically the same. Same culture is basically the same. Same culture is basically the same. Same language, um, a lot of same ethnicities, language, um, a lot of same ethnicities, language, um, a lot of same ethnicities, a lot of shared history. Therefore, it's a lot of shared history. Therefore, it's a lot of shared history. Therefore, it's going to be pretty going to be pretty going to be pretty going to be pretty going to be pretty going to be pretty similar. Then the culture shock really similar. Then the culture shock really similar. Then the culture shock really gets them. I think a lot of it's because gets them. I think a lot of it's because gets them. I think a lot of it's because they've never learned to see their home they've never learned to see their home they've never learned to see their home territory as an outsider. They've always territory as an outsider. They've always territory as an outsider. They've always been an insider, so they just don't been an insider, so they just don't been an insider, so they just don't understand what it's like. And I think understand what it's like. And I think understand what it's like. And I think that's especially true of a lot of that's especially true of a lot of that's especially true of a lot of American missionaries who come from the American missionaries who come from the American missionaries who come from the South where it's a very different South where it's a very different South where it's a very different experience than it is in a lot of other experience than it is in a lot of other experience than it is in a lot of other parts of the country outside of certain parts of the country outside of certain parts of the country outside of certain pockets within the Midwest. So, um, no

pockets within the Midwest. So, um, no pockets within the Midwest. So, um, no doubt when you're engaging in a project doubt when you're engaging in a project doubt when you're engaging in a project like this, it's helping people to see like this, it's helping people to see like this, it's helping people to see where the where the scriptures where the where the where the scriptures where the where the where the scriptures where the Christian tradition will confront their Christian tradition will confront their Christian tradition will confront their own culture that they've inherited while own culture that they've inherited while own culture that they've inherited while also affirming elements of common grace also affirming elements of common grace also affirming elements of common grace in there. But it's something we all have in there. But it's something we all have in there. But it's something we all have to do as missionaries, but something we to do as missionaries, but something we to do as missionaries, but something we increasingly because of the pluralism increasingly because of the pluralism increasingly because of the pluralism you guys are talking about here have to you guys are talking about here have to you guys are talking about here have to do wherever we are um in the United do wherever we are um in the United do wherever we are um in the United States, even coming back to the American States, even coming back to the American States, even coming back to the American South. South. South. >> Uh Trevan, you have a whole chapter >> Uh Trevan, you have a whole chapter >> Uh Trevan, you have a whole chapter devoted to what we can learn from devoted to what we can learn from devoted to what we can learn from Israel's sacrificial system. Now, Israel's sacrificial system. Now, Israel's sacrificial system. Now, Leviticus is not exactly what I Leviticus is not exactly what I Leviticus is not exactly what I associate with our secular age. Why give associate with our secular age. Why give associate with our secular age. Why give one of 50 chapters to explaining that one of 50 chapters to explaining that one of 50 chapters to explaining that Old Testament book? Well, I don't think Old Testament book? Well, I don't think Old Testament book? Well, I don't think you can make sense of the storyline of you can make sense of the storyline of you can make sense of the storyline of the Bible without it. So, one of the the the Bible without it. So, one of the the the Bible without it. So, one of the the reasons, even though I do realize a lot reasons, even though I do realize a lot reasons, even though I do realize a lot of people in their ambitious plans to of people in their ambitious plans to of people in their ambitious plans to read through the Bible in a year, uh read through the Bible in a year, uh read through the Bible in a year, uh start to uh trudge a little bit when start to uh trudge a little bit when start to uh trudge a little bit when they get to Leviticus, some of the the they get to Leviticus, some of the the they get to Leviticus, some of the the sacrificial details and things with the sacrificial details and things with the sacrificial details and things with the temple and whatnot. Um, this is one of temple and whatnot. Um, this is one of temple and whatnot. Um, this is one of those places where though as Thomas and those places where though as Thomas and those places where though as Thomas and I were were discussing the breadth of I were were discussing the breadth of I were were discussing the breadth of what we wanted to cover, what we wanted to cover, what we wanted to cover, you're still constrained by the Bible, you're still constrained by the Bible, you're still constrained by the Bible, right? Like you the the the Bible right? Like you the the the Bible right? Like you the the the Bible storyline still has to be a constraining storyline still has to be a constraining storyline still has to be a constraining factor. That's the norm. There are factor. That's the norm. There are factor. That's the norm. There are certain there are certain things you're certain there are certain things you're certain there are certain things you're going to have to address. That's right.

going to have to address. That's right. going to have to address. That's right. That's right. Uh you're you're there are That's right. Uh you're you're there are That's right. Uh you're you're there are certain things you're going to have to certain things you're going to have to certain things you're going to have to address address address >> because the Bible makes you address >> because the Bible makes you address >> because the Bible makes you address them. The Bible puts this in the in them. The Bible puts this in the in them. The Bible puts this in the in front of you as you know sometimes front of you as you know sometimes front of you as you know sometimes you'll hear people say this Colin I know you'll hear people say this Colin I know you'll hear people say this Colin I know you've heard this as well um and I and I you've heard this as well um and I and I you've heard this as well um and I and I I I appreciate the sentiment of uh you I I appreciate the sentiment of uh you I I appreciate the sentiment of uh you know find out what questions the people know find out what questions the people know find out what questions the people in your culture are asking and then in your culture are asking and then in your culture are asking and then answer those questions with the gospel. answer those questions with the gospel. answer those questions with the gospel. The reality is though that is true. The reality is though that is true. The reality is though that is true. That's a great starting point. But the That's a great starting point. But the That's a great starting point. But the Bible presses upon us questions that the Bible presses upon us questions that the Bible presses upon us questions that the culture may not even be asking. culture may not even be asking. culture may not even be asking. >> Right. Yeah. that still we have to to >> Right. Yeah. that still we have to to >> Right. Yeah. that still we have to to drive toward. Um, Leviticus though, I drive toward. Um, Leviticus though, I drive toward. Um, Leviticus though, I don't think this one's as hard as it may don't think this one's as hard as it may don't think this one's as hard as it may it may seem. If you're thinking about it may seem. If you're thinking about it may seem. If you're thinking about the sacrificial system and the need for the sacrificial system and the need for the sacrificial system and the need for a perfect sacrifice and a mediator, um, a perfect sacrifice and a mediator, um, a perfect sacrifice and a mediator, um, we actually have all kinds of there's we actually have all kinds of there's we actually have all kinds of there's all kinds of cultural resonance with all kinds of cultural resonance with all kinds of cultural resonance with this question. uh you see you see it in this question. uh you see you see it in this question. uh you see you see it in in you know the the the need for in you know the the the need for in you know the the the need for sacrifice the ex exemplary sacrifices in sacrifice the ex exemplary sacrifices in sacrifice the ex exemplary sacrifices in some of the great stories of our time some of the great stories of our time some of the great stories of our time that we continue to go back to even as that we continue to go back to even as that we continue to go back to even as secular people uh you see uh secular people uh you see uh secular people uh you see uh scapegoating take place uh where you scapegoating take place uh where you scapegoating take place uh where you know all the sort of guilt or blame for know all the sort of guilt or blame for know all the sort of guilt or blame for a particular uh injustice or problem is a particular uh injustice or problem is a particular uh injustice or problem is is is put on somebody who's then sort of is is put on somebody who's then sort of is is put on somebody who's then sort of driven out. We see that in with the the driven out. We see that in with the the driven out. We see that in with the the the merciless moralistic cancel culture the merciless moralistic cancel culture the merciless moralistic cancel culture that you have on social media and the that you have on social media and the that you have on social media and the mob mentality and whatnot. So, it's all

mob mentality and whatnot. So, it's all mob mentality and whatnot. So, it's all still here whether people recognize the still here whether people recognize the still here whether people recognize the relevance of it immediately or not. relevance of it immediately or not. relevance of it immediately or not. Thankfully, the Bible puts this on the Thankfully, the Bible puts this on the Thankfully, the Bible puts this on the table as something that must be table as something that must be table as something that must be incorporated uh in order for us to be incorporated uh in order for us to be incorporated uh in order for us to be faithful to the biblical storyline. But faithful to the biblical storyline. But faithful to the biblical storyline. But it's not really that difficult to move it's not really that difficult to move it's not really that difficult to move from the sacrificial system of Leviticus from the sacrificial system of Leviticus from the sacrificial system of Leviticus to modern-day to modern-day to modern-day uh idols and the things that we uh idols and the things that we uh idols and the things that we sacrifice for. I mean idols always sacrifice for. I mean idols always sacrifice for. I mean idols always demand blood sacrifice, right? And we we demand blood sacrifice, right? And we we demand blood sacrifice, right? And we we are part of that sort of sacrificial are part of that sort of sacrificial are part of that sort of sacrificial ethos even even today. And even ethos even even today. And even ethos even even today. And even non-Christians or close to being non-Christians or close to being non-Christians or close to being Christians, we hope like people like Christians, we hope like people like Christians, we hope like people like Jordan Peterson and others are are Jordan Peterson and others are are Jordan Peterson and others are are demonstrating the relevance of of that. demonstrating the relevance of of that. demonstrating the relevance of of that. And so, uh, so this is one of those And so, uh, so this is one of those And so, uh, so this is one of those areas where I think the the the biblical areas where I think the the the biblical areas where I think the the the biblical storyline presses us into a particular storyline presses us into a particular storyline presses us into a particular area, but then you you dig deep enough, area, but then you you dig deep enough, area, but then you you dig deep enough, you realize culturally it's just as you realize culturally it's just as you realize culturally it's just as relevant as it always has been. relevant as it always has been. relevant as it always has been. >> Yeah. Helping us to to see what Gerard >> Yeah. Helping us to to see what Gerard >> Yeah. Helping us to to see what Gerard had pointed out, helping us to had pointed out, helping us to had pointed out, helping us to understand the timelessness of this, understand the timelessness of this, understand the timelessness of this, that whether it's Leviticus, whether that whether it's Leviticus, whether that whether it's Leviticus, whether it's today's cancel culture, or anything it's today's cancel culture, or anything it's today's cancel culture, or anything in between, there are always these these in between, there are always these these in between, there are always these these dynamics. Sin requires a sacrifice. Um dynamics. Sin requires a sacrifice. Um dynamics. Sin requires a sacrifice. Um Trevan, you are you straddle the worlds Trevan, you are you straddle the worlds Trevan, you are you straddle the worlds that don't always align between that don't always align between that don't always align between spiritual formation on the one side and spiritual formation on the one side and spiritual formation on the one side and then confessions and catechisms on the then confessions and catechisms on the then confessions and catechisms on the other side. How do you see the spiritual other side. How do you see the spiritual other side. How do you see the spiritual formation movement playing out? I know formation movement playing out? I know formation movement playing out? I know something you and I have talked about something you and I have talked about something you and I have talked about together on your podcast, but how might

together on your podcast, but how might together on your podcast, but how might you want this resource to be able to you want this resource to be able to you want this resource to be able to inform that spiritual formation movement inform that spiritual formation movement inform that spiritual formation movement that's especially popular today, that's especially popular today, that's especially popular today, especially among Gen Z? especially among Gen Z? especially among Gen Z? >> Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting >> Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting >> Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting you're talking about me straddling that. you're talking about me straddling that. you're talking about me straddling that. didn't really think about that until um didn't really think about that until um didn't really think about that until um about a year or so a ago I was uh maybe about a year or so a ago I was uh maybe about a year or so a ago I was uh maybe a year and a half or I was meeting with a year and a half or I was meeting with a year and a half or I was meeting with an editor a mutual friend of ours who an editor a mutual friend of ours who an editor a mutual friend of ours who who said something to the effect of who said something to the effect of who said something to the effect of Trevan you like do you realize how this Trevan you like do you realize how this Trevan you like do you realize how this is all coming together you got the big is all coming together you got the big is all coming together you got the big storyline of the Bible and the gospel storyline of the Bible and the gospel storyline of the Bible and the gospel project but then you've got this focus project but then you've got this focus project but then you've got this focus on credle truth and the thrill of on credle truth and the thrill of on credle truth and the thrill of orthodoxy and you got these prayer orthodoxy and you got these prayer orthodoxy and you got these prayer guides that take you through you know guides that take you through you know guides that take you through you know the the the Bible so you're praying the the the Bible so you're praying the the the Bible so you're praying through the Bibles you've got the the through the Bibles you've got the the through the Bibles you've got the the formational part now you're doing the formational part now you're doing the formational part now you're doing the catechism. [laughter] And I hadn't catechism. [laughter] And I hadn't catechism. [laughter] And I hadn't thought about sort of those elements all thought about sort of those elements all thought about sort of those elements all coming together. But at the end of the coming together. But at the end of the coming together. But at the end of the day, um my heart is to help the church day, um my heart is to help the church day, um my heart is to help the church with tools as whatever tools that that I with tools as whatever tools that that I with tools as whatever tools that that I can help with um that will be sharp for can help with um that will be sharp for can help with um that will be sharp for particular use. Um, and I think the that particular use. Um, and I think the that particular use. Um, and I think the that returning to catechism, returning to catechism, returning to catechism, uh, something that Tim Keller was uh, something that Tim Keller was uh, something that Tim Keller was talking about in the last years of life, talking about in the last years of life, talking about in the last years of life, also something that Ji Packer talked a also something that Ji Packer talked a also something that Ji Packer talked a lot about his the last decade of his lot about his the last decade of his lot about his the last decade of his life as well. This need for kateesus. It life as well. This need for kateesus. It life as well. This need for kateesus. It is an ancient tool that if dusted off is an ancient tool that if dusted off is an ancient tool that if dusted off and used in the right way, uh can can and used in the right way, uh can can and used in the right way, uh can can help train our minds, can be part of help train our minds, can be part of help train our minds, can be part of God's uh of the spirit's renewing of our God's uh of the spirit's renewing of our God's uh of the spirit's renewing of our minds so that we're able to to see

minds so that we're able to to see minds so that we're able to to see things correctly. We're able to see the things correctly. We're able to see the things correctly. We're able to see the Bible aresh, but then also see our world Bible aresh, but then also see our world Bible aresh, but then also see our world through a a biblical lens. Um I'm glad through a a biblical lens. Um I'm glad through a a biblical lens. Um I'm glad there's the spiritual formation there's the spiritual formation there's the spiritual formation conversation happening among Gen Z. Uh, conversation happening among Gen Z. Uh, conversation happening among Gen Z. Uh, some of it's eclectic, some of it's sort some of it's eclectic, some of it's sort some of it's eclectic, some of it's sort of all over the place, some of it's of all over the place, some of it's of all over the place, some of it's pulling from whatever you can find. That pulling from whatever you can find. That pulling from whatever you can find. That simply demonstrates, I think, the hunger simply demonstrates, I think, the hunger simply demonstrates, I think, the hunger for handles and tools and things that for handles and tools and things that for handles and tools and things that you could you could put together. There you could you could put together. There you could you could put together. There there is always the danger there, I there is always the danger there, I there is always the danger there, I think, of of thinking that a technique think, of of thinking that a technique think, of of thinking that a technique is going to be the silver bullet that is going to be the silver bullet that is going to be the silver bullet that brings about spiritual growth. Right? brings about spiritual growth. Right? brings about spiritual growth. Right? just the get the right catechism or the just the get the right catechism or the just the get the right catechism or the right prayer guide or the right prayer right prayer guide or the right prayer right prayer guide or the right prayer practice or the you know the right Bible practice or the you know the right Bible practice or the you know the right Bible reading plan or whatever it might be uh reading plan or whatever it might be uh reading plan or whatever it might be uh that that emphasis on technique that that emphasis on technique that that emphasis on technique uh is is one that we have to avoid uh is is one that we have to avoid uh is is one that we have to avoid because the the spirit's work in us does because the the spirit's work in us does because the the spirit's work in us does not happen just by having the right not happen just by having the right not happen just by having the right tools. tools can be useful in the hands tools. tools can be useful in the hands tools. tools can be useful in the hands of the spirit but tools are not what are of the spirit but tools are not what are of the spirit but tools are not what are determinative in in that the word of God determinative in in that the word of God determinative in in that the word of God is what matters. Uh communion with God is what matters. Uh communion with God is what matters. Uh communion with God is what matters. Communion with God in is what matters. Communion with God in is what matters. Communion with God in the context of his people is what the context of his people is what the context of his people is what matters. And so those are the matters. And so those are the matters. And so those are the non-negotiable elements. And I think non-negotiable elements. And I think non-negotiable elements. And I think it's important for Gen Z listeners to to it's important for Gen Z listeners to to it's important for Gen Z listeners to to to recognize the centrality of the word to recognize the centrality of the word to recognize the centrality of the word in this. I think Matthew Bingham's uh in this. I think Matthew Bingham's uh in this. I think Matthew Bingham's uh book is a good contribution in this

book is a good contribution in this book is a good contribution in this direction just simply demonstrating the direction just simply demonstrating the direction just simply demonstrating the amount of word centered spiritual form amount of word centered spiritual form amount of word centered spiritual form formative practice uh practices that are formative practice uh practices that are formative practice uh practices that are already in uh the evangelical tradition already in uh the evangelical tradition already in uh the evangelical tradition that we need to be aware of. we need to that we need to be aware of. we need to that we need to be aware of. we need to be coming back to. And I hope that this be coming back to. And I hope that this be coming back to. And I hope that this this catechism tool is one tool of many this catechism tool is one tool of many this catechism tool is one tool of many that could be used as people are seeking that could be used as people are seeking that could be used as people are seeking to to see themselves renewed, see to to see themselves renewed, see to to see themselves renewed, see themselves changed by the gospel over themselves changed by the gospel over themselves changed by the gospel over time. I love that, Trevan. We got a time. I love that, Trevan. We got a time. I love that, Trevan. We got a couple more questions here with Thomas couple more questions here with Thomas couple more questions here with Thomas West and Trevan Wax talking about the West and Trevan Wax talking about the West and Trevan Wax talking about the Gospel Way Catechism, 50 truths that Gospel Way Catechism, 50 truths that Gospel Way Catechism, 50 truths that take on the world. Um, Thomas, since the take on the world. Um, Thomas, since the take on the world. Um, Thomas, since the book has been published, been out a book has been published, been out a book has been published, been out a little bit, how have you been encouraged little bit, how have you been encouraged little bit, how have you been encouraged by it usage? by it usage? by it usage? >> It's been great hearing from people. Um, >> It's been great hearing from people. Um, >> It's been great hearing from people. Um, hey, this is helpful. Uh, wow, this is hey, this is helpful. Uh, wow, this is hey, this is helpful. Uh, wow, this is this is useful. Uh, one of the one of this is useful. Uh, one of the one of this is useful. Uh, one of the one of the early reviews came in um through a the early reviews came in um through a the early reviews came in um through a friend of the kids uh parents here here friend of the kids uh parents here here friend of the kids uh parents here here in Nashville um where she said, "I in Nashville um where she said, "I in Nashville um where she said, "I didn't know how much of that cultural didn't know how much of that cultural didn't know how much of that cultural story uh I was wrapped up in." And story uh I was wrapped up in." And story uh I was wrapped up in." And working through the catechism, it it working through the catechism, it it working through the catechism, it it helped flag that for me. Um I I've also helped flag that for me. Um I I've also helped flag that for me. Um I I've also noticed it's almost like some noticed it's almost like some noticed it's almost like some synthesizing is taking place. some some synthesizing is taking place. some some synthesizing is taking place. some some doctrines get too high and others too doctrines get too high and others too doctrines get too high and others too low. So, some cultural narratives uh low. So, some cultural narratives uh low. So, some cultural narratives uh mixed in. They're getting filtered out mixed in. They're getting filtered out mixed in. They're getting filtered out through this, which is really really through this, which is really really through this, which is really really encouraging. And others um synthesizing.

encouraging. And others um synthesizing. encouraging. And others um synthesizing. Oh, I had way too much stock here. Um Oh, I had way too much stock here. Um Oh, I had way too much stock here. Um it's not going to be that big of a deal. it's not going to be that big of a deal. it's not going to be that big of a deal. And this one's Oh, I didn't know we need And this one's Oh, I didn't know we need And this one's Oh, I didn't know we need to bring that up as well. Um it's it's a to bring that up as well. Um it's it's a to bring that up as well. Um it's it's a it's really special. I mean, for me, uh it's really special. I mean, for me, uh it's really special. I mean, for me, uh first uh published book in this fashion. first uh published book in this fashion. first uh published book in this fashion. Um, it's been just been a joy to work Um, it's been just been a joy to work Um, it's been just been a joy to work with Trevan and and learn from him in with Trevan and and learn from him in with Trevan and and learn from him in this. Um, but getting to see a written this. Um, but getting to see a written this. Um, but getting to see a written word out there encouraging and and word out there encouraging and and word out there encouraging and and helping people along is uh is really helping people along is uh is really helping people along is uh is really rewarding. But I'd say the cultural rewarding. But I'd say the cultural rewarding. But I'd say the cultural narratives getting filtered out and the narratives getting filtered out and the narratives getting filtered out and the doctrinal synthesizing um those have doctrinal synthesizing um those have doctrinal synthesizing um those have been particularly encouraging. been particularly encouraging. been particularly encouraging. >> Trevan, let's close on this. Let's say >> Trevan, let's close on this. Let's say >> Trevan, let's close on this. Let's say you guys revisit this project in 20 you guys revisit this project in 20 you guys revisit this project in 20 years. You will still look like a very years. You will still look like a very years. You will still look like a very young, vibrant man. There's no doubt young, vibrant man. There's no doubt young, vibrant man. There's no doubt about it. about it. about it. >> But you and I will hope so. >> But you and I will hope so. >> But you and I will hope so. >> You and I will be getting ready to >> You and I will be getting ready to >> You and I will be getting ready to retire. retire. retire. >> What questions do you think we'll need >> What questions do you think we'll need >> What questions do you think we'll need to be prepared to answer then? to be prepared to answer then? to be prepared to answer then? >> Oh, was such a good question. Um I I >> Oh, was such a good question. Um I I >> Oh, was such a good question. Um I I think we've we've got a few things that think we've we've got a few things that think we've we've got a few things that are pointing in a direction that are pointing in a direction that are pointing in a direction that actually came about through uh this actually came about through uh this actually came about through uh this conversation. And you know the the conversation. And you know the the conversation. And you know the the transgender ideology was sort of all transgender ideology was sort of all transgender ideology was sort of all gender theories were all the rage when gender theories were all the rage when gender theories were all the rage when we were in the middle of this and that's we were in the middle of this and that's we were in the middle of this and that's we probably we were at the peak of that we probably we were at the peak of that we probably we were at the peak of that when we were working on this is probably when we were working on this is probably when we were working on this is probably subsiding at some level.

subsiding at some level. subsiding at some level. >> Um but I really think the other trans >> Um but I really think the other trans >> Um but I really think the other trans conversation is a big one and it's one conversation is a big one and it's one conversation is a big one and it's one that we had to address in this was which that we had to address in this was which that we had to address in this was which was transhumanism. was transhumanism. was transhumanism. >> Uh the the idea of extending life and >> Uh the the idea of extending life and >> Uh the the idea of extending life and consciousness uh uh you know the uh some consciousness uh uh you know the uh some consciousness uh uh you know the uh some of some of what what is happening with of some of what what is happening with of some of what what is happening with that that movement. I do wonder if in 20 that that movement. I do wonder if in 20 that that movement. I do wonder if in 20 years looking back, one of the things years looking back, one of the things years looking back, one of the things that will need to be uh pressed upon uh that will need to be uh pressed upon uh that will need to be uh pressed upon uh in in katakesus is some of the questions in in katakesus is some of the questions in in katakesus is some of the questions about bioeththics uh at a at a more about bioeththics uh at a at a more about bioeththics uh at a at a more granular level than what we have here. granular level than what we have here. granular level than what we have here. Um you know the the dignity and the Um you know the the dignity and the Um you know the the dignity and the value of human life is here but I do I value of human life is here but I do I value of human life is here but I do I do think that some of the questions do think that some of the questions do think that some of the questions around um uh uh you know just around around um uh uh you know just around around um uh uh you know just around different reproductive technologies and different reproductive technologies and different reproductive technologies and things are going to and mutual things are going to and mutual things are going to and mutual assistance in dying. assistance in dying. assistance in dying. >> Oh yes, things like that. >> Oh yes, things like that. >> Oh yes, things like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and all these things are are are are >> And and all these things are are are are >> And and all these things are are are are pressing against us in a way that may pressing against us in a way that may pressing against us in a way that may actually require their own questions at actually require their own questions at actually require their own questions at some point. Um rather than just sort of some point. Um rather than just sort of some point. Um rather than just sort of being nestled in some of the principles.

being nestled in some of the principles. being nestled in some of the principles. I don't think you're going to you're I don't think you're going to you're I don't think you're going to you're going to find many principles 20 years going to find many principles 20 years going to find many principles 20 years from now that that didn't cover some of from now that that didn't cover some of from now that that didn't cover some of these things. But I think in more detail these things. But I think in more detail these things. But I think in more detail uh is this is the way it always is, uh is this is the way it always is, uh is this is the way it always is, right? as cultural narratives rise and right? as cultural narratives rise and right? as cultural narratives rise and fall, you you find you've got to to to fall, you you find you've got to to to fall, you you find you've got to to to to take the the biblical truth and you to take the the biblical truth and you to take the the biblical truth and you have to use the sharp edges of biblical have to use the sharp edges of biblical have to use the sharp edges of biblical truth in different places at different truth in different places at different truth in different places at different times based on whatever is manifesting times based on whatever is manifesting times based on whatever is manifesting in the in the culture. But overall, the in the in the culture. But overall, the in the in the culture. But overall, the human heart is is human nature is the human heart is is human nature is the human heart is is human nature is the same. Uh the human heart is prone to same. Uh the human heart is prone to same. Uh the human heart is prone to different kinds of straying but uh different kinds of straying but uh different kinds of straying but uh always, you know, prone to to wander. always, you know, prone to to wander. always, you know, prone to to wander. And then we need uh the the the gospel And then we need uh the the the gospel And then we need uh the the the gospel and the solution of the gospel is always and the solution of the gospel is always and the solution of the gospel is always relevant as we look at sin, death, evil, relevant as we look at sin, death, evil, relevant as we look at sin, death, evil, and the the evil one. So uh so I I'll be and the the evil one. So uh so I I'll be and the the evil one. So uh so I I'll be curious to see if we revisit this curious to see if we revisit this curious to see if we revisit this conversation in 20 years looking almost conversation in 20 years looking almost conversation in 20 years looking almost the same of us. Hopefully the same of us. Hopefully the same of us. Hopefully >> I will not. But you will somehow the >> I will not. But you will somehow the >> I will not. But you will somehow the healing powers. [laughter] healing powers. [laughter] healing powers. [laughter] >> I may or may not be in possession of the >> I may or may not be in possession of the >> I may or may not be in possession of the ring of power. It's always true. It's ring of power. It's always true. It's ring of power. It's always true. It's true. Um it's funny. Hey, I think about true. Um it's funny. Hey, I think about true. Um it's funny. Hey, I think about that guys and I I just wrote down a that guys and I I just wrote down a that guys and I I just wrote down a couple questions. I said, I bet in 20 couple questions. I said, I bet in 20 couple questions. I said, I bet in 20 years we'll be asking the question, what years we'll be asking the question, what years we'll be asking the question, what is what is human? You know, what is is what is human? You know, what is is what is human? You know, what is humanity and what is truth? You think, humanity and what is truth? You think, humanity and what is truth? You think, hm. Yeah, that's basically just Genesis hm. Yeah, that's basically just Genesis hm. Yeah, that's basically just Genesis all over again. That's right. And the all over again. That's right. And the all over again. That's right. And the whole rest of the Bible. So, I go back whole rest of the Bible. So, I go back whole rest of the Bible. So, I go back to the question I was asking you,

to the question I was asking you, to the question I was asking you, Thomas, earlier. Is this new stuff or is Thomas, earlier. Is this new stuff or is Thomas, earlier. Is this new stuff or is this old stuff? Well, it's really new this old stuff? Well, it's really new this old stuff? Well, it's really new iterations of old stuff and the Bible iterations of old stuff and the Bible iterations of old stuff and the Bible still has the answers. They just have to still has the answers. They just have to still has the answers. They just have to be applied in some different ways and be applied in some different ways and be applied in some different ways and different truths need to be brought to different truths need to be brought to different truths need to be brought to bear at different times. [music] bear at different times. [music] bear at different times. [music] Well, I thank you guys for the interview Well, I thank you guys for the interview Well, I thank you guys for the interview today. Thanks for writing this book, The today. Thanks for writing this book, The today. Thanks for writing this book, The Gospel Way Catechism, published by Gospel Way Catechism, published by Gospel Way Catechism, published by Harvest House. Wonderful resources for Harvest House. Wonderful resources for Harvest House. Wonderful resources for for you, your family, your church. for you, your family, your church. for you, your family, your church. [music] Um, thanks for writing it, guys. [music] Um, thanks for writing it, guys. [music] Um, thanks for writing it, guys. Thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound Thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound Thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound today. today. today. >> Thanks so much for having us, Colin. >> Thanks so much for having us, Colin. >> Thanks so much for having us, Colin. Thanks, Colin. [music] Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, [music] when we're bound to remember, [music] when we're bound to remember, [music] when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.