Christianity: Good, True, and Beautiful?

Good afternoon. Good afternoon. You guys may have first seen in your You guys may have first seen in your You guys may have first seen in your program this was a session a session program this was a session a session program this was a session a session with me and Rachel a so-called duo. with me and Rachel a so-called duo. with me and Rachel a so-called duo. Uh but after thinking through the kinds Uh but after thinking through the kinds Uh but after thinking through the kinds of questions that we were going to be of questions that we were going to be of questions that we were going to be working through in this session, we working through in this session, we working through in this session, we realized that Rachel and I standing up realized that Rachel and I standing up realized that Rachel and I standing up and kind of saying, "So Rachel, what do and kind of saying, "So Rachel, what do and kind of saying, "So Rachel, what do you think about this?" "I don't know you think about this?" "I don't know you think about this?" "I don't know Rebecca, what do you think about that?" Rebecca, what do you think about that?" Rebecca, what do you think about that?" Probably wasn't going to bring out the Probably wasn't going to bring out the Probably wasn't going to bring out the best in us. Um and we thought to make best in us. Um and we thought to make best in us. Um and we thought to make the our combination even more dangerous, the our combination even more dangerous, the our combination even more dangerous, we would add in one of our favorite we would add in one of our favorite we would add in one of our favorite people. people. people. >> This is called an upgrade. >> This is called an upgrade. >> This is called an upgrade. >> Mary Wilson Hannah. >> Mary Wilson Hannah. >> Mary Wilson Hannah. You know, Rachel had true covered, I had You know, Rachel had true covered, I had You know, Rachel had true covered, I had good covered, so we needed beautiful and good covered, so we needed beautiful and good covered, so we needed beautiful and here's here's Mary um to help us. So, here's here's Mary um to help us. So, here's here's Mary um to help us. So, Mary's going to be stewarding and Mary's going to be stewarding and Mary's going to be stewarding and steering this conversation. steering this conversation. steering this conversation. But there are But there are But there are two things that I think both Rachel and two things that I think both Rachel and two things that I think both Rachel and I would want you to take away if nothing I would want you to take away if nothing I would want you to take away if nothing else. Number one, all of these questions else. Number one, all of these questions else. Number one, all of these questions come back to the gospel. come back to the gospel. come back to the gospel. And number two, we need to be more And number two, we need to be more And number two, we need to be more biblical and not less. biblical and not less. biblical and not less. So, if you hear us saying anything apart So, if you hear us saying anything apart So, if you hear us saying anything apart from that in this session, ignore it. from that in this session, ignore it. from that in this session, ignore it. And if you forget every other word we And if you forget every other word we And if you forget every other word we said in this session, please remember said in this session, please remember said in this session, please remember those two things. This is all about the those two things. This is all about the those two things. This is all about the gospel.

gospel. gospel. And we need to be more biblical not And we need to be more biblical not And we need to be more biblical not less. less. less. Over to you, Mary. Over to you, Mary. Over to you, Mary. >> Thank you. I think I join with all of >> Thank you. I think I join with all of >> Thank you. I think I join with all of you in just expressing my gratitude for you in just expressing my gratitude for you in just expressing my gratitude for the two of you. That the fact that you the two of you. That the fact that you the two of you. That the fact that you begin that way and tell us that's the begin that way and tell us that's the begin that way and tell us that's the major takeaway, that is such a joy. We major takeaway, that is such a joy. We major takeaway, that is such a joy. We know that you're authentic in that and know that you're authentic in that and know that you're authentic in that and that's the the uh that's the the uh that's the the uh drumbeat of your life. We're grateful. drumbeat of your life. We're grateful. drumbeat of your life. We're grateful. Rachel, I'd love to start with you. Last Rachel, I'd love to start with you. Last Rachel, I'd love to start with you. Last night you two graciously joined a group night you two graciously joined a group night you two graciously joined a group of local church sisters of mine and of local church sisters of mine and of local church sisters of mine and shared a bit of your story and your shared a bit of your story and your shared a bit of your story and your current life with Christ. And current life with Christ. And current life with Christ. And interestingly, you told us about your interestingly, you told us about your interestingly, you told us about your teenage years and your early university teenage years and your early university teenage years and your early university years in which years in which years in which you could never have guessed that you could never have guessed that you could never have guessed that 40-year-old Rachel would be gladly and 40-year-old Rachel would be gladly and 40-year-old Rachel would be gladly and confidently articulating Christianity's confidently articulating Christianity's confidently articulating Christianity's truth, goodness, and beauty. truth, goodness, and beauty. truth, goodness, and beauty. Explain. Explain. Explain. >> That's [laughter] right. >> That's [laughter] right. >> That's [laughter] right. Yeah, I had a very Yeah, I had a very Yeah, I had a very uh simplistic and small view of uh simplistic and small view of uh simplistic and small view of Christianity by the time I entered into Christianity by the time I entered into Christianity by the time I entered into college. So, I often say I got tricked college. So, I often say I got tricked college. So, I often say I got tricked into moving to Yale from Southern into moving to Yale from Southern into moving to Yale from Southern California California California where it's cold all the time. And and where it's cold all the time. And and where it's cold all the time. And and when I uh when I showed up on campus, I when I uh when I showed up on campus, I when I uh when I showed up on campus, I had this view of Christians Well, one, I had this view of Christians Well, one, I had this view of Christians Well, one, I thought of them as stupid people. You thought of them as stupid people. You thought of them as stupid people. You know, I thought this isn't true. This is know, I thought this isn't true. This is know, I thought this isn't true. This is just people believe in a made-up God cuz just people believe in a made-up God cuz just people believe in a made-up God cuz it is a crutch that helps them get it is a crutch that helps them get it is a crutch that helps them get through life. That's not what real through life. That's not what real through life. That's not what real thinkers do. That's not what, you know, thinkers do. That's not what, you know, thinkers do. That's not what, you know, people who are pursuing true questions people who are pursuing true questions people who are pursuing true questions need.

need. need. And the other thing that I thought about And the other thing that I thought about And the other thing that I thought about Christianity came from something I'd Christianity came from something I'd Christianity came from something I'd recognized about myself in high school, recognized about myself in high school, recognized about myself in high school, which was that the way that my female which was that the way that my female which was that the way that my female friends felt about other young men was friends felt about other young men was friends felt about other young men was actually how I felt about other young actually how I felt about other young actually how I felt about other young women. And so, as I started to have women. And so, as I started to have women. And so, as I started to have sexual and romantic relationships with sexual and romantic relationships with sexual and romantic relationships with other young women, I thought, "Oh, this other young women, I thought, "Oh, this other young women, I thought, "Oh, this is where I feel at home. This is where I is where I feel at home. This is where I is where I feel at home. This is where I think my future is." And even though I think my future is." And even though I think my future is." And even though I had never been mistreated by a Christian had never been mistreated by a Christian had never been mistreated by a Christian because of my sexuality, because of my sexuality, because of my sexuality, I just sort of knew that Christians were I just sort of knew that Christians were I just sort of knew that Christians were bigots, that they were against me bigots, that they were against me bigots, that they were against me because of this part of my life. So, because of this part of my life. So, because of this part of my life. So, when I showed up at school, I just when I showed up at school, I just when I showed up at school, I just thought, "Why I have no need for that at thought, "Why I have no need for that at thought, "Why I have no need for that at all." all." all." Christianity was offensive and ugly to Christianity was offensive and ugly to Christianity was offensive and ugly to me. me. me. But, college was But, college was But, college was uh shifting for me. Going to a uh shifting for me. Going to a uh shifting for me. Going to a world-class university really shook up world-class university really shook up world-class university really shook up my understanding of myself as my understanding of myself as my understanding of myself as intelligent, knocked me down, which was intelligent, knocked me down, which was intelligent, knocked me down, which was very good. very good. very good. And then the other thing that happened And then the other thing that happened And then the other thing that happened was the girl I was dating at the time was the girl I was dating at the time was the girl I was dating at the time dumped me. And some of you have been dumped me. And some of you have been dumped me. And some of you have been through teenage breakups, you remember through teenage breakups, you remember through teenage breakups, you remember that that's hard. So, I was that that's hard. So, I was that that's hard. So, I was I was looking around for something, but I was looking around for something, but I was looking around for something, but it it wasn't Jesus. But, luckily Jesus it it wasn't Jesus. But, luckily Jesus it it wasn't Jesus. But, luckily Jesus was looking for me. So, I remember being was looking for me. So, I remember being was looking for me. So, I remember being in a lecture, hearing about existence of in a lecture, hearing about existence of in a lecture, hearing about existence of God, being interested, Googling. I God, being interested, Googling. I God, being interested, Googling. I started reading different stories about started reading different stories about started reading different stories about Jesus and was finding him more Jesus and was finding him more Jesus and was finding him more interesting than the caricature in my interesting than the caricature in my interesting than the caricature in my mind had been.

mind had been. mind had been. But I was still like, "Oh, I'm a But I was still like, "Oh, I'm a But I was still like, "Oh, I'm a self-respecting atheist. I want to marry self-respecting atheist. I want to marry self-respecting atheist. I want to marry a woman someday. Like, I can't be a woman someday. Like, I can't be a woman someday. Like, I can't be interested in Jesus." interested in Jesus." interested in Jesus." The only two people I knew at Yale's The only two people I knew at Yale's The only two people I knew at Yale's campus who identified as Christians were campus who identified as Christians were campus who identified as Christians were these two young women who were dating these two young women who were dating these two young women who were dating each other. So, I remember going to them each other. So, I remember going to them each other. So, I remember going to them thinking, "Can you explain to me how thinking, "Can you explain to me how thinking, "Can you explain to me how this worked?" this worked?" this worked?" They were like, "Oh, yeah, the Bible's They were like, "Oh, yeah, the Bible's They were like, "Oh, yeah, the Bible's been misinterpreted. If you interpret it been misinterpreted. If you interpret it been misinterpreted. If you interpret it correctly, you'll see that God affirms correctly, you'll see that God affirms correctly, you'll see that God affirms monogamous gay relationships." They gave monogamous gay relationships." They gave monogamous gay relationships." They gave me this packet explaining and I was me this packet explaining and I was me this packet explaining and I was comparing it to Bible verses I was comparing it to Bible verses I was comparing it to Bible verses I was pulling up and I thought, pulling up and I thought, pulling up and I thought, "I'm not a Bible scholar, but I know how "I'm not a Bible scholar, but I know how "I'm not a Bible scholar, but I know how to read. I don't think this is I don't to read. I don't think this is I don't to read. I don't think this is I don't think the Bible is for this. I just It think the Bible is for this. I just It think the Bible is for this. I just It doesn't make sense to me at all." doesn't make sense to me at all." doesn't make sense to me at all." A little while after that, I happened to A little while after that, I happened to A little while after that, I happened to be in the room of one of my friends. Um be in the room of one of my friends. Um be in the room of one of my friends. Um she had a bookshelf. One of my favorite she had a bookshelf. One of my favorite she had a bookshelf. One of my favorite hobbies is looking at people's hobbies is looking at people's hobbies is looking at people's bookshelves and judging them. bookshelves and judging them. bookshelves and judging them. And she It's true. And she It's true. And she It's true. She had a copy There was a spine on her She had a copy There was a spine on her She had a copy There was a spine on her bookshelf that said, "Mere Christianity" bookshelf that said, "Mere Christianity" bookshelf that said, "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis. by C. S. Lewis. by C. S. Lewis. And I hadn't been raised on Narnia, but And I hadn't been raised on Narnia, but And I hadn't been raised on Narnia, but like the title was appealing to me. So, like the title was appealing to me. So, like the title was appealing to me. So, I was too embarrassed to ask my friend I was too embarrassed to ask my friend I was too embarrassed to ask my friend for the book, so I just stole the book.

for the book, so I just stole the book. for the book, so I just stole the book. So, I put it in my bag. So, I put it in my bag. So, I put it in my bag. And I was And I was And I was >> still steal books? >> still steal books? >> still steal books? >> Well, not present progressive, but you >> Well, not present progressive, but you >> Well, not present progressive, but you know, at this at this time, yeah, no. know, at this at this time, yeah, no. know, at this at this time, yeah, no. Sanctification, come on. Sanctification, come on. Sanctification, come on. But I was reading this book in between But I was reading this book in between But I was reading this book in between classes one day and it wasn't like a classes one day and it wasn't like a classes one day and it wasn't like a particular chapter or page or anything particular chapter or page or anything particular chapter or page or anything like that, but in the midst of reading like that, but in the midst of reading like that, but in the midst of reading it, I was suddenly overwhelmed it, I was suddenly overwhelmed it, I was suddenly overwhelmed that God does exist. And not like a that God does exist. And not like a that God does exist. And not like a store-brand God or Zeus or something store-brand God or Zeus or something store-brand God or Zeus or something like this, but the God who made like this, but the God who made like this, but the God who made everything. The God who is perfect. And everything. The God who is perfect. And everything. The God who is perfect. And I knew I was going to have to give him I knew I was going to have to give him I knew I was going to have to give him an account of my life. And I an account of my life. And I an account of my life. And I I had met me. I was arrogant and unkind I had met me. I was arrogant and unkind I had met me. I was arrogant and unkind and sexually immoral and I lied for fun and sexually immoral and I lied for fun and sexually immoral and I lied for fun and I was reading a stolen book. Like I and I was reading a stolen book. Like I and I was reading a stolen book. Like I knew where all my chips were. knew where all my chips were. knew where all my chips were. So, God really confronted me with the So, God really confronted me with the So, God really confronted me with the bad news of the gospel at first. bad news of the gospel at first. bad news of the gospel at first. But really quickly with that, I also But really quickly with that, I also But really quickly with that, I also understood that part of the reason Jesus understood that part of the reason Jesus understood that part of the reason Jesus had come was to place himself as a had come was to place himself as a had come was to place himself as a barrier between God's wrath and me.

barrier between God's wrath and me. barrier between God's wrath and me. And that the only way to be safe was to And that the only way to be safe was to And that the only way to be safe was to run towards Jesus, run towards Jesus, run towards Jesus, not away from Jesus. not away from Jesus. not away from Jesus. And so, I remember thinking, "I don't And so, I remember thinking, "I don't And so, I remember thinking, "I don't want to become a Christian. Christians want to become a Christian. Christians want to become a Christian. Christians are really lame." are really lame." are really lame." But I was also like, "I can't pretend But I was also like, "I can't pretend But I was also like, "I can't pretend this isn't real just cuz it's like this isn't real just cuz it's like this isn't real just cuz it's like inconvenient for my life. Like I should inconvenient for my life. Like I should inconvenient for my life. Like I should take the deal." take the deal." take the deal." So, in that moment, I was confronted, So, in that moment, I was confronted, So, in that moment, I was confronted, "This is true." "This is true." "This is true." And I was also confronted, "This is And I was also confronted, "This is And I was also confronted, "This is clearly good for me because I've just clearly good for me because I've just clearly good for me because I've just been rescued for something I could not been rescued for something I could not been rescued for something I could not possibly rescue myself out of." possibly rescue myself out of." possibly rescue myself out of." The jury at that exact moment was out The jury at that exact moment was out The jury at that exact moment was out whether Christianity would be beautiful. whether Christianity would be beautiful. whether Christianity would be beautiful. But in my But in my But in my 22 years of walking with the Lord now, 22 years of walking with the Lord now, 22 years of walking with the Lord now, [music] he's proven himself to be [music] he's proven himself to be [music] he's proven himself to be beautiful over and over again. beautiful over and over again. beautiful over and over again. So, it's been one of the greatest So, it's been one of the greatest So, it's been one of the greatest joys of my life. joys of my life. joys of my life. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. >> Rebecca, >> Rebecca, >> Rebecca, your your journey that God has had you your your journey that God has had you your your journey that God has had you on to come to the same conclusion as on to come to the same conclusion as on to come to the same conclusion as Rachel, that Christianity is true, good, Rachel, that Christianity is true, good, Rachel, that Christianity is true, good, and beautiful, including with respect to and beautiful, including with respect to and beautiful, including with respect to sexuality and gender, your journey has sexuality and gender, your journey has sexuality and gender, your journey has been very different. Can you tell us a been very different. Can you tell us a been very different. Can you tell us a bit about your journey and how God has bit about your journey and how God has bit about your journey and how God has brought you to this place of gladly and brought you to this place of gladly and brought you to this place of gladly and confidently declaring those truths?

confidently declaring those truths? confidently declaring those truths? >> Yes. So, I grew up in London, uh quite a >> Yes. So, I grew up in London, uh quite a >> Yes. So, I grew up in London, uh quite a long way away from California where long way away from California where long way away from California where Rachel was. And it's also Rachel was. And it's also Rachel was. And it's also geographically, we've moved to the same geographically, we've moved to the same geographically, we've moved to the same place and and actually also place and and actually also place and and actually also theologically, we've moved to the same theologically, we've moved to the same theologically, we've moved to the same place. Uh I grew up in a a church-going place. Uh I grew up in a a church-going place. Uh I grew up in a a church-going home, but it was a very kind of mixed home, but it was a very kind of mixed home, but it was a very kind of mixed home in terms of our um the kind of home in terms of our um the kind of home in terms of our um the kind of church that we attended. church that we attended. church that we attended. As long as I can remember, honestly, As long as I can remember, honestly, As long as I can remember, honestly, I've been a follower of Jesus. I've been a follower of Jesus. I've been a follower of Jesus. And as long as I can remember having any And as long as I can remember having any And as long as I can remember having any kind of sexual or romantic feelings, kind of sexual or romantic feelings, kind of sexual or romantic feelings, they were always directed toward other they were always directed toward other they were always directed toward other women, or girls at the time. women, or girls at the time. women, or girls at the time. And so I grew up, you know, And so I grew up, you know, And so I grew up, you know, seriously following Jesus, wanting to seriously following Jesus, wanting to seriously following Jesus, wanting to tell my friends about Jesus. tell my friends about Jesus. tell my friends about Jesus. I was in quite kind of academic I was in quite kind of academic I was in quite kind of academic schooling environments where almost none schooling environments where almost none schooling environments where almost none of my friends believed in Jesus. So of my friends believed in Jesus. So of my friends believed in Jesus. So actually more of them were in Rachel's actually more of them were in Rachel's actually more of them were in Rachel's camp of Christianity is is stupid and camp of Christianity is is stupid and camp of Christianity is is stupid and foolish, and I wouldn't even consider foolish, and I wouldn't even consider foolish, and I wouldn't even consider the claims of Jesus for all these the claims of Jesus for all these the claims of Jesus for all these reasons. reasons. reasons. I I was very sure about who Jesus was. I I was very sure about who Jesus was. I I was very sure about who Jesus was. I was also just not really sure what to I was also just not really sure what to I was also just not really sure what to do with the feelings that were arising do with the feelings that were arising do with the feelings that were arising in me, and I think honestly, I was in me, and I think honestly, I was in me, and I think honestly, I was mostly hoping that they would just go mostly hoping that they would just go mostly hoping that they would just go away. I thought, you know, this is just away. I thought, you know, this is just away. I thought, you know, this is just like a phase I'm going through, like like a phase I'm going through, like like a phase I'm going through, like adolescent acne or something, and I'll adolescent acne or something, and I'll adolescent acne or something, and I'll grow out of this.

grow out of this. grow out of this. And then, you know, going off to And then, you know, going off to And then, you know, going off to university, disappointed to find I university, disappointed to find I university, disappointed to find I hadn't grown out of this, going to grad hadn't grown out of this, going to grad hadn't grown out of this, going to grad school hadn't grown out of this. So school hadn't grown out of this. So school hadn't grown out of this. So I needed to I needed to I needed to to believe that Jesus is is true and to believe that Jesus is is true and to believe that Jesus is is true and good and beautiful, and that what the good and beautiful, and that what the good and beautiful, and that what the Bible says on these questions Bible says on these questions Bible says on these questions is true and good and beautiful is true and good and beautiful is true and good and beautiful in many ways actually before I I really in many ways actually before I I really in many ways actually before I I really understood the gospel underpinnings of understood the gospel underpinnings of understood the gospel underpinnings of Christian sexual ethics. Christian sexual ethics. Christian sexual ethics. But I'm thankful to have have grown up But I'm thankful to have have grown up But I'm thankful to have have grown up in a home where in a home where in a home where I did know Jesus from an early age, and I did know Jesus from an early age, and I did know Jesus from an early age, and thankful for his faithfulness over the thankful for his faithfulness over the thankful for his faithfulness over the years to me. >> I want to shift gears now and think more >> I want to shift gears now and think more narrowly. We've talked about sexuality narrowly. We've talked about sexuality narrowly. We've talked about sexuality and gender, and how you have seen and gender, and how you have seen and gender, and how you have seen Christianity's truth and goodness and Christianity's truth and goodness and Christianity's truth and goodness and beauty there. I want to shift our focus beauty there. I want to shift our focus beauty there. I want to shift our focus more narrowly to the question relating more narrowly to the question relating more narrowly to the question relating to trans identities. I want to ask you, to trans identities. I want to ask you, to trans identities. I want to ask you, Rachel, in particular, Rachel, in particular, Rachel, in particular, what do you think, you know, nowadays so what do you think, you know, nowadays so what do you think, you know, nowadays so many of our friends and neighbors are many of our friends and neighbors are many of our friends and neighbors are turned off to Christianity as a result turned off to Christianity as a result turned off to Christianity as a result of what they see as Christians opposing of what they see as Christians opposing of what they see as Christians opposing people with trans identities?

people with trans identities? people with trans identities? And they've come to the conclusion that And they've come to the conclusion that And they've come to the conclusion that Christianity is ugly. And that it's a Christianity is ugly. And that it's a Christianity is ugly. And that it's a lie and that it's bad. lie and that it's bad. lie and that it's bad. What do you think about our generation, What do you think about our generation, What do you think about our generation, the church in our generation, our the church in our generation, our the church in our generation, our opportunity, this moment? What kind of opportunity, this moment? What kind of opportunity, this moment? What kind of opportunities do we have opportunities do we have opportunities do we have in light of where we are with respect to in light of where we are with respect to in light of where we are with respect to conversations about transgender? conversations about transgender? conversations about transgender? >> Well, I was wondering, Dex, did you want >> Well, I was wondering, Dex, did you want >> Well, I was wondering, Dex, did you want to do the metaphor? It's okay. Your to do the metaphor? It's okay. Your to do the metaphor? It's okay. Your question wasn't bad, but I was thinking question wasn't bad, but I was thinking question wasn't bad, but I was thinking what I have to say about trans what I have to say about trans what I have to say about trans identities is important and it actually identities is important and it actually identities is important and it actually builds on something that Rebecca and I builds on something that Rebecca and I builds on something that Rebecca and I share a strong opinion about. share a strong opinion about. share a strong opinion about. >> Yes, so I was >> Yes, so I was >> Yes, so I was >> Well, let's go in a different order. You >> Well, let's go in a different order. You >> Well, let's go in a different order. You and then you. and then you. and then you. >> I I said I'd come to a clear >> I I said I'd come to a clear >> I I said I'd come to a clear understanding of how what the Bible says understanding of how what the Bible says understanding of how what the Bible says about gender and sexuality actually about gender and sexuality actually about gender and sexuality actually flows out of the gospel, but then I flows out of the gospel, but then I flows out of the gospel, but then I failed to explain and articulate that, failed to explain and articulate that, failed to explain and articulate that, so I will I will do that real quick now. so I will I will do that real quick now. so I will I will do that real quick now. If we look at the Bible from beginning If we look at the Bible from beginning If we look at the Bible from beginning to end, we will find that it is actually to end, we will find that it is actually to end, we will find that it is actually not a story of hate as many in our not a story of hate as many in our not a story of hate as many in our culture think, but it's a story of love.

culture think, but it's a story of love. culture think, but it's a story of love. But it's just a bigger love story than But it's just a bigger love story than But it's just a bigger love story than many of us were ready for. many of us were ready for. many of us were ready for. So we see at the very beginning when God So we see at the very beginning when God So we see at the very beginning when God makes human beings male and female in makes human beings male and female in makes human beings male and female in his image and he joins one man and one his image and he joins one man and one his image and he joins one man and one woman together in this sort of covenant woman together in this sort of covenant woman together in this sort of covenant of marriage. It's a very strange of marriage. It's a very strange of marriage. It's a very strange description that God gives in Genesis 2. description that God gives in Genesis 2. description that God gives in Genesis 2. He says, "Therefore a man will leave his He says, "Therefore a man will leave his He says, "Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother and be united to father and his mother and be united to father and his mother and be united to his wife and they shall become one his wife and they shall become one his wife and they shall become one flesh." Sort of curious description flesh." Sort of curious description flesh." Sort of curious description pop there at the end of Genesis 2. pop there at the end of Genesis 2. pop there at the end of Genesis 2. And then Genesis 3 happens and the first And then Genesis 3 happens and the first And then Genesis 3 happens and the first man and woman turn away from God and all man and woman turn away from God and all man and woman turn away from God and all sorts of sinful behaviors flow out of sorts of sinful behaviors flow out of sorts of sinful behaviors flow out of that. We see that throughout the Old that. We see that throughout the Old that. We see that throughout the Old Testament. We'll touch on some of those Testament. We'll touch on some of those Testament. We'll touch on some of those in a in a little while. Um but we see in a in a little while. Um but we see in a in a little while. Um but we see including every example possible of of including every example possible of of including every example possible of of sexual sin, every sort of breaking of sexual sin, every sort of breaking of sexual sin, every sort of breaking of that one flesh union of one man and one that one flesh union of one man and one that one flesh union of one man and one woman. woman. woman. And at the same time as we read through And at the same time as we read through And at the same time as we read through through the Old Testament carefully, we through the Old Testament carefully, we through the Old Testament carefully, we will start to hear a love song being will start to hear a love song being will start to hear a love song being sung, and it is the love song of God for sung, and it is the love song of God for sung, and it is the love song of God for his people. his people. his people. You know, time and again the prophets You know, time and again the prophets You know, time and again the prophets will compare God to a loving faithful will compare God to a loving faithful will compare God to a loving faithful husband and Israel to an all-too-often husband and Israel to an all-too-often husband and Israel to an all-too-often unfaithful wife.

unfaithful wife. unfaithful wife. And it's like this marriage is is in And it's like this marriage is is in And it's like this marriage is is in constant crisis cuz God's people keep on constant crisis cuz God's people keep on constant crisis cuz God's people keep on cheating on him with other so-called cheating on him with other so-called cheating on him with other so-called gods or sort of idols of the ancient gods or sort of idols of the ancient gods or sort of idols of the ancient world. And God keeps forgiving them and world. And God keeps forgiving them and world. And God keeps forgiving them and wooing them back, but it's it's like wooing them back, but it's it's like wooing them back, but it's it's like this marriage is sort of this marriage is sort of this marriage is sort of in crisis, headed for a divorce. in crisis, headed for a divorce. in crisis, headed for a divorce. And then Jesus comes. And then Jesus comes. And then Jesus comes. And Jesus steps onto the stage of human And Jesus steps onto the stage of human And Jesus steps onto the stage of human history, and one of the strange things history, and one of the strange things history, and one of the strange things that Jesus says about himself is that he that Jesus says about himself is that he that Jesus says about himself is that he is the bridegroom. is the bridegroom. is the bridegroom. You think well, You think well, You think well, what's that about? I mean, Jesus never what's that about? I mean, Jesus never what's that about? I mean, Jesus never married in his life on earth. So, what married in his life on earth. So, what married in his life on earth. So, what are we what are we talking about there? are we what are we talking about there? are we what are we talking about there? Well, it's one of the ways in which Well, it's one of the ways in which Well, it's one of the ways in which Jesus is stepping into the shoes of the Jesus is stepping into the shoes of the Jesus is stepping into the shoes of the creator God of the Old Testament. You creator God of the Old Testament. You creator God of the Old Testament. You know, he's saying, "I I'm the husband. know, he's saying, "I I'm the husband. know, he's saying, "I I'm the husband. I've come to claim God's people for I've come to claim God's people for I've come to claim God's people for myself." myself." myself." And then as we read through the New And then as we read through the New And then as we read through the New Testament, we see Paul in in Ephesians 5 Testament, we see Paul in in Ephesians 5 Testament, we see Paul in in Ephesians 5 saying that Christian marriage is saying that Christian marriage is saying that Christian marriage is actually designed to echo Jesus's love actually designed to echo Jesus's love actually designed to echo Jesus's love for his people. for his people. for his people. And at the the end of that chapter, it's And at the the end of that chapter, it's And at the the end of that chapter, it's sort of a a chapter which when I first sort of a a chapter which when I first sort of a a chapter which when I first seriously wrestled with it as a student, seriously wrestled with it as a student, seriously wrestled with it as a student, I found sort of highly offensive. You I found sort of highly offensive. You I found sort of highly offensive. You know, Paul's first statement, "Wives know, Paul's first statement, "Wives know, Paul's first statement, "Wives submit to your husbands as the Lord, for submit to your husbands as the Lord, for submit to your husbands as the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife as the husband is the head of the wife as the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church." I was Christ is the head of the church." I was Christ is the head of the church." I was I was really thrown by that.

A- As I read on and as as I explored A- As I read on and as as I explored more and listened to what Paul then says more and listened to what Paul then says more and listened to what Paul then says to husbands, "Husbands, love your wives to husbands, "Husbands, love your wives to husbands, "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave as Christ loved the church and gave as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." And thought about, himself up for her." And thought about, himself up for her." And thought about, "Well, wait a minute. What does that "Well, wait a minute. What does that "Well, wait a minute. What does that look like? How did How did Christ love look like? How did How did Christ love look like? How did How did Christ love the church and give himself up for her?" the church and give himself up for her?" the church and give himself up for her?" Naked and bleeding on a Roman cross. You Naked and bleeding on a Roman cross. You Naked and bleeding on a Roman cross. You know, giving everything he had for love know, giving everything he had for love know, giving everything he had for love of us. of us. of us. It's the opposite of a mandate for It's the opposite of a mandate for It's the opposite of a mandate for oppression of women. oppression of women. oppression of women. And actually what what Paul's saying in And actually what what Paul's saying in And actually what what Paul's saying in Ephesians 5, he said it's not based on Ephesians 5, he said it's not based on Ephesians 5, he said it's not based on sort of gendered psychology or any kind sort of gendered psychology or any kind sort of gendered psychology or any kind of cultural construct, it's based on of cultural construct, it's based on of cultural construct, it's based on Christ and the church. It's Christ and the church. It's Christ and the church. It's Christ-centered theology. Christ-centered theology. Christ-centered theology. And it's fascinating to me at the the And it's fascinating to me at the the And it's fascinating to me at the the end of that extraordinary description of end of that extraordinary description of end of that extraordinary description of of Christian marriage that Paul gives, of Christian marriage that Paul gives, of Christian marriage that Paul gives, he quotes back Genesis 2. Therefore a he quotes back Genesis 2. Therefore a he quotes back Genesis 2. Therefore a man will leave his father and mother be man will leave his father and mother be man will leave his father and mother be united to his wife, they shall become united to his wife, they shall become united to his wife, they shall become one flesh. And Paul says, "This is a one flesh. And Paul says, "This is a one flesh. And Paul says, "This is a profound mystery profound mystery profound mystery and I'm saying that it refers to Christ and I'm saying that it refers to Christ and I'm saying that it refers to Christ and the church." and the church." and the church." So from the beginning, from creation, So from the beginning, from creation, So from the beginning, from creation, from when God made humans male and from when God made humans male and from when God made humans male and female in his image, from when he female in his image, from when he female in his image, from when he instituted marriage, it's always about instituted marriage, it's always about instituted marriage, it's always about Jesus and his people. Jesus and his people. Jesus and his people. And we see at the very end of the Bible And we see at the very end of the Bible And we see at the very end of the Bible in the book of Revelation in the book of Revelation in the book of Revelation this great shout going out, "The wedding this great shout going out, "The wedding this great shout going out, "The wedding of the lamb has come." And Jesus is of the lamb has come." And Jesus is of the lamb has come." And Jesus is married to his church bringing heaven married to his church bringing heaven married to his church bringing heaven and earth back together.

and earth back together. and earth back together. So th- this is actually why marriage is So th- this is actually why marriage is So th- this is actually why marriage is male and female and why husbands and male and female and why husbands and male and female and why husbands and wives are called to different roles. wives are called to different roles. wives are called to different roles. They're like Christ and the church, it's They're like Christ and the church, it's They're like Christ and the church, it's a love built on sacrifice. Like Christ a love built on sacrifice. Like Christ a love built on sacrifice. Like Christ and the church, it's a love across and the church, it's a love across and the church, it's a love across difference. difference. difference. Like Christ and the church, it's a Like Christ and the church, it's a Like Christ and the church, it's a life-creating, flesh-uniting, life-creating, flesh-uniting, life-creating, flesh-uniting, never-ending, exclusive love. never-ending, exclusive love. never-ending, exclusive love. So this is the the the gospel foundation So this is the the the gospel foundation So this is the the the gospel foundation for what the Bible is is telling us for what the Bible is is telling us for what the Bible is is telling us on these questions. And it's actually on these questions. And it's actually on these questions. And it's actually about a love much greater than any human about a love much greater than any human about a love much greater than any human marriage is going to give to you any of marriage is going to give to you any of marriage is going to give to you any of us. It's about Jesus's love for us. us. It's about Jesus's love for us. us. It's about Jesus's love for us. Now back to the trans questions that Now back to the trans questions that Now back to the trans questions that Rachel was going to answer. Rachel was going to answer. Rachel was going to answer. >> What we're trying to say is there's >> What we're trying to say is there's >> What we're trying to say is there's sometimes Christianity has been um sometimes Christianity has been um sometimes Christianity has been um taught as if it's just a chorus of no. taught as if it's just a chorus of no. taught as if it's just a chorus of no. But what we see in God's positive sexual But what we see in God's positive sexual But what we see in God's positive sexual images, it's a yes. It's a very specific images, it's a yes. It's a very specific images, it's a yes. It's a very specific yes that we're united to. And so when we yes that we're united to. And so when we yes that we're united to. And so when we come to a question like transgender come to a question like transgender come to a question like transgender identities, I mean it's complex, it's identities, I mean it's complex, it's identities, I mean it's complex, it's vulnerable. Part of our affirmation is vulnerable. Part of our affirmation is vulnerable. Part of our affirmation is we see God at the beginning created male we see God at the beginning created male we see God at the beginning created male and female very good, but we know we and female very good, but we know we and female very good, but we know we live in a fallen world. We don't always live in a fallen world. We don't always live in a fallen world. We don't always experience that is very good. And so experience that is very good. And so experience that is very good. And so Rebecca and I live outside of Boston.

Rebecca and I live outside of Boston. Rebecca and I live outside of Boston. It's a very progressive place. So many It's a very progressive place. So many It's a very progressive place. So many of our neighbors who do not identify as of our neighbors who do not identify as of our neighbors who do not identify as transgender think of Christianity as transgender think of Christianity as transgender think of Christianity as ugly or harmful because of our ugly or harmful because of our ugly or harmful because of our non-acceptance of transgender non-acceptance of transgender non-acceptance of transgender identities. identities. identities. And what's interesting to me about this And what's interesting to me about this And what's interesting to me about this point of view is well point of view is well point of view is well progressive secularism includes right progressive secularism includes right progressive secularism includes right now an embrace and advocacy a now an embrace and advocacy a now an embrace and advocacy a celebration of transgender identities. celebration of transgender identities. celebration of transgender identities. But what's funny about progressive But what's funny about progressive But what's funny about progressive secularism is secularism is secularism is it's a radical Christian heresy. it's a radical Christian heresy. it's a radical Christian heresy. You only get that form of secularism if You only get that form of secularism if You only get that form of secularism if it's been bathing in the gospel for a it's been bathing in the gospel for a it's been bathing in the gospel for a long time. long time. long time. Progressive secularism is basically like Progressive secularism is basically like Progressive secularism is basically like a teenage girl who's really mad at her a teenage girl who's really mad at her a teenage girl who's really mad at her mom mom mom the gospel but still wants to use her the gospel but still wants to use her the gospel but still wants to use her stuff. So a lot of the reasons that stuff. So a lot of the reasons that stuff. So a lot of the reasons that they're mad about us regarding trans they're mad about us regarding trans they're mad about us regarding trans identities is because they're taking identities is because they're taking identities is because they're taking virtues that belong to Christians and virtues that belong to Christians and virtues that belong to Christians and kind of weirdly judging Christianity kind of weirdly judging Christianity kind of weirdly judging Christianity with it but in in the wrong way. So for with it but in in the wrong way. So for with it but in in the wrong way. So for example, part of the reason that our example, part of the reason that our example, part of the reason that our neighbors think of our view as so ugly neighbors think of our view as so ugly neighbors think of our view as so ugly or harmful or harmful or harmful is because they really have seen trans is because they really have seen trans is because they really have seen trans identifying people mistreated. They identifying people mistreated. They identifying people mistreated. They really have seen them harmed or um really have seen them harmed or um really have seen them harmed or um disrespected in variety of ways.

disrespected in variety of ways. disrespected in variety of ways. And they understand that And they understand that And they understand that oh well that's wrong. People shouldn't oh well that's wrong. People shouldn't oh well that's wrong. People shouldn't be mistreated because of different be mistreated because of different be mistreated because of different points of view or different ways of points of view or different ways of points of view or different ways of living. Well, they didn't get that out living. Well, they didn't get that out living. Well, they didn't get that out of nowhere. That actually comes from of nowhere. That actually comes from of nowhere. That actually comes from that's justice. It is God who said every that's justice. It is God who said every that's justice. It is God who said every single human is made in my image. single human is made in my image. single human is made in my image. Every single human being therefore Every single human being therefore Every single human being therefore deserves honor and dignity and respect. deserves honor and dignity and respect. deserves honor and dignity and respect. Period. No matter whether they with us Period. No matter whether they with us Period. No matter whether they with us or not, right? That that comes from the or not, right? That that comes from the or not, right? That that comes from the Bible. And justice, again, not made up Bible. And justice, again, not made up Bible. And justice, again, not made up by progressives, justice is something by progressives, justice is something by progressives, justice is something God declares. Like, I'm going to take God declares. Like, I'm going to take God declares. Like, I'm going to take care of the oppressed and the forgotten care of the oppressed and the forgotten care of the oppressed and the forgotten and the lowly. And so, when they get mad and the lowly. And so, when they get mad and the lowly. And so, when they get mad at how even sometimes at how even sometimes at how even sometimes Christians have mistreated Christians have mistreated Christians have mistreated trans-identifying people, they're trans-identifying people, they're trans-identifying people, they're expressing something that lines up with expressing something that lines up with expressing something that lines up with what we view, which is that no one what we view, which is that no one what we view, which is that no one should be harassed or mistreated should be harassed or mistreated should be harassed or mistreated for any view of difference. So, in any for any view of difference. So, in any for any view of difference. So, in any place we have authority to, we should place we have authority to, we should place we have authority to, we should repent. The proper response to that is repent. The proper response to that is repent. The proper response to that is repentance.

repentance. repentance. The proper response isn't giving up what The proper response isn't giving up what The proper response isn't giving up what God has said, which is that we have been God has said, which is that we have been God has said, which is that we have been made male and female. It is our made male and female. It is our made male and female. It is our responsibility to live in alignment, to responsibility to live in alignment, to responsibility to live in alignment, to represent through our gender the body represent through our gender the body represent through our gender the body that God has given us. But the other that God has given us. But the other that God has given us. But the other thing reason why they often think that thing reason why they often think that thing reason why they often think that Christianity is ugly in this place is Christianity is ugly in this place is Christianity is ugly in this place is because they think we're betraying the because they think we're betraying the because they think we're betraying the good of authenticity. good of authenticity. good of authenticity. Sometimes you've heard this like Sometimes you've heard this like Sometimes you've heard this like expressive individualism, right? That expressive individualism, right? That expressive individualism, right? That your feelings are who you really are and your feelings are who you really are and your feelings are who you really are and then you have to live those out. then you have to live those out. then you have to live those out. Well, this is really just a Well, this is really just a Well, this is really just a a very sick version of a Christian a very sick version of a Christian a very sick version of a Christian virtue. You might even call it in virtue. You might even call it in virtue. You might even call it in Christianity integrity. It's not the Christianity integrity. It's not the Christianity integrity. It's not the French existentialists who made up that French existentialists who made up that French existentialists who made up that your outside life needs to match your your outside life needs to match your your outside life needs to match your inner life. That's something that I inner life. That's something that I inner life. That's something that I mean, Jeremiah was saying, "God's got to mean, Jeremiah was saying, "God's got to mean, Jeremiah was saying, "God's got to give you a new heart." Jesus was saying, give you a new heart." Jesus was saying, give you a new heart." Jesus was saying, "It doesn't matter what you do on the "It doesn't matter what you do on the "It doesn't matter what you do on the outside, you have to be transformed from outside, you have to be transformed from outside, you have to be transformed from the inside." And so many Christian the inside." And so many Christian the inside." And so many Christian thinkers have said, "Oh, we have to we thinkers have said, "Oh, we have to we thinkers have said, "Oh, we have to we have to go inward so that we can go have to go inward so that we can go have to go inward so that we can go upward." Like, our our whole lives have upward." Like, our our whole lives have upward." Like, our our whole lives have to matter, integrity.

to matter, integrity. to matter, integrity. But if you rip Jesus out of that good But if you rip Jesus out of that good But if you rip Jesus out of that good and you just have authenticity, well, then you go deep into your heart well, then you go deep into your heart and you see what you feel and you see what you feel and you see what you feel and that's not a safe place to go and that's not a safe place to go and that's not a safe place to go without the gospel. without the gospel. without the gospel. Because you're going to find in your Because you're going to find in your Because you're going to find in your heart evil things. You're going to find heart evil things. You're going to find heart evil things. You're going to find in your heart broken things. When we go in your heart broken things. When we go in your heart broken things. When we go into our hearts with the gospel, with into our hearts with the gospel, with into our hearts with the gospel, with Jesus, I know I can be forgiven. I know Jesus, I know I can be forgiven. I know Jesus, I know I can be forgiven. I know I can be healed. And also, anything good I can be healed. And also, anything good I can be healed. And also, anything good can be can be can be fanned into flame appropriately. But, if fanned into flame appropriately. But, if fanned into flame appropriately. But, if I don't go in with the gospel, I'll I don't go in with the gospel, I'll I don't go in with the gospel, I'll either despair either despair either despair or I'll have to pretend that that evil or I'll have to pretend that that evil or I'll have to pretend that that evil inside me is actually good. And so, our inside me is actually good. And so, our inside me is actually good. And so, our culture has a parody of integrity, but culture has a parody of integrity, but culture has a parody of integrity, but none of us actually think that we should none of us actually think that we should none of us actually think that we should only do what we feel, right? The only only do what we feel, right? The only only do what we feel, right? The only people we know who do exactly what they people we know who do exactly what they people we know who do exactly what they feel are toddlers. And that's not a feel are toddlers. And that's not a feel are toddlers. And that's not a beautiful vision of how to live a full beautiful vision of how to live a full beautiful vision of how to live a full and human life. and human life. and human life. So, our neighbors are on So, our neighbors are on So, our neighbors are on are on to something that integrity are on to something that integrity are on to something that integrity really matters, but it's actually the really matters, but it's actually the really matters, but it's actually the gospel that gives them a better access gospel that gives them a better access gospel that gives them a better access to the way that our hearts can align to the way that our hearts can align to the way that our hearts can align with our outside living because our with our outside living because our with our outside living because our hearts need to be corrected and directed hearts need to be corrected and directed hearts need to be corrected and directed by God's word and transformed by God's by God's word and transformed by God's by God's word and transformed by God's spirit.

spirit. spirit. >> I so appreciate the careful listening >> I so appreciate the careful listening >> I so appreciate the careful listening and the act of compassion that's and the act of compassion that's and the act of compassion that's evidenced even in your approach to that evidenced even in your approach to that evidenced even in your approach to that question. You're wanting to recognize question. You're wanting to recognize question. You're wanting to recognize what is that heart longing that is being what is that heart longing that is being what is that heart longing that is being perverted, perverted, perverted, but how can I honor this person in but how can I honor this person in but how can I honor this person in understanding where they're coming from? understanding where they're coming from? understanding where they're coming from? Thank you for that. Is there anything Thank you for that. Is there anything Thank you for that. Is there anything you'd want to add? you'd want to add? you'd want to add? >> Yeah, and and so much of what uh >> Yeah, and and so much of what uh >> Yeah, and and so much of what uh friends and neighbors in the Boston area friends and neighbors in the Boston area friends and neighbors in the Boston area believe and the the basis on which they believe and the the basis on which they believe and the the basis on which they critique Christianity as Rachel's been critique Christianity as Rachel's been critique Christianity as Rachel's been saying saying saying is a Christian foundation and without is a Christian foundation and without is a Christian foundation and without Christianity, they have no basis for it. Christianity, they have no basis for it. Christianity, they have no basis for it. So, I'll give one um provocative and So, I'll give one um provocative and So, I'll give one um provocative and painful example. painful example. painful example. But, about the only statement of sexual But, about the only statement of sexual But, about the only statement of sexual ethics that everybody in the Boston area ethics that everybody in the Boston area ethics that everybody in the Boston area agrees with is that rape is wrong. agrees with is that rape is wrong. agrees with is that rape is wrong. You know, we really believe in consent You know, we really believe in consent You know, we really believe in consent and that's regardless of people's sort and that's regardless of people's sort and that's regardless of people's sort of religious or non-religious of religious or non-religious of religious or non-religious backgrounds. backgrounds. backgrounds. What they don't realize is actually What they don't realize is actually What they don't realize is actually Christianity that first brought the idea Christianity that first brought the idea Christianity that first brought the idea of sexual consent to the Western world of sexual consent to the Western world of sexual consent to the Western world um because in the Greco-Roman Empire um because in the Greco-Roman Empire um because in the Greco-Roman Empire a lot of people just didn't count.

a lot of people just didn't count. a lot of people just didn't count. You know, you could you could have sex You know, you could you could have sex You know, you could you could have sex with a slave or a prostitute. Nobody was with a slave or a prostitute. Nobody was with a slave or a prostitute. Nobody was asking whether they consented or not. asking whether they consented or not. asking whether they consented or not. They they they didn't have a sort of They they they didn't have a sort of They they they didn't have a sort of integrity to lose or like a a sexual integrity to lose or like a a sexual integrity to lose or like a a sexual honor that could be compromised. honor that could be compromised. honor that could be compromised. And and the the radical message of And and the the radical message of And and the the radical message of Christianity Christianity Christianity includes the fact that all human beings includes the fact that all human beings includes the fact that all human beings are actually valuable regardless of are actually valuable regardless of are actually valuable regardless of whether they're male or female, rich or whether they're male or female, rich or whether they're male or female, rich or poor, their sort of status in the world. poor, their sort of status in the world. poor, their sort of status in the world. Um and it is on that basis that this Um and it is on that basis that this Um and it is on that basis that this idea of it's really just not okay to idea of it's really just not okay to idea of it's really just not okay to force sex on somebody. That that's where force sex on somebody. That that's where force sex on somebody. That that's where it came from. it came from. it came from. And actually if if you take Christianity And actually if if you take Christianity And actually if if you take Christianity out out out you know, I have plenty of friends who you know, I have plenty of friends who you know, I have plenty of friends who would identify as as secular or um would identify as as secular or um would identify as as secular or um secular humanist or or atheist or they secular humanist or or atheist or they secular humanist or or atheist or they would say, "I look to science for for would say, "I look to science for for would say, "I look to science for for all my um truth claims." all my um truth claims." all my um truth claims." You know, look at the look at the You know, look at the look at the You know, look at the look at the natural world. You'll see plenty of natural world. You'll see plenty of natural world. You'll see plenty of things which in human terms we would things which in human terms we would things which in human terms we would call rape. call rape. call rape. If you take Christianity out If you take Christianity out If you take Christianity out we don't have any basis actually for we don't have any basis actually for we don't have any basis actually for condemning that.

condemning that. condemning that. So so as you as you look at each of So so as you as you look at each of So so as you as you look at each of these kinds of questions where our these kinds of questions where our these kinds of questions where our non-Christian friends or family members non-Christian friends or family members non-Christian friends or family members or or colleagues um might have really or or colleagues um might have really or or colleagues um might have really serious sort of moral critiques of serious sort of moral critiques of serious sort of moral critiques of Christianity, they're often as Rachel Christianity, they're often as Rachel Christianity, they're often as Rachel puts it sort of using their their mom's puts it sort of using their their mom's puts it sort of using their their mom's stuff while rejecting stuff while rejecting stuff while rejecting um their their relationship with their um their their relationship with their um their their relationship with their mom. It's like they're they're taking mom. It's like they're they're taking mom. It's like they're they're taking Christian goods Christian goods Christian goods and arguing against Christianity on the and arguing against Christianity on the and arguing against Christianity on the basis of those things. But if you look basis of those things. But if you look basis of those things. But if you look more closely in each instance more closely in each instance more closely in each instance you find that Christianity actually you find that Christianity actually you find that Christianity actually gives you the the right and good gives you the the right and good gives you the the right and good foundation. Jesus looks foundation. Jesus looks foundation. Jesus looks better the closer you look rather than better the closer you look rather than better the closer you look rather than rather than worse on these questions. rather than worse on these questions. rather than worse on these questions. And actually this is important with And actually this is important with And actually this is important with transgender identities as well because transgender identities as well because transgender identities as well because even for our neighbors who have this the even for our neighbors who have this the even for our neighbors who have this the real experience of gender dysphoria, real experience of gender dysphoria, real experience of gender dysphoria, this ache that they're not in the right this ache that they're not in the right this ache that they're not in the right embodiment. embodiment. embodiment. But there's no amount of surgery or But there's no amount of surgery or But there's no amount of surgery or hormonal treatments that can actually hormonal treatments that can actually hormonal treatments that can actually put them in a real body, but for our put them in a real body, but for our put them in a real body, but for our siblings in Christ who walk with gender siblings in Christ who walk with gender siblings in Christ who walk with gender dysphoria, they have a real promise dysphoria, they have a real promise dysphoria, they have a real promise that when Christ raises them from the that when Christ raises them from the that when Christ raises them from the dead, they will finally receive a body dead, they will finally receive a body dead, they will finally receive a body in which they feel at home.

in which they feel at home. in which they feel at home. And that we've we Christianity actually And that we've we Christianity actually And that we've we Christianity actually has Jesus has for them a promise that has Jesus has for them a promise that has Jesus has for them a promise that medical treatments are only a parody of. medical treatments are only a parody of. medical treatments are only a parody of. And that's something that is a really And that's something that is a really And that's something that is a really beautiful for people who are walking in beautiful for people who are walking in beautiful for people who are walking in a long obedience that's very difficult. a long obedience that's very difficult. a long obedience that's very difficult. >> And not not that he will give us a a >> And not not that he will give us a a >> And not not that he will give us a a body of the opposite sex. There's body of the opposite sex. There's body of the opposite sex. There's actually like a continuity between our actually like a continuity between our actually like a continuity between our our sex bodies now and what they will be our sex bodies now and what they will be our sex bodies now and what they will be in eternity, but that there is a in eternity, but that there is a in eternity, but that there is a glorious transformation of ourselves. glorious transformation of ourselves. glorious transformation of ourselves. >> Sounds like a true, good, and beautiful >> Sounds like a true, good, and beautiful >> Sounds like a true, good, and beautiful promise. promise. promise. Uh I know two people who in a workshop Uh I know two people who in a workshop Uh I know two people who in a workshop talk topic included sexuality, gender, talk topic included sexuality, gender, talk topic included sexuality, gender, warfare, warfare, warfare, and judgment. Um just in 45 minutes. So and judgment. Um just in 45 minutes. So and judgment. Um just in 45 minutes. So we've got to now transition we've got to now transition we've got to now transition from having uh touched on the topics of from having uh touched on the topics of from having uh touched on the topics of the truth, goodness, and beauty of the truth, goodness, and beauty of the truth, goodness, and beauty of Christianity with respect to sexuality Christianity with respect to sexuality Christianity with respect to sexuality and gender to take a look at the same and gender to take a look at the same and gender to take a look at the same thing with respect to warfare and thing with respect to warfare and thing with respect to warfare and judgment. Uh Rebecca, you mentioned judgment. Uh Rebecca, you mentioned judgment. Uh Rebecca, you mentioned moments ago that when you came to the moments ago that when you came to the moments ago that when you came to the Ephesians 5 passage about uh husbands Ephesians 5 passage about uh husbands Ephesians 5 passage about uh husbands being head over their wives, you were being head over their wives, you were being head over their wives, you were blown back for a bit. And it's true that blown back for a bit. And it's true that blown back for a bit. And it's true that particularly in the Old Testament, there particularly in the Old Testament, there particularly in the Old Testament, there are many passages relating to war, are many passages relating to war, are many passages relating to war, conquest, judgment that especially at conquest, judgment that especially at conquest, judgment that especially at first glance can throw us off, and first glance can throw us off, and first glance can throw us off, and there's actually a process of wise there's actually a process of wise there's actually a process of wise interpretation that's involved that interpretation that's involved that interpretation that's involved that takes time. Can you share with us a time takes time. Can you share with us a time takes time. Can you share with us a time that you misinterpreted something in the that you misinterpreted something in the that you misinterpreted something in the Old Testament with respect to warfare Old Testament with respect to warfare Old Testament with respect to warfare and judgment?

and judgment? and judgment? >> Yeah, so this was a a couple years ago. >> Yeah, so this was a a couple years ago. >> Yeah, so this was a a couple years ago. I was doing a a Bible read through in a I was doing a a Bible read through in a I was doing a a Bible read through in a year, you know, as as year, you know, as as year, you know, as as we sometimes do. we sometimes do. we sometimes do. And you know, sometimes you will you And you know, sometimes you will you And you know, sometimes you will you will read a passage of the scriptures will read a passage of the scriptures will read a passage of the scriptures and it's a little bit like and it's a little bit like and it's a little bit like when I was walking down the street that when I was walking down the street that when I was walking down the street that same week and there was like a dead rat same week and there was like a dead rat same week and there was like a dead rat on the ground and I thought I'm going to on the ground and I thought I'm going to on the ground and I thought I'm going to step over that and I'm not going to look step over that and I'm not going to look step over that and I'm not going to look at it and I'm I like I just want to kind at it and I'm I like I just want to kind at it and I'm I like I just want to kind of forget I want to blank that out of my of forget I want to blank that out of my of forget I want to blank that out of my experience. That was the nasty thing on experience. That was the nasty thing on experience. That was the nasty thing on the ground. I'm just going to keep the ground. I'm just going to keep the ground. I'm just going to keep moving. moving. moving. So I was reading through the book of So I was reading through the book of So I was reading through the book of Judges and you know, I I'm well versed Judges and you know, I I'm well versed Judges and you know, I I'm well versed enough in scripture to know that enough in scripture to know that enough in scripture to know that everything the the Bible describes isn't everything the the Bible describes isn't everything the the Bible describes isn't necessarily prescribed, right? necessarily prescribed, right? necessarily prescribed, right? But I'm reading through the book of But I'm reading through the book of But I'm reading through the book of Judges and it's Judges and it's Judges and it's shortly after Jael has done her nifty shortly after Jael has done her nifty shortly after Jael has done her nifty bit of work with the tent peg and bit of work with the tent peg and bit of work with the tent peg and Sisera's head, right? So we've we've had Sisera's head, right? So we've we've had Sisera's head, right? So we've we've had that incident and then Deborah, who is that incident and then Deborah, who is that incident and then Deborah, who is at that time like God's prophet and at that time like God's prophet and at that time like God's prophet and judge to his people, so like appointed judge to his people, so like appointed judge to his people, so like appointed by the Lord, by the Lord, by the Lord, is sort of singing this the song of is sort of singing this the song of is sort of singing this the song of praise like celebrating the victory.

praise like celebrating the victory. praise like celebrating the victory. And at one point she says, "Have they And at one point she says, "Have they And at one point she says, "Have they dis- divide the spoils? A woman or two dis- divide the spoils? A woman or two dis- divide the spoils? A woman or two for every man." for every man." for every man." And I thought, "Oh, I'm having like a And I thought, "Oh, I'm having like a And I thought, "Oh, I'm having like a dead rat experience here." dead rat experience here." dead rat experience here." Because this isn't just like a bad thing Because this isn't just like a bad thing Because this isn't just like a bad thing that happened in the Old Testament and that happened in the Old Testament and that happened in the Old Testament and there are many sinful things and bad there are many sinful things and bad there are many sinful things and bad things that happened in the Old things that happened in the Old things that happened in the Old Testament. Testament. Testament. I know that in ancient warfare context I know that in ancient warfare context I know that in ancient warfare context and tragically in many modern ones as and tragically in many modern ones as and tragically in many modern ones as well, that conquering armies will often well, that conquering armies will often well, that conquering armies will often often rape the conquered women. often rape the conquered women. often rape the conquered women. Um but here we have, you know, God's Um but here we have, you know, God's Um but here we have, you know, God's prophet prophet prophet talking about a woman or two for every talking about a woman or two for every talking about a woman or two for every every man. Like what is even happening every man. Like what is even happening every man. Like what is even happening here? here? here? And I spent a few hours sort of trying And I spent a few hours sort of trying And I spent a few hours sort of trying to pretend it wasn't there. And then I to pretend it wasn't there. And then I to pretend it wasn't there. And then I texted Rachel and I said, texted Rachel and I said, texted Rachel and I said, "I'm having a really hard time with this "I'm having a really hard time with this "I'm having a really hard time with this little verse that I didn't really want little verse that I didn't really want little verse that I didn't really want to look at again." to look at again." to look at again." And she said, "Oh, And she said, "Oh, And she said, "Oh, Deborah is Deborah is Deborah is putting those words into the mouth of putting those words into the mouth of putting those words into the mouth of Sisera, the the conquered general, like Sisera, the the conquered general, like Sisera, the the conquered general, like enemy general's mother. enemy general's mother. enemy general's mother. That she he Deborah's imagining her That she he Deborah's imagining her That she he Deborah's imagining her waiting for her son to come back waiting for her son to come back waiting for her son to come back victorious. Like, oh, you know, have victorious. Like, oh, you know, have victorious. Like, oh, you know, have they divided the spoils? A woman or two they divided the spoils? A woman or two they divided the spoils? A woman or two for every man. Like, this is normal for every man. Like, this is normal for every man. Like, this is normal conquest behavior.

conquest behavior. conquest behavior. And I thought, oh, I had like And I thought, oh, I had like And I thought, oh, I had like properly failed to read that verse in properly failed to read that verse in properly failed to read that verse in context at all. context at all. context at all. Um and I got I got tripped up on it and Um and I got I got tripped up on it and Um and I got I got tripped up on it and so I had wanted to look less and in fact so I had wanted to look less and in fact so I had wanted to look less and in fact I needed to look more. I needed to look more. I needed to look more. Because what was actually being said Because what was actually being said Because what was actually being said there was quite the opposite of what I there was quite the opposite of what I there was quite the opposite of what I thought was being said. thought was being said. thought was being said. So, I'm just sort of telling that as a So, I'm just sort of telling that as a So, I'm just sort of telling that as a story. I guess there's all of us who've story. I guess there's all of us who've story. I guess there's all of us who've been there one way or another. I've been been there one way or another. I've been been there one way or another. I've been there quite recently and I needed my there quite recently and I needed my there quite recently and I needed my friend who knows the Bible better than I friend who knows the Bible better than I friend who knows the Bible better than I do to like dig me out of my own do to like dig me out of my own do to like dig me out of my own foolishness. foolishness. foolishness. >> Bottom line, we all need Rachel Gilson >> Bottom line, we all need Rachel Gilson >> Bottom line, we all need Rachel Gilson on speed dial. So, on speed dial. So, on speed dial. So, you know, do what you can. Speaking of you know, do what you can. Speaking of you know, do what you can. Speaking of having you on speed dial, having you on speed dial, having you on speed dial, uh there is a long history uh there is a long history uh there is a long history >> I don't think speed dial's even a thing >> I don't think speed dial's even a thing >> I don't think speed dial's even a thing anymore, Mary. anymore, Mary. anymore, Mary. >> uh >> uh >> uh you're 40, I'm 44, but one of us is 46. you're 40, I'm 44, but one of us is 46. you're 40, I'm 44, but one of us is 46. >> So, don't you make fun of me for being >> So, don't you make fun of me for being >> So, don't you make fun of me for being an old lady. That's the one in the an old lady. That's the one in the an old lady. That's the one in the middle. middle. middle. Uh nice try though. Back to you, Rachel. Uh nice try though. Back to you, Rachel. Uh nice try though. Back to you, Rachel. Uh so, there's a long history in the Uh so, there's a long history in the Uh so, there's a long history in the church, sadly, of trying to understand church, sadly, of trying to understand church, sadly, of trying to understand uh and reconcile some of the perceived uh and reconcile some of the perceived uh and reconcile some of the perceived problems of warfare in the Old Testament problems of warfare in the Old Testament problems of warfare in the Old Testament with the New Testament and sometimes with the New Testament and sometimes with the New Testament and sometimes there even been heresies where folks there even been heresies where folks there even been heresies where folks have said that there's a so-called God have said that there's a so-called God have said that there's a so-called God of the Old Testament, pitting that of the Old Testament, pitting that of the Old Testament, pitting that so-called God against the so-called God so-called God against the so-called God so-called God against the so-called God of the New Testament. So, there's a long of the New Testament. So, there's a long of the New Testament. So, there's a long history of trying to solve that problem history of trying to solve that problem history of trying to solve that problem with these difficult passages in that

with these difficult passages in that with these difficult passages in that way. Can you share with us a bit about way. Can you share with us a bit about way. Can you share with us a bit about your experiences in that and give us your experiences in that and give us your experiences in that and give us some thoughts from the scriptures about some thoughts from the scriptures about some thoughts from the scriptures about how do we reconcile this? how do we reconcile this? how do we reconcile this? >> Yeah, it's important because when we >> Yeah, it's important because when we >> Yeah, it's important because when we encounter, you know, like the Canaanite encounter, you know, like the Canaanite encounter, you know, like the Canaanite conquest text, we we're like, oh, that conquest text, we we're like, oh, that conquest text, we we're like, oh, that seems really hard." And so, it could be seems really hard." And so, it could be seems really hard." And so, it could be a quicker, lazy solution to be like, a quicker, lazy solution to be like, a quicker, lazy solution to be like, "Well, that doesn't look like Jesus, so "Well, that doesn't look like Jesus, so "Well, that doesn't look like Jesus, so maybe I should just let it go." But maybe I should just let it go." But maybe I should just let it go." But again, like Rebecca said, we always need again, like Rebecca said, we always need again, like Rebecca said, we always need to read closer, read more, not pull to read closer, read more, not pull to read closer, read more, not pull away. away. away. It's really important, for example, when It's really important, for example, when It's really important, for example, when we consider the conquest texts, that's we consider the conquest texts, that's we consider the conquest texts, that's not God just randomly killing innocent not God just randomly killing innocent not God just randomly killing innocent people. He doesn't just wake up angry people. He doesn't just wake up angry people. He doesn't just wake up angry and be like, "I'm just going to smite and be like, "I'm just going to smite and be like, "I'm just going to smite some folks." This was some folks." This was some folks." This was particularly God had patiently borne particularly God had patiently borne particularly God had patiently borne sinful behavior of a particular people, sinful behavior of a particular people, sinful behavior of a particular people, and he was judging them. He was judging and he was judging them. He was judging and he was judging them. He was judging evil using his people, Israel. evil using his people, Israel. evil using his people, Israel. So, it was a judicial act. It was not So, it was a judicial act. It was not So, it was a judicial act. It was not random, arbitrary, or the killing of random, arbitrary, or the killing of random, arbitrary, or the killing of innocents.

innocents. innocents. And it's not like God was playing And it's not like God was playing And it's not like God was playing favoritism. Like, he uses Israel to mete favoritism. Like, he uses Israel to mete favoritism. Like, he uses Israel to mete out judgment, but he's never going to out judgment, but he's never going to out judgment, but he's never going to judge Israel. No, Israel, as well, fell judge Israel. No, Israel, as well, fell judge Israel. No, Israel, as well, fell into centuries of disobedience, and God into centuries of disobedience, and God into centuries of disobedience, and God used another nation to come and bring used another nation to come and bring used another nation to come and bring justice to them. justice to them. justice to them. Part of what we see in this pattern is Part of what we see in this pattern is Part of what we see in this pattern is God is always caring about evil. He God is always caring about evil. He God is always caring about evil. He knows that it is unjust and needs to be knows that it is unjust and needs to be knows that it is unjust and needs to be punished. And so, you think, "Well, does punished. And so, you think, "Well, does punished. And so, you think, "Well, does that theme go away when we go to the New that theme go away when we go to the New that theme go away when we go to the New Testament?" Certainly not. And in fact, Testament?" Certainly not. And in fact, Testament?" Certainly not. And in fact, when when when when any of us have experienced evil when any of us have experienced evil when any of us have experienced evil committed against us, or we see evil in committed against us, or we see evil in committed against us, or we see evil in the world, we know intuitively the world, we know intuitively the world, we know intuitively that it has to be punished, that it that it has to be punished, that it that it has to be punished, that it needs to be dealt with. When we get to needs to be dealt with. When we get to needs to be dealt with. When we get to the New Testament, we finally see the New Testament, we finally see the New Testament, we finally see how God deals with this. Because when how God deals with this. Because when how God deals with this. Because when you recognize evil, our question stops you recognize evil, our question stops you recognize evil, our question stops being, "Why did he being, "Why did he being, "Why did he mete out justice in that time, or in mete out justice in that time, or in mete out justice in that time, or in this particular place, or there?" When this particular place, or there?" When this particular place, or there?" When you see how pervasive evil is, you you see how pervasive evil is, you you see how pervasive evil is, you wonder, wonder, wonder, "Why isn't he meeting out justice "Why isn't he meeting out justice "Why isn't he meeting out justice constantly? How can any of this stand?"

constantly? How can any of this stand?" constantly? How can any of this stand?" So, we see in Christ's death on the So, we see in Christ's death on the So, we see in Christ's death on the cross, God's response cross, God's response cross, God's response to injustice, God's response to evil. He to injustice, God's response to evil. He to injustice, God's response to evil. He took upon himself and violently died and took upon himself and violently died and took upon himself and violently died and suffered to bear our sins suffered to bear our sins suffered to bear our sins so that we could be forgiven, so that we so that we could be forgiven, so that we so that we could be forgiven, so that we could be healed, because could be healed, because could be healed, because our evil was never going to be swept our evil was never going to be swept our evil was never going to be swept under the carpet. It had to be dealt under the carpet. It had to be dealt under the carpet. It had to be dealt with, so God dealt with it in the cross. with, so God dealt with it in the cross. with, so God dealt with it in the cross. And Jesus warns about this constantly. And Jesus warns about this constantly. And Jesus warns about this constantly. The New Testament warns about this The New Testament warns about this The New Testament warns about this constantly. If you do not hide yourself constantly. If you do not hide yourself constantly. If you do not hide yourself in Jesus, who has borne your punishment in Jesus, who has borne your punishment in Jesus, who has borne your punishment for you, you will meet it when God comes for you, you will meet it when God comes for you, you will meet it when God comes again and there is a final judgment. again and there is a final judgment. again and there is a final judgment. The God of the Old Testament was The God of the Old Testament was The God of the Old Testament was punishing evil. The God of the New punishing evil. The God of the New punishing evil. The God of the New Testament is judging evil. And that's Testament is judging evil. And that's Testament is judging evil. And that's why the warnings about hell are so why the warnings about hell are so why the warnings about hell are so urgent and so important. If we do not urgent and so important. If we do not urgent and so important. If we do not hide ourselves in Jesus, if our hide ourselves in Jesus, if our hide ourselves in Jesus, if our neighbors don't hide themselves in neighbors don't hide themselves in neighbors don't hide themselves in Jesus, they will face God's wrath. God Jesus, they will face God's wrath. God Jesus, they will face God's wrath. God is the same. He must punish evil, but is the same. He must punish evil, but is the same. He must punish evil, but God's grace is more and his mercy is God's grace is more and his mercy is God's grace is more and his mercy is more. That's why the call to come to more. That's why the call to come to more. That's why the call to come to Christ by faith alone is repeatedly held Christ by faith alone is repeatedly held Christ by faith alone is repeatedly held out, repeatedly offered to us and to all out, repeatedly offered to us and to all out, repeatedly offered to us and to all people, because God doesn't want us people, because God doesn't want us people, because God doesn't want us to face him outside of Christ. We are to face him outside of Christ. We are to face him outside of Christ. We are only safe facing him in Christ.

only safe facing him in Christ. only safe facing him in Christ. >> And when we recognize that, and we read >> And when we recognize that, and we read >> And when we recognize that, and we read the Old Testament through that lens, a the Old Testament through that lens, a the Old Testament through that lens, a lot of things start to make sense. lot of things start to make sense. lot of things start to make sense. So, one of the Old Testament books So, one of the Old Testament books So, one of the Old Testament books that's can be really challenging in this that's can be really challenging in this that's can be really challenging in this area is Joshua. area is Joshua. area is Joshua. And it's fascinating. We In Sunday And it's fascinating. We In Sunday And it's fascinating. We In Sunday school, kids learn about the walls of school, kids learn about the walls of school, kids learn about the walls of Jericho coming tumbling down, right? We Jericho coming tumbling down, right? We Jericho coming tumbling down, right? We sort of sanitize it. We're like, "Oh, sort of sanitize it. We're like, "Oh, sort of sanitize it. We're like, "Oh, and they blew the trumpets and the walls and they blew the trumpets and the walls and they blew the trumpets and the walls came down." And end of story, lovely, came down." And end of story, lovely, came down." And end of story, lovely, isn't that great? isn't that great? isn't that great? If you If you read Joshua, you see, you If you If you read Joshua, you see, you If you If you read Joshua, you see, you know, God's sending uh judgment on know, God's sending uh judgment on know, God's sending uh judgment on Jericho through his people. Jericho through his people. Jericho through his people. Uh and you see a a devoting to Uh and you see a a devoting to Uh and you see a a devoting to destruction of that of that city. destruction of that of that city. destruction of that of that city. Except Except Except for Rahab. for Rahab. for Rahab. Because prior to that, Because prior to that, Because prior to that, Joshua had sent spies to Jericho. Joshua had sent spies to Jericho. Joshua had sent spies to Jericho. They'd been they'd gone to Rahab, who They'd been they'd gone to Rahab, who They'd been they'd gone to Rahab, who was the a prostitute, a Canaanite was the a prostitute, a Canaanite was the a prostitute, a Canaanite prostitute. So, like, couldn't have been prostitute. So, like, couldn't have been prostitute. So, like, couldn't have been so in category terms that are further so in category terms that are further so in category terms that are further from God's people. from God's people. from God's people. And how does Rahab respond?

And how does Rahab respond? And how does Rahab respond? She says, "I recognize that you guys are She says, "I recognize that you guys are She says, "I recognize that you guys are serving the true God. serving the true God. serving the true God. And I want to be count like I want to be And I want to be count like I want to be And I want to be count like I want to be on your side when the judgment comes. on your side when the judgment comes. on your side when the judgment comes. Like, please promise me Like, please promise me Like, please promise me that I and my family will be will be that I and my family will be will be that I and my family will be will be protected cuz I know I've heard about protected cuz I know I've heard about protected cuz I know I've heard about who God is, I recognize who he is, and I who God is, I recognize who he is, and I who God is, I recognize who he is, and I want to be on on the Lord's side when want to be on on the Lord's side when want to be on on the Lord's side when the judgment comes." And and she and her the judgment comes." And and she and her the judgment comes." And and she and her family are saved. family are saved. family are saved. And then we have the contrast And then we have the contrast And then we have the contrast with Achan, with Achan, with Achan, who was in God's people, he's an who was in God's people, he's an who was in God's people, he's an Israelite, but he disobeyed God, he took Israelite, but he disobeyed God, he took Israelite, but he disobeyed God, he took some of the devoted things, hid them in some of the devoted things, hid them in some of the devoted things, hid them in his own sort of tent. And what happens his own sort of tent. And what happens his own sort of tent. And what happens to him? to him? to him? He and his He and his He and his whole family are judged. whole family are judged. whole family are judged. So, we see even So, we see even So, we see even in the book of Joshua, we see like in the book of Joshua, we see like in the book of Joshua, we see like trust now in trust now in trust now in the God of all the universe, who is the the God of all the universe, who is the the God of all the universe, who is the true and living God, who is the one who true and living God, who is the one who true and living God, who is the one who will bring judgment, and and like hide will bring judgment, and and like hide will bring judgment, and and like hide yourself yourself yourself in Christ, as Rachel's been pointing us in Christ, as Rachel's been pointing us in Christ, as Rachel's been pointing us to, and then when the judgment comes, to, and then when the judgment comes, to, and then when the judgment comes, you are safe. you are safe. you are safe. It It It So much of the Old Testament starts to So much of the Old Testament starts to So much of the Old Testament starts to make sense through the light of the make sense through the light of the make sense through the light of the gospel. Likewise, so much of the New gospel. Likewise, so much of the New gospel. Likewise, so much of the New Testament makes sense the more you Testament makes sense the more you Testament makes sense the more you understand of the the Old Testament.

understand of the the Old Testament. understand of the the Old Testament. As we look at all of these things, if we As we look at all of these things, if we As we look at all of these things, if we lean into what the scriptures are lean into what the scriptures are lean into what the scriptures are telling us and and understand more of telling us and and understand more of telling us and and understand more of them and read them more in context, them and read them more in context, them and read them more in context, they start to make a they start to make a they start to make a a deep and profound and gospel-oriented a deep and profound and gospel-oriented a deep and profound and gospel-oriented sense, sense, sense, which if we increasingly shy away from which if we increasingly shy away from which if we increasingly shy away from them, we're just not going to be able to them, we're just not going to be able to them, we're just not going to be able to see. see. see. >> And when you say in context, obviously a >> And when you say in context, obviously a >> And when you say in context, obviously a key aspect of that is recognizing the key aspect of that is recognizing the key aspect of that is recognizing the progressive revelation of God's progressive revelation of God's progressive revelation of God's salvation purposes beginning in the salvation purposes beginning in the salvation purposes beginning in the garden all the way through Christ to the garden all the way through Christ to the garden all the way through Christ to the new heavens and earth. So, God the God new heavens and earth. So, God the God new heavens and earth. So, God the God of the Old Testament New Testament is of the Old Testament New Testament is of the Old Testament New Testament is the same God, the same God, the same God, but he's dealing in the Old Testament, but he's dealing in the Old Testament, but he's dealing in the Old Testament, the old covenant age, in a manner that the old covenant age, in a manner that the old covenant age, in a manner that is preparing God's people for the Lord is preparing God's people for the Lord is preparing God's people for the Lord Jesus Christ, which is different Jesus Christ, which is different Jesus Christ, which is different than his dealings in the new covenant than his dealings in the new covenant than his dealings in the new covenant age. age. age. Let's say that one of you has a friend Let's say that one of you has a friend Let's say that one of you has a friend that you have a relationship with who's that you have a relationship with who's that you have a relationship with who's not a believer. not a believer. not a believer. >> nice. You know we don't have friends. >> nice. You know we don't have friends. >> nice. You know we don't have friends. >> right. That's why you all hang out so >> right. That's why you all hang out so >> right. That's why you all hang out so much. much. much. Don't have many options.

Don't have many options. Don't have many options. So, let's say you have a friend, um just So, let's say you have a friend, um just So, let's say you have a friend, um just use your sanctified imagination, and um use your sanctified imagination, and um use your sanctified imagination, and um she's not a believer, she's not a believer, she's not a believer, and in the course of a conversation with and in the course of a conversation with and in the course of a conversation with you, she says, "I don't believe that you, she says, "I don't believe that you, she says, "I don't believe that Christianity is true, good, or beautiful Christianity is true, good, or beautiful Christianity is true, good, or beautiful because the Bible sanctions genocide." because the Bible sanctions genocide." because the Bible sanctions genocide." Would you respond to her just the way Would you respond to her just the way Would you respond to her just the way you articulated now? Might there be you articulated now? Might there be you articulated now? Might there be something else you might say? How might something else you might say? How might something else you might say? How might you respond to that friend? What might you respond to that friend? What might you respond to that friend? What might your strategy be in that conversation? your strategy be in that conversation? your strategy be in that conversation? >> I mean, one of the things I'd say, it's >> I mean, one of the things I'd say, it's >> I mean, one of the things I'd say, it's actually analogous to the questions actually analogous to the questions actually analogous to the questions about rape. about rape. about rape. Where did my friend who does not Where did my friend who does not Where did my friend who does not consider herself a Christian at all, consider herself a Christian at all, consider herself a Christian at all, where did she get the idea that genocide where did she get the idea that genocide where did she get the idea that genocide is wrong? is wrong? is wrong? Because, you know, go back to the Because, you know, go back to the Because, you know, go back to the Greco-Roman Empire or go back to the Greco-Roman Empire or go back to the Greco-Roman Empire or go back to the ancient world and conquering your ancient world and conquering your ancient world and conquering your enemies and completely destroying them, enemies and completely destroying them, enemies and completely destroying them, that was a great day. that was a great day. that was a great day. Nobody was worrying about the the women Nobody was worrying about the the women Nobody was worrying about the the women and children of your con- conquered and children of your con- conquered and children of your con- conquered foes. In fact, like, great, take them I foes. In fact, like, great, take them I foes. In fact, like, great, take them I mean the the so many mean the the so many mean the the so many so many ways in which they could be uh so many ways in which they could be uh so many ways in which they could be uh abused and exploited, and that was all abused and exploited, and that was all abused and exploited, and that was all A-OK.

A-OK. A-OK. So, where did we get this idea that the So, where did we get this idea that the So, where did we get this idea that the lives of of enemies matter? lives of of enemies matter? lives of of enemies matter? Well, we actually got it from the Bible. Well, we actually got it from the Bible. Well, we actually got it from the Bible. And this idea that all humans are made And this idea that all humans are made And this idea that all humans are made in the image of God and that actually we in the image of God and that actually we in the image of God and that actually we were were were worth Jesus coming to die for and the worth Jesus coming to die for and the worth Jesus coming to die for and the extraordinary teachings of this extraordinary teachings of this extraordinary teachings of this first-century Jewish man who never led a first-century Jewish man who never led a first-century Jewish man who never led a an army or ruled an empire or even wrote an army or ruled an empire or even wrote an army or ruled an empire or even wrote a book a book a book who now by any measure has been the most who now by any measure has been the most who now by any measure has been the most influential thinker in all of human influential thinker in all of human influential thinker in all of human history and who or at least Christian history and who or at least Christian history and who or at least Christian friends are getting like half their friends are getting like half their friends are getting like half their ethics from. That's why they're ethics from. That's why they're ethics from. That's why they're concerned about genocide, seeming concerned about genocide, seeming concerned about genocide, seeming genocide in the old in the Old genocide in the old in the Old genocide in the old in the Old Testament. So So I'd probably want to Testament. So So I'd probably want to Testament. So So I'd probably want to kind of gently probe where they had got kind of gently probe where they had got kind of gently probe where they had got that right assumption from that genocide that right assumption from that genocide that right assumption from that genocide is wrong. is wrong. is wrong. And I would want to point them to this And I would want to point them to this And I would want to point them to this first-century thinker first-century thinker first-century thinker who said that we should love our who said that we should love our who said that we should love our enemies. enemies. enemies. Completely radical, extraordinary idea. Completely radical, extraordinary idea. Completely radical, extraordinary idea. And yet one that he didn't just say but And yet one that he didn't just say but And yet one that he didn't just say but actually did in the most actually did in the most actually did in the most sacrificial, beautiful, world-changing sacrificial, beautiful, world-changing sacrificial, beautiful, world-changing way.

way. way. >> Anything you might add, Rachel, with >> Anything you might add, Rachel, with >> Anything you might add, Rachel, with your friend? your friend? your friend? >> Yeah. If I had a friend, I might >> Yeah. If I had a friend, I might >> Yeah. If I had a friend, I might I think what's really important to I think what's really important to I think what's really important to remember, too, anytime I've got a friend remember, too, anytime I've got a friend remember, too, anytime I've got a friend who's coming to me with these hard who's coming to me with these hard who's coming to me with these hard questions, questions, questions, Christianity is only good, true, and Christianity is only good, true, and Christianity is only good, true, and beautiful because Jesus is good, true, beautiful because Jesus is good, true, beautiful because Jesus is good, true, and beautiful. So even if I have someone and beautiful. So even if I have someone and beautiful. So even if I have someone in my life who seems aggressively in my life who seems aggressively in my life who seems aggressively opposed to God, opposed to God, opposed to God, I've been told in God's word, my enemy I've been told in God's word, my enemy I've been told in God's word, my enemy is not flesh and blood. is not flesh and blood. is not flesh and blood. My enemy is spiritual. Like my neighbors My enemy is spiritual. Like my neighbors My enemy is spiritual. Like my neighbors who think that Christianity is hateful who think that Christianity is hateful who think that Christianity is hateful and ugly and broken, they are captured. and ugly and broken, they are captured. and ugly and broken, they are captured. They are enslaved by their sin and by They are enslaved by their sin and by They are enslaved by their sin and by false ideology. false ideology. false ideology. And that ideology doesn't love them, you And that ideology doesn't love them, you And that ideology doesn't love them, you know what I mean? It didn't die for them know what I mean? It didn't die for them know what I mean? It didn't die for them like Jesus did. So I'm sitting across like Jesus did. So I'm sitting across like Jesus did. So I'm sitting across from someone who has real problems and from someone who has real problems and from someone who has real problems and real objections, I want to take those real objections, I want to take those real objections, I want to take those very seriously and I'm always going very seriously and I'm always going very seriously and I'm always going going to get it back to the person of going to get it back to the person of going to get it back to the person of Jesus because the gospel really is the Jesus because the gospel really is the Jesus because the gospel really is the power of salvation for everyone who power of salvation for everyone who power of salvation for everyone who believes. And most believes. And most believes. And most most of the best answers to the hardest most of the best answers to the hardest most of the best answers to the hardest questions come when you look through him questions come when you look through him questions come when you look through him because when you see who he is for us because when you see who he is for us because when you see who he is for us not just when he lived on this earth but not just when he lived on this earth but not just when he lived on this earth but who he continues to be for us who he continues to be for us who he continues to be for us interceding for us in heaven, praying interceding for us in heaven, praying interceding for us in heaven, praying for us, for us, for us, promising us that he's going to bring us promising us that he's going to bring us promising us that he's going to bring us all the way home. That that's what helps all the way home. That that's what helps all the way home. That that's what helps us and our neighbors get through some of us and our neighbors get through some of us and our neighbors get through some of these hardest questions. They shouldn't these hardest questions. They shouldn't these hardest questions. They shouldn't be shied away from. We've got to press be shied away from. We've got to press be shied away from. We've got to press in through love.

in through love. in through love. >> And even your story proves the fact >> And even your story proves the fact >> And even your story proves the fact you're reading a stolen book and you're you're reading a stolen book and you're you're reading a stolen book and you're you're reading a good argument but it you're reading a good argument but it you're reading a good argument but it wasn't the argument itself [snorts] that wasn't the argument itself [snorts] that wasn't the argument itself [snorts] that converted you. It was the Holy Spirit converted you. It was the Holy Spirit converted you. It was the Holy Spirit who regenerated your heart. who regenerated your heart. who regenerated your heart. So because of your So because of your So because of your belief and conviction of the truth, belief and conviction of the truth, belief and conviction of the truth, goodness, and beauty of the Lord Jesus goodness, and beauty of the Lord Jesus goodness, and beauty of the Lord Jesus and your belief and conviction that the and your belief and conviction that the and your belief and conviction that the spirit regenerates the heart, spirit regenerates the heart, spirit regenerates the heart, you're going to give your best arguments you're going to give your best arguments you're going to give your best arguments but it's not up to you to convince the but it's not up to you to convince the but it's not up to you to convince the person. person. person. And that takes the anxiety out of it. And that takes the anxiety out of it. And that takes the anxiety out of it. Well friends, thank you so much friends Well friends, thank you so much friends Well friends, thank you so much friends and real friends. and real friends. and real friends. Thank you so much for what you've shared Thank you so much for what you've shared Thank you so much for what you've shared with us. We've all benefited a lot. with us. We've all benefited a lot. with us. We've all benefited a lot. We're grateful for you. Thanks. God be We're grateful for you. Thanks. God be We're grateful for you. Thanks. God be with you all.