Effective Church Administration (with Jamie Dunlop) [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 39]

You need to think about the the elers's You need to think about the the elers's vision. Their leadership is spiritual vision. Their leadership is spiritual vision. Their leadership is spiritual and spiritual leadership will involve and spiritual leadership will involve and spiritual leadership will involve administrative leadership. Uh you don't administrative leadership. Uh you don't administrative leadership. Uh you don't want to create two different bodies of want to create two different bodies of want to create two different bodies of power within the congregation. The power within the congregation. The power within the congregation. The elders lead uh and uh administration elders lead uh and uh administration elders lead uh and uh administration should follow. should follow. should follow. [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome back friends to the Everyday Welcome back friends to the Everyday Welcome back friends to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Smithst and I'm Lig Duncan. I'm Matt Smithst and I'm Lig Duncan. I'm Matt Smithst and I'm Lig Duncan. >> I serve here as a pastor in Richmond, >> I serve here as a pastor in Richmond, >> I serve here as a pastor in Richmond, Virginia, two hours north of me in our Virginia, two hours north of me in our Virginia, two hours north of me in our nation's capital. Uh is a brother and nation's capital. Uh is a brother and nation's capital. Uh is a brother and friend of both Ligs and mine. Uh Jamie friend of both Ligs and mine. Uh Jamie friend of both Ligs and mine. Uh Jamie Dunlop. Jamie is uh an associate pastor Dunlop. Jamie is uh an associate pastor Dunlop. Jamie is uh an associate pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC where he oversees Washington DC where he oversees Washington DC where he oversees administration and adult education as administration and adult education as administration and adult education as well as several nonprofits based at the well as several nonprofits based at the well as several nonprofits based at the church. He's the author of several church. He's the author of several church. He's the author of several really helpful books, The Compelling really helpful books, The Compelling really helpful books, The Compelling Community, Love the Ones Who Drive You Community, Love the Ones Who Drive You Community, Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy, Budgeting for a Healthy Church, Crazy, Budgeting for a Healthy Church, Crazy, Budgeting for a Healthy Church, and more. Uh and today we wanted to talk and more. Uh and today we wanted to talk and more. Uh and today we wanted to talk with Jamie uh in light of his nearly 20 with Jamie uh in light of his nearly 20 with Jamie uh in light of his nearly 20 years of experience in church years of experience in church years of experience in church administration about this topic. Jamie, administration about this topic. Jamie, administration about this topic. Jamie, thank you for coming on to the podcast.

thank you for coming on to the podcast. thank you for coming on to the podcast. >> Oh, it's a delight. Thank you so much. >> Oh, it's a delight. Thank you so much. >> Oh, it's a delight. Thank you so much. >> As I alluded to, we want to talk with >> As I alluded to, we want to talk with >> As I alluded to, we want to talk with you about something that causes many you about something that causes many you about something that causes many pastors, many everyday pastors to pastors, many everyday pastors to pastors, many everyday pastors to resign, and that is church resign, and that is church resign, and that is church administration. administration. administration. uh admin is important for a healthy uh admin is important for a healthy uh admin is important for a healthy church, but it it tends to uh creep in church, but it it tends to uh creep in church, but it it tends to uh creep in and kind of crowd out other important and kind of crowd out other important and kind of crowd out other important work if it's handled in a merely work if it's handled in a merely work if it's handled in a merely reactive way. Uh so we really want you reactive way. Uh so we really want you reactive way. Uh so we really want you to help everyday pastors listening in to help everyday pastors listening in to help everyday pastors listening in think creatively and efficiently about think creatively and efficiently about think creatively and efficiently about effective church admin. So Jamie, can effective church admin. So Jamie, can effective church admin. So Jamie, can you just start by describing uh a a you just start by describing uh a a you just start by describing uh a a biblical foundation for good church biblical foundation for good church biblical foundation for good church administration? Why is this a a administration? Why is this a a administration? Why is this a a spiritually important conversation to spiritually important conversation to spiritually important conversation to have? have? have? >> Yeah, I think the passage I would go to >> Yeah, I think the passage I would go to >> Yeah, I think the passage I would go to uh most quickly is Acts chapter 6. Uh uh most quickly is Acts chapter 6. Uh uh most quickly is Acts chapter 6. Uh because I I think you see the spiritual because I I think you see the spiritual because I I think you see the spiritual goals for administration well laid out goals for administration well laid out goals for administration well laid out there. Uh people I think are familiar there. Uh people I think are familiar there. Uh people I think are familiar with this passage. Uh it's really one of with this passage. Uh it's really one of with this passage. Uh it's really one of the first instances of conflict within the first instances of conflict within the first instances of conflict within the church. We see after the church in the church. We see after the church in the church. We see after the church in Jerusalem was founded uh there's a a Jerusalem was founded uh there's a a Jerusalem was founded uh there's a a complaint by the Greekeaking widows uh complaint by the Greekeaking widows uh complaint by the Greekeaking widows uh so they would have been Jews but so they would have been Jews but so they would have been Jews but Greekeaking Greekeaking Greekeaking uh that they were being neglected in uh that they were being neglected in uh that they were being neglected in what it says is a daily distribution so what it says is a daily distribution so what it says is a daily distribution so some kind of benevolence that they were some kind of benevolence that they were some kind of benevolence that they were doing. Uh this is probably a majority doing. Uh this is probably a majority doing. Uh this is probably a majority Hebrewspeaking or Aramaic speaking Hebrewspeaking or Aramaic speaking Hebrewspeaking or Aramaic speaking congregation. So you're looking at a a congregation. So you're looking at a a congregation. So you're looking at a a natural fault line. We know from

natural fault line. We know from natural fault line. We know from contemporary historians that uh these contemporary historians that uh these contemporary historians that uh these two groups had lots of challenges two groups had lots of challenges two groups had lots of challenges getting along. Uh there were political getting along. Uh there were political getting along. Uh there were political differences, cultural differences, differences, cultural differences, differences, cultural differences, linguistic differences. linguistic differences. linguistic differences. And um and so the apostles say, you And um and so the apostles say, you And um and so the apostles say, you know, gosh, this is a really big deal. know, gosh, this is a really big deal. know, gosh, this is a really big deal. Uh and it says they call the full number Uh and it says they call the full number Uh and it says they call the full number of disciples. So, you've got a members of disciples. So, you've got a members of disciples. So, you've got a members meeting here that uh presumably includes meeting here that uh presumably includes meeting here that uh presumably includes every single Christian on the planet. every single Christian on the planet. every single Christian on the planet. >> It's history's first mega church and >> It's history's first mega church and >> It's history's first mega church and history's first members meeting. history's first members meeting. history's first members meeting. >> There you go. Yes. Yeah. Maybe 5,000 uh >> There you go. Yes. Yeah. Maybe 5,000 uh >> There you go. Yes. Yeah. Maybe 5,000 uh maybe just 5,000 men and not including maybe just 5,000 men and not including maybe just 5,000 men and not including women and children. So, a large group women and children. So, a large group women and children. So, a large group here. Um here. Um here. Um and it's interesting, the apostles don't and it's interesting, the apostles don't and it's interesting, the apostles don't solve the problem. They don't say, "Hey, solve the problem. They don't say, "Hey, solve the problem. They don't say, "Hey, here's the problem. Here's what we're here's the problem. Here's what we're here's the problem. Here's what we're going to do about it." going to do about it." going to do about it." They don't even tell the congregation They don't even tell the congregation They don't even tell the congregation who's going to solve the problem. Uh who's going to solve the problem. Uh who's going to solve the problem. Uh what all they do is they give the what all they do is they give the what all they do is they give the congregation the number of people who congregation the number of people who congregation the number of people who will solve the problem. Uh they say um will solve the problem. Uh they say um will solve the problem. Uh they say um pick out from among you seven men of pick out from among you seven men of pick out from among you seven men of good repute full of the spirit of the good repute full of the spirit of the good repute full of the spirit of the wisdom whom we will appoint to this wisdom whom we will appoint to this wisdom whom we will appoint to this duty. And the congregation does that.

duty. And the congregation does that. duty. And the congregation does that. It's interesting how much there's a It's interesting how much there's a It's interesting how much there's a unity problem in the church and the unity problem in the church and the unity problem in the church and the apostles put the problem back in the lap apostles put the problem back in the lap apostles put the problem back in the lap of the church uh because they say we of the church uh because they say we of the church uh because they say we need to devote ourselves to the the need to devote ourselves to the the need to devote ourselves to the the prayer and the ministry of the word. We prayer and the ministry of the word. We prayer and the ministry of the word. We don't want to be distracted from our job don't want to be distracted from our job don't want to be distracted from our job as a the apostles I think are as a the apostles I think are as a the apostles I think are essentially serving as elders in the essentially serving as elders in the essentially serving as elders in the church. Uh though everything's kind of church. Uh though everything's kind of church. Uh though everything's kind of the primordial soup of the early church. the primordial soup of the early church. the primordial soup of the early church. So I don't you don't want to be too So I don't you don't want to be too So I don't you don't want to be too definitive on who's serving in what definitive on who's serving in what definitive on who's serving in what role. But what that means is that the role. But what that means is that the role. But what that means is that the first deacons uh first deacons uh first deacons uh who were selected by the congregation who were selected by the congregation who were selected by the congregation uh were there to serve as protectors of uh were there to serve as protectors of uh were there to serve as protectors of unity in the church through good unity in the church through good unity in the church through good administration. administration. administration. Uh and they were there to protect not Uh and they were there to protect not Uh and they were there to protect not just the unity of the church but the just the unity of the church but the just the unity of the church but the teaching of the apostles. Uh and so I teaching of the apostles. Uh and so I teaching of the apostles. Uh and so I very much I think it's a good way to very much I think it's a good way to very much I think it's a good way to think about administration. Uh good think about administration. Uh good think about administration. Uh good administration of the church has administration of the church has administration of the church has spiritual benefit and its spiritual spiritual benefit and its spiritual spiritual benefit and its spiritual benefit is to protect the unity of the benefit is to protect the unity of the benefit is to protect the unity of the church along whatever natural fault church along whatever natural fault church along whatever natural fault lines your church may have and to lines your church may have and to lines your church may have and to protect the teachers of the church uh protect the teachers of the church uh protect the teachers of the church uh from being distracted uh from the from being distracted uh from the from being distracted uh from the important ministry they have is as important ministry they have is as important ministry they have is as ministers of the word.

ministers of the word. ministers of the word. >> And one thing I love about uh Acts >> And one thing I love about uh Acts >> And one thing I love about uh Acts chapter 6 is how you see success in both chapter 6 is how you see success in both chapter 6 is how you see success in both of those realms. So why seven deacons? of those realms. So why seven deacons? of those realms. So why seven deacons? I've got to assume it's simply because, I've got to assume it's simply because, I've got to assume it's simply because, you know, it's it's a nice number. It's you know, it's it's a nice number. It's you know, it's it's a nice number. It's an odd number, which means that the an odd number, which means that the an odd number, which means that the apostles were depriving the church of apostles were depriving the church of apostles were depriving the church of the most obvious solution to the the most obvious solution to the the most obvious solution to the problem, which is a balanced committee problem, which is a balanced committee problem, which is a balanced committee of Helenist and Hebrew deacons. Uh they of Helenist and Hebrew deacons. Uh they of Helenist and Hebrew deacons. Uh they say you got to figure out who's in the say you got to figure out who's in the say you got to figure out who's in the majority. And when you look at the seven majority. And when you look at the seven majority. And when you look at the seven names that Luke gives us, and Luke is names that Luke gives us, and Luke is names that Luke gives us, and Luke is very careful in the material he chooses, very careful in the material he chooses, very careful in the material he chooses, it's interesting and notable that uh the it's interesting and notable that uh the it's interesting and notable that uh the seven are uh Greek names. uh which seven are uh Greek names. uh which seven are uh Greek names. uh which doesn't mean they were all Helenists, doesn't mean they were all Helenists, doesn't mean they were all Helenists, but it seems likely that this majority but it seems likely that this majority but it seems likely that this majority Hebrew church so valued unity that they Hebrew church so valued unity that they Hebrew church so valued unity that they entrusted their widows to the Helenist entrusted their widows to the Helenist entrusted their widows to the Helenist minority to say we do think that our minority to say we do think that our minority to say we do think that our unity in Christ is of preeminent unity in Christ is of preeminent unity in Christ is of preeminent importance.

importance. importance. And I love how uh Luke describes the And I love how uh Luke describes the And I love how uh Luke describes the outcome. He says, "And the word of God outcome. He says, "And the word of God outcome. He says, "And the word of God continued to increase and the number of continued to increase and the number of continued to increase and the number of disciples multiply greatly in disciples multiply greatly in disciples multiply greatly in Jerusalem." He he gives credit to the Jerusalem." He he gives credit to the Jerusalem." He he gives credit to the word which is again the second goal of word which is again the second goal of word which is again the second goal of these deacons. Unity and the word that these deacons. Unity and the word that these deacons. Unity and the word that they're protecting. And so you see they're protecting. And so you see they're protecting. And so you see success in both those areas. So if if I success in both those areas. So if if I success in both those areas. So if if I were to say, okay, what's the spiritual were to say, okay, what's the spiritual were to say, okay, what's the spiritual goal of administration? It is to protect goal of administration? It is to protect goal of administration? It is to protect the teaching of the word and to protect the teaching of the word and to protect the teaching of the word and to protect the unity of the church which should be the unity of the church which should be the unity of the church which should be shaped by the teaching of the word. So shaped by the teaching of the word. So shaped by the teaching of the word. So you think about you know protecting the you think about you know protecting the you think about you know protecting the church as a mirror of God's perfect church as a mirror of God's perfect church as a mirror of God's perfect unified character and as a messenger uh unified character and as a messenger uh unified character and as a messenger uh of the gospel. of the gospel. of the gospel. >> That's good mirror and messenger. And um >> That's good mirror and messenger. And um >> That's good mirror and messenger. And um of course administration is also listed of course administration is also listed of course administration is also listed as a spiritual gift in Paul's list in 1 as a spiritual gift in Paul's list in 1 as a spiritual gift in Paul's list in 1 Corinthians 12:28. Um, there's an Corinthians 12:28. Um, there's an Corinthians 12:28. Um, there's an article Trent Hunter wrote years ago at article Trent Hunter wrote years ago at article Trent Hunter wrote years ago at TGC called the spiritual gift you don't TGC called the spiritual gift you don't TGC called the spiritual gift you don't notice until it's gone. Uh, he does a notice until it's gone. Uh, he does a notice until it's gone. Uh, he does a good job of comparing uh church good job of comparing uh church good job of comparing uh church administrative work uh to being like an administrative work uh to being like an administrative work uh to being like an orchestra. Well, he says he says an orchestra. Well, he says he says an orchestra. Well, he says he says an orchestra without a conductor, a orchestra without a conductor, a orchestra without a conductor, a building site without an architect's building site without an architect's building site without an architect's plans and an airfield without an air plans and an airfield without an air plans and an airfield without an air traffic controller.

traffic controller. traffic controller. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's the church without >> That's the church without >> That's the church without administration. And Jamie, you you've administration. And Jamie, you you've administration. And Jamie, you you've already spoken about about deacons. It already spoken about about deacons. It already spoken about about deacons. It it also reminds me of what Peter says in it also reminds me of what Peter says in it also reminds me of what Peter says in 1 Peter 4 where he talks about um uh 1 1 Peter 4 where he talks about um uh 1 1 Peter 4 where he talks about um uh 1 Peter 4 verse 10 and following. As each Peter 4 verse 10 and following. As each Peter 4 verse 10 and following. As each has received a gift, use it to serve one has received a gift, use it to serve one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of God's varied another as good stewards of God's varied another as good stewards of God's varied grace. grace. grace. And then he says, whoever speaks as one And then he says, whoever speaks as one And then he says, whoever speaks as one who speaks oracles of God. Whoever who speaks oracles of God. Whoever who speaks oracles of God. Whoever serves as one who serves by the strength serves as one who serves by the strength serves as one who serves by the strength God supplies. So gifts of speaking, God supplies. So gifts of speaking, God supplies. So gifts of speaking, gifts of serving, which don't exactly gifts of serving, which don't exactly gifts of serving, which don't exactly map on to elderlike gifts and map on to elderlike gifts and map on to elderlike gifts and deacon-like gifts, but they also kind of deacon-like gifts, but they also kind of deacon-like gifts, but they also kind of do. Uh League and I have talked before do. Uh League and I have talked before do. Uh League and I have talked before about how Jesus was described as being about how Jesus was described as being about how Jesus was described as being mighty in both word and deed and how he mighty in both word and deed and how he mighty in both word and deed and how he continues to minister mightily in word continues to minister mightily in word continues to minister mightily in word and deed through the respective offices and deed through the respective offices and deed through the respective offices of elder and deacon.

of elder and deacon. of elder and deacon. >> Um so I think you've well established >> Um so I think you've well established >> Um so I think you've well established the administrative the administrative the administrative uh uh the administrative capacity and uh uh the administrative capacity and uh uh the administrative capacity and importance of deacons. But a lot of importance of deacons. But a lot of importance of deacons. But a lot of pastors when they think about church pastors when they think about church pastors when they think about church administration, administration, administration, they're thinking actually about a they're thinking actually about a they're thinking actually about a pastoral role, what's often called an pastoral role, what's often called an pastoral role, what's often called an executive pastor. So what how would you executive pastor. So what how would you executive pastor. So what how would you encourage churches to think about hiring encourage churches to think about hiring encourage churches to think about hiring pastoral staff for administrative work? pastoral staff for administrative work? pastoral staff for administrative work? >> Well, I am the executive pastor at my >> Well, I am the executive pastor at my >> Well, I am the executive pastor at my church. Uh the elders wanted to make church. Uh the elders wanted to make church. Uh the elders wanted to make that the name of my position. I asked that the name of my position. I asked that the name of my position. I asked them not to. Uh so for all executive them not to. Uh so for all executive them not to. Uh so for all executive pastors out there I don't want to offend pastors out there I don't want to offend pastors out there I don't want to offend you but I think for my congregation that you but I think for my congregation that you but I think for my congregation that was going to give the sense that I was was going to give the sense that I was was going to give the sense that I was the one to execute the vision of the the one to execute the vision of the the one to execute the vision of the elders and uh that's not my job. Uh you elders and uh that's not my job. Uh you elders and uh that's not my job. Uh you know Ephesians chapter 4 uh I remember know Ephesians chapter 4 uh I remember know Ephesians chapter 4 uh I remember league your wonderful talk at T4G quite league your wonderful talk at T4G quite league your wonderful talk at T4G quite some time on this passage uh that uh our some time on this passage uh that uh our some time on this passage uh that uh our job as elders is to equip the saints for job as elders is to equip the saints for job as elders is to equip the saints for works of service. Mhm.

works of service. Mhm. works of service. Mhm. >> Uh they execute the vision not of ours >> Uh they execute the vision not of ours >> Uh they execute the vision not of ours but of the Holy Spirit uh that we see in but of the Holy Spirit uh that we see in but of the Holy Spirit uh that we see in scripture. And so uh I want to whatever scripture. And so uh I want to whatever scripture. And so uh I want to whatever I'm an executive pastor, I want them to I'm an executive pastor, I want them to I'm an executive pastor, I want them to understand I'm a facilitator. I'm not understand I'm a facilitator. I'm not understand I'm a facilitator. I'm not the executor. And uh you know a church's the executor. And uh you know a church's the executor. And uh you know a church's need for an executive pastor varies need for an executive pastor varies need for an executive pastor varies tremendously both based on its size and tremendously both based on its size and tremendously both based on its size and based on the type of ministry it has. based on the type of ministry it has. based on the type of ministry it has. Some churches have lots of programs and Some churches have lots of programs and Some churches have lots of programs and you need a full-time pastor just to kind you need a full-time pastor just to kind you need a full-time pastor just to kind of be the chief operating officer of the of be the chief operating officer of the of be the chief operating officer of the church. My church doesn't have as many church. My church doesn't have as many church. My church doesn't have as many programs. And so my administrative jobs programs. And so my administrative jobs programs. And so my administrative jobs as a pastor is actually pretty low. Uh as a pastor is actually pretty low. Uh as a pastor is actually pretty low. Uh when things are going normally, I spend when things are going normally, I spend when things are going normally, I spend probably 15% of my time on admin. Uh probably 15% of my time on admin. Uh probably 15% of my time on admin. Uh because our deacons do so much and so because our deacons do so much and so because our deacons do so much and so much of the ministry of this church is much of the ministry of this church is much of the ministry of this church is more relational than programmatic in more relational than programmatic in more relational than programmatic in nature. M nature. M nature. M >> and yet I do think it's helpful that one >> and yet I do think it's helpful that one >> and yet I do think it's helpful that one of your elders be administratively of your elders be administratively of your elders be administratively minded and uh I do as you said it's a minded and uh I do as you said it's a minded and uh I do as you said it's a spiritual gift.

spiritual gift. spiritual gift. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh you know that whole section in 1 >> Uh you know that whole section in 1 >> Uh you know that whole section in 1 Corinthians on spiritual gifts finishes Corinthians on spiritual gifts finishes Corinthians on spiritual gifts finishes uh at the end of chapter 14 says but all uh at the end of chapter 14 says but all uh at the end of chapter 14 says but all things should be done decently and in things should be done decently and in things should be done decently and in order. Yeah. order. Yeah. order. Yeah. >> That helps you understand why >> That helps you understand why >> That helps you understand why administration is a spiritual gift administration is a spiritual gift administration is a spiritual gift because order in the congregation is because order in the congregation is because order in the congregation is honoring to God. And and I also think honoring to God. And and I also think honoring to God. And and I also think now, you know, we we it's hard to know now, you know, we we it's hard to know now, you know, we we it's hard to know exactly all the dynamics of Acts 6. They exactly all the dynamics of Acts 6. They exactly all the dynamics of Acts 6. They don't they don't the the the apostles don't they don't the the the apostles don't they don't the the the apostles don't say we don't have administrative don't say we don't have administrative don't say we don't have administrative gifting, therefore let's get guys that gifting, therefore let's get guys that gifting, therefore let's get guys that do. They do say if we were to take the do. They do say if we were to take the do. They do say if we were to take the time to do this, we would neglect the time to do this, we would neglect the time to do this, we would neglect the things that God has called us to do. So things that God has called us to do. So things that God has called us to do. So these things are important enough that these things are important enough that these things are important enough that there need to be people that are there need to be people that are there need to be people that are spending time on that uh to to translate spending time on that uh to to translate spending time on that uh to to translate that into the area of church that into the area of church that into the area of church administration administration administration there. It's certainly true that a pastor there. It's certainly true that a pastor there. It's certainly true that a pastor does not have time especially in a does not have time especially in a does not have time especially in a multistaff setting to do the things that multistaff setting to do the things that multistaff setting to do the things that need to be done administratively.

need to be done administratively. need to be done administratively. And it but it also may be true that he And it but it also may be true that he And it but it also may be true that he does not have the gifting to do that. does not have the gifting to do that. does not have the gifting to do that. I'm I'm thinking right now of a of a man I'm I'm thinking right now of a of a man I'm I'm thinking right now of a of a man that was tremendously used in my wife's that was tremendously used in my wife's that was tremendously used in my wife's life. I think she she looks at him as an life. I think she she looks at him as an life. I think she she looks at him as an older brother in the faith in the way older brother in the faith in the way older brother in the faith in the way that he spiritually invested in her as a that he spiritually invested in her as a that he spiritually invested in her as a pastor, but administratively he was a pastor, but administratively he was a pastor, but administratively he was a disaster. And and I think he knew it. He disaster. And and I think he knew it. He disaster. And and I think he knew it. He he knew that I am not good at this. But he knew that I am not good at this. But he knew that I am not good at this. But there were people on staff at that there were people on staff at that there were people on staff at that church that could do it. And so I do church that could do it. And so I do church that could do it. And so I do think there are some people that have think there are some people that have think there are some people that have more administrative gifting. Now it is more administrative gifting. Now it is more administrative gifting. Now it is something I mean there there there's a something I mean there there there's a something I mean there there there's a part of delegation is administration part of delegation is administration part of delegation is administration right? So the apostles are actually right? So the apostles are actually right? So the apostles are actually showing a lot of wisdom showing a lot of wisdom showing a lot of wisdom >> and administrative gifting in delegating >> and administrative gifting in delegating >> and administrative gifting in delegating uh to that sort of proto diagonal body uh to that sort of proto diagonal body uh to that sort of proto diagonal body there in uh acts chapter 6. So there is there in uh acts chapter 6. So there is there in uh acts chapter 6. So there is that, but you the there are people that that, but you the there are people that that, but you the there are people that are really good at it. And I think the are really good at it. And I think the are really good at it. And I think the the very fact that you're an elder, the very fact that you're an elder, the very fact that you're an elder, you're a you're a staff pastor, you're you're a you're a staff pastor, you're you're a you're a staff pastor, you're on the same theological wavelength, on the same theological wavelength, on the same theological wavelength, um you're committed to the same vision, um you're committed to the same vision, um you're committed to the same vision, and you're doing an administrative.

and you're doing an administrative. and you're doing an administrative. That's huge because so many pastors That's huge because so many pastors That's huge because so many pastors experience people who have experience people who have experience people who have administrative authority that are not on administrative authority that are not on administrative authority that are not on the same wavelength with the eldership the same wavelength with the eldership the same wavelength with the eldership with the with the pastors of the with the with the pastors of the with the with the pastors of the congregation and there's this power you congregation and there's this power you congregation and there's this power you know thing going on uh between them. I I know thing going on uh between them. I I know thing going on uh between them. I I have a friend who was just terrorized by have a friend who was just terrorized by have a friend who was just terrorized by that. They did not have an executive that. They did not have an executive that. They did not have an executive pastor. They had a church administrator pastor. They had a church administrator pastor. They had a church administrator and that church administrator was the and that church administrator was the and that church administrator was the zar of that congregation. And I I could zar of that congregation. And I I could zar of that congregation. And I I could tell you horror story after horror story tell you horror story after horror story tell you horror story after horror story where the people that are in control of where the people that are in control of where the people that are in control of the administrative functioning of the the administrative functioning of the the administrative functioning of the church are not on the same spiritual church are not on the same spiritual church are not on the same spiritual wavelength with those who have been wavelength with those who have been wavelength with those who have been given spiritual uh authority in the given spiritual uh authority in the given spiritual uh authority in the congregation. And it results in great congregation. And it results in great congregation. And it results in great difficulties. I'm I'm thinking right now difficulties. I'm I'm thinking right now difficulties. I'm I'm thinking right now of one of the most famous evangelical of one of the most famous evangelical of one of the most famous evangelical ministers in Christendom in the last ministers in Christendom in the last ministers in Christendom in the last half of the 20th century. And uh the half of the 20th century. And uh the half of the 20th century. And uh the trustees of his congregation that had trustees of his congregation that had trustees of his congregation that had administrative authority wouldn't even administrative authority wouldn't even administrative authority wouldn't even put heating in his office in a northern put heating in his office in a northern put heating in his office in a northern city. And so he he would go into his city. And so he he would go into his city. And so he he would go into his office in two overcoats, you know, uh office in two overcoats, you know, uh office in two overcoats, you know, uh freezing uh because he had freezing uh because he had freezing uh because he had administrators that didn't care about administrators that didn't care about administrators that didn't care about him uh the way that they should have.

him uh the way that they should have. him uh the way that they should have. And so it's a real blessing to have And so it's a real blessing to have And so it's a real blessing to have somebody that has that administrative somebody that has that administrative somebody that has that administrative responsibility that's on the same responsibility that's on the same responsibility that's on the same wavelength with the elders and the wavelength with the elders and the wavelength with the elders and the pastors of the church and is simply pastors of the church and is simply pastors of the church and is simply trying to, as Matt was just saying, trying to, as Matt was just saying, trying to, as Matt was just saying, serve the the the the the ministry of serve the the the the the ministry of serve the the the the the ministry of the congregation by administration. the congregation by administration. the congregation by administration. That's a huge gift. And I've I've been That's a huge gift. And I've I've been That's a huge gift. And I've I've been blessed with that in my own life. People blessed with that in my own life. People blessed with that in my own life. People that were really gifted in that area. that were really gifted in that area. that were really gifted in that area. And it it just makes everything better. And it it just makes everything better. And it it just makes everything better. Yeah. Jamie, what are some practical Yeah. Jamie, what are some practical Yeah. Jamie, what are some practical tips you would give for how a church can tips you would give for how a church can tips you would give for how a church can assess whether its current structures assess whether its current structures assess whether its current structures are serving people well and and what are are serving people well and and what are are serving people well and and what are some maybe systems that you think every some maybe systems that you think every some maybe systems that you think every healthy church should have in place healthy church should have in place healthy church should have in place regardless of size? regardless of size? regardless of size? >> Well, some church structures are I think >> Well, some church structures are I think >> Well, some church structures are I think in the scriptures. Uh obviously in the scriptures. Uh obviously in the scriptures. Uh obviously different uh Christians are going to different uh Christians are going to different uh Christians are going to disagree over disagree over disagree over uh you know what things are normative uh you know what things are normative uh you know what things are normative and what things are more descriptive. Uh and what things are more descriptive. Uh and what things are more descriptive. Uh >> Jamie and I don't disagree. Who are so >> Jamie and I don't disagree. Who are so >> Jamie and I don't disagree. Who are so who are you referring to Jamie?

who are you referring to Jamie? who are you referring to Jamie? >> That's right. Our Presbyterian brother >> That's right. Our Presbyterian brother >> That's right. Our Presbyterian brother everything with us. everything with us. everything with us. >> My guess is at the local church level >> My guess is at the local church level >> My guess is at the local church level we're going to be pretty close. we're going to be pretty close. we're going to be pretty close. >> Probably not. There may be some semantic >> Probably not. There may be some semantic >> Probably not. There may be some semantic differences and slight differences in differences and slight differences in differences and slight differences in emphasis, but especially in my tradition emphasis, but especially in my tradition emphasis, but especially in my tradition because we believe that the uh property because we believe that the uh property because we believe that the uh property of the congregation, the material of the congregation, the material of the congregation, the material resources of the congregation belongs to resources of the congregation belongs to resources of the congregation belongs to the congregation. Functionally, the congregation. Functionally, the congregation. Functionally, uh my kind of Presbyterian and your kind uh my kind of Presbyterian and your kind uh my kind of Presbyterian and your kind of Baptist are going to operate in a of Baptist are going to operate in a of Baptist are going to operate in a super super similar way at the local super super similar way at the local super super similar way at the local church level. church level. church level. >> That's true. And and the point there is >> That's true. And and the point there is >> That's true. And and the point there is begin with the scriptures because you begin with the scriptures because you begin with the scriptures because you don't have an empty whiteboard when you don't have an empty whiteboard when you don't have an empty whiteboard when you think about church structures. The Lord think about church structures. The Lord think about church structures. The Lord has already you know put a lot of stuff has already you know put a lot of stuff has already you know put a lot of stuff on that whiteboard and you want to start on that whiteboard and you want to start on that whiteboard and you want to start there. there. there. >> And then as you as you think about uh >> And then as you as you think about uh >> And then as you as you think about uh you know how well your you know the you know how well your you know the you know how well your you know the stuff you're writing the whiteboard is stuff you're writing the whiteboard is stuff you're writing the whiteboard is serving you. I would think about that serving you. I would think about that serving you. I would think about that passage. passage. passage. >> Jamie before you go there can you just >> Jamie before you go there can you just >> Jamie before you go there can you just spell out what God has written on that spell out what God has written on that spell out what God has written on that whiteboard? I assume you mean for whiteboard? I assume you mean for whiteboard? I assume you mean for example the office of deacon or what example the office of deacon or what example the office of deacon or what other things do you have in mind when other things do you have in mind when other things do you have in mind when you say that there are biblical church you say that there are biblical church you say that there are biblical church structures?

structures? structures? >> Yeah, I would think the offices of the >> Yeah, I would think the offices of the >> Yeah, I would think the offices of the church. Uh so if if you're one of those church. Uh so if if you're one of those church. Uh so if if you're one of those churches that thinks you have a churches that thinks you have a churches that thinks you have a wonderful kind of workaround that you wonderful kind of workaround that you wonderful kind of workaround that you have created your own offices so you have created your own offices so you have created your own offices so you don't have to have the ones in don't have to have the ones in don't have to have the ones in scripture, I would implore you to take scripture, I would implore you to take scripture, I would implore you to take what the Lord gave you. Uh elders with what the Lord gave you. Uh elders with what the Lord gave you. Uh elders with the qualifications that we see in the qualifications that we see in the qualifications that we see in scripture, deacons with the scripture, deacons with the scripture, deacons with the qualifications we see in scripture, uh qualifications we see in scripture, uh qualifications we see in scripture, uh those are normative. We know they're those are normative. We know they're those are normative. We know they're normative because we have qualifications normative because we have qualifications normative because we have qualifications laid out in the epistles. And uh just laid out in the epistles. And uh just laid out in the epistles. And uh just because you don't like some of those because you don't like some of those because you don't like some of those qualifications doesn't mean that you qualifications doesn't mean that you qualifications doesn't mean that you have the privilege of kind of creating have the privilege of kind of creating have the privilege of kind of creating your own offices. So the offices are your own offices. So the offices are your own offices. So the offices are certainly there. Uh the structures of certainly there. Uh the structures of certainly there. Uh the structures of membership, church discipline that we membership, church discipline that we membership, church discipline that we see in Matthew 18 are part of the see in Matthew 18 are part of the see in Matthew 18 are part of the administrative structure of the church administrative structure of the church administrative structure of the church that we want to pay close attention to. that we want to pay close attention to. that we want to pay close attention to. And just note, I would say I go like And just note, I would say I go like And just note, I would say I go like here I go where angels fear to tread in here I go where angels fear to tread in here I go where angels fear to tread in criticizing committees. Um there there criticizing committees. Um there there criticizing committees. Um there there can be a place for committees. I want to can be a place for committees. I want to can be a place for committees. I want to be clear about that. Uh although it's be clear about that. Uh although it's be clear about that. Uh although it's been said committees are are where been said committees are are where been said committees are are where minutes are kept and hours are lost, minutes are kept and hours are lost, minutes are kept and hours are lost, just just just just note uh that committees are not a a just note uh that committees are not a a just note uh that committees are not a a biblical category that the Bible biblical category that the Bible biblical category that the Bible prescribes two offices for the local prescribes two offices for the local prescribes two offices for the local church, elder and deacon and church, elder and deacon and church, elder and deacon and >> and flower committee. Don't forget that >> and flower committee. Don't forget that >> and flower committee. Don't forget that third third third >> and flower committee. There we go.

>> and flower committee. There we go. >> and flower committee. There we go. >> Sorry. continue, Jamie. >> Sorry. continue, Jamie. >> Sorry. continue, Jamie. >> Yeah. So, so in my church, we have >> Yeah. So, so in my church, we have >> Yeah. So, so in my church, we have committees. They serve the elders. Uh, committees. They serve the elders. Uh, committees. They serve the elders. Uh, but the elders lead. And I I think but the elders lead. And I I think but the elders lead. And I I think that's what you see in scripture. Um, I that's what you see in scripture. Um, I that's what you see in scripture. Um, I think another kind of, you know, section think another kind of, you know, section think another kind of, you know, section that's already colored on the that's already colored on the that's already colored on the whiteboard, the the financial principles whiteboard, the the financial principles whiteboard, the the financial principles that you see in places like 2 that you see in places like 2 that you see in places like 2 Corinthians 8:9, 1 Timothy chapter 5, Corinthians 8:9, 1 Timothy chapter 5, Corinthians 8:9, 1 Timothy chapter 5, uh, for how we should, uh, uh, take care uh, for how we should, uh, uh, take care uh, for how we should, uh, uh, take care of money in the church. So, those would of money in the church. So, those would of money in the church. So, those would be a few examples. How do you evaluate be a few examples. How do you evaluate be a few examples. How do you evaluate all the other stuff you've built? I all the other stuff you've built? I all the other stuff you've built? I would take Ephesians chapter 4. Uh do we would take Ephesians chapter 4. Uh do we would take Ephesians chapter 4. Uh do we see that the structures we've built are see that the structures we've built are see that the structures we've built are enabling the teachers of the church to enabling the teachers of the church to enabling the teachers of the church to equip the saints for work of ministry? equip the saints for work of ministry? equip the saints for work of ministry? Uh sometimes we build structures that Uh sometimes we build structures that Uh sometimes we build structures that actually uh help the church to abdicate actually uh help the church to abdicate actually uh help the church to abdicate their responsibilities. their responsibilities. their responsibilities. Uh sometimes we build structures that Uh sometimes we build structures that Uh sometimes we build structures that complicate the church's ability to take complicate the church's ability to take complicate the church's ability to take care of the needs of the church. Um, and care of the needs of the church. Um, and care of the needs of the church. Um, and then I think Acts chapter 6, you know, then I think Acts chapter 6, you know, then I think Acts chapter 6, you know, are the are the is the um the trellis of are the are the is the um the trellis of are the are the is the um the trellis of the church, so to speak, serving the the church, so to speak, serving the the church, so to speak, serving the unity of the church, and is it unity of the church, and is it unity of the church, and is it protecting the teaching of the church?

protecting the teaching of the church? protecting the teaching of the church? I'm sure we could come up with more if I'm sure we could come up with more if I'm sure we could come up with more if we thought about it longer. Uh, but we thought about it longer. Uh, but we thought about it longer. Uh, but those two passages, I think, are are those two passages, I think, are are those two passages, I think, are are good biblical good biblical good biblical uh uh scorecard for how well those uh uh scorecard for how well those uh uh scorecard for how well those structures are serving the church. And structures are serving the church. And structures are serving the church. And you asked what what should every church you asked what what should every church you asked what what should every church have regardless of size? I would think have regardless of size? I would think have regardless of size? I would think benevolence. Uh that's obviously the benevolence. Uh that's obviously the benevolence. Uh that's obviously the first administr administrative structure first administr administrative structure first administr administrative structure that we see in the Jerusalem church. Uh that we see in the Jerusalem church. Uh that we see in the Jerusalem church. Uh it's interesting. Uh deacons it's interesting. Uh deacons it's interesting. Uh deacons administrate in Acts chapter 6. And yet administrate in Acts chapter 6. And yet administrate in Acts chapter 6. And yet in 1 Timothy 5, you see instructions in 1 Timothy 5, you see instructions in 1 Timothy 5, you see instructions given to Timothy the pastor, the elder given to Timothy the pastor, the elder given to Timothy the pastor, the elder on who qualifies for that widow's list. on who qualifies for that widow's list. on who qualifies for that widow's list. I think it's if you put those two I think it's if you put those two I think it's if you put those two together, it's a great example of how together, it's a great example of how together, it's a great example of how elders and deacons work together uh and elders and deacons work together uh and elders and deacons work together uh and how you see responsibilities given to how you see responsibilities given to how you see responsibilities given to each one of them. Uh and I think the each one of them. Uh and I think the each one of them. Uh and I think the other uh thing that every church has to other uh thing that every church has to other uh thing that every church has to think about structurally is financial think about structurally is financial think about structurally is financial accountability. Uh so you know when Paul accountability. Uh so you know when Paul accountability. Uh so you know when Paul is talking about his goals for the is talking about his goals for the is talking about his goals for the collection made for the uh the poor collection made for the uh the poor collection made for the uh the poor saints in Judea, saints in Judea, saints in Judea, he says he wants to raise the money and he says he wants to raise the money and he says he wants to raise the money and I'm paraphrasing here. Uh but in a way I'm paraphrasing here. Uh but in a way I'm paraphrasing here. Uh but in a way that is right not only in the sight of that is right not only in the sight of that is right not only in the sight of God but also in the sight of man.

God but also in the sight of man. God but also in the sight of man. >> Uh and we want to do the same thing. We >> Uh and we want to do the same thing. We >> Uh and we want to do the same thing. We want to make sure that uh there is no want to make sure that uh there is no want to make sure that uh there is no question but that money is handled with question but that money is handled with question but that money is handled with integrity in our churches. Yeah. So I integrity in our churches. Yeah. So I integrity in our churches. Yeah. So I would I would pull up benevolence and would I would pull up benevolence and would I would pull up benevolence and financial accountability as two things financial accountability as two things financial accountability as two things that every church no matter their size that every church no matter their size that every church no matter their size needs to consider structurally. needs to consider structurally. needs to consider structurally. Do you want to add more either of you? Do you want to add more either of you? Do you want to add more either of you? >> No, I think that's good. Again, it's a >> No, I think that's good. Again, it's a >> No, I think that's good. Again, it's a good it's a good habit in this area to good it's a good habit in this area to good it's a good habit in this area to go to the scriptures and look at what go to the scriptures and look at what go to the scriptures and look at what the Bible says about handling money the Bible says about handling money the Bible says about handling money responsibly in general and then make responsibly in general and then make responsibly in general and then make sure and extract from that general sure and extract from that general sure and extract from that general principle of the word uh how we're to principle of the word uh how we're to principle of the word uh how we're to operate in the life of the local operate in the life of the local operate in the life of the local congregation. And there's a lot there. congregation. And there's a lot there. congregation. And there's a lot there. The the Bible just has a lot of wisdom The the Bible just has a lot of wisdom The the Bible just has a lot of wisdom uh about how we're to handle resources. uh about how we're to handle resources. uh about how we're to handle resources. leg, how did you see effective church leg, how did you see effective church leg, how did you see effective church administration accelerate the spiritual administration accelerate the spiritual administration accelerate the spiritual ministry of the church at first press? ministry of the church at first press? ministry of the church at first press? >> Well, I one one thing was there were so >> Well, I one one thing was there were so >> Well, I one one thing was there were so many things I did not have to worry many things I did not have to worry many things I did not have to worry about.

about. about. >> So with be because for instance there >> So with be because for instance there >> So with be because for instance there was a good administrative process on was a good administrative process on was a good administrative process on budgeting. I I didn't have to come in budgeting. I I didn't have to come in budgeting. I I didn't have to come in and help them create something exhilar uh about the process with uh a group of uh about the process with uh a group of elders or deacons that were that were elders or deacons that were that were elders or deacons that were that were working on the budget was to talk about working on the budget was to talk about working on the budget was to talk about what our personnel needed. you know, did what our personnel needed. you know, did what our personnel needed. you know, did you know what did do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do we need to do do do do do do do do do we need to do do do do do do do do do we need to increase what we're paying those that increase what we're paying those that increase what we're paying those that are serving us in the church and then are serving us in the church and then are serving us in the church and then what are my recommendations in the area what are my recommendations in the area what are my recommendations in the area of benevolence and mission and church of benevolence and mission and church of benevolence and mission and church planting you know they they wanted my planting you know they they wanted my planting you know they they wanted my input in there they didn't I wasn't a input in there they didn't I wasn't a input in there they didn't I wasn't a zar I was I was one of the elders zar I was I was one of the elders zar I was I was one of the elders speaking to the other to my fellow speaking to the other to my fellow speaking to the other to my fellow elders about that but they genuinely elders about that but they genuinely elders about that but they genuinely wanted my opinion and so there was an wanted my opinion and so there was an wanted my opinion and so there was an enormous relief on my part that that enormous relief on my part that that enormous relief on my part that that wasn't on my shoulders to come up with.

wasn't on my shoulders to come up with. wasn't on my shoulders to come up with. They they viewed that this is our They they viewed that this is our They they viewed that this is our obligation. We want to know what the obligation. We want to know what the obligation. We want to know what the pastor thinks. We we want to present pastor thinks. We we want to present pastor thinks. We we want to present this in a way that the budget is this in a way that the budget is this in a way that the budget is balanced, that the budget is reasonable, balanced, that the budget is reasonable, balanced, that the budget is reasonable, that the way we're deploying our that the way we're deploying our that the way we're deploying our resources is wise. We want his input, resources is wise. We want his input, resources is wise. We want his input, but this isn't on his shoulders to come but this isn't on his shoulders to come but this isn't on his shoulders to come up with by himself. That was incredible. up with by himself. That was incredible. up with by himself. That was incredible. And they were on board with what we were And they were on board with what we were And they were on board with what we were trying to do in the ministry there. trying to do in the ministry there. trying to do in the ministry there. There wasn't somebody in administration There wasn't somebody in administration There wasn't somebody in administration that was trying to fight what the rest that was trying to fight what the rest that was trying to fight what the rest of the elders wanted. And that's what of the elders wanted. And that's what of the elders wanted. And that's what sometimes can happen in a church. You sometimes can happen in a church. You sometimes can happen in a church. You can have somebody that feels a little can have somebody that feels a little can have somebody that feels a little taste of power in administration. And taste of power in administration. And taste of power in administration. And they can decide that they are they can decide that they are they can decide that they are unilaterally going to frustrate what the unilaterally going to frustrate what the unilaterally going to frustrate what the elders together with the congregation elders together with the congregation elders together with the congregation have decided this is the direction we're have decided this is the direction we're have decided this is the direction we're going here. And that's a curse. But going here. And that's a curse. But going here. And that's a curse. But having somebody that facilitates that uh having somebody that facilitates that uh having somebody that facilitates that uh that vision and make sure that it's it's that vision and make sure that it's it's that vision and make sure that it's it's done decently in order. 1 Corinthians uh done decently in order. 1 Corinthians uh done decently in order. 1 Corinthians uh 14 that it's that it's done in uh the a 14 that it's that it's done in uh the a 14 that it's that it's done in uh the a manner of good stewardship. Another manner of good stewardship. Another manner of good stewardship. Another principle uh in uh 1 Corinthians principle uh in uh 1 Corinthians principle uh in uh 1 Corinthians that's a blessing uh because that that that's a blessing uh because that that that's a blessing uh because that that person is thinking about details that I person is thinking about details that I person is thinking about details that I might forget because I'm up at 30,000 might forget because I'm up at 30,000 might forget because I'm up at 30,000 ft. I'm I'm looking at the big picture ft. I'm I'm looking at the big picture ft. I'm I'm looking at the big picture that there's a little foxes can spoil that there's a little foxes can spoil that there's a little foxes can spoil the vine. Another biblical principle the vine. Another biblical principle the vine. Another biblical principle there. So this person is thinking about there. So this person is thinking about there. So this person is thinking about now what what might happen here? What now what what might happen here? What now what what might happen here? What might happen here? What's the best way might happen here? What's the best way might happen here? What's the best way to handle this? So that the vision of to handle this? So that the vision of to handle this? So that the vision of the elders in the congregation can be

the elders in the congregation can be the elders in the congregation can be furthered. And that's a that's a huge furthered. And that's a that's a huge furthered. And that's a that's a huge blessing. And thankfully I've had that blessing. And thankfully I've had that blessing. And thankfully I've had that everywhere I've been. But I've had everywhere I've been. But I've had everywhere I've been. But I've had plenty of friends in ministry that plenty of friends in ministry that plenty of friends in ministry that didn't have that. And and when they were didn't have that. And and when they were didn't have that. And and when they were able to move from not having that to able to move from not having that to able to move from not having that to having that, it it made their ministry having that, it it made their ministry having that, it it made their ministry happier. They didn't feel like they were happier. They didn't feel like they were happier. They didn't feel like they were having an interessine warfare going on having an interessine warfare going on having an interessine warfare going on inside the leadership of the church. Uh inside the leadership of the church. Uh inside the leadership of the church. Uh it it alleviated fears. Oh no. What it it alleviated fears. Oh no. What it it alleviated fears. Oh no. What happens if what we've agreed upon as an happens if what we've agreed upon as an happens if what we've agreed upon as an eldership and in a congregation is eldership and in a congregation is eldership and in a congregation is undermined by this person in undermined by this person in undermined by this person in administration who thinks that he has administration who thinks that he has administration who thinks that he has the unilateral right to determine uh how the unilateral right to determine uh how the unilateral right to determine uh how we're going to do these things. It's we're going to do these things. It's we're going to do these things. It's just an enormous blessing to have a just an enormous blessing to have a just an enormous blessing to have a competent person who exercises authority competent person who exercises authority competent person who exercises authority not for the sake of being our overlord not for the sake of being our overlord not for the sake of being our overlord but for the sake of being the servant of but for the sake of being the servant of but for the sake of being the servant of all uh the brothers and and the fellow all uh the brothers and and the fellow all uh the brothers and and the fellow elders. So it's it's a it's a joy and elders. So it's it's a it's a joy and elders. So it's it's a it's a joy and it's been a joy for me now but having it's been a joy for me now but having it's been a joy for me now but having come to the seminary it has more become come to the seminary it has more become come to the seminary it has more become my obligation to present a good budget my obligation to present a good budget my obligation to present a good budget to my to my board and I kind of miss the to my to my board and I kind of miss the to my to my board and I kind of miss the way it was in the local church where it way it was in the local church where it way it was in the local church where it was more on the elders and deacons to do was more on the elders and deacons to do was more on the elders and deacons to do that and I was just one of the fellow that and I was just one of the fellow that and I was just one of the fellow elders in that. So pastors, enjoy that elders in that. So pastors, enjoy that elders in that. So pastors, enjoy that in a good environment. And then if you

in a good environment. And then if you in a good environment. And then if you don't have that good environment, by don't have that good environment, by don't have that good environment, by God's grace, just like you would work to God's grace, just like you would work to God's grace, just like you would work to see the people sanctified in other see the people sanctified in other see the people sanctified in other areas, work to see the system sanctified areas, work to see the system sanctified areas, work to see the system sanctified in that area. in that area. in that area. >> If I could add one detail to uh Le's >> If I could add one detail to uh Le's >> If I could add one detail to uh Le's comment about uh intiming warfare in the comment about uh intiming warfare in the comment about uh intiming warfare in the congregation. congregation. congregation. >> You know, elders in scripture are >> You know, elders in scripture are >> You know, elders in scripture are overseers and and that's a word with overseers and and that's a word with overseers and and that's a word with administrative connotations. uh an administrative connotations. uh an administrative connotations. uh an overseer was the manager of you know overseer was the manager of you know overseer was the manager of you know that first century household and so what that first century household and so what that first century household and so what that means is that administrative that means is that administrative that means is that administrative leadership is going to come from the leadership is going to come from the leadership is going to come from the elders not from a business office. A elders not from a business office. A elders not from a business office. A business office could be helpful to the business office could be helpful to the business office could be helpful to the elders but uh you need to think about elders but uh you need to think about elders but uh you need to think about the the elders vision their leadership the the elders vision their leadership the the elders vision their leadership is spiritual and spiritual leadership is spiritual and spiritual leadership is spiritual and spiritual leadership will involve administrative leadership. will involve administrative leadership. will involve administrative leadership. Uh you don't want to create two Uh you don't want to create two Uh you don't want to create two different bodies of power within the different bodies of power within the different bodies of power within the congregation. the elders lead uh and uh congregation. the elders lead uh and uh congregation. the elders lead uh and uh administration should follow. administration should follow. administration should follow. >> I joked at the outset of the episode >> I joked at the outset of the episode >> I joked at the outset of the episode about church administration leading some about church administration leading some about church administration leading some pastors to want to resign. Um but in pastors to want to resign. Um but in pastors to want to resign. Um but in many cases it's it's really not a joke.

many cases it's it's really not a joke. many cases it's it's really not a joke. I mean, pastors get into the ministry I mean, pastors get into the ministry I mean, pastors get into the ministry for other things because they they have for other things because they they have for other things because they they have a heart for other things and then they a heart for other things and then they a heart for other things and then they just end up feeling like all I do is just end up feeling like all I do is just end up feeling like all I do is respond to emails and and look at respond to emails and and look at respond to emails and and look at financial spreadsheets and try to get financial spreadsheets and try to get financial spreadsheets and try to get enough volunteers for children's enough volunteers for children's enough volunteers for children's ministry this coming Sunday. Uh so ministry this coming Sunday. Uh so ministry this coming Sunday. Uh so especially to pastors maybe of smaller especially to pastors maybe of smaller especially to pastors maybe of smaller churches who just feel uh alone, kind of churches who just feel uh alone, kind of churches who just feel uh alone, kind of disorganized, unequipped for the disorganized, unequipped for the disorganized, unequipped for the administrative side of ministry. What administrative side of ministry. What administrative side of ministry. What advice would you give them and their advice would you give them and their advice would you give them and their leadership teams? Uh Jamie, leadership teams? Uh Jamie, leadership teams? Uh Jamie, >> uh deacons, deacons, deacons. >> uh deacons, deacons, deacons. >> uh deacons, deacons, deacons. >> I know a pastor in Richmond who wrote a >> I know a pastor in Richmond who wrote a >> I know a pastor in Richmond who wrote a great great book on deacons that someone great great book on deacons that someone great great book on deacons that someone could look at called Deacons by Matt could look at called Deacons by Matt could look at called Deacons by Matt Smith. Smith. Smith. What a title. Doesn't just make it fly What a title. Doesn't just make it fly What a title. Doesn't just make it fly off the shelf. off the shelf. off the shelf. >> Tell you what, what a blessing our >> Tell you what, what a blessing our >> Tell you what, what a blessing our deacons are. We, like you recommend in deacons are. We, like you recommend in deacons are. We, like you recommend in your book, Matt, have structured our your book, Matt, have structured our your book, Matt, have structured our diiacinate uh different than some diiacinate uh different than some diiacinate uh different than some churches have. Some churches the dachina churches have. Some churches the dachina churches have. Some churches the dachina is 100% focused on benevolence. We have is 100% focused on benevolence. We have is 100% focused on benevolence. We have some deacons focus on benevolence, but some deacons focus on benevolence, but some deacons focus on benevolence, but we have deacons who address different we have deacons who address different we have deacons who address different areas of work in the church. So, deacons areas of work in the church. So, deacons areas of work in the church. So, deacons of children's ministry, deacons of youth of children's ministry, deacons of youth of children's ministry, deacons of youth ministry, deacons of student ministry, ministry, deacons of student ministry, ministry, deacons of student ministry, deacons even of parking because we have deacons even of parking because we have deacons even of parking because we have 850 people. Well, we've got more than 850 people. Well, we've got more than 850 people. Well, we've got more than that. We have,00 people here on a Sunday that. We have,00 people here on a Sunday that. We have,00 people here on a Sunday in a parking lot that that fits 45 cars.

in a parking lot that that fits 45 cars. in a parking lot that that fits 45 cars. And so, we have unity problems in how we And so, we have unity problems in how we And so, we have unity problems in how we use parking. So, we have a deacon of use parking. So, we have a deacon of use parking. So, we have a deacon of parking who addresses it. Uh but because parking who addresses it. Uh but because parking who addresses it. Uh but because each of our deacons is focused on an each of our deacons is focused on an each of our deacons is focused on an area of ministry that could be a unity area of ministry that could be a unity area of ministry that could be a unity problem in the church, they understand problem in the church, they understand problem in the church, they understand like the deacons of act 6 that their like the deacons of act 6 that their like the deacons of act 6 that their foremost goal is not efficiency but it foremost goal is not efficiency but it foremost goal is not efficiency but it is excellence in protecting unity. They is excellence in protecting unity. They is excellence in protecting unity. They protect the pastors in such wonderful protect the pastors in such wonderful protect the pastors in such wonderful ways. M uh so if I were to give any ways. M uh so if I were to give any ways. M uh so if I were to give any recommendation to those who are thinking recommendation to those who are thinking recommendation to those who are thinking how can I as a pastor not spend as much how can I as a pastor not spend as much how can I as a pastor not spend as much time thinking about administration I time thinking about administration I time thinking about administration I would say equip your deacons we also would say equip your deacons we also would say equip your deacons we also have term limits on deacons so you can have term limits on deacons so you can have term limits on deacons so you can serve for three years and you're done serve for three years and you're done serve for three years and you're done and I think that allows deacons to give and I think that allows deacons to give and I think that allows deacons to give themselves more wholeheartedly to the themselves more wholeheartedly to the themselves more wholeheartedly to the ministry uh that they're engaged in ministry uh that they're engaged in ministry uh that they're engaged in rather than feeling like I have to make rather than feeling like I have to make rather than feeling like I have to make this sustainable for the rest of my this sustainable for the rest of my this sustainable for the rest of my life. Uh but I love our deacons. We're life. Uh but I love our deacons. We're life. Uh but I love our deacons. We're so well served by our deacons and there so well served by our deacons and there so well served by our deacons and there are so many things I see other churches are so many things I see other churches are so many things I see other churches of our size having to hire staff to do of our size having to hire staff to do of our size having to hire staff to do that our deacons do wonderfully and that that our deacons do wonderfully and that that our deacons do wonderfully and that serves the pastors so well.

serves the pastors so well. serves the pastors so well. >> That's a good word. And >> That's a good word. And >> That's a good word. And >> um Jamie, you mentioned earlier how >> um Jamie, you mentioned earlier how >> um Jamie, you mentioned earlier how elders lead ministry, deacons facilitate elders lead ministry, deacons facilitate elders lead ministry, deacons facilitate ministry, but the congregation does ministry, but the congregation does ministry, but the congregation does ministry. And whether we're talking ministry. And whether we're talking ministry. And whether we're talking about a deacon or a an administrative about a deacon or a an administrative about a deacon or a an administrative pastor, they are essentially helping the pastor, they are essentially helping the pastor, they are essentially helping the trains to run on time. Well, they're trains to run on time. Well, they're trains to run on time. Well, they're they're laying the railroad track so they're laying the railroad track so they're laying the railroad track so that the train can run. They're helping that the train can run. They're helping that the train can run. They're helping the trains to run on time, often in ways the trains to run on time, often in ways the trains to run on time, often in ways that are hidden and behind the scenes. that are hidden and behind the scenes. that are hidden and behind the scenes. Uh I I I liken administrative Uh I I I liken administrative Uh I I I liken administrative staff and deacons to a congregation's staff and deacons to a congregation's staff and deacons to a congregation's special ops force who are often carrying special ops force who are often carrying special ops force who are often carrying out unseen tasks with fortitude and joy. out unseen tasks with fortitude and joy. out unseen tasks with fortitude and joy. And a a church is impoverished without And a a church is impoverished without And a a church is impoverished without them and is deeply indebted to them when them and is deeply indebted to them when them and is deeply indebted to them when they carry out that uh those tasks with they carry out that uh those tasks with they carry out that uh those tasks with cheerfulness and with as you said cheerfulness and with as you said cheerfulness and with as you said excellence. Uh, I'd love to to end just excellence. Uh, I'd love to to end just excellence. Uh, I'd love to to end just by hearing from you, Jamie. Any ways as by hearing from you, Jamie. Any ways as by hearing from you, Jamie. Any ways as you reflect on the last 20 years at you reflect on the last 20 years at you reflect on the last 20 years at Capitol Hill Baptist that you have seen Capitol Hill Baptist that you have seen Capitol Hill Baptist that you have seen faithful administration? Any other ways faithful administration? Any other ways faithful administration? Any other ways beyond what you've already said that beyond what you've already said that beyond what you've already said that you've seen faithful administrative work you've seen faithful administrative work you've seen faithful administrative work bear spiritual fruit in the life of the bear spiritual fruit in the life of the bear spiritual fruit in the life of the church?

church? church? >> Well, I think one advantage of having >> Well, I think one advantage of having >> Well, I think one advantage of having one elder who is thinking especially one elder who is thinking especially one elder who is thinking especially carefully about administration is that carefully about administration is that carefully about administration is that he's going to have pastoral goals in he's going to have pastoral goals in he's going to have pastoral goals in mind. And uh I I think one benefit of mind. And uh I I think one benefit of mind. And uh I I think one benefit of having a job like mine in the church, having a job like mine in the church, having a job like mine in the church, you know, an administrative pastor is you know, an administrative pastor is you know, an administrative pastor is that I am always on the lookout for that I am always on the lookout for that I am always on the lookout for administration to serve pastoral administration to serve pastoral administration to serve pastoral spiritual purposes. And I I do think spiritual purposes. And I I do think spiritual purposes. And I I do think that having an elder in that role has uh that having an elder in that role has uh that having an elder in that role has uh helped protect us from some of the helped protect us from some of the helped protect us from some of the natural tensions between efficiency and natural tensions between efficiency and natural tensions between efficiency and excellence excellence excellence >> uh that many organizations run into. M >> uh that many organizations run into. M >> uh that many organizations run into. M >> um I think that um that good >> um I think that um that good >> um I think that um that good administration administration administration uh has helped the congregation be more uh has helped the congregation be more uh has helped the congregation be more faithful in their giving uh because they faithful in their giving uh because they faithful in their giving uh because they have confidence that have confidence that have confidence that >> there's competence behind the scenes. >> there's competence behind the scenes. >> there's competence behind the scenes. At the same time, you know, one of my uh At the same time, you know, one of my uh At the same time, you know, one of my uh roles as the administrative pastor is roles as the administrative pastor is roles as the administrative pastor is decide uh how excellent are we going to decide uh how excellent are we going to decide uh how excellent are we going to be? M be? M be? M >> uh you know if you visit my church I >> uh you know if you visit my church I >> uh you know if you visit my church I think we have a beautiful church think we have a beautiful church think we have a beautiful church building and the basement still needs a building and the basement still needs a building and the basement still needs a little bit of work and that's because uh little bit of work and that's because uh little bit of work and that's because uh every year instead of dumping our budget every year instead of dumping our budget every year instead of dumping our budget into renovations we invest in church into renovations we invest in church into renovations we invest in church planting and we do missions work and we planting and we do missions work and we planting and we do missions work and we train pastors and uh I very much want train pastors and uh I very much want train pastors and uh I very much want the congregation to feel the importance the congregation to feel the importance the congregation to feel the importance of both of those things. The worth of of both of those things. The worth of of both of those things. The worth of our building but also the worthiness of our building but also the worthiness of our building but also the worthiness of spending money outside of who we are as spending money outside of who we are as spending money outside of who we are as a congregation. And that's again part of

a congregation. And that's again part of a congregation. And that's again part of part of the role of administration is part of the role of administration is part of the role of administration is deciding, you know, what what level of deciding, you know, what what level of deciding, you know, what what level of excellence is going to be faithful as a excellence is going to be faithful as a excellence is going to be faithful as a congregation as we consider all the congregation as we consider all the congregation as we consider all the different trade-offs that we have. different trade-offs that we have. different trade-offs that we have. >> That's wonderful. Um Le, any final words >> That's wonderful. Um Le, any final words >> That's wonderful. Um Le, any final words from you? Just that there is no pastor from you? Just that there is no pastor from you? Just that there is no pastor that can be unconcerned about good that can be unconcerned about good that can be unconcerned about good administration in the local church. Some administration in the local church. Some administration in the local church. Some of us have more help in that area than of us have more help in that area than of us have more help in that area than others. We need to acknowledge that if others. We need to acknowledge that if others. We need to acknowledge that if we're in a situation with very little we're in a situation with very little we're in a situation with very little help in that area, then we need to be help in that area, then we need to be help in that area, then we need to be telling our brothers and sisters in that telling our brothers and sisters in that telling our brothers and sisters in that local congregation uh about the need local congregation uh about the need local congregation uh about the need that we have for help in that area. And that we have for help in that area. And that we have for help in that area. And then there are resources. I mean, that then there are resources. I mean, that then there are resources. I mean, that that's why we're having this that's why we're having this that's why we're having this conversation right now. There there are conversation right now. There there are conversation right now. There there are resources outside of our local resources outside of our local resources outside of our local congregation that can actually help our congregation that can actually help our congregation that can actually help our local congregation grow in this area. local congregation grow in this area. local congregation grow in this area. Good administration is actually going to Good administration is actually going to Good administration is actually going to help grow trust in the congregation. help grow trust in the congregation. help grow trust in the congregation. Just like Jamie was talking about, Just like Jamie was talking about, Just like Jamie was talking about, having somebody paying attention to having somebody paying attention to having somebody paying attention to parking actually serves church unity.

parking actually serves church unity. parking actually serves church unity. Admin, good administration Admin, good administration Admin, good administration helps grow trust and trust is the most helps grow trust and trust is the most helps grow trust and trust is the most precious commodity in an institution. precious commodity in an institution. precious commodity in an institution. And so if we're in a 100 member church And so if we're in a 100 member church And so if we're in a 100 member church in Paduka or we're in an 850 member in Paduka or we're in an 850 member in Paduka or we're in an 850 member church in Washington DC, good church in Washington DC, good church in Washington DC, good administration matters. And if we don't administration matters. And if we don't administration matters. And if we don't know how to do it ourselves and we don't know how to do it ourselves and we don't know how to do it ourselves and we don't have that gift ourselves there, God will have that gift ourselves there, God will have that gift ourselves there, God will probably have put someone in our midst probably have put someone in our midst probably have put someone in our midst who can help us there. And if he hasn't, who can help us there. And if he hasn't, who can help us there. And if he hasn't, there will be brothers and sisters there will be brothers and sisters there will be brothers and sisters around us in like-minded churches that around us in like-minded churches that around us in like-minded churches that can help us give us wisdom. this might can help us give us wisdom. this might can help us give us wisdom. this might be the opportunity to bring somebody in be the opportunity to bring somebody in be the opportunity to bring somebody in like Jamie to talk to your leadership like Jamie to talk to your leadership like Jamie to talk to your leadership about that. It'll give them a vision and about that. It'll give them a vision and about that. It'll give them a vision and I guarantee you the folks who are I guarantee you the folks who are I guarantee you the folks who are businessmen that are part of your businessmen that are part of your businessmen that are part of your congregate, they will appreciate how congregate, they will appreciate how congregate, they will appreciate how important this is. important this is. important this is. >> This is important to their lives uh in >> This is important to their lives uh in >> This is important to their lives uh in in wherever they're serving. And so they in wherever they're serving. And so they in wherever they're serving. And so they will they will instinctively understand will they will instinctively understand will they will instinctively understand why we need to do this well in the why we need to do this well in the why we need to do this well in the church and and it it'll just help build church and and it it'll just help build church and and it it'll just help build trust. Jamie, you mentioned my deacons trust. Jamie, you mentioned my deacons trust. Jamie, you mentioned my deacons book, which was kind of you, but are book, which was kind of you, but are book, which was kind of you, but are there any other resources on church there any other resources on church there any other resources on church administration? I'm actually don't think administration? I'm actually don't think administration? I'm actually don't think I'm aware of a of a great book on church I'm aware of a of a great book on church I'm aware of a of a great book on church administration, but I I may just be administration, but I I may just be administration, but I I may just be ignorant.

ignorant. ignorant. >> There's a number of books that are, I >> There's a number of books that are, I >> There's a number of books that are, I think, very comprehensive in all the think, very comprehensive in all the think, very comprehensive in all the details of church administration. Uh, details of church administration. Uh, details of church administration. Uh, but I think I'm still waiting to see a but I think I'm still waiting to see a but I think I'm still waiting to see a great book to to give sort of that great book to to give sort of that great book to to give sort of that biblical vision for administration. Uh biblical vision for administration. Uh biblical vision for administration. Uh maybe someone listening can uh find me maybe someone listening can uh find me maybe someone listening can uh find me at the church and tell me the book I at the church and tell me the book I at the church and tell me the book I haven't read yet. I'd love to hear it. haven't read yet. I'd love to hear it. haven't read yet. I'd love to hear it. >> Well, maybe it could be the book you >> Well, maybe it could be the book you >> Well, maybe it could be the book you haven't written yet. haven't written yet. haven't written yet. >> Or someone else that uh is a competent >> Or someone else that uh is a competent >> Or someone else that uh is a competent writer. writer. writer. >> I need to I need to get you Jamie >> I need to I need to get you Jamie >> I need to I need to get you Jamie together with my brother. My brother is together with my brother. My brother is together with my brother. My brother is an elder in his congregation and he's in an elder in his congregation and he's in an elder in his congregation and he's in charge of administration. So, he's not a charge of administration. So, he's not a charge of administration. So, he's not a pastor of administration, but he is an pastor of administration, but he is an pastor of administration, but he is an elder of administration and he's thought elder of administration and he's thought elder of administration and he's thought a lot about this as well. And my guess a lot about this as well. And my guess a lot about this as well. And my guess is you all would really click in how you is you all would really click in how you is you all would really click in how you think administration ought to be done in think administration ought to be done in think administration ought to be done in a local congregation that would serve a a local congregation that would serve a a local congregation that would serve a lot of evangelical churches to have that lot of evangelical churches to have that lot of evangelical churches to have that kind of a resource. kind of a resource. kind of a resource. >> So maybe this interview will spawn a >> So maybe this interview will spawn a >> So maybe this interview will spawn a book somewhere somehow to help us think book somewhere somehow to help us think book somewhere somehow to help us think better about administration. better about administration. better about administration. >> Look at this. Big things can come from >> Look at this. Big things can come from >> Look at this. Big things can come from just a few everyday pastors talking.

just a few everyday pastors talking. just a few everyday pastors talking. >> Speaking of which, thank you uh >> Speaking of which, thank you uh >> Speaking of which, thank you uh listeners for tuning in to the Everyday listeners for tuning in to the Everyday listeners for tuning in to the Everyday Pastor. We hope it's been encouraging to Pastor. We hope it's been encouraging to Pastor. We hope it's been encouraging to you. Jamie, thanks for being with us. Uh you. Jamie, thanks for being with us. Uh you. Jamie, thanks for being with us. Uh we'd encourage you listeners to check we'd encourage you listeners to check we'd encourage you listeners to check out Jaime's various books, The out Jaime's various books, The out Jaime's various books, The Compelling Community, Love the Ones Who Compelling Community, Love the Ones Who Compelling Community, Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy, Budgeting for a Healthy Drive You Crazy, Budgeting for a Healthy Drive You Crazy, Budgeting for a Healthy Church, and more. Maybe even a Church, and more. Maybe even a Church, and more. Maybe even a forthcoming title on effective church forthcoming title on effective church forthcoming title on effective church administration. We'll see. Uh but please administration. We'll see. Uh but please administration. We'll see. Uh but please do share this episode with a friend so do share this episode with a friend so do share this episode with a friend so that we can continue helping pastors that we can continue helping pastors that we can continue helping pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry. find fresh joy in the work of ministry. find fresh joy in the work of ministry. [Music]