Going to Church When It Hurts [The Deep Dish - Ep. 23]

one day the church is going to be better one day the church is going to be better than she is now. And so he's sticking than she is now. And so he's sticking than she is now. And so he's sticking with her with that future vision in with her with that future vision in with her with that future vision in mind. And he can give us that vision mind. And he can give us that vision mind. And he can give us that vision that, you know, by his spirit like this that, you know, by his spirit like this that, you know, by his spirit like this church isn't what she's going to be one church isn't what she's going to be one church isn't what she's going to be one day. Like hold on, hold on. I'm I'm at day. Like hold on, hold on. I'm I'm at day. Like hold on, hold on. I'm I'm at work here and it's going to be better. work here and it's going to be better. work here and it's going to be better. It's going to get better. Just stick It's going to get better. Just stick It's going to get better. Just stick with it. [Music] [Music] Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where podcast from the Gospel Coalition where podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about deep truths. Um, I'm Melissa Krueger and deep truths. Um, I'm Melissa Krueger and deep truths. Um, I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm here with my co-host, Courtney I'm here with my co-host, Courtney I'm here with my co-host, Courtney Doctor, and today we have our good Doctor, and today we have our good Doctor, and today we have our good friend and TGC colleague, Megan Hill. friend and TGC colleague, Megan Hill. friend and TGC colleague, Megan Hill. We're so glad that you're here, Megan. We're so glad that you're here, Megan. We're so glad that you're here, Megan. Oh, it's so great to be here. Oh, it's so great to be here. Oh, it's so great to be here. >> Well, thanks for joining us. Um, Megan >> Well, thanks for joining us. Um, Megan >> Well, thanks for joining us. Um, Megan is she's managing editor of the Gospel is she's managing editor of the Gospel is she's managing editor of the Gospel Coalition. She's a pastor's wife. She's Coalition. She's a pastor's wife. She's Coalition. She's a pastor's wife. She's the mother to four kids who rage in age the mother to four kids who rage in age the mother to four kids who rage in age from 8 to 19. Is that right? Okay, we from 8 to 19. Is that right? Okay, we from 8 to 19. Is that right? Okay, we have that. That That's crazy. Like they have that. That That's crazy. Like they have that. That That's crazy. Like they were like two yesterday. Um, and so were like two yesterday. Um, and so were like two yesterday. Um, and so we're so glad to have you today, Megan.

we're so glad to have you today, Megan. we're so glad to have you today, Megan. We are so glad to have you. First time I We are so glad to have you. First time I We are so glad to have you. First time I met you, you were pregnant with that met you, you were pregnant with that met you, you were pregnant with that little one that's 8 years old now, which little one that's 8 years old now, which little one that's 8 years old now, which is crazy. But we are here today. And is crazy. But we are here today. And is crazy. But we are here today. And Megan, I'm just so glad that it's you Megan, I'm just so glad that it's you Megan, I'm just so glad that it's you that's joining us for this conversation that's joining us for this conversation that's joining us for this conversation because we're really here for a for a because we're really here for a for a because we're really here for a for a tough conversation. We we want to talk tough conversation. We we want to talk tough conversation. We we want to talk about two words that should not go about two words that should not go about two words that should not go together but do. Um church hurt. And we together but do. Um church hurt. And we together but do. Um church hurt. And we know that many of you listening and even know that many of you listening and even know that many of you listening and even the three of us um have either the three of us um have either the three of us um have either experienced church hurt. Either you've experienced church hurt. Either you've experienced church hurt. Either you've been through it yourself um to different been through it yourself um to different been through it yourself um to different degrees or all of us know and love degrees or all of us know and love degrees or all of us know and love people who have been through it or who people who have been through it or who people who have been through it or who are going through it currently. And are going through it currently. And are going through it currently. And maybe you're walking with somebody who maybe you're walking with somebody who maybe you're walking with somebody who is experienced or has experienced a lot is experienced or has experienced a lot is experienced or has experienced a lot of church hurt. And so what we're hoping of church hurt. And so what we're hoping of church hurt. And so what we're hoping is that this episode provides just help is that this episode provides just help is that this episode provides just help and Lord willing by his spirit healing and Lord willing by his spirit healing and Lord willing by his spirit healing for all of us. And so I just want to for all of us. And so I just want to for all of us. And so I just want to start off by saying that if you're start off by saying that if you're start off by saying that if you're listening and you have been hurt by the listening and you have been hurt by the listening and you have been hurt by the church, you've experienced this thing church, you've experienced this thing church, you've experienced this thing that we're calling church hurt, which that we're calling church hurt, which that we're calling church hurt, which we're going to define in a minute. But we're going to define in a minute. But we're going to define in a minute. But we just want to start off by saying that we just want to start off by saying that we just want to start off by saying that we are so sorry. Uh we know that church we are so sorry. Uh we know that church we are so sorry. Uh we know that church hurt is a deep is a deep hurt. It is a hurt is a deep is a deep hurt. It is a hurt is a deep is a deep hurt. It is a deep wound. And we're we're going to deep wound. And we're we're going to deep wound. And we're we're going to talk about why that's why that's true.

talk about why that's why that's true. talk about why that's why that's true. But uh we hope that this conversation But uh we hope that this conversation But uh we hope that this conversation offers some help and some healing and offers some help and some healing and offers some help and some healing and some hope. Um, so I know that often when some hope. Um, so I know that often when some hope. Um, so I know that often when believers get hurt by or in their church believers get hurt by or in their church believers get hurt by or in their church family, uh, they feel shocked and family, uh, they feel shocked and family, uh, they feel shocked and rightly so, I think. But why is church rightly so, I think. But why is church rightly so, I think. But why is church hurt so unexpected? Which is going to hurt so unexpected? Which is going to hurt so unexpected? Which is going to kind of lead us into why it's so kind of lead us into why it's so kind of lead us into why it's so painful? Yeah. Well, you have this group painful? Yeah. Well, you have this group painful? Yeah. Well, you have this group of people that you expect better of. I of people that you expect better of. I of people that you expect better of. I think I think that's kind of what it is. think I think that's kind of what it is. think I think that's kind of what it is. you expect, oh, these are people whose you expect, oh, these are people whose you expect, oh, these are people whose lives have been transformed by Christ. lives have been transformed by Christ. lives have been transformed by Christ. These are people who want to be like These are people who want to be like These are people who want to be like Jesus. These are people who know what it Jesus. These are people who know what it Jesus. These are people who know what it means to live like Jesus. And yet, means to live like Jesus. And yet, means to live like Jesus. And yet, they're not really living up to that. they're not really living up to that. they're not really living up to that. And so, we sort of expect better. H And so, we sort of expect better. H And so, we sort of expect better. H that's true. You know, I probably should that's true. You know, I probably should that's true. You know, I probably should have started just by asking, let's just have started just by asking, let's just have started just by asking, let's just define let's just define what church define let's just define what church define let's just define what church hurt is. And so, Megan, would you kick hurt is. And so, Megan, would you kick hurt is. And so, Megan, would you kick that off for us? Yeah, and you guys can that off for us? Yeah, and you guys can that off for us? Yeah, and you guys can chime in as there are things that um chime in as there are things that um chime in as there are things that um occur to you, but seems to me that occur to you, but seems to me that occur to you, but seems to me that fundamentally fundamentally fundamentally um it is times when we have either been um it is times when we have either been um it is times when we have either been sinned against or failed by the people sinned against or failed by the people sinned against or failed by the people in the church. So, you know, sometimes in the church. So, you know, sometimes in the church. So, you know, sometimes it's really intentional it's really intentional it's really intentional sinning against um you know, somebody sinning against um you know, somebody sinning against um you know, somebody who gossips about you or slanders you or who gossips about you or slanders you or who gossips about you or slanders you or you know, a pastor who is abusive or you

you know, a pastor who is abusive or you you know, a pastor who is abusive or you know, really hard intentional things. know, really hard intentional things. know, really hard intentional things. But sometimes it can be hurts just by But sometimes it can be hurts just by But sometimes it can be hurts just by people failing. Just even human weakness people failing. Just even human weakness people failing. Just even human weakness even that they're not noticing you. even that they're not noticing you. even that they're not noticing you. They're not including you. They're not They're not including you. They're not They're not including you. They're not and it's not necessarily malicious on and it's not necessarily malicious on and it's not necessarily malicious on their part, but that doesn't mean it's their part, but that doesn't mean it's their part, but that doesn't mean it's not super hurtful at the same time. not super hurtful at the same time. not super hurtful at the same time. >> That's really a good way to distinguish >> That's really a good way to distinguish >> That's really a good way to distinguish it. I like that. Like active hurt versus it. I like that. Like active hurt versus it. I like that. Like active hurt versus I mean, you know, in our Presbyterian I mean, you know, in our Presbyterian I mean, you know, in our Presbyterian parliament, we would say sins of parliament, we would say sins of parliament, we would say sins of omission and sins of commission. And I omission and sins of commission. And I omission and sins of commission. And I think we all have experienced that, you think we all have experienced that, you think we all have experienced that, you know, just at some level in the church. know, just at some level in the church. know, just at some level in the church. Every one of us kind of wondering, I Every one of us kind of wondering, I Every one of us kind of wondering, I mean, I remember some friend, mean, I remember some friend, mean, I remember some friend, >> you know, she was like, "Yeah, I missed >> you know, she was like, "Yeah, I missed >> you know, she was like, "Yeah, I missed four weeks in a row and I don't think four weeks in a row and I don't think four weeks in a row and I don't think anyone noticed." anyone noticed." anyone noticed." >> You that kind of just omission. No one >> You that kind of just omission. No one >> You that kind of just omission. No one no one reached out to me to say no one reached out to me to say no one reached out to me to say anything. And then yet other people have anything. And then yet other people have anything. And then yet other people have experienced experienced experienced true active sinning against. And uh you true active sinning against. And uh you true active sinning against. And uh you know I can think of um one thing I've know I can think of um one thing I've know I can think of um one thing I've I've heard my husband talk about Mike I've heard my husband talk about Mike I've heard my husband talk about Mike say and he said it's one thing like if say and he said it's one thing like if say and he said it's one thing like if you were walking down the street and you were walking down the street and you were walking down the street and someone attacked you some random person.

someone attacked you some random person. someone attacked you some random person. We'd all be like oh that's so horrible We'd all be like oh that's so horrible We'd all be like oh that's so horrible that this person just randomly attacked that this person just randomly attacked that this person just randomly attacked you. But you know if you said yeah I was you. But you know if you said yeah I was you. But you know if you said yeah I was walking down the street and my dad walking down the street and my dad walking down the street and my dad attacked me. attacked me. attacked me. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. There's something more painful about There's something more painful about There's something more painful about that because we expect the church to be that because we expect the church to be that because we expect the church to be a family, a family, a family, you know, and it's like coming home and you know, and it's like coming home and you know, and it's like coming home and no one says hi to you when you get home no one says hi to you when you get home no one says hi to you when you get home from school one day. Like that feels from school one day. Like that feels from school one day. Like that feels more egregious than just some random more egregious than just some random more egregious than just some random person because we really we we all person because we really we we all person because we really we we all believe in the church believe in the church believe in the church >> like as the people of God, as the family >> like as the people of God, as the family >> like as the people of God, as the family of God, we actually believe in it so of God, we actually believe in it so of God, we actually believe in it so much that when it fails, it hurts. I much that when it fails, it hurts. I much that when it fails, it hurts. I think think think >> Yeah, that's good. It's the family. And >> Yeah, that's good. It's the family. And >> Yeah, that's good. It's the family. And I think I think that we deep in our I think I think that we deep in our I think I think that we deep in our souls know that this is meant to be souls know that this is meant to be souls know that this is meant to be everything that God's word says about everything that God's word says about everything that God's word says about it. Everything that God's word says is it. Everything that God's word says is it. Everything that God's word says is true about the church. That it is that true about the church. That it is that true about the church. That it is that it is our family. That these are our it is our family. That these are our it is our family. That these are our spiritual mothers and brothers and and spiritual mothers and brothers and and spiritual mothers and brothers and and sisters. And I know I'm confusing all of sisters. And I know I'm confusing all of sisters. And I know I'm confusing all of my different family members, but you my different family members, but you my different family members, but you know, they're all they're all in there.

know, they're all they're all in there. know, they're all they're all in there. And we know that. And it is more And we know that. And it is more And we know that. And it is more personal and it does hurt more. And I personal and it does hurt more. And I personal and it does hurt more. And I just find that really helpful to think just find that really helpful to think just find that really helpful to think about the things that are omitted versus about the things that are omitted versus about the things that are omitted versus the things that are committed. And um the things that are committed. And um the things that are committed. And um yeah, I think we've all experienced both yeah, I think we've all experienced both yeah, I think we've all experienced both of those. But you know, just even like of those. But you know, just even like of those. But you know, just even like looking at the word like we are shocked looking at the word like we are shocked looking at the word like we are shocked and surprised at church hurt. I think and surprised at church hurt. I think and surprised at church hurt. I think every time. I think every time because every time. I think every time because every time. I think every time because of these expectations, because of what of these expectations, because of what of these expectations, because of what we know the church is supposed to be, we know the church is supposed to be, we know the church is supposed to be, because we love the church. And and because we love the church. And and because we love the church. And and hopefully if you're listening, you love hopefully if you're listening, you love hopefully if you're listening, you love the church. It is God's idea. It is a it the church. It is God's idea. It is a it the church. It is God's idea. It is a it is a beautiful place and it is where is a beautiful place and it is where is a beautiful place and it is where we're supposed to belong. But but we're we're supposed to belong. But but we're we're supposed to belong. But but we're we're shocked. We're surprised. And part we're shocked. We're surprised. And part we're shocked. We're surprised. And part of that I think is good because our of that I think is good because our of that I think is good because our expectation of church is probably is expectation of church is probably is expectation of church is probably is probably pretty good and right. But God probably pretty good and right. But God probably pretty good and right. But God is not shocked. Um and there are many is not shocked. Um and there are many is not shocked. Um and there are many examples in scripture of of some real examples in scripture of of some real examples in scripture of of some real life examples of of the church hurting life examples of of the church hurting life examples of of the church hurting people in scripture. So Megan, can you people in scripture. So Megan, can you people in scripture. So Megan, can you can you talk about a few of those? can you talk about a few of those? can you talk about a few of those? >> Yeah. Um, one of the ones that I often >> Yeah. Um, one of the ones that I often >> Yeah. Um, one of the ones that I often go to is the Apostle Paul. Um, in the go to is the Apostle Paul. Um, in the go to is the Apostle Paul. Um, in the end of um, second Timothy, um, Paul is end of um, second Timothy, um, Paul is end of um, second Timothy, um, Paul is in prison. This was like his last letter in prison. This was like his last letter in prison. This was like his last letter we think that he wrote, right? And he we think that he wrote, right? And he we think that he wrote, right? And he was in this Roman prison. And at the was in this Roman prison. And at the was in this Roman prison. And at the very end of that letter, he says, at my very end of that letter, he says, at my very end of that letter, he says, at my last at my first offense, no one came last at my first offense, no one came last at my first offense, no one came and stood by me. All deserted me. And so and stood by me. All deserted me. And so and stood by me. All deserted me. And so here we have the great apostle Paul who here we have the great apostle Paul who here we have the great apostle Paul who was you know a pastor to so many and

was you know a pastor to so many and was you know a pastor to so many and spiritual father to so many and here he spiritual father to so many and here he spiritual father to so many and here he was in this Roman prison and none of the was in this Roman prison and none of the was in this Roman prison and none of the Christians showed up to support him. Christians showed up to support him. Christians showed up to support him. >> And you know if any of you would think >> And you know if any of you would think >> And you know if any of you would think well somebody would show up for anybody well somebody would show up for anybody well somebody would show up for anybody it would be the apostle Paul right? So it would be the apostle Paul right? So it would be the apostle Paul right? So we have examples like that. But then we we have examples like that. But then we we have examples like that. But then we have, you know, just sort of once you have, you know, just sort of once you have, you know, just sort of once you start looking through the scriptures, start looking through the scriptures, start looking through the scriptures, you see examples of how real the Bible you see examples of how real the Bible you see examples of how real the Bible is all over the place. You know, um is all over the place. You know, um is all over the place. You know, um David in one of his psalms, he talks David in one of his psalms, he talks David in one of his psalms, he talks about being wounded by the friend who about being wounded by the friend who about being wounded by the friend who went up with him to worship. sort of to went up with him to worship. sort of to went up with him to worship. sort of to what Melissa says. He said, you know, if what Melissa says. He said, you know, if what Melissa says. He said, you know, if it had been some random pagan that hurt it had been some random pagan that hurt it had been some random pagan that hurt me, no, no, that wouldn't have bothered me, no, no, that wouldn't have bothered me, no, no, that wouldn't have bothered me, but it was my friend, the one who I me, but it was my friend, the one who I me, but it was my friend, the one who I used to take counsel together with in used to take counsel together with in used to take counsel together with in the house of God, that was the person the house of God, that was the person the house of God, that was the person who wounded me. I always think of Hannah who wounded me. I always think of Hannah who wounded me. I always think of Hannah um you know when she came to the temple um you know when she came to the temple um you know when she came to the temple to the the you know the the tabernacle to the the you know the the tabernacle to the the you know the the tabernacle the place of meeting uh where she was the place of meeting uh where she was the place of meeting uh where she was and was just brokenhearted about her and was just brokenhearted about her and was just brokenhearted about her infertility and was praying to the Lord infertility and was praying to the Lord infertility and was praying to the Lord and Eli who was meant to be the and Eli who was meant to be the and Eli who was meant to be the spiritual leader who was the priest in spiritual leader who was the priest in spiritual leader who was the priest in that place he's not sympathetic to her that place he's not sympathetic to her that place he's not sympathetic to her he assumes that she's drunk he calls her he assumes that she's drunk he calls her he assumes that she's drunk he calls her out for being drunk you know that's a out for being drunk you know that's a out for being drunk you know that's a kind of church hurt too when people kind of church hurt too when people kind of church hurt too when people assume assume the worst of you at a very assume assume the worst of you at a very assume assume the worst of you at a very for Hannah that was a very low part of for Hannah that was a very low part of for Hannah that was a very low part of her life. So I don't know I mean we her life. So I don't know I mean we her life. So I don't know I mean we could go on and on. I'm sure you guys could go on and on. I'm sure you guys could go on and on. I'm sure you guys have examples too but as you go through have examples too but as you go through have examples too but as you go through scripture you see again and again that scripture you see again and again that scripture you see again and again that the Lord is very honest about how hard

the Lord is very honest about how hard the Lord is very honest about how hard it can be to be part of his people. it can be to be part of his people. it can be to be part of his people. >> That's really good. I because also in >> That's really good. I because also in >> That's really good. I because also in second Timothy he talks about Deus Deus second Timothy he talks about Deus Deus second Timothy he talks about Deus Deus Damas how do we say it? Deus I think Damas how do we say it? Deus I think Damas how do we say it? Deus I think Deus. Okay. you know, in love with this Deus. Okay. you know, in love with this Deus. Okay. you know, in love with this present world has deserted me and gone, present world has deserted me and gone, present world has deserted me and gone, you know, I mean, he he he had deserted you know, I mean, he he he had deserted you know, I mean, he he he had deserted him, you know, so that was just another him, you know, so that was just another him, you know, so that was just another and seemed to desert the faith it seemed and seemed to desert the faith it seemed and seemed to desert the faith it seemed like in the in the bigger picture. But I like in the in the bigger picture. But I like in the in the bigger picture. But I also think it's in Acts when we we see also think it's in Acts when we we see also think it's in Acts when we we see this this verse. I'm just going to read this this verse. I'm just going to read this this verse. I'm just going to read read this cuz read this cuz read this cuz >> I have found particular um I think >> I have found particular um I think >> I have found particular um I think encouragement while this is a encouragement while this is a encouragement while this is a discouraging passage, an encouragement discouraging passage, an encouragement discouraging passage, an encouragement that it's not new. that it's not new. that it's not new. So that this was happening in the first So that this was happening in the first So that this was happening in the first century church, you know, where they had century church, you know, where they had century church, you know, where they had the tongues of fire and the Holy Spirit the tongues of fire and the Holy Spirit the tongues of fire and the Holy Spirit came down, you know, that church still came down, you know, that church still came down, you know, that church still struggled with this. And so that's struggled with this. And so that's struggled with this. And so that's helpful for me. Like it's not, oh, the helpful for me. Like it's not, oh, the helpful for me. Like it's not, oh, the church today has gone rogue or bad. This church today has gone rogue or bad. This church today has gone rogue or bad. This was happening in the early church. And I was happening in the early church. And I was happening in the early church. And I so I find a little bit of comfort in so I find a little bit of comfort in so I find a little bit of comfort in this warning. It says, "Pay careful this warning. It says, "Pay careful this warning. It says, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the attention to yourselves and to all the attention to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made flock in which the Holy Spirit has made flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseas seers to care for the you overseas seers to care for the you overseas seers to care for the church of God which he obtained with his church of God which he obtained with his church of God which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my own blood. I know that after my own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in departure fierce wolves will come in departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. And among you, not sparing the flock. And among you, not sparing the flock. And from your own selves will arise men from your own selves will arise men from your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things to draw away the speaking twisted things to draw away the speaking twisted things to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore, be disciples after them. Therefore, be disciples after them. Therefore, be alert, remembering that for three years

alert, remembering that for three years alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish I did not cease night or day to admonish I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. So, here's this everyone with tears. So, here's this everyone with tears. So, here's this warning that comes in. This is Acts 20. warning that comes in. This is Acts 20. warning that comes in. This is Acts 20. So, so preparing you to be on alert that So, so preparing you to be on alert that So, so preparing you to be on alert that all might not be right that some people all might not be right that some people all might not be right that some people are going to come in falsely to are going to come in falsely to are going to come in falsely to Christian community and use it for their Christian community and use it for their Christian community and use it for their own good. you or try to own good. you or try to own good. you or try to basically take away disciples for basically take away disciples for basically take away disciples for themselves. And there are other passages themselves. And there are other passages themselves. And there are other passages that talk about um men who were greedy that talk about um men who were greedy that talk about um men who were greedy for gain going after, you know, the for gain going after, you know, the for gain going after, you know, the people of God. And and we see that, people of God. And and we see that, people of God. And and we see that, right? I mean, we we see plenty of right? I mean, we we see plenty of right? I mean, we we see plenty of prosperity preachers who are clearly prosperity preachers who are clearly prosperity preachers who are clearly just trying to get people's money and just trying to get people's money and just trying to get people's money and not really love and shepherd the people not really love and shepherd the people not really love and shepherd the people of God. Um, but I find this actually of God. Um, but I find this actually of God. Um, but I find this actually encouraging that they were being warned encouraging that they were being warned encouraging that they were being warned in the early church. What about you, in the early church. What about you, in the early church. What about you, Courtney? Are there any verses or Courtney? Are there any verses or Courtney? Are there any verses or anything, you know, I was even Well, I anything, you know, I was even Well, I anything, you know, I was even Well, I was super encouraged by what you were was super encouraged by what you were was super encouraged by what you were mentioning about David and just kind of mentioning about David and just kind of mentioning about David and just kind of the, you know, the shock that he felt of the, you know, the shock that he felt of the, you know, the shock that he felt of like the pain of a of a brother and like the pain of a of a brother and like the pain of a of a brother and being hurt by that. But I also think being hurt by that. But I also think being hurt by that. But I also think about about Philippians 4:2 where you about about Philippians 4:2 where you about about Philippians 4:2 where you know they're called out Yodia Yodia and know they're called out Yodia Yodia and know they're called out Yodia Yodia and uh Cinti and they're called out for uh Cinti and they're called out for uh Cinti and they're called out for disagreeing in the Lord. And I'm kind of disagreeing in the Lord. And I'm kind of disagreeing in the Lord. And I'm kind of like okay so if you were one of them like okay so if you were one of them like okay so if you were one of them like what would that have felt like? But like what would that have felt like? But like what would that have felt like? But if you were in the church with them, if you were in the church with them, if you were in the church with them, right? And you were just kind of right? And you were just kind of right? And you were just kind of frustrated with like their constant frustrated with like their constant frustrated with like their constant bickering because that's clearly what bickering because that's clearly what bickering because that's clearly what was going on. Like they just could not

was going on. Like they just could not was going on. Like they just could not agree and it must have been pretty agree and it must have been pretty agree and it must have been pretty public and what that's like. And then to public and what that's like. And then to public and what that's like. And then to kind of came public. It's like, "Thanks, kind of came public. It's like, "Thanks, kind of came public. It's like, "Thanks, Paul." Right? But then, but the Lord, Paul." Right? But then, but the Lord, Paul." Right? But then, but the Lord, you know, we know that all scripture is you know, we know that all scripture is you know, we know that all scripture is God breathed. And so, the Lord is like, God breathed. And so, the Lord is like, God breathed. And so, the Lord is like, "Yeah, "Yeah, "Yeah, I'm calling my people to like to move I'm calling my people to like to move I'm calling my people to like to move together." Now, these were It's very together." Now, these were It's very together." Now, these were It's very different than what you were just different than what you were just different than what you were just talking about, Melissa. So, you're talking about, Melissa. So, you're talking about, Melissa. So, you're talking about wolves and false teachers, talking about wolves and false teachers, talking about wolves and false teachers, and you're talking, you know, about like and you're talking, you know, about like and you're talking, you know, about like when the pain comes from an abuse of when the pain comes from an abuse of when the pain comes from an abuse of power. power. power. um versus like being hurt by one um versus like being hurt by one um versus like being hurt by one another. And those are they're just all another. And those are they're just all another. And those are they're just all like in this big picture of church hurt, like in this big picture of church hurt, like in this big picture of church hurt, but they are very different. When power but they are very different. When power but they are very different. When power is involved, obviously that is going to is involved, obviously that is going to is involved, obviously that is going to be um that is that is going to be church be um that is that is going to be church be um that is that is going to be church hurt that that goes in towards abuse. hurt that that goes in towards abuse. hurt that that goes in towards abuse. And it's a it's a different type of hurt And it's a it's a different type of hurt And it's a it's a different type of hurt versus like I think I'm just still versus like I think I'm just still versus like I think I'm just still really stuck on the omission and really stuck on the omission and really stuck on the omission and commission cuz I think that that's commission cuz I think that that's commission cuz I think that that's really helpful. I have a good friend, a really helpful. I have a good friend, a really helpful. I have a good friend, a young woman who um she joined a church young woman who um she joined a church young woman who um she joined a church and she was not kind of what you were and she was not kind of what you were and she was not kind of what you were saying Megan like she was never invited saying Megan like she was never invited saying Megan like she was never invited to small groups. She was never reached to small groups. She was never reached to small groups. She was never reached out to for women's Bible study. She was out to for women's Bible study. She was out to for women's Bible study. She was sort of in that postcol age group. But sort of in that postcol age group. But sort of in that postcol age group. But then the first time the director of then the first time the director of then the first time the director of women's initiatives reach our women's women's initiatives reach our women's women's initiatives reach our women's ministry reached out to her, she said, ministry reached out to her, she said, ministry reached out to her, she said, um, would you be able to babysit for one um, would you be able to babysit for one um, would you be able to babysit for one of our, you know, small groups? And she of our, you know, small groups? And she of our, you know, small groups? And she just like this young woman woman was just like this young woman woman was just like this young woman woman was just so hurt by that cuz she was like,

just so hurt by that cuz she was like, just so hurt by that cuz she was like, I'm not being seen as a as a woman. And I'm not being seen as a as a woman. And I'm not being seen as a as a woman. And so we're just kind of testifying to like so we're just kind of testifying to like so we're just kind of testifying to like the the spectrum and the range of of the the spectrum and the range of of the the spectrum and the range of of church hurts. Um, they just come in many church hurts. Um, they just come in many church hurts. Um, they just come in many shapes and sizes in many different ways. shapes and sizes in many different ways. shapes and sizes in many different ways. But I think that when we're hurt, no But I think that when we're hurt, no But I think that when we're hurt, no matter how you know what is hurting us, matter how you know what is hurting us, matter how you know what is hurting us, most of our instincts are to run in the most of our instincts are to run in the most of our instincts are to run in the other direction as fast as we can. Even other direction as fast as we can. Even other direction as fast as we can. Even me who I tend to have more of a fight me who I tend to have more of a fight me who I tend to have more of a fight complex than a flight complex. But the complex than a flight complex. But the complex than a flight complex. But the flight, even in that, we just want to we flight, even in that, we just want to we flight, even in that, we just want to we just want to run the other way. But when just want to run the other way. But when just want to run the other way. But when it comes to church and church hurt, how it comes to church and church hurt, how it comes to church and church hurt, how can we resist that instinct? Why should can we resist that instinct? Why should can we resist that instinct? Why should we resist that instinct? And what would we resist that instinct? And what would we resist that instinct? And what would you say to someone who who wonders why you say to someone who who wonders why you say to someone who who wonders why in the world she should continue to go in the world she should continue to go in the world she should continue to go to the very place that she was hurt? to the very place that she was hurt? to the very place that she was hurt? >> Yeah, I think that's a really I mean >> Yeah, I think that's a really I mean >> Yeah, I think that's a really I mean that's probably the nugget of the that's probably the nugget of the that's probably the nugget of the question, right? That most people come question, right? That most people come question, right? That most people come to at some experience of hurt like why to at some experience of hurt like why to at some experience of hurt like why should I keep sticking with this? And should I keep sticking with this? And should I keep sticking with this? And this is a different question. I think this is a different question. I think this is a different question. I think we're going to maybe talk about this we're going to maybe talk about this we're going to maybe talk about this later about whether that particular later about whether that particular later about whether that particular church is one that you should stay in or church is one that you should stay in or church is one that you should stay in or not. But I think what you're asking not. But I think what you're asking not. But I think what you're asking here, Courtney, is just sort of why here, Courtney, is just sort of why here, Courtney, is just sort of why stick with church in general, whether stick with church in general, whether stick with church in general, whether that's that particular church or whether that's that particular church or whether that's that particular church or whether it's finding another church, you know, it's finding another church, you know, it's finding another church, you know, and I definitely think that in scripture and I definitely think that in scripture and I definitely think that in scripture we see that the answer is to keep we see that the answer is to keep we see that the answer is to keep sticking with the church. Um, and I sticking with the church. Um, and I sticking with the church. Um, and I think we see that from no one less than

think we see that from no one less than think we see that from no one less than Christ himself really, which can be such Christ himself really, which can be such Christ himself really, which can be such a sweet encouragement to us, right? that a sweet encouragement to us, right? that a sweet encouragement to us, right? that Christ came for his people and he Christ came for his people and he Christ came for his people and he suffered so much at their hands right he suffered so much at their hands right he suffered so much at their hands right he was in his earthly ministry he was was in his earthly ministry he was was in his earthly ministry he was misunderstood people followed him then misunderstood people followed him then misunderstood people followed him then they didn't follow him that at you know they didn't follow him that at you know they didn't follow him that at you know at the week of his crucifixion you know at the week of his crucifixion you know at the week of his crucifixion you know his disciples were largely nowhere to be his disciples were largely nowhere to be his disciples were largely nowhere to be found and denied even knowing him and he found and denied even knowing him and he found and denied even knowing him and he suffered so much and yet scripture tells suffered so much and yet scripture tells suffered so much and yet scripture tells us right having loved his own he loved us right having loved his own he loved us right having loved his own he loved them to the end and so he even stuck them to the end and so he even stuck them to the end and so he even stuck with the church. Um, and I think we see with the church. Um, and I think we see with the church. Um, and I think we see also in scripture that he stuck with the also in scripture that he stuck with the also in scripture that he stuck with the church because he has a vision of the church because he has a vision of the church because he has a vision of the church's future and he knows that as church's future and he knows that as church's future and he knows that as Ephesians says he's going to present her Ephesians says he's going to present her Ephesians says he's going to present her to himself in glorious splendor. And so to himself in glorious splendor. And so to himself in glorious splendor. And so one day the church is going to be better one day the church is going to be better one day the church is going to be better than she is now. And so he's sticking than she is now. And so he's sticking than she is now. And so he's sticking with her with that future vision in with her with that future vision in with her with that future vision in mind. And so I think that can encourage mind. And so I think that can encourage mind. And so I think that can encourage us Christ as our example. Yes. but also us Christ as our example. Yes. but also us Christ as our example. Yes. but also that it's Christ's power in us that that it's Christ's power in us that that it's Christ's power in us that comforts us in that hurt. You know, that comforts us in that hurt. You know, that comforts us in that hurt. You know, that that Christ has walked through those that Christ has walked through those that Christ has walked through those hurts and and he's he's dwelling in us hurts and and he's he's dwelling in us hurts and and he's he's dwelling in us by his spirit. And so, he can minister by his spirit. And so, he can minister by his spirit. And so, he can minister his comfort, he can give us his strength his comfort, he can give us his strength his comfort, he can give us his strength to keep showing up even when it's hard.

to keep showing up even when it's hard. to keep showing up even when it's hard. And he can give us that vision that, you And he can give us that vision that, you And he can give us that vision that, you know, by his spirit like this church know, by his spirit like this church know, by his spirit like this church isn't what she's going to be one day. isn't what she's going to be one day. isn't what she's going to be one day. Like, hold on, hold on. I'm I'm at work Like, hold on, hold on. I'm I'm at work Like, hold on, hold on. I'm I'm at work here and it's going to be better. It's here and it's going to be better. It's here and it's going to be better. It's going to get better. just stick with it. going to get better. just stick with it. going to get better. just stick with it. >> I think that's such a good point that >> I think that's such a good point that >> I think that's such a good point that you said about Jesus's experience you said about Jesus's experience you said about Jesus's experience because we can go one of two ways with because we can go one of two ways with because we can go one of two ways with church hurt. We can think what was I church hurt. We can think what was I church hurt. We can think what was I doing wrong and maybe why no one invited doing wrong and maybe why no one invited doing wrong and maybe why no one invited me over and and there's always a good me over and and there's always a good me over and and there's always a good point for self-reflection for any of us point for self-reflection for any of us point for self-reflection for any of us like maybe but um you know or we can like maybe but um you know or we can like maybe but um you know or we can just think it's all their fault or just think it's all their fault or just think it's all their fault or whatever and I had nothing to do with whatever and I had nothing to do with whatever and I had nothing to do with this. But what we see in the life of this. But what we see in the life of this. But what we see in the life of Jesus who clearly was doing everything Jesus who clearly was doing everything Jesus who clearly was doing everything right so to speak, he faced opposition right so to speak, he faced opposition right so to speak, he faced opposition all the time. So the religious leaders all the time. So the religious leaders all the time. So the religious leaders constantly oppressing him. But then you constantly oppressing him. But then you constantly oppressing him. But then you know even his most intimate group we know even his most intimate group we know even his most intimate group we have Judas and I always think of this is have Judas and I always think of this is have Judas and I always think of this is so painful with Judas because even the so painful with Judas because even the so painful with Judas because even the method of betrayal was a kiss.

method of betrayal was a kiss. method of betrayal was a kiss. >> A kiss. This is the most intimate of >> A kiss. This is the most intimate of >> A kiss. This is the most intimate of gestures and it was completely devoid of gestures and it was completely devoid of gestures and it was completely devoid of affection. affection. affection. A and that had to be painful. This is A and that had to be painful. This is A and that had to be painful. This is someone Jesus had let into his inner someone Jesus had let into his inner someone Jesus had let into his inner circle. He had just offered communion, circle. He had just offered communion, circle. He had just offered communion, you know, the last supper knowing that you know, the last supper knowing that you know, the last supper knowing that he was going to betray him. But then all he was going to betray him. But then all he was going to betray him. But then all the 11, it says all of them abandoned the 11, it says all of them abandoned the 11, it says all of them abandoned him in this moment. So he was left alone him in this moment. So he was left alone him in this moment. So he was left alone in a lot of ways. And yet he kept coming in a lot of ways. And yet he kept coming in a lot of ways. And yet he kept coming back. And I I love when he um is back. And I I love when he um is back. And I I love when he um is speaking to the women at the tomb. He speaking to the women at the tomb. He speaking to the women at the tomb. He says, "Go tell my disciples and Peter." says, "Go tell my disciples and Peter." says, "Go tell my disciples and Peter." It's this reaching out to the one he It's this reaching out to the one he It's this reaching out to the one he knew probably felt the weight of his knew probably felt the weight of his knew probably felt the weight of his betrayal. "Oh no, Jesus, I'll never deny betrayal. "Oh no, Jesus, I'll never deny betrayal. "Oh no, Jesus, I'll never deny you." And he's like, "You're going to you." And he's like, "You're going to you." And he's like, "You're going to deny me three times." And then it's deny me three times." And then it's deny me three times." And then it's like, "And Peter, make sure Peter knows like, "And Peter, make sure Peter knows like, "And Peter, make sure Peter knows he's still mine." And so he demonstrated he's still mine." And so he demonstrated he's still mine." And so he demonstrated this love for his people that did not this love for his people that did not this love for his people that did not waver even when their faith did. And I waver even when their faith did. And I waver even when their faith did. And I think it's such an example for us to think it's such an example for us to think it's such an example for us to follow that yeah, people are actually follow that yeah, people are actually follow that yeah, people are actually going to really hurt us in the church at going to really hurt us in the church at going to really hurt us in the church at times, but if we follow the way of times, but if we follow the way of times, but if we follow the way of Christ, we're going to keep extending Christ, we're going to keep extending Christ, we're going to keep extending that grace as he did to us in so many that grace as he did to us in so many that grace as he did to us in so many ways. And we will all do that to one ways. And we will all do that to one ways. And we will all do that to one another. Um, let me ask you this another. Um, let me ask you this another. Um, let me ask you this question.

question. question. when you've experienced church hurt in when you've experienced church hurt in when you've experienced church hurt in different ways, and this could be for different ways, and this could be for different ways, and this could be for either of you in different ways. How either of you in different ways. How either of you in different ways. How have you seen healing come? Yeah. I have you seen healing come? Yeah. I have you seen healing come? Yeah. I mean, one thing I love, um Jackie Hill mean, one thing I love, um Jackie Hill mean, one thing I love, um Jackie Hill Perry, a friend of all of ours said, she Perry, a friend of all of ours said, she Perry, a friend of all of ours said, she said, "Do you know what God used to heal said, "Do you know what God used to heal said, "Do you know what God used to heal my church hurt?" The church. That's my church hurt?" The church. That's my church hurt?" The church. That's exactly what I exactly what I exactly what I >> always love that. I think of that so >> always love that. I think of that so >> always love that. I think of that so much. You know, it's like, "Oh, the very much. You know, it's like, "Oh, the very much. You know, it's like, "Oh, the very thing that felt like it hurt me is the thing that felt like it hurt me is the thing that felt like it hurt me is the very thing that healed me." So, how if very thing that healed me." So, how if very thing that healed me." So, how if someone right now is in that place, you someone right now is in that place, you someone right now is in that place, you know, I was talking to a friend recently know, I was talking to a friend recently know, I was talking to a friend recently and some things had gone on in her and some things had gone on in her and some things had gone on in her church and she said, "I just don't want church and she said, "I just don't want church and she said, "I just don't want to go to church right now." to go to church right now." to go to church right now." >> Um, what encouragement maybe would you >> Um, what encouragement maybe would you >> Um, what encouragement maybe would you give her to how do we how do we find give her to how do we how do we find give her to how do we how do we find healing? How do we how do we walk healing? How do we how do we walk healing? How do we how do we walk through that process? through that process? through that process? >> I do think it's exactly what you said. I >> I do think it's exactly what you said. I >> I do think it's exactly what you said. I think the people of God help heal the think the people of God help heal the think the people of God help heal the people of God. And there's something people of God. And there's something people of God. And there's something that happens in corporate worship when that happens in corporate worship when that happens in corporate worship when we gather together that is meant to we gather together that is meant to we gather together that is meant to happen. We're meant to be able to look happen. We're meant to be able to look happen. We're meant to be able to look around. My I had an Old Testament around. My I had an Old Testament around. My I had an Old Testament professor and in our class on the professor and in our class on the professor and in our class on the Psalms, he would say, "This is what Psalms, he would say, "This is what Psalms, he would say, "This is what happened when they corporately sang the happened when they corporately sang the happened when they corporately sang the Psalms together as God's people." is Psalms together as God's people." is Psalms together as God's people." is they would because the Psalms convey they would because the Psalms convey they would because the Psalms convey such a variety of experiences and such a variety of experiences and such a variety of experiences and emotions and circumstances and what they emotions and circumstances and what they emotions and circumstances and what they could do is stand there and maybe they could do is stand there and maybe they could do is stand there and maybe they were not in a situation of despair or were not in a situation of despair or were not in a situation of despair or lament. Maybe they were not crying out lament. Maybe they were not crying out lament. Maybe they were not crying out Psalm 44, you know, why are you cast

Psalm 44, you know, why are you cast Psalm 44, you know, why are you cast down, oh my soul, you know, put your down, oh my soul, you know, put your down, oh my soul, you know, put your hope in God like this crying out to be hope in God like this crying out to be hope in God like this crying out to be able to trust in God again. Maybe they able to trust in God again. Maybe they able to trust in God again. Maybe they were more in is it Psalm 46 that's like were more in is it Psalm 46 that's like were more in is it Psalm 46 that's like you are my refuge and my strength. But you are my refuge and my strength. But you are my refuge and my strength. But they could stand there and they could they could stand there and they could they could stand there and they could look at their friend who's crying out in look at their friend who's crying out in look at their friend who's crying out in desperation and they could sing the desperation and they could sing the desperation and they could sing the psalm of why are you cast down, oh my psalm of why are you cast down, oh my psalm of why are you cast down, oh my soul, for that person. And then the soul, for that person. And then the soul, for that person. And then the person who's cast down could cry out and person who's cast down could cry out and person who's cast down could cry out and sing. They could look at their friend sing. They could look at their friend sing. They could look at their friend who was walking in strength and and and who was walking in strength and and and who was walking in strength and and and healing and victory and they could sing, healing and victory and they could sing, healing and victory and they could sing, you know, you are my refuge and my rock you know, you are my refuge and my rock you know, you are my refuge and my rock and my strength. You know, in you know, and my strength. You know, in you know, and my strength. You know, in you know, who shall I fear? Um whom shall I fear? who shall I fear? Um whom shall I fear? who shall I fear? Um whom shall I fear? I was getting my prepositions all mixed I was getting my prepositions all mixed I was getting my prepositions all mixed up there. Whom shall I fear? Um but up there. Whom shall I fear? Um but up there. Whom shall I fear? Um but we can, you know, we have to know what we can, you know, we have to know what we can, you know, we have to know what other people are walking through in other people are walking through in other people are walking through in order to do that. And so when we're order to do that. And so when we're order to do that. And so when we're doing life together, we actually can doing life together, we actually can doing life together, we actually can sing on behalf of those around us. And I sing on behalf of those around us. And I sing on behalf of those around us. And I have a friend that we talk about right have a friend that we talk about right have a friend that we talk about right now like I hold hope for each other.

now like I hold hope for each other. now like I hold hope for each other. Like when the other one cannot hope, I Like when the other one cannot hope, I Like when the other one cannot hope, I mean, we'll text each other, I'm holding mean, we'll text each other, I'm holding mean, we'll text each other, I'm holding hope for you. Um because because I think hope for you. Um because because I think hope for you. Um because because I think that's what the the people of God are that's what the the people of God are that's what the the people of God are supposed to do. Megan, what would you supposed to do. Megan, what would you supposed to do. Megan, what would you say? say? say? >> Yeah, I think that's so good. And I >> Yeah, I think that's so good. And I >> Yeah, I think that's so good. And I think and in another aspect like our think and in another aspect like our think and in another aspect like our praying for one another, you know, the praying for one another, you know, the praying for one another, you know, the church is where we're praying for each church is where we're praying for each church is where we're praying for each other and we're, you know, even just the other and we're, you know, even just the other and we're, you know, even just the words of the Lord's prayer, you know, words of the Lord's prayer, you know, words of the Lord's prayer, you know, lead us not into temptation and deliver lead us not into temptation and deliver lead us not into temptation and deliver us from the evil one. And we're us from the evil one. And we're us from the evil one. And we're together, Lord, we are about to fall together, Lord, we are about to fall together, Lord, we are about to fall into sin in so many different ways, each into sin in so many different ways, each into sin in so many different ways, each one of us. And but but we're crying out one of us. And but but we're crying out one of us. And but but we're crying out to the Lord together. We need help not to the Lord together. We need help not to the Lord together. We need help not to sin against each other even. And we to sin against each other even. And we to sin against each other even. And we need help to resist the evil one and to need help to resist the evil one and to need help to resist the evil one and to to to glorify you and to do your will. to to glorify you and to do your will. to to glorify you and to do your will. And and so when even when we come And and so when even when we come And and so when even when we come together, like you said, in singing, together, like you said, in singing, together, like you said, in singing, when we come together in prayer, when we when we come together in prayer, when we when we come together in prayer, when we sit together under God's word, when the sit together under God's word, when the sit together under God's word, when the pastor is preaching God's word or God's pastor is preaching God's word or God's pastor is preaching God's word or God's word is read out, then it falls on all word is read out, then it falls on all word is read out, then it falls on all of us. And then we're all held to see of us. And then we're all held to see of us. And then we're all held to see the loveliness of Christ, we're held to the loveliness of Christ, we're held to the loveliness of Christ, we're held to see our sin, we're held to see the see our sin, we're held to see the see our sin, we're held to see the remedy for our sin all together. and and remedy for our sin all together. and and remedy for our sin all together. and and and then the Lord sanctifies us in that.

and then the Lord sanctifies us in that. and then the Lord sanctifies us in that. >> Is there ever a time that it is okay to >> Is there ever a time that it is okay to >> Is there ever a time that it is okay to leave a church when you've been hurt? leave a church when you've been hurt? leave a church when you've been hurt? And if so, how do we discern that? Okay, And if so, how do we discern that? Okay, And if so, how do we discern that? Okay, so I'm going to read um from Acts 15. so I'm going to read um from Acts 15. so I'm going to read um from Acts 15. Um, and in Acts 15 we read, "Now Um, and in Acts 15 we read, "Now Um, and in Acts 15 we read, "Now Barnabas wanted to take with them John Barnabas wanted to take with them John Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark, but Paul thought best not called Mark, but Paul thought best not called Mark, but Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn to take with them one who had withdrawn to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Panilia and had not gone from them in Panilia and had not gone from them in Panilia and had not gone with them to the work. And there arose with them to the work. And there arose with them to the work. And there arose sharp disagreement. So they separated sharp disagreement. So they separated sharp disagreement. So they separated from each other." So you have Barnabas from each other." So you have Barnabas from each other." So you have Barnabas on one side who says, "Let's take John on one side who says, "Let's take John on one side who says, "Let's take John Mark with us." You have Paul on the Mark with us." You have Paul on the Mark with us." You have Paul on the other side who says actually Dmark has other side who says actually Dmark has other side who says actually Dmark has kind of betrayed the cause of Christ kind of betrayed the cause of Christ kind of betrayed the cause of Christ here. He he really didn't maybe it's one here. He he really didn't maybe it's one here. He he really didn't maybe it's one of those sins of omission. He didn't do of those sins of omission. He didn't do of those sins of omission. He didn't do what we asked him to do or what we were what we asked him to do or what we were what we asked him to do or what we were supposed to do. Didn't seem wholehearted supposed to do. Didn't seem wholehearted supposed to do. Didn't seem wholehearted about the faith. I don't think we should about the faith. I don't think we should about the faith. I don't think we should take him. And so Barnabas and Paul are take him. And so Barnabas and Paul are take him. And so Barnabas and Paul are disagreeing. The scripture doesn't even disagreeing. The scripture doesn't even disagreeing. The scripture doesn't even tell us really who was right. The tell us really who was right. The tell us really who was right. The scripture makes no judgment. This is a scripture makes no judgment. This is a scripture makes no judgment. This is a narrative passage of scripture and narrative passage of scripture and narrative passage of scripture and they're just telling us what happened.

they're just telling us what happened. they're just telling us what happened. Um so but in the end they went separate Um so but in the end they went separate Um so but in the end they went separate ways. They didn't go together. Um ways. They didn't go together. Um ways. They didn't go together. Um Barnabas went one way and Paul went the Barnabas went one way and Paul went the Barnabas went one way and Paul went the other way. And I think this can be again other way. And I think this can be again other way. And I think this can be again it's a narrative passage of scripture. it's a narrative passage of scripture. it's a narrative passage of scripture. There's not um you know sort of didactic There's not um you know sort of didactic There's not um you know sort of didactic lessons tied up in a neat bow at the lessons tied up in a neat bow at the lessons tied up in a neat bow at the end. But I think this passage can help end. But I think this passage can help end. But I think this passage can help us to think through this issue. I think us to think through this issue. I think us to think through this issue. I think first of all it acknowledges that first of all it acknowledges that first of all it acknowledges that sometimes there are really sharp sometimes there are really sharp sometimes there are really sharp disagreements in the church. Sometimes disagreements in the church. Sometimes disagreements in the church. Sometimes they're even about things that it's not they're even about things that it's not they're even about things that it's not totally clear. We can't point to which totally clear. We can't point to which totally clear. We can't point to which number commandment John Mark was number commandment John Mark was number commandment John Mark was breaking and what should happen here. breaking and what should happen here. breaking and what should happen here. But there there was a a genuine But there there was a a genuine But there there was a a genuine disagreement even of conviction. disagreement even of conviction. disagreement even of conviction. Barnabas felt the Lord would not have Barnabas felt the Lord would not have Barnabas felt the Lord would not have them do this. Paul felt the Lord would them do this. Paul felt the Lord would them do this. Paul felt the Lord would help have them do this. So I think we help have them do this. So I think we help have them do this. So I think we see that there can be and the scripture see that there can be and the scripture see that there can be and the scripture calls it a sharp disagreement. So it I calls it a sharp disagreement. So it I calls it a sharp disagreement. So it I mean it was really heartfelt mean it was really heartfelt mean it was really heartfelt >> and the result of it was that they went >> and the result of it was that they went >> and the result of it was that they went separate ways and the separate ways and the separate ways and the >> I don't know that we can tell from >> I don't know that we can tell from >> I don't know that we can tell from scripture you know the scriptur is not scripture you know the scriptur is not scripture you know the scriptur is not saying that's ideal. The scriptur is saying that's ideal. The scriptur is saying that's ideal. The scriptur is also not saying it's forbidden either also not saying it's forbidden either also not saying it's forbidden either and we can see later um later in and we can see later um later in and we can see later um later in scripture then John Mark and Paul are scripture then John Mark and Paul are scripture then John Mark and Paul are reconciled. they come back around and reconciled. they come back around and reconciled. they come back around and Paul says how useful he's been and so Paul says how useful he's been and so Paul says how useful he's been and so that situation is repaired but for the that situation is repaired but for the that situation is repaired but for the time for the sake of the ministry it time for the sake of the ministry it time for the sake of the ministry it does seem like it was the best of the does seem like it was the best of the does seem like it was the best of the options for them to part ways options for them to part ways options for them to part ways >> and it didn't discredit either of them >> and it didn't discredit either of them >> and it didn't discredit either of them from ministry did it

from ministry did it from ministry did it >> right yeah the elders didn't get >> right yeah the elders didn't get >> right yeah the elders didn't get together and go well since you left then together and go well since you left then together and go well since you left then you can't be in the ministry anymore so you can't be in the ministry anymore so you can't be in the ministry anymore so I think on the strength of that you know I think on the strength of that you know I think on the strength of that you know we can learn something from this passage we can learn something from this passage we can learn something from this passage and I do think so so this brings me to I and I do think so so this brings me to I and I do think so so this brings me to I do think that sometimes there are times do think that sometimes there are times do think that sometimes there are times when you have a a you cannot continue in when you have a a you cannot continue in when you have a a you cannot continue in ministry with someone for some reason or ministry with someone for some reason or ministry with someone for some reason or other and that that is okay to leave. other and that that is okay to leave. other and that that is okay to leave. Now, how do you decide when that is? Now, how do you decide when that is? Now, how do you decide when that is? >> Well, I think you need real life people >> Well, I think you need real life people >> Well, I think you need real life people in your real life life to tell you when in your real life life to tell you when in your real life life to tell you when that is. And so, I can't stress enough that is. And so, I can't stress enough that is. And so, I can't stress enough the importance of having mature the importance of having mature the importance of having mature Christian friends. Usually that's going Christian friends. Usually that's going Christian friends. Usually that's going to be somebody in a different church who to be somebody in a different church who to be somebody in a different church who can kind of look at your situation with can kind of look at your situation with can kind of look at your situation with a little bit more objective eyes. I mean a little bit more objective eyes. I mean a little bit more objective eyes. I mean it depending on what it is, you know, it it depending on what it is, you know, it it depending on what it is, you know, it may be sort of a minor disagreement with may be sort of a minor disagreement with may be sort of a minor disagreement with somebody and there may be somebody in somebody and there may be somebody in somebody and there may be somebody in your church who can help you think your church who can help you think your church who can help you think through it, but it it's probably going through it, but it it's probably going through it, but it it's probably going to be somebody who's not in your church to be somebody who's not in your church to be somebody who's not in your church who is a mature Christian who can say to who is a mature Christian who can say to who is a mature Christian who can say to you, "Okay, I know you, Megan. I know you, "Okay, I know you, Megan. I know you, "Okay, I know you, Megan. I know your church. I I can see what's going on your church. I I can see what's going on your church. I I can see what's going on here and this is my counsel to you." And here and this is my counsel to you." And here and this is my counsel to you." And the scripture says in a multitude of the scripture says in a multitude of the scripture says in a multitude of counselors there's wisdom. And so as counselors there's wisdom. And so as counselors there's wisdom. And so as more than one wise and godly person to more than one wise and godly person to more than one wise and godly person to help you pray through and think through help you pray through and think through help you pray through and think through that. Um that. Um that. Um >> so I think some some of the legitimate >> so I think some some of the legitimate >> so I think some some of the legitimate reasons for leaving a church are that reasons for leaving a church are that reasons for leaving a church are that it's unsafe for some reason. You know it's unsafe for some reason. You know it's unsafe for some reason. You know that that there is sin that is happening

that that there is sin that is happening that that there is sin that is happening there that is not safe for people to be there that is not safe for people to be there that is not safe for people to be around and you need to leave. And um I around and you need to leave. And um I around and you need to leave. And um I think that's pretty clear in scripture think that's pretty clear in scripture think that's pretty clear in scripture that we have a sixth commandment that we have a sixth commandment that we have a sixth commandment responsibility to protect our own life responsibility to protect our own life responsibility to protect our own life and the life of others and to protect and the life of others and to protect and the life of others and to protect our you know safety. And so I think our you know safety. And so I think our you know safety. And so I think that's a reason that you would leave. I that's a reason that you would leave. I that's a reason that you would leave. I think if there is teaching in your think if there is teaching in your think if there is teaching in your church that is not in accord with church that is not in accord with church that is not in accord with scripture and you have done you know scripture and you have done you know scripture and you have done you know it's not a slip of the tongue of the it's not a slip of the tongue of the it's not a slip of the tongue of the pastor on one Sunday. You know, I mean, pastor on one Sunday. You know, I mean, pastor on one Sunday. You know, I mean, we all on this podcast, we've all said we all on this podcast, we've all said we all on this podcast, we've all said things that we said, "Oh, that wasn't things that we said, "Oh, that wasn't things that we said, "Oh, that wasn't exactly how I would have phrased that. exactly how I would have phrased that. exactly how I would have phrased that. If I could have plotted that out." If I could have plotted that out." If I could have plotted that out." >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Especially on difficult topics like >> Especially on difficult topics like >> Especially on difficult topics like trinitary, you know, you're like, "Oh, trinitary, you know, you're like, "Oh, trinitary, you know, you're like, "Oh, >> is it right to say it that way?" And >> is it right to say it that way?" And >> is it right to say it that way?" And you're like, "Okay, he's not a heretic you're like, "Okay, he's not a heretic you're like, "Okay, he's not a heretic because he, you know, got the because he, you know, got the because he, you know, got the incarnation a little bit messed up on a incarnation a little bit messed up on a incarnation a little bit messed up on a Sunday." Yeah. Sunday." Yeah. Sunday." Yeah. >> Yeah. But if your church is the teaching >> Yeah. But if your church is the teaching >> Yeah. But if your church is the teaching of your church is on a course that is of your church is on a course that is of your church is on a course that is not biblical then you need to go not biblical then you need to go not biblical then you need to go somewhere where it is biblical. And so somewhere where it is biblical. And so somewhere where it is biblical. And so and I also think and the third category and I also think and the third category and I also think and the third category that I would give and I'm sure that that I would give and I'm sure that that I would give and I'm sure that there are others but um the third there are others but um the third there are others but um the third category I would give would be just your category I would give would be just your category I would give would be just your own convictions. I mean, as we grow and own convictions. I mean, as we grow and own convictions. I mean, as we grow and mature in the Christian faith, you may mature in the Christian faith, you may mature in the Christian faith, you may have thought one way about baptism have thought one way about baptism have thought one way about baptism earlier in your life and now you think earlier in your life and now you think earlier in your life and now you think something different or you may have something different or you may have something different or you may have thought one way, you know, about, you thought one way, you know, about, you thought one way, you know, about, you know, how the Lord's table should be know, how the Lord's table should be know, how the Lord's table should be presented and, you know, whatever. I presented and, you know, whatever. I presented and, you know, whatever. I mean, we just we do change in our mean, we just we do change in our mean, we just we do change in our convictions as well. And I think as much convictions as well. And I think as much convictions as well. And I think as much as possible, you want to be at a church

as possible, you want to be at a church as possible, you want to be at a church that you know is is aligned with your that you know is is aligned with your that you know is is aligned with your conviction so that you can conviction so that you can conviction so that you can wholeheartedly participate in that wholeheartedly participate in that wholeheartedly participate in that ministry. And so, um, you may leave not ministry. And so, um, you may leave not ministry. And so, um, you may leave not because of a, a, you know, sort of because of a, a, you know, sort of because of a, a, you know, sort of personal disagreement, but just, hey, personal disagreement, but just, hey, personal disagreement, but just, hey, this is not where my convictions are this is not where my convictions are this is not where my convictions are anymore. anymore. anymore. >> That's a really good point because I >> That's a really good point because I >> That's a really good point because I think we often leave over what are think we often leave over what are think we often leave over what are called disputable matters. Yeah. Whereas called disputable matters. Yeah. Whereas called disputable matters. Yeah. Whereas then we have this passage that says the then we have this passage that says the then we have this passage that says the acts of the sinful nature are obvious, acts of the sinful nature are obvious, acts of the sinful nature are obvious, you know, and so I think that is a you know, and so I think that is a you know, and so I think that is a helpful thing to discern like what's a helpful thing to discern like what's a helpful thing to discern like what's a disputable matter. Now, that still might disputable matter. Now, that still might disputable matter. Now, that still might be a reason for us not to be in a be a reason for us not to be in a be a reason for us not to be in a particular church. That's fine. But when particular church. That's fine. But when particular church. That's fine. But when it gets to like, you know, the acts of it gets to like, you know, the acts of it gets to like, you know, the acts of the sinful nature are obvious. There are the sinful nature are obvious. There are the sinful nature are obvious. There are certain churches I think we would all certain churches I think we would all certain churches I think we would all say, okay, they're actually celebrating say, okay, they're actually celebrating say, okay, they're actually celebrating sin and that I I would say is a wrong sin and that I I would say is a wrong sin and that I I would say is a wrong use of the pulpit. You know, I if we're use of the pulpit. You know, I if we're use of the pulpit. You know, I if we're saying certain behaviors are okay. And I saying certain behaviors are okay. And I saying certain behaviors are okay. And I actually think that's not that's a woof. actually think that's not that's a woof. actually think that's not that's a woof. >> You know, looking like, oh, I'm going to >> You know, looking like, oh, I'm going to >> You know, looking like, oh, I'm going to shepherd in this way, but that can cause shepherd in this way, but that can cause shepherd in this way, but that can cause a lot of harm actually. And so there are a lot of harm actually. And so there are a lot of harm actually. And so there are definite reasons like that. I you know I definite reasons like that. I you know I definite reasons like that. I you know I agree but a lot of these things are on agree but a lot of these things are on agree but a lot of these things are on these disputable matters and um you know these disputable matters and um you know these disputable matters and um you know maybe we don't like how small groups are maybe we don't like how small groups are maybe we don't like how small groups are set up and we feel like it oversees us set up and we feel like it oversees us set up and we feel like it oversees us and things like that that could be to and things like that that could be to and things like that that could be to work through because I think of the two work through because I think of the two work through because I think of the two women in Philippians and I would say women in Philippians and I would say women in Philippians and I would say their names but I can only pronounce one their names but I can only pronounce one their names but I can only pronounce one of them so I'm just going to say the two of them so I'm just going to say the two of them so I'm just going to say the two women in Philippians. Um Paul Paul women in Philippians. Um Paul Paul women in Philippians. Um Paul Paul actually says, "Y'all need to agree in actually says, "Y'all need to agree in actually says, "Y'all need to agree in the Lord." And you know, it's nice he's

the Lord." And you know, it's nice he's the Lord." And you know, it's nice he's outside the church and sometimes I think outside the church and sometimes I think outside the church and sometimes I think someone can look into our situation and someone can look into our situation and someone can look into our situation and say, "Hey, you guys need to work that say, "Hey, you guys need to work that say, "Hey, you guys need to work that out. Y'all can work that out. You're out. Y'all can work that out. You're out. Y'all can work that out. You're both you, you know, and he he dignifies both you, you know, and he he dignifies both you, you know, and he he dignifies both of them. He says they've labored both of them. He says they've labored both of them. He says they've labored side by side with me in the gospel. You side by side with me in the gospel. You side by side with me in the gospel. You he loves these women and he's like, "Get he loves these women and he's like, "Get he loves these women and he's like, "Get along." Yeah. No, that's so good. So, along." Yeah. No, that's so good. So, along." Yeah. No, that's so good. So, let me ask you then, if that's the let me ask you then, if that's the let me ask you then, if that's the nature of our hurt, that if it's with nature of our hurt, that if it's with nature of our hurt, that if it's with somebody else in the church and we just somebody else in the church and we just somebody else in the church and we just have been in a disagreement and we don't have been in a disagreement and we don't have been in a disagreement and we don't like the way they've done things and like the way they've done things and like the way they've done things and we're just we're just, you know, that's we're just we're just, you know, that's we're just we're just, you know, that's the nature of our hurt, then how can we the nature of our hurt, then how can we the nature of our hurt, then how can we pray for um ourselves in that situation pray for um ourselves in that situation pray for um ourselves in that situation and how how can we pray for them in that and how how can we pray for them in that and how how can we pray for them in that situation? Um so, again, we're just situation? Um so, again, we're just situation? Um so, again, we're just acknowledging there are different acknowledging there are different acknowledging there are different there's a whole gamut of types of church there's a whole gamut of types of church there's a whole gamut of types of church hurt. So, we're talking about this where hurt. So, we're talking about this where hurt. So, we're talking about this where it's like personto person, you and it's like personto person, you and it's like personto person, you and somebody else in the church. there's not somebody else in the church. there's not somebody else in the church. there's not really a power dynamic involved. Um, how really a power dynamic involved. Um, how really a power dynamic involved. Um, how do you pray for that person? do you pray for that person? do you pray for that person? >> Okay, so one of my secret things is I >> Okay, so one of my secret things is I >> Okay, so one of my secret things is I envision what people would be like in envision what people would be like in envision what people would be like in heaven and then I pray for them to that heaven and then I pray for them to that heaven and then I pray for them to that end, you know, and like somebody who's a end, you know, and like somebody who's a end, you know, and like somebody who's a really like strong personality. Well, really like strong personality. Well, really like strong personality. Well, that can really rub you the wrong way, that can really rub you the wrong way, that can really rub you the wrong way, right? But I imagine that in heaven like right? But I imagine that in heaven like right? But I imagine that in heaven like they're going to be right at the front they're going to be right at the front they're going to be right at the front worshiping the Lord and just really, you worshiping the Lord and just really, you worshiping the Lord and just really, you know, doing great things for the Lord.

know, doing great things for the Lord. know, doing great things for the Lord. And so I like pray for that sanctified And so I like pray for that sanctified And so I like pray for that sanctified version of the thing that frustrates me version of the thing that frustrates me version of the thing that frustrates me or the person who is, you know, always or the person who is, you know, always or the person who is, you know, always flaking out on something and I can't flaking out on something and I can't flaking out on something and I can't depend on them and they are never where depend on them and they are never where depend on them and they are never where they're supposed to be, you know, and I they're supposed to be, you know, and I they're supposed to be, you know, and I think, well, but that's because they're think, well, but that's because they're think, well, but that's because they're so distracted with all these needs and so distracted with all these needs and so distracted with all these needs and they're like really at heart they're a they're like really at heart they're a they're like really at heart they're a loving person. And so I pray for them to loving person. And so I pray for them to loving person. And so I pray for them to be like the sanctified version of what be like the sanctified version of what be like the sanctified version of what the thing is that bothers me. And if I the thing is that bothers me. And if I the thing is that bothers me. And if I can envision them as like the the best can envision them as like the the best can envision them as like the the best version of the thing that bugs me, then version of the thing that bugs me, then version of the thing that bugs me, then it helps me to know how to pray for it helps me to know how to pray for it helps me to know how to pray for them. them. them. >> This is just one reason it's so good to >> This is just one reason it's so good to >> This is just one reason it's so good to be a friend of Megan Hills, right? I be a friend of Megan Hills, right? I be a friend of Megan Hills, right? I mean that just like is so encouraging to mean that just like is so encouraging to mean that just like is so encouraging to know that you know that you would pray know that you know that you would pray know that you know that you would pray for me in that way and that you would for me in that way and that you would for me in that way and that you would pray for people that have hurt you and pray for people that have hurt you and pray for people that have hurt you and that well maybe that's maybe that's me that well maybe that's maybe that's me that well maybe that's maybe that's me but um but um but um but just like the fact that you would but just like the fact that you would but just like the fact that you would pray for people in that way and I think pray for people in that way and I think pray for people in that way and I think even going back to what you said at the even going back to what you said at the even going back to what you said at the beginning that we would pray the same beginning that we would pray the same beginning that we would pray the same thing for the church as a whole that we thing for the church as a whole that we thing for the church as a whole that we would pray that she would be everything would pray that she would be everything would pray that she would be everything you know this washed and beautiful bride you know this washed and beautiful bride you know this washed and beautiful bride of Christ because I think so often about of Christ because I think so often about of Christ because I think so often about I think so often that Jesus is betrothed I think so often that Jesus is betrothed I think so often that Jesus is betrothed to a a not attractive, not kind, um not to a a not attractive, not kind, um not to a a not attractive, not kind, um not patient, not all the things like that's patient, not all the things like that's patient, not all the things like that's that's who he's betrothed to. And yet that's who he's betrothed to. And yet that's who he's betrothed to. And yet one day she's going to be this one day she's going to be this one day she's going to be this incredibly beautiful inside and out incredibly beautiful inside and out incredibly beautiful inside and out bride. Um so I like that praying for bride. Um so I like that praying for bride. Um so I like that praying for what we all um for what we all will be.

what we all um for what we all will be. what we all um for what we all will be. And I I think on that prayer thing too, And I I think on that prayer thing too, And I I think on that prayer thing too, just to remember if we've been hurt by just to remember if we've been hurt by just to remember if we've been hurt by someone's sin, you know, I think of like someone's sin, you know, I think of like someone's sin, you know, I think of like something like gossip or something like something like gossip or something like something like gossip or something like that. Look, that. Look, that. Look, um it's never going to go well for that um it's never going to go well for that um it's never going to go well for that person, you know, that's not they're person, you know, that's not they're person, you know, that's not they're getting a false intimacy with others by getting a false intimacy with others by getting a false intimacy with others by their gossip or whatever they're doing. their gossip or whatever they're doing. their gossip or whatever they're doing. So really praying for their good, which So really praying for their good, which So really praying for their good, which is that they would come to a repentance is that they would come to a repentance is that they would come to a repentance heart on some things. Like I so often heart on some things. Like I so often heart on some things. Like I so often just want to sit in judgment. Well, if just want to sit in judgment. Well, if just want to sit in judgment. Well, if she keeps acting like that, it's going she keeps acting like that, it's going she keeps acting like that, it's going to be, you know, she's going to keep to be, you know, she's going to keep to be, you know, she's going to keep offending everybody or whatever. Rather offending everybody or whatever. Rather offending everybody or whatever. Rather than do than do than do the work of prayer the work of prayer the work of prayer >> and like I just realized, oh, I might >> and like I just realized, oh, I might >> and like I just realized, oh, I might call one of you and say, "Hey, I this, call one of you and say, "Hey, I this, call one of you and say, "Hey, I this, you know, what can you believe she does you know, what can you believe she does you know, what can you believe she does this or whatever?" which is just this or whatever?" which is just this or whatever?" which is just judgment rather than you know we all judgment rather than you know we all judgment rather than you know we all have places that we are weak and that have places that we are weak and that have places that we are weak and that sympathetic yeah you know Lord will you sympathetic yeah you know Lord will you sympathetic yeah you know Lord will you change her in this I don't know what the change her in this I don't know what the change her in this I don't know what the best method would be for her life but best method would be for her life but best method would be for her life but that she would find freedom in this area that she would find freedom in this area that she would find freedom in this area um I I think that's a we can do that um I I think that's a we can do that um I I think that's a we can do that with humility and not with judgment it with humility and not with judgment it with humility and not with judgment it can sound like we're judging someone can sound like we're judging someone can sound like we're judging someone else but I do think there's a real else but I do think there's a real else but I do think there's a real humility to say um like I know I need to humility to say um like I know I need to humility to say um like I know I need to be changed but it's okay to say too I be changed but it's okay to say too I be changed but it's okay to say too I really see this pattern in this person's really see this pattern in this person's really see this pattern in this person's life and to just prayerfully ask that life and to just prayerfully ask that life and to just prayerfully ask that the Lord would change it. And sometimes the Lord would change it. And sometimes the Lord would change it. And sometimes if we've been the one directly hurt, if we've been the one directly hurt, if we've been the one directly hurt, we're not necessarily the best one to we're not necessarily the best one to we're not necessarily the best one to confront that. Um sometimes we might be

confront that. Um sometimes we might be confront that. Um sometimes we might be called to, but um you know, if it called to, but um you know, if it called to, but um you know, if it depends on where we are in that depends on where we are in that depends on where we are in that situation, but but I do think really situation, but but I do think really situation, but but I do think really praying for change, the Lord, the Holy praying for change, the Lord, the Holy praying for change, the Lord, the Holy Spirit can do that. I think we can buy Spirit can do that. I think we can buy Spirit can do that. I think we can buy into the world's theories a little too into the world's theories a little too into the world's theories a little too much of, oh, people are going to be who much of, oh, people are going to be who much of, oh, people are going to be who they are, they are, they are, >> you know? And I'm like, no, we I hope >> you know? And I'm like, no, we I hope >> you know? And I'm like, no, we I hope not. I hope I'm in 10 years less of the not. I hope I'm in 10 years less of the not. I hope I'm in 10 years less of the bad things in my character and and being bad things in my character and and being bad things in my character and and being changed into the likeness of Christ changed into the likeness of Christ changed into the likeness of Christ more. So, I think we can pray for hope more. So, I think we can pray for hope more. So, I think we can pray for hope that situations and relationships would that situations and relationships would that situations and relationships would be restored um as as we walk together in be restored um as as we walk together in be restored um as as we walk together in in these things. in these things. in these things. >> For sure. Well, I want to ask a question >> For sure. Well, I want to ask a question >> For sure. Well, I want to ask a question about kind of the other side of the about kind of the other side of the about kind of the other side of the spectrum as we're looking at really spectrum as we're looking at really spectrum as we're looking at really grievous um grievously being sinned grievous um grievously being sinned grievous um grievously being sinned against or when there's been abuse in against or when there's been abuse in against or when there's been abuse in the church, when there's been, you know, the church, when there's been, you know, the church, when there's been, you know, power is involved in the hurt. Um, and power is involved in the hurt. Um, and power is involved in the hurt. Um, and there is so much in the Psalms about there is so much in the Psalms about there is so much in the Psalms about vindication and the shity of God's vindication and the shity of God's vindication and the shity of God's justice even when it's delayed. And so justice even when it's delayed. And so justice even when it's delayed. And so for people who have walked in the the for people who have walked in the the for people who have walked in the the area of church hurt that touches on area of church hurt that touches on area of church hurt that touches on abuse and sin, how do those verses, how abuse and sin, how do those verses, how abuse and sin, how do those verses, how do they comfort us and how do they do they comfort us and how do they do they comfort us and how do they strengthen us and how do they give us strengthen us and how do they give us strengthen us and how do they give us words to pray? So, I love what you said words to pray? So, I love what you said words to pray? So, I love what you said about praying for just other people that about praying for just other people that about praying for just other people that have offended and hurt us, but how do we have offended and hurt us, but how do we have offended and hurt us, but how do we pray for those who have like grievously pray for those who have like grievously pray for those who have like grievously sinned against us?

sinned against us? sinned against us? >> Yeah. I mean, I do think you're right >> Yeah. I mean, I do think you're right >> Yeah. I mean, I do think you're right that the scriptures promise of justice that the scriptures promise of justice that the scriptures promise of justice is so encouraging to us. And, you know, is so encouraging to us. And, you know, is so encouraging to us. And, you know, I think we have the the promise from I think we have the the promise from I think we have the the promise from God's word that every sin is dealt with. God's word that every sin is dealt with. God's word that every sin is dealt with. There is no sin ever committed in the There is no sin ever committed in the There is no sin ever committed in the history of mankind that is not dealt history of mankind that is not dealt history of mankind that is not dealt with. Some of them are punished in with. Some of them are punished in with. Some of them are punished in eternity. Some of them are laid on eternity. Some of them are laid on eternity. Some of them are laid on Christ. And we might not know, you know, Christ. And we might not know, you know, Christ. And we might not know, you know, especially when you're talking about especially when you're talking about especially when you're talking about church hurt, you don't always know. You church hurt, you don't always know. You church hurt, you don't always know. You think, well, this person says they're a think, well, this person says they're a think, well, this person says they're a Christian. They're not acting very Christian. They're not acting very Christian. They're not acting very Christianly, you know, and and we don't Christianly, you know, and and we don't Christianly, you know, and and we don't we don't know. And it's not our job to we don't know. And it's not our job to we don't know. And it's not our job to figure that out. Um, and yet we know, figure that out. Um, and yet we know, figure that out. Um, and yet we know, okay, but every sin that has been sinned okay, but every sin that has been sinned okay, but every sin that has been sinned against me will be dealt with. Either if against me will be dealt with. Either if against me will be dealt with. Either if this person is a believer, then it means this person is a believer, then it means this person is a believer, then it means that their sin has been laid on Christ that their sin has been laid on Christ that their sin has been laid on Christ and Christ has paid for it, or if and Christ has paid for it, or if and Christ has paid for it, or if they're not a believer, then they will they're not a believer, then they will they're not a believer, then they will one day be held account held to account one day be held account held to account one day be held account held to account for it. And it has been really freeing for it. And it has been really freeing for it. And it has been really freeing to me in my own life to go okay Lord you to me in my own life to go okay Lord you to me in my own life to go okay Lord you know but I trust that you are going to know but I trust that you are going to know but I trust that you are going to deal with this and that there will be deal with this and that there will be deal with this and that there will be justice for this thing and I can leave justice for this thing and I can leave justice for this thing and I can leave it to you to know how which is the way it to you to know how which is the way it to you to know how which is the way that you're dealing with it but but I that you're dealing with it but but I that you're dealing with it but but I can trust that you will deal with it can trust that you will deal with it can trust that you will deal with it which doesn't mean you know I mean there which doesn't mean you know I mean there which doesn't mean you know I mean there are avenues for addressing it in this are avenues for addressing it in this are avenues for addressing it in this life and you know there in when it's a life and you know there in when it's a life and you know there in when it's a case of abuse there's the civil case of abuse there's the civil case of abuse there's the civil magistrate when it's some other issue.

magistrate when it's some other issue. magistrate when it's some other issue. There are, you know, you can go to the There are, you know, you can go to the There are, you know, you can go to the church leaders. You can, you know, there church leaders. You can, you know, there church leaders. You can, you know, there are there's Matthew 18. I mean, there's are there's Matthew 18. I mean, there's are there's Matthew 18. I mean, there's there's things that we can do in this there's things that we can do in this there's things that we can do in this life. But ultimately, my hope is Lord, life. But ultimately, my hope is Lord, life. But ultimately, my hope is Lord, you you you bring justice for every sin. you you you bring justice for every sin. you you you bring justice for every sin. And so, you can I trust that you'll deal And so, you can I trust that you'll deal And so, you can I trust that you'll deal with it. with it. with it. >> Well, that's so good. And as we're kind >> Well, that's so good. And as we're kind >> Well, that's so good. And as we're kind of bringing this conversation to the clo of bringing this conversation to the clo of bringing this conversation to the clo to a close, you know, we said at the to a close, you know, we said at the to a close, you know, we said at the beginning that we were hoping that beginning that we were hoping that beginning that we were hoping that whether you are somebody who has been whether you are somebody who has been whether you are somebody who has been hurt by the church or you're walking hurt by the church or you're walking hurt by the church or you're walking with somebody who has been hurt by the with somebody who has been hurt by the with somebody who has been hurt by the church that this would provide some church that this would provide some church that this would provide some maybe practical help and and healing and maybe practical help and and healing and maybe practical help and and healing and just perspective. And so Megan, I'm just just perspective. And so Megan, I'm just just perspective. And so Megan, I'm just so grateful for um just the way you love so grateful for um just the way you love so grateful for um just the way you love the church and the way you've thought the church and the way you've thought the church and the way you've thought about the church and the way you lift about the church and the way you lift about the church and the way you lift our eyes to see the church again. And our eyes to see the church again. And our eyes to see the church again. And you know, we just want to reiterate like you know, we just want to reiterate like you know, we just want to reiterate like there is a spectrum of hurt and there's there is a spectrum of hurt and there's there is a spectrum of hurt and there's no way that we addressed every single no way that we addressed every single no way that we addressed every single piece. And so and so to even stop and piece. And so and so to even stop and piece. And so and so to even stop and think about where your hurt resides and think about where your hurt resides and think about where your hurt resides and if it does reside in the abuse um in the if it does reside in the abuse um in the if it does reside in the abuse um in the abuse realm, then yes, you absolutely abuse realm, then yes, you absolutely abuse realm, then yes, you absolutely need to seek help outside of this. But need to seek help outside of this. But need to seek help outside of this. But we do hope that everybody would be would we do hope that everybody would be would we do hope that everybody would be would have been reminded that um the church is have been reminded that um the church is have been reminded that um the church is God's idea. It is it is what he's coming God's idea. It is it is what he's coming God's idea. It is it is what he's coming back for. It is the church that he loves back for. It is the church that he loves back for. It is the church that he loves and it is the church that he wants his and it is the church that he wants his and it is the church that he wants his people to love. So can we just end with people to love. So can we just end with people to love. So can we just end with some well and then I I'll end this is

some well and then I I'll end this is some well and then I I'll end this is the first ending. The second ending, the first ending. The second ending, the first ending. The second ending, Megan, will be a question I ask you. But Megan, will be a question I ask you. But Megan, will be a question I ask you. But this first ending, can you guys share this first ending, can you guys share this first ending, can you guys share some scriptures that have either helped some scriptures that have either helped some scriptures that have either helped you or somebody that you've been walking you or somebody that you've been walking you or somebody that you've been walking with um through church hurt? with um through church hurt? with um through church hurt? >> I like this. It's like first breakfastes >> I like this. It's like first breakfastes >> I like this. It's like first breakfastes and second breakfast. and second breakfast. and second breakfast. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> First in second. >> First in second. >> First in second. >> Exactly. Thank you. >> Exactly. Thank you. >> Exactly. Thank you. >> Uh so mine would be Psalm 34:18 and I'll >> Uh so mine would be Psalm 34:18 and I'll >> Uh so mine would be Psalm 34:18 and I'll just read it here. The Lord is near to just read it here. The Lord is near to just read it here. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed the brokenhearted and saves the crushed the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. And I think when you're hurt in spirit. And I think when you're hurt in spirit. And I think when you're hurt sometimes you need a little verse. You sometimes you need a little verse. You sometimes you need a little verse. You don't need a whole chapter of the Bible. don't need a whole chapter of the Bible. don't need a whole chapter of the Bible. You just need a little verse. And to You just need a little verse. And to You just need a little verse. And to remember that scripture says that the remember that scripture says that the remember that scripture says that the Lord is near to the brokenhearted and Lord is near to the brokenhearted and Lord is near to the brokenhearted and that he saves the crushed in spirit. that he saves the crushed in spirit. that he saves the crushed in spirit. That we're not invisible to him when That we're not invisible to him when That we're not invisible to him when we're hurt, that he doesn't ignore us, we're hurt, that he doesn't ignore us, we're hurt, that he doesn't ignore us, but in fact and he's not afraid of us or but in fact and he's not afraid of us or but in fact and he's not afraid of us or sort of, oh, let me keep my distance. sort of, oh, let me keep my distance. sort of, oh, let me keep my distance. He's near. He seeks out. He he comes He's near. He seeks out. He he comes He's near. He seeks out. He he comes close to people who are brokenhearted. close to people who are brokenhearted. close to people who are brokenhearted. And it's hopeful, right? He saves the And it's hopeful, right? He saves the And it's hopeful, right? He saves the crushed in spirit. He has good, crushed in spirit. He has good, crushed in spirit. He has good, positive, saving, redeeming purposes positive, saving, redeeming purposes positive, saving, redeeming purposes even for those who are crushed.

even for those who are crushed. even for those who are crushed. >> I love that. Um, and Psalm 34 is the >> I love that. Um, and Psalm 34 is the >> I love that. Um, and Psalm 34 is the verse we're memorizing through saver, if verse we're memorizing through saver, if verse we're memorizing through saver, if anyone needs our newsletter. Um, what anyone needs our newsletter. Um, what anyone needs our newsletter. Um, what one that I know for me was actually one that I know for me was actually one that I know for me was actually really powerful dur during a really really powerful dur during a really really powerful dur during a really painful season was Isaiah 58:11. Um, and painful season was Isaiah 58:11. Um, and painful season was Isaiah 58:11. Um, and I love this verse because it says, "And I love this verse because it says, "And I love this verse because it says, "And the Lord will guide your you continually the Lord will guide your you continually the Lord will guide your you continually and satisfy your desire and scorch and satisfy your desire and scorch and satisfy your desire and scorch places and make your bones strong and places and make your bones strong and places and make your bones strong and you will be like a wellwatered garden, you will be like a wellwatered garden, you will be like a wellwatered garden, like a spring of water whose waters do like a spring of water whose waters do like a spring of water whose waters do not fail." And so I I I love this image not fail." And so I I I love this image not fail." And so I I I love this image of these scorched places and yet you're of these scorched places and yet you're of these scorched places and yet you're in the midst of it and you're you're you in the midst of it and you're you're you in the midst of it and you're you're you become the spring um in this dry and become the spring um in this dry and become the spring um in this dry and barren and scorched place cuz I mean I barren and scorched place cuz I mean I barren and scorched place cuz I mean I think we can say anyone who's been think we can say anyone who's been think we can say anyone who's been through church hurt it feels like um you through church hurt it feels like um you through church hurt it feels like um you know everything is burnt to the ground know everything is burnt to the ground know everything is burnt to the ground sometimes like sometime especially for sometimes like sometime especially for sometimes like sometime especially for those in ministry we didn't get to that those in ministry we didn't get to that those in ministry we didn't get to that specifically but all of us have been in specifically but all of us have been in specifically but all of us have been in ministry and sometimes you feel like, ministry and sometimes you feel like, ministry and sometimes you feel like, "Oh, "Oh, "Oh, this was all going so well and then why this was all going so well and then why this was all going so well and then why would this happen?" And so, I love I would this happen?" And so, I love I would this happen?" And so, I love I love this reminder that even in these love this reminder that even in these love this reminder that even in these dark, scorched places, the Lord is dark, scorched places, the Lord is dark, scorched places, the Lord is guiding us continually. Um that we guiding us continually. Um that we guiding us continually. Um that we think, how can this be part of it? But think, how can this be part of it? But think, how can this be part of it? But he's always at work. And I think that is he's always at work. And I think that is he's always at work. And I think that is something we can cling to. Um if you're something we can cling to. Um if you're something we can cling to. Um if you're experiencing church hurt, it it doesn't experiencing church hurt, it it doesn't experiencing church hurt, it it doesn't mean the church is wrong. It's the best mean the church is wrong. It's the best mean the church is wrong. It's the best institution on the planet. It means the

institution on the planet. It means the institution on the planet. It means the people who are in it are sometimes people who are in it are sometimes people who are in it are sometimes wrong. And so we can still cling to the wrong. And so we can still cling to the wrong. And so we can still cling to the truth of this is the bride of Christ. truth of this is the bride of Christ. truth of this is the bride of Christ. This is this this bride's going to be This is this this bride's going to be This is this this bride's going to be made beautiful one day. Um she might not made beautiful one day. Um she might not made beautiful one day. Um she might not be now, but there's still it's the most be now, but there's still it's the most be now, but there's still it's the most hopeful place we can belong. Um it is hopeful place we can belong. Um it is hopeful place we can belong. Um it is the family of God. And so we cannot the family of God. And so we cannot the family of God. And so we cannot dismay because the Lord's doing dismay because the Lord's doing dismay because the Lord's doing something that that you know something that that you know something that that you know >> he's leading his people. >> he's leading his people. >> he's leading his people. >> That's so good and so encouraging. Uh >> That's so good and so encouraging. Uh >> That's so good and so encouraging. Uh Megan, we just thank you so much for Megan, we just thank you so much for Megan, we just thank you so much for joining us on the deep dish. So the last joining us on the deep dish. So the last joining us on the deep dish. So the last last question we have for you today is last question we have for you today is last question we have for you today is what do you most look forward to um on what do you most look forward to um on what do you most look forward to um on Sunday mornings when you head out to Sunday mornings when you head out to Sunday mornings when you head out to church? church? church? >> On Sunday mornings when I head out to >> On Sunday mornings when I head out to >> On Sunday mornings when I head out to church, I most look forward to praying church, I most look forward to praying church, I most look forward to praying with God's people. Um, I just the idea with God's people. Um, I just the idea with God's people. Um, I just the idea that we are all going to come together that we are all going to come together that we are all going to come together and we're going to storm the gates of and we're going to storm the gates of and we're going to storm the gates of heaven and we're going to hold the line heaven and we're going to hold the line heaven and we're going to hold the line for our brothers and sisters around the for our brothers and sisters around the for our brothers and sisters around the world and we're going to beg the Lord world and we're going to beg the Lord world and we're going to beg the Lord for things that he's promised to do and for things that he's promised to do and for things that he's promised to do and he says he's going to hear us and yeah, he says he's going to hear us and yeah, he says he's going to hear us and yeah, the corporate prayers, the prayers of the corporate prayers, the prayers of the corporate prayers, the prayers of God's people are my favorite thing. Oh, God's people are my favorite thing. Oh, God's people are my favorite thing. Oh, I love that. Well, now we're going to be I love that. Well, now we're going to be I love that. Well, now we're going to be storming the gates of heaven with the storming the gates of heaven with the storming the gates of heaven with the petition that God will heal all of those petition that God will heal all of those petition that God will heal all of those who have been hurt by the church that he who have been hurt by the church that he who have been hurt by the church that he loves. So, friends, we hope that you loves. So, friends, we hope that you loves. So, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of The Deep have enjoyed this episode of The Deep have enjoyed this episode of The Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you know somebody who would be helped by it, know somebody who would be helped by it, know somebody who would be helped by it, please share it. Um, like and subscribe please share it. Um, like and subscribe please share it. Um, like and subscribe and we will see you next time.