New Resources Help You See God by Connecting Scripture (with Ben Gladd) [Gospelbound Ep. 185]

How can we show continuity? And the How can we show continuity? And the answer would be just try to use the same answer would be just try to use the same answer would be just try to use the same words [music] when possible. words [music] when possible. words [music] when possible. Try just make that extra effort right Try just make that extra effort right Try just make that extra effort right there. Try to line up these texts as there. Try to line up these texts as there. Try to line up these texts as best you can, even though it's not going best you can, even though it's not going best you can, even though it's not going to be done perfectly. Just try to do it, to be done perfectly. Just try to do it, to be done perfectly. Just try to do it, and it's going to [music] help the and it's going to [music] help the and it's going to [music] help the reader so much because reader so much because reader so much because honestly, when we do this, you feel the honestly, when we do this, you feel the honestly, when we do this, you feel the rub, I feel the rub. It rub, I feel the rub. It rub, I feel the rub. It It's very disconcerting. It's very disconcerting. It's very disconcerting. >> [music] >> Different preachers [music] get excited >> Different preachers [music] get excited about different aspects of the sermon. about different aspects of the sermon. about different aspects of the sermon. Uh some will collect and deploy Uh some will collect and deploy Uh some will collect and deploy excellent illustrations. Others just excellent illustrations. Others just excellent illustrations. Others just nail the application week after week. nail the application week after week. nail the application week after week. And others are just so gifted at being And others are just so gifted at being And others are just so gifted at being able to really reach your heart. able to really reach your heart. able to really reach your heart. What really fires me up are the What really fires me up are the What really fires me up are the connections between the Old and New connections between the Old and New connections between the Old and New Testaments, the way God's plan of Testaments, the way God's plan of Testaments, the way God's plan of redemption unfolds in familiar and new redemption unfolds in familiar and new redemption unfolds in familiar and new ways from Genesis to Revelation.

ways from Genesis to Revelation. ways from Genesis to Revelation. So, you know I'd be excited about an So, you know I'd be excited about an So, you know I'd be excited about an excellent new resource, the CSB excellent new resource, the CSB excellent new resource, the CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, Connecting Scripture New Testament, Connecting Scripture New Testament, edited by G.K. Beale and Benjamin Gladd. edited by G.K. Beale and Benjamin Gladd. edited by G.K. Beale and Benjamin Gladd. This study Bible includes a robust This study Bible includes a robust This study Bible includes a robust cross-reference system that will help cross-reference system that will help cross-reference system that will help you see Old Testament quotations, you see Old Testament quotations, you see Old Testament quotations, allusions, and parallels within the New allusions, and parallels within the New allusions, and parallels within the New Testament, so you can see all 66 books Testament, so you can see all 66 books Testament, so you can see all 66 books as a unified story from God. You'll also as a unified story from God. You'll also as a unified story from God. You'll also find book introductions, study note find book introductions, study note find book introductions, study note commentary, articles, charts, and commentary, articles, charts, and commentary, articles, charts, and infographics. infographics. infographics. I'm joined now on Gospel Bound by I'm joined now on Gospel Bound by I'm joined now on Gospel Bound by Benjamin Gladd to delight in these Benjamin Gladd to delight in these Benjamin Gladd to delight in these connections, or maybe also in some ways connections, or maybe also in some ways connections, or maybe also in some ways where to tamp down my enthusiasm. Ben, where to tamp down my enthusiasm. Ben, where to tamp down my enthusiasm. Ben, thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. >> Hey, it's so good to be here, Colin. >> Hey, it's so good to be here, Colin. >> Hey, it's so good to be here, Colin. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for having me on. >> Well, in addition, Ben, to all of the >> Well, in addition, Ben, to all of the >> Well, in addition, Ben, to all of the many many books and book series that you many many books and book series that you many many books and book series that you write and that you edit. You've also write and that you edit. You've also write and that you edit. You've also been working with me leading TGC's been working with me leading TGC's been working with me leading TGC's Carson Center for Theological Renewal Carson Center for Theological Renewal Carson Center for Theological Renewal since 2024. since 2024. since 2024. Uh you left Reformed Theological Uh you left Reformed Theological Uh you left Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi to take Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi to take Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi to take up this important new post. I thought up this important new post. I thought up this important new post. I thought it'd just be helpful, Ben, to bring us it'd just be helpful, Ben, to bring us it'd just be helpful, Ben, to bring us up to speed on what the center does and up to speed on what the center does and up to speed on what the center does and what the center is planning.

what the center is planning. what the center is planning. >> Yeah, sure. So, uh I I took this post >> Yeah, sure. So, uh I I took this post >> Yeah, sure. So, uh I I took this post because I want to see biblical theology because I want to see biblical theology because I want to see biblical theology to the ends of the earth. to the ends of the earth. to the ends of the earth. That's what gets me super excited about That's what gets me super excited about That's what gets me super excited about what I do, what I edit, what I write, what I do, what I edit, what I write, what I do, what I edit, what I write, and what this uh study Bible's about. and what this uh study Bible's about. and what this uh study Bible's about. And that's precisely what And that's precisely what And that's precisely what Don Carson is about and the Carson Don Carson is about and the Carson Don Carson is about and the Carson Center is trying to do. Center is trying to do. Center is trying to do. We create resources for pastors, for the We create resources for pastors, for the We create resources for pastors, for the church, and whether in most of them are church, and whether in most of them are church, and whether in most of them are biblical theological in its focus. biblical theological in its focus. biblical theological in its focus. And we create them, we upload them, and And we create them, we upload them, and And we create them, we upload them, and we give them away. Which is just Who we give them away. Which is just Who we give them away. Which is just Who does that? And the answer is, well, does that? And the answer is, well, does that? And the answer is, well, nobody Nobody in their right mind would nobody Nobody in their right mind would nobody Nobody in their right mind would do that. So, that's really what we're do that. So, that's really what we're do that. So, that's really what we're trying to pull off here is to create trying to pull off here is to create trying to pull off here is to create these uh these resources that the church these uh these resources that the church these uh these resources that the church desperately needs. Everybody has an desperately needs. Everybody has an desperately needs. Everybody has an internet connection, but not everybody internet connection, but not everybody internet connection, but not everybody has a seminary or college-level has a seminary or college-level has a seminary or college-level education. So, we're trying to create education. So, we're trying to create education. So, we're trying to create these things and then distribute them these things and then distribute them these things and then distribute them freely. freely. freely. >> Just as I was walking into my office to >> Just as I was walking into my office to >> Just as I was walking into my office to record this interview, I ran into a a record this interview, I ran into a a record this interview, I ran into a a new student at Beeson Divinity School.

new student at Beeson Divinity School. new student at Beeson Divinity School. And she'd gone to Covenant College and And she'd gone to Covenant College and And she'd gone to Covenant College and she's from Malaysia, and she said, she's from Malaysia, and she said, she's from Malaysia, and she said, "I just want to stop and say thank you. "I just want to stop and say thank you. "I just want to stop and say thank you. The Gospel Coalition's resources, The Gospel Coalition's resources, The Gospel Coalition's resources, especially those published in Chinese in especially those published in Chinese in especially those published in Chinese in this case, are just a huge help to my this case, are just a huge help to my this case, are just a huge help to my church." church." church." And as I heard that story, I thought And as I heard that story, I thought And as I heard that story, I thought about, of course, the work that you do, about, of course, the work that you do, about, of course, the work that you do, Ben, and the work that we get to Ben, and the work that we get to Ben, and the work that we get to collaborate on, and the work that Carson collaborate on, and the work that Carson collaborate on, and the work that Carson pioneered. And I remember hearing that pioneered. And I remember hearing that pioneered. And I remember hearing that vision from him vision from him vision from him really about 6 to 8 years ago, really really about 6 to 8 years ago, really really about 6 to 8 years ago, really crystallizing the way that we could use crystallizing the way that we could use crystallizing the way that we could use the accessibility of the internet and the accessibility of the internet and the accessibility of the internet and really the the cheaper costs of really the the cheaper costs of really the the cheaper costs of distribution to be able to take distribution to be able to take distribution to be able to take resources that are good, solid, resources that are good, solid, resources that are good, solid, historic, confessional, biblical and historic, confessional, biblical and historic, confessional, biblical and spread them around the world. And that spread them around the world. And that spread them around the world. And that is just what Don was so passionate about is just what Don was so passionate about is just what Don was so passionate about over his career, what you and I both over his career, what you and I both over his career, what you and I both learned from him, and what we get to do learned from him, and what we get to do learned from him, and what we get to do what we get to do together then through what we get to do together then through what we get to do together then through the Carson Center. Um thinking about the the Carson Center. Um thinking about the the Carson Center. Um thinking about the CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, uh uh uh cuz an obvious question would be why do cuz an obvious question would be why do cuz an obvious question would be why do we need another study Bible?

we need another study Bible? we need another study Bible? And I'm wondering are we supposed to use And I'm wondering are we supposed to use And I'm wondering are we supposed to use this one in replace in place of others? this one in replace in place of others? this one in replace in place of others? You know, got there's only limited room You know, got there's only limited room You know, got there's only limited room on the shelf, Ben. We don't have all on the shelf, Ben. We don't have all on the shelf, Ben. We don't have all these behind you and we don't all have these behind you and we don't all have these behind you and we don't all have that room. I got a big blank wall behind that room. I got a big blank wall behind that room. I got a big blank wall behind me. me. me. So So So >> Look at that. That's a lot of space. A >> Look at that. That's a lot of space. A >> Look at that. That's a lot of space. A lot of study Bibles could go up there. lot of study Bibles could go up there. lot of study Bibles could go up there. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Bloody Send invitations to publishers. >> Bloody Send invitations to publishers. >> Bloody Send invitations to publishers. Send me your study Bibles. We'll put Send me your study Bibles. We'll put Send me your study Bibles. We'll put them We'll put them up behind you. them We'll put them up behind you. them We'll put them up behind you. >> Um so yeah, how is this meant to be used >> Um so yeah, how is this meant to be used >> Um so yeah, how is this meant to be used alongside some other resources that alongside some other resources that alongside some other resources that especially for those of us in the west, especially for those of us in the west, especially for those of us in the west, especially in the United States, we're especially in the United States, we're especially in the United States, we're blessed to have an abundance of blessed to have an abundance of blessed to have an abundance of resources. How does this one fit in? resources. How does this one fit in? resources. How does this one fit in? >> Yeah, um when I was working on this >> Yeah, um when I was working on this >> Yeah, um when I was working on this thing, thing, thing, the study Bible, I often I was I was I the study Bible, I often I was I was I the study Bible, I often I was I was I thought what why am I why am I doing thought what why am I why am I doing thought what why am I why am I doing this? You know, whenever you write you this? You know, whenever you write you this? You know, whenever you write you I'm sure you feel the same way. Whenever I'm sure you feel the same way. Whenever I'm sure you feel the same way. Whenever you write a book, you're going you have you write a book, you're going you have you write a book, you're going you have these moments. It's 2:00 a.m. You're in these moments. It's 2:00 a.m. You're in these moments. It's 2:00 a.m. You're in bed and you're like, "What am I doing?" bed and you're like, "What am I doing?" bed and you're like, "What am I doing?" This This This at the time it sounded like a good idea. at the time it sounded like a good idea. at the time it sounded like a good idea. And the publisher's like, "Yeah, this is And the publisher's like, "Yeah, this is And the publisher's like, "Yeah, this is a great idea." But then a year later, 2 a great idea." But then a year later, 2 a great idea." But then a year later, 2 years later, you're like, "I'm not sure years later, you're like, "I'm not sure years later, you're like, "I'm not sure this is a good idea."

this is a good idea." this is a good idea." You have these moments of of colossal You have these moments of of colossal You have these moments of of colossal doubt and you're like, "Well, I'm doubt and you're like, "Well, I'm doubt and you're like, "Well, I'm already a year in. I I might as well already a year in. I I might as well already a year in. I I might as well keep going and if it fails, it fails. keep going and if it fails, it fails. keep going and if it fails, it fails. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] It What are you going to do?" It What are you going to do?" It What are you going to do?" >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> And there So there really were moments >> And there So there really were moments >> And there So there really were moments when I was like, when I was like, when I was like, "Why am I doing this? Surely surely "Why am I doing this? Surely surely "Why am I doing this? Surely surely somebody else is going to do this better somebody else is going to do this better somebody else is going to do this better than I can do it or or for for me that than I can do it or or for for me that than I can do it or or for for me that my anxiety was my anxiety was my anxiety was if I'm doing this the way that I think if I'm doing this the way that I think if I'm doing this the way that I think I'm doing this or it should be done I'm doing this or it should be done I'm doing this or it should be done I feel like I'm alone here because I feel like I'm alone here because I feel like I'm alone here because nobody has attempted to to quite pull nobody has attempted to to quite pull nobody has attempted to to quite pull off what I'm doing because yes there are off what I'm doing because yes there are off what I'm doing because yes there are I actually googled this the other day I actually googled this the other day I actually googled this the other day how many study Bibles there are and it's how many study Bibles there are and it's how many study Bibles there are and it's like over a hundred which is terrifying. like over a hundred which is terrifying. like over a hundred which is terrifying. But out of those hundred there's there's But out of those hundred there's there's But out of those hundred there's there's not one that's anywhere close to what I not one that's anywhere close to what I not one that's anywhere close to what I and Greg Beale tried to pull off and and Greg Beale tried to pull off and and Greg Beale tried to pull off and that is to just change the entire that is to just change the entire that is to just change the entire reading experience. It's not so most reading experience. It's not so most reading experience. It's not so most study Bibles are just better notes at study Bibles are just better notes at study Bibles are just better notes at the bottom better graphics better maps the bottom better graphics better maps the bottom better graphics better maps or whatever.

or whatever. or whatever. We went beyond that we're actually We went beyond that we're actually We went beyond that we're actually trying to change the reading experience trying to change the reading experience trying to change the reading experience of the text itself. We we're we're not of the text itself. We we're we're not of the text itself. We we're we're not manipulating the content of the text but manipulating the content of the text but manipulating the content of the text but but the formatting whether it's green or but the formatting whether it's green or but the formatting whether it's green or blue text and change how you read the blue text and change how you read the blue text and change how you read the text itself. So text itself. So text itself. So Does that make sense? So yes it's it is Does that make sense? So yes it's it is Does that make sense? So yes it's it is very cluttered but for really what it is very cluttered but for really what it is very cluttered but for really what it is I it's still is alone. It's it's not I it's still is alone. It's it's not I it's still is alone. It's it's not mutually mutually exclusive. I mean the mutually mutually exclusive. I mean the mutually mutually exclusive. I mean the ESV Study Bible was just terrific the ESV Study Bible was just terrific the ESV Study Bible was just terrific the CSB NIV all those are just terrific and CSB NIV all those are just terrific and CSB NIV all those are just terrific and yes please use them in tandem with this. yes please use them in tandem with this. yes please use them in tandem with this. >> Yeah let's talk about the the green and >> Yeah let's talk about the the green and >> Yeah let's talk about the the green and the blue fonts just to give people some the blue fonts just to give people some the blue fonts just to give people some handholds on what's going on there and handholds on what's going on there and handholds on what's going on there and put that in the context also Ben of the put that in the context also Ben of the put that in the context also Ben of the broader reading experience which I think broader reading experience which I think broader reading experience which I think you just alluded to well there. you just alluded to well there. you just alluded to well there. When I'm sitting down in a small group When I'm sitting down in a small group When I'm sitting down in a small group that I'm leading that I'm leading that I'm leading when I'm preaching when I'm preaching when I'm preaching when I'm doing all sorts of different when I'm doing all sorts of different when I'm doing all sorts of different work teaching and cultural apologetics work teaching and cultural apologetics work teaching and cultural apologetics or whatnot I find that the biggest or whatnot I find that the biggest or whatnot I find that the biggest challenge consistently challenge consistently challenge consistently is to take people into the world of the is to take people into the world of the is to take people into the world of the Bible.

Bible. Bible. And I think it's one of the major And I think it's one of the major And I think it's one of the major challenges especially in the United challenges especially in the United challenges especially in the United States Evangelical culture tends to have States Evangelical culture tends to have States Evangelical culture tends to have an application we tend to look for an application we tend to look for an application we tend to look for application. We tend to want it to be application. We tend to want it to be application. We tend to want it to be individual, focused on you know, what individual, focused on you know, what individual, focused on you know, what does this mean for me right now? does this mean for me right now? does this mean for me right now? And it's and it's And it's and it's And it's and it's not non-contextual. not non-contextual. not non-contextual. There's not a lot of regard for the There's not a lot of regard for the There's not a lot of regard for the original uh place, uh original original original uh place, uh original original original uh place, uh original original setting, let alone the backstory of setting, let alone the backstory of setting, let alone the backstory of that. So, I would assume then what that. So, I would assume then what that. So, I would assume then what you're trying to do and again explain you're trying to do and again explain you're trying to do and again explain the green and the blue fonts is you're the green and the blue fonts is you're the green and the blue fonts is you're trying to help immerse people immerse trying to help immerse people immerse trying to help immerse people immerse people in the world of the Bible itself people in the world of the Bible itself people in the world of the Bible itself as those people would have been as those people would have been as those people would have been receiving those those those letters, receiving those those those letters, receiving those those those letters, those and then ultimately those those those and then ultimately those those those and then ultimately those those manuscripts. manuscripts. manuscripts. >> Yeah, so think of it like this. Um when >> Yeah, so think of it like this. Um when >> Yeah, so think of it like this. Um when you turn to the New Testament, you turn to the New Testament, you turn to the New Testament, publishers do a really good job of publishers do a really good job of publishers do a really good job of organizing the Old Testament quotations organizing the Old Testament quotations organizing the Old Testament quotations and some of them put them in in bold and some of them put them in in bold and some of them put them in in bold font. Uh ESV puts them in quotations, uh font. Uh ESV puts them in quotations, uh font. Uh ESV puts them in quotations, uh so does NIV, NASB capitalize if you have so does NIV, NASB capitalize if you have so does NIV, NASB capitalize if you have a NASB, you'll see that they capitalize a NASB, you'll see that they capitalize a NASB, you'll see that they capitalize Old Testament quotations. So that when Old Testament quotations. So that when Old Testament quotations. So that when you're reading the New Testament, you you're reading the New Testament, you you're reading the New Testament, you come across, oh, that's Old Testament come across, oh, that's Old Testament come across, oh, that's Old Testament there. That's that's some type of there. That's that's some type of there. That's that's some type of quotation. You may not know what that quotation. You may not know what that quotation. You may not know what that is, but you recognize, oh, they've is, but you recognize, oh, they've is, but you recognize, oh, they've flagged this.

flagged this. flagged this. Well, there are about 350 of those. Well, there are about 350 of those. Well, there are about 350 of those. However, that's only 11% However, that's only 11% However, that's only 11% of what the New Testament authors are of what the New Testament authors are of what the New Testament authors are really doing. The other 89% really doing. The other 89% really doing. The other 89% they are sprinkling in allusions they are sprinkling in allusions they are sprinkling in allusions throughout these paragraphs in chapters. throughout these paragraphs in chapters. throughout these paragraphs in chapters. There are right around and it's actually There are right around and it's actually There are right around and it's actually a conservative number, Colin, right a conservative number, Colin, right a conservative number, Colin, right around 3,000 allusions. So, 350 around 3,000 allusions. So, 350 around 3,000 allusions. So, 350 quotations, 3,000 allusions. quotations, 3,000 allusions. quotations, 3,000 allusions. And so, that's where the study Bible And so, that's where the study Bible And so, that's where the study Bible comes in is that I Greg and I are trying comes in is that I Greg and I are trying comes in is that I Greg and I are trying to flag, hey, that's an allusion. It we to flag, hey, that's an allusion. It we to flag, hey, that's an allusion. It we put it in green font. So that as you're put it in green font. So that as you're put it in green font. So that as you're reading the text, reading the chapter, reading the text, reading the chapter, reading the text, reading the chapter, you are immediately confronted with wait you are immediately confronted with wait you are immediately confronted with wait a minute, that's green. That means Old a minute, that's green. That means Old a minute, that's green. That means Old Testament. There's an Old Testament text Testament. There's an Old Testament text Testament. There's an Old Testament text right here and the author wants me to right here and the author wants me to right here and the author wants me to pull that text in. pull that text in. pull that text in. It's the connective tissue between the It's the connective tissue between the It's the connective tissue between the Testaments. Testaments. Testaments. And you know, you're very much into how And you know, you're very much into how And you know, you're very much into how does the Bible fit together? I'm very does the Bible fit together? I'm very does the Bible fit together? I'm very much into it.

much into it. much into it. Here's the thing, we don't have to guess Here's the thing, we don't have to guess Here's the thing, we don't have to guess how it fits together. how it fits together. how it fits together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> These documents tell us oh there this >> These documents tell us oh there this >> These documents tell us oh there this this author is leaning into Jeremiah 31 this author is leaning into Jeremiah 31 this author is leaning into Jeremiah 31 or Genesis 4 or we can study these or Genesis 4 or we can study these or Genesis 4 or we can study these connections. We don't have to guess. We connections. We don't have to guess. We connections. We don't have to guess. We don't have to try to piece it together don't have to try to piece it together don't have to try to piece it together arbitrarily or whatever. We can actually arbitrarily or whatever. We can actually arbitrarily or whatever. We can actually just read the way that they want us to just read the way that they want us to just read the way that they want us to read these things. read these things. read these things. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, Well, Well, I guess I'm glad Ben that this resource I guess I'm glad Ben that this resource I guess I'm glad Ben that this resource is out now and not when I was in is out now and not when I was in is out now and not when I was in seminary seminary seminary because if you had given Don Carson the because if you had given Don Carson the because if you had given Don Carson the idea that we were also accountable in idea that we were also accountable in idea that we were also accountable in his ex in the Pauline Epistles class on his ex in the Pauline Epistles class on his ex in the Pauline Epistles class on his quizzes for all Old Testament his quizzes for all Old Testament his quizzes for all Old Testament allusions allusions allusions and not just for all Old Testament and not just for all Old Testament and not just for all Old Testament quotations. quotations. quotations. >> Yeah, that would be a nightmare. >> Yeah, that would be a nightmare. >> Yeah, that would be a nightmare. >> My C grade on his quizzes would have >> My C grade on his quizzes would have >> My C grade on his quizzes would have been even worse. [laughter] been even worse. [laughter] been even worse. [laughter] I don't know what I possibly would have I don't know what I possibly would have I don't know what I possibly would have done there. done there. done there. >> Yeah, that would have been a really bad >> Yeah, that would have been a really bad >> Yeah, that would have been a really bad idea. idea. idea. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So again, grateful for this resource in >> So again, grateful for this resource in >> So again, grateful for this resource in well into the 21st century and not not a well into the 21st century and not not a well into the 21st century and not not a couple decades ago.

couple decades ago. couple decades ago. >> Yeah, no kidding. >> Yeah, no kidding. >> Yeah, no kidding. >> We've been talking here about >> We've been talking here about >> We've been talking here about you believe that there are there are you believe that there are there are you believe that there are there are more allusions to the Old Testament from more allusions to the Old Testament from more allusions to the Old Testament from the New Testament than readers realize the New Testament than readers realize the New Testament than readers realize or that it or clearly that are or that it or clearly that are or that it or clearly that are acknowledged in in other study Bibles acknowledged in in other study Bibles acknowledged in in other study Bibles and and even like you said even even and and even like you said even even and and even like you said even even beyond the the footnotes. I guess that's beyond the the footnotes. I guess that's beyond the the footnotes. I guess that's the closest parallel, right? To some the closest parallel, right? To some the closest parallel, right? To some editions that have all the kind of the editions that have all the kind of the editions that have all the kind of the the different footnotes and and the different footnotes and and the different footnotes and and allusions in there. allusions in there. allusions in there. >> the cross references, but it's it's hit >> the cross references, but it's it's hit >> the cross references, but it's it's hit or miss. I mean, these cross-references or miss. I mean, these cross-references or miss. I mean, these cross-references are are are they're arbitrarily put together. they're arbitrarily put together. they're arbitrarily put together. They're They're They're Not every Not everybody does it the same Not every Not everybody does it the same Not every Not everybody does it the same way. way. way. >> Yeah, okay. >> Yeah, okay. >> Yeah, okay. >> Some of them are really good. Some of >> Some of them are really good. Some of >> Some of them are really good. Some of them are really bad. them are really bad. them are really bad. >> So, I guess >> So, I guess >> So, I guess >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, I'm not the only reader >> So, I'm not the only reader >> So, I'm not the only reader So, I'm not the only reader that's had So, I'm not the only reader that's had So, I'm not the only reader that's had that experience of of looking and that experience of of looking and that experience of of looking and sometimes I'll look and say, "Wow, that sometimes I'll look and say, "Wow, that sometimes I'll look and say, "Wow, that is right on the nose." And sometimes is right on the nose." And sometimes is right on the nose." And sometimes I'll look and say, I'll look and say, I'll look and say, "What are they thinking?" What "What are they thinking?" What "What are they thinking?" What >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> was going on there and so forth. So, I >> was going on there and so forth. So, I >> was going on there and so forth. So, I don't think don't think don't think I've ever encountered anyone ever I've ever encountered anyone ever I've ever encountered anyone ever explaining how those come together. And explaining how those come together. And explaining how those come together. And of course, a lot of editions don't have of course, a lot of editions don't have of course, a lot of editions don't have them at all.

them at all. them at all. But, they're more common in in study But, they're more common in in study But, they're more common in in study Bibles, obviously. Bibles, obviously. Bibles, obviously. So, in some ways they're a step forward, So, in some ways they're a step forward, So, in some ways they're a step forward, but in some ways some ways not. but in some ways some ways not. but in some ways some ways not. Let me give you an example that I had Let me give you an example that I had Let me give you an example that I had just the other day when I was leading my just the other day when I was leading my just the other day when I was leading my leading my home group. I was teaching leading my home group. I was teaching leading my home group. I was teaching John 6 and I saw the word grumble. John 6 and I saw the word grumble. John 6 and I saw the word grumble. And immediately, of course, I'm thinking And immediately, of course, I'm thinking And immediately, of course, I'm thinking about the Hebrews in in the wilderness. about the Hebrews in in the wilderness. about the Hebrews in in the wilderness. Tell us a little bit more about what the Tell us a little bit more about what the Tell us a little bit more about what the payoff is for seeing these allusions. payoff is for seeing these allusions. payoff is for seeing these allusions. Like, what Why would I stop and Like, what Why would I stop and Like, what Why would I stop and emphasize that? I mean, again, it's me, emphasize that? I mean, again, it's me, emphasize that? I mean, again, it's me, it's you, we work together, so it's kind it's you, we work together, so it's kind it's you, we work together, so it's kind of obvious, but that's not necessarily of obvious, but that's not necessarily of obvious, but that's not necessarily how most people would do Bible study. how most people would do Bible study. how most people would do Bible study. So, why does it matter to stop and pause So, why does it matter to stop and pause So, why does it matter to stop and pause and say, "This is what it's alluding and say, "This is what it's alluding and say, "This is what it's alluding to?" to?" to?" >> Yeah, so there in John 6, I mean, you >> Yeah, so there in John 6, I mean, you >> Yeah, so there in John 6, I mean, you have Jesus' whole point is that he goes, have Jesus' whole point is that he goes, have Jesus' whole point is that he goes, "You know what? You all are just like my "You know what? You all are just like my "You know what? You all are just like my Jesus' audience he's speaking to." He's Jesus' audience he's speaking to." He's Jesus' audience he's speaking to." He's saying, "You all are just like the first saying, "You all are just like the first saying, "You all are just like the first generation of Israelites. You're generation of Israelites. You're generation of Israelites. You're repeating their behavior. You've got to repeating their behavior. You've got to repeating their behavior. You've got to cut it out." cut it out." cut it out." You are missing God's provision, which You are missing God's provision, which You are missing God's provision, which would be Jesus. You're missing it.

would be Jesus. You're missing it. would be Jesus. You're missing it. You're not trusting in what God is You're not trusting in what God is You're not trusting in what God is doing. In other words, we see history doing. In other words, we see history doing. In other words, we see history repeating itself in a very bad way. repeating itself in a very bad way. repeating itself in a very bad way. Sometimes history repeats itself in a Sometimes history repeats itself in a Sometimes history repeats itself in a good way, in this particular instance good way, in this particular instance good way, in this particular instance it's in a bad way. I There One of my it's in a bad way. I There One of my it's in a bad way. I There One of my favorite ones that I like to give is in favorite ones that I like to give is in favorite ones that I like to give is in Mark 1:7 when John the Baptist declares Mark 1:7 when John the Baptist declares Mark 1:7 when John the Baptist declares that I am that he is not worthy to stoop that I am that he is not worthy to stoop that I am that he is not worthy to stoop down and untie the strap of his sandals down and untie the strap of his sandals down and untie the strap of his sandals and that's an odd it's it's an odd way and that's an odd it's it's an odd way and that's an odd it's it's an odd way to say that he is unworthy. Some people to say that he is unworthy. Some people to say that he is unworthy. Some people take it to be a reference to his his take it to be a reference to his his take it to be a reference to his his status as a servant. status as a servant. status as a servant. It's possible, but I think it actually It's possible, but I think it actually It's possible, but I think it actually goes back to Exodus 3:5 goes back to Exodus 3:5 goes back to Exodus 3:5 or Exodus yeah Exodus 3:5 with Moses at or Exodus yeah Exodus 3:5 with Moses at or Exodus yeah Exodus 3:5 with Moses at the burning bush and God says, "Take off the burning bush and God says, "Take off the burning bush and God says, "Take off your sandals." And so he he takes off your sandals." And so he he takes off your sandals." And so he he takes off his sandals the strap of his sandals. his sandals the strap of his sandals. his sandals the strap of his sandals. Well, what's probably going on here is Well, what's probably going on here is Well, what's probably going on here is that Jesus is Yahweh incarnate. This is that Jesus is Yahweh incarnate. This is that Jesus is Yahweh incarnate. This is this burning bush moment here this burning bush moment here this burning bush moment here in that everywhere Jesus steps in the in that everywhere Jesus steps in the in that everywhere Jesus steps in the Gospel of Mark, it's the presence of God Gospel of Mark, it's the presence of God Gospel of Mark, it's the presence of God on earth. It's a it's as though he's the on earth. It's a it's as though he's the on earth. It's a it's as though he's the burning bush moving throughout the burning bush moving throughout the burning bush moving throughout the narrative and it's where in other words, narrative and it's where in other words, narrative and it's where in other words, everywhere Jesus steps is holy ground.

everywhere Jesus steps is holy ground. everywhere Jesus steps is holy ground. And this is the awesome presence of God. And this is the awesome presence of God. And this is the awesome presence of God. In fact, a little bit later on in Mark's In fact, a little bit later on in Mark's In fact, a little bit later on in Mark's Gospel just like 15 verses later, the Gospel just like 15 verses later, the Gospel just like 15 verses later, the demon says that Jesus, "Oh, you're the demon says that Jesus, "Oh, you're the demon says that Jesus, "Oh, you're the holy one of God." Do you see? That's holy one of God." Do you see? That's holy one of God." Do you see? That's Exodus 3. Exodus 3. Exodus 3. Those are the sorts of things that Those are the sorts of things that Those are the sorts of things that allusions they're so rich they're so allusions they're so rich they're so allusions they're so rich they're so powerful and they really put things powerful and they really put things powerful and they really put things together very nicely for us. We'll put together very nicely for us. We'll put together very nicely for us. We'll put this in the in the show notes, but this in the in the show notes, but this in the in the show notes, but people can check out your article for people can check out your article for people can check out your article for the Carson Center. Keep watch for the Carson Center. Keep watch for the Carson Center. Keep watch for biblical allusions was published July biblical allusions was published July biblical allusions was published July 25th, 2024. 25th, 2024. 25th, 2024. >> Little while back. >> Little while back. >> Little while back. >> that? Not long not long after you you >> that? Not long not long after you you >> that? Not long not long after you you got here. got here. got here. >> I was I was such a wee lad then. >> I was I was such a wee lad then. >> I was I was such a wee lad then. >> [laughter] >> Different You've You've grown You've >> Different You've You've grown You've grown You've grown so much since then, grown You've grown so much since then, grown You've grown so much since then, man. man. man. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's right. Finally eating steak and >> That's right. Finally eating steak and >> That's right. Finally eating steak and potatoes. >> Left behind now the solid food. >> Left behind now the solid food. Um Okay, give us another give us another Um Okay, give us another give us another Um Okay, give us another give us another illusion. I mean one one that illusion. I mean one one that illusion. I mean one one that one of your favorites, one that it would one of your favorites, one that it would one of your favorites, one that it would just be easy to miss and then afterward, just be easy to miss and then afterward, just be easy to miss and then afterward, this is how I often feel in Bible study.

this is how I often feel in Bible study. this is how I often feel in Bible study. Afterward I'm thinking, how could I have Afterward I'm thinking, how could I have Afterward I'm thinking, how could I have possibly missed that? How how could I possibly missed that? How how could I possibly missed that? How how could I have overlooked it? have overlooked it? have overlooked it? >> Yes. Ooh, so another one. Let's talk >> Yes. Ooh, so another one. Let's talk >> Yes. Ooh, so another one. Let's talk about about about I have my Bible out here so we can you I have my Bible out here so we can you I have my Bible out here so we can you know, we can know, we can know, we can uh just explore this really quickly. Oh, uh just explore this really quickly. Oh, uh just explore this really quickly. Oh, here's one. Uh since we're in Mark 1, I here's one. Uh since we're in Mark 1, I here's one. Uh since we're in Mark 1, I guess I'll just keep ticking along here. guess I'll just keep ticking along here. guess I'll just keep ticking along here. Jesus tells his disciples, he says, Jesus tells his disciples, he says, Jesus tells his disciples, he says, "Follow me." Jesus told them, "and I "Follow me." Jesus told them, "and I "Follow me." Jesus told them, "and I will make you fish for people." will make you fish for people." will make you fish for people." And that odd expression, you read it and And that odd expression, you read it and And that odd expression, you read it and you're like, "Fish for people." you're like, "Fish for people." you're like, "Fish for people." What is What is that? What is What is that? What is What is that? Well, that's right out of Jeremiah Well, that's right out of Jeremiah Well, that's right out of Jeremiah 16:16. 16:16. 16:16. Because in Jeremiah 16 Because in Jeremiah 16 Because in Jeremiah 16 the God is sending uh the God is sending uh the God is sending uh in these these they're probably in these these they're probably in these these they're probably Babylonian soldiers Babylonian soldiers Babylonian soldiers and they're going to hunt down and and they're going to hunt down and and they're going to hunt down and they're going to fish for people that is they're going to fish for people that is they're going to fish for people that is unbelievers unbelievers unbelievers and that they're going to judge these and that they're going to judge these and that they're going to judge these unbelievers, unbelieving Israelites unbelievers, unbelieving Israelites unbelievers, unbelieving Israelites and but it's not just total and but it's not just total and but it's not just total annihilation. It's not just total annihilation. It's not just total annihilation. It's not just total judgment in order to refine God's judgment in order to refine God's judgment in order to refine God's people, to root out these idolatrous people, to root out these idolatrous people, to root out these idolatrous Israelites. If we put that together here Israelites. If we put that together here Israelites. If we put that together here with what's going on with Jesus with what's going on with Jesus with what's going on with Jesus then the disciples are hunting down then the disciples are hunting down then the disciples are hunting down idolatrous Israelites who do not believe idolatrous Israelites who do not believe idolatrous Israelites who do not believe in him and so they are bringing some in him and so they are bringing some in him and so they are bringing some level of judgment against them. On the

level of judgment against them. On the level of judgment against them. On the other hand, they are restoring the other hand, they are restoring the other hand, they are restoring the Israelites and bringing them into a Israelites and bringing them into a Israelites and bringing them into a healthy relationship with God. So it's healthy relationship with God. So it's healthy relationship with God. So it's really a dual it's it's a both and it really a dual it's it's a both and it really a dual it's it's a both and it fishing for people can be a negative fishing for people can be a negative fishing for people can be a negative thing if you're in idolatry, thing if you're in idolatry, thing if you're in idolatry, but it can be a positive thing if you but it can be a positive thing if you but it can be a positive thing if you respond well to the gospel. respond well to the gospel. respond well to the gospel. That's the kind of thing that allusions That's the kind of thing that allusions That's the kind of thing that allusions do. do. do. >> Oh, that's very helpful. >> Oh, that's very helpful. >> Oh, that's very helpful. Yeah, that that is something I've never Yeah, that that is something I've never Yeah, that that is something I've never thought about before. I've not gone back thought about before. I've not gone back thought about before. I've not gone back to see what the origin of that was, but to see what the origin of that was, but to see what the origin of that was, but now all of a sudden I'm recognizing the now all of a sudden I'm recognizing the now all of a sudden I'm recognizing the connection here to the prophets in connection here to the prophets in connection here to the prophets in general because one of the things I general because one of the things I general because one of the things I teach most often with the prophets is teach most often with the prophets is teach most often with the prophets is the relationship between the prophets the relationship between the prophets the relationship between the prophets and the parables. And then Jesus as a and the parables. And then Jesus as a and the parables. And then Jesus as a prophet. And the point of the parables prophet. And the point of the parables prophet. And the point of the parables being not illumination, but judgment being not illumination, but judgment being not illumination, but judgment against their hearing. against their hearing. against their hearing. >> If you reject it. If you reject it. >> If you reject it. If you reject it. >> If you reject it. If you reject it. >> Exactly, but but usually they're being >> Exactly, but but usually they're being >> Exactly, but but usually they're being taught to the Pharisees. taught to the Pharisees. taught to the Pharisees. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Who are the ones who are rejecting them. >> Who are the ones who are rejecting them. >> Who are the ones who are rejecting them. And so then you see the message coming And so then you see the message coming And so then you see the message coming especially from Isaiah. I'm saying these especially from Isaiah. I'm saying these especially from Isaiah. I'm saying these things so that you will not believe.

things so that you will not believe. things so that you will not believe. So interesting going back then to the So interesting going back then to the So interesting going back then to the fishers of men, that fits within that fishers of men, that fits within that fishers of men, that fits within that prophetic tradition of prophetic tradition of prophetic tradition of yes, some will be spared. Some will be yes, some will be spared. Some will be yes, some will be spared. Some will be plucked out and saved. And others for plucked out and saved. And others for plucked out and saved. And others for this will be a word of warning of this will be a word of warning of this will be a word of warning of judgment. judgment. judgment. >> Yeah, that's right. You know, a lot of >> Yeah, that's right. You know, a lot of >> Yeah, that's right. You know, a lot of this colony is um this colony is um this colony is um Jesus or the apostles, they say they'll Jesus or the apostles, they say they'll Jesus or the apostles, they say they'll they'll have like weird expressions, they'll have like weird expressions, they'll have like weird expressions, whether it's fishers of men, whether it's fishers of men, whether it's fishers of men, um it it's it's a very often it's these um it it's it's a very often it's these um it it's it's a very often it's these weird expressions that goes back to the weird expressions that goes back to the weird expressions that goes back to the Old Testament. Old Testament. Old Testament. Sometimes it's a cultural thing, but 80 Sometimes it's a cultural thing, but 80 Sometimes it's a cultural thing, but 80 70 to 80% of the 70 to 80% of the 70 to 80% of the whenever you get these goofy like what whenever you get these goofy like what whenever you get these goofy like what in the world that doesn't even make in the world that doesn't even make in the world that doesn't even make sense, that's there's probably an Old sense, that's there's probably an Old sense, that's there's probably an Old Testament background Testament background Testament background behind that expression that you just behind that expression that you just behind that expression that you just need to work out. need to work out. need to work out. >> Let me then give you the softball of all >> Let me then give you the softball of all >> Let me then give you the softball of all softballs. softballs. softballs. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It seems as though >> It seems as though >> It seems as though a lot of people find Revelation to be a lot of people find Revelation to be a lot of people find Revelation to be impenetrable, impenetrable, impenetrable, uh impossible to understand. uh impossible to understand. uh impossible to understand. Well, Greg Beale, probably more than Well, Greg Beale, probably more than Well, Greg Beale, probably more than anyone else in our generation has helped anyone else in our generation has helped anyone else in our generation has helped to bring that open to people to say to bring that open to people to say to bring that open to people to say this is not this is not impossible to this is not this is not impossible to this is not this is not impossible to understand at all. It's just you just understand at all. It's just you just understand at all. It's just you just need to know the Old Testament.

need to know the Old Testament. need to know the Old Testament. So, give us an example of of how that So, give us an example of of how that So, give us an example of of how that plays out in Revelation. plays out in Revelation. plays out in Revelation. >> Yeah, so if you were to turn >> Yeah, so if you were to turn >> Yeah, so if you were to turn in fact when I gave I gave Don Carson in fact when I gave I gave Don Carson in fact when I gave I gave Don Carson one of these connecting scriptures one of these connecting scriptures one of these connecting scriptures uh study Bibles a couple weeks ago and uh study Bibles a couple weeks ago and uh study Bibles a couple weeks ago and we were in his house and he immediately we were in his house and he immediately we were in his house and he immediately turned to Revelation 1. He's like, "I turned to Revelation 1. He's like, "I turned to Revelation 1. He's like, "I got to see Revelation 1." got to see Revelation 1." got to see Revelation 1." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And he turns to it and it's all green. >> And he turns to it and it's all green. >> And he turns to it and it's all green. Like all the words Like all the words Like all the words are green. are green. are green. And um I tell I tell my students that And um I tell I tell my students that And um I tell I tell my students that the green the green here in Revelation the green the green here in Revelation the green the green here in Revelation which is there a lot it's it's about 400 which is there a lot it's it's about 400 which is there a lot it's it's about 400 allusions just in the book. It's the allusions just in the book. It's the allusions just in the book. It's the most amount of allusions in any New most amount of allusions in any New most amount of allusions in any New Testament book. Of course it is. Testament book. Of course it is. Testament book. Of course it is. A lot of these are I call them Old A lot of these are I call them Old A lot of these are I call them Old Testament emojis. Testament emojis. Testament emojis. So, in our culture we don't know what So, in our culture we don't know what So, in our culture we don't know what the word symbol is. Like if you were if the word symbol is. Like if you were if the word symbol is. Like if you were if you were to talk to people about symbols you were to talk to people about symbols you were to talk to people about symbols that word symbol I mean it's really it that word symbol I mean it's really it that word symbol I mean it's really it shows you it shows you our illiteracy. shows you it shows you our illiteracy. shows you it shows you our illiteracy. But even that word symbol is not even But even that word symbol is not even But even that word symbol is not even used in our discourse. But you know what used in our discourse. But you know what used in our discourse. But you know what word is used? Emoji.

word is used? Emoji. word is used? Emoji. And emoji communicates very well the And emoji communicates very well the And emoji communicates very well the idea of a symbol. idea of a symbol. idea of a symbol. Cuz it's a picture that does different Cuz it's a picture that does different Cuz it's a picture that does different things with it. And so really the book things with it. And so really the book things with it. And so really the book of Revelation is filled with Old of Revelation is filled with Old of Revelation is filled with Old Testament emojis in the trick is to Testament emojis in the trick is to Testament emojis in the trick is to recognize them to see how they function recognize them to see how they function recognize them to see how they function in the Old Testament and then you just in the Old Testament and then you just in the Old Testament and then you just bring them on into the New Testament. bring them on into the New Testament. bring them on into the New Testament. Bring them into the book and you and Bring them into the book and you and Bring them into the book and you and what's so unique with Revelation is how what's so unique with Revelation is how what's so unique with Revelation is how the emojis are clustered. This is why the emojis are clustered. This is why the emojis are clustered. This is why Revelation's utterly unique in many Revelation's utterly unique in many Revelation's utterly unique in many ways. ways. ways. It's it's John's brilliance of he'll It's it's John's brilliance of he'll It's it's John's brilliance of he'll take three different emojis that are take three different emojis that are take three different emojis that are scattered in the Old Testament and he scattered in the Old Testament and he scattered in the Old Testament and he will will will put them on top of each other, and he'll put them on top of each other, and he'll put them on top of each other, and he'll let the emojis communicate with each let the emojis communicate with each let the emojis communicate with each other in the new and it's that other in the new and it's that other in the new and it's that brilliance right there, which actually brilliance right there, which actually brilliance right there, which actually makes the book a little tricky at times. makes the book a little tricky at times. makes the book a little tricky at times. >> Yeah, tricky for sure, but >> Yeah, tricky for sure, but >> Yeah, tricky for sure, but >> Tricky for sure, but you can but you can >> Tricky for sure, but you can but you can >> Tricky for sure, but you can but you can figure it out. You just go back to the figure it out. You just go back to the figure it out. You just go back to the Old Testament, you figure out how was Old Testament, you figure out how was Old Testament, you figure out how was that Old Testament emoji working, what's that Old Testament emoji working, what's that Old Testament emoji working, what's it talking about, then you bring it back it talking about, then you bring it back it talking about, then you bring it back in, and you're like, "Oh, it actually in, and you're like, "Oh, it actually in, and you're like, "Oh, it actually wasn't that difficult."

wasn't that difficult." wasn't that difficult." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, but it sends you back to Ezekiel, So, but it sends you back to Ezekiel, So, but it sends you back to Ezekiel, and then that's really confusing. and then that's really confusing. and then that's really confusing. >> tricky. It's a little tricky. >> tricky. It's a little tricky. >> tricky. It's a little tricky. >> I got all these wheels. >> I got all these wheels. >> I got all these wheels. >> Lots of wheels. A lot of wheels >> Lots of wheels. A lot of wheels >> Lots of wheels. A lot of wheels spinning. spinning. spinning. >> with these wheels. >> with these wheels. >> with these wheels. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> How many people diving in preaching on >> How many people diving in preaching on >> How many people diving in preaching on that part? that part? that part? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um all right, so let's try the opposite. >> Um all right, so let's try the opposite. >> Um all right, so let's try the opposite. I'm going to put you on the spot. I'm going to put you on the spot. I'm going to put you on the spot. An allusion or connection that everyone An allusion or connection that everyone An allusion or connection that everyone else seems to assume, else seems to assume, else seems to assume, but you're not buying. but you're not buying. but you're not buying. You kind of alluded to this earlier with You kind of alluded to this earlier with You kind of alluded to this earlier with Exodus as an example. Exodus as an example. Exodus as an example. >> that's tricky. So, how about how about >> that's tricky. So, how about how about >> that's tricky. So, how about how about how about I give you this one? I think how about I give you this one? I think how about I give you this one? I think it's there, but I think it's doing it's there, but I think it's doing it's there, but I think it's doing I think it's more radical than what I think it's more radical than what I think it's more radical than what people think, and that's in John 1:1. In people think, and that's in John 1:1. In people think, and that's in John 1:1. In the beginning was the word, and the word the beginning was the word, and the word the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. That was with God, and the word was God. That was with God, and the word was God. That I mean, you turn to any cross-reference, I mean, you turn to any cross-reference, I mean, you turn to any cross-reference, that's going to say Genesis 1:1. And I that's going to say Genesis 1:1. And I that's going to say Genesis 1:1. And I think most people get that. They're think most people get that. They're think most people get that. They're like, "Okay, like, "Okay, like, "Okay, they open up John's Gospel, and you're they open up John's Gospel, and you're they open up John's Gospel, and you're like, "Yes, Genesis 1, Jesus is the like, "Yes, Genesis 1, Jesus is the like, "Yes, Genesis 1, Jesus is the word, got it." word, got it." word, got it." But I'm like, "No, no, no, hold on. But I'm like, "No, no, no, hold on. But I'm like, "No, no, no, hold on. Let's Let's stop and think about what Let's Let's stop and think about what Let's Let's stop and think about what John is doing." He's doing something John is doing." He's doing something John is doing." He's doing something that's pretty radical. He's turning in that's pretty radical. He's turning in that's pretty radical. He's turning in his Bible, his Bible, his Bible, he doesn't have this, but let's say he he doesn't have this, but let's say he he doesn't have this, but let's say he turns into this Old Testament Bible that turns into this Old Testament Bible that turns into this Old Testament Bible that he has, he opens it up, he goes to to he has, he opens it up, he goes to to he has, he opens it up, he goes to to Genesis 1:1, Genesis 1:1, Genesis 1:1, and he proceeds to reread Genesis 1, and he proceeds to reread Genesis 1, and he proceeds to reread Genesis 1, but he's going to do it in a way where but he's going to do it in a way where but he's going to do it in a way where Jesus is in Genesis 1:1. Like he's not

Jesus is in Genesis 1:1. Like he's not Jesus is in Genesis 1:1. Like he's not he's not saying, "Oh, Jesus is kind of he's not saying, "Oh, Jesus is kind of he's not saying, "Oh, Jesus is kind of connected to Genesis 1:1." connected to Genesis 1:1." connected to Genesis 1:1." That he's loosely associated with the That he's loosely associated with the That he's loosely associated with the God of Genesis 1:1. He's re-reading God of Genesis 1:1. He's re-reading God of Genesis 1:1. He's re-reading Genesis 1:1 and he's inserting Jesus Genesis 1:1 and he's inserting Jesus Genesis 1:1 and he's inserting Jesus into the very fabric into the very fabric into the very fabric of what God is doing in Genesis 1. I of what God is doing in Genesis 1. I of what God is doing in Genesis 1. I mean, you talk about a Christological mean, you talk about a Christological mean, you talk about a Christological reading of the Old Testament. That's reading of the Old Testament. That's reading of the Old Testament. That's absolutely fundamental absolutely fundamental absolutely fundamental to the identity of God. John is saying, to the identity of God. John is saying, to the identity of God. John is saying, "Yes, Jesus did that. He He's right "Yes, Jesus did that. He He's right "Yes, Jesus did that. He He's right there in Genesis 1:1 in that he there in Genesis 1:1 in that he there in Genesis 1:1 in that he participates in this process of creating participates in this process of creating participates in this process of creating all things." all things." all things." In other words, people are right to see In other words, people are right to see In other words, people are right to see Genesis 1:1 behind John 1:1, but they Genesis 1:1 behind John 1:1, but they Genesis 1:1 behind John 1:1, but they fail to appreciate the gravity, the fail to appreciate the gravity, the fail to appreciate the gravity, the depth at what John is actually doing. depth at what John is actually doing. depth at what John is actually doing. >> Interesting. Maybe a little little help >> Interesting. Maybe a little little help >> Interesting. Maybe a little little help from Paul on Colossians 1:16. from Paul on Colossians 1:16. from Paul on Colossians 1:16. >> Maybe Yes, how about that? You know, the >> Maybe Yes, how about that? You know, the >> Maybe Yes, how about that? You know, the the test would be this.

the test would be this. the test would be this. To have an old to If If you imagine To have an old to If If you imagine To have an old to If If you imagine writing a paper. So, let's say you're at writing a paper. So, let's say you're at writing a paper. So, let's say you're at a seminary a seminary a seminary at a borderline evangelical seminary and at a borderline evangelical seminary and at a borderline evangelical seminary and you're in an Old Testament class and you you're in an Old Testament class and you you're in an Old Testament class and you argue you argue that Jesus is doing what argue you argue that Jesus is doing what argue you argue that Jesus is doing what God does in Genesis 1. That Old God does in Genesis 1. That Old God does in Genesis 1. That Old Testament prof is probably going to fail Testament prof is probably going to fail Testament prof is probably going to fail you. you. you. I I think a lot of Old Testament profs I I think a lot of Old Testament profs I I think a lot of Old Testament profs would fail John would fail John would fail John at that move and I think that's wrong. I at that move and I think that's wrong. I at that move and I think that's wrong. I think John is is hitting the the nail on think John is is hitting the the nail on think John is is hitting the the nail on the head, but it's pretty amazing what the head, but it's pretty amazing what the head, but it's pretty amazing what he's doing. he's doing. he's doing. >> I almost failed my Hebrew Bible class in >> I almost failed my Hebrew Bible class in >> I almost failed my Hebrew Bible class in undergrad. undergrad. undergrad. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Almost I have the midterm over here >> Almost I have the midterm over here >> Almost I have the midterm over here right in my cabinet. I think I got a D- right in my cabinet. I think I got a D- right in my cabinet. I think I got a D- minus or something like that. minus or something like that. minus or something like that. Part of it was the fact that I did not Part of it was the fact that I did not Part of it was the fact that I did not study well and it up with an okay grade study well and it up with an okay grade study well and it up with an okay grade because I aced the final. because I aced the final. because I aced the final. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Oh, good. >> Oh, good. >> Oh, good. >> The midterm was was real bad. >> The midterm was was real bad. >> The midterm was was real bad. I turned I turned it completely around, I turned I turned it completely around, I turned I turned it completely around, but I'll never forget the discussion but I'll never forget the discussion but I'll never forget the discussion group with the TA group with the TA group with the TA when we were talking about the the uh when we were talking about the the uh when we were talking about the the uh Genesis 1 to 3 Genesis 1 to 3 Genesis 1 to 3 and I mentioned the Trinity and I mentioned the Trinity and I mentioned the Trinity as a possible explanation [laughter] as a possible explanation [laughter] as a possible explanation [laughter] for the pronouns.

for the pronouns. for the pronouns. >> And he went nuts. >> And he went nuts. >> And he went nuts. >> She She never Well, she had never heard >> She She never Well, she had never heard >> She She never Well, she had never heard of such a thing before. It was not I of such a thing before. It was not I of such a thing before. It was not I mean, actually, I caught her completely mean, actually, I caught her completely mean, actually, I caught her completely off guard. off guard. off guard. She She wasn't angry. She was just um She She wasn't angry. She was just um She She wasn't angry. She was just um well, well, well, uh uh uh it uh it uh it uh just like, I'm I guess maybe that's just like, I'm I guess maybe that's just like, I'm I guess maybe that's possible. And And understand, I'm not possible. And And understand, I'm not possible. And And understand, I'm not trying to overread that stuff as if it's trying to overread that stuff as if it's trying to overread that stuff as if it's a like a real a simple little thing. a like a real a simple little thing. a like a real a simple little thing. That's not not the point that I'm trying That's not not the point that I'm trying That's not not the point that I'm trying to make here. It's somewhat somewhat to make here. It's somewhat somewhat to make here. It's somewhat somewhat similar to the um the Yahweh name and similar to the um the Yahweh name and similar to the um the Yahweh name and the I ams in there. The same problem. the I ams in there. The same problem. the I ams in there. The same problem. Where the Old Testament folks are often Where the Old Testament folks are often Where the Old Testament folks are often really negative about that. really negative about that. really negative about that. Right? Right? Right? They're like, there's We we have They're like, there's We we have They're like, there's We we have >> Colin, we have text after text >> Colin, we have text after text >> Colin, we have text after text that reads those creation texts and they that reads those creation texts and they that reads those creation texts and they put Jesus right there. put Jesus right there. put Jesus right there. And And it's not just like one or two And And it's not just like one or two And And it's not just like one or two texts. It's all over the place. texts. It's all over the place. texts. It's all over the place. >> Hebrews You really have >> Hebrews You really have >> Hebrews You really have >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Hebrews does it. I just showed you John >> Hebrews does it. I just showed you John >> Hebrews does it. I just showed you John 1 or John 1. Revelation does it. Paul 1 or John 1. Revelation does it. Paul 1 or John 1. Revelation does it. Paul does it in Colossians. does it in Colossians. does it in Colossians. This is baked into the fabric of how the This is baked into the fabric of how the This is baked into the fabric of how the New Testament authors are reading the New Testament authors are reading the New Testament authors are reading the Old Testament. And if you don't like Old Testament. And if you don't like Old Testament. And if you don't like that, I'm like, look, I I understand that, I'm like, look, I I understand that, I'm like, look, I I understand what you're trying to do, but just know what you're trying to do, but just know what you're trying to do, but just know that the apostles did not read it like that the apostles did not read it like that the apostles did not read it like that. And I'm going to go with them 10 that. And I'm going to go with them 10 that. And I'm going to go with them 10 out of 10 times. out of 10 times. out of 10 times. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, just to just to give an example Well, just to just to give an example Well, just to just to give an example here from from Hebrews. I'm going to here from from Hebrews. I'm going to here from from Hebrews. I'm going to pull here from the the CSB. pull here from the the CSB. pull here from the the CSB. The son is the radiance of God's glory The son is the radiance of God's glory The son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact expression of his nature, and the exact expression of his nature, and the exact expression of his nature, sustaining all things by his powerful sustaining all things by his powerful sustaining all things by his powerful word. Is that not intended to be read into Is that not intended to be read into John 1 as well or part of the crystal John 1 as well or part of the crystal John 1 as well or part of the crystal logical milieu? logical milieu? logical milieu? >> Part of it's got to be. >> Part of it's got to be. >> Part of it's got to be. >> I mean, again here, no surprise. One of >> I mean, again here, no surprise. One of >> I mean, again here, no surprise. One of the the the one of the courses that one of the courses that one of the courses that there were some really famous courses there were some really famous courses there were some really famous courses that Don Carson taught over the years at that Don Carson taught over the years at that Don Carson taught over the years at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I've mentioned Acts in the Pauline I've mentioned Acts in the Pauline I've mentioned Acts in the Pauline Epistles. Epistles. Epistles. One that was available all the way for One that was available all the way for One that was available all the way for PhD students with the New Testament use PhD students with the New Testament use PhD students with the New Testament use of the Old Testament, which would be of the Old Testament, which would be of the Old Testament, which would be something he collaborated on also with something he collaborated on also with something he collaborated on also with G.K. Beale. And then third would be his G.K. Beale. And then third would be his G.K. Beale. And then third would be his course on Hebrews. course on Hebrews. course on Hebrews. It's no surprise because Hebrews is It's no surprise because Hebrews is It's no surprise because Hebrews is is so immersed is so immersed is so immersed in all these allusions as well. in all these allusions as well. in all these allusions as well. >> Mhm. That's right. >> Mhm. That's right. >> Mhm. That's right. >> Um both explicitly and and otherwise. >> Um both explicitly and and otherwise. >> Um both explicitly and and otherwise. Um let's let's talk about how the Um let's let's talk about how the Um let's let's talk about how the apostles read the Old Testament. And apostles read the Old Testament. And apostles read the Old Testament. And I've been mentioning here, you've got I've been mentioning here, you've got I've been mentioning here, you've got Hebrews, you've got John, you've got Hebrews, you've got John, you've got Hebrews, you've got John, you've got Paul. Just referred to several of them. Paul. Just referred to several of them. Paul. Just referred to several of them. Um do they read the Old Testament the Um do they read the Old Testament the Um do they read the Old Testament the same way as each other? same way as each other? same way as each other? Um and here's an example here. Most Um and here's an example here. Most Um and here's an example here. Most readers assume that the apostles only readers assume that the apostles only readers assume that the apostles only read the Old Testament in a promise read the Old Testament in a promise read the Old Testament in a promise fulfillment fulfillment fulfillment manner. manner. manner. So talk about how the apostles approach So talk about how the apostles approach So talk about how the apostles approach the Old Testament. Both what's in the Old Testament. Both what's in the Old Testament. Both what's in common, maybe any differences?

common, maybe any differences? common, maybe any differences? >> Yeah, so that's a huge question. I mean, >> Yeah, so that's a huge question. I mean, >> Yeah, so that's a huge question. I mean, you really have to go back. Right? So you really have to go back. Right? So you really have to go back. Right? So you'd have to compare them. You'd have you'd have to compare them. You'd have you'd have to compare them. You'd have to study all those allusions that he and to study all those allusions that he and to study all those allusions that he and you have to compare and contrast. you have to compare and contrast. you have to compare and contrast. Broadly speaking, they they are in Broadly speaking, they they are in Broadly speaking, they they are in general sync with one another. They love general sync with one another. They love general sync with one another. They love to and they they take the Old Testament to and they they take the Old Testament to and they they take the Old Testament and they're going to work it through and they're going to work it through and they're going to work it through Jesus, through his life, and then Jesus, through his life, and then Jesus, through his life, and then through Jesus they'll then place it upon through Jesus they'll then place it upon through Jesus they'll then place it upon the church and God's people. So, there's the church and God's people. So, there's the church and God's people. So, there's a ton of continuity between the old and a ton of continuity between the old and a ton of continuity between the old and the new here. So, they they're pretty the new here. So, they they're pretty the new here. So, they they're pretty much all in agreement with how they do much all in agreement with how they do much all in agreement with how they do that. The question is, that. The question is, that. The question is, are they always thinking are they always thinking are they always thinking promise-fulfillment? promise-fulfillment? promise-fulfillment? I I don't have a percentage here. My I I don't have a percentage here. My I I don't have a percentage here. My guess is that guess is that guess is that half the time that half the time it is, half the time that half the time it is, half the time that half the time it is, the other half it's not. They're not the other half it's not. They're not the other half it's not. They're not Most pastors, how about this? Let me Most pastors, how about this? Let me Most pastors, how about this? Let me just approach from this. I think most just approach from this. I think most just approach from this. I think most pastors and seminary students, when they pastors and seminary students, when they pastors and seminary students, when they talk about the old and the new, or when talk about the old and the new, or when talk about the old and the new, or when they think about it, they're always they think about it, they're always they think about it, they're always thinking promise Old Testament, thinking promise Old Testament, thinking promise Old Testament, fulfillment New Testament.

fulfillment New Testament. fulfillment New Testament. Is that a major category? Of course, Is that a major category? Of course, Is that a major category? Of course, it's a major category, but it's not the it's a major category, but it's not the it's a major category, but it's not the only category. only category. only category. There are probably a dozen or so There are probably a dozen or so There are probably a dozen or so different ways that the apostles are different ways that the apostles are different ways that the apostles are reading the Old Testament, and that's reading the Old Testament, and that's reading the Old Testament, and that's maybe two of those 12 categories. So, maybe two of those 12 categories. So, maybe two of those 12 categories. So, the trick here is to think in terms of the trick here is to think in terms of the trick here is to think in terms of Well, if it's not promise-fulfillment, Well, if it's not promise-fulfillment, Well, if it's not promise-fulfillment, well, what is it? Sometimes a New well, what is it? Sometimes a New well, what is it? Sometimes a New Testament author will reach into the Old Testament author will reach into the Old Testament author will reach into the Old Testament and say, "You know what? You Testament and say, "You know what? You Testament and say, "You know what? You need to do what these Old Testament need to do what these Old Testament need to do what these Old Testament authors were doing." So, they get it. authors were doing." So, they get it. authors were doing." So, they get it. They really like ethics. They'll say They really like ethics. They'll say They really like ethics. They'll say like, "Oh, don't be like that bad guy. like, "Oh, don't be like that bad guy. like, "Oh, don't be like that bad guy. Be like this good guy." So, that's just Be like this good guy." So, that's just Be like this good guy." So, that's just an ethical concern. They're not reading an ethical concern. They're not reading an ethical concern. They're not reading it typologically. They're not reading it it typologically. They're not reading it it typologically. They're not reading it promise-fulfillment. They're just promise-fulfillment. They're just promise-fulfillment. They're just saying, "Do what this guy did." saying, "Do what this guy did." saying, "Do what this guy did." So, it's ethics. They They Or Or they Or So, it's ethics. They They Or Or they Or So, it's ethics. They They Or Or they Or they work with the category of analogy. they work with the category of analogy. they work with the category of analogy. Just as God did it like this, so now Just as God did it like this, so now Just as God did it like this, so now he's doing it like this. he's doing it like this. he's doing it like this. There's not promise-fulfillment. We can There's not promise-fulfillment. We can There's not promise-fulfillment. We can see that in the text. It's just this see that in the text. It's just this see that in the text. It's just this happens like that happens.

happens like that happens. happens like that happens. It's just analogy. And that's okay. We It's just analogy. And that's okay. We It's just analogy. And that's okay. We don't have to make everything don't have to make everything don't have to make everything promise-fulfillment. I think especially promise-fulfillment. I think especially promise-fulfillment. I think especially in the Reformed tradition, in the Reformed tradition, in the Reformed tradition, it leans so hard in promise-fulfillment it leans so hard in promise-fulfillment it leans so hard in promise-fulfillment that it can really distort the text, and that it can really distort the text, and that it can really distort the text, and it can create problems for us that we it can create problems for us that we it can create problems for us that we just don't need to create. We already just don't need to create. We already just don't need to create. We already have enough problems. We don't need more have enough problems. We don't need more have enough problems. We don't need more problems. problems. problems. Um Um Um >> Yeah, I mean, you are you mentioned this >> Yeah, I mean, you are you mentioned this >> Yeah, I mean, you are you mentioned this already, but patterns. already, but patterns. already, but patterns. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Patterns of salvation. >> Patterns of salvation. >> Patterns of salvation. >> Lots of patterns. >> Lots of patterns. >> Lots of patterns. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh continuities of God's character. continuities of God's character. continuities of God's character. Uh continuation of his promises. Um now, Uh continuation of his promises. Um now, Uh continuation of his promises. Um now, I mean, yes, that is the promise I mean, yes, that is the promise I mean, yes, that is the promise fulfillment there, but I just mean the fulfillment there, but I just mean the fulfillment there, but I just mean the continuation of his revelation. continuation of his revelation. continuation of his revelation. Of who he is, but then also the Of who he is, but then also the Of who he is, but then also the discontinuities. discontinuities. discontinuities. That's one thing Carson always That's one thing Carson always That's one thing Carson always emphasizes. You know, when from Old emphasizes. You know, when from Old emphasizes. You know, when from Old Testament and New Testament, you're Testament and New Testament, you're Testament and New Testament, you're looking for how is it similar, looking for how is it similar, looking for how is it similar, but there are clear differences. but there are clear differences. but there are clear differences. Um there are changes that happen in Um there are changes that happen in Um there are changes that happen in there as well. there as well. there as well. Um Um Um I wonder, Ben, do we run the risk of I wonder, Ben, do we run the risk of I wonder, Ben, do we run the risk of reading too much into the intent of the reading too much into the intent of the reading too much into the intent of the New Testament writers or even what New Testament writers or even what New Testament writers or even what ultimately what God's intending for that ultimately what God's intending for that ultimately what God's intending for that passage? Another way of asking this passage? Another way of asking this passage? Another way of asking this might be what kind of guardrails do you might be what kind of guardrails do you might be what kind of guardrails do you put on identifying a legitimate put on identifying a legitimate put on identifying a legitimate allusion?

allusion? allusion? >> Yeah, so this is the number one question >> Yeah, so this is the number one question >> Yeah, so this is the number one question I get whenever I talk about the old and I get whenever I talk about the old and I get whenever I talk about the old and the new is people love the saying in the the new is people love the saying in the the new is people love the saying in the South, I love me some allusions. South, I love me some allusions. South, I love me some allusions. But you can get But you can get But you can get but you can really get yourself in but you can really get yourself in but you can really get yourself in trouble when you start poking around. trouble when you start poking around. trouble when you start poking around. You're like, "Ooh, I think I had leaned You're like, "Ooh, I think I had leaned You're like, "Ooh, I think I had leaned too hard." So, there are two I I I do too hard." So, there are two I I I do too hard." So, there are two I I I do two things to keep the guardrails on, to two things to keep the guardrails on, to two things to keep the guardrails on, to keep, you know, try to keep things keep, you know, try to keep things keep, you know, try to keep things objective, try to vindicate, try to objective, try to vindicate, try to objective, try to vindicate, try to show, "No, this is a real connection." show, "No, this is a real connection." show, "No, this is a real connection." And the first thing that I do is And the first thing that I do is And the first thing that I do is let's go back let's go back to Exodus let's go back let's go back to Exodus let's go back let's go back to Exodus 3:5 in Mark 1 3:5 in Mark 1 3:5 in Mark 1 uh about the burning bush. So, the first uh about the burning bush. So, the first uh about the burning bush. So, the first thing that I have to do is I have to thing that I have to do is I have to thing that I have to do is I have to show that is Mark aware of the book of show that is Mark aware of the book of show that is Mark aware of the book of Exodus? Exodus? Exodus? Well, in verse two, just three verses Well, in verse two, just three verses Well, in verse two, just three verses before that allusion about John and his before that allusion about John and his before that allusion about John and his sandals, three verses before that, he sandals, three verses before that, he sandals, three verses before that, he actually quotes the book of Exodus. He actually quotes the book of Exodus. He actually quotes the book of Exodus. He quotes Exodus 23:20. That tells me right quotes Exodus 23:20. That tells me right quotes Exodus 23:20. That tells me right off the bat off the bat off the bat that he is aware of Exodus. And by the that he is aware of Exodus. And by the that he is aware of Exodus. And by the way, commentators missed this.

way, commentators missed this. way, commentators missed this. But later on in Mark's Gospel in chapter But later on in Mark's Gospel in chapter But later on in Mark's Gospel in chapter 12, listen to what Jesus says. He says 12, listen to what Jesus says. He says 12, listen to what Jesus says. He says in 12:26, "As for the dead being raised, in 12:26, "As for the dead being raised, in 12:26, "As for the dead being raised, haven't you read in the book of Moses in haven't you read in the book of Moses in haven't you read in the book of Moses in the passage about the burning bush? the passage about the burning bush? the passage about the burning bush? How God said to him, 'I am the God of How God said to him, 'I am the God of How God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?'" That's Exodus 3:6. of Jacob?'" That's Exodus 3:6. of Jacob?'" That's Exodus 3:6. So, I can show I can demonstrate So, I can show I can demonstrate So, I can show I can demonstrate that Mark is aware of Exodus 3:6 that Mark is aware of Exodus 3:6 that Mark is aware of Exodus 3:6 because he quotes it. Jesus quotes it. because he quotes it. Jesus quotes it. because he quotes it. Jesus quotes it. He even says, "The burning bush." So, He even says, "The burning bush." So, He even says, "The burning bush." So, I've said, "Okay, there's there's I've said, "Okay, there's there's I've said, "Okay, there's there's awareness there." awareness there." awareness there." So, then the second thing that I have to So, then the second thing that I have to So, then the second thing that I have to do is I have to show that the allusion do is I have to show that the allusion do is I have to show that the allusion makes sense. Like you makes sense. Like you makes sense. Like you you can't you can't you can't if an allusion is there, well, it's if an allusion is there, well, it's if an allusion is there, well, it's there for a reason. It's not the the the there for a reason. It's not the the the there for a reason. It's not the the the Old Testament and the New Testament Old Testament and the New Testament Old Testament and the New Testament passage will match up. Like they will be passage will match up. Like they will be passage will match up. Like they will be in sync. The the themes will resonate in sync. The the themes will resonate in sync. The the themes will resonate very well between the two texts.

very well between the two texts. very well between the two texts. And so there, I think that I can show a And so there, I think that I can show a And so there, I think that I can show a thematic cohesion. thematic cohesion. thematic cohesion. That that they're that they gel That that they're that they gel That that they're that they gel together, that they work together. If together, that they work together. If together, that they work together. If in other words, in other words, in other words, if I'm arguing that Mark is using the if I'm arguing that Mark is using the if I'm arguing that Mark is using the Song of Songs, Song of Songs, Song of Songs, you're like, "Well, does he use Song of you're like, "Well, does he use Song of you're like, "Well, does he use Song of Songs elsewhere?" No, he doesn't. Well, Songs elsewhere?" No, he doesn't. Well, Songs elsewhere?" No, he doesn't. Well, ooh, and then when you try to link up ooh, and then when you try to link up ooh, and then when you try to link up the text, the text, the text, well, they're doing different things. well, they're doing different things. well, they're doing different things. Do you see? So, things just start to Do you see? So, things just start to Do you see? So, things just start to fall apart. You've got to have a you fall apart. You've got to have a you fall apart. You've got to have a you have to show awareness. You have to show have to show awareness. You have to show have to show awareness. You have to show thematic continuity. And if you if you thematic continuity. And if you if you thematic continuity. And if you if you And then the wording has to be unique And then the wording has to be unique And then the wording has to be unique enough. And if you can put all these enough. And if you can put all these enough. And if you can put all these things together, then I think you've got things together, then I think you've got things together, then I think you've got something there. something there. something there. >> I do think some of us have been burned >> I do think some of us have been burned >> I do think some of us have been burned by the cross-references. by the cross-references. by the cross-references. >> 100% with Oh, without a doubt. >> 100% with Oh, without a doubt. >> 100% with Oh, without a doubt. We've been let down. I mean We've been let down. I mean We've been let down. I mean >> back to that Old Testament and saying, >> back to that Old Testament and saying, >> back to that Old Testament and saying, "Wait a minute, I can't make any heads "Wait a minute, I can't make any heads "Wait a minute, I can't make any heads or tails of the connection here. Does or tails of the connection here. Does or tails of the connection here. Does somebody have a cross-reference quota?"

somebody have a cross-reference quota?" somebody have a cross-reference quota?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> We need at least four per verse. >> We need at least four per verse. >> Exactly. I don't know what's >> Exactly. I don't know what's >> Exactly. I don't know what's going on here. going on here. going on here. >> Yeah. You can only cross-reference so >> Yeah. You can only cross-reference so >> Yeah. You can only cross-reference so many times, right? Yeah. many times, right? Yeah. many times, right? Yeah. >> passages mention God. Great. Great. >> And And what's hard too is that >> And And what's hard too is that >> And And what's hard too is that sometimes it takes like 30 seconds to sometimes it takes like 30 seconds to sometimes it takes like 30 seconds to find that Old Testament text as you're find that Old Testament text as you're find that Old Testament text as you're flipping through and by the time you're flipping through and by the time you're flipping through and by the time you're like, "What am I Like, where am I at?" like, "What am I Like, where am I at?" like, "What am I Like, where am I at?" You forget what you're doing and you're You forget what you're doing and you're You forget what you're doing and you're like, "Oh, I'm just going to take a like, "Oh, I'm just going to take a like, "Oh, I'm just going to take a break. I'm going to take a nap. I'm break. I'm going to take a nap. I'm break. I'm going to take a nap. I'm tired." tired." tired." >> That is That is one of the advantages of >> That is That is one of the advantages of >> That is That is one of the advantages of a digital Bible. All the a digital Bible. All the a digital Bible. All the cross-references are easier to find and cross-references are easier to find and cross-references are easier to find and reject. reject. reject. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's That's right. >> That's That's right. >> That's That's right. I don't have time for this. I don't have time for this. I don't have time for this. >> Or or appreciate. Um we're talking here >> Or or appreciate. Um we're talking here >> Or or appreciate. Um we're talking here with with Ben Glad about the CSB with with Ben Glad about the CSB with with Ben Glad about the CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament. Uh Connecting Scripture New Testament. Uh Connecting Scripture New Testament. Uh Ben, does the English Bible translation Ben, does the English Bible translation Ben, does the English Bible translation make a difference in how readers can make a difference in how readers can make a difference in how readers can discern these allusions?

discern these allusions? discern these allusions? You mentioned earlier how quotations are You mentioned earlier how quotations are You mentioned earlier how quotations are handled differently in different handled differently in different handled differently in different different editions and surely that's in different editions and surely that's in different editions and surely that's in translations surely that's the case now translations surely that's the case now translations surely that's the case now and no doubt it's the case over time. and no doubt it's the case over time. and no doubt it's the case over time. But just talking about the allusions, But just talking about the allusions, But just talking about the allusions, does does the English Bible translation does does the English Bible translation does does the English Bible translation make a difference? make a difference? make a difference? >> 100%. The problem here, Colin, is that >> 100%. The problem here, Colin, is that >> 100%. The problem here, Colin, is that when you have a translate when you have when you have a translate when you have when you have a translate when you have a a translation being produced, you have a a translation being produced, you have a a translation being produced, you have different teams. You have an Old different teams. You have an Old different teams. You have an Old Testament team, a New Testament team, a Testament team, a New Testament team, a Testament team, a New Testament team, a Pauline team, a Prophets team and they Pauline team, a Prophets team and they Pauline team, a Prophets team and they work on different portions. Rarely do work on different portions. Rarely do work on different portions. Rarely do these teams work together. these teams work together. these teams work together. The problem is that the wording that's The problem is that the wording that's The problem is that the wording that's found in the Old Testament isn't always found in the Old Testament isn't always found in the Old Testament isn't always represented well in the New Testament. represented well in the New Testament. represented well in the New Testament. So, they're not In other words, the the So, they're not In other words, the the So, they're not In other words, the the the the Bible the translation committees the the Bible the translation committees the the Bible the translation committees are not thinking, "Hey, how can we are not thinking, "Hey, how can we are not thinking, "Hey, how can we preserve this?" Or how can we preserve preserve this?" Or how can we preserve preserve this?" Or how can we preserve this allusion? Or they're just not this allusion? Or they're just not this allusion? Or they're just not thinking like that. And it creates thinking like that. And it creates thinking like that. And it creates you just lose some of these connections you just lose some of these connections you just lose some of these connections right off the bat because they're not right off the bat because they're not right off the bat because they're not trying to preserve them.

trying to preserve them. trying to preserve them. It's a very It's a very tricky It's a very It's a very tricky It's a very It's a very tricky conversation. conversation. conversation. >> That is a huge pet peeve. >> That is a huge pet peeve. >> That is a huge pet peeve. >> It's a huge It's a huge issue. >> It's a huge It's a huge issue. >> It's a huge It's a huge issue. >> Along with the cross-references, it >> Along with the cross-references, it >> Along with the cross-references, it it seems as though we're losing it seems as though we're losing it seems as though we're losing something really significant here. And something really significant here. And something really significant here. And and to be and to be clear, and to be and to be clear, and to be and to be clear, there are a lot of complications here there are a lot of complications here there are a lot of complications here because you're dealing with because you're dealing with because you're dealing with the Old Testament language of mostly the Old Testament language of mostly the Old Testament language of mostly Hebrew, Hebrew, Hebrew, then you're jumping into the New New then you're jumping into the New New then you're jumping into the New New Testament language of Koine Greek. Testament language of Koine Greek. Testament language of Koine Greek. >> Greek. >> Greek. >> Greek. >> Um you also have the Septuagint coming >> Um you also have the Septuagint coming >> Um you also have the Septuagint coming in there, in there, in there, >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> of course, a translation that is >> of course, a translation that is >> of course, a translation that is contemporary to the New Testament, but contemporary to the New Testament, but contemporary to the New Testament, but is a translation of the Old Testament. is a translation of the Old Testament. is a translation of the Old Testament. And sometimes what the New Testament And sometimes what the New Testament And sometimes what the New Testament writer is quoting or alluding to is writer is quoting or alluding to is writer is quoting or alluding to is >> the Septuagint. >> the Septuagint. >> the Septuagint. >> Not the not the not the uh Hebrew. >> Not the not the not the uh Hebrew. >> Not the not the not the uh Hebrew. >> itself then a translation, but also, as >> itself then a translation, but also, as >> itself then a translation, but also, as every translation is by necessity, it is every translation is by necessity, it is every translation is by necessity, it is an interpretation. an interpretation. an interpretation. So, um a reliable one in many ways, but So, um a reliable one in many ways, but So, um a reliable one in many ways, but that's one of the challenges when that's one of the challenges when that's one of the challenges when when when when try to jump back with these allusions try to jump back with these allusions try to jump back with these allusions and these quotations as you can be able and these quotations as you can be able and these quotations as you can be able to check that. And that jump between to check that. And that jump between to check that. And that jump between Hebrew to Greek in the Septuagint and Hebrew to Greek in the Septuagint and Hebrew to Greek in the Septuagint and then from there to the New Testament is then from there to the New Testament is then from there to the New Testament is actually very helpful in interpretation actually very helpful in interpretation actually very helpful in interpretation for us because we can see what other for us because we can see what other for us because we can see what other people have been thinking ahead of us people have been thinking ahead of us people have been thinking ahead of us there.

there. there. But one of the biggest problems I have But one of the biggest problems I have But one of the biggest problems I have then is when then is when then is when I see something that's in the Old I see something that's in the Old I see something that's in the Old Testament and I know what it's Testament and I know what it's Testament and I know what it's referencing in Hebrew, referencing in Hebrew, referencing in Hebrew, and then I know what the concept is and then I know what the concept is and then I know what the concept is carried over into the New Testament. carried over into the New Testament. carried over into the New Testament. And they're not going to be perfect And they're not going to be perfect And they're not going to be perfect overlaps because that's the challenge of overlaps because that's the challenge of overlaps because that's the challenge of semantic ranges of languages. semantic ranges of languages. semantic ranges of languages. But I know that they're clearly linked. But I know that they're clearly linked. But I know that they're clearly linked. And yet the translator uses two And yet the translator uses two And yet the translator uses two different different different >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> English words. >> English words. >> English words. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Or phrases or idioms to be able to refer >> Or phrases or idioms to be able to refer >> Or phrases or idioms to be able to refer to them. to them. to them. In which case the average reader simply In which case the average reader simply In which case the average reader simply throws up their they wouldn't even throws up their they wouldn't even throws up their they wouldn't even notice notice notice that there's a connection between the that there's a connection between the that there's a connection between the two. two. two. I assume that's part of the problem I assume that's part of the problem I assume that's part of the problem you're describing here. you're describing here. you're describing here. >> a huge problem. I think >> a huge problem. I think >> a huge problem. I think translations just need to do their best translations just need to do their best translations just need to do their best to realize we're dealing Greek, Hebrew, to realize we're dealing Greek, Hebrew, to realize we're dealing Greek, Hebrew, Septuagint, but we need to do our best. Septuagint, but we need to do our best. Septuagint, but we need to do our best. It will always be imperfect, but I think It will always be imperfect, but I think It will always be imperfect, but I think that the effort needs to be that the effort needs to be that the effort needs to be how can we how can we how can we show continuity as best we can given our show continuity as best we can given our show continuity as best we can given our limitations?

limitations? limitations? How can we show continuity in the answer How can we show continuity in the answer How can we show continuity in the answer would be just try to use the same words would be just try to use the same words would be just try to use the same words when possible. when possible. when possible. Try just make that extra effort right Try just make that extra effort right Try just make that extra effort right there. Try to line up these texts as there. Try to line up these texts as there. Try to line up these texts as best you can best you can best you can even though it's not going to be done even though it's not going to be done even though it's not going to be done perfectly. Just try to do it and it's perfectly. Just try to do it and it's perfectly. Just try to do it and it's going to help the reader so much because going to help the reader so much because going to help the reader so much because honestly when we do this, you feel the honestly when we do this, you feel the honestly when we do this, you feel the rub, I feel the rub. It rub, I feel the rub. It rub, I feel the rub. It it's very disconcerting. it's very disconcerting. it's very disconcerting. Because I'm like, no, this text is in Because I'm like, no, this text is in Because I'm like, no, this text is in mind in that Old Testament translation, mind in that Old Testament translation, mind in that Old Testament translation, you would never know in a million years you would never know in a million years you would never know in a million years that these texts were were connected and that these texts were were connected and that these texts were were connected and they really are. they really are. they really are. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There are a couple other factors that There are a couple other factors that There are a couple other factors that are involved for people to understand are involved for people to understand are involved for people to understand when if of the the frustration here, I'm when if of the the frustration here, I'm when if of the the frustration here, I'm trying to give the other side of the of trying to give the other side of the of trying to give the other side of the of the of the debate here. the of the debate here. the of the debate here. The English translators are also trying The English translators are also trying The English translators are also trying to focus on readability. to focus on readability. to focus on readability. So that trying to have something that is So that trying to have something that is So that trying to have something that is comprehensible in in modern contemporary comprehensible in in modern contemporary comprehensible in in modern contemporary English language.

English language. English language. They're also depending on the addition, They're also depending on the addition, They're also depending on the addition, they're trying to represent continuity they're trying to represent continuity they're trying to represent continuity with earlier English translations as with earlier English translations as with earlier English translations as well. So, that every time a new well. So, that every time a new well. So, that every time a new translation doesn't come out, you're not translation doesn't come out, you're not translation doesn't come out, you're not having to feel as though this is a having to feel as though this is a having to feel as though this is a foreign, you know, new new product or a foreign, you know, new new product or a foreign, you know, new new product or a new resource. They're the um new resource. They're the um new resource. They're the um my pastor was complaining um the other my pastor was complaining um the other my pastor was complaining um the other day and and we don't do this very often day and and we don't do this very often day and and we don't do this very often it's dangerous to complain too much it's dangerous to complain too much it's dangerous to complain too much about English translations because we about English translations because we about English translations because we are blessed with a lot of really good are blessed with a lot of really good are blessed with a lot of really good English translations. English translations. English translations. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> Um so, in in the work of our friends and >> Um so, in in the work of our friends and >> Um so, in in the work of our friends and colleagues who have done this now and colleagues who have done this now and colleagues who have done this now and and in the past is is really remarkable. and in the past is is really remarkable. and in the past is is really remarkable. But, he was complaining about something But, he was complaining about something But, he was complaining about something that he felt was pretty obviously that he felt was pretty obviously that he felt was pretty obviously mistranslated. So, we went and looked up mistranslated. So, we went and looked up mistranslated. So, we went and looked up and they said, "Well, the reason we and they said, "Well, the reason we and they said, "Well, the reason we translated this way is because this is translated this way is because this is translated this way is because this is the way it was translated earlier. the way it was translated earlier. the way it was translated earlier. And we're trying to represent continuity And we're trying to represent continuity And we're trying to represent continuity with the way that people hear it from with the way that people hear it from with the way that people hear it from earlier editions of the Bible. Now, earlier editions of the Bible. Now, earlier editions of the Bible. Now, again, not every translation has that again, not every translation has that again, not every translation has that policy, policy, policy, but that's how you can end up in a but that's how you can end up in a but that's how you can end up in a situation where something like Psalm 23 situation where something like Psalm 23 situation where something like Psalm 23 can can can I mean, you you focus on readability I mean, you you focus on readability I mean, you you focus on readability versus continuity with other English versus continuity with other English versus continuity with other English translations that are more familiar as translations that are more familiar as translations that are more familiar as as common cultural idioms and certainly as common cultural idioms and certainly as common cultural idioms and certainly within the church, you're balancing a within the church, you're balancing a within the church, you're balancing a lot of considerations at the same time.

lot of considerations at the same time. lot of considerations at the same time. So, that can be one So, that can be one So, that can be one >> Thank you for clearing that up for us. >> Thank you for clearing that up for us. >> Thank you for clearing that up for us. >> I I wonder I have not been part of a >> I I wonder I have not been part of a >> I I wonder I have not been part of a translation committee. I don't know if translation committee. I don't know if translation committee. I don't know if that's a desire. It's not really a that's a desire. It's not really a that's a desire. It's not really a desire of mine. Just seems like a lot of desire of mine. Just seems like a lot of desire of mine. Just seems like a lot of work. work. work. Um Um Um it it it but I suspect that these committees are but I suspect that these committees are but I suspect that these committees are not thinking, "How can we align the Old not thinking, "How can we align the Old not thinking, "How can we align the Old Testament with the New Testament Testament with the New Testament Testament with the New Testament thinking in terms of allusions and thinking in terms of allusions and thinking in terms of allusions and quotations?" I don't think that's I quotations?" I don't think that's I quotations?" I don't think that's I don't think that's on their mind. I don't think that's on their mind. I don't think that's on their mind. I don't think that's on their radar. don't think that's on their radar. don't think that's on their radar. And because of that, I think we have And because of that, I think we have And because of that, I think we have some disjointed text at times, some disjointed text at times, some disjointed text at times, unfortunately. unfortunately. unfortunately. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, we're just talking about the I mean, we're just talking about the I mean, we're just talking about the need here for the resource. need here for the resource. need here for the resource. >> I think there's a huge need here. I >> I think there's a huge need here. I >> I think there's a huge need here. I think there's a huge think there's a huge think there's a huge need. need. need. >> represented visually the way that you >> represented visually the way that you >> represented visually the way that you do. Um okay, let's get practical for do. Um okay, let's get practical for do. Um okay, let's get practical for pastors here. How can they use this pastors here. How can they use this pastors here. How can they use this study Bible in preparing to preach and study Bible in preparing to preach and study Bible in preparing to preach and teach? teach? teach? >> If I'm a pastor and I know Greek and >> If I'm a pastor and I know Greek and >> If I'm a pastor and I know Greek and Hebrew, I'm going to translate. Hebrew, I'm going to translate. Hebrew, I'm going to translate. Then after you get your translation, if Then after you get your translation, if Then after you get your translation, if you don't know Greek and Hebrew, just you don't know Greek and Hebrew, just you don't know Greek and Hebrew, just you know, get your English translation, you know, get your English translation, you know, get your English translation, go line by line. I you know, just write go line by line. I you know, just write go line by line. I you know, just write it out. Just man, just read just write it out. Just man, just read just write it out. Just man, just read just write the Bible. Just you know, do that a the Bible. Just you know, do that a the Bible. Just you know, do that a couple times, get it in your brain.

couple times, get it in your brain. couple times, get it in your brain. And then immediately, I'm always got I'm And then immediately, I'm always got I'm And then immediately, I'm always got I'm always asking the question, how is my always asking the question, how is my always asking the question, how is my text related to the Old Testament? So if text related to the Old Testament? So if text related to the Old Testament? So if I'm New Testament, I'm immediately I'm New Testament, I'm immediately I'm New Testament, I'm immediately thinking, how does this go back? If I'm thinking, how does this go back? If I'm thinking, how does this go back? If I'm Old Testament, you have to think, how is Old Testament, you have to think, how is Old Testament, you have to think, how is my text going forward? my text going forward? my text going forward? Sometimes, these are easy answers. Like, Sometimes, these are easy answers. Like, Sometimes, these are easy answers. Like, oh, well, it tells me how it's doing. oh, well, it tells me how it's doing. oh, well, it tells me how it's doing. Other times, it's like, wow, I have no Other times, it's like, wow, I have no Other times, it's like, wow, I have no clue. But you've got to ask that clue. But you've got to ask that clue. But you've got to ask that question. So, and so if you're using question. So, and so if you're using question. So, and so if you're using Connecting Scripture, we show you use we Connecting Scripture, we show you use we Connecting Scripture, we show you use we use green words or blue words, depending use green words or blue words, depending use green words or blue words, depending on what it is. We're making those on what it is. We're making those on what it is. We're making those connections for you. Just chase it down. connections for you. Just chase it down. connections for you. Just chase it down. Just Just Just just look up the words. One of the just look up the words. One of the just look up the words. One of the things that I tell my students now with things that I tell my students now with things that I tell my students now with Connecting Scripture Connecting Scripture Connecting Scripture is if you're looking at a is if you're looking at a is if you're looking at a a chapter, write out just have a a chapter, write out just have a a chapter, write out just have a in your notes, just write out all the in your notes, just write out all the in your notes, just write out all the Old Testament allusions. And you will be Old Testament allusions. And you will be Old Testament allusions. And you will be shocked at the patterns what New shocked at the patterns what New shocked at the patterns what New Testament authors like to do. They like Testament authors like to do. They like Testament authors like to do. They like to keep going back to keep going back to keep going back to that same book. So whether it's ooh, to that same book. So whether it's ooh, to that same book. So whether it's ooh, Exodus 3 or Exodus 20 or Exodus 15, Exodus 3 or Exodus 20 or Exodus 15, Exodus 3 or Exodus 20 or Exodus 15, you'll see like, wait a minute. There's you'll see like, wait a minute. There's you'll see like, wait a minute. There's going something's going on here with the going something's going on here with the going something's going on here with the book of Exodus. That means you got to go book of Exodus. That means you got to go book of Exodus. That means you got to go back to the book of Exodus. You need to back to the book of Exodus. You need to back to the book of Exodus. You need to reread that section and think about why reread that section and think about why reread that section and think about why that author keeps bringing in Exodus.

that author keeps bringing in Exodus. that author keeps bringing in Exodus. So, these really interesting big kind of So, these really interesting big kind of So, these really interesting big kind of questions struggle with that. Just questions struggle with that. Just questions struggle with that. Just you're not going to figure it all out, you're not going to figure it all out, you're not going to figure it all out, but that's okay. Just think about it. but that's okay. Just think about it. but that's okay. Just think about it. >> Can I tell me if I'm on the right track >> Can I tell me if I'm on the right track >> Can I tell me if I'm on the right track here cuz I want to make a case and here cuz I want to make a case and here cuz I want to make a case and appeal to pastors who are watching and appeal to pastors who are watching and appeal to pastors who are watching and listening listening listening or even reading the transcript here or even reading the transcript here or even reading the transcript here to use the Old Testament more often for to use the Old Testament more often for to use the Old Testament more often for your illustrations. your illustrations. your illustrations. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um I I I the personal illustrations are I I I the personal illustrations are I I I the personal illustrations are great, the contemporary illustrations great, the contemporary illustrations great, the contemporary illustrations are great, the are great, the are great, the the you know, popular funny story the you know, popular funny story the you know, popular funny story illustrations are great. A lot of these illustrations are great. A lot of these illustrations are great. A lot of these can be great. can be great. can be great. The Old Testament is full The Old Testament is full The Old Testament is full of illustrations. of illustrations. of illustrations. >> And they're not boring. >> And they're not boring. >> And they're not boring. >> And they're not boring at all. >> And they're not boring at all. >> And they're not boring at all. >> And you're in the grain of the New >> And you're in the grain of the New >> And you're in the grain of the New Testament writers who are of course Testament writers who are of course Testament writers who are of course always pointing backward, using those always pointing backward, using those always pointing backward, using those illustrations in all sorts of and illustrations in all sorts of and illustrations in all sorts of and allusions and and quotations all of all allusions and and quotations all of all allusions and and quotations all of all of the above.

of the above. of the above. So, let's follow their their pattern. I So, let's follow their their pattern. I So, let's follow their their pattern. I think think think you will not bore people. you will not bore people. you will not bore people. You will help people to understand the You will help people to understand the You will help people to understand the Old Testament, which is lacking um Old Testament, which is lacking um Old Testament, which is lacking um across the board almost. And in the across the board almost. And in the across the board almost. And in the process, you'll also be showing how the process, you'll also be showing how the process, you'll also be showing how the story of the Bible fits together. story of the Bible fits together. story of the Bible fits together. >> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Am I am I on the right >> Am I am I on the right >> Am I am I on the right >> It's safe. >> It's safe. >> It's safe. >> So, there are lots of books that have >> So, there are lots of books that have >> So, there are lots of books that have like these funny illustrations. One is like these funny illustrations. One is like these funny illustrations. One is have you ever heard of a book called have you ever heard of a book called have you ever heard of a book called like Bad Boys of the Bible? Did you know like Bad Boys of the Bible? Did you know like Bad Boys of the Bible? Did you know this there's like a Bad Boys of the this there's like a Bad Boys of the this there's like a Bad Boys of the Bible. There's a Bad Girls of the Bible. Bible. There's a Bad Girls of the Bible. Bible. There's a Bad Girls of the Bible. I'm like, I don't know if that should be I'm like, I don't know if that should be I'm like, I don't know if that should be made. made. made. But they have it's funny because it's But they have it's funny because it's But they have it's funny because it's they have these stories they they just they have these stories they they just they have these stories they they just work through. They they catalog all work through. They they catalog all work through. They they catalog all these crazy stories. And And like, those these crazy stories. And And like, those these crazy stories. And And like, those there's something interesting there. there's something interesting there. there's something interesting there. There's something there that it it it There's something there that it it it There's something there that it it it jams the Bible in people's minds so that jams the Bible in people's minds so that jams the Bible in people's minds so that you're right. It's with the grain. It's you're right. It's with the grain. It's you're right. It's with the grain. It's these are really important stories. these are really important stories. these are really important stories. >> It's human nature and how God relates to >> It's human nature and how God relates to >> It's human nature and how God relates to us us us and how he reveals himself to be.

and how he reveals himself to be. and how he reveals himself to be. That seems pretty relevant. And it's That seems pretty relevant. And it's That seems pretty relevant. And it's inspired. inspired. inspired. >> oh by the way. >> oh by the way. >> oh by the way. >> And there's that. There's that. >> And there's that. There's that. >> And there's that. There's that. >> Can't say that about the rest of the >> Can't say that about the rest of the >> Can't say that about the rest of the literature. literature. literature. >> [laughter] >> Much to many of our >> Much to many of our of our regret as preachers. of our regret as preachers. of our regret as preachers. The especially [laughter] the The especially [laughter] the The especially [laughter] the illustrations that just come to us in illustrations that just come to us in illustrations that just come to us in the moment. This happened to me. I made the moment. This happened to me. I made the moment. This happened to me. I made the mistake at a recent conference. I'm the mistake at a recent conference. I'm the mistake at a recent conference. I'm I'm teaching and I decide I've got a I'm teaching and I decide I've got a I'm teaching and I decide I've got a great Star Wars illustration here. great Star Wars illustration here. great Star Wars illustration here. And I'm not even a huge Star Wars fan. And I'm not even a huge Star Wars fan. And I'm not even a huge Star Wars fan. So I go and I share it. And afterward a So I go and I share it. And afterward a So I go and I share it. And afterward a guy comes up to me and he says, "I need guy comes up to me and he says, "I need guy comes up to me and he says, "I need to correct you." to correct you." to correct you." And you know, as every preacher and And you know, as every preacher and And you know, as every preacher and teacher says, my heart starts to sink. teacher says, my heart starts to sink. teacher says, my heart starts to sink. I'm like, "Oh, what heretical thing did I'm like, "Oh, what heretical thing did I'm like, "Oh, what heretical thing did I say?" He's like, I say?" He's like, I say?" He's like, "You were totally wrong. You confused "You were totally wrong. You confused "You were totally wrong. You confused [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] something that Luke Skywalker did with something that Luke Skywalker did with something that Luke Skywalker did with something that Han Solo did." He said, something that Han Solo did." He said, something that Han Solo did." He said, "At least you admitted ahead of time "At least you admitted ahead of time "At least you admitted ahead of time that you didn't know what you were that you didn't know what you were that you didn't know what you were talking about. talking about. talking about. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> At least you did that. There's nothing >> At least you did that. There's nothing >> At least you did that. There's nothing worse than like getting halfway into an worse than like getting halfway into an worse than like getting halfway into an illustration as you're speaking you're illustration as you're speaking you're illustration as you're speaking you're like, like, like, "What am I doing? This is not going "What am I doing? This is not going "What am I doing? This is not going well. This [laughter] well. This [laughter] well. This [laughter] This is not going to go well. Why am I This is not going to go well. Why am I This is not going to go well. Why am I here? I've got to go to the bathroom."

here? I've got to go to the bathroom." here? I've got to go to the bathroom." >> through like there was Every pastor >> through like there was Every pastor >> through like there was Every pastor thinks that. thinks that. thinks that. >> That happened in the same in the same >> That happened in the same in the same >> That happened in the same in the same talk. I knew I shouldn't do this. I was talk. I knew I shouldn't do this. I was talk. I knew I shouldn't do this. I was trying to explain a movie. trying to explain a movie. trying to explain a movie. It just never works to talk through the It just never works to talk through the It just never works to talk through the plot points of the plot points of the plot points of the >> works. >> works. >> works. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It's like, "This is a great >> It's like, "This is a great >> It's like, "This is a great illustration. Trust me, you just have to illustration. Trust me, you just have to illustration. Trust me, you just have to bear with me for 5 minutes while I bear with me for 5 minutes while I bear with me for 5 minutes while I explain all these characters you don't explain all these characters you don't explain all these characters you don't know anything about." know anything about." know anything about." >> Knives Out. I'm going to give you Knives >> Knives Out. I'm going to give you Knives >> Knives Out. I'm going to give you Knives Out in 5 minutes. Out in 5 minutes. Out in 5 minutes. >> That's what I did. Knives Out. That's >> That's what I did. Knives Out. That's >> That's what I did. Knives Out. That's what I did. It was one of the worst what I did. It was one of the worst what I did. It was one of the worst decisions of my teaching life. decisions of my teaching life. decisions of my teaching life. >> Because that's so complicated. >> Because that's so complicated. >> Because that's so complicated. >> I did Star Wars on the fly and also did >> I did Star Wars on the fly and also did >> I did Star Wars on the fly and also did Knives Out in the same talk. Knives Out in the same talk. Knives Out in the same talk. >> I was just I was just joking. Who would >> I was just I was just joking. Who would >> I was just I was just joking. Who would do Knives Out? do Knives Out? do Knives Out? >> [laughter] >> They will never invite me back. >> They will never invite me back. I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. >> Yeah, you should have did you should >> Yeah, you should have did you should >> Yeah, you should have did you should have done bad news of the Bible, bad have done bad news of the Bible, bad have done bad news of the Bible, bad guys in the Bible, I'm telling you. guys in the Bible, I'm telling you. guys in the Bible, I'm telling you. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It's a lot safer. >> It's a lot safer. >> It's a lot safer. >> That'll be our next collaboration, Ben.

>> That'll be our next collaboration, Ben. >> That'll be our next collaboration, Ben. Uh speaking of collaborations, Uh speaking of collaborations, Uh speaking of collaborations, uh we're talking about CSB Connecting uh we're talking about CSB Connecting uh we're talking about CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, Scripture New Testament, Scripture New Testament, uh GK Beale with Benjamin Gladd. uh GK Beale with Benjamin Gladd. uh GK Beale with Benjamin Gladd. The Carson Center has this year a major The Carson Center has this year a major The Carson Center has this year a major major project we're very excited about, major project we're very excited about, major project we're very excited about, the Concise Bible Commentary. the Concise Bible Commentary. the Concise Bible Commentary. Could you tell us a little bit about Could you tell us a little bit about Could you tell us a little bit about what people can expect from this really what people can expect from this really what people can expect from this really major work from the Carson Center? major work from the Carson Center? major work from the Carson Center? >> Yeah, so it's 1 million words, Collins. >> Yeah, so it's 1 million words, Collins. >> Yeah, so it's 1 million words, Collins. I mean, you I mean, you I mean, you I mean, just think there are there are 1 I mean, just think there are there are 1 I mean, just think there are there are 1 million words out there that TGC put million words out there that TGC put million words out there that TGC put together together together that goes from it's a commentary Genesis that goes from it's a commentary Genesis that goes from it's a commentary Genesis to Revelation. The best thing is is that to Revelation. The best thing is is that to Revelation. The best thing is is that it's evangelical, it's broadly reformed, it's evangelical, it's broadly reformed, it's evangelical, it's broadly reformed, it's very good, it's biblical it's very good, it's biblical it's very good, it's biblical theological, theological, theological, it's all the things that TGC is known it's all the things that TGC is known it's all the things that TGC is known for, all the things that Tim Keller and for, all the things that Tim Keller and for, all the things that Tim Keller and Don Carson love about the Bible. And Don Carson love about the Bible. And Don Carson love about the Bible. And it's distilled into one volume. So, it's distilled into one volume. So, it's distilled into one volume. So, right now, you can access it. In fact, right now, you can access it. In fact, right now, you can access it. In fact, we have millions of people have already we have millions of people have already we have millions of people have already read it online at the Carson Center.

read it online at the Carson Center. read it online at the Carson Center. It's Genesis all the way through It's Genesis all the way through It's Genesis all the way through Revelation. Revelation. Revelation. And Crossway took that manuscript, they And Crossway took that manuscript, they And Crossway took that manuscript, they cleaned it up, they um cleaned it up, they um cleaned it up, they um you know, just they they turned it into you know, just they they turned it into you know, just they they turned it into a book and it's going to come out in the a book and it's going to come out in the a book and it's going to come out in the fall late fall of '26. You and I have fall late fall of '26. You and I have fall late fall of '26. You and I have seen some uh covers. Looks really, seen some uh covers. Looks really, seen some uh covers. Looks really, really good. It's going to be a one really good. It's going to be a one really good. It's going to be a one volume thing. volume thing. volume thing. And it is it's we are very, very proud And it is it's we are very, very proud And it is it's we are very, very proud of it. I was not a part of TGC from the of it. I was not a part of TGC from the of it. I was not a part of TGC from the beginning for this it's I'm sort of beginning for this it's I'm sort of beginning for this it's I'm sort of catching it on the back end. I just catching it on the back end. I just catching it on the back end. I just trying to shepherd it through that whole trying to shepherd it through that whole trying to shepherd it through that whole process. process. process. Um but it is a delight. I'm not quite Um but it is a delight. I'm not quite Um but it is a delight. I'm not quite sure that TGC has done something like sure that TGC has done something like sure that TGC has done something like this before and I can't wait to give it this before and I can't wait to give it this before and I can't wait to give it to people so that they can say look at to people so that they can say look at to people so that they can say look at what by God's grace look at a lot of what by God's grace look at a lot of what by God's grace look at a lot of people worked really, really hard for a people worked really, really hard for a people worked really, really hard for a long time to produce this thing and it long time to produce this thing and it long time to produce this thing and it what a you know, what a grace of God. what a you know, what a grace of God. what a you know, what a grace of God. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Yeah, a lot of people to to thank about >> Yeah, a lot of people to to thank about >> Yeah, a lot of people to to thank about this. A lot of people to shout out. We this. A lot of people to shout out. We this. A lot of people to shout out. We think about our our long-time colleague think about our our long-time colleague think about our our long-time colleague Phil Thompson, his work on this. Think Phil Thompson, his work on this. Think Phil Thompson, his work on this. Think about about about our friend at Crossway Doug O'Donnell, our friend at Crossway Doug O'Donnell, our friend at Crossway Doug O'Donnell, not only championing this project, but not only championing this project, but not only championing this project, but also himself editing and writing also himself editing and writing also himself editing and writing >> For this project. That's right.

>> For this project. That's right. >> For this project. That's right. >> Um and then >> Um and then >> Um and then yeah, Don Carson is listed as the yeah, Don Carson is listed as the yeah, Don Carson is listed as the founding editor of this project and founding editor of this project and founding editor of this project and ultimately the original visionary behind ultimately the original visionary behind ultimately the original visionary behind it and what I love about our our it and what I love about our our it and what I love about our our partnerships with Crossway. partnerships with Crossway. partnerships with Crossway. Um and we work with a lot of different Um and we work with a lot of different Um and we work with a lot of different publishers in a lot of different ways. publishers in a lot of different ways. publishers in a lot of different ways. You of course Lifeway B&H here with with You of course Lifeway B&H here with with You of course Lifeway B&H here with with CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, but what I love about our our but what I love about our our but what I love about our our partnership with Crossway is the way partnership with Crossway is the way partnership with Crossway is the way that we work on print and digital uh that we work on print and digital uh that we work on print and digital uh both. both. both. >> Distribution, right? >> Distribution, right? >> Distribution, right? >> Distribution and so it's available for >> Distribution and so it's available for >> Distribution and so it's available for for this the student of mine and her for this the student of mine and her for this the student of mine and her church back in back in Malaysia. This church back in back in Malaysia. This church back in back in Malaysia. This commentary which commentary which commentary which and and and yes, we are we're also working on yes, we are we're also working on yes, we are we're also working on translations of this as well. Do you translations of this as well. Do you translations of this as well. Do you want to mention the translations on this want to mention the translations on this want to mention the translations on this one? one? one? >> Yes, of course. So we've raised money. >> Yes, of course. So we've raised money. >> Yes, of course. So we've raised money. We've raised We've raised We've raised uh a good amount of money for Spanish uh a good amount of money for Spanish uh a good amount of money for Spanish and Arabic translation of this volume. and Arabic translation of this volume. and Arabic translation of this volume. And once those those those the Arabic And once those those those the Arabic And once those those those the Arabic translation, there's an initial one done translation, there's an initial one done translation, there's an initial one done of the Pentateuch.

of the Pentateuch. of the Pentateuch. And once those are completed, those will And once those are completed, those will And once those are completed, those will be uh available online for distribution, be uh available online for distribution, be uh available online for distribution, you know, to the ends of the earth. I you know, to the ends of the earth. I you know, to the ends of the earth. I mean, we're talking this is a mean, we're talking this is a mean, we're talking this is a game-changer. There's nothing like this game-changer. There's nothing like this game-changer. There's nothing like this exists in Spanish and Arabic. exists in Spanish and Arabic. exists in Spanish and Arabic. >> Yeah. I I I don't know that people know >> Yeah. I I I don't know that people know >> Yeah. I I I don't know that people know that. I think we're so awash in that. I think we're so awash in that. I think we're so awash in resources in English in the West, we resources in English in the West, we resources in English in the West, we don't realize what Well, just the don't realize what Well, just the don't realize what Well, just the abundance of riches and grateful for for abundance of riches and grateful for for abundance of riches and grateful for for donors to the Gospel Coalition and to donors to the Gospel Coalition and to donors to the Gospel Coalition and to the Carson Center who have made this the Carson Center who have made this the Carson Center who have made this possible in Spanish in Spanish and possible in Spanish in Spanish and possible in Spanish in Spanish and Arabic. And again, it's been a long Arabic. And again, it's been a long Arabic. And again, it's been a long process. process. process. It's It's not an easy thing to be able It's It's not an easy thing to be able It's It's not an easy thing to be able to pull off any of this stuff. A lot of to pull off any of this stuff. A lot of to pull off any of this stuff. A lot of what we do at the Carson Center is what we do at the Carson Center is what we do at the Carson Center is really slow burn behind the scenes really slow burn behind the scenes really slow burn behind the scenes building out digital databases building out digital databases building out digital databases online, trying to figure out the role of online, trying to figure out the role of online, trying to figure out the role of of artificial intelligence in this. of artificial intelligence in this. of artificial intelligence in this. Getting those Getting those translations Getting those Getting those translations Getting those Getting those translations available, making making folks aware of available, making making folks aware of available, making making folks aware of them, just having a full Bible English them, just having a full Bible English them, just having a full Bible English commentary prepared commentary prepared commentary prepared um for easy access to anybody who's um for easy access to anybody who's um for easy access to anybody who's teaching and studying. And And I think teaching and studying. And And I think teaching and studying. And And I think what I love about this one volume, I what I love about this one volume, I what I love about this one volume, I think a lot of pastors are going to want think a lot of pastors are going to want think a lot of pastors are going to want it on those on their shelves.

it on those on their shelves. it on those on their shelves. Um but I think a lot of Bible study Um but I think a lot of Bible study Um but I think a lot of Bible study leaders and Sunday school teachers, the leaders and Sunday school teachers, the leaders and Sunday school teachers, the the lay people that really make our the lay people that really make our the lay people that really make our churches run, are going to find this churches run, are going to find this churches run, are going to find this helpful as well because I find it to be helpful as well because I find it to be helpful as well because I find it to be pretty broadly accessible. pretty broadly accessible. pretty broadly accessible. It's both scholarly in terms of its of It's both scholarly in terms of its of It's both scholarly in terms of its of its quality, its quality, its quality, but it's also accessible in terms of you but it's also accessible in terms of you but it's also accessible in terms of you can open it up and you can get some of can open it up and you can get some of can open it up and you can get some of that help um that you're looking for to that help um that you're looking for to that help um that you're looking for to understand a passage with the understand a passage with the understand a passage with the perspective that you're sharing here perspective that you're sharing here perspective that you're sharing here about the Connecting Scripture New about the Connecting Scripture New about the Connecting Scripture New Testament. It's going to be Testament. It's going to be Testament. It's going to be intercanonical. It's going to be intercanonical. It's going to be intercanonical. It's going to be reliable um reliable um reliable um and within understanding how the Bible and within understanding how the Bible and within understanding how the Bible fits together as understood in the fits together as understood in the fits together as understood in the reformed tradition. Um reformed tradition. Um reformed tradition. Um want to close with with this this want to close with with this this want to close with with this this question and a personal question. question and a personal question. question and a personal question. I want to know a little bit more about I want to know a little bit more about I want to know a little bit more about your collaboration with Don Carson and your collaboration with Don Carson and your collaboration with Don Carson and then especially Greg Beale who is a then especially Greg Beale who is a then especially Greg Beale who is a collaborator here on the CSB connecting collaborator here on the CSB connecting collaborator here on the CSB connecting scripture New Testament. scripture New Testament. scripture New Testament. When did those relationships and When did those relationships and When did those relationships and collaborations start and maybe what collaborations start and maybe what collaborations start and maybe what stands out to you most about each of stands out to you most about each of stands out to you most about each of those men and learning from them working those men and learning from them working those men and learning from them working with them.

with them. with them. >> Yeah, so I didn't start working with Don >> Yeah, so I didn't start working with Don >> Yeah, so I didn't start working with Don until I did the dictionary project and until I did the dictionary project and until I did the dictionary project and can see it can see it can see it See there Baker gave me a bunch of those See there Baker gave me a bunch of those See there Baker gave me a bunch of those so it weighs like no less than 300 so it weighs like no less than 300 so it weighs like no less than 300 pounds. pounds. pounds. Um [laughter] so Um [laughter] so Um [laughter] so >> You only know that because you've moved >> You only know that because you've moved >> You only know that because you've moved a couple times recently. [laughter] >> My back is still sore. >> My back is still sore. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. >> Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. >> Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. >> Like wait a minute, these books >> Like wait a minute, these books >> Like wait a minute, these books [clears throat] were just in my same [clears throat] were just in my same [clears throat] were just in my same neighborhood like 2 years ago. Why did I neighborhood like 2 years ago. Why did I neighborhood like 2 years ago. Why did I take them up and then bring them take them up and then bring them take them up and then bring them >> back >> back >> back >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Should have just left them at my >> Should have just left them at my >> Should have just left them at my neighbor's house. neighbor's house. neighbor's house. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, so I didn't start I Don and I had >> Yeah, so I didn't start I Don and I had you know, we would you know, we would you know, we would maybe if I saw him at a conference we maybe if I saw him at a conference we maybe if I saw him at a conference we had dinner together just with faculty. I had dinner together just with faculty. I had dinner together just with faculty. I mean you know, just brief but we didn't mean you know, just brief but we didn't mean you know, just brief but we didn't really work together per se until we had really work together per se until we had really work together per se until we had started working on that dictionary started working on that dictionary started working on that dictionary project together. That started like in project together. That started like in project together. That started like in maybe 2016 or something.

maybe 2016 or something. maybe 2016 or something. And we had I mean exchanged no less than And we had I mean exchanged no less than And we had I mean exchanged no less than it's hundreds of emails. I mean it's a it's hundreds of emails. I mean it's a it's hundreds of emails. I mean it's a huge project. It's a million words, 150 huge project. It's a million words, 150 huge project. It's a million words, 150 essays. You know, over 100 contributors. essays. You know, over 100 contributors. essays. You know, over 100 contributors. It's a gigantic thing. It's a gigantic thing. It's a gigantic thing. And so he and I had to work together all And so he and I had to work together all And so he and I had to work together all but all four of us Greg Beale and Andy but all four of us Greg Beale and Andy but all four of us Greg Beale and Andy Naselli, Don and I were all four talking Naselli, Don and I were all four talking Naselli, Don and I were all four talking to each other just throughout the length to each other just throughout the length to each other just throughout the length of that project. So that's when he and I of that project. So that's when he and I of that project. So that's when he and I started working together. started working together. started working together. Um we had a a friendship and then we Um we had a a friendship and then we Um we had a a friendship and then we would see each other. We'd have dinner, would see each other. We'd have dinner, would see each other. We'd have dinner, you know, this kind of thing. And then you know, this kind of thing. And then you know, this kind of thing. And then over time, he was like, "Hey Ben, over time, he was like, "Hey Ben, over time, he was like, "Hey Ben, would you be interested in taking on or would you be interested in taking on or would you be interested in taking on or becoming a co-author or co-editor with becoming a co-author or co-editor with becoming a co-author or co-editor with the new series in uh the new series in uh the new series in uh the new studies in Biblical Theology." the new studies in Biblical Theology." the new studies in Biblical Theology." And that was I mean, I never thought And that was I mean, I never thought And that was I mean, I never thought about that, never aspired to to do that. about that, never aspired to to do that. about that, never aspired to to do that. And I was like, "Oh, this is what a And I was like, "Oh, this is what a And I was like, "Oh, this is what a great what a great thing." And I was I great what a great thing." And I was I great what a great thing." And I was I mean, such an honor. So, I worked with mean, such an honor. So, I worked with mean, such an honor. So, I worked with him in that. And then, the Pillar series him in that. And then, the Pillar series him in that. And then, the Pillar series now. And just over time, just work now. And just over time, just work now. And just over time, just work learning with Don, learning how to I learning with Don, learning how to I learning with Don, learning how to I I that the way he works and edits and I that the way he works and edits and I that the way he works and edits and works with people, I have never seen works with people, I have never seen works with people, I have never seen somebody do that before, not to that somebody do that before, not to that somebody do that before, not to that extent, and not extent, and not extent, and not with his level of insight and care and with his level of insight and care and with his level of insight and care and gentleness and wise way of working.

gentleness and wise way of working. gentleness and wise way of working. People don't People don't realize how People don't People don't realize how People don't People don't realize how much work and much work and much work and >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> care goes into editing a series. Because >> care goes into editing a series. Because >> care goes into editing a series. Because you email somebody, "Hey, let's write you email somebody, "Hey, let's write you email somebody, "Hey, let's write this book." Well, chances are this book." Well, chances are this book." Well, chances are something's going to go wrong. It's something's going to go wrong. It's something's going to go wrong. It's delayed. Things happen. That person you delayed. Things happen. That person you delayed. Things happen. That person you have got to find a substitute now. They have got to find a substitute now. They have got to find a substitute now. They can't pull that off. Or they turned in a can't pull that off. Or they turned in a can't pull that off. Or they turned in a manuscript and you're like, manuscript and you're like, manuscript and you're like, "Yeah, well, half of it's good. The "Yeah, well, half of it's good. The "Yeah, well, half of it's good. The other half isn't good. We've got to other half isn't good. We've got to other half isn't good. We've got to figure this thing out." figure this thing out." figure this thing out." Like, it really is shepherding and just Like, it really is shepherding and just Like, it really is shepherding and just learning how to work with scholars, talk learning how to work with scholars, talk learning how to work with scholars, talk to them, stay on top of things, manage to them, stay on top of things, manage to them, stay on top of things, manage But that's just that. Like, you have to But that's just that. Like, you have to But that's just that. Like, you have to think in terms of what is Don has this think in terms of what is Don has this think in terms of what is Don has this great line. He has all these good lines. great line. He has all these good lines. great line. He has all these good lines. He says, He says, He says, "When it comes to writing and "When it comes to writing and "When it comes to writing and publishing, you've got to think, publishing, you've got to think, publishing, you've got to think, what does the church need? what does the church need? what does the church need? Like, we have only one life here. So, Like, we have only one life here. So, Like, we have only one life here. So, don't spend your life writing things don't spend your life writing things don't spend your life writing things that the church doesn't need. Like, that the church doesn't need. Like, that the church doesn't need. Like, maybe you can do that. But when But when maybe you can do that. But when But when maybe you can do that. But when But when it comes to what we do, I think we need it comes to what we do, I think we need it comes to what we do, I think we need to do things that the the really needs.

to do things that the the really needs. to do things that the the really needs. And then, the second thing is, and here And then, the second thing is, and here And then, the second thing is, and here it is, he goes, it is, he goes, it is, he goes, "Sometimes the church doesn't know what "Sometimes the church doesn't know what "Sometimes the church doesn't know what she needs." she needs." she needs." Like sometimes the church tells you, Like sometimes the church tells you, Like sometimes the church tells you, "Give us this." And so the Carson Center "Give us this." And so the Carson Center "Give us this." And so the Carson Center says, "You know what? We've got to do says, "You know what? We've got to do says, "You know what? We've got to do that. We need to do a a a one-volume that. We need to do a a a one-volume that. We need to do a a a one-volume commentary. You're We hear you loud and commentary. You're We hear you loud and commentary. You're We hear you loud and clear." And then sometimes the church clear." And then sometimes the church clear." And then sometimes the church has a need, has a need, has a need, but she doesn't tell us that. You kind but she doesn't tell us that. You kind but she doesn't tell us that. You kind of have to just be prophetic and read of have to just be prophetic and read of have to just be prophetic and read between the lines and study how pieces between the lines and study how pieces between the lines and study how pieces move, whether it's AI or like you got to move, whether it's AI or like you got to move, whether it's AI or like you got to have to kind of get get ahead of it and have to kind of get get ahead of it and have to kind of get get ahead of it and say, "You know what? I know what you say, "You know what? I know what you say, "You know what? I know what you need. We need to do this." So you're need. We need to do this." So you're need. We need to do this." So you're actually doing your you're trying to actually doing your you're trying to actually doing your you're trying to answer both questions as a series editor answer both questions as a series editor answer both questions as a series editor and as as somebody who who shapes. So So and as as somebody who who shapes. So So and as as somebody who who shapes. So So that's how I started working with Don. that's how I started working with Don. that's how I started working with Don. Just just incredible. Uh Greg Beale and Just just incredible. Uh Greg Beale and Just just incredible. Uh Greg Beale and I, he was my doctoral supervisor at I, he was my doctoral supervisor at I, he was my doctoral supervisor at Wheaton College, 2004 Wheaton College, 2004 Wheaton College, 2004 to 2008. What is What And he's the one to 2008. What is What And he's the one to 2008. What is What And he's the one who taught me Old and New. I mean, who taught me Old and New. I mean, who taught me Old and New. I mean, that's that's his thing, biblical that's that's his thing, biblical that's that's his thing, biblical theology, Old and New. That's What is theology, Old and New. That's What is theology, Old and New. That's What is common to both of these men? I common to both of these men? I common to both of these men? I They know the Bible so well. I mean, They know the Bible so well. I mean, They know the Bible so well. I mean, we're talking we're talking we're talking it it's it's Yes, of course they know it it's it's Yes, of course they know it it's it's Yes, of course they know commentators, but but their their main commentators, but but their their main commentators, but but their their main knowledge, it's not what other people knowledge, it's not what other people knowledge, it's not what other people think about the Bible that's think about the Bible that's think about the Bible that's outstanding.

outstanding. outstanding. It's that they know the Bible themselves It's that they know the Bible themselves It's that they know the Bible themselves like at a at a level like at a at a level like at a at a level that is just incredible. I think that is just incredible. I think that is just incredible. I think scholars and pastors, they strive to scholars and pastors, they strive to scholars and pastors, they strive to read commentaries. They strive to get read commentaries. They strive to get read commentaries. They strive to get ahead of the literature and this and ahead of the literature and this and ahead of the literature and this and that. I'm like, "No, no, no, no. You can that. I'm like, "No, no, no, no. You can that. I'm like, "No, no, no, no. You can do some of that, but you've got to spend do some of that, but you've got to spend do some of that, but you've got to spend your life working your life working your life working in scripture, in scripture, in scripture, feeling it, getting it on the inside. feeling it, getting it on the inside. feeling it, getting it on the inside. And that's that's what's common to both And that's that's what's common to both And that's that's what's common to both Greg and Don. Greg and Don. Greg and Don. Is that they love the Bible. They submit Is that they love the Bible. They submit Is that they love the Bible. They submit to the Bible. They're they're trying to to the Bible. They're they're trying to to the Bible. They're they're trying to figure out how does the Bible work and figure out how does the Bible work and figure out how does the Bible work and then how do we explain it? then how do we explain it? then how do we explain it? Uh Uh Uh I mean, it's really incredible what they I mean, it's really incredible what they I mean, it's really incredible what they what what they've done. what what they've done. what what they've done. It's great. It's great calling. It's great. It's great calling. It's great. It's great calling. Wonderful calling. Wonderful calling. Wonderful calling. One that uh just One that uh just One that uh just fires me up and and it was really fires me up and and it was really fires me up and and it was really supercharged in the time that I got to supercharged in the time that I got to supercharged in the time that I got to spend with with Don. Um when I was in spend with with Don. Um when I was in spend with with Don. Um when I was in Wheaton, I was under the teaching of Wheaton, I was under the teaching of Wheaton, I was under the teaching of people who'd studied with Greg in the people who'd studied with Greg in the people who'd studied with Greg in the in the biblical exegesis program there.

in the biblical exegesis program there. in the biblical exegesis program there. So, I got to benefit from there that as So, I got to benefit from there that as So, I got to benefit from there that as well. And then when especially things well. And then when especially things well. And then when especially things were accelerated in 2023 were accelerated in 2023 were accelerated in 2023 for the Carson Center, I remember when for the Carson Center, I remember when for the Carson Center, I remember when we were talking about the importance of we were talking about the importance of we were talking about the importance of biblical theology for the next biblical theology for the next biblical theology for the next generation, uh Don brought you onto that generation, uh Don brought you onto that generation, uh Don brought you onto that call. That began the process which then call. That began the process which then call. That began the process which then led to you being hired in 2000 and in led to you being hired in 2000 and in led to you being hired in 2000 and in 2024. So, um 2024. So, um 2024. So, um just to just to just to >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> mention for people, of course, uh Ben is >> mention for people, of course, uh Ben is >> mention for people, of course, uh Ben is referring to the Dictionary of the New referring to the Dictionary of the New referring to the Dictionary of the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, just Testament Use of the Old Testament, just Testament Use of the Old Testament, just in case everybody doesn't uh know that in case everybody doesn't uh know that in case everybody doesn't uh know that and already have that wonderful resource and already have that wonderful resource and already have that wonderful resource on their shelves, which is great. And on their shelves, which is great. And on their shelves, which is great. And then um could you give us just 1 second? then um could you give us just 1 second? then um could you give us just 1 second? I mean, I think people are getting a I mean, I think people are getting a I mean, I think people are getting a sense Ben for wide range of what you're sense Ben for wide range of what you're sense Ben for wide range of what you're up to. Tell us just briefly about up to. Tell us just briefly about up to. Tell us just briefly about Biblical Theology Briefing. Biblical Theology Briefing. Biblical Theology Briefing. Yes. So, Biblical Theology Briefing, my Yes. So, Biblical Theology Briefing, my Yes. So, Biblical Theology Briefing, my good friend Matt Harmon and I, who's a good friend Matt Harmon and I, who's a good friend Matt Harmon and I, who's a sudden of student of Doug Moo, and then sudden of student of Doug Moo, and then sudden of student of Doug Moo, and then also Greg Beale, uh Greg works has also Greg Beale, uh Greg works has also Greg Beale, uh Greg works has worked with worked with worked with Matt on a number of things. So, Matt and Matt on a number of things. So, Matt and Matt on a number of things. So, Matt and I are very much in the same We do the I are very much in the same We do the I are very much in the same We do the same thing. And so, he and I started a same thing. And so, he and I started a same thing. And so, he and I started a podcast together called Biblical podcast together called Biblical podcast together called Biblical Theology Briefing. We talk about what is Theology Briefing. We talk about what is Theology Briefing. We talk about what is Biblical Theology. We uh Biblical Theology. We uh Biblical Theology. We uh talk about how does it relate to reading talk about how does it relate to reading talk about how does it relate to reading the Bible? What does How does it relate the Bible? What does How does it relate the Bible? What does How does it relate to uh teaching uh whether it's to uh teaching uh whether it's to uh teaching uh whether it's preaching sermons or teaching Sunday preaching sermons or teaching Sunday preaching sermons or teaching Sunday school. We talk about maybe some new school. We talk about maybe some new school. We talk about maybe some new books that have come out or we we have books that have come out or we we have books that have come out or we we have discussions with guys like Tom discussions with guys like Tom discussions with guys like Tom Schreiner. Hey, tell us about your love

Schreiner. Hey, tell us about your love Schreiner. Hey, tell us about your love of biblical theology. How did you get of biblical theology. How did you get of biblical theology. How did you get here? How does this How does this work? here? How does this How does this work? here? How does this How does this work? Tell us more about your your life and Tell us more about your your life and Tell us more about your your life and and these sorts of things. Yeah, so we and these sorts of things. Yeah, so we and these sorts of things. Yeah, so we have a really exciting podcast that we have a really exciting podcast that we have a really exciting podcast that we started. We're on episode two now. Find started. We're on episode two now. Find started. We're on episode two now. Find that on the Gospel Coalition's YouTube that on the Gospel Coalition's YouTube that on the Gospel Coalition's YouTube channel and also coming soon. channel and also coming soon. channel and also coming soon. Maybe by the time this is out, it may Maybe by the time this is out, it may Maybe by the time this is out, it may already be available on the Carson already be available on the Carson already be available on the Carson Center's Center podcast Center's Center podcast Center's Center podcast as well. So, working working to do that. as well. So, working working to do that. as well. So, working working to do that. I think you've got you've got Jen Wilkin I think you've got you've got Jen Wilkin I think you've got you've got Jen Wilkin coming up I think on an episode there as coming up I think on an episode there as coming up I think on an episode there as well. well. well. Yeah, Mary Hannah and then one of the Yeah, Mary Hannah and then one of the Yeah, Mary Hannah and then one of the fellows, inaugural fellow at the Carson fellows, inaugural fellow at the Carson fellows, inaugural fellow at the Carson Center. And and I think looking forward Center. And and I think looking forward Center. And and I think looking forward to some future collaborations with you to some future collaborations with you to some future collaborations with you and Jen and Greg Beale as well. and Jen and Greg Beale as well. and Jen and Greg Beale as well. That's exactly right. So, lots of stuff That's exactly right. So, lots of stuff That's exactly right. So, lots of stuff going there. going there. going there. Okay, any other study Bibles in the Okay, any other study Bibles in the Okay, any other study Bibles in the works Ben or are you in that mode of works Ben or are you in that mode of works Ben or are you in that mode of >> Oh my gosh, this was a horrible idea. >> Oh my gosh, this was a horrible idea. >> Oh my gosh, this was a horrible idea. Colin, you would think that it was like, Colin, you would think that it was like, Colin, you would think that it was like, "Hey Ben, surely you're not doing this "Hey Ben, surely you're not doing this "Hey Ben, surely you're not doing this again." I mean, obviously you didn't again." I mean, obviously you didn't again." I mean, obviously you didn't have a good time. It [laughter] was so have a good time. It [laughter] was so have a good time. It [laughter] was so hard. You're like, "Why am I here?" You hard. You're like, "Why am I here?" You hard. You're like, "Why am I here?" You were selling this book so well at the were selling this book so well at the were selling this book so well at the beginning of this interview. [laughter] beginning of this interview. [laughter] beginning of this interview. [laughter] >> So, so >> So, so >> So, so So, as I'm doing the new as I was So, as I'm doing the new as I was So, as I'm doing the new as I was working on the New Testament, I'm working on the New Testament, I'm working on the New Testament, I'm sharing what I'm I was sharing my sharing what I'm I was sharing my sharing what I'm I was sharing my results with B&H. And B&H is going, results with B&H. And B&H is going, results with B&H. And B&H is going, "Hey, this is so good. I think this is "Hey, this is so good. I think this is "Hey, this is so good. I think this is going to work great." And then Andy going to work great." And then Andy going to work great." And then Andy McLean B&H, he's in charge of the Bible McLean B&H, he's in charge of the Bible McLean B&H, he's in charge of the Bible and reference. He's like, "Ben, you know and reference. He's like, "Ben, you know and reference. He's like, "Ben, you know you're going to do an Old Testament, you're going to do an Old Testament, you're going to do an Old Testament, right?" And I'm like, "No way, there's right?" And I'm like, "No way, there's right?" And I'm like, "No way, there's no way. This is way too hard." He's no way. This is way too hard." He's no way. This is way too hard." He's like, "No, you're going to do it. We've like, "No, you're going to do it. We've like, "No, you're going to do it. We've got to figure it out."

got to figure it out." got to figure it out." And so now I'm like, "Well, okay. If I And so now I'm like, "Well, okay. If I And so now I'm like, "Well, okay. If I don't do it, who's going to do this don't do it, who's going to do this don't do it, who's going to do this thing?" So, Micah Morales, our he and he thing?" So, Micah Morales, our he and he thing?" So, Micah Morales, our he and he and I are the two editors for the and I are the two editors for the and I are the two editors for the Connecting Scripture Old Testament. We Connecting Scripture Old Testament. We Connecting Scripture Old Testament. We have everybody lined up. They are have everybody lined up. They are have everybody lined up. They are working and I have seen some initial working and I have seen some initial working and I have seen some initial drafts and I Colin, I got to tell you drafts and I Colin, I got to tell you drafts and I Colin, I got to tell you what, it is the most exciting thing what, it is the most exciting thing what, it is the most exciting thing you've ever seen you've ever seen you've ever seen of opening up the Old Testament and you of opening up the Old Testament and you of opening up the Old Testament and you immediately see all these connections. immediately see all these connections. immediately see all these connections. Stuff that when you read you're like, Stuff that when you read you're like, Stuff that when you read you're like, you know what? This kind of sounds you know what? This kind of sounds you know what? This kind of sounds familiar. I think that it I think that familiar. I think that it I think that familiar. I think that it I think that there's something going on here. there's something going on here. there's something going on here. And the answer is well, yes. And we can And the answer is well, yes. And we can And the answer is well, yes. And we can show you where that's going. Um the show you where that's going. Um the show you where that's going. Um the problem is Colin that the Old problem is Colin that the Old problem is Colin that the Old Testament's use of the Old Testament is Testament's use of the Old Testament is Testament's use of the Old Testament is the wild west. It is the wild west. It is the wild west. It is it's the craziest thing. it's the craziest thing. it's the craziest thing. Evangelicals have been doing this in the Evangelicals have been doing this in the Evangelicals have been doing this in the New Testament, but they have not been New Testament, but they have not been New Testament, but they have not been doing the use of the old in the old. doing the use of the old in the old. doing the use of the old in the old. This is very much we're breaking new This is very much we're breaking new This is very much we're breaking new ground here. It's like going to take a ground here. It's like going to take a ground here. It's like going to take a ton of work, but real we are really ton of work, but real we are really ton of work, but real we are really excited. With the church really needs excited. With the church really needs excited. With the church really needs this. The church did not ask. I did not this. The church did not ask. I did not this. The church did not ask. I did not get emails, but I'm like, I think that get emails, but I'm like, I think that get emails, but I'm like, I think that the church really needs this and it's the church really needs this and it's the church really needs this and it's going to take me several years, but it's going to take me several years, but it's going to take me several years, but it's it's worth it. I think that I think that it's worth it. I think that I think that it's worth it. I think that I think that pastors are just going to love it.

pastors are just going to love it. pastors are just going to love it. >> When can we look forward to that? You >> When can we look forward to that? You >> When can we look forward to that? You have a general timeline? have a general timeline? have a general timeline? >> 2028. >> 2028. >> 2028. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Is like is like >> Is like is like >> Is like is like >> Plenty of Plenty of time then in the >> Plenty of Plenty of time then in the >> Plenty of Plenty of time then in the meantime meantime meantime to be able to enjoy all of these other to be able to enjoy all of these other to be able to enjoy all of these other abundant resources. abundant resources. abundant resources. >> It's >> It's >> It's >> The Connecting Scripture New Testament, >> The Connecting Scripture New Testament, >> The Connecting Scripture New Testament, the Concise Bible Commentary, Biblical the Concise Bible Commentary, Biblical the Concise Bible Commentary, Biblical Theology Briefing. Theology Briefing. Theology Briefing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Lots of The New Studies in Biblical >> Lots of The New Studies in Biblical >> Lots of The New Studies in Biblical Theology series. Theology series. Theology series. A few things. A few things. A few things. >> There's a few things. But But this is >> There's a few things. But But this is >> There's a few things. But But this is really exciting because Colin, you're really exciting because Colin, you're really exciting because Colin, you're you're like me in that there's nothing you're like me in that there's nothing you're like me in that there's nothing more exciting than let scripture talk more exciting than let scripture talk more exciting than let scripture talk about itself. about itself. about itself. It's the most exciting thing in the It's the most exciting thing in the It's the most exciting thing in the world. world. world. And that's what I get to do and I'm and And that's what I get to do and I'm and And that's what I get to do and I'm and I'm just trying to make it accessible. I'm just trying to make it accessible. I'm just trying to make it accessible. And so it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of And so it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of And so it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of work, but it's a lot of fun. So, yeah. work, but it's a lot of fun. So, yeah. work, but it's a lot of fun. So, yeah. >> Great way to close it. >> Great way to close it. >> Great way to close it. Ben Gladd, executive [music] director Ben Gladd, executive [music] director Ben Gladd, executive [music] director Carson Center for Theological Renewal, Carson Center for Theological Renewal, Carson Center for Theological Renewal, thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. thanks for joining me. >> Thanks so much, Colin. have a great day.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.