Why We Should Recover Cultural Apologetics

But it seems that what Montaigne was But it seems that what Montaigne was calling for is a kind of don't really calling for is a kind of don't really calling for is a kind of don't really think about death. Don't really think think about death. Don't really think think about death. Don't really think about this still live your life. And he about this still live your life. And he about this still live your life. And he says we're not that kind of creature and says we're not that kind of creature and says we're not that kind of creature and we'll grow more and more restless when we'll grow more and more restless when we'll grow more and more restless when we try to do that. And I and I think um we try to do that. And I and I think um we try to do that. And I and I think um that's bearing out in many ways kind of that's bearing out in many ways kind of that's bearing out in many ways kind of in today's culture where people go from in today's culture where people go from in today's culture where people go from kind of streaming to very quickly kind of streaming to very quickly kind of streaming to very quickly protesting to finding their gods and protesting to finding their gods and protesting to finding their gods and religion and politics and other things. For many, apologetics is associated with For many, apologetics is associated with arguments over rational philosophical arguments over rational philosophical arguments over rational philosophical proofs. It's a matter of the head proofs. It's a matter of the head proofs. It's a matter of the head instead of the heart. Deate debate over instead of the heart. Deate debate over instead of the heart. Deate debate over facts instead of feelings. But no matter facts instead of feelings. But no matter facts instead of feelings. But no matter what kind of apologetics you practice, what kind of apologetics you practice, what kind of apologetics you practice, you're arguing according to a certain you're arguing according to a certain you're arguing according to a certain set of rules in a particular language set of rules in a particular language set of rules in a particular language attuned to what you expect will resonate attuned to what you expect will resonate attuned to what you expect will resonate in your time and your place. In other in your time and your place. In other in your time and your place. In other words, it's always cultural. It's never words, it's always cultural. It's never words, it's always cultural. It's never purely timeless and it's never purely purely timeless and it's never purely purely timeless and it's never purely rational.

rational. rational. We need to recover apologetics as a We need to recover apologetics as a We need to recover apologetics as a matter of the head or the heart and matter of the head or the heart and matter of the head or the heart and hands as well as the head. We need to hands as well as the head. We need to hands as well as the head. We need to recover apologetics as a project for the recover apologetics as a project for the recover apologetics as a project for the whole church and not just for those who whole church and not just for those who whole church and not just for those who enjoy arguing enjoy arguing enjoy arguing what we call cultural apologetics. It's what we call cultural apologetics. It's what we call cultural apologetics. It's not a new academic discipline. It's a not a new academic discipline. It's a not a new academic discipline. It's a means to reconnect the church to the means to reconnect the church to the means to reconnect the church to the best biblical and historical resources best biblical and historical resources best biblical and historical resources for presenting and defending the faith for presenting and defending the faith for presenting and defending the faith once for all delivered to the saints in once for all delivered to the saints in once for all delivered to the saints in Jude 3. Jude 3. Jude 3. That is the vision behind a new book, That is the vision behind a new book, That is the vision behind a new book, The Gospel After Christendom, an The Gospel After Christendom, an The Gospel After Christendom, an introduction to cultural apologetics, introduction to cultural apologetics, introduction to cultural apologetics, which I edited for Zunderan reflective which I edited for Zunderan reflective which I edited for Zunderan reflective and the Keller Center for Cultural and the Keller Center for Cultural and the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. I'm joined by two of our Apologetics. I'm joined by two of our Apologetics. I'm joined by two of our contributors, both fellows for the contributors, both fellows for the contributors, both fellows for the Keller Center, Josh said. Billy Graham, Keller Center, Josh said. Billy Graham, Keller Center, Josh said. Billy Graham, chair for evangelism cultural engagement chair for evangelism cultural engagement chair for evangelism cultural engagement here at Bon Divinity School in here at Bon Divinity School in here at Bon Divinity School in Birmingham, Alabama. Visiting us this Birmingham, Alabama. Visiting us this Birmingham, Alabama. Visiting us this week at Bon and my church, Redeemer week at Bon and my church, Redeemer week at Bon and my church, Redeemer Community Church, is Chris Watkin, Community Church, is Chris Watkin, Community Church, is Chris Watkin, associate professor of French and associate professor of French and associate professor of French and franophhone studies at me University, franophhone studies at me University, franophhone studies at me University, Melbourne, Australia, and honored to Melbourne, Australia, and honored to Melbourne, Australia, and honored to have both of them joining us for this have both of them joining us for this have both of them joining us for this special episode of Gospelbound recorded special episode of Gospelbound recorded special episode of Gospelbound recorded before a live Bon audience. All right, before a live Bon audience. All right, before a live Bon audience. All right, Chris, let's start with you. You write Chris, let's start with you. You write Chris, let's start with you. You write in the Gospel After Christendom about in the Gospel After Christendom about in the Gospel After Christendom about the biblical vision for cultural the biblical vision for cultural the biblical vision for cultural apologetics. Uh, I think when you're apologetics. Uh, I think when you're apologetics. Uh, I think when you're talking about this topic, almost talking about this topic, almost talking about this topic, almost everybody goes immediately to Acts 17.

everybody goes immediately to Acts 17. everybody goes immediately to Acts 17. Paul at Mars Hill. Um, any other Paul at Mars Hill. Um, any other Paul at Mars Hill. Um, any other examples? What else comes to mind? examples? What else comes to mind? examples? What else comes to mind? >> I think the Bible is full, isn't it, of >> I think the Bible is full, isn't it, of >> I think the Bible is full, isn't it, of people seeking to commend people seeking to commend people seeking to commend the timeless gospel to a particular the timeless gospel to a particular the timeless gospel to a particular culture. And in a sense, there's nothing culture. And in a sense, there's nothing culture. And in a sense, there's nothing but that in the Bible. like you could but that in the Bible. like you could but that in the Bible. like you could drop down at any point in the Bible and drop down at any point in the Bible and drop down at any point in the Bible and see how the unchanging God and his his see how the unchanging God and his his see how the unchanging God and his his way of salvation is is being explained way of salvation is is being explained way of salvation is is being explained within a cultural context. So in a sense within a cultural context. So in a sense within a cultural context. So in a sense that the whole Bible is the example. Um that the whole Bible is the example. Um that the whole Bible is the example. Um an an interesting juosition to Acts 17 an an interesting juosition to Acts 17 an an interesting juosition to Acts 17 could be Acts 14. Do you remember when could be Acts 14. Do you remember when could be Acts 14. Do you remember when Paul is in Lististra in a very rural Paul is in Lististra in a very rural Paul is in Lististra in a very rural setting and there he doesn't quote Greek setting and there he doesn't quote Greek setting and there he doesn't quote Greek poets does he? But he's talking about poets does he? But he's talking about poets does he? But he's talking about the the rain. Who sent that? That was the the rain. Who sent that? That was the the rain. Who sent that? That was God. You know, the things that are God. You know, the things that are God. You know, the things that are immediate to you in in your cultural immediate to you in in your cultural immediate to you in in your cultural context, that's God who did that. And in context, that's God who did that. And in context, that's God who did that. And in a sense, it's exactly the same message a sense, it's exactly the same message a sense, it's exactly the same message as Acts 17, isn't it? He appointed the as Acts 17, isn't it? He appointed the as Acts 17, isn't it? He appointed the times and places. He's in charge. Uh but times and places. He's in charge. Uh but times and places. He's in charge. Uh but it's presented in a way that helps the it's presented in a way that helps the it's presented in a way that helps the people in Listster and Derby to see people in Listster and Derby to see people in Listster and Derby to see that, oh, he's my God. He's right here that, oh, he's my God. He's right here that, oh, he's my God. He's right here in the midst of my cultural context. And in the midst of my cultural context. And in the midst of my cultural context. And what you said at the beginning, I think, what you said at the beginning, I think, what you said at the beginning, I think, Colin, is incredibly important. You said Colin, is incredibly important. You said Colin, is incredibly important. You said it's not purely timeless. And the key it's not purely timeless. And the key it's not purely timeless. And the key word there is purely, isn't it? Because word there is purely, isn't it? Because word there is purely, isn't it? Because it is timeless. Paul's gospel is our it is timeless. Paul's gospel is our it is timeless. Paul's gospel is our gospel. David's gospel, Abraham's gospel

gospel. David's gospel, Abraham's gospel gospel. David's gospel, Abraham's gospel is our gospel. Um, it is unchanging. is our gospel. Um, it is unchanging. is our gospel. Um, it is unchanging. And yet, as that gospel meets each And yet, as that gospel meets each And yet, as that gospel meets each cultural context, it takes a different cultural context, it takes a different cultural context, it takes a different shape. It doesn't change. is still the shape. It doesn't change. is still the shape. It doesn't change. is still the same message of salvation, but it helps same message of salvation, but it helps same message of salvation, but it helps different groups of people to see who different groups of people to see who different groups of people to see who Jesus is uh differently. Jesus is uh differently. Jesus is uh differently. Think of one Corinthians 1. What does Think of one Corinthians 1. What does Think of one Corinthians 1. What does Paul do with the Greek desire for wisdom Paul do with the Greek desire for wisdom Paul do with the Greek desire for wisdom uh and the the Jewish desire for uh and the the Jewish desire for uh and the the Jewish desire for miraculous signs? Uh he's meeting each miraculous signs? Uh he's meeting each miraculous signs? Uh he's meeting each of those cultures where it's at. He of those cultures where it's at. He of those cultures where it's at. He doesn't go to a Jewish context and say, doesn't go to a Jewish context and say, doesn't go to a Jewish context and say, "Let me talk about wisdom." Doesn't go "Let me talk about wisdom." Doesn't go "Let me talk about wisdom." Doesn't go to a Greek context and say, "Let me talk to a Greek context and say, "Let me talk to a Greek context and say, "Let me talk about miraculous signs." is finding about miraculous signs." is finding about miraculous signs." is finding something within the culture that the something within the culture that the something within the culture that the gospel both subverts the foolishness of gospel both subverts the foolishness of gospel both subverts the foolishness of God. Um now God has made foolish the God. Um now God has made foolish the God. Um now God has made foolish the wisdom of the world and also fulfills. wisdom of the world and also fulfills. wisdom of the world and also fulfills. The foolishness of God is wiser than The foolishness of God is wiser than The foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom. And it's the same message human wisdom. And it's the same message human wisdom. And it's the same message of the cross. It's the same word of the of the cross. It's the same word of the of the cross. It's the same word of the cross in one Corinthians 1, but it's cross in one Corinthians 1, but it's cross in one Corinthians 1, but it's hitting hitting hitting Jews and Greeks differently because of Jews and Greeks differently because of Jews and Greeks differently because of their different cultures. That that's their different cultures. That that's their different cultures. That that's all cultural apologetics is.

all cultural apologetics is. all cultural apologetics is. >> Now Josh, >> Now Josh, >> Now Josh, this this book covers a lot of different this this book covers a lot of different this this book covers a lot of different topics. Your chapter is on retrieval. I topics. Your chapter is on retrieval. I topics. Your chapter is on retrieval. I think that's especially suitable for think that's especially suitable for think that's especially suitable for here at BON where we focus a lot on on here at BON where we focus a lot on on here at BON where we focus a lot on on history and doctrine. But what is it in history and doctrine. But what is it in history and doctrine. But what is it in apologetics? You also have a long apologetics? You also have a long apologetics? You also have a long academic career of writing about the academic career of writing about the academic career of writing about the discipline of apologetics, tracing discipline of apologetics, tracing discipline of apologetics, tracing different apologists, tracing them different apologists, tracing them different apologists, tracing them through history. What is it that we are through history. What is it that we are through history. What is it that we are trying to recover in apologetics which trying to recover in apologetics which trying to recover in apologetics which maybe implies is something been lost maybe implies is something been lost maybe implies is something been lost >> perhaps or what are we trying to >> perhaps or what are we trying to >> perhaps or what are we trying to recover? recover? recover? Yeah, I the way that I was originally Yeah, I the way that I was originally Yeah, I the way that I was originally exposed to apologetics was kind of exposed to apologetics was kind of exposed to apologetics was kind of here's a series of silver bullet silver here's a series of silver bullet silver here's a series of silver bullet silver bullet arguments you can use kind of any bullet arguments you can use kind of any bullet arguments you can use kind of any opportunity any occasion and you just opportunity any occasion and you just opportunity any occasion and you just pull out your b bullets and you start pull out your b bullets and you start pull out your b bullets and you start firing and and what you actually see firing and and what you actually see firing and and what you actually see when you study history is I think the when you study history is I think the when you study history is I think the best apologists are very aware of their best apologists are very aware of their best apologists are very aware of their context they're very aware of who you're context they're very aware of who you're context they're very aware of who you're they're talking to. And so I one of the they're talking to. And so I one of the they're talking to. And so I one of the one of the things I'm trying to do in one of the things I'm trying to do in one of the things I'm trying to do in that chapter is I I kind of have this that chapter is I I kind of have this that chapter is I I kind of have this love, if you've taken me, you know this love, if you've taken me, you know this love, if you've taken me, you know this probably. I have this lovehate probably. I have this lovehate probably. I have this lovehate relationship with the word cultural relationship with the word cultural relationship with the word cultural apologetics.

apologetics. apologetics. >> And and sometimes I'll get on my hobby >> And and sometimes I'll get on my hobby >> And and sometimes I'll get on my hobby horse and start talking about that. But horse and start talking about that. But horse and start talking about that. But one of the things that I'm I'm concerned one of the things that I'm I'm concerned one of the things that I'm I'm concerned about is that cultural apologetics can about is that cultural apologetics can about is that cultural apologetics can be seen as something new, something be seen as something new, something be seen as something new, something that, you know, Colin and Tim came up that, you know, Colin and Tim came up that, you know, Colin and Tim came up with. you know, scheming in their office with. you know, scheming in their office with. you know, scheming in their office in New York, in Tim's office, like, oh, in New York, in Tim's office, like, oh, in New York, in Tim's office, like, oh, okay, let's come up with this new thing. okay, let's come up with this new thing. okay, let's come up with this new thing. And and what I'm trying to show in the And and what I'm trying to show in the And and what I'm trying to show in the chapter is actually chapter is actually chapter is actually maybe that's a new that's a relatively maybe that's a new that's a relatively maybe that's a new that's a relatively new word, but this idea that the kind of new word, but this idea that the kind of new word, but this idea that the kind of we need to study how people think. We we need to study how people think. We we need to study how people think. We need to study the idols that they're need to study the idols that they're need to study the idols that they're worshiping. We need to get deeper to see worshiping. We need to get deeper to see worshiping. We need to get deeper to see what are the whether whether what are what are the whether whether what are what are the whether whether what are the desires, the desires, the desires, what are their greatest fears and learn what are their greatest fears and learn what are their greatest fears and learn how to speak to that. Well, once you how to speak to that. Well, once you how to speak to that. Well, once you define apologetics in that way and say define apologetics in that way and say define apologetics in that way and say that's going to look differently in that's going to look differently in that's going to look differently in different context and then you go back different context and then you go back different context and then you go back and you kind of start looking at church and you kind of start looking at church and you kind of start looking at church history, you begin seeing this all over history, you begin seeing this all over history, you begin seeing this all over the place. And so I'm limited on time in the place. And so I'm limited on time in the place. And so I'm limited on time in that chapter, but I started with that chapter, but I started with that chapter, but I started with Augustine in City of God and um and you Augustine in City of God and um and you Augustine in City of God and um and you see him very much doing that res see him very much doing that res see him very much doing that res responding responding responding responding to the fall of Rome where responding to the fall of Rome where responding to the fall of Rome where people are going it it is an existential people are going it it is an existential people are going it it is an existential and theological crisis for the church and theological crisis for the church and theological crisis for the church and he's responding to that particular and he's responding to that particular and he's responding to that particular incident. But what he goes into is incident. But what he goes into is incident. But what he goes into is actually and this is quite interesting.

actually and this is quite interesting. actually and this is quite interesting. This is part of what we're retrieving. This is part of what we're retrieving. This is part of what we're retrieving. It's it's actually what we might call It's it's actually what we might call It's it's actually what we might call apologetics for the church as well apologetics for the church as well apologetics for the church as well because he's recognizing that people are because he's recognizing that people are because he's recognizing that people are starting to waver in their faith. People starting to waver in their faith. People starting to waver in their faith. People are starting to doubt. And so he's are starting to doubt. And so he's are starting to doubt. And so he's addressing the questions they're asking. addressing the questions they're asking. addressing the questions they're asking. But in order to do that, he has to go But in order to do that, he has to go But in order to do that, he has to go deeper underneath the kind of currents deeper underneath the kind of currents deeper underneath the kind of currents of Roman culture to show the problems to of Roman culture to show the problems to of Roman culture to show the problems to show the problems and their assumptions. show the problems and their assumptions. show the problems and their assumptions. And so what you what we what we end up And so what you what we what we end up And so what you what we what we end up here is retrieving both both a kind of here is retrieving both both a kind of here is retrieving both both a kind of awareness of the situation that's going awareness of the situation that's going awareness of the situation that's going on. Also retrieving the kind of pastoral on. Also retrieving the kind of pastoral on. Also retrieving the kind of pastoral spirit that you see in Augustine or even spirit that you see in Augustine or even spirit that you see in Augustine or even even in certain ways in Pascal, that's even in certain ways in Pascal, that's even in certain ways in Pascal, that's the other the other figure I'm looking the other the other figure I'm looking the other the other figure I'm looking at in in Lewis. But but also um also in at in in Lewis. But but also um also in at in in Lewis. But but also um also in that kind of pastoral spirit, what we that kind of pastoral spirit, what we that kind of pastoral spirit, what we would call a biblical anthropology or a would call a biblical anthropology or a would call a biblical anthropology or a a holistic anthropology where and and a holistic anthropology where and and a holistic anthropology where and and Collins already alluded to this, but not Collins already alluded to this, but not Collins already alluded to this, but not just simply rational arguments. Yes, just simply rational arguments. Yes, just simply rational arguments. Yes, arguments, but arguments that have, as arguments, but arguments that have, as arguments, but arguments that have, as one scholar says, actually has enough one scholar says, actually has enough one scholar says, actually has enough mass to move people. An argument can be mass to move people. An argument can be mass to move people. An argument can be coherent, but it doesn't get at coherent, but it doesn't get at coherent, but it doesn't get at someone's kind of um you might you might someone's kind of um you might you might someone's kind of um you might you might give arguments, but it doesn't actually give arguments, but it doesn't actually give arguments, but it doesn't actually get at the kind of existential everyday get at the kind of existential everyday get at the kind of existential everyday life meaning and purpose many times life meaning and purpose many times life meaning and purpose many times today. Um and and we can talk about some today. Um and and we can talk about some today. Um and and we can talk about some of those other kind of touch points, but of those other kind of touch points, but of those other kind of touch points, but you see that I think in the best you see that I think in the best you see that I think in the best apologists within the tradition.

apologists within the tradition. apologists within the tradition. Chris, were you consciously trying to do Chris, were you consciously trying to do Chris, were you consciously trying to do any retrieval work or using historical any retrieval work or using historical any retrieval work or using historical models in your book, Biblical Critical models in your book, Biblical Critical models in your book, Biblical Critical Theory? Theory? Theory? >> Massively. Yeah. Um, >> Massively. Yeah. Um, >> Massively. Yeah. Um, it only really clicked for me what it only really clicked for me what it only really clicked for me what what ended up being called biblical what ended up being called biblical what ended up being called biblical critical theory might look like when I critical theory might look like when I critical theory might look like when I first read Augustine, City of God. Um, first read Augustine, City of God. Um, first read Augustine, City of God. Um, and confession time. I I didn't and confession time. I I didn't and confession time. I I didn't understand much of it the first time I understand much of it the first time I understand much of it the first time I read it or the names of the Roman gods read it or the names of the Roman gods read it or the names of the Roman gods and heroes like no idea who that is. But and heroes like no idea who that is. But and heroes like no idea who that is. But one thing that I did get from it was the one thing that I did get from it was the one thing that I did get from it was the idea and and this is just brilliant. And idea and and this is just brilliant. And idea and and this is just brilliant. And if you haven't read the city of God if you haven't read the city of God if you haven't read the city of God really make it a priority. It's it's a really make it a priority. It's it's a really make it a priority. It's it's a tough book. I'm just going to recommend tough book. I'm just going to recommend tough book. I'm just going to recommend one secondary text to help you get one secondary text to help you get one secondary text to help you get through it. Um Charles Matthews lecturer through it. Um Charles Matthews lecturer through it. Um Charles Matthews lecturer at University of Virginia has a series at University of Virginia has a series at University of Virginia has a series of talks, one on each chapter of the of talks, one on each chapter of the of talks, one on each chapter of the city of God. I think you can get them city of God. I think you can get them city of God. I think you can get them off Amazon. It's like the great book off Amazon. It's like the great book off Amazon. It's like the great book series or something like if you Google series or something like if you Google series or something like if you Google Charles Matthews m a t h e wes city of Charles Matthews m a t h e wes city of Charles Matthews m a t h e wes city of god. That's the way I got into it.

god. That's the way I got into it. god. That's the way I got into it. That's how I made sense of it That's how I made sense of it That's how I made sense of it subsequently. But the first time I read subsequently. But the first time I read subsequently. But the first time I read it, what I got from it was that he's it, what I got from it was that he's it, what I got from it was that he's using the whole of the Bible in the using the whole of the Bible in the using the whole of the Bible in the second half of the city of God. He's second half of the city of God. He's second half of the city of God. He's starting off with the angels before starting off with the angels before starting off with the angels before creation and he's moving all the way creation and he's moving all the way creation and he's moving all the way through to the end of the Bible. That's through to the end of the Bible. That's through to the end of the Bible. That's his framework for critiquing Rome. And his framework for critiquing Rome. And his framework for critiquing Rome. And he's critiquing the whole of Roman he's critiquing the whole of Roman he's critiquing the whole of Roman society. Not just sort of parachuting society. Not just sort of parachuting society. Not just sort of parachuting down and dismantling one thing that Rome down and dismantling one thing that Rome down and dismantling one thing that Rome is doing what wrong and then airlifting is doing what wrong and then airlifting is doing what wrong and then airlifting himself back up afterwards, which is himself back up afterwards, which is himself back up afterwards, which is sometimes what our cultural critique can sometimes what our cultural critique can sometimes what our cultural critique can feel like. But he's looking at the whole feel like. But he's looking at the whole feel like. But he's looking at the whole ecosystem of Roman thought. It's it's ecosystem of Roman thought. It's it's ecosystem of Roman thought. It's it's politics, it's religion, it's games and politics, it's religion, it's games and politics, it's religion, it's games and pastimes. And he's filtering that pastimes. And he's filtering that pastimes. And he's filtering that through a biblical lens. And it is so through a biblical lens. And it is so through a biblical lens. And it is so powerful what he's able to say because powerful what he's able to say because powerful what he's able to say because he's speaking not simply as someone he's speaking not simply as someone he's speaking not simply as someone coming in with a bulldozer to say coming in with a bulldozer to say coming in with a bulldozer to say everything that Rome is doing is wrong. everything that Rome is doing is wrong. everything that Rome is doing is wrong. You know, he's teaching rhetoric in You know, he's teaching rhetoric in You know, he's teaching rhetoric in Carthage and Rome. He understands his Carthage and Rome. He understands his Carthage and Rome. He understands his Cicero. He's teaching Cicero to Roman Cicero. He's teaching Cicero to Roman Cicero. He's teaching Cicero to Roman boys. He gets it. He gets why this boys. He gets it. He gets why this boys. He gets it. He gets why this culture sparkles to Rome. He he can talk culture sparkles to Rome. He he can talk culture sparkles to Rome. He he can talk about the culture in a way that Romans about the culture in a way that Romans about the culture in a way that Romans listening to him think, "Yes, you listening to him think, "Yes, you listening to him think, "Yes, you understand. You've got it. And yet he's understand. You've got it. And yet he's understand. You've got it. And yet he's not so immersed in the culture that he not so immersed in the culture that he not so immersed in the culture that he can also take a step back because he's can also take a step back because he's can also take a step back because he's looking at it through a biblical point looking at it through a biblical point looking at it through a biblical point of view and just see the the weirdness of view and just see the the weirdness of view and just see the the weirdness almost the the hilariousness at times of almost the the hilariousness at times of almost the the hilariousness at times of Roman cultures. There's this lovely I Roman cultures. There's this lovely I Roman cultures. There's this lovely I won't go on for too long, I promise.

won't go on for too long, I promise. won't go on for too long, I promise. There's this one um moment in the city There's this one um moment in the city There's this one um moment in the city of God where Augustine um is looking at of God where Augustine um is looking at of God where Augustine um is looking at the number of gods you need to guard a the number of gods you need to guard a the number of gods you need to guard a doorway and he says, "Hold on, let me doorway and he says, "Hold on, let me doorway and he says, "Hold on, let me count. You need one god for the hinges. count. You need one god for the hinges. count. You need one god for the hinges. You need one for the threshold. And you You need one for the threshold. And you You need one for the threshold. And you need one for the door itself. You need need one for the door itself. You need need one for the door itself. You need three gods to guard a doorway. Like one three gods to guard a doorway. Like one three gods to guard a doorway. Like one door person is usually enough. You know, door person is usually enough. You know, door person is usually enough. You know, this is a bit overkill. And so he's able this is a bit overkill. And so he's able this is a bit overkill. And so he's able to look at the culture with the eyes of to look at the culture with the eyes of to look at the culture with the eyes of an outsider because he's his blood runs an outsider because he's his blood runs an outsider because he's his blood runs blind as they say of John John Bunan. blind as they say of John John Bunan. blind as they say of John John Bunan. And yet he's also an insider. And so but And yet he's also an insider. And so but And yet he's also an insider. And so but this pattern of being an insider this pattern of being an insider this pattern of being an insider outsider using the whole of the Bible to outsider using the whole of the Bible to outsider using the whole of the Bible to critique the whole of the culture is critique the whole of the culture is critique the whole of the culture is just brilliant. Brilliant. just brilliant. Brilliant. just brilliant. Brilliant. It's dangerous to be caught talking It's dangerous to be caught talking It's dangerous to be caught talking about Augustine between the two of you. about Augustine between the two of you. about Augustine between the two of you. So So So watch out there. Uh Chris, your concept watch out there. Uh Chris, your concept watch out there. Uh Chris, your concept of diagonalization of diagonalization of diagonalization uh which you lay out in biblical uh which you lay out in biblical uh which you lay out in biblical critical theory, it's it's come under critical theory, it's it's come under critical theory, it's it's come under some scrutiny and debates, especially some scrutiny and debates, especially some scrutiny and debates, especially those over Tim Keller and what others those over Tim Keller and what others those over Tim Keller and what others have described as the third way. Um your have described as the third way. Um your have described as the third way. Um your biblical critical theory was really a a biblical critical theory was really a a biblical critical theory was really a a rare book even with academic length, rare book even with academic length, rare book even with academic length, academic heft, you still drove a lot of academic heft, you still drove a lot of academic heft, you still drove a lot of conversation around the church. Did your conversation around the church. Did your conversation around the church. Did your critics in the sub in the last couple critics in the sub in the last couple critics in the sub in the last couple years, have they helped you rethink years, have they helped you rethink years, have they helped you rethink anything that you wrote in that book?

anything that you wrote in that book? anything that you wrote in that book? >> It's a really helpful question. I I >> It's a really helpful question. I I >> It's a really helpful question. I I think as an academic, you're used to think as an academic, you're used to think as an academic, you're used to getting lots of criticism. Um that's getting lots of criticism. Um that's getting lots of criticism. Um that's that's the way academia works. Blind that's the way academia works. Blind that's the way academia works. Blind peer review is is really healthy. People peer review is is really healthy. People peer review is is really healthy. People telling you very kindly how you're telling you very kindly how you're telling you very kindly how you're wrong. wrong. wrong. >> We should try it with preachers in the >> We should try it with preachers in the >> We should try it with preachers in the church, huh? church, huh? church, huh? >> Well, yes, I suppose there's that as >> Well, yes, I suppose there's that as >> Well, yes, I suppose there's that as well. It's actually well. It's actually well. It's actually >> anonymous emails. >> anonymous emails. >> anonymous emails. >> Um, that you get >> Um, that you get >> Um, that you get >> so the the the good faith criticism that >> so the the the good faith criticism that >> so the the the good faith criticism that that I've received over the book has that I've received over the book has that I've received over the book has just been incredibly helpful uh pointing just been incredibly helpful uh pointing just been incredibly helpful uh pointing to things that that I hadn't necessarily to things that that I hadn't necessarily to things that that I hadn't necessarily thought about. I I don't think there's thought about. I I don't think there's thought about. I I don't think there's anything that I would go back and anything that I would go back and anything that I would go back and change, but that the critiques have change, but that the critiques have change, but that the critiques have pushed me to go deeper and to expand pushed me to go deeper and to expand pushed me to go deeper and to expand what I was saying. And and one key area what I was saying. And and one key area what I was saying. And and one key area I think is the the way in which a a I think is the the way in which a a I think is the the way in which a a biblical framework like the one I've biblical framework like the one I've biblical framework like the one I've just been talking about in in relation just been talking about in in relation just been talking about in in relation to Augustine, what that looks like on to Augustine, what that looks like on to Augustine, what that looks like on the ground, the difference between your the ground, the difference between your the ground, the difference between your your sort of overall strategy as a your sort of overall strategy as a your sort of overall strategy as a Christian and your particular tactics in Christian and your particular tactics in Christian and your particular tactics in a situation. So for example, biblical a situation. So for example, biblical a situation. So for example, biblical critical theory, fine, but when I get critical theory, fine, but when I get critical theory, fine, but when I get into the voting booth, where do I put my into the voting booth, where do I put my into the voting booth, where do I put my cross? You know, how does it shake out cross? You know, how does it shake out cross? You know, how does it shake out in those very practical situations? Um, in those very practical situations? Um, in those very practical situations? Um, and and where I've come to on that one and and where I've come to on that one and and where I've come to on that one is I think if you don't have a framework is I think if you don't have a framework is I think if you don't have a framework that is bigger that is bigger that is bigger than the platform offered by the two than the platform offered by the two than the platform offered by the two parties, you can't meaningfully put your parties, you can't meaningfully put your parties, you can't meaningfully put your cross anywhere. So, you're just going to cross anywhere. So, you're just going to cross anywhere. So, you're just going to be a slave of one of the package deals

be a slave of one of the package deals be a slave of one of the package deals given to you. In order to make that given to you. In order to make that given to you. In order to make that choice meaningfully one way or another, choice meaningfully one way or another, choice meaningfully one way or another, you need a framework bigger than those you need a framework bigger than those you need a framework bigger than those two. And so it's not that there's a two. And so it's not that there's a two. And so it's not that there's a tension between having to put your cross tension between having to put your cross tension between having to put your cross somewhere and having a framework that's somewhere and having a framework that's somewhere and having a framework that's bigger than a party platform and that bigger than a party platform and that bigger than a party platform and that doesn't fully fit with either party doesn't fully fit with either party doesn't fully fit with either party platform. It's actually that you need platform. It's actually that you need platform. It's actually that you need that framework to make a meaningful that framework to make a meaningful that framework to make a meaningful choice that's not just a slavish choice. choice that's not just a slavish choice. choice that's not just a slavish choice. >> You and I were talking about this a >> You and I were talking about this a >> You and I were talking about this a little bit last night and you had little bit last night and you had little bit last night and you had mentioned the way that it doesn't make mentioned the way that it doesn't make mentioned the way that it doesn't make any sense to do this anyway because the any sense to do this anyway because the any sense to do this anyway because the different parties ideologies will different parties ideologies will different parties ideologies will change. I think what we've seen though change. I think what we've seen though change. I think what we've seen though is a giving way of ideological is a giving way of ideological is a giving way of ideological orientation to parties toward more orientation to parties toward more orientation to parties toward more identity politics and that then can identity politics and that then can identity politics and that then can shift because the ideologies don't shift because the ideologies don't shift because the ideologies don't matter is simply a matter of one tribe matter is simply a matter of one tribe matter is simply a matter of one tribe versus another tribe but that becomes versus another tribe but that becomes versus another tribe but that becomes even more dangerous in a lot of even more dangerous in a lot of even more dangerous in a lot of different ways there. Um Josh you of different ways there. Um Josh you of different ways there. Um Josh you of course you teach apologetics here you course you teach apologetics here you course you teach apologetics here you taught apologetics other places before.

taught apologetics other places before. taught apologetics other places before. We have a partnership in apologetics We have a partnership in apologetics We have a partnership in apologetics with Bon and and the Keller Center. Uh, with Bon and and the Keller Center. Uh, with Bon and and the Keller Center. Uh, apologetics has been really in the news apologetics has been really in the news apologetics has been really in the news as of late. It's been a kind of been a as of late. It's been a kind of been a as of late. It's been a kind of been a lot of people talking about this, a lot lot of people talking about this, a lot lot of people talking about this, a lot of people practicing this. We've had of people practicing this. We've had of people practicing this. We've had some prominent example of especially some prominent example of especially some prominent example of especially confrontational or debate style confrontational or debate style confrontational or debate style apologetics. Um, seems to be working apologetics. Um, seems to be working apologetics. Um, seems to be working pretty well on college campuses pretty well on college campuses pretty well on college campuses especially and social media. And I'm especially and social media. And I'm especially and social media. And I'm wondering, is there a contrast there wondering, is there a contrast there wondering, is there a contrast there between that and what's been described between that and what's been described between that and what's been described as a more winsome approach to as a more winsome approach to as a more winsome approach to apologetics, or is that inconsistent apologetics, or is that inconsistent apologetics, or is that inconsistent with what we're describing as cultural with what we're describing as cultural with what we're describing as cultural apologetics? apologetics? apologetics? >> Well, I think what we're talking about >> Well, I think what we're talking about >> Well, I think what we're talking about is arguments. So, I wouldn't want I is arguments. So, I wouldn't want I is arguments. So, I wouldn't want I don't know. I think Chris would say don't know. I think Chris would say don't know. I think Chris would say this, too. We're not saying, "Hey, let's this, too. We're not saying, "Hey, let's this, too. We're not saying, "Hey, let's leave those arguments aside and just leave those arguments aside and just leave those arguments aside and just tell our stories." you know, that's not. tell our stories." you know, that's not. tell our stories." you know, that's not. And so when we um when we're talking And so when we um when we're talking And so when we um when we're talking about telling a better story or out about telling a better story or out about telling a better story or out narrating that there's there's a way to narrating that there's there's a way to narrating that there's there's a way to think about rationality that is is think about rationality that is is think about rationality that is is rationality simply facts rationality simply facts rationality simply facts and the the kind of evidence available and the the kind of evidence available and the the kind of evidence available and then basic logic or does does does and then basic logic or does does does and then basic logic or does does does do those things fit into a bigger kind do those things fit into a bigger kind do those things fit into a bigger kind of framework that social imaginary or of framework that social imaginary or of framework that social imaginary or that framework or those assumptions can that framework or those assumptions can that framework or those assumptions can carry a lot of weight on how people are carry a lot of weight on how people are carry a lot of weight on how people are actually actually actually uh engaging facts. And so I think one of uh engaging facts. And so I think one of uh engaging facts. And so I think one of the differences is we're we're the differences is we're we're the differences is we're we're recognizing not only are people often recognizing not only are people often recognizing not only are people often not persuaded, and we'll get to this

not persuaded, and we'll get to this not persuaded, and we'll get to this what's working here in a second, they're what's working here in a second, they're what's working here in a second, they're not actually persuaded to to switch not actually persuaded to to switch not actually persuaded to to switch sides simply with facts, simply with you sides simply with facts, simply with you sides simply with facts, simply with you have to go underneath and go deeper. And have to go underneath and go deeper. And have to go underneath and go deeper. And that actually takes often more than a that actually takes often more than a that actually takes often more than a debate, but a conversation. Um and and debate, but a conversation. Um and and debate, but a conversation. Um and and so that's that's part of why I think you so that's that's part of why I think you so that's that's part of why I think you see some contrast because we're trying see some contrast because we're trying see some contrast because we're trying to work through some assumptions that to work through some assumptions that to work through some assumptions that people have that aren't going to be as people have that aren't going to be as people have that aren't going to be as easily resolved by just kind of throwing easily resolved by just kind of throwing easily resolved by just kind of throwing out facts. When we talk about working, I out facts. When we talk about working, I out facts. When we talk about working, I mean that gets into a kind of pragmatic mean that gets into a kind of pragmatic mean that gets into a kind of pragmatic model and again I I think we should talk model and again I I think we should talk model and again I I think we should talk about fruitfulness and that can be about fruitfulness and that can be about fruitfulness and that can be helpful but sometimes what's working is helpful but sometimes what's working is helpful but sometimes what's working is just a spectacle i.e. working right and just a spectacle i.e. working right and just a spectacle i.e. working right and so if you put people into a cage match so if you put people into a cage match so if you put people into a cage match people kind of say how how's that going people kind of say how how's that going people kind of say how how's that going to go? But is that working? Is and in to go? But is that working? Is and in to go? But is that working? Is and in what sense is that working? I think we what sense is that working? I think we what sense is that working? I think we need to ask some deeper questions. I need to ask some deeper questions. I need to ask some deeper questions. I mean is that if if the bigger um if the mean is that if if the bigger um if the mean is that if if the bigger um if the if the aim is disciples who look like if the aim is disciples who look like if the aim is disciples who look like Jesus and bear fruit of the spirit, then Jesus and bear fruit of the spirit, then Jesus and bear fruit of the spirit, then the tactics to build off some of the the tactics to build off some of the the tactics to build off some of the language Chris is using, I'd say should language Chris is using, I'd say should language Chris is using, I'd say should should fit with our kind of strategy of should fit with our kind of strategy of should fit with our kind of strategy of where we're going. And so if and and where we're going. And so if and and where we're going. And so if and and this is what you see and the only time this is what you see and the only time this is what you see and the only time the word that's you know uh that's the word that's you know uh that's the word that's you know uh that's translated you know apologetics 1 Peter translated you know apologetics 1 Peter translated you know apologetics 1 Peter 3:15 giving a reason the the only time 3:15 giving a reason the the only time 3:15 giving a reason the the only time we have that in the New Testament is we have that in the New Testament is we have that in the New Testament is with gentleness and respect. So there with gentleness and respect. So there with gentleness and respect. So there seems to be this onus on gentleness

seems to be this onus on gentleness seems to be this onus on gentleness respect pers persuading by going deeper respect pers persuading by going deeper respect pers persuading by going deeper than merely kind of evidence and trying than merely kind of evidence and trying than merely kind of evidence and trying to get at the heart. And I think that's to get at the heart. And I think that's to get at the heart. And I think that's maybe some of the differences what we're maybe some of the differences what we're maybe some of the differences what we're seeing. But let me let me give you maybe seeing. But let me let me give you maybe seeing. But let me let me give you maybe maybe an analogy since we're talking maybe an analogy since we're talking maybe an analogy since we're talking football and and Alabama and LSU. You football and and Alabama and LSU. You football and and Alabama and LSU. You know, if you if you show up to the game know, if you if you show up to the game know, if you if you show up to the game on Saturday in your Alabama hat uh and on Saturday in your Alabama hat uh and on Saturday in your Alabama hat uh and you and you go roll tide and you get you and you go roll tide and you get you and you go roll tide and you get into like get in an Auburn fan's face into like get in an Auburn fan's face into like get in an Auburn fan's face and say roll tide. and say roll tide. and say roll tide. I mean, are you persuading them to I mean, are you persuading them to I mean, are you persuading them to become an AL? Is that going to be become an AL? Is that going to be become an AL? Is that going to be effective? Now, if you see other Bama effective? Now, if you see other Bama effective? Now, if you see other Bama fans and you say roll tide, they're say fans and you say roll tide, they're say fans and you say roll tide, they're say roll tide and you say it's working. See, roll tide and you say it's working. See, roll tide and you say it's working. See, this is really working. Everyone's this is really working. Everyone's this is really working. Everyone's excited, right? And is is that kind of excited, right? And is is that kind of excited, right? And is is that kind of what we mean by working? That people are what we mean by working? That people are what we mean by working? That people are getting excited when we yell really loud getting excited when we yell really loud getting excited when we yell really loud for our team and we say everyone else is for our team and we say everyone else is for our team and we say everyone else is losers. Well, that can draw losers. Well, that can draw losers. Well, that can draw >> post the video of the fight on social >> post the video of the fight on social >> post the video of the fight on social media media media >> and and we that can draw a kind of Bama >> and and we that can draw a kind of Bama >> and and we that can draw a kind of Bama fan, you know, I guess, or Auburn fan fan, you know, I guess, or Auburn fan fan, you know, I guess, or Auburn fan and that's your side and say, "Yeah, and that's your side and say, "Yeah, and that's your side and say, "Yeah, we're the best." Yeah. Is that actually we're the best." Yeah. Is that actually we're the best." Yeah. Is that actually persuading someone to switch teams?

persuading someone to switch teams? persuading someone to switch teams? >> I I don't think so. And I actually know >> I I don't think so. And I actually know >> I I don't think so. And I actually know so because it's deeply it's deeply so because it's deeply it's deeply so because it's deeply it's deeply religious here, right? Auburn, Alabama religious here, right? Auburn, Alabama religious here, right? Auburn, Alabama football. football. football. >> And I do wonder sometimes >> And I do wonder sometimes >> And I do wonder sometimes when we're when we're we're saying when we're when we're we're saying when we're when we're we're saying something's working, it's certainly something's working, it's certainly something's working, it's certainly drawing a crowd. It's certainly causing drawing a crowd. It's certainly causing drawing a crowd. It's certainly causing a lot of excitement, but if the g if if a lot of excitement, but if the g if if a lot of excitement, but if the g if if the aim is making disciples, the aim is making disciples, the aim is making disciples, um, is it if it's actually persuading um, is it if it's actually persuading um, is it if it's actually persuading the unconvinced? the unconvinced? the unconvinced? Um, well, I'm I'm not I'm not sure if if Um, well, I'm I'm not I'm not sure if if Um, well, I'm I'm not I'm not sure if if that's always the case. that's always the case. that's always the case. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you have thoughts there, Chris, in >> Do you have thoughts there, Chris, in >> Do you have thoughts there, Chris, in light of the the sermon that you just light of the the sermon that you just light of the the sermon that you just preached? Were you focused on the kind preached? Were you focused on the kind preached? Were you focused on the kind of people that were becoming as opposed of people that were becoming as opposed of people that were becoming as opposed to f focusing merely on the supposed to f focusing merely on the supposed to f focusing merely on the supposed outcomes? It it would be a great shame, outcomes? It it would be a great shame, outcomes? It it would be a great shame, would it not, if the people who had would it not, if the people who had would it not, if the people who had heard Paul uh preach in Listister and heard Paul uh preach in Listister and heard Paul uh preach in Listister and Derby uh said that's what you've got to Derby uh said that's what you've got to Derby uh said that's what you've got to do in Athens. Um or if the Athenians do in Athens. Um or if the Athenians do in Athens. Um or if the Athenians said you got to quote the poets, it's said you got to quote the poets, it's said you got to quote the poets, it's the way it's the way to win them. Um but the way it's the way to win them. Um but the way it's the way to win them. Um but it's the same preacher with radically it's the same preacher with radically it's the same preacher with radically differently clothed messages in in in differently clothed messages in in in differently clothed messages in in in both contexts. Um because the audience both contexts. Um because the audience both contexts. Um because the audience is is different. Um, and there's also a is is different. Um, and there's also a is is different. Um, and there's also a there should also should there not be a there should also should there not be a there should also should there not be a a a a an admission in the church, a a an admission in the church, a a an admission in the church, a a tolerance for a range of approaches. Uh, tolerance for a range of approaches. Uh, tolerance for a range of approaches. Uh, we have different personalities. We we we have different personalities. We we we have different personalities. We we have different congregations we're we're have different congregations we're we're have different congregations we're we're preaching to. Um, and if we insist that

preaching to. Um, and if we insist that preaching to. Um, and if we insist that there be one single cookie cutter mood there be one single cookie cutter mood there be one single cookie cutter mood that we must adopt as we commend the that we must adopt as we commend the that we must adopt as we commend the gospel to people. Uh, I think we we're gospel to people. Uh, I think we we're gospel to people. Uh, I think we we're laying on people um a burden that the laying on people um a burden that the laying on people um a burden that the scripture doesn't mandate of us. seems scripture doesn't mandate of us. seems scripture doesn't mandate of us. seems like we also get stuck in a ditch like we also get stuck in a ditch like we also get stuck in a ditch debating the ministry of Jesus because debating the ministry of Jesus because debating the ministry of Jesus because some people will talk about well there's some people will talk about well there's some people will talk about well there's this passage over here where he seems to this passage over here where he seems to this passage over here where he seems to be so gentle respectful but then over be so gentle respectful but then over be so gentle respectful but then over here he seems not to be he seems to be here he seems not to be he seems to be here he seems not to be he seems to be much more confrontational how are we much more confrontational how are we much more confrontational how are we supposed to synthesize those supposed to synthesize those supposed to synthesize those >> I think there are two things to say >> I think there are two things to say >> I think there are two things to say there I mean first of all we're not there I mean first of all we're not there I mean first of all we're not Jesus Jesus Jesus and no in the very important sense that and no in the very important sense that and no in the very important sense that when he's letting rip at the Pharisees when he's letting rip at the Pharisees when he's letting rip at the Pharisees And you can only imagine him shouting in And you can only imagine him shouting in And you can only imagine him shouting in those passages, can't you? You brood of those passages, can't you? You brood of those passages, can't you? You brood of vipers. He knows absolutely that he is vipers. He knows absolutely that he is vipers. He knows absolutely that he is in the right and this is the right in the right and this is the right in the right and this is the right target. These are the people to be angry target. These are the people to be angry target. These are the people to be angry at. Um our own hearts, although we we do at. Um our own hearts, although we we do at. Um our own hearts, although we we do take stands uh and we we do draw lines, take stands uh and we we do draw lines, take stands uh and we we do draw lines, we should always remember that we don't we should always remember that we don't we should always remember that we don't have his 2020 vision of things. We we have his 2020 vision of things. We we have his 2020 vision of things. We we seek to understand and interpret God's seek to understand and interpret God's seek to understand and interpret God's word correctly. But I think there's word correctly. But I think there's word correctly. But I think there's there's a danger in reading directly there's a danger in reading directly there's a danger in reading directly over from the ministry of Jesus to us as over from the ministry of Jesus to us as over from the ministry of Jesus to us as if we were in the same position as him.

if we were in the same position as him. if we were in the same position as him. Um so you will if it would be better I Um so you will if it would be better I Um so you will if it would be better I think to to read over from people like think to to read over from people like think to to read over from people like Timothy to us um that there's a certain Timothy to us um that there's a certain Timothy to us um that there's a certain humility that comes with not being the humility that comes with not being the humility that comes with not being the son of God that that it behooves us to son of God that that it behooves us to son of God that that it behooves us to um to think about. But I think um to think about. But I think um to think about. But I think >> there was quite a bit of humility in the >> there was quite a bit of humility in the >> there was quite a bit of humility in the son of God himself which allowed him to son of God himself which allowed him to son of God himself which allowed him to be able to even in love issue those very be able to even in love issue those very be able to even in love issue those very difficult condemnations also the judge difficult condemnations also the judge difficult condemnations also the judge >> but but with that proviso in hand it it >> but but with that proviso in hand it it >> but but with that proviso in hand it it is really striking isn't it how is really striking isn't it how is really striking isn't it how versatile Jesus is like he he's pitch versatile Jesus is like he he's pitch versatile Jesus is like he he's pitch perfect he just lets rip at those perfect he just lets rip at those perfect he just lets rip at those Pharisees like no quarter given he's in Pharisees like no quarter given he's in Pharisees like no quarter given he's in their faces even when they try and sort their faces even when they try and sort their faces even when they try and sort come a little bit to meet him. He's not come a little bit to meet him. He's not come a little bit to meet him. He's not having any of it. He's he's vicious with having any of it. He's he's vicious with having any of it. He's he's vicious with the Pharisees. Really vicious. And then the Pharisees. Really vicious. And then the Pharisees. Really vicious. And then you you look at a an incident like the you you look at a an incident like the you you look at a an incident like the the woman caught in adultery. He doesn't the woman caught in adultery. He doesn't the woman caught in adultery. He doesn't even say anything. He bends down. He even say anything. He bends down. He even say anything. He bends down. He writes in the sand or the woman at the writes in the sand or the woman at the writes in the sand or the woman at the well he's more gentle with. Um, and I I well he's more gentle with. Um, and I I well he's more gentle with. Um, and I I think what we take from that is that think what we take from that is that think what we take from that is that there are times that do call for there are times that do call for there are times that do call for stridency and there are times that call stridency and there are times that call stridency and there are times that call for great gentleness. And Jesus could for great gentleness. And Jesus could for great gentleness. And Jesus could get it right every time. And the problem get it right every time. And the problem get it right every time. And the problem with us is that we treat Pharisees as if with us is that we treat Pharisees as if with us is that we treat Pharisees as if they were women caught in adultery often they were women caught in adultery often they were women caught in adultery often and we c we treat women caught in and we c we treat women caught in and we c we treat women caught in adultery as if they were Pharisees. And adultery as if they were Pharisees. And adultery as if they were Pharisees. And that's why we need each other in the that's why we need each other in the that's why we need each other in the church, isn't it? Because none of us has

church, isn't it? Because none of us has church, isn't it? Because none of us has Jesus's pitch perfectness. And so we all Jesus's pitch perfectness. And so we all Jesus's pitch perfectness. And so we all need someone to pull us aside and say, need someone to pull us aside and say, need someone to pull us aside and say, "You went in too hard there. That person "You went in too hard there. That person "You went in too hard there. That person was hurting. That was not okay." Or to was hurting. That was not okay." Or to was hurting. That was not okay." Or to say, "This is a false teacher. We, you say, "This is a false teacher. We, you say, "This is a false teacher. We, you know, this is a wolf." You know, and so know, this is a wolf." You know, and so know, this is a wolf." You know, and so we we help each other to try and get a we we help each other to try and get a we we help each other to try and get a little bit closer to Jesus's perfect little bit closer to Jesus's perfect little bit closer to Jesus's perfect assessment of every situation. assessment of every situation. assessment of every situation. >> Um, that's that's really good, Chris. >> Um, that's that's really good, Chris. >> Um, that's that's really good, Chris. And I I I just would want to add if And I I I just would want to add if And I I I just would want to add if there seems to be a pattern uh in the there seems to be a pattern uh in the there seems to be a pattern uh in the New Testament with insider outsider. So New Testament with insider outsider. So New Testament with insider outsider. So you see this in first Corinthians 5, you see this in first Corinthians 5, you see this in first Corinthians 5, those inside the church versus those those inside the church versus those those inside the church versus those outside the church. And we're to judge outside the church. And we're to judge outside the church. And we're to judge each other inside the church, but but each other inside the church, but but each other inside the church, but but but not outside is what is what he's but not outside is what is what he's but not outside is what is what he's saying. And then you see this in even saying. And then you see this in even saying. And then you see this in even the examples you gave us where people the examples you gave us where people the examples you gave us where people who are marginalized put to the kind of who are marginalized put to the kind of who are marginalized put to the kind of pushed out by the religious community. pushed out by the religious community. pushed out by the religious community. He seems to be um he he he treats them He seems to be um he he he treats them He seems to be um he he he treats them as people who kind of see their their as people who kind of see their their as people who kind of see their their sickness, their their they're oppressed, sickness, their their they're oppressed, sickness, their their they're oppressed, they're marginalized, and he he he they're marginalized, and he he he they're marginalized, and he he he reaches out to them with a kind of reaches out to them with a kind of reaches out to them with a kind of different spirit than he does the different spirit than he does the different spirit than he does the religious leaders. So again, I'm I'm not religious leaders. So again, I'm I'm not religious leaders. So again, I'm I'm not saying that that's kind of law there saying that that's kind of law there saying that that's kind of law there because this is this is about being the because this is this is about being the because this is this is about being the right type of apologist, apologist of right type of apologist, apologist of right type of apologist, apologist of virtue and to be doing this in community virtue and to be doing this in community virtue and to be doing this in community as Chris is saying. And so we have to as Chris is saying. And so we have to as Chris is saying. And so we have to make certain uh decisions of prudence make certain uh decisions of prudence make certain uh decisions of prudence rather than just simply law here on how rather than just simply law here on how rather than just simply law here on how to how to care for people um care for to how to care for people um care for to how to care for people um care for lost people, care for people doubting in lost people, care for people doubting in lost people, care for people doubting in in the church. But I I also think as a

in the church. But I I also think as a in the church. But I I also think as a guide there's there there seems to me to guide there's there there seems to me to guide there's there there seems to me to be a pattern in the New Testament. um be a pattern in the New Testament. um be a pattern in the New Testament. um not just well I don't like that guy so not just well I don't like that guy so not just well I don't like that guy so I'm going to come in hard I don't like I'm going to come in hard I don't like I'm going to come in hard I don't like that person there's there seems to be that person there's there seems to be that person there's there seems to be other factors there that um that I think other factors there that um that I think other factors there that um that I think the Lord has given us to help us discern shift gears a little bit here Chris now shift gears a little bit here Chris now apologetics can be intimidating apologetics can be intimidating apologetics can be intimidating uh we've just heard you preach both of uh we've just heard you preach both of uh we've just heard you preach both of you talk uh so eloquently your arid you talk uh so eloquently your arid you talk uh so eloquently your arid ariodite we can't I'll teach the way ariodite we can't I'll teach the way ariodite we can't I'll teach the way that you guys do. Um, haven't had the that you guys do. Um, haven't had the that you guys do. Um, haven't had the time or the years to be able to study as time or the years to be able to study as time or the years to be able to study as you've studied. But the premise that we you've studied. But the premise that we you've studied. But the premise that we have in this book, the gospel after have in this book, the gospel after have in this book, the gospel after Christryendom, and what we teach here at Christryendom, and what we teach here at Christryendom, and what we teach here at Beast and Divinity School, is that Beast and Divinity School, is that Beast and Divinity School, is that apologetics is for the whole church. How apologetics is for the whole church. How apologetics is for the whole church. How can those two things go together at the can those two things go together at the can those two things go together at the same time when they hear people who have same time when they hear people who have same time when they hear people who have studied all these things and they feel, studied all these things and they feel, studied all these things and they feel, I I'm never going to catch up to that. I I'm never going to catch up to that. I I'm never going to catch up to that. How can it be for everybody else, too?

How can it be for everybody else, too? How can it be for everybody else, too? I I think the threeword answer is 1 I I think the threeword answer is 1 I I think the threeword answer is 1 Corinthians 12. Um that every gift is is Corinthians 12. Um that every gift is is Corinthians 12. Um that every gift is is given for the whole church. Um and so given for the whole church. Um and so given for the whole church. Um and so Josh and myself and others uh have have Josh and myself and others uh have have Josh and myself and others uh have have a certain ability to um to write and and a certain ability to um to write and and a certain ability to um to write and and to use arguments. Um but we need to be to use arguments. Um but we need to be to use arguments. Um but we need to be jolly careful that we're using that to jolly careful that we're using that to jolly careful that we're using that to serve the whole church. Let me take an serve the whole church. Let me take an serve the whole church. Let me take an example um that that might help us to example um that that might help us to example um that that might help us to see. There's a couple at the my home see. There's a couple at the my home see. There's a couple at the my home church in Australia that are just church in Australia that are just church in Australia that are just wonderful at hospitality. Like they've wonderful at hospitality. Like they've wonderful at hospitality. Like they've got this fire pit going on Friday got this fire pit going on Friday got this fire pit going on Friday evenings that people come along to and I evenings that people come along to and I evenings that people come along to and I invite their friends and if there's invite their friends and if there's invite their friends and if there's someone at church who's by themselves someone at church who's by themselves someone at church who's by themselves you will see one of these couple be you will see one of these couple be you will see one of these couple be beside them within 30 seconds. You know beside them within 30 seconds. You know beside them within 30 seconds. You know they're they're just really really good. they're they're just really really good. they're they're just really really good. got a special gift at welcoming people got a special gift at welcoming people got a special gift at welcoming people and showing hospitality. Now, how do I and showing hospitality. Now, how do I and showing hospitality. Now, how do I respond to that as someone who's a respond to that as someone who's a respond to that as someone who's a little bit more awkward and and doesn't little bit more awkward and and doesn't little bit more awkward and and doesn't doesn't have that gift? Well, first of doesn't have that gift? Well, first of doesn't have that gift? Well, first of all, I rejoice in it. I'm so glad all, I rejoice in it. I'm so glad all, I rejoice in it. I'm so glad they're in our church. So, it's lovely.

they're in our church. So, it's lovely. they're in our church. So, it's lovely. They are helping the rest of us to see They are helping the rest of us to see They are helping the rest of us to see how to welcome people and how to to fold how to welcome people and how to to fold how to welcome people and how to to fold people in and to to create a porch for people in and to to create a porch for people in and to to create a porch for the church where outsiders can become the church where outsiders can become the church where outsiders can become insiders. And and I also learned from insiders. And and I also learned from insiders. And and I also learned from them. Oh, that's the first line he used them. Oh, that's the first line he used them. Oh, that's the first line he used with that person he didn't know. I'm try with that person he didn't know. I'm try with that person he didn't know. I'm try and remember that next time. Or oh, I and remember that next time. Or oh, I and remember that next time. Or oh, I see I I noticed that person as well, but see I I noticed that person as well, but see I I noticed that person as well, but I didn't go and sit with them and now I I didn't go and sit with them and now I I didn't go and sit with them and now I see he she's sitting with them. Okay, see he she's sitting with them. Okay, see he she's sitting with them. Okay, note to self. And so I'm I'm rejoicing note to self. And so I'm I'm rejoicing note to self. And so I'm I'm rejoicing in them and learning from them. And I in them and learning from them. And I in them and learning from them. And I think that's that's the case with all of think that's that's the case with all of think that's that's the case with all of our gifts, isn't it? If we use that our gifts, isn't it? If we use that our gifts, isn't it? If we use that image from one Corinthians 12, we're all image from one Corinthians 12, we're all image from one Corinthians 12, we're all bits of the body. You know, Josh and I, bits of the body. You know, Josh and I, bits of the body. You know, Josh and I, no offense, Josh, but we might be the no offense, Josh, but we might be the no offense, Josh, but we might be the toenails on the body. you know, the the toenails on the body. you know, the the toenails on the body. you know, the the apologists. Um, we're we, you know, apologists. Um, we're we, you know, apologists. Um, we're we, you know, we're we're doing our toenail thing and we're we're doing our toenail thing and we're we're doing our toenail thing and >> better be clipped or else you become >> better be clipped or else you become >> better be clipped or else you become >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Need need cleaning. Need need cleaning. Need need cleaning. Uh, and you know, we're we're doing our Uh, and you know, we're we're doing our Uh, and you know, we're we're doing our toenail thing and the whole body is toenail thing and the whole body is toenail thing and the whole body is benefiting, but we're not any other part benefiting, but we're not any other part benefiting, but we're not any other part of the body that and everybody is a part of the body that and everybody is a part of the body that and everybody is a part of the body doing an irreplaceable job, of the body doing an irreplaceable job, of the body doing an irreplaceable job, but it's it's the whole that benefits.

but it's it's the whole that benefits. but it's it's the whole that benefits. And apologetics is just a tiny little And apologetics is just a tiny little And apologetics is just a tiny little bit of that bigger picture. bit of that bigger picture. bit of that bigger picture. >> Josh, let's let's turn to pastors. This >> Josh, let's let's turn to pastors. This >> Josh, let's let's turn to pastors. This is the work that you're primarily is the work that you're primarily is the work that you're primarily engaged with. Combine let's a couple engaged with. Combine let's a couple engaged with. Combine let's a couple questions here. One, why should pastors questions here. One, why should pastors questions here. One, why should pastors study apologetics and that includes in study apologetics and that includes in study apologetics and that includes in the seminary, but also how does that the seminary, but also how does that the seminary, but also how does that relate to any trends that you're seeing relate to any trends that you're seeing relate to any trends that you're seeing in apologetics today? in apologetics today? in apologetics today? >> Yeah. No, I I do see more I do see more >> Yeah. No, I I do see more I do see more >> Yeah. No, I I do see more I do see more interest in apologetics. I think one of interest in apologetics. I think one of interest in apologetics. I think one of the one of the reasons is we have um the one of the reasons is we have um the one of the reasons is we have um well people in the church are struggling well people in the church are struggling well people in the church are struggling with doubt and unbelief and so there was with doubt and unbelief and so there was with doubt and unbelief and so there was a kind of in certain theological circles a kind of in certain theological circles a kind of in certain theological circles you know maybe maybe even around here in you know maybe maybe even around here in you know maybe maybe even around here in certain theological circles it was a certain theological circles it was a certain theological circles it was a kind of in the past it was like well kind of in the past it was like well kind of in the past it was like well it's apologetics those are just you know it's apologetics those are just you know it's apologetics those are just you know amateur theologians um that was a joke amateur theologians um that was a joke amateur theologians um that was a joke okay anyway you didn't Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Uh Uh Uh uh uh uh >> okay, you're laughing now. Maybe at me.

>> okay, you're laughing now. Maybe at me. >> okay, you're laughing now. Maybe at me. Um Um Um so, um you know what, what's but I think so, um you know what, what's but I think so, um you know what, what's but I think once you you know, you're dealing with a once you you know, you're dealing with a once you you know, you're dealing with a mother whose son is saying, uh like I mother whose son is saying, uh like I mother whose son is saying, uh like I don't believe this stuff anymore. All of don't believe this stuff anymore. All of don't believe this stuff anymore. All of a sudden, you become an apologist. you a sudden, you become an apologist. you a sudden, you become an apologist. you know, all of a sudden, um, when you're know, all of a sudden, um, when you're know, all of a sudden, um, when you're when you're talking to somebody and when you're talking to somebody and when you're talking to somebody and they're like, I just I'm really they're like, I just I'm really they're like, I just I'm really struggling with with evil and suffering. struggling with with evil and suffering. struggling with with evil and suffering. At that moment, you're an apologist. I At that moment, you're an apologist. I At that moment, you're an apologist. I mean I mean, you're not a professional mean I mean, you're not a professional mean I mean, you're not a professional apologist. You might have the the gift apologist. You might have the the gift apologist. You might have the the gift the gift, but at that moment even how do the gift, but at that moment even how do the gift, but at that moment even how do how do you offer Yeah. a word of how do you offer Yeah. a word of how do you offer Yeah. a word of encouragement or where do you point encouragement or where do you point encouragement or where do you point them? But certainly for pastors them? But certainly for pastors them? But certainly for pastors >> who they're coming like you're you're >> who they're coming like you're you're >> who they're coming like you're you're the front line of these questions. And the front line of these questions. And the front line of these questions. And so for me, apologetics isn't separated so for me, apologetics isn't separated so for me, apologetics isn't separated from everything else we do in from everything else we do in from everything else we do in theological education. But like theological education. But like theological education. But like preaching and like counseling, it's preaching and like counseling, it's preaching and like counseling, it's bringing all those things together, all bringing all those things together, all bringing all those things together, all of the disciplines, New Testament, Old of the disciplines, New Testament, Old of the disciplines, New Testament, Old Testament, um, history and doctrine, Testament, um, history and doctrine, Testament, um, history and doctrine, ethics, all those things. And then ethics, all those things. And then ethics, all those things. And then there's this moment of ministry.

there's this moment of ministry. there's this moment of ministry. And and and you're called to point them And and and you're called to point them And and and you're called to point them to Christ, to help them doubt their to Christ, to help them doubt their to Christ, to help them doubt their doubts, help them with their unbelief. doubts, help them with their unbelief. doubts, help them with their unbelief. And to me, that's just so much when I And to me, that's just so much when I And to me, that's just so much when I was in pastoral ministry, what I found was in pastoral ministry, what I found was in pastoral ministry, what I found myself doing. And really, myself doing. And really, myself doing. And really, a book I wrote years ago called Telling a book I wrote years ago called Telling a book I wrote years ago called Telling a Better Story was just the kind of a Better Story was just the kind of a Better Story was just the kind of framework and the type of thinking of, framework and the type of thinking of, framework and the type of thinking of, okay, how do I step inside where people okay, how do I step inside where people okay, how do I step inside where people are at? How do I understand the story are at? How do I understand the story are at? How do I understand the story that that's actually dominating their that that's actually dominating their that that's actually dominating their kind of the way they're thinking, the kind of the way they're thinking, the kind of the way they're thinking, the story that they're in that just feels story that they're in that just feels story that they're in that just feels normal? And then h how do I help them normal? And then h how do I help them normal? And then h how do I help them see the problems of that? and then how see the problems of that? and then how see the problems of that? and then how Christianity really is a better story. Christianity really is a better story. Christianity really is a better story. How how how they want to worship God and How how how they want to worship God and How how how they want to worship God and how that's better than worshiping how that's better than worshiping how that's better than worshiping whatever they're worshiping. And to me, whatever they're worshiping. And to me, whatever they're worshiping. And to me, this was the kind of grid that the kind this was the kind of grid that the kind this was the kind of grid that the kind of gospel persuasion day in and day out. of gospel persuasion day in and day out. of gospel persuasion day in and day out. And so now when I go to actually speak And so now when I go to actually speak And so now when I go to actually speak at churches, they typically want me to at churches, they typically want me to at churches, they typically want me to come do something on evangelism and we come do something on evangelism and we come do something on evangelism and we start talking about cultural narratives start talking about cultural narratives start talking about cultural narratives and we start talking about what's going and we start talking about what's going and we start talking about what's going on in culture and the the actual stories on in culture and the the actual stories on in culture and the the actual stories that are dominating out there. But very that are dominating out there. But very that are dominating out there. But very quickly it gets really kind of quickly it gets really kind of quickly it gets really kind of uncomfortable for most people cuz it's uncomfortable for most people cuz it's uncomfortable for most people cuz it's like actually this is the stories that like actually this is the stories that like actually this is the stories that we're living. The story of achievement, we're living. The story of achievement, we're living. The story of achievement, the story of I'm in control. I want more the story of I'm in control. I want more the story of I'm in control. I want more control. I want to extend more of my control. I want to extend more of my control. I want to extend more of my reach. And then we just kind of baptize reach. And then we just kind of baptize reach. And then we just kind of baptize the gospel into that. And very quickly the gospel into that. And very quickly the gospel into that. And very quickly it it becomes yes. What started off as a it it becomes yes. What started off as a it it becomes yes. What started off as a conversation about how to do evangelism conversation about how to do evangelism conversation about how to do evangelism becomes really an opportunity to to

becomes really an opportunity to to becomes really an opportunity to to repent and believe again. And so because repent and believe again. And so because repent and believe again. And so because we are catechized by the culture, it's we are catechized by the culture, it's we are catechized by the culture, it's not simply culture out there, but it's not simply culture out there, but it's not simply culture out there, but it's culture all around us. And so the kind culture all around us. And so the kind culture all around us. And so the kind of cultural exesus, the kind of of cultural exesus, the kind of of cultural exesus, the kind of understanding what's going on and how understanding what's going on and how understanding what's going on and how our hearts are being formed and our our hearts are being formed and our our hearts are being formed and our desires are being formed and then desires are being formed and then desires are being formed and then countering that with true belief in the countering that with true belief in the countering that with true belief in the gospel story to me is just part and gospel story to me is just part and gospel story to me is just part and parcel with ministry. And so we and so parcel with ministry. And so we and so parcel with ministry. And so we and so that's why I'm very happy to call it that's why I'm very happy to call it that's why I'm very happy to call it whatever people want to call it. Let's whatever people want to call it. Let's whatever people want to call it. Let's take people to Christ. Let's destroy take people to Christ. Let's destroy take people to Christ. Let's destroy faults. Let's show the emptiness of faults. Let's show the emptiness of faults. Let's show the emptiness of false idols and the problems with false idols and the problems with false idols and the problems with unbelief and let's point people to Jesus unbelief and let's point people to Jesus unbelief and let's point people to Jesus and make much of him. And then if we and make much of him. And then if we and make much of him. And then if we want to call it well, anything that's want to call it well, anything that's want to call it well, anything that's fine with me. Uh and but we've called it fine with me. Uh and but we've called it fine with me. Uh and but we've called it cultural apologetics and I'm I'm I guess cultural apologetics and I'm I'm I guess cultural apologetics and I'm I'm I guess I'm okay with it. Colin, I'm okay with it. Colin, I'm okay with it. Colin, >> finally all those debates across the >> finally all those debates across the >> finally all those debates across the thin walls on the third floor. Um uh a thin walls on the third floor. Um uh a thin walls on the third floor. Um uh a quick uh quick question for both of you quick uh quick question for both of you quick uh quick question for both of you as we prepare to take some audience as we prepare to take some audience as we prepare to take some audience questions here. Um this is a this is a questions here. Um this is a this is a questions here. Um this is a this is a retrieval project as we talked about retrieval project as we talked about retrieval project as we talked about earlier. So there are other there are earlier. So there are other there are earlier. So there are other there are other role models in history. We're other role models in history. We're other role models in history. We're going to actually prompt you here. You going to actually prompt you here. You going to actually prompt you here. You just finished reading this book on just finished reading this book on just finished reading this book on Pascal. Is that right? Are you in the Pascal. Is that right? Are you in the Pascal. Is that right? Are you in the process of it? I I mean I'm reading the process of it? I I mean I'm reading the process of it? I I mean I'm reading the same book. This is a really good book.

same book. This is a really good book. same book. This is a really good book. I've really been enjoying it. So maybe I've really been enjoying it. So maybe I've really been enjoying it. So maybe talk a little bit about Pascal as talk a little bit about Pascal as talk a little bit about Pascal as another one of these models. Um and then another one of these models. Um and then another one of these models. Um and then briefly if there's anybody else you want briefly if there's anybody else you want briefly if there's anybody else you want to reference. We've we've covered August to reference. We've we've covered August to reference. We've we've covered August and we've covered some others but yeah. and we've covered some others but yeah. and we've covered some others but yeah. So his his context just really quickly So his his context just really quickly So his his context just really quickly there's two things going on that are there's two things going on that are there's two things going on that are really um uh you got 17th century France really um uh you got 17th century France really um uh you got 17th century France and you've got um kind of two figures. and you've got um kind of two figures. and you've got um kind of two figures. one Michelle Montaine who is before him one Michelle Montaine who is before him one Michelle Montaine who is before him and he was really formally Catholic but and he was really formally Catholic but and he was really formally Catholic but he he's living in the midst of religious he he's living in the midst of religious he he's living in the midst of religious wars violence and he's also well wars violence and he's also well wars violence and he's also well schooled enough and has the leisure schooled enough and has the leisure schooled enough and has the leisure enough to read a lot of philosophy and enough to read a lot of philosophy and enough to read a lot of philosophy and his kind of his kind of saying was like his kind of his kind of saying was like his kind of his kind of saying was like what do I really know what do we really what do I really know what do we really what do I really know what do we really know who who knows it's a kind of know who who knows it's a kind of know who who knows it's a kind of nonchalant kind of nonchalant kind of nonchalant kind of nonchalant kind of nonchalant kind of nonchalant kind of view of life and So um at what one what view of life and So um at what one what view of life and So um at what one what one scholar calls imminent contentment one scholar calls imminent contentment one scholar calls imminent contentment like just tend to your garden like just tend to your garden like just tend to your garden um Montaigne was the inventor of the um Montaigne was the inventor of the um Montaigne was the inventor of the modern essay and it's this kind of this modern essay and it's this kind of this modern essay and it's this kind of this well what's the essay about it's well well what's the essay about it's well well what's the essay about it's well kind of my thoughts and and you can you kind of my thoughts and and you can you kind of my thoughts and and you can you can kind of see Montaigne by the way in can kind of see Montaigne by the way in can kind of see Montaigne by the way in a lot of things kind of like you do you a lot of things kind of like you do you a lot of things kind of like you do you you know it's kind of an early you know it's kind of an early you know it's kind of an early protoversion of you do you kind of protoversion of you do you kind of protoversion of you do you kind of philosophy um and so he's dealing with philosophy um and so he's dealing with philosophy um and so he's dealing with that. He's really concerned about that that. He's really concerned about that that. He's really concerned about that because it's leading people to not because it's leading people to not because it's leading people to not really take God in the Christian life really take God in the Christian life really take God in the Christian life serious. Even like nominal Christianity serious. Even like nominal Christianity serious. Even like nominal Christianity or the kind of his fear of people who

or the kind of his fear of people who or the kind of his fear of people who were certain people were just concerned were certain people were just concerned were certain people were just concerned with gambling and um playing cards and with gambling and um playing cards and with gambling and um playing cards and hunting and so he wants to address them. hunting and so he wants to address them. hunting and so he wants to address them. But then you also have somebody else who But then you also have somebody else who But then you also have somebody else who was disturbed by Montaigne which was was disturbed by Montaigne which was was disturbed by Montaigne which was Renee Deart. And Renee Deort was of Renee Deart. And Renee Deort was of Renee Deart. And Renee Deort was of course after a kind of certainty and he course after a kind of certainty and he course after a kind of certainty and he thought he could get it through a kind thought he could get it through a kind thought he could get it through a kind of systematic doubting. of systematic doubting. of systematic doubting. And so uh Pascal uh probably will And so uh Pascal uh probably will And so uh Pascal uh probably will someone's not going to like this but someone's not going to like this but someone's not going to like this but Pascal takes a third way. Okay. And he Pascal takes a third way. Okay. And he Pascal takes a third way. Okay. And he takes it and he's actually takes and he takes it and he's actually takes and he takes it and he's actually takes and he says well um Deart isn't being rational says well um Deart isn't being rational says well um Deart isn't being rational enough about his rationality. We're not enough about his rationality. We're not enough about his rationality. We're not this just kind of brains working our way this just kind of brains working our way this just kind of brains working our way through things. And uh and so he takes through things. And uh and so he takes through things. And uh and so he takes up actually some of Montaigne's kind of up actually some of Montaigne's kind of up actually some of Montaigne's kind of arguments and he applies them against arguments and he applies them against arguments and he applies them against Deart. But then he he um he basically Deart. But then he he um he basically Deart. But then he he um he basically calls Montaigne's bluff and he says calls Montaigne's bluff and he says calls Montaigne's bluff and he says we're not the type of creatures that can we're not the type of creatures that can we're not the type of creatures that can live like that. We're not simply kind live like that. We're not simply kind live like that. We're not simply kind of, you know, my dog Otis is very of, you know, my dog Otis is very of, you know, my dog Otis is very content in his dogness, right? He content in his dogness, right? He content in his dogness, right? He doesn't seem to be uh contemplating the doesn't seem to be uh contemplating the doesn't seem to be uh contemplating the deeper things of life. He doesn't deeper things of life. He doesn't deeper things of life. He doesn't foresee his death and then is kind of foresee his death and then is kind of foresee his death and then is kind of living in light of trying to cover that living in light of trying to cover that living in light of trying to cover that up or trying to cope with that, up or trying to cope with that, up or trying to cope with that, you know, and so that's not but but it you know, and so that's not but but it you know, and so that's not but but it seems that what Montaigne was calling seems that what Montaigne was calling seems that what Montaigne was calling for is a kind of well don't don't you

for is a kind of well don't don't you for is a kind of well don't don't you know just don't really think about know just don't really think about know just don't really think about death. Don't really think about just death. Don't really think about just death. Don't really think about just live your life. And he says we're not live your life. And he says we're not live your life. And he says we're not that kind of creature and we'll grow that kind of creature and we'll grow that kind of creature and we'll grow more and more restless when we try to do more and more restless when we try to do more and more restless when we try to do that. And I and I think um that's that. And I and I think um that's that. And I and I think um that's bearing out in a many ways kind of in bearing out in a many ways kind of in bearing out in a many ways kind of in today's culture where people go from today's culture where people go from today's culture where people go from kind of streaming to very quickly kind of streaming to very quickly kind of streaming to very quickly protesting to finding their gods and protesting to finding their gods and protesting to finding their gods and religion and politics and other things. religion and politics and other things. religion and politics and other things. So I think he's such a um incredible So I think he's such a um incredible So I think he's such a um incredible kind of observer of human nature and kind of observer of human nature and kind of observer of human nature and then kind of it's just a great example then kind of it's just a great example then kind of it's just a great example of engaging these dominant strands of of engaging these dominant strands of of engaging these dominant strands of thought in his own day and then has a thought in his own day and then has a thought in his own day and then has a lot of fruit for us today. lot of fruit for us today. lot of fruit for us today. >> Yeah. For some of you who've taken my >> Yeah. For some of you who've taken my >> Yeah. For some of you who've taken my course on on cultural apologetics, you course on on cultural apologetics, you course on on cultural apologetics, you know that even as I've developed that know that even as I've developed that know that even as I've developed that course over the years, I was not course over the years, I was not course over the years, I was not particularly familiar with Montaigne. I particularly familiar with Montaigne. I particularly familiar with Montaigne. I didn't have your academic uh study didn't have your academic uh study didn't have your academic uh study either one of you there to do that. and either one of you there to do that. and either one of you there to do that. and understanding more about Montaigne was understanding more about Montaigne was understanding more about Montaigne was the key to unlocking the own way that I the key to unlocking the own way that I the key to unlocking the own way that I was narrating intellectual history over was narrating intellectual history over was narrating intellectual history over the last 500 years because I think he's the last 500 years because I think he's the last 500 years because I think he's one of the more contemporary feeling one of the more contemporary feeling one of the more contemporary feeling figures that you can very clearly see figures that you can very clearly see figures that you can very clearly see his influence with people who like me his influence with people who like me his influence with people who like me were not very familiar with Montaigne were not very familiar with Montaigne were not very familiar with Montaigne there. So Chris, any other apologists there. So Chris, any other apologists there. So Chris, any other apologists who come to mind uh for you in history who come to mind uh for you in history who come to mind uh for you in history that you that you that you >> Absolutely. And how about a a a grid for >> Absolutely. And how about a a a grid for >> Absolutely. And how about a a a grid for making sure that we um consume making sure that we um consume making sure that we um consume apologetics in a in a structured way apologetics in a in a structured way apologetics in a in a structured way with with three levels. So the the

with with three levels. So the the with with three levels. So the the bottom, it could be the top level. The bottom, it could be the top level. The bottom, it could be the top level. The order doesn't matter. It's um podcasts, order doesn't matter. It's um podcasts, order doesn't matter. It's um podcasts, sort of quick reactions to things that sort of quick reactions to things that sort of quick reactions to things that are happening in the world. Um what are happening in the world. Um what are happening in the world. Um what should I think about the thing that was should I think about the thing that was should I think about the thing that was on the news yesterday? Um it's really on the news yesterday? Um it's really on the news yesterday? Um it's really really helpful. So, four quick podcasts really helpful. So, four quick podcasts really helpful. So, four quick podcasts that if you're not aware of these that that if you're not aware of these that that if you're not aware of these that they might be worth listening to. they might be worth listening to. they might be worth listening to. Rebecca McLaughlin has one, Confronting Rebecca McLaughlin has one, Confronting Rebecca McLaughlin has one, Confronting Christianity. Uh Veron Pierre has a Christianity. Uh Veron Pierre has a Christianity. Uh Veron Pierre has a great podcast. Uh Glenn Scrivener, uh great podcast. Uh Glenn Scrivener, uh great podcast. Uh Glenn Scrivener, uh Gavin Nortland. Uh four great ways of Gavin Nortland. Uh four great ways of Gavin Nortland. Uh four great ways of just getting Christian takes on what's just getting Christian takes on what's just getting Christian takes on what's happening right now. That's level one. happening right now. That's level one. happening right now. That's level one. Uh level two is your sort of between 100 Uh level two is your sort of between 100 Uh level two is your sort of between 100 and 200page books. Um you know, they're and 200page books. Um you know, they're and 200page books. Um you know, they're not popcorn, but but they're not not popcorn, but but they're not not popcorn, but but they're not academic level books. So a lot of CS academic level books. So a lot of CS academic level books. So a lot of CS Lewis would come uh in this uh area bit Lewis would come uh in this uh area bit Lewis would come uh in this uh area bit bit of John Sto uh someone like that. Um bit of John Sto uh someone like that. Um bit of John Sto uh someone like that. Um and then I I think certainly for for and then I I think certainly for for and then I I think certainly for for people in this audience who are studying people in this audience who are studying people in this audience who are studying you know as a full-time occupation at you know as a full-time occupation at you know as a full-time occupation at the moment you you should also be the moment you you should also be the moment you you should also be thinking how am I going to stretch thinking how am I going to stretch thinking how am I going to stretch myself apologetically? What what books myself apologetically? What what books myself apologetically? What what books am I going to drop into a third level am I going to drop into a third level am I going to drop into a third level that that are actually quite hard but that that are actually quite hard but that that are actually quite hard but incredibly rewarding? So, in addition to incredibly rewarding? So, in addition to incredibly rewarding? So, in addition to City of God, which I've already banged City of God, which I've already banged City of God, which I've already banged on about, uh, in this podcast, um, how on about, uh, in this podcast, um, how on about, uh, in this podcast, um, how about some John Frame, one of his big about some John Frame, one of his big about some John Frame, one of his big volumes, uh, doctrine of the the word of volumes, uh, doctrine of the the word of volumes, uh, doctrine of the the word of God or or doctrine of God? Um, or how God or or doctrine of God? Um, or how God or or doctrine of God? Um, or how about, uh, some Puritan uh, writing, a about, uh, some Puritan uh, writing, a about, uh, some Puritan uh, writing, a little bit harder, uh, but incredibly little bit harder, uh, but incredibly little bit harder, uh, but incredibly nourishing. And I think if we can think

nourishing. And I think if we can think nourishing. And I think if we can think of our apologetics consumption on those of our apologetics consumption on those of our apologetics consumption on those three levels and make sure that we're three levels and make sure that we're three levels and make sure that we're doing some of that within say a doing some of that within say a doing some of that within say a three-month period uh some of each of three-month period uh some of each of three-month period uh some of each of those that'll be a really healthy way uh those that'll be a really healthy way uh those that'll be a really healthy way uh to be uh growing in wisdom. I think a to be uh growing in wisdom. I think a to be uh growing in wisdom. I think a lot of people Chris would have think lot of people Chris would have think lot of people Chris would have think thought of the Puritans as apologists. thought of the Puritans as apologists. thought of the Puritans as apologists. But if you understand apologetics the But if you understand apologetics the But if you understand apologetics the way that Josh was just describing and way that Josh was just describing and way that Josh was just describing and then if you understand the way that it then if you understand the way that it then if you understand the way that it was conducted by Tim Keller who was was conducted by Tim Keller who was was conducted by Tim Keller who was deeply framed by the Puritans, deeply framed by the Puritans, deeply framed by the Puritans, understanding this is the application of understanding this is the application of understanding this is the application of timeless wisdom to weary wounded souls timeless wisdom to weary wounded souls timeless wisdom to weary wounded souls for today. So it's a form of sort of for today. So it's a form of sort of for today. So it's a form of sort of pastoral care and we know that the pastoral care and we know that the pastoral care and we know that the Puritans did that very well. All right, Puritans did that very well. All right, Puritans did that very well. All right, let's take a couple questions. So, let's let's take a couple questions. So, let's let's take a couple questions. So, let's open it up. Okay, let's start down here. open it up. Okay, let's start down here. open it up. Okay, let's start down here. >> Hi, my name is KJ Pew. I'm a pastor in >> Hi, my name is KJ Pew. I'm a pastor in >> Hi, my name is KJ Pew. I'm a pastor in Tuscaloosa and I have a serious question Tuscaloosa and I have a serious question Tuscaloosa and I have a serious question and a sentimental question. and a sentimental question. and a sentimental question. >> Uh, I'm speaking to a group of students >> Uh, I'm speaking to a group of students >> Uh, I'm speaking to a group of students at the University of Alabama tonight and at the University of Alabama tonight and at the University of Alabama tonight and um uh on how to engage skeptics and I'm um uh on how to engage skeptics and I'm um uh on how to engage skeptics and I'm going to talk about outnating.

going to talk about outnating. going to talk about outnating. What should I say to them about What should I say to them about What should I say to them about outnating? Do my work for me. What outnating? Do my work for me. What outnating? Do my work for me. What should I say? That's my serious should I say? That's my serious should I say? That's my serious question. Uh sentimental question. Uh, I question. Uh sentimental question. Uh, I question. Uh sentimental question. Uh, I lived for three years in North lived for three years in North lived for three years in North Yorkshire. What do you miss about Yorkshire. What do you miss about Yorkshire. What do you miss about Yorkshire, Chris? >> Elad, that's a it's a lovely question. >> Elad, that's a it's a lovely question. That is That is That is um I I I think my answer to both of your um I I I think my answer to both of your um I I I think my answer to both of your questions is very similar, strangely. questions is very similar, strangely. questions is very similar, strangely. Um, Um, Um, how's he going to do this? how's he going to do this? how's he going to do this? Um, because in both cases, it's it's the Um, because in both cases, it's it's the Um, because in both cases, it's it's the people, isn't it? Um, what I miss most people, isn't it? Um, what I miss most people, isn't it? Um, what I miss most about Yorkshire is is the lovely people about Yorkshire is is the lovely people about Yorkshire is is the lovely people uh of Yorkshire. Um, you know, with uh of Yorkshire. Um, you know, with uh of Yorkshire. Um, you know, with their particular views of the world, my their particular views of the world, my their particular views of the world, my particular view of the world, uh, particular view of the world, uh, particular view of the world, uh, particular history with the coal mines particular history with the coal mines particular history with the coal mines and so forth. It's it's a shared story. and so forth. It's it's a shared story. and so forth. It's it's a shared story. Um, and it's, you know, if you grown up Um, and it's, you know, if you grown up Um, and it's, you know, if you grown up in that part of the world, it's it's a in that part of the world, it's it's a in that part of the world, it's it's a story to which you have a lot of story to which you have a lot of story to which you have a lot of affection when you love going back. Um affection when you love going back. Um affection when you love going back. Um and I I in terms of outnating I think and I I in terms of outnating I think and I I in terms of outnating I think that if we don't start with the the that if we don't start with the the that if we don't start with the the person or the people in front of us love person or the people in front of us love person or the people in front of us love that person and want to know what is that person and want to know what is that person and want to know what is their story. So before we launch upon their story. So before we launch upon their story. So before we launch upon them, you know, with let me tell you the them, you know, with let me tell you the them, you know, with let me tell you the 10 ways you're wrong. Um you know um 10 ways you're wrong. Um you know um 10 ways you're wrong. Um you know um just be genuinely interested in tell me just be genuinely interested in tell me just be genuinely interested in tell me about how you see the world. What's your about how you see the world. What's your about how you see the world. What's your story? Um because I think another part story? Um because I think another part story? Um because I think another part of that is that often people's own views

of that is that often people's own views of that is that often people's own views of the world are not apparent to of the world are not apparent to of the world are not apparent to themselves. Especially if you live as themselves. Especially if you live as themselves. Especially if you live as part of the dominant culture. Like if part of the dominant culture. Like if part of the dominant culture. Like if you're part of the hegemonic way of you're part of the hegemonic way of you're part of the hegemonic way of seeing the world, you're never told that seeing the world, you're never told that seeing the world, you're never told that your way of seeing the world is actually your way of seeing the world is actually your way of seeing the world is actually a way among many. You just think it's a way among many. You just think it's a way among many. You just think it's common sense. It's very interesting to common sense. It's very interesting to common sense. It's very interesting to see how that phrase is used, isn't it? see how that phrase is used, isn't it? see how that phrase is used, isn't it? That term common sense. Um you think the That term common sense. Um you think the That term common sense. Um you think the way I see the world is just common way I see the world is just common way I see the world is just common sense. Like those Christians over there, sense. Like those Christians over there, sense. Like those Christians over there, they're weird. They have a view of the they're weird. They have a view of the they're weird. They have a view of the world but I don't just operate with world but I don't just operate with world but I don't just operate with common sense. So part of the common sense. So part of the common sense. So part of the way of helping people is to help people way of helping people is to help people way of helping people is to help people to to name and to make visible their own to to name and to make visible their own to to name and to make visible their own view of the world. KJ like what how do view of the world. KJ like what how do view of the world. KJ like what how do what is the good life? I mean you what is the good life? I mean you what is the good life? I mean you wouldn't necessarily put it in those wouldn't necessarily put it in those wouldn't necessarily put it in those philosophical terms but you know tell me philosophical terms but you know tell me philosophical terms but you know tell me what would be an ideal day for you? How what would be an ideal day for you? How what would be an ideal day for you? How would you spend it? You know and and would you spend it? You know and and would you spend it? You know and and smile along with them feel your way into smile along with them feel your way into smile along with them feel your way into that view of the world. And then when that view of the world. And then when that view of the world. And then when that's on the table, when the person I that's on the table, when the person I that's on the table, when the person I is understanding and articulating this is understanding and articulating this is understanding and articulating this is my view of the good life, this is my is my view of the good life, this is my is my view of the good life, this is my sense of what's wrong with the world, sense of what's wrong with the world, sense of what's wrong with the world, you'll be in a much better position to you'll be in a much better position to you'll be in a much better position to to compare that with, well, let's look to compare that with, well, let's look to compare that with, well, let's look at the gospel. Let's look at the two at the gospel. Let's look at the two at the gospel. Let's look at the two stories alongside each other. But unless stories alongside each other. But unless stories alongside each other. But unless you've done the work of of just you've done the work of of just you've done the work of of just listening and asking curious questions, listening and asking curious questions, listening and asking curious questions, um that the person may not even be aware um that the person may not even be aware um that the person may not even be aware that they've got a view. Um that's why that they've got a view. Um that's why that they've got a view. Um that's why in culture politics here the first in culture politics here the first in culture politics here the first exercise that I assign is a personal exercise that I assign is a personal exercise that I assign is a personal narrative. Learning the process of narrative. Learning the process of narrative. Learning the process of seeing yourself from the outside because seeing yourself from the outside because seeing yourself from the outside because that's effective in any kind of that's effective in any kind of that's effective in any kind of ministry. Every missionary has to do ministry. Every missionary has to do ministry. Every missionary has to do that. But learning to do that in our own

that. But learning to do that in our own that. But learning to do that in our own context and teaching others to do that context and teaching others to do that context and teaching others to do that likewise including in evangelism is very likewise including in evangelism is very likewise including in evangelism is very important. I I think I just I just would important. I I think I just I just would important. I I think I just I just would say say say >> there's something about when you're >> there's something about when you're >> there's something about when you're giving a talk giving a talk giving a talk and you describe a reality that people and you describe a reality that people and you describe a reality that people are living in are living in are living in that's like oh oh my goodness that and that's like oh oh my goodness that and that's like oh oh my goodness that and and and they haven't even connected the and and they haven't even connected the and and they haven't even connected the dots of why they're anxious or why dots of why they're anxious or why dots of why they're anxious or why they're angry even before you get to the they're angry even before you get to the they're angry even before you get to the gospel. There's there's something about gospel. There's there's something about gospel. There's there's something about that moment when they're think this that moment when they're think this that moment when they're think this person's been reading my mail, person's been reading my mail, person's been reading my mail, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And they just ex I mean maybe even >> And they just ex I mean maybe even >> And they just ex I mean maybe even reading mail I hadn't even fully read reading mail I hadn't even fully read reading mail I hadn't even fully read yet. And then you say and so this this yet. And then you say and so this this yet. And then you say and so this this is why you feel this. This is maybe why is why you feel this. This is maybe why is why you feel this. This is maybe why you're feeling anxious or angry or you're feeling anxious or angry or you're feeling anxious or angry or lonely. Um and they hadn't connected the lonely. Um and they hadn't connected the lonely. Um and they hadn't connected the dots and said this is the good news of dots and said this is the good news of dots and said this is the good news of the gospel. the gospel. the gospel. Christ died for you. you can stop trying Christ died for you. you can stop trying Christ died for you. you can stop trying to achieve your way. You can stop trying to achieve your way. You can stop trying to achieve your way. You can stop trying to control your way to kind of create to control your way to kind of create to control your way to kind of create some kind of, you know, safety or cosmic some kind of, you know, safety or cosmic some kind of, you know, safety or cosmic identity and then you drop gospel in and identity and then you drop gospel in and identity and then you drop gospel in and it's like I just heard it for the first it's like I just heard it for the first it's like I just heard it for the first time. No, you've heard the gospel all time. No, you've heard the gospel all time. No, you've heard the gospel all your life but your life but your life but >> but it just now has mapped onto your >> but it just now has mapped onto your >> but it just now has mapped onto your reality.

reality. reality. >> Heard it but not received it. >> Heard it but not received it. >> Heard it but not received it. >> Yeah. And I and I think that that's >> Yeah. And I and I think that that's >> Yeah. And I and I think that that's exactly right. I think one time, you exactly right. I think one time, you exactly right. I think one time, you know, you start reading all this stuff know, you start reading all this stuff know, you start reading all this stuff and all the stuff you're reading is and all the stuff you're reading is and all the stuff you're reading is really to help you either to be able to really to help you either to be able to really to help you either to be able to have that conversation, not so you tell have that conversation, not so you tell have that conversation, not so you tell them, but you're better kind of your them, but you're better kind of your them, but you're better kind of your your ears are better kind of perked up your ears are better kind of perked up your ears are better kind of perked up to to hear what they're saying and then to to hear what they're saying and then to to hear what they're saying and then you know the cultural air they're you know the cultural air they're you know the cultural air they're breathing so you can help them connect breathing so you can help them connect breathing so you can help them connect the dots for them. Or if you're in front the dots for them. Or if you're in front the dots for them. Or if you're in front of people with humility, you can say of people with humility, you can say of people with humility, you can say maybe this is what's going on. And I maybe this is what's going on. And I maybe this is what's going on. And I think that's where cultural exesus think that's where cultural exesus think that's where cultural exesus really helps you. Not so we can quote really helps you. Not so we can quote really helps you. Not so we can quote Taylor and everybody else, but so we can Taylor and everybody else, but so we can Taylor and everybody else, but so we can actually minister if people actually minister if people actually minister if people >> also sounds like good counseling. >> also sounds like good counseling. >> also sounds like good counseling. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Too bad. >> Too bad. >> Too bad. >> Guys, uh a questions maybe related for >> Guys, uh a questions maybe related for >> Guys, uh a questions maybe related for all three of you. Um for ministers and all three of you. Um for ministers and all three of you. Um for ministers and future ministers in the room, you know, future ministers in the room, you know, future ministers in the room, you know, Dr. Chaturro, I know you care about Dr. Chaturro, I know you care about Dr. Chaturro, I know you care about classical apologetics, about the facts. classical apologetics, about the facts. classical apologetics, about the facts. How do we balance like you know asking How do we balance like you know asking How do we balance like you know asking what's you know behind these deeper what's you know behind these deeper what's you know behind these deeper desires of the heart while still taking desires of the heart while still taking desires of the heart while still taking questions and facts seriously. I work questions and facts seriously. I work questions and facts seriously. I work with some college students a good bit at with some college students a good bit at with some college students a good bit at my church and we had like a student who my church and we had like a student who my church and we had like a student who was having a lot of uh uh doubts and was having a lot of uh uh doubts and was having a lot of uh uh doubts and thinking about joining doing Catholicism thinking about joining doing Catholicism thinking about joining doing Catholicism and you know there's a trend right now and you know there's a trend right now and you know there's a trend right now people young men joining Catholicism and people young men joining Catholicism and people young men joining Catholicism and orthodoxy related to like masculinity.

orthodoxy related to like masculinity. orthodoxy related to like masculinity. So he would talk to people and there was So he would talk to people and there was So he would talk to people and there was always this you know temptation to say always this you know temptation to say always this you know temptation to say well what are you really asking and he well what are you really asking and he well what are you really asking and he was like I'm asking about these these was like I'm asking about these these was like I'm asking about these these doctrinal issues you know so then doctrinal issues you know so then doctrinal issues you know so then >> when you know we he what helped him a >> when you know we he what helped him a >> when you know we he what helped him a lot is kind of the more nitty-gritty lot is kind of the more nitty-gritty lot is kind of the more nitty-gritty talking about those details that really talking about those details that really talking about those details that really answered a lot of his questions but answered a lot of his questions but answered a lot of his questions but there was like a frustration he felt there was like a frustration he felt there was like a frustration he felt sometimes of like you know and I think sometimes of like you know and I think sometimes of like you know and I think you could obviously relate this to you could obviously relate this to you could obviously relate this to doubts about God and apologetics and doubts about God and apologetics and doubts about God and apologetics and stuff of like you know how do we balance stuff of like you know how do we balance stuff of like you know how do we balance like getting behind and like that the like getting behind and like that the like getting behind and like that the matters of the heart while still those matters of the heart while still those matters of the heart while still those sort of you know sort of you know sort of you know >> like the facts and taking the questions >> like the facts and taking the questions >> like the facts and taking the questions seriously. seriously. seriously. >> Yeah. And thanks and I'll I'll try to be >> Yeah. And thanks and I'll I'll try to be >> Yeah. And thanks and I'll I'll try to be real quick and I um just because I know real quick and I um just because I know real quick and I um just because I know we have other questions and these guys we have other questions and these guys we have other questions and these guys will want to say something but um I'm will want to say something but um I'm will want to say something but um I'm glad you asked that because you get all glad you asked that because you get all glad you asked that because you get all that like if you take me you're going to that like if you take me you're going to that like if you take me you're going to get that too. I think the um get that too. I think the um get that too. I think the um the part of the issue is if people have the part of the issue is if people have the part of the issue is if people have this mis kind of idea of how of how this mis kind of idea of how of how this mis kind of idea of how of how rationality works or how Christianity rationality works or how Christianity rationality works or how Christianity works. It's like if you can convince me works. It's like if you can convince me works. It's like if you can convince me with 100% certainty and so like the with 100% certainty and so like the with 100% certainty and so like the thresh and so then and I just I'm just thresh and so then and I just I'm just thresh and so then and I just I'm just this kind of logic machine and then you this kind of logic machine and then you this kind of logic machine and then you you throw out all the facts and it's you throw out all the facts and it's you throw out all the facts and it's like I'm still not convinced. You've like I'm still not convinced. You've like I'm still not convinced. You've kind of seated the playing field in kind of seated the playing field in kind of seated the playing field in other words, you know. So, I'm all for other words, you know. So, I'm all for other words, you know. So, I'm all for kind of arguments for the resurrection.

kind of arguments for the resurrection. kind of arguments for the resurrection. I'm all for I think, you know, God is I'm all for I think, you know, God is I'm all for I think, you know, God is the best explanation for for so many the best explanation for for so many the best explanation for for so many things we see in the natural world. And things we see in the natural world. And things we see in the natural world. And using those, I think, can be really using those, I think, can be really using those, I think, can be really helpful. It's it's really a matter to go helpful. It's it's really a matter to go helpful. It's it's really a matter to go back to kind of the previous part of of back to kind of the previous part of of back to kind of the previous part of of prudence and wisdom. And I think if prudence and wisdom. And I think if prudence and wisdom. And I think if you're always skirting like kind of you're always skirting like kind of you're always skirting like kind of those types of things with, well, tell those types of things with, well, tell those types of things with, well, tell me what you're really after, then it me what you're really after, then it me what you're really after, then it you're disrespecting that person, right? you're disrespecting that person, right? you're disrespecting that person, right? like you're saying, well, let me just like you're saying, well, let me just like you're saying, well, let me just get under. Well, you can start off by get under. Well, you can start off by get under. Well, you can start off by saying this is how I'd answer that saying this is how I'd answer that saying this is how I'd answer that question, but you sometimes need to do a question, but you sometimes need to do a question, but you sometimes need to do a little bit of epistemological work. little bit of epistemological work. little bit of epistemological work. Don't use that word, but for most Don't use that word, but for most Don't use that word, but for most people, but you've got to do some work people, but you've got to do some work people, but you've got to do some work so they're not thinking Christianity so they're not thinking Christianity so they're not thinking Christianity works um like, okay, you just you just works um like, okay, you just you just works um like, okay, you just you just pile up evidence and then you balance it pile up evidence and then you balance it pile up evidence and then you balance it out and we'll put God on the dock. Um out and we'll put God on the dock. Um out and we'll put God on the dock. Um that that's not how this this thing that that's not how this this thing that that's not how this this thing goes. And I think if we if if we don't goes. And I think if we if if we don't goes. And I think if we if if we don't keep that in mind, then we can kind of keep that in mind, then we can kind of keep that in mind, then we can kind of fall in that trap. And because it fall in that trap. And because it fall in that trap. And because it sometimes has gone that way, there can sometimes has gone that way, there can sometimes has gone that way, there can be this kind of overreaction the other be this kind of overreaction the other be this kind of overreaction the other way. But for the deeper way to kind of way. But for the deeper way to kind of way. But for the deeper way to kind of avoid that, avoid that, avoid that, you know, you know, you know, come join me in apologetics class. We'll come join me in apologetics class. We'll come join me in apologetics class. We'll talk more about it.

talk more about it. talk more about it. I I think Jacob that that the the I I think Jacob that that the the I I think Jacob that that the the scriptures set a sort of a framework, scriptures set a sort of a framework, scriptures set a sort of a framework, don't they, for this that that there's don't they, for this that that there's don't they, for this that that there's there's a diversity of approaches to the there's a diversity of approaches to the there's a diversity of approaches to the truth of God in the scriptures. So, you truth of God in the scriptures. So, you truth of God in the scriptures. So, you know, some of the New Testament letters know, some of the New Testament letters know, some of the New Testament letters are very architecturally precise in the are very architecturally precise in the are very architecturally precise in the way that they argue from premise to way that they argue from premise to way that they argue from premise to conclusion about God. And then you've conclusion about God. And then you've conclusion about God. And then you've got the Psalms and then you've got the got the Psalms and then you've got the got the Psalms and then you've got the wisdom literature and the Old Testament wisdom literature and the Old Testament wisdom literature and the Old Testament narratives. And some people will be narratives. And some people will be narratives. And some people will be drawn more naturally to one of those drawn more naturally to one of those drawn more naturally to one of those modes of engaging with God. Like it modes of engaging with God. Like it modes of engaging with God. Like it sounds that the person you're speaking sounds that the person you're speaking sounds that the person you're speaking with, Jacob, is very sort of New with, Jacob, is very sort of New with, Jacob, is very sort of New Testament letterish. You know, I want I Testament letterish. You know, I want I Testament letterish. You know, I want I want the cold hard argument, which is want the cold hard argument, which is want the cold hard argument, which is great. So, you drop into the Bible at great. So, you drop into the Bible at great. So, you drop into the Bible at that point. Let's study whatever it is, that point. Let's study whatever it is, that point. Let's study whatever it is, Galatians together, and and think about Galatians together, and and think about Galatians together, and and think about Catholicism or whatever they're trying Catholicism or whatever they're trying Catholicism or whatever they're trying to go through in that context. But if to go through in that context. But if to go through in that context. But if that person only ever reads Galatians that person only ever reads Galatians that person only ever reads Galatians and never casts an eye over the Psalms and never casts an eye over the Psalms and never casts an eye over the Psalms or Chronicles or whatever, then over or Chronicles or whatever, then over or Chronicles or whatever, then over time you would begin to think there's time you would begin to think there's time you would begin to think there's something wrong here. So there's a something wrong here. So there's a something wrong here. So there's a difference between dropping into the difference between dropping into the difference between dropping into the Bible at one point, you know, some Bible at one point, you know, some Bible at one point, you know, some people are converted through the book of people are converted through the book of people are converted through the book of Ecclesiastes cuz that's just where Ecclesiastes cuz that's just where Ecclesiastes cuz that's just where they're at. Um but if they only ever they're at. Um but if they only ever they're at. Um but if they only ever read Ecclesiastes, we're going to say read Ecclesiastes, we're going to say read Ecclesiastes, we're going to say you're missing out on so much. And so you're missing out on so much. And so you're missing out on so much. And so there's a difference between where you there's a difference between where you there's a difference between where you drop in or the keyhole you go through drop in or the keyhole you go through drop in or the keyhole you go through and whether you then broaden out to take and whether you then broaden out to take and whether you then broaden out to take on other biblical modes of engaging with on other biblical modes of engaging with on other biblical modes of engaging with God. And if you don't, I think you want

God. And if you don't, I think you want God. And if you don't, I think you want to be coming alongside that person over to be coming alongside that person over to be coming alongside that person over time and saying, you know, there's time and saying, you know, there's time and saying, you know, there's there's more Bible than the epistles. there's more Bible than the epistles. there's more Bible than the epistles. >> I'm have to close on this one. One other >> I'm have to close on this one. One other >> I'm have to close on this one. One other point there. Um the Molly Woreram from point there. Um the Molly Woreram from point there. Um the Molly Woreram from the University of North Carolina Chapel the University of North Carolina Chapel the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill shared her testimony on this Hill shared her testimony on this Hill shared her testimony on this Gospelbound podcast and she brought Gospelbound podcast and she brought Gospelbound podcast and she brought together three different elements. One together three different elements. One together three different elements. One was JD Greer's very straightforward was JD Greer's very straightforward was JD Greer's very straightforward evangelistic appeal. You need to believe evangelistic appeal. You need to believe evangelistic appeal. You need to believe in Christ. Then there was anti anti in Christ. Then there was anti anti in Christ. Then there was anti anti Wright's book being recommended by Tim Wright's book being recommended by Tim Wright's book being recommended by Tim Keller on the resurrection. Just study Keller on the resurrection. Just study Keller on the resurrection. Just study the facts. Then there was C. Lewis's the facts. Then there was C. Lewis's the facts. Then there was C. Lewis's space trilogy, which would typically space trilogy, which would typically space trilogy, which would typically fall a little bit more into the cultural fall a little bit more into the cultural fall a little bit more into the cultural apologetics part of that. They're apologetics part of that. They're apologetics part of that. They're they're not competing against each they're not competing against each they're not competing against each other. Those are complimentary. It's other. Those are complimentary. It's other. Those are complimentary. It's just a matter of of disciplehip there. just a matter of of disciplehip there. just a matter of of disciplehip there. So, and I would also to to that person, So, and I would also to to that person, So, and I would also to to that person, you know, Gavin Ortland really helpful you know, Gavin Ortland really helpful you know, Gavin Ortland really helpful at that front. All right. Thanks for at that front. All right. Thanks for at that front. All right. Thanks for joining me for this episode of Gospel joining me for this episode of Gospel joining me for this episode of Gospel Band. Please thank my guests. Band. Please thank my guests. Band. Please thank my guests. Bye.

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