AI and Everyday: What Are Some Practical Frameworks for Christians? [Silicon Spiritualities - Ep. 8]

Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition about podcast from the Gospel Coalition about podcast from the Gospel Coalition about what it means to be human in the age of what it means to be human in the age of what it means to be human in the age of AI. AI. AI. I'm Christopher Watin, and in this I'm Christopher Watin, and in this I'm Christopher Watin, and in this series, we're unpacking in each episode series, we're unpacking in each episode series, we're unpacking in each episode three crucial questions. What can AI do three crucial questions. What can AI do three crucial questions. What can AI do for us? What is it doing to us? and what for us? What is it doing to us? and what for us? What is it doing to us? and what is it showing us about who we really is it showing us about who we really is it showing us about who we really are? And to think through those are? And to think through those are? And to think through those questions, I'm joined today by two questions, I'm joined today by two questions, I'm joined today by two guests. Uh Michael Graham is the program guests. Uh Michael Graham is the program guests. Uh Michael Graham is the program director for the Keller Center for director for the Keller Center for director for the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics Cultural Apologetics Cultural Apologetics and Keith Plameumber is dean of the and Keith Plameumber is dean of the and Keith Plameumber is dean of the School of Divinity at Ken University, uh School of Divinity at Ken University, uh School of Divinity at Ken University, uh where he also teaches a course on where he also teaches a course on where he also teaches a course on technology and digital disciplehip. technology and digital disciplehip. technology and digital disciplehip. And together, Mike and Keith have And together, Mike and Keith have And together, Mike and Keith have collaborated on the Gospel Coalition's collaborated on the Gospel Coalition's collaborated on the Gospel Coalition's AI Christian benchmark project. So, AI Christian benchmark project. So, AI Christian benchmark project. So, they're wonderful guests to have to they're wonderful guests to have to they're wonderful guests to have to discuss these questions with us. Keith discuss these questions with us. Keith discuss these questions with us. Keith and Michael, welcome to the podcast. and Michael, welcome to the podcast. and Michael, welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks. Thanks for having >> Thanks. Thanks for having >> Thanks. Thanks for having >> good to be here. >> good to be here. >> good to be here. >> In this episode, my hope is that we're >> In this episode, my hope is that we're >> In this episode, my hope is that we're going to get uh practical. We're going going to get uh practical. We're going going to get uh practical. We're going to ask how we live wisely with AI. And to ask how we live wisely with AI. And to ask how we live wisely with AI. And so, I'd love to start uh if I could with so, I'd love to start uh if I could with so, I'd love to start uh if I could with a scenario that I' I'd like you both to a scenario that I' I'd like you both to a scenario that I' I'd like you both to respond to. Imagine respond to. Imagine respond to. Imagine it's 2028 it's 2028 it's 2028 uh and we're in a fairly typical uh and we're in a fairly typical uh and we're in a fairly typical evangelical church, let's say 300 evangelical church, let's say 300 evangelical church, let's say 300 people, couple of pastors, a small people, couple of pastors, a small people, couple of pastors, a small staff, and they call you in to give them staff, and they call you in to give them staff, and they call you in to give them advice about AI. Um they they already advice about AI. Um they they already advice about AI. Um they they already use AI for sermon research and in the

use AI for sermon research and in the use AI for sermon research and in the kids curriculum, and they use it for kids curriculum, and they use it for kids curriculum, and they use it for graphics. and several small group graphics. and several small group graphics. and several small group leaders are already leaning on AI for leaders are already leaning on AI for leaders are already leaning on AI for discussion questions and you know if you discussion questions and you know if you discussion questions and you know if you ask them um in a a private setting some ask them um in a a private setting some ask them um in a a private setting some of the members would say look you know I of the members would say look you know I of the members would say look you know I should ask my small group to pray but should ask my small group to pray but should ask my small group to pray but honestly it's just easier to pour my out honestly it's just easier to pour my out honestly it's just easier to pour my out to the AI chatbot on my phone because it to the AI chatbot on my phone because it to the AI chatbot on my phone because it never gets tired it it never judges me never gets tired it it never judges me never gets tired it it never judges me and it always responds immediately and it always responds immediately and it always responds immediately and the elders of this church they don't and the elders of this church they don't and the elders of this church they don't want to overreact want to overreact want to overreact Um but they don't want to sleepwalk into Um but they don't want to sleepwalk into Um but they don't want to sleepwalk into something that would be unhealthy for something that would be unhealthy for something that would be unhealthy for the congregation either. So they ask you the congregation either. So they ask you the congregation either. So they ask you look can you help us with some simple look can you help us with some simple look can you help us with some simple frameworks? What should be our AI frameworks? What should be our AI frameworks? What should be our AI principles as a church? So standing in principles as a church? So standing in principles as a church? So standing in this church in 2028, how do you answer this church in 2028, how do you answer this church in 2028, how do you answer those elders? What's the the first those elders? What's the the first those elders? What's the the first framework principle you put on the table framework principle you put on the table framework principle you put on the table to help them navigate this situation?

to help them navigate this situation? to help them navigate this situation? Yeah, thank you Chris. Um, I'll start by Yeah, thank you Chris. Um, I'll start by Yeah, thank you Chris. Um, I'll start by actually zooming um a little bit up from actually zooming um a little bit up from actually zooming um a little bit up from your question and into the scenario your question and into the scenario your question and into the scenario itself. Um, I would definitely caution itself. Um, I would definitely caution itself. Um, I would definitely caution the that elder group about just AI usage the that elder group about just AI usage the that elder group about just AI usage and sermon prep in general as well as and sermon prep in general as well as and sermon prep in general as well as sermon research. Um, in my opinion, it's sermon research. Um, in my opinion, it's sermon research. Um, in my opinion, it's kind of mission critical to be steeped kind of mission critical to be steeped kind of mission critical to be steeped in in the text when you're doing sermon in in the text when you're doing sermon in in the text when you're doing sermon preparation and sermon research and to preparation and sermon research and to preparation and sermon research and to be able to be able to do that with your be able to be able to do that with your be able to be able to do that with your whole person, kind of mind, body, and whole person, kind of mind, body, and whole person, kind of mind, body, and spirit. And so I think there there can spirit. And so I think there there can spirit. And so I think there there can be some help there from AI with respect be some help there from AI with respect be some help there from AI with respect to additional material that's maybe not to additional material that's maybe not to additional material that's maybe not in your physical library, but I would in your physical library, but I would in your physical library, but I would definitely stress caution there. And so definitely stress caution there. And so definitely stress caution there. And so preaching isn't just content. It's preaching isn't just content. It's preaching isn't just content. It's content poured out through personality. content poured out through personality. content poured out through personality. And so if you have too much like AI And so if you have too much like AI And so if you have too much like AI usage in your sermon prep and sermon usage in your sermon prep and sermon usage in your sermon prep and sermon research, you know, you're going to be research, you know, you're going to be research, you know, you're going to be in real danger of, you know, kind of in real danger of, you know, kind of in real danger of, you know, kind of being flat on affect story, personality, being flat on affect story, personality, being flat on affect story, personality, these different kinds of things. The these different kinds of things. The these different kinds of things. The other thing I would say is from a you other thing I would say is from a you other thing I would say is from a you know just from a broad principle state I know just from a broad principle state I know just from a broad principle state I don't think it's good for Christians to don't think it's good for Christians to don't think it's good for Christians to be using AI for relational surrogates or be using AI for relational surrogates or be using AI for relational surrogates or relational substitutes. So that would relational substitutes. So that would relational substitutes. So that would just kind of be a kind of maybe a first just kind of be a kind of maybe a first just kind of be a kind of maybe a first first of three simple filters that I first of three simple filters that I first of three simple filters that I have. Um so that would be the first have. Um so that would be the first have. Um so that would be the first filter. The second filter would be and I filter. The second filter would be and I filter. The second filter would be and I got this I got these two terms from Andy got this I got these two terms from Andy got this I got these two terms from Andy Crouch. um he didn't apply it to AI, but Crouch. um he didn't apply it to AI, but Crouch. um he didn't apply it to AI, but I'm going to apply it to AI. And and I'm going to apply it to AI. And and I'm going to apply it to AI. And and Andy Crouch basically says there's two Andy Crouch basically says there's two Andy Crouch basically says there's two kinds of work. Um there's labor and then

kinds of work. Um there's labor and then kinds of work. Um there's labor and then there's toil. And so toil is you can there's toil. And so toil is you can there's toil. And so toil is you can draw a direct line between toil and the draw a direct line between toil and the draw a direct line between toil and the fall. And labor is part of the creation fall. And labor is part of the creation fall. And labor is part of the creation or cultural mandate. And so I think or cultural mandate. And so I think or cultural mandate. And so I think broadly speaking, it's probably a good broadly speaking, it's probably a good broadly speaking, it's probably a good use of time to use AI for toil. And use of time to use AI for toil. And use of time to use AI for toil. And broadly speaking, it's probably not a broadly speaking, it's probably not a broadly speaking, it's probably not a good idea to use AI for labor or stuff good idea to use AI for labor or stuff good idea to use AI for labor or stuff that's part of the creation or cultural that's part of the creation or cultural that's part of the creation or cultural mandate. mandate. mandate. >> Could Mike, could you just clarify that >> Could Mike, could you just clarify that >> Could Mike, could you just clarify that distinction? So, what what in an average distinction? So, what what in an average distinction? So, what what in an average day, what what is labor in my life and day, what what is labor in my life and day, what what is labor in my life and what is toil? what is toil? what is toil? >> Yeah, this kind of goes back to the that >> Yeah, this kind of goes back to the that >> Yeah, this kind of goes back to the that one Supreme Court um question of like, one Supreme Court um question of like, one Supreme Court um question of like, hey, how do you define pornography? you hey, how do you define pornography? you hey, how do you define pornography? you know, and the Supreme Court uh uh uh know, and the Supreme Court uh uh uh know, and the Supreme Court uh uh uh justice said, "I I know it when I see justice said, "I I know it when I see justice said, "I I know it when I see it." Like, I think instinctively from an it." Like, I think instinctively from an it." Like, I think instinctively from an intuition standpoint, we know the intuition standpoint, we know the intuition standpoint, we know the difference between toil and labor. And difference between toil and labor. And difference between toil and labor. And so I think when we see things that so I think when we see things that so I think when we see things that aren't relational in nature and where aren't relational in nature and where aren't relational in nature and where we're not disrespecting anybody by doing we're not disrespecting anybody by doing we're not disrespecting anybody by doing something electronically, you know, with something electronically, you know, with something electronically, you know, with technology rather than um doing it in, technology rather than um doing it in, technology rather than um doing it in, you know, more, you know, with our own you know, more, you know, with our own you know, more, you know, with our own mind and our own thoughts and all of our mind and our own thoughts and all of our mind and our own thoughts and all of our wisdom that that's brought to bear. So I wisdom that that's brought to bear. So I wisdom that that's brought to bear. So I think stuff that it fits under the think stuff that it fits under the think stuff that it fits under the creation and cultural mandate often creation and cultural mandate often creation and cultural mandate often involves wisdom. And so wisdom is involves wisdom. And so wisdom is involves wisdom. And so wisdom is something that I'm not really sure something that I'm not really sure something that I'm not really sure that large language models really that large language models really that large language models really possess because and maybe this is kind

possess because and maybe this is kind possess because and maybe this is kind of a self-defined um like tatlogical um of a self-defined um like tatlogical um of a self-defined um like tatlogical um but for me wisdom's embodied by nature. but for me wisdom's embodied by nature. but for me wisdom's embodied by nature. Therefore Therefore Therefore I'm not sure AI can ever possess wisdom. I'm not sure AI can ever possess wisdom. I'm not sure AI can ever possess wisdom. Okay. So, and this is the difference Okay. So, and this is the difference Okay. So, and this is the difference between like between like between like the the difference between a map and and the the difference between a map and and the the difference between a map and and I'll talk about more of this later, but I'll talk about more of this later, but I'll talk about more of this later, but the difference between a map and the difference between a map and the difference between a map and actually being at a place. So, I'll actually being at a place. So, I'll actually being at a place. So, I'll leave that though for later in the leave that though for later in the leave that though for later in the interview. The the third filter for me, interview. The the third filter for me, interview. The the third filter for me, I got this from James Kelly at Faith I got this from James Kelly at Faith I got this from James Kelly at Faith Tech. Um, AI is at its best when it Tech. Um, AI is at its best when it Tech. Um, AI is at its best when it seeks to imitate the communicable seeks to imitate the communicable seeks to imitate the communicable attributes of God. Those are the things attributes of God. Those are the things attributes of God. Those are the things that we know about God from creation that we know about God from creation that we know about God from creation like knowledge, wisdom, righteousness, like knowledge, wisdom, righteousness, like knowledge, wisdom, righteousness, goodness, mercy, those kinds of things. goodness, mercy, those kinds of things. goodness, mercy, those kinds of things. These are attributes of God that humans These are attributes of God that humans These are attributes of God that humans also possess. AI is at its worst and also possess. AI is at its worst and also possess. AI is at its worst and should not be used when it's trying to should not be used when it's trying to should not be used when it's trying to mirror or imitate the incommunicable mirror or imitate the incommunicable mirror or imitate the incommunicable attributes of God. So this would be attributes of God. So this would be attributes of God. So this would be things like the essay of God, God's things like the essay of God, God's things like the essay of God, God's self-existence, the immutability of God, self-existence, the immutability of God, self-existence, the immutability of God, the fact that God doesn't change, the the fact that God doesn't change, the the fact that God doesn't change, the infinity of God, um his simplicity, and infinity of God, um his simplicity, and infinity of God, um his simplicity, and of course all the omnis. So all of course all the omnis. So all of course all the omnis. So all powerful, all knowing, all present. And powerful, all knowing, all present. And powerful, all knowing, all present. And so you know, those are the three filters so you know, those are the three filters so you know, those are the three filters that I'm asking for myself is, is this a that I'm asking for myself is, is this a that I'm asking for myself is, is this a relational shortcut?

relational shortcut? relational shortcut? [snorts] Is this am I using this for [snorts] Is this am I using this for [snorts] Is this am I using this for labor or toil? and am I using the you labor or toil? and am I using the you labor or toil? and am I using the you know the technology in a way that's know the technology in a way that's know the technology in a way that's consistent with the communicable consistent with the communicable consistent with the communicable attributes of God and not attributes of God and not attributes of God and not incommunicable. So those are the three incommunicable. So those are the three incommunicable. So those are the three filters that I use and if you get beyond filters that I use and if you get beyond filters that I use and if you get beyond those three filters you know I think those three filters you know I think those three filters you know I think you're probably 90% of scenarios from you're probably 90% of scenarios from you're probably 90% of scenarios from there you're probably okay. So those are there you're probably okay. So those are there you're probably okay. So those are the three filters that I use when you the three filters that I use when you the three filters that I use when you know every time before I'm choosing to know every time before I'm choosing to know every time before I'm choosing to you know put in a prompt. you know put in a prompt. you know put in a prompt. >> That's incredibly helpful. We we we all >> That's incredibly helpful. We we we all >> That's incredibly helpful. We we we all need something just off the shelf, don't need something just off the shelf, don't need something just off the shelf, don't we? We need somewhere to start with we? We need somewhere to start with we? We need somewhere to start with this. And that's a really helpful place this. And that's a really helpful place this. And that's a really helpful place to start. Keith, anything you'd add to to start. Keith, anything you'd add to to start. Keith, anything you'd add to to what Mike's just shared? to what Mike's just shared? to what Mike's just shared? >> Yes. Um what Mike was saying about >> Yes. Um what Mike was saying about >> Yes. Um what Mike was saying about wisdom, I agree with him that wisdom is wisdom, I agree with him that wisdom is wisdom, I agree with him that wisdom is embodied. And of course, from a biblical embodied. And of course, from a biblical embodied. And of course, from a biblical standpoint, wisdom begins with the fear standpoint, wisdom begins with the fear standpoint, wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord. And so, um to ask whether of the Lord. And so, um to ask whether of the Lord. And so, um to ask whether AI possesses wisdom, I would say, well, AI possesses wisdom, I would say, well, AI possesses wisdom, I would say, well, in that regard, no. Could it be used to in that regard, no. Could it be used to in that regard, no. Could it be used to communicate communicate communicate wisdom that has been gained from someone wisdom that has been gained from someone wisdom that has been gained from someone who's embodied and uh fears the Lord?

who's embodied and uh fears the Lord? who's embodied and uh fears the Lord? Perhaps. But as for AI itself being wise Perhaps. But as for AI itself being wise Perhaps. But as for AI itself being wise and being a source of wisdom, I I would and being a source of wisdom, I I would and being a source of wisdom, I I would say no. Um, I as I thought about the say no. Um, I as I thought about the say no. Um, I as I thought about the scenario, I wish that the call for help scenario, I wish that the call for help scenario, I wish that the call for help had come maybe a little bit earlier had come maybe a little bit earlier had come maybe a little bit earlier because they've already begun using AI because they've already begun using AI because they've already begun using AI in the sermon prep and the curriculum in the sermon prep and the curriculum in the sermon prep and the curriculum development and so forth. And though I development and so forth. And though I development and so forth. And though I might not say this to them at the might not say this to them at the might not say this to them at the moment, that would be in my mind in moment, that would be in my mind in moment, that would be in my mind in terms of what kind of deliberation went terms of what kind of deliberation went terms of what kind of deliberation went into those decisions because that has into those decisions because that has into those decisions because that has been modeled in some respect to the been modeled in some respect to the been modeled in some respect to the congregation. And so I I would be congregation. And so I I would be congregation. And so I I would be concerned about that. And I would say, concerned about that. And I would say, concerned about that. And I would say, and this is in keeping with some of the and this is in keeping with some of the and this is in keeping with some of the things that Mike was saying, we should things that Mike was saying, we should things that Mike was saying, we should not rely upon not rely upon not rely upon AI or other machinery for what God AI or other machinery for what God AI or other machinery for what God created us to need other people for. And created us to need other people for. And created us to need other people for. And so that relational aspect is is so that relational aspect is is so that relational aspect is is critical. And you know a lot of times critical. And you know a lot of times critical. And you know a lot of times the way we approach these questions the way we approach these questions the way we approach these questions particularly in pastoral ministry is particularly in pastoral ministry is particularly in pastoral ministry is well will using AI in this way help me well will using AI in this way help me well will using AI in this way help me in terms of the reduction of my sermon in terms of the reduction of my sermon in terms of the reduction of my sermon prep dealing with some of the um you prep dealing with some of the um you prep dealing with some of the um you know mundane and not always desirable know mundane and not always desirable know mundane and not always desirable things like answering emails and so things like answering emails and so things like answering emails and so forth. And um one of the one of the forth. And um one of the one of the forth. And um one of the one of the things that I would really recommend to things that I would really recommend to things that I would really recommend to this group, I I read this essay recently this group, I I read this essay recently this group, I I read this essay recently from someone named uh David Neielen and

from someone named uh David Neielen and from someone named uh David Neielen and it is titled why pastors should question it is titled why pastors should question it is titled why pastors should question AI for the sake of their souls. AI for the sake of their souls. AI for the sake of their souls. And he in this essay brings out how it And he in this essay brings out how it And he in this essay brings out how it is that those questions about well how is that those questions about well how is that those questions about well how will AI help me to be more efficient and will AI help me to be more efficient and will AI help me to be more efficient and precise and so forth in pastoral precise and so forth in pastoral precise and so forth in pastoral ministry are diversionary ministry are diversionary ministry are diversionary because they keep us or they can keep us because they keep us or they can keep us because they keep us or they can keep us from asking more important questions from asking more important questions from asking more important questions such as how might use of this be such as how might use of this be such as how might use of this be impeding the formation of virtues and impeding the formation of virtues and impeding the formation of virtues and the fruit of the spirit in my life such the fruit of the spirit in my life such the fruit of the spirit in my life such as patience, as patience, as patience, uh, perseverance uh, perseverance uh, perseverance and and so forth. So, um, those are some and and so forth. So, um, those are some and and so forth. So, um, those are some of the things that I would say and I I of the things that I would say and I I of the things that I would say and I I would say would say would say any discussion or deliberation about how any discussion or deliberation about how any discussion or deliberation about how it is that we make use of AI in the it is that we make use of AI in the it is that we make use of AI in the church or in our individual lives has to church or in our individual lives has to church or in our individual lives has to be deeply embedded in a rich, broad, and be deeply embedded in a rich, broad, and be deeply embedded in a rich, broad, and deep doctrine of of humanity.

deep doctrine of of humanity. deep doctrine of of humanity. And And And of course, prior to that, there has to of course, prior to that, there has to of course, prior to that, there has to be a real sound doctrine of God. But um be a real sound doctrine of God. But um be a real sound doctrine of God. But um those are the kinds of things that I those are the kinds of things that I those are the kinds of things that I would I would urge them to to consider. would I would urge them to to consider. would I would urge them to to consider. >> That is so incredibly helpful. I I think >> That is so incredibly helpful. I I think >> That is so incredibly helpful. I I think what I found really what I found really what I found really grounding about what you just said, grounding about what you just said, grounding about what you just said, Keith, was that you you reminded us that Keith, was that you you reminded us that Keith, was that you you reminded us that every work done through us is also a every work done through us is also a every work done through us is also a work done in us. So when I write a work done in us. So when I write a work done in us. So when I write a sermon, it's not just the product, it's sermon, it's not just the product, it's sermon, it's not just the product, it's what it does to me. It's how it forms what it does to me. It's how it forms what it does to me. It's how it forms and changes me and makes me the sort of and changes me and makes me the sort of and changes me and makes me the sort of person who can, you know, pastor a person who can, you know, pastor a person who can, you know, pastor a flock. Um, and that one of the dangers flock. Um, and that one of the dangers flock. Um, and that one of the dangers with AI perhaps is that we we focus only with AI perhaps is that we we focus only with AI perhaps is that we we focus only on the work done through us and we on the work done through us and we on the work done through us and we forget the work done in us. um which forget the work done in us. um which forget the work done in us. um which biblically speaking I might even go as biblically speaking I might even go as biblically speaking I might even go as far to say as is is a work of equal far to say as is is a work of equal far to say as is is a work of equal importance if not greater importance. importance if not greater importance. importance if not greater importance. >> So so thank you. Um the the 2028 church >> So so thank you. Um the the 2028 church >> So so thank you. Um the the 2028 church is is thoroughly informed now. We is is thoroughly informed now. We is is thoroughly informed now. We [laughter] can let them go and put those [laughter] can let them go and put those [laughter] can let them go and put those uh principles into practice. In in the uh principles into practice. In in the uh principles into practice. In in the introduction, I mentioned that both of introduction, I mentioned that both of introduction, I mentioned that both of you have been involved in this AI you have been involved in this AI you have been involved in this AI benchmark project with the Gospel benchmark project with the Gospel benchmark project with the Gospel Coalition. And Mike, I' I'd love you Coalition. And Mike, I' I'd love you Coalition. And Mike, I' I'd love you just to introduce that to us for people just to introduce that to us for people just to introduce that to us for people who who might not heard of this. What who who might not heard of this. What who who might not heard of this. What was the benchmark project? What were you was the benchmark project? What were you was the benchmark project? What were you trying to achieve? And just just give us trying to achieve? And just just give us trying to achieve? And just just give us a couple of headlines. What did it a couple of headlines. What did it a couple of headlines. What did it reveal?

reveal? reveal? >> Yeah, so the AI Christian benchmark um >> Yeah, so the AI Christian benchmark um >> Yeah, so the AI Christian benchmark um you can read the whole report at the URL you can read the whole report at the URL you can read the whole report at the URL Christianbenchmark. Christianbenchmark. Christianbenchmark. I it's Christianbenchmark.ai. I it's Christianbenchmark.ai. I it's Christianbenchmark.ai. Um we wanted to test how the major Um we wanted to test how the major Um we wanted to test how the major models um did on very basic questions models um did on very basic questions models um did on very basic questions about the Christian faith. So questions about the Christian faith. So questions about the Christian faith. So questions these are questions that people have these are questions that people have these are questions that people have historically Googled. These are seven of historically Googled. These are seven of historically Googled. These are seven of the top 10 questions that people have the top 10 questions that people have the top 10 questions that people have historically Googled. So questions like historically Googled. So questions like historically Googled. So questions like what is the gospel? Did Jesus raise from what is the gospel? Did Jesus raise from what is the gospel? Did Jesus raise from the dead? Um is the Bible reliable? And the dead? Um is the Bible reliable? And the dead? Um is the Bible reliable? And so um there were a couple things that so um there were a couple things that so um there were a couple things that were really surprising about what we were really surprising about what we were really surprising about what we learned. um there were much wider learned. um there were much wider learned. um there were much wider differences between uh on theological differences between uh on theological differences between uh on theological reliability between the platforms that reliability between the platforms that reliability between the platforms that we saw and we weren't expecting that and we saw and we weren't expecting that and we saw and we weren't expecting that and we really weren't expecting for one of we really weren't expecting for one of we really weren't expecting for one of the Chinese models Deepseek R1 to have the Chinese models Deepseek R1 to have the Chinese models Deepseek R1 to have the highest um theological reliability the highest um theological reliability the highest um theological reliability of all the platforms especially knowing of all the platforms especially knowing of all the platforms especially knowing that the Chinese Communist Party that the Chinese Communist Party that the Chinese Communist Party actively censors the platform and so actively censors the platform and so actively censors the platform and so this led us to do a lot of examination this led us to do a lot of examination this led us to do a lot of examination as to why there was such great variation as to why there was such great variation as to why there was such great variation kind of between the platforms and it kind of between the platforms and it kind of between the platforms and it really the reasons why they were so really the reasons why they were so really the reasons why they were so different really boiled down to two very different really boiled down to two very different really boiled down to two very specific human ccentric things and those specific human ccentric things and those specific human ccentric things and those two things were first what's known as two things were first what's known as two things were first what's known as alignment filters and second what's alignment filters and second what's alignment filters and second what's known as citation preferences now if you known as citation preferences now if you known as citation preferences now if you want to know a lot more about this just want to know a lot more about this just want to know a lot more about this just go to christianbenchmark.ai AI and read go to christianbenchmark.ai AI and read go to christianbenchmark.ai AI and read the report. But very basically, the report. But very basically, the report. But very basically, alignment filters, every model has 12 to alignment filters, every model has 12 to alignment filters, every model has 12 to 18 filters that from when you type in a

18 filters that from when you type in a 18 filters that from when you type in a prompt and when words show up on your prompt and when words show up on your prompt and when words show up on your screen, those 12 to 18 filters, um, screen, those 12 to 18 filters, um, screen, those 12 to 18 filters, um, every response has to go through them every response has to go through them every response has to go through them before anything shows up. And all those before anything shows up. And all those before anything shows up. And all those filters were designed by humans and of filters were designed by humans and of filters were designed by humans and of course shaped by their values, their course shaped by their values, their course shaped by their values, their ethics, their experiences, those kinds ethics, their experiences, those kinds ethics, their experiences, those kinds of things. And then the second thing, of things. And then the second thing, of things. And then the second thing, citation preferences. So every model has citation preferences. So every model has citation preferences. So every model has to give weights to what parts of the to give weights to what parts of the to give weights to what parts of the internet or other parts of its training internet or other parts of its training internet or other parts of its training that you know in terms of you know how that you know in terms of you know how that you know in terms of you know how frequently does it want to site certain frequently does it want to site certain frequently does it want to site certain places and look every every type of places and look every every type of places and look every every type of content has its own unique quirks. So content has its own unique quirks. So content has its own unique quirks. So think about like the difference between think about like the difference between think about like the difference between a platform like Reddit and say a platform like Reddit and say a platform like Reddit and say Wikipedia. Those are very different Wikipedia. Those are very different Wikipedia. Those are very different platforms. And so when when a particular platforms. And so when when a particular platforms. And so when when a particular model prizes one of those, you know, model prizes one of those, you know, model prizes one of those, you know, types of content over the other, it's types of content over the other, it's types of content over the other, it's going to have a difference, you know, going to have a difference, you know, going to have a difference, you know, and impact in kind of the output that and impact in kind of the output that and impact in kind of the output that kind of comes from there. kind of comes from there. kind of comes from there. >> It is crazy, isn't it, to think that you >> It is crazy, isn't it, to think that you >> It is crazy, isn't it, to think that you ask a a straightforward question like, ask a a straightforward question like, ask a a straightforward question like, did Jesus rise from the dead? And the did Jesus rise from the dead? And the did Jesus rise from the dead? And the these different models that each of them these different models that each of them these different models that each of them have been sort of trained on the whole have been sort of trained on the whole have been sort of trained on the whole internet will give you radically internet will give you radically internet will give you radically different responses to that question different responses to that question different responses to that question because of the the the way that they've because of the the the way that they've because of the the the way that they've been trained by humans. Get help us been trained by humans. Get help us been trained by humans. Get help us Mike. What should Christians take away Mike. What should Christians take away Mike. What should Christians take away from that? Like should we all be users from that? Like should we all be users from that? Like should we all be users of Deep Seek R1 and and stay away from of Deep Seek R1 and and stay away from of Deep Seek R1 and and stay away from the other models? What what do we what the other models? What what do we what the other models? What what do we what should we conclude as sort of normal should we conclude as sort of normal should we conclude as sort of normal Christians using LLM from your benchmark

Christians using LLM from your benchmark Christians using LLM from your benchmark project? Yeah, definitely don't use project? Yeah, definitely don't use project? Yeah, definitely don't use DeepSeek because of the Chinese DeepSeek because of the Chinese DeepSeek because of the Chinese censorship piece and um they're probably censorship piece and um they're probably censorship piece and um they're probably definitely feeding your data to the definitely feeding your data to the definitely feeding your data to the Chinese Communist Party. Um I do think Chinese Communist Party. Um I do think Chinese Communist Party. Um I do think there's probably four big takeaways from there's probably four big takeaways from there's probably four big takeaways from the Christian Benchmark um report. So the Christian Benchmark um report. So the Christian Benchmark um report. So the first would be and I think we we the first would be and I think we we the first would be and I think we we really haven't reckoned with this yet as really haven't reckoned with this yet as really haven't reckoned with this yet as you know as humanity and that's you know as humanity and that's you know as humanity and that's basically the idea that as creatures basically the idea that as creatures basically the idea that as creatures we're moving away from acquiring we're moving away from acquiring we're moving away from acquiring knowledge from directly from primary knowledge from directly from primary knowledge from directly from primary sources to acquiring knowledge sources to acquiring knowledge sources to acquiring knowledge indirectly indirectly indirectly from secondary sources all mediated by from secondary sources all mediated by from secondary sources all mediated by generative AI. And so I don't think generative AI. And so I don't think generative AI. And so I don't think we've really reckoned with all that. And we've really reckoned with all that. And we've really reckoned with all that. And that really kind of places especially that really kind of places especially that really kind of places especially Silicon Valley in a place of a kind of Silicon Valley in a place of a kind of Silicon Valley in a place of a kind of intermediary high priest between intermediary high priest between intermediary high priest between humanity and knowledge. And so that's humanity and knowledge. And so that's humanity and knowledge. And so that's that's the first thing is basically that's the first thing is basically that's the first thing is basically realizing that how humans acquire realizing that how humans acquire realizing that how humans acquire knowledge is actually shifting very fast knowledge is actually shifting very fast knowledge is actually shifting very fast and in a totally new direction for the and in a totally new direction for the and in a totally new direction for the history of you know the human race. The history of you know the human race. The history of you know the human race. The second thing is that large language second thing is that large language second thing is that large language models like GPT, Gemini, um, uh, Claude, models like GPT, Gemini, um, uh, Claude, models like GPT, Gemini, um, uh, Claude, they're better at leftrain content they're better at leftrain content they're better at leftrain content that's high consensus.

that's high consensus. that's high consensus. Okay? So, in other words, analytical Okay? So, in other words, analytical Okay? So, in other words, analytical stuff that where there's not much stuff that where there's not much stuff that where there's not much disagreement between people. So, stuff disagreement between people. So, stuff disagreement between people. So, stuff like computer coding and accounting and like computer coding and accounting and like computer coding and accounting and history and medicine, stuff like that. history and medicine, stuff like that. history and medicine, stuff like that. But those same models struggle on right But those same models struggle on right But those same models struggle on right brain content that is low consensus. And brain content that is low consensus. And brain content that is low consensus. And so we kind of have to have like a slider so we kind of have to have like a slider so we kind of have to have like a slider adjuster in our own heads when we're adjuster in our own heads when we're adjuster in our own heads when we're using like large language models that using like large language models that using like large language models that you have to really kind of ask yourself you have to really kind of ask yourself you have to really kind of ask yourself am is is my question that I'm asking in am is is my question that I'm asking in am is is my question that I'm asking in the sweet spot of this technology or is the sweet spot of this technology or is the sweet spot of this technology or is am I you know asking it about something am I you know asking it about something am I you know asking it about something that where it's going to more struggle that where it's going to more struggle that where it's going to more struggle and so and then your level of confidence and so and then your level of confidence and so and then your level of confidence in that material needs to be adjusted in that material needs to be adjusted in that material needs to be adjusted according accordingly. So that's the according accordingly. So that's the according accordingly. So that's the second thing. So left brain content second thing. So left brain content second thing. So left brain content that's high consensus versus right brain that's high consensus versus right brain that's high consensus versus right brain content that's low consensus. The third content that's low consensus. The third content that's low consensus. The third thing is from that report is that thing is from that report is that thing is from that report is that there's way more humans involved in your there's way more humans involved in your there's way more humans involved in your AI than what you know and understand.

AI than what you know and understand. AI than what you know and understand. And so you really need to read the And so you really need to read the And so you really need to read the Christian benchmark that report to like Christian benchmark that report to like Christian benchmark that report to like really kind of really plum those depths really kind of really plum those depths really kind of really plum those depths and really recognize what's going on and really recognize what's going on and really recognize what's going on there. 32 of the 36 different types of there. 32 of the 36 different types of there. 32 of the 36 different types of alignment filters are all human authored alignment filters are all human authored alignment filters are all human authored and 100% of citation preferences are and 100% of citation preferences are and 100% of citation preferences are human authored. So then the fourth thing human authored. So then the fourth thing human authored. So then the fourth thing I would say from that report is um I would say from that report is um I would say from that report is um prompt engineering is really important. prompt engineering is really important. prompt engineering is really important. Okay. Well, what's prompt engineering? Okay. Well, what's prompt engineering? Okay. Well, what's prompt engineering? Okay, I'm glad you asked. Um this is Okay, I'm glad you asked. Um this is Okay, I'm glad you asked. Um this is where you don't just ask a question, but where you don't just ask a question, but where you don't just ask a question, but you add additional context to that you add additional context to that you add additional context to that question. So instead of asking, you question. So instead of asking, you question. So instead of asking, you know, did Jesus raise from the dead, know, did Jesus raise from the dead, know, did Jesus raise from the dead, you'd ask a question like, did Jesus you'd ask a question like, did Jesus you'd ask a question like, did Jesus raise from the dead? And make your raise from the dead? And make your raise from the dead? And make your response consistent with the reformed response consistent with the reformed response consistent with the reformed creeds and confessions of faith or make creeds and confessions of faith or make creeds and confessions of faith or make it consistent with the Westminster it consistent with the Westminster it consistent with the Westminster confession of faith or, you know, confession of faith or, you know, confession of faith or, you know, Baptist faith and message 2000 or, you Baptist faith and message 2000 or, you Baptist faith and message 2000 or, you know, the TGC foundation documents, know, the TGC foundation documents, know, the TGC foundation documents, whatever. So those [snorts] are the four whatever. So those [snorts] are the four whatever. So those [snorts] are the four things that I would say is moving from things that I would say is moving from things that I would say is moving from primary sources to secondary sources.

primary sources to secondary sources. primary sources to secondary sources. know what large language models are good know what large language models are good know what large language models are good at and what they're not as good at yet. at and what they're not as good at yet. at and what they're not as good at yet. Um, know that there's more humans Um, know that there's more humans Um, know that there's more humans involved in your AI than what you involved in your AI than what you involved in your AI than what you probably understand right now. And then probably understand right now. And then probably understand right now. And then know that prompt engineering is pretty know that prompt engineering is pretty know that prompt engineering is pretty important. important. important. >> Thank you. That is a really helpful set >> Thank you. That is a really helpful set >> Thank you. That is a really helpful set of principles just to begin to orient of principles just to begin to orient of principles just to begin to orient ourselves in in relation to this uh ourselves in in relation to this uh ourselves in in relation to this uh these ideas. Keith, I'd love to hear these ideas. Keith, I'd love to hear these ideas. Keith, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the the benchmark your thoughts on the the benchmark your thoughts on the the benchmark project that that you were also project that that you were also project that that you were also intimately involved in. Were there any intimately involved in. Were there any intimately involved in. Were there any theological or pastoral alarm bells that theological or pastoral alarm bells that theological or pastoral alarm bells that went off for you as you were reading went off for you as you were reading went off for you as you were reading these results or or perhaps even any these results or or perhaps even any these results or or perhaps even any opportunities that you see for opportunities that you see for opportunities that you see for Christians? Christians? Christians? >> Well, technically I have to say I wasn't >> Well, technically I have to say I wasn't >> Well, technically I have to say I wasn't intimately involved with it. I my intimately involved with it. I my intimately involved with it. I my involvement with the benchmark project involvement with the benchmark project involvement with the benchmark project was more my interaction with Mike after was more my interaction with Mike after was more my interaction with Mike after it, but I wasn't one of the um people it, but I wasn't one of the um people it, but I wasn't one of the um people who were really implementing it or or um who were really implementing it or or um who were really implementing it or or um conducting the studies. But one of the conducting the studies. But one of the conducting the studies. But one of the things that really set off red flags for things that really set off red flags for things that really set off red flags for me was just what Mike was talking about me was just what Mike was talking about me was just what Mike was talking about in terms of the level of human in terms of the level of human in terms of the level of human involvement that is there because I involvement that is there because I involvement that is there because I think people tend to go to um the the think people tend to go to um the the think people tend to go to um the the computer to the internet. you're going computer to the internet. you're going computer to the internet. you're going to large language models and there's the to large language models and there's the to large language models and there's the assumption that I'm just putting in a assumption that I'm just putting in a assumption that I'm just putting in a prompt and I'm getting back a neutral prompt and I'm getting back a neutral prompt and I'm getting back a neutral objective just the facts response and objective just the facts response and objective just the facts response and I'm not as aware of that I'm dealing I'm not as aware of that I'm dealing I'm not as aware of that I'm dealing with certain decisions that have been

with certain decisions that have been with certain decisions that have been made that are as Mike said going to skew made that are as Mike said going to skew made that are as Mike said going to skew things in particular directions and I things in particular directions and I things in particular directions and I think we just afford computers this think we just afford computers this think we just afford computers this degree of almost omniscience and that degree of almost omniscience and that degree of almost omniscience and that they are just giving us um the the they are just giving us um the the they are just giving us um the the barebone facts. And so I I think that barebone facts. And so I I think that barebone facts. And so I I think that that is something that we have to just that is something that we have to just that is something that we have to just constantly keep before ourselves and one constantly keep before ourselves and one constantly keep before ourselves and one another. And I think in order to resist another. And I think in order to resist another. And I think in order to resist that, we've got to prioritize pouring that, we've got to prioritize pouring that, we've got to prioritize pouring over the scriptures with each other and over the scriptures with each other and over the scriptures with each other and being available to non-Christians, being available to non-Christians, being available to non-Christians, living in ways that are going to provoke living in ways that are going to provoke living in ways that are going to provoke questions and being available to them to questions and being available to them to questions and being available to them to answer the questions that they they answer the questions that they they answer the questions that they they might have. This is going to be an might have. This is going to be an might have. This is going to be an ongoing necessity for for Christians in ongoing necessity for for Christians in ongoing necessity for for Christians in this climate. this climate. this climate. >> Indeed, it is. And I guess increasingly >> Indeed, it is. And I guess increasingly >> Indeed, it is. And I guess increasingly we're going to have to wrestle and we're going to have to wrestle and we're going to have to wrestle and reckon with the fact that when people reckon with the fact that when people reckon with the fact that when people have questions like is there a god? The have questions like is there a god? The have questions like is there a god? The first place they're going to ask those first place they're going to ask those first place they're going to ask those questions is to the large language model questions is to the large language model questions is to the large language model of their choice and they're going to get of their choice and they're going to get of their choice and they're going to get whatever curated response whatever curated response whatever curated response humans have you know sort of predispose humans have you know sort of predispose humans have you know sort of predispose it to give in the ways that you've uh it to give in the ways that you've uh it to give in the ways that you've uh you've very helpfully laid out for us you've very helpfully laid out for us you've very helpfully laid out for us there. and and one of the things that um there. and and one of the things that um there. and and one of the things that um comes up in the benchmark project is the comes up in the benchmark project is the comes up in the benchmark project is the degree to which some of the models are degree to which some of the models are degree to which some of the models are trying to give uh you know a a both trying to give uh you know a a both trying to give uh you know a a both sides sides sides response. And one another thing that we

response. And one another thing that we response. And one another thing that we have to keep in mind is the the have to keep in mind is the the have to keep in mind is the the incentive that there is in some cases incentive that there is in some cases incentive that there is in some cases not to offend to not take a position and not to offend to not take a position and not to offend to not take a position and therefore to put forth something that um therefore to put forth something that um therefore to put forth something that um though it might use a lot of words though it might use a lot of words though it might use a lot of words doesn't really come down anywhere doesn't really come down anywhere doesn't really come down anywhere definitively. definitively. definitively. And um there is there's reason for that And um there is there's reason for that And um there is there's reason for that in many cases so as not to alienate in many cases so as not to alienate in many cases so as not to alienate offend. Um, so that's another another offend. Um, so that's another another offend. Um, so that's another another thing thing thing >> that's so helpful. And it it's it >> that's so helpful. And it it's it >> that's so helpful. And it it's it reminds you, doesn't it, that the reminds you, doesn't it, that the reminds you, doesn't it, that the context here is that the fundamental context here is that the fundamental context here is that the fundamental value of these LLM is they want to keep value of these LLM is they want to keep value of these LLM is they want to keep you on the platform so you keep you on the platform so you keep you on the platform so you keep subscribing and pay money to the subscribing and pay money to the subscribing and pay money to the corporation that's building them. That corporation that's building them. That corporation that's building them. That that is the bottom line. And so they that is the bottom line. And so they that is the bottom line. And so they will necessarily at some level be giving will necessarily at some level be giving will necessarily at some level be giving you answers that make you do that, which you answers that make you do that, which you answers that make you do that, which is very different to asking a friend of is very different to asking a friend of is very different to asking a friend of yours, is there a god? that's not what yours, is there a god? that's not what yours, is there a god? that's not what they're motivated by hopefully if they're motivated by hopefully if they're motivated by hopefully if they're a true Christian fed when you they're a true Christian fed when you they're a true Christian fed when you ask them. So it's it's a very very ask them. So it's it's a very very ask them. So it's it's a very very different thing to ask an LLM that different thing to ask an LLM that different thing to ask an LLM that question than it is to ask a a Christian question than it is to ask a a Christian question than it is to ask a a Christian friend that question. Um, friend that question. Um, friend that question. Um, Mike, just before we leave the the Mike, just before we leave the the Mike, just before we leave the the benchmark, I' I'd love to hear any benchmark, I' I'd love to hear any benchmark, I' I'd love to hear any reflections that you have on how it reflections that you have on how it reflections that you have on how it relates to the the other major project relates to the the other major project relates to the the other major project that you've been involved in in recent that you've been involved in in recent that you've been involved in in recent years, the the Great Depurching Survey years, the the Great Depurching Survey years, the the Great Depurching Survey and then the the Great Durching book and then the the Great Durching book and then the the Great Durching book where you're you're mapping the the where you're you're mapping the the where you're you're mapping the the massive loss of trust in churches and

massive loss of trust in churches and massive loss of trust in churches and institutions, the the the way in which institutions, the the the way in which institutions, the the the way in which people have left the church and might be people have left the church and might be people have left the church and might be brought back. brought back. brought back. when you overlay AI on that landscape, when you overlay AI on that landscape, when you overlay AI on that landscape, do do you see AI accelerating do do you see AI accelerating do do you see AI accelerating dechurching trends or or do you think it dechurching trends or or do you think it dechurching trends or or do you think it might actually help local churches if might actually help local churches if might actually help local churches if it's used wisely? it's used wisely? it's used wisely? >> Yeah. So, I think the answer to this >> Yeah. So, I think the answer to this >> Yeah. So, I think the answer to this question is it's complex. Okay. And it's question is it's complex. Okay. And it's question is it's complex. Okay. And it's a good question to ask. So, I can only a good question to ask. So, I can only a good question to ask. So, I can only speak to basically churchgoing in speak to basically churchgoing in speak to basically churchgoing in America. So, I can't speak, you know, America. So, I can't speak, you know, America. So, I can't speak, you know, globally to this issue. And America is a globally to this issue. And America is a globally to this issue. And America is a little bit of an outlier as it pertains little bit of an outlier as it pertains little bit of an outlier as it pertains to secularization thesis. There's just to secularization thesis. There's just to secularization thesis. There's just some things about America that are kind some things about America that are kind some things about America that are kind of unique to it culturally and of unique to it culturally and of unique to it culturally and religiously that are different around religiously that are different around religiously that are different around the globe. But what I will say is the globe. But what I will say is the globe. But what I will say is churchgoing in America largely maps on churchgoing in America largely maps on churchgoing in America largely maps on top of the idea of institutional trust. top of the idea of institutional trust. top of the idea of institutional trust. And so the most likely person to go to And so the most likely person to go to And so the most likely person to go to church in America has high institutional church in America has high institutional church in America has high institutional trust. And mainly these are people where trust. And mainly these are people where trust. And mainly these are people where the American project is working for the American project is working for the American project is working for them. So the most likely [snorts] person them. So the most likely [snorts] person them. So the most likely [snorts] person to be at church on Sunday is married.

to be at church on Sunday is married. to be at church on Sunday is married. They have children. They have a college They have children. They have a college They have children. They have a college degree. They're middle class or upper degree. They're middle class or upper degree. They're middle class or upper middle class. And so Ryan Burge and I um middle class. And so Ryan Burge and I um middle class. And so Ryan Burge and I um we just did a a large 101,000 person we just did a a large 101,000 person we just did a a large 101,000 person survey and we did ask a question about survey and we did ask a question about survey and we did ask a question about trust and confidence in AI. [snorts] And trust and confidence in AI. [snorts] And trust and confidence in AI. [snorts] And the people, interestingly enough, the the people, interestingly enough, the the people, interestingly enough, the people who had the highest trust or people who had the highest trust or people who had the highest trust or confidence in AI were people who went to confidence in AI were people who went to confidence in AI were people who went to church on a weekly basis. And then church on a weekly basis. And then church on a weekly basis. And then people who had the lowest amount of people who had the lowest amount of people who had the lowest amount of trust were people who didn't go to trust were people who didn't go to trust were people who didn't go to church at all. And so I think um AI has church at all. And so I think um AI has church at all. And so I think um AI has probably has a greater probability of probably has a greater probability of probably has a greater probability of increasing the rate of dechurching um increasing the rate of dechurching um increasing the rate of dechurching um primarily for one reason and you kind of primarily for one reason and you kind of primarily for one reason and you kind of alluded to it here and that's the idea alluded to it here and that's the idea alluded to it here and that's the idea of sycopancy. Sick of fancy just being, of sycopancy. Sick of fancy just being, of sycopancy. Sick of fancy just being, you know, the fancy technical term for you know, the fancy technical term for you know, the fancy technical term for when an AI platform tries to tell you when an AI platform tries to tell you when an AI platform tries to tell you what it thinks you want to hear as what it thinks you want to hear as what it thinks you want to hear as opposed to telling you something that's opposed to telling you something that's opposed to telling you something that's more rooted and grounded in objective more rooted and grounded in objective more rooted and grounded in objective facts. And so there's plenty of fiscal facts. And so there's plenty of fiscal facts. And so there's plenty of fiscal incentives for AI platforms towards sick incentives for AI platforms towards sick incentives for AI platforms towards sick fancy because every platform right now fancy because every platform right now fancy because every platform right now is especially, you know, fighting for is especially, you know, fighting for is especially, you know, fighting for market share. To a smaller degree, there market share. To a smaller degree, there market share. To a smaller degree, there may be a handful of people who use large may be a handful of people who use large may be a handful of people who use large language models, like a kind of language models, like a kind of language models, like a kind of superpowered search, and maybe they're superpowered search, and maybe they're superpowered search, and maybe they're actively willing to put in prompts like, actively willing to put in prompts like, actively willing to put in prompts like, "Hey, convince me of the resurrection of "Hey, convince me of the resurrection of "Hey, convince me of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth." I don't think this Jesus of Nazareth." I don't think this Jesus of Nazareth." I don't think this is going to be a lot of people, but I do

is going to be a lot of people, but I do is going to be a lot of people, but I do I I could see that people around the I I could see that people around the I I could see that people around the world and I think especially places, you world and I think especially places, you world and I think especially places, you know, around the world where there's know, around the world where there's know, around the world where there's less access to biblical content, less access to biblical content, less access to biblical content, especially biblical content in the especially biblical content in the especially biblical content in the physical medium, I could see people physical medium, I could see people physical medium, I could see people using, you know, you know, generative AI using, you know, you know, generative AI using, you know, you know, generative AI and large language models to, you know, and large language models to, you know, and large language models to, you know, ask some curious questions that maybe ask some curious questions that maybe ask some curious questions that maybe they wouldn't feel safe, you know, they wouldn't feel safe, you know, they wouldn't feel safe, you know, talking to an imam or talking to, you talking to an imam or talking to, you talking to an imam or talking to, you know, another kind of, you know, know, another kind of, you know, know, another kind of, you know, spiritual or religious leader or even a spiritual or religious leader or even a spiritual or religious leader or even a friend. So friend. So friend. So maybe there's some positive things, you maybe there's some positive things, you maybe there's some positive things, you know, to this end that we might end up know, to this end that we might end up know, to this end that we might end up seeing around the world. I'm sure seeing around the world. I'm sure seeing around the world. I'm sure there'll be some stories just because there'll be some stories just because there'll be some stories just because of, you know, just the law of large of, you know, just the law of large of, you know, just the law of large numbers. It's fascinating how trust in numbers. It's fascinating how trust in numbers. It's fascinating how trust in AI correlates with with churchgoing, AI correlates with with churchgoing, AI correlates with with churchgoing, isn't it? I wonder what that says about isn't it? I wonder what that says about isn't it? I wonder what that says about churchgoers. Um, [clears throat] churchgoers. Um, [clears throat] churchgoers. Um, [clears throat] I I' I'd love to shift focus a little I I' I'd love to shift focus a little I I' I'd love to shift focus a little bit now and to think together with you bit now and to think together with you bit now and to think together with you guys about what AI is revealing to us guys about what AI is revealing to us guys about what AI is revealing to us about our desires in the way that we about our desires in the way that we about our desires in the way that we relate to it. And Keith, I was listening relate to it. And Keith, I was listening relate to it. And Keith, I was listening to an interview that you did where you to an interview that you did where you to an interview that you did where you were talking about a conversation that were talking about a conversation that were talking about a conversation that you had with an LLN and you asked it, you had with an LLN and you asked it, you had with an LLN and you asked it, "Do you have a self?" Uh, and he said, "Do you have a self?" Uh, and he said, "Do you have a self?" Uh, and he said, "No, I don't." And it then you replied "No, I don't." And it then you replied "No, I don't." And it then you replied to it then why do you refer to yourself to it then why do you refer to yourself to it then why do you refer to yourself in the first person? Why do you say I?

in the first person? Why do you say I? in the first person? Why do you say I? And I thought that was a fascinating And I thought that was a fascinating And I thought that was a fascinating exchange because it raises this question exchange because it raises this question exchange because it raises this question doesn't it? How should we relate to AI? doesn't it? How should we relate to AI? doesn't it? How should we relate to AI? Like should we relate to it as if it's Like should we relate to it as if it's Like should we relate to it as if it's got an eye? Uh should we, you know, say got an eye? Uh should we, you know, say got an eye? Uh should we, you know, say he or or she or or just refer to it as he or or she or or just refer to it as he or or she or or just refer to it as it? Should we treat it like a a tool, it? Should we treat it like a a tool, it? Should we treat it like a a tool, like a companion, like a pet, you know, like a companion, like a pet, you know, like a companion, like a pet, you know, like a god? like a god? like a god? And and I guess what I'd love to ask you And and I guess what I'd love to ask you And and I guess what I'd love to ask you is like what does it matter how we is like what does it matter how we is like what does it matter how we relate to it at the end of the day? What relate to it at the end of the day? What relate to it at the end of the day? What difference does that make? And what difference does that make? And what difference does that make? And what guard rail should we be putting around guard rail should we be putting around guard rail should we be putting around the way that we speak to AI? the way that we speak to AI? the way that we speak to AI? >> That's those are important questions. Um >> That's those are important questions. Um >> That's those are important questions. Um and despite the fact that almost every and despite the fact that almost every and despite the fact that almost every platform they will have somewhere in platform they will have somewhere in platform they will have somewhere in small print that this is you know not a small print that this is you know not a small print that this is you know not a human there is a desire to make the human there is a desire to make the human there is a desire to make the machinery machinery machinery transparent if not invisible and to give transparent if not invisible and to give transparent if not invisible and to give the impression or the illusion that you the impression or the illusion that you the impression or the illusion that you are actually interacting with a are actually interacting with a are actually interacting with a conversation partner and we we have to conversation partner and we we have to conversation partner and we we have to keep before ourselves that I not talking keep before ourselves that I not talking keep before ourselves that I not talking with one of my kind. And in in some with one of my kind. And in in some with one of my kind. And in in some cases, I think in terms of guard rails cases, I think in terms of guard rails cases, I think in terms of guard rails that we can put up, and I did this in that we can put up, and I did this in that we can put up, and I did this in response to the exchange that you're response to the exchange that you're response to the exchange that you're talking about, but it didn't last very talking about, but it didn't last very talking about, but it didn't last very long. I put in the prompt, long. I put in the prompt, long. I put in the prompt, discontinue using the first person discontinue using the first person discontinue using the first person singular pronoun.

singular pronoun. singular pronoun. And it it did do it for a while, but it And it it did do it for a while, but it And it it did do it for a while, but it didn't last. But that might be a measure didn't last. But that might be a measure didn't last. But that might be a measure that we employ in order to just keep that we employ in order to just keep that we employ in order to just keep before ourselves. I am not dealing with before ourselves. I am not dealing with before ourselves. I am not dealing with regardless of how impressive it is. I am regardless of how impressive it is. I am regardless of how impressive it is. I am not dealing with a thinking, feeling not dealing with a thinking, feeling not dealing with a thinking, feeling empathetic entity on the other side of empathetic entity on the other side of empathetic entity on the other side of this with respect to what difference this with respect to what difference this with respect to what difference does it make how we relate to it. I does it make how we relate to it. I does it make how we relate to it. I think it makes a lot because we've think it makes a lot because we've think it makes a lot because we've already talked about the the financial already talked about the the financial already talked about the the financial incentives, the market forces that are incentives, the market forces that are incentives, the market forces that are at work in terms of giving me as a user at work in terms of giving me as a user at work in terms of giving me as a user an experience that is enjoyable, that is an experience that is enjoyable, that is an experience that is enjoyable, that is customizable, customizable, customizable, that is one that is going to deliver to that is one that is going to deliver to that is one that is going to deliver to me things in the way that they believe me things in the way that they believe me things in the way that they believe that I will want them. The more I spend that I will want them. The more I spend that I will want them. The more I spend my time interacting with an interface my time interacting with an interface my time interacting with an interface like that, if I think that that is not like that, if I think that that is not like that, if I think that that is not going to transfer over into my real going to transfer over into my real going to transfer over into my real relationships, relationships, relationships, I think I'm being deluded, self I think I'm being deluded, self I think I'm being deluded, self deceived. If I can have interactions deceived. If I can have interactions deceived. If I can have interactions that are and this is the word that is that are and this is the word that is that are and this is the word that is used with great frequency used with great frequency used with great frequency frictionless frictionless frictionless that that they are devoid of the that that they are devoid of the that that they are devoid of the difficulties and the awkwardness and the difficulties and the awkwardness and the difficulties and the awkwardness and the disappointments that come with real disappointments that come with real disappointments that come with real relationships, the more that becomes my

relationships, the more that becomes my relationships, the more that becomes my normal, normal, normal, the the more discontent and disappointed the the more discontent and disappointed the the more discontent and disappointed and frustrated I will likely become. um and frustrated I will likely become. um and frustrated I will likely become. um with relationships with other people. So with relationships with other people. So with relationships with other people. So as we think about how this is forming us as we think about how this is forming us as we think about how this is forming us in terms of our expectations, maybe even in terms of our expectations, maybe even in terms of our expectations, maybe even our demands, that is something that we our demands, that is something that we our demands, that is something that we we must um take into consideration. we must um take into consideration. we must um take into consideration. >> Again, it's it's the thing, isn't it? >> Again, it's it's the thing, isn't it? >> Again, it's it's the thing, isn't it? Not only what is it what can I do with Not only what is it what can I do with Not only what is it what can I do with it, but what is it doing to me as I get it, but what is it doing to me as I get it, but what is it doing to me as I get those things done quicker and more those things done quicker and more those things done quicker and more efficiently? who who am I being molded efficiently? who who am I being molded efficiently? who who am I being molded to become in that in that process? to become in that in that process? to become in that in that process? Um Keith, I I fundamentally agree with Um Keith, I I fundamentally agree with Um Keith, I I fundamentally agree with you, but I want to stress test what you, but I want to stress test what you, but I want to stress test what you're saying with with with another you're saying with with with another you're saying with with with another scenario and just just try and find out scenario and just just try and find out scenario and just just try and find out where where the edges of it are. So in where where the edges of it are. So in where where the edges of it are. So in in another interview, you you talked in another interview, you you talked in another interview, you you talked about getting annoyed when I think it about getting annoyed when I think it about getting annoyed when I think it was Chat GPT said to you, "I'm sorry."

was Chat GPT said to you, "I'm sorry." was Chat GPT said to you, "I'm sorry." because you were saying it isn't sorry because you were saying it isn't sorry because you were saying it isn't sorry like it it's just predicting what is the like it it's just predicting what is the like it it's just predicting what is the likely thing to say in that sort of likely thing to say in that sort of likely thing to say in that sort of situation and so it says I'm sorry. Um situation and so it says I'm sorry. Um situation and so it says I'm sorry. Um let let me just play devil's advocate let let me just play devil's advocate let let me just play devil's advocate for a moment. Like isn't that exactly for a moment. Like isn't that exactly for a moment. Like isn't that exactly what humans do? Like most of the time what humans do? Like most of the time what humans do? Like most of the time most people say I'm sorry. We're not most people say I'm sorry. We're not most people say I'm sorry. We're not really sorry. It's just a social really sorry. It's just a social really sorry. It's just a social protocol. It's the thing that I know I protocol. It's the thing that I know I protocol. It's the thing that I know I should say in that situation. And you should say in that situation. And you should say in that situation. And you know, even my Bluetooth speakers will know, even my Bluetooth speakers will know, even my Bluetooth speakers will flash at me the message, "Sorry, pairing flash at me the message, "Sorry, pairing flash at me the message, "Sorry, pairing unsuccessful." And and I don't, you unsuccessful." And and I don't, you unsuccessful." And and I don't, you know, have an existential meltdown at know, have an existential meltdown at know, have an existential meltdown at that point, thinking, "No, you're not that point, thinking, "No, you're not that point, thinking, "No, you're not sorry speakers." You Yeah. How dare you? sorry speakers." You Yeah. How dare you? sorry speakers." You Yeah. How dare you? So why pick on LLMs in this situation? So why pick on LLMs in this situation? So why pick on LLMs in this situation? Is there something distinct about the Is there something distinct about the Is there something distinct about the way that large language models are way that large language models are way that large language models are conjuring with with personhood that conjuring with with personhood that conjuring with with personhood that worries you? Or as as Mike was saying a worries you? Or as as Mike was saying a worries you? Or as as Mike was saying a moment ago, might it not actually be moment ago, might it not actually be moment ago, might it not actually be helpful for us to have machines helpful for us to have machines helpful for us to have machines apologize to us or or or to apologize to apologize to us or or or to apologize to apologize to us or or or to apologize to them as a practice for relating to human them as a practice for relating to human them as a practice for relating to human beings? Well, there's a lot there. Um, beings? Well, there's a lot there. Um, beings? Well, there's a lot there. Um, look at some of the words you use, look at some of the words you use, look at some of the words you use, social protocol, which in that entails social protocol, which in that entails social protocol, which in that entails the idea of a personal relationship. And the idea of a personal relationship. And the idea of a personal relationship. And you know, honestly, sometimes I get you know, honestly, sometimes I get you know, honestly, sometimes I get annoyed with people who say sorry when annoyed with people who say sorry when annoyed with people who say sorry when they're not either. But look what's they're not either. But look what's they're not either. But look what's going on there. The question that is at going on there. The question that is at going on there. The question that is at work there is, is this an instance where work there is, is this an instance where work there is, is this an instance where this person is sincerely sorry? because

this person is sincerely sorry? because this person is sincerely sorry? because in many cases he or she may actually be in many cases he or she may actually be in many cases he or she may actually be with AI they are never sincerely sorry with AI they are never sincerely sorry with AI they are never sincerely sorry th this there there's never any sense of th this there there's never any sense of th this there there's never any sense of wrongdoing there's never any sense of wrongdoing there's never any sense of wrongdoing there's never any sense of contrition regret and so forth and so contrition regret and so forth and so contrition regret and so forth and so and now with the Bluetooth yes the and now with the Bluetooth yes the and now with the Bluetooth yes the Bluetooth speaker says sorry pairing Bluetooth speaker says sorry pairing Bluetooth speaker says sorry pairing couldn't be um accomplished and so forth couldn't be um accomplished and so forth couldn't be um accomplished and so forth but the difference there is The but the difference there is The but the difference there is The Bluetooth speaker isn't being presented Bluetooth speaker isn't being presented Bluetooth speaker isn't being presented to you as someone or some yeah, I'll say to you as someone or some yeah, I'll say to you as someone or some yeah, I'll say someone with whom to relate. There someone with whom to relate. There someone with whom to relate. There there's a message that is being given in there's a message that is being given in there's a message that is being given in order to inform you of something, but order to inform you of something, but order to inform you of something, but you are not being drawn in and invited you are not being drawn in and invited you are not being drawn in and invited to have an ongoing to have an ongoing to have an ongoing interaction as though you are dealing interaction as though you are dealing interaction as though you are dealing with um another person. So it is that uh with um another person. So it is that uh with um another person. So it is that uh that desire to present that desire to present that desire to present as though personal that does does as though personal that does does as though personal that does does concern me particularly concern me particularly concern me particularly when we start dealing with you know like when we start dealing with you know like when we start dealing with you know like children and young people but I don't children and young people but I don't children and young people but I don't think that they alone are vulnerable to think that they alone are vulnerable to think that they alone are vulnerable to it. Uh I think we all are in in varying it. Uh I think we all are in in varying it. Uh I think we all are in in varying degrees. Um you someone who has been degrees. Um you someone who has been degrees. Um you someone who has been really influential in me is Sher Turkl really influential in me is Sher Turkl really influential in me is Sher Turkl and her her writing and she talks about and her her writing and she talks about and her her writing and she talks about how it is that when she was at MIT and

how it is that when she was at MIT and how it is that when she was at MIT and she was being shown um social robots, she was being shown um social robots, she was being shown um social robots, there was a robot there was a robot there was a robot that was seeking to um it was designed that was seeking to um it was designed that was seeking to um it was designed so as to follow movement with its eyes. so as to follow movement with its eyes. so as to follow movement with its eyes. and she talks about how even though she and she talks about how even though she and she talks about how even though she knew what was going on and others in the knew what was going on and others in the knew what was going on and others in the room knew what was going on, they were room knew what was going on, they were room knew what was going on, they were all trying to get its attention. all trying to get its attention. all trying to get its attention. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And and there there are vulnerabilities And and there there are vulnerabilities And and there there are vulnerabilities that are at work in us that if we do not that are at work in us that if we do not that are at work in us that if we do not continue to keep before us and each continue to keep before us and each continue to keep before us and each other, we are susceptible to. And we other, we are susceptible to. And we other, we are susceptible to. And we might talk about this later, but I think might talk about this later, but I think might talk about this later, but I think the danger is that we become so the danger is that we become so the danger is that we become so enthralled enthralled enthralled with this human simulation with this human simulation with this human simulation all the while we become all the while we become all the while we become bored with actual humans. bored with actual humans. bored with actual humans. >> It's a chilling thought, isn't it, that >> It's a chilling thought, isn't it, that >> It's a chilling thought, isn't it, that LLM can hack us in that way in a way LLM can hack us in that way in a way LLM can hack us in that way in a way that, you know, Bluetooth speakers that, you know, Bluetooth speakers that, you know, Bluetooth speakers almost certainly can't. that that they almost certainly can't. that that they almost certainly can't. that that they can simulate contrition or even desire can simulate contrition or even desire can simulate contrition or even desire and we can legitimately on an and we can legitimately on an and we can legitimately on an experiential level fall in love with experiential level fall in love with experiential level fall in love with them and many people have. Um it it it them and many people have. Um it it it them and many people have. Um it it it is is is we are hacked, aren't we? That is the we are hacked, aren't we? That is the we are hacked, aren't we? That is the right language to use when that happens.

right language to use when that happens. right language to use when that happens. these these corporations and the large these these corporations and the large these these corporations and the large language models they present us to with language models they present us to with language models they present us to with are very successfully hacking our human are very successfully hacking our human are very successfully hacking our human um sort of setup in order to get done um sort of setup in order to get done um sort of setup in order to get done what they want done. what they want done. what they want done. >> Someone sent me a a video of a Honda >> Someone sent me a a video of a Honda >> Someone sent me a a video of a Honda concept car that has AI integration and concept car that has AI integration and concept car that has AI integration and it shows this person uh driving along it shows this person uh driving along it shows this person uh driving along and the car is asking them questions and the car is asking them questions and the car is asking them questions about where they want to go. Isn't the about where they want to go. Isn't the about where they want to go. Isn't the sunset beautiful? And so forth. And the sunset beautiful? And so forth. And the sunset beautiful? And so forth. And the the voice over comes and it says uh the voice over comes and it says uh the voice over comes and it says uh something along the lines of your car something along the lines of your car something along the lines of your car can be your partner. I don't want my car to be my partner. I don't want my car to be my partner. But see, the the presentation of this But see, the the presentation of this But see, the the presentation of this sophisticated sophisticated sophisticated computer tech as though it is a a viable computer tech as though it is a a viable computer tech as though it is a a viable means of of friendship, companionship, means of of friendship, companionship, means of of friendship, companionship, and so forth is very disturbing.

and so forth is very disturbing. and so forth is very disturbing. >> Absolutely. And the the real sort of um >> Absolutely. And the the real sort of um >> Absolutely. And the the real sort of um one punch knockout to my humanity there one punch knockout to my humanity there one punch knockout to my humanity there is not simply that the car is my is not simply that the car is my is not simply that the car is my partner, is it? is that if the car is my partner, is it? is that if the car is my partner, is it? is that if the car is my partner, then my partner isn't my partner, then my partner isn't my partner, then my partner isn't my partner anymore. It's it's what it does, partner anymore. It's it's what it does, partner anymore. It's it's what it does, the devastation that it causes to those the devastation that it causes to those the devastation that it causes to those human relationships that that I'm part human relationships that that I'm part human relationships that that I'm part of. Um, of. Um, of. Um, Mike, if we could turn to you, I I heard Mike, if we could turn to you, I I heard Mike, if we could turn to you, I I heard you say something that I found really you say something that I found really you say something that I found really profound and fascinating, and I I'd love profound and fascinating, and I I'd love profound and fascinating, and I I'd love you to speak about it a little bit more. you to speak about it a little bit more. you to speak about it a little bit more. you you were talking in in one interview you you were talking in in one interview you you were talking in in one interview that you did about four great idols of that you did about four great idols of that you did about four great idols of the west and you named them as power, the west and you named them as power, the west and you named them as power, control, comfort and escape. Um, and I I control, comfort and escape. Um, and I I control, comfort and escape. Um, and I I wonder how do you see those four main wonder how do you see those four main wonder how do you see those four main idols of of Western culture mapping onto idols of of Western culture mapping onto idols of of Western culture mapping onto the way that people use AI today? So I the way that people use AI today? So I the way that people use AI today? So I got these four categories from the late got these four categories from the late got these four categories from the late David Palison and then I added my own David Palison and then I added my own David Palison and then I added my own twist. So the the idols largely map onto twist. So the the idols largely map onto twist. So the the idols largely map onto the fight orflight response that we have the fight orflight response that we have the fight orflight response that we have kind of in our amydalas. And so power kind of in our amydalas. And so power kind of in our amydalas. And so power and control are fight type idols.

and control are fight type idols. and control are fight type idols. Comfort and escape are flight type Comfort and escape are flight type Comfort and escape are flight type idols. So fight type idols have us idols. So fight type idols have us idols. So fight type idols have us tempted to seek the incommunicable tempted to seek the incommunicable tempted to seek the incommunicable attributes of God. Namely, we want to attributes of God. Namely, we want to attributes of God. Namely, we want to have all the omnies. We want to be all have all the omnies. We want to be all have all the omnies. We want to be all knowing, all powerful, all present, so knowing, all powerful, all present, so knowing, all powerful, all present, so on and so forth. Flight type idols have on and so forth. Flight type idols have on and so forth. Flight type idols have us tempted to want to anestize ourselves us tempted to want to anestize ourselves us tempted to want to anestize ourselves because of the fallenness and brokenness because of the fallenness and brokenness because of the fallenness and brokenness of the world. Maybe has us overwhelmed of the world. Maybe has us overwhelmed of the world. Maybe has us overwhelmed based on the stimuli of our based on the stimuli of our based on the stimuli of our circumstances. So AI presents massive circumstances. So AI presents massive circumstances. So AI presents massive temptations to either ends of that temptations to either ends of that temptations to either ends of that spectrum, fight type idols or flight spectrum, fight type idols or flight spectrum, fight type idols or flight type idols. We're tempted to think that type idols. We're tempted to think that type idols. We're tempted to think that we're knowledgeable about everything we're knowledgeable about everything we're knowledgeable about everything because we can find pretty decent because we can find pretty decent because we can find pretty decent information very quickly now. And then information very quickly now. And then information very quickly now. And then on the other side of things, we're on the other side of things, we're on the other side of things, we're tempted to escape our current reality tempted to escape our current reality tempted to escape our current reality into chat bots, character bots, you into chat bots, character bots, you into chat bots, character bots, you know, as a kind of means of comfort or know, as a kind of means of comfort or know, as a kind of means of comfort or escape. escape. escape. >> It's really helpful. Another thing you >> It's really helpful. Another thing you >> It's really helpful. Another thing you said, Mike, really resonated with me as said, Mike, really resonated with me as said, Mike, really resonated with me as well. Um you you said there are two key well. Um you you said there are two key well. Um you you said there are two key questions for us human beings in every questions for us human beings in every questions for us human beings in every situation. Um what do I want and what am situation. Um what do I want and what am situation. Um what do I want and what am I afraid of? Uh and again I'd love you I afraid of? Uh and again I'd love you I afraid of? Uh and again I'd love you just to to plug those two fundamental just to to plug those two fundamental just to to plug those two fundamental questions into AI. Um when we think questions into AI. Um when we think questions into AI. Um when we think about AI through that lens, what does it about AI through that lens, what does it about AI through that lens, what does it show us about what we want and what does show us about what we want and what does show us about what we want and what does it show us about what we're afraid of it show us about what we're afraid of it show us about what we're afraid of right now?

right now? right now? >> Yeah. When you think about the history >> Yeah. When you think about the history >> Yeah. When you think about the history of literature and like the history of of literature and like the history of of literature and like the history of dystopian literature, they, you know, dystopian literature, they, you know, dystopian literature, they, you know, all kind of future dystopian books kind all kind of future dystopian books kind all kind of future dystopian books kind of fit into one of those two categories. of fit into one of those two categories. of fit into one of those two categories. Oh, what ends up enslaving humanity in Oh, what ends up enslaving humanity in Oh, what ends up enslaving humanity in the future is either our wants or what the future is either our wants or what the future is either our wants or what ends up enslaving humanity in the future ends up enslaving humanity in the future ends up enslaving humanity in the future is our fears. And I think that both of is our fears. And I think that both of is our fears. And I think that both of those things those things those things can be right and in many ways are right. can be right and in many ways are right. can be right and in many ways are right. And so the flip side of this is also And so the flip side of this is also And so the flip side of this is also true though for me. All of evangelism true though for me. All of evangelism true though for me. All of evangelism and all of disciplehip comes down to and all of disciplehip comes down to and all of disciplehip comes down to those basically repackaging those same those basically repackaging those same those basically repackaging those same two questions in different ways in ways two questions in different ways in ways two questions in different ways in ways that are socially acceptable for however that are socially acceptable for however that are socially acceptable for however deep of a relationship that you have deep of a relationship that you have deep of a relationship that you have with somebody. You can't just ask with somebody. You can't just ask with somebody. You can't just ask somebody, you know, what do you want and somebody, you know, what do you want and somebody, you know, what do you want and what you what are you afraid of? But what you what are you afraid of? But what you what are you afraid of? But what you can say is questions like, what you can say is questions like, what you can say is questions like, "Hey, what's the next thing that you're "Hey, what's the next thing that you're "Hey, what's the next thing that you're looking forward to?" That's a different looking forward to?" That's a different looking forward to?" That's a different way to say, "What do you want?" Okay.

way to say, "What do you want?" Okay. way to say, "What do you want?" Okay. [snorts] Another way to ask, "What are [snorts] Another way to ask, "What are [snorts] Another way to ask, "What are you afraid of?" is, "Hey, when was the you afraid of?" is, "Hey, when was the you afraid of?" is, "Hey, when was the last time that you lost sleep? last time that you lost sleep? last time that you lost sleep? Tell me more about like what kept you up Tell me more about like what kept you up Tell me more about like what kept you up at night the last time that you lost at night the last time that you lost at night the last time that you lost sleep." Okay. So what AI does is it sleep." Okay. So what AI does is it sleep." Okay. So what AI does is it gives us a really long fulcrum to gives us a really long fulcrum to gives us a really long fulcrum to leverage either our wants or our fears. leverage either our wants or our fears. leverage either our wants or our fears. On the want side of things, we're On the want side of things, we're On the want side of things, we're tempted to want to be like God's. On the tempted to want to be like God's. On the tempted to want to be like God's. On the fear side of things, we're tempted to fear side of things, we're tempted to fear side of things, we're tempted to forget the doctrine of the providence of forget the doctrine of the providence of forget the doctrine of the providence of God. In other words, Jesus holds God. In other words, Jesus holds God. In other words, Jesus holds everything in creation together and is everything in creation together and is everything in creation together and is indeed in charge also of all of history. indeed in charge also of all of history. indeed in charge also of all of history. That also includes this new era. And so That also includes this new era. And so That also includes this new era. And so that's part of why it's important that that's part of why it's important that that's part of why it's important that we avoid some extremes when it comes to we avoid some extremes when it comes to we avoid some extremes when it comes to how we evaluate artificial intelligence. how we evaluate artificial intelligence. how we evaluate artificial intelligence. >> Thank you very much indeed. I I I'd like >> Thank you very much indeed. I I I'd like >> Thank you very much indeed. I I I'd like to spend some time thinking with both of to spend some time thinking with both of to spend some time thinking with both of you about how to live faithfully and you about how to live faithfully and you about how to live faithfully and hopefully in this current cultural hopefully in this current cultural hopefully in this current cultural moment in which we find ourselves. to to moment in which we find ourselves. to to moment in which we find ourselves. to to start. I I've asked you both if you start. I I've asked you both if you start. I I've asked you both if you would um share with us a couple uh of would um share with us a couple uh of would um share with us a couple uh of Bible passages uh one or two Bible Bible passages uh one or two Bible Bible passages uh one or two Bible passages that have been helpful for you passages that have been helpful for you passages that have been helpful for you personally in thinking through issues personally in thinking through issues personally in thinking through issues related uh to AI. Um so Keith, I wonder related uh to AI. Um so Keith, I wonder related uh to AI. Um so Keith, I wonder if we can start with you. What what if we can start with you. What what if we can start with you. What what parts of the Bible have you found parts of the Bible have you found parts of the Bible have you found particularly insightful as you've particularly insightful as you've particularly insightful as you've wrestled with with AI questions? One

wrestled with with AI questions? One wrestled with with AI questions? One passage I've been thinking a lot about passage I've been thinking a lot about passage I've been thinking a lot about is uh Jesus words in Luke 6:45. The is uh Jesus words in Luke 6:45. The is uh Jesus words in Luke 6:45. The latter part of that he's dealing he's latter part of that he's dealing he's latter part of that he's dealing he's dealing with the Pharisees and he's dealing with the Pharisees and he's dealing with the Pharisees and he's condemning them. But um one of the condemning them. But um one of the condemning them. But um one of the things that he says there we're familiar things that he says there we're familiar things that he says there we're familiar with these words that out of the with these words that out of the with these words that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. And because we're dealing so much with And because we're dealing so much with And because we're dealing so much with words and the proliferation of words, words and the proliferation of words, words and the proliferation of words, this is just a helpful reminder to me this is just a helpful reminder to me this is just a helpful reminder to me that words are intended by God to be the that words are intended by God to be the that words are intended by God to be the products of hearts products of hearts products of hearts and they are revealers of hearts. And so and they are revealers of hearts. And so and they are revealers of hearts. And so as I'm dealing with something that can as I'm dealing with something that can as I'm dealing with something that can produce in a very impressive and fast produce in a very impressive and fast produce in a very impressive and fast way a flood of words, I find it helpful way a flood of words, I find it helpful way a flood of words, I find it helpful to keep in mind that um God's intent is to keep in mind that um God's intent is to keep in mind that um God's intent is that words would be the the products, that words would be the the products, that words would be the the products, the issue of of hearts, actual persons. the issue of of hearts, actual persons. the issue of of hearts, actual persons. And then another passage uh that has And then another passage uh that has And then another passage uh that has been on my mind is Psalm 8 where um been on my mind is Psalm 8 where um been on my mind is Psalm 8 where um David is contemplating the wonders of David is contemplating the wonders of David is contemplating the wonders of nature and he leads him to ask what is nature and he leads him to ask what is nature and he leads him to ask what is man that you are mindful of him and what man that you are mindful of him and what man that you are mindful of him and what he does then is he he goes on to talk he does then is he he goes on to talk he does then is he he goes on to talk about the privileged status that humans about the privileged status that humans about the privileged status that humans have and he says here I'll just read uh have and he says here I'll just read uh have and he says here I'll just read uh from verse 5 yet you have made him a from verse 5 yet you have made him a from verse 5 yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings little lower than the heavenly beings little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.

and crowned him with glory and honor. and crowned him with glory and honor. You've given him dominion over the works You've given him dominion over the works You've given him dominion over the works of your hands. You've put all things of your hands. You've put all things of your hands. You've put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxmen, and under his feet, all sheep and oxmen, and under his feet, all sheep and oxmen, and also the beasts of the field, the birds also the beasts of the field, the birds also the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the whatever passes along the paths of the whatever passes along the paths of the seas. And as I said before, it is easy seas. And as I said before, it is easy seas. And as I said before, it is easy and I think especially so in our day to and I think especially so in our day to and I think especially so in our day to become so captivated and aruck by become so captivated and aruck by become so captivated and aruck by machines that we have made that are able machines that we have made that are able machines that we have made that are able to simulate us to great degrees of to simulate us to great degrees of to simulate us to great degrees of accuracy accuracy accuracy while looking at the prototype one while looking at the prototype one while looking at the prototype one another humans another humans another humans and ceasing to be aruck. and ceasing to be aruck. and ceasing to be aruck. ceasing to ceasing to to wonder and ceasing to ceasing to to wonder and ceasing to ceasing to to wonder and marvel marvel marvel at what at what at what being human is and the the being bearers being human is and the the being bearers being human is and the the being bearers of the image of the the triune God. It's of the image of the the triune God. It's of the image of the the triune God. It's it's very tempting.

it's very tempting. it's very tempting. >> It's incredibly helpful. There's a real >> It's incredibly helpful. There's a real >> It's incredibly helpful. There's a real theme, isn't there, in a lot of what theme, isn't there, in a lot of what theme, isn't there, in a lot of what we're talking about in this episode. we're talking about in this episode. we're talking about in this episode. It's not it's not just what you can do It's not it's not just what you can do It's not it's not just what you can do with AI. It's it's how it changes subtly with AI. It's it's how it changes subtly with AI. It's it's how it changes subtly changes perhaps your your view of who changes perhaps your your view of who changes perhaps your your view of who you are as a human being and how you you are as a human being and how you you are as a human being and how you relate to other human beings. That that relate to other human beings. That that relate to other human beings. That that is often what flies under the radar and is often what flies under the radar and is often what flies under the radar and passages like Psalm 8 just put that back passages like Psalm 8 just put that back passages like Psalm 8 just put that back front and center, don't they? Remember front and center, don't they? Remember front and center, don't they? Remember who you are. Uh remember your place, who you are. Uh remember your place, who you are. Uh remember your place, your wonderful place crowned with glory your wonderful place crowned with glory your wonderful place crowned with glory and honor in this universe of ours. Um and honor in this universe of ours. Um and honor in this universe of ours. Um Mike, let me ask the same question to Mike, let me ask the same question to Mike, let me ask the same question to you. what what Bible passages have been you. what what Bible passages have been you. what what Bible passages have been particularly helpful for you as you've particularly helpful for you as you've particularly helpful for you as you've wrestled with AI over the years? wrestled with AI over the years? wrestled with AI over the years? >> Yeah, so uh one passage that comes to >> Yeah, so uh one passage that comes to >> Yeah, so uh one passage that comes to mind is Ephesians 1 um really the whole mind is Ephesians 1 um really the whole mind is Ephesians 1 um really the whole chapter, but especially verse 11. So chapter, but especially verse 11. So chapter, but especially verse 11. So which says in him we have obtained an which says in him we have obtained an which says in him we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined inheritance having been predestined inheritance having been predestined according to the purpose of him who according to the purpose of him who according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the works all things according to the works all things according to the council of his will. So the idea that council of his will. So the idea that council of his will. So the idea that nothing's h nothing happens in all of nothing's h nothing happens in all of nothing's h nothing happens in all of creation or history outside of God's creation or history outside of God's creation or history outside of God's will. So that's an important thing to will. So that's an important thing to will. So that's an important thing to remember especially when there are remember especially when there are remember especially when there are things that are disruptive in nature things that are disruptive in nature things that are disruptive in nature like a new technology. It's just like a new technology. It's just like a new technology. It's just important to recognize that God's still important to recognize that God's still important to recognize that God's still in control. And then the second passage in control. And then the second passage in control. And then the second passage that comes to mind, and this is kind of that comes to mind, and this is kind of that comes to mind, and this is kind of riffing on a similar theme would be the riffing on a similar theme would be the riffing on a similar theme would be the very very well-known Matthew 28 uh very very well-known Matthew 28 uh very very well-known Matthew 28 uh 18-20. So which says this, "And Jesus

18-20. So which says this, "And Jesus 18-20. So which says this, "And Jesus came and said to them, all authority in came and said to them, all authority in came and said to them, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to heaven and on earth has been given to heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of me. Go therefore and make disciples of me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name all nations, baptizing them in the name all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have teaching them to observe all that I have teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." And this is key. and commanded you." And this is key. and commanded you." And this is key. and behold, I am with you always to the end behold, I am with you always to the end behold, I am with you always to the end of the age. So, whatever happens with of the age. So, whatever happens with of the age. So, whatever happens with technology and all of these different technology and all of these different technology and all of these different kinds of things, God is with us kinds of things, God is with us kinds of things, God is with us regardless of, you know, whether utopian regardless of, you know, whether utopian regardless of, you know, whether utopian scenarios play itself out, dystopian scenarios play itself out, dystopian scenarios play itself out, dystopian scenarios play themselves out, or both scenarios play themselves out, or both scenarios play themselves out, or both of those things at the same time. of those things at the same time. of those things at the same time. >> Amen. Yes. Um, [clears throat] no >> Amen. Yes. Um, [clears throat] no >> Amen. Yes. Um, [clears throat] no technology, no event in human history technology, no event in human history technology, no event in human history gets as deep into the fabric of the gets as deep into the fabric of the gets as deep into the fabric of the universe as God's providence. They're universe as God's providence. They're universe as God's providence. They're all superficial compared to that all superficial compared to that all superficial compared to that fundamental reality. What a what a fundamental reality. What a what a fundamental reality. What a what a wonderful platform for Christians to to wonderful platform for Christians to to wonderful platform for Christians to to lean into the AI age with uh with that lean into the AI age with uh with that lean into the AI age with uh with that discernment in mind. Um discernment in mind. Um discernment in mind. Um Keith, in one interview you did, you Keith, in one interview you did, you Keith, in one interview you did, you made this really really lovely and made this really really lovely and made this really really lovely and actually really quite provocative actually really quite provocative actually really quite provocative analogy. You you said in thinking about analogy. You you said in thinking about analogy. You you said in thinking about AI, AI, AI, um let's bear in mind that question that um let's bear in mind that question that um let's bear in mind that question that all youth pastors have got at one point all youth pastors have got at one point all youth pastors have got at one point in their ministry, the the how far can I in their ministry, the the how far can I in their ministry, the the how far can I go question. And you you said it it's go question. And you you said it it's go question. And you you said it it's helpful to think AI in terms of how we helpful to think AI in terms of how we helpful to think AI in terms of how we might respond to that question in a in a

might respond to that question in a in a might respond to that question in a in a youth group setting. Could you just youth group setting. Could you just youth group setting. Could you just tease that out for us? How is the how tease that out for us? How is the how tease that out for us? How is the how far can I go question helpful as we far can I go question helpful as we far can I go question helpful as we think about AI? think about AI? think about AI? >> When when teens ask of the youth pastor, >> When when teens ask of the youth pastor, >> When when teens ask of the youth pastor, how far is too far? How far can we we go how far is too far? How far can we we go how far is too far? How far can we we go in terms of a dating relationship and so in terms of a dating relationship and so in terms of a dating relationship and so forth? forth? forth? What is foremost in their mind is not What is foremost in their mind is not What is foremost in their mind is not the question of what is good, what is the question of what is good, what is the question of what is good, what is profitable, profitable, profitable, who am I made for, what am I made for, who am I made for, what am I made for, who am I made for, what am I made for, who and what is the person that I am who and what is the person that I am who and what is the person that I am with made for the the primary with made for the the primary with made for the the primary consideration is what can I do and still consideration is what can I do and still consideration is what can I do and still be okay? be okay? be okay? And and those are two different ways of And and those are two different ways of And and those are two different ways of approaching things. approaching things. approaching things. And I think the application with AI is And I think the application with AI is And I think the application with AI is again going back to we've got to again going back to we've got to again going back to we've got to consider who and what were we made for? consider who and what were we made for? consider who and what were we made for? What is the optimal form of life? What is the optimal form of life? What is the optimal form of life? Do I really believe that what God has Do I really believe that what God has Do I really believe that what God has revealed is the way of flourishing is?

revealed is the way of flourishing is? revealed is the way of flourishing is? And if I don't, what is what does that And if I don't, what is what does that And if I don't, what is what does that do to? And I I think many times the do to? And I I think many times the do to? And I I think many times the questions that we're asking is can I use questions that we're asking is can I use questions that we're asking is can I use AI to do this without asking that prior AI to do this without asking that prior AI to do this without asking that prior question of well what are we for? Who question of well what are we for? Who question of well what are we for? Who are we for? What does what does living are we for? What does what does living are we for? What does what does living well look like? What is the nature of well look like? What is the nature of well look like? What is the nature of the truly good life as God has created the truly good life as God has created the truly good life as God has created and revealed it? and how might my use of and revealed it? and how might my use of and revealed it? and how might my use of AI impede or further that AI impede or further that AI impede or further that those that's what I had in mind in terms those that's what I had in mind in terms those that's what I had in mind in terms of that um provocative analogy of that um provocative analogy of that um provocative analogy >> it it's it's such a fundamental question >> it it's it's such a fundamental question >> it it's it's such a fundamental question isn't it if we don't know what we're for isn't it if we don't know what we're for isn't it if we don't know what we're for then how can we possibly work out then how can we possibly work out then how can we possibly work out whether in a particular context it's whether in a particular context it's whether in a particular context it's appropriate for use for us to use AI or appropriate for use for us to use AI or appropriate for use for us to use AI or not let's try and get really practical w not let's try and get really practical w not let's try and get really practical w with with with line of thinking. So you you teach Keith line of thinking. So you you teach Keith line of thinking. So you you teach Keith a a a course on technology and a a a course on technology and a a a course on technology and disciplehip. Is there in that course um disciplehip. Is there in that course um disciplehip. Is there in that course um a a concrete assignment that you give to a a concrete assignment that you give to a a concrete assignment that you give to your students that you you sort of your students that you you sort of your students that you you sort of think, "Oh man, if every Christian would think, "Oh man, if every Christian would think, "Oh man, if every Christian would try this, that would be really helpful try this, that would be really helpful try this, that would be really helpful as we navigate AI or one principle that as we navigate AI or one principle that as we navigate AI or one principle that that you you think if if every Christian that you you think if if every Christian that you you think if if every Christian bore this in mind, we'd be able to bore this in mind, we'd be able to bore this in mind, we'd be able to approach AI much more healthily." There approach AI much more healthily." There approach AI much more healthily." There is there's a we do a lot of work with uh is there's a we do a lot of work with uh is there's a we do a lot of work with uh media ecology and um that's obviously media ecology and um that's obviously media ecology and um that's obviously closely related to our digital

closely related to our digital closely related to our digital technologies. One of the things that I technologies. One of the things that I technologies. One of the things that I ask students to do is um it's called a ask students to do is um it's called a ask students to do is um it's called a technology experiment and over a technology experiment and over a technology experiment and over a five-day period they are to five-day period they are to five-day period they are to either um either um either um switch out one medium for another that switch out one medium for another that switch out one medium for another that they normally use with just great they normally use with just great they normally use with just great frequency. So, for example, if you get frequency. So, for example, if you get frequency. So, for example, if you get your news from social media for 5 days, your news from social media for 5 days, your news from social media for 5 days, maybe think about um [clears throat] uh maybe think about um [clears throat] uh maybe think about um [clears throat] uh watching television news or reading a watching television news or reading a watching television news or reading a newspaper for 5 days. Um if you normally newspaper for 5 days. Um if you normally newspaper for 5 days. Um if you normally use your Bible app for your interaction use your Bible app for your interaction use your Bible app for your interaction with your Bible, I've had students with your Bible, I've had students with your Bible, I've had students who've chosen to only use their physical who've chosen to only use their physical who've chosen to only use their physical Bible for those five days. And one of Bible for those five days. And one of Bible for those five days. And one of the now some students do a fast and I the now some students do a fast and I the now some students do a fast and I think usually because they realize think usually because they realize think usually because they realize there's some problem. So many of them there's some problem. So many of them there's some problem. So many of them will say I'm going to go 5 days without will say I'm going to go 5 days without will say I'm going to go 5 days without uh my favorite social media platform. Uh uh my favorite social media platform. Uh uh my favorite social media platform. Uh they get quite creative. One young man they get quite creative. One young man they get quite creative. One young man uses um his his cash app for all of his uses um his his cash app for all of his uses um his his cash app for all of his purchases. He said for 5 days I'm just purchases. He said for 5 days I'm just purchases. He said for 5 days I'm just going to use cash.

going to use cash. going to use cash. And then they have to write a paper and And then they have to write a paper and And then they have to write a paper and they have to answer questions like uh they have to answer questions like uh they have to answer questions like uh why did you select what you did? What why did you select what you did? What why did you select what you did? What did you select? Uh what was most did you select? Uh what was most did you select? Uh what was most difficult and maybe frustrating about difficult and maybe frustrating about difficult and maybe frustrating about it? What if anything was advantageous? it? What if anything was advantageous? it? What if anything was advantageous? What did you learn about yourself and What did you learn about yourself and What did you learn about yourself and your relationship to God and others? your relationship to God and others? your relationship to God and others? And after doing this 5day stretch, do And after doing this 5day stretch, do And after doing this 5day stretch, do you intend to make any permanent changes you intend to make any permanent changes you intend to make any permanent changes in your life? If so, what and why? Now, in your life? If so, what and why? Now, in your life? If so, what and why? Now, um they have to write a five-page paper um they have to write a five-page paper um they have to write a five-page paper and maybe not everyone will do that. But and maybe not everyone will do that. But and maybe not everyone will do that. But I think those kinds of questions and I think those kinds of questions and I think those kinds of questions and that kind of experimenting with uh an that kind of experimenting with uh an that kind of experimenting with uh an attentiveness to how it is that we are attentiveness to how it is that we are attentiveness to how it is that we are uh going through that I think that would uh going through that I think that would uh going through that I think that would be very very helpful for all of us to do be very very helpful for all of us to do be very very helpful for all of us to do with regularity. with regularity. with regularity. >> I certainly would, wouldn't it? I I >> I certainly would, wouldn't it? I I >> I certainly would, wouldn't it? I I guess one of the great dangers of this guess one of the great dangers of this guess one of the great dangers of this whole technological tidal wave that whole technological tidal wave that whole technological tidal wave that we're in the middle of at the moment we're in the middle of at the moment we're in the middle of at the moment that your that your that your exercise there really helps us to get to exercise there really helps us to get to exercise there really helps us to get to grips with is is that the the danger is grips with is is that the the danger is grips with is is that the the danger is that we just sleepwalk into whatever the that we just sleepwalk into whatever the that we just sleepwalk into whatever the new technology it's like everyone's new technology it's like everyone's new technology it's like everyone's using you know the latest LLM it's using you know the latest LLM it's using you know the latest LLM it's convenient um it brings down friction in convenient um it brings down friction in convenient um it brings down friction in my life and so we don't actually stop my life and so we don't actually stop my life and so we don't actually stop and think Is this wise before God? What

and think Is this wise before God? What and think Is this wise before God? What is this doing to me? We just think, hey, is this doing to me? We just think, hey, is this doing to me? We just think, hey, I can save a few minutes by doing this. I can save a few minutes by doing this. I can save a few minutes by doing this. Let's let's go. And that exercise is so Let's let's go. And that exercise is so Let's let's go. And that exercise is so helpful in just pressing pause on that helpful in just pressing pause on that helpful in just pressing pause on that instinct to make life easier all the instinct to make life easier all the instinct to make life easier all the time and and and to ask deeper questions time and and and to ask deeper questions time and and and to ask deeper questions about it. Mike, I I want to turn to to about it. Mike, I I want to turn to to about it. Mike, I I want to turn to to the future and the question of hope, the future and the question of hope, the future and the question of hope, which of course is a huge theme in the which of course is a huge theme in the which of course is a huge theme in the Bible, but also a really persistent and Bible, but also a really persistent and Bible, but also a really persistent and prominent theme in AI discourse today. prominent theme in AI discourse today. prominent theme in AI discourse today. There's a lot of hope going around, hope There's a lot of hope going around, hope There's a lot of hope going around, hope for what the future might be uh shaped for what the future might be uh shaped for what the future might be uh shaped by AI. Um, and how how as Christians who by AI. Um, and how how as Christians who by AI. Um, and how how as Christians who want to calibrate our lives by the want to calibrate our lives by the want to calibrate our lives by the Bible, can we avoid falling into these Bible, can we avoid falling into these Bible, can we avoid falling into these camps of either being an AI doomer um camps of either being an AI doomer um camps of either being an AI doomer um thinking that it's the worst thing to thinking that it's the worst thing to thinking that it's the worst thing to ever happen um uh without knowing quite ever happen um uh without knowing quite ever happen um uh without knowing quite why or or to be an AI boomer thinking why or or to be an AI boomer thinking why or or to be an AI boomer thinking it's going to solve all our problems, it's going to solve all our problems, it's going to solve all our problems, you know, next week. Um and what what you know, next week. Um and what what you know, next week. Um and what what does a distinctively Christian hope for does a distinctively Christian hope for does a distinctively Christian hope for the future look like? distinct from the the future look like? distinct from the the future look like? distinct from the sort of techno optimism you often see in sort of techno optimism you often see in sort of techno optimism you often see in AI circles.

AI circles. AI circles. >> Yeah. So, when I was a kid, and this is >> Yeah. So, when I was a kid, and this is >> Yeah. So, when I was a kid, and this is going to date me a little bit if you're going to date me a little bit if you're going to date me a little bit if you're younger than what I am, um we had these younger than what I am, um we had these younger than what I am, um we had these things called Rand McNal maps, and they things called Rand McNal maps, and they things called Rand McNal maps, and they were these things that were, you know, were these things that were, you know, were these things that were, you know, probably I don't know, a foot and 18 in probably I don't know, a foot and 18 in probably I don't know, a foot and 18 in by 18 in, you know, half a meter by half by 18 in, you know, half a meter by half by 18 in, you know, half a meter by half a meter, you know, and you'd have them a meter, you know, and you'd have them a meter, you know, and you'd have them in your car. You could get them at like in your car. You could get them at like in your car. You could get them at like the grocery checkout line. And at least the grocery checkout line. And at least the grocery checkout line. And at least in the United States, you know, before in the United States, you know, before in the United States, you know, before GPS, before smartphones and all this GPS, before smartphones and all this GPS, before smartphones and all this stuff, this is what you use to like kind stuff, this is what you use to like kind stuff, this is what you use to like kind of circumn especially, you know, of circumn especially, you know, of circumn especially, you know, interest you know, interstate trips. And interest you know, interstate trips. And interest you know, interstate trips. And um you know, if you're older, maybe a um you know, if you're older, maybe a um you know, if you're older, maybe a different or sorry, if you're younger different or sorry, if you're younger different or sorry, if you're younger than you know, than me, maybe a than you know, than me, maybe a than you know, than me, maybe a different analogy here might be uh the different analogy here might be uh the different analogy here might be uh the idea of Google Earth. Okay, so the Rand idea of Google Earth. Okay, so the Rand idea of Google Earth. Okay, so the Rand McNal maps would give you pretty McNal maps would give you pretty McNal maps would give you pretty detailed instructions, you know, about detailed instructions, you know, about detailed instructions, you know, about especially for like various metro areas especially for like various metro areas especially for like various metro areas and so you could really see like in and so you could really see like in and so you could really see like in tremendous detail of, hey, here's what's tremendous detail of, hey, here's what's tremendous detail of, hey, here's what's going, you know, here's how to circumn, going, you know, here's how to circumn, going, you know, here's how to circumn, you know, same thing with Google Earth you know, same thing with Google Earth you know, same thing with Google Earth when you're dealing with like satellite when you're dealing with like satellite when you're dealing with like satellite images and stuff like that and, you images and stuff like that and, you images and stuff like that and, you know, oh, you know, I've shown my kids know, oh, you know, I've shown my kids know, oh, you know, I've shown my kids like the Eiffel Tower and, you know, like the Eiffel Tower and, you know, like the Eiffel Tower and, you know, leaning to Tower of Pisa and whatnot, leaning to Tower of Pisa and whatnot, leaning to Tower of Pisa and whatnot, but like here's the The, you know, one but like here's the The, you know, one but like here's the The, you know, one one key in all of this is kind of how one key in all of this is kind of how one key in all of this is kind of how this technology functions. [snorts] You this technology functions. [snorts] You this technology functions. [snorts] You none of us would ever confuse a map or a none of us would ever confuse a map or a none of us would ever confuse a map or a satellite image from Google Earth as

satellite image from Google Earth as satellite image from Google Earth as being the same thing as being embodied being the same thing as being embodied being the same thing as being embodied in any of those locations. in any of those locations. in any of those locations. And so all of those technologies can And so all of those technologies can And so all of those technologies can tell us, you know, whether it's the Rand tell us, you know, whether it's the Rand tell us, you know, whether it's the Rand McN, Google Earth, or a large language McN, Google Earth, or a large language McN, Google Earth, or a large language model, they can tell us a lot of very model, they can tell us a lot of very model, they can tell us a lot of very important factual, even true information important factual, even true information important factual, even true information about various different things, but it's about various different things, but it's about various different things, but it's not the same thing. We would never not the same thing. We would never not the same thing. We would never confuse a map or a satellite image as confuse a map or a satellite image as confuse a map or a satellite image as being physically present and having being physically present and having being physically present and having experienced all of those things in our experienced all of those things in our experienced all of those things in our in our mind, body, and spirit. And so in our mind, body, and spirit. And so in our mind, body, and spirit. And so that's the so I want to start there in that's the so I want to start there in that's the so I want to start there in terms of framing. Okay. So I want to say terms of framing. Okay. So I want to say terms of framing. Okay. So I want to say that the technology is actually good and that the technology is actually good and that the technology is actually good and it's actually better than the technology it's actually better than the technology it's actually better than the technology that we've had. The map is improved. that we've had. The map is improved. that we've had. The map is improved. Um, but at the end of the day, it's also Um, but at the end of the day, it's also Um, but at the end of the day, it's also still a map. And so there are two things still a map. And so there are two things still a map. And so there are two things that I would want to say from a that I would want to say from a that I would want to say from a theological standpoint that I would push theological standpoint that I would push theological standpoint that I would push back for the people who are doomers. And back for the people who are doomers. And back for the people who are doomers. And the two doctrines that I would push back the two doctrines that I would push back the two doctrines that I would push back on would be um the doctrine of the on would be um the doctrine of the on would be um the doctrine of the providence of God. And we've talked providence of God. And we've talked providence of God. And we've talked about this, you know, in a number of about this, you know, in a number of about this, you know, in a number of different passages. You know, God's in different passages. You know, God's in different passages. You know, God's in control of all of history, all of control of all of history, all of control of all of history, all of creation. you know, Colossians 1, creation. you know, Colossians 1, creation. you know, Colossians 1, Ephesians, you know, all sorts of Ephesians, you know, all sorts of Ephesians, you know, all sorts of passages.

passages. passages. And then the second doctrine is the And then the second doctrine is the And then the second doctrine is the doctrine of common grace. Okay. So in doctrine of common grace. Okay. So in doctrine of common grace. Okay. So in the doctrine of common grace, there's the doctrine of common grace, there's the doctrine of common grace, there's all sorts of things that people, even all sorts of things that people, even all sorts of things that people, even people who don't have any kind of saving people who don't have any kind of saving people who don't have any kind of saving faith um or knowledge of the gospel, faith um or knowledge of the gospel, faith um or knowledge of the gospel, they can do things in culture and they can do things in culture and they can do things in culture and society that make dramatic improvements society that make dramatic improvements society that make dramatic improvements on the way in which we interact with our on the way in which we interact with our on the way in which we interact with our fallen world. And so there will be ways fallen world. And so there will be ways fallen world. And so there will be ways that AI functions in, you know, in a that AI functions in, you know, in a that AI functions in, you know, in a common grace standpoint. So take for common grace standpoint. So take for common grace standpoint. So take for example stuff like you know there will example stuff like you know there will example stuff like you know there will be medical advances you know stuff like be medical advances you know stuff like be medical advances you know stuff like uh cancer therapeutics, protein folding, uh cancer therapeutics, protein folding, uh cancer therapeutics, protein folding, genomics, early detection of you know um genomics, early detection of you know um genomics, early detection of you know um medical issues in people. Okay. So medical issues in people. Okay. So medical issues in people. Okay. So and there's all sorts of toil versus and there's all sorts of toil versus and there's all sorts of toil versus labor scenarios as well that will play labor scenarios as well that will play labor scenarios as well that will play themselves out. Okay. Now, the flip side themselves out. Okay. Now, the flip side themselves out. Okay. Now, the flip side of all of this is that, you know, and of all of this is that, you know, and of all of this is that, you know, and why I'm not like a radical techno why I'm not like a radical techno why I'm not like a radical techno optimist is optimist is optimist is is basically the diet of how large is basically the diet of how large is basically the diet of how large language models are trained. It's language models are trained. It's language models are trained. It's trained on human generated content. And trained on human generated content. And trained on human generated content. And what do we know theologically about what do we know theologically about what do we know theologically about humans? We're subject to the fall. And humans? We're subject to the fall. And humans? We're subject to the fall. And so every inherent weakness that's inside so every inherent weakness that's inside so every inherent weakness that's inside of all of us will be inside of all of of all of us will be inside of all of of all of us will be inside of all of this technology as well. And so I think this technology as well. And so I think this technology as well. And so I think that there's going to be all sorts of, that there's going to be all sorts of, that there's going to be all sorts of, you know, potential scenarios. I mean,

you know, potential scenarios. I mean, you know, potential scenarios. I mean, probably the scenario I'm most concerned probably the scenario I'm most concerned probably the scenario I'm most concerned about is is not like, you know, the about is is not like, you know, the about is is not like, you know, the Terminator, you know, scenario, Terminator, you know, scenario, Terminator, you know, scenario, whatever. Um, I mean, those are whatever. Um, I mean, those are whatever. Um, I mean, those are possible, right? But I think malicious possible, right? But I think malicious possible, right? But I think malicious software and the creation of malicious software and the creation of malicious software and the creation of malicious software will be the very first use software will be the very first use software will be the very first use case. You know, large language models case. You know, large language models case. You know, large language models are really really good at software are really really good at software are really really good at software coding. And so probably the first bad coding. And so probably the first bad coding. And so probably the first bad uses of AI will be or fallen uses of AI uses of AI will be or fallen uses of AI uses of AI will be or fallen uses of AI will be to write malicious code that will be to write malicious code that will be to write malicious code that creates attacks on key parts of creates attacks on key parts of creates attacks on key parts of infrastructure. stuff like the power infrastructure. stuff like the power infrastructure. stuff like the power grid or the integrity of the water grid or the integrity of the water grid or the integrity of the water supply um uh the integrity of financial supply um uh the integrity of financial supply um uh the integrity of financial transactions you know as they're moving transactions you know as they're moving transactions you know as they're moving around those different kinds of things. around those different kinds of things. around those different kinds of things. So I'm not a techno optimist because I So I'm not a techno optimist because I So I'm not a techno optimist because I don't think we necessarily have good don't think we necessarily have good don't think we necessarily have good answers for how to mitigate answers for how to mitigate answers for how to mitigate how these technologies will undo the how these technologies will undo the how these technologies will undo the fact that they've been trained by fallen fact that they've been trained by fallen fact that they've been trained by fallen humans. So those are reasons those are humans. So those are reasons those are humans. So those are reasons those are the primary reasons why I'm not a techno the primary reasons why I'm not a techno the primary reasons why I'm not a techno optimist. Also I think there's a lot of optimist. Also I think there's a lot of optimist. Also I think there's a lot of issues that still need to be hammered issues that still need to be hammered issues that still need to be hammered out on you know AI ethics and out on you know AI ethics and out on you know AI ethics and particularly as it as it relates to how particularly as it as it relates to how particularly as it as it relates to how we navigate children, parental controls, we navigate children, parental controls, we navigate children, parental controls, those kinds of things.

those kinds of things. those kinds of things. >> Absolutely. And I'd love to narrow down >> Absolutely. And I'd love to narrow down >> Absolutely. And I'd love to narrow down on on this with both of you. So So we on on this with both of you. So So we on on this with both of you. So So we like you said we're not doomers, we're like you said we're not doomers, we're like you said we're not doomers, we're not boomers. There's a a more discerning not boomers. There's a a more discerning not boomers. There's a a more discerning road that we're trying to travel. What road that we're trying to travel. What road that we're trying to travel. What does that road look like both of you for does that road look like both of you for does that road look like both of you for churches in particular? And and I' I'd churches in particular? And and I' I'd churches in particular? And and I' I'd love sort of one two sentence answers on love sort of one two sentence answers on love sort of one two sentence answers on this if if you're able. So where is AI this if if you're able. So where is AI this if if you're able. So where is AI most helpful for churches right now? One most helpful for churches right now? One most helpful for churches right now? One or two bullet points. And where is AI or two bullet points. And where is AI or two bullet points. And where is AI most dangerous for churches right now? most dangerous for churches right now? most dangerous for churches right now? >> Uh Keith, let's start with you. I think >> Uh Keith, let's start with you. I think >> Uh Keith, let's start with you. I think that uh it is most helpful for those that uh it is most helpful for those that uh it is most helpful for those things that aren't dealing with the things that aren't dealing with the things that aren't dealing with the relational component in terms of like relational component in terms of like relational component in terms of like scheduling and you know things like that scheduling and you know things like that scheduling and you know things like that some of those administrative tasks where some of those administrative tasks where some of those administrative tasks where it is most dangerous is where it is it is most dangerous is where it is it is most dangerous is where it is relied upon for what we might call the relied upon for what we might call the relied upon for what we might call the one anothers of scripture. where it is one anothers of scripture. where it is one anothers of scripture. where it is taking the place of um what the taking the place of um what the taking the place of um what the scriptures clearly portray as God's scriptures clearly portray as God's scriptures clearly portray as God's intent for human onhuman interaction.

intent for human onhuman interaction. intent for human onhuman interaction. the scenario that you gave at the the scenario that you gave at the the scenario that you gave at the beginning for example uh the person who beginning for example uh the person who beginning for example uh the person who says I know I should talk to the people says I know I should talk to the people says I know I should talk to the people at my small group and ask for prayer but at my small group and ask for prayer but at my small group and ask for prayer but um the the AI doesn't judge me doesn't um the the AI doesn't judge me doesn't um the the AI doesn't judge me doesn't yet it's so understanding and so forth yet it's so understanding and so forth yet it's so understanding and so forth that's a real danger because that is that's a real danger because that is that's a real danger because that is drawing away from something that God drawing away from something that God drawing away from something that God clearly commands and that is good for us clearly commands and that is good for us clearly commands and that is good for us >> Mike you nodding vigorously during >> Mike you nodding vigorously during >> Mike you nodding vigorously during Keith's answer there would you say Keith's answer there would you say Keith's answer there would you say similar things or Yeah, we don't want to similar things or Yeah, we don't want to similar things or Yeah, we don't want to use AF for anything that's relational in use AF for anything that's relational in use AF for anything that's relational in nature or to eliminate human or pastoral nature or to eliminate human or pastoral nature or to eliminate human or pastoral interactions. Um I think by and large interactions. Um I think by and large interactions. Um I think by and large churches should be analog environments. churches should be analog environments. churches should be analog environments. That being said, um the best piece of AI That being said, um the best piece of AI That being said, um the best piece of AI technology that I've seen in a church technology that I've seen in a church technology that I've seen in a church environment is this uh sermon environment is this uh sermon environment is this uh sermon translation um platform called Calo AI. translation um platform called Calo AI. translation um platform called Calo AI. Um, if you're listening to this and Um, if you're listening to this and Um, if you're listening to this and you're a pastor or whatever, um, what you're a pastor or whatever, um, what you're a pastor or whatever, um, what what this technology does is allows you what this technology does is allows you what this technology does is allows you to do real-time sermon translation live to do real-time sermon translation live to do real-time sermon translation live into any language for everybody who's into any language for everybody who's into any language for everybody who's inside your church. So, imagine somebody inside your church. So, imagine somebody inside your church. So, imagine somebody being able to just pop in, you know, a being able to just pop in, you know, a being able to just pop in, you know, a headphone earbud and be able to listen headphone earbud and be able to listen headphone earbud and be able to listen to you preach in their, you know, in to you preach in their, you know, in to you preach in their, you know, in their primary language. So, I think their primary language. So, I think their primary language. So, I think that's a very good use of artificial that's a very good use of artificial that's a very good use of artificial intelligence. Most AI is taking you away intelligence. Most AI is taking you away intelligence. Most AI is taking you away from primary sources and this is a way from primary sources and this is a way from primary sources and this is a way to bring you back into um primary to bring you back into um primary to bring you back into um primary sources. So um Cleo AI I think is um is

sources. So um Cleo AI I think is um is sources. So um Cleo AI I think is um is some really cool technology and um is some really cool technology and um is some really cool technology and um is really is really smart. really is really smart. really is really smart. >> Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you both for >> Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you both for >> Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you both for those sort of positive notes and those those sort of positive notes and those those sort of positive notes and those those notes of warning as well. I'm I'm those notes of warning as well. I'm I'm those notes of warning as well. I'm I'm asking all the guests who who come on asking all the guests who who come on asking all the guests who who come on this show uh two uh closing questions. this show uh two uh closing questions. this show uh two uh closing questions. uh what is one inefficient human habit uh what is one inefficient human habit uh what is one inefficient human habit that you're committed to keeping in the that you're committed to keeping in the that you're committed to keeping in the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, what age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, what age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, what do you think it's revealing to you do you think it's revealing to you do you think it's revealing to you personally about your own heart? Um personally about your own heart? Um personally about your own heart? Um Keith, what would be your reflections on Keith, what would be your reflections on Keith, what would be your reflections on on those questions? on those questions? on those questions? >> One of the uh inefficient human habits >> One of the uh inefficient human habits >> One of the uh inefficient human habits that I'm committed to is consulting with that I'm committed to is consulting with that I'm committed to is consulting with friends about life's problems. friends about life's problems. friends about life's problems. Um, yes. I I don't want to succumb to Um, yes. I I don't want to succumb to Um, yes. I I don't want to succumb to the convenience, the ease, the convenience, the ease, the convenience, the ease, uh, of putting in a prompt to deal with uh, of putting in a prompt to deal with uh, of putting in a prompt to deal with something that I really need, as we said something that I really need, as we said something that I really need, as we said before, wisdom from a trusted person before, wisdom from a trusted person before, wisdom from a trusted person from, and what does it reveal to me from, and what does it reveal to me from, and what does it reveal to me about my own heart? Uh, I am easily about my own heart? Uh, I am easily about my own heart? Uh, I am easily captivated by convenience and novelty.

captivated by convenience and novelty. captivated by convenience and novelty. Keith, you're not the only one. Um, Keith, you're not the only one. Um, Keith, you're not the only one. Um, it would be the brave would be the it would be the brave would be the it would be the brave would be the person who would say I convenience and person who would say I convenience and person who would say I convenience and novelty have no appeal to me whatsoever. novelty have no appeal to me whatsoever. novelty have no appeal to me whatsoever. Mike, what would you say? Mike, what would you say? Mike, what would you say? >> Yeah, I mean, I'd say something similar, >> Yeah, I mean, I'd say something similar, >> Yeah, I mean, I'd say something similar, you know, to the first question. you know, to the first question. you know, to the first question. Relationships are inefficient Relationships are inefficient Relationships are inefficient and that inefficiency is actually and that inefficiency is actually and that inefficiency is actually glorious and not bad. And so, and that glorious and not bad. And so, and that glorious and not bad. And so, and that does relate to the second question about does relate to the second question about does relate to the second question about the mirror. Um not all friction is bad. the mirror. Um not all friction is bad. the mirror. Um not all friction is bad. You know, I think in our technological You know, I think in our technological You know, I think in our technological era, the assumption is that all friction era, the assumption is that all friction era, the assumption is that all friction is bad. Um friction is actually good. Um is bad. Um friction is actually good. Um is bad. Um friction is actually good. Um and so the the underlying principle and so the the underlying principle and so the the underlying principle there is not all efficiency is good and there is not all efficiency is good and there is not all efficiency is good and profitable. And I say this as somebody profitable. And I say this as somebody profitable. And I say this as somebody who's made his living on efficiency. you who's made his living on efficiency. you who's made his living on efficiency. you know um efficiency is one of the highest know um efficiency is one of the highest know um efficiency is one of the highest values that I have as a person but values that I have as a person but values that I have as a person but you know not all efficiency is to be you you know not all efficiency is to be you you know not all efficiency is to be you know here here's a here's a final know here here's a here's a final know here here's a here's a final principle and I think trust is the most principle and I think trust is the most principle and I think trust is the most important commodity of the next decade important commodity of the next decade important commodity of the next decade and I think the fastest way to blow and I think the fastest way to blow and I think the fastest way to blow trust in this next decade is going to be trust in this next decade is going to be trust in this next decade is going to be over reliance on artificial intelligence over reliance on artificial intelligence over reliance on artificial intelligence in your thinking and in your relating in your thinking and in your relating in your thinking and in your relating with other people. People are going to

with other people. People are going to with other people. People are going to eventually eventually eventually want to know that, man, Keith really want to know that, man, Keith really want to know that, man, Keith really loves me. Chris really loves me. Mike loves me. Chris really loves me. Mike loves me. Chris really loves me. Mike really loves me. They really care about really loves me. They really care about really loves me. They really care about me and my soul. And they're not going to me and my soul. And they're not going to me and my soul. And they're not going to outsource thinking, wisdom, thinking, wisdom, writing, you know, meeting together, writing, you know, meeting together, writing, you know, meeting together, gathering, you know, to technology when gathering, you know, to technology when gathering, you know, to technology when they could. they could. they could. >> I've never heard that thought put as >> I've never heard that thought put as >> I've never heard that thought put as clearly as that. Um, [clears throat] clearly as that. Um, [clears throat] clearly as that. Um, [clears throat] what a what a powerful what a what a powerful what a what a powerful idea that is and a word in season to us, idea that is and a word in season to us, idea that is and a word in season to us, I think, as this technology sort of I think, as this technology sort of I think, as this technology sort of grows. Um, to remember the preciousness grows. Um, to remember the preciousness grows. Um, to remember the preciousness of trust. And of course that it's right of trust. And of course that it's right of trust. And of course that it's right at the heart of the Christian message, at the heart of the Christian message, at the heart of the Christian message, isn't it? The the faith we have in God, isn't it? The the faith we have in God, isn't it? The the faith we have in God, the way that we can trust him, trust is the way that we can trust him, trust is the way that we can trust him, trust is central to who we are as Christians. Uh central to who we are as Christians. Uh central to who we are as Christians. Uh and let us guard it fiercely against all and let us guard it fiercely against all and let us guard it fiercely against all threats to it. Um threats to it. Um threats to it. Um we have raised a lot of thoughts uh over we have raised a lot of thoughts uh over we have raised a lot of thoughts uh over uh the past uh few minutes and if you uh the past uh few minutes and if you uh the past uh few minutes and if you want to take any of those ideas further want to take any of those ideas further want to take any of those ideas further could I invite you to join the Silicon could I invite you to join the Silicon could I invite you to join the Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh where we're Spiritualities Discord uh where we're Spiritualities Discord uh where we're learning together how to follow Jesus in learning together how to follow Jesus in learning together how to follow Jesus in a text saturated world. Uh if if you pop a text saturated world. Uh if if you pop a text saturated world. Uh if if you pop on the Discord, you'll find practical on the Discord, you'll find practical on the Discord, you'll find practical experiments like the one that Keith was experiments like the one that Keith was experiments like the one that Keith was sharing with us earlier uh related to sharing with us earlier uh related to sharing with us earlier uh related to every episode of this series and you'll every episode of this series and you'll every episode of this series and you'll also find details of an upcoming online also find details of an upcoming online also find details of an upcoming online cohort as well if you want to take these cohort as well if you want to take these cohort as well if you want to take these ideas further. The link is waiting for

ideas further. The link is waiting for ideas further. The link is waiting for you in the show notes and we'd love to you in the show notes and we'd love to you in the show notes and we'd love to see you there. Keith Mike, this has been see you there. Keith Mike, this has been see you there. Keith Mike, this has been an incredibly enriching conversation for an incredibly enriching conversation for an incredibly enriching conversation for me. I'm deeply grateful uh for your me. I'm deeply grateful uh for your me. I'm deeply grateful uh for your time. Thank you very much for joining us time. Thank you very much for joining us time. Thank you very much for joining us on Silicon Spiritualities. Thank you, on Silicon Spiritualities. Thank you, on Silicon Spiritualities. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Chris.