How to Exit Tech

The amount of AI chatbot apps a child The amount of AI chatbot apps a child can access on a smartphone is extremely can access on a smartphone is extremely can access on a smartphone is extremely dangerous. And now all the social media dangerous. And now all the social media dangerous. And now all the social media platforms, Meta has integrated AI chat platforms, Meta has integrated AI chat platforms, Meta has integrated AI chat bots into their platforms. And so you bots into their platforms. And so you bots into their platforms. And so you may not even know. You think your may not even know. You think your may not even know. You think your child's just on social media. You have child's just on social media. You have child's just on social media. You have no idea they are engaging with no idea they are engaging with no idea they are engaging with incredibly sexual or dangerous content incredibly sexual or dangerous content incredibly sexual or dangerous content conversations with a chatbot. It's kind conversations with a chatbot. It's kind conversations with a chatbot. It's kind of alarming the speed at which we've of alarming the speed at which we've of alarming the speed at which we've seen this acceleration. And so I would seen this acceleration. And so I would seen this acceleration. And so I would say this just underscores how urgent say this just underscores how urgent say this just underscores how urgent attack exit is. [Music] [Music] When I see whiffle ball and I hear the When I see whiffle ball and I hear the When I see whiffle ball and I hear the piano, I know we're probably doing okay piano, I know we're probably doing okay piano, I know we're probably doing okay as a family. And when I turn on the news as a family. And when I turn on the news as a family. And when I turn on the news and see what Meta has been programming and see what Meta has been programming and see what Meta has been programming AI to engage in sensual conversations AI to engage in sensual conversations AI to engage in sensual conversations with children, I don't feel bad at all with children, I don't feel bad at all with children, I don't feel bad at all about keeping my children away from about keeping my children away from about keeping my children away from social media. Now, I wouldn't have my social media. Now, I wouldn't have my social media. Now, I wouldn't have my job if not for social media. I've job if not for social media. I've job if not for social media. I've learned a lot. I've made and maintained learned a lot. I've made and maintained learned a lot. I've made and maintained many friends. I would miss social media many friends. I would miss social media many friends. I would miss social media if it were gone. I'm glad I had that if it were gone. I'm glad I had that if it were gone. I'm glad I had that elder or geriatric millennial childhood elder or geriatric millennial childhood elder or geriatric millennial childhood without it. just a computer with without it. just a computer with without it. just a computer with internet contributed to enough problems internet contributed to enough problems internet contributed to enough problems as well as you know cable cable TV in my as well as you know cable cable TV in my as well as you know cable cable TV in my bedroom but that's a separate bedroom but that's a separate bedroom but that's a separate conversation if we as parents could see conversation if we as parents could see conversation if we as parents could see what our children see on social media we what our children see on social media we what our children see on social media we would not hesitate to keep them away and

would not hesitate to keep them away and would not hesitate to keep them away and that is why Clare Moral calls for a tech that is why Clare Moral calls for a tech that is why Clare Moral calls for a tech exit no smartphones social media tablets exit no smartphones social media tablets exit no smartphones social media tablets or video games during childhood or video games during childhood or video games during childhood is a fellow at the ethics and public is a fellow at the ethics and public is a fellow at the ethics and public policy center and director of his policy center and director of his policy center and director of his technology and Human flourishing technology and Human flourishing technology and Human flourishing project. You met her husband earlier project. You met her husband earlier project. You met her husband earlier this year on Gospelbound. As Caleb this year on Gospelbound. As Caleb this year on Gospelbound. As Caleb Murell wrote about the history of Murell wrote about the history of Murell wrote about the history of Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Now, in Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Now, in Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Now, in Cla's book, The Tech Exit, a practical Cla's book, The Tech Exit, a practical Cla's book, The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from guide to freeing kids and teens from guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones, Clare says, "We've reached smartphones, Clare says, "We've reached smartphones, Clare says, "We've reached a tipping point in the fight against a tipping point in the fight against a tipping point in the fight against letting smartphones take over childhood. letting smartphones take over childhood. letting smartphones take over childhood. The key is preserving something better, The key is preserving something better, The key is preserving something better, something more valuable, the chance for something more valuable, the chance for something more valuable, the chance for our children to contribute to their our children to contribute to their our children to contribute to their family and community, to enjoy the bonds family and community, to enjoy the bonds family and community, to enjoy the bonds of families and the boundaries of of families and the boundaries of of families and the boundaries of neighborhoods. Clare writes, quote, "It neighborhoods. Clare writes, quote, "It neighborhoods. Clare writes, quote, "It turns out that screens cost children turns out that screens cost children turns out that screens cost children more than just their time. They also more than just their time. They also more than just their time. They also cause them to lose their appetite for cause them to lose their appetite for cause them to lose their appetite for things of the real world." And in this things of the real world." And in this things of the real world." And in this book, she lays out a five-point plan. book, she lays out a five-point plan. book, she lays out a five-point plan. Number one, find other families. Number Number one, find other families. Number Number one, find other families. Number two, explain, educate, and exemplify. two, explain, educate, and exemplify. two, explain, educate, and exemplify. And number three, adopt alternatives.

And number three, adopt alternatives. And number three, adopt alternatives. Number four, set up digital digital Number four, set up digital digital Number four, set up digital digital accountability and family screen rules. accountability and family screen rules. accountability and family screen rules. And then number five, trade screens for And then number five, trade screens for And then number five, trade screens for real life responsibilities and pursuits. real life responsibilities and pursuits. real life responsibilities and pursuits. Claire joins me now on Gospel Bound to Claire joins me now on Gospel Bound to Claire joins me now on Gospel Bound to discuss this plan and much more. Claire, discuss this plan and much more. Claire, discuss this plan and much more. Claire, thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. >> Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. >> Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. >> Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. >> Let's just start simple. Why fight >> Let's just start simple. Why fight >> Let's just start simple. Why fight technology that feels inevitable? technology that feels inevitable? technology that feels inevitable? Yeah, that's a big question. Um, so I Yeah, that's a big question. Um, so I Yeah, that's a big question. Um, so I mean, as I go into in my book, I think mean, as I go into in my book, I think mean, as I go into in my book, I think we have been sold a myth by the tech we have been sold a myth by the tech we have been sold a myth by the tech companies that these digital companies that these digital companies that these digital technologies are going to benefit our technologies are going to benefit our technologies are going to benefit our children and that we can avoid any harms children and that we can avoid any harms children and that we can avoid any harms by enabling screen time limits and by enabling screen time limits and by enabling screen time limits and parental controls. And what I try to parental controls. And what I try to parental controls. And what I try to unpack is that these digital unpack is that these digital unpack is that these digital technologies, particularly smartphones technologies, particularly smartphones technologies, particularly smartphones and social media and interactive and social media and interactive and social media and interactive tablets, are addictive by design. So tablets, are addictive by design. So tablets, are addictive by design. So they're not they're not neutral and they they're not they're not neutral and they they're not they're not neutral and they have a bent towards addiction and have a bent towards addiction and have a bent towards addiction and especially to a vulnerable child's especially to a vulnerable child's especially to a vulnerable child's developing brain, they're extremely developing brain, they're extremely developing brain, they're extremely addictive. And so we've kind of I addictive. And so we've kind of I addictive. And so we've kind of I explained we've gotten the metaphor explained we've gotten the metaphor explained we've gotten the metaphor wrong as a culture that screens are more wrong as a culture that screens are more wrong as a culture that screens are more like sugar, you know, something to be like sugar, you know, something to be like sugar, you know, something to be enjoyed in moderation, but in fact enjoyed in moderation, but in fact enjoyed in moderation, but in fact they're much more like digital fentinel they're much more like digital fentinel they're much more like digital fentinel in the way that they act on children's in the way that they act on children's in the way that they act on children's developing brains. And so I wrote this developing brains. And so I wrote this developing brains. And so I wrote this book to push back against this sense of book to push back against this sense of book to push back against this sense of inevitability. I wanted to explain for inevitability. I wanted to explain for inevitability. I wanted to explain for parents that it's actually possible to parents that it's actually possible to parents that it's actually possible to give your children a smartphone free give your children a smartphone free give your children a smartphone free childhood. And in fact, more and more childhood. And in fact, more and more childhood. And in fact, more and more parents are doing this. And so I wanted parents are doing this. And so I wanted parents are doing this. And so I wanted to give parents an exit plan to say this

to give parents an exit plan to say this to give parents an exit plan to say this is actually how you can resist these is actually how you can resist these is actually how you can resist these technologies during childhood. They technologies during childhood. They technologies during childhood. They don't need to be inev inevitable and in don't need to be inev inevitable and in don't need to be inev inevitable and in fact they shouldn't be. Um, if we dig fact they shouldn't be. Um, if we dig fact they shouldn't be. Um, if we dig into the research, the impacts on into the research, the impacts on into the research, the impacts on children's brains, um, and just the children's brains, um, and just the children's brains, um, and just the effect this can have on them effect this can have on them effect this can have on them spiritually, emotionally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, physically, mentally, um, it really calls us to take mentally, um, it really calls us to take mentally, um, it really calls us to take the the approach I'm arguing for of a the the approach I'm arguing for of a the the approach I'm arguing for of a total opt out and then this is how to do total opt out and then this is how to do total opt out and then this is how to do it. it. it. >> Let's talk about that a little bit more >> Let's talk about that a little bit more >> Let's talk about that a little bit more because I think that's very because I think that's very because I think that's very counterintuitive, Clare, to the way most counterintuitive, Clare, to the way most counterintuitive, Clare, to the way most parents are thinking about this. They're parents are thinking about this. They're parents are thinking about this. They're imagining, like you said, it's sugar. imagining, like you said, it's sugar. imagining, like you said, it's sugar. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Yeah. Too much of it is is bad, but you >> Yeah. Too much of it is is bad, but you >> Yeah. Too much of it is is bad, but you don't want to be the parent going around don't want to be the parent going around don't want to be the parent going around at the birthday party saying, "Well, my at the birthday party saying, "Well, my at the birthday party saying, "Well, my kid's not going to have any cake." Okay. kid's not going to have any cake." Okay. kid's not going to have any cake." Okay. So, again, why are we talking here about So, again, why are we talking here about So, again, why are we talking here about just like the book says, a tech exit as just like the book says, a tech exit as just like the book says, a tech exit as opposed to just, you know, tech opposed to just, you know, tech opposed to just, you know, tech moderation or tech limit? moderation or tech limit? moderation or tech limit? >> Yeah. So, this gets down to a little bit >> Yeah. So, this gets down to a little bit >> Yeah. So, this gets down to a little bit of brain science. Um, as I've waited of brain science. Um, as I've waited of brain science. Um, as I've waited through the neuroscience research, what through the neuroscience research, what through the neuroscience research, what I found was that even a small amount of I found was that even a small amount of I found was that even a small amount of time on one of these addictive screen time on one of these addictive screen time on one of these addictive screen technologies can still be extremely technologies can still be extremely technologies can still be extremely compulsion inducing can actually change compulsion inducing can actually change compulsion inducing can actually change a child's personality and behavior even a child's personality and behavior even a child's personality and behavior even just a small amount of time. And it's just a small amount of time. And it's just a small amount of time. And it's because these devices release dopamine because these devices release dopamine because these devices release dopamine in the brain. This is a in the brain. This is a in the brain. This is a neurotransmitter. It gives us a burst of neurotransmitter. It gives us a burst of neurotransmitter. It gives us a burst of pleasure. But dopamine doesn't produce pleasure. But dopamine doesn't produce pleasure. But dopamine doesn't produce lasting satisfaction or fulfillment. it lasting satisfaction or fulfillment. it lasting satisfaction or fulfillment. it actually just creates craving or wanting actually just creates craving or wanting actually just creates craving or wanting to do that activity again. And so even to do that activity again. And so even to do that activity again. And so even if they're only on for 15 minutes, they

if they're only on for 15 minutes, they if they're only on for 15 minutes, they get this spike of dopamine and then what get this spike of dopamine and then what get this spike of dopamine and then what happens is as soon as they're off the happens is as soon as they're off the happens is as soon as they're off the device or the app, their brain goes into device or the app, their brain goes into device or the app, their brain goes into a dopamine deficit. It crashes and they a dopamine deficit. It crashes and they a dopamine deficit. It crashes and they have this strong craving to do it again. have this strong craving to do it again. have this strong craving to do it again. And so the time limit will never be And so the time limit will never be And so the time limit will never be enough. Even a strong amount of time or enough. Even a strong amount of time or enough. Even a strong amount of time or a small amount of time can create this a small amount of time can create this a small amount of time can create this strong craving for more. And I think strong craving for more. And I think strong craving for more. And I think that's where we've kind of gone astray that's where we've kind of gone astray that's where we've kind of gone astray is this idea of we set the time limits, is this idea of we set the time limits, is this idea of we set the time limits, they can have this daily screen time. they can have this daily screen time. they can have this daily screen time. And what the research really shows is And what the research really shows is And what the research really shows is even that small amount every day is even that small amount every day is even that small amount every day is really addictive to a child's brain and really addictive to a child's brain and really addictive to a child's brain and can change their personality. It's can change their personality. It's can change their personality. It's emotionally disregulating. It helps um emotionally disregulating. It helps um emotionally disregulating. It helps um it impedes the development of what it impedes the development of what it impedes the development of what parents are trying to do and help their parents are trying to do and help their parents are trying to do and help their children develop self-control and children develop self-control and children develop self-control and emotional regulation because it emotional regulation because it emotional regulation because it overstimulates the child's lyic system overstimulates the child's lyic system overstimulates the child's lyic system of the brain, the part that's of the brain, the part that's of the brain, the part that's responsible for emotional processing and responsible for emotional processing and responsible for emotional processing and this reward system where dopamine is this reward system where dopamine is this reward system where dopamine is released. And then the prefrontal released. And then the prefrontal released. And then the prefrontal cortex, the part of your brain cortex, the part of your brain cortex, the part of your brain responsible for your personality responsible for your personality responsible for your personality development, your executive functioning, development, your executive functioning, development, your executive functioning, your self-control, emotional regulation, your self-control, emotional regulation, your self-control, emotional regulation, is underdeveloped and underutilized. And is underdeveloped and underutilized. And is underdeveloped and underutilized. And so that can happen over time. There's so that can happen over time. There's so that can happen over time. There's this cumulative impact on the brain from this cumulative impact on the brain from this cumulative impact on the brain from even a small amount of time each day.

even a small amount of time each day. even a small amount of time each day. And so that's what I try to explain to And so that's what I try to explain to And so that's what I try to explain to parents is that it's not sugar is not parents is that it's not sugar is not parents is that it's not sugar is not the right analogy here because even a the right analogy here because even a the right analogy here because even a short amount of time can really um short amount of time can really um short amount of time can really um disrupt a child's natural brain disrupt a child's natural brain disrupt a child's natural brain development um and and really harm them development um and and really harm them development um and and really harm them in many ways physical, mental, in many ways physical, mental, in many ways physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. I don't doubt, emotional, and spiritual. I don't doubt, emotional, and spiritual. I don't doubt, Claire, that a lot of parents don't know Claire, that a lot of parents don't know Claire, that a lot of parents don't know the research that you're describing the research that you're describing the research that you're describing there. That's the whole point of your there. That's the whole point of your there. That's the whole point of your book. Um, do they do they not know what book. Um, do they do they not know what book. Um, do they do they not know what their kids are actually seeing on social their kids are actually seeing on social their kids are actually seeing on social media? media? media? >> Yes. This is the other sad reality is >> Yes. This is the other sad reality is >> Yes. This is the other sad reality is that I think we also have been told by that I think we also have been told by that I think we also have been told by the tech companies that the parental the tech companies that the parental the tech companies that the parental controls, a parent can control a child's controls, a parent can control a child's controls, a parent can control a child's online experience. So, you could keep online experience. So, you could keep online experience. So, you could keep them from the truly bad content or them from the truly bad content or them from the truly bad content or dangerous predators that are out there. dangerous predators that are out there. dangerous predators that are out there. But the parental controls are also a But the parental controls are also a But the parental controls are also a myth. Um because they don't give parents myth. Um because they don't give parents myth. Um because they don't give parents real control over what's happening real control over what's happening real control over what's happening inside the apps. Their algorithms are in inside the apps. Their algorithms are in inside the apps. Their algorithms are in control of a child's experience. And control of a child's experience. And control of a child's experience. And sadly, social media for kids looks very sadly, social media for kids looks very sadly, social media for kids looks very different than for adults. I had one mom different than for adults. I had one mom different than for adults. I had one mom say she really recommends that parents say she really recommends that parents say she really recommends that parents test drive social media, acting like a test drive social media, acting like a test drive social media, acting like a 13 or 14year-old on the app, friending 13 or 14year-old on the app, friending 13 or 14year-old on the app, friending their friends, and then see what comes their friends, and then see what comes their friends, and then see what comes up in in in the child's feed because it up in in in the child's feed because it up in in in the child's feed because it is full of really dangerous things. And is full of really dangerous things. And is full of really dangerous things. And these algorithms just go to work these algorithms just go to work these algorithms just go to work recommending things to kids. And kids recommending things to kids. And kids recommending things to kids. And kids are naturally curious. And if they just are naturally curious. And if they just are naturally curious. And if they just linger on a video or a post for a few linger on a video or a post for a few linger on a video or a post for a few seconds, and if that's sexual in nature seconds, and if that's sexual in nature seconds, and if that's sexual in nature or violent or even drugrelated, it or violent or even drugrelated, it or violent or even drugrelated, it quickly sends them down these dangerous

quickly sends them down these dangerous quickly sends them down these dangerous rabbit holes where then the feed puts rabbit holes where then the feed puts rabbit holes where then the feed puts more and more of that type of content more and more of that type of content more and more of that type of content into the app, into what they're seeing. into the app, into what they're seeing. into the app, into what they're seeing. And a parent truly has no control over And a parent truly has no control over And a parent truly has no control over that. They cannot determine what is in that. They cannot determine what is in that. They cannot determine what is in their child's feed. And most apps their child's feed. And most apps their child's feed. And most apps actually block access to third-party actually block access to third-party actually block access to third-party parental controls, so you can't even see parental controls, so you can't even see parental controls, so you can't even see into what your children are seeing or into what your children are seeing or into what your children are seeing or doing. And so parents are really flying doing. And so parents are really flying doing. And so parents are really flying blind when it comes to social media. blind when it comes to social media. blind when it comes to social media. >> I had um a friend comment this week that >> I had um a friend comment this week that >> I had um a friend comment this week that his daughter watched two people killed his daughter watched two people killed his daughter watched two people killed in real time on her phone this week and in real time on her phone this week and in real time on her phone this week and just said, "This is not normal." just said, "This is not normal." just said, "This is not normal." >> No. No. Children are being thrust into a >> No. No. Children are being thrust into a >> No. No. Children are being thrust into a very adult and very graphic world very adult and very graphic world very adult and very graphic world online. Um it is not unusual for online. Um it is not unusual for online. Um it is not unusual for children to come across beheading videos children to come across beheading videos children to come across beheading videos like extremely graphic and violent or like extremely graphic and violent or like extremely graphic and violent or sexual content. Um the average age of sexual content. Um the average age of sexual content. Um the average age of pornography exposure has steadily gone pornography exposure has steadily gone pornography exposure has steadily gone down as the age of first smartphone has down as the age of first smartphone has down as the age of first smartphone has gone down. Um and there's a correlation gone down. Um and there's a correlation gone down. Um and there's a correlation because it is all too easy for a child because it is all too easy for a child because it is all too easy for a child to accidentally stumble across to accidentally stumble across to accidentally stumble across pornography on a smartphone.

pornography on a smartphone. pornography on a smartphone. Oh. Oh man. I'm not sure how you'd even Oh. Oh man. I'm not sure how you'd even Oh. Oh man. I'm not sure how you'd even avoid it. avoid it. avoid it. >> No. It's It's impossible essentially. >> No. It's It's impossible essentially. >> No. It's It's impossible essentially. And I I think if nothing else, parents And I I think if nothing else, parents And I I think if nothing else, parents have got to be honest with themselves. have got to be honest with themselves. have got to be honest with themselves. If you're giving your child a If you're giving your child a If you're giving your child a smartphone, whatever age that's smartphone, whatever age that's smartphone, whatever age that's happening, whether that's 13, younger, happening, whether that's 13, younger, happening, whether that's 13, younger, 16, whatever it is, you need to 16, whatever it is, you need to 16, whatever it is, you need to understand that's what's happening. understand that's what's happening. understand that's what's happening. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um doesn't doesn't have not to the same >> Um doesn't doesn't have not to the same >> Um doesn't doesn't have not to the same extent always. is and it's not like extent always. is and it's not like extent always. is and it's not like there's nothing that anybody can do to there's nothing that anybody can do to there's nothing that anybody can do to prevent any of it, but that is simply prevent any of it, but that is simply prevent any of it, but that is simply part of the package. Um, and again, I part of the package. Um, and again, I part of the package. Um, and again, I think your book is extremely helpful in think your book is extremely helpful in think your book is extremely helpful in helping people to have a to dismiss a helping people to have a to dismiss a helping people to have a to dismiss a naive perspective naive perspective naive perspective >> both scientifically and then >> both scientifically and then >> both scientifically and then technologically of what's what's technologically of what's what's technologically of what's what's happening. Now, I want to look clear at happening. Now, I want to look clear at happening. Now, I want to look clear at maybe the most maybe the biggest maybe the most maybe the biggest maybe the most maybe the biggest implication for Christians. implication for Christians. implication for Christians. >> Yeah. Um the the book is I mean it >> Yeah. Um the the book is I mean it >> Yeah. Um the the book is I mean it reflects your faith in a lot of reflects your faith in a lot of reflects your faith in a lot of different ways but it's not explicitly different ways but it's not explicitly different ways but it's not explicitly argued necessarily um or or from your argued necessarily um or or from your argued necessarily um or or from your faith or um limited to people who share faith or um limited to people who share faith or um limited to people who share our our Christian convictions. But you our our Christian convictions. But you our our Christian convictions. But you say that phones have reoriented children say that phones have reoriented children say that phones have reoriented children away from aspiring to higher purpose away from aspiring to higher purpose away from aspiring to higher purpose >> toward getting stuck in >> toward getting stuck in >> toward getting stuck in self-involvement. They're being trained self-involvement. They're being trained self-involvement. They're being trained in endless consumption. So how does in endless consumption. So how does in endless consumption. So how does Christian shape shape your diagnosis of Christian shape shape your diagnosis of Christian shape shape your diagnosis of the problem as well as your solutions?

the problem as well as your solutions? the problem as well as your solutions? >> Yeah. So my diagnosis is that, you know, >> Yeah. So my diagnosis is that, you know, >> Yeah. So my diagnosis is that, you know, the problem is much deeper than kind of the problem is much deeper than kind of the problem is much deeper than kind of the teen mental health crisis that we're the teen mental health crisis that we're the teen mental health crisis that we're seeing or even the stunted kind of brain seeing or even the stunted kind of brain seeing or even the stunted kind of brain development of children. That there is development of children. That there is development of children. That there is actually a very deep spiritual element actually a very deep spiritual element actually a very deep spiritual element to this. And that is because the medium to this. And that is because the medium to this. And that is because the medium is the message. Like I was saying, the is the message. Like I was saying, the is the message. Like I was saying, the tech is not neutral. You might think, tech is not neutral. You might think, tech is not neutral. You might think, oh, but we'll just only make sure our oh, but we'll just only make sure our oh, but we'll just only make sure our kids see good content on social media or kids see good content on social media or kids see good content on social media or on a smartphone. But the medium itself on a smartphone. But the medium itself on a smartphone. But the medium itself sends the message that the whole world sends the message that the whole world sends the message that the whole world revolves around you. I mean, this is a revolves around you. I mean, this is a revolves around you. I mean, this is a device that is just built for your device that is just built for your device that is just built for your entertainment, your satisfaction and entertainment, your satisfaction and entertainment, your satisfaction and pleasure. And the same with social media pleasure. And the same with social media pleasure. And the same with social media that the algorithms actually learn you. that the algorithms actually learn you. that the algorithms actually learn you. They learn what you like, and they want They learn what you like, and they want They learn what you like, and they want to feed more of that entertainment and to feed more of that entertainment and to feed more of that entertainment and amusement into your feed. And amusement into your feed. And amusement into your feed. And particularly with social media, too, it particularly with social media, too, it particularly with social media, too, it encourages you to hold yourself out to encourages you to hold yourself out to encourages you to hold yourself out to the world for judgment. What do other the world for judgment. What do other the world for judgment. What do other people think about you, your pictures, people think about you, your pictures, people think about you, your pictures, your posts? Um, and so it's an your posts? Um, and so it's an your posts? Um, and so it's an incredibly self-absorbing technology. incredibly self-absorbing technology. incredibly self-absorbing technology. the smartphone and social media are both the smartphone and social media are both the smartphone and social media are both inherently self-focused and so they inherently self-focused and so they inherently self-focused and so they really cave a child inward on themselves really cave a child inward on themselves really cave a child inward on themselves and this is feeding into that anxiety and this is feeding into that anxiety and this is feeding into that anxiety that we're seeing. I mean if you are so that we're seeing. I mean if you are so that we're seeing. I mean if you are so consumed with what other people think consumed with what other people think consumed with what other people think about you then it is incredibly about you then it is incredibly about you then it is incredibly anxietyinducing and so I I try to anxietyinducing and so I I try to anxietyinducing and so I I try to contrast that and and that's why I would contrast that and and that's why I would contrast that and and that's why I would say that the solution actually goes say that the solution actually goes say that the solution actually goes beyond the tech exit. I'm I'm calling beyond the tech exit. I'm I'm calling beyond the tech exit. I'm I'm calling for the tech exit as a means to pursuing for the tech exit as a means to pursuing for the tech exit as a means to pursuing the true purpose of human life that we the true purpose of human life that we the true purpose of human life that we were all made for. And exiting from were all made for. And exiting from were all made for. And exiting from these digital technologies is not the these digital technologies is not the these digital technologies is not the end in itself. You know, that ultimate

end in itself. You know, that ultimate end in itself. You know, that ultimate end is finding our satisfaction in end is finding our satisfaction in end is finding our satisfaction in knowing and following and loving Jesus knowing and following and loving Jesus knowing and following and loving Jesus Christ. That that is what we want to be Christ. That that is what we want to be Christ. That that is what we want to be pointing our children towards is a pointing our children towards is a pointing our children towards is a relationship uh with the Lord Jesus and relationship uh with the Lord Jesus and relationship uh with the Lord Jesus and then living out the two great commands, then living out the two great commands, then living out the two great commands, loving God and loving others. And so we loving God and loving others. And so we loving God and loving others. And so we we actually want to take the screens we actually want to take the screens we actually want to take the screens away to lift our children's eyes up to away to lift our children's eyes up to away to lift our children's eyes up to behold the Lord and behold these greater behold the Lord and behold these greater behold the Lord and behold these greater things that we were actually created and things that we were actually created and things that we were actually created and made for. And and so I'm actually made for. And and so I'm actually made for. And and so I'm actually hopeful because I think Christians hopeful because I think Christians hopeful because I think Christians actually we have the answer. We know actually we have the answer. We know actually we have the answer. We know what the path of true human flourishing what the path of true human flourishing what the path of true human flourishing is. We know what the purpose of human is. We know what the purpose of human is. We know what the purpose of human life is for. And we know how we were life is for. And we know how we were life is for. And we know how we were made as humans in God's image. Um and so made as humans in God's image. Um and so made as humans in God's image. Um and so yes, this this this technology crisis is yes, this this this technology crisis is yes, this this this technology crisis is much deeper. there is this spiritual much deeper. there is this spiritual much deeper. there is this spiritual component that it is shaping and forming component that it is shaping and forming component that it is shaping and forming the affections and desires and vision of the affections and desires and vision of the affections and desires and vision of life for children in a direction that is life for children in a direction that is life for children in a direction that is not uh what Christian parents would want not uh what Christian parents would want not uh what Christian parents would want that is not helping them um learn to that is not helping them um learn to that is not helping them um learn to love and follow Jesus and so part of the love and follow Jesus and so part of the love and follow Jesus and so part of the solution is I'm arguing obviously for solution is I'm arguing obviously for solution is I'm arguing obviously for the tech exit but that is I I view it as the tech exit but that is I I view it as the tech exit but that is I I view it as a means to this greater end of trying to a means to this greater end of trying to a means to this greater end of trying to point our children to what we know is point our children to what we know is point our children to what we know is the true purpose of life knowing and the true purpose of life knowing and the true purpose of life knowing and loving God being satisfied in him and loving God being satisfied in him and loving God being satisfied in him and then having that love emanate outwards then having that love emanate outwards then having that love emanate outwards in loving others in our communities, our in loving others in our communities, our in loving others in our communities, our churches, um in our families.

churches, um in our families. churches, um in our families. >> That's so good. You're you're helping us >> That's so good. You're you're helping us >> That's so good. You're you're helping us to have the freedom from so that we can to have the freedom from so that we can to have the freedom from so that we can have the freedom for. have the freedom for. have the freedom for. >> Yes. um you do a great job of of laying >> Yes. um you do a great job of of laying >> Yes. um you do a great job of of laying out that you need that expulsive power out that you need that expulsive power out that you need that expulsive power of a new affection ultimately as well as of a new affection ultimately as well as of a new affection ultimately as well as Chalmer's uh would describe um when I'm Chalmer's uh would describe um when I'm Chalmer's uh would describe um when I'm often teaching the the development of of often teaching the the development of of often teaching the the development of of Western notions of the self and identity Western notions of the self and identity Western notions of the self and identity and things like that over the course of and things like that over the course of and things like that over the course of the last 500 years. I I progress from the last 500 years. I I progress from the last 500 years. I I progress from from Lutheran the thunderstorm through from Lutheran the thunderstorm through from Lutheran the thunderstorm through the revolutions and then I end with the the revolutions and then I end with the the revolutions and then I end with the posture of holding a smartphone posture of holding a smartphone posture of holding a smartphone >> and the curvature of your body, the >> and the curvature of your body, the >> and the curvature of your body, the curving inward on yourself to be able to curving inward on yourself to be able to curving inward on yourself to be able to look down at this device. And I just look down at this device. And I just look down at this device. And I just don't think that's accidental at all. don't think that's accidental at all. don't think that's accidental at all. It's very much the case that unlike It's very much the case that unlike It's very much the case that unlike other technologies, this is a this is other technologies, this is a this is other technologies, this is a this is not something that draws you into an not something that draws you into an not something that draws you into an experience with others so much, but one experience with others so much, but one experience with others so much, but one that caters to your custom that caters to your custom that caters to your custom >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> experience and it it reshapes and I >> experience and it it reshapes and I >> experience and it it reshapes and I think especially those as I mentioned in think especially those as I mentioned in think especially those as I mentioned in the introduction who did not grow up the introduction who did not grow up the introduction who did not grow up with anything else. It shapes their with anything else. It shapes their with anything else. It shapes their expectations about the world expectations about the world expectations about the world >> all the more necessary to help them to >> all the more necessary to help them to >> all the more necessary to help them to understand the world does not revolve understand the world does not revolve understand the world does not revolve around them that their desires need to around them that their desires need to around them that their desires need to be sanctified be sanctified be sanctified >> um for their for their own good before >> um for their for their own good before >> um for their for their own good before they even know what sort of they need to they even know what sort of they need to they even know what sort of they need to taste the good things so that they can taste the good things so that they can taste the good things so that they can then discern later on oh actually that then discern later on oh actually that then discern later on oh actually that >> that doesn't taste very good at all

>> that doesn't taste very good at all >> that doesn't taste very good at all >> um compared to what I've what I've been >> um compared to what I've what I've been >> um compared to what I've what I've been feasting on now Couple claire, a couple feasting on now Couple claire, a couple feasting on now Couple claire, a couple skeptical questions here which I know skeptical questions here which I know skeptical questions here which I know are the kind of push back that that are the kind of push back that that are the kind of push back that that you'll get and have gotten and that I you'll get and have gotten and that I you'll get and have gotten and that I get fairly often as well. Uh what good get fairly often as well. Uh what good get fairly often as well. Uh what good is exiting tech if none of the other is exiting tech if none of the other is exiting tech if none of the other families are following suit and in fact families are following suit and in fact families are following suit and in fact could actually be worse and even hurt could actually be worse and even hurt could actually be worse and even hurt our children if they're left out of our children if they're left out of our children if they're left out of everything? everything? everything? >> Yes. No, I get this question a lot, >> Yes. No, I get this question a lot, >> Yes. No, I get this question a lot, which is why, as you, you know, said in which is why, as you, you know, said in which is why, as you, you know, said in the introduction, one of my main the introduction, one of my main the introduction, one of my main principles is finding other families, principles is finding other families, principles is finding other families, and that doesn't mean that you convince and that doesn't mean that you convince and that doesn't mean that you convince everyone in your community to do this. everyone in your community to do this. everyone in your community to do this. But if you can just find a few other But if you can just find a few other But if you can just find a few other families who agree to keep their kids families who agree to keep their kids families who agree to keep their kids off smartphones, I mean, that's a huge off smartphones, I mean, that's a huge off smartphones, I mean, that's a huge difference. If your child has one or two difference. If your child has one or two difference. If your child has one or two other friends who are also not on that, other friends who are also not on that, other friends who are also not on that, you know, on the devices, then that is you know, on the devices, then that is you know, on the devices, then that is huge. But that may not be the case. And huge. But that may not be the case. And huge. But that may not be the case. And what I would say is that it's still your what I would say is that it's still your what I would say is that it's still your responsibility and your obligation to responsibility and your obligation to responsibility and your obligation to your child to do what you know is best your child to do what you know is best your child to do what you know is best for them as a parent. Um, you know, we for them as a parent. Um, you know, we for them as a parent. Um, you know, we don't as even especially as Christian don't as even especially as Christian don't as even especially as Christian parents, I think we're used to being parents, I think we're used to being parents, I think we're used to being countercultural in a lot of parenting countercultural in a lot of parenting countercultural in a lot of parenting decisions. And that is our job as a decisions. And that is our job as a decisions. And that is our job as a parents is to protect our children and parents is to protect our children and parents is to protect our children and and just and so we can't be pressured and just and so we can't be pressured and just and so we can't be pressured into just giving something to our child into just giving something to our child into just giving something to our child that we know is bad for them. And I do that we know is bad for them. And I do that we know is bad for them. And I do think friendship is a real concern. And think friendship is a real concern. And think friendship is a real concern. And so what I would encourage parents is as so what I would encourage parents is as so what I would encourage parents is as you're saying no to tech. If your child you're saying no to tech. If your child you're saying no to tech. If your child truly is the only other friend in their truly is the only other friend in their truly is the only other friend in their circles that doesn't have a smartphone, circles that doesn't have a smartphone, circles that doesn't have a smartphone, like you need to really work to help like you need to really work to help like you need to really work to help build your child's social life in the build your child's social life in the build your child's social life in the real world. Like maybe that means real world. Like maybe that means real world. Like maybe that means actually driving, you know, 20 minutes actually driving, you know, 20 minutes actually driving, you know, 20 minutes to bring your your child to a friend's to bring your your child to a friend's to bring your your child to a friend's house that also agrees with your tech

house that also agrees with your tech house that also agrees with your tech decisions if they're not in your decisions if they're not in your decisions if they're not in your immediate school or neighborhood, you immediate school or neighborhood, you immediate school or neighborhood, you know, finding other families through know, finding other families through know, finding other families through your church. And I'm just I'm so your church. And I'm just I'm so your church. And I'm just I'm so convinced now that most parents know the convinced now that most parents know the convinced now that most parents know the phones are bad and everyone feels phones are bad and everyone feels phones are bad and everyone feels pressured into them. And so being the pressured into them. And so being the pressured into them. And so being the parent to open the conversation and parent to open the conversation and parent to open the conversation and inviting other parents to consider this, inviting other parents to consider this, inviting other parents to consider this, I actually think a lot of parents would I actually think a lot of parents would I actually think a lot of parents would be receptive to doing it if they felt be receptive to doing it if they felt be receptive to doing it if they felt like they had an ally. And so I just I like they had an ally. And so I just I like they had an ally. And so I just I encourage parents in my book, you know, encourage parents in my book, you know, encourage parents in my book, you know, be the one to take the first step and be the one to take the first step and be the one to take the first step and and open this conversation with other and open this conversation with other and open this conversation with other parents in your class, um your child's parents in your class, um your child's parents in your class, um your child's class or your church or your class or your church or your class or your church or your neighborhood. The last thing I will say neighborhood. The last thing I will say neighborhood. The last thing I will say is uh one dad told to me that they is uh one dad told to me that they is uh one dad told to me that they actually found that their decisions actually found that their decisions actually found that their decisions around technology were extremely friend around technology were extremely friend around technology were extremely friend filtering. And by that he meant his kids filtering. And by that he meant his kids filtering. And by that he meant his kids found their real friends found their real friends found their real friends >> faster. And he said it's because if a >> faster. And he said it's because if a >> faster. And he said it's because if a child wouldn't talk to his kid because child wouldn't talk to his kid because child wouldn't talk to his kid because they weren't on the Snapchat app or they they weren't on the Snapchat app or they they weren't on the Snapchat app or they weren't in the group iMessage text weren't in the group iMessage text weren't in the group iMessage text because they didn't have a smartphone. because they didn't have a smartphone. because they didn't have a smartphone. He was like, "Well, that's not a real He was like, "Well, that's not a real He was like, "Well, that's not a real friend." And he explained like his kids friend." And he explained like his kids friend." And he explained like his kids had friends who had smartphones and they had friends who had smartphones and they had friends who had smartphones and they had some friends who didn't. But they had some friends who didn't. But they had some friends who didn't. But they were those kids that were friends with were those kids that were friends with were those kids that were friends with them who had the smartphones. They were them who had the smartphones. They were them who had the smartphones. They were actually genuine friends. They would actually genuine friends. They would actually genuine friends. They would include his children if they weren't on include his children if they weren't on include his children if they weren't on the apps. They'd say, "Hey, we're all the apps. They'd say, "Hey, we're all the apps. They'd say, "Hey, we're all getting together at, you know, Johnny's getting together at, you know, Johnny's getting together at, you know, Johnny's house to play basketball." And so they house to play basketball." And so they house to play basketball." And so they they went out of their way to they went out of their way to they went out of their way to accommodate their difference. And what accommodate their difference. And what accommodate their difference. And what he said to me is that's the sign of real he said to me is that's the sign of real he said to me is that's the sign of real friendship is that we accommodate each friendship is that we accommodate each friendship is that we accommodate each other's differences. And so he he found other's differences. And so he he found other's differences. And so he he found that their tech decisions actually even that their tech decisions actually even that their tech decisions actually even trained their kids of what to look for trained their kids of what to look for trained their kids of what to look for in a real friend. Um and so I I would I

in a real friend. Um and so I I would I in a real friend. Um and so I I would I guess my my short answer is like it's a guess my my short answer is like it's a guess my my short answer is like it's a real concern. Parents, we should do real concern. Parents, we should do real concern. Parents, we should do everything we can to help our children everything we can to help our children everything we can to help our children build real friendships in the real build real friendships in the real build real friendships in the real world. Um and recognize even our tech world. Um and recognize even our tech world. Um and recognize even our tech restrictions can help them discern what restrictions can help them discern what restrictions can help them discern what good friendship is. and then just not be good friendship is. and then just not be good friendship is. and then just not be afraid um to to do the right thing even afraid um to to do the right thing even afraid um to to do the right thing even if that does carry some costs um to our if that does carry some costs um to our if that does carry some costs um to our kids. Um that it is it's not worth the kids. Um that it is it's not worth the kids. Um that it is it's not worth the harms of handing them a smartphone that harms of handing them a smartphone that harms of handing them a smartphone that that you know that's not the answer. Uh that you know that's not the answer. Uh that you know that's not the answer. Uh we have to do what we know is best for we have to do what we know is best for we have to do what we know is best for our kids. our kids. our kids. >> Another thing Claire that I I teach in >> Another thing Claire that I I teach in >> Another thing Claire that I I teach in my classes is a a long-term thousands of my classes is a a long-term thousands of my classes is a a long-term thousands of year perspective on introducing techn year perspective on introducing techn year perspective on introducing techn technology new technologies and the way technology new technologies and the way technology new technologies and the way they change cultures. They don't always they change cultures. They don't always they change cultures. They don't always change cultures in expected ways. They change cultures in expected ways. They change cultures in expected ways. They don't always I mean usually they don't. don't always I mean usually they don't. don't always I mean usually they don't. They don't always change them in purely They don't always change them in purely They don't always change them in purely bad ways. There's usually a give there's bad ways. There's usually a give there's bad ways. There's usually a give there's usually some trade-off. The true usually some trade-off. The true usually some trade-off. The true discernment is figuring out what discernment is figuring out what discernment is figuring out what trade-offs are worth the the trade-offs are worth the the trade-offs are worth the the introduction of the technology. introduction of the technology. introduction of the technology. >> Um no skeptical question then. If thanks >> Um no skeptical question then. If thanks >> Um no skeptical question then. If thanks to smartphones we have fewer drunk to smartphones we have fewer drunk to smartphones we have fewer drunk drivers and fewer babies born out of drivers and fewer babies born out of drivers and fewer babies born out of wedlock, wedlock, wedlock, is that such a bad trade-off? Oh, yes. I is that such a bad trade-off? Oh, yes. I is that such a bad trade-off? Oh, yes. I do hear this push back a lot because I do hear this push back a lot because I do hear this push back a lot because I think as you're alluding to, studies now think as you're alluding to, studies now think as you're alluding to, studies now show that the rates of teen sex or drunk show that the rates of teen sex or drunk show that the rates of teen sex or drunk driving have really plummeted because driving have really plummeted because driving have really plummeted because kids are not going out and doing things kids are not going out and doing things kids are not going out and doing things with their friends. They're not being with their friends. They're not being with their friends. They're not being the risky teenagers they used to be the risky teenagers they used to be the risky teenagers they used to be because they're just on the smartphone.

because they're just on the smartphone. because they're just on the smartphone. I think um it's hard to say. Obviously, I think um it's hard to say. Obviously, I think um it's hard to say. Obviously, drunk driving and teen pregnancy um out drunk driving and teen pregnancy um out drunk driving and teen pregnancy um out of wedlock are not good things. And I of wedlock are not good things. And I of wedlock are not good things. And I think that there can be this illusion think that there can be this illusion think that there can be this illusion like oh we've traded this for this. I like oh we've traded this for this. I like oh we've traded this for this. I would say I think that that's it's it's would say I think that that's it's it's would say I think that that's it's it's just not a fair it's not it's not a good just not a fair it's not it's not a good just not a fair it's not it's not a good comparison to make. I think we need to comparison to make. I think we need to comparison to make. I think we need to think seriously and question is it think seriously and question is it think seriously and question is it really safe to just leave a kid at home really safe to just leave a kid at home really safe to just leave a kid at home with a smartphone um and not encouraging with a smartphone um and not encouraging with a smartphone um and not encouraging them to make friends. And so, of course, them to make friends. And so, of course, them to make friends. And so, of course, I think as Christian parents, we want to I think as Christian parents, we want to I think as Christian parents, we want to incentivize them to be going out into incentivize them to be going out into incentivize them to be going out into the real world. And that actually has the real world. And that actually has the real world. And that actually has less risks than the online world. less risks than the online world. less risks than the online world. Because here's the thing, the online Because here's the thing, the online Because here's the thing, the online world, it is incredibly easy for world, it is incredibly easy for world, it is incredibly easy for predators and dangerous things to gain predators and dangerous things to gain predators and dangerous things to gain access to our kids. Far more bad access to our kids. Far more bad access to our kids. Far more bad influences are our kids are able to come influences are our kids are able to come influences are our kids are able to come across in the online world than in the across in the online world than in the across in the online world than in the real world. And so it's really important real world. And so it's really important real world. And so it's really important to not think, oh, just if I leave my kid to not think, oh, just if I leave my kid to not think, oh, just if I leave my kid at home with the smartphone, I know at home with the smartphone, I know at home with the smartphone, I know they'll be safer. I think that's a they'll be safer. I think that's a they'll be safer. I think that's a complete myth. Um, in fact, I would say complete myth. Um, in fact, I would say complete myth. Um, in fact, I would say they're more safe just going out with they're more safe just going out with they're more safe just going out with their friends, maybe doing some stupid their friends, maybe doing some stupid their friends, maybe doing some stupid teenage things than they are um at home teenage things than they are um at home teenage things than they are um at home because I could even just recount the because I could even just recount the because I could even just recount the explosion in rates of sextortion cases explosion in rates of sextortion cases explosion in rates of sextortion cases um where um where um where >> uh a a predator poses as a as a person >> uh a a predator poses as a as a person >> uh a a predator poses as a as a person in their local community as a friend. um in their local community as a friend. um in their local community as a friend. um these have just exploded. They've these have just exploded. They've these have just exploded. They've increased by over 300% the last several increased by over 300% the last several increased by over 300% the last several years where teen boys are falling prey years where teen boys are falling prey years where teen boys are falling prey to these extortions to these extortions to these extortions >> and and committing suicide

>> and and committing suicide >> and and committing suicide >> and committing suicide. And the parents >> and committing suicide. And the parents >> and committing suicide. And the parents all say I had no idea I he was just in all say I had no idea I he was just in all say I had no idea I he was just in his room. I thought he was completely his room. I thought he was completely his room. I thought he was completely safe. And so I would say there is safe. And so I would say there is safe. And so I would say there is there's been in my opinion looking at there's been in my opinion looking at there's been in my opinion looking at the metrics way more harms to kids from the metrics way more harms to kids from the metrics way more harms to kids from the smartphones. Just even looking at the smartphones. Just even looking at the smartphones. Just even looking at the rates of teen suicide or depression, the rates of teen suicide or depression, the rates of teen suicide or depression, anxiety, eating disorders, self harm, anxiety, eating disorders, self harm, anxiety, eating disorders, self harm, these have all greatly increased because these have all greatly increased because these have all greatly increased because of kids turning to the virtual world of kids turning to the virtual world of kids turning to the virtual world instead of the real world. And so, uh, instead of the real world. And so, uh, instead of the real world. And so, uh, unfortunately, they are not safer unfortunately, they are not safer unfortunately, they are not safer sitting in their bedroom on a sitting in their bedroom on a sitting in their bedroom on a smartphone. I would say they are smartphone. I would say they are smartphone. I would say they are actually far more at risk of coming actually far more at risk of coming actually far more at risk of coming across dangerous content or being prayed across dangerous content or being prayed across dangerous content or being prayed upon by predators who now have 24/7 easy upon by predators who now have 24/7 easy upon by predators who now have 24/7 easy access to children um that they've just access to children um that they've just access to children um that they've just have never had before in human history. have never had before in human history. have never had before in human history. >> It's like Jonathan Height famously says, >> It's like Jonathan Height famously says, >> It's like Jonathan Height famously says, we protect our children in the real we protect our children in the real we protect our children in the real world way too much now and we protect world way too much now and we protect world way too much now and we protect them way too little in the online world. them way too little in the online world. them way too little in the online world. I think a lot of that just has to do I think a lot of that just has to do I think a lot of that just has to do with the relative generational with the relative generational with the relative generational ignorance.

ignorance. ignorance. >> Um, which is odd to me for parents >> Um, which is odd to me for parents >> Um, which is odd to me for parents because I don't know. because I don't know. because I don't know. >> I guess Claire, some of the problem is >> I guess Claire, some of the problem is >> I guess Claire, some of the problem is we don't know whether our experience is we don't know whether our experience is we don't know whether our experience is indicative of other people's indicative of other people's indicative of other people's >> or we're just not curious about whether >> or we're just not curious about whether >> or we're just not curious about whether our experience is part of a broader our experience is part of a broader our experience is part of a broader trend because you we mentioned the drunk trend because you we mentioned the drunk trend because you we mentioned the drunk driving, we mentioned the teen driving, we mentioned the teen driving, we mentioned the teen pregnancy. Of course related to that pregnancy. Of course related to that pregnancy. Of course related to that survey is just showing recently survey is just showing recently survey is just showing recently Americans just have way less sex period. Americans just have way less sex period. Americans just have way less sex period. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Now and and usually it's it's married >> Now and and usually it's it's married >> Now and and usually it's it's married couples have the most by far. It's very couples have the most by far. It's very couples have the most by far. It's very different from all the sitcoms that different from all the sitcoms that different from all the sitcoms that you've seen in the 1990s and things like you've seen in the 1990s and things like you've seen in the 1990s and things like that. Um but clearly the driving factor that. Um but clearly the driving factor that. Um but clearly the driving factor behind that is also smartphones. behind that is also smartphones. behind that is also smartphones. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> As well. So I wonder if people just >> As well. So I wonder if people just >> As well. So I wonder if people just don't even understand what change don't even understand what change don't even understand what change they're a part of, let alone understand they're a part of, let alone understand they're a part of, let alone understand what's going on with their children. Now what's going on with their children. Now what's going on with their children. Now also Claire know your your work ethics also Claire know your your work ethics also Claire know your your work ethics and public policy center technology and and public policy center technology and and public policy center technology and human flourishing project. You're human flourishing project. You're human flourishing project. You're engaging in public policy. Um you see engaging in public policy. Um you see engaging in public policy. Um you see public policy moving toward or away from public policy moving toward or away from public policy moving toward or away from your recommendations?

your recommendations? your recommendations? >> I see it largely moving toward. I would >> I see it largely moving toward. I would >> I see it largely moving toward. I would say just in the last several years I've say just in the last several years I've say just in the last several years I've been very encouraged by lots of policy been very encouraged by lots of policy been very encouraged by lots of policy changes um at the state level in changes um at the state level in changes um at the state level in particular. So just a couple to particular. So just a couple to particular. So just a couple to highlight would be um age verification highlight would be um age verification highlight would be um age verification for pornography websites laws. 24 states for pornography websites laws. 24 states for pornography websites laws. 24 states that's nearly half the country have that's nearly half the country have that's nearly half the country have passed these laws in just the last three passed these laws in just the last three passed these laws in just the last three years. And the Supreme Court in June of years. And the Supreme Court in June of years. And the Supreme Court in June of this past year just recently upheld this past year just recently upheld this past year just recently upheld Texas's law as constitutional, which was Texas's law as constitutional, which was Texas's law as constitutional, which was just a huge landmark case and victory. just a huge landmark case and victory. just a huge landmark case and victory. Um, and not just for age verification Um, and not just for age verification Um, and not just for age verification for porn sites laws, but but I think it for porn sites laws, but but I think it for porn sites laws, but but I think it has ramifications beyond that. Um, has ramifications beyond that. Um, has ramifications beyond that. Um, because the court decision said, you because the court decision said, you because the court decision said, you know, adults have no first amendment know, adults have no first amendment know, adults have no first amendment right to avoid age verification. Yes, right to avoid age verification. Yes, right to avoid age verification. Yes, they may have rights to access certain they may have rights to access certain they may have rights to access certain speech. We don't want kids accessing, speech. We don't want kids accessing, speech. We don't want kids accessing, but they don't have a right to avoid age but they don't have a right to avoid age but they don't have a right to avoid age verification. we have to have a way to verification. we have to have a way to verification. we have to have a way to be able to age gate certain things on be able to age gate certain things on be able to age gate certain things on the internet from kids. And so I'm the internet from kids. And so I'm the internet from kids. And so I'm hopeful this will pave the path forward hopeful this will pave the path forward hopeful this will pave the path forward as well for other maybe age related as well for other maybe age related as well for other maybe age related restrictions to for social media which restrictions to for social media which restrictions to for social media which is another solution I've pushed for. Um is another solution I've pushed for. Um is another solution I've pushed for. Um the other winning policy solution has the other winning policy solution has the other winning policy solution has been school phone bans. So um 18 states been school phone bans. So um 18 states been school phone bans. So um 18 states plus the District of Columbia now have plus the District of Columbia now have plus the District of Columbia now have belltobell phone bands. That means out belltobell phone bands. That means out belltobell phone bands. That means out of the entire school day, not just the of the entire school day, not just the of the entire school day, not just the classroom time, but also the social classroom time, but also the social classroom time, but also the social environment there. Now, kids are free of environment there. Now, kids are free of environment there. Now, kids are free of phones and social media during lunch, phones and social media during lunch, phones and social media during lunch, passing periods, recess, and this has passing periods, recess, and this has passing periods, recess, and this has just been incredibly effective in terms just been incredibly effective in terms just been incredibly effective in terms of just seeing student conversation, of just seeing student conversation, of just seeing student conversation, camaraderie, relationships really

camaraderie, relationships really camaraderie, relationships really flourish in the absence of the phone. flourish in the absence of the phone. flourish in the absence of the phone. Student discipline issues decrease. And Student discipline issues decrease. And Student discipline issues decrease. And then, of course, academic outcomes um then, of course, academic outcomes um then, of course, academic outcomes um have seen a a great boost from the phone have seen a a great boost from the phone have seen a a great boost from the phone bands. And so those are just two bands. And so those are just two bands. And so those are just two examples of solutions that have taken examples of solutions that have taken examples of solutions that have taken off really in just the last two to three off really in just the last two to three off really in just the last two to three years. Like a couple states were the years. Like a couple states were the years. Like a couple states were the leaders and they saw such success from leaders and they saw such success from leaders and they saw such success from these policies that then other states these policies that then other states these policies that then other states have adopted them. And and I'm hopeful have adopted them. And and I'm hopeful have adopted them. And and I'm hopeful that particularly at the federal level, that particularly at the federal level, that particularly at the federal level, we'll see an age verification for porn we'll see an age verification for porn we'll see an age verification for porn sites bill pass nationally. And then um sites bill pass nationally. And then um sites bill pass nationally. And then um I would love ideally to see Congress I would love ideally to see Congress I would love ideally to see Congress move towards age restricting social move towards age restricting social move towards age restricting social media out of childhood. I think we were media out of childhood. I think we were media out of childhood. I think we were talking about the difficulty individual talking about the difficulty individual talking about the difficulty individual parents feel in in that those decisions parents feel in in that those decisions parents feel in in that those decisions to opt out and so like this the country to opt out and so like this the country to opt out and so like this the country of Australia has recently um raised the of Australia has recently um raised the of Australia has recently um raised the age of social media to 16 because it age of social media to 16 because it age of social media to 16 because it really it it provides that collective really it it provides that collective really it it provides that collective solution that helps everyone where okay solution that helps everyone where okay solution that helps everyone where okay this is no longer a part of childhood this is no longer a part of childhood this is no longer a part of childhood and and I've made the analogy like this and and I've made the analogy like this and and I've made the analogy like this is very similar to alcohol or tobacco an is very similar to alcohol or tobacco an is very similar to alcohol or tobacco an a highly addictive substance to a a highly addictive substance to a a highly addictive substance to a child's brain we've we've age restricted child's brain we've we've age restricted child's brain we've we've age restricted those um and likewise technologies that those um and likewise technologies that those um and likewise technologies that are too powerful for children to operate are too powerful for children to operate are too powerful for children to operate like motor vehicles or firearms have like motor vehicles or firearms have like motor vehicles or firearms have also been age restricted. So I think also been age restricted. So I think also been age restricted. So I think there are helpful precedents in our laws there are helpful precedents in our laws there are helpful precedents in our laws to look to in the real world to think to look to in the real world to think to look to in the real world to think about some of these policy solutions to about some of these policy solutions to about some of these policy solutions to say should we just age restrict social say should we just age restrict social say should we just age restrict social media out of childhood and and I'm media out of childhood and and I'm media out of childhood and and I'm hopeful we're moving in that direction.

hopeful we're moving in that direction. hopeful we're moving in that direction. >> Well, that's very very well said. >> Well, that's very very well said. >> Well, that's very very well said. Alabama have passed both of those in the Alabama have passed both of those in the Alabama have passed both of those in the last year, the age verification on porn last year, the age verification on porn last year, the age verification on porn as well as the smartphone bans. So very as well as the smartphone bans. So very as well as the smartphone bans. So very grateful very grateful for those. Um, grateful very grateful for those. Um, grateful very grateful for those. Um, let's continue on this theme here and let's continue on this theme here and let's continue on this theme here and just do uh kind of rapid response here. just do uh kind of rapid response here. just do uh kind of rapid response here. Most important tech decision that could Most important tech decision that could Most important tech decision that could be made right now by it might just be be made right now by it might just be be made right now by it might just be what you said right there. Congress what you said right there. Congress what you said right there. Congress number one. What's the most important number one. What's the most important number one. What's the most important decision they could make right now? decision they could make right now? decision they could make right now? >> Um, age restrict social media, but I'd >> Um, age restrict social media, but I'd >> Um, age restrict social media, but I'd also add to that now to age restrict AI also add to that now to age restrict AI also add to that now to age restrict AI chat bots. I I don't think minors should chat bots. I I don't think minors should chat bots. I I don't think minors should have access to AI chat bots at all. have access to AI chat bots at all. have access to AI chat bots at all. >> Okay. So let's go into that because I >> Okay. So let's go into that because I >> Okay. So let's go into that because I was going to say how would you write was going to say how would you write was going to say how would you write this book now given what we've seen on this book now given what we've seen on this book now given what we've seen on AI. Um you know these books are written AI. Um you know these books are written AI. Um you know these books are written over the course of months and and years over the course of months and and years over the course of months and and years and I will say I'm well aware of it now. and I will say I'm well aware of it now. and I will say I'm well aware of it now. I don't know how many parents are are I don't know how many parents are are I don't know how many parents are are aware of it but you and I both know that aware of it but you and I both know that aware of it but you and I both know that when surveys have come back on what is when surveys have come back on what is when surveys have come back on what is the number one use of AI from teenagers, the number one use of AI from teenagers, the number one use of AI from teenagers, it's chat. I mean it's is chat bots it's chat. I mean it's is chat bots it's chat. I mean it's is chat bots therapy essentially. Yeah. Nearlyions therapy essentially. Yeah. Nearlyions therapy essentially. Yeah. Nearlyions nearly threearters of teens have used an nearly threearters of teens have used an nearly threearters of teens have used an AI chatbot at some point and over half AI chatbot at some point and over half AI chatbot at some point and over half say they do so on more than a weekly say they do so on more than a weekly say they do so on more than a weekly basis. I mean that's just one survey of basis. I mean that's just one survey of basis. I mean that's just one survey of teens. And um and I think so I would teens. And um and I think so I would teens. And um and I think so I would just say my book while it doesn't touch just say my book while it doesn't touch just say my book while it doesn't touch on AI it it addresses this in the sense on AI it it addresses this in the sense on AI it it addresses this in the sense that smartphones and social media were

that smartphones and social media were that smartphones and social media were already addictive. adding AI to them is already addictive. adding AI to them is already addictive. adding AI to them is only going to make this problem, I mean, only going to make this problem, I mean, only going to make this problem, I mean, exponentially worse. And so, I would exponentially worse. And so, I would exponentially worse. And so, I would just say I'm hopeful that the like that just say I'm hopeful that the like that just say I'm hopeful that the like that this book being out will actually help this book being out will actually help this book being out will actually help parents realize that the tech exit is parents realize that the tech exit is parents realize that the tech exit is more urgent than ever. Um, because the more urgent than ever. Um, because the more urgent than ever. Um, because the amount of AI chatbot apps a child can amount of AI chatbot apps a child can amount of AI chatbot apps a child can access on a smartphone um without a access on a smartphone um without a access on a smartphone um without a parent necessarily knowing what they're parent necessarily knowing what they're parent necessarily knowing what they're doing is extremely dangerous. And now doing is extremely dangerous. And now doing is extremely dangerous. And now all the social media platforms, Meta has all the social media platforms, Meta has all the social media platforms, Meta has integrated AI chat bots into their integrated AI chat bots into their integrated AI chat bots into their platforms. And so you may not even know. platforms. And so you may not even know. platforms. And so you may not even know. You think your child's just on social You think your child's just on social You think your child's just on social media. You have no idea they are media. You have no idea they are media. You have no idea they are engaging with incredibly sexual or engaging with incredibly sexual or engaging with incredibly sexual or dangerous content conversations with a dangerous content conversations with a dangerous content conversations with a chatbot um who's obviously not a real chatbot um who's obviously not a real chatbot um who's obviously not a real person. And so it's just I think it's person. And so it's just I think it's person. And so it's just I think it's kind of alarming the speed at which kind of alarming the speed at which kind of alarming the speed at which we've seen this acceleration. And so I we've seen this acceleration. And so I we've seen this acceleration. And so I would say this just underscores how would say this just underscores how would say this just underscores how urgent a tech exit is. Um particularly urgent a tech exit is. Um particularly urgent a tech exit is. Um particularly the smartphone. It is just a portal to the smartphone. It is just a portal to the smartphone. It is just a portal to hundreds and thousands of portals to the hundreds and thousands of portals to the hundreds and thousands of portals to the internet which now include dangerous AI internet which now include dangerous AI internet which now include dangerous AI chat bots. And so we should just really chat bots. And so we should just really chat bots. And so we should just really seriously think about that as parents seriously think about that as parents seriously think about that as parents that that the most important thing we that that the most important thing we that that the most important thing we can do is really just to not give a can do is really just to not give a can do is really just to not give a child a smartphone. And if they have child a smartphone. And if they have child a smartphone. And if they have one, it's never too late to reverse one, it's never too late to reverse one, it's never too late to reverse course. And I walk through that through course. And I walk through that through course. And I walk through that through in my book. um just it's never too late in my book. um just it's never too late in my book. um just it's never too late to take the smartphone away and to say to take the smartphone away and to say to take the smartphone away and to say you know listen we didn't know all this you know listen we didn't know all this you know listen we didn't know all this we we made a mistake and we want to do we we made a mistake and we want to do we we made a mistake and we want to do differently now differently now differently now >> one of the it's a major focus for us at >> one of the it's a major focus for us at >> one of the it's a major focus for us at the Gospel Coalition on AI and in terms the Gospel Coalition on AI and in terms the Gospel Coalition on AI and in terms of helping families helping churches

of helping families helping churches of helping families helping churches helping individuals discern better and helping individuals discern better and helping individuals discern better and worse uses of them worse uses of them worse uses of them >> what you described right there is >> what you described right there is >> what you described right there is definitely at the top of the list of the definitely at the top of the list of the definitely at the top of the list of the worst of the uses of it um we mentioned worst of the uses of it um we mentioned worst of the uses of it um we mentioned Earl the suicides that had followed uh Earl the suicides that had followed uh Earl the suicides that had followed uh predation especially sex exploitation of predation especially sex exploitation of predation especially sex exploitation of young men. young men. young men. >> Um but we also have examples of how the >> Um but we also have examples of how the >> Um but we also have examples of how the quote unquote alignment systems quote unquote alignment systems quote unquote alignment systems >> of AI uh so for people who don't know >> of AI uh so for people who don't know >> of AI uh so for people who don't know alignment is you still have to program alignment is you still have to program alignment is you still have to program AI. You have to tell AI what it can say AI. You have to tell AI what it can say AI. You have to tell AI what it can say and what it can't say. And so we have and what it can't say. And so we have and what it can't say. And so we have some basic ideas of as a co as a society some basic ideas of as a co as a society some basic ideas of as a co as a society we've we've concluded um not formally we've we've concluded um not formally we've we've concluded um not formally but informally that you shouldn't be but informally that you shouldn't be but informally that you shouldn't be able to ask AI how to pull off a able to ask AI how to pull off a able to ask AI how to pull off a terrorist attack and you shouldn't be terrorist attack and you shouldn't be terrorist attack and you shouldn't be able to ask AI how you should commit able to ask AI how you should commit able to ask AI how you should commit suicide. However, the way around this is suicide. However, the way around this is suicide. However, the way around this is that the um the chat bots are that the um the chat bots are that the um the chat bots are narcissistic. narcissistic. narcissistic. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh they are merely reflective and >> Uh they are merely reflective and >> Uh they are merely reflective and they're affirming. Mhm. they're affirming. Mhm. they're affirming. Mhm. >> So if a child and unfortunately we've >> So if a child and unfortunately we've >> So if a child and unfortunately we've seen tragic cases like this. If your seen tragic cases like this. If your seen tragic cases like this. If your child is is willing and interested in child is is willing and interested in child is is willing and interested in committing suicide, we have examples of committing suicide, we have examples of committing suicide, we have examples of AI affirming yes that looks like a good AI affirming yes that looks like a good AI affirming yes that looks like a good method to do it and empathizing.

method to do it and empathizing. method to do it and empathizing. I mean as a computer with actually no I mean as a computer with actually no I mean as a computer with actually no empa empathetic ability does empathizing empa empathetic ability does empathizing empa empathetic ability does empathizing saying and I affirm your decision saying and I affirm your decision saying and I affirm your decision >> in doing this as well >> in doing this as well >> in doing this as well >> with parents once again not having any >> with parents once again not having any >> with parents once again not having any idea. So I think Claire that the idea. So I think Claire that the idea. So I think Claire that the underlying principles are are the same. underlying principles are are the same. underlying principles are are the same. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> But extending even more so. I I think a >> But extending even more so. I I think a >> But extending even more so. I I think a lot of people don't understand the lot of people don't understand the lot of people don't understand the analogy here is that everything that analogy here is that everything that analogy here is that everything that happen with social media will happen on happen with social media will happen on happen with social media will happen on AI at a more accelerated rate. AI at a more accelerated rate. AI at a more accelerated rate. >> This is exactly right. Yep. >> This is exactly right. Yep. >> This is exactly right. Yep. >> And I don't I just I don't understand >> And I don't I just I don't understand >> And I don't I just I don't understand why people Well, talk about a little bit why people Well, talk about a little bit why people Well, talk about a little bit more of how that is because I don't more of how that is because I don't more of how that is because I don't think people understand what that means. think people understand what that means. think people understand what that means. >> Yeah. What it means is so I think the >> Yeah. What it means is so I think the >> Yeah. What it means is so I think the danger is is that it is because it is danger is is that it is because it is danger is is that it is because it is mimicking a real life person. So the mimicking a real life person. So the mimicking a real life person. So the chat bots I mean it is just computer chat bots I mean it is just computer chat bots I mean it is just computer code but a ch to a child it's a code but a ch to a child it's a code but a ch to a child it's a character it has a name it has a character it has a name it has a character it has a name it has a personality and children have a much personality and children have a much personality and children have a much harder time discerning between reality harder time discerning between reality harder time discerning between reality and fantasy and this is again preying on and fantasy and this is again preying on and fantasy and this is again preying on children's brain vulnerabilities and children's brain vulnerabilities and children's brain vulnerabilities and creating this friendship and then the creating this friendship and then the creating this friendship and then the child starts to actually form a bond of child starts to actually form a bond of child starts to actually form a bond of trust with the chatbot I mean far more trust with the chatbot I mean far more trust with the chatbot I mean far more dangerous than just scrolling a social dangerous than just scrolling a social dangerous than just scrolling a social media feed it is is creating this like media feed it is is creating this like media feed it is is creating this like ongoing relationship and as you ongoing relationship and as you ongoing relationship and as you mentioned the chat bots are mentioned the chat bots are mentioned the chat bots are narcissistic. They're very affirming. Um narcissistic. They're very affirming. Um narcissistic. They're very affirming. Um they're never going to tell the child they're never going to tell the child they're never going to tell the child they're wrong. And so in some ways they're wrong. And so in some ways they're wrong. And so in some ways they're like the perfect friend or uh they're like the perfect friend or uh they're like the perfect friend or uh you know the perfect boyfriend or you know the perfect boyfriend or you know the perfect boyfriend or girlfriend for teenagers who are

girlfriend for teenagers who are girlfriend for teenagers who are engaging in these kind of romantic engaging in these kind of romantic engaging in these kind of romantic relationships because they tell you relationships because they tell you relationships because they tell you everything that you want to hear. Um and everything that you want to hear. Um and everything that you want to hear. Um and they they really are and so much of they they really are and so much of they they really are and so much of technology does this. It is technology does this. It is technology does this. It is frictionless. It removes the barriers frictionless. It removes the barriers frictionless. It removes the barriers that we would experience in real life of that we would experience in real life of that we would experience in real life of having to navigate a real person's flaws having to navigate a real person's flaws having to navigate a real person's flaws or shortcomings or challenges, work or shortcomings or challenges, work or shortcomings or challenges, work through conflict and friendship. And and through conflict and friendship. And and through conflict and friendship. And and so it's an incredibly so it's an incredibly so it's an incredibly um just kind of scary technology in the um just kind of scary technology in the um just kind of scary technology in the sense that it it mimics a person, but it sense that it it mimics a person, but it sense that it it mimics a person, but it is not like a human relationship and it is not like a human relationship and it is not like a human relationship and it can really quickly lead children into can really quickly lead children into can really quickly lead children into doing extremely dangerous things. I doing extremely dangerous things. I doing extremely dangerous things. I mean, the horror stories that have come mean, the horror stories that have come mean, the horror stories that have come out about the kids committing suicide or out about the kids committing suicide or out about the kids committing suicide or just falling in love with a chatbot, um, just falling in love with a chatbot, um, just falling in love with a chatbot, um, they feel more bonded to the chatbot they feel more bonded to the chatbot they feel more bonded to the chatbot than to people in the real world. And than to people in the real world. And than to people in the real world. And so, it's incredibly disemboding, um, and so, it's incredibly disemboding, um, and so, it's incredibly disemboding, um, and just really, uh, just morphing a child's just really, uh, just morphing a child's just really, uh, just morphing a child's worldview in a very just very dangerous, worldview in a very just very dangerous, worldview in a very just very dangerous, inhumane way. And very similar to what inhumane way. And very similar to what inhumane way. And very similar to what we saw in pornography, removes the we saw in pornography, removes the we saw in pornography, removes the frictions of relationship when it comes frictions of relationship when it comes frictions of relationship when it comes to sex. Um, so we covered Congress.

to sex. Um, so we covered Congress. to sex. Um, so we covered Congress. >> We just kind of recap here. Num, what >> We just kind of recap here. Num, what >> We just kind of recap here. Num, what number one most important decision could number one most important decision could number one most important decision could be made right now by your family? be made right now by your family? be made right now by your family? >> Okay. I think I kind of just said it >> Okay. I think I kind of just said it >> Okay. I think I kind of just said it like I would just say get rid of the like I would just say get rid of the like I would just say get rid of the smartphones. Um, if I had to pick one smartphones. Um, if I had to pick one smartphones. Um, if I had to pick one thing, it's the smartphone because that thing, it's the smartphone because that thing, it's the smartphone because that is the that's the portal to everything. is the that's the portal to everything. is the that's the portal to everything. It's the portal to social media. Now It's the portal to social media. Now It's the portal to social media. Now it's the portal to chat bots, the portal it's the portal to chat bots, the portal it's the portal to chat bots, the portal to the internet. That is just too to the internet. That is just too to the internet. That is just too difficult for a parent to effectively difficult for a parent to effectively difficult for a parent to effectively oversee. So if you can do one thing, no oversee. So if you can do one thing, no oversee. So if you can do one thing, no smartphones. smartphones. smartphones. >> Are you in all the way through 18 or 16? >> Are you in all the way through 18 or 16? >> Are you in all the way through 18 or 16? Where do you fall on that? Where do you fall on that? Where do you fall on that? >> I think it's really important to hold >> I think it's really important to hold >> I think it's really important to hold out the ideal of 18. Um and that's out the ideal of 18. Um and that's out the ideal of 18. Um and that's that's just like a marker for adulthood. that's just like a marker for adulthood. that's just like a marker for adulthood. Um we also know the human brain isn't Um we also know the human brain isn't Um we also know the human brain isn't fully developed until 25. And so I mean fully developed until 25. And so I mean fully developed until 25. And so I mean you could even encourage your children you could even encourage your children you could even encourage your children to keep going through college without to keep going through college without to keep going through college without smartphones as some of the families I smartphones as some of the families I smartphones as some of the families I interviewed in my book do. I just I interviewed in my book do. I just I interviewed in my book do. I just I think the longer we can delay the better think the longer we can delay the better think the longer we can delay the better because you're laying the foundation of because you're laying the foundation of because you're laying the foundation of their habits, their life habits. Um and their habits, their life habits. Um and their habits, their life habits. Um and you want that to be these habits formed you want that to be these habits formed you want that to be these habits formed without dependence on a smartphone. And without dependence on a smartphone. And without dependence on a smartphone. And that means then when they do use a that means then when they do use a that means then when they do use a smartphone as an adult, they're not smartphone as an adult, they're not smartphone as an adult, they're not going to have the same dependence or going to have the same dependence or going to have the same dependence or pull or addiction towards it as they pull or addiction towards it as they pull or addiction towards it as they would if they'd grown up on it. And so, would if they'd grown up on it. And so, would if they'd grown up on it. And so, um, I would say 16 is okay. I would um, I would say 16 is okay. I would um, I would say 16 is okay. I would really say, you know, 18 is even more really say, you know, 18 is even more really say, you know, 18 is even more ideal. And I also think we just have to ideal. And I also think we just have to ideal. And I also think we just have to kind of lose this mile marker of uh the kind of lose this mile marker of uh the kind of lose this mile marker of uh the smartphone now becoming this kind of smartphone now becoming this kind of smartphone now becoming this kind of sign of adulthood. It really used to be sign of adulthood. It really used to be sign of adulthood. It really used to be the driver's license. I think we we the driver's license. I think we we the driver's license. I think we we really need to just step back as society really need to just step back as society really need to just step back as society and kind of reject this premise of and kind of reject this premise of and kind of reject this premise of inevitability of the smartphone. I'm an

inevitability of the smartphone. I'm an inevitability of the smartphone. I'm an adult. I don't have a smartphone there. adult. I don't have a smartphone there. adult. I don't have a smartphone there. And it's because there are better And it's because there are better And it's because there are better alternative options available now than alternative options available now than alternative options available now than there were even 3 years ago. Um that there were even 3 years ago. Um that there were even 3 years ago. Um that allow me to have tools to navigate the allow me to have tools to navigate the allow me to have tools to navigate the world like GPS and and a and a camera world like GPS and and a and a camera world like GPS and and a and a camera and Uber and Venmo, but without the and Uber and Venmo, but without the and Uber and Venmo, but without the internet, social media apps or other internet, social media apps or other internet, social media apps or other addictive apps on the phone. So, I I addictive apps on the phone. So, I I addictive apps on the phone. So, I I want to kind of encourage parents to not want to kind of encourage parents to not want to kind of encourage parents to not accept that this is at some point my accept that this is at some point my accept that this is at some point my child will get one because I think then child will get one because I think then child will get one because I think then that just so easily creeps back into that just so easily creeps back into that just so easily creeps back into childhood, but actually to just question childhood, but actually to just question childhood, but actually to just question the premise. Um, do they actually need the premise. Um, do they actually need the premise. Um, do they actually need one? And um, and then just to to just one? And um, and then just to to just one? And um, and then just to to just try to think about extending that as far try to think about extending that as far try to think about extending that as far back as possible so that they're able to back as possible so that they're able to back as possible so that they're able to form as many habits without it. form as many habits without it. form as many habits without it. >> That's helpful. I mean, in my mind, I >> That's helpful. I mean, in my mind, I >> That's helpful. I mean, in my mind, I had just associated driving essentially had just associated driving essentially had just associated driving essentially with smartphones, but I didn't realize with smartphones, but I didn't realize with smartphones, but I didn't realize how many things you could do now without how many things you could do now without how many things you could do now without that. So, I think it's another thing for that. So, I think it's another thing for that. So, I think it's another thing for families to know. families to know. families to know. >> I think it's actually important, and >> I think it's actually important, and >> I think it's actually important, and this is maybe one of the biggest gaps this is maybe one of the biggest gaps this is maybe one of the biggest gaps for parents of information is that now for parents of information is that now for parents of information is that now there are phones like the Bark phone, there are phones like the Bark phone, there are phones like the Bark phone, the Gab phone, the Pinwheel phone. I the Gab phone, the Pinwheel phone. I the Gab phone, the Pinwheel phone. I have personally the Wise phone um that have personally the Wise phone um that have personally the Wise phone um that allow you to use GPS for driving. I allow you to use GPS for driving. I allow you to use GPS for driving. I understand that's important for a lot of understand that's important for a lot of understand that's important for a lot of parents and to have a tool for parents and to have a tool for parents and to have a tool for communication with their child when communication with their child when communication with their child when they're driving. Um, but it doesn't have they're driving. Um, but it doesn't have they're driving. Um, but it doesn't have social media apps or an internet browser social media apps or an internet browser social media apps or an internet browser um or access to any kind of addictive um or access to any kind of addictive um or access to any kind of addictive app. So, no chat bots, no games, nothing app. So, no chat bots, no games, nothing app. So, no chat bots, no games, nothing that would be dangerous truly just that would be dangerous truly just that would be dangerous truly just tools. And so, I really encourage

tools. And so, I really encourage tools. And so, I really encourage parents to explore those alternatives. parents to explore those alternatives. parents to explore those alternatives. Don't opt for a smartphone. I mean, Don't opt for a smartphone. I mean, Don't opt for a smartphone. I mean, delay the first cell phone as long as delay the first cell phone as long as delay the first cell phone as long as possible. I think delaying a cell phone possible. I think delaying a cell phone possible. I think delaying a cell phone till driving makes a lot of sense. And till driving makes a lot of sense. And till driving makes a lot of sense. And then again opting for an alternative to then again opting for an alternative to then again opting for an alternative to the smartphone when you do get a first the smartphone when you do get a first the smartphone when you do get a first phone for your child. phone for your child. phone for your child. >> That's very helpful. Um and the more >> That's very helpful. Um and the more >> That's very helpful. Um and the more people who make these decisions, the people who make these decisions, the people who make these decisions, the better the technology will be because better the technology will be because better the technology will be because the market will shift. the market will shift. the market will shift. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> To be able to provide it. Um >> To be able to provide it. Um >> To be able to provide it. Um >> so that collective action principle as >> so that collective action principle as >> so that collective action principle as well. Okay. Finally, let's come back. A well. Okay. Finally, let's come back. A well. Okay. Finally, let's come back. A lot of people don't think about this lot of people don't think about this lot of people don't think about this category. It's not the focus of your category. It's not the focus of your category. It's not the focus of your book, but I know you thought about it, book, but I know you thought about it, book, but I know you thought about it, I'm sure. What about your church? I'm sure. What about your church? I'm sure. What about your church? >> Yes. Um, I would say I mean since my >> Yes. Um, I would say I mean since my >> Yes. Um, I would say I mean since my book is focused on kids, the most book is focused on kids, the most book is focused on kids, the most important thing you can do is create a important thing you can do is create a important thing you can do is create a youth group culture at your church that youth group culture at your church that youth group culture at your church that is smartphone social media 3. Kind of is smartphone social media 3. Kind of is smartphone social media 3. Kind of like the school cell phone bands. I like the school cell phone bands. I like the school cell phone bands. I would encourage youth groups to say, would encourage youth groups to say, would encourage youth groups to say, "Hey, we don't do smartphones at youth "Hey, we don't do smartphones at youth "Hey, we don't do smartphones at youth group." You might as well leave it at group." You might as well leave it at group." You might as well leave it at home. Otherwise, when you come, you can home. Otherwise, when you come, you can home. Otherwise, when you come, you can hand in your phones here and you'll get hand in your phones here and you'll get hand in your phones here and you'll get them after youth group because that them after youth group because that them after youth group because that would actually protect a space for those would actually protect a space for those would actually protect a space for those teens to I mean, first of all, listen to teens to I mean, first of all, listen to teens to I mean, first of all, listen to the teaching um while they're at youth the teaching um while they're at youth the teaching um while they're at youth group, but then also to have that true group, but then also to have that true group, but then also to have that true fellowship um and real life relationship fellowship um and real life relationship fellowship um and real life relationship where they're not being distracted away where they're not being distracted away where they're not being distracted away on their phones. And then also so that on their phones. And then also so that on their phones. And then also so that Christian parents know when they send Christian parents know when they send Christian parents know when they send their kid to youth group that at youth their kid to youth group that at youth their kid to youth group that at youth group they're not going to be group they're not going to be group they're not going to be accidentally exposed to something on accidentally exposed to something on accidentally exposed to something on someone else's smartphone. Um, and so I someone else's smartphone. Um, and so I someone else's smartphone. Um, and so I think it's important that Christian think it's important that Christian think it's important that Christian parents feel like youth group in their parents feel like youth group in their parents feel like youth group in their church is a safe place to send their church is a safe place to send their church is a safe place to send their kids where they're not going to be kids where they're not going to be kids where they're not going to be potentially exposed to dangers through

potentially exposed to dangers through potentially exposed to dangers through smartphones or social media. So I would smartphones or social media. So I would smartphones or social media. So I would I would really encourage youth groups to I would really encourage youth groups to I would really encourage youth groups to create a culture that normalizes like no create a culture that normalizes like no create a culture that normalizes like no phones and we're actually going to focus phones and we're actually going to focus phones and we're actually going to focus on real life relationships while we're on real life relationships while we're on real life relationships while we're here. here. here. >> Yeah, I love that. And especially I >> Yeah, I love that. And especially I >> Yeah, I love that. And especially I think that should go without saying a think that should go without saying a think that should go without saying a lot of youth groups involve camps, a lot lot of youth groups involve camps, a lot lot of youth groups involve camps, a lot of youth groups involve overnights, of youth groups involve overnights, of youth groups involve overnights, lockins, things like that. lockins, things like that. lockins, things like that. >> Smartphones and those events are total >> Smartphones and those events are total >> Smartphones and those events are total disasters. That is disasters. That is disasters. That is >> you only hear bad stories when there are >> you only hear bad stories when there are >> you only hear bad stories when there are when there's access to phones. when there's access to phones. when there's access to phones. >> Only bad stories there. Absolutely. Um >> Only bad stories there. Absolutely. Um >> Only bad stories there. Absolutely. Um okay, got a few more uh quick questions okay, got a few more uh quick questions okay, got a few more uh quick questions here. We're talking with Claire Morurell here. We're talking with Claire Morurell here. We're talking with Claire Morurell again about the Tech Exit, a practical again about the Tech Exit, a practical again about the Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from guide to freeing kids and teens from guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. Um, we may have covered smartphones. Um, we may have covered smartphones. Um, we may have covered this already, so that's why I'm thinking this already, so that's why I'm thinking this already, so that's why I'm thinking maybe this will be quick. Most common maybe this will be quick. Most common maybe this will be quick. Most common push back you get in your personal life push back you get in your personal life push back you get in your personal life as well as in response to the book and as well as in response to the book and as well as in response to the book and some of the interviews and conversations some of the interviews and conversations some of the interviews and conversations you have. Yeah, I think the the the you have. Yeah, I think the the the you have. Yeah, I think the the the concern about friends. I think also the concern about friends. I think also the concern about friends. I think also the the push back I get is well then how the push back I get is well then how the push back I get is well then how will my child be able to function in will my child be able to function in will my child be able to function in this digital age if they don't know the this digital age if they don't know the this digital age if they don't know the technology or how will they um you know technology or how will they um you know technology or how will they um you know be able to actually use technology be able to actually use technology be able to actually use technology wisely as an adult if they're not able wisely as an adult if they're not able wisely as an adult if they're not able to have me train them on it. And I would to have me train them on it. And I would to have me train them on it. And I would just say both of those really turn out just say both of those really turn out just say both of those really turn out to be myths um that it's not about to be myths um that it's not about to be myths um that it's not about knowing how to operate a smartphone or knowing how to operate a smartphone or knowing how to operate a smartphone or social media to be successful in this social media to be successful in this social media to be successful in this digital age. A lot of the families I digital age. A lot of the families I digital age. A lot of the families I interviewed allowed their children to interviewed allowed their children to interviewed allowed their children to learn how to use a computer in a public learn how to use a computer in a public learn how to use a computer in a public place with purpose, learning how to code place with purpose, learning how to code place with purpose, learning how to code or use Microsoft Excel, like actually

or use Microsoft Excel, like actually or use Microsoft Excel, like actually developing hardcore tech skills that developing hardcore tech skills that developing hardcore tech skills that will prepare them for the workplace. Um, will prepare them for the workplace. Um, will prepare them for the workplace. Um, but learning how to scroll on a but learning how to scroll on a but learning how to scroll on a smartphone is just teaching you how to smartphone is just teaching you how to smartphone is just teaching you how to be constantly entertained and amused. be constantly entertained and amused. be constantly entertained and amused. It's not actually giving you real tech It's not actually giving you real tech It's not actually giving you real tech skills. And then on the principle, oh, I skills. And then on the principle, oh, I skills. And then on the principle, oh, I need to train them on it now so that need to train them on it now so that need to train them on it now so that they use it maturely as an adult. As I they use it maturely as an adult. As I they use it maturely as an adult. As I was alluding to earlier, these kids who was alluding to earlier, these kids who was alluding to earlier, these kids who grew up without them don't have habits grew up without them don't have habits grew up without them don't have habits of dependence on the smartphone. And so of dependence on the smartphone. And so of dependence on the smartphone. And so even when they got a smartphone in even when they got a smartphone in even when they got a smartphone in college, they didn't have the same draw college, they didn't have the same draw college, they didn't have the same draw or pull to it that they were actually or pull to it that they were actually or pull to it that they were actually able to use it more wisely and maturely able to use it more wisely and maturely able to use it more wisely and maturely because they hadn't developed the the because they hadn't developed the the because they hadn't developed the the being used to checking it all the time. being used to checking it all the time. being used to checking it all the time. And so I think what's more important is And so I think what's more important is And so I think what's more important is is forming kids core habits, helping is forming kids core habits, helping is forming kids core habits, helping them develop self-control, which is them develop self-control, which is them develop self-control, which is stunted by handing them screens stunted by handing them screens stunted by handing them screens constantly. And that will prepare them constantly. And that will prepare them constantly. And that will prepare them to operate it maturely as adults as well to operate it maturely as adults as well to operate it maturely as adults as well as parents modeling for them how we'd as parents modeling for them how we'd as parents modeling for them how we'd want them to use that. And that's how we want them to use that. And that's how we want them to use that. And that's how we approach any other powerful technology approach any other powerful technology approach any other powerful technology or substance is we don't say, "Oh, we or substance is we don't say, "Oh, we or substance is we don't say, "Oh, we want to train you on a healthy use, so want to train you on a healthy use, so want to train you on a healthy use, so we'll just give it to you young, like we'll just give it to you young, like we'll just give it to you young, like driving a car or allowing a child to driving a car or allowing a child to driving a car or allowing a child to drink alcohol." Instead, we try to model drink alcohol." Instead, we try to model drink alcohol." Instead, we try to model healthy uses of those things, have healthy uses of those things, have healthy uses of those things, have conversations around it to train them conversations around it to train them conversations around it to train them for it, but there's an age of maturity for it, but there's an age of maturity for it, but there's an age of maturity we recognize for them actually being we recognize for them actually being we recognize for them actually being able to use it for themselves.

able to use it for themselves. able to use it for themselves. >> Another quick question here, Claire. Um, >> Another quick question here, Claire. Um, >> Another quick question here, Claire. Um, I know this comes this is a it's a real I know this comes this is a it's a real I know this comes this is a it's a real concern. It's a scary concern and it's concern. It's a scary concern and it's concern. It's a scary concern and it's one that is is often deployed as a one that is is often deployed as a one that is is often deployed as a defeater to the school bands. defeater to the school bands. defeater to the school bands. >> I'm sure you know where I'm going with >> I'm sure you know where I'm going with >> I'm sure you know where I'm going with this. Y this. Y this. Y >> parents need non-stop access to their >> parents need non-stop access to their >> parents need non-stop access to their children due to the possibility of a children due to the possibility of a children due to the possibility of a school shooting. school shooting. school shooting. >> How do you respond? >> How do you respond? >> How do you respond? >> Yeah, so I explained in the book that um >> Yeah, so I explained in the book that um >> Yeah, so I explained in the book that um school safety experts actually say kids school safety experts actually say kids school safety experts actually say kids are more safe not having access to are more safe not having access to are more safe not having access to smartphones in that you know absolute smartphones in that you know absolute smartphones in that you know absolute worst case scenario horrific event that worst case scenario horrific event that worst case scenario horrific event that no parent I mean we it's it's sad that no parent I mean we it's it's sad that no parent I mean we it's it's sad that we actually have to think about that. we actually have to think about that. we actually have to think about that. Um, and I would just say that their Um, and I would just say that their Um, and I would just say that their advice is that kids having access to advice is that kids having access to advice is that kids having access to phones can actually be more dangerous in phones can actually be more dangerous in phones can actually be more dangerous in an active shooter situation or other an active shooter situation or other an active shooter situation or other just emergency situation in the school just emergency situation in the school just emergency situation in the school because kids are distracted then they're because kids are distracted then they're because kids are distracted then they're not listening to first responders not listening to first responders not listening to first responders instructions. Phones that can be set off instructions. Phones that can be set off instructions. Phones that can be set off or ping can actually make it easier for or ping can actually make it easier for or ping can actually make it easier for a shooter to identify where people are a shooter to identify where people are a shooter to identify where people are or if they or if they or if they >> draw attention attention to you if >> draw attention attention to you if >> draw attention attention to you if you're hiding.

you're hiding. you're hiding. >> Kids are kids I mean I just want to say >> Kids are kids I mean I just want to say >> Kids are kids I mean I just want to say they just they don't always understand they just they don't always understand they just they don't always understand these things. they might access social these things. they might access social these things. they might access social media and go on social media and they're media and go on social media and they're media and go on social media and they're on social media on their phone during on social media on their phone during on social media on their phone during this event and that makes it easier for this event and that makes it easier for this event and that makes it easier for um a shooter to identify where students um a shooter to identify where students um a shooter to identify where students are. And so there's so many ways that are. And so there's so many ways that are. And so there's so many ways that the phones actually make that situation the phones actually make that situation the phones actually make that situation more dangerous um than if a child more dangerous um than if a child more dangerous um than if a child doesn't have a phone. They listen to the doesn't have a phone. They listen to the doesn't have a phone. They listen to the instructions of their teacher to the the instructions of their teacher to the the instructions of their teacher to the the emergency personnel involved. And we emergency personnel involved. And we emergency personnel involved. And we should just remember like teachers have should just remember like teachers have should just remember like teachers have cell phones on them. There are people in cell phones on them. There are people in cell phones on them. There are people in the building that have phones if it's a the building that have phones if it's a the building that have phones if it's a true emergency. every child having a true emergency. every child having a true emergency. every child having a phone actually makes that type of phone actually makes that type of phone actually makes that type of situation much more dangerous. And of situation much more dangerous. And of situation much more dangerous. And of course, what we all want is to keep our course, what we all want is to keep our course, what we all want is to keep our children safe, but this the smartphone children safe, but this the smartphone children safe, but this the smartphone bands actually help keep children safer. bands actually help keep children safer. bands actually help keep children safer. And it's important to um for parents to And it's important to um for parents to And it's important to um for parents to understand that message. understand that message. understand that message. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, that was something that really stood that was something that really stood that was something that really stood out. I hadn't really thought that out. I hadn't really thought that out. I hadn't really thought that through. My kids aren't old enough yet through. My kids aren't old enough yet through. My kids aren't old enough yet to um to be going through that, but it to um to be going through that, but it to um to be going through that, but it felt like a really important topic. I felt like a really important topic. I felt like a really important topic. I wanted to make sure we covered it here wanted to make sure we covered it here wanted to make sure we covered it here as well. Sure. You as well. Sure. You as well. Sure. You >> mentioned Australia earlier. Other >> mentioned Australia earlier. Other >> mentioned Australia earlier. Other countries that follow your countries that follow your countries that follow your recommendations better than at least the recommendations better than at least the recommendations better than at least the United States does so far. You think United States does so far. You think United States does so far. You think >> I think that the UK um and some some >> I think that the UK um and some some >> I think that the UK um and some some countries in Europe like Sweden are a countries in Europe like Sweden are a countries in Europe like Sweden are a little bit ahead of the curve on some of little bit ahead of the curve on some of little bit ahead of the curve on some of these things. They've recognized the these things. They've recognized the these things. They've recognized the data because obviously the smartphone data because obviously the smartphone data because obviously the smartphone and social media is not a unique US and social media is not a unique US and social media is not a unique US problem. This has been a global issue problem. This has been a global issue problem. This has been a global issue particularly in the developed world of particularly in the developed world of particularly in the developed world of um these kids having access to um these kids having access to um these kids having access to technology and seeing bad results from technology and seeing bad results from technology and seeing bad results from it. So um you know the UK has enacted

it. So um you know the UK has enacted it. So um you know the UK has enacted age verification for pornography age verification for pornography age verification for pornography websites. They've um they were even websites. They've um they were even websites. They've um they were even ahead of us in terms of banning phones ahead of us in terms of banning phones ahead of us in terms of banning phones from schools. They have a lot of from schools. They have a lot of from schools. They have a lot of communities now that have completely um communities now that have completely um communities now that have completely um banned phones from schools and even kind banned phones from schools and even kind banned phones from schools and even kind of created a movement a cultural of created a movement a cultural of created a movement a cultural movement of parents saying we want to be movement of parents saying we want to be movement of parents saying we want to be like a communitywide townwide free of like a communitywide townwide free of like a communitywide townwide free of smartphones. So the smartphone free smartphones. So the smartphone free smartphones. So the smartphone free childhood movement was born in the UK childhood movement was born in the UK childhood movement was born in the UK and has really taken off there. Um and has really taken off there. Um and has really taken off there. Um Sweden is interesting too. they have, Sweden is interesting too. they have, Sweden is interesting too. they have, you know, banned phones from the school you know, banned phones from the school you know, banned phones from the school day as well as some of the other day as well as some of the other day as well as some of the other Scandinavian countries um like Norway Scandinavian countries um like Norway Scandinavian countries um like Norway and Finland. And um so some of the most and Finland. And um so some of the most and Finland. And um so some of the most the earliest studies to come out on the the earliest studies to come out on the the earliest studies to come out on the effectiveness of school phone bans came effectiveness of school phone bans came effectiveness of school phone bans came from the UK and came from Norway and from the UK and came from Norway and from the UK and came from Norway and other countries. Um so I I think it other countries. Um so I I think it other countries. Um so I I think it should just encourage the US that other should just encourage the US that other should just encourage the US that other countries have done this and it actually countries have done this and it actually countries have done this and it actually helps to look at their examples um and helps to look at their examples um and helps to look at their examples um and we can learn um from from how their we can learn um from from how their we can learn um from from how their experience has been implementing some of experience has been implementing some of experience has been implementing some of these policies these policies these policies >> and nobody's saying boy that was a huge >> and nobody's saying boy that was a huge >> and nobody's saying boy that was a huge mistake we should go back. mistake we should go back. mistake we should go back. >> No >> No >> No >> in fact let me ask you about schools.

>> in fact let me ask you about schools. >> in fact let me ask you about schools. Have you ever heard of that in a school? Have you ever heard of that in a school? Have you ever heard of that in a school? >> Going back to the phones >> Going back to the phones >> Going back to the phones >> going saying we banned phones but like >> going saying we banned phones but like >> going saying we banned phones but like no no that was terrible we're going to no no that was terrible we're going to no no that was terrible we're going to bring the phones back. No, it's only bring the phones back. No, it's only bring the phones back. No, it's only gone one direction. Um, and I'm gone one direction. Um, and I'm gone one direction. Um, and I'm encouraged because I think even just encouraged because I think even just encouraged because I think even just seeing the effectiveness, more and more seeing the effectiveness, more and more seeing the effectiveness, more and more schools kind of tend to follow suit just schools kind of tend to follow suit just schools kind of tend to follow suit just based on the results that we're seeing based on the results that we're seeing based on the results that we're seeing so positively. so positively. so positively. >> Yeah. And a quick question on that one >> Yeah. And a quick question on that one >> Yeah. And a quick question on that one as well, who is the constituency opposed as well, who is the constituency opposed as well, who is the constituency opposed to the bans? to the bans? to the bans? >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Parents, administrators, teachers. >> Parents, administrators, teachers. >> Parents, administrators, teachers. >> It's mainly parents. Um, >> It's mainly parents. Um, >> It's mainly parents. Um, >> and students, by the way. Students. >> and students, by the way. Students. >> and students, by the way. Students. >> I mean, students, of course. >> I mean, students, of course. >> I mean, students, of course. I mean, a lot of students don't like it, I mean, a lot of students don't like it, I mean, a lot of students don't like it, but you know, I will say what's but you know, I will say what's but you know, I will say what's encouraging is some students initially encouraging is some students initially encouraging is some students initially oppose it and then they come to really oppose it and then they come to really oppose it and then they come to really appreciate the benefits of the ban appreciate the benefits of the ban appreciate the benefits of the ban because they realize just how distracted because they realize just how distracted because they realize just how distracted and stressed they were by the different and stressed they were by the different and stressed they were by the different drama happening on the phones during the drama happening on the phones during the drama happening on the phones during the school day and they say, "Now I actually school day and they say, "Now I actually school day and they say, "Now I actually feel free to be myself. I enjoy actually feel free to be myself. I enjoy actually feel free to be myself. I enjoy actually talking to my friends in person." So, talking to my friends in person." So, talking to my friends in person." So, the main constituency that has kept some the main constituency that has kept some the main constituency that has kept some schools from being able to enact these, schools from being able to enact these, schools from being able to enact these, it's not the teachers or the it's not the teachers or the it's not the teachers or the administration. uh they are obviously administration. uh they are obviously administration. uh they are obviously seeing these effects firsthands and are seeing these effects firsthands and are seeing these effects firsthands and are very eager to get rid of the phones but very eager to get rid of the phones but very eager to get rid of the phones but they get a lot of push back from parents they get a lot of push back from parents they get a lot of push back from parents and again I would say and again I would say and again I would say >> um I want to give them the benefit of >> um I want to give them the benefit of >> um I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I would just say kind of the doubt. I would just say kind of the doubt. I would just say kind of uninformed parents who again they want uninformed parents who again they want uninformed parents who again they want that constant access to their child.

that constant access to their child. that constant access to their child. They think that they need it and they They think that they need it and they They think that they need it and they haven't maybe considered how that haven't maybe considered how that haven't maybe considered how that constant access could actually be constant access could actually be constant access could actually be harming their child and even be harming their child and even be harming their child and even be distracting to them. So, I've heard from distracting to them. So, I've heard from distracting to them. So, I've heard from several teachers, uh, the biggest several teachers, uh, the biggest several teachers, uh, the biggest challenge about the cell phones is challenge about the cell phones is challenge about the cell phones is actually a parent is calling the student actually a parent is calling the student actually a parent is calling the student in the middle of class or texting them in the middle of class or texting them in the middle of class or texting them about something they want. We've gotten about something they want. We've gotten about something they want. We've gotten so used to this convenience of kind of so used to this convenience of kind of so used to this convenience of kind of instant instant communication. Um, that instant instant communication. Um, that instant instant communication. Um, that parents are the ones who are most kind parents are the ones who are most kind parents are the ones who are most kind of resistant to a phone ban. And so of resistant to a phone ban. And so of resistant to a phone ban. And so that's why I I wrote in the book, I that's why I I wrote in the book, I that's why I I wrote in the book, I wanted to explain all the reasons wanted to explain all the reasons wanted to explain all the reasons because I'm trying to help bring parents because I'm trying to help bring parents because I'm trying to help bring parents on board because in communities where on board because in communities where on board because in communities where the parents are supportive and then the the parents are supportive and then the the parents are supportive and then the school is like so eager to do this. And school is like so eager to do this. And school is like so eager to do this. And so I want more parents to actually say so I want more parents to actually say so I want more parents to actually say like we want to see this in our schools. like we want to see this in our schools. like we want to see this in our schools. >> Last question, Claire, and this probably >> Last question, Claire, and this probably >> Last question, Claire, and this probably is the one that's going to be hardest is the one that's going to be hardest is the one that's going to be hardest for a lot of a lot of us here watching for a lot of a lot of us here watching for a lot of a lot of us here watching and listening. How are parents supposed and listening. How are parents supposed and listening. How are parents supposed to do this if we're on our own phones to do this if we're on our own phones to do this if we're on our own phones all the time? all the time? all the time? >> It is definitely the most convicting >> It is definitely the most convicting >> It is definitely the most convicting question. So I do touch on this in the question. So I do touch on this in the question. So I do touch on this in the book um in that uh chapter on book um in that uh chapter on book um in that uh chapter on explaining, educating and exemplifying explaining, educating and exemplifying explaining, educating and exemplifying and I was just alluding to this in my and I was just alluding to this in my and I was just alluding to this in my other answer that a big part of how we other answer that a big part of how we other answer that a big part of how we train kids how to use as well is we have train kids how to use as well is we have train kids how to use as well is we have to model it for them as parents. And if to model it for them as parents. And if to model it for them as parents. And if we are communicating to our children we are communicating to our children we are communicating to our children that the most valuable thing that we that the most valuable thing that we that the most valuable thing that we give our time to and attention to is our give our time to and attention to is our give our time to and attention to is our phones, then kids will think that these phones, then kids will think that these phones, then kids will think that these are extremely valuable. They will be so are extremely valuable. They will be so are extremely valuable. They will be so intrigued that they want to have one and intrigued that they want to have one and intrigued that they want to have one and it will become some this appealing part it will become some this appealing part it will become some this appealing part of being an adult is having one of these of being an adult is having one of these of being an adult is having one of these phones. And so I really encourage phones. And so I really encourage phones. And so I really encourage parents, you do not have to get rid of parents, you do not have to get rid of parents, you do not have to get rid of your smartphone, though I don't think your smartphone, though I don't think your smartphone, though I don't think it's a bad thing if you do. Um, but we

it's a bad thing if you do. Um, but we it's a bad thing if you do. Um, but we really should think very carefully about really should think very carefully about really should think very carefully about distancing ourselves physically from our distancing ourselves physically from our distancing ourselves physically from our devices, especially when we're home and devices, especially when we're home and devices, especially when we're home and we're with our kids. Um, just because we're with our kids. Um, just because we're with our kids. Um, just because the mere presence of a smartphone, the mere presence of a smartphone, the mere presence of a smartphone, they've done studies on this, is they've done studies on this, is they've done studies on this, is distracting to our brain. It's actually distracting to our brain. It's actually distracting to our brain. It's actually draining us of mental emotional energy draining us of mental emotional energy draining us of mental emotional energy resisting checking our phone if it's on resisting checking our phone if it's on resisting checking our phone if it's on us and we're trying to be present with us and we're trying to be present with us and we're trying to be present with our kids. And so I recommend families our kids. And so I recommend families our kids. And so I recommend families get a phone box where you just try to get a phone box where you just try to get a phone box where you just try to leave your phones when you come home leave your phones when you come home leave your phones when you come home from work. Um at least protect dinner from work. Um at least protect dinner from work. Um at least protect dinner time, bedtime, and don't go check your time, bedtime, and don't go check your time, bedtime, and don't go check your phone again until your kids are asleep. phone again until your kids are asleep. phone again until your kids are asleep. Um so just having daily rhythms and Um so just having daily rhythms and Um so just having daily rhythms and practices of separating ourselves from practices of separating ourselves from practices of separating ourselves from our devices allows us to be present with our devices allows us to be present with our devices allows us to be present with our kids. And it breaks that total our kids. And it breaks that total our kids. And it breaks that total addiction. It it's very mentally freeing addiction. It it's very mentally freeing addiction. It it's very mentally freeing um to actually practice being physically um to actually practice being physically um to actually practice being physically separated from your phone. I know other separated from your phone. I know other separated from your phone. I know other families do like a phone free Saturday families do like a phone free Saturday families do like a phone free Saturday um where they really just try to the um where they really just try to the um where they really just try to the parents try to completely put the phone parents try to completely put the phone parents try to completely put the phone away for the day. Um you know a lot of away for the day. Um you know a lot of away for the day. Um you know a lot of parents have now opted to have a parents have now opted to have a parents have now opted to have a landline in case of emergency so they're landline in case of emergency so they're landline in case of emergency so they're not constantly tied to their not constantly tied to their not constantly tied to their smartphones. Um and so I would just I smartphones. Um and so I would just I smartphones. Um and so I would just I would think through ways that you would think through ways that you would think through ways that you yourself can distance yourself from your yourself can distance yourself from your yourself can distance yourself from your phone and how to make your phone less phone and how to make your phone less phone and how to make your phone less addicting to you by ruthlessly addicting to you by ruthlessly addicting to you by ruthlessly eliminating apps that you don't actually eliminating apps that you don't actually eliminating apps that you don't actually need to do on your phone that could wait need to do on your phone that could wait need to do on your phone that could wait till you're at a computer. Turn off till you're at a computer. Turn off till you're at a computer. Turn off notifications. Just make it as notifications. Just make it as notifications. Just make it as unappealing as possible to you so you're unappealing as possible to you so you're unappealing as possible to you so you're truly using it as a tool and it's not truly using it as a tool and it's not truly using it as a tool and it's not sucking you into distraction.

sucking you into distraction. sucking you into distraction. >> Well, it's pretty obvious, Claire. You >> Well, it's pretty obvious, Claire. You >> Well, it's pretty obvious, Claire. You thought this through pretty well. It's thought this through pretty well. It's thought this through pretty well. It's obvious in this interview. It's obvious obvious in this interview. It's obvious obvious in this interview. It's obvious in the book. It's obvious in the in the book. It's obvious in the in the book. It's obvious in the advocacy work that you do. And I just advocacy work that you do. And I just advocacy work that you do. And I just want to say thank you for all of the want to say thank you for all of the want to say thank you for all of the above. uh for how you've helped guide above. uh for how you've helped guide above. uh for how you've helped guide people here, how the book goes into even people here, how the book goes into even people here, how the book goes into even greater detail on a lot of this stuff greater detail on a lot of this stuff greater detail on a lot of this stuff and and far more and the continued uh and and far more and the continued uh and and far more and the continued uh political advocacy work you do there in political advocacy work you do there in political advocacy work you do there in Washington DC. Again, the book Tech Washington DC. Again, the book Tech Washington DC. Again, the book Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from their smartphones. Claire and teens from their smartphones. Claire and teens from their smartphones. Claire Morell is my guest. Claire, thanks for Morell is my guest. Claire, thanks for Morell is my guest. Claire, thanks for joining me. joining me. joining me. >> Thanks so much for having me. [Applause] [Applause] Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.