Preparing Members for Death and Heaven (with Matt McCullough) [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 36]

[Music] [Music] We have overlaid a taboo on the subject We have overlaid a taboo on the subject We have overlaid a taboo on the subject such that if you talk about death, such that if you talk about death, such that if you talk about death, especially among younger people in a especially among younger people in a especially among younger people in a time that ought to be happy and time that ought to be happy and time that ought to be happy and funloving, you you you face a little bit funloving, you you you face a little bit funloving, you you you face a little bit of shame and ostracism for it. And no of shame and ostracism for it. And no of shame and ostracism for it. And no one is saying that. No one is is even one is saying that. No one is is even one is saying that. No one is is even maybe even self-consciously thinking maybe even self-consciously thinking maybe even self-consciously thinking that, but we're feeling that and we're that, but we're feeling that and we're that, but we're feeling that and we're not going there. There is a huge relief not going there. There is a huge relief not going there. There is a huge relief that I've seen people experience when that I've seen people experience when that I've seen people experience when you go there when they already have it you go there when they already have it you go there when they already have it on their mind. [Music] [Music] Welcome friends to the Everyday Pastor, Welcome friends to the Everyday Pastor, Welcome friends to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts of a podcast on the nuts and bolts of a podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Smithst Matt Smithst Matt Smithst >> and I'm L Duncan. >> and I'm L Duncan. >> and I'm L Duncan. >> And we are joined today by our friend >> And we are joined today by our friend >> And we are joined today by our friend Matt McCulla. Uh coming to us from Matt McCulla. Uh coming to us from Matt McCulla. Uh coming to us from Nashville. He pastors Edgefield Church. Nashville. He pastors Edgefield Church. Nashville. He pastors Edgefield Church. He's the author of some helpful books uh He's the author of some helpful books uh He's the author of some helpful books uh including Does God Love Everyone? which including Does God Love Everyone? which including Does God Love Everyone? which is a booklet put out in the church is a booklet put out in the church is a booklet put out in the church question series from nine marks as well question series from nine marks as well question series from nine marks as well as two other books that we in particular as two other books that we in particular as two other books that we in particular want to think with him about today as he want to think with him about today as he want to think with him about today as he helps us. A few years ago, he wrote helps us. A few years ago, he wrote helps us. A few years ago, he wrote Remember Death: The Surprising Path to Remember Death: The Surprising Path to Remember Death: The Surprising Path to Living Hope. And he has coming out this Living Hope. And he has coming out this Living Hope. And he has coming out this spring, spring of 2025, a sequel, spring, spring of 2025, a sequel, spring, spring of 2025, a sequel, Remember Heaven: Meditations on the Remember Heaven: Meditations on the Remember Heaven: Meditations on the World to Come for Life in the Meantime.

World to Come for Life in the Meantime. World to Come for Life in the Meantime. Obviously, there's overlap, uh, Remember Obviously, there's overlap, uh, Remember Obviously, there's overlap, uh, Remember Death and Remember Heaven, but they are Death and Remember Heaven, but they are Death and Remember Heaven, but they are distinct books, both of which I've read distinct books, both of which I've read distinct books, both of which I've read and benefited from uh, remarkably. So, and benefited from uh, remarkably. So, and benefited from uh, remarkably. So, I'm really excited uh, to have Matt with I'm really excited uh, to have Matt with I'm really excited uh, to have Matt with us today. Matt, thanks for being with us us today. Matt, thanks for being with us us today. Matt, thanks for being with us on the Everyday Pastor. on the Everyday Pastor. on the Everyday Pastor. >> Oh, brother, such a gift to be here. Uh, >> Oh, brother, such a gift to be here. Uh, >> Oh, brother, such a gift to be here. Uh, just so much respect for both of you just so much respect for both of you just so much respect for both of you guys and so glad you're doing this guys and so glad you're doing this guys and so glad you're doing this podcast. I've already enjoyed it and podcast. I've already enjoyed it and podcast. I've already enjoyed it and benefited from it myself. So, huge honor benefited from it myself. So, huge honor benefited from it myself. So, huge honor to be on here with you. to be on here with you. to be on here with you. >> What would you say have been Leg's top >> What would you say have been Leg's top >> What would you say have been Leg's top five quotes? five quotes? five quotes? >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Matt has all the best quotes. Matt, you >> Matt has all the best quotes. Matt, you >> Matt has all the best quotes. Matt, you don't don't stand back us here, buddy. don't don't stand back us here, buddy. don't don't stand back us here, buddy. You've got the best quotes. You've got the best quotes. You've got the best quotes. Uh Matt, uh in all seriousness, u what I Uh Matt, uh in all seriousness, u what I Uh Matt, uh in all seriousness, u what I so appreciate about uh your work on on so appreciate about uh your work on on so appreciate about uh your work on on the topic of death in heaven is that it the topic of death in heaven is that it the topic of death in heaven is that it thrusts us into the white hot center of thrusts us into the white hot center of thrusts us into the white hot center of the purpose for human existence and uh the purpose for human existence and uh the purpose for human existence and uh the purpose of pastoral ministry, the purpose of pastoral ministry, the purpose of pastoral ministry, preparing people to die well, to meet preparing people to die well, to meet preparing people to die well, to meet their maker, and hopefully um through um their maker, and hopefully um through um their maker, and hopefully um through um by grace through faith their savior uh by grace through faith their savior uh by grace through faith their savior uh with whom they'll they'll spend with whom they'll they'll spend with whom they'll they'll spend eternity.

eternity. eternity. And I wanted to to start this And I wanted to to start this And I wanted to to start this conversation um by referencing a book I conversation um by referencing a book I conversation um by referencing a book I read sometime over the last year, not by read sometime over the last year, not by read sometime over the last year, not by a Christian. Um it's called Outlive: The a Christian. Um it's called Outlive: The a Christian. Um it's called Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by a Science and Art of Longevity by a Science and Art of Longevity by a medical doctor named Peter Aia. Have you medical doctor named Peter Aia. Have you medical doctor named Peter Aia. Have you heard of this book, Matt? heard of this book, Matt? heard of this book, Matt? >> I have heard of it, but I have not read >> I have heard of it, but I have not read >> I have heard of it, but I have not read it. I do know what you're talking about. it. I do know what you're talking about. it. I do know what you're talking about. >> Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's not >> Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's not >> Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's not the kind of thing I would normally read, the kind of thing I would normally read, the kind of thing I would normally read, but I saw a lot of people commending it. but I saw a lot of people commending it. but I saw a lot of people commending it. Essentially it it talks about nutrition, Essentially it it talks about nutrition, Essentially it it talks about nutrition, exercise, sleep, emotional health. Uh exercise, sleep, emotional health. Uh exercise, sleep, emotional health. Uh but what interested me most was actually but what interested me most was actually but what interested me most was actually some of the conclus conclusions that Dr. some of the conclus conclusions that Dr. some of the conclus conclusions that Dr. Aia shares at the end. He had been on an Aia shares at the end. He had been on an Aia shares at the end. He had been on an obsessive kind of desperate quest to obsessive kind of desperate quest to obsessive kind of desperate quest to defy death. That's what the word defy death. That's what the word defy death. That's what the word longevity in the subtitle means. And longevity in the subtitle means. And longevity in the subtitle means. And it's become quite an industry today. it's become quite an industry today. it's become quite an industry today. There's all kinds of books on this idea There's all kinds of books on this idea There's all kinds of books on this idea of longevity. of longevity. of longevity. >> And here's how Dr. IA concludes the >> And here's how Dr. IA concludes the >> And here's how Dr. IA concludes the book.

book. book. He he writes, quote, I had long He he writes, quote, I had long He he writes, quote, I had long subscribed to a kind of Silicon Valley subscribed to a kind of Silicon Valley subscribed to a kind of Silicon Valley approach to longevity and health, approach to longevity and health, approach to longevity and health, believing it possible to hack our believing it possible to hack our believing it possible to hack our biology and hack it and hack it until we biology and hack it and hack it until we biology and hack it and hack it until we become these perfect little humanoids become these perfect little humanoids become these perfect little humanoids who live to be 120 years old. I used to who live to be 120 years old. I used to who live to be 120 years old. I used to be all about that, constantly tinkering be all about that, constantly tinkering be all about that, constantly tinkering or experimenting with new fasting or experimenting with new fasting or experimenting with new fasting protocols or sleep gadgets to maximize protocols or sleep gadgets to maximize protocols or sleep gadgets to maximize my own longevity. longevity was my own longevity. longevity was my own longevity. longevity was basically an engineering problem. Or so basically an engineering problem. Or so basically an engineering problem. Or so I thought. And then he says this, which I thought. And then he says this, which I thought. And then he says this, which coming from an unbeliever um really coming from an unbeliever um really coming from an unbeliever um really struck me. He he writes, "My obsession struck me. He he writes, "My obsession struck me. He he writes, "My obsession with longevity was really about my fear with longevity was really about my fear with longevity was really about my fear of dying. I was running away from dying of dying. I was running away from dying of dying. I was running away from dying as fast as I could. Yet at the same as fast as I could. Yet at the same as fast as I could. Yet at the same time, ironically, I was also avoiding time, ironically, I was also avoiding time, ironically, I was also avoiding actually living. The saddest part is actually living. The saddest part is actually living. The saddest part is that I wasted so much time being so that I wasted so much time being so that I wasted so much time being so detached, so miserable and so misguided, detached, so miserable and so misguided, detached, so miserable and so misguided, so much time pursuing an empty goal. And so much time pursuing an empty goal. And so much time pursuing an empty goal. And then he finishes by writing, "I had been then he finishes by writing, "I had been then he finishes by writing, "I had been obsessed about longevity for the wrong obsessed about longevity for the wrong obsessed about longevity for the wrong reason. I was not thinking about a long reason. I was not thinking about a long reason. I was not thinking about a long healthy life ahead. Instead, I was healthy life ahead. Instead, I was healthy life ahead. Instead, I was mourning the past. I was trapped by the mourning the past. I was trapped by the mourning the past. I was trapped by the pain that my past had caused and was pain that my past had caused and was pain that my past had caused and was continuing to cause. I wanted to live continuing to cause. I wanted to live continuing to cause. I wanted to live longer, I think, only because deep down longer, I think, only because deep down longer, I think, only because deep down I knew I needed more runway to try to I knew I needed more runway to try to I knew I needed more runway to try to make things right.

make things right. make things right. >> You better believe that I used that in a >> You better believe that I used that in a >> You better believe that I used that in a sermon intro. Um, sermon intro. Um, sermon intro. Um, if you're a preacher and you can't use if you're a preacher and you can't use if you're a preacher and you can't use that, then you you maybe do need to uh that, then you you maybe do need to uh that, then you you maybe do need to uh re rethink your your calling. But it it re rethink your your calling. But it it re rethink your your calling. But it it it it reminds us, of course, of what the it it reminds us, of course, of what the it it reminds us, of course, of what the author of Hebrews says in um Hebrews 2 author of Hebrews says in um Hebrews 2 author of Hebrews says in um Hebrews 2 about um the the reality of being about um the the reality of being about um the the reality of being enslaved to the fear of death as just enslaved to the fear of death as just enslaved to the fear of death as just part of what it means to live in a part of what it means to live in a part of what it means to live in a fallen world. So Matt, I I want to start fallen world. So Matt, I I want to start fallen world. So Matt, I I want to start there. Um, there. Um, there. Um, >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> How is uh this idea of longevity and and >> How is uh this idea of longevity and and >> How is uh this idea of longevity and and trying to hack away at at at at beating trying to hack away at at at at beating trying to hack away at at at at beating death something that rather than as death something that rather than as death something that rather than as believers resisting, we should lead our believers resisting, we should lead our believers resisting, we should lead our people to actually embrace the reality people to actually embrace the reality people to actually embrace the reality that we are going to die. And though that we are going to die. And though that we are going to die. And though that's a tragic thing, it's something that's a tragic thing, it's something that's a tragic thing, it's something that we don't have to run away from. I that we don't have to run away from. I that we don't have to run away from. I think maybe the best place to start, think maybe the best place to start, think maybe the best place to start, certainly a foundational place for me as certainly a foundational place for me as certainly a foundational place for me as I've thought about these issues over the I've thought about these issues over the I've thought about these issues over the the years is Psalm 90 the years is Psalm 90 the years is Psalm 90 because it hits the two notes that I because it hits the two notes that I because it hits the two notes that I want to I want to hit at I want to hit want to I want to hit at I want to hit want to I want to hit at I want to hit more than the than these two notes, but more than the than these two notes, but more than the than these two notes, but I always want to at least hit these I always want to at least hit these I always want to at least hit these notes with my people and my ministry to notes with my people and my ministry to notes with my people and my ministry to them. And that is uh the note of wisdom them. And that is uh the note of wisdom them. And that is uh the note of wisdom and the note of hope, both of which are and the note of hope, both of which are and the note of hope, both of which are affected by death awareness. So affected by death awareness. So affected by death awareness. So you know the the prayer at the at the you know the the prayer at the at the you know the the prayer at the at the conclusion of Psalm 90 is a prayer that conclusion of Psalm 90 is a prayer that conclusion of Psalm 90 is a prayer that the Lord will help us to number our days the Lord will help us to number our days the Lord will help us to number our days so that we can gain a heart of wisdom.

so that we can gain a heart of wisdom. so that we can gain a heart of wisdom. I think what the the author that you I think what the the author that you I think what the the author that you quoted was actually realizing from hard quoted was actually realizing from hard quoted was actually realizing from hard one experience is that he lived a life one experience is that he lived a life one experience is that he lived a life of foolishness because he had not of foolishness because he had not of foolishness because he had not numbered his days in the way that that numbered his days in the way that that numbered his days in the way that that psalm is praying for. You know honesty psalm is praying for. You know honesty psalm is praying for. You know honesty about the world is foundational for a about the world is foundational for a about the world is foundational for a life of wisdom. Foolishness is living in life of wisdom. Foolishness is living in life of wisdom. Foolishness is living in denial and nobody lives forever. Let's denial and nobody lives forever. Let's denial and nobody lives forever. Let's say he got what he had wanted and he had say he got what he had wanted and he had say he got what he had wanted and he had he had figured out how to hack the he had figured out how to hack the he had figured out how to hack the engineering problem that was life that engineering problem that was life that engineering problem that was life that lasted 120 years. I mean we're we're now lasted 120 years. I mean we're we're now lasted 120 years. I mean we're we're now living 80 years instead of 40 on average living 80 years instead of 40 on average living 80 years instead of 40 on average compared to 100 years ago. Do you think compared to 100 years ago. Do you think compared to 100 years ago. Do you think anybody's really getting a whole lot anybody's really getting a whole lot anybody's really getting a whole lot more out of those 40 years that in the more out of those 40 years that in the more out of those 40 years that in the grand scheme of things you think 40 grand scheme of things you think 40 grand scheme of things you think 40 extra is going to do much good then? No. extra is going to do much good then? No. extra is going to do much good then? No. If if it ends in death, as it does for If if it ends in death, as it does for If if it ends in death, as it does for everybody, you got to confront it sooner everybody, you got to confront it sooner everybody, you got to confront it sooner rather than later if you want to live a rather than later if you want to live a rather than later if you want to live a life of wisdom. And then I mean, but the life of wisdom. And then I mean, but the life of wisdom. And then I mean, but the glory of it for us as believers is that glory of it for us as believers is that glory of it for us as believers is that wisdom never leaves us desparing, but wisdom never leaves us desparing, but wisdom never leaves us desparing, but guides us on into the love of God. guides us on into the love of God. guides us on into the love of God. That's where Psalm 90 ends. Satisfy me That's where Psalm 90 ends. Satisfy me That's where Psalm 90 ends. Satisfy me in the morning with your steadfast love.

in the morning with your steadfast love. in the morning with your steadfast love. that teaching me to number my days to to that teaching me to number my days to to that teaching me to number my days to to live with an awareness that I'm not live with an awareness that I'm not live with an awareness that I'm not going to live forever is meant to drive going to live forever is meant to drive going to live forever is meant to drive us into the only thing that does last, us into the only thing that does last, us into the only thing that does last, the only hope for a life beyond the the only hope for a life beyond the the only hope for a life beyond the grave, and that's the love of the Lord grave, and that's the love of the Lord grave, and that's the love of the Lord that that never runs out and that gave that that never runs out and that gave that that never runs out and that gave us our lives in the first place. So, uh us our lives in the first place. So, uh us our lives in the first place. So, uh I I want to use death awareness I I want to use death awareness I I want to use death awareness uh to sort of push over all sorts of uh to sort of push over all sorts of uh to sort of push over all sorts of false hopes that interfere with and false hopes that interfere with and false hopes that interfere with and compete with the one and only hope that compete with the one and only hope that compete with the one and only hope that there is. Kimu compared like the the the there is. Kimu compared like the the the there is. Kimu compared like the the the big things we tend to lean on in our big things we tend to lean on in our big things we tend to lean on in our lives for meaning and substance as as lives for meaning and substance as as lives for meaning and substance as as nothing more than set pieces on a stage nothing more than set pieces on a stage nothing more than set pieces on a stage when viewed in light of death. Like from when viewed in light of death. Like from when viewed in light of death. Like from a distance they look they look solid. a distance they look they look solid. a distance they look they look solid. They look beautiful. They look like oh They look beautiful. They look like oh They look beautiful. They look like oh that that's okay that that would be a that that's okay that that would be a that that's okay that that would be a good life to live and death just boom good life to live and death just boom good life to live and death just boom just pushes them over one by one by one just pushes them over one by one by one just pushes them over one by one by one when you shine the the light of the when you shine the the light of the when you shine the the light of the truth onto them. truth onto them. truth onto them. >> And I'm okay with that. I actually think >> And I'm okay with that. I actually think >> And I'm okay with that. I actually think that's a good thing because I want the that's a good thing because I want the that's a good thing because I want the last man standing to be Jesus and he is. last man standing to be Jesus and he is. last man standing to be Jesus and he is. Uh I want one and only one comfort in Uh I want one and only one comfort in Uh I want one and only one comfort in life and death. Uh that I'm not my own.

life and death. Uh that I'm not my own. life and death. Uh that I'm not my own. At one point in your book, Remember At one point in your book, Remember At one point in your book, Remember Death, you you write once we've learned Death, you you write once we've learned Death, you you write once we've learned to see the shadow of death, we'll be to see the shadow of death, we'll be to see the shadow of death, we'll be able to apply the light of Christ, able to apply the light of Christ, able to apply the light of Christ, >> which implies that if we're not aware of >> which implies that if we're not aware of >> which implies that if we're not aware of death's shadow, death's shadow, death's shadow, >> then we're actually minimizing the glory >> then we're actually minimizing the glory >> then we're actually minimizing the glory that is available to us in enjoying that is available to us in enjoying that is available to us in enjoying >> who Jesus is for us. Um, and absolutely, >> who Jesus is for us. Um, and absolutely, >> who Jesus is for us. Um, and absolutely, >> Matt, I I want to hear from Lig in a >> Matt, I I want to hear from Lig in a >> Matt, I I want to hear from Lig in a moment, but just talk a little bit more moment, but just talk a little bit more moment, but just talk a little bit more about as you've been a pastor, how have about as you've been a pastor, how have about as you've been a pastor, how have you seen a an emphasis on death and you seen a an emphasis on death and you seen a an emphasis on death and preparing well for it actually help your preparing well for it actually help your preparing well for it actually help your people? people? people? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, that's, you know, that can be a Um, that's, you know, that can be a Um, that's, you know, that can be a tough question to answer in part because tough question to answer in part because tough question to answer in part because the fruit that we're laboring for is the fruit that we're laboring for is the fruit that we're laboring for is going to show up over the long haul. And going to show up over the long haul. And going to show up over the long haul. And I mean, ultimately, I think I'll be able I mean, ultimately, I think I'll be able I mean, ultimately, I think I'll be able to answer that question when I stand to answer that question when I stand to answer that question when I stand before the Lord before the Lord before the Lord with them with them with them and and see them survive the day of and and see them survive the day of and and see them survive the day of judgment.

judgment. judgment. >> That that's what I'm thinking of. That's >> That that's what I'm thinking of. That's >> That that's what I'm thinking of. That's what I'm longing for. That's what all what I'm longing for. That's what all what I'm longing for. That's what all this is meant to do. And so, and so I this is meant to do. And so, and so I this is meant to do. And so, and so I won't know fully until then. I also won't know fully until then. I also won't know fully until then. I also pastor a of youngish congregation always pastor a of youngish congregation always pastor a of youngish congregation always have and some of the uh the death book have and some of the uh the death book have and some of the uh the death book really came out of realizing really came out of realizing really came out of realizing >> that uh most of the friends that I was >> that uh most of the friends that I was >> that uh most of the friends that I was pastoring were in the early years of pastoring were in the early years of pastoring were in the early years of their life first couple of decades of their life first couple of decades of their life first couple of decades of their adult lives always climbing always their adult lives always climbing always their adult lives always climbing always always training establishing families always training establishing families always training establishing families you know doing the things that you do to you know doing the things that you do to you know doing the things that you do to set yourself up for the life that you set yourself up for the life that you set yourself up for the life that you that you hope to have uh and so what I'm that you hope to have uh and so what I'm that you hope to have uh and so what I'm hoping is that at least for this this hoping is that at least for this this hoping is that at least for this this phase of my life as a pastor, it's been phase of my life as a pastor, it's been phase of my life as a pastor, it's been mostly with with younger people that mostly with with younger people that mostly with with younger people that that they are less stressed out than that they are less stressed out than that they are less stressed out than they otherwise would be by the the work they otherwise would be by the the work they otherwise would be by the the work of trying to establish themselves that of trying to establish themselves that of trying to establish themselves that they are more aware than otherwise they they are more aware than otherwise they they are more aware than otherwise they would be of why Jesus is so relevant would be of why Jesus is so relevant would be of why Jesus is so relevant even though he doesn't promise them the even though he doesn't promise them the even though he doesn't promise them the things they spend a lot of their time things they spend a lot of their time things they spend a lot of their time trying to achieve. It's uh these are trying to achieve. It's uh these are trying to achieve. It's uh these are things that you have to keep reminding things that you have to keep reminding things that you have to keep reminding people of always every day, every week, people of always every day, every week, people of always every day, every week, every year from now till till the end.

every year from now till till the end. every year from now till till the end. So, it's not like they got there and I So, it's not like they got there and I So, it's not like they got there and I can say there's a person who's fully can say there's a person who's fully can say there's a person who's fully aware of the fact that their life is not aware of the fact that their life is not aware of the fact that their life is not going to last forever and therefore going to last forever and therefore going to last forever and therefore fully at home in the in the love of fully at home in the in the love of fully at home in the in the love of Jesus as their only hope in life and Jesus as their only hope in life and Jesus as their only hope in life and death. I hope they're hanging on in hope death. I hope they're hanging on in hope death. I hope they're hanging on in hope and growing in that from the fact that I and growing in that from the fact that I and growing in that from the fact that I won't let them uh off the hook and I won't let them uh off the hook and I won't let them uh off the hook and I just go there all the time. just go there all the time. just go there all the time. >> Uh I think some of the fruit is probably >> Uh I think some of the fruit is probably >> Uh I think some of the fruit is probably the fact that I get picked on it for it the fact that I get picked on it for it the fact that I get picked on it for it a lot. You know, if you go there, if you a lot. You know, if you go there, if you a lot. You know, if you go there, if you talk about death a lot in a death knight talk about death a lot in a death knight talk about death a lot in a death knight in culture, you're gonna seem pretty in culture, you're gonna seem pretty in culture, you're gonna seem pretty strange. You're the you're you're the strange. You're the you're you're the strange. You're the you're you're the death guy. I thought it was odd enough. death guy. I thought it was odd enough. death guy. I thought it was odd enough. I thought it was odd enough to be the I thought it was odd enough to be the I thought it was odd enough to be the deacons guy, but you're the death guy. deacons guy, but you're the death guy. deacons guy, but you're the death guy. I'm I'm I'm >> I'll trade you, man. >> I'll trade you, man. >> I'll trade you, man. >> I love how you put it that you're >> I love how you put it that you're >> I love how you put it that you're wanting to prepare people to view the wanting to prepare people to view the wanting to prepare people to view the future as their friend, not their enemy. future as their friend, not their enemy. future as their friend, not their enemy. Uh Lig, what would you add? Uh Lig, what would you add? Uh Lig, what would you add? >> Well, I mean, I just something that Matt >> Well, I mean, I just something that Matt >> Well, I mean, I just something that Matt just said, deathdenying culture. I it's just said, deathdenying culture. I it's just said, deathdenying culture. I it's I I'd love for you to talk about I I'd love for you to talk about I I'd love for you to talk about Nashville. I I know I've met that in Nashville. I I know I've met that in Nashville. I I know I've met that in Mississippi. I was actually surprised by Mississippi. I was actually surprised by Mississippi. I was actually surprised by it. I It may have been something that I it. I It may have been something that I it. I It may have been something that I missed in South Carolina growing up. It missed in South Carolina growing up. It missed in South Carolina growing up. It may be the same way. I grew up in South may be the same way. I grew up in South may be the same way. I grew up in South Carolina, went off to Missouri for Carolina, went off to Missouri for Carolina, went off to Missouri for graduate school, went off to Scotland, graduate school, went off to Scotland, graduate school, went off to Scotland, came to Mississippi, and was surprised came to Mississippi, and was surprised came to Mississippi, and was surprised at the number of people who tried to at the number of people who tried to at the number of people who tried to cope with death by denial.

cope with death by denial. cope with death by denial. >> Yeah. And so I I did find that one of my >> Yeah. And so I I did find that one of my >> Yeah. And so I I did find that one of my one of the uh one of the most pastoral one of the uh one of the most pastoral one of the uh one of the most pastoral roles I could play is naming the roles I could play is naming the roles I could play is naming the elephant in the room with people when elephant in the room with people when elephant in the room with people when they didn't feel like they didn't feel like they didn't feel like >> they either had the psychological nerve >> they either had the psychological nerve >> they either had the psychological nerve to do it or whether they their coping to do it or whether they their coping to do it or whether they their coping mechanism was to trying to pretend like mechanism was to trying to pretend like mechanism was to trying to pretend like it wasn't there. If I could just sort of it wasn't there. If I could just sort of it wasn't there. If I could just sort of puncture that balloon and and just say, puncture that balloon and and just say, puncture that balloon and and just say, "Hey, we're all here and this is a "Hey, we're all here and this is a "Hey, we're all here and this is a reality." I felt I I think actually reality." I felt I I think actually reality." I felt I I think actually people once they got over that hump they people once they got over that hump they people once they got over that hump they could get comforted. But have you seen could get comforted. But have you seen could get comforted. But have you seen that in Nashville too, Matt? that in Nashville too, Matt? that in Nashville too, Matt? >> 100%. Okay. >> 100%. Okay. >> 100%. Okay. >> I mean, let me let me say first directly >> I mean, let me let me say first directly >> I mean, let me let me say first directly to what you just said that there is a to what you just said that there is a to what you just said that there is a huge relief that I've seen people huge relief that I've seen people huge relief that I've seen people experience when you go there when they experience when you go there when they experience when you go there when they already have it on their mind because already have it on their mind because already have it on their mind because part of our death nine culture I'm part of our death nine culture I'm part of our death nine culture I'm convinced there sociological work that convinced there sociological work that convinced there sociological work that has really helped me see this uh that we has really helped me see this uh that we has really helped me see this uh that we have overlaid a taboo on the subject in have overlaid a taboo on the subject in have overlaid a taboo on the subject in the west especially in our country and the west especially in our country and the west especially in our country and certainly in my city such that if you certainly in my city such that if you certainly in my city such that if you talk about death especially among talk about death especially among talk about death especially among younger people in a time that ought to younger people in a time that ought to younger people in a time that ought to be happy and funloving. Um, you you you be happy and funloving. Um, you you you be happy and funloving. Um, you you you face a little bit of shame and ostracism face a little bit of shame and ostracism face a little bit of shame and ostracism for it.

for it. for it. >> And no one is saying that. No one is is >> And no one is saying that. No one is is >> And no one is saying that. No one is is even maybe even self-consciously even maybe even self-consciously even maybe even self-consciously thinking that, but we're feeling that thinking that, but we're feeling that thinking that, but we're feeling that and we're not going there. So, when and we're not going there. So, when and we're not going there. So, when someone does, yeah, it can sometimes someone does, yeah, it can sometimes someone does, yeah, it can sometimes just open a floodgate of relief and of just open a floodgate of relief and of just open a floodgate of relief and of of thoughtfulness u that people seem to of thoughtfulness u that people seem to of thoughtfulness u that people seem to really appreciate. But I I definitely really appreciate. But I I definitely really appreciate. But I I definitely see the death denial as a as a huge see the death denial as a as a huge see the death denial as a as a huge force in in my city, especially in the force in in my city, especially in the force in in my city, especially in the the places where I have worked and lived the places where I have worked and lived the places where I have worked and lived since living here. I've been here almost since living here. I've been here almost since living here. I've been here almost 20 years now. Came here for grad school 20 years now. Came here for grad school 20 years now. Came here for grad school at Vandy most of my years as early years at Vandy most of my years as early years at Vandy most of my years as early years as a pastor were right off the Vandy as a pastor were right off the Vandy as a pastor were right off the Vandy campus. So I'm in the city center. I'm campus. So I'm in the city center. I'm campus. So I'm in the city center. I'm in a place that's that's really in a place that's that's really in a place that's that's really connected to training and to you know connected to training and to you know connected to training and to you know ladder climbing and to a lot of the ladder climbing and to a lot of the ladder climbing and to a lot of the future like working towards uh a better future like working towards uh a better future like working towards uh a better and better future and a larger and and better future and a larger and and better future and a larger and larger slice of life in this world. And larger slice of life in this world. And larger slice of life in this world. And I think in that setting compared to the I think in that setting compared to the I think in that setting compared to the rural Alabama where I grow up, there are rural Alabama where I grow up, there are rural Alabama where I grow up, there are a lot of structural things in play that a lot of structural things in play that a lot of structural things in play that make it easier to deny that death calls make it easier to deny that death calls make it easier to deny that death calls into question what you're living for. M into question what you're living for. M into question what you're living for. M >> you know back home uh we had funerals a >> you know back home uh we had funerals a >> you know back home uh we had funerals a lot.

lot. lot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It was a small rural community. >> It was a small rural community. >> It was a small rural community. The First Baptist Church was my my The First Baptist Church was my my The First Baptist Church was my my church and there was a lot of inter church and there was a lot of inter church and there was a lot of inter intergenerational relationships in that intergenerational relationships in that intergenerational relationships in that church. It was just all just routine to church. It was just all just routine to church. It was just all just routine to be going to funeral or going visiting be going to funeral or going visiting be going to funeral or going visiting the hospital. People who are near death the hospital. People who are near death the hospital. People who are near death here uh in my churches that I've been here uh in my churches that I've been here uh in my churches that I've been part of in Nashville um almost never. part of in Nashville um almost never. part of in Nashville um almost never. It's mostly younger people. They're it's It's mostly younger people. They're it's It's mostly younger people. They're it's very transient. they're moving on. very transient. they're moving on. very transient. they're moving on. They're here for a few years and and They're here for a few years and and They're here for a few years and and then gone. And so, we don't see that then gone. And so, we don't see that then gone. And so, we don't see that full arc of life as often and have to full arc of life as often and have to full arc of life as often and have to face it at the end as well. face it at the end as well. face it at the end as well. >> So, I mean, there's a ton of factors we >> So, I mean, there's a ton of factors we >> So, I mean, there's a ton of factors we could go into here, but I definitely could go into here, but I definitely could go into here, but I definitely think death and is a huge a huge force think death and is a huge a huge force think death and is a huge a huge force here. here. here. >> I think too, uh, Matt, the the more >> I think too, uh, Matt, the the more >> I think too, uh, Matt, the the more shocking a death is, it can provoke shocking a death is, it can provoke shocking a death is, it can provoke different kinds of initial responses. So different kinds of initial responses. So different kinds of initial responses. So I'm thinking right now of a a a family I'm thinking right now of a a a family I'm thinking right now of a a a family that lost a father. He would have been that lost a father. He would have been that lost a father. He would have been midlife, you know, late 40s, early 50s, midlife, you know, late 40s, early 50s, midlife, you know, late 40s, early 50s, and nobody was prepared for it. And the and nobody was prepared for it. And the and nobody was prepared for it. And the there were some circumstances around it there were some circumstances around it there were some circumstances around it that made it more shocking. And the the that made it more shocking. And the the that made it more shocking. And the the family really had they struggled to come family really had they struggled to come family really had they struggled to come to grips with it, even to the point of to grips with it, even to the point of to grips with it, even to the point of not wanting to tell the children. And not wanting to tell the children. And not wanting to tell the children. And and I had to convince them, you've got and I had to convince them, you've got and I had to convince them, you've got to tell the children because the one to tell the children because the one to tell the children because the one thing that your children have right now thing that your children have right now thing that your children have right now is trust in adults. And if you don't is trust in adults. And if you don't is trust in adults. And if you don't tell them this, which is going to be the tell them this, which is going to be the tell them this, which is going to be the up to this point in their lives, this is

up to this point in their lives, this is up to this point in their lives, this is going to be the most significant thing going to be the most significant thing going to be the most significant thing that's happened to them other than being that's happened to them other than being that's happened to them other than being born, they won't be able to trust you on born, they won't be able to trust you on born, they won't be able to trust you on the other side. And the the family was the other side. And the the family was the other side. And the the family was so traumatized by what they were going so traumatized by what they were going so traumatized by what they were going through, they said, "Well, you you tell through, they said, "Well, you you tell through, they said, "Well, you you tell them." And so I had the privilege of them." And so I had the privilege of them." And so I had the privilege of holding those children in my arms and holding those children in my arms and holding those children in my arms and telling them that their dad was never telling them that their dad was never telling them that their dad was never going to come home going to come home going to come home >> again. And but once that happened, the >> again. And but once that happened, the >> again. And but once that happened, the family then they they then clicked in family then they they then clicked in family then they they then clicked in and you know, aunts and uncles and and you know, aunts and uncles and and you know, aunts and uncles and grandparents and all of that started grandparents and all of that started grandparents and all of that started surrounding those kids, but they they I surrounding those kids, but they they I surrounding those kids, but they they I I I just don't think they could take the I I just don't think they could take the I I just don't think they could take the first step. And sometimes first step. And sometimes first step. And sometimes >> pastors, you know, it's a word to >> pastors, you know, it's a word to >> pastors, you know, it's a word to pastors listening to it today. There may pastors listening to it today. There may pastors listening to it today. There may be some things that you need to do to be some things that you need to do to be some things that you need to do to help your people then click in to those help your people then click in to those help your people then click in to those instinctive ways that take care one instinctive ways that take care one instinctive ways that take care one another in situations like this. another in situations like this. another in situations like this. >> Totally. And and I would say too, one of >> Totally. And and I would say too, one of >> Totally. And and I would say too, one of the main things we need to do as pastors the main things we need to do as pastors the main things we need to do as pastors is try to get upstream of those shocking is try to get upstream of those shocking is try to get upstream of those shocking deaths and help people reconnect with deaths and help people reconnect with deaths and help people reconnect with death as a force that no one outruns. I death as a force that no one outruns. I death as a force that no one outruns. I mean, the reason those shocking deaths mean, the reason those shocking deaths mean, the reason those shocking deaths can be so provocative is that no one's can be so provocative is that no one's can be so provocative is that no one's looking for them, right? Just out of looking for them, right? Just out of looking for them, right? Just out of nowhere. The downside of the fact that nowhere. The downside of the fact that nowhere. The downside of the fact that that can be one of the only times we that can be one of the only times we that can be one of the only times we actually talk about death is that it can actually talk about death is that it can actually talk about death is that it can make death seem like something that's make death seem like something that's make death seem like something that's rare and tragic and not normal and rare and tragic and not normal and rare and tragic and not normal and universal.

universal. universal. >> We can't let people live with that >> We can't let people live with that >> We can't let people live with that deception. deception. deception. >> So, we've got to help them connect with >> So, we've got to help them connect with >> So, we've got to help them connect with their own mortality even when it seems their own mortality even when it seems their own mortality even when it seems like a, you know, a far-off rumor. like a, you know, a far-off rumor. like a, you know, a far-off rumor. >> Uh because >> Uh because >> Uh because >> it's not. Time flies. >> it's not. Time flies. >> it's not. Time flies. And I think I mean we can look at our And I think I mean we can look at our And I think I mean we can look at our death insulated culture and lament it. death insulated culture and lament it. death insulated culture and lament it. But it's also a unique opportunity for But it's also a unique opportunity for But it's also a unique opportunity for the church probably more than at any the church probably more than at any the church probably more than at any other time in human history. Because the other time in human history. Because the other time in human history. Because the reality is everyone is not just going to reality is everyone is not just going to reality is everyone is not just going to face death themselves, but is going to face death themselves, but is going to face death themselves, but is going to have funerals in their life. Times where have funerals in their life. Times where have funerals in their life. Times where they're sort of yanked back to reality, they're sort of yanked back to reality, they're sort of yanked back to reality, forced to reckon with mortality. forced to reckon with mortality. forced to reckon with mortality. Where are they going to turn for help Where are they going to turn for help Where are they going to turn for help and hope and hope and hope >> in a death averse age? >> in a death averse age? >> in a death averse age? >> The church, >> The church, >> The church, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> is one of the sole remaining bastions >> is one of the sole remaining bastions >> is one of the sole remaining bastions that can act that can stare at reality, that can act that can stare at reality, that can act that can stare at reality, name it for what it is, but also point name it for what it is, but also point name it for what it is, but also point beyond it to a a better world to come.

beyond it to a a better world to come. beyond it to a a better world to come. >> Hey man, this is our territory, man. >> Hey man, this is our territory, man. >> Hey man, this is our territory, man. This is we have good news for this This is we have good news for this This is we have good news for this situation. situation. situation. No, for that for that very reason, Matt, No, for that for that very reason, Matt, No, for that for that very reason, Matt, I I came to love preaching funeral I I came to love preaching funeral I I came to love preaching funeral sermons. I I preached about 30 funeral sermons. I I preached about 30 funeral sermons. I I preached about 30 funeral sermons a year at First Press. It allows sermons a year at First Press. It allows sermons a year at First Press. It allows us to say all the things we want to say us to say all the things we want to say us to say all the things we want to say about Christ, about the gospel, to about Christ, about the gospel, to about Christ, about the gospel, to reorient life, to keep people from um reorient life, to keep people from um reorient life, to keep people from um coping with the loss by talking about coping with the loss by talking about coping with the loss by talking about how wonderful the person was. how wonderful the person was. how wonderful the person was. >> Yes. Uh, and you know, and I had some >> Yes. Uh, and you know, and I had some >> Yes. Uh, and you know, and I had some wonderful people that I could have very wonderful people that I could have very wonderful people that I could have very honestly talked about how wonderful they honestly talked about how wonderful they honestly talked about how wonderful they are, but they would have gotten up, you are, but they would have gotten up, you are, but they would have gotten up, you know, if they could have, they would know, if they could have, they would know, if they could have, they would have gotten up out of the casket and and have gotten up out of the casket and and have gotten up out of the casket and and said, "Ligan, you preach the gospel. said, "Ligan, you preach the gospel. said, "Ligan, you preach the gospel. Don't don't talk about how wonderful." I Don't don't talk about how wonderful." I Don't don't talk about how wonderful." I mean, I had a few of them before they mean, I had a few of them before they mean, I had a few of them before they died who said, "You better not get up died who said, "You better not get up died who said, "You better not get up there and talk about how you better get there and talk about how you better get there and talk about how you better get up there and talk about Jesus in the in up there and talk about Jesus in the in up there and talk about Jesus in the in the gospel." Which I appreciate, that the gospel." Which I appreciate, that the gospel." Which I appreciate, that just gives you such freedom, just gives you such freedom, just gives you such freedom, uh, you know, when you're going into a uh, you know, when you're going into a uh, you know, when you're going into a funeral message. But we we all because funeral message. But we we all because funeral message. But we we all because I'm sure all of us Richmond, Nashville, I'm sure all of us Richmond, Nashville, I'm sure all of us Richmond, Nashville, Jackson, we have communities that have Jackson, we have communities that have Jackson, we have communities that have tons of unbelievers as a part of the tons of unbelievers as a part of the tons of unbelievers as a part of the believer's lives. And so you get a lot believer's lives. And so you get a lot believer's lives. And so you get a lot of unbelievers in that setting. It's a of unbelievers in that setting. It's a of unbelievers in that setting. It's a great opportunity for us to talk about great opportunity for us to talk about great opportunity for us to talk about what the gospel teaches and what we're what the gospel teaches and what we're what the gospel teaches and what we're what what we're all about. U and what what we're all about. U and what what we're all about. U and >> so I I I came to look forward to those >> so I I I came to look forward to those >> so I I I came to look forward to those opportunities. I can definitely see why opportunities. I can definitely see why opportunities. I can definitely see why you came to love them. I, you know, I you came to love them. I, you know, I you came to love them. I, you know, I had not preached a funeral sermon

had not preached a funeral sermon had not preached a funeral sermon uh for someone in my congregation when I uh for someone in my congregation when I uh for someone in my congregation when I wrote the book Remember Death. I wrote the book Remember Death. I wrote the book Remember Death. I actually talk about this in the book actually talk about this in the book actually talk about this in the book that I uh that I was writing for a that I uh that I was writing for a that I uh that I was writing for a different audience than that one. This different audience than that one. This different audience than that one. This is an a book to people who think of is an a book to people who think of is an a book to people who think of death as somebody else's problem to help death as somebody else's problem to help death as somebody else's problem to help them see it's not. them see it's not. them see it's not. >> Since then, >> Since then, >> Since then, um I have had the opportunity to preach um I have had the opportunity to preach um I have had the opportunity to preach funerals of people in my church. uh we funerals of people in my church. uh we funerals of people in my church. uh we are more aged diverse than we used to be are more aged diverse than we used to be are more aged diverse than we used to be and and and >> it is it is heartbreaking uh and yet so >> it is it is heartbreaking uh and yet so >> it is it is heartbreaking uh and yet so beautiful when they've died in faith um beautiful when they've died in faith um beautiful when they've died in faith um >> and and honestly I besides just >> and and honestly I besides just >> and and honestly I besides just celebrating their faith and holding that celebrating their faith and holding that celebrating their faith and holding that up as a model for others it is an up as a model for others it is an up as a model for others it is an incredible momento my type opportunity incredible momento my type opportunity incredible momento my type opportunity to have a c have a coffin in front of to have a c have a coffin in front of to have a c have a coffin in front of you you you >> and point that to that coffin to the >> and point that to that coffin to the >> and point that to that coffin to the room full of people including many room full of people including many room full of people including many unbelievers often from their families unbelievers often from their families unbelievers often from their families and say this is where it ends for all of and say this is where it ends for all of and say this is where it ends for all of us. Are you ready for that? us. Are you ready for that? us. Are you ready for that? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> they were. Are you? >> they were. Are you? >> they were. Are you? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that that Latin phrase momento mory, >> And that that Latin phrase momento mory, >> And that that Latin phrase momento mory, you talk about that quite a bit. Can you you talk about that quite a bit. Can you you talk about that quite a bit. Can you unpack that a bit, Matt, and and talk unpack that a bit, Matt, and and talk unpack that a bit, Matt, and and talk about why that's a useful thing for about why that's a useful thing for about why that's a useful thing for ordinary believers to um to meditate on?

ordinary believers to um to meditate on? ordinary believers to um to meditate on? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it the Latin phrase >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it the Latin phrase >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it the Latin phrase basically means remember death. One of basically means remember death. One of basically means remember death. One of two branches of reflection and two branches of reflection and two branches of reflection and meditation in the Christian tradition meditation in the Christian tradition meditation in the Christian tradition that relate to death. The other one that relate to death. The other one that relate to death. The other one would be how to die well. The ars mory would be how to die well. The ars mory would be how to die well. The ars mory indie. Um that one's about like when you indie. Um that one's about like when you indie. Um that one's about like when you get there, how's it going to go down? get there, how's it going to go down? get there, how's it going to go down? Are you ready for the moment if you know Are you ready for the moment if you know Are you ready for the moment if you know that you're dying if you're sick near that you're dying if you're sick near that you're dying if you're sick near the end of your life? the end of your life? the end of your life? >> The the one that I'm working with or >> The the one that I'm working with or >> The the one that I'm working with or worked with in the book is on bringing worked with in the book is on bringing worked with in the book is on bringing consciousness of death, the fact of consciousness of death, the fact of consciousness of death, the fact of mortality into daily life as a a as a a mortality into daily life as a a as a a mortality into daily life as a a as a a way of seeing the truth about the world way of seeing the truth about the world way of seeing the truth about the world and your desperate need for Jesus. that and your desperate need for Jesus. that and your desperate need for Jesus. that that mortality is something that ought that mortality is something that ought that mortality is something that ought to be an everyday presence in in our to be an everyday presence in in our to be an everyday presence in in our thinking in our hearts. Um both for the thinking in our hearts. Um both for the thinking in our hearts. Um both for the wisdom but also for the hope. I find wisdom but also for the hope. I find wisdom but also for the hope. I find that in my own heart and certainly among that in my own heart and certainly among that in my own heart and certainly among my friends that I pastor like the the my friends that I pastor like the the my friends that I pastor like the the kinds of things Jesus talks about and kinds of things Jesus talks about and kinds of things Jesus talks about and promises to us just seem so otherworldly promises to us just seem so otherworldly promises to us just seem so otherworldly sometimes so remote and detached from sometimes so remote and detached from sometimes so remote and detached from the kinds of things we're really the kinds of things we're really the kinds of things we're really invested in here and now. And I I'm just invested in here and now. And I I'm just invested in here and now. And I I'm just completely convinced that's because completely convinced that's because completely convinced that's because death feels remote and otherworldly.

death feels remote and otherworldly. death feels remote and otherworldly. That that if if death is is is some sort That that if if death is is is some sort That that if if death is is is some sort of distant room or somebody else's of distant room or somebody else's of distant room or somebody else's problem, Jesus is going to seem like problem, Jesus is going to seem like problem, Jesus is going to seem like somebody else's savior. Uh but if if you somebody else's savior. Uh but if if you somebody else's savior. Uh but if if you can get acquainted with death on a daily can get acquainted with death on a daily can get acquainted with death on a daily basis, then then you're you're bringing basis, then then you're you're bringing basis, then then you're you're bringing Jesus into your daily life, too, because Jesus into your daily life, too, because Jesus into your daily life, too, because his promises make sense against that his promises make sense against that his promises make sense against that backdrop. backdrop. backdrop. >> Okay. When you say acquainting yourself >> Okay. When you say acquainting yourself >> Okay. When you say acquainting yourself with death on a daily basis, what does with death on a daily basis, what does with death on a daily basis, what does that look like practically for a healthy that look like practically for a healthy that look like practically for a healthy believer? believer? believer? >> I think it means not avoiding the >> I think it means not avoiding the >> I think it means not avoiding the subject when it comes up cuz it will. So subject when it comes up cuz it will. So subject when it comes up cuz it will. So you'll see you'll see things in your own you'll see you'll see things in your own you'll see you'll see things in your own life. You'll see things in in media. You life. You'll see things in in media. You life. You'll see things in in media. You you'll see things in the scriptures that you'll see things in the scriptures that you'll see things in the scriptures that that point you to the fact that life is that point you to the fact that life is that point you to the fact that life is over. And our our temptation is going to over. And our our temptation is going to over. And our our temptation is going to be to distract ourselves or to to just be to distract ourselves or to to just be to distract ourselves or to to just back out to avoid the subject. uh back out to avoid the subject. uh back out to avoid the subject. uh because it's unpleasant. Um and so part because it's unpleasant. Um and so part because it's unpleasant. Um and so part of momento mori is just refusing to do of momento mori is just refusing to do of momento mori is just refusing to do that. It's if where I see it as such a that. It's if where I see it as such a that. It's if where I see it as such a basic human reality that that is is basic human reality that that is is basic human reality that that is is there all around me. I'm going to look there all around me. I'm going to look there all around me. I'm going to look closer and not look away. I'm going to closer and not look away. I'm going to closer and not look away. I'm going to press in and not pull back. Um you know press in and not pull back. Um you know press in and not pull back. Um you know for me this is just like a couple of for me this is just like a couple of for me this is just like a couple of practical tidbits you got. I mean to practical tidbits you got. I mean to practical tidbits you got. I mean to reveal to you how morbid I guess I reveal to you how morbid I guess I reveal to you how morbid I guess I really am.

really am. really am. I I actually keep a a a rubbing from a a I I actually keep a a a rubbing from a a I I actually keep a a a rubbing from a a Puritan gravestone, chalk rubbing from a Puritan gravestone, chalk rubbing from a Puritan gravestone, chalk rubbing from a Puritan gravestone above my desk. Um it Puritan gravestone above my desk. Um it Puritan gravestone above my desk. Um it I got it I got it at an estate sale of a I got it I got it at an estate sale of a I got it I got it at an estate sale of a Vanderbilt history professor who had Vanderbilt history professor who had Vanderbilt history professor who had collected that rubbing himself on like a collected that rubbing himself on like a collected that rubbing himself on like a trip up to New England or something. trip up to New England or something. trip up to New England or something. It's just a picture of I'm looking at it It's just a picture of I'm looking at it It's just a picture of I'm looking at it right now. picture of a of a skull with right now. picture of a of a skull with right now. picture of a of a skull with wings above an hourglass and it says wings above an hourglass and it says wings above an hourglass and it says momento my hour comes or time flies. momento my hour comes or time flies. momento my hour comes or time flies. >> Um I I don't look at that thing five >> Um I I don't look at that thing five >> Um I I don't look at that thing five times a day by any I don't have times a day by any I don't have times a day by any I don't have scheduled times where I look at it. But scheduled times where I look at it. But scheduled times where I look at it. But I'll tell you what, sometimes I look up I'll tell you what, sometimes I look up I'll tell you what, sometimes I look up there and I see it when I'm when I'm there and I see it when I'm when I'm there and I see it when I'm when I'm stressing over a sermon I'm trying to stressing over a sermon I'm trying to stressing over a sermon I'm trying to write that I wish was better than it is write that I wish was better than it is write that I wish was better than it is and living with the illusion that and living with the illusion that and living with the illusion that somebody's going to remember it 100 somebody's going to remember it 100 somebody's going to remember it 100 years from now. They're not going to years from now. They're not going to years from now. They're not going to remember me 100 years from now. they remember me 100 years from now. they remember me 100 years from now. they certainly aren't going to remember this certainly aren't going to remember this certainly aren't going to remember this sermon. So, lighten up and preach sermon. So, lighten up and preach sermon. So, lighten up and preach Christ. That that that skull up there Christ. That that that skull up there Christ. That that that skull up there tells me to do that. Um, so that's just tells me to do that. Um, so that's just tells me to do that. Um, so that's just a practical thing that that I've done a practical thing that that I've done a practical thing that that I've done just to try to bring that that awareness just to try to bring that that awareness just to try to bring that that awareness into what my what my to-do list for into what my what my to-do list for into what my what my to-do list for today is going to include.

today is going to include. today is going to include. >> Before we move on to talking about >> Before we move on to talking about >> Before we move on to talking about heaven, uh, obviously we've already heaven, uh, obviously we've already heaven, uh, obviously we've already touched a little bit on the the hope touched a little bit on the the hope touched a little bit on the the hope that awaits believers. What was the that awaits believers. What was the that awaits believers. What was the other Latin phrase you mentioned that other Latin phrase you mentioned that other Latin phrase you mentioned that you don't focus on as much? ours more you don't focus on as much? ours more you don't focus on as much? ours more and it's focused on on dying well on and it's focused on on dying well on and it's focused on on dying well on when it gets to that point. when it gets to that point. when it gets to that point. >> That actually reminded me of one of my >> That actually reminded me of one of my >> That actually reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from John Newton in one favorite quotes from John Newton in one favorite quotes from John Newton in one of his letters. He's writing to a woman of his letters. He's writing to a woman of his letters. He's writing to a woman named Mrs. Talbet in 1777, not long named Mrs. Talbet in 1777, not long named Mrs. Talbet in 1777, not long after her husband has tragically died. after her husband has tragically died. after her husband has tragically died. And she's struggling with the fact that And she's struggling with the fact that And she's struggling with the fact that he must have really suffered and must he must have really suffered and must he must have really suffered and must have struggled uh in his faith near the have struggled uh in his faith near the have struggled uh in his faith near the end. uh she she's fearing that was the end. uh she she's fearing that was the end. uh she she's fearing that was the case, though she doesn't have any reason case, though she doesn't have any reason case, though she doesn't have any reason necessarily to believe so. And Newton necessarily to believe so. And Newton necessarily to believe so. And Newton writes, writes, writes, "Though our frames and perceptions may "Though our frames and perceptions may "Though our frames and perceptions may vary, the report of faith concerning the vary, the report of faith concerning the vary, the report of faith concerning the time of death is the same. The Lord time of death is the same. The Lord time of death is the same. The Lord usually reserves dying strength for the usually reserves dying strength for the usually reserves dying strength for the dying hour. You have nothing to fear dying hour. You have nothing to fear dying hour. You have nothing to fear from death. For Jesus by dying has from death. For Jesus by dying has from death. For Jesus by dying has disarmed it of its sting, has perfumed disarmed it of its sting, has perfumed disarmed it of its sting, has perfumed the grave and opened the gates of glory the grave and opened the gates of glory the grave and opened the gates of glory for his believing people. Satan, so far for his believing people. Satan, so far for his believing people. Satan, so far as he is permitted, will assault our as he is permitted, will assault our as he is permitted, will assault our peace. But he is a vanquished enemy. Our peace. But he is a vanquished enemy. Our peace. But he is a vanquished enemy. Our Lord holds him in a chain and sets him Lord holds him in a chain and sets him Lord holds him in a chain and sets him bounds which he cannot pass. He provides bounds which he cannot pass. He provides bounds which he cannot pass. He provides for us likewise the whole armor of God for us likewise the whole armor of God for us likewise the whole armor of God and has promised to cover our heads and has promised to cover our heads and has promised to cover our heads himself in the day of battle to bring us himself in the day of battle to bring us himself in the day of battle to bring us honorably through every skirmish and to honorably through every skirmish and to honorably through every skirmish and to make us more than conquerors at last. I

make us more than conquerors at last. I make us more than conquerors at last. I just love that little phrase that the just love that little phrase that the just love that little phrase that the Lord reserves dying strength for the Lord reserves dying strength for the Lord reserves dying strength for the dying hour. Something I try to remind my dying hour. Something I try to remind my dying hour. Something I try to remind my church members is not just for the dying church members is not just for the dying church members is not just for the dying hour but but he reserves grace to suffer hour but but he reserves grace to suffer hour but but he reserves grace to suffer well for the suffering hour. Whatever well for the suffering hour. Whatever well for the suffering hour. Whatever life is going to throw your way this life is going to throw your way this life is going to throw your way this coming week, coming week, coming week, >> you don't necessarily have the grace to >> you don't necessarily have the grace to >> you don't necessarily have the grace to face it yet. And that's okay. face it yet. And that's okay. face it yet. And that's okay. >> The Lord is is never late. >> The Lord is is never late. >> The Lord is is never late. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Lig, when you were pastoring for so many >> Lig, when you were pastoring for so many >> Lig, when you were pastoring for so many years, how did you cultivate heavenly years, how did you cultivate heavenly years, how did you cultivate heavenly mindedness among your people? mindedness among your people? mindedness among your people? Well, I you know, very frankly, I would Well, I you know, very frankly, I would Well, I you know, very frankly, I would use the shorter catechism questions use the shorter catechism questions use the shorter catechism questions about the benefits of Christ um at, you about the benefits of Christ um at, you about the benefits of Christ um at, you know, what are the benefits of Christ uh know, what are the benefits of Christ uh know, what are the benefits of Christ uh at death? What are the benefits of at death? What are the benefits of at death? What are the benefits of Christ at the resurrection? and use that Christ at the resurrection? and use that Christ at the resurrection? and use that as a framework to help people meditate as a framework to help people meditate as a framework to help people meditate upon the hope of heaven and then to use upon the hope of heaven and then to use upon the hope of heaven and then to use that hope as a motivating uh force for that hope as a motivating uh force for that hope as a motivating uh force for living now. Not as an escape from now, living now. Not as an escape from now, living now. Not as an escape from now, but as an engine for now. So, it's not but as an engine for now. So, it's not but as an engine for now. So, it's not that we're so heavenly minded that we're that we're so heavenly minded that we're that we're so heavenly minded that we're no earthly good. It's because we're no earthly good. It's because we're no earthly good. It's because we're heavenly minded. We're the most earthly heavenly minded. We're the most earthly heavenly minded. We're the most earthly good possible because our hopes don't good possible because our hopes don't good possible because our hopes don't rest on the shortterm effect of all our rest on the shortterm effect of all our rest on the shortterm effect of all our good efforts here. Uh that what what we good efforts here. Uh that what what we good efforts here. Uh that what what we do for the Lord, however it is prospered do for the Lord, however it is prospered do for the Lord, however it is prospered by his hand in the here and now is of

by his hand in the here and now is of by his hand in the here and now is of eternal value to him. And and as John eternal value to him. And and as John eternal value to him. And and as John tells us in Revelation, our works follow tells us in Revelation, our works follow tells us in Revelation, our works follow us. So no matter what happens here, us. So no matter what happens here, us. So no matter what happens here, >> uh what we do for the Lord will matter >> uh what we do for the Lord will matter >> uh what we do for the Lord will matter in the way that he wants it to matter. in the way that he wants it to matter. in the way that he wants it to matter. And nothing here can rob us of the glory And nothing here can rob us of the glory And nothing here can rob us of the glory of that world of love that awaits us. of that world of love that awaits us. of that world of love that awaits us. And so and thankfully I mean just just And so and thankfully I mean just just And so and thankfully I mean just just just like Matt was pointing us to the just like Matt was pointing us to the just like Matt was pointing us to the Puritans and how they even things they Puritans and how they even things they Puritans and how they even things they put on their gravestones to remind them put on their gravestones to remind them put on their gravestones to remind them about this thing. You know, the funerals about this thing. You know, the funerals about this thing. You know, the funerals are, we always say funerals are for the are, we always say funerals are for the are, we always say funerals are for the living. And back then, graveyard living. And back then, graveyard living. And back then, graveyard graveyards were for the living because graveyards were for the living because graveyards were for the living because they they knew they knew the living they they knew they knew the living they they knew they knew the living would go to graveyards to visit the would go to graveyards to visit the would go to graveyards to visit the places where their loved ones had been places where their loved ones had been places where their loved ones had been laid to rest. And they wanted those laid to rest. And they wanted those laid to rest. And they wanted those people who were living to think about people who were living to think about people who were living to think about the future. One day you will be here. the future. One day you will be here. the future. One day you will be here. Well, in the same way, we want to remind Well, in the same way, we want to remind Well, in the same way, we want to remind our people there there is a there is an our people there there is a there is an our people there there is a there is an eternity of the new heavens and the new eternity of the new heavens and the new eternity of the new heavens and the new earth for which we were created and earth for which we were created and earth for which we were created and which we will enjoy. And that that that which we will enjoy. And that that that which we will enjoy. And that that that just fuels the the Christian life. And just fuels the the Christian life. And just fuels the the Christian life. And the the Puritans wrote a lot about that the the Puritans wrote a lot about that the the Puritans wrote a lot about that of a saints everlasting rest. We could of a saints everlasting rest. We could of a saints everlasting rest. We could go down wonderful uh books that they go down wonderful uh books that they go down wonderful uh books that they wrote for their people on this to help wrote for their people on this to help wrote for their people on this to help them live the Christian life. But them live the Christian life. But them live the Christian life. But preaching the great preaching the great preaching the great >> We'll link to these in the show notes.

>> We'll link to these in the show notes. >> We'll link to these in the show notes. >> Oh. Oh, great. Great. You know, great >> Oh. Oh, great. Great. You know, great >> Oh. Oh, great. Great. You know, great texts of scripture allow you to do this. texts of scripture allow you to do this. texts of scripture allow you to do this. It's It's It's >> so interesting that Christ wants his >> so interesting that Christ wants his >> so interesting that Christ wants his disciples to meditate upon this and and disciples to meditate upon this and and disciples to meditate upon this and and will draw attention to this in his will draw attention to this in his will draw attention to this in his teaching from time to time. And then you teaching from time to time. And then you teaching from time to time. And then you you have great passages in the New you have great passages in the New you have great passages in the New Testament, whether it's in Thessalonians Testament, whether it's in Thessalonians Testament, whether it's in Thessalonians or whether it's in the book of or whether it's in the book of or whether it's in the book of Revelation or elsewhere that will point Revelation or elsewhere that will point Revelation or elsewhere that will point believers to what is ahead. That God is believers to what is ahead. That God is believers to what is ahead. That God is the Lord of everything, all of time, all the Lord of everything, all of time, all the Lord of everything, all of time, all of history, but he's going to be God not of history, but he's going to be God not of history, but he's going to be God not only now, but forever more. And so Paul only now, but forever more. And so Paul only now, but forever more. And so Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 would say, you know, in 1 Corinthians 15 would say, you know, in 1 Corinthians 15 would say, you know, if this is all there is, then we're if this is all there is, then we're if this is all there is, then we're we're of all people more most miserable. we're of all people more most miserable. we're of all people more most miserable. But because But because But because uh this is not all there is then no uh this is not all there is then no uh this is not all there is then no misery or trial in the present life can misery or trial in the present life can misery or trial in the present life can rob us of the joy and the hope and the rob us of the joy and the hope and the rob us of the joy and the hope and the and the energy to serve God. Now that's and the energy to serve God. Now that's and the energy to serve God. Now that's one of the glorious things that we get one of the glorious things that we get one of the glorious things that we get to do not just at funerals but in just to do not just at funerals but in just to do not just at funerals but in just the in the normal rhythms of pastoral the in the normal rhythms of pastoral the in the normal rhythms of pastoral life is just remind people of that. And life is just remind people of that. And life is just remind people of that. And you're both right. I I think not only you're both right. I I think not only you're both right. I I think not only our culture but the technology of our our culture but the technology of our our culture but the technology of our culture and the relentless 247ness culture and the relentless 247ness culture and the relentless 247ness of our culture. I think previous of our culture. I think previous of our culture. I think previous generations had more space to sit around generations had more space to sit around generations had more space to sit around and think about these things and now we and think about these things and now we and think about these things and now we can fill up all the space of reflection can fill up all the space of reflection can fill up all the space of reflection with scrolling.

with scrolling. with scrolling. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. uh or you know with with music you know uh or you know with with music you know uh or you know with with music you know in our earbuds all the time and and we in our earbuds all the time and and we in our earbuds all the time and and we squeeze out those times that we have to squeeze out those times that we have to squeeze out those times that we have to come face to face with these things. And come face to face with these things. And come face to face with these things. And so pastors get the get the privilege of so pastors get the get the privilege of so pastors get the get the privilege of interjecting this into the regular interjecting this into the regular interjecting this into the regular conversations of life and and conversations of life and and conversations of life and and ministerial visitations and ministerial visitations and ministerial visitations and conversations over the over the church conversations over the over the church conversations over the over the church dinner or you know whatever whatever it dinner or you know whatever whatever it dinner or you know whatever whatever it might be as well as the pulpit. might be as well as the pulpit. might be as well as the pulpit. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, if I could jump in here, Yeah. I mean, if I could jump in here, Yeah. I mean, if I could jump in here, Matt, on that with a hearty amen and and Matt, on that with a hearty amen and and Matt, on that with a hearty amen and and a sense that I've gotten, especially in a sense that I've gotten, especially in a sense that I've gotten, especially in the last few years as I thought more and the last few years as I thought more and the last few years as I thought more and more on this, that one of my main jobs more on this, that one of my main jobs more on this, that one of my main jobs in ministry has got to be a voice crying in ministry has got to be a voice crying in ministry has got to be a voice crying in the wilderness of our of our time and in the wilderness of our of our time and in the wilderness of our of our time and our place that this world is not our place that this world is not our place that this world is not everything. everything. everything. Because there are algorithms out there Because there are algorithms out there Because there are algorithms out there hunting for my people all week long. hunting for my people all week long. hunting for my people all week long. They are hunting for them and the only They are hunting for them and the only They are hunting for them and the only thing they're offering as bait is this thing they're offering as bait is this thing they're offering as bait is this growing sense that the real problem in growing sense that the real problem in growing sense that the real problem in your life is that your slice of life in your life is that your slice of life in your life is that your slice of life in this world is not big enough. We can this world is not big enough. We can this world is not big enough. We can help you with that.

help you with that. help you with that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh I don't know of an algorithm out >> Uh I don't know of an algorithm out >> Uh I don't know of an algorithm out there that's going to tell them to there that's going to tell them to there that's going to tell them to remember heaven and that everything ends remember heaven and that everything ends remember heaven and that everything ends there. So it's okay. It's all right. there. So it's okay. It's all right. there. So it's okay. It's all right. Focus on what matters more. That's my Focus on what matters more. That's my Focus on what matters more. That's my job. And man, I'm I'm trying to take job. And man, I'm I'm trying to take job. And man, I'm I'm trying to take every, as Luke just said, I'm trying to every, as Luke just said, I'm trying to every, as Luke just said, I'm trying to take every opportunity, especially in take every opportunity, especially in take every opportunity, especially in the pulpit, but but also just in basic the pulpit, but but also just in basic the pulpit, but but also just in basic friendships and and in counseling friendships and and in counseling friendships and and in counseling ministry to remind people of of of where ministry to remind people of of of where ministry to remind people of of of where this is all headed and why it's such this is all headed and why it's such this is all headed and why it's such good news for them. good news for them. good news for them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What are some of the misconceptions >> What are some of the misconceptions >> What are some of the misconceptions about heaven or some of the more about heaven or some of the more about heaven or some of the more difficult questions uh about the difficult questions uh about the difficult questions uh about the afterlife that that you've received as afterlife that that you've received as afterlife that that you've received as pastors? pastors? pastors? I I'll say that one of the um I I'll say that one of the um I I'll say that one of the um inspirations to me anyway for writing inspirations to me anyway for writing inspirations to me anyway for writing the book was was my sense that at least the book was was my sense that at least the book was was my sense that at least the folks that I've been pastoring I the folks that I've been pastoring I the folks that I've been pastoring I think are dealing less with think are dealing less with think are dealing less with misconceptions than with just a lack of misconceptions than with just a lack of misconceptions than with just a lack of conception of heaven. Just a lack of conception of heaven. Just a lack of conception of heaven. Just a lack of awareness of it. Not not a lot of awareness of it. Not not a lot of awareness of it. Not not a lot of attention to it. I that is certainly how attention to it. I that is certainly how attention to it. I that is certainly how I think I lived for far too long in my I think I lived for far too long in my I think I lived for far too long in my Christian life. though maybe I'm just Christian life. though maybe I'm just Christian life. though maybe I'm just preaching to me but but um I I I want to preaching to me but but um I I I want to preaching to me but but um I I I want to raise the questions that heaven answers raise the questions that heaven answers raise the questions that heaven answers u because I don't often run into people u because I don't often run into people u because I don't often run into people who have a lot of questions of their who have a lot of questions of their who have a lot of questions of their own. Um when I do I I think that a own. Um when I do I I think that a own. Um when I do I I think that a couple of the biggest misconceptions couple of the biggest misconceptions couple of the biggest misconceptions that I have seen are the boring heaven's that I have seen are the boring heaven's that I have seen are the boring heaven's going to be boring one and uh it's all going to be boring one and uh it's all going to be boring one and uh it's all about seeing my loved ones again. one about seeing my loved ones again. one about seeing my loved ones again. one >> I mean the heaven's going to be boring >> I mean the heaven's going to be boring >> I mean the heaven's going to be boring one it comes from just a lot of one it comes from just a lot of one it comes from just a lot of misconceptions about the nature of

misconceptions about the nature of misconceptions about the nature of heaven dis that it's disembodied or that heaven dis that it's disembodied or that heaven dis that it's disembodied or that it's somehow con a constriction of the it's somehow con a constriction of the it's somehow con a constriction of the things we love about this world rather things we love about this world rather things we love about this world rather than expansion of them than expansion of them than expansion of them >> I read someone who said that our >> I read someone who said that our >> I read someone who said that our ancestors used to be afraid of hell and ancestors used to be afraid of hell and ancestors used to be afraid of hell and we're afraid of heaven we're afraid of heaven we're afraid of heaven >> and I think there's a little truth to >> and I think there's a little truth to >> and I think there's a little truth to that that that >> and then I do think it's where I do have >> and then I do think it's where I do have >> and then I do think it's where I do have where I do see people interested in where I do see people interested in where I do see people interested in heaven and talking about it it's often heaven and talking about it it's often heaven and talking about it it's often in the with the hope of seeing loved in the with the hope of seeing loved in the with the hope of seeing loved ones again which is awesome it's core ones again which is awesome it's core ones again which is awesome it's core it's important but it is not the center it's important but it is not the center it's important but it is not the center >> yeah I think I would agree with you I I >> yeah I think I would agree with you I I >> yeah I think I would agree with you I I I see one I see a lot of people with no I see one I see a lot of people with no I see one I see a lot of people with no conceptions and and a lot of that is conceptions and and a lot of that is conceptions and and a lot of that is because because because uh you know we we have lived through a uh you know we we have lived through a uh you know we we have lived through a sort of an interesting period where sort of an interesting period where sort of an interesting period where evangelicalism evangelicalism evangelicalism has been influenced by some of the anti- has been influenced by some of the anti- has been influenced by some of the anti- otherworldliness iness of contemporary otherworldliness iness of contemporary otherworldliness iness of contemporary forms of Christian theology that's that forms of Christian theology that's that forms of Christian theology that's that have sort of attacked heaven and and have sort of attacked heaven and and have sort of attacked heaven and and saying, "Oh, you know, we have this saying, "Oh, you know, we have this saying, "Oh, you know, we have this platonic idea that's been foisted on platonic idea that's been foisted on platonic idea that's been foisted on Christians." And so there's been a lot Christians." And so there's been a lot Christians." And so there's been a lot of here and now stuff, forget the pie in of here and now stuff, forget the pie in of here and now stuff, forget the pie in the sky by and by. And so I think that's the sky by and by. And so I think that's the sky by and by. And so I think that's dialed. I think that's scared some dialed. I think that's scared some dialed. I think that's scared some evangelical pastors and they've res evangelical pastors and they've res evangelical pastors and they've res they've responded to a fear. Oh yeah, they've responded to a fear. Oh yeah, they've responded to a fear. Oh yeah, we're talking too much about heaven.

we're talking too much about heaven. we're talking too much about heaven. we're not really helping people in the we're not really helping people in the we're not really helping people in the here and now. So, consequently, you got here and now. So, consequently, you got here and now. So, consequently, you got a lot of people that just don't have any a lot of people that just don't have any a lot of people that just don't have any conception at all. So, I would agree conception at all. So, I would agree conception at all. So, I would agree with you on that. Here's one I would with you on that. Here's one I would with you on that. Here's one I would add. I think there are fears. I I love add. I think there are fears. I I love add. I think there are fears. I I love the fact that you talked about not only the fact that you talked about not only the fact that you talked about not only remember death, but you know, prepare to remember death, but you know, prepare to remember death, but you know, prepare to die well because I know a lot of people die well because I know a lot of people die well because I know a lot of people who have a strong trust in Christ. They who have a strong trust in Christ. They who have a strong trust in Christ. They have a as much as they can have a have a as much as they can have a have a as much as they can have a certainty that they will be with Christ, certainty that they will be with Christ, certainty that they will be with Christ, but they're afraid at the process of but they're afraid at the process of but they're afraid at the process of getting there. So, they're actually getting there. So, they're actually getting there. So, they're actually afraid of the process of dying. afraid of the process of dying. afraid of the process of dying. >> And sometimes that's because of what >> And sometimes that's because of what >> And sometimes that's because of what they've seen. They've had a maybe a a they've seen. They've had a maybe a a they've seen. They've had a maybe a a parent who died hard. parent who died hard. parent who died hard. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh and they're afraid of the process of >> Uh and they're afraid of the process of >> Uh and they're afraid of the process of dying. Or you have people that are, you dying. Or you have people that are, you dying. Or you have people that are, you know, you have dementia um, you know, know, you have dementia um, you know, know, you have dementia um, you know, patients and they they they don't know patients and they they they don't know patients and they they they don't know you anymore and they don't know you anymore and they don't know you anymore and they don't know themselves anymore. I watched one of my themselves anymore. I watched one of my themselves anymore. I watched one of my former elders who is out at at a at a at former elders who is out at at a at a at former elders who is out at at a at a at a home for the elderly a home for the elderly a home for the elderly at the memory care unit one Sunday at the memory care unit one Sunday at the memory care unit one Sunday afternoon not long ago tenderly caring afternoon not long ago tenderly caring afternoon not long ago tenderly caring for his wife for his wife for his wife >> who who has long ago for has no idea who >> who who has long ago for has no idea who >> who who has long ago for has no idea who he is he is he is >> has no idea who she is and he's tenderly >> has no idea who she is and he's tenderly >> has no idea who she is and he's tenderly caring for his wife and I you just want caring for his wife and I you just want caring for his wife and I you just want to say, "Oh, you know, oh, that she to say, "Oh, you know, oh, that she to say, "Oh, you know, oh, that she could see how this man loves her and she could see how this man loves her and she could see how this man loves her and she doesn't know who he is and he's tenderly

doesn't know who he is and he's tenderly doesn't know who he is and he's tenderly cared and that, you know, if you see if cared and that, you know, if you see if cared and that, you know, if you see if you if if you're his 30some year old you if if you're his 30some year old you if if you're his 30some year old son. son. son. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You're scared. Oh my heavens, what would >> You're scared. Oh my heavens, what would >> You're scared. Oh my heavens, what would it be like if I had to go through that it be like if I had to go through that it be like if I had to go through that with my wife or my children or or with my wife or my children or or with my wife or my children or or whatever." So, I think some people are whatever." So, I think some people are whatever." So, I think some people are afraid of the process of getting there. afraid of the process of getting there. afraid of the process of getting there. And I I think that just helping people And I I think that just helping people And I I think that just helping people through that, talking about the process, through that, talking about the process, through that, talking about the process, not just about death and then the not just about death and then the not just about death and then the afterlife, but the process of getting afterlife, but the process of getting afterlife, but the process of getting there is a big deal. And I think what there is a big deal. And I think what there is a big deal. And I think what you just said as well about will I will you just said as well about will I will you just said as well about will I will I see my loved ones in heaven? Will I I see my loved ones in heaven? Will I I see my loved ones in heaven? Will I recognize my loved ones in heaven? And recognize my loved ones in heaven? And recognize my loved ones in heaven? And then being able to then being able to then being able to emphasize that as one of the blessings, emphasize that as one of the blessings, emphasize that as one of the blessings, but not the central thing. That's but not the central thing. That's but not the central thing. That's definitely a part of it. I think people definitely a part of it. I think people definitely a part of it. I think people have questions. What what are our have questions. What what are our have questions. What what are our resurrection bodies going to be like? resurrection bodies going to be like? resurrection bodies going to be like? You know, what what age am I going to You know, what what age am I going to You know, what what age am I going to be? Am I going to still have 70 extra be? Am I going to still have 70 extra be? Am I going to still have 70 extra pounds? You know, am I finally going to pounds? You know, am I finally going to pounds? You know, am I finally going to be at my ideal weight? What's my be at my ideal weight? What's my be at my ideal weight? What's my resurrection body going to be like? I I resurrection body going to be like? I I resurrection body going to be like? I I I think there are a lot of I think there are a lot of I think there are a lot of questions that let you know that people questions that let you know that people questions that let you know that people haven't studied what we can know from haven't studied what we can know from haven't studied what we can know from the scriptures.

the scriptures. the scriptures. And I I I do think allowing the And I I I do think allowing the And I I I do think allowing the scriptures to set the table of the scriptures to set the table of the scriptures to set the table of the priorities saying, "Okay, that's a priorities saying, "Okay, that's a priorities saying, "Okay, that's a question. That's a legitimate question, question. That's a legitimate question, question. That's a legitimate question, but it's interesting that scripture is but it's interesting that scripture is but it's interesting that scripture is most interested in this question." most interested in this question." most interested in this question." >> And most wants to point us to this thing >> And most wants to point us to this thing >> And most wants to point us to this thing to think about and fine to think about to think about and fine to think about to think about and fine to think about that. Theologians have thought about that. Theologians have thought about that. Theologians have thought about that. I can point you to books where that. I can point you to books where that. I can point you to books where they've thought about that. But these they've thought about that. But these they've thought about that. But these are the things that scripture mostly are the things that scripture mostly are the things that scripture mostly wants us to think about. That's a wants us to think about. That's a wants us to think about. That's a privilege too as a pastor to be able to privilege too as a pastor to be able to privilege too as a pastor to be able to I always tell people it's it's the very I always tell people it's it's the very I always tell people it's it's the very often you know people will say oh Jesus often you know people will say oh Jesus often you know people will say oh Jesus asked a lot of questions in in his asked a lot of questions in in his asked a lot of questions in in his ministry and that's true but very often ministry and that's true but very often ministry and that's true but very often the questions he asked were effectively the questions he asked were effectively the questions he asked were effectively saying your question isn't very good let saying your question isn't very good let saying your question isn't very good let me give you a better question to think me give you a better question to think me give you a better question to think about right so let Jesus and the Bible about right so let Jesus and the Bible about right so let Jesus and the Bible get you asking the most important get you asking the most important get you asking the most important questions especially in this area questions especially in this area questions especially in this area because there's every kind of crazy because there's every kind of crazy because there's every kind of crazy speculation out there in popular speculation out there in popular speculation out there in popular literature that your people can get a literature that your people can get a literature that your people can get a hold of. And so that's I think a part of hold of. And so that's I think a part of hold of. And so that's I think a part of helping people process this.

helping people process this. helping people process this. >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, one of the things >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, one of the things >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, one of the things that I I try to say in the introduction that I I try to say in the introduction that I I try to say in the introduction to my book on heaven is that my goal to my book on heaven is that my goal to my book on heaven is that my goal here is not to tell you everything you here is not to tell you everything you here is not to tell you everything you might want to know. Um, it is not a might want to know. Um, it is not a might want to know. Um, it is not a systematic breakdown even of everything systematic breakdown even of everything systematic breakdown even of everything the Bible has to say. What I'm trying to the Bible has to say. What I'm trying to the Bible has to say. What I'm trying to do is help you to see how the Bible do is help you to see how the Bible do is help you to see how the Bible applies the hope of heaven to the applies the hope of heaven to the applies the hope of heaven to the Christian life. Because most of the time Christian life. Because most of the time Christian life. Because most of the time when the scriptures go there, it isn't when the scriptures go there, it isn't when the scriptures go there, it isn't to answer our speculative questions. to answer our speculative questions. to answer our speculative questions. It's to help us It's to help us It's to help us >> to see what we're dealing with in the >> to see what we're dealing with in the >> to see what we're dealing with in the right way and not the wrong way. right way and not the wrong way. right way and not the wrong way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Priority is key. >> Priority is key. >> Priority is key. >> That's so good. And all of these things >> That's so good. And all of these things >> That's so good. And all of these things converge around the common denominator converge around the common denominator converge around the common denominator of trusting the heart and character of of trusting the heart and character of of trusting the heart and character of God. God. God. It's it's finally trusting God that's It's it's finally trusting God that's It's it's finally trusting God that's going to help us to face the scary going to help us to face the scary going to help us to face the scary prospect of death even those final days prospect of death even those final days prospect of death even those final days and hours. Uh knowing that he'll be with and hours. Uh knowing that he'll be with and hours. Uh knowing that he'll be with us to bring us across the the River us to bring us across the the River us to bring us across the the River Jordan. But it's also trusting his Jordan. But it's also trusting his Jordan. But it's also trusting his revelation in scripture that it's revelation in scripture that it's revelation in scripture that it's sufficient that all of the questions we sufficient that all of the questions we sufficient that all of the questions we may want asked uh answered uh if they're may want asked uh answered uh if they're may want asked uh answered uh if they're not answered for us in scripture, it's not answered for us in scripture, it's not answered for us in scripture, it's because we don't need to know that right because we don't need to know that right because we don't need to know that right now. I love how you put it. Like I think now. I love how you put it. Like I think now. I love how you put it. Like I think one of the best things we can do as one of the best things we can do as one of the best things we can do as pastors is to train our people to trust pastors is to train our people to trust pastors is to train our people to trust Christ. That his revelation is enough Christ. That his revelation is enough Christ. That his revelation is enough and that there's more than enough there and that there's more than enough there and that there's more than enough there for us to chew on, to feed on um and to

for us to chew on, to feed on um and to for us to chew on, to feed on um and to galvanize our hearts to to be ready to galvanize our hearts to to be ready to galvanize our hearts to to be ready to to face um death with courage and with to face um death with courage and with to face um death with courage and with hope. I think maybe the last thing I'll hope. I think maybe the last thing I'll hope. I think maybe the last thing I'll say just because this is a podcast for say just because this is a podcast for say just because this is a podcast for other pastors and uh they might be other pastors and uh they might be other pastors and uh they might be helped by this as I have been. It has helped by this as I have been. It has helped by this as I have been. It has been so helpful to me to to let the been so helpful to me to to let the been so helpful to me to to let the perspective of heaven perspective of heaven perspective of heaven as as where this is all going to end for as as where this is all going to end for as as where this is all going to end for us and for our people us and for our people us and for our people um drive my sense of urgency in the work um drive my sense of urgency in the work um drive my sense of urgency in the work that I'm doing here and now. Um, I try that I'm doing here and now. Um, I try that I'm doing here and now. Um, I try to imagine not just so much what's to imagine not just so much what's to imagine not just so much what's heaven going to be like, but being able heaven going to be like, but being able heaven going to be like, but being able to rejoice in God having come through on to rejoice in God having come through on to rejoice in God having come through on his promises with the people that I his promises with the people that I his promises with the people that I love. One of my favorite images for love. One of my favorite images for love. One of my favorite images for heaven is Isaiah 25. This this feast heaven is Isaiah 25. This this feast heaven is Isaiah 25. This this feast spread for all peoples on the mountain spread for all peoples on the mountain spread for all peoples on the mountain where death gets swallowed up as as part where death gets swallowed up as as part where death gets swallowed up as as part of the menu. of the menu. of the menu. But I love the way it ends because it But I love the way it ends because it But I love the way it ends because it ends with with Israel looking around at ends with with Israel looking around at ends with with Israel looking around at one another saying he's here like we one another saying he's here like we one another saying he's here like we have waited for him. It's communal have waited for him. It's communal have waited for him. It's communal scene, right? Where we're where friends scene, right? Where we're where friends scene, right? Where we're where friends with knowing looks at one another, with knowing looks at one another, with knowing looks at one another, knowing what their joys and their knowing what their joys and their knowing what their joys and their sorrows have been, what their doubts sorrows have been, what their doubts sorrows have been, what their doubts have been. Um knowing what the Lord had have been. Um knowing what the Lord had have been. Um knowing what the Lord had to carry them through to get them to to carry them through to get them to to carry them through to get them to this point. Look at each other and say, this point. Look at each other and say, this point. Look at each other and say, "We waited for him and he's here. He's "We waited for him and he's here. He's "We waited for him and he's here. He's here." Um I'm just longing for that. I'm here." Um I'm just longing for that. I'm here." Um I'm just longing for that. I'm longing for the vindication of our hope longing for the vindication of our hope longing for the vindication of our hope that we'll get to share with one that we'll get to share with one that we'll get to share with one another. And um and and it just helps to another. And um and and it just helps to another. And um and and it just helps to put in perspective some of the stuff put in perspective some of the stuff put in perspective some of the stuff about ministry that can get me down or

about ministry that can get me down or about ministry that can get me down or can can can annoy me. You know, I'll put can can can annoy me. You know, I'll put can can can annoy me. You know, I'll put up with whatever kind of emails I got to up with whatever kind of emails I got to up with whatever kind of emails I got to put up with or misjudgments or put up with or misjudgments or put up with or misjudgments or misunderstandings or or whatever if it misunderstandings or or whatever if it misunderstandings or or whatever if it ends there. ends there. ends there. So, uh let's be that voice crying in the So, uh let's be that voice crying in the So, uh let's be that voice crying in the wilderness until until he comes back to wilderness until until he comes back to wilderness until until he comes back to make all things new. make all things new. make all things new. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's not just help for the pastor in And it's not just help for the pastor in And it's not just help for the pastor in terms of how we view our members. It's terms of how we view our members. It's terms of how we view our members. It's also help for them and how they view one also help for them and how they view one also help for them and how they view one another. Hey brothers, sisters, another. Hey brothers, sisters, another. Hey brothers, sisters, >> that other church member that you >> that other church member that you >> that other church member that you struggle to be around, um guess what? struggle to be around, um guess what? struggle to be around, um guess what? One day if you could just get a glimpse One day if you could just get a glimpse One day if you could just get a glimpse >> of what they will look like in 10,000 >> of what they will look like in 10,000 >> of what they will look like in 10,000 years, you would be tempted to fall down years, you would be tempted to fall down years, you would be tempted to fall down and worship them. In other words, it's and worship them. In other words, it's and worship them. In other words, it's it's going to be it's going to be it's going to be >> such a um such a glorious reality that >> such a um such a glorious reality that >> such a um such a glorious reality that our little minds right now can't even our little minds right now can't even our little minds right now can't even comprehend comprehend comprehend >> as we get to enjoy Christ together >> as we get to enjoy Christ together >> as we get to enjoy Christ together forever. And what a what a way to put forever. And what a what a way to put forever. And what a what a way to put our current struggles, frustrations, our current struggles, frustrations, our current struggles, frustrations, even conflicts and divisions into even conflicts and divisions into even conflicts and divisions into perspective as we long for that day when perspective as we long for that day when perspective as we long for that day when Jesus splits the skies to return and Jesus splits the skies to return and Jesus splits the skies to return and make all things new.

make all things new. make all things new. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Amen. And one one final thing I just >> Amen. And one one final thing I just >> Amen. And one one final thing I just want to mention is so much of what we want to mention is so much of what we want to mention is so much of what we talked about reminds me of the book of talked about reminds me of the book of talked about reminds me of the book of Ecclesiastes. That would be a practical Ecclesiastes. That would be a practical Ecclesiastes. That would be a practical thing to consider is preaching through thing to consider is preaching through thing to consider is preaching through the book of Ecclesiastes. I know it may the book of Ecclesiastes. I know it may the book of Ecclesiastes. I know it may seem intimidating, but in our cultural seem intimidating, but in our cultural seem intimidating, but in our cultural moment, I think there's some really moment, I think there's some really moment, I think there's some really powerful fodder for reaching uh not just powerful fodder for reaching uh not just powerful fodder for reaching uh not just skeptics, but also death averse, death skeptics, but also death averse, death skeptics, but also death averse, death insulated uh believers. Uh, and there's insulated uh believers. Uh, and there's insulated uh believers. Uh, and there's there's a a new book by our friend Bobby there's a a new book by our friend Bobby there's a a new book by our friend Bobby Jameson called Everything Is Never Jameson called Everything Is Never Jameson called Everything Is Never Enough. Uh, in fact, it was dedicated in Enough. Uh, in fact, it was dedicated in Enough. Uh, in fact, it was dedicated in part to you, Matt, and it's it's a part to you, Matt, and it's it's a part to you, Matt, and it's it's a wonderful meditation on death, heaven wonderful meditation on death, heaven wonderful meditation on death, heaven from the perspective of someone who had from the perspective of someone who had from the perspective of someone who had it all under the sun, it all under the sun, it all under the sun, >> but found that even that was not enough. >> but found that even that was not enough. >> but found that even that was not enough. Um, and so there are of course other Um, and so there are of course other Um, and so there are of course other David Gibson and other wonderful David Gibson and other wonderful David Gibson and other wonderful resources out there on Ecclesiastes, but resources out there on Ecclesiastes, but resources out there on Ecclesiastes, but um, lean into that book, pastor, and I um, lean into that book, pastor, and I um, lean into that book, pastor, and I think you'll actually find more hope, think you'll actually find more hope, think you'll actually find more hope, joy, and opportunities to preach gospel joy, and opportunities to preach gospel joy, and opportunities to preach gospel grace than you may at first think.

grace than you may at first think. grace than you may at first think. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> Thanks for joining us for this >> Thanks for joining us for this >> Thanks for joining us for this conversation on the Everyday Pastor. conversation on the Everyday Pastor. conversation on the Everyday Pastor. Matt, it's been great to have you with Matt, it's been great to have you with Matt, it's been great to have you with us. And listeners, thank you for tuning us. And listeners, thank you for tuning us. And listeners, thank you for tuning in. We hope it's been useful to you even in. We hope it's been useful to you even in. We hope it's been useful to you even in stirring your own heart aresh uh in in stirring your own heart aresh uh in in stirring your own heart aresh uh in gratitude for what Jesus has gratitude for what Jesus has gratitude for what Jesus has accomplished for us and what awaits us accomplished for us and what awaits us accomplished for us and what awaits us in the world to come. Please do take a in the world to come. Please do take a in the world to come. Please do take a moment to leave a rating or review so moment to leave a rating or review so moment to leave a rating or review so that we can help other pastors find that we can help other pastors find that we can help other pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry.