Pastor, Don’t Use the Pulpit Only to Call Out False Teaching

So, what would be some general advice So, what would be some general advice that you would give for leading wisely that you would give for leading wisely that you would give for leading wisely when conflict arises? when conflict arises? when conflict arises? >> Um >> Um >> Um first, let me give testimony to my first, let me give testimony to my first, let me give testimony to my pastors as as a boy, as a teenager, pastors as as a boy, as a teenager, pastors as as a boy, as a teenager, watching them. I grew up in a time of watching them. I grew up in a time of watching them. I grew up in a time of controversy. You had theological controversy. You had theological controversy. You had theological concerns over liberalism or concerns over liberalism or concerns over liberalism or neo-orthodoxy, neo-orthodoxy, neo-orthodoxy, and you had evangelical men doing it in and you had evangelical men doing it in and you had evangelical men doing it in the context of the Southern Presbyterian the context of the Southern Presbyterian the context of the Southern Presbyterian Church, uh a little bit of what would Church, uh a little bit of what would Church, uh a little bit of what would happen in the Southern Baptist happen in the Southern Baptist happen in the Southern Baptist Convention later in the in the Convention later in the in the Convention later in the in the conservative resurgence. And conservative resurgence. And conservative resurgence. And I grew up watching pastors that were I grew up watching pastors that were I grew up watching pastors that were involved in that conflict. And if I involved in that conflict. And if I involved in that conflict. And if I could just commend the pastors and not I could just commend the pastors and not I could just commend the pastors and not I didn't just get to see my pastor at my didn't just get to see my pastor at my didn't just get to see my pastor at my local church and then my pastor in the local church and then my pastor in the local church and then my pastor in the teenage years, but I got to see a lot of teenage years, but I got to see a lot of teenage years, but I got to see a lot of the leading evangelical ministers in the the leading evangelical ministers in the the leading evangelical ministers in the Southern Presbyterian Church because Southern Presbyterian Church because Southern Presbyterian Church because they came through my home. Uh they might they came through my home. Uh they might they came through my home. Uh they might be preaching a Bible conference at the be preaching a Bible conference at the be preaching a Bible conference at the church, or they might be there meeting church, or they might be there meeting church, or they might be there meeting as a part of a of a Presbytery meeting as a part of a of a Presbytery meeting as a part of a of a Presbytery meeting or something else. I got to see a lot of or something else. I got to see a lot of or something else. I got to see a lot of these men, hear a lot of these men, and these men, hear a lot of these men, and these men, hear a lot of these men, and they conducted themselves so well. There they conducted themselves so well. There they conducted themselves so well. There was there was no shrill denunciation was there was no shrill denunciation was there was no shrill denunciation going on from the pulpit. The pulpit was going on from the pulpit. The pulpit was going on from the pulpit. The pulpit was mainly edifying people in sound mainly edifying people in sound mainly edifying people in sound doctrine, pointing them to Christ, doctrine, pointing them to Christ, doctrine, pointing them to Christ, preaching to them the gospel. They would preaching to them the gospel. They would preaching to them the gospel. They would certainly take stands on things like the certainly take stands on things like the certainly take stands on things like the authority of the Bible, the deity of

authority of the Bible, the deity of authority of the Bible, the deity of Christ, things that we've talked about Christ, things that we've talked about Christ, things that we've talked about before, before, before, as we've had conversations, Matt, that as we've had conversations, Matt, that as we've had conversations, Matt, that are central things to the Christian are central things to the Christian are central things to the Christian faith and to a faithful Bible-believing faith and to a faithful Bible-believing faith and to a faithful Bible-believing evangelical ministry. They were solid as evangelical ministry. They were solid as evangelical ministry. They were solid as the day is long in that, but they were the day is long in that, but they were the day is long in that, but they were not unduly polemical in the tone and not unduly polemical in the tone and not unduly polemical in the tone and content that they struck from the content that they struck from the content that they struck from the pulpit. Even though in Presbytery and in pulpit. Even though in Presbytery and in pulpit. Even though in Presbytery and in other meetings, they were having to other meetings, they were having to other meetings, they were having to contend manfully for the faith. And I contend manfully for the faith. And I contend manfully for the faith. And I that was such a healthy environment to that was such a healthy environment to that was such a healthy environment to be in because if a pulpit is dominated be in because if a pulpit is dominated be in because if a pulpit is dominated primarily primarily primarily by the denunciation of our theological by the denunciation of our theological by the denunciation of our theological enemies, enemies, enemies, we will think that our biggest problem we will think that our biggest problem we will think that our biggest problem is them. is them. is them. And our biggest problem is always us. And our biggest problem is always us. And our biggest problem is always us. It's It's not even when there is a true It's It's not even when there is a true It's It's not even when there is a true us and them theologically, my biggest us and them theologically, my biggest us and them theologically, my biggest problem is always me, not the heretic problem is always me, not the heretic problem is always me, not the heretic that I'm I'm dealing with. that I'm I'm dealing with. that I'm I'm dealing with. >> As John Newton says, self-righteousness >> As John Newton says, self-righteousness >> As John Newton says, self-righteousness can feed off doctrines just as much as can feed off doctrines just as much as can feed off doctrines just as much as works.

works. works. >> Absolutely, it can. And so >> Absolutely, it can. And so >> Absolutely, it can. And so I thank thank the Lord. And I bet I bet I thank thank the Lord. And I bet I bet I thank thank the Lord. And I bet I bet there are lots of Southern Baptist that there are lots of Southern Baptist that there are lots of Southern Baptist that could give this a similar kind of could give this a similar kind of could give this a similar kind of testimony to the way that their pastors testimony to the way that their pastors testimony to the way that their pastors conducted themselves during the conducted themselves during the conducted themselves during the conservative resurgence. I can give that conservative resurgence. I can give that conservative resurgence. I can give that testimony. And so they gave me a good testimony. And so they gave me a good testimony. And so they gave me a good model of a Look, there going to be some model of a Look, there going to be some model of a Look, there going to be some places places places where I have to take a stand, often where I have to take a stand, often where I have to take a stand, often against other pastors or other against other pastors or other against other pastors or other theologians on theological grounds. theologians on theological grounds. theologians on theological grounds. I'm I want to make sure that my people I'm I want to make sure that my people I'm I want to make sure that my people are aware of the issues. I want to make are aware of the issues. I want to make are aware of the issues. I want to make sure that my people are standing firm on sure that my people are standing firm on sure that my people are standing firm on the scriptures, but I'm not going to the scriptures, but I'm not going to the scriptures, but I'm not going to bring them into an undue and imbalanced bring them into an undue and imbalanced bring them into an undue and imbalanced ministry of denunciation and of and of ministry of denunciation and of and of ministry of denunciation and of and of polemics. And this Yeah, polemics. And this Yeah, polemics. And this Yeah, TGC has published that famous exchange TGC has published that famous exchange TGC has published that famous exchange between Martin Lloyd-Jones and the the between Martin Lloyd-Jones and the the between Martin Lloyd-Jones and the the minister in Canada who was a very famous minister in Canada who was a very famous minister in Canada who was a very famous controversialist. And Lloyd-Jones was controversialist. And Lloyd-Jones was controversialist. And Lloyd-Jones was just saying, "You're not going to edify just saying, "You're not going to edify just saying, "You're not going to edify your people if your ministry is your people if your ministry is your people if your ministry is primarily denunciation and polemic. You primarily denunciation and polemic. You primarily denunciation and polemic. You need to edify them positively with the need to edify them positively with the need to edify them positively with the exposition of the Bible and exposition of the Bible and exposition of the Bible and folks can look that up by the way. It's folks can look that up by the way. It's folks can look that up by the way. It's titled when Martin Lloyd-Jones titled when Martin Lloyd-Jones titled when Martin Lloyd-Jones confronted a pastor who loved confronted a pastor who loved confronted a pastor who loved controversy and denunciation.

controversy and denunciation. controversy and denunciation. Lloyd-Jones was no manby-pamby minister. Lloyd-Jones was no manby-pamby minister. Lloyd-Jones was no manby-pamby minister. He stood up on his hind legs and fought He stood up on his hind legs and fought He stood up on his hind legs and fought on the important things. Praise God and on the important things. Praise God and on the important things. Praise God and and Spurgeon did the same thing but and Spurgeon did the same thing but and Spurgeon did the same thing but nobody would have guessed Spurgeon's nobody would have guessed Spurgeon's nobody would have guessed Spurgeon's ministry was a ministry of denunciation. ministry was a ministry of denunciation. ministry was a ministry of denunciation. It was a positive ministry of exposition It was a positive ministry of exposition It was a positive ministry of exposition where you built people's foundations of where you built people's foundations of where you built people's foundations of faith in Christ in the gospel in God's faith in Christ in the gospel in God's faith in Christ in the gospel in God's word not in those guys are bad over word not in those guys are bad over word not in those guys are bad over there and boy he did he have to contend there and boy he did he have to contend there and boy he did he have to contend in the downgrade controversy with others in the downgrade controversy with others in the downgrade controversy with others but but the the the warp and woof of his but but the the the warp and woof of his but but the the the warp and woof of his ministry was edification and ministry was edification and ministry was edification and sanctification and proclamation of the sanctification and proclamation of the sanctification and proclamation of the gospel. And so I think that's if if the gospel. And so I think that's if if the gospel. And so I think that's if if the controversy that we're dealing with is a controversy that we're dealing with is a controversy that we're dealing with is a theological controversy and all of us theological controversy and all of us theological controversy and all of us those things those things those things they don't just come in one generation they don't just come in one generation they don't just come in one generation and go away. We'll we'll have to deal and go away. We'll we'll have to deal and go away. We'll we'll have to deal with those kinds of things. We've you with those kinds of things. We've you with those kinds of things. We've you know, I've I've seen a series of things know, I've I've seen a series of things know, I've I've seen a series of things come on in evangelicalism many years come on in evangelicalism many years come on in evangelicalism many years ago, maybe 20 years ago. We were dealing ago, maybe 20 years ago. We were dealing ago, maybe 20 years ago. We were dealing with open theism in evangelicalism and with open theism in evangelicalism and with open theism in evangelicalism and do I want my people to be open theists?

do I want my people to be open theists? do I want my people to be open theists? No. I I want them to believe in the No. I I want them to believe in the No. I I want them to believe in the providence of God and the foreknowledge providence of God and the foreknowledge providence of God and the foreknowledge of God and I want them to take comfort of God and I want them to take comfort of God and I want them to take comfort in the sovereignty of God and I don't in the sovereignty of God and I don't in the sovereignty of God and I don't want them to grab on to the latest goofy want them to grab on to the latest goofy want them to grab on to the latest goofy trend even if it's coming out of trend even if it's coming out of trend even if it's coming out of evangelical quarters but am I going to evangelical quarters but am I going to evangelical quarters but am I going to do a sermon series that probably not. I do a sermon series that probably not. I do a sermon series that probably not. I you know, I might do you know, I might do you know, I might do >> to hear my joke about open theism? >> to hear my joke about open theism? >> to hear my joke about open theism? >> would love to hear this. >> would love to hear this. >> would love to hear this. >> Open theism has no future. >> Open theism has no future. >> Open theism has no future. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Ouch. >> Ouch. >> Ouch. >> It's not very good. >> It's not very good. >> It's not very good. >> Ouch. >> Ouch. >> Ouch. >> But we're not a comedy podcast. >> But we're not a comedy podcast. >> But we're not a comedy podcast. >> Or it's there is no future, right? >> Or it's there is no future, right? >> Or it's there is no future, right? The future doesn't exist yet. The future doesn't exist yet. The future doesn't exist yet. >> That's exactly >> That's exactly >> That's exactly >> So >> So >> So there going to be things that come along there going to be things that come along there going to be things that come along like that that require us to engage like that that require us to engage like that that require us to engage theologically and require us to take theologically and require us to take theologically and require us to take some hits, but we we don't want our some hits, but we we don't want our some hits, but we we don't want our people to become people that love people to become people that love people to become people that love finding out the things that other people finding out the things that other people finding out the things that other people are doing wrong. are doing wrong. are doing wrong. They they need to be far more concerned They they need to be far more concerned They they need to be far more concerned about making sure that their own hearts about making sure that their own hearts about making sure that their own hearts are pliable to the spirit by the word are pliable to the spirit by the word are pliable to the spirit by the word than than picking out everything else than than picking out everything else than than picking out everything else wrong that somebody else is doing. So I wrong that somebody else is doing. So I wrong that somebody else is doing. So I thank God I had pastors that were both thank God I had pastors that were both thank God I had pastors that were both faithful, they contended for the faith faithful, they contended for the faith faithful, they contended for the faith where it needed to be contended for, but where it needed to be contended for, but where it needed to be contended for, but in their ministry to me, I mostly in their ministry to me, I mostly in their ministry to me, I mostly remember their edifying exposition that remember their edifying exposition that remember their edifying exposition that built me up in the truth. Now, one of built me up in the truth. Now, one of built me up in the truth. Now, one of the reasons in controversy that we have

the reasons in controversy that we have the reasons in controversy that we have to contend for that is so that that can to contend for that is so that that can to contend for that is so that that can be the way that most of the ministry of be the way that most of the ministry of be the way that most of the ministry of the church is being done. And so it's the church is being done. And so it's the church is being done. And so it's well worth, you know, our our well worth, you know, our our well worth, you know, our our forefathers in the forefathers in the forefathers in the the evangelicals in the Southern the evangelicals in the Southern the evangelicals in the Southern Presbyterian tradition or the Presbyterian tradition or the Presbyterian tradition or the evangelicals in the Southern Baptist evangelicals in the Southern Baptist evangelicals in the Southern Baptist Convention that were part of the Convention that were part of the Convention that were part of the conservative resurgence, they had to conservative resurgence, they had to conservative resurgence, they had to they had to take a lot of hits so that they had to take a lot of hits so that they had to take a lot of hits so that the bulk of the ministry of the church the bulk of the ministry of the church the bulk of the ministry of the church could be edifying. But could be edifying. But could be edifying. But we don't want to be so caught up in we don't want to be so caught up in we don't want to be so caught up in controversy that we turn our people into controversy that we turn our people into controversy that we turn our people into brutal controversialists. brutal controversialists. brutal controversialists. We want them to be whole, godly, We want them to be whole, godly, We want them to be whole, godly, faithful, steady, loving people that faithful, steady, loving people that faithful, steady, loving people that aren't blown around by the winds of aren't blown around by the winds of aren't blown around by the winds of doctrine, but are also aren't on a doctrine, but are also aren't on a doctrine, but are also aren't on a heresy hunt, you know, every waking heresy hunt, you know, every waking heresy hunt, you know, every waking moment. moment. moment. >> Yeah, I've heard you use before the >> Yeah, I've heard you use before the >> Yeah, I've heard you use before the adverb manfully. There's something about adverb manfully. There's something about adverb manfully. There's something about the role of elders as fathers in the the role of elders as fathers in the the role of elders as fathers in the household of faith, um where we are household of faith, um where we are household of faith, um where we are meant to guard and protect the sheep uh meant to guard and protect the sheep uh meant to guard and protect the sheep uh from wolves and from other threats. But, from wolves and from other threats. But, from wolves and from other threats. But, pastors need to really beware a heart pastors need to really beware a heart pastors need to really beware a heart that loves controversy.

that loves controversy. that loves controversy. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> To be clear, no faithful Christian, no >> To be clear, no faithful Christian, no >> To be clear, no faithful Christian, no faithful minister will be able to avoid faithful minister will be able to avoid faithful minister will be able to avoid controversy. But, beware a heart that controversy. But, beware a heart that controversy. But, beware a heart that relishes it because the kingdom of God relishes it because the kingdom of God relishes it because the kingdom of God is not a soap opera for our is not a soap opera for our is not a soap opera for our entertainment. And I I just think that entertainment. And I I just think that entertainment. And I I just think that honestly, sometimes we can think of honestly, sometimes we can think of honestly, sometimes we can think of ourselves as lovers of ourselves as lovers of ourselves as lovers of >> truth. >> truth. >> truth. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> When really, we've just become lovers of >> When really, we've just become lovers of >> When really, we've just become lovers of controversy. And I think sometimes the controversy. And I think sometimes the controversy. And I think sometimes the reason we become lovers of controversy, reason we become lovers of controversy, reason we become lovers of controversy, frankly, Lig, frankly, Lig, frankly, Lig, is because we've grown bored with Jesus. is because we've grown bored with Jesus. is because we've grown bored with Jesus. The The The thing that used to animate The The The thing that used to animate The The The thing that used to animate us, the the gospel of grace and the us, the the gospel of grace and the us, the the gospel of grace and the glory of substitutionary atonement, and glory of substitutionary atonement, and glory of substitutionary atonement, and the hope of a better world to come, that the hope of a better world to come, that the hope of a better world to come, that kind of stuff can start to feel like old kind of stuff can start to feel like old kind of stuff can start to feel like old news to our hearts. And so, we're more news to our hearts. And so, we're more news to our hearts. And so, we're more allured and drawn by the latest twist allured and drawn by the latest twist allured and drawn by the latest twist and turn of a given controversy. and turn of a given controversy. and turn of a given controversy. >> That sparks in me yet another thought. I >> That sparks in me yet another thought. I >> That sparks in me yet another thought. I think one of the things that also think one of the things that also think one of the things that also helped, didn't cure me of that. I've had helped, didn't cure me of that. I've had helped, didn't cure me of that. I've had to fight against this over the course of to fight against this over the course of to fight against this over the course of my life and ministry, but it certainly my life and ministry, but it certainly my life and ministry, but it certainly warned my heart against it was just warned my heart against it was just warned my heart against it was just seeing the tears of godly men that I seeing the tears of godly men that I seeing the tears of godly men that I respected in controversy. They They were respected in controversy. They They were respected in controversy. They They were not triumphalist. They were not patting not triumphalist. They were not patting not triumphalist. They were not patting themselves on the back like they had all themselves on the back like they had all themselves on the back like they had all the answers and the other guys were the answers and the other guys were the answers and the other guys were completely wrong. They were tearful completely wrong. They were tearful completely wrong. They were tearful about it. They They cared about the about it. They They cared about the about it. They They cared about the unity of the church, but they did not

unity of the church, but they did not unity of the church, but they did not believe that they could compromise the believe that they could compromise the believe that they could compromise the truth of God for the sake of a sham truth of God for the sake of a sham truth of God for the sake of a sham unity, and it broke their hearts. And I unity, and it broke their hearts. And I unity, and it broke their hearts. And I I I I myself, because I got to see that I I I myself, because I got to see that I I I myself, because I got to see that in them, in them, in them, I I've been able to go back and look at I I've been able to go back and look at I I've been able to go back and look at that history and realize, that history and realize, that history and realize, you know, there were some There were you know, there were some There were you know, there were some There were some dear, dear saints that were on the some dear, dear saints that were on the some dear, dear saints that were on the wrong side of that controversy that I wrong side of that controversy that I wrong side of that controversy that I care about a lot and I have respect for. care about a lot and I have respect for. care about a lot and I have respect for. Um and and so, you know, if if we don't Um and and so, you know, if if we don't Um and and so, you know, if if we don't if we don't engage in controversy with a if we don't engage in controversy with a if we don't engage in controversy with a spirit of of heartbreak and and spirit of of heartbreak and and spirit of of heartbreak and and tearfulness, it's a that's a dangerous tearfulness, it's a that's a dangerous tearfulness, it's a that's a dangerous thing to this the triumphalism that can, thing to this the triumphalism that can, thing to this the triumphalism that can, you know, I'm right and you're wrong and you know, I'm right and you're wrong and you know, I'm right and you're wrong and that that that can be, as you were that that that can be, as you were that that that can be, as you were saying earlier, a a sense of saying earlier, a a sense of saying earlier, a a sense of self-justification self-justification self-justification that that my my justification rests in that that my my justification rests in that that my my justification rests in my rightness on this. And I think that my rightness on this. And I think that my rightness on this. And I think that can be lost in controversy where you can can be lost in controversy where you can can be lost in controversy where you can and I think that's maybe part of the and I think that's maybe part of the and I think that's maybe part of the story of what happened in parts of story of what happened in parts of story of what happened in parts of fundamentalism.

fundamentalism. fundamentalism. I would have been far more sympathetic I would have been far more sympathetic I would have been far more sympathetic with a with a fundamentalist of the with a with a fundamentalist of the with a with a fundamentalist of the early 20th century than I would have early 20th century than I would have early 20th century than I would have been with any of the of the theological been with any of the of the theological been with any of the of the theological liberalism that they were responding to. liberalism that they were responding to. liberalism that they were responding to. But when you're in an environment where But when you're in an environment where But when you're in an environment where the dominant thing is they're the enemy, the dominant thing is they're the enemy, the dominant thing is they're the enemy, you forget about the the dangers in your you forget about the the dangers in your you forget about the the dangers in your own heart. And and an edifying ministry own heart. And and an edifying ministry own heart. And and an edifying ministry is going to make sure that we're is going to make sure that we're is going to make sure that we're pointing the fingers at our own hearts pointing the fingers at our own hearts pointing the fingers at our own hearts even while we are warning people against even while we are warning people against even while we are warning people against errors that are going to send them down errors that are going to send them down errors that are going to send them down a bad pathway. It reminds me of Spurgeon a bad pathway. It reminds me of Spurgeon a bad pathway. It reminds me of Spurgeon saying, "When you're drawn into a saying, "When you're drawn into a saying, "When you're drawn into a controversy, use very hard arguments and controversy, use very hard arguments and controversy, use very hard arguments and very soft words." very soft words." very soft words." Because ultimately we're trying to win Because ultimately we're trying to win Because ultimately we're trying to win the person, not trying to destroy them, the person, not trying to destroy them, the person, not trying to destroy them, we're trying to win them as we, yes, we're trying to win them as we, yes, we're trying to win them as we, yes, courageously, valiantly try to attack courageously, valiantly try to attack courageously, valiantly try to attack wrong ideas. wrong ideas. wrong ideas. But we again need to be careful But we again need to be careful But we again need to be careful that we're not frankly looking for a that we're not frankly looking for a that we're not frankly looking for a rush rush rush that we used to get from meditating on that we used to get from meditating on that we used to get from meditating on the things of God and the glory of the things of God and the glory of the things of God and the glory of Christ and the beauty of the gospel Christ and the beauty of the gospel Christ and the beauty of the gospel that we're now having to find in just that we're now having to find in just that we're now having to find in just a form of street fighting. John Newton a form of street fighting. John Newton a form of street fighting. John Newton in one of his I already quoted him once, in one of his I already quoted him once, in one of his I already quoted him once, but he has an amazing letter called on but he has an amazing letter called on but he has an amazing letter called on controversy. We'll put it in the show controversy. We'll put it in the show controversy. We'll put it in the show notes.

notes. notes. It's not long. We would encourage It's not long. We would encourage It's not long. We would encourage listeners to to read John Newton's listeners to to read John Newton's listeners to to read John Newton's letter where he's giving a younger letter where he's giving a younger letter where he's giving a younger minister some advice for whether and how minister some advice for whether and how minister some advice for whether and how to wade into a painful controversy. And to wade into a painful controversy. And to wade into a painful controversy. And at one point he says, "What will it at one point he says, "What will it at one point he says, "What will it profit a man if he gain his cause and profit a man if he gain his cause and profit a man if he gain his cause and silence his adversary if at the same silence his adversary if at the same silence his adversary if at the same time he loses that humble tender frame time he loses that humble tender frame time he loses that humble tender frame of spirit in which the Lord delights?" of spirit in which the Lord delights?" of spirit in which the Lord delights?" >> Mhm.