What We Learn from the Black Church About the Culture War (w/Justin Giboney) [Gospelbound - Ep. 175]

Jesus, if we if we want to remember, his Jesus, if we if we want to remember, his people were under an occupation and he people were under an occupation and he people were under an occupation and he still critiqued his own people and you still critiqued his own people and you still critiqued his own people and you know the religious establishment [music] know the religious establishment [music] know the religious establishment [music] and all that. These are this is what you and all that. These are this is what you and all that. These are this is what you have to do if you love the truth and if have to do if you love the truth and if have to do if you love the truth and if you don't if you love your narrative you don't if you love your narrative you don't if you love your narrative more than that then you don't do it. more than that then you don't do it. more than that then you don't do it. Those are the those are the options. Those are the those are the options. Those are the those are the options. [music] in Birmingham, Alabama, I often teach in Birmingham, Alabama, I often teach about the civil rights movement as the about the civil rights movement as the about the civil rights movement as the most effective faith-based movement for most effective faith-based movement for most effective faith-based movement for social change in American history. And social change in American history. And social change in American history. And we have a a bitter heritage here in we have a a bitter heritage here in we have a a bitter heritage here in Birmingham of violent segregation. But Birmingham of violent segregation. But Birmingham of violent segregation. But the same city produced the heroes of the the same city produced the heroes of the the same city produced the heroes of the struggle. The ordinary men and women and struggle. The ordinary men and women and struggle. The ordinary men and women and in this case especially children who in this case especially children who in this case especially children who stared down the police dogs and fire stared down the police dogs and fire stared down the police dogs and fire hoses in the March for Freedom. Well, hoses in the March for Freedom. Well, hoses in the March for Freedom. Well, Justin Gibney honors such heroes as Justin Gibney honors such heroes as Justin Gibney honors such heroes as Pastor Fred Shuddlesworth and commends Pastor Fred Shuddlesworth and commends Pastor Fred Shuddlesworth and commends their example for today in an their example for today in an their example for today in an informative and provocative book, Don't informative and provocative book, Don't informative and provocative book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around: How the Let Nobody Turn You Around: How the Let Nobody Turn You Around: How the Black Church's Public Witness Leads Us Black Church's Public Witness Leads Us Black Church's Public Witness Leads Us Out of the Culture War, a new book Out of the Culture War, a new book Out of the Culture War, a new book published by IVP. Justin is the published by IVP. Justin is the published by IVP. Justin is the co-founder and president of the Ant co-founder and president of the Ant co-founder and president of the Ant Campaign. And the endorsement of this Campaign. And the endorsement of this Campaign. And the endorsement of this book by Bob Roberts calls Justin a book by Bob Roberts calls Justin a book by Bob Roberts calls Justin a strange mix of Tim Keller and Martin strange mix of Tim Keller and Martin strange mix of Tim Keller and Martin Luther King Jr. wrapped up in his own Luther King Jr. wrapped up in his own Luther King Jr. wrapped up in his own personality and voice. I like that. It's

personality and voice. I like that. It's personality and voice. I like that. It's high praise. And let's learn more now on high praise. And let's learn more now on high praise. And let's learn more now on Gospel Bound. Justin, thanks for joining Gospel Bound. Justin, thanks for joining Gospel Bound. Justin, thanks for joining me. me. me. >> Colin, it's always a pleasure. Thanks >> Colin, it's always a pleasure. Thanks >> Colin, it's always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. for having me. for having me. >> These interviews typically start with a >> These interviews typically start with a >> These interviews typically start with a question about why did you read the question about why did you read the question about why did you read the book? But I thought that was not really book? But I thought that was not really book? But I thought that was not really sufficient. This is a book that really sufficient. This is a book that really sufficient. This is a book that really comes with a burden. So Justin, could comes with a burden. So Justin, could comes with a burden. So Justin, could you tell us what was the burden behind you tell us what was the burden behind you tell us what was the burden behind writing this book? writing this book? writing this book? >> I like how you put that. Uh the burden >> I like how you put that. Uh the burden >> I like how you put that. Uh the burden was I think probably twofold. Uh number was I think probably twofold. Uh number was I think probably twofold. Uh number one one one uh it's a very personal book. So as you uh it's a very personal book. So as you uh it's a very personal book. So as you as you know I write the book uh starting as you know I write the book uh starting as you know I write the book uh starting with the story of my maternal with the story of my maternal with the story of my maternal grandmother uh also her favorite uh grandmother uh also her favorite uh grandmother uh also her favorite uh gospel artist who is Melia Jackson. And gospel artist who is Melia Jackson. And gospel artist who is Melia Jackson. And so I wanted to in many ways so I wanted to in many ways so I wanted to in many ways um help people see the civil rights um help people see the civil rights um help people see the civil rights generation for who they were. I think generation for who they were. I think generation for who they were. I think the civil rights movement in general has the civil rights movement in general has the civil rights movement in general has kind of been co-opted uh sometimes by kind of been co-opted uh sometimes by kind of been co-opted uh sometimes by the right to create a kind of the right to create a kind of the right to create a kind of color-blind narrative many times by uh color-blind narrative many times by uh color-blind narrative many times by uh the left to launder some of their issues the left to launder some of their issues the left to launder some of their issues into the civil rights spirit. And I into the civil rights spirit. And I into the civil rights spirit. And I wanted to clear the record but also be wanted to clear the record but also be wanted to clear the record but also be very clear that this was an orthodox very clear that this was an orthodox very clear that this was an orthodox movement. This was a movement based on movement. This was a movement based on movement. This was a movement based on the authority of scripture and the the authority of scripture and the the authority of scripture and the promises uh of God.

promises uh of God. promises uh of God. >> Yeah. something I've learned a lot from >> Yeah. something I've learned a lot from >> Yeah. something I've learned a lot from you about and talked with you a lot you about and talked with you a lot you about and talked with you a lot about over the years and I really about over the years and I really about over the years and I really appreciate you drawing it out here. Um I appreciate you drawing it out here. Um I appreciate you drawing it out here. Um I would love to hear more about that and would love to hear more about that and would love to hear more about that and of course it's very clear in the book of course it's very clear in the book of course it's very clear in the book but I think it's one of the most but I think it's one of the most but I think it's one of the most compelling um aspects of the book. Tell compelling um aspects of the book. Tell compelling um aspects of the book. Tell us more about your own family background us more about your own family background us more about your own family background and some of that inspiration. and some of that inspiration. and some of that inspiration. >> Yeah. So um my m my mother is a >> Yeah. So um my m my mother is a >> Yeah. So um my m my mother is a preachers's kid. Her father was a civil preachers's kid. Her father was a civil preachers's kid. Her father was a civil rights era preacher in a small rights era preacher in a small rights era preacher in a small Pentecostal denomination. Um, and really Pentecostal denomination. Um, and really Pentecostal denomination. Um, and really I was raised in that um, that black I was raised in that um, that black I was raised in that um, that black church um, tradition. Um, and so it church um, tradition. Um, and so it church um, tradition. Um, and so it really had a profound impact just on, really had a profound impact just on, really had a profound impact just on, you know, on how I saw politics, how I you know, on how I saw politics, how I you know, on how I saw politics, how I saw culture and and things of that saw culture and and things of that saw culture and and things of that nature. And so, you know, when I go on nature. And so, you know, when I go on nature. And so, you know, when I go on to law school and, you know, I end up to law school and, you know, I end up to law school and, you know, I end up going to Vanderbilt University, which my going to Vanderbilt University, which my going to Vanderbilt University, which my grandfather was from Tennessee, but he grandfather was from Tennessee, but he grandfather was from Tennessee, but he could have never, you know, he because could have never, you know, he because could have never, you know, he because of segregation, he couldn't have gone of segregation, he couldn't have gone of segregation, he couldn't have gone there. it just kind of colors my outlook there. it just kind of colors my outlook there. it just kind of colors my outlook on different things. But at the same on different things. But at the same on different things. But at the same time, being from Denver, Colorado, even time, being from Denver, Colorado, even time, being from Denver, Colorado, even going to some uh churches, some other going to some uh churches, some other going to some uh churches, some other denominations, I also was able to have a denominations, I also was able to have a denominations, I also was able to have a diverse diverse interactions with a lot diverse diverse interactions with a lot diverse diverse interactions with a lot of different kinds of people and I think of different kinds of people and I think of different kinds of people and I think uh that was helpful as well. we hosted uh that was helpful as well. we hosted uh that was helpful as well. we hosted you for a Keller Center event and I was you for a Keller Center event and I was you for a Keller Center event and I was so excited when you talked um at length so excited when you talked um at length so excited when you talked um at length about Fred Shuttlesworth and I fly out about Fred Shuttlesworth and I fly out about Fred Shuttlesworth and I fly out of Shuttlesworth Airport here in of Shuttlesworth Airport here in of Shuttlesworth Airport here in Birmingham, Alabama, but I think not Birmingham, Alabama, but I think not Birmingham, Alabama, but I think not many people still know about him.

many people still know about him. many people still know about him. >> Uh I think he remains largely >> Uh I think he remains largely >> Uh I think he remains largely overlooked. No, no doubt he's in the overlooked. No, no doubt he's in the overlooked. No, no doubt he's in the shadow of King um which uh Fred would shadow of King um which uh Fred would shadow of King um which uh Fred would not have appreciated. something he not have appreciated. something he not have appreciated. something he experienced in his own life and often experienced in his own life and often experienced in his own life and often struggled with. But what is it that struggled with. But what is it that struggled with. But what is it that draws you to write and to reflect so draws you to write and to reflect so draws you to write and to reflect so much on the ministry of Shuddlesworth? much on the ministry of Shuddlesworth? much on the ministry of Shuddlesworth? >> Uh Shuddlesworth was was different. You >> Uh Shuddlesworth was was different. You >> Uh Shuddlesworth was was different. You know, for one, he's he's a man that I know, for one, he's he's a man that I know, for one, he's he's a man that I think Dr. King called the bravest or think Dr. King called the bravest or think Dr. King called the bravest or most courageous man in the civil rights most courageous man in the civil rights most courageous man in the civil rights movement. I mean, you talk about praise, movement. I mean, you talk about praise, movement. I mean, you talk about praise, that that's high praise from from that that's high praise from from that that's high praise from from someone like that. The other thing that someone like that. The other thing that someone like that. The other thing that really interested in me in Shuddlesworth really interested in me in Shuddlesworth really interested in me in Shuddlesworth is he calls himself is he calls himself is he calls himself um a biblicist and an actionist. And um a biblicist and an actionist. And um a biblicist and an actionist. And when he's talking about being a when he's talking about being a when he's talking about being a biblicist, he's talking about believing biblicist, he's talking about believing biblicist, he's talking about believing in the authority of scripture, believing in the authority of scripture, believing in the authority of scripture, believing what the Bible has to say, not seeing what the Bible has to say, not seeing what the Bible has to say, not seeing the Bible as just kind of symbolic and the Bible as just kind of symbolic and the Bible as just kind of symbolic and cute to, you know, to give us a little cute to, you know, to give us a little cute to, you know, to give us a little bit of direction. No, I believe what bit of direction. No, I believe what bit of direction. No, I believe what Jesus said. I believe what the Old Jesus said. I believe what the Old Jesus said. I believe what the Old Testament says. All those things, right? Testament says. All those things, right? Testament says. All those things, right? So you see that orthodoxy he called it So you see that orthodoxy he called it So you see that orthodoxy he called it he called himself a biblicist but he's he called himself a biblicist but he's he called himself a biblicist but he's talking about orthodoxy and as far as an talking about orthodoxy and as far as an talking about orthodoxy and as far as an actionist this is applying biblical actionist this is applying biblical actionist this is applying biblical principles in the public square. This is principles in the public square. This is principles in the public square. This is someone who you know his house uh and someone who you know his house uh and someone who you know his house uh and the church gets gets bombed. He somehow the church gets gets bombed. He somehow the church gets gets bombed. He somehow survives gets up the next day and goes survives gets up the next day and goes survives gets up the next day and goes forward with a bus boycott. Right? you forward with a bus boycott. Right? you forward with a bus boycott. Right? you know, that's that was the kind of the know, that's that was the kind of the know, that's that was the kind of the terrorism of uh segregationists was to terrorism of uh segregationists was to terrorism of uh segregationists was to try to change his calculus to say, you try to change his calculus to say, you try to change his calculus to say, you know what, this might not be worth it if know what, this might not be worth it if know what, this might not be worth it if they're going to bomb my house. And he they're going to bomb my house. And he they're going to bomb my house. And he refused to change that calculus. He he

refused to change that calculus. He he refused to change that calculus. He he knew how important it was to move knew how important it was to move knew how important it was to move forward and not be um pushed, you know, forward and not be um pushed, you know, forward and not be um pushed, you know, turned around by fear. turned around by fear. turned around by fear. >> Do you have a favorite Shuttlesworth >> Do you have a favorite Shuttlesworth >> Do you have a favorite Shuttlesworth story? I mean, an incredibly colorful story? I mean, an incredibly colorful story? I mean, an incredibly colorful character. character. character. >> Yeah, I mean, that's one of them, you >> Yeah, I mean, that's one of them, you >> Yeah, I mean, that's one of them, you know, but there's another one where he know, but there's another one where he know, but there's another one where he gets beaten again. He's trying to gets beaten again. He's trying to gets beaten again. He's trying to desegregate the schools, gets beaten, is desegregate the schools, gets beaten, is desegregate the schools, gets beaten, is in really bad shape. in really bad shape. in really bad shape. >> Philips High School in the ' 50s. Yeah. >> Philips High School in the ' 50s. Yeah. >> Philips High School in the ' 50s. Yeah. >> Yeah. And his, you know, his >> Yeah. And his, you know, his >> Yeah. And his, you know, his congregation and the a lot of the folks congregation and the a lot of the folks congregation and the a lot of the folks in the area wanted to riot and wanted to in the area wanted to riot and wanted to in the area wanted to riot and wanted to really, you know, shake some things up really, you know, shake some things up really, you know, shake some things up in a more violent way. And he comes in in a more violent way. And he comes in in a more violent way. And he comes in and says, "That's not what we're going and says, "That's not what we're going and says, "That's not what we're going to do." Uh, he refuses to do what we see to do." Uh, he refuses to do what we see to do." Uh, he refuses to do what we see a lot of people doing today, keep people a lot of people doing today, keep people a lot of people doing today, keep people in rage, but rather to inspire him. me. in rage, but rather to inspire him. me. in rage, but rather to inspire him. me. So, so if I'm not going to resort to So, so if I'm not going to resort to So, so if I'm not going to resort to that and I'm the one who got beat up, that and I'm the one who got beat up, that and I'm the one who got beat up, then certainly you shouldn't resort to then certainly you shouldn't resort to then certainly you shouldn't resort to that because it was outside of the ethic that because it was outside of the ethic that because it was outside of the ethic uh of the movement. Describe some of the uh of the movement. Describe some of the uh of the movement. Describe some of the differences between Shuddlesworth and differences between Shuddlesworth and differences between Shuddlesworth and and King. There's some pretty clear and King. There's some pretty clear and King. There's some pretty clear overlaps between between them and we overlaps between between them and we overlaps between between them and we have the famous photo of them with Ralph have the famous photo of them with Ralph have the famous photo of them with Ralph Abernathy in the working man shirts um Abernathy in the working man shirts um Abernathy in the working man shirts um during the Birmingham marches. But during the Birmingham marches. But during the Birmingham marches. But different congregations, different congregations, different congregations, different different uh class different different uh class different different uh class backgrounds. You describe some of the backgrounds. You describe some of the backgrounds. You describe some of the more some of the some of the differences more some of the some of the differences more some of the some of the differences between Shuddlesworth and King.

between Shuddlesworth and King. between Shuddlesworth and King. >> Yeah, man. I think they had a difference >> Yeah, man. I think they had a difference >> Yeah, man. I think they had a difference in just general disposition. Uh uh in just general disposition. Uh uh in just general disposition. Uh uh Shuddlesworth was more of a of a Shuddlesworth was more of a of a Shuddlesworth was more of a of a fighter. He was he was on the ground. He fighter. He was he was on the ground. He fighter. He was he was on the ground. He wasn't the kind of uh educated, polished wasn't the kind of uh educated, polished wasn't the kind of uh educated, polished person that you might see in, you know, person that you might see in, you know, person that you might see in, you know, that you might see in King. Uh he took a that you might see in King. Uh he took a that you might see in King. Uh he took a very different perspective and wanted to very different perspective and wanted to very different perspective and wanted to take it to people. you know, same ethic take it to people. you know, same ethic take it to people. you know, same ethic in general, but wasn't as much on the in general, but wasn't as much on the in general, but wasn't as much on the theory and all those things, but really theory and all those things, but really theory and all those things, but really on the ground and and still a good on the ground and and still a good on the ground and and still a good strategist just in a in a very different strategist just in a in a very different strategist just in a in a very different way. So, you just see two different way. So, you just see two different way. So, you just see two different perspectives. And I would say that the perspectives. And I would say that the perspectives. And I would say that the movement needed both. Um uh but you movement needed both. Um uh but you movement needed both. Um uh but you would I would I would think in certain would I would I would think in certain would I would I would think in certain ways ways ways Shuddlesworth might have been a better Shuddlesworth might have been a better Shuddlesworth might have been a better representative of of the actual people representative of of the actual people representative of of the actual people in the like not the leadership but the in the like not the leadership but the in the like not the leadership but the people that were that made up you know people that were that made up you know people that were that made up you know the bulk of the movement. He just the bulk of the movement. He just the bulk of the movement. He just reflected from class and all those reflected from class and all those reflected from class and all those things. He was more of a reflection of things. He was more of a reflection of things. He was more of a reflection of that. Yeah. that. Yeah. that. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I don't know what your >> Yeah. I I don't know what your >> Yeah. I I don't know what your experience is like, Justin, in in experience is like, Justin, in in experience is like, Justin, in in Atlanta, uh, living there or other Atlanta, uh, living there or other Atlanta, uh, living there or other places that you visit, but certainly in places that you visit, but certainly in places that you visit, but certainly in Birmingham, I'm I'm constantly Birmingham, I'm I'm constantly Birmingham, I'm I'm constantly straddling these two experiences. One is straddling these two experiences. One is straddling these two experiences. One is it's clearly just like you mentioned it's clearly just like you mentioned it's clearly just like you mentioned about Vanderbilt. It's clearly a very about Vanderbilt. It's clearly a very about Vanderbilt. It's clearly a very different place than it was before.

different place than it was before. different place than it was before. Clearly a very different place. And Clearly a very different place. And Clearly a very different place. And Shuddlesworth, King Abernathy, and Shuddlesworth, King Abernathy, and Shuddlesworth, King Abernathy, and others um deserve more of that credit others um deserve more of that credit others um deserve more of that credit than anybody else. I mean certainly than anybody else. I mean certainly than anybody else. I mean certainly another similarity between Shuddlesworth another similarity between Shuddlesworth another similarity between Shuddlesworth and King would just be their sheer and King would just be their sheer and King would just be their sheer courage. Um just just sheer courage in courage. Um just just sheer courage in courage. Um just just sheer courage in the face of as you said that that that the face of as you said that that that the face of as you said that that that terrorism uh back in the 50s and 60s. Um terrorism uh back in the 50s and 60s. Um terrorism uh back in the 50s and 60s. Um but uh at the same time what I and I but uh at the same time what I and I but uh at the same time what I and I always want to appreciate the always want to appreciate the always want to appreciate the differences of the changes at the same differences of the changes at the same differences of the changes at the same time it feels like I'm constantly also time it feels like I'm constantly also time it feels like I'm constantly also thinking why haven't we made more thinking why haven't we made more thinking why haven't we made more progress um why is it is it more visible progress um why is it is it more visible progress um why is it is it more visible why why isn't it more spiritual since why why isn't it more spiritual since why why isn't it more spiritual since the days of of shuttlesworth and like I the days of of shuttlesworth and like I the days of of shuttlesworth and like I said I don't want to be ungrateful for said I don't want to be ungrateful for said I don't want to be ungrateful for that but I just keep reflecting on why that but I just keep reflecting on why that but I just keep reflecting on why why haven't we come as far as as we why haven't we come as far as as we why haven't we come as far as as we think that we should think that we should think that we should >> you have an answer for that question? >> you have an answer for that question? >> you have an answer for that question? >> Well, yeah. I think that's part of the >> Well, yeah. I think that's part of the >> Well, yeah. I think that's part of the human brokenness. You know, we would human brokenness. You know, we would human brokenness. You know, we would like to think that um our kind of moral like to think that um our kind of moral like to think that um our kind of moral knowledge and how we grow in becoming knowledge and how we grow in becoming knowledge and how we grow in becoming better is is like technology, right? So better is is like technology, right? So better is is like technology, right? So once we invent the wheel, once we have a once we invent the wheel, once we have a once we invent the wheel, once we have a techn technological advance, we always techn technological advance, we always techn technological advance, we always hold on to it. But that's not hold on to it. But that's not hold on to it. But that's not necessarily true in society. Uh we're necessarily true in society. Uh we're necessarily true in society. Uh we're not always the uh moral superiors to not always the uh moral superiors to not always the uh moral superiors to those who came before us. I think we and those who came before us. I think we and those who came before us. I think we and that's another one of the reasons that I that's another one of the reasons that I that's another one of the reasons that I wrote the book is we have lost some of wrote the book is we have lost some of wrote the book is we have lost some of the primary lessons and principles that the primary lessons and principles that the primary lessons and principles that the civil rights movement showed not the civil rights movement showed not the civil rights movement showed not just America but showed the world. Uh we

just America but showed the world. Uh we just America but showed the world. Uh we just haven't held on to those things. just haven't held on to those things. just haven't held on to those things. It's almost like when Josiah has to go It's almost like when Josiah has to go It's almost like when Josiah has to go back and he has to get the word and say, back and he has to get the word and say, back and he has to get the word and say, "Hey, remember, we have to remember the "Hey, remember, we have to remember the "Hey, remember, we have to remember the word." That happens sometimes. And word." That happens sometimes. And word." That happens sometimes. And that's one of my major push backs that's one of my major push backs that's one of my major push backs against the thought of kind of against the thought of kind of against the thought of kind of progressivism and us always progressing progressivism and us always progressing progressivism and us always progressing towards some type of moral perfection. towards some type of moral perfection. towards some type of moral perfection. That's not that's ahistorical. And it, That's not that's ahistorical. And it, That's not that's ahistorical. And it, you know, there's really not a whole lot you know, there's really not a whole lot you know, there's really not a whole lot of uh proof that that's how things work. of uh proof that that's how things work. of uh proof that that's how things work. We have taken some steps back from the We have taken some steps back from the We have taken some steps back from the ethic that we were shown from the civil ethic that we were shown from the civil ethic that we were shown from the civil rights movement and our pride even the rights movement and our pride even the rights movement and our pride even the lessons that we somewhat learned our lessons that we somewhat learned our lessons that we somewhat learned our pride in many cases keep it keep keeps pride in many cases keep it keep keeps pride in many cases keep it keep keeps us from actually applying it in ways us from actually applying it in ways us from actually applying it in ways that we should. I think one of the that we should. I think one of the that we should. I think one of the biggest challenges I face Justin is that biggest challenges I face Justin is that biggest challenges I face Justin is that people think history is inevitable. They people think history is inevitable. They people think history is inevitable. They think that it had to be the way that it think that it had to be the way that it think that it had to be the way that it played out. And it helps them to not played out. And it helps them to not played out. And it helps them to not understand the courage and uniqueness understand the courage and uniqueness understand the courage and uniqueness and improbability of what happened in and improbability of what happened in and improbability of what happened in the civil rights movement. There was no the civil rights movement. There was no the civil rights movement. There was no group of people who thought this was group of people who thought this was group of people who thought this was going to happen. There was no sense that going to happen. There was no sense that going to happen. There was no sense that segregation was on its last legs. not segregation was on its last legs. not segregation was on its last legs. not not not in Birmingham, Alabama and I not not in Birmingham, Alabama and I not not in Birmingham, Alabama and I don't think any number of other places don't think any number of other places don't think any number of other places including Atlanta or Albany or or including Atlanta or Albany or or including Atlanta or Albany or or Montgomery or Selma or any number of Montgomery or Selma or any number of Montgomery or Selma or any number of these different these different places these different these different places these different these different places across the South and and beyond. Um and across the South and and beyond. Um and across the South and and beyond. Um and so but but when you do understand the so but but when you do understand the so but but when you do understand the contingency of history that it didn't

contingency of history that it didn't contingency of history that it didn't happen before um that there was a unique happen before um that there was a unique happen before um that there was a unique set of circumstances and people that the set of circumstances and people that the set of circumstances and people that the Lord raised up to very high cost. You Lord raised up to very high cost. You Lord raised up to very high cost. You see that pretty obviously whether it's see that pretty obviously whether it's see that pretty obviously whether it's 16th Street Baptist or King um in 16th Street Baptist or King um in 16th Street Baptist or King um in Memphis at at the highest cost which is Memphis at at the highest cost which is Memphis at at the highest cost which is why so so many people had not done it why so so many people had not done it why so so many people had not done it before because they knew what the cost before because they knew what the cost before because they knew what the cost was going to be. Um, so it was it was a was going to be. Um, so it was it was a was going to be. Um, so it was it was a unique set of circumstances. So it seems unique set of circumstances. So it seems unique set of circumstances. So it seems as though if if it didn't happen before as though if if it didn't happen before as though if if it didn't happen before and then suddenly the Lord raised up and then suddenly the Lord raised up and then suddenly the Lord raised up this generation in the 60s, then well, this generation in the 60s, then well, this generation in the 60s, then well, it's not inevitably going to continue it's not inevitably going to continue it's not inevitably going to continue then either. Is that part of your point then either. Is that part of your point then either. Is that part of your point as well? as well? as well? >> Yeah, that's part of the point. What >> Yeah, that's part of the point. What >> Yeah, that's part of the point. What what they did took not just an what they did took not just an what they did took not just an understanding of conventional wisdom and understanding of conventional wisdom and understanding of conventional wisdom and you know what was predicted or likely to you know what was predicted or likely to you know what was predicted or likely to happen. It took moral imagination. It happen. It took moral imagination. It happen. It took moral imagination. It was the ability to say, "Okay, here's was the ability to say, "Okay, here's was the ability to say, "Okay, here's what's happened historically. Here's what's happened historically. Here's what's happened historically. Here's what's going on now, and here's what's what's going on now, and here's what's what's going on now, and here's what's likely to be, but here's what God said likely to be, but here's what God said likely to be, but here's what God said should be." Right? Moral imagination is should be." Right? Moral imagination is should be." Right? Moral imagination is seeing what ought to be, not just what seeing what ought to be, not just what seeing what ought to be, not just what has been or or what's likely to be in has been or or what's likely to be in has been or or what's likely to be in the future. It's believing that if all the future. It's believing that if all the future. It's believing that if all if everyone is redeemable and if God is if everyone is redeemable and if God is if everyone is redeemable and if God is as powerful as the Bible says he is, as powerful as the Bible says he is, as powerful as the Bible says he is, there's nothing that we shouldn't be there's nothing that we shouldn't be there's nothing that we shouldn't be able to strive to do that's right. Uh able to strive to do that's right. Uh able to strive to do that's right. Uh and that's a major that's a major point and that's a major that's a major point and that's a major that's a major point because I think today I've been talking because I think today I've been talking because I think today I've been talking a lot about how Christians are giving up a lot about how Christians are giving up a lot about how Christians are giving up on each other because of you know every on each other because of you know every on each other because of you know every election when we have reconciliation election when we have reconciliation election when we have reconciliation efforts or whatever everybody goes

efforts or whatever everybody goes efforts or whatever everybody goes backwards right during the election for backwards right during the election for backwards right during the election for some reason or if there's some racial some reason or if there's some racial some reason or if there's some racial event everything goes backwards and so event everything goes backwards and so event everything goes backwards and so it's getting to the point to say well it's getting to the point to say well it's getting to the point to say well the other group hasn't changed now the other group hasn't changed now the other group hasn't changed now they're just not going to change at all they're just not going to change at all they're just not going to change at all and things aren't going to get that much and things aren't going to get that much and things aren't going to get that much better. Let's huddle in our little uh uh better. Let's huddle in our little uh uh better. Let's huddle in our little uh uh tribes. I think that's just a lack of tribes. I think that's just a lack of tribes. I think that's just a lack of moral imagination and really a lack of moral imagination and really a lack of moral imagination and really a lack of faith. Christians have to believe things faith. Christians have to believe things faith. Christians have to believe things can get better, that pe other people can can get better, that pe other people can can get better, that pe other people can do better, and we have to push for that do better, and we have to push for that do better, and we have to push for that to happen. Otherwise, we end up with to happen. Otherwise, we end up with to happen. Otherwise, we end up with this sort of cynicism that just accepts this sort of cynicism that just accepts this sort of cynicism that just accepts um the moment and all of its toxicity um the moment and all of its toxicity um the moment and all of its toxicity and just tries to get what we can get and just tries to get what we can get and just tries to get what we can get out of that toxic moment in instead of out of that toxic moment in instead of out of that toxic moment in instead of trying to change it. And in many ways, trying to change it. And in many ways, trying to change it. And in many ways, that's where we are right now. Yeah, it that's where we are right now. Yeah, it that's where we are right now. Yeah, it seems Justin that that cynicism is in seems Justin that that cynicism is in seems Justin that that cynicism is in some ways the default setting. Um, and some ways the default setting. Um, and some ways the default setting. Um, and it's very hard to it's very hard to it's very hard to it's very hard to it's very hard to it's very hard to break out of that and there's a lot of break out of that and there's a lot of break out of that and there's a lot of political and media incentive to political and media incentive to political and media incentive to perpetuate that cit cynicism. There's a perpetuate that cit cynicism. There's a perpetuate that cit cynicism. There's a lot of motivation to say no no no it it lot of motivation to say no no no it it lot of motivation to say no no no it it can't be different. It nothing can ever can't be different. It nothing can ever can't be different. It nothing can ever can ever change. But I I live every can ever change. But I I live every can ever change. But I I live every single day in a place where I have every single day in a place where I have every single day in a place where I have every reason to give thanks for people who had reason to give thanks for people who had reason to give thanks for people who had that moral imagination, who refused to that moral imagination, who refused to that moral imagination, who refused to look around and say, "It has to be this look around and say, "It has to be this look around and say, "It has to be this way." And and I and I I often reflect on way." And and I and I I often reflect on way." And and I and I I often reflect on how whether it was black or white, the how whether it was black or white, the how whether it was black or white, the vast majority of people did not have

vast majority of people did not have vast majority of people did not have that imagination in the white community that imagination in the white community that imagination in the white community because if you stepped out of line, because if you stepped out of line, because if you stepped out of line, massive repercussions um for your family massive repercussions um for your family massive repercussions um for your family to the point of probably needing to to to the point of probably needing to to to the point of probably needing to to move at at best lose your job, maybe move at at best lose your job, maybe move at at best lose your job, maybe even lose your life. And on the even lose your life. And on the even lose your life. And on the African-American side, same things. African-American side, same things. African-American side, same things. Losing your job, losing your life. Um it Losing your job, losing your life. Um it Losing your job, losing your life. Um it was in many ways easier to accept the was in many ways easier to accept the was in many ways easier to accept the status quo as terrible as it was because status quo as terrible as it was because status quo as terrible as it was because there was an option that was worse than there was an option that was worse than there was an option that was worse than that which was not having any income at that which was not having any income at that which was not having any income at all and and losing your life in the all and and losing your life in the all and and losing your life in the terrorism that we saw there with 16th terrorism that we saw there with 16th terrorism that we saw there with 16th Street Baptist and whatnot. Street Baptist and whatnot. Street Baptist and whatnot. that doesn't change anything that you that doesn't change anything that you that doesn't change anything that you need that moral imagination to go along need that moral imagination to go along need that moral imagination to go along with that courage or else um you're with that courage or else um you're with that courage or else um you're stuck in you're stuck in that loop which stuck in you're stuck in that loop which stuck in you're stuck in that loop which um places in in the south and we could um places in in the south and we could um places in in the south and we could apply this to other scenarios as well um apply this to other scenarios as well um apply this to other scenarios as well um had been stuck in for a very long time had been stuck in for a very long time had been stuck in for a very long time um and also it was a condition that was um and also it was a condition that was um and also it was a condition that was created not received in the sense that created not received in the sense that created not received in the sense that somebody had to have the moral somebody had to have the moral somebody had to have the moral imagination or immoral imagination to be imagination or immoral imagination to be imagination or immoral imagination to be able to create that situation in the able to create that situation in the able to create that situation in the first place. Hadn't always been that way first place. Hadn't always been that way first place. Hadn't always been that way >> either, either with slavery or >> either, either with slavery or >> either, either with slavery or segregation. Now, you you write in the segregation. Now, you you write in the segregation. Now, you you write in the book that the lack of color in the book that the lack of color in the book that the lack of color in the history of the culture war is glaring.

history of the culture war is glaring. history of the culture war is glaring. I'm just going to pose the question of I'm just going to pose the question of I'm just going to pose the question of your own book subtitle. Um, but explain your own book subtitle. Um, but explain your own book subtitle. Um, but explain what is the culture war and what is it what is the culture war and what is it what is the culture war and what is it that you see in the black church that that you see in the black church that that you see in the black church that can help lead us out. can help lead us out. can help lead us out. >> Yeah. So, according to James Davidson >> Yeah. So, according to James Davidson >> Yeah. So, according to James Davidson Hunter, uh, the culture war is a fight Hunter, uh, the culture war is a fight Hunter, uh, the culture war is a fight for the identity and the values of for the identity and the values of for the identity and the values of America. what will America represent? America. what will America represent? America. what will America represent? And this culture war, as uh also uh And this culture war, as uh also uh And this culture war, as uh also uh James Davidson Hunter would say, was a James Davidson Hunter would say, was a James Davidson Hunter would say, was a fight between white progressives and fight between white progressives and fight between white progressives and white conservatives. We see it kind of white conservatives. We see it kind of white conservatives. We see it kind of starting in the 20s and it just kind of starting in the 20s and it just kind of starting in the 20s and it just kind of grows throughout this time. You see it grows throughout this time. You see it grows throughout this time. You see it in the, you know, sexual revolution and in the, you know, sexual revolution and in the, you know, sexual revolution and then uh coming back with the moral then uh coming back with the moral then uh coming back with the moral majority, right? It's this back and majority, right? It's this back and majority, right? It's this back and forth between progressives and forth between progressives and forth between progressives and conservatives. Now, it's not to say conservatives. Now, it's not to say conservatives. Now, it's not to say there was no one of color somewhere in there was no one of color somewhere in there was no one of color somewhere in these conversations. they just weren't these conversations. they just weren't these conversations. they just weren't the principles, right? And so, while we the principles, right? And so, while we the principles, right? And so, while we were always subject to the outcomes and were always subject to the outcomes and were always subject to the outcomes and the consequences, we never really had a the consequences, we never really had a the consequences, we never really had a seat at the table to say, "Hey, this is seat at the table to say, "Hey, this is seat at the table to say, "Hey, this is how things should go." And it's also, I how things should go." And it's also, I how things should go." And it's also, I want to be very clear on two things, want to be very clear on two things, want to be very clear on two things, too. It's not that the culture issues too. It's not that the culture issues too. It's not that the culture issues aren't worth fighting for or debating aren't worth fighting for or debating aren't worth fighting for or debating over, right? They really are. I think over, right? They really are. I think over, right? They really are. I think that's important to know. And it's also that's important to know. And it's also that's important to know. And it's also not to say this is not, this book isn't not to say this is not, this book isn't not to say this is not, this book isn't just an exaltation of the black church.

just an exaltation of the black church. just an exaltation of the black church. It's actually a challenge too to today's It's actually a challenge too to today's It's actually a challenge too to today's black church, to today's white black church, to today's white black church, to today's white evangelicals and all that to say there's evangelicals and all that to say there's evangelicals and all that to say there's a higher standard that we can reach. So a higher standard that we can reach. So a higher standard that we can reach. So when we look at this culture war, we see when we look at this culture war, we see when we look at this culture war, we see it just become a kind of nasty rivalry. it just become a kind of nasty rivalry. it just become a kind of nasty rivalry. It's it's almost a series of It's it's almost a series of It's it's almost a series of overreaches. When the left gets in overreaches. When the left gets in overreaches. When the left gets in power, they push it too far. Throwing power, they push it too far. Throwing power, they push it too far. Throwing stuff in school that shouldn't be in stuff in school that shouldn't be in stuff in school that shouldn't be in schools. All this stuff, you know, schools. All this stuff, you know, schools. All this stuff, you know, pushing abortion to the furthest level. pushing abortion to the furthest level. pushing abortion to the furthest level. when the right gets in, you know, you when the right gets in, you know, you when the right gets in, you know, you you see a similar just overreach and you see a similar just overreach and you see a similar just overreach and excess and we should see this over and excess and we should see this over and excess and we should see this over and over just just this long cycle. There over just just this long cycle. There over just just this long cycle. There are a few things that I think the black are a few things that I think the black are a few things that I think the black church can speak into this. One of the church can speak into this. One of the church can speak into this. One of the most important is how we see ourselves most important is how we see ourselves most important is how we see ourselves and how we see our opposition. and how we see our opposition. and how we see our opposition. One of the things you see in One of the things you see in One of the things you see in um the civil rights generation, um the civil rights generation, um the civil rights generation, even as they're being oppressed, and you even as they're being oppressed, and you even as they're being oppressed, and you can hear it in the songs, you see it in can hear it in the songs, you see it in can hear it in the songs, you see it in their writing, they're always aware of their writing, they're always aware of their writing, they're always aware of not only the evil in their opponents, not only the evil in their opponents, not only the evil in their opponents, but the evil in them. They're always but the evil in them. They're always but the evil in them. They're always saying, you even hear it in lift every saying, you even hear it in lift every saying, you even hear it in lift every voice and sing, right? Lest we become, voice and sing, right? Lest we become, voice and sing, right? Lest we become, lest we forget where we met thee and lest we forget where we met thee and lest we forget where we met thee and become drunk with the wine of the world, become drunk with the wine of the world, become drunk with the wine of the world, we forget thee. Right?

we forget thee. Right? we forget thee. Right? This is basically saying, God, don't This is basically saying, God, don't This is basically saying, God, don't leave us to our own devices. We are leave us to our own devices. We are leave us to our own devices. We are wretches just like they are, but for wretches just like they are, but for wretches just like they are, but for you, we end up going down the wrong you, we end up going down the wrong you, we end up going down the wrong trail, too. What does that do? It gives trail, too. What does that do? It gives trail, too. What does that do? It gives you a certain level of humility to say, you a certain level of humility to say, you a certain level of humility to say, just because I have a good cause doesn't just because I have a good cause doesn't just because I have a good cause doesn't mean I'm going about my cause the right mean I'm going about my cause the right mean I'm going about my cause the right way. We tend to think that if we're way. We tend to think that if we're way. We tend to think that if we're fighting against the right people and we fighting against the right people and we fighting against the right people and we have a good cause, that's enough. have a good cause, that's enough. have a good cause, that's enough. History tells us over and over again, a History tells us over and over again, a History tells us over and over again, a cause is not enough. The spirit of the cause is not enough. The spirit of the cause is not enough. The spirit of the cause is just as important as the cause is just as important as the cause is just as important as the mission. And if we allow ourselves to be mission. And if we allow ourselves to be mission. And if we allow ourselves to be corrupted, if we respond in the way that corrupted, if we respond in the way that corrupted, if we respond in the way that the world responds, we become evil while the world responds, we become evil while the world responds, we become evil while fighting evil. You rarely hear anybody fighting evil. You rarely hear anybody fighting evil. You rarely hear anybody that's in the culture war talk about how that's in the culture war talk about how that's in the culture war talk about how we have to make sure that we don't we have to make sure that we don't we have to make sure that we don't become evil, too. No, the other side is become evil, too. No, the other side is become evil, too. No, the other side is purely evil. We're purely good. Simple purely evil. We're purely good. Simple purely evil. We're purely good. Simple as that. Let's just move forward. Very as that. Let's just move forward. Very as that. Let's just move forward. Very important. So, how we see ourselves, but important. So, how we see ourselves, but important. So, how we see ourselves, but also how we see our opposition. Nobody also how we see our opposition. Nobody also how we see our opposition. Nobody is irredeemable. This is I mean this is is irredeemable. This is I mean this is is irredeemable. This is I mean this is is so important because again it doesn't is so important because again it doesn't is so important because again it doesn't allow us to ju just dismiss everything allow us to ju just dismiss everything allow us to ju just dismiss everything the other side does as bad. It doesn't the other side does as bad. It doesn't the other side does as bad. It doesn't allow us to accept or justify everything allow us to accept or justify everything allow us to accept or justify everything we do as good. That is one of the main we do as good. That is one of the main we do as good. That is one of the main problems with the culture war. There's a problems with the culture war. There's a problems with the culture war. There's a lack of critique of our own side because lack of critique of our own side because lack of critique of our own side because the assumption is that we already always the assumption is that we already always the assumption is that we already always get it right and if we get it wrong it's get it right and if we get it wrong it's get it right and if we get it wrong it's really not that bad because surely

really not that bad because surely really not that bad because surely they're doing something worse on the they're doing something worse on the they're doing something worse on the other side. I think that's a big part of other side. I think that's a big part of other side. I think that's a big part of it. The other thing is it. The other thing is it. The other thing is when you look at the civil rights when you look at the civil rights when you look at the civil rights generation, they did not fit the culture generation, they did not fit the culture generation, they did not fit the culture war binary. They did not just say, "Hey, war binary. They did not just say, "Hey, war binary. They did not just say, "Hey, everything, you know, in this social everything, you know, in this social everything, you know, in this social gospel way is all about just social gospel way is all about just social gospel way is all about just social justice and that's it. That's all we justice and that's it. That's all we justice and that's it. That's all we need to worry about the oppressor and need to worry about the oppressor and need to worry about the oppressor and all this." No, no, no. They also all this." No, no, no. They also all this." No, no, no. They also understood individual sin and the understood individual sin and the understood individual sin and the importance of moral order. So, they were importance of moral order. So, they were importance of moral order. So, they were talking about justice on one side and talking about justice on one side and talking about justice on one side and moral order on the other. They weren't moral order on the other. They weren't moral order on the other. They weren't trying to. And the interesting thing, if trying to. And the interesting thing, if trying to. And the interesting thing, if you look at some of the writing of black you look at some of the writing of black you look at some of the writing of black denominations early on when the culture denominations early on when the culture denominations early on when the culture war first starts, they're watching the war first starts, they're watching the war first starts, they're watching the culture war. This is not something they culture war. This is not something they culture war. This is not something they weren't aware. They're watching the uh weren't aware. They're watching the uh weren't aware. They're watching the uh American church kind of split in two and American church kind of split in two and American church kind of split in two and they're commenting on it. They're they're commenting on it. They're they're commenting on it. They're saying, "Hey, we can't really choose saying, "Hey, we can't really choose saying, "Hey, we can't really choose either of these because if we go to the either of these because if we go to the either of these because if we go to the right, we lose our bodies because there right, we lose our bodies because there right, we lose our bodies because there just isn't justice there." And we that's just isn't justice there." And we that's just isn't justice there." And we that's what we're talking about some of the what we're talking about some of the what we're talking about some of the things that were going on in Birmingham.

things that were going on in Birmingham. things that were going on in Birmingham. But if we go to the left, we lose our But if we go to the left, we lose our But if we go to the left, we lose our souls because they're not following the souls because they're not following the souls because they're not following the authority of scripture. They're watching authority of scripture. They're watching authority of scripture. They're watching this split and they're saying neither of this split and they're saying neither of this split and they're saying neither of these is is right. And so we have to these is is right. And so we have to these is is right. And so we have to chart a different course. That's not chart a different course. That's not chart a different course. That's not talked about very much today. You know, talked about very much today. You know, talked about very much today. You know, it's it's it's assumed in a lot of areas it's it's it's assumed in a lot of areas it's it's it's assumed in a lot of areas that to be a black Christian is to be on that to be a black Christian is to be on that to be a black Christian is to be on the left. It's just a historical that's the left. It's just a historical that's the left. It's just a historical that's never been the case. But it also doesn't never been the case. But it also doesn't never been the case. But it also doesn't mean to be to be on the right. It was a mean to be to be on the right. It was a mean to be to be on the right. It was a different way of going about it. I think different way of going about it. I think different way of going about it. I think that helps us in the culture war because that helps us in the culture war because that helps us in the culture war because we can start to choose the right we can start to choose the right we can start to choose the right positions and not always be concerned positions and not always be concerned positions and not always be concerned about being on the right side because about being on the right side because about being on the right side because there is no side that's always going to there is no side that's always going to there is no side that's always going to take the right position. Tell us a take the right position. Tell us a take the right position. Tell us a little bit more about the shift in the little bit more about the shift in the little bit more about the shift in the 1960s from the early 1960s to the late 1960s from the early 1960s to the late 1960s from the early 1960s to the late 1960s because you hear a lot lot of 1960s because you hear a lot lot of 1960s because you hear a lot lot of conversation right now that's conversation right now that's conversation right now that's denigrating denigrating denigrating third way politics as as supposedly dead third way politics as as supposedly dead third way politics as as supposedly dead even though I think it's plainly evident even though I think it's plainly evident even though I think it's plainly evident that everybody's playing third way at that everybody's playing third way at that everybody's playing third way at some level. It's just it's pretty much some level. It's just it's pretty much some level. It's just it's pretty much unavoidable. Um nobody is all the way on unavoidable. Um nobody is all the way on unavoidable. Um nobody is all the way on one end or all the way on the other.

one end or all the way on the other. one end or all the way on the other. you're always kind of in the middle of you're always kind of in the middle of you're always kind of in the middle of of somebody. of somebody. of somebody. But I think a lot of people, to your But I think a lot of people, to your But I think a lot of people, to your point there, don't understand the shift point there, don't understand the shift point there, don't understand the shift of what happened in the early 1960s to of what happened in the early 1960s to of what happened in the early 1960s to the late 1960s because by the time he the late 1960s because by the time he the late 1960s because by the time he was assassinated, King had really gotten was assassinated, King had really gotten was assassinated, King had really gotten caught in a third way. A third way that caught in a third way. A third way that caught in a third way. A third way that turned out to be correct, but a third turned out to be correct, but a third turned out to be correct, but a third way that was very unpopular at the time. way that was very unpopular at the time. way that was very unpopular at the time. And that's between an emerging black And that's between an emerging black And that's between an emerging black power movement and then the abandonment power movement and then the abandonment power movement and then the abandonment of the white liberal establishment of of the white liberal establishment of of the white liberal establishment of King especially with his criticism of King especially with his criticism of King especially with his criticism of Vietnam um which led to the rupture with Vietnam um which led to the rupture with Vietnam um which led to the rupture with President Johnson and again King was President Johnson and again King was President Johnson and again King was correct. Not only that but also his correct. Not only that but also his correct. Not only that but also his pushing for more aggressive anti-poverty pushing for more aggressive anti-poverty pushing for more aggressive anti-poverty initiatives and the juxaposition of that initiatives and the juxaposition of that initiatives and the juxaposition of that with the money that was being spent um with the money that was being spent um with the money that was being spent um on this foolish war in Vietnam. So is on this foolish war in Vietnam. So is on this foolish war in Vietnam. So is there anything we can learn about that there anything we can learn about that there anything we can learn about that that dynamic? It it did not go well for that dynamic? It it did not go well for that dynamic? It it did not go well for King politically or otherwise and and King politically or otherwise and and King politically or otherwise and and tragically he loses his life in 1968, tragically he loses his life in 1968, tragically he loses his life in 1968, but he was correct in retrospect. And as but he was correct in retrospect. And as but he was correct in retrospect. And as many people commented in the wake of his many people commented in the wake of his many people commented in the wake of his assassination, assassination, assassination, um you know, the comments were white um you know, the comments were white um you know, the comments were white Americans lost their best friend because Americans lost their best friend because Americans lost their best friend because they don't understand what the they don't understand what the they don't understand what the alternative is. Is there anything alternative is. Is there anything alternative is. Is there anything instructive in that episode, do you instructive in that episode, do you instructive in that episode, do you think?

think? think? >> There's a there's a whole lot. It's >> There's a there's a whole lot. It's >> There's a there's a whole lot. It's almost like where do you begin with that almost like where do you begin with that almost like where do you begin with that whole dynamic because it was um a whole dynamic because it was um a whole dynamic because it was um a serious turn at that time. So you see serious turn at that time. So you see serious turn at that time. So you see you have a number of things I I I'll try you have a number of things I I I'll try you have a number of things I I I'll try to get to a couple things. You have a to get to a couple things. You have a to get to a couple things. You have a number of things happening. number of things happening. number of things happening. King starts to talk about a poor King starts to talk about a poor King starts to talk about a poor people's movement because he recognizes people's movement because he recognizes people's movement because he recognizes how people with economic power tend to how people with economic power tend to how people with economic power tend to play poor people against each other. Uh play poor people against each other. Uh play poor people against each other. Uh black poor people, white poor people. So black poor people, white poor people. So black poor people, white poor people. So even when you have the great migration, even when you have the great migration, even when you have the great migration, when African-Americans start moving when African-Americans start moving when African-Americans start moving north, you even see in cities like north, you even see in cities like north, you even see in cities like Chicago, well, when the poor white Chicago, well, when the poor white Chicago, well, when the poor white people would go on strike, they invite people would go on strike, they invite people would go on strike, they invite the the poor black people up to take the the poor black people up to take the the poor black people up to take those positions. This creates those positions. This creates those positions. This creates automatically this friction between the automatically this friction between the automatically this friction between the two. This was the story in Birmingham as two. This was the story in Birmingham as two. This was the story in Birmingham as well in the early 20th century, well in the early 20th century, well in the early 20th century, segregation, using segregation as a way segregation, using segregation as a way segregation, using segregation as a way of keeping poor white and poor black of keeping poor white and poor black of keeping poor white and poor black from uniting in um in a movement. And from uniting in um in a movement. And from uniting in um in a movement. And people start to realize this isn't just people start to realize this isn't just people start to realize this isn't just a matter of race. This is a these are a matter of race. This is a these are a matter of race. This is a these are class issues and we need to start class issues and we need to start class issues and we need to start focusing on poor people in general and focusing on poor people in general and focusing on poor people in general and showing people what they actually have showing people what they actually have showing people what they actually have in common. Neither side, you know, uh uh in common. Neither side, you know, uh uh in common. Neither side, you know, uh uh if you want to say neither political if you want to say neither political if you want to say neither political party was really covering that. And this party was really covering that. And this party was really covering that. And this is why when people say, "Well, just is why when people say, "Well, just is why when people say, "Well, just choose a side." I'm like, there's so choose a side." I'm like, there's so choose a side." I'm like, there's so many things that the parties are are many things that the parties are are many things that the parties are are both getting wrong together or both both getting wrong together or both both getting wrong together or both getting wrong for different reasons.

getting wrong for different reasons. getting wrong for different reasons. That that makes no sense. It's That that makes no sense. It's That that makes no sense. It's unimaginative. It is it just leaves us unimaginative. It is it just leaves us unimaginative. It is it just leaves us it's a it's a recipe to maintain the it's a it's a recipe to maintain the it's a it's a recipe to maintain the status quo. King starts to see that. status quo. King starts to see that. status quo. King starts to see that. Another dynamic that comes in is King is Another dynamic that comes in is King is Another dynamic that comes in is King is getting a lot of pressure from what getting a lot of pressure from what getting a lot of pressure from what become really black secular activism become really black secular activism become really black secular activism right which are you know the theqaame right which are you know the theqaame right which are you know the theqaame you know the the Black Panthers who are you know the the Black Panthers who are you know the the Black Panthers who are saying no all this you know turn the saying no all this you know turn the saying no all this you know turn the other cheek stuff all this integration other cheek stuff all this integration other cheek stuff all this integration stuff absolutely not. They start pushing stuff absolutely not. They start pushing stuff absolutely not. They start pushing back against that. And so we we see this back against that. And so we we see this back against that. And so we we see this shift and it's one of the things that we shift and it's one of the things that we shift and it's one of the things that we talked about earlier. Why didn't we just talked about earlier. Why didn't we just talked about earlier. Why didn't we just take what the civil rights movement had take what the civil rights movement had take what the civil rights movement had and kind of build on it. Well, you see and kind of build on it. Well, you see and kind of build on it. Well, you see this turn towards um movements that are this turn towards um movements that are this turn towards um movements that are that are really more in in some certain that are really more in in some certain that are really more in in some certain instances belligerent. And so that be we instances belligerent. And so that be we instances belligerent. And so that be we begin to see this change from the civil begin to see this change from the civil begin to see this change from the civil rights generation turning, you know, the rights generation turning, you know, the rights generation turning, you know, the there being even within our own there being even within our own there being even within our own community a turn to a different um community a turn to a different um community a turn to a different um focus. And that's not to say the civil focus. And that's not to say the civil focus. And that's not to say the civil rights movement got everything right, rights movement got everything right, rights movement got everything right, but certainly the core ethic was a more but certainly the core ethic was a more but certainly the core ethic was a more productive ethic than a lot of the productive ethic than a lot of the productive ethic than a lot of the things that took over. And I and I also things that took over. And I and I also things that took over. And I and I also don't want to talk about even the black.

don't want to talk about even the black. don't want to talk about even the black. I understand why people wanted to be I understand why people wanted to be I understand why people wanted to be more militant. Yeah. A lot of more militant. Yeah. A lot of more militant. Yeah. A lot of frustration. Yeah. I mean, when I mean, frustration. Yeah. I mean, when I mean, frustration. Yeah. I mean, when I mean, you look at what happened to Fred you look at what happened to Fred you look at what happened to Fred Hampton Hampton. You look at what was Hampton Hampton. You look at what was Hampton Hampton. You look at what was happening in Chicago because it wasn't happening in Chicago because it wasn't happening in Chicago because it wasn't just happening in the South. If you look just happening in the South. If you look just happening in the South. If you look at what was happening to at what was happening to at what was happening to African-Americans in Chicago, places African-Americans in Chicago, places African-Americans in Chicago, places like that, it was terrible. I can talk like that, it was terrible. I can talk like that, it was terrible. I can talk in theory about what I would have done, in theory about what I would have done, in theory about what I would have done, but I understand the turn to more but I understand the turn to more but I understand the turn to more militant ways of going about it. Do I militant ways of going about it. Do I militant ways of going about it. Do I think it was more productive? No. But I think it was more productive? No. But I think it was more productive? No. But I don't what I don't want to do is sound don't what I don't want to do is sound don't what I don't want to do is sound like I'm just condemning it like it just like I'm just condemning it like it just like I'm just condemning it like it just came out of nowhere. No, people were came out of nowhere. No, people were came out of nowhere. No, people were suffering, getting killed, and being suffering, getting killed, and being suffering, getting killed, and being treated extremely poorly. And and you treated extremely poorly. And and you treated extremely poorly. And and you see, you know, something different come see, you know, something different come see, you know, something different come out of that, rise out of that. out of that, rise out of that. out of that, rise out of that. >> Yeah. I just think it's so important, >> Yeah. I just think it's so important, >> Yeah. I just think it's so important, Justin, to talk about the difficulties Justin, to talk about the difficulties Justin, to talk about the difficulties in these situations because it helps to in these situations because it helps to in these situations because it helps to normalize the situations that we face normalize the situations that we face normalize the situations that we face today. today. today. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If you go back and you have a sanitized >> If you go back and you have a sanitized >> If you go back and you have a sanitized vision of King as the guy with a federal vision of King as the guy with a federal vision of King as the guy with a federal holiday, you just don't understand what holiday, you just don't understand what holiday, you just don't understand what how people regarded him when he died.

how people regarded him when he died. how people regarded him when he died. extremely unpopular for the reasons that extremely unpopular for the reasons that extremely unpopular for the reasons that we laid out right there because there we laid out right there because there we laid out right there because there were all sorts of frustrations of well were all sorts of frustrations of well were all sorts of frustrations of well we've made progress but why haven't we we've made progress but why haven't we we've made progress but why haven't we made more progress and then he again is made more progress and then he again is made more progress and then he again is vision continues to expand to see wait a vision continues to expand to see wait a vision continues to expand to see wait a minute all these things are linked minute all these things are linked minute all these things are linked together the foreign wars the economic together the foreign wars the economic together the foreign wars the economic situation the poverty between poor and situation the poverty between poor and situation the poverty between poor and white because Johnson had launched his white because Johnson had launched his white because Johnson had launched his war on poverty primarily focused on war on poverty primarily focused on war on poverty primarily focused on Appalachia primarily whites um but Appalachia primarily whites um but Appalachia primarily whites um but there's limited funding so Okay, can't there's limited funding so Okay, can't there's limited funding so Okay, can't don't have enough money for Vietnam and don't have enough money for Vietnam and don't have enough money for Vietnam and Appalachia and the inner city, let alone Appalachia and the inner city, let alone Appalachia and the inner city, let alone the rural south, um all these different the rural south, um all these different the rural south, um all these different places. And so when you understand the places. And so when you understand the places. And so when you understand the difficulties of what they faced from all difficulties of what they faced from all difficulties of what they faced from all sides, it helps you to understand, oh sides, it helps you to understand, oh sides, it helps you to understand, oh well, my situation is not unusual and well, my situation is not unusual and well, my situation is not unusual and maybe even isn't nearly as bad as their maybe even isn't nearly as bad as their maybe even isn't nearly as bad as their situation was. And I think that unlocks situation was. And I think that unlocks situation was. And I think that unlocks a little bit of the moral courage, which a little bit of the moral courage, which a little bit of the moral courage, which unlocks a little bit of the moral unlocks a little bit of the moral unlocks a little bit of the moral imagination to say, "Okay, if the Lord imagination to say, "Okay, if the Lord imagination to say, "Okay, if the Lord used these people, they were clearly not used these people, they were clearly not used these people, they were clearly not perfect people. They were not perfect people. They were not perfect people. They were not necessarily popular. They didn't have necessarily popular. They didn't have necessarily popular. They didn't have everything figured out, but then he can everything figured out, but then he can everything figured out, but then he can use me recognizing my own flaws and sins use me recognizing my own flaws and sins use me recognizing my own flaws and sins and and mistakes in there." Um, one of and and mistakes in there." Um, one of and and mistakes in there." Um, one of the things that you wrote, uh, you said, the things that you wrote, uh, you said, the things that you wrote, uh, you said, "We apparently believe that the "We apparently believe that the "We apparently believe that the situation is so dire that we must be situation is so dire that we must be situation is so dire that we must be mean and dishonest to survive."

mean and dishonest to survive." mean and dishonest to survive." Justin, I'd say that this is maybe the Justin, I'd say that this is maybe the Justin, I'd say that this is maybe the most painful lesson that I've learned in most painful lesson that I've learned in most painful lesson that I've learned in ministry. I was doing chapel at a ministry. I was doing chapel at a ministry. I was doing chapel at a college a number of years ago and I college a number of years ago and I college a number of years ago and I implored these students, do not believe implored these students, do not believe implored these students, do not believe that you can lie in the service of the that you can lie in the service of the that you can lie in the service of the Lord. And I'm sure this went over most Lord. And I'm sure this went over most Lord. And I'm sure this went over most of these young people's heads. Why is of these young people's heads. Why is of these young people's heads. Why is this why is this old guy talking to us this why is this old guy talking to us this why is this old guy talking to us about this? But it is so normal I find about this? But it is so normal I find about this? But it is so normal I find in ministry to people to offer what they in ministry to people to offer what they in ministry to people to offer what they believe to be I mean I think I'm believe to be I mean I think I'm believe to be I mean I think I'm assuming the best when I say that assuming the best when I say that assuming the best when I say that they're righteous lies or people who are they're righteous lies or people who are they're righteous lies or people who are just pure charlatans just pure charlatans just pure charlatans um are all over the place in ministry. um are all over the place in ministry. um are all over the place in ministry. But the question is not about them. It's But the question is not about them. It's But the question is not about them. It's about us. How do we avoid succumbing to about us. How do we avoid succumbing to about us. How do we avoid succumbing to this same temptation ourselves when we this same temptation ourselves when we this same temptation ourselves when we get frustrated that we're not making get frustrated that we're not making get frustrated that we're not making more progress? more progress? more progress? >> Again history helps us with that. Now >> Again history helps us with that. Now >> Again history helps us with that. Now obviously the scripture helps helps us obviously the scripture helps helps us obviously the scripture helps helps us with that. This moment is not the with that. This moment is not the with that. This moment is not the exception to Christian principles and I exception to Christian principles and I exception to Christian principles and I hear so many people saying Trump is so hear so many people saying Trump is so hear so many people saying Trump is so bad or progressives are so bad that we, bad or progressives are so bad that we, bad or progressives are so bad that we, you know, this is just a different you know, this is just a different you know, this is just a different moment. No, it's not. Uh and that's moment. No, it's not. Uh and that's moment. No, it's not. Uh and that's another reason why this book is another reason why this book is another reason why this book is important. I'm not just talking in important. I'm not just talking in important. I'm not just talking in theory that doing things the right way, theory that doing things the right way, theory that doing things the right way, doing things in a Christlike way is doing things in a Christlike way is doing things in a Christlike way is actually better and often more actually better and often more actually better and often more productive, right? more, you know, more productive, right? more, you know, more productive, right? more, you know, more effective. The civil rights movement is effective. The civil rights movement is effective. The civil rights movement is proof of concept. This, we have to get proof of concept. This, we have to get proof of concept. This, we have to get this through our heads. This is not the

this through our heads. This is not the this through our heads. This is not the worst moment ever. This is not this is worst moment ever. This is not this is worst moment ever. This is not this is when Christian principles matter the when Christian principles matter the when Christian principles matter the most. But because if we don't believe in most. But because if we don't believe in most. But because if we don't believe in unity in the church now, if we don't unity in the church now, if we don't unity in the church now, if we don't believe that loving your neighbor is the believe that loving your neighbor is the believe that loving your neighbor is the right thing to do now, we never believed right thing to do now, we never believed right thing to do now, we never believed it. And people are watching us from it. And people are watching us from it. And people are watching us from outside the church looking how we react. outside the church looking how we react. outside the church looking how we react. And anytime we don't get the person in And anytime we don't get the person in And anytime we don't get the person in office that we like, sure, we we may office that we like, sure, we we may office that we like, sure, we we may think the person's doing, you know, think the person's doing, you know, think the person's doing, you know, doing terrible things. That may all be doing terrible things. That may all be doing terrible things. That may all be true. You cannot react outside of true. You cannot react outside of true. You cannot react outside of Christian character because it's because Christian character because it's because Christian character because it's because it shows that you never believe the the it shows that you never believe the the it shows that you never believe the the standards that you were trying to hold standards that you were trying to hold standards that you were trying to hold other people to in the first place. It's other people to in the first place. It's other people to in the first place. It's wrong. And I see even people from pull wrong. And I see even people from pull wrong. And I see even people from pull pits, you know, even when we look at, pits, you know, even when we look at, pits, you know, even when we look at, you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination and all this going completely outside of and all this going completely outside of and all this going completely outside of the Sermon on the Mount, going the Sermon on the Mount, going the Sermon on the Mount, going completely outside of the primary things completely outside of the primary things completely outside of the primary things that Christians should be focused on in that Christians should be focused on in that Christians should be focused on in these moments when it matters the most these moments when it matters the most these moments when it matters the most to say, "No, this is why Christianity is to say, "No, this is why Christianity is to say, "No, this is why Christianity is different." Cuz we don't just react to different." Cuz we don't just react to different." Cuz we don't just react to the moments that you can shrug off the moments that you can shrug off the moments that you can shrug off differently. We react to the major differently. We react to the major differently. We react to the major moments and the moments that shake us up moments and the moments that shake us up moments and the moments that shake us up differently. And I just see a lot of differently. And I just see a lot of differently. And I just see a lot of even Christian leaders refusing to do even Christian leaders refusing to do even Christian leaders refusing to do this this that to do that. This is not this this that to do that. This is not this this that to do that. This is not the exception to Christian principles at the exception to Christian principles at the exception to Christian principles at all. And relatedly in the book you talk all. And relatedly in the book you talk all. And relatedly in the book you talk about the tyrant impulse which you about the tyrant impulse which you about the tyrant impulse which you describe as quote the urge not to win describe as quote the urge not to win describe as quote the urge not to win the debate but to summarily end the the debate but to summarily end the the debate but to summarily end the debate through intimidation or force.

debate through intimidation or force. debate through intimidation or force. You mentioned the Kirk assassination. You mentioned the Kirk assassination. You mentioned the Kirk assassination. Are you worried about an increase or Are you worried about an increase or Are you worried about an increase or resumption of politically motivated resumption of politically motivated resumption of politically motivated violence as we've seen in the past? I violence as we've seen in the past? I violence as we've seen in the past? I mean, it can go as bad as the 1860s or mean, it can go as bad as the 1860s or mean, it can go as bad as the 1860s or the 1960s. Do you worry about that at the 1960s. Do you worry about that at the 1960s. Do you worry about that at all? all? all? >> Oh, yeah. I I I definitely worry about >> Oh, yeah. I I I definitely worry about >> Oh, yeah. I I I definitely worry about that because people have come to such a that because people have come to such a that because people have come to such a point of desperation. And even within, point of desperation. And even within, point of desperation. And even within, let's just talk about church people. let's just talk about church people. let's just talk about church people. People have come to such a point of People have come to such a point of People have come to such a point of desperation. People lack that moral desperation. People lack that moral desperation. People lack that moral imagination that we've been talking imagination that we've been talking imagination that we've been talking about. when you lack that violence. I about. when you lack that violence. I about. when you lack that violence. I mean, when people talk about, okay, mean, when people talk about, okay, mean, when people talk about, okay, civility is not, you know, not going to civility is not, you know, not going to civility is not, you know, not going to get it done. I'm tired of hearing this get it done. I'm tired of hearing this get it done. I'm tired of hearing this talk about civility. talk about civility. talk about civility. What do you think the alternative is? What do you think the alternative is? What do you think the alternative is? The alternative to civility is violence. The alternative to civility is violence. The alternative to civility is violence. And most of the people who sit around And most of the people who sit around And most of the people who sit around and say that and preach it to others and say that and preach it to others and say that and preach it to others aren't ready for that type of uh aren't ready for that type of uh aren't ready for that type of uh outcome. outcome. outcome. So, you got to be very careful what So, you got to be very careful what So, you got to be very careful what you're telling people. This is not a you're telling people. This is not a you're telling people. This is not a game. You know, we can talk about just game. You know, we can talk about just game. You know, we can talk about just war theory and all that, but war war is war theory and all that, but war war is war theory and all that, but war war is not what you you don't want people not what you you don't want people not what you you don't want people ending debates with violence. I don't ending debates with violence. I don't ending debates with violence. I don't care if you agree with somebody with care if you agree with somebody with care if you agree with somebody with with what somebody had to say or not.

with what somebody had to say or not. with what somebody had to say or not. That's not the way to end the debate That's not the way to end the debate That's not the way to end the debate debate. If the merits of the case are on debate. If the merits of the case are on debate. If the merits of the case are on your side, sit down, make the case, and your side, sit down, make the case, and your side, sit down, make the case, and win the debate. But when we're told that win the debate. But when we're told that win the debate. But when we're told that there's no honest brokers out there, there's no honest brokers out there, there's no honest brokers out there, nobody can be persuaded. You just don't nobody can be persuaded. You just don't nobody can be persuaded. You just don't think it's worth making. It's always think it's worth making. It's always think it's worth making. It's always worth making. And that's the difference worth making. And that's the difference worth making. And that's the difference between a king who was willing to do the between a king who was willing to do the between a king who was willing to do the hard work of being artful hard work of being artful hard work of being artful while telling harsh truths and telling while telling harsh truths and telling while telling harsh truths and telling and being honest about what people are and being honest about what people are and being honest about what people are doing and what they should be doing. And doing and what they should be doing. And doing and what they should be doing. And then the person that just runs out there then the person that just runs out there then the person that just runs out there and gets pats on the back for throwing a and gets pats on the back for throwing a and gets pats on the back for throwing a public temper tantrum. That public public temper tantrum. That public public temper tantrum. That public temper tantrum, which seems authentic temper tantrum, which seems authentic temper tantrum, which seems authentic today or passionate today, does nothing today or passionate today, does nothing today or passionate today, does nothing to help anybody. It's much easier than to help anybody. It's much easier than to help anybody. It's much easier than being art to do that than to be artful being art to do that than to be artful being art to do that than to be artful and actually persuade someone who and actually persuade someone who and actually persuade someone who disagrees with you. Yeah. It's disagrees with you. Yeah. It's disagrees with you. Yeah. It's performative. It's not productive. It's performative. It's not productive. It's performative. It's not productive. It's performative. Exactly. There are young performative. Exactly. There are young performative. Exactly. There are young people who are looking for a path people who are looking for a path people who are looking for a path forward. They're being drawn towards forward. They're being drawn towards forward. They're being drawn towards some really bad alternatives that we're some really bad alternatives that we're some really bad alternatives that we're that we're mentioning here. But somebody that we're mentioning here. But somebody that we're mentioning here. But somebody looking up to you in ministry and looking up to you in ministry and looking up to you in ministry and activism, what is it that you would most activism, what is it that you would most activism, what is it that you would most want them to know? It might be something want them to know? It might be something want them to know? It might be something you've already said here, but they're you've already said here, but they're you've already said here, but they're saying, "Justin, I need I want to be saying, "Justin, I need I want to be saying, "Justin, I need I want to be involved in this kind of activism. I involved in this kind of activism. I involved in this kind of activism. I want to change the world. I'm hopeful want to change the world. I'm hopeful want to change the world. I'm hopeful about this. I'm optimistic about this.

about this. I'm optimistic about this. about this. I'm optimistic about this. I'm I'm pursuing Christ in this." What's I'm I'm pursuing Christ in this." What's I'm I'm pursuing Christ in this." What's that what's that bit of advice you'd that what's that bit of advice you'd that what's that bit of advice you'd give them? My advice would be that give them? My advice would be that give them? My advice would be that whatever cause you take, whatever, you whatever cause you take, whatever, you whatever cause you take, whatever, you know, group you join or move movement know, group you join or move movement know, group you join or move movement you start to pursue that, be willing to you start to pursue that, be willing to you start to pursue that, be willing to critique it. Be willing to critique critique it. Be willing to critique critique it. Be willing to critique yourself. uh you will not be able to yourself. uh you will not be able to yourself. uh you will not be able to persuade others or to get things done if persuade others or to get things done if persuade others or to get things done if you're not willing to be honest about you're not willing to be honest about you're not willing to be honest about what you get wrong. Uh and what do we what you get wrong. Uh and what do we what you get wrong. Uh and what do we talk about? That's a hard thing to do talk about? That's a hard thing to do talk about? That's a hard thing to do because no tribe, no party, no ideology because no tribe, no party, no ideology because no tribe, no party, no ideology is going to easily allow you to critique is going to easily allow you to critique is going to easily allow you to critique it. It just doesn't happen. I mean that it. It just doesn't happen. I mean that it. It just doesn't happen. I mean that and that's why, you know, all this stuff and that's why, you know, all this stuff and that's why, you know, all this stuff about we recently heard, you know, about we recently heard, you know, about we recently heard, you know, there's people talking about there's there's people talking about there's there's people talking about there's nobody we we're not going to go against nobody we we're not going to go against nobody we we're not going to go against anybody on our side. Well, that's easy. anybody on our side. Well, that's easy. anybody on our side. Well, that's easy. That's what gangs do. That's what cults That's what gangs do. That's what cults That's what gangs do. That's what cults do, right? Um, you know, they say the do, right? Um, you know, they say the do, right? Um, you know, they say the other side gets every single thing wrong other side gets every single thing wrong other side gets every single thing wrong and they're all If you believe that, and they're all If you believe that, and they're all If you believe that, you're you're in danger of being in a you're you're in danger of being in a you're you're in danger of being in a very bad situation because you are you very bad situation because you are you very bad situation because you are you are not a critical thinker. And a are not a critical thinker. And a are not a critical thinker. And a Christian always has to be willing to Christian always has to be willing to Christian always has to be willing to think critically. We cannot be think critically. We cannot be think critically. We cannot be indoctrinated. So, what I want people to indoctrinated. So, what I want people to indoctrinated. So, what I want people to know is anybody that says the other side know is anybody that says the other side know is anybody that says the other side gets every single thing wrong and gets every single thing wrong and gets every single thing wrong and historically has done so wants to historically has done so wants to historically has done so wants to indoctrinate you and wants you not to indoctrinate you and wants you not to indoctrinate you and wants you not to think because once they get you to agree think because once they get you to agree think because once they get you to agree with that, then you're just going to with that, then you're just going to with that, then you're just going to rubber stamp everything they say and rubber stamp everything they say and rubber stamp everything they say and they know that. So, don't ever believe they know that. So, don't ever believe they know that. So, don't ever believe that. You should want to follow leaders that. You should want to follow leaders that. You should want to follow leaders that say that want you to think for that say that want you to think for that say that want you to think for yourself that are open to being

yourself that are open to being yourself that are open to being critiqued and and seeing what's right critiqued and and seeing what's right critiqued and and seeing what's right and wrong and how we can improve. And and wrong and how we can improve. And and wrong and how we can improve. And one great example of that historically one great example of that historically one great example of that historically that I have to always bring up is people that I have to always bring up is people that I have to always bring up is people miss the fact that miss the fact that miss the fact that um Frederick Douglas actually actually um Frederick Douglas actually actually um Frederick Douglas actually actually critiqued the abolitionist movement. critiqued the abolitionist movement. critiqued the abolitionist movement. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> This was someone who was once a slave. >> This was someone who was once a slave. >> This was someone who was once a slave. He goes and looks and says no what He goes and looks and says no what He goes and looks and says no what you're doing wrong. And I'm not just you're doing wrong. And I'm not just you're doing wrong. And I'm not just going to say that privately. I'm going going to say that privately. I'm going going to say that privately. I'm going to say publicly that this way of going to say publicly that this way of going to say publicly that this way of going about it is wrong. If Frederick Douglas about it is wrong. If Frederick Douglas about it is wrong. If Frederick Douglas Douglas can do that, don't you let Douglas can do that, don't you let Douglas can do that, don't you let anybody ever tell you that in this anybody ever tell you that in this anybody ever tell you that in this moment, this moment's too crazy or this moment, this moment's too crazy or this moment, this moment's too crazy or this moment's too critical for you to think moment's too critical for you to think moment's too critical for you to think through things and critique uh those through things and critique uh those through things and critique uh those around you. around you. around you. >> Became a big point of contention between >> Became a big point of contention between >> Became a big point of contention between him him and William Lloyd Garrison, him him and William Lloyd Garrison, him him and William Lloyd Garrison, didn't it? didn't it? didn't it? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, >> he didn't want to get rid of the the >> he didn't want to get rid of the the >> he didn't want to get rid of the the Constitution. He thought that was the Constitution. He thought that was the Constitution. He thought that was the mechanism to get it done. So, he thought mechanism to get it done. So, he thought mechanism to get it done. So, he thought that morally and strategically that was that morally and strategically that was that morally and strategically that was a bad way of going about it. and he a bad way of going about it. and he a bad way of going about it. and he said, "So, can you imagine that? We have said, "So, can you imagine that? We have said, "So, can you imagine that? We have this grand objective that we agree on this grand objective that we agree on this grand objective that we agree on and you're willing to say no, that's not and you're willing to say no, that's not and you're willing to say no, that's not the way to go about it. We're not the way to go about it. We're not the way to go about it. We're not together on that publicly." This wasn't together on that publicly." This wasn't together on that publicly." This wasn't just a private conversation. He said it just a private conversation. He said it just a private conversation. He said it publicly. So, that's why when people, publicly. So, that's why when people, publicly. So, that's why when people, you know, come to me and say, "Well, how you know, come to me and say, "Well, how you know, come to me and say, "Well, how could you talk about progressives when could you talk about progressives when could you talk about progressives when Trump is so bad?" Or, "How can you talk Trump is so bad?" Or, "How can you talk Trump is so bad?" Or, "How can you talk how can you critique, you know, uh, this how can you critique, you know, uh, this how can you critique, you know, uh, this side or that side when when, you know, side or that side when when, you know, side or that side when when, you know, someone the other side is so bad?"

someone the other side is so bad?" someone the other side is so bad?" That's not the way things work. Jesus, That's not the way things work. Jesus, That's not the way things work. Jesus, if we if we want to remember, his people if we if we want to remember, his people if we if we want to remember, his people were under an occupation and he still were under an occupation and he still were under an occupation and he still critiqued his own people and you know critiqued his own people and you know critiqued his own people and you know the religious establishment and all the religious establishment and all the religious establishment and all that. These are this is what you have to that. These are this is what you have to that. These are this is what you have to do if you love the truth and if you do if you love the truth and if you do if you love the truth and if you don't if you love your narrative more don't if you love your narrative more don't if you love your narrative more than that then you don't do it. Those than that then you don't do it. Those than that then you don't do it. Those are the those are the options. Is this are the those are the options. Is this are the those are the options. Is this what can save a political party from what can save a political party from what can save a political party from flipping over into that territory of flipping over into that territory of flipping over into that territory of well you have a couple different options well you have a couple different options well you have a couple different options and some get some right and some get and some get some right and some get and some get some right and some get wrong to flipping over into straight up wrong to flipping over into straight up wrong to flipping over into straight up oh no no no no no this is this is oh no no no no no this is this is oh no no no no no this is this is unacceptable I'm thinking here whether unacceptable I'm thinking here whether unacceptable I'm thinking here whether it's the Nazis 1930s40s communists the it's the Nazis 1930s40s communists the it's the Nazis 1930s40s communists the democrats in 1860 you know as basically democrats in 1860 you know as basically democrats in 1860 you know as basically nothing but a prosl I mean there was nothing but a prosl I mean there was nothing but a prosl I mean there was there were divisions I should say but there were divisions I should say but there were divisions I should say but the southern democratic party very much the southern democratic party very much the southern democratic party very much just I mean slavery was the was the end just I mean slavery was the was the end just I mean slavery was the was the end all beall to everything in there. Is all beall to everything in there. Is all beall to everything in there. Is this what prevents that from happening this what prevents that from happening this what prevents that from happening when there has to be that clean break or when there has to be that clean break or when there has to be that clean break or how do you prevent that from happening?

how do you prevent that from happening? how do you prevent that from happening? Because it's it's not like it's rare in Because it's it's not like it's rare in Because it's it's not like it's rare in history where entire political party, history where entire political party, history where entire political party, entire governing party can slip into entire governing party can slip into entire governing party can slip into just something absolutely horrible. just something absolutely horrible. just something absolutely horrible. Yeah. That self-examination and Yeah. That self-examination and Yeah. That self-examination and accountability for any movement is a accountability for any movement is a accountability for any movement is a must. I mean, we can talk about all the must. I mean, we can talk about all the must. I mean, we can talk about all the movements that have broken our hearts movements that have broken our hearts movements that have broken our hearts and we've seen them fall and leaders and we've seen them fall and leaders and we've seen them fall and leaders that all these cover that's where that all these cover that's where that all these cover that's where cover-ups come from because we think cover-ups come from because we think cover-ups come from because we think what we're doing at the end of the day what we're doing at the end of the day what we're doing at the end of the day is so good that we can just we don't is so good that we can just we don't is so good that we can just we don't need to really get into that of No, we need to really get into that of No, we need to really get into that of No, we do because when we don't examine do because when we don't examine do because when we don't examine ourselves and hold ourselves ourselves and hold ourselves ourselves and hold ourselves accountable, we end up we're not good accountable, we end up we're not good accountable, we end up we're not good enough as people to have a pure movement enough as people to have a pure movement enough as people to have a pure movement or pure organization without that or pure organization without that or pure organization without that examination. examination. examination. And without that that honesty, it And without that that honesty, it And without that that honesty, it doesn't mean that you need to every time doesn't mean that you need to every time doesn't mean that you need to every time somebody makes a mistake, you got to somebody makes a mistake, you got to somebody makes a mistake, you got to tear them down as much as you can, but tear them down as much as you can, but tear them down as much as you can, but it means we have to be honest about it means we have to be honest about it means we have to be honest about where we can go wrong. No movement is where we can go wrong. No movement is where we can go wrong. No movement is good enough not to do that. good enough not to do that. good enough not to do that. >> I love that about needing to be honest >> I love that about needing to be honest >> I love that about needing to be honest about where we can where we can go about where we can where we can go about where we can where we can go wrong. I think I think Justin working in wrong. I think I think Justin working in wrong. I think I think Justin working in politics has given me a different politics has given me a different politics has given me a different perspective on these things. Maybe it's perspective on these things. Maybe it's perspective on these things. Maybe it's the same way for you. Yeah. I mean, not the same way for you. Yeah. I mean, not the same way for you. Yeah. I mean, not not not everybody's had that experience not not everybody's had that experience not not everybody's had that experience working in local or state or or federal working in local or state or or federal working in local or state or or federal government. Um, and you mentioned government. Um, and you mentioned government. Um, and you mentioned earlier the competing or alternating earlier the competing or alternating earlier the competing or alternating overreaches.

overreaches. overreaches. And when you've been around politics for And when you've been around politics for And when you've been around politics for quite a while, you see you see that quite a while, you see you see that quite a while, you see you see that happen and you you come to expect it. happen and you you come to expect it. happen and you you come to expect it. And so when people make statements And so when people make statements And so when people make statements about, oh, this is this is going to about, oh, this is this is going to about, oh, this is this is going to change everything. This is going to change everything. This is going to change everything. This is going to change everything forever. And you change everything forever. And you change everything forever. And you realize usually the group that is on is realize usually the group that is on is realize usually the group that is on is in power when that's being said is the in power when that's being said is the in power when that's being said is the one that's in most political danger one that's in most political danger one that's in most political danger because that's usually what precedes because that's usually what precedes because that's usually what precedes their overreach and their collapse. their overreach and their collapse. their overreach and their collapse. Also, it's easier to keep opposition Also, it's easier to keep opposition Also, it's easier to keep opposition parties together than it is to keep parties together than it is to keep parties together than it is to keep governing parties together because you governing parties together because you governing parties together because you have to have a bigger coalition to have to have a bigger coalition to have to have a bigger coalition to govern and then all of a sudden people govern and then all of a sudden people govern and then all of a sudden people are upset because things don't change. are upset because things don't change. are upset because things don't change. It's easier to be a get something than It's easier to be a get something than It's easier to be a get something than it is to be for something. Do you have it is to be for something. Do you have it is to be for something. Do you have any advice for for Christians who are in any advice for for Christians who are in any advice for for Christians who are in either political party right now? um in either political party right now? um in either political party right now? um in this Democratic party that appears to be this Democratic party that appears to be this Democratic party that appears to be in the political wilderness, but the in the political wilderness, but the in the political wilderness, but the Republican party has a president who is Republican party has a president who is Republican party has a president who is just by the polling deeply unpopular at just by the polling deeply unpopular at just by the polling deeply unpopular at the point in which we are we're the point in which we are we're the point in which we are we're recording this interview. Um that can recording this interview. Um that can recording this interview. Um that can change, but in a polarized country change, but in a polarized country change, but in a polarized country that's kind of become the norm um of that's kind of become the norm um of that's kind of become the norm um of pretty unpopular presidents. So now pretty unpopular presidents. So now pretty unpopular presidents. So now let's just say the Democrats or the let's just say the Democrats or the let's just say the Democrats or the Republicans, they sit you down. They Republicans, they sit you down. They Republicans, they sit you down. They say, "Hey, we're listening." What advice say, "Hey, we're listening." What advice say, "Hey, we're listening." What advice do you give them? I say you have to do you give them? I say you have to do you give them? I say you have to listen to people and and when we talk listen to people and and when we talk listen to people and and when we talk about being in politics and learning, I about being in politics and learning, I about being in politics and learning, I think I in a way I learned the hard way.

think I in a way I learned the hard way. think I in a way I learned the hard way. I was part of an administration here and I was part of an administration here and I was part of an administration here and I think the administration did good I think the administration did good I think the administration did good work. But I remember I was talking to work. But I remember I was talking to work. But I remember I was talking to one of my mentors and I told her I said one of my mentors and I told her I said one of my mentors and I told her I said I man why is this group going against I man why is this group going against I man why is this group going against us? Why don't they just get out the way us? Why don't they just get out the way us? Why don't they just get out the way and let us do what we need to do? and let us do what we need to do? and let us do what we need to do? And she got really mad and she said who And she got really mad and she said who And she got really mad and she said who who do you think you are? who do you think you are? who do you think you are? You need these people. They're doing You need these people. They're doing You need these people. They're doing what they're supposed to do. They're what they're supposed to do. They're what they're supposed to do. They're actually right on this one. You think actually right on this one. You think actually right on this one. You think that you're just supposed to get out the that you're just supposed to get out the that you're just supposed to get out the way and let you do what you need to do? way and let you do what you need to do? way and let you do what you need to do? Let you do whatever you want to do with Let you do whatever you want to do with Let you do whatever you want to do with the city cuz you guys think you're that the city cuz you guys think you're that the city cuz you guys think you're that right. You're not that right. right. You're not that right. right. You're not that right. And that's a message that we all need to And that's a message that we all need to And that's a message that we all need to learn. learn. learn. Your opposition sometimes keeps you Your opposition sometimes keeps you Your opposition sometimes keeps you honest. And I would ask people, when's honest. And I would ask people, when's honest. And I would ask people, when's the last time that you looked at the last time that you looked at the last time that you looked at somebody who disagreed with you and said somebody who disagreed with you and said somebody who disagreed with you and said you're right? you're right? you're right? And if you haven't done that, you're And if you haven't done that, you're And if you haven't done that, you're missing something. You're either missing something. You're either missing something. You're either prideful or you're blind to what you're prideful or you're blind to what you're prideful or you're blind to what you're doing wrong. We need to hear those doing wrong. We need to hear those doing wrong. We need to hear those voices that are pushing back against us.

voices that are pushing back against us. voices that are pushing back against us. Nobody, this is why nobody needs to have Nobody, this is why nobody needs to have Nobody, this is why nobody needs to have this type of absolute power. But it is this type of absolute power. But it is this type of absolute power. But it is easy, as I found out that day, and I had easy, as I found out that day, and I had easy, as I found out that day, and I had to go back and really examine myself. I to go back and really examine myself. I to go back and really examine myself. I found out that day, it's easy to fall found out that day, it's easy to fall found out that day, it's easy to fall into that idea that just we're we're into that idea that just we're we're into that idea that just we're we're good. just let us do what we need to do. good. just let us do what we need to do. good. just let us do what we need to do. You're stopping the good from happening You're stopping the good from happening You're stopping the good from happening when sometimes they're saving you from when sometimes they're saving you from when sometimes they're saving you from yourself. Yeah, that's really good. yourself. Yeah, that's really good. yourself. Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Um That's really good. Um That's really good. Um I sometimes I have to explain to people I sometimes I have to explain to people I sometimes I have to explain to people especially because of my background in especially because of my background in especially because of my background in politics and some of my personal politics and some of my personal politics and some of my personal inclinations and and weaknesses. I have inclinations and and weaknesses. I have inclinations and and weaknesses. I have to say I don't actually enjoy being to say I don't actually enjoy being to say I don't actually enjoy being right. What I love more than that is right. What I love more than that is right. What I love more than that is learning. learning. learning. >> Because learning is what allows you to >> Because learning is what allows you to >> Because learning is what allows you to course correct. And politics is a lot of course correct. And politics is a lot of course correct. And politics is a lot of you not being right about stuff that you you not being right about stuff that you you not being right about stuff that you can't control. You can come in with can't control. You can come in with can't control. You can come in with ideology and everybody does. That's ideology and everybody does. That's ideology and everybody does. That's fine. Certain assumptions about how fine. Certain assumptions about how fine. Certain assumptions about how things ought to work. Certain moral things ought to work. Certain moral things ought to work. Certain moral convictions about, hey, I'm going to convictions about, hey, I'm going to convictions about, hey, I'm going to stand with this whether or not people stand with this whether or not people stand with this whether or not people like it or not. Those are good things in like it or not. Those are good things in like it or not. Those are good things in politics. But at the same time, you are politics. But at the same time, you are politics. But at the same time, you are going to be overwhelmed when you're in going to be overwhelmed when you're in going to be overwhelmed when you're in charge of something. You are going to be charge of something. You are going to be charge of something. You are going to be overwhelmed with what you don't know.

overwhelmed with what you don't know. overwhelmed with what you don't know. And if you have an attitude toward And if you have an attitude toward And if you have an attitude toward everybody that that's cynical, that you everybody that that's cynical, that you everybody that that's cynical, that you cannot learn from anybody, that is the cannot learn from anybody, that is the cannot learn from anybody, that is the shest guarantee that you will collapse. shest guarantee that you will collapse. shest guarantee that you will collapse. Your political base will abandon you. Your political base will abandon you. Your political base will abandon you. And it seems as though we're getting to And it seems as though we're getting to And it seems as though we're getting to a point where the leaders of our major a point where the leaders of our major a point where the leaders of our major political parties do not want to live in political parties do not want to live in political parties do not want to live in reality. And we've seen this. People reality. And we've seen this. People reality. And we've seen this. People want to pick on President Biden. It want to pick on President Biden. It want to pick on President Biden. It seems very clear in the reporting. seems very clear in the reporting. seems very clear in the reporting. People were not telling him the truth People were not telling him the truth People were not telling him the truth about what was happening. Um and I'm not about what was happening. Um and I'm not about what was happening. Um and I'm not sure that he wanted to know the truth. I sure that he wanted to know the truth. I sure that he wanted to know the truth. I think we can see plenty of that in think we can see plenty of that in think we can see plenty of that in President Trump as well. Um but it seems President Trump as well. Um but it seems President Trump as well. Um but it seems this is a pretty easy way to go wrong in this is a pretty easy way to go wrong in this is a pretty easy way to go wrong in politics. And I would say that it's at politics. And I would say that it's at politics. And I would say that it's at the heart of what I see is being wrong the heart of what I see is being wrong the heart of what I see is being wrong with Christian nationalism. with Christian nationalism. with Christian nationalism. It's this idea that let us take over. It's this idea that let us take over. It's this idea that let us take over. Let us have this privilege to where what Let us have this privilege to where what Let us have this privilege to where what we say is right and our culture has been we say is right and our culture has been we say is right and our culture has been right for the longest. So let us control right for the longest. So let us control right for the longest. So let us control this and we really don't need the this and we really don't need the this and we really don't need the contribution of contributions of others.

contribution of contributions of others. contribution of contributions of others. Now, if we look at that historically, Now, if we look at that historically, Now, if we look at that historically, why the rest of the country and why why the rest of the country and why why the rest of the country and why people outside of the Christian people outside of the Christian people outside of the Christian nationalist ideology would ever believe nationalist ideology would ever believe nationalist ideology would ever believe that? There's no record of credibility that? There's no record of credibility that? There's no record of credibility to show people that that's actually been to show people that that's actually been to show people that that's actually been the case and you've led us in the right the case and you've led us in the right the case and you've led us in the right direction at all times. But that direction at all times. But that direction at all times. But that Christians can never, if you look at the Christians can never, if you look at the Christians can never, if you look at the Bible, there's nothing to indicate that Bible, there's nothing to indicate that Bible, there's nothing to indicate that God's people had all the answers or that God's people had all the answers or that God's people had all the answers or that they didn't need other people's they didn't need other people's they didn't need other people's contribution or that they could lean on contribution or that they could lean on contribution or that they could lean on their own wisdom. Where did we get that their own wisdom. Where did we get that their own wisdom. Where did we get that from? from? from? It's this pride that that that has It's this pride that that that has It's this pride that that that has completely whitewashed the whole history completely whitewashed the whole history completely whitewashed the whole history to make us believe that it the only the to make us believe that it the only the to make us believe that it the only the only thing wrong was with America is only thing wrong was with America is only thing wrong was with America is when progressives got in the way or when progressives got in the way or when progressives got in the way or those black activists got in the way. If those black activists got in the way. If those black activists got in the way. If they would have just let us do our they would have just let us do our they would have just let us do our thing, we would have been fine. Where thing, we would have been fine. Where thing, we would have been fine. Where [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] where does that come from? It's so where does that come from? It's so where does that come from? It's so dangerous dangerous dangerous um and and un uncristlike that that I um and and un uncristlike that that I um and and un uncristlike that that I mean it it it is it's it's it's mean it it it is it's it's it's mean it it it is it's it's it's something we really need to I think something we really need to I think something we really need to I think people really need to push back against people really need to push back against people really need to push back against um in a different way cuz I think one of um in a different way cuz I think one of um in a different way cuz I think one of the problems that we're having right now the problems that we're having right now the problems that we're having right now is a lot of the is a lot of the is a lot of the Christian nationalism is being pushed Christian nationalism is being pushed Christian nationalism is being pushed back by really identitarianism on the back by really identitarianism on the back by really identitarianism on the other side. Uh, and so you have a a poor other side. Uh, and so you have a a poor other side. Uh, and so you have a a poor response or reaction to something that response or reaction to something that response or reaction to something that is dangerous with something else that's is dangerous with something else that's is dangerous with something else that's that's very dangerous. And so sometimes that's very dangerous. And so sometimes that's very dangerous. And so sometimes the folks pushing back against it don't the folks pushing back against it don't the folks pushing back against it don't have a lot of credibility in themselves.

have a lot of credibility in themselves. have a lot of credibility in themselves. Well, I think power is a shortcut when Well, I think power is a shortcut when Well, I think power is a shortcut when persuasion doesn't work or at least you persuasion doesn't work or at least you persuasion doesn't work or at least you perceive that it doesn't work. perceive that it doesn't work. perceive that it doesn't work. Disciplehip, evangelism, Disciplehip, evangelism, Disciplehip, evangelism, apologetics, persuasion, coalition apologetics, persuasion, coalition apologetics, persuasion, coalition building, [gasps] all those things are building, [gasps] all those things are building, [gasps] all those things are very difficult. They're not guaranteed very difficult. They're not guaranteed very difficult. They're not guaranteed to work. Power presents itself as a to work. Power presents itself as a to work. Power presents itself as a potential shortcut to that. And the potential shortcut to that. And the potential shortcut to that. And the shortcut to power comes through shortcut to power comes through shortcut to power comes through demagoguery, demagoguery, demagoguery, which has always been a problem. I mean, which has always been a problem. I mean, which has always been a problem. I mean, it's it's it's unhinged plenty of it's it's it's unhinged plenty of it's it's it's unhinged plenty of democracies before or plenty of democracies before or plenty of democracies before or plenty of democratic efforts throughout history. democratic efforts throughout history. democratic efforts throughout history. It's why people were so afraid of that. It's why people were so afraid of that. It's why people were so afraid of that. The combination of demagoguery and The combination of demagoguery and The combination of demagoguery and populism. Now, we've described different populism. Now, we've described different populism. Now, we've described different ways in this interview way populism has ways in this interview way populism has ways in this interview way populism has been a good thing. Fred Shuddlesworth be been a good thing. Fred Shuddlesworth be been a good thing. Fred Shuddlesworth be an example of somebody who was very much an example of somebody who was very much an example of somebody who was very much a champion of the people against the a champion of the people against the a champion of the people against the powers powers even in his own community powers powers even in his own community powers powers even in his own community on multiple sides in there. So in and of on multiple sides in there. So in and of on multiple sides in there. So in and of itself that's not bad but it's the itself that's not bad but it's the itself that's not bad but it's the demagoguery was not it's not it's not demagoguery was not it's not it's not demagoguery was not it's not it's not hinged to a certain principle or as we hinged to a certain principle or as we hinged to a certain principle or as we keep going back to a moral framework.

keep going back to a moral framework. keep going back to a moral framework. It's simply whatever will work uh to be It's simply whatever will work uh to be It's simply whatever will work uh to be able to rile up the masses which is a able to rile up the masses which is a able to rile up the masses which is a means of gaining control and ultimately means of gaining control and ultimately means of gaining control and ultimately of consolidating power. Funny how those of consolidating power. Funny how those of consolidating power. Funny how those populist movements don't seem to result populist movements don't seem to result populist movements don't seem to result in major benefit to the people, but a in major benefit to the people, but a in major benefit to the people, but a consolidation of of that power that consolidation of of that power that consolidation of of that power that benefits often the elites there as well. benefits often the elites there as well. benefits often the elites there as well. >> My my my read of history there, not >> My my my read of history there, not >> My my my read of history there, not necessarily others, but that's often the necessarily others, but that's often the necessarily others, but that's often the temptation there. So, I think that's the temptation there. So, I think that's the temptation there. So, I think that's the temptation that we see. And then the way temptation that we see. And then the way temptation that we see. And then the way to build that kind of political base is to build that kind of political base is to build that kind of political base is through various forms of identity through various forms of identity through various forms of identity politics these days. Um, and those are politics these days. Um, and those are politics these days. Um, and those are very concerning. Um, well, any any last very concerning. Um, well, any any last very concerning. Um, well, any any last word you want to say? I don't want to word you want to say? I don't want to word you want to say? I don't want to end it on that note necessarily, but uh end it on that note necessarily, but uh end it on that note necessarily, but uh any last words to add of advice, Justin? any last words to add of advice, Justin? any last words to add of advice, Justin? >> No, this is this has been a great >> No, this is this has been a great >> No, this is this has been a great conversation. I I just want people to conversation. I I just want people to conversation. I I just want people to know that when people imply that being know that when people imply that being know that when people imply that being civil and being um charitable is not civil and being um charitable is not civil and being um charitable is not effective.

effective. effective. ask them to show you a more effective ask them to show you a more effective ask them to show you a more effective effort than the civil rights movement, effort than the civil rights movement, effort than the civil rights movement, which did just that. Uh we we have been which did just that. Uh we we have been which did just that. Uh we we have been fooled into thinking, as I said before, fooled into thinking, as I said before, fooled into thinking, as I said before, that these public temper tantrums where that these public temper tantrums where that these public temper tantrums where we insult people, tell them how stupid we insult people, tell them how stupid we insult people, tell them how stupid they are, tell them how racist they are they are, tell them how racist they are they are, tell them how racist they are or whatever, actually is a an effective or whatever, actually is a an effective or whatever, actually is a an effective way to get things done. It's not. And I way to get things done. It's not. And I way to get things done. It's not. And I hope this book, don't don't let nobody hope this book, don't don't let nobody hope this book, don't don't let nobody turn you around, shows us uh that going turn you around, shows us uh that going turn you around, shows us uh that going about it in a more Christlike way, is about it in a more Christlike way, is about it in a more Christlike way, is number one, even if it wasn't effective, number one, even if it wasn't effective, number one, even if it wasn't effective, would be right, but is is still more would be right, but is is still more would be right, but is is still more effective than the other way of going effective than the other way of going effective than the other way of going about it, which is just short-sighted about it, which is just short-sighted about it, which is just short-sighted and may give us results immediately. and may give us results immediately. and may give us results immediately. It'll always fall apart or just [music] It'll always fall apart or just [music] It'll always fall apart or just [music] turn us into monsters. my guest Justin turn us into monsters. my guest Justin turn us into monsters. my guest Justin Gibbony, the book, Don't Let Nobody Turn Gibbony, the book, Don't Let Nobody Turn Gibbony, the book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around: How [music] the Black You Around: How [music] the Black You Around: How [music] the Black Church's Public Witness leads us out of Church's Public Witness leads us out of Church's Public Witness leads us out of the Culture War. It's new from IVP. the Culture War. It's new from IVP. the Culture War. It's new from IVP. Justin, [music] for many years, you've Justin, [music] for many years, you've Justin, [music] for many years, you've been one of my favorite people to been one of my favorite people to been one of my favorite people to interview. Really appreciate the time, interview. Really appreciate the time, interview. Really appreciate the time, >> man. I appreciate what you're doing, >> man. I appreciate what you're doing, >> man. I appreciate what you're doing, brother. Thanks for having me.

>> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. [music] Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.