Fighting Materialism in a Materialistic World (with Jen Oshman) [The Deep Dish - Ep. 30]

We seek to fill that eternal hole with We seek to fill that eternal hole with [music] temporary things and it just can [music] temporary things and it just can [music] temporary things and it just can never be filled to the brim. And so we never be filled to the brim. And so we never be filled to the brim. And so we seek more and seek more and our souls seek more and seek more and our souls seek more and seek more and our souls are like it's just not enough. It are like it's just not enough. It are like it's just not enough. It doesn't feel right. I need a little bit doesn't feel right. I need a little bit doesn't feel right. I need a little bit more. The bottom [music] line is we set more. The bottom [music] line is we set more. The bottom [music] line is we set our sights on the temporary rather than our sights on the temporary rather than our sights on the temporary rather than really keeping our vision at the really keeping our vision at the really keeping our vision at the eternal. eternal. eternal. [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from >> Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from >> Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Doctor and I'm here truths. I'm Courtney Doctor and I'm here truths. I'm Courtney Doctor and I'm here with my friend and co-host Melissa with my friend and co-host Melissa with my friend and co-host Melissa Krueger. And we are joined today by our Krueger. And we are joined today by our Krueger. And we are joined today by our very good friend Jen Ashman. I know most very good friend Jen Ashman. I know most very good friend Jen Ashman. I know most of you will know this, but Jen is a of you will know this, but Jen is a of you will know this, but Jen is a writer, a pastor's wife. She is a former writer, a pastor's wife. She is a former writer, a pastor's wife. She is a former overseas missionary. She is the mother overseas missionary. She is the mother overseas missionary. She is the mother to four daughters, the grandmother to to four daughters, the grandmother to to four daughters, the grandmother to one granddaughter, and the latest uh the one granddaughter, and the latest uh the one granddaughter, and the latest uh the youngest is a grandson. So, the first youngest is a grandson. So, the first youngest is a grandson. So, the first boy in the mix. Jen, thanks for joining boy in the mix. Jen, thanks for joining boy in the mix. Jen, thanks for joining us today. us today. us today. >> Oh, thank you, Courtney. It's so sweet >> Oh, thank you, Courtney. It's so sweet >> Oh, thank you, Courtney. It's so sweet to be with you guys.

to be with you guys. to be with you guys. >> And I'm so excited about this >> And I'm so excited about this >> And I'm so excited about this conversation. Today, we're going to be conversation. Today, we're going to be conversation. Today, we're going to be talking about materialism. I I I think talking about materialism. I I I think talking about materialism. I I I think I'm excited, actually. I'm excited, actually. I'm excited, actually. >> I was going to say, are you? I'm kind of >> I was going to say, are you? I'm kind of >> I was going to say, are you? I'm kind of scared. scared. scared. >> Yeah, exactly. I know. I'm like, oo, is >> Yeah, exactly. I know. I'm like, oo, is >> Yeah, exactly. I know. I'm like, oo, is this going to be convicting? I mean, it this going to be convicting? I mean, it this going to be convicting? I mean, it might be convicting and maybe I need to might be convicting and maybe I need to might be convicting and maybe I need to be convicted. So, um, we're going to be convicted. So, um, we're going to be convicted. So, um, we're going to talk about materialism, which is kind of talk about materialism, which is kind of talk about materialism, which is kind of just a preoccupation or an overly just a preoccupation or an overly just a preoccupation or an overly stressing of material things of this stressing of material things of this stressing of material things of this world, which, um, I think we all do. world, which, um, I think we all do. world, which, um, I think we all do. Look, we live in a world where we see a Look, we live in a world where we see a Look, we live in a world where we see a lot. I mean, we maybe see more than any lot. I mean, we maybe see more than any lot. I mean, we maybe see more than any other generation's ever seen. I mean, if other generation's ever seen. I mean, if other generation's ever seen. I mean, if you scroll down Instagram lane just a you scroll down Instagram lane just a you scroll down Instagram lane just a little bit, you're like, "Oh, I need little bit, you're like, "Oh, I need little bit, you're like, "Oh, I need this. Oh, I didn't even know that this. Oh, I didn't even know that this. Oh, I didn't even know that existed, and now I need it." You know? I existed, and now I need it." You know? I existed, and now I need it." You know? I mean, this is the world we live in. One mean, this is the world we live in. One mean, this is the world we live in. One thing that I think sometimes we assume thing that I think sometimes we assume thing that I think sometimes we assume is that it's easy to think of is that it's easy to think of is that it's easy to think of materialism as only something that like materialism as only something that like materialism as only something that like shallow people struggle with. Not us. I shallow people struggle with. Not us. I shallow people struggle with. Not us. I mean, we're not shallow. We're the deep mean, we're not shallow. We're the deep mean, we're not shallow. We're the deep dish. We're deep, right? So, we don't dish. We're deep, right? So, we don't dish. We're deep, right? So, we don't struggle with these things. Um, but you struggle with these things. Um, but you struggle with these things. Um, but you know, I think we all do at some level. I know, I think we all do at some level. I know, I think we all do at some level. I mean, every one of us can put our hope mean, every one of us can put our hope mean, every one of us can put our hope in the things of this world, can think, in the things of this world, can think, in the things of this world, can think, "Wow, life would just be so much easier "Wow, life would just be so much easier "Wow, life would just be so much easier if I had X, Y, or Z." As we think about if I had X, Y, or Z." As we think about if I had X, Y, or Z." As we think about this topic of materialism, what does the this topic of materialism, what does the this topic of materialism, what does the struggle look like in your own heart?

struggle look like in your own heart? struggle look like in your own heart? >> You know, I think the question is really >> You know, I think the question is really >> You know, I think the question is really difficult because none of us thinks that difficult because none of us thinks that difficult because none of us thinks that we're materialistic. I mean, it's just we're materialistic. I mean, it's just we're materialistic. I mean, it's just kind of a given. Our our reflex is I kind of a given. Our our reflex is I kind of a given. Our our reflex is I don't struggle with that. I'm not don't struggle with that. I'm not don't struggle with that. I'm not greedy. I'm not envious. I'm not greedy. I'm not envious. I'm not greedy. I'm not envious. I'm not covetous. You know, that's that's other covetous. You know, that's that's other covetous. You know, that's that's other people. We don't it's just not our first people. We don't it's just not our first people. We don't it's just not our first reflex to think that we have this sin reflex to think that we have this sin reflex to think that we have this sin issue in our lives. So I think it takes issue in our lives. So I think it takes issue in our lives. So I think it takes a minute um and maybe some prayer, some a minute um and maybe some prayer, some a minute um and maybe some prayer, some self-reflection, just some real self-reflection, just some real self-reflection, just some real humility, begging the Lord for some humility, begging the Lord for some humility, begging the Lord for some humility to ask this question of humility to ask this question of humility to ask this question of ourselves and give ourselves the time to ourselves and give ourselves the time to ourselves and give ourselves the time to respond with truth and ask the Lord for respond with truth and ask the Lord for respond with truth and ask the Lord for grace and that. So even even myself as I grace and that. So even even myself as I grace and that. So even even myself as I have studied this topic deeply, taught have studied this topic deeply, taught have studied this topic deeply, taught on it many times as I was preparing for on it many times as I was preparing for on it many times as I was preparing for this conversation over the last 24 this conversation over the last 24 this conversation over the last 24 hours, truly to myself, I'm saying I hours, truly to myself, I'm saying I hours, truly to myself, I'm saying I don't it's not really an issue in my don't it's not really an issue in my don't it's not really an issue in my life. And I knew I just had to kind of life. And I knew I just had to kind of life. And I knew I just had to kind of laugh cuz you're like, Jen, that's not laugh cuz you're like, Jen, that's not laugh cuz you're like, Jen, that's not true. It is an issue in your life. So, true. It is an issue in your life. So, true. It is an issue in your life. So, slow down. Stop the frenetic pace of the slow down. Stop the frenetic pace of the slow down. Stop the frenetic pace of the busyiness of this day, the scrolling, busyiness of this day, the scrolling, busyiness of this day, the scrolling, the consuming, the things that don't the consuming, the things that don't the consuming, the things that don't allow me to think deeply and really ask allow me to think deeply and really ask allow me to think deeply and really ask this question. And what I found I didn't this question. And what I found I didn't this question. And what I found I didn't love. I feel like I found a um a shallow love. I feel like I found a um a shallow love. I feel like I found a um a shallow dish answer and a deep dish answer.

dish answer and a deep dish answer. dish answer and a deep dish answer. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And the shallow dish answer is I um I'm And the shallow dish answer is I um I'm And the shallow dish answer is I um I'm just attracted to newer, better, just attracted to newer, better, just attracted to newer, better, shinier, prettier, and they're fun and shinier, prettier, and they're fun and shinier, prettier, and they're fun and make my life maybe more convenient. Um make my life maybe more convenient. Um make my life maybe more convenient. Um and I just enjoy new things and they and I just enjoy new things and they and I just enjoy new things and they also um maybe just make me feel better also um maybe just make me feel better also um maybe just make me feel better about myself to have them. That's kind about myself to have them. That's kind about myself to have them. That's kind of the shallow answer. of the shallow answer. of the shallow answer. The deeper answer which I've kind of had The deeper answer which I've kind of had The deeper answer which I've kind of had to struggle with actually over the last to struggle with actually over the last to struggle with actually over the last day just to be really honest and pray day just to be really honest and pray day just to be really honest and pray about and ask the Lord like what is the about and ask the Lord like what is the about and ask the Lord like what is the rootedness behind this rootedness behind this rootedness behind this is that I feel a sense of shame is that I feel a sense of shame is that I feel a sense of shame when I don't have or appear when I don't have or appear when I don't have or appear um like other people when I don't have um like other people when I don't have um like other people when I don't have what they have or when I don't appear as what they have or when I don't appear as what they have or when I don't appear as capable or as smart or as wealthy you capable or as smart or as wealthy you capable or as smart or as wealthy you know just if I don't have the material know just if I don't have the material know just if I don't have the material things that I can point to that are things that I can point to that are things that I can point to that are maybe on my person or in my home or on maybe on my person or in my home or on maybe on my person or in my home or on my social media, you know, accounts. I my social media, you know, accounts. I my social media, you know, accounts. I feel ashamed feel ashamed feel ashamed >> and I think what is behind that is a >> and I think what is behind that is a >> and I think what is behind that is a sense of identity that there's like sense of identity that there's like sense of identity that there's like worth wrapped up in what stuff and worth wrapped up in what stuff and worth wrapped up in what stuff and appearance and I have at a very deep appearance and I have at a very deep appearance and I have at a very deep level subconscious even bought the lie level subconscious even bought the lie level subconscious even bought the lie that my worth is equal to what I possess that my worth is equal to what I possess that my worth is equal to what I possess or what I can show other people. That's or what I can show other people. That's or what I can show other people. That's so good, Jen. That is so painful. It's so good, Jen. That is so painful. It's so good, Jen. That is so painful. It's because it's there. And even when you

because it's there. And even when you because it's there. And even when you were saying social media, you're like, were saying social media, you're like, were saying social media, you're like, "Yeah, the number of followers or the "Yeah, the number of followers or the "Yeah, the number of followers or the number of likes, like all those things number of likes, like all those things number of likes, like all those things that we can see." I mean, it's that's that we can see." I mean, it's that's that we can see." I mean, it's that's materialism at some at covetousness for materialism at some at covetousness for materialism at some at covetousness for sure, right? At some level. And I think sure, right? At some level. And I think sure, right? At some level. And I think I liked how you said the deep dish and I liked how you said the deep dish and I liked how you said the deep dish and the shallow dish. Um, when you said the shallow dish. Um, when you said the shallow dish. Um, when you said that, I was like, "Ooh, deep dish and that, I was like, "Ooh, deep dish and that, I was like, "Ooh, deep dish and thin crust." I've got that answer, too. thin crust." I've got that answer, too. thin crust." I've got that answer, too. Like the deep dish answer for me as I Like the deep dish answer for me as I Like the deep dish answer for me as I thought about this sort of the same thought about this sort of the same thought about this sort of the same thing like asking the Lord to reveal my thing like asking the Lord to reveal my thing like asking the Lord to reveal my heart is it's future it's savings for heart is it's future it's savings for heart is it's future it's savings for future like future security future future like future security future future like future security future financial so so that is a place that I financial so so that is a place that I financial so so that is a place that I can say man I really want to put my can say man I really want to put my can say man I really want to put my security security security in savings or you know or in like and in savings or you know or in like and in savings or you know or in like and it's the savings is there for the it's the savings is there for the it's the savings is there for the purpose of security and it's not just purpose of security and it's not just purpose of security and it's not just security it's not just that I will have security it's not just that I will have security it's not just that I will have enough. It's that I will have enough to enough. It's that I will have enough to enough. It's that I will have enough to maintain everything you're talking about maintain everything you're talking about maintain everything you're talking about or to get and to, you know, to have all or to get and to, you know, to have all or to get and to, you know, to have all of those things. And so, of those things. And so, of those things. And so, >> it's just enough to have fun.

>> it's just enough to have fun. >> it's just enough to have fun. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. I hear that and I was like, >> Exactly. I hear that and I was like, >> Exactly. I hear that and I was like, "Oh, yeah. No, no, I want to have "Oh, yeah. No, no, I want to have "Oh, yeah. No, no, I want to have >> I want enough." >> I want enough." >> I want enough." >> Yeah. Do is am I wondering am I gonna >> Yeah. Do is am I wondering am I gonna >> Yeah. Do is am I wondering am I gonna have enough to be generous? No, that's have enough to be generous? No, that's have enough to be generous? No, that's not my question. It's is it enough for not my question. It's is it enough for not my question. It's is it enough for me? And then I think the shallow or thin me? And then I think the shallow or thin me? And then I think the shallow or thin crust answer is that I see it on my crust answer is that I see it on my crust answer is that I see it on my Amazon just how quickly, you know, how Amazon just how quickly, you know, how Amazon just how quickly, you know, how quickly I'm like, "Oh, that's a great quickly I'm like, "Oh, that's a great quickly I'm like, "Oh, that's a great idea. I should have one of those. Do I idea. I should have one of those. Do I idea. I should have one of those. Do I really need it?" Nah, probably not. But really need it?" Nah, probably not. But really need it?" Nah, probably not. But um well, we've already kind of alluded um well, we've already kind of alluded um well, we've already kind of alluded to this, but we talked recently with to this, but we talked recently with to this, but we talked recently with Jackie about the topic of covetousness. Jackie about the topic of covetousness. Jackie about the topic of covetousness. And so, where's the intersection? How And so, where's the intersection? How And so, where's the intersection? How how is covetousness how is covetousness how is covetousness similar or dissimilar to materialism? similar or dissimilar to materialism? similar or dissimilar to materialism? Where's the overlap between those two Where's the overlap between those two Where's the overlap between those two things? things? things? >> Yeah, I mean you're right. We have kind >> Yeah, I mean you're right. We have kind >> Yeah, I mean you're right. We have kind of alluded to it and I think in our of alluded to it and I think in our of alluded to it and I think in our context they are really hard to pull context they are really hard to pull context they are really hard to pull apart because as Melissa said, we are apart because as Melissa said, we are apart because as Melissa said, we are seeing everybody else's stuff. People seeing everybody else's stuff. People seeing everybody else's stuff. People who live on the other side of the globe, who live on the other side of the globe, who live on the other side of the globe, people I haven't seen for decades, I see people I haven't seen for decades, I see people I haven't seen for decades, I see their material things and that leads their material things and that leads their material things and that leads often to covetousness. So they're ve in often to covetousness. So they're ve in often to covetousness. So they're ve in in our age, they're very closely in our age, they're very closely in our age, they're very closely related. Um, but I think you know, related. Um, but I think you know, related. Um, but I think you know, covetous obviously speaks to envy and covetous obviously speaks to envy and covetous obviously speaks to envy and just wanting the life that God gave just wanting the life that God gave just wanting the life that God gave somebody else and being discontent with somebody else and being discontent with somebody else and being discontent with the life that he gave us. While the life that he gave us. While the life that he gave us. While materialism and um just a bent towards materialism and um just a bent towards materialism and um just a bent towards material things is putting our identity, material things is putting our identity, material things is putting our identity, our hope, our trust in the things that our hope, our trust in the things that our hope, our trust in the things that we have. So they are distinct but they

we have. So they are distinct but they we have. So they are distinct but they do often overlap. So maybe what we covet do often overlap. So maybe what we covet do often overlap. So maybe what we covet ends up revealing materialism. ends up revealing materialism. ends up revealing materialism. >> That's a really good point. I think >> That's a really good point. I think >> That's a really good point. I think you're right. you're right. you're right. >> And I like to think of covetousness as >> And I like to think of covetousness as >> And I like to think of covetousness as like that big umbrella. So you might like that big umbrella. So you might like that big umbrella. So you might covet if you especially like I think covet if you especially like I think covet if you especially like I think about you Jen being overseas for so many about you Jen being overseas for so many about you Jen being overseas for so many years. Like you may coet oh being home years. Like you may coet oh being home years. Like you may coet oh being home for Christmas which is different than for Christmas which is different than for Christmas which is different than materialism that you know it can be materialism that you know it can be materialism that you know it can be wrapped up in good things like family or wrapped up in good things like family or wrapped up in good things like family or whatever but that's different than being whatever but that's different than being whatever but that's different than being like no I covet having my china or that like no I covet having my china or that like no I covet having my china or that china on you know that's more the china on you know that's more the china on you know that's more the materialism materialism materialism and so I almost think of it as a subset and so I almost think of it as a subset and so I almost think of it as a subset it's just one more thing under the big it's just one more thing under the big it's just one more thing under the big umbrella like I think of all of the ten umbrella like I think of all of the ten umbrella like I think of all of the ten commandments as kind of umbrella sins commandments as kind of umbrella sins commandments as kind of umbrella sins that have a lot under them that have a lot under them that have a lot under them >> you know So adultery, you know, there's >> you know So adultery, you know, there's >> you know So adultery, you know, there's a lot more there than just adultery, you a lot more there than just adultery, you a lot more there than just adultery, you know, in these. And and I think when it know, in these. And and I think when it know, in these. And and I think when it comes to this, I I do love thinking comes to this, I I do love thinking comes to this, I I do love thinking about Hebrews 13:15 about Hebrews 13:15 about Hebrews 13:15 because it is actually this call to be because it is actually this call to be because it is actually this call to be content. But it says, "Keep your life content. But it says, "Keep your life content. But it says, "Keep your life free from the love of money and be free from the love of money and be free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for he has content with what you have, for he has content with what you have, for he has said, I will never leave you nor forsake said, I will never leave you nor forsake said, I will never leave you nor forsake you."

you." you." Um, I think it's really interesting in Um, I think it's really interesting in Um, I think it's really interesting in this that the answer is not I'm going to this that the answer is not I'm going to this that the answer is not I'm going to provide. Yeah. Well, it is in some ways, provide. Yeah. Well, it is in some ways, provide. Yeah. Well, it is in some ways, I guess, but it's not um it's not I guess, but it's not um it's not I guess, but it's not um it's not provide you with material things. It's provide you with material things. It's provide you with material things. It's he's going to provide you with his he's going to provide you with his he's going to provide you with his presence, not the possessions you think presence, not the possessions you think presence, not the possessions you think you need. And so, how how do you look at you need. And so, how how do you look at you need. And so, how how do you look at this promise? And how is it a promise? this promise? And how is it a promise? this promise? And how is it a promise? And how does it actually help us battle And how does it actually help us battle And how does it actually help us battle materialism? materialism? materialism? >> Oh, yeah. You're getting right to the >> Oh, yeah. You're getting right to the >> Oh, yeah. You're getting right to the heart of the matter. I think I think we heart of the matter. I think I think we heart of the matter. I think I think we should say clearly that coveting and should say clearly that coveting and should say clearly that coveting and materialism, all these areas where our materialism, all these areas where our materialism, all these areas where our hearts are prone to wander are usually hearts are prone to wander are usually hearts are prone to wander are usually towards really good things. We tend to towards really good things. We tend to towards really good things. We tend to covet or desire things that are good covet or desire things that are good covet or desire things that are good gifts. Um so, you know, I I want nice gifts. Um so, you know, I I want nice gifts. Um so, you know, I I want nice clothes or I want a nice home or I want clothes or I want a nice home or I want clothes or I want a nice home or I want a nice life, a nice vacation, beauty a nice life, a nice vacation, beauty a nice life, a nice vacation, beauty around me. Those things are not bad in around me. Those things are not bad in around me. Those things are not bad in and of themselves. You know, our God is and of themselves. You know, our God is and of themselves. You know, our God is the creator of beauty. He is an artist.

the creator of beauty. He is an artist. the creator of beauty. He is an artist. He delights in how he made us to be He delights in how he made us to be He delights in how he made us to be creative and he made us to cultivate creative and he made us to cultivate creative and he made us to cultivate creation and to subdue it and to make creation and to subdue it and to make creation and to subdue it and to make beautiful things and to work the garden beautiful things and to work the garden beautiful things and to work the garden and to keep it. You know, he made us in and to keep it. You know, he made us in and to keep it. You know, he made us in his image. So these things that we his image. So these things that we his image. So these things that we desire, we come by them honestly because desire, we come by them honestly because desire, we come by them honestly because they are from the Lord and they're part they are from the Lord and they're part they are from the Lord and they're part of being made in his image. of being made in his image. of being made in his image. Further, they point to our next life, to Further, they point to our next life, to Further, they point to our next life, to life in the new heavens and the new life in the new heavens and the new life in the new heavens and the new earth. We were made to desire earth. We were made to desire earth. We were made to desire a safe, permanent, beautiful home. We a safe, permanent, beautiful home. We a safe, permanent, beautiful home. We were made to desire uh these good, deep were made to desire uh these good, deep were made to desire uh these good, deep gifts that God offers us in this gifts that God offers us in this gifts that God offers us in this lifetime, which is good, but temporary. lifetime, which is good, but temporary. lifetime, which is good, but temporary. We seek to fill that eternal hole We seek to fill that eternal hole We seek to fill that eternal hole with temporary things and it just can with temporary things and it just can with temporary things and it just can never be filled to the brim. And so we never be filled to the brim. And so we never be filled to the brim. And so we seek more and seek more and our souls seek more and seek more and our souls seek more and seek more and our souls are like it's just not enough. It are like it's just not enough. It are like it's just not enough. It doesn't feel right. I need a little bit doesn't feel right. I need a little bit doesn't feel right. I need a little bit more. Um and so I think the bottom line more. Um and so I think the bottom line more. Um and so I think the bottom line is we set our sights on the temporary is we set our sights on the temporary is we set our sights on the temporary rather than really keeping our vision at rather than really keeping our vision at rather than really keeping our vision at the eternal. So that that's a kind of a the eternal. So that that's a kind of a the eternal. So that that's a kind of a big answer we can unpack more, but I do big answer we can unpack more, but I do big answer we can unpack more, but I do think that's kind of at the crux of the think that's kind of at the crux of the think that's kind of at the crux of the matter. I love that. I think it's kind matter. I love that. I think it's kind matter. I love that. I think it's kind of at the crux of the parable of the of at the crux of the parable of the of at the crux of the parable of the prodigal son, too. It's the older prodigal son, too. It's the older prodigal son, too. It's the older brother, right? Like it's the all the brother, right? Like it's the all the brother, right? Like it's the all the all and and how does the father end up all and and how does the father end up all and and how does the father end up answering the son? He ends up saying, answering the son? He ends up saying, answering the son? He ends up saying, you know, every what does he say? Son, you know, every what does he say? Son, you know, every what does he say? Son, he said to him, you are always with me

he said to him, you are always with me he said to him, you are always with me and everything I have is yours. So, it's and everything I have is yours. So, it's and everything I have is yours. So, it's kind of that like I'm here and kind of that like I'm here and kind of that like I'm here and everything that you need like I will everything that you need like I will everything that you need like I will provide. But I was also thinking, you provide. But I was also thinking, you provide. But I was also thinking, you know, there's the Jesus told this know, there's the Jesus told this know, there's the Jesus told this parable of the rich fool. And I thought parable of the rich fool. And I thought parable of the rich fool. And I thought it was really interesting because Jesus it was really interesting because Jesus it was really interesting because Jesus said in it, he said, "Watch out and be said in it, he said, "Watch out and be said in it, he said, "Watch out and be on guard against all greed because on guard against all greed because on guard against all greed because because one's life is not in the because one's life is not in the because one's life is not in the abundance of his possessions." And then abundance of his possessions." And then abundance of his possessions." And then he tells this parable of this man who he tells this parable of this man who he tells this parable of this man who who's who's just living an abundant who's who's just living an abundant who's who's just living an abundant materially abundant life. His crops are materially abundant life. His crops are materially abundant life. His crops are producing more than he can imagine. And producing more than he can imagine. And producing more than he can imagine. And here's the question he asks. What should here's the question he asks. What should here's the question he asks. What should I do? meaning what should I do with this I do? meaning what should I do with this I do? meaning what should I do with this abundance of resources of wealth of abundance of resources of wealth of abundance of resources of wealth of material wealth what should I do and material wealth what should I do and material wealth what should I do and then he says since I don't have anywhere then he says since I don't have anywhere then he says since I don't have anywhere to store my crops and so his answer is to store my crops and so his answer is to store my crops and so his answer is his answer is just how should I store his answer is just how should I store his answer is just how should I store them how should I keep hoarding them them how should I keep hoarding them them how should I keep hoarding them more and more when the answer to what more and more when the answer to what more and more when the answer to what should I do would have been be generous should I do would have been be generous should I do would have been be generous but then he says I'll say to myself you but then he says I'll say to myself you but then he says I'll say to myself you have many goods stored up for many years have many goods stored up for many years have many goods stored up for many years and I think that that like I was you and I think that that like I was you and I think that that like I was you know just telling you like That's kind know just telling you like That's kind know just telling you like That's kind of this this um temptation that I feel of this this um temptation that I feel of this this um temptation that I feel is like to store up many goods for many is like to store up many goods for many is like to store up many goods for many years. But then it reveals why. And it years. But then it reveals why. And it years. But then it reveals why. And it says so that he could take it easy, eat, says so that he could take it easy, eat, says so that he could take it easy, eat, drink, and enjoy himself. And and this drink, and enjoy himself. And and this drink, and enjoy himself. And and this is when Jesus comes in with the lesson is when Jesus comes in with the lesson is when Jesus comes in with the lesson and he says um that's how it is. So the and he says um that's how it is. So the and he says um that's how it is. So the the man dies that night. He does not get the man dies that night. He does not get the man dies that night. He does not get to enjoy this abundance. And and the to enjoy this abundance. And and the to enjoy this abundance. And and the point is like that was not what he was point is like that was not what he was point is like that was not what he was supposed to do with all of that. And

supposed to do with all of that. And supposed to do with all of that. And then he says that's how it is with the then he says that's how it is with the then he says that's how it is with the one who stores up treasure for himself one who stores up treasure for himself one who stores up treasure for himself and is not rich towards God. But then if and is not rich towards God. But then if and is not rich towards God. But then if we go on to the very next verse, it's we go on to the very next verse, it's we go on to the very next verse, it's looks like a whole new story in the looks like a whole new story in the looks like a whole new story in the Bible because it has a heading. But he Bible because it has a heading. But he Bible because it has a heading. But he said, "Then he said to his disciples, said, "Then he said to his disciples, said, "Then he said to his disciples, therefore I tell you, don't worry about therefore I tell you, don't worry about therefore I tell you, don't worry about what your about your life, what you will what your about your life, what you will what your about your life, what you will eat or about your body, what you will eat or about your body, what you will eat or about your body, what you will wear." And so there's this antecdote to wear." And so there's this antecdote to wear." And so there's this antecdote to this temptation in all of us to store this temptation in all of us to store this temptation in all of us to store up. But I think if we if we have been up. But I think if we if we have been up. But I think if we if we have been blessed with abundance then the question blessed with abundance then the question blessed with abundance then the question what should I do is a really good what should I do is a really good what should I do is a really good question to ask that I think the Bible question to ask that I think the Bible question to ask that I think the Bible does give us clear answers too. Yeah does give us clear answers too. Yeah does give us clear answers too. Yeah definitely. You know that parable is so definitely. You know that parable is so definitely. You know that parable is so fascinating because he Jesus calls the fascinating because he Jesus calls the fascinating because he Jesus calls the man a fool for storing up his wealth and man a fool for storing up his wealth and man a fool for storing up his wealth and for just hoarding it. That's the that's for just hoarding it. That's the that's for just hoarding it. That's the that's the foolish thing is that he this man the foolish thing is that he this man the foolish thing is that he this man has put his hope in his extra. He has has put his hope in his extra. He has has put his hope in his extra. He has he's he's relying on what he has he's he's relying on what he has he's he's relying on what he has produced himself and it's all very produced himself and it's all very produced himself and it's all very self-focused. And the Lord says that's self-focused. And the Lord says that's self-focused. And the Lord says that's what's foolish. The foolishness is not what's foolish. The foolishness is not what's foolish. The foolishness is not actually being wealthy because we see actually being wealthy because we see actually being wealthy because we see plenty of examples throughout scripture plenty of examples throughout scripture plenty of examples throughout scripture um of those who are wealthy and are not um of those who are wealthy and are not um of those who are wealthy and are not condemned for being wealthy. Wealthy is condemned for being wealthy. Wealthy is condemned for being wealthy. Wealthy is not the problem. But the man's foolish not the problem. But the man's foolish not the problem. But the man's foolish because as you said, Courtney, he puts because as you said, Courtney, he puts because as you said, Courtney, he puts all of his hope in what he has hoarded.

all of his hope in what he has hoarded. all of his hope in what he has hoarded. And the Lord is like, you're you'll die And the Lord is like, you're you'll die And the Lord is like, you're you'll die and then what? That this is not actually and then what? That this is not actually and then what? That this is not actually the sum of your life. This is not the sum of your life. This is not the sum of your life. This is not actually going to save you. You have put actually going to save you. You have put actually going to save you. You have put your hope in the wrong thing. your hope in the wrong thing. your hope in the wrong thing. >> Mhm. Do you remember at the end of >> Mhm. Do you remember at the end of >> Mhm. Do you remember at the end of Schindler's List, it was the scene, I Schindler's List, it was the scene, I Schindler's List, it was the scene, I don't know if you all remember this, don't know if you all remember this, don't know if you all remember this, where he's pulling out things from his where he's pulling out things from his where he's pulling out things from his pockets, um, like a pen, and he's like, pockets, um, like a pen, and he's like, pockets, um, like a pen, and he's like, "This could have saved one more." Yes, "This could have saved one more." Yes, "This could have saved one more." Yes, this poignant scene of I have all this this poignant scene of I have all this this poignant scene of I have all this stuff and he realizes the immensity of stuff and he realizes the immensity of stuff and he realizes the immensity of people were saved, people were saved, people were saved, >> you know, and he realized, oh, I could >> you know, and he realized, oh, I could >> you know, and he realized, oh, I could have used this stuff. have used this stuff. have used this stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To save more. >> To save more. >> To save more. >> And I always think about that when I >> And I always think about that when I >> And I always think about that when I read Matthew 6 6:19 through 21. And read Matthew 6 6:19 through 21. And read Matthew 6 6:19 through 21. And here's what it says. Do not lay up for here's what it says. Do not lay up for here's what it says. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where yourselves treasures on earth, where yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves moth and rust destroy, and where thieves moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break it and steal, but lay up for break it and steal, but lay up for break it and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where yourselves treasures in heaven, where yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and neither moth nor rust destroys, and neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

where thieves do not break in and steal. where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your For where your treasure is, there your For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And I think about heart will be also. And I think about heart will be also. And I think about that a lot. It because it's not, again, that a lot. It because it's not, again, that a lot. It because it's not, again, we we've said possessions aren't bad in we we've said possessions aren't bad in we we've said possessions aren't bad in and of themselves, but they're to be and of themselves, but they're to be and of themselves, but they're to be used. they're, you know, they're they're used. they're, you know, they're they're used. they're, you know, they're they're to be stewarded in some ways. And so, in to be stewarded in some ways. And so, in to be stewarded in some ways. And so, in some ways, you know, it could be, yeah, some ways, you know, it could be, yeah, some ways, you know, it could be, yeah, hey, this crockpot, it helps me serve hey, this crockpot, it helps me serve hey, this crockpot, it helps me serve tons of people in my home for Bible tons of people in my home for Bible tons of people in my home for Bible study. That's a great way to use it. But study. That's a great way to use it. But study. That's a great way to use it. But it's the question of every every it's the question of every every it's the question of every every purchase is a choice in some sense. purchase is a choice in some sense. purchase is a choice in some sense. Like, could it be used for something Like, could it be used for something Like, could it be used for something better? Could, you know, could it be better? Could, you know, could it be better? Could, you know, could it be used to store up treasure in heaven? So, used to store up treasure in heaven? So, used to store up treasure in heaven? So, can we talk about that for a minute? can we talk about that for a minute? can we talk about that for a minute? What does it even mean to use what we've What does it even mean to use what we've What does it even mean to use what we've been given to store up treasure in been given to store up treasure in been given to store up treasure in heaven where things don't rust? Cuz you heaven where things don't rust? Cuz you heaven where things don't rust? Cuz you know, look, we've all every everyone of know, look, we've all every everyone of know, look, we've all every everyone of us has seen Christmas morning where, us has seen Christmas morning where, us has seen Christmas morning where, hey, that toy was so fun for about five hey, that toy was so fun for about five hey, that toy was so fun for about five minutes and now it's done. Well, maybe minutes and now it's done. Well, maybe minutes and now it's done. Well, maybe our toys last a year. Maybe they last a our toys last a year. Maybe they last a our toys last a year. Maybe they last a little longer, but in light of eternity, little longer, but in light of eternity, little longer, but in light of eternity, it's 5 minutes. Um, so what what does it it's 5 minutes. Um, so what what does it it's 5 minutes. Um, so what what does it actually mean to store up treasure in actually mean to store up treasure in actually mean to store up treasure in heaven with our stuff?

heaven with our stuff? heaven with our stuff? >> Yeah. I mean, I think it it's a it's a >> Yeah. I mean, I think it it's a it's a >> Yeah. I mean, I think it it's a it's a daily discipline and it's something I daily discipline and it's something I daily discipline and it's something I think we need to cultivate, you know, by think we need to cultivate, you know, by think we need to cultivate, you know, by being intentional about the word of God, being intentional about the word of God, being intentional about the word of God, asking the spirit of God to help us, but asking the spirit of God to help us, but asking the spirit of God to help us, but also inviting the people of God in our also inviting the people of God in our also inviting the people of God in our lives to um hold us accountable to it, lives to um hold us accountable to it, lives to um hold us accountable to it, to spur us on toward it, to give each to spur us on toward it, to give each to spur us on toward it, to give each other examples of what that might look other examples of what that might look other examples of what that might look like because this is not the direction like because this is not the direction like because this is not the direction of our flesh or our culture. And so it's of our flesh or our culture. And so it's of our flesh or our culture. And so it's going to be this minuteby- minute um going to be this minuteby- minute um going to be this minuteby- minute um seeking of God's help to practice this seeking of God's help to practice this seeking of God's help to practice this discipline. But I think it what it looks discipline. But I think it what it looks discipline. But I think it what it looks like is what we've been given is not like is what we've been given is not like is what we've been given is not wrong. I mean, we did not choose to be wrong. I mean, we did not choose to be wrong. I mean, we did not choose to be born into the wealthiest time and place born into the wealthiest time and place born into the wealthiest time and place in history, right? We have the access to in history, right? We have the access to in history, right? We have the access to more than kings of old. We have we have more than kings of old. We have we have more than kings of old. We have we have s such luxury and safety and health and s such luxury and safety and health and s such luxury and safety and health and convenience. Um and the Lord ordained convenience. Um and the Lord ordained convenience. Um and the Lord ordained that this is when we would be born. So that this is when we would be born. So that this is when we would be born. So how then will we steward it? As you how then will we steward it? As you how then will we steward it? As you said, Melissa. So these things aren't said, Melissa. So these things aren't said, Melissa. So these things aren't wrong to have but they cannot become our wrong to have but they cannot become our wrong to have but they cannot become our our false gods. They can't become you our false gods. They can't become you our false gods. They can't become you know where we go to for hope and know where we go to for hope and know where we go to for hope and identity and security and joy. They are identity and security and joy. They are identity and security and joy. They are means they are they are God's the means they are they are God's the means they are they are God's the resources that God has given us that we resources that God has given us that we resources that God has given us that we might love God and love others. You know might love God and love others. You know might love God and love others. You know those are the two greatest commandments those are the two greatest commandments those are the two greatest commandments that we all must obey. Love him and love that we all must obey. Love him and love that we all must obey. Love him and love others. We've been given the great others. We've been given the great others. We've been given the great commission to go. I mean we we know what commission to go. I mean we we know what commission to go. I mean we we know what we're meant to be doing as believers.

we're meant to be doing as believers. we're meant to be doing as believers. It's very clear in the New Testament. It's very clear in the New Testament. It's very clear in the New Testament. So, how then might we use these So, how then might we use these So, how then might we use these resources resources resources to point us to the Lord, to point others to point us to the Lord, to point others to point us to the Lord, to point others to the Lord? And not that every coffee to the Lord? And not that every coffee to the Lord? And not that every coffee date has to be a holy, worshipful date has to be a holy, worshipful date has to be a holy, worshipful moment. I don't mean that by any means. moment. I don't mean that by any means. moment. I don't mean that by any means. But how can we do those one anothers in But how can we do those one anothers in But how can we do those one anothers in scripture? How can we practice scripture? How can we practice scripture? How can we practice hospitality, rejoice with those who hospitality, rejoice with those who hospitality, rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn? How rejoice, mourn with those who mourn? How rejoice, mourn with those who mourn? How can we be intentional can we be intentional can we be intentional that that which we purchase or that that that which we purchase or that that that which we purchase or that which we practice doesn't end here? It's which we practice doesn't end here? It's which we practice doesn't end here? It's not for just a temporal feel-good um not for just a temporal feel-good um not for just a temporal feel-good um high self-care high that's gonna wayne, high self-care high that's gonna wayne, high self-care high that's gonna wayne, but it's something that points our own but it's something that points our own but it's something that points our own hearts and those that we're around to hearts and those that we're around to hearts and those that we're around to something beyond to the Lord. I love something beyond to the Lord. I love something beyond to the Lord. I love that. And I think that you know what that. And I think that you know what that. And I think that you know what you're like really addressing is this um you're like really addressing is this um you're like really addressing is this um idea of kind of this the foolish rich idea of kind of this the foolish rich idea of kind of this the foolish rich man in um in Luke 12. I had to go back man in um in Luke 12. I had to go back man in um in Luke 12. I had to go back and look at it in Luke 12 where he's and look at it in Luke 12 where he's and look at it in Luke 12 where he's like, I have an abundance. So the Lord like, I have an abundance. So the Lord like, I have an abundance. So the Lord provided that, right? There's nothing provided that, right? There's nothing provided that, right? There's nothing wrong with an abundance. His question wrong with an abundance. His question wrong with an abundance. His question is, what should I do with it? And then is, what should I do with it? And then is, what should I do with it? And then what we see is his answer is, I'm going what we see is his answer is, I'm going what we see is his answer is, I'm going to do I'm going to store it up for me, to do I'm going to store it up for me, to do I'm going to store it up for me, for my pleasure, for my good. And that's for my pleasure, for my good. And that's for my pleasure, for my good. And that's obviously where the foolishness comes.

obviously where the foolishness comes. obviously where the foolishness comes. And so, you're right. Wealth is not a And so, you're right. Wealth is not a And so, you're right. Wealth is not a problem in and of itself. But let me ask problem in and of itself. But let me ask problem in and of itself. But let me ask you this. Is it is materialism only a you this. Is it is materialism only a you this. Is it is materialism only a problem for the wealthy? Is it only a problem for the wealthy? Is it only a problem for the wealthy? Is it only a problem for those that have abundance? problem for those that have abundance? problem for those that have abundance? or can the the frugal and those that or can the the frugal and those that or can the the frugal and those that struggle financially, can materialism be struggle financially, can materialism be struggle financially, can materialism be a problem um for us in that situation a problem um for us in that situation a problem um for us in that situation too? I think it can be a problem for too? I think it can be a problem for too? I think it can be a problem for every human no matter our context every human no matter our context every human no matter our context because no matter what we have, we can because no matter what we have, we can because no matter what we have, we can always definitely want more and we can always definitely want more and we can always definitely want more and we can always misplace our hope. You know, I always misplace our hope. You know, I always misplace our hope. You know, I mean, I think one of the very sad mean, I think one of the very sad mean, I think one of the very sad realities of the last few decades of um realities of the last few decades of um realities of the last few decades of um what we've seen in the global church is what we've seen in the global church is what we've seen in the global church is a spread of the health and wealth gospel a spread of the health and wealth gospel a spread of the health and wealth gospel in some places that are very poor. And in some places that are very poor. And in some places that are very poor. And that what I mean by that is that false that what I mean by that is that false that what I mean by that is that false teachers have sprung up in places where teachers have sprung up in places where teachers have sprung up in places where they suffer terrible poverty um and they they suffer terrible poverty um and they they suffer terrible poverty um and they have a lack of health care and a lack of have a lack of health care and a lack of have a lack of health care and a lack of access to things. and they've been access to things. and they've been access to things. and they've been taught, you know, believe this specific taught, you know, believe this specific taught, you know, believe this specific gospel, believe in God, and he'll make gospel, believe in God, and he'll make gospel, believe in God, and he'll make you rich, you know, and that is that's you rich, you know, and that is that's you rich, you know, and that is that's not true. But it's it just shows the not true. But it's it just shows the not true. But it's it just shows the propensity for anybody in any context to propensity for anybody in any context to propensity for anybody in any context to go, "Yeah, I want more. I just want I go, "Yeah, I want more. I just want I go, "Yeah, I want more. I just want I want more." And that's it's good to have want more." And that's it's good to have want more." And that's it's good to have more. So, I think whether you're rich or more. So, I think whether you're rich or more. So, I think whether you're rich or poor, this is a struggle. I think it's poor, this is a struggle. I think it's poor, this is a struggle. I think it's especially probably dangerous for those especially probably dangerous for those especially probably dangerous for those who are wealthy because we put our hope who are wealthy because we put our hope who are wealthy because we put our hope in it without a second thought. And in it without a second thought. And in it without a second thought. And those who don't have that those guard those who don't have that those guard those who don't have that those guard rails and that ample um security

rails and that ample um security rails and that ample um security available to them might be more likely available to them might be more likely available to them might be more likely to cry out to God. I think in that's to cry out to God. I think in that's to cry out to God. I think in that's like a proverbial generalization, but like a proverbial generalization, but like a proverbial generalization, but this is something anybody can stumble this is something anybody can stumble this is something anybody can stumble over. over. over. >> Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest >> Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest >> Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things is what do we trust in things is what do we trust in things is what do we trust in >> like oh well I can just oh that breaks >> like oh well I can just oh that breaks >> like oh well I can just oh that breaks down. Oh, I'll just get a new one. I can down. Oh, I'll just get a new one. I can down. Oh, I'll just get a new one. I can order it really quickly. And in our order it really quickly. And in our order it really quickly. And in our wealthy culture, it I think it promotes wealthy culture, it I think it promotes wealthy culture, it I think it promotes isolation from others. You know, I don't isolation from others. You know, I don't isolation from others. You know, I don't need to share with my neighbor anything. need to share with my neighbor anything. need to share with my neighbor anything. If I actually see that my neighbor has If I actually see that my neighbor has If I actually see that my neighbor has something I want, I just go get it something I want, I just go get it something I want, I just go get it rather than like can I borrow yours, you rather than like can I borrow yours, you rather than like can I borrow yours, you know, or like communal living, which is know, or like communal living, which is know, or like communal living, which is what you would have done in the past what you would have done in the past what you would have done in the past maybe, is say, oh, let's all share this maybe, is say, oh, let's all share this maybe, is say, oh, let's all share this resource together. And instead, you resource together. And instead, you resource together. And instead, you know, the more material goods we have, know, the more material goods we have, know, the more material goods we have, almost the more isolated we become in almost the more isolated we become in almost the more isolated we become in some ways. some ways. some ways. >> Um, okay. So, I'm already feeling >> Um, okay. So, I'm already feeling >> Um, okay. So, I'm already feeling convicted by this conversation. Um, and convicted by this conversation. Um, and convicted by this conversation. Um, and I'm like, I need to give everything away I'm like, I need to give everything away I'm like, I need to give everything away [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and do all these things.

and do all these things. and do all these things. >> How how do we discern >> How how do we discern >> How how do we discern >> whether this is a problem in our lives? >> whether this is a problem in our lives? >> whether this is a problem in our lives? like a real pro like how you know I like a real pro like how you know I like a real pro like how you know I think it's it's easy to say in our minds think it's it's easy to say in our minds think it's it's easy to say in our minds no it's not a problem for me it's a no it's not a problem for me it's a no it's not a problem for me it's a problem for her problem for her problem for her >> you know like I can totally see how >> you know like I can totally see how >> you know like I can totally see how Courtney is struggling with I'm Courtney is struggling with I'm Courtney is struggling with I'm [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] no I can't I'm literally thinking no I can't I'm literally thinking no I can't I'm literally thinking Courtney's so good at getting rid of Courtney's so good at getting rid of Courtney's so good at getting rid of things I'm terrible at getting rid of things I'm terrible at getting rid of things I'm terrible at getting rid of things things things >> just because I'm not a hoarder doesn't >> just because I'm not a hoarder doesn't >> just because I'm not a hoarder doesn't mean I'm not materialistic [laughter] mean I'm not materialistic [laughter] mean I'm not materialistic [laughter] but yeah so what are the signs then but yeah so what are the signs then but yeah so what are the signs then because I'm I'm watching my daughter you because I'm I'm watching my daughter you because I'm I'm watching my daughter you know she's getting ready to move know she's getting ready to move know she's getting ready to move overseas they just got rid of everything overseas they just got rid of everything overseas they just got rid of everything She gave her couch to people. All these, She gave her couch to people. All these, She gave her couch to people. All these, you know, they had just gotten married you know, they had just gotten married you know, they had just gotten married recently and they're giving all this recently and they're giving all this recently and they're giving all this stuff away and I'm like, what are you stuff away and I'm like, what are you stuff away and I'm like, what are you doing? Um, but it's I also see such doing? Um, but it's I also see such doing? Um, but it's I also see such freedom in it, you know. So, how how do freedom in it, you know. So, how how do freedom in it, you know. So, how how do we recognize this in our own hearts? we recognize this in our own hearts? we recognize this in our own hearts? Because again, I think it's always easy Because again, I think it's always easy Because again, I think it's always easy to recognize it in the person who has a to recognize it in the person who has a to recognize it in the person who has a little just a little bit more than you. little just a little bit more than you. little just a little bit more than you. >> They're clearly materialistic. But how >> They're clearly materialistic. But how >> They're clearly materialistic. But how do we how do we know if it's simmering do we how do we know if it's simmering do we how do we know if it's simmering in our own hearts? Well, and I think in our own hearts? Well, and I think in our own hearts? Well, and I think even just what you were saying, like even just what you were saying, like even just what you were saying, like we've kind of talked about this idea we've kind of talked about this idea we've kind of talked about this idea that yes, I think that this is a that yes, I think that this is a that yes, I think that this is a distinct type of temptation for those distinct type of temptation for those distinct type of temptation for those who have abundance um of wealth and of who have abundance um of wealth and of who have abundance um of wealth and of possessions and it manifests itself in a possessions and it manifests itself in a possessions and it manifests itself in a very certain way. But I also think for very certain way. But I also think for very certain way. But I also think for the uber frugal person that does want to the uber frugal person that does want to the uber frugal person that does want to like that the question there needs to be like that the question there needs to be like that the question there needs to be what am I because frugal can also it's

what am I because frugal can also it's what am I because frugal can also it's it's the flip side of that is stingy it's the flip side of that is stingy it's the flip side of that is stingy right and not generous. And so so the right and not generous. And so so the right and not generous. And so so the overly frugal person the person who overly frugal person the person who overly frugal person the person who really prides herself on her frugality I really prides herself on her frugality I really prides herself on her frugality I think that's a form that's a that's a think that's a form that's a that's a think that's a form that's a that's a version and a flavor of materialism. And version and a flavor of materialism. And version and a flavor of materialism. And then I think for the person who really then I think for the person who really then I think for the person who really lacks um who lacks material financial lacks um who lacks material financial lacks um who lacks material financial provision that spends money in ways to provision that spends money in ways to provision that spends money in ways to gain things that they really don't have gain things that they really don't have gain things that they really don't have the money for. I mean this unbelievable the money for. I mean this unbelievable the money for. I mean this unbelievable credit card debt that just surrounds us credit card debt that just surrounds us credit card debt that just surrounds us everywhere is definitely a sign and everywhere is definitely a sign and everywhere is definitely a sign and symptom of materialism at some level. symptom of materialism at some level. symptom of materialism at some level. Now do emergencies come up? Are there Now do emergencies come up? Are there Now do emergencies come up? Are there reasons people get into into credit card reasons people get into into credit card reasons people get into into credit card debt? Absolutely. But the the vast debt? Absolutely. But the the vast debt? Absolutely. But the the vast majority of credit card debt is the majority of credit card debt is the majority of credit card debt is the attempt to grab at I just I know I don't attempt to grab at I just I know I don't attempt to grab at I just I know I don't have the money for it, but I'm going to have the money for it, but I'm going to have the money for it, but I'm going to buy it anyway because it is going to buy it anyway because it is going to buy it anyway because it is going to provide something for me. It's going to provide something for me. It's going to provide something for me. It's going to provide identity or it's going to provide identity or it's going to provide identity or it's going to provide safety or it's going to provide provide safety or it's going to provide provide safety or it's going to provide happiness, whatever it is. And so I happiness, whatever it is. And so I happiness, whatever it is. And so I think that like this idea is um is for think that like this idea is um is for think that like this idea is um is for all of us. But we all struggle, I would all of us. But we all struggle, I would all of us. But we all struggle, I would say, with materialism in some way, shape say, with materialism in some way, shape say, with materialism in some way, shape or form. Like you said, Jen, in very or form. Like you said, Jen, in very or form. Like you said, Jen, in very impoverished parts of the world, the impoverished parts of the world, the impoverished parts of the world, the fact that the health and wealth gospel fact that the health and wealth gospel fact that the health and wealth gospel is taking off so rapidly really is taking off so rapidly really is taking off so rapidly really indicates the desire like if because indicates the desire like if because indicates the desire like if because that becomes the God, right? If I that becomes the God, right? If I that becomes the God, right? If I promise you that you're going to be promise you that you're going to be promise you that you're going to be healthy and wealthy and that's what healthy and wealthy and that's what healthy and wealthy and that's what you're worshiping God for, well, really you're worshiping God for, well, really you're worshiping God for, well, really your God is your health and your wealth.

your God is your health and your wealth. your God is your health and your wealth. And so I think that for all of us, no And so I think that for all of us, no And so I think that for all of us, no matter if we are impoverished, if we're matter if we are impoverished, if we're matter if we are impoverished, if we're on the poverty line, if we're really on the poverty line, if we're really on the poverty line, if we're really frugal, if we're not a hoarder, if we frugal, if we're not a hoarder, if we frugal, if we're not a hoarder, if we have abundance, I think the question has have abundance, I think the question has have abundance, I think the question has to be where is generosity in my life? to be where is generosity in my life? to be where is generosity in my life? And what does generosity look like? Um, And what does generosity look like? Um, And what does generosity look like? Um, no matter what my my abundance looks no matter what my my abundance looks no matter what my my abundance looks like or lack thereof, is generosity a like or lack thereof, is generosity a like or lack thereof, is generosity a part of my a part of my life? because I part of my a part of my life? because I part of my a part of my life? because I think that's the anecdote to um think that's the anecdote to um think that's the anecdote to um materialism. materialism. materialism. >> I think that is so good. And I think >> I think that is so good. And I think >> I think that is so good. And I think what you're what you're getting at with what you're what you're getting at with what you're what you're getting at with generosity is um sacrificing myself. Can generosity is um sacrificing myself. Can generosity is um sacrificing myself. Can I pursue some inconvenience and some I pursue some inconvenience and some I pursue some inconvenience and some lack so that I might bless God and bless lack so that I might bless God and bless lack so that I might bless God and bless others? And a part of this conversation others? And a part of this conversation others? And a part of this conversation that I don't want to have or think that I don't want to have or think that I don't want to have or think about, but I that keeps sort of like about, but I that keeps sort of like about, but I that keeps sort of like tapping me on the shoulder is that Jesus tapping me on the shoulder is that Jesus tapping me on the shoulder is that Jesus says our growth and our Christlikkeness says our growth and our Christlikkeness says our growth and our Christlikkeness is going to come through suffering. I is going to come through suffering. I is going to come through suffering. I mean, that is a theme throughout the New mean, that is a theme throughout the New mean, that is a theme throughout the New Testament. Take up your cross and follow Testament. Take up your cross and follow Testament. Take up your cross and follow me. I came to serve and not be served.

me. I came to serve and not be served. me. I came to serve and not be served. His kingdom is upside down. And so we His kingdom is upside down. And so we His kingdom is upside down. And so we who say we want to follow him then have who say we want to follow him then have who say we want to follow him then have to pursue suffering in some way. And not to pursue suffering in some way. And not to pursue suffering in some way. And not not for suffering's sake. Not to be like not for suffering's sake. Not to be like not for suffering's sake. Not to be like I now I put my hope and my identity and I now I put my hope and my identity and I now I put my hope and my identity and my trust and I've suffered so much my trust and I've suffered so much my trust and I've suffered so much therefore I'll be saved. It's not that's therefore I'll be saved. It's not that's therefore I'll be saved. It's not that's not the end. But what if we went not the end. But what if we went not the end. But what if we went without? What if we pursued generosity without? What if we pursued generosity without? What if we pursued generosity and chose some inconvenience? even chose and chose some inconvenience? even chose and chose some inconvenience? even chose to go without or even chose some to go without or even chose some to go without or even chose some suffering suffering suffering so that we could be like Christ and not so that we could be like Christ and not so that we could be like Christ and not in a means of earning anything from him in a means of earning anything from him in a means of earning anything from him but identifying with him in his but identifying with him in his but identifying with him in his suffering and saying and practicing suffering and saying and practicing suffering and saying and practicing Jesus is better Jesus is better than me Jesus is better Jesus is better than me Jesus is better Jesus is better than me having X Y or Z and I'm going to put having X Y or Z and I'm going to put having X Y or Z and I'm going to put that to the test by not purchasing it or that to the test by not purchasing it or that to the test by not purchasing it or not doing it and seeking him and finding not doing it and seeking him and finding not doing it and seeking him and finding him to satisfy me in a way that the him to satisfy me in a way that the him to satisfy me in a way that the material goods cannot.

material goods cannot. material goods cannot. >> Yeah. When you're saying all that, I was >> Yeah. When you're saying all that, I was >> Yeah. When you're saying all that, I was thinking thinking thinking as you were talking about just the as you were talking about just the as you were talking about just the weight of responsibility that has been weight of responsibility that has been weight of responsibility that has been given to us. You know, he has been given given to us. You know, he has been given given to us. You know, he has been given much much is required. Um, much much is required. Um, much much is required. Um, but particularly if I viewed myself as a but particularly if I viewed myself as a but particularly if I viewed myself as a steward rather than an owner. Like steward rather than an owner. Like steward rather than an owner. Like because here's the thing, what gets in because here's the thing, what gets in because here's the thing, what gets in my brain is I work hard. I deserve it. my brain is I work hard. I deserve it. my brain is I work hard. I deserve it. Like that's the sin in my heart. Like I Like that's the sin in my heart. Like I Like that's the sin in my heart. Like I have earned this money. I would never have earned this money. I would never have earned this money. I would never say I've earned grace. say I've earned grace. say I've earned grace. You know, I I've got that pretty clearly You know, I I've got that pretty clearly You know, I I've got that pretty clearly down that I'm desperately needy. But down that I'm desperately needy. But down that I'm desperately needy. But what if we actually viewed our salaries what if we actually viewed our salaries what if we actually viewed our salaries as God's provision in our life and his as God's provision in our life and his as God's provision in our life and his gift to us, not something we earn too. gift to us, not something we earn too. gift to us, not something we earn too. Like this is this is this thing my brain Like this is this is this thing my brain Like this is this is this thing my brain doesn't want to even hear me say this. doesn't want to even hear me say this. doesn't want to even hear me say this. Um, [laughter] Um, [laughter] Um, [laughter] but like what if you know I said okay but like what if you know I said okay but like what if you know I said okay this you gave me now how do I steward it this you gave me now how do I steward it this you gave me now how do I steward it well rather than it's my right so I'll well rather than it's my right so I'll well rather than it's my right so I'll save some I'll spend some I'll give some save some I'll spend some I'll give some save some I'll spend some I'll give some you know whatever you know these things you know whatever you know these things you know whatever you know these things well what does radical generosity look well what does radical generosity look well what does radical generosity look like not not just you know what I'm like not not just you know what I'm like not not just you know what I'm checking a box so I feel kind of good checking a box so I feel kind of good checking a box so I feel kind of good about myself and pat myself on the back about myself and pat myself on the back about myself and pat myself on the back but what would it look like if the but what would it look like if the but what would it look like if the American in church collectively but even American in church collectively but even American in church collectively but even individually if we started doing this individually if we started doing this individually if we started doing this what would how would the world look what would how would the world look what would how would the world look different and how would our souls look different and how would our souls look different and how would our souls look different

different different >> these are big questions because I think >> these are big questions because I think >> these are big questions because I think we're actually thinking it's going to be we're actually thinking it's going to be we're actually thinking it's going to be this death to self where we we know any this death to self where we we know any this death to self where we we know any death to self always produces life you death to self always produces life you death to self always produces life you know I mean so this this is you know and know I mean so this this is you know and know I mean so this this is you know and and I want to get to this in the next and I want to get to this in the next and I want to get to this in the next part of our conversation but before we part of our conversation but before we part of our conversation but before we do I'm gonna leave you with that like do I'm gonna leave you with that like do I'm gonna leave you with that like we're going to get to something bigger we're going to get to something bigger we're going to get to something bigger and something better Um, let's hear a and something better Um, let's hear a and something better Um, let's hear a word from our sponsors who are helping word from our sponsors who are helping word from our sponsors who are helping us have this conversation. us have this conversation. us have this conversation. >> Well, welcome back. Uh, Melissa, I was >> Well, welcome back. Uh, Melissa, I was >> Well, welcome back. Uh, Melissa, I was just thinking about what you were saying just thinking about what you were saying just thinking about what you were saying before we took that break. And I used to before we took that break. And I used to before we took that break. And I used to get so irritated with my husband for the get so irritated with my husband for the get so irritated with my husband for the way he phrases something over and he way he phrases something over and he way he phrases something over and he still does it, but I've learned how how still does it, but I've learned how how still does it, but I've learned how how helpful it is. But he always says like, helpful it is. But he always says like, helpful it is. But he always says like, >> "This is the house that the Lord's >> "This is the house that the Lord's >> "This is the house that the Lord's letting us live in," or, "This is the letting us live in," or, "This is the letting us live in," or, "This is the car that the Lord is letting us drive." car that the Lord is letting us drive." car that the Lord is letting us drive." And and I used to just be like, "Okay, I And and I used to just be like, "Okay, I And and I used to just be like, "Okay, I got it." You know, like whatever it is, got it." You know, like whatever it is, got it." You know, like whatever it is, this is the vacation the Lord is letting this is the vacation the Lord is letting this is the vacation the Lord is letting us have. But it's so helpful to do us have. But it's so helpful to do us have. But it's so helpful to do exactly what you're just saying is to exactly what you're just saying is to exactly what you're just saying is to even just say those things to oursel and even just say those things to oursel and even just say those things to oursel and to others just as a reminder of like to others just as a reminder of like to others just as a reminder of like this all belongs. This all belongs um to this all belongs. This all belongs um to this all belongs. This all belongs um to him. Well, I want to ask a question him. Well, I want to ask a question him. Well, I want to ask a question about friendships because in this so about friendships because in this so about friendships because in this so we've kind of said materialism is in all we've kind of said materialism is in all we've kind of said materialism is in all of us at least the big umbrella of of us at least the big umbrella of of us at least the big umbrella of covetousness for sure is in all of us covetousness for sure is in all of us covetousness for sure is in all of us and materialism in one form or fashion I and materialism in one form or fashion I and materialism in one form or fashion I I think is back to your points Jen like I think is back to your points Jen like I think is back to your points Jen like this is part of the culture in which God

this is part of the culture in which God this is part of the culture in which God ordained that we live and move and have ordained that we live and move and have ordained that we live and move and have our being. But what effect do our being. But what effect do our being. But what effect do friendships have on either the increase friendships have on either the increase friendships have on either the increase of materialism in our own hearts and of materialism in our own hearts and of materialism in our own hearts and minds or the battle against that minds or the battle against that minds or the battle against that materialism? materialism? materialism? Yeah, I think friendships are huge Yeah, I think friendships are huge Yeah, I think friendships are huge because we are communal people made in because we are communal people made in because we are communal people made in God's image. We we need community. We're God's image. We we need community. We're God's image. We we need community. We're made for community. And so friendships, made for community. And so friendships, made for community. And so friendships, the people of God have to play a role the people of God have to play a role the people of God have to play a role here. And I think it's so interesting, here. And I think it's so interesting, here. And I think it's so interesting, especially in the American church, how especially in the American church, how especially in the American church, how taboo finances are. I mean, our Bible taboo finances are. I mean, our Bible taboo finances are. I mean, our Bible studies and our pastors can preach about studies and our pastors can preach about studies and our pastors can preach about so many things that are uncomfortable so many things that are uncomfortable so many things that are uncomfortable and awkward, but when they start to talk and awkward, but when they start to talk and awkward, but when they start to talk about money, it this is like the one I about money, it this is like the one I about money, it this is like the one I think this is one area where we're think this is one area where we're think this is one area where we're freaking out. I mean, everybody is freaking out. I mean, everybody is freaking out. I mean, everybody is suddenly totally uncomfortable, totally suddenly totally uncomfortable, totally suddenly totally uncomfortable, totally nervous. The pastor is making nervous nervous. The pastor is making nervous nervous. The pastor is making nervous jokes from up front, you know, he's jokes from up front, you know, he's jokes from up front, you know, he's like, "I've got to go here." It's it's like, "I've got to go here." It's it's like, "I've got to go here." It's it's just so taboo. just so taboo. just so taboo. How many people know what your income How many people know what your income How many people know what your income is, is, is, what you give, what you save? Like, what you give, what you save? Like, what you give, what you save? Like, who's looking at your spreadsheet? Who's who's looking at your spreadsheet? Who's who's looking at your spreadsheet? Who's looking at your accounts? I think it is looking at your accounts? I think it is looking at your accounts? I think it is key that we invite our brothers and key that we invite our brothers and key that we invite our brothers and sisters into that conversation because sisters into that conversation because sisters into that conversation because nothing good happens in the dark.

nothing good happens in the dark. nothing good happens in the dark. Nothing good grows in secret. And so, Nothing good grows in secret. And so, Nothing good grows in secret. And so, what if we invited other believers that what if we invited other believers that what if we invited other believers that we trust? And I'm not saying, you know, we trust? And I'm not saying, you know, we trust? And I'm not saying, you know, everybody needs to put it up on a everybody needs to put it up on a everybody needs to put it up on a PowerPoint in front of their Sunday PowerPoint in front of their Sunday PowerPoint in front of their Sunday morning worship, but like a couple morning worship, but like a couple morning worship, but like a couple friends, hey, friends, hey, friends, hey, >> come see. So good, Jen. >> come see. So good, Jen. >> come see. So good, Jen. >> It's so hard. It's so Well, even if >> It's so hard. It's so Well, even if >> It's so hard. It's so Well, even if you're talking and I'm like, okay, what you're talking and I'm like, okay, what you're talking and I'm like, okay, what is my why am why is my heart resistant is my why am why is my heart resistant is my why am why is my heart resistant to that? to that? to that? >> I know, you know, >> I know, you know, >> I know, you know, >> and it's like, wow, that is I had a >> and it's like, wow, that is I had a >> and it's like, wow, that is I had a friend that was very open about her friend that was very open about her friend that was very open about her giving. And I just at first remember giving. And I just at first remember giving. And I just at first remember thinking, do not let your right hand thinking, do not let your right hand thinking, do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. like know what your left hand is doing. like know what your left hand is doing. like you should not be talking about that. you should not be talking about that. you should not be talking about that. But it was so helpful. Like it was just But it was so helpful. Like it was just But it was so helpful. Like it was just so she she was not doing it in a so she she was not doing it in a so she she was not doing it in a braggadocious way, but it was it was it braggadocious way, but it was it was it braggadocious way, but it was it was it compelled me towards more financial compelled me towards more financial compelled me towards more financial generosity because I was like, "Oh, generosity because I was like, "Oh, generosity because I was like, "Oh, that's a great example." And we do that that's a great example." And we do that that's a great example." And we do that in other things, right? We do it in in other things, right? We do it in in other things, right? We do it in everything. I go to the gym with friends everything. I go to the gym with friends everything. I go to the gym with friends because I want to work out harder. So, I because I want to work out harder. So, I because I want to work out harder. So, I should probably go to my bank with my should probably go to my bank with my should probably go to my bank with my friends so I can give harder. Like, we friends so I can give harder. Like, we friends so I can give harder. Like, we have we need other people to spur us on have we need other people to spur us on have we need other people to spur us on in this. Just yesterday, I was thinking in this. Just yesterday, I was thinking in this. Just yesterday, I was thinking about a woman. She's now with the Lord.

about a woman. She's now with the Lord. about a woman. She's now with the Lord. Um, and she and her husband made a Um, and she and her husband made a Um, and she and her husband made a really conscious decision that they were really conscious decision that they were really conscious decision that they were going to live on a certain amount. And I going to live on a certain amount. And I going to live on a certain amount. And I don't know what the amount was. I'm don't know what the amount was. I'm don't know what the amount was. I'm sure, you know, they they were doing sure, you know, they they were doing sure, you know, they they were doing fine or whatever. And I'm sure it went fine or whatever. And I'm sure it went fine or whatever. And I'm sure it went up. Cost of living increases, I'm sure, up. Cost of living increases, I'm sure, up. Cost of living increases, I'm sure, were in there. They were very were in there. They were very were in there. They were very financially astute and aware. Um, and financially astute and aware. Um, and financially astute and aware. Um, and after that, they would just give after that, they would just give after that, they would just give everything away. everything away. everything away. So they made this decision and every So they made this decision and every So they made this decision and every year they just when his job would year they just when his job would year they just when his job would increase and he made a you know he did increase and he made a you know he did increase and he made a you know he did very well they just gave more away. So very well they just gave more away. So very well they just gave more away. So rather than get the new this, the new rather than get the new this, the new rather than get the new this, the new that, the new whatever, which is what that, the new whatever, which is what that, the new whatever, which is what we're all tempted to do. Oh, now I have we're all tempted to do. Oh, now I have we're all tempted to do. Oh, now I have this. Let's add this on. Let's do this. this. Let's add this on. Let's do this. this. Let's add this on. Let's do this. Let's put they just chose to give it Let's put they just chose to give it Let's put they just chose to give it away. And away. And away. And >> what I will say is even yesterday, I >> what I will say is even yesterday, I >> what I will say is even yesterday, I mean, she's been with the Lord now. I mean, she's been with the Lord now. I mean, she's been with the Lord now. I can't remember even how many years ago can't remember even how many years ago can't remember even how many years ago she died. I'm still thinking about it. she died. I'm still thinking about it. she died. I'm still thinking about it. You know, they were an older couple in You know, they were an older couple in You know, they were an older couple in the church and they would teach on the church and they would teach on the church and they would teach on financial, they would do crown, you financial, they would do crown, you financial, they would do crown, you know, stuff. They would teach a lot of know, stuff. They would teach a lot of know, stuff. They would teach a lot of financial resources things and um but financial resources things and um but financial resources things and um but learning from the generosity of others learning from the generosity of others learning from the generosity of others and and really um being a witness in and and really um being a witness in and and really um being a witness in that of oh wow, my life is not the sum that of oh wow, my life is not the sum that of oh wow, my life is not the sum of my possessions, but maybe maybe I of my possessions, but maybe maybe I of my possessions, but maybe maybe I want to be known as the G biggest giver.

want to be known as the G biggest giver. want to be known as the G biggest giver. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Rather than the one who had the right >> Rather than the one who had the right >> Rather than the one who had the right curtains hanging in my living room, you curtains hanging in my living room, you curtains hanging in my living room, you know, I mean, honestly, like, but Oh, know, I mean, honestly, like, but Oh, know, I mean, honestly, like, but Oh, no. no. no. >> And I don't know where they were giving, >> And I don't know where they were giving, >> And I don't know where they were giving, >> you know, like I just know they were >> you know, like I just know they were >> you know, like I just know they were choosing they chose a lifestyle. That choosing they chose a lifestyle. That choosing they chose a lifestyle. That was the lifestyle they chose. I love was the lifestyle they chose. I love was the lifestyle they chose. I love that. I'm I'm still kind of stuck on that. I'm I'm still kind of stuck on that. I'm I'm still kind of stuck on Jen's thought of like inviting people Jen's thought of like inviting people Jen's thought of like inviting people in. So, I just um like I in. So, I just um like I in. So, I just um like I um just made the decision and purchased um just made the decision and purchased um just made the decision and purchased a new car because uh my other car was a new car because uh my other car was a new car because uh my other car was paid off. We had decided to do payments paid off. We had decided to do payments paid off. We had decided to do payments and so I did that and then I was like, and so I did that and then I was like, and so I did that and then I was like, well, I can just just start, you know, well, I can just just start, you know, well, I can just just start, you know, it won't be any different if I get a new it won't be any different if I get a new it won't be any different if I get a new car and just kind of continue the car and just kind of continue the car and just kind of continue the payments. And I'm like, what if I had payments. And I'm like, what if I had payments. And I'm like, what if I had invited somebody in and kind of laid out invited somebody in and kind of laid out invited somebody in and kind of laid out our financials and say Melissa said, you our financials and say Melissa said, you our financials and say Melissa said, you know, Courtney, what if you deferred know, Courtney, what if you deferred know, Courtney, what if you deferred that for a year and those payments went that for a year and those payments went that for a year and those payments went towards something else and then you got towards something else and then you got towards something else and then you got the new car? you know, like that is just the new car? you know, like that is just the new car? you know, like that is just so I mean, I'm just like I'm still kind so I mean, I'm just like I'm still kind so I mean, I'm just like I'm still kind of reeling through all the ramifications of reeling through all the ramifications of reeling through all the ramifications of what that could actually mean to be of what that could actually mean to be of what that could actually mean to be having conversations about how we can be having conversations about how we can be having conversations about how we can be more generous in the context of actually more generous in the context of actually more generous in the context of actually knowing each other and like saying this knowing each other and like saying this knowing each other and like saying this is something you could do and like is something you could do and like is something you could do and like speaking into that because like Melissa speaking into that because like Melissa speaking into that because like Melissa and I I mean like we'll talk about like and I I mean like we'll talk about like and I I mean like we'll talk about like you said how we go to the gym or what we you said how we go to the gym or what we you said how we go to the gym or what we want to lose or what we want to you know want to lose or what we want to you know want to lose or what we want to you know or the new clothes we're going to like or the new clothes we're going to like or the new clothes we're going to like we talk about those things But are we we talk about those things But are we we talk about those things But are we having those kind of conversations on having those kind of conversations on having those kind of conversations on like how could where are help me see

like how could where are help me see like how could where are help me see help me look at this and see places that help me look at this and see places that help me look at this and see places that I could be generous. That's really wow. I could be generous. That's really wow. I could be generous. That's really wow. >> Yeah. I never thought about I I >> Yeah. I never thought about I I >> Yeah. I never thought about I I shouldn't have brought it up. [laughter] shouldn't have brought it up. [laughter] shouldn't have brought it up. [laughter] >> Um but here's like everything though. We >> Um but here's like everything though. We >> Um but here's like everything though. We always want the other line. Yeah. always want the other line. Yeah. always want the other line. Yeah. >> We don't want the line to be held. It's >> We don't want the line to be held. It's >> We don't want the line to be held. It's kind of like when you're dating, you kind of like when you're dating, you kind of like when you're dating, you want the line to be want the line to be want the line to be >> how much can I get away with? How pure >> how much can I get away with? How pure >> how much can I get away with? How pure can we be? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't that. can we be? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't that. can we be? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't that. It was what can we go up to and it be It was what can we go up to and it be It was what can we go up to and it be okay. So, this gets into everything, okay. So, this gets into everything, okay. So, this gets into everything, right? Like, so all these issues on right? Like, so all these issues on right? Like, so all these issues on what's it okay to spend money on, like what's it okay to spend money on, like what's it okay to spend money on, like whether it's a facial cream or Botox, whether it's a facial cream or Botox, whether it's a facial cream or Botox, you know, whatever it might be. I said you know, whatever it might be. I said you know, whatever it might be. I said the B- word. I'm going to get in the B- word. I'm going to get in the B- word. I'm going to get in trouble. Um, [laughter] we're not trouble. Um, [laughter] we're not trouble. Um, [laughter] we're not allowed to talk about Botox, but like allowed to talk about Botox, but like allowed to talk about Botox, but like all you know, when you when you But it's all you know, when you when you But it's all you know, when you when you But it's different to say, well, could that money different to say, well, could that money different to say, well, could that money be used for something else? which is be used for something else? which is be used for something else? which is really nitty-gritty in my soul. And it's really nitty-gritty in my soul. And it's really nitty-gritty in my soul. And it's like, oh, let's not stop confronting me like, oh, let's not stop confronting me like, oh, let's not stop confronting me with the Holy One of Israel. Uh-uh.

with the Holy One of Israel. Uh-uh. with the Holy One of Israel. Uh-uh. Like, don't don't get in my business, Like, don't don't get in my business, Like, don't don't get in my business, you know? Whereas we need people to get you know? Whereas we need people to get you know? Whereas we need people to get in our business. in our business. in our business. >> Yeah, we do. And and here's the thing >> Yeah, we do. And and here's the thing >> Yeah, we do. And and here's the thing for those who are listening and just to for those who are listening and just to for those who are listening and just to remind us like the point isn't guilt and remind us like the point isn't guilt and remind us like the point isn't guilt and self-loathing and the point isn't self-loathing and the point isn't self-loathing and the point isn't feeling bad and making up for it. like, feeling bad and making up for it. like, feeling bad and making up for it. like, well, we're, you know, globally well, we're, you know, globally well, we're, you know, globally speaking, we're pretty rich, so how are speaking, we're pretty rich, so how are speaking, we're pretty rich, so how are we going to sort of pay penance for we going to sort of pay penance for we going to sort of pay penance for that? That that is not the point. I love that? That that is not the point. I love that? That that is not the point. I love Jesus's heart after the the parable of Jesus's heart after the the parable of Jesus's heart after the the parable of the rich fool. Jesus is so tender and he the rich fool. Jesus is so tender and he the rich fool. Jesus is so tender and he says, "Don't worry. says, "Don't worry. says, "Don't worry. My father knows what you need before you My father knows what you need before you My father knows what you need before you even ask him." He he calls him he calls even ask him." He he calls him he calls even ask him." He he calls him he calls the people listening his little flock. the people listening his little flock. the people listening his little flock. And it's like the most compassionate And it's like the most compassionate And it's like the most compassionate language. And so what I want us to language. And so what I want us to language. And so what I want us to remember is our feeling of insecurity remember is our feeling of insecurity remember is our feeling of insecurity and I need to protect myself. I need to and I need to protect myself. I need to and I need to protect myself. I need to hoard my stuff. I've got to plan for the hoard my stuff. I've got to plan for the hoard my stuff. I've got to plan for the future cuz my life is fragile. The Lord future cuz my life is fragile. The Lord future cuz my life is fragile. The Lord sees that and he looks on us with sees that and he looks on us with sees that and he looks on us with compassion and says, "My father's going compassion and says, "My father's going compassion and says, "My father's going to provide for you." But here's what's to provide for you." But here's what's to provide for you." But here's what's wisdom.

wisdom. wisdom. Wisdom is storing up treasure in heaven. Wisdom is storing up treasure in heaven. Wisdom is storing up treasure in heaven. It is foolish for you to store it here It is foolish for you to store it here It is foolish for you to store it here and now. And so Christ's heart in this and now. And so Christ's heart in this and now. And so Christ's heart in this is that we would not settle for the is that we would not settle for the is that we would not settle for the lesser gifts, the lesser life, the lesser gifts, the lesser life, the lesser gifts, the lesser life, the temporary. He's like, "No, go harder, go temporary. He's like, "No, go harder, go temporary. He's like, "No, go harder, go further, go beyond the here and now." further, go beyond the here and now." further, go beyond the here and now." And we need the word of God, the spirit And we need the word of God, the spirit And we need the word of God, the spirit of God, and the people of God to help us of God, and the people of God to help us of God, and the people of God to help us do that. And I think, you know, in our do that. And I think, you know, in our do that. And I think, you know, in our in our American context where our faith in our American context where our faith in our American context where our faith is not just personal, but it tends to be is not just personal, but it tends to be is not just personal, but it tends to be very private, we really um shortcircuit very private, we really um shortcircuit very private, we really um shortcircuit ourselves here. We really cut ourselves ourselves here. We really cut ourselves ourselves here. We really cut ourselves off from actual joy and growth and off from actual joy and growth and off from actual joy and growth and sanctification and freedom, from sanctification and freedom, from sanctification and freedom, from materialism by not inviting our siblings materialism by not inviting our siblings materialism by not inviting our siblings in to really provoke us and to spur us in to really provoke us and to spur us in to really provoke us and to spur us towards a way of life that is living for towards a way of life that is living for towards a way of life that is living for heaven rather than for earth. I think heaven rather than for earth. I think heaven rather than for earth. I think that's so good. Um because and and I that's so good. Um because and and I that's so good. Um because and and I want us to talk a little bit about like want us to talk a little bit about like want us to talk a little bit about like how does heavenlymindedness how does heavenlymindedness how does heavenlymindedness change and totally transform this whole change and totally transform this whole change and totally transform this whole conversation because um one one analogy conversation because um one one analogy conversation because um one one analogy and it was really helpful for me. You've and it was really helpful for me. You've and it was really helpful for me. You've lived overseas, Jen, too. I lived lived overseas, Jen, too. I lived lived overseas, Jen, too. I lived overseas um when my husband was doing overseas um when my husband was doing overseas um when my husband was doing his PhD work and it was so great to live his PhD work and it was so great to live his PhD work and it was so great to live in a rented house because you just you in a rented house because you just you in a rented house because you just you learn a lot about what you don't need.

learn a lot about what you don't need. learn a lot about what you don't need. Um, you know, we I I moved to Scotland Um, you know, we I I moved to Scotland Um, you know, we I I moved to Scotland with four suitcases and I I remember with four suitcases and I I remember with four suitcases and I I remember thinking I always know now I can live thinking I always know now I can live thinking I always know now I can live with four suitcases and I could live with four suitcases and I could live with four suitcases and I could live with less even. But it was it was really with less even. But it was it was really with less even. But it was it was really helpful. And one image that would come helpful. And one image that would come helpful. And one image that would come to mind a lot um is the belief that this to mind a lot um is the belief that this to mind a lot um is the belief that this world's an airport and my home is world's an airport and my home is world's an airport and my home is heaven. And if I would view this world heaven. And if I would view this world heaven. And if I would view this world like that, like that, like that, >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> um, I would laugh a little bit more >> um, I would laugh a little bit more >> um, I would laugh a little bit more about my possessions and think about about my possessions and think about about my possessions and think about them very differently. Because if we saw them very differently. Because if we saw them very differently. Because if we saw someone in an airport unpacking in the someone in an airport unpacking in the someone in an airport unpacking in the middle of the airport their um, middle of the airport their um, middle of the airport their um, cappuccino maker and saying, "No, no, cappuccino maker and saying, "No, no, cappuccino maker and saying, "No, no, no. I I'm I'm going to I'm going to make no. I I'm I'm going to I'm going to make no. I I'm I'm going to I'm going to make everything feel like home, and I've got everything feel like home, and I've got everything feel like home, and I've got my bed here and my other suitcase. I'm my bed here and my other suitcase. I'm my bed here and my other suitcase. I'm going to pull that out in a minute." going to pull that out in a minute." going to pull that out in a minute." We'd be like, "What are you doing? We'd be like, "What are you doing? We'd be like, "What are you doing? You're in the airport. you're trying to You're in the airport. you're trying to You're in the airport. you're trying to get home. That's where you have your get home. That's where you have your get home. That's where you have your little cappuccino maker and your nice little cappuccino maker and your nice little cappuccino maker and your nice bed and all that stuff. You know, we bed and all that stuff. You know, we bed and all that stuff. You know, we would laugh together and we'd be like, would laugh together and we'd be like, would laugh together and we'd be like, "That's foolish to bring all this stuff "That's foolish to bring all this stuff "That's foolish to bring all this stuff with you and care so much about it in with you and care so much about it in with you and care so much about it in the airport." There's a whole place the airport." There's a whole place the airport." There's a whole place prepared for you where you're going to prepared for you where you're going to prepared for you where you're going to feel wonderful, you know, about being feel wonderful, you know, about being feel wonderful, you know, about being actually home. And I think though it actually home. And I think though it actually home. And I think though it it's our longing, our deep longing for it's our longing, our deep longing for it's our longing, our deep longing for home [laughter] home [laughter] home [laughter] >> that makes us think we can make these >> that makes us think we can make these >> that makes us think we can make these homes our homes. So how how can we fix homes our homes. So how how can we fix homes our homes. So how how can we fix our eyes on heavenly things? So it would our eyes on heavenly things? So it would our eyes on heavenly things? So it would remind mind us not that these are remind mind us not that these are remind mind us not that these are unimportant places. We we know that it's unimportant places. We we know that it's unimportant places. We we know that it's a little microcosm of of of what's

a little microcosm of of of what's a little microcosm of of of what's coming. That's it's a shadow, but how do coming. That's it's a shadow, but how do coming. That's it's a shadow, but how do we focus on the reality while we're we focus on the reality while we're we focus on the reality while we're living in the shadowlands? living in the shadowlands? living in the shadowlands? >> That's so good. And I'm I'm glad that >> That's so good. And I'm I'm glad that >> That's so good. And I'm I'm glad that you, you know, reminded us to say out you, you know, reminded us to say out you, you know, reminded us to say out loud that this life does matter and this loud that this life does matter and this loud that this life does matter and this place does matter. you know, the we're place does matter. you know, the we're place does matter. you know, the we're we're embodied souls and all of this we're embodied souls and all of this we're embodied souls and all of this does matter and it's good to cultivate. does matter and it's good to cultivate. does matter and it's good to cultivate. That's our calling. Um, I think one That's our calling. Um, I think one That's our calling. Um, I think one question that has been helpful for me in question that has been helpful for me in question that has been helpful for me in playing this out in my life has been playing this out in my life has been playing this out in my life has been just repeating to myself, what does it just repeating to myself, what does it just repeating to myself, what does it look like for me to love my neighbor as look like for me to love my neighbor as look like for me to love my neighbor as myself? If that's what I want, what how myself? If that's what I want, what how myself? If that's what I want, what how do I love my neighbor with that? You do I love my neighbor with that? You do I love my neighbor with that? You know, how can I extend that same desire know, how can I extend that same desire know, how can I extend that same desire to them? And so that's been very helpful to them? And so that's been very helpful to them? And so that's been very helpful in terms of giving to different places in terms of giving to different places in terms of giving to different places or different causes or suffering or the or different causes or suffering or the or different causes or suffering or the church whatever. But I think if we view church whatever. But I think if we view church whatever. But I think if we view others and say they deserve what I think others and say they deserve what I think others and say they deserve what I think I deserve, that can be very very I deserve, that can be very very I deserve, that can be very very helpful. Um you know we we are given helpful. Um you know we we are given helpful. Um you know we we are given those commands to love God and love those commands to love God and love those commands to love God and love others. So we've got to ask how can I do others. So we've got to ask how can I do others. So we've got to ask how can I do that with with the finances that I have that with with the finances that I have that with with the finances that I have right now? What would it look like to right now? What would it look like to right now? What would it look like to show God I love him and other people. I show God I love him and other people. I show God I love him and other people. I I love these other people, these image I love these other people, these image I love these other people, these image bears as well. How can I show love by bears as well. How can I show love by bears as well. How can I show love by leveraging all that I have for them? I leveraging all that I have for them? I leveraging all that I have for them? I love that. Asking the question or love that. Asking the question or love that. Asking the question or thinking the thought that other people thinking the thought that other people thinking the thought that other people deserve what I deserve. That kind of deserve what I deserve. That kind of deserve what I deserve. That kind of gets back to how Melissa, you were gets back to how Melissa, you were gets back to how Melissa, you were talking about the way you view like I talking about the way you view like I talking about the way you view like I deserve this. I've earned it. But deserve this. I've earned it. But deserve this. I've earned it. But thinking somebody else deserves it as thinking somebody else deserves it as thinking somebody else deserves it as much as I do. That's a really that's a much as I do. That's a really that's a much as I do. That's a really that's a that's a really healthy balance of

that's a really healthy balance of that's a really healthy balance of holding all kind of everything we've holding all kind of everything we've holding all kind of everything we've talked about in tension. Um that's I talked about in tension. Um that's I talked about in tension. Um that's I just find that really helpful. But I just find that really helpful. But I just find that really helpful. But I also think like the idea of having a a also think like the idea of having a a also think like the idea of having a a more robust more robust more robust understanding and knowledge of what is understanding and knowledge of what is understanding and knowledge of what is to come. I think most of us have such an to come. I think most of us have such an to come. I think most of us have such an anemic view of heaven and the new anemic view of heaven and the new anemic view of heaven and the new heavens and the new earth and what's to heavens and the new earth and what's to heavens and the new earth and what's to come in the next life and the shity of come in the next life and the shity of come in the next life and the shity of it like the the concreteness of it and it like the the concreteness of it and it like the the concreteness of it and so so [sighs] increasing your knowledge so so [sighs] increasing your knowledge so so [sighs] increasing your knowledge base so that you can long for this thing base so that you can long for this thing base so that you can long for this thing so that you know what it's like I mean I so that you know what it's like I mean I so that you know what it's like I mean I Randy Alcorn's book on heaven has got to Randy Alcorn's book on heaven has got to Randy Alcorn's book on heaven has got to be just be just be just >> lifeanging like lifech changing right >> lifeanging like lifech changing right >> lifeanging like lifech changing right and there have been some he has a and there have been some he has a and there have been some he has a truncated version if you look at it and truncated version if you look at it and truncated version if you look at it and it's just too big and there have been it's just too big and there have been it's just too big and there have been some others that have come out recently some others that have come out recently some others that have come out recently that um really take his work and um we that um really take his work and um we that um really take his work and um we can put some of those in the show notes. can put some of those in the show notes. can put some of those in the show notes. Um but it's it's so helpful to get Um but it's it's so helpful to get Um but it's it's so helpful to get excited about the beauty and the excited about the beauty and the excited about the beauty and the abundance and the glory of the life to abundance and the glory of the life to abundance and the glory of the life to come. And I do think that's what helps come. And I do think that's what helps come. And I do think that's what helps untether us. Like you were saying untether us. Like you were saying untether us. Like you were saying Melissa, it helps us realize, oh, this Melissa, it helps us realize, oh, this Melissa, it helps us realize, oh, this is just the airport. where I'm going is is just the airport. where I'm going is is just the airport. where I'm going is glorious and I can hardly wait to get glorious and I can hardly wait to get glorious and I can hardly wait to get there.

there. there. >> And if our resources can be used by the >> And if our resources can be used by the >> And if our resources can be used by the Lord to help more people get there, Lord to help more people get there, Lord to help more people get there, >> yeah, absolutely. >> yeah, absolutely. >> yeah, absolutely. >> You know what I'm saying? Like what an >> You know what I'm saying? Like what an >> You know what I'm saying? Like what an honor to get to be a part of that that honor to get to be a part of that that honor to get to be a part of that that invites us to use our resources to be a invites us to use our resources to be a invites us to use our resources to be a part of part of part of >> furnishing heaven. It's all him, >> furnishing heaven. It's all him, >> furnishing heaven. It's all him, >> but he allows us to play a role >> but he allows us to play a role >> but he allows us to play a role >> in that. What what a thing that we >> in that. What what a thing that we >> in that. What what a thing that we actually are allowed to store up actually are allowed to store up actually are allowed to store up treasure in heaven. treasure in heaven. treasure in heaven. >> So good >> So good >> So good >> because it's all his. But he somehow >> because it's all his. But he somehow >> because it's all his. But he somehow lets us use what's happening in this lets us use what's happening in this lets us use what's happening in this life to build things that will last. life to build things that will last. life to build things that will last. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, yeah. >> You know, yeah. >> You know, yeah. >> Yeah. He does not treat us as our sins >> Yeah. He does not treat us as our sins >> Yeah. He does not treat us as our sins deserve. So grateful. Well, Jen, thank deserve. So grateful. Well, Jen, thank deserve. So grateful. Well, Jen, thank you so much for joining us on the deep you so much for joining us on the deep you so much for joining us on the deep dish and talking about these things. I dish and talking about these things. I dish and talking about these things. I know Melissa and I both are saying, know Melissa and I both are saying, know Melissa and I both are saying, "Wow, truly convict." Like, it's not "Wow, truly convict." Like, it's not "Wow, truly convict." Like, it's not we're not just saying that. Like, we're not just saying that. Like, we're not just saying that. Like, there's been some conviction. There's there's been some conviction. There's there's been some conviction. There's been I've had a shift in the way that I been I've had a shift in the way that I been I've had a shift in the way that I think about some of these things and I'm think about some of these things and I'm think about some of these things and I'm going to once we get off of this um going to once we get off of this um going to once we get off of this um episode, I'm going to actually write episode, I'm going to actually write episode, I'm going to actually write some of them down and and keep them in some of them down and and keep them in some of them down and and keep them in my Bible to pray about them because I my Bible to pray about them because I my Bible to pray about them because I don't want this to just be like, "Oo, don't want this to just be like, "Oo, don't want this to just be like, "Oo, that was kind of convicting." And then that was kind of convicting." And then that was kind of convicting." And then and then move on. So, thank you for um and then move on. So, thank you for um and then move on. So, thank you for um bringing your wisdom and your bringing your wisdom and your bringing your wisdom and your thoughtfulness to this conversation. So thoughtfulness to this conversation. So thoughtfulness to this conversation. So our last question for you today is what our last question for you today is what our last question for you today is what is something that is not material that is something that is not material that is something that is not material that you love or that enriches your life?

you love or that enriches your life? you love or that enriches your life? >> Yes. Well, um I think this actually is >> Yes. Well, um I think this actually is >> Yes. Well, um I think this actually is probably points towards heaven as well. probably points towards heaven as well. probably points towards heaven as well. Um one of my favorite things to do is to Um one of my favorite things to do is to Um one of my favorite things to do is to sit on my back patio around the fire pit sit on my back patio around the fire pit sit on my back patio around the fire pit with the twinkle lights on and with my with the twinkle lights on and with my with the twinkle lights on and with my family, with my friends, with whoever, family, with my friends, with whoever, family, with my friends, with whoever, you know, just a sweet slow I tend to, you know, just a sweet slow I tend to, you know, just a sweet slow I tend to, you know, go hard. And so when I slow you know, go hard. And so when I slow you know, go hard. And so when I slow down and just enjoy um the beauty of the down and just enjoy um the beauty of the down and just enjoy um the beauty of the Colorado outdoors and the beauty of the Colorado outdoors and the beauty of the Colorado outdoors and the beauty of the people, maybe the beauty of some yummy people, maybe the beauty of some yummy people, maybe the beauty of some yummy food around that fire pit, um I don't food around that fire pit, um I don't food around that fire pit, um I don't know why I don't do that more often. know why I don't do that more often. know why I don't do that more often. It's a it's such a good gift. That's It's a it's such a good gift. That's It's a it's such a good gift. That's beautiful. Melissa and I definitely can beautiful. Melissa and I definitely can beautiful. Melissa and I definitely can both uh resonate with that. We really both uh resonate with that. We really both uh resonate with that. We really really enjoy the same thing. Well, really enjoy the same thing. Well, really enjoy the same thing. Well, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed friends, we hope that you have enjoyed friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the deep dish from the this episode of the deep dish from the this episode of the deep dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you have found it Gospel Coalition. If you have found it Gospel Coalition. If you have found it helpful, please share it, like it, helpful, please share it, like it, helpful, please share it, like it, [music] uh comment. We'd love to have a [music] uh comment. We'd love to have a [music] uh comment. We'd love to have a conversation about it. And we will see conversation about it. And we will see conversation about it. And we will see you next time.