How to Handle Conflict and Controversy in Ministry [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 46]

If a pulpit is dominated primarily by If a pulpit is dominated primarily by the denunciation of our theological the denunciation of our theological the denunciation of our theological enemies, enemies, enemies, we will think that our biggest problem we will think that our biggest problem we will think that our biggest problem is them and our biggest problem is is them and our biggest problem is is them and our biggest problem is always us. It's it's not even when there always us. It's it's not even when there always us. It's it's not even when there is a true us and them theologically, my is a true us and them theologically, my is a true us and them theologically, my biggest problem is always me, not the biggest problem is always me, not the biggest problem is always me, not the heretic that I'm I'm dealing with. Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the nuts and bolts of ministry. My name is nuts and bolts of ministry. My name is nuts and bolts of ministry. My name is Matt Smethurst and I'm Luke Duncan. And Matt Smethurst and I'm Luke Duncan. And Matt Smethurst and I'm Luke Duncan. And we're going to be thinking about a we're going to be thinking about a we're going to be thinking about a painful subject for many pastors and painful subject for many pastors and painful subject for many pastors and that is the pastor and conflict or that is the pastor and conflict or that is the pastor and conflict or controversy. Um, in every generation, controversy. Um, in every generation, controversy. Um, in every generation, uh, sometimes it can feel like in every uh, sometimes it can feel like in every uh, sometimes it can feel like in every season of pastoral life, controversy is season of pastoral life, controversy is season of pastoral life, controversy is just around the corner, if not something just around the corner, if not something just around the corner, if not something that's crashed. unbidden into our that's crashed. unbidden into our that's crashed. unbidden into our experiences. Sometimes that can be experiences. Sometimes that can be experiences. Sometimes that can be denominational conflict. Sometimes it denominational conflict. Sometimes it denominational conflict. Sometimes it can have to do with culture and can have to do with culture and can have to do with culture and politics, but often, maybe most of the politics, but often, maybe most of the politics, but often, maybe most of the time, it just has to do with pastoring a time, it just has to do with pastoring a time, it just has to do with pastoring a a local church. Uh shephering sheep in a a local church. Uh shephering sheep in a a local church. Uh shephering sheep in a sheep pen. Um and it's not just the sin sheep pen. Um and it's not just the sin sheep pen. Um and it's not just the sin of the sheep, but also the sin that is of the sheep, but also the sin that is of the sheep, but also the sin that is in us that can lead to conflict. Pastors in us that can lead to conflict. Pastors in us that can lead to conflict. Pastors don't have the luxury of choosing don't have the luxury of choosing don't have the luxury of choosing whether controversy will come, whether controversy will come, whether controversy will come, >> but they do have to choose how they'll >> but they do have to choose how they'll >> but they do have to choose how they'll lead when it comes. So, what would be lead when it comes. So, what would be lead when it comes. So, what would be some general advice that you would give some general advice that you would give some general advice that you would give for leading wisely when conflict arises?

for leading wisely when conflict arises? for leading wisely when conflict arises? Um, first let me give testimony to my Um, first let me give testimony to my Um, first let me give testimony to my pastors as a as a boy, as a teenager pastors as a as a boy, as a teenager pastors as a as a boy, as a teenager watching them. I grew up in a time of watching them. I grew up in a time of watching them. I grew up in a time of controversy. You had theological controversy. You had theological controversy. You had theological concerns over liberalism or neo concerns over liberalism or neo concerns over liberalism or neo orthodoxy and you had evangelical men orthodoxy and you had evangelical men orthodoxy and you had evangelical men doing in in the context of the southern doing in in the context of the southern doing in in the context of the southern Presbyterian church uh a little bit of Presbyterian church uh a little bit of Presbyterian church uh a little bit of what would happen in the Southern what would happen in the Southern what would happen in the Southern Baptist Convention later in the in the Baptist Convention later in the in the Baptist Convention later in the in the conservative resurgence. And conservative resurgence. And conservative resurgence. And I grew up watching pastors that were I grew up watching pastors that were I grew up watching pastors that were involved in that conflict. And if I involved in that conflict. And if I involved in that conflict. And if I could just commend the pastors and not I could just commend the pastors and not I could just commend the pastors and not I didn't just get to see my pastor at my didn't just get to see my pastor at my didn't just get to see my pastor at my local church and then my pastor in the local church and then my pastor in the local church and then my pastor in the teenage years, but I got to see a lot of teenage years, but I got to see a lot of teenage years, but I got to see a lot of the leading evangelical ministers in the the leading evangelical ministers in the the leading evangelical ministers in the Southern Presbyterian Church because Southern Presbyterian Church because Southern Presbyterian Church because they came through my home. Uh they might they came through my home. Uh they might they came through my home. Uh they might be preaching a Bible conference at the be preaching a Bible conference at the be preaching a Bible conference at the church or they might be there meeting as church or they might be there meeting as church or they might be there meeting as a part of a of a Presbyterian meeting or a part of a of a Presbyterian meeting or a part of a of a Presbyterian meeting or something else. I got to see a lot of something else. I got to see a lot of something else. I got to see a lot of these men, hear a lot of these men, and these men, hear a lot of these men, and these men, hear a lot of these men, and they conducted themselves so well. There they conducted themselves so well. There they conducted themselves so well. There was there was no shrill denunciation was there was no shrill denunciation was there was no shrill denunciation going on from the pulpit. The pulpit was going on from the pulpit. The pulpit was going on from the pulpit. The pulpit was mainly edifying people in sound mainly edifying people in sound mainly edifying people in sound doctrine, pointing them to Christ, doctrine, pointing them to Christ, doctrine, pointing them to Christ, preaching to them the gospel. They would preaching to them the gospel. They would preaching to them the gospel. They would certainly take stands on things like the certainly take stands on things like the certainly take stands on things like the authority of the Bible, the deity of authority of the Bible, the deity of authority of the Bible, the deity of Christ, things that we've talked about Christ, things that we've talked about Christ, things that we've talked about before

before before as we've had conversations, Matt, that as we've had conversations, Matt, that as we've had conversations, Matt, that are central things to the Christian are central things to the Christian are central things to the Christian faith and to a faithful bibleelving faith and to a faithful bibleelving faith and to a faithful bibleelving evangelical ministry. They were solid as evangelical ministry. They were solid as evangelical ministry. They were solid as the day is long on that, but they were the day is long on that, but they were the day is long on that, but they were not unduly polymical in the tone and not unduly polymical in the tone and not unduly polymical in the tone and content that they struck from the even content that they struck from the even content that they struck from the even though in presbyter and in other though in presbyter and in other though in presbyter and in other meetings they were having to contend meetings they were having to contend meetings they were having to contend manfully for the faith. And I that was manfully for the faith. And I that was manfully for the faith. And I that was such a healthy environment to be in such a healthy environment to be in such a healthy environment to be in because if a pulpit is dominated because if a pulpit is dominated because if a pulpit is dominated primarily by the denunciation of our primarily by the denunciation of our primarily by the denunciation of our theological enemies, theological enemies, theological enemies, we will think that our biggest problem we will think that our biggest problem we will think that our biggest problem is them and our biggest problem is is them and our biggest problem is is them and our biggest problem is always us. It's it's not even when there always us. It's it's not even when there always us. It's it's not even when there is a true us and them theologically, my is a true us and them theologically, my is a true us and them theologically, my biggest problem is always me, not the biggest problem is always me, not the biggest problem is always me, not the heretic that I'm I'm dealing with. And heretic that I'm I'm dealing with. And heretic that I'm I'm dealing with. And so my so my so my >> Newton said, "Self-righteousness can >> Newton said, "Self-righteousness can >> Newton said, "Self-righteousness can feed off doctrines just as much as feed off doctrines just as much as feed off doctrines just as much as works." works." works." >> Absolutely it can. And so, >> Absolutely it can. And so, >> Absolutely it can. And so, thank thank the Lord. And I bet I bet thank thank the Lord. And I bet I bet thank thank the Lord. And I bet I bet there are lots of Southern Baptists that there are lots of Southern Baptists that there are lots of Southern Baptists that could give the a similar kind of could give the a similar kind of could give the a similar kind of testimony to the way that their pastors testimony to the way that their pastors testimony to the way that their pastors conducted themselves during the conducted themselves during the conducted themselves during the conservative resurgence. I can give that conservative resurgence. I can give that conservative resurgence. I can give that testimony. And so they gave me a good testimony. And so they gave me a good testimony. And so they gave me a good model of look, there going to be some model of look, there going to be some model of look, there going to be some places where I have to take a stand places where I have to take a stand places where I have to take a stand often against other pastors or other often against other pastors or other often against other pastors or other theologians on theological grounds. I'm

theologians on theological grounds. I'm theologians on theological grounds. I'm I want to make sure that my people are I want to make sure that my people are I want to make sure that my people are aware of the issues. I want to make sure aware of the issues. I want to make sure aware of the issues. I want to make sure that my people are standing firm on the that my people are standing firm on the that my people are standing firm on the scriptures, but I'm not going to bring scriptures, but I'm not going to bring scriptures, but I'm not going to bring them into an undue and imbalanced them into an undue and imbalanced them into an undue and imbalanced ministry of denunciation and of and of ministry of denunciation and of and of ministry of denunciation and of and of pimics. And this, yeah, TGC has pimics. And this, yeah, TGC has pimics. And this, yeah, TGC has published that famous exchange between published that famous exchange between published that famous exchange between Martin Lloyd Jones and the the minister Martin Lloyd Jones and the the minister Martin Lloyd Jones and the the minister in uh Canada who was a very famous in uh Canada who was a very famous in uh Canada who was a very famous controversialist. And Lloyd Jones was controversialist. And Lloyd Jones was controversialist. And Lloyd Jones was just saying, you're not going to edify just saying, you're not going to edify just saying, you're not going to edify your people if your ministry is your people if your ministry is your people if your ministry is primarily denunciation and pyic. You primarily denunciation and pyic. You primarily denunciation and pyic. You need to edify them positively with the need to edify them positively with the need to edify them positively with the exposition of the Bible. And folks can exposition of the Bible. And folks can exposition of the Bible. And folks can look that up, by the way. It's titled look that up, by the way. It's titled look that up, by the way. It's titled when Martin Lloyd Jones confronted a when Martin Lloyd Jones confronted a when Martin Lloyd Jones confronted a pastor who loved controversy and pastor who loved controversy and pastor who loved controversy and denunciation. Lloyd Jones was no mambby denunciation. Lloyd Jones was no mambby denunciation. Lloyd Jones was no mambby pami minister. He stood up on his hind pami minister. He stood up on his hind pami minister. He stood up on his hind legs and fought on the important things.

legs and fought on the important things. legs and fought on the important things. Praise God. And and Spurgeon did the Praise God. And and Spurgeon did the Praise God. And and Spurgeon did the same thing. But nobody would have same thing. But nobody would have same thing. But nobody would have guessed Spurgeon's ministry was a guessed Spurgeon's ministry was a guessed Spurgeon's ministry was a ministry of denunciation. It was a ministry of denunciation. It was a ministry of denunciation. It was a positive ministry of exposition where positive ministry of exposition where positive ministry of exposition where you built people's foundations of faith you built people's foundations of faith you built people's foundations of faith in Christ, in the gospel, in God's word, in Christ, in the gospel, in God's word, in Christ, in the gospel, in God's word, not in those guys are bad over there. not in those guys are bad over there. not in those guys are bad over there. And boy, he did he have to contend in And boy, he did he have to contend in And boy, he did he have to contend in the downgrade controversy with others, the downgrade controversy with others, the downgrade controversy with others, but but the the the warp and woof of his but but the the the warp and woof of his but but the the the warp and woof of his ministry was edification and ministry was edification and ministry was edification and sanctification and proclamation of the sanctification and proclamation of the sanctification and proclamation of the gospel. And so I think that's if if the gospel. And so I think that's if if the gospel. And so I think that's if if the controversy that we're dealing with is a controversy that we're dealing with is a controversy that we're dealing with is a theological controversy and and all of theological controversy and and all of theological controversy and and all of us those things they don't just come in us those things they don't just come in us those things they don't just come in one generation and go away, we'll we'll one generation and go away, we'll we'll one generation and go away, we'll we'll have to deal with those kinds of things. have to deal with those kinds of things. have to deal with those kinds of things. We've you know I've I've seen a series We've you know I've I've seen a series We've you know I've I've seen a series of things come on in evangelicalism. of things come on in evangelicalism. of things come on in evangelicalism. Many years ago, maybe 20 years ago, we Many years ago, maybe 20 years ago, we Many years ago, maybe 20 years ago, we were dealing with open theism in were dealing with open theism in were dealing with open theism in evangelicalism. And do I want my people evangelicalism. And do I want my people evangelicalism. And do I want my people to be open theists? No. I I want them to to be open theists? No. I I want them to to be open theists? No. I I want them to believe in the providence of God and the believe in the providence of God and the believe in the providence of God and the fornowledge of God. And I want them to fornowledge of God. And I want them to fornowledge of God. And I want them to take comfort in the sovereignty of God.

take comfort in the sovereignty of God. take comfort in the sovereignty of God. And I don't want them to grab on to the And I don't want them to grab on to the And I don't want them to grab on to the latest goofy trend, even if it's coming latest goofy trend, even if it's coming latest goofy trend, even if it's coming out of evangelical quarters. But am I out of evangelical quarters. But am I out of evangelical quarters. But am I going to do a sermon series that? going to do a sermon series that? going to do a sermon series that? Probably not. I, you know, I might do Probably not. I, you know, I might do Probably not. I, you know, I might do >> You want to hear my joke about open >> You want to hear my joke about open >> You want to hear my joke about open theis? I would love to hear this. theis? I would love to hear this. theis? I would love to hear this. >> Open theism has no future. >> Open theism has no future. >> Open theism has no future. >> Ouch. >> Ouch. >> Ouch. >> It's not very good. >> It's not very good. >> It's not very good. >> Ouch. But we're not a comedy podcast >> Ouch. But we're not a comedy podcast >> Ouch. But we're not a comedy podcast >> or it's there is no future, right? Uh >> or it's there is no future, right? Uh >> or it's there is no future, right? Uh the future doesn't exist yet. Exactly. the future doesn't exist yet. Exactly. the future doesn't exist yet. Exactly. Um Um Um >> so I there going to be things that come >> so I there going to be things that come >> so I there going to be things that come along like that that require us to along like that that require us to along like that that require us to engage theologically and require us to engage theologically and require us to engage theologically and require us to take some hits. But we we don't want our take some hits. But we we don't want our take some hits. But we we don't want our people to become people that love people to become people that love people to become people that love finding out the things that other people finding out the things that other people finding out the things that other people are doing wrong. They they need to be are doing wrong. They they need to be are doing wrong. They they need to be far more concerned about making sure far more concerned about making sure far more concerned about making sure that their own hearts are pliable to the that their own hearts are pliable to the that their own hearts are pliable to the spirit by the word than than picking out spirit by the word than than picking out spirit by the word than than picking out everything else wrong that somebody else everything else wrong that somebody else everything else wrong that somebody else is doing. So I thank God I had pastors is doing. So I thank God I had pastors is doing. So I thank God I had pastors that were both faithful. They contended that were both faithful. They contended that were both faithful. They contended for the faith where it needed to be for the faith where it needed to be for the faith where it needed to be contended for. But in their ministry to contended for. But in their ministry to contended for. But in their ministry to me, I mostly remember their edifying me, I mostly remember their edifying me, I mostly remember their edifying exposition that built me up in the exposition that built me up in the exposition that built me up in the truth. Now, one of the reasons in truth. Now, one of the reasons in truth. Now, one of the reasons in controversy that we have to contend for controversy that we have to contend for controversy that we have to contend for that is so that that can be the way that that is so that that can be the way that that is so that that can be the way that most of the ministry of the church is most of the ministry of the church is most of the ministry of the church is being done. And so it's well worth, you

being done. And so it's well worth, you being done. And so it's well worth, you know, our our our forefathers in the the know, our our our forefathers in the the know, our our our forefathers in the the evangelicals in the Southern evangelicals in the Southern evangelicals in the Southern Presbyterian tradition or the Presbyterian tradition or the Presbyterian tradition or the evangelicals in the Southern Baptist evangelicals in the Southern Baptist evangelicals in the Southern Baptist Convention that were part of the Convention that were part of the Convention that were part of the conservative resurgence. They had to conservative resurgence. They had to conservative resurgence. They had to they had to take a lot of hits so that they had to take a lot of hits so that they had to take a lot of hits so that the bulk of the ministry of the church the bulk of the ministry of the church the bulk of the ministry of the church could be edifying. But we don't want to could be edifying. But we don't want to could be edifying. But we don't want to be so caught up in controversy that we be so caught up in controversy that we be so caught up in controversy that we turn our people into brittle turn our people into brittle turn our people into brittle controversialists. We want them to be controversialists. We want them to be controversialists. We want them to be whole, godly, faithful, steady, loving whole, godly, faithful, steady, loving whole, godly, faithful, steady, loving people that aren't blown around by the people that aren't blown around by the people that aren't blown around by the winds of doctrine, but al also aren't on winds of doctrine, but al also aren't on winds of doctrine, but al also aren't on a heresy hunt, you know, every waking a heresy hunt, you know, every waking a heresy hunt, you know, every waking moment. Yeah. I've heard you use before moment. Yeah. I've heard you use before moment. Yeah. I've heard you use before the adverb manfully. There's something the adverb manfully. There's something the adverb manfully. There's something about the role of elders as fathers in about the role of elders as fathers in about the role of elders as fathers in the household of faith. Um, where we are the household of faith. Um, where we are the household of faith. Um, where we are meant to guard and protect the sheep uh meant to guard and protect the sheep uh meant to guard and protect the sheep uh from wolves and from other threats. But from wolves and from other threats. But from wolves and from other threats. But pastors need to really beware a heart pastors need to really beware a heart pastors need to really beware a heart that loves controversy. that loves controversy. that loves controversy. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> To be clear, no faithful Christian, no >> To be clear, no faithful Christian, no >> To be clear, no faithful Christian, no faithful minister will be able to avoid faithful minister will be able to avoid faithful minister will be able to avoid controversy, but beware a heart that controversy, but beware a heart that controversy, but beware a heart that relishes it because the kingdom of God relishes it because the kingdom of God relishes it because the kingdom of God is not a soap opera for our is not a soap opera for our is not a soap opera for our entertainment. And I I just think that entertainment. And I I just think that entertainment. And I I just think that honestly sometimes we can think of honestly sometimes we can think of honestly sometimes we can think of ourselves as lovers of truth, ourselves as lovers of truth, ourselves as lovers of truth, >> right? when really we've just become >> right? when really we've just become >> right? when really we've just become lovers of controversy. And I think lovers of controversy. And I think lovers of controversy. And I think sometimes the reason we become lovers of sometimes the reason we become lovers of sometimes the reason we become lovers of controversy, frankly, li is because controversy, frankly, li is because controversy, frankly, li is because we've grown bored with Jesus. The the

we've grown bored with Jesus. The the we've grown bored with Jesus. The the the thing that used to animate us, the the thing that used to animate us, the the thing that used to animate us, the the gospel of grace and the glory of the gospel of grace and the glory of the gospel of grace and the glory of substitutionary atonement and the hope substitutionary atonement and the hope substitutionary atonement and the hope of a better world to come, that kind of of a better world to come, that kind of of a better world to come, that kind of stuff can start to feel like old news to stuff can start to feel like old news to stuff can start to feel like old news to our hearts. And so we're more allured our hearts. And so we're more allured our hearts. And so we're more allured and drawn by the latest twist and turn and drawn by the latest twist and turn and drawn by the latest twist and turn of a given controversy. That sparks in of a given controversy. That sparks in of a given controversy. That sparks in me yet another thought. I think one of me yet another thought. I think one of me yet another thought. I think one of the things that also helped didn't cure the things that also helped didn't cure the things that also helped didn't cure me of that. I've had to fight against me of that. I've had to fight against me of that. I've had to fight against this over the course of my life and this over the course of my life and this over the course of my life and ministry, but it certainly warned my ministry, but it certainly warned my ministry, but it certainly warned my heart against it. Was just seeing the heart against it. Was just seeing the heart against it. Was just seeing the tears of godly men that I respected in tears of godly men that I respected in tears of godly men that I respected in controversy. They they were not controversy. They they were not controversy. They they were not triumphalist. They were not patting triumphalist. They were not patting triumphalist. They were not patting themselves on the back like they had all themselves on the back like they had all themselves on the back like they had all the answers and the other guys were the answers and the other guys were the answers and the other guys were completely wrong. They were tearful completely wrong. They were tearful completely wrong. They were tearful about it. They they cared about the about it. They they cared about the about it. They they cared about the unity of the church, but they did not unity of the church, but they did not unity of the church, but they did not believe that they could compromise the believe that they could compromise the believe that they could compromise the truth of God for the sake of a sham truth of God for the sake of a sham truth of God for the sake of a sham unity. And it broke their hearts. And I unity. And it broke their hearts. And I unity. And it broke their hearts. And I I I myself because I got to see that in I I myself because I got to see that in I I myself because I got to see that in them. I I've been able to go back and them. I I've been able to go back and them. I I've been able to go back and look at that history and realize, you look at that history and realize, you look at that history and realize, you know, there were some there were some know, there were some there were some know, there were some there were some dear dear saints that were on the wrong dear dear saints that were on the wrong dear dear saints that were on the wrong side of that controversy that I care side of that controversy that I care side of that controversy that I care about a lot and I have respect for. Um about a lot and I have respect for. Um about a lot and I have respect for. Um and and so you know if if we don't if we and and so you know if if we don't if we and and so you know if if we don't if we don't engage in controversy with a

don't engage in controversy with a don't engage in controversy with a spirit of of heartbreak and and spirit of of heartbreak and and spirit of of heartbreak and and tearfulness, it's a that's a dangerous tearfulness, it's a that's a dangerous tearfulness, it's a that's a dangerous thing too. This the triumphalism that thing too. This the triumphalism that thing too. This the triumphalism that can you know I'm right and you're wrong can you know I'm right and you're wrong can you know I'm right and you're wrong and that that that can be as you were and that that that can be as you were and that that that can be as you were saying earlier a a sense of saying earlier a a sense of saying earlier a a sense of self-justification. self-justification. self-justification. uh that that my my justification rests uh that that my my justification rests uh that that my my justification rests in my rightness on this. And I think in my rightness on this. And I think in my rightness on this. And I think that can be lost in controversy where that can be lost in controversy where that can be lost in controversy where you can and I think that's maybe part of you can and I think that's maybe part of you can and I think that's maybe part of the story of what happened in parts of the story of what happened in parts of the story of what happened in parts of fundamentalism. fundamentalism. fundamentalism. I would have been far more sympathetic I would have been far more sympathetic I would have been far more sympathetic with the with the fundamentalists of the with the with the fundamentalists of the with the with the fundamentalists of the early 20th century than I would have early 20th century than I would have early 20th century than I would have been with any of the of the theological been with any of the of the theological been with any of the of the theological liberalism that they were responding to. liberalism that they were responding to. liberalism that they were responding to. But when you're in an environment where But when you're in an environment where But when you're in an environment where the dominant thing is they're the enemy, the dominant thing is they're the enemy, the dominant thing is they're the enemy, you forget about the the dangers in your you forget about the the dangers in your you forget about the the dangers in your own heart. And and an edifying ministry own heart. And and an edifying ministry own heart. And and an edifying ministry is going to make sure that we're is going to make sure that we're is going to make sure that we're pointing the fingers at our own hearts pointing the fingers at our own hearts pointing the fingers at our own hearts even while we are warning people against even while we are warning people against even while we are warning people against errors that are going to send them down errors that are going to send them down errors that are going to send them down a bad pathway. It reminds me of Spurgeon a bad pathway. It reminds me of Spurgeon a bad pathway. It reminds me of Spurgeon saying when you're drawn into a saying when you're drawn into a saying when you're drawn into a controversy, use very hard arguments and controversy, use very hard arguments and controversy, use very hard arguments and very soft words very soft words very soft words >> because ultimately we're trying to win >> because ultimately we're trying to win >> because ultimately we're trying to win the person. Not trying to destroy them.

the person. Not trying to destroy them. the person. Not trying to destroy them. We're trying to win them as we yes We're trying to win them as we yes We're trying to win them as we yes courageously, valiantly try to attack courageously, valiantly try to attack courageously, valiantly try to attack wrong ideas. But we again need to be wrong ideas. But we again need to be wrong ideas. But we again need to be careful that we're not frankly looking careful that we're not frankly looking careful that we're not frankly looking for a rush that we used to get from for a rush that we used to get from for a rush that we used to get from meditating on the things of God and the meditating on the things of God and the meditating on the things of God and the glory of Christ and the beauty of the glory of Christ and the beauty of the glory of Christ and the beauty of the gospel uh that we're now having to find gospel uh that we're now having to find gospel uh that we're now having to find in just uh a form of street fighting. Uh in just uh a form of street fighting. Uh in just uh a form of street fighting. Uh John Newton in one of his I already John Newton in one of his I already John Newton in one of his I already quoted him once but he has an amazing quoted him once but he has an amazing quoted him once but he has an amazing letter called on controversy. We'll put letter called on controversy. We'll put letter called on controversy. We'll put it in the show notes. It's not long. We it in the show notes. It's not long. We it in the show notes. It's not long. We would encourage uh listeners to to read would encourage uh listeners to to read would encourage uh listeners to to read John Newton's letter where he's giving a John Newton's letter where he's giving a John Newton's letter where he's giving a younger minister some advice for whether younger minister some advice for whether younger minister some advice for whether and how to wade into a painful and how to wade into a painful and how to wade into a painful controversy. And at one point he says, controversy. And at one point he says, controversy. And at one point he says, "What will it profit a man if he gain "What will it profit a man if he gain "What will it profit a man if he gain his cause and silence his adversary if his cause and silence his adversary if his cause and silence his adversary if at the same time he loses that humble at the same time he loses that humble at the same time he loses that humble tender frame of spirit in which the Lord tender frame of spirit in which the Lord tender frame of spirit in which the Lord delights?"

delights?" delights?" >> There's not only one kind of >> There's not only one kind of >> There's not only one kind of controversy. Uh there there are many controversy. Uh there there are many controversy. Uh there there are many kinds. So talk more about how how do we kinds. So talk more about how how do we kinds. So talk more about how how do we know when we're called to public know when we're called to public know when we're called to public clarity, to patient private shephering, clarity, to patient private shephering, clarity, to patient private shephering, to an immediate response or to letting to an immediate response or to letting to an immediate response or to letting something play out? Well, you know, something play out? Well, you know, something play out? Well, you know, there are going to be other kinds of there are going to be other kinds of there are going to be other kinds of theological controversies that are not theological controversies that are not theological controversies that are not at the level of the denial of the at the level of the denial of the at the level of the denial of the authority of scripture or the denial of authority of scripture or the denial of authority of scripture or the denial of the deity of Christ or even the denial the deity of Christ or even the denial the deity of Christ or even the denial of the sovereignty of God where good men of the sovereignty of God where good men of the sovereignty of God where good men can have differences. And I think we can have differences. And I think we can have differences. And I think we need to be aware of that that that need to be aware of that that that need to be aware of that that that sometimes is even more painful and more sometimes is even more painful and more sometimes is even more painful and more difficult than than the elevated difficult than than the elevated difficult than than the elevated controversies over foundational matters controversies over foundational matters controversies over foundational matters of the faith because it's a situation of the faith because it's a situation of the faith because it's a situation where you do know that that brother is a where you do know that that brother is a where you do know that that brother is a brother and he's a valued brother but brother and he's a valued brother but brother and he's a valued brother but you're on the different side of a you're on the different side of a you're on the different side of a theological issue of how you should go theological issue of how you should go theological issue of how you should go with something. Those can be very very with something. Those can be very very with something. Those can be very very difficult to deal with. And then yet difficult to deal with. And then yet difficult to deal with. And then yet another kind is over credential judgment another kind is over credential judgment another kind is over credential judgment issues when it comes to matters of issues when it comes to matters of issues when it comes to matters of church discipline. Uh and and boy there church discipline. Uh and and boy there church discipline. Uh and and boy there you can really see or culture politics.

you can really see or culture politics. you can really see or culture politics. >> Correct. You know, you can really see a >> Correct. You know, you can really see a >> Correct. You know, you can really see a divide where people that are like right divide where people that are like right divide where people that are like right here together theologically here together theologically here together theologically can have very opposite impulses and can have very opposite impulses and can have very opposite impulses and instincts for how to go in a particular instincts for how to go in a particular instincts for how to go in a particular culture, politics, and often it's culture, politics, and often it's culture, politics, and often it's because people are attuned to real because people are attuned to real because people are attuned to real threats in different ways. So, it's a threats in different ways. So, it's a threats in different ways. So, it's a matter of same position, different matter of same position, different matter of same position, different suspicions. So if if people are familiar suspicions. So if if people are familiar suspicions. So if if people are familiar with either Kevin D. Young's categories with either Kevin D. Young's categories with either Kevin D. Young's categories of 1 2 3 and four or Mike Graham's 1 2 3 of 1 2 3 and four or Mike Graham's 1 2 3 of 1 2 3 and four or Mike Graham's 1 2 3 4 5 6. I do think that part of the 4 5 6. I do think that part of the 4 5 6. I do think that part of the reason that that spread of instincts and reason that that spread of instincts and reason that that spread of instincts and and groups if you will amongst and groups if you will amongst and groups if you will amongst evangelicals evangelicals evangelicals is because of what you just said. is because of what you just said. is because of what you just said. They're they're attuned to different They're they're attuned to different They're they're attuned to different things. And so they're they're instinct things. And so they're they're instinct things. And so they're they're instinct is to push back in one direction or is to push back in one direction or is to push back in one direction or another. And you can actually have another. And you can actually have another. And you can actually have somebody that's pretty close somebody that's pretty close somebody that's pretty close theologically that will react very very theologically that will react very very theologically that will react very very differently to the cultural or to the differently to the cultural or to the differently to the cultural or to the political or to the to the judgment in political or to the to the judgment in political or to the to the judgment in church discipline call that you need to church discipline call that you need to church discipline call that you need to make and one in Trevan Wax's little book make and one in Trevan Wax's little book make and one in Trevan Wax's little book the multidirectional leader the multidirectional leader the multidirectional leader >> he does talk about this medicine for the >> he does talk about this medicine for the >> he does talk about this medicine for the moment I mean I think it's it's very moment I mean I think it's it's very moment I mean I think it's it's very helpful even prophetic because frankly helpful even prophetic because frankly helpful even prophetic because frankly we see in the Lord Jesus himself we see in the Lord Jesus himself we see in the Lord Jesus himself >> that kind of versatility uh he kept >> that kind of versatility uh he kept >> that kind of versatility uh he kept everyone around him on their toes everyone around him on their toes everyone around him on their toes because you never quite knew how he was

because you never quite knew how he was because you never quite knew how he was going to respond in a given moment going to respond in a given moment going to respond in a given moment because he was alert to threats from all because he was alert to threats from all because he was alert to threats from all sides. And that's not to uh say that sides. And that's not to uh say that sides. And that's not to uh say that that there's, you know, equal and that there's, you know, equal and that there's, you know, equal and opposite errors on both sides. We we opposite errors on both sides. We we opposite errors on both sides. We we don't want to succumb to a kind of both don't want to succumb to a kind of both don't want to succumb to a kind of both sidesism. And yet at the same time, we sidesism. And yet at the same time, we sidesism. And yet at the same time, we want to be aware that the devil is want to be aware that the devil is want to be aware that the devil is crafty and he is going to try to attack crafty and he is going to try to attack crafty and he is going to try to attack us from the direction we're least us from the direction we're least us from the direction we're least prepared to meet him. Yeah. Yeah. And I prepared to meet him. Yeah. Yeah. And I prepared to meet him. Yeah. Yeah. And I even even looking what Jesus was even even looking what Jesus was even even looking what Jesus was interested in engaging with and what he interested in engaging with and what he interested in engaging with and what he was not in comparison to some of his was not in comparison to some of his was not in comparison to some of his other contemporaries is fascinating. So, other contemporaries is fascinating. So, other contemporaries is fascinating. So, you know, you you you think about um you you know, you you you think about um you you know, you you you think about um you you think about, for instance, Jesus you think about, for instance, Jesus you think about, for instance, Jesus ignoring the the Sadducees. Really, ignoring the the Sadducees. Really, ignoring the the Sadducees. Really, there's very little interaction from there's very little interaction from there's very little interaction from Jesus to the Sadducees. He spends a lot Jesus to the Sadducees. He spends a lot Jesus to the Sadducees. He spends a lot of time on the Pharisees and he uses of time on the Pharisees and he uses of time on the Pharisees and he uses really strident language with the really strident language with the really strident language with the Pharisees. And I think it's because he's Pharisees. And I think it's because he's Pharisees. And I think it's because he's got so much hope for them. And for the got so much hope for them. And for the got so much hope for them. And for the Sadducees, he's just not even bothered Sadducees, he's just not even bothered Sadducees, he's just not even bothered there. there's very little interaction there. there's very little interaction there. there's very little interaction with him. They are so far off. They're with him. They are so far off. They're with him. They are so far off. They're not anywhere near the same page with not anywhere near the same page with not anywhere near the same page with him. They're disrespectful in the way him. They're disrespectful in the way him. They're disrespectful in the way that uh they approach him. They're that uh they approach him. They're that uh they approach him. They're dismissive of him and he is dismissive dismissive of him and he is dismissive dismissive of him and he is dismissive of of them. And so even watching what of of them. And so even watching what of of them. And so even watching what Jesus decides to engage and what he Jesus decides to engage and what he Jesus decides to engage and what he decides not to engage with in his

decides not to engage with in his decides not to engage with in his context is is something that we need. context is is something that we need. context is is something that we need. because it was the thing everyone was because it was the thing everyone was because it was the thing everyone was talking about doesn't mean he thought it talking about doesn't mean he thought it talking about doesn't mean he thought it was worth his time to engage. was worth his time to engage. was worth his time to engage. >> Exactly. And so I think we need to think >> Exactly. And so I think we need to think >> Exactly. And so I think we need to think we need to think that through. The other we need to think that through. The other we need to think that through. The other testimony I'd give Matt, you and I have testimony I'd give Matt, you and I have testimony I'd give Matt, you and I have talked about this talked about this talked about this being with John Piper in T4G and and being with John Piper in T4G and and being with John Piper in T4G and and John and I have a lot of theological John and I have a lot of theological John and I have a lot of theological commonalities and a lot of shared commonalities and a lot of shared commonalities and a lot of shared concerns concerns concerns and yet we would and yet we would and yet we would >> and you've converted him to Coke Zero >> and you've converted him to Coke Zero >> and you've converted him to Coke Zero with lime. have taught him about lime in with lime. have taught him about lime in with lime. have taught him about lime in Coke Zero. I'm very proud to say. But Coke Zero. I'm very proud to say. But Coke Zero. I'm very proud to say. But even thinking through a few years back, even thinking through a few years back, even thinking through a few years back, how John responded to certain issues and how John responded to certain issues and how John responded to certain issues and to people differently than I did made me to people differently than I did made me to people differently than I did made me rethink how I related to people in my rethink how I related to people in my rethink how I related to people in my own ecclesiastical fellowship and own ecclesiastical fellowship and own ecclesiastical fellowship and communion that related to those issues communion that related to those issues communion that related to those issues differently than I did. And I I John was differently than I did. And I I John was differently than I did. And I I John was a good example.

a good example. a good example. >> Yeah, he was a good example. And it just >> Yeah, he was a good example. And it just >> Yeah, he was a good example. And it just made me think, okay, wow, I'm really made me think, okay, wow, I'm really made me think, okay, wow, I'm really close to John on this and this and this close to John on this and this and this close to John on this and this and this and this and yet he relates to this guy and this and yet he relates to this guy and this and yet he relates to this guy and this movement, maybe in a softer way and this movement, maybe in a softer way and this movement, maybe in a softer way than I would. I' I'd be more hard-edged than I would. I' I'd be more hard-edged than I would. I' I'd be more hard-edged in relating to that. And um and and yet in relating to that. And um and and yet in relating to that. And um and and yet with guys within my own circles, if they with guys within my own circles, if they with guys within my own circles, if they related like John did, I would tend to related like John did, I would tend to related like John did, I would tend to view them as the bad guys. And I view them as the bad guys. And I view them as the bad guys. And I thought, why is John not a bad guy, but thought, why is John not a bad guy, but thought, why is John not a bad guy, but they're bad guys? And I and I had to do they're bad guys? And I and I had to do they're bad guys? And I and I had to do some searching of my own heart and some searching of my own heart and some searching of my own heart and realize they're not bad guys. They're realize they're not bad guys. They're realize they're not bad guys. They're they've got the same instincts that John they've got the same instincts that John they've got the same instincts that John does. They're actually really close to does. They're actually really close to does. They're actually really close to me theologically, and I need to I need me theologically, and I need to I need me theologically, and I need to I need to be more patient and hear them out. to be more patient and hear them out. to be more patient and hear them out. And like you said with Spurgeon, use And like you said with Spurgeon, use And like you said with Spurgeon, use soft words with really good arguments to soft words with really good arguments to soft words with really good arguments to try and win them instead of driving them try and win them instead of driving them try and win them instead of driving them away. And I had the same experience with away. And I had the same experience with away. And I had the same experience with with Tim. You and I were talking about with Tim. You and I were talking about with Tim. You and I were talking about this before we even started this this before we even started this this before we even started this conversation about Tim Keller. Yeah. You conversation about Tim Keller. Yeah. You conversation about Tim Keller. Yeah. You know, Tim and I were first sort of know, Tim and I were first sort of know, Tim and I were first sort of thrown together in a theological thrown together in a theological thrown together in a theological controversy in the PCA to represent two controversy in the PCA to represent two controversy in the PCA to represent two sides. And you know as we talked I think sides. And you know as we talked I think sides. And you know as we talked I think we we really liked one another and we we really liked one another and we we really liked one another and >> it was the context in which you kind of >> it was the context in which you kind of >> it was the context in which you kind of met and got to really was a debate was met and got to really was a debate was met and got to really was a debate was supposed to be a debate really ended up supposed to be a debate really ended up supposed to be a debate really ended up being a fruitful conversation that I being a fruitful conversation that I being a fruitful conversation that I think helped the whole denomination think helped the whole denomination think helped the whole denomination figure out how to think about the issues figure out how to think about the issues figure out how to think about the issues that were before us. But we number one

that were before us. But we number one that were before us. But we number one we found wow we're really close on this we found wow we're really close on this we found wow we're really close on this and and we could live with our and and we could live with our and and we could live with our differences on those things and it it differences on those things and it it differences on those things and it it that started a friendship and that made that started a friendship and that made that started a friendship and that made me think have I treated other guys like me think have I treated other guys like me think have I treated other guys like enemies or like the bad guys enemies or like the bad guys enemies or like the bad guys too quickly um because they had too quickly um because they had too quickly um because they had different instincts on how to vote about different instincts on how to vote about different instincts on how to vote about something in presbyter or how to address something in presbyter or how to address something in presbyter or how to address a particular credential or or judgment. a particular credential or or judgment. a particular credential or or judgment. >> You're talking about wisdom cause, >> You're talking about wisdom cause, >> You're talking about wisdom cause, right? right? right? >> Not >> Not >> Not >> orthodoxy. >> orthodoxy. >> orthodoxy. >> And and so I I do think we can sometimes >> And and so I I do think we can sometimes >> And and so I I do think we can sometimes move to a moral and a theological level move to a moral and a theological level move to a moral and a theological level too quick when we real actually it's too quick when we real actually it's too quick when we real actually it's back a couple of steps at a credential back a couple of steps at a credential back a couple of steps at a credential wisdom level. Not that those are wisdom level. Not that those are wisdom level. Not that those are unrelated, those are related. But we can unrelated, those are related. But we can unrelated, those are related. But we can get on our high horse too quickly. And get on our high horse too quickly. And get on our high horse too quickly. And that's another thing that can that can that's another thing that can that can that's another thing that can that can spawn uh division spawn uh division spawn uh division um and uh you know sort of a a context um and uh you know sort of a a context um and uh you know sort of a a context of conflict of conflict of conflict where where where it shouldn't it you know we can disagree it shouldn't it you know we can disagree it shouldn't it you know we can disagree with people and still respect them and with people and still respect them and with people and still respect them and love them and value them. In fact, it love them and value them. In fact, it love them and value them. In fact, it was it was during that time it really was it was during that time it really was it was during that time it really hit me hard this around the early 2000s.

hit me hard this around the early 2000s. hit me hard this around the early 2000s. I would rather engage in controversy I would rather engage in controversy I would rather engage in controversy with somebody that I love than somebody with somebody that I love than somebody with somebody that I love than somebody that I really don't respect because that I really don't respect because that I really don't respect because it'll the worst instincts will come out it'll the worst instincts will come out it'll the worst instincts will come out of me if I'm engaging in controversy of me if I'm engaging in controversy of me if I'm engaging in controversy with somebody that I don't respect. And with somebody that I don't respect. And with somebody that I don't respect. And it was so easy to argue with Tim because it was so easy to argue with Tim because it was so easy to argue with Tim because I I didn't just respect him, I loved I I didn't just respect him, I loved I I didn't just respect him, I loved him. And so I would rather have him. And so I would rather have him. And so I would rather have theological controversy with somebody theological controversy with somebody theological controversy with somebody like that than, you know, if I'm talking like that than, you know, if I'm talking like that than, you know, if I'm talking with somebody that has denied with somebody that has denied with somebody that has denied fundamental elements of the faith, I'm fundamental elements of the faith, I'm fundamental elements of the faith, I'm going to contempt is going to be that's going to contempt is going to be that's going to contempt is going to be that's going to be a temptation to me. You going to be a temptation to me. You going to be a temptation to me. You know, even though that's a human being know, even though that's a human being know, even though that's a human being made in the image of God, however wrong made in the image of God, however wrong made in the image of God, however wrong they are and however pastorally they are and however pastorally they are and however pastorally dangerous the things that they are dangerous the things that they are dangerous the things that they are teaching may be to my flock and however teaching may be to my flock and however teaching may be to my flock and however much I want to protect my people from much I want to protect my people from much I want to protect my people from that, I'm tempted to contempt in that that, I'm tempted to contempt in that that, I'm tempted to contempt in that setting. And I don't I don't want to setting. And I don't I don't want to setting. And I don't I don't want to operate out of contempt in in Pymics. operate out of contempt in in Pymics. operate out of contempt in in Pymics. And so I I started thinking then, yeah, And so I I started thinking then, yeah, And so I I started thinking then, yeah, I'd rather I'd rather talk to a person I'd rather I'd rather talk to a person I'd rather I'd rather talk to a person really loving that person because I'm really loving that person because I'm really loving that person because I'm going to talk differently to a person going to talk differently to a person going to talk differently to a person that I love that that the the the that I love that that the the the that I love that that the the the disdain and the contempt that I hate in disdain and the contempt that I hate in disdain and the contempt that I hate in my soul are not going to come out when my soul are not going to come out when my soul are not going to come out when you're talking to somebody that you you're talking to somebody that you you're talking to somebody that you love. And you so you are then going to love. And you so you are then going to love. And you so you are then going to be marshalling your best arguments and be marshalling your best arguments and be marshalling your best arguments and you're going to be trying to put them in you're going to be trying to put them in you're going to be trying to put them in the most respectful language that you the most respectful language that you the most respectful language that you possibly can. You're not going to be possibly can. You're not going to be possibly can. You're not going to be hammering your your friend, you know, hammering your your friend, you know, hammering your your friend, you know, the things that you perceive or the things that you perceive or the things that you perceive or weaknesses in that person. You're going

weaknesses in that person. You're going weaknesses in that person. You're going to you talk to them like you would talk to you talk to them like you would talk to you talk to them like you would talk to your wife, talk to them like you to your wife, talk to them like you to your wife, talk to them like you would talk to your best friend. And so I would talk to your best friend. And so I would talk to your best friend. And so I I do think that's something we need to I do think that's something we need to I do think that's something we need to spend some time thinking about because spend some time thinking about because spend some time thinking about because we can get in a controversy over these we can get in a controversy over these we can get in a controversy over these sort of second level things that we amp sort of second level things that we amp sort of second level things that we amp up to a theological and moral level up to a theological and moral level up to a theological and moral level that's really not justified. Yeah. that's really not justified. Yeah. that's really not justified. Yeah. Absolutely. The proverbs is very clear. Absolutely. The proverbs is very clear. Absolutely. The proverbs is very clear. I mean there are different ways to I mean there are different ways to I mean there are different ways to respond to a fool. Sometimes we should respond to a fool. Sometimes we should respond to a fool. Sometimes we should answer a fool according to his folly. answer a fool according to his folly. answer a fool according to his folly. Sometimes we shouldn't. But the tilt of Sometimes we shouldn't. But the tilt of Sometimes we shouldn't. But the tilt of proverbs certainly seems to be toward proverbs certainly seems to be toward proverbs certainly seems to be toward versus like a gentle answer turns away versus like a gentle answer turns away versus like a gentle answer turns away rest. Very much so. rest. Very much so. rest. Very much so. >> Um and so if if you are unwilling to >> Um and so if if you are unwilling to >> Um and so if if you are unwilling to offend people, you're not fit for offend people, you're not fit for offend people, you're not fit for ministry. ministry. ministry. If you revel in offending people, you're If you revel in offending people, you're If you revel in offending people, you're not fit for ministry. Right? There's a not fit for ministry. Right? There's a not fit for ministry. Right? There's a place for paleimics, but pimics is more place for paleimics, but pimics is more place for paleimics, but pimics is more like medicine than it is like food. like medicine than it is like food. like medicine than it is like food. Praise God for medicine. It it's Praise God for medicine. It it's Praise God for medicine. It it's necessary at times, but you don't live necessary at times, but you don't live necessary at times, but you don't live on medicine. And that can be again a on medicine. And that can be again a on medicine. And that can be again a real danger for a pastor who has who has real danger for a pastor who has who has real danger for a pastor who has who has forsaken his first love and is starting forsaken his first love and is starting forsaken his first love and is starting to feed off of that rush. Um, now we've to feed off of that rush. Um, now we've to feed off of that rush. Um, now we've talked kind of about national talked kind of about national talked kind of about national controversies, denominational controversies, denominational controversies, denominational controversies, but we might have some controversies, but we might have some controversies, but we might have some pastors listening who are like, "Okay, pastors listening who are like, "Okay, pastors listening who are like, "Okay, well that's a great story, league of you well that's a great story, league of you well that's a great story, league of you in a denominational debate, but that in a denominational debate, but that in a denominational debate, but that you're a denominational leader. I'm just you're a denominational leader. I'm just you're a denominational leader. I'm just a a ordinary pastor laboring in a small

a a ordinary pastor laboring in a small a a ordinary pastor laboring in a small church. My controversies are closer to church. My controversies are closer to church. My controversies are closer to home. So, let's talk about controversy, home. So, let's talk about controversy, home. So, let's talk about controversy, conflict in the local church. What conflict in the local church. What conflict in the local church. What advice would you give pastors who are advice would you give pastors who are advice would you give pastors who are waiting through that? And again, there waiting through that? And again, there waiting through that? And again, there are different kind of cont uh conflicts are different kind of cont uh conflicts are different kind of cont uh conflicts there. You know, one can be over there. You know, one can be over there. You know, one can be over something as simple as property something as simple as property something as simple as property decisions, decisions, decisions, uh buying property for a church plant, uh buying property for a church plant, uh buying property for a church plant, building uh adding on to a church. It building uh adding on to a church. It building uh adding on to a church. It can produce tremendous tension in a can produce tremendous tension in a can produce tremendous tension in a congregation. When when our my congregation. When when our my congregation. When when our my congregation was out of space, when I congregation was out of space, when I congregation was out of space, when I came to the church, it was already out came to the church, it was already out came to the church, it was already out of space. We were we were having two of space. We were we were having two of space. We were we were having two Sunday morning services and we had two Sunday morning services and we had two Sunday morning services and we had two what we call television church meeting what we call television church meeting what we call television church meeting at the same time in other parts of the at the same time in other parts of the at the same time in other parts of the building because we couldn't get building because we couldn't get building because we couldn't get everybody in the space and yet we were everybody in the space and yet we were everybody in the space and yet we were landlocked and there was no place to go landlocked and there was no place to go landlocked and there was no place to go to to purchase new land and build. There to to purchase new land and build. There to to purchase new land and build. There was just what were we going to do? And was just what were we going to do? And was just what were we going to do? And we eventually decided, okay, we're going we eventually decided, okay, we're going we eventually decided, okay, we're going to tear the old sanctuary down to the to tear the old sanctuary down to the to tear the old sanctuary down to the ground and we're going to build a larger ground and we're going to build a larger ground and we're going to build a larger one on the same spot. And there were a one on the same spot. And there were a one on the same spot. And there were a lot of good people in the congregation lot of good people in the congregation lot of good people in the congregation that did not want to do that for a whole that did not want to do that for a whole that did not want to do that for a whole variety of reasons. And there were there variety of reasons. And there were there variety of reasons. And there were there was temperature about that. But you have was temperature about that. But you have was temperature about that. But you have to decide you're either going to do it to decide you're either going to do it to decide you're either going to do it or not. And so I I went into that or not. And so I I went into that or not. And so I I went into that congregation that congregational meeting congregation that congregational meeting congregation that congregational meeting with fear and trepidation because I had with fear and trepidation because I had with fear and trepidation because I had already heard

already heard already heard there were people animated about it. And there were people animated about it. And there were people animated about it. And so those those kinds of thing and you if so those those kinds of thing and you if so those those kinds of thing and you if the pastor gets associated with one side the pastor gets associated with one side the pastor gets associated with one side or the other of that you can have people or the other of that you can have people or the other of that you can have people that think you're bad. I saw this happen that think you're bad. I saw this happen that think you're bad. I saw this happen to a really good pastor that I served. to a really good pastor that I served. to a really good pastor that I served. They were in a very similar situation um They were in a very similar situation um They were in a very similar situation um at a at another church that I served at a at another church that I served at a at another church that I served where they were landlocked. they could where they were landlocked. they could where they were landlocked. they could not buy new land. And the only way that not buy new land. And the only way that not buy new land. And the only way that they could they could they could could build was to get permission from could build was to get permission from could build was to get permission from the neighborhood and the neighborhood the neighborhood and the neighborhood the neighborhood and the neighborhood wouldn't give him permission to build. wouldn't give him permission to build. wouldn't give him permission to build. And so the the pastor ended up buying And so the the pastor ended up buying And so the the pastor ended up buying property further out in the county and property further out in the county and property further out in the county and building a church there. And it split building a church there. And it split building a church there. And it split the church right down the middle. and the church right down the middle. and the church right down the middle. and and people were really angry with one and people were really angry with one and people were really angry with one another about that. And it was that was another about that. And it was that was another about that. And it was that was one of those tragic situations where one of those tragic situations where one of those tragic situations where there was no way to get everybody on the there was no way to get everybody on the there was no way to get everybody on the same page. There just wasn't a way to same page. There just wasn't a way to same page. There just wasn't a way to get everybody on the same page. And they get everybody on the same page. And they get everybody on the same page. And they they all had valid valid concerns, but they all had valid valid concerns, but they all had valid valid concerns, but you have to decide to do one way or the you have to decide to do one way or the you have to decide to do one way or the other. And he got associated, well, other. And he got associated, well, other. And he got associated, well, you're the pastor that took all our you're the pastor that took all our you're the pastor that took all our people and went out to another church.

people and went out to another church. people and went out to another church. And that's tough. And pastors do face And that's tough. And pastors do face And that's tough. And pastors do face things like that all the time. It may things like that all the time. It may things like that all the time. It may just be something as simple as a just be something as simple as a just be something as simple as a building program or how how much of your building program or how how much of your building program or how how much of your budget you're going to spend on missions budget you're going to spend on missions budget you're going to spend on missions or you know are instead of building are or you know are instead of building are or you know are instead of building are we going to send out a group to plant a we going to send out a group to plant a we going to send out a group to plant a church? those kinds of prudential church? those kinds of prudential church? those kinds of prudential judgments that the congregation is judgments that the congregation is judgments that the congregation is involved in can be tremendously involved in can be tremendously involved in can be tremendously controversial and the pastor can get controversial and the pastor can get controversial and the pastor can get tred and feathered. Uh even even down to tred and feathered. Uh even even down to tred and feathered. Uh even even down to you know what our pastor friends were you know what our pastor friends were you know what our pastor friends were deciding during COVID 5 years ago. You deciding during COVID 5 years ago. You deciding during COVID 5 years ago. You know I I met pastors that were tred and know I I met pastors that were tred and know I I met pastors that were tred and feathered by two sides of their feathered by two sides of their feathered by two sides of their congregations even though they were only congregations even though they were only congregations even though they were only doing one thing and one side thought doing one thing and one side thought doing one thing and one side thought they ought to do this and the other side they ought to do this and the other side they ought to do this and the other side thought they ought to do that and they thought they ought to do that and they thought they ought to do that and they were tred and feathered from both sides. were tred and feathered from both sides. were tred and feathered from both sides. So pastors know those things. So pastors know those things. So pastors know those things. >> And none of this was with the hindsight >> And none of this was with the hindsight >> And none of this was with the hindsight we have now. This was in real time. we have now. This was in real time. we have now. This was in real time. >> No, we didn't know the things that we >> No, we didn't know the things that we >> No, we didn't know the things that we know now. You're just doing the best you know now. You're just doing the best you know now. You're just doing the best you can in that context. So you can have can in that context. So you can have can in that context. So you can have that kind of a controversy and then that kind of a controversy and then that kind of a controversy and then you can have personal controversies and you can have personal controversies and you can have personal controversies and they can be incredibly painful they can be incredibly painful they can be incredibly painful sometimes. Those are the hardest. They sometimes. Those are the hardest. They sometimes. Those are the hardest. They are the hardest. They are the hardest.

are the hardest. They are the hardest. are the hardest. They are the hardest. And the closer you and very often they And the closer you and very often they And the closer you and very often they happen with people that you're really happen with people that you're really happen with people that you're really close to. I mean, I I've lost count of close to. I mean, I I've lost count of close to. I mean, I I've lost count of pastors who've told me about pastors who've told me about pastors who've told me about controversies, personal controversies controversies, personal controversies controversies, personal controversies that they've experienced from the person that they've experienced from the person that they've experienced from the person who was the chairman of the pulpit who was the chairman of the pulpit who was the chairman of the pulpit committee that called them to be the committee that called them to be the committee that called them to be the pastor. pastor. pastor. It's just heartbreaking. And there are a It's just heartbreaking. And there are a It's just heartbreaking. And there are a lot of reasons for that psychologically lot of reasons for that psychologically lot of reasons for that psychologically and and spiritually why that happens. and and spiritually why that happens. and and spiritually why that happens. But those kind of controversies just But those kind of controversies just But those kind of controversies just they they take a chunk out of you as a they they take a chunk out of you as a they they take a chunk out of you as a pastor. And then you have to figure out pastor. And then you have to figure out pastor. And then you have to figure out how do I how do I love that family? You how do I how do I love that family? You how do I how do I love that family? You how do I try to act as normally as I how do I try to act as normally as I how do I try to act as normally as I possibly can knowing that they want to possibly can knowing that they want to possibly can knowing that they want to get me fired? They're working behind my get me fired? They're working behind my get me fired? They're working behind my back to undercut me on this and that and back to undercut me on this and that and back to undercut me on this and that and the other. That's the other. That's the other. That's really, really hard. I confess something really, really hard. I confess something really, really hard. I confess something that makes me nervous is when I meet a that makes me nervous is when I meet a that makes me nervous is when I meet a visitor who's interested in joining the visitor who's interested in joining the visitor who's interested in joining the church or I'm having a membership church or I'm having a membership church or I'm having a membership interview and they just seem interview and they just seem interview and they just seem overenthusiastic overenthusiastic overenthusiastic about our church and we're, you know, about our church and we're, you know, about our church and we're, you know, they've we're the third or fourth church they've we're the third or fourth church they've we're the third or fourth church they've been a part of in the area and they've been a part of in the area and they've been a part of in the area and they think they've finally found the one they think they've finally found the one they think they've finally found the one that's going to check all their boxes.

that's going to check all their boxes. that's going to check all their boxes. And it's in those conversations when I'm And it's in those conversations when I'm And it's in those conversations when I'm wanting to actually just be very clear wanting to actually just be very clear wanting to actually just be very clear and say, "We are going to disappoint and say, "We are going to disappoint and say, "We are going to disappoint you. So, you're going to be you. So, you're going to be you. So, you're going to be disillusioned disillusioned disillusioned >> and it's not a matter of if, but when. >> and it's not a matter of if, but when. >> and it's not a matter of if, but when. And you just need to know that coming And you just need to know that coming And you just need to know that coming in. in. in. >> Yeah, that's that's a good warning. And >> Yeah, that's that's a good warning. And >> Yeah, that's that's a good warning. And I've had to give the same warning, Matt. I've had to give the same warning, Matt. I've had to give the same warning, Matt. And also to say we're not going to And also to say we're not going to And also to say we're not going to survive without forgiveness. There is survive without forgiveness. There is survive without forgiveness. There is going to be a time when you're going to going to be a time when you're going to going to be a time when you're going to have to forgive me. I'm I'm thinking have to forgive me. I'm I'm thinking have to forgive me. I'm I'm thinking right now a a hard pastoral right now a a hard pastoral right now a a hard pastoral situation that I was brought into and it situation that I was brought into and it situation that I was brought into and it was a family conflict and I was invited was a family conflict and I was invited was a family conflict and I was invited into that family conflict unwillingly. into that family conflict unwillingly. into that family conflict unwillingly. But it's one of those things as a pastor But it's one of those things as a pastor But it's one of those things as a pastor you can't say no, I won't sit down and you can't say no, I won't sit down and you can't say no, I won't sit down and meet with you. You know, you know, I'm meet with you. You know, you know, I'm meet with you. You know, you know, I'm going to get ick on me no matter what going to get ick on me no matter what going to get ick on me no matter what happens here. And I did because I I made happens here. And I did because I I made happens here. And I did because I I made a bad judgment. But in that case, the a bad judgment. But in that case, the a bad judgment. But in that case, the the woman in the family forgave me. the woman in the family forgave me. the woman in the family forgave me. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And we're really good friends to this >> And we're really good friends to this >> And we're really good friends to this day.

day. day. Without her forgiveness, that Without her forgiveness, that Without her forgiveness, that relationship would not have survived relationship would not have survived relationship would not have survived with that family without her forgiveness with that family without her forgiveness with that family without her forgiveness because I just made a bad because I just made a bad because I just made a bad >> Well, and who knows what the collateral >> Well, and who knows what the collateral >> Well, and who knows what the collateral damage would have been to her ministry damage would have been to her ministry damage would have been to her ministry or to the rest of the congregation. or to the rest of the congregation. or to the rest of the congregation. >> And and I'm I'm super close with her >> And and I'm I'm super close with her >> And and I'm I'm super close with her husband. and I'm really close with her husband. and I'm really close with her husband. and I'm really close with her children and her forgiveness to me that children and her forgiveness to me that children and her forgiveness to me that that was and and I there have been other that was and and I there have been other that was and and I there have been other situations where I've messed up and the situations where I've messed up and the situations where I've messed up and the forgiveness has not been there. forgiveness has not been there. forgiveness has not been there. Thankfully, it has not had ripple effect Thankfully, it has not had ripple effect Thankfully, it has not had ripple effect bad ramifications for the rest of the bad ramifications for the rest of the bad ramifications for the rest of the congregation. I've I mean I it's it's congregation. I've I mean I it's it's congregation. I've I mean I it's it's funny how I remember those pastoral funny how I remember those pastoral funny how I remember those pastoral mistakes more than I ever remember the mistakes more than I ever remember the mistakes more than I ever remember the people come up and say, "Oh, you people come up and say, "Oh, you people come up and say, "Oh, you encouraged me such and such in 2002 when encouraged me such and such in 2002 when encouraged me such and such in 2002 when you did so and so." And I don't remember you did so and so." And I don't remember you did so and so." And I don't remember that. But I do remember when I've messed that. But I do remember when I've messed that. But I do remember when I've messed up and it just it sometimes it'll hit me up and it just it sometimes it'll hit me up and it just it sometimes it'll hit me out of the blue and I'll just the tape out of the blue and I'll just the tape out of the blue and I'll just the tape replays and I think how in the world replays and I think how in the world replays and I think how in the world could I have done that? And so there could I have done that? And so there could I have done that? And so there have been other situations where the have been other situations where the have been other situations where the forgiveness couldn't come.

forgiveness couldn't come. forgiveness couldn't come. >> Yeah. And let me just say on that front, >> Yeah. And let me just say on that front, >> Yeah. And let me just say on that front, speaking of of Tim Keller, his last speaking of of Tim Keller, his last speaking of of Tim Keller, his last published book, you may think some kind published book, you may think some kind published book, you may think some kind of was it some kind of sophisticated of was it some kind of sophisticated of was it some kind of sophisticated cultural analysis? What what did he cultural analysis? What what did he cultural analysis? What what did he write about? No, it was a book on write about? No, it was a book on write about? No, it was a book on forgiveness because he understood that forgiveness because he understood that forgiveness because he understood that we live in a day and age in which we live in a day and age in which we live in a day and age in which everything is permitted and nothing is everything is permitted and nothing is everything is permitted and nothing is forgiven. Yeah, forgiven. Yeah, forgiven. Yeah, >> that's a really helpful book, pastors >> that's a really helpful book, pastors >> that's a really helpful book, pastors who are listening, for you to work who are listening, for you to work who are listening, for you to work through with your fellow leaders, maybe through with your fellow leaders, maybe through with your fellow leaders, maybe with church members. It's it's called with church members. It's it's called with church members. It's it's called Forgive. And and Tim was so good on Forgive. And and Tim was so good on Forgive. And and Tim was so good on that. A lot of people don't know that that. A lot of people don't know that that. A lot of people don't know that President Bush reached out to Tim in President Bush reached out to Tim in President Bush reached out to Tim in part because he wanted to know how to part because he wanted to know how to part because he wanted to know how to forgive. I mean, you can imagine in a forgive. I mean, you can imagine in a forgive. I mean, you can imagine in a political life how much you have to political life how much you have to political life how much you have to forgive and he wanted him to help him forgive and he wanted him to help him forgive and he wanted him to help him pastorally process what he needed to do pastorally process what he needed to do pastorally process what he needed to do to forgive. And so I do think telling to forgive. And so I do think telling to forgive. And so I do think telling people at some point our church is going people at some point our church is going people at some point our church is going to disappoint you and then and then just to disappoint you and then and then just to disappoint you and then and then just saying we won't survive. And by the way, saying we won't survive. And by the way, saying we won't survive. And by the way, I'm not I'm not saying that I don't also I'm not I'm not saying that I don't also I'm not I'm not saying that I don't also have a responsibility to repentance. In have a responsibility to repentance. In have a responsibility to repentance. In that in that case, I had some repentance that in that case, I had some repentance that in that case, I had some repentance I needed to do. But without repentance, I needed to do. But without repentance, I needed to do. But without repentance, >> we should be the lead repenttor.

>> we should be the lead repenttor. >> we should be the lead repenttor. >> We should in our congregation. And and I >> We should in our congregation. And and I >> We should in our congregation. And and I don't I don't want I don't I don't want don't I don't want I don't I don't want don't I don't want I don't I don't want you as a pastor feel like every Sunday you as a pastor feel like every Sunday you as a pastor feel like every Sunday you have to get up and and you know, you have to get up and and you know, you have to get up and and you know, engage in self-defration engage in self-defration engage in self-defration over over your you know, over over your you know, over over your you know, >> I'm not I'm not smart enough to know >> I'm not I'm not smart enough to know >> I'm not I'm not smart enough to know what that word is. yourself out the what that word is. yourself out the what that word is. yourself out the window. Uh, you know, we're going to window. Uh, you know, we're going to window. Uh, you know, we're going to make plenty of mistakes, not not all of make plenty of mistakes, not not all of make plenty of mistakes, not not all of which need to be rehearsed to the which need to be rehearsed to the which need to be rehearsed to the congregation, but there need to be congregation, but there need to be congregation, but there need to be enough of the folks in the congregation enough of the folks in the congregation enough of the folks in the congregation that know the pastor can repent. He he that know the pastor can repent. He he that know the pastor can repent. He he doesn't think that he's perfect. He doesn't think that he's perfect. He doesn't think that he's perfect. He doesn't think that he always gets it doesn't think that he always gets it doesn't think that he always gets it right. He doesn't always have to get his right. He doesn't always have to get his right. He doesn't always have to get his way. He knows that he can mess up. He way. He knows that he can mess up. He way. He knows that he can mess up. He knows that he can sin and he can repent knows that he can sin and he can repent knows that he can sin and he can repent when that happens. that the congregation when that happens. that the congregation when that happens. that the congregation needs to know that because they're going needs to know that because they're going needs to know that because they're going to need to do that with one another in to need to do that with one another in to need to do that with one another in their relationships to survive and we're their relationships to survive and we're their relationships to survive and we're going to have to do it if as a family of going to have to do it if as a family of going to have to do it if as a family of the congregation. So they got to know the congregation. So they got to know the congregation. So they got to know that their pastor is going to do that that their pastor is going to do that that their pastor is going to do that too. Your ministry won't survive. Your too. Your ministry won't survive. Your too. Your ministry won't survive. Your church won't flourish if verses like church won't flourish if verses like church won't flourish if verses like love covers over a multitude of sins and love covers over a multitude of sins and love covers over a multitude of sins and it is to a man's glory to overlook an it is to a man's glory to overlook an it is to a man's glory to overlook an offense are not banners flying over the offense are not banners flying over the offense are not banners flying over the life of your church. I mean just take life of your church. I mean just take life of your church. I mean just take the topic of grumbling. Grumbling is one the topic of grumbling. Grumbling is one the topic of grumbling. Grumbling is one of those respectable sins. We tend to of those respectable sins. We tend to of those respectable sins. We tend to view it as tame, something we can view it as tame, something we can view it as tame, something we can tolerate. But grumbling is insidious to tolerate. But grumbling is insidious to tolerate. But grumbling is insidious to the heart and life of a church. It's the heart and life of a church. It's the heart and life of a church. It's like the black mold in a congregation.

like the black mold in a congregation. like the black mold in a congregation. You don't notice it until everyone is You don't notice it until everyone is You don't notice it until everyone is already sick. Uh, in fact, one of the already sick. Uh, in fact, one of the already sick. Uh, in fact, one of the things I said to our church on our things I said to our church on our things I said to our church on our one-year anniversary was that we will one-year anniversary was that we will one-year anniversary was that we will not have any future anniversaries if not have any future anniversaries if not have any future anniversaries if we're not on guard against the subtle we're not on guard against the subtle we're not on guard against the subtle corrosive power of complaining and vic corrosive power of complaining and vic corrosive power of complaining and vic and bickering because once that kind of and bickering because once that kind of and bickering because once that kind of spirit gets a foothold, it fractures spirit gets a foothold, it fractures spirit gets a foothold, it fractures unity right down the middle. And one of unity right down the middle. And one of unity right down the middle. And one of the passages that I pointed out was the passages that I pointed out was the passages that I pointed out was Jude. It's so interesting that Jude says Jude. It's so interesting that Jude says Jude. It's so interesting that Jude says starting in verse 4, "For certain starting in verse 4, "For certain starting in verse 4, "For certain individuals whose condemnation was individuals whose condemnation was individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago, have secretly written about long ago, have secretly written about long ago, have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly slipped in among you. They are ungodly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people who pervert the grace of our God people who pervert the grace of our God people who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny into a license for immorality and deny into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ, our only sovereign and Jesus Christ, our only sovereign and Jesus Christ, our only sovereign and Lord." So like this is a blistering Lord." So like this is a blistering Lord." So like this is a blistering tirade against the kind of godless, tirade against the kind of godless, tirade against the kind of godless, immoral, false teachers who were immoral, false teachers who were immoral, false teachers who were slithering into the church. And what is slithering into the church. And what is slithering into the church. And what is the climax, the crescendo of Jude's the climax, the crescendo of Jude's the climax, the crescendo of Jude's great indictment? Verse 16, these people great indictment? Verse 16, these people great indictment? Verse 16, these people are grumblers and faultfinders.

are grumblers and faultfinders. are grumblers and faultfinders. I would have expected him to say, "These I would have expected him to say, "These I would have expected him to say, "These people are heretics and murderers and people are heretics and murderers and people are heretics and murderers and adulterers." adulterers." adulterers." But he just says, "No, they complain a But he just says, "No, they complain a But he just says, "No, they complain a lot." lot." lot." >> Yeah. And Paul does the same thing in 1 >> Yeah. And Paul does the same thing in 1 >> Yeah. And Paul does the same thing in 1 Corinthians 10. Now, he hits idolatry, Corinthians 10. Now, he hits idolatry, Corinthians 10. Now, he hits idolatry, but you know, his big thing is don't be but you know, his big thing is don't be but you know, his big thing is don't be and he hits immorality, but his big and he hits immorality, but his big and he hits immorality, but his big thing is don't grumble as some of the thing is don't grumble as some of the thing is don't grumble as some of the children of Israel did in the children of Israel did in the children of Israel did in the wilderness. So, he's going to go back to wilderness. So, he's going to go back to wilderness. So, he's going to go back to the great Exodus event. the great Exodus event. the great Exodus event. >> Yes, he'll hit idolatry. Yes, he'll hit >> Yes, he'll hit idolatry. Yes, he'll hit >> Yes, he'll hit idolatry. Yes, he'll hit immorality, but grumbling is also in his immorality, but grumbling is also in his immorality, but grumbling is also in his sights. So, you're absolutely right. And sights. So, you're absolutely right. And sights. So, you're absolutely right. And in Philippians 2, do everything without in Philippians 2, do everything without in Philippians 2, do everything without grumbling or complaining. And then where grumbling or complaining. And then where grumbling or complaining. And then where does he go? He goes, "So that you may be does he go? He goes, "So that you may be does he go? He goes, "So that you may be blameless and pure children of God blameless and pure children of God blameless and pure children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved without fault in a crooked and depraved without fault in a crooked and depraved generation in which you shine like stars generation in which you shine like stars generation in which you shine like stars in the universe." In other words, what's in the universe." In other words, what's in the universe." In other words, what's his train of thought? How pervasive is his train of thought? How pervasive is his train of thought? How pervasive is complaining? How pervasive is grumbling? complaining? How pervasive is grumbling? complaining? How pervasive is grumbling? Not doing it will make you shine like a Not doing it will make you shine like a Not doing it will make you shine like a star in the universe. star in the universe. star in the universe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's how powerful it is to to have a >> That's how powerful it is to to have a >> That's how powerful it is to to have a church. The language I use among our church. The language I use among our church. The language I use among our people is, hey, let's strive to be a people is, hey, let's strive to be a people is, hey, let's strive to be a people who are easy to please and hard people who are easy to please and hard people who are easy to please and hard to offend. We live in an age of outrage, to offend. We live in an age of outrage, to offend. We live in an age of outrage, an age of cynicism. It's so easy to be an age of cynicism. It's so easy to be an age of cynicism. It's so easy to be someone who's easy to offend and hard to someone who's easy to offend and hard to someone who's easy to offend and hard to please. But by God's grace, let's be the please. But by God's grace, let's be the please. But by God's grace, let's be the reverse. The Puritan Jeremiah Burroughs reverse. The Puritan Jeremiah Burroughs reverse. The Puritan Jeremiah Burroughs uh once said this that I I've quoted to uh once said this that I I've quoted to uh once said this that I I've quoted to our people before. Rejoice in the good our people before. Rejoice in the good our people before. Rejoice in the good of others, though it eclipses your of others, though it eclipses your of others, though it eclipses your light, though it makes your abilities

light, though it makes your abilities light, though it makes your abilities and your excellencies dimmer in the eyes and your excellencies dimmer in the eyes and your excellencies dimmer in the eyes of others. Rejoice and bless God for his of others. Rejoice and bless God for his of others. Rejoice and bless God for his gifts and graces in others, that his gifts and graces in others, that his gifts and graces in others, that his name may be glorified more by others name may be glorified more by others name may be glorified more by others than I can glorify it myself. In other than I can glorify it myself. In other than I can glorify it myself. In other words, we want to be more bothered by words, we want to be more bothered by words, we want to be more bothered by our own failings than by those of our own failings than by those of our own failings than by those of others. And and we want to have the others. And and we want to have the others. And and we want to have the perspective that whatever it takes to perspective that whatever it takes to perspective that whatever it takes to see the gospel flourish and Christ to be see the gospel flourish and Christ to be see the gospel flourish and Christ to be made much of in our church. Even if that made much of in our church. Even if that made much of in our church. Even if that means I have to take a back seat. Even means I have to take a back seat. Even means I have to take a back seat. Even if that means I have to lose an argument if that means I have to lose an argument if that means I have to lose an argument or have to lay down a preference because or have to lay down a preference because or have to lay down a preference because it's better to be humble than it is to it's better to be humble than it is to it's better to be humble than it is to be right. I mean, unless we're talking be right. I mean, unless we're talking be right. I mean, unless we're talking about deity of Christ, authority of about deity of Christ, authority of about deity of Christ, authority of scripture, when it comes to these issues scripture, when it comes to these issues scripture, when it comes to these issues on which the temperature can so easily on which the temperature can so easily on which the temperature can so easily be turned up, issues on which Christians be turned up, issues on which Christians be turned up, issues on which Christians ought to be able to live with ought to be able to live with ought to be able to live with differences of conscience, room for differences of conscience, room for differences of conscience, room for disagreement, uh, it's it's it's it's disagreement, uh, it's it's it's it's disagreement, uh, it's it's it's it's far better to be humble than it is to be far better to be humble than it is to be far better to be humble than it is to be right. Any final words of wisdom that right. Any final words of wisdom that right. Any final words of wisdom that you would commend to pastors as they you would commend to pastors as they you would commend to pastors as they think about conflict and controversy?

think about conflict and controversy? think about conflict and controversy? You know, you've you've already said it. You know, you've you've already said it. You know, you've you've already said it. We as as shepherds of the flock, we We as as shepherds of the flock, we We as as shepherds of the flock, we cannot simply be conflict averse. There cannot simply be conflict averse. There cannot simply be conflict averse. There there are times where we have to be there are times where we have to be there are times where we have to be ready to stand up in conflict because ready to stand up in conflict because ready to stand up in conflict because our job is to guard the sheep. On the our job is to guard the sheep. On the our job is to guard the sheep. On the other hand, life is not just going to be other hand, life is not just going to be other hand, life is not just going to be >> Sorry to interrupt. Let me just say >> Sorry to interrupt. Let me just say >> Sorry to interrupt. Let me just say being conflict averse is shortsighted. being conflict averse is shortsighted. being conflict averse is shortsighted. I mean, sometimes we should overlook I mean, sometimes we should overlook I mean, sometimes we should overlook like like I just said, we we should like like I just said, we we should like like I just said, we we should overlook an offense. You know, we don't overlook an offense. You know, we don't overlook an offense. You know, we don't have to to rush into every potential have to to rush into every potential have to to rush into every potential conflict with fists raised. And yet, conflict with fists raised. And yet, conflict with fists raised. And yet, that hard conversation, brother, pastor, that hard conversation, brother, pastor, that hard conversation, brother, pastor, you know, you need to have kicking the you know, you need to have kicking the you know, you need to have kicking the can down the road is probably only going can down the road is probably only going can down the road is probably only going to make the controversy grow and make it to make the controversy grow and make it to make the controversy grow and make it harder to navigate. harder to navigate. harder to navigate. >> Well said. And I would say to to to >> Well said. And I would say to to to >> Well said. And I would say to to to brethren that have the instinct to wake brethren that have the instinct to wake brethren that have the instinct to wake up in the morning and try and find a up in the morning and try and find a up in the morning and try and find a hill to die on. Um remember that that hill to die on. Um remember that that hill to die on. Um remember that that very attitude in a local church or in a very attitude in a local church or in a very attitude in a local church or in a denominational setting can actually push denominational setting can actually push denominational setting can actually push brethren to be more conflict averse. You brethren to be more conflict averse. You brethren to be more conflict averse. You may actually be working to the detriment may actually be working to the detriment may actually be working to the detriment of your concern over an issue or a of your concern over an issue or a of your concern over an issue or a theological problem by your conduct in theological problem by your conduct in theological problem by your conduct in that area. And I don't want people not that area. And I don't want people not that area. And I don't want people not to care about really important things.

to care about really important things. to care about really important things. But if if you're up every single day and But if if you're up every single day and But if if you're up every single day and it's the conflict dour, you're probably it's the conflict dour, you're probably it's the conflict dour, you're probably going to there are going to be a lot of going to there are going to be a lot of going to there are going to be a lot of good men that just say, "Forget it. That good men that just say, "Forget it. That good men that just say, "Forget it. That guy is at it again. There's nothing to guy is at it again. There's nothing to guy is at it again. There's nothing to that and I'm going to go on." So even if that and I'm going to go on." So even if that and I'm going to go on." So even if if if you feel called to be bold and if if you feel called to be bold and if if you feel called to be bold and brave, you need to be careful about how brave, you need to be careful about how brave, you need to be careful about how you go about that lest you discourage you go about that lest you discourage you go about that lest you discourage people. You know, it's kind of like the people. You know, it's kind of like the people. You know, it's kind of like the crying wolf thing. You know, how many crying wolf thing. You know, how many crying wolf thing. You know, how many times can you cry wolf and still get the times can you cry wolf and still get the times can you cry wolf and still get the town to come out and fight the wolf? And town to come out and fight the wolf? And town to come out and fight the wolf? And that's something we we need to know what that's something we we need to know what that's something we we need to know what our tendencies are. You know, is is my our tendencies are. You know, is is my our tendencies are. You know, is is my tendency to shrink away from controversy tendency to shrink away from controversy tendency to shrink away from controversy or is my tendency to court controversy? or is my tendency to court controversy? or is my tendency to court controversy? We need to know ourselves. And then, you We need to know ourselves. And then, you We need to know ourselves. And then, you know, that's where the judgment of the know, that's where the judgment of the know, that's where the judgment of the brethren helps us so much. I I don't brethren helps us so much. I I don't brethren helps us so much. I I don't want to trust my own judgment on its want to trust my own judgment on its want to trust my own judgment on its own. I need the brethren to give me some own. I need the brethren to give me some own. I need the brethren to give me some balance and to think about that. And balance and to think about that. And balance and to think about that. And then we all have a plurality of godly then we all have a plurality of godly then we all have a plurality of godly elders. elders. elders. >> Oh, so good.

>> Oh, so good. >> Oh, so good. >> That don't just have symbolic authority >> That don't just have symbolic authority >> That don't just have symbolic authority in your life. in your life. in your life. >> And that has happened to me over and >> And that has happened to me over and >> And that has happened to me over and over, Matt, where I've thought, "Yeah, over, Matt, where I've thought, "Yeah, over, Matt, where I've thought, "Yeah, he's exactly right about that. I needed he's exactly right about that. I needed he's exactly right about that. I needed to hear his voice on that." So there to hear his voice on that." So there to hear his voice on that." So there there may be times when we stand up um there may be times when we stand up um there may be times when we stand up um and we're the ones that give the signal and we're the ones that give the signal and we're the ones that give the signal to everybody, yeah, this is the right to everybody, yeah, this is the right to everybody, yeah, this is the right way to go on this. But you have to be way to go on this. But you have to be way to go on this. But you have to be measured. You have to be a person who measured. You have to be a person who measured. You have to be a person who clearly loves God's people that doesn't clearly loves God's people that doesn't clearly loves God's people that doesn't just love to be right. Uh you know, just love to be right. Uh you know, just love to be right. Uh you know, isn't always the one who is picking the isn't always the one who is picking the isn't always the one who is picking the fight. Uh and when that measured voice fight. Uh and when that measured voice fight. Uh and when that measured voice stands up, it it can really speak stands up, it it can really speak stands up, it it can really speak powerfully. my my powerfully. my my powerfully. my my high school age then when I was a high high school age then when I was a high high school age then when I was a high schooler my pastor he was that kind of a schooler my pastor he was that kind of a schooler my pastor he was that kind of a person was rock solid theologically person was rock solid theologically person was rock solid theologically he was not all the one he was not always he was not all the one he was not always he was not all the one he was not always the guy in the middle of a fight in the the guy in the middle of a fight in the the guy in the middle of a fight in the presbyter meeting but when he stood up presbyter meeting but when he stood up presbyter meeting but when he stood up it was like the old EF Hutton it was like the old EF Hutton it was like the old EF Hutton commercials you don't probably don't commercials you don't probably don't commercials you don't probably don't remember these there was an old remember these there was an old remember these there was an old commercial back in the 1970s when EF commercial back in the 1970s when EF commercial back in the 1970s when EF Hutton talks people listen and he was Hutton talks people listen and he was Hutton talks people listen and he was that guy he would stand up and when he that guy he would stand up and when he that guy he would stand up and when he spoke, everybody in the presbyter on spoke, everybody in the presbyter on spoke, everybody in the presbyter on every side thought, "Okay, that's wise.

every side thought, "Okay, that's wise. every side thought, "Okay, that's wise. I really need to listen to what he I really need to listen to what he I really need to listen to what he says." And so sometimes we have to be says." And so sometimes we have to be says." And so sometimes we have to be ready to be the person to give that ready to be the person to give that ready to be the person to give that measured word in in in season and that measured word in in in season and that measured word in in in season and that helps pull people together. Ultimately, helps pull people together. Ultimately, helps pull people together. Ultimately, I think all of us need to be thinking I think all of us need to be thinking I think all of us need to be thinking even in controversy, how can I pull even in controversy, how can I pull even in controversy, how can I pull people together? It's not just how can I people together? It's not just how can I people together? It's not just how can I win. how can I pull people win. how can I pull people win. how can I pull people >> and by God's grace be the adult in the >> and by God's grace be the adult in the >> and by God's grace be the adult in the room in the sense of being that non- room in the sense of being that non- room in the sense of being that non- anxious presence anxious presence anxious presence >> right >> right >> right >> um that because it's so easy to think >> um that because it's so easy to think >> um that because it's so easy to think again depending on our temperament that again depending on our temperament that again depending on our temperament that the measure of courage is how many the measure of courage is how many the measure of courage is how many people you can call out how many people people you can call out how many people people you can call out how many people you can offend or that the measure of you can offend or that the measure of you can offend or that the measure of love is how many people you can please love is how many people you can please love is how many people you can please and the Bible says no to both and the Bible says no to both and the Bible says no to both >> that's exactly >> that's exactly >> that's exactly >> so may God give us wisdom >> so may God give us wisdom >> so may God give us wisdom >> as we seek to lead our congregations in >> as we seek to lead our congregations in >> as we seek to lead our congregations in a fallen world amid inevitable conflict a fallen world amid inevitable conflict a fallen world amid inevitable conflict that will arise. that will arise. that will arise. Thanks for listening to the Everyday Thanks for listening to the Everyday Thanks for listening to the Everyday Pastor. Uh we hope this episode has been Pastor. Uh we hope this episode has been Pastor. Uh we hope this episode has been helpful to you. Uh if you want to share helpful to you. Uh if you want to share helpful to you. Uh if you want to share it with a friend in ministry that is it with a friend in ministry that is it with a friend in ministry that is waiting through some difficult times, it waiting through some difficult times, it waiting through some difficult times, it may be of use to them. We want to help may be of use to them. We want to help may be of use to them. We want to help pastors find fresh joy in the work of pastors find fresh joy in the work of pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry.