On Losing Tim and Why Kathy Keller Published a Book of His Sermons on Sin [Gospelbound - Ep. 182]

the sin behind the sin or [music] the the sin behind the sin or [music] the sin underneath the sin, the desire to sin underneath the sin, the desire to sin underneath the sin, the desire to to be comfortable or the desire to be in to be comfortable or the desire to be in to be comfortable or the desire to be in power, the desire to avoid criticism or power, the desire to avoid criticism or power, the desire to avoid criticism or the desire to be accepted, [music] the desire to be accepted, [music] the desire to be accepted, [music] all of those things all of those things all of those things are the actual sins, the soil out of are the actual sins, the soil out of are the actual sins, the soil out of which which which the small actions that [music] we the small actions that [music] we the small actions that [music] we identify as sins identify as sins identify as sins grow out of, but it's the big things grow out of, but it's the big things grow out of, but it's the big things that stay hidden. that stay hidden. that stay hidden. >> [music] >> Tim Keller preached a series of sermons >> Tim Keller preached a series of sermons in the 1990s called the faces of sin. in the 1990s called the faces of sin. in the 1990s called the faces of sin. It did not go over well with everyone in It did not go over well with everyone in It did not go over well with everyone in [music] New York. Angered by the [music] New York. Angered by the [music] New York. Angered by the Redeemer Presbyterian Church's Redeemer Presbyterian Church's Redeemer Presbyterian Church's liturgical confession of sin, one woman liturgical confession of sin, one woman liturgical confession of sin, one woman waited until after the sermon and yelled waited until after the sermon and yelled waited until after the sermon and yelled at Tim, quote, "Neither I nor any of my at Tim, quote, "Neither I nor any of my at Tim, quote, "Neither I nor any of my children will ever confess to being children will ever confess to being children will ever confess to being sinners."

sinners." sinners." Well, naturally, Tim's wife, Kathy, Well, naturally, Tim's wife, Kathy, Well, naturally, Tim's wife, Kathy, decided these would be good sermons to decided these would be good sermons to decided these would be good sermons to turn into a book. And that's what we turn into a book. And that's what we turn into a book. And that's what we have in the new book, What Is Wrong With have in the new book, What Is Wrong With have in the new book, What Is Wrong With the World, a surprisingly hopeful answer the World, a surprisingly hopeful answer the World, a surprisingly hopeful answer to the question we cannot avoid, to the question we cannot avoid, to the question we cannot avoid, published by Zondervan. published by Zondervan. published by Zondervan. There's a quote here that I think There's a quote here that I think There's a quote here that I think captures the book's argument, and it's captures the book's argument, and it's captures the book's argument, and it's this, quote, "When we realize we are not this, quote, "When we realize we are not this, quote, "When we realize we are not a victim of our circumstances, but a a victim of our circumstances, but a a victim of our circumstances, but a sinner who can call on someone much sinner who can call on someone much sinner who can call on someone much greater than ourselves to care for us, greater than ourselves to care for us, greater than ourselves to care for us, we can be we can begin to truly live." we can be we can begin to truly live." we can be we can begin to truly live." And that, of course, is the surprisingly And that, of course, is the surprisingly And that, of course, is the surprisingly hopeful message of the gospel. Our sin hopeful message of the gospel. Our sin hopeful message of the gospel. Our sin is the problem with the world, but we is the problem with the world, but we is the problem with the world, but we can all be saved by grace when we can all be saved by grace when we can all be saved by grace when we confess of that sin, repent of that sin, confess of that sin, repent of that sin, confess of that sin, repent of that sin, and trust in Christ. and trust in Christ. and trust in Christ. I mean, easy enough, right? But remember I mean, easy enough, right? But remember I mean, easy enough, right? But remember that woman in New York, it's no small that woman in New York, it's no small that woman in New York, it's no small thing to confess your sin, and all of us thing to confess your sin, and all of us thing to confess your sin, and all of us must confess our sin. Here again is what must confess our sin. Here again is what must confess our sin. Here again is what Tim wrote, quote, "No other religion Tim wrote, quote, "No other religion Tim wrote, quote, "No other religion says that the lowest person in the says that the lowest person in the says that the lowest person in the gutter and the most moral, upstanding gutter and the most moral, upstanding gutter and the most moral, upstanding citizen in the world are equally lost, citizen in the world are equally lost, citizen in the world are equally lost, equally need to be saved by grace, and equally need to be saved by grace, and equally need to be saved by grace, and can only be saved by grace alone."

can only be saved by grace alone." can only be saved by grace alone." Well, what an honor to be joined again Well, what an honor to be joined again Well, what an honor to be joined again on Gospelbound by Kathy Keller to talk on Gospelbound by Kathy Keller to talk on Gospelbound by Kathy Keller to talk about sin, grace, and the gospel. Kathy, about sin, grace, and the gospel. Kathy, about sin, grace, and the gospel. Kathy, welcome back. Thank you so much for welcome back. Thank you so much for welcome back. Thank you so much for having me, Colin. having me, Colin. having me, Colin. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> Now, Kathy, this quote from the book is >> Now, Kathy, this quote from the book is >> Now, Kathy, this quote from the book is true to my life and experience. It's true to my life and experience. It's true to my life and experience. It's this, "If you feel like nothing after this, "If you feel like nothing after this, "If you feel like nothing after you lose something, you lose something, you lose something, it means that the thing you lost was it means that the thing you lost was it means that the thing you lost was your everything." your everything." your everything." It's sort of a personal question, Kathy, It's sort of a personal question, Kathy, It's sort of a personal question, Kathy, but I'm wondering, how have you walked but I'm wondering, how have you walked but I'm wondering, how have you walked in that truth over over the years, over in that truth over over the years, over in that truth over over the years, over your life? your life? your life? Well, Tim and I used to jokingly quote Well, Tim and I used to jokingly quote Well, Tim and I used to jokingly quote John Newton, where he says the biggest John Newton, where he says the biggest John Newton, where he says the biggest danger of a happy marriage is idolatry. danger of a happy marriage is idolatry. danger of a happy marriage is idolatry. But until he died, I don't think But until he died, I don't think But until he died, I don't think I realized the depth and the power of I realized the depth and the power of I realized the depth and the power of that. that. that. Um I don't know whether even Newton Um I don't know whether even Newton Um I don't know whether even Newton would have until you have lost the thing would have until you have lost the thing would have until you have lost the thing that you have made the idol, and I that you have made the idol, and I that you have made the idol, and I certainly did with Tim. Um certainly did with Tim. Um certainly did with Tim. Um It was It was It was um um um deep idolatry, and I deep idolatry, and I deep idolatry, and I uh am so glad I have a savior who can uh am so glad I have a savior who can uh am so glad I have a savior who can deal with that. I remember as a young deal with that. I remember as a young deal with that. I remember as a young Christian, you know, you say, "Oh, I'm Christian, you know, you say, "Oh, I'm Christian, you know, you say, "Oh, I'm going to read the Bible." And you start going to read the Bible." And you start going to read the Bible." And you start in the Old Testament and go forward, in the Old Testament and go forward, in the Old Testament and go forward, bogged down a little bit in Leviticus, bogged down a little bit in Leviticus, bogged down a little bit in Leviticus, Numbers, et cetera.

Numbers, et cetera. Numbers, et cetera. But at some point in there, I remember But at some point in there, I remember But at some point in there, I remember thinking, "This book needed a good thinking, "This book needed a good thinking, "This book needed a good editor because there's so much in it editor because there's so much in it editor because there's so much in it about idolatry, and we don't have an about idolatry, and we don't have an about idolatry, and we don't have an idolatry problem anymore. Who has little idolatry problem anymore. Who has little idolatry problem anymore. Who has little idols in their house and, you know, idols in their house and, you know, idols in their house and, you know, burning incense or whatever to them?" burning incense or whatever to them?" burning incense or whatever to them?" Um that's just not a problem anymore, Um that's just not a problem anymore, Um that's just not a problem anymore, and that's just another example of the and that's just another example of the and that's just another example of the Kathy Keller um Kathy Keller um Kathy Keller um GPS, which is whichever direction I'm GPS, which is whichever direction I'm GPS, which is whichever direction I'm pointing, go the opposite direction if pointing, go the opposite direction if pointing, go the opposite direction if you want to find the truth, because that you want to find the truth, because that you want to find the truth, because that was just completely wrong. I mean, God was just completely wrong. I mean, God was just completely wrong. I mean, God was talking about idols made by hands, was talking about idols made by hands, was talking about idols made by hands, but the ones that are not made by hands but the ones that are not made by hands but the ones that are not made by hands are deeper because they're invisible. are deeper because they're invisible. are deeper because they're invisible. Well, here's a another another quote Well, here's a another another quote Well, here's a another another quote here from the book, and that is, "We here from the book, and that is, "We here from the book, and that is, "We never see what is obvious to others." never see what is obvious to others." never see what is obvious to others." Um how do we build the kind of Um how do we build the kind of Um how do we build the kind of community, Kathy? And that's one thing I community, Kathy? And that's one thing I community, Kathy? And that's one thing I know with with your friends, um over a know with with your friends, um over a know with with your friends, um over a long period of time, your church, in so long period of time, your church, in so long period of time, your church, in so many ways. How do we build the kind of many ways. How do we build the kind of many ways. How do we build the kind of community that can help us then with community that can help us then with community that can help us then with those blind spots? Cuz that goes back to those blind spots? Cuz that goes back to those blind spots? Cuz that goes back to idolatry, right? What's so obvious to idolatry, right? What's so obvious to idolatry, right? What's so obvious to others not always obvious to us. That is others not always obvious to us. That is others not always obvious to us. That is a very hard thing. Um a very hard thing. Um a very hard thing. Um You've heard everybody's heard the the You've heard everybody's heard the the You've heard everybody's heard the the little proverb, but you can't see the little proverb, but you can't see the little proverb, but you can't see the forest for the trees.

forest for the trees. forest for the trees. And I think we're all familiar with sins And I think we're all familiar with sins And I think we're all familiar with sins that are small. If you kick a puppy or that are small. If you kick a puppy or that are small. If you kick a puppy or if you steal a kid's lollipop or if you if you steal a kid's lollipop or if you if you steal a kid's lollipop or if you shoplift a something from, you know, the shoplift a something from, you know, the shoplift a something from, you know, the Duane Reade or the Walgreens or Duane Reade or the Walgreens or Duane Reade or the Walgreens or something like that, that's wrong, something like that, that's wrong, something like that, that's wrong, that's bad, that was a sin. Okay, but that's bad, that was a sin. Okay, but that's bad, that was a sin. Okay, but the sin behind the sin or the sin the sin behind the sin or the sin the sin behind the sin or the sin underneath the sin, the desire to underneath the sin, the desire to underneath the sin, the desire to to be comfortable or the desire to be in to be comfortable or the desire to be in to be comfortable or the desire to be in power, the desire to avoid criticism or power, the desire to avoid criticism or power, the desire to avoid criticism or the desire to be accepted, all of those the desire to be accepted, all of those the desire to be accepted, all of those things things things are the actual sins, the soil out of are the actual sins, the soil out of are the actual sins, the soil out of which which which the small actions that we identify as the small actions that we identify as the small actions that we identify as sins sins sins grow out of, but it's the big things grow out of, but it's the big things grow out of, but it's the big things that stay hidden. And that stay hidden. And that stay hidden. And to have a church that to have a church that to have a church that can help people with that, I think can help people with that, I think can help people with that, I think you've just got to keep preaching the you've just got to keep preaching the you've just got to keep preaching the gospel over and over, and you've got to gospel over and over, and you've got to gospel over and over, and you've got to keep saying things like this, the sin keep saying things like this, the sin keep saying things like this, the sin underneath your sin. Tim said it so underneath your sin. Tim said it so underneath your sin. Tim said it so often that, you know, people did say it often that, you know, people did say it often that, you know, people did say it to one another. Or they confessed it by to one another. Or they confessed it by to one another. Or they confessed it by themselves, "The sin underneath my sin themselves, "The sin underneath my sin themselves, "The sin underneath my sin here is not, you know, it is feeling here is not, you know, it is feeling here is not, you know, it is feeling like There was a situation where one like There was a situation where one like There was a situation where one woman who did some pro bono work as a woman who did some pro bono work as a woman who did some pro bono work as a lawyer, lawyer, lawyer, but she did expect to be compensated but she did expect to be compensated but she did expect to be compensated somehow because it was long and arduous, somehow because it was long and arduous, somehow because it was long and arduous, et cetera, but she had volunteered. And et cetera, but she had volunteered. And et cetera, but she had volunteered. And the other woman said, "No, no, I'm not the other woman said, "No, no, I'm not the other woman said, "No, no, I'm not going to give you anything." And was

going to give you anything." And was going to give you anything." And was really pretty catty about it. And she really pretty catty about it. And she really pretty catty about it. And she was livid, just livid. was livid, just livid. was livid, just livid. And she knew you couldn't take somebody And she knew you couldn't take somebody And she knew you couldn't take somebody to court if they were another Christian. to court if they were another Christian. to court if they were another Christian. So she came to the elders, and she she So she came to the elders, and she she So she came to the elders, and she she she confessed. She said, "I think what's she confessed. She said, "I think what's she confessed. She said, "I think what's going on, it's the sin underneath my sin going on, it's the sin underneath my sin going on, it's the sin underneath my sin is that it's not that I'm angry at not is that it's not that I'm angry at not is that it's not that I'm angry at not getting getting getting paid or thanked or, you know, for the paid or thanked or, you know, for the paid or thanked or, you know, for the work I did. It's the the sin where I work I did. It's the the sin where I work I did. It's the the sin where I want to be seen as want to be seen as want to be seen as um competent, and I want to be seen as um competent, and I want to be seen as um competent, and I want to be seen as generous, and I want people to notice generous, and I want people to notice generous, and I want people to notice that and to be not taken that and to be not taken that and to be not taken um um um as a person of of competence and as a person of of competence and as a person of of competence and generosity really hits me where my true generosity really hits me where my true generosity really hits me where my true sins are." sins are." sins are." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Now, here's a Now, here's a Now, here's a related here, a countercultural related here, a countercultural related here, a countercultural statement today, and I'm sure it was statement today, and I'm sure it was statement today, and I'm sure it was countercultural when it was preached at countercultural when it was preached at countercultural when it was preached at preached at Redeemer, and still, maybe preached at Redeemer, and still, maybe preached at Redeemer, and still, maybe even more so, I'm not sure, today.

even more so, I'm not sure, today. even more so, I'm not sure, today. Um but this is again from the book. "My Um but this is again from the book. "My Um but this is again from the book. "My problems are because of my sin. problems are because of my sin. problems are because of my sin. The main problem in my life is my sin, The main problem in my life is my sin, The main problem in my life is my sin, not what has been done to me." not what has been done to me." not what has been done to me." Now, we know that this is not Now, we know that this is not Now, we know that this is not necessarily mutually exclusive, that we necessarily mutually exclusive, that we necessarily mutually exclusive, that we can can can both things can be true at the same both things can be true at the same both things can be true at the same time, that the main problem would be time, that the main problem would be time, that the main problem would be this, and then also we can have other this, and then also we can have other this, and then also we can have other problems as well. But I want to focus problems as well. But I want to focus problems as well. But I want to focus really on that point, that when we're really on that point, that when we're really on that point, that when we're looking at our need and our sin, and looking at our need and our sin, and looking at our need and our sin, and we're looking at confession, we're we're looking at confession, we're we're looking at confession, we're starting with ourselves. starting with ourselves. starting with ourselves. Um we're not always externalizing these Um we're not always externalizing these Um we're not always externalizing these problems, but we're starting with problems, but we're starting with problems, but we're starting with ourselves. I was wondering, Kathy, ourselves. I was wondering, Kathy, ourselves. I was wondering, Kathy, overall, what difference does it make overall, what difference does it make overall, what difference does it make when we approach life this way, "My when we approach life this way, "My when we approach life this way, "My problems are because of my sin." problems are because of my sin." problems are because of my sin." Um Um Um Um I'm sure that everybody Well, I'm not Um I'm sure that everybody Well, I'm not Um I'm sure that everybody Well, I'm not everybody. I'm sure that many people everybody. I'm sure that many people everybody. I'm sure that many people have heard. I'm sure that you have heard have heard. I'm sure that you have heard have heard. I'm sure that you have heard um G.K. Chesterton's answer to that um G.K. Chesterton's answer to that um G.K. Chesterton's answer to that question. The question. The question. The the newspaper basically put out a a the newspaper basically put out a a the newspaper basically put out a a questionnaire saying, "What's wrong with questionnaire saying, "What's wrong with questionnaire saying, "What's wrong with the world?" You know, the world?" You know, the world?" You know, we didn't steal the title from them, but we didn't steal the title from them, but we didn't steal the title from them, but we could [laughter] have.

we could [laughter] have. we could [laughter] have. And And And G.K. Chesterton wrote in, G.K. Chesterton wrote in, G.K. Chesterton wrote in, "I am." Signed G.K. Chesterton. And, you "I am." Signed G.K. Chesterton. And, you "I am." Signed G.K. Chesterton. And, you know, meaning know, meaning know, meaning we all are individually, you know, and we all are individually, you know, and we all are individually, you know, and he was taking responsibility for his he was taking responsibility for his he was taking responsibility for his contribution contribution contribution to making the world a bad place to making the world a bad place to making the world a bad place through [snorts] his own sinfulness, through [snorts] his own sinfulness, through [snorts] his own sinfulness, through his own choices, through his own through his own choices, through his own through his own choices, through his own uh omissions. I mean, the sins of uh omissions. I mean, the sins of uh omissions. I mean, the sins of omissions, I think, omissions, I think, omissions, I think, >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> need to be preached against more than >> need to be preached against more than >> need to be preached against more than the sins of commission because the sins of commission because the sins of commission because the things that you do, you can see the things that you do, you can see the things that you do, you can see them, other people can see them, other them, other people can see them, other them, other people can see them, other people can confront you about them. The people can confront you about them. The people can confront you about them. The things that you're not doing, that you things that you're not doing, that you things that you're not doing, that you should be doing, should be doing, should be doing, the the kindnesses that you failed to the the kindnesses that you failed to the the kindnesses that you failed to show, and the words of affirmation that show, and the words of affirmation that show, and the words of affirmation that you failed to give, and the you failed to give, and the you failed to give, and the um um um the generosity that you withhold, all of the generosity that you withhold, all of the generosity that you withhold, all of those things those things those things are are are far bigger than, as I said, kicking a far bigger than, as I said, kicking a far bigger than, as I said, kicking a puppy or stealing a lollipop.

puppy or stealing a lollipop. puppy or stealing a lollipop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I I I go back to that part of the Oh, I I I go back to that part of the Oh, I I I go back to that part of the Anglican liturgy all the time. Anglican liturgy all the time. Anglican liturgy all the time. Um there's some sense of delusion, I Um there's some sense of delusion, I Um there's some sense of delusion, I think, that we have that we can think, that we have that we can think, that we have that we can eliminate the sins of commission. eliminate the sins of commission. eliminate the sins of commission. But if you ever think that we can But if you ever think that we can But if you ever think that we can advance toward perfect holiness in this advance toward perfect holiness in this advance toward perfect holiness in this life, it seems like that can that life, it seems like that can that life, it seems like that can that delusion can be cured pretty easily by delusion can be cured pretty easily by delusion can be cured pretty easily by considering the sins of omission. considering the sins of omission. considering the sins of omission. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> How much more loving could we be toward >> How much more loving could we be toward >> How much more loving could we be toward God and to our neighbors? How much more God and to our neighbors? How much more God and to our neighbors? How much more could we do? And that's where all of a could we do? And that's where all of a could we do? And that's where all of a sudden it becomes oppressive and scary sudden it becomes oppressive and scary sudden it becomes oppressive and scary to think about how far we fall short of to think about how far we fall short of to think about how far we fall short of the example that Christ himself gave, the example that Christ himself gave, the example that Christ himself gave, let alone the law that is laid out for let alone the law that is laid out for let alone the law that is laid out for us in the scriptures. Well, I think it's us in the scriptures. Well, I think it's us in the scriptures. Well, I think it's interesting when you when you read those interesting when you when you read those interesting when you when you read those verses in Romans, "No one seeks God, no, verses in Romans, "No one seeks God, no, verses in Romans, "No one seeks God, no, not one." You know, everyone falls not one." You know, everyone falls not one." You know, everyone falls short, blah blah blah. short, blah blah blah. short, blah blah blah. I always thought falling short was kind I always thought falling short was kind I always thought falling short was kind of a lame definition of sin. But when of a lame definition of sin. But when of a lame definition of sin. But when you're considering the sins of omission, you're considering the sins of omission, you're considering the sins of omission, it's actually perfect because it's actually perfect because it's actually perfect because you have failed to do positively those you have failed to do positively those you have failed to do positively those things things things that God enjoins on you. We we are kind that God enjoins on you. We we are kind that God enjoins on you. We we are kind of aware what the when we do something of aware what the when we do something of aware what the when we do something negative, negative, negative, but we're able to sort of but we're able to sort of but we're able to sort of gloss over the things that we just have gloss over the things that we just have gloss over the things that we just have failed to do failed to do failed to do for God, for our neighbor. I mean, Jesus for God, for our neighbor. I mean, Jesus for God, for our neighbor. I mean, Jesus boiled it down to loving God with all boiled it down to loving God with all boiled it down to loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, your heart, soul, mind, your heart, soul, mind, and spirit. I forget the amount of and spirit. I forget the amount of and spirit. I forget the amount of order.

order. order. >> Strength, yeah. >> Strength, yeah. >> Strength, yeah. >> And your neighbor as yourself. >> And your neighbor as yourself. >> And your neighbor as yourself. Well, there's a lot of omission there. Well, there's a lot of omission there. Well, there's a lot of omission there. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> All with all of your heart. >> All with all of your heart. >> All with all of your heart. >> all. All. >> all. All. >> all. All. So, there's there's So, there's there's So, there's there's a lot of room for omission there. It a lot of room for omission there. It a lot of room for omission there. It doesn't list a whole bunch of doesn't list a whole bunch of doesn't list a whole bunch of not even the 10 Commandments because not even the 10 Commandments because not even the 10 Commandments because it's all subsumed under the positive it's all subsumed under the positive it's all subsumed under the positive things you should be doing. Yeah. things you should be doing. Yeah. things you should be doing. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um another quote here from from the Um another quote here from from the Um another quote here from from the book, "In talking to Kathy Keller about book, "In talking to Kathy Keller about book, "In talking to Kathy Keller about what is wrong with the world, a what is wrong with the world, a what is wrong with the world, a surprising hopeful answer to the surprising hopeful answer to the surprising hopeful answer to the question we cannot avoid." question we cannot avoid." question we cannot avoid." >> What is wrong with the >> What is wrong with the >> What is wrong with the >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Actually, that has to be pronounced a >> Actually, that has to be pronounced a >> Actually, that has to be pronounced a certain way. We should have given a certain way. We should have given a certain way. We should have given a little little uh audio clip to go with little little uh audio clip to go with little little uh audio clip to go with it. Needs to be pronounced "What is it. Needs to be pronounced "What is it. Needs to be pronounced "What is wrong with the world?" [laughter] wrong with the world?" [laughter] wrong with the world?" [laughter] Oh, that's right. A little pronunciation Oh, that's right. A little pronunciation Oh, that's right. A little pronunciation guide to go along with it. Well, there's guide to go along with it. Well, there's guide to go along with it. Well, there's another part that stood out, "The another part that stood out, "The another part that stood out, "The demands of the gospel," this is a quote, demands of the gospel," this is a quote, demands of the gospel," this is a quote, "The demands of the gospel and its "The demands of the gospel and its "The demands of the gospel and its tearing down of our pridefulness are tearing down of our pridefulness are tearing down of our pridefulness are insulting."

insulting." insulting." Uh the outside of the gospel is bitter Uh the outside of the gospel is bitter Uh the outside of the gospel is bitter at first bite, but the inside is at first bite, but the inside is at first bite, but the inside is infinitely sweet. infinitely sweet. infinitely sweet. Again, sort of a personal question, have Again, sort of a personal question, have Again, sort of a personal question, have you experienced uh Kathy, the sweetness you experienced uh Kathy, the sweetness you experienced uh Kathy, the sweetness over the years? over the years? over the years? Good question. I've been heard to say on Good question. I've been heard to say on Good question. I've been heard to say on many occasions that my many occasions that my many occasions that my my joy meter doesn't really go past just my joy meter doesn't really go past just my joy meter doesn't really go past just contentment. It doesn't really go all contentment. It doesn't really go all contentment. It doesn't really go all the way to joy. And that, I think, was the way to joy. And that, I think, was the way to joy. And that, I think, was because there were sins of omission in because there were sins of omission in because there were sins of omission in my relationship to God. I knew my my relationship to God. I knew my my relationship to God. I knew my theology, I knew I was saved, and, you theology, I knew I was saved, and, you theology, I knew I was saved, and, you know, let's get on with the what's what know, let's get on with the what's what know, let's get on with the what's what the to-do list for today. There wasn't the to-do list for today. There wasn't the to-do list for today. There wasn't enough worship in my life. enough worship in my life. enough worship in my life. Um Um Um the sweetness that I'm experiencing now the sweetness that I'm experiencing now the sweetness that I'm experiencing now in my later years and without Tim, in my later years and without Tim, in my later years and without Tim, uh and I wish I wish so wish I could uh and I wish I wish so wish I could uh and I wish I wish so wish I could tell him about this tell him about this tell him about this is is is that God came for me anyway.

that God came for me anyway. that God came for me anyway. He didn't cast me out. He didn't cast me out. He didn't cast me out. I think any rational person I think any rational person I think any rational person who's been a Christian for few years, who's been a Christian for few years, who's been a Christian for few years, many years in my case, many years in my case, many years in my case, should be asking themselves the should be asking themselves the should be asking themselves the question, "Have I committed the question, "Have I committed the question, "Have I committed the unforgivable sin?" You know, I know all unforgivable sin?" You know, I know all unforgivable sin?" You know, I know all these things about truth and about God's these things about truth and about God's these things about truth and about God's grace and about Jesus dying for me, and grace and about Jesus dying for me, and grace and about Jesus dying for me, and yet I keep on going to the wrong place. yet I keep on going to the wrong place. yet I keep on going to the wrong place. I keep on doing the wrong things. You I keep on doing the wrong things. You I keep on doing the wrong things. You know, God certainly is fed up with me by know, God certainly is fed up with me by know, God certainly is fed up with me by now. now. now. But um But um But um I don't often go to Instagram for my I don't often go to Instagram for my I don't often go to Instagram for my theology, theology, theology, but I did see a post the other day that but I did see a post the other day that but I did see a post the other day that said, "This should be a comforting said, "This should be a comforting said, "This should be a comforting thought. When God put a calling on your thought. When God put a calling on your thought. When God put a calling on your life, he factored in your stupidity." life, he factored in your stupidity." life, he factored in your stupidity." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I could you could change the word >> And I could you could change the word >> And I could you could change the word stupidity to sinfulness. stupidity to sinfulness. stupidity to sinfulness. I mean, I mean, I mean, um um um I just did a talk for a city to city on I just did a talk for a city to city on I just did a talk for a city to city on eternity and time and all this stuff in eternity and time and all this stuff in eternity and time and all this stuff in it about Jesus being slain before the it about Jesus being slain before the it about Jesus being slain before the foundation of the world and foundation of the world and foundation of the world and the grace that was ours before the the grace that was ours before the the grace that was ours before the foundation of time and all the things foundation of time and all the things foundation of time and all the things that seem to indicate that seem to indicate that seem to indicate um um um to use a more super lapsarian kind of to use a more super lapsarian kind of to use a more super lapsarian kind of point of view, which I would never have point of view, which I would never have point of view, which I would never have dreamed myself of espousing, but that dreamed myself of espousing, but that dreamed myself of espousing, but that redemption was always going to be a a redemption was always going to be a a redemption was always going to be a a consequence of creation. As soon as consequence of creation. As soon as consequence of creation. As soon as there was something besides God, as soon there was something besides God, as soon there was something besides God, as soon as there was God and the first molecule,

as there was God and the first molecule, as there was God and the first molecule, not God, not God, not God, there was going to be a choice in front there was going to be a choice in front there was going to be a choice in front of people, and we were always going to of people, and we were always going to of people, and we were always going to make the wrong choice. So, that make the wrong choice. So, that make the wrong choice. So, that when Jesus says "Tetelestai" when Jesus says "Tetelestai" when Jesus says "Tetelestai" from the cross, he's definitely saying from the cross, he's definitely saying from the cross, he's definitely saying your redemption has been accomplished. your redemption has been accomplished. your redemption has been accomplished. But what if he's also saying But what if he's also saying But what if he's also saying "Creation has finally reached its "Creation has finally reached its "Creation has finally reached its conclusion. I have uh you know, instead conclusion. I have uh you know, instead conclusion. I have uh you know, instead of having the separate categories of of having the separate categories of of having the separate categories of creation, fall, redemption, restoration, creation, fall, redemption, restoration, creation, fall, redemption, restoration, what if it's all one moment from the what if it's all one moment from the what if it's all one moment from the viewpoint of eternity? That when when viewpoint of eternity? That when when viewpoint of eternity? That when when the triune God said, 'Let's make a the triune God said, 'Let's make a the triune God said, 'Let's make a world,' world,' world,' the the the the the the absolute um absolute um absolute um consequence of that was always going to consequence of that was always going to consequence of that was always going to entail the son voluntarily dying to entail the son voluntarily dying to entail the son voluntarily dying to redeem it, and redeem it, and redeem it, and um um um thinking along those lines has been very thinking along those lines has been very thinking along those lines has been very sweet that sweet that sweet that um that I'm secure. God factored he knew me that I'm secure. God factored he knew me and put my name in the book of life and put my name in the book of life and put my name in the book of life before I'd done all the stupid sinful before I'd done all the stupid sinful before I'd done all the stupid sinful things.

things. things. So, it didn't come as a surprise to him. So, it didn't come as a surprise to him. So, it didn't come as a surprise to him. Amen. Amen. Amen. You mentioned things you wish you could You mentioned things you wish you could You mentioned things you wish you could tell Tim. Are there other things you tell Tim. Are there other things you tell Tim. Are there other things you >> Oh, lots of things. Every day. >> Oh, lots of things. Every day. >> Oh, lots of things. Every day. Uh there I mean, it's been almost 3 Uh there I mean, it's been almost 3 Uh there I mean, it's been almost 3 years, and I still when I read something years, and I still when I read something years, and I still when I read something or hear something, I think, or hear something, I think, or hear something, I think, you know, I want to call him to come in you know, I want to call him to come in you know, I want to call him to come in and and look at what I'm looking at or and and look at what I'm looking at or and and look at what I'm looking at or see this paragraph that I just read or see this paragraph that I just read or see this paragraph that I just read or something, and something, and something, and and I've taken to telling myself, "If he and I've taken to telling myself, "If he and I've taken to telling myself, "If he needs to know, Jesus would have told needs to know, Jesus would have told needs to know, Jesus would have told him, so it's not like he's going without him, so it's not like he's going without him, so it's not like he's going without this information that you wanted to this information that you wanted to this information that you wanted to [laughter] so kindly impart. [laughter] so kindly impart. [laughter] so kindly impart. He He might not need to know it from the He He might not need to know it from the He He might not need to know it from the viewpoint of eternity and glory. viewpoint of eternity and glory. viewpoint of eternity and glory. So, [laughter] don't worry about Tim So, [laughter] don't worry about Tim So, [laughter] don't worry about Tim didn't get to see." didn't get to see." didn't get to see." Yeah, he sees he sees uh Yeah, he sees he sees uh Yeah, he sees he sees uh now through a glass clearly, right? Or now through a glass clearly, right? Or now through a glass clearly, right? Or face to face, I should say. face to face, I should say. face to face, I should say. >> sure, right? >> sure, right? >> sure, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um Um Um the another part related in here uh in the another part related in here uh in the another part related in here uh in the book, uh Tim writes, "I've been the book, uh Tim writes, "I've been the book, uh Tim writes, "I've been unfortunate enough to marry one of my unfortunate enough to marry one of my unfortunate enough to marry one of my Nathans."

Nathans." Nathans." I wondered if you wanted to talk about I wondered if you wanted to talk about I wondered if you wanted to talk about what he meant by that. I did not what he meant by that. I did not what he meant by that. I did not know that he said that. I mean, I I know that he said that. I mean, I I know that he said that. I mean, I I thought I had heard every sermon that he thought I had heard every sermon that he thought I had heard every sermon that he did, but there were plenty of times I did, but there were plenty of times I did, but there were plenty of times I was in the hospital or at home with a was in the hospital or at home with a was in the hospital or at home with a sick kid or something like that, and I sick kid or something like that, and I sick kid or something like that, and I was surprised when I read that. was surprised when I read that. was surprised when I read that. Um Um Um I hope I was that Nathan for him, and I hope I was that Nathan for him, and I hope I was that Nathan for him, and I wish really a lot more people, Tim at I wish really a lot more people, Tim at I wish really a lot more people, Tim at the top of the list, had been Nathans the top of the list, had been Nathans the top of the list, had been Nathans for me. I mean, I used to go on vacation for me. I mean, I used to go on vacation for me. I mean, I used to go on vacation with my really good friends, and go to with my really good friends, and go to with my really good friends, and go to the beach or something, and I'd say, the beach or something, and I'd say, the beach or something, and I'd say, "Now, look, we're going to be together "Now, look, we're going to be together "Now, look, we're going to be together sort of sort of sort of forced together for a week. If you see forced together for a week. If you see forced together for a week. If you see something I'm doing in my marriage or in something I'm doing in my marriage or in something I'm doing in my marriage or in my child rearing my child rearing my child rearing that isn't exactly right or it's not that isn't exactly right or it's not that isn't exactly right or it's not useful or it's counterproductive, would useful or it's counterproductive, would useful or it's counterproductive, would you please tell me?" And nobody ever you please tell me?" And nobody ever you please tell me?" And nobody ever did. I don't know if they didn't believe did. I don't know if they didn't believe did. I don't know if they didn't believe I really wanted to hear it or they I really wanted to hear it or they I really wanted to hear it or they I mean, it's not possible that they I mean, it's not possible that they I mean, it's not possible that they couldn't see it, couldn't see it, couldn't see it, but but but I really wish that they had been more I really wish that they had been more I really wish that they had been more forthcoming in saying, "You know, I'm forthcoming in saying, "You know, I'm forthcoming in saying, "You know, I'm not sure that XYZ."

not sure that XYZ." not sure that XYZ." I wish that And this goes back to your I wish that And this goes back to your I wish that And this goes back to your question about how do do we have um question about how do do we have um question about how do do we have um churches and communions and fellowships churches and communions and fellowships churches and communions and fellowships where people really, where people really, where people really, as Tim used to call it, give each other as Tim used to call it, give each other as Tim used to call it, give each other hunting licenses hunting licenses hunting licenses to say, "I think you're making a mistake to say, "I think you're making a mistake to say, "I think you're making a mistake here. I think, you know, this is going here. I think, you know, this is going here. I think, you know, this is going to take you in a direction you don't to take you in a direction you don't to take you in a direction you don't want to go." Yeah. I mean, what what is want to go." Yeah. I mean, what what is want to go." Yeah. I mean, what what is it it it what do you think it would have helped what do you think it would have helped what do you think it would have helped you with to have more of those Nathans you with to have more of those Nathans you with to have more of those Nathans just being able to course correct or just being able to course correct or just being able to course correct or there's certain there's certain there's certain >> and my child rearing. >> and my child rearing. >> and my child rearing. >> [laughter] >> Oh, man. I did I did I have to say, I >> Oh, man. I did I did I have to say, I did talk in with your friend Louise here did talk in with your friend Louise here did talk in with your friend Louise here about one of those with child rearing on about one of those with child rearing on about one of those with child rearing on a vacation with the kids. a vacation with the kids. a vacation with the kids. And it came out of them giving a And it came out of them giving a And it came out of them giving a hilarious story about the kids fighting hilarious story about the kids fighting hilarious story about the kids fighting and things like that. And then you and and things like that. And then you and and things like that. And then you and Tim being in the front giving a lecture Tim being in the front giving a lecture Tim being in the front giving a lecture um about the gospel to the kids. And I um about the gospel to the kids. And I um about the gospel to the kids. And I remember Louise saying, "I just told remember Louise saying, "I just told remember Louise saying, "I just told them, you guys talk too much." You talk them, you guys talk too much." You talk them, you guys talk too much." You talk [laughter] too much to your kids.

[laughter] too much to your kids. [laughter] too much to your kids. That was true, and I wish she had That was true, and I wish she had That was true, and I wish she had extemporized on that a little further. extemporized on that a little further. extemporized on that a little further. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Because in retrospect, we did. We over >> Because in retrospect, we did. We over >> Because in retrospect, we did. We over explained, and explained, and explained, and my brother-in-law, um Jim Pickard, my brother-in-law, um Jim Pickard, my brother-in-law, um Jim Pickard, who I who I who I admire enormously, admire enormously, admire enormously, showed me when it was a little bit too showed me when it was a little bit too showed me when it was a little bit too late to really late to really late to really do much about it. The bad foundation had do much about it. The bad foundation had do much about it. The bad foundation had been laid. been laid. been laid. Um Um Um He was very calm, very quiet, and He was very calm, very quiet, and He was very calm, very quiet, and and he raised those kind of kids, my and he raised those kind of kids, my and he raised those kind of kids, my nieces and nieces and nieces and um my nephew. um my nephew. um my nephew. But we were all at um, Lake Erie one But we were all at um, Lake Erie one But we were all at um, Lake Erie one time and he was setting up a little time and he was setting up a little time and he was setting up a little plastic um, plastic um, plastic um, Wiffle ball game for the kids to play Wiffle ball game for the kids to play Wiffle ball game for the kids to play with. with. with. And one of my sons, I won't tell you And one of my sons, I won't tell you And one of my sons, I won't tell you which one, which one, which one, was um, had one of the the rackets and was um, had one of the the rackets and was um, had one of the the rackets and was whiffing it through the sand that was whiffing it through the sand that was whiffing it through the sand that he was planting the the net in.

he was planting the the net in. he was planting the the net in. And um, And um, And um, Tim said, uh, you really shouldn't be Tim said, uh, you really shouldn't be Tim said, uh, you really shouldn't be doing that because it's going to break doing that because it's going to break doing that because it's going to break that racket. It's not very expensive. It that racket. It's not very expensive. It that racket. It's not very expensive. It is going to break and then no one can is going to break and then no one can is going to break and then no one can use it. And this child used to used to use it. And this child used to used to use it. And this child used to used to our parenting style, which is you keep our parenting style, which is you keep our parenting style, which is you keep saying it in a louder voice and then you saying it in a louder voice and then you saying it in a louder voice and then you start saying, you know, there will be start saying, you know, there will be start saying, you know, there will be penalties and you escalate and they penalties and you escalate and they penalties and you escalate and they don't pay any attention until, you know, don't pay any attention until, you know, don't pay any attention until, you know, things are nuclear. things are nuclear. things are nuclear. He just kept doing it and um, so Jim, He just kept doing it and um, so Jim, He just kept doing it and um, so Jim, without saying a word, without saying, without saying a word, without saying, without saying a word, without saying, well, now you've done it and now you're well, now you've done it and now you're well, now you've done it and now you're going to take the consequences, he just going to take the consequences, he just going to take the consequences, he just went from putting up the net to rolling went from putting up the net to rolling went from putting up the net to rolling it back up, taking it apart, putting it it back up, taking it apart, putting it it back up, taking it apart, putting it in the trunk of his car and this son of in the trunk of his car and this son of in the trunk of his car and this son of mine mine mine realized what was happening about midway realized what was happening about midway realized what was happening about midway through the point and started saying, through the point and started saying, through the point and started saying, no, no, no, I stopped. I stopped. It's no, no, no, I stopped. I stopped. It's no, no, no, I stopped. I stopped. It's okay. You don't have to do that and then okay. You don't have to do that and then okay. You don't have to do that and then Jim was just saying, no, we'll we'll do Jim was just saying, no, we'll we'll do Jim was just saying, no, we'll we'll do it another day. Well, we can play with it another day. Well, we can play with it another day. Well, we can play with it another day. We'll do something else it another day. We'll do something else it another day. We'll do something else right now. Just said nothing and this right now. Just said nothing and this right now. Just said nothing and this child grew up in utter He didn't child grew up in utter He didn't child grew up in utter He didn't remember the incident, but he grew up in remember the incident, but he grew up in remember the incident, but he grew up in utter terror of his uncle utter terror of his uncle utter terror of his uncle Jim because Uncle Jim was Jim because Uncle Jim was Jim because Uncle Jim was was a an unknown was a an unknown was a an unknown um, adult in the sense that he didn't um, adult in the sense that he didn't um, adult in the sense that he didn't have a fix on what he was going to do.

have a fix on what he was going to do. have a fix on what he was going to do. He He just followed through. He didn't He He just followed through. He didn't He He just followed through. He didn't argue. He didn't try to persuade. He argue. He didn't try to persuade. He argue. He didn't try to persuade. He just, just, just, you know, there was consequences. I'll you know, there was consequences. I'll you know, there was consequences. I'll put it away now. put it away now. put it away now. I wish I had known that at the get-go. I wish I had known that at the get-go. I wish I had known that at the get-go. Oh. Oh. Oh. I mean, I mean, I mean, our lives are just simply full. I mean, our lives are just simply full. I mean, our lives are just simply full. I mean, of these regrets and especially I think of these regrets and especially I think of these regrets and especially I think as parents, it's unavoidable even if we as parents, it's unavoidable even if we as parents, it's unavoidable even if we imagine it's not and I think that leads imagine it's not and I think that leads imagine it's not and I think that leads back to the theme of the book of the back to the theme of the book of the back to the theme of the book of the hopefulness of the gospel. We're hopefulness of the gospel. We're hopefulness of the gospel. We're condemned in that. I mean, we're right. condemned in that. I mean, we're right. condemned in that. I mean, we're right. We do mess up. We we make all sorts of We do mess up. We we make all sorts of We do mess up. We we make all sorts of mistakes. We hurt the people that we mistakes. We hurt the people that we mistakes. We hurt the people that we love the most. And that's the beauty of love the most. And that's the beauty of love the most. And that's the beauty of the gospel though is that there is a the gospel though is that there is a the gospel though is that there is a provision, the forgiveness of sins provision, the forgiveness of sins provision, the forgiveness of sins and ultimately a resurrection to make and ultimately a resurrection to make and ultimately a resurrection to make all things new all things new all things new in the end. So, um, yeah, it's it's it's in the end. So, um, yeah, it's it's it's in the end. So, um, yeah, it's it's it's it's bitter cuz it it's bitter cuz it it's bitter cuz it you'll you'll be condemned. You have to you'll you'll be condemned. You have to you'll you'll be condemned. You have to admit you're a sinner, but it's sweet admit you're a sinner, but it's sweet admit you're a sinner, but it's sweet because there's hope on the other side. because there's hope on the other side. because there's hope on the other side. Hope for change and ultimately hope for Hope for change and ultimately hope for Hope for change and ultimately hope for redemption. Um, talking again with Kathy redemption. Um, talking again with Kathy redemption. Um, talking again with Kathy Keller here about what is wrong with the Keller here about what is wrong with the Keller here about what is wrong with the world? There you go.

world? There you go. world? There you go. Uh, a surprising hopeful answer to the Uh, a surprising hopeful answer to the Uh, a surprising hopeful answer to the question we cannot avoid. question we cannot avoid. question we cannot avoid. Um, Um, Um, I know Kathy, you know, I've talked I know Kathy, you know, I've talked I know Kathy, you know, I've talked about this in in some private venues, about this in in some private venues, about this in in some private venues, but and you've written about this as but and you've written about this as but and you've written about this as well. I'm wondering what are some of the well. I'm wondering what are some of the well. I'm wondering what are some of the most common ways you think Tim is most common ways you think Tim is most common ways you think Tim is misunderstood today? Well, there's a misunderstood today? Well, there's a misunderstood today? Well, there's a whole mythology that's grown up around whole mythology that's grown up around whole mythology that's grown up around Tim saying, oh, yes, he's winsome. He's Tim saying, oh, yes, he's winsome. He's Tim saying, oh, yes, he's winsome. He's nice, etc., but the world has changed nice, etc., but the world has changed nice, etc., but the world has changed and Tim's approach is just no longer and Tim's approach is just no longer and Tim's approach is just no longer valid anymore. We've got to fight fire valid anymore. We've got to fight fire valid anymore. We've got to fight fire with fire. We've got to, with fire. We've got to, with fire. We've got to, you know, you know, you know, to man up and, you know, to man up and, you know, to man up and, you know, no more Mr. Nice Guy. And I'm afraid I no more Mr. Nice Guy. And I'm afraid I no more Mr. Nice Guy. And I'm afraid I got got got fed up with that and wrote an article fed up with that and wrote an article fed up with that and wrote an article um, in the gos- in the Life in the um, in the gos- in the Life in the um, in the gos- in the Life in the Gospel Journal, which is Gospel Journal, which is Gospel Journal, which is easily found by going to easily found by going to easily found by going to gospelinlife.com gospelinlife.com gospelinlife.com uh, for the winter uh, for the winter uh, for the winter uh, quarterly. uh, quarterly. uh, quarterly. It's uh, entitled It's uh, entitled It's uh, entitled Major in the Majors and Major in the Majors and Major in the Majors and but get to everything.

but get to everything. but get to everything. So, Tim's So, Tim's So, Tim's The rea- part of the reason that people The rea- part of the reason that people The rea- part of the reason that people think that is they go through the Logos think that is they go through the Logos think that is they go through the Logos software or the sermons or whatever and software or the sermons or whatever and software or the sermons or whatever and they hear Tim, you know, preaching the they hear Tim, you know, preaching the they hear Tim, you know, preaching the gospel and, you know, he gospel and, you know, he gospel and, you know, he talks about wrath, he talks about hell, talks about wrath, he talks about hell, talks about wrath, he talks about hell, but nowhere near to the percentage that but nowhere near to the percentage that but nowhere near to the percentage that would have satisfied them and they think would have satisfied them and they think would have satisfied them and they think he was sidestepping the hot-button he was sidestepping the hot-button he was sidestepping the hot-button issues in order to issues in order to issues in order to um, uh, avoid being vilified in New York um, uh, avoid being vilified in New York um, uh, avoid being vilified in New York City. Well, the news is, folks, that New City. Well, the news is, folks, that New City. Well, the news is, folks, that New York City, when we got here in 1989, York City, when we got here in 1989, York City, when we got here in 1989, was not a nice place. It wasn't a place was not a nice place. It wasn't a place was not a nice place. It wasn't a place where Mr. Nice Guy survived. It was in where Mr. Nice Guy survived. It was in where Mr. Nice Guy survived. It was in the middle of the Jimmy Swaggart and the middle of the Jimmy Swaggart and the middle of the Jimmy Swaggart and Tammy Faye and Jim Baker scandals and to Tammy Faye and Jim Baker scandals and to Tammy Faye and Jim Baker scandals and to use the word evangelist was like death use the word evangelist was like death use the word evangelist was like death uh, in the article I mentioned that uh, in the article I mentioned that uh, in the article I mentioned that because Tim was a church planter in the because Tim was a church planter in the because Tim was a church planter in the PCA, you're technically known as an PCA, you're technically known as an PCA, you're technically known as an evangelist because that means you can evangelist because that means you can evangelist because that means you can admit and admit and admit and people to membership without having a people to membership without having a people to membership without having a board of elders. And when Alan heard board of elders. And when Alan heard board of elders. And when Alan heard that, he almost left the church because that, he almost left the church because that, he almost left the church because he didn't want anything to do with an he didn't want anything to do with an he didn't want anything to do with an evangelist.

evangelist. evangelist. Um, fortunately, he stuck around, but Um, fortunately, he stuck around, but Um, fortunately, he stuck around, but um, um, um, the thing that people don't know is that the thing that people don't know is that the thing that people don't know is that after every sermon for years, until he after every sermon for years, until he after every sermon for years, until he started preaching in multiple sites, started preaching in multiple sites, started preaching in multiple sites, um, Tim would have a Q&A after every um, Tim would have a Q&A after every um, Tim would have a Q&A after every service and invite people to stay and service and invite people to stay and service and invite people to stay and ask whatever questions they had that ask whatever questions they had that ask whatever questions they had that either arose from the um, sermon or that either arose from the um, sermon or that either arose from the um, sermon or that they just came with or whatever. they just came with or whatever. they just came with or whatever. And And And 100 to 200 people would stay after every 100 to 200 people would stay after every 100 to 200 people would stay after every service and service and service and just, you know, for different reasons. just, you know, for different reasons. just, you know, for different reasons. Some people had real honest questions. Some people had real honest questions. Some people had real honest questions. Other people just thought, oh, man, this Other people just thought, oh, man, this Other people just thought, oh, man, this is just too good of an opportunity to is just too good of an opportunity to is just too good of an opportunity to pass up. An evangelical Orthodox pass up. An evangelical Orthodox pass up. An evangelical Orthodox Christian standing in the middle of Christian standing in the middle of Christian standing in the middle of Manhattan saying, hit me with your best Manhattan saying, hit me with your best Manhattan saying, hit me with your best shot. And they did. They every single shot. And they did. They every single shot. And they did. They every single week there would be, you know, some week there would be, you know, some week there would be, you know, some hot-button issue and then, you know, the hot-button issue and then, you know, the hot-button issue and then, you know, the the foundation hot-button issues. the foundation hot-button issues. the foundation hot-button issues. Do you really believe that Jesus is the Do you really believe that Jesus is the Do you really believe that Jesus is the only way to get to God? Um, only way to get to God? Um, only way to get to God? Um, you know, do you really believe that you know, do you really believe that you know, do you really believe that people without Jesus are going to go to people without Jesus are going to go to people without Jesus are going to go to hell? And then there were all the hell? And then there were all the hell? And then there were all the subsidiary issues, but often Tim would subsidiary issues, but often Tim would subsidiary issues, but often Tim would say, say, say, do you think Jesus, in response to a do you think Jesus, in response to a do you think Jesus, in response to a question, he'd ask a question, do you question, he'd ask a question, do you question, he'd ask a question, do you think Jesus rose from the dead? And think Jesus rose from the dead? And think Jesus rose from the dead? And they'd kind of like, well, that's not they'd kind of like, well, that's not they'd kind of like, well, that's not the question I asked. And Tim would say, the question I asked. And Tim would say, the question I asked. And Tim would say, well, no, I you just because here's the well, no, I you just because here's the well, no, I you just because here's the thing.

thing. thing. If he did, then you have to re-examine If he did, then you have to re-examine If he did, then you have to re-examine everything in your life. But if he everything in your life. But if he everything in your life. But if he didn't, then I'm just spouting hot air didn't, then I'm just spouting hot air didn't, then I'm just spouting hot air and there's no reason for you to take and there's no reason for you to take and there's no reason for you to take seriously anything I say. It's just my seriously anything I say. It's just my seriously anything I say. It's just my opinion. So, you know, you got to figure opinion. So, you know, you got to figure opinion. So, you know, you got to figure out first whether Jesus is who he says out first whether Jesus is who he says out first whether Jesus is who he says he is and then come and ask that he is and then come and ask that he is and then come and ask that question because it makes a difference question because it makes a difference question because it makes a difference to the answer. But he would always to the answer. But he would always to the answer. But he would always answer these questions. He would never answer these questions. He would never answer these questions. He would never shy away from them shy away from them shy away from them um, no matter how hard it was. um, no matter how hard it was. um, no matter how hard it was. In fact, I'll tell you a side story In fact, I'll tell you a side story In fact, I'll tell you a side story about that. His brother Billy was a gay about that. His brother Billy was a gay about that. His brother Billy was a gay man who died of AIDS when he was 40 man who died of AIDS when he was 40 man who died of AIDS when he was 40 years old and his partner, Joaquin, we years old and his partner, Joaquin, we years old and his partner, Joaquin, we would always have dinner with them when would always have dinner with them when would always have dinner with them when we went through Baltimore on our way to we went through Baltimore on our way to we went through Baltimore on our way to the beach every summer. the beach every summer. the beach every summer. And Joaquin had no trouble with Tim And Joaquin had no trouble with Tim And Joaquin had no trouble with Tim being a Presbyterian minister, but then being a Presbyterian minister, but then being a Presbyterian minister, but then he realized he wasn't a United he realized he wasn't a United he realized he wasn't a United Presbyterian minister. He was the other Presbyterian minister. He was the other Presbyterian minister. He was the other kind. kind. kind. >> The other one, yeah. >> The other one, yeah. >> The other one, yeah. >> So, his his >> So, his his >> So, his his battle plan every time we had dinner was battle plan every time we had dinner was battle plan every time we had dinner was to come with this whole list of mic drop to come with this whole list of mic drop to come with this whole list of mic drop questions that he would lob at Tim like, questions that he would lob at Tim like, questions that he would lob at Tim like, I'm going to get you, Mr. You're not I'm going to get you, Mr. You're not I'm going to get you, Mr. You're not going to going to going to be able to answer this. And it was be able to answer this. And it was be able to answer this. And it was something that Tim had heard 500 times something that Tim had heard 500 times something that Tim had heard 500 times and, you know, was able to to answer and, you know, was able to to answer and, you know, was able to to answer gently and persuasively. It such just gently and persuasively. It such just gently and persuasively. It such just frustrated Joaquin so badly frustrated Joaquin so badly frustrated Joaquin so badly because he wanted so hard. He wanted so because he wanted so hard. He wanted so because he wanted so hard. He wanted so badly to just put Tim in a

badly to just put Tim in a badly to just put Tim in a place that he couldn't wiggle out of and place that he couldn't wiggle out of and place that he couldn't wiggle out of and Tim wasn't trying to wiggle out of Tim wasn't trying to wiggle out of Tim wasn't trying to wiggle out of anything. He just knew that anything. He just knew that anything. He just knew that the truth is the truth and the truth is the truth and the truth is the truth and when you say it, that's all there is to when you say it, that's all there is to when you say it, that's all there is to it. Are there any other misconceptions it. Are there any other misconceptions it. Are there any other misconceptions that come to mind? Uh. that come to mind? Uh. that come to mind? Uh. >> [sighs and gasps] Um, Um, Tim was a very shy person. Tim was a very shy person. Tim was a very shy person. And And And not many people would have ever figured not many people would have ever figured not many people would have ever figured that out. Yeah, I think um, that out. Yeah, I think um, that out. Yeah, I think um, I think part of that, what comes out I think part of that, what comes out I think part of that, what comes out there, is especially the people who knew there, is especially the people who knew there, is especially the people who knew him in high school and college and in him in high school and college and in him in high school and college and in seminary. seminary. seminary. That was a common common theme. Um, and That was a common common theme. Um, and That was a common common theme. Um, and a common theme of why he a common theme of why he a common theme of why he uh, overcame a good bit of that in ways uh, overcame a good bit of that in ways uh, overcame a good bit of that in ways that he had to in ministry was people that he had to in ministry was people that he had to in ministry was people crediting you crediting you crediting you >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> in his life to help him in those ways. >> in his life to help him in those ways. >> in his life to help him in those ways. >> No. No.

>> No. No. >> No. No. No, Tim's No, Tim's No, Tim's The person who helped him was The person who helped him was The person who helped him was the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit. The sacrifice of Jesus. I The sacrifice of Jesus. I The sacrifice of Jesus. I I did lots of administrative tasks and I did lots of administrative tasks and I did lots of administrative tasks and took a lot of, took a lot of, took a lot of, you know, I paid the car insurance and you know, I paid the car insurance and you know, I paid the car insurance and made sure it was inspected and made sure it was inspected and made sure it was inspected and um, put new tires on it and took care of um, put new tires on it and took care of um, put new tires on it and took care of disputes with the landlord, etc., but disputes with the landlord, etc., but disputes with the landlord, etc., but um, um, um, people persist in thinking that I had people persist in thinking that I had people persist in thinking that I had some hand in writing the sermons and I some hand in writing the sermons and I some hand in writing the sermons and I didn't even know what he was preaching didn't even know what he was preaching didn't even know what he was preaching on until I got the Sunday morning on until I got the Sunday morning on until I got the Sunday morning bulletin. bulletin. bulletin. So, that wasn't true. Well, I think I So, that wasn't true. Well, I think I So, that wasn't true. Well, I think I think everything I've ever heard from think everything I've ever heard from think everything I've ever heard from Tim say Tim say Tim say is God works through means and one of is God works through means and one of is God works through means and one of the if not consistently the primary the if not consistently the primary the if not consistently the primary means Tim would often credit was was his means Tim would often credit was was his means Tim would often credit was was his wife. wife. wife. So, anyway, I think that's So, anyway, I think that's So, anyway, I think that's >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I think that's uh that's true. Um >> I think that's uh that's true. Um >> I think that's uh that's true. Um speaking of just your your life speaking of just your your life speaking of just your your life together, together, together, um when I had a chance to be able to um when I had a chance to be able to um when I had a chance to be able to write about uh your ministry, my write about uh your ministry, my write about uh your ministry, my favorite chapter I think was about the favorite chapter I think was about the favorite chapter I think was about the Hopewell years, the 9 years there. Um Hopewell years, the 9 years there. Um Hopewell years, the 9 years there. Um and was just back there last week before and was just back there last week before and was just back there last week before we're recording this. Happened to be uh we're recording this. Happened to be uh we're recording this. Happened to be uh visiting our friend Matt Smethurst up in visiting our friend Matt Smethurst up in visiting our friend Matt Smethurst up in in Richmond and visiting some Civil War in Richmond and visiting some Civil War in Richmond and visiting some Civil War battlefields including um battlefields including um battlefields including um you know, right there in Petersburg near you know, right there in Petersburg near you know, right there in Petersburg near Hopewell. So, stopped by the church

Hopewell. So, stopped by the church Hopewell. So, stopped by the church um there and and uh thought about those um there and and uh thought about those um there and and uh thought about those those 9 years. Just wondered if there's those 9 years. Just wondered if there's those 9 years. Just wondered if there's anything else you wanted to share about anything else you wanted to share about anything else you wanted to share about those Hopewell years that shaped your those Hopewell years that shaped your those Hopewell years that shaped your your life and ministry together for the your life and ministry together for the your life and ministry together for the rest of your lives in New York and rest of your lives in New York and rest of your lives in New York and Philadelphia or just your family Philadelphia or just your family Philadelphia or just your family life as well. life as well. life as well. Oh, yeah, quite a bit. Uh the people Oh, yeah, quite a bit. Uh the people Oh, yeah, quite a bit. Uh the people the people loved us and they allowed him the people loved us and they allowed him the people loved us and they allowed him to find his feet as a preacher. to find his feet as a preacher. to find his feet as a preacher. Um he was always good in the pulpit Um he was always good in the pulpit Um he was always good in the pulpit starting at the very first sermon. starting at the very first sermon. starting at the very first sermon. In fact, he we were only supposed to be In fact, he we were only supposed to be In fact, he we were only supposed to be there for 3 months as an interim. there for 3 months as an interim. there for 3 months as an interim. And um And um And um about 2 months in, the search committee about 2 months in, the search committee about 2 months in, the search committee who was looking for a more seasoned who was looking for a more seasoned who was looking for a more seasoned pastor because they'd just gone through pastor because they'd just gone through pastor because they'd just gone through a church split based on the a church split based on the a church split based on the uh uh uh based on a scandal that had taken place based on a scandal that had taken place based on a scandal that had taken place between the former pastor and the former between the former pastor and the former between the former pastor and the former choir director. We won't even go into choir director. We won't even go into choir director. We won't even go into that. that. that. Um Um Um the search committee said, "Why are we the search committee said, "Why are we the search committee said, "Why are we looking for anywhere else? Let's just looking for anywhere else? Let's just looking for anywhere else? Let's just keep this one."

keep this one." keep this one." But um But um But um it was nothing like any of it was nothing like any of it was nothing like any of from our background. I mean, it was a from our background. I mean, it was a from our background. I mean, it was a blue-collar town. Everyone in the blue-collar town. Everyone in the blue-collar town. Everyone in the church, the highest education they had church, the highest education they had church, the highest education they had was eighth grade except for two school was eighth grade except for two school was eighth grade except for two school teachers who had gone to teachers' teachers who had gone to teachers' teachers who had gone to teachers' college. college. college. Um Um Um and at one point Skip Ryan made the and at one point Skip Ryan made the and at one point Skip Ryan made the remark that Tim that Hopewell allowed remark that Tim that Hopewell allowed remark that Tim that Hopewell allowed Tim to learn how to put the cookies on Tim to learn how to put the cookies on Tim to learn how to put the cookies on the lower shelf. the lower shelf. the lower shelf. Meaning how to make himself clear Meaning how to make himself clear Meaning how to make himself clear without using a lot of fancy obfuscating without using a lot of fancy obfuscating without using a lot of fancy obfuscating words. And I think that's really true. words. And I think that's really true. words. And I think that's really true. We were two over We were two over We were two over overeducated northerners. overeducated northerners. overeducated northerners. And And And you know, with you know, with you know, with small groups and InterVarsity etc. in small groups and InterVarsity etc. in small groups and InterVarsity etc. in our background, we came down to our background, we came down to our background, we came down to Hopewell. And the first thing you do is Hopewell. And the first thing you do is Hopewell. And the first thing you do is you start a small group program. Well, you start a small group program. Well, you start a small group program. Well, some of these people were illiterate. some of these people were illiterate. some of these people were illiterate. One of our elders was illiterate. When One of our elders was illiterate. When One of our elders was illiterate. When he had to read the scripture in the he had to read the scripture in the he had to read the scripture in the service, he got tapes and he memorized service, he got tapes and he memorized service, he got tapes and he memorized what he had to to read because he what he had to to read because he what he had to to read because he couldn't actually read.

couldn't actually read. couldn't actually read. Um Um Um and so that was kind of a non-starter. and so that was kind of a non-starter. and so that was kind of a non-starter. The small groups, you know, Bible study The small groups, you know, Bible study The small groups, you know, Bible study wasn't going to be one of the hallmarks wasn't going to be one of the hallmarks wasn't going to be one of the hallmarks of West Hopewell Presbyterian Church. of West Hopewell Presbyterian Church. of West Hopewell Presbyterian Church. But those people knew mercy, and that's But those people knew mercy, and that's But those people knew mercy, and that's where all of Tim's interest in mercy, where all of Tim's interest in mercy, where all of Tim's interest in mercy, his his his his Doctor of Ministry program was on his Doctor of Ministry program was on his Doctor of Ministry program was on mercy, his first two books were on mercy, his first two books were on mercy, his first two books were on mercy, Ministries of Mercy and How to mercy, Ministries of Mercy and How to mercy, Ministries of Mercy and How to Turn Your Diaconate Into a Mercy Army of Turn Your Diaconate Into a Mercy Army of Turn Your Diaconate Into a Mercy Army of Your Church. Your Church. Your Church. Um you you know, it was Um you you know, it was Um you you know, it was it was like watching um a scene out of it was like watching um a scene out of it was like watching um a scene out of the movie Witness with Harrison Ford. the movie Witness with Harrison Ford. the movie Witness with Harrison Ford. You know, if there was a an older widow You know, if there was a an older widow You know, if there was a an older widow in the church whose roof was leaking, in the church whose roof was leaking, in the church whose roof was leaking, come Saturday morning 8:00 a.m., there'd come Saturday morning 8:00 a.m., there'd come Saturday morning 8:00 a.m., there'd be 12 pickup trucks parked around her be 12 pickup trucks parked around her be 12 pickup trucks parked around her house, and by evening there'd be a new house, and by evening there'd be a new house, and by evening there'd be a new roof. roof. roof. And so, you know, the light bulb went on And so, you know, the light bulb went on And so, you know, the light bulb went on like the deacons are supposed to be the like the deacons are supposed to be the like the deacons are supposed to be the mercy wing of the church. And so, West mercy wing of the church. And so, West mercy wing of the church. And so, West Hopewell Church became known as the Hopewell Church became known as the Hopewell Church became known as the church church church that knew about mercy.

that knew about mercy. that knew about mercy. So, that was So, that was So, that was hugely hugely hugely um um um that was had a huge effect on that was had a huge effect on that was had a huge effect on uh Tim that you know, you don't word uh Tim that you know, you don't word uh Tim that you know, you don't word ministry and deed ministry are both part ministry and deed ministry are both part ministry and deed ministry are both part of what of what of what Jesus did. Jesus did. Jesus did. And some congregations you can emphasize And some congregations you can emphasize And some congregations you can emphasize one and some the other. one and some the other. one and some the other. I don't think if you went to I don't think if you went to I don't think if you went to Charlottesville where Skip had his Charlottesville where Skip had his Charlottesville where Skip had his church, you would find 12 guys who owned church, you would find 12 guys who owned church, you would find 12 guys who owned pickup trucks, much less pickup trucks, much less pickup trucks, much less you know, knew what to do about putting you know, knew what to do about putting you know, knew what to do about putting a new roof on. It was it was much more a new roof on. It was it was much more a new roof on. It was it was much more of a word ministry. Yeah, my of a word ministry. Yeah, my of a word ministry. Yeah, my my mentor when I was in in college there my mentor when I was in in college there my mentor when I was in in college there in Evanston, Illinois, much more like in Evanston, Illinois, much more like in Evanston, Illinois, much more like Charlottesville, Charlottesville, Charlottesville, um told me that when he was in rural um told me that when he was in rural um told me that when he was in rural Minnesota or just kind of exurban Minnesota or just kind of exurban Minnesota or just kind of exurban Minnesota, he said if you had a problem, Minnesota, he said if you had a problem, Minnesota, he said if you had a problem, people showed up with their pickup people showed up with their pickup people showed up with their pickup trucks to help. Said in Evanston, they trucks to help. Said in Evanston, they trucks to help. Said in Evanston, they show up with the car with a business show up with the car with a business show up with the car with a business card for their therapist. card for their therapist. card for their therapist. >> [laughter] >> The difference in the two places.

>> The difference in the two places. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, I think when I think about Hopewell, >> So, I think when I think about Hopewell, >> So, I think when I think about Hopewell, that mind that thought comes to mind. that mind that thought comes to mind. that mind that thought comes to mind. And I grew up in a place a lot more like And I grew up in a place a lot more like And I grew up in a place a lot more like Hopewell and and it Hopewell and and it Hopewell and and it it's a real thing and a real beautiful it's a real thing and a real beautiful it's a real thing and a real beautiful thing. thing. thing. Um and you mentioned Kathy to some of Um and you mentioned Kathy to some of Um and you mentioned Kathy to some of the ways that you did not collaborate the ways that you did not collaborate the ways that you did not collaborate with Tim on sermons, but when it came to with Tim on sermons, but when it came to with Tim on sermons, but when it came to books, you served as his stylist in the books, you served as his stylist in the books, you served as his stylist in the transition from an oral delivery to a transition from an oral delivery to a transition from an oral delivery to a written word. And I'm wondering if you written word. And I'm wondering if you written word. And I'm wondering if you go back over those books, do you have go back over those books, do you have go back over those books, do you have any favorites from Tim's books? any favorites from Tim's books? any favorites from Tim's books? >> Jonah. I wanted Jonah to be his first >> Jonah. I wanted Jonah to be his first >> Jonah. I wanted Jonah to be his first book. Okay. book. Okay. book. Okay. >> And right now I think it's the most >> And right now I think it's the most >> And right now I think it's the most un un un um um um misunderstood book. Everybody thinks, misunderstood book. Everybody thinks, misunderstood book. Everybody thinks, "Oh, yeah, the whale, you know, the "Oh, yeah, the whale, you know, the "Oh, yeah, the whale, you know, the fairy tale about the whale." fairy tale about the whale." fairy tale about the whale." That's not what Jonah is about. That's not what Jonah is about. That's not what Jonah is about. Um it the the fish gets a mention, but Um it the the fish gets a mention, but Um it the the fish gets a mention, but that's not the point of that's not the point of that's not the point of Jonah at all. And Jonah at all. And Jonah at all. And we tried. I mean, we we there's a woman we tried. I mean, we we there's a woman we tried. I mean, we we there's a woman in the congregation that paid someone to in the congregation that paid someone to in the congregation that paid someone to try and trans um try and trans um try and trans um translate the oral sermons into written.

translate the oral sermons into written. translate the oral sermons into written. Part of the problem was when Tim would Part of the problem was when Tim would Part of the problem was when Tim would preach, he would preach a sermon and preach, he would preach a sermon and preach, he would preach a sermon and then the next week he would recap what then the next week he would recap what then the next week he would recap what he'd preached the previous week, you he'd preached the previous week, you he'd preached the previous week, you know, like on a television series it's know, like on a television series it's know, like on a television series it's just there was the it's always the skip just there was the it's always the skip just there was the it's always the skip recap button. Well, you didn't get to recap button. Well, you didn't get to recap button. Well, you didn't get to skip it, you got to hear it. And but Tim skip it, you got to hear it. And but Tim skip it, you got to hear it. And but Tim had usually thought about it and he had usually thought about it and he had usually thought about it and he could put it better in the second sermon could put it better in the second sermon could put it better in the second sermon than he had actually said in the first than he had actually said in the first than he had actually said in the first sermon and condense it. But that meant, sermon and condense it. But that meant, sermon and condense it. But that meant, "Well, what do I do? Do I put in the "Well, what do I do? Do I put in the "Well, what do I do? Do I put in the second chapter? Do I put 50% of what was second chapter? Do I put 50% of what was second chapter? Do I put 50% of what was in the first chapter or do I go back to in the first chapter or do I go back to in the first chapter or do I go back to the first chapter and alter the first the first chapter and alter the first the first chapter and alter the first chapter?" Anyway, it went through chapter?" Anyway, it went through chapter?" Anyway, it went through a couple of different iterations. One of a couple of different iterations. One of a couple of different iterations. One of them was me trying to turn it into them was me trying to turn it into them was me trying to turn it into um a readable book and nobody got um a readable book and nobody got um a readable book and nobody got anywhere. So, he moved on and did he anywhere. So, he moved on and did he anywhere. So, he moved on and did he wasn't actually worried about it wasn't actually worried about it wasn't actually worried about it himself. He was thinking about other himself. He was thinking about other himself. He was thinking about other things at the time, not about having a things at the time, not about having a things at the time, not about having a book published. But when he did uh book published. But when he did uh book published. But when he did uh Reason for God, it did all these other Reason for God, it did all these other Reason for God, it did all these other things, he finally got around to Jonah things, he finally got around to Jonah things, he finally got around to Jonah and people were people at Penguin were a and people were people at Penguin were a and people were people at Penguin were a little little little um um um they didn't really encourage it. They they didn't really encourage it. They they didn't really encourage it. They didn't think it would be a big seller didn't think it would be a big seller didn't think it would be a big seller and it wasn't because everybody thought, and it wasn't because everybody thought, and it wasn't because everybody thought, "Okay, I I'm I I get the story, you "Okay, I I'm I I get the story, you "Okay, I I'm I I get the story, you know, big fish know, big fish know, big fish etc." And it's not about that at all.

etc." And it's not about that at all. etc." And it's not about that at all. It's about nationalism It's about nationalism It's about nationalism racism and racism and racism and um um um enemies. Gospel to the enemies. enemies. Gospel to the enemies. enemies. Gospel to the enemies. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. And it ended up being a very timely And it ended up being a very timely And it ended up being a very timely book, 2018, Prodigal Prophet. book, 2018, Prodigal Prophet. book, 2018, Prodigal Prophet. Ended up being timely. Yep. Yeah. Ended up being timely. Yep. Yeah. Ended up being timely. Yep. Yeah. Um Um Um speaking speaking speaking I mean, I love to answer that question I mean, I love to answer that question I mean, I love to answer that question myself because there's so many different myself because there's so many different myself because there's so many different ways to be able to go and so many ways to be able to go and so many ways to be able to go and so many different kinds of books and so many different kinds of books and so many different kinds of books and so many different approaches and such a wide different approaches and such a wide different approaches and such a wide variety of topical or or exegetical, variety of topical or or exegetical, variety of topical or or exegetical, different things like that, or different things like that, or different things like that, or apologetic and even more philosophical apologetic and even more philosophical apologetic and even more philosophical in some ways or practical with with in some ways or practical with with in some ways or practical with with Center Church. Um but I'm wondering, are Center Church. Um but I'm wondering, are Center Church. Um but I'm wondering, are there any books that you wish Tim could there any books that you wish Tim could there any books that you wish Tim could have could have lived to write? Well, he have could have lived to write? Well, he have could have lived to write? Well, he had on had on had on his way to approach writing a book is his way to approach writing a book is his way to approach writing a book is first of all first of all first of all what what what whatever interested him that he ran whatever interested him that he ran whatever interested him that he ran across in uh magazine or a newspaper across in uh magazine or a newspaper across in uh magazine or a newspaper article or article or article or um um um in a book, he would in a book, he would in a book, he would keep a file on that subject. So, there keep a file on that subject. So, there keep a file on that subject. So, there there were always I don't know, 20 or 30 there were always I don't know, 20 or 30 there were always I don't know, 20 or 30 file folders going so that if he file folders going so that if he file folders going so that if he felt moved to write a book on that felt moved to write a book on that felt moved to write a book on that subject, he would have those things to subject, he would have those things to subject, he would have those things to draw quotes from.

draw quotes from. draw quotes from. But when he died, on top of the dresser But when he died, on top of the dresser But when he died, on top of the dresser in um in um in um the guest bedroom, there were the guest bedroom, there were the guest bedroom, there were seven, maybe eight piles of books on seven, maybe eight piles of books on seven, maybe eight piles of books on different subjects. different subjects. different subjects. Uh stacks of books, maybe Uh stacks of books, maybe Uh stacks of books, maybe eight, 10 books high eight, 10 books high eight, 10 books high of things that he topics that he was of things that he topics that he was of things that he topics that he was going to turn into a book. He had a a going to turn into a book. He had a a going to turn into a book. He had a a list of 20 that he was list of 20 that he was list of 20 that he was hoping to get to, but he had hoping to get to, but he had hoping to get to, but he had um the front runners in the the um the front runners in the the um the front runners in the the beginning of a landing pattern beginning of a landing pattern beginning of a landing pattern was about eight or nine books. was about eight or nine books. was about eight or nine books. And I didn't I haven't moved those And I didn't I haven't moved those And I didn't I haven't moved those stacks. Um I think the stacks. Um I think the stacks. Um I think the the librarian who's trying to catalog the librarian who's trying to catalog the librarian who's trying to catalog Tim's library finally did take them off Tim's library finally did take them off Tim's library finally did take them off and start putting them in categories, and start putting them in categories, and start putting them in categories, but I just left the stacks sit there cuz but I just left the stacks sit there cuz but I just left the stacks sit there cuz I didn't want to take them apart. Yeah. I didn't want to take them apart. Yeah. I didn't want to take them apart. Yeah. I wasn't going to write the book either, I wasn't going to write the book either, I wasn't going to write the book either, but but but >> [laughter] >> Any any of those that were topics that >> Any any of those that were topics that came to mind that came to mind that came to mind that >> Oh, I don't even know what the topics >> Oh, I don't even know what the topics >> Oh, I don't even know what the topics were. They were they were were. They were they were were. They were they were probably deducible. Could probably have probably deducible. Could probably have probably deducible. Could probably have deduced deduced deduced maybe one direction. I mean, he had maybe one direction. I mean, he had maybe one direction. I mean, he had one stack that had John Owen books, one stack that had John Owen books, one stack that had John Owen books, Mortification of Sin, and several other Mortification of Sin, and several other Mortification of Sin, and several other of his titles.

of his titles. of his titles. So, that one was probably So, that one was probably So, that one was probably on how to deal with sin in your life. on how to deal with sin in your life. on how to deal with sin in your life. But, I mean, they didn't have like But, I mean, they didn't have like But, I mean, they didn't have like labels. This is the book on this. This labels. This is the book on this. This labels. This is the book on this. This is the book on that. Going to be able to is the book on that. Going to be able to is the book on that. Going to be able to develop some of the transition from develop some of the transition from develop some of the transition from idolatry being one of the primary ways idolatry being one of the primary ways idolatry being one of the primary ways that we talk about sin to I the pursuit that we talk about sin to I the pursuit that we talk about sin to I the pursuit of identity being one of the primary of identity being one of the primary of identity being one of the primary ways that we talk, we converse in our ways that we talk, we converse in our ways that we talk, we converse in our culture, and the way it goes wrong. culture, and the way it goes wrong. culture, and the way it goes wrong. That would have been one that I would That would have been one that I would That would have been one that I would have loved to hear more from him on. No, have loved to hear more from him on. No, have loved to hear more from him on. No, I think he was planning on that, I think he was planning on that, I think he was planning on that, actually. Um actually. Um actually. Um he told Francis Collins when we were he told Francis Collins when we were he told Francis Collins when we were down at the NIH at this the last time. down at the NIH at this the last time. down at the NIH at this the last time. Uh Francis wanted to co-author a book Uh Francis wanted to co-author a book Uh Francis wanted to co-author a book with him, and he said, "Well, Francis, with him, and he said, "Well, Francis, with him, and he said, "Well, Francis, I'm going to work on a book called I'm going to work on a book called I'm going to work on a book called uh Identity Received or Achieved." There uh Identity Received or Achieved." There uh Identity Received or Achieved." There you go. Yeah. And um you go. Yeah. And um you go. Yeah. And um he had been preaching on that for a he had been preaching on that for a he had been preaching on that for a while. He'd done while. He'd done while. He'd done the lectures over in Oxford. He'd been the lectures over in Oxford. He'd been the lectures over in Oxford. He'd been invited by OICU to come over, and he had invited by OICU to come over, and he had invited by OICU to come over, and he had preached on that for a couple of years, preached on that for a couple of years, preached on that for a couple of years, and and and done sermons on it. But, I mean, that done sermons on it. But, I mean, that done sermons on it. But, I mean, that was was was that was probably if if I had to name a that was probably if if I had to name a that was probably if if I had to name a book that was likely to be the first one book that was likely to be the first one book that was likely to be the first one that he worked on had he recovered, that that he worked on had he recovered, that that he worked on had he recovered, that would probably have been it. Yeah.

would probably have been it. Yeah. would probably have been it. Yeah. Well, we've done our best to take some Well, we've done our best to take some Well, we've done our best to take some of those conversations that we had with of those conversations that we had with of those conversations that we had with Tim at the Keller Center turn into our Tim at the Keller Center turn into our Tim at the Keller Center turn into our Making Sense of Us curriculum, which is Making Sense of Us curriculum, which is Making Sense of Us curriculum, which is building on those cultural narratives. building on those cultural narratives. building on those cultural narratives. And I know And I know And I know Michael and Tim have a book coming out Michael and Tim have a book coming out Michael and Tim have a book coming out later this year that's on some of those later this year that's on some of those later this year that's on some of those same themes on cultural narratives, and same themes on cultural narratives, and same themes on cultural narratives, and no doubt identity is part of that as no doubt identity is part of that as no doubt identity is part of that as well. So, ways that we can try to help well. So, ways that we can try to help well. So, ways that we can try to help carry on a little bit of that work. carry on a little bit of that work. carry on a little bit of that work. Um well, Kathy, this has been a delight Um well, Kathy, this has been a delight Um well, Kathy, this has been a delight to be able to talk. Thanks for sharing, to be able to talk. Thanks for sharing, to be able to talk. Thanks for sharing, and thanks for your work on on this and thanks for your work on on this and thanks for your work on on this book, What Is Wrong with the World? The book, What Is Wrong with the World? The book, What Is Wrong with the World? The Surprising Hopefully Answer to the Surprising Hopefully Answer to the Surprising Hopefully Answer to the Question We Cannot Avoid New From New Question We Cannot Avoid New From New Question We Cannot Avoid New From New From Zondervan. Again, [music] Kathy, From Zondervan. Again, [music] Kathy, From Zondervan. Again, [music] Kathy, just appreciate you, love you, and just just appreciate you, love you, and just just appreciate you, love you, and just grateful for the chance to talk. Thank grateful for the chance to talk. Thank grateful for the chance to talk. Thank you very much, Colin. you very much, Colin. you very much, Colin. >> [music] >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews, and Gospel Bound. For more interviews, and Gospel Bound. For more interviews, and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. to tgc.org/gospelbound. to tgc.org/gospelbound. [music] [music] [music] Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound [music] gospel, we abound [music] gospel, we abound [music] in hope.