Top 10 Theology Stories Since 2000 Part 1 [Gospelbound - Ep. 179]

Yeah, what's what's interesting is what Yeah, what's what's interesting is what Mike's talking about with the great Mike's talking about with the great Mike's talking about with the great D-churching is not primarily an erosion D-churching is not primarily an erosion D-churching is not primarily an erosion of belief in God or even people saying of belief in God or even people saying of belief in God or even people saying that they're that they still pray or that they're that they still pray or that they're that they still pray or even that they believe in miracles, but even that they believe in miracles, but even that they believe in miracles, but it's truly a disaffiliation from church it's truly a disaffiliation from church it's truly a disaffiliation from church and a decentering of God as the center and a decentering of God as the center and a decentering of God as the center of their lives or as any kind of of their lives or as any kind of of their lives or as any kind of authority in their lives. Hello and welcome to Gospel Bound. I Hello and welcome to Gospel Bound. I know that this is not the voice that you know that this is not the voice that you know that this is not the voice that you were expecting to hear. My name is Sarah were expecting to hear. My name is Sarah were expecting to hear. My name is Sarah Zylstra and I'm a journalist who works Zylstra and I'm a journalist who works Zylstra and I'm a journalist who works with Collin at TGC and I am starting us with Collin at TGC and I am starting us with Collin at TGC and I am starting us off today because this time I'm asking off today because this time I'm asking off today because this time I'm asking the questions and Collin's going to have the questions and Collin's going to have the questions and Collin's going to have to come up with the answers. to come up with the answers. to come up with the answers. We also have another friend and We also have another friend and We also have another friend and colleague here with us today, Mike colleague here with us today, Mike colleague here with us today, Mike Graham, who's the program director at Graham, who's the program director at Graham, who's the program director at TGC's Keller Center for Cultural TGC's Keller Center for Cultural TGC's Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. Welcome Collin and Mike. Apologetics. Welcome Collin and Mike. Apologetics. Welcome Collin and Mike. Thanks, Sarah. Glad to be here on my own Thanks, Sarah. Glad to be here on my own Thanks, Sarah. Glad to be here on my own podcast with my good friends, Mike and podcast with my good friends, Mike and podcast with my good friends, Mike and Sarah.

Sarah. Sarah. Good to have you, Sarah. Good to have Good to have you, Sarah. Good to have Good to have you, Sarah. Good to have you. So, one of my favorite things about you. So, one of my favorite things about you. So, one of my favorite things about you guys is the way that you can think you guys is the way that you can think you guys is the way that you can think about the big picture. And Collin, you about the big picture. And Collin, you about the big picture. And Collin, you do this all the time on your regular do this all the time on your regular do this all the time on your regular Gospel Bound episodes, especially when Gospel Bound episodes, especially when Gospel Bound episodes, especially when you do year-end wrap-ups with Melissa you do year-end wrap-ups with Melissa you do year-end wrap-ups with Melissa Kruger every December. And since we are Kruger every December. And since we are Kruger every December. And since we are technically starting our 25th year in technically starting our 25th year in technically starting our 25th year in the 21st century and we're also wrapping the 21st century and we're also wrapping the 21st century and we're also wrapping up our 20th year at The Gospel up our 20th year at The Gospel up our 20th year at The Gospel Coalition, it seemed like a perfect time Coalition, it seemed like a perfect time Coalition, it seemed like a perfect time to take an even higher view of what's to take an even higher view of what's to take an even higher view of what's been going on in the church since the been going on in the church since the been going on in the church since the year 2000. So, instead of a 10,000-ft year 2000. So, instead of a 10,000-ft year 2000. So, instead of a 10,000-ft view, we're going to go for a 30,000-ft view, we're going to go for a 30,000-ft view, we're going to go for a 30,000-ft view today. And this is why this is view today. And this is why this is view today. And this is why this is especially interesting to me especially interesting to me especially interesting to me because since the year 2000, religion in because since the year 2000, religion in because since the year 2000, religion in America has changed dramatically. Back America has changed dramatically. Back America has changed dramatically. Back in the 1990s, religion was here was what in the 1990s, religion was here was what in the 1990s, religion was here was what Tim Keller would call thick, which meant Tim Keller would call thick, which meant Tim Keller would call thick, which meant like in general, many clergy were held like in general, many clergy were held like in general, many clergy were held in high esteem, churches were respected, in high esteem, churches were respected, in high esteem, churches were respected, um a lot of people belonged to a um a lot of people belonged to a um a lot of people belonged to a congregation, or they knew if they congregation, or they knew if they congregation, or they knew if they didn't, they kind of felt bad about it didn't, they kind of felt bad about it didn't, they kind of felt bad about it and knew that that would be a good idea and knew that that would be a good idea and knew that that would be a good idea if they did. if they did. if they did. That is quite different now. Since 2000, That is quite different now. Since 2000, That is quite different now. Since 2000, the percent of religious Americans has the percent of religious Americans has the percent of religious Americans has dropped, and the number of nuns, or dropped, and the number of nuns, or dropped, and the number of nuns, or people with no religion, has jumped from people with no religion, has jumped from people with no religion, has jumped from about 8% to 22%. So, this is really about 8% to 22%. So, this is really about 8% to 22%. So, this is really important to talk about because social important to talk about because social important to talk about because social commentators will make a big deal out of commentators will make a big deal out of commentators will make a big deal out of how much time we've been spending on our how much time we've been spending on our how much time we've been spending on our screens over the last 20 years, and how screens over the last 20 years, and how screens over the last 20 years, and how our views on sexuality drastically our views on sexuality drastically our views on sexuality drastically changed, and how our politics have changed, and how our politics have changed, and how our politics have become sharply polarized, and how our become sharply polarized, and how our become sharply polarized, and how our mental health has tanked. But, what mental health has tanked. But, what mental health has tanked. But, what mainstream journalism almost always mainstream journalism almost always mainstream journalism almost always misses is that the thread running in and

misses is that the thread running in and misses is that the thread running in and around and through all of these things around and through all of these things around and through all of these things is how we think about and react to God. is how we think about and react to God. is how we think about and react to God. So, we are going to frame this as a top So, we are going to frame this as a top So, we are going to frame this as a top 10 list, top 10 theological stories of 10 list, top 10 theological stories of 10 list, top 10 theological stories of the last 25 years, and we will see how the last 25 years, and we will see how the last 25 years, and we will see how many of these that we can get through. many of these that we can get through. many of these that we can get through. If you guys are too interesting and we If you guys are too interesting and we If you guys are too interesting and we talk for too long, we may have to break talk for too long, we may have to break talk for too long, we may have to break this into two episodes. So, we're going this into two episodes. So, we're going this into two episodes. So, we're going to see how we do. Collin, do you have to see how we do. Collin, do you have to see how we do. Collin, do you have any other thoughts for us before we jump any other thoughts for us before we jump any other thoughts for us before we jump into our list? into our list? into our list? >> I'll be I'll be a little surprised if we >> I'll be I'll be a little surprised if we >> I'll be I'll be a little surprised if we don't do two two episodes out of this. don't do two two episodes out of this. don't do two two episodes out of this. Um Um Um what Mike and I often do at the Keller what Mike and I often do at the Keller what Mike and I often do at the Keller Center is just help people to think Center is just help people to think Center is just help people to think about, as you said there, Sarah, the big about, as you said there, Sarah, the big about, as you said there, Sarah, the big picture. And sometimes looking back on picture. And sometimes looking back on picture. And sometimes looking back on lists like this is a really helpful way lists like this is a really helpful way lists like this is a really helpful way to do it. It's It organizes your to do it. It's It organizes your to do it. It's It organizes your thoughts. It helps you to focus on the thoughts. It helps you to focus on the thoughts. It helps you to focus on the things that you might have overlooked or things that you might have overlooked or things that you might have overlooked or taken for granted as the biggest trends taken for granted as the biggest trends taken for granted as the biggest trends that continue to affect us today. that continue to affect us today. that continue to affect us today. But, I also think about a book that But, I also think about a book that But, I also think about a book that really made a big difference in my life, really made a big difference in my life, really made a big difference in my life, Hans Rosling's 2018 book Factfulness. Hans Rosling's 2018 book Factfulness. Hans Rosling's 2018 book Factfulness. Um he points out that we often focus on Um he points out that we often focus on Um he points out that we often focus on the problems, the things that have gone the problems, the things that have gone the problems, the things that have gone wrong, the big dramatic, terrible things wrong, the big dramatic, terrible things wrong, the big dramatic, terrible things that have happened, but we don't even that have happened, but we don't even that have happened, but we don't even look at the trends that have been look at the trends that have been look at the trends that have been incredibly positive, that have been very incredibly positive, that have been very incredibly positive, that have been very hopeful, the new inventions that that hopeful, the new inventions that that hopeful, the new inventions that that saved lives, the new medicines that have saved lives, the new medicines that have saved lives, the new medicines that have been produced, um they just don't make been produced, um they just don't make been produced, um they just don't make it into our media. They don't make it it into our media. They don't make it it into our media. They don't make it into our political campaigns. Um often into our political campaigns. Um often into our political campaigns. Um often the focus is on what's what's going to the focus is on what's what's going to the focus is on what's what's going to be um what's going to make us angry, be um what's going to make us angry, be um what's going to make us angry, what's going to make us afraid. And so, what's going to make us afraid. And so, what's going to make us afraid. And so, we just we end up taking for granted

we just we end up taking for granted we just we end up taking for granted those good things, we end up focusing on those good things, we end up focusing on those good things, we end up focusing on the bad, and then no wonder the bad, and then no wonder the bad, and then no wonder we feel so miserable. We feel like we feel so miserable. We feel like we feel so miserable. We feel like everything's terrible. So, um this will everything's terrible. So, um this will everything's terrible. So, um this will hopefully be a fun exercise in looking hopefully be a fun exercise in looking hopefully be a fun exercise in looking at this with with you guys, but it also at this with with you guys, but it also at this with with you guys, but it also is going to be a heavy exercise because is going to be a heavy exercise because is going to be a heavy exercise because there have been a lot of difficult there have been a lot of difficult there have been a lot of difficult things, and things, and things, and you know, we're all you know, we're all you know, we're all roughly our careers, the three of us, roughly our careers, the three of us, roughly our careers, the three of us, that's why I wanted to do this with you that's why I wanted to do this with you that's why I wanted to do this with you guys, our careers roughly align to this guys, our careers roughly align to this guys, our careers roughly align to this timeline of the last 25 years. So, timeline of the last 25 years. So, timeline of the last 25 years. So, they're related to times when we were they're related to times when we were they're related to times when we were pursuing education early on this, and pursuing education early on this, and pursuing education early on this, and then starting in our careers, and then then starting in our careers, and then then starting in our careers, and then advancing, and moving into the middle of advancing, and moving into the middle of advancing, and moving into the middle of those careers. So, this is something those careers. So, this is something those careers. So, this is something that we've we've lived, the three of us, that we've we've lived, the three of us, that we've we've lived, the three of us, and um and um and um and have a little bit of perspective on, and have a little bit of perspective on, and have a little bit of perspective on, uh and yet I'll be eager to see, uh and yet I'll be eager to see, uh and yet I'll be eager to see, obviously, where things go from here and obviously, where things go from here and obviously, where things go from here and what these trends might portend for the what these trends might portend for the what these trends might portend for the future, but we've got we've got a lot to future, but we've got we've got a lot to future, but we've got we've got a lot to cover. We've got a lot to cover here. We cover. We've got a lot to cover here. We cover. We've got a lot to cover here. We do. On that note, let us jump right into do. On that note, let us jump right into do. On that note, let us jump right into number 10. We are used to hearing bad number 10. We are used to hearing bad number 10. We are used to hearing bad news out of Africa, I would say um most news out of Africa, I would say um most news out of Africa, I would say um most recently we've been hearing a lot about recently we've been hearing a lot about recently we've been hearing a lot about Islamic persecution of Christians in Islamic persecution of Christians in Islamic persecution of Christians in Nigeria.

Nigeria. Nigeria. Um but Collin, your number 10 has to do Um but Collin, your number 10 has to do Um but Collin, your number 10 has to do with Africa. You want to talk to us with Africa. You want to talk to us with Africa. You want to talk to us about that? Yeah, one of the things about that? Yeah, one of the things about that? Yeah, one of the things going back to the beginning of my going back to the beginning of my going back to the beginning of my career, when I was a a journalism career, when I was a a journalism career, when I was a a journalism student, I had to write for a magazine student, I had to write for a magazine student, I had to write for a magazine class class class about just some major religious trend, about just some major religious trend, about just some major religious trend, and I identified a local Anglican church and I identified a local Anglican church and I identified a local Anglican church that was part of this new thing called that was part of this new thing called that was part of this new thing called the Anglican Mission in America. the Anglican Mission in America. the Anglican Mission in America. And the fascinating thing about this And the fascinating thing about this And the fascinating thing about this Anglican Mission in America was that Anglican Mission in America was that Anglican Mission in America was that they were led by bishops in Africa. This they were led by bishops in Africa. This they were led by bishops in Africa. This is an American Anglican church, but led is an American Anglican church, but led is an American Anglican church, but led by bishops in Africa who were by bishops in Africa who were by bishops in Africa who were conservative on their views on conservative on their views on conservative on their views on scripture, as well as also the scripture, as well as also the scripture, as well as also the implications of that, their views on um implications of that, their views on um implications of that, their views on um their views on religion more broadly, their views on religion more broadly, their views on religion more broadly, but sexuality in particular. And I but sexuality in particular. And I but sexuality in particular. And I remember my magazine professor, he's remember my magazine professor, he's remember my magazine professor, he's died a number of years ago, he was a died a number of years ago, he was a died a number of years ago, he was a veteran religion reporter, veteran religion reporter, veteran religion reporter, and he was just horrified by this. He and he was just horrified by this. He and he was just horrified by this. He was a liberal Catholic. He didn't know was a liberal Catholic. He didn't know was a liberal Catholic. He didn't know that any of this was happening, and he that any of this was happening, and he that any of this was happening, and he was really scared about it. But this has was really scared about it. But this has was really scared about it. But this has continued to be a big deal. It's just continued to be a big deal. It's just continued to be a big deal. It's just this number 10, to sum it up, the global this number 10, to sum it up, the global this number 10, to sum it up, the global church leadership or global church church leadership or global church church leadership or global church leadership is moving south. I'll mention leadership is moving south. I'll mention leadership is moving south. I'll mention just a few of the specific events of just a few of the specific events of just a few of the specific events of what's happened, just to recap some of what's happened, just to recap some of what's happened, just to recap some of that. Some of this is brand new. Just in that. Some of this is brand new. Just in that. Some of this is brand new. Just in 2025, you saw this very defiant mode 2025, you saw this very defiant mode 2025, you saw this very defiant mode from GAFCON, this global Anglican Future from GAFCON, this global Anglican Future from GAFCON, this global Anglican Future Conference, uh led by African leaders, Conference, uh led by African leaders, Conference, uh led by African leaders, but representing conservatives from but representing conservatives from but representing conservatives from around the world, um with a new around the world, um with a new around the world, um with a new Archbishop of Canterbury, they basically Archbishop of Canterbury, they basically Archbishop of Canterbury, they basically just said, "Look, we're not listening just said, "Look, we're not listening just said, "Look, we're not listening anymore. You're not You're not in anymore. You're not You're not in anymore. You're not You're not in charge." Um this, like I said, was a

charge." Um this, like I said, was a charge." Um this, like I said, was a move that goes back to 2000, when when move that goes back to 2000, when when move that goes back to 2000, when when ACNA, the Anglican Mission in America, ACNA, the Anglican Mission in America, ACNA, the Anglican Mission in America, began. But when we think about this began. But when we think about this began. But when we think about this within the broader context of other within the broader context of other within the broader context of other issues, Sarah, we also think about the issues, Sarah, we also think about the issues, Sarah, we also think about the way that movements that have been way that movements that have been way that movements that have been largely Western-led largely Western-led largely Western-led um have shifted be to be more global um have shifted be to be more global um have shifted be to be more global south, especially leadership. We think south, especially leadership. We think south, especially leadership. We think about how the third Lausanne Congress on about how the third Lausanne Congress on about how the third Lausanne Congress on world evangelization took place in Cape world evangelization took place in Cape world evangelization took place in Cape Town, South Africa, in 2010. Town, South Africa, in 2010. Town, South Africa, in 2010. But there's a couple angles here But there's a couple angles here But there's a couple angles here that are going to be really interesting that are going to be really interesting that are going to be really interesting to think about going forward. We do not to think about going forward. We do not to think about going forward. We do not know what's going to happen with these. know what's going to happen with these. know what's going to happen with these. We think primarily about as this church We think primarily about as this church We think primarily about as this church has spread as church has spread in in has spread as church has spread in in has spread as church has spread in in different evangelical expressions around different evangelical expressions around different evangelical expressions around the world, especially in the global the world, especially in the global the world, especially in the global south, we also see, as you've written south, we also see, as you've written south, we also see, as you've written about a lot, Sarah, we see that there's about a lot, Sarah, we see that there's about a lot, Sarah, we see that there's a lot of prosperity gospel that's mixed a lot of prosperity gospel that's mixed a lot of prosperity gospel that's mixed in to this as well. So we wonder, going in to this as well. So we wonder, going in to this as well. So we wonder, going forward, will orthodoxy, biblical, forward, will orthodoxy, biblical, forward, will orthodoxy, biblical, historic, creedal, confessional historic, creedal, confessional historic, creedal, confessional orthodoxy, will that hold, or will be orthodoxy, will that hold, or will be orthodoxy, will that hold, or will be subsumed under a broader prosperity subsumed under a broader prosperity subsumed under a broader prosperity gospel um a motif that's, you know, gospel um a motif that's, you know, gospel um a motif that's, you know, exported from the early 20th century out exported from the early 20th century out exported from the early 20th century out of the United States. Then the other of the United States. Then the other of the United States. Then the other question, you and I, Sarah, have gone question, you and I, Sarah, have gone question, you and I, Sarah, have gone back and forth on this a little bit even back and forth on this a little bit even back and forth on this a little bit even just even just recently, is fertility just even just recently, is fertility just even just recently, is fertility rates. Now, to be clear, um you've rates. Now, to be clear, um you've rates. Now, to be clear, um you've pointed out that fertility rates in pointed out that fertility rates in pointed out that fertility rates in Africa are declining just as they are in Africa are declining just as they are in Africa are declining just as they are in so many other parts of the world.

so many other parts of the world. so many other parts of the world. Yet, when they've been declining over Yet, when they've been declining over Yet, when they've been declining over the last 20 years, the last 20 years, the last 20 years, Africa had still been still been holding Africa had still been still been holding Africa had still been still been holding strong with much higher than than the strong with much higher than than the strong with much higher than than the rest of the country those fertility rest of the country those fertility rest of the country those fertility rates. That means that in some ways rates. That means that in some ways rates. That means that in some ways there is simply a an unavoidable there is simply a an unavoidable there is simply a an unavoidable demographic future demographic future demographic future that indicates that many things will be that indicates that many things will be that indicates that many things will be be shifting toward Africa or its broader be shifting toward Africa or its broader be shifting toward Africa or its broader global diaspora in in future years global diaspora in in future years global diaspora in in future years because of what's already happened in because of what's already happened in because of what's already happened in the last 25 years. So, you can see this the last 25 years. So, you can see this the last 25 years. So, you can see this in a lot of debates over over in a lot of debates over over in a lot of debates over over immigration, a lot of debates about um immigration, a lot of debates about um immigration, a lot of debates about um technology as it relates between uh the technology as it relates between uh the technology as it relates between uh the global south and its production there in global south and its production there in global south and its production there in the west, but there's no doubt that no the west, but there's no doubt that no the west, but there's no doubt that no matter what happens, Africa will play a matter what happens, Africa will play a matter what happens, Africa will play a bigger role in the next 25 years because bigger role in the next 25 years because bigger role in the next 25 years because of what's happened in last 25 years just of what's happened in last 25 years just of what's happened in last 25 years just with those fertility rates. So, number with those fertility rates. So, number with those fertility rates. So, number 10, the global church leadership has 10, the global church leadership has 10, the global church leadership has been moving south. Yeah, and what's been moving south. Yeah, and what's been moving south. Yeah, and what's interesting about that is that interesting about that is that interesting about that is that theological education though has not theological education though has not theological education though has not been moving south. So, while Africa has been moving south. So, while Africa has been moving south. So, while Africa has the people, more people and maybe more the people, more people and maybe more the people, more people and maybe more Christians certainly, um it feels like Christians certainly, um it feels like Christians certainly, um it feels like that's sort of the the center or the that's sort of the the center or the that's sort of the the center or the growing center of Christianity. Um there growing center of Christianity. Um there growing center of Christianity. Um there theological education is not theological education is not theological education is not >> keeping up. Yeah. The resources for >> keeping up. Yeah. The resources for >> keeping up. Yeah. The resources for education and for publishing are still education and for publishing are still education and for publishing are still are very western-focused.

are very western-focused. are very western-focused. And also with a a more widespread And also with a a more widespread And also with a a more widespread um and historic history with education um and historic history with education um and historic history with education and literacy across many different and literacy across many different and literacy across many different countries. So, within that network. So, countries. So, within that network. So, countries. So, within that network. So, that would definitely be the next step. that would definitely be the next step. that would definitely be the next step. If we saw a trend in the next 25 years If we saw a trend in the next 25 years If we saw a trend in the next 25 years of the declining number of Western of the declining number of Western of the declining number of Western theological students choosing to study theological students choosing to study theological students choosing to study in Africa, in Africa, in Africa, that would truly be a transformation that would truly be a transformation that would truly be a transformation from what we've seen in the last 25 from what we've seen in the last 25 from what we've seen in the last 25 years where a lot of that education, not years where a lot of that education, not years where a lot of that education, not all of it because there have been very all of it because there have been very all of it because there have been very significant moves to Africa in this last significant moves to Africa in this last significant moves to Africa in this last 25 years, but still a lot of those 25 years, but still a lot of those 25 years, but still a lot of those leaders have been studying in the West leaders have been studying in the West leaders have been studying in the West and are reading books out of the West and are reading books out of the West and are reading books out of the West even as some have started to try to even as some have started to try to even as some have started to try to shift that shift that narrative. Yeah, shift that shift that narrative. Yeah, shift that shift that narrative. Yeah, that makes sense. that makes sense. that makes sense. Um so, if the future of the church is Um so, if the future of the church is Um so, if the future of the church is perhaps African, maybe it is also perhaps African, maybe it is also perhaps African, maybe it is also non-denominational. Tell us about number non-denominational. Tell us about number non-denominational. Tell us about number nine, the rise of non-denominational nine, the rise of non-denominational nine, the rise of non-denominational congregations. Yeah, once again, this is congregations. Yeah, once again, this is congregations. Yeah, once again, this is probably one that a lot of people just probably one that a lot of people just probably one that a lot of people just aren't really thinking about but has aren't really thinking about but has aren't really thinking about but has been so very very different. Um one of been so very very different. Um one of been so very very different. Um one of the largest churches in the country, the largest churches in the country, the largest churches in the country, even the world, is right here in my even the world, is right here in my even the world, is right here in my backyard in Birmingham. It's a backyard in Birmingham. It's a backyard in Birmingham. It's a non-denominational non-denominational non-denominational uh church, multi-site church network. A uh church, multi-site church network. A uh church, multi-site church network. A lot of people have shifted out of lot of people have shifted out of lot of people have shifted out of Southern Baptist congregations, even Southern Baptist congregations, even Southern Baptist congregations, even Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist, all Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist, all Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist, all sorts of different churches into that sorts of different churches into that sorts of different churches into that that church.

that church. that church. Um right now, 25 years in, this place is Um right now, 25 years in, this place is Um right now, 25 years in, this place is called Church of the Highlands, 25 years called Church of the Highlands, 25 years called Church of the Highlands, 25 years in, we we take that for granted but in, we we take that for granted but in, we we take that for granted but that's been a been a significant shift. that's been a been a significant shift. that's been a been a significant shift. So, you see a few denominations, the So, you see a few denominations, the So, you see a few denominations, the Presbyterian Church in America would be Presbyterian Church in America would be Presbyterian Church in America would be an example, that's really increased in an example, that's really increased in an example, that's really increased in these last 25 years, but overall, these last 25 years, but overall, these last 25 years, but overall, proportionately, it's still very still proportionately, it's still very still proportionately, it's still very still very small. Um and then the yeah, very small. Um and then the yeah, very small. Um and then the yeah, Southern Baptist Convention had peaked Southern Baptist Convention had peaked Southern Baptist Convention had peaked during this period but then also during this period but then also during this period but then also declined substantially, especially in declined substantially, especially in declined substantially, especially in the last in the last decade. Now, part the last in the last decade. Now, part the last in the last decade. Now, part of what confuses people though, Sarah, of what confuses people though, Sarah, of what confuses people though, Sarah, about the implications theologically about the implications theologically about the implications theologically here here here is people will think, well, that means is people will think, well, that means is people will think, well, that means then that then that then that this expression of conservative and this expression of conservative and this expression of conservative and evangelical theology then must itself be evangelical theology then must itself be evangelical theology then must itself be in significant decline. in significant decline. in significant decline. But what you actually see is that the But what you actually see is that the But what you actually see is that the vast majority, I mean the overwhelming vast majority, I mean the overwhelming vast majority, I mean the overwhelming majority of these non-denominational majority of these non-denominational majority of these non-denominational churches are both conservative in what churches are both conservative in what churches are both conservative in what they teach from scripture, they teach from scripture, they teach from scripture, but also are even more conservative in but also are even more conservative in but also are even more conservative in their political views and political their political views and political their political views and political expressions than any other denomination expressions than any other denomination expressions than any other denomination that you're going to find. So, before I that you're going to find. So, before I that you're going to find. So, before I kick it over to Mike cuz I'd love for kick it over to Mike cuz I'd love for kick it over to Mike cuz I'd love for Mike to be able to to offer some numbers Mike to be able to to offer some numbers Mike to be able to to offer some numbers here, here, here, but we need to also think about how the but we need to also think about how the but we need to also think about how the internet um which only became entered a internet um which only became entered a internet um which only became entered a majority of American homes in the year majority of American homes in the year majority of American homes in the year 2000. The way that that significantly 2000. The way that that significantly 2000. The way that that significantly influenced this trend. So, one of the influenced this trend. So, one of the influenced this trend. So, one of the reasons non-denominational churches are reasons non-denominational churches are reasons non-denominational churches are so much larger and influential so much larger and influential so much larger and influential is because you don't have to stick is because you don't have to stick is because you don't have to stick within your own network for resourcing.

within your own network for resourcing. within your own network for resourcing. You mentioned Sarah that The Gospel You mentioned Sarah that The Gospel You mentioned Sarah that The Gospel Coalition goes back 20 years, uh a Coalition goes back 20 years, uh a Coalition goes back 20 years, uh a little over 20 years now, um in 2005, little over 20 years now, um in 2005, little over 20 years now, um in 2005, well, no doubt The Gospel Coalition has well, no doubt The Gospel Coalition has well, no doubt The Gospel Coalition has played a significant role of taking and played a significant role of taking and played a significant role of taking and developing resources from all different developing resources from all different developing resources from all different kinds of evangelical denominations and kinds of evangelical denominations and kinds of evangelical denominations and churches from around the world, pooling churches from around the world, pooling churches from around the world, pooling them into one source, and then spreading them into one source, and then spreading them into one source, and then spreading them to all these different churches. them to all these different churches. them to all these different churches. So, but you you've seen this in a lot of So, but you you've seen this in a lot of So, but you you've seen this in a lot of trends that um that we've covered and trends that um that we've covered and trends that um that we've covered and talked about so much. You see it in one talked about so much. You see it in one talked about so much. You see it in one of the best-selling Christian books of of the best-selling Christian books of of the best-selling Christian books of all time, The Purpose Driven Life, all time, The Purpose Driven Life, all time, The Purpose Driven Life, coming out of Southern Baptist Church at coming out of Southern Baptist Church at coming out of Southern Baptist Church at the time with Rick Warren, but the time with Rick Warren, but the time with Rick Warren, but spreading, you know, certainly far spreading, you know, certainly far spreading, you know, certainly far beyond that. We also see this as a major beyond that. We also see this as a major beyond that. We also see this as a major factor in the spread of reformed factor in the spread of reformed factor in the spread of reformed theology, not just in Presbyterian theology, not just in Presbyterian theology, not just in Presbyterian denominations, but back to a lot of denominations, but back to a lot of denominations, but back to a lot of Baptist and non-denominational churches Baptist and non-denominational churches Baptist and non-denominational churches as well. Um something we hadn't seen in as well. Um something we hadn't seen in as well. Um something we hadn't seen in Baptist churches at a widespread level Baptist churches at a widespread level Baptist churches at a widespread level since even before the Second Great since even before the Second Great since even before the Second Great Awakening. I mean, that's how Awakening. I mean, that's how Awakening. I mean, that's how substantial this theological development substantial this theological development substantial this theological development is. We're going back to the early 19th is. We're going back to the early 19th is. We're going back to the early 19th century there. I still go back within century there. I still go back within century there. I still go back within this time period to one of my professors this time period to one of my professors this time period to one of my professors in college, in college, in college, and I mentioned that there were and I mentioned that there were and I mentioned that there were Calvinists, and he just laughed at me, Calvinists, and he just laughed at me, Calvinists, and he just laughed at me, and he said, "No, they all died. They and he said, "No, they all died. They and he said, "No, they all died. They all died before the Second Great all died before the Second Great all died before the Second Great Awakening. They don't exist anymore."

Awakening. They don't exist anymore." Awakening. They don't exist anymore." Well, he wouldn't say that now, but Well, he wouldn't say that now, but Well, he wouldn't say that now, but that's what he told me as an undergrad that's what he told me as an undergrad that's what he told me as an undergrad in college. This was before, of course, in college. This was before, of course, in college. This was before, of course, I wrote my book, Young Restless Reformed I wrote my book, Young Restless Reformed I wrote my book, Young Restless Reformed in in 2008. in in 2008. in in 2008. Um but the last thing to point out here Um but the last thing to point out here Um but the last thing to point out here before I kick it over to Mike is just to before I kick it over to Mike is just to before I kick it over to Mike is just to think about the other theological think about the other theological think about the other theological debates that have transcended debates that have transcended debates that have transcended denominations, that have crossed all denominations, that have crossed all denominations, that have crossed all those boundaries um as the decline of those boundaries um as the decline of those boundaries um as the decline of those institutional denominational those institutional denominational those institutional denominational authorities has progressed these last 25 authorities has progressed these last 25 authorities has progressed these last 25 years. You think about the rise um well, years. You think about the rise um well, years. You think about the rise um well, debates and pushback against the seeker debates and pushback against the seeker debates and pushback against the seeker churches of the previous 25 years. You churches of the previous 25 years. You churches of the previous 25 years. You think about the rise and fall of the think about the rise and fall of the think about the rise and fall of the emerging church movement, which in many emerging church movement, which in many emerging church movement, which in many ways was eclipsed by charismatic ways was eclipsed by charismatic ways was eclipsed by charismatic churches and then also these new churches and then also these new churches and then also these new Calvinist churches just mentioned. Then Calvinist churches just mentioned. Then Calvinist churches just mentioned. Then I think about the debates about the new I think about the debates about the new I think about the debates about the new perspective on Paul or the social perspective on Paul or the social perspective on Paul or the social Trinity. Trinity. Trinity. All those are significant within All those are significant within All those are significant within themselves, but all of them transcended themselves, but all of them transcended themselves, but all of them transcended these denominations because, especially these denominations because, especially these denominations because, especially of once again, these debates are not of once again, these debates are not of once again, these debates are not self-contained within one group, within self-contained within one group, within self-contained within one group, within these journals, within these schools, these journals, within these schools, these journals, within these schools, but now are influencing all of them. But but now are influencing all of them. But but now are influencing all of them. But then also the significant role of the then also the significant role of the then also the significant role of the internet in being able to spread those internet in being able to spread those internet in being able to spread those debates everywhere. So, Mike, do you debates everywhere. So, Mike, do you debates everywhere. So, Mike, do you have a sense for have a sense for have a sense for kind of the scale or the scope of of kind of the scale or the scope of of kind of the scale or the scope of of that shift in terms of that shift in terms of that shift in terms of non-denominational churches?

non-denominational churches? non-denominational churches? Yeah, so the the rise of Yeah, so the the rise of Yeah, so the the rise of non-denominationalism essentially over non-denominationalism essentially over non-denominationalism essentially over the course of our lifetimes is about the course of our lifetimes is about the course of our lifetimes is about five times as large as when five times as large as when five times as large as when as a little bit before when we were as a little bit before when we were as a little bit before when we were born. So, non-denominationalism was born. So, non-denominationalism was born. So, non-denominationalism was about uh 3% in 1972, about uh 3% in 1972, about uh 3% in 1972, and it's around 14 or 15% um here today. and it's around 14 or 15% um here today. and it's around 14 or 15% um here today. And so, as you know, anytime when you're And so, as you know, anytime when you're And so, as you know, anytime when you're looking at religious trends, when looking at religious trends, when looking at religious trends, when something moves faster than a couple something moves faster than a couple something moves faster than a couple percent per year, um it's definitely a percent per year, um it's definitely a percent per year, um it's definitely a story. And when something goes 5x, story. And when something goes 5x, story. And when something goes 5x, you know, over the course of 50 years, you know, over the course of 50 years, you know, over the course of 50 years, that's something that's a very, very that's something that's a very, very that's something that's a very, very significant trend. I think one of the significant trend. I think one of the significant trend. I think one of the things that has um accelerated the rise things that has um accelerated the rise things that has um accelerated the rise of non-denominationalism of non-denominationalism of non-denominationalism over the last um certainly the last 15 over the last um certainly the last 15 over the last um certainly the last 15 years is during kind of the the social years is during kind of the the social years is during kind of the the social media and smartphone era, one of the media and smartphone era, one of the media and smartphone era, one of the ways that the internet functions, and ways that the internet functions, and ways that the internet functions, and we'll talk about this, you know, in the we'll talk about this, you know, in the we'll talk about this, you know, in the you know, in kind of the top five, is you know, in kind of the top five, is you know, in kind of the top five, is the the internet does function in a way the the internet does function in a way the the internet does function in a way that incentivizes the critiques of that incentivizes the critiques of that incentivizes the critiques of institutions. Some of those critiques institutions. Some of those critiques institutions. Some of those critiques are valid and warranted and good, and are valid and warranted and good, and are valid and warranted and good, and sometimes those critiques are maybe sometimes those critiques are maybe sometimes those critiques are maybe unfair or uncharitable. And so, unfair or uncharitable. And so, unfair or uncharitable. And so, one of the challenges in the digital era one of the challenges in the digital era one of the challenges in the digital era of, you know, of denominational churches of, you know, of denominational churches of, you know, of denominational churches is something that used to be a feature is something that used to be a feature is something that used to be a feature has potentially become a bug. And so, has potentially become a bug. And so, has potentially become a bug. And so, you know, when you it used to be that you know, when you it used to be that you know, when you it used to be that when you move from one community to when you move from one community to when you move from one community to another, it's like, well, you know, I'm

another, it's like, well, you know, I'm another, it's like, well, you know, I'm from such and such, you know, tradition from such and such, you know, tradition from such and such, you know, tradition and such and such denomination. I'm and such and such denomination. I'm and such and such denomination. I'm going to go and find, you know, the best going to go and find, you know, the best going to go and find, you know, the best type of that particular denomination in type of that particular denomination in type of that particular denomination in my new community. But, that kind of my new community. But, that kind of my new community. But, that kind of thing, um thing, um thing, um you know, when you become associated you know, when you become associated you know, when you become associated with all of these other churches and with all of these other churches and with all of these other churches and have this common identity together, in have this common identity together, in have this common identity together, in the digital era, now you can be, you the digital era, now you can be, you the digital era, now you can be, you know, your church that might not have know, your church that might not have know, your church that might not have anything to do with a church, you know, anything to do with a church, you know, anything to do with a church, you know, on the you know, complete other side of on the you know, complete other side of on the you know, complete other side of the country or even the other side of the country or even the other side of the country or even the other side of the world, is now becomes identified the world, is now becomes identified the world, is now becomes identified with, you know, with another church that with, you know, with another church that with, you know, with another church that may have some big scandal that's very may have some big scandal that's very may have some big scandal that's very problematic for not, you know, something problematic for not, you know, something problematic for not, you know, something that wouldn't have become an issue and that wouldn't have become an issue and that wouldn't have become an issue and would have never been a topic of would have never been a topic of would have never been a topic of conversation, you know, for you and your conversation, you know, for you and your conversation, you know, for you and your church, it it might be a problem now for church, it it might be a problem now for church, it it might be a problem now for you. So, I think that's one of those you. So, I think that's one of those you. So, I think that's one of those things, at least in the last decade or things, at least in the last decade or things, at least in the last decade or so, so, so, that has definitely accelerated the rate that has definitely accelerated the rate that has definitely accelerated the rate of non-denominationalism, but certainly of non-denominationalism, but certainly of non-denominationalism, but certainly those those were trends that were those those were trends that were those those were trends that were already well well entrenched in the already well well entrenched in the already well well entrenched in the decades before that as well for a wide decades before that as well for a wide decades before that as well for a wide variety of other reasons. Another variety of other reasons. Another variety of other reasons. Another related shift there would be how many related shift there would be how many related shift there would be how many especially Southern Baptist churches especially Southern Baptist churches especially Southern Baptist churches have dropped Baptist names and Baptist have dropped Baptist names and Baptist have dropped Baptist names and Baptist identity in order to blend in a little identity in order to blend in a little identity in order to blend in a little bit more within that that time. Um, bit more within that that time. Um, bit more within that that time. Um, a lot of people a lot of people a lot of people it may be hard to remember how it may be hard to remember how it may be hard to remember how contentious things were with the contentious things were with the contentious things were with the Southern Baptist Convention, their Southern Baptist Convention, their Southern Baptist Convention, their debates in the '80s and '90s about the debates in the '80s and '90s about the debates in the '80s and '90s about the control of the denomination, and then a control of the denomination, and then a control of the denomination, and then a really strong culture war ethos in the

really strong culture war ethos in the really strong culture war ethos in the 1990s. Think about the Disney boycotts 1990s. Think about the Disney boycotts 1990s. Think about the Disney boycotts and and whatnot. So, there's been a lot and and whatnot. So, there's been a lot and and whatnot. So, there's been a lot of ditching of that Baptist identity of ditching of that Baptist identity of ditching of that Baptist identity that's that's representative of some of that's that's representative of some of that's that's representative of some of how people are perceiving Baptist, which how people are perceiving Baptist, which how people are perceiving Baptist, which is not necessarily the SBC's fault in a is not necessarily the SBC's fault in a is not necessarily the SBC's fault in a number of different cases because we number of different cases because we number of different cases because we think about, you know, the most famous think about, you know, the most famous think about, you know, the most famous Baptist church, the church that goes Baptist church, the church that goes Baptist church, the church that goes around and protests at all these around and protests at all these around and protests at all these funerals and things like that, is not an funerals and things like that, is not an funerals and things like that, is not an actual Baptist church in in any way, actual Baptist church in in any way, actual Baptist church in in any way, shape, or form, but that just lodged in shape, or form, but that just lodged in shape, or form, but that just lodged in these last 25 years into people's minds these last 25 years into people's minds these last 25 years into people's minds of like, "Oh, that's what that's what it of like, "Oh, that's what that's what it of like, "Oh, that's what that's what it means to be Baptist is to be really means to be Baptist is to be really means to be Baptist is to be really hateful and to be really cruel and to go hateful and to be really cruel and to go hateful and to be really cruel and to go out of your way to be harsh." And again, out of your way to be harsh." And again, out of your way to be harsh." And again, that's not what these actual churches that's not what these actual churches that's not what these actual churches are, but are, but are, but because of what Mike is talking about, because of what Mike is talking about, because of what Mike is talking about, the way that the media landscape can the way that the media landscape can the way that the media landscape can amplify that elsewhere, there's a rush amplify that elsewhere, there's a rush amplify that elsewhere, there's a rush away from any broader association away from any broader association away from any broader association because if you if you can just be blamed because if you if you can just be blamed because if you if you can just be blamed for what happens in your church, that's for what happens in your church, that's for what happens in your church, that's not likely to get that much attention. not likely to get that much attention. not likely to get that much attention. But if you can be blamed in your church But if you can be blamed in your church But if you can be blamed in your church for what happens in every other church for what happens in every other church for what happens in every other church that has Baptist in their name, and even that has Baptist in their name, and even that has Baptist in their name, and even when somebody wants to just run around when somebody wants to just run around when somebody wants to just run around and just slap Baptist on their overgrown and just slap Baptist on their overgrown and just slap Baptist on their overgrown family cult out of Kansas, well, I mean, family cult out of Kansas, well, I mean, family cult out of Kansas, well, I mean, that that becomes a major problem in that that becomes a major problem in that that becomes a major problem in this media landscape. And the last thing this media landscape. And the last thing this media landscape. And the last thing I think, Sarah, to point out in this I think, Sarah, to point out in this I think, Sarah, to point out in this category would be the influence of category would be the influence of category would be the influence of church planting networks during this church planting networks during this church planting networks during this time as well. That's a that's a very new time as well. That's a that's a very new time as well. That's a that's a very new phenomenon in a lot of different ways, phenomenon in a lot of different ways, phenomenon in a lot of different ways, but when you combine but when you combine but when you combine in aggressive focus on

in aggressive focus on in aggressive focus on non-denominational churches, not the non-denominational churches, not the non-denominational churches, not the denominations don't have their own denominations don't have their own denominations don't have their own problems, they do for sure, but you problems, they do for sure, but you problems, they do for sure, but you combine non-denominational churches with combine non-denominational churches with combine non-denominational churches with an aggressive focus on church planting, an aggressive focus on church planting, an aggressive focus on church planting, a strong entrepreneurial spirit that was a strong entrepreneurial spirit that was a strong entrepreneurial spirit that was characteristic of the of of these last characteristic of the of of these last characteristic of the of of these last 25 years in the church marketplace, 25 years in the church marketplace, 25 years in the church marketplace, and you're going to get some situations and you're going to get some situations and you're going to get some situations like Mars Hill. like Mars Hill. like Mars Hill. That will happen as well. You're going That will happen as well. You're going That will happen as well. You're going to see a lot of explosion of growth and to see a lot of explosion of growth and to see a lot of explosion of growth and a lot of implosion as well. So, that's a lot of implosion as well. So, that's a lot of implosion as well. So, that's another major trend that's that's taken another major trend that's that's taken another major trend that's that's taken we've seen a few times, Mars Hill the we've seen a few times, Mars Hill the we've seen a few times, Mars Hill the most prominent among them within within most prominent among them within within most prominent among them within within the state of the church and theological the state of the church and theological the state of the church and theological discourse last 25 years. Yeah, that discourse last 25 years. Yeah, that discourse last 25 years. Yeah, that makes sense. That is a lot makes sense. That is a lot makes sense. That is a lot a lot to contend with and we're doing a lot to contend with and we're doing a lot to contend with and we're doing that in a country that embraces the that in a country that embraces the that in a country that embraces the freedom of religion. So, we we are free freedom of religion. So, we we are free freedom of religion. So, we we are free to make all these choices and and to make all these choices and and to make all these choices and and changes, but number eight takes us to a changes, but number eight takes us to a changes, but number eight takes us to a different scenario. We're we're over in different scenario. We're we're over in different scenario. We're we're over in China. Colin, what's happening over China. Colin, what's happening over China. Colin, what's happening over there? It's so interesting when you there? It's so interesting when you there? It's so interesting when you decide to take a snapshot of history decide to take a snapshot of history decide to take a snapshot of history because we could go back well into this because we could go back well into this because we could go back well into this first quarter century of 21st century first quarter century of 21st century first quarter century of 21st century and identify and identify and identify maybe the number one story or at least maybe the number one story or at least maybe the number one story or at least one of the top, you know, three or four one of the top, you know, three or four one of the top, you know, three or four or five stories or five stories or five stories would be about the rapid growth of the would be about the rapid growth of the would be about the rapid growth of the church in China.

church in China. church in China. And especially with their increasing And especially with their increasing And especially with their increasing openness toward the West and their openness toward the West and their openness toward the West and their further embrace of a of a kind of hybrid further embrace of a of a kind of hybrid further embrace of a of a kind of hybrid capitalism capitalism capitalism to go with their take their kind of to go with their take their kind of to go with their take their kind of Maoist communism. So, just depending on Maoist communism. So, just depending on Maoist communism. So, just depending on where you take the snapshot, you might where you take the snapshot, you might where you take the snapshot, you might be looking on the one hand, this is one be looking on the one hand, this is one be looking on the one hand, this is one of the most amazing church developments of the most amazing church developments of the most amazing church developments that we've seen in in centuries if not that we've seen in in centuries if not that we've seen in in centuries if not the last 2,000 years, and yet the last 2,000 years, and yet the last 2,000 years, and yet you also then would see, especially you also then would see, especially you also then would see, especially since 2018 and the crackdown on Early since 2018 and the crackdown on Early since 2018 and the crackdown on Early Rain Church, that China has reverted to Rain Church, that China has reverted to Rain Church, that China has reverted to a much harsher posture, a much harsher posture, a much harsher posture, one that's ongoing at this very moment one that's ongoing at this very moment one that's ongoing at this very moment toward churches. toward churches. toward churches. This is a trend in China, a country of This is a trend in China, a country of This is a trend in China, a country of uniquely expansive influence, not only uniquely expansive influence, not only uniquely expansive influence, not only in history, just remarkable throughout in history, just remarkable throughout in history, just remarkable throughout history, but certainly today, history, but certainly today, history, but certainly today, let alone where things are going to be let alone where things are going to be let alone where things are going to be going in the future. No doubt, these going in the future. No doubt, these going in the future. No doubt, these conversations are going to be very, I conversations are going to be very, I conversations are going to be very, I mean, of our of our world are very very mean, of our of our world are very very mean, of our of our world are very very much going to be China-centric for a much going to be China-centric for a much going to be China-centric for a variety of reasons. But China's long variety of reasons. But China's long variety of reasons. But China's long vacillated between openness toward the vacillated between openness toward the vacillated between openness toward the West and being closed. We've seen both West and being closed. We've seen both West and being closed. We've seen both happen these last 25 years. We're in happen these last 25 years. We're in happen these last 25 years. We're in that closed part right now.

that closed part right now. that closed part right now. And so, when it comes to not only church And so, when it comes to not only church And so, when it comes to not only church trends, but broader trends, but broader trends, but broader broader geopolitical trends, you can see broader geopolitical trends, you can see broader geopolitical trends, you can see now China emerging as a key figure in now China emerging as a key figure in now China emerging as a key figure in their in ongoing opposition. their in ongoing opposition. their in ongoing opposition. Think about along with North Korea, Think about along with North Korea, Think about along with North Korea, Iran, Russia, in opposition toward the Iran, Russia, in opposition toward the Iran, Russia, in opposition toward the West in general, but then the United West in general, but then the United West in general, but then the United United States in particular. Um United States in particular. Um United States in particular. Um but that's not the only place where but that's not the only place where but that's not the only place where we've seen this kind of response to the we've seen this kind of response to the we've seen this kind of response to the West and West and West and could be good things, could be bad could be good things, could be bad could be good things, could be bad things, but we've seen this also in things, but we've seen this also in things, but we've seen this also in India. Um the subcontinent, another India. Um the subcontinent, another India. Um the subcontinent, another massive change where you're seeing a massive change where you're seeing a massive change where you're seeing a significant development of persecution significant development of persecution significant development of persecution in the last 20-25 years, especially in in the last 20-25 years, especially in in the last 20-25 years, especially in the northern northern parts, but you've the northern northern parts, but you've the northern northern parts, but you've seen it an uprising of of Hindu seen it an uprising of of Hindu seen it an uprising of of Hindu nationalism uh in India identity and uh nationalism uh in India identity and uh nationalism uh in India identity and uh one of the most gripping stories of one of the most gripping stories of one of the most gripping stories of really all time in missionary work and really all time in missionary work and really all time in missionary work and certainly missionary persecution. I can certainly missionary persecution. I can certainly missionary persecution. I can hardly ever get through it without just hardly ever get through it without just hardly ever get through it without just weeping would be the murder of Graham weeping would be the murder of Graham weeping would be the murder of Graham Staines, the Australian missionary and Staines, the Australian missionary and Staines, the Australian missionary and his two sons in the 1999 in Northeast his two sons in the 1999 in Northeast his two sons in the 1999 in Northeast India. That's That's right before this India. That's That's right before this India. That's That's right before this time period that we're looking at, but time period that we're looking at, but time period that we're looking at, but it's reflective of of this vacillation it's reflective of of this vacillation it's reflective of of this vacillation between times of of significant openness between times of of significant openness between times of of significant openness to Christian expansion around the world, to Christian expansion around the world, to Christian expansion around the world, but then often a harsh uh pushback but then often a harsh uh pushback but then often a harsh uh pushback against that. And against that. And against that. And as we look forward in the next 25 years, as we look forward in the next 25 years, as we look forward in the next 25 years, um we can look to see Remember the um we can look to see Remember the um we can look to see Remember the Africa story that we started with here.

Africa story that we started with here. Africa story that we started with here. We can expect there to be a significant We can expect there to be a significant We can expect there to be a significant frontier of conflict across Africa frontier of conflict across Africa frontier of conflict across Africa between the the spread and the growth of between the the spread and the growth of between the the spread and the growth of Islam as well as that growth of Islam as well as that growth of Islam as well as that growth of Christianity over the last 25-plus plus Christianity over the last 25-plus plus Christianity over the last 25-plus plus years. Um no doubt that's part of the years. Um no doubt that's part of the years. Um no doubt that's part of the ongoing case in Nigeria. There's more ongoing case in Nigeria. There's more ongoing case in Nigeria. There's more attention lately uh from celebrities, attention lately uh from celebrities, attention lately uh from celebrities, from politicians about this persecution from politicians about this persecution from politicians about this persecution of Christians in Nigeria. There appears of Christians in Nigeria. There appears of Christians in Nigeria. There appears to be nothing anybody apparently is able to be nothing anybody apparently is able to be nothing anybody apparently is able or willing to do about it. It's just a a or willing to do about it. It's just a a or willing to do about it. It's just a a horrible a part of what we're living horrible a part of what we're living horrible a part of what we're living with today or what our brothers and with today or what our brothers and with today or what our brothers and sisters in Africa are living in parts of sisters in Africa are living in parts of sisters in Africa are living in parts of Africa or dealing with today. Um so I Africa or dealing with today. Um so I Africa or dealing with today. Um so I guess the question going forward is if guess the question going forward is if guess the question going forward is if we're seeing a response of persecution we're seeing a response of persecution we're seeing a response of persecution um to the you know large global um to the you know large global um to the you know large global expansion of the church in the in the expansion of the church in the in the expansion of the church in the in the 20th century, 20th century, 20th century, are we going to see that persecution are we going to see that persecution are we going to see that persecution lead more to situations like Iran, lead more to situations like Iran, lead more to situations like Iran, which which replaced China as the which which replaced China as the which which replaced China as the fastest growing church in the world, or fastest growing church in the world, or fastest growing church in the world, or are we going to see the really you know are we going to see the really you know are we going to see the really you know the the the boot being stamped down the the the boot being stamped down the the the boot being stamped down again? And of course, as we're recording again? And of course, as we're recording again? And of course, as we're recording this, this, this, that remains to be seen in Iran. So it that remains to be seen in Iran. So it that remains to be seen in Iran. So it could go either way. I I pray that we could go either way. I I pray that we could go either way. I I pray that we would not have the same dynamic we just would not have the same dynamic we just would not have the same dynamic we just saw in China and India. Expansion of the saw in China and India. Expansion of the saw in China and India. Expansion of the church, response by the government to to church, response by the government to to church, response by the government to to crack down substantially, but I fear crack down substantially, but I fear crack down substantially, but I fear certainly that it could be. That's such certainly that it could be. That's such certainly that it could be. That's such a hard story a hard story a hard story when there's freedom and then it's taken when there's freedom and then it's taken when there's freedom and then it's taken away. It also reminds me of Afghanistan, away. It also reminds me of Afghanistan, away. It also reminds me of Afghanistan, right? Where you had some freedom under right? Where you had some freedom under right? Where you had some freedom under an American um an American um an American um government such that it was um and then

government such that it was um and then government such that it was um and then a uh down after that. And then it just a uh down after that. And then it just a uh down after that. And then it just it's uh extraordinarily difficult for it's uh extraordinarily difficult for it's uh extraordinarily difficult for the Christians who are left there. the Christians who are left there. the Christians who are left there. That's really hard. Um, shout out to That's really hard. Um, shout out to That's really hard. Um, shout out to Sarah Zylstra's podcast recorded Escape Sarah Zylstra's podcast recorded Escape Sarah Zylstra's podcast recorded Escape from Kabul. Uh certainly one of the most from Kabul. Uh certainly one of the most from Kabul. Uh certainly one of the most important pieces of of media and one of important pieces of of media and one of important pieces of of media and one of the most important stories that we've the most important stories that we've the most important stories that we've told at TGC in these last 20 plus years. told at TGC in these last 20 plus years. told at TGC in these last 20 plus years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just encouraging to see even Yeah, it's just encouraging to see even Yeah, it's just encouraging to see even in the darkness that there's some light in the darkness that there's some light in the darkness that there's some light and and God is still protecting and and and God is still protecting and and and God is still protecting and caring for his church. Um, even when it caring for his church. Um, even when it caring for his church. Um, even when it feels like, man, that's really unfair feels like, man, that's really unfair feels like, man, that's really unfair and why did history turn that way? and why did history turn that way? and why did history turn that way? Um, it's true. So, we have also we're Um, it's true. So, we have also we're Um, it's true. So, we have also we're seeing a lot of challenges to the church seeing a lot of challenges to the church seeing a lot of challenges to the church around the world. We're also seeing around the world. We're also seeing around the world. We're also seeing challenges to the church in Western challenges to the church in Western challenges to the church in Western countries. Um, most notably places like countries. Um, most notably places like countries. Um, most notably places like Europe, Australia, and Canada. Not from Europe, Australia, and Canada. Not from Europe, Australia, and Canada. Not from persecution, um, but maybe from this persecution, um, but maybe from this persecution, um, but maybe from this apathy that comes to seems to come with apathy that comes to seems to come with apathy that comes to seems to come with growing affluence, right? We see this growing affluence, right? We see this growing affluence, right? We see this for decades we saw the United States was for decades we saw the United States was for decades we saw the United States was actually an outlier. Um, as countries actually an outlier. Um, as countries actually an outlier. Um, as countries got more wealthy, they did move more got more wealthy, they did move more got more wealthy, they did move more more away from religion. Um, but number more away from religion. Um, but number more away from religion. Um, but number seven on our list today is the seven on our list today is the seven on our list today is the de-churching of America. Mike, you wrote de-churching of America. Mike, you wrote de-churching of America. Mike, you wrote a whole book about this. What did you a whole book about this. What did you a whole book about this. What did you find? Yeah, so when we wrote this book a find? Yeah, so when we wrote this book a find? Yeah, so when we wrote this book a couple years ago and um couple years ago and um couple years ago and um it was based on research in 2022, posted it was based on research in 2022, posted it was based on research in 2022, posted in 2023. And you know, it during that in 2023. And you know, it during that in 2023. And you know, it during that time we learned that 40 million time we learned that 40 million time we learned that 40 million Americans, basically one in six US Americans, basically one in six US Americans, basically one in six US adults, had stopped going to church. And adults, had stopped going to church. And adults, had stopped going to church. And that was primarily over the last 25 to that was primarily over the last 25 to that was primarily over the last 25 to 30 years. Um, I do have new data on

30 years. Um, I do have new data on 30 years. Um, I do have new data on this. I'm in the middle of writing a a this. I'm in the middle of writing a a this. I'm in the middle of writing a a new book on this. new book on this. new book on this. Uh probably titled um The Great Uh probably titled um The Great Uh probably titled um The Great Spiritual Migration. And we have updated Spiritual Migration. And we have updated Spiritual Migration. And we have updated data and this storyline won't be going data and this storyline won't be going data and this storyline won't be going away. Um, it's actually more significant away. Um, it's actually more significant away. Um, it's actually more significant now than than what it was. now than than what it was. now than than what it was. Um, Um, Um, you'll have to wait for for that to come you'll have to wait for for that to come you'll have to wait for for that to come out to know what the new numbers are, out to know what the new numbers are, out to know what the new numbers are, but I do know what they are. I was kind but I do know what they are. I was kind but I do know what they are. I was kind of hoping you're You're to break big of hoping you're You're to break big of hoping you're You're to break big news on my podcast here, Mike. Yeah, I news on my podcast here, Mike. Yeah, I news on my podcast here, Mike. Yeah, I should hope so. I'd love to. I I I wait should hope so. I'd love to. I I I wait should hope so. I'd love to. I I I wait for the book. for the book. for the book. Wait for the book. I'll see that a year Wait for the book. I'll see that a year Wait for the book. I'll see that a year in advance. Um but but the situation is in advance. Um but but the situation is in advance. Um but but the situation is is actually is very significant and it's is actually is very significant and it's is actually is very significant and it's severe and it is getting worse. severe and it is getting worse. severe and it is getting worse. And so, the you know, this dynamic And so, the you know, this dynamic And so, the you know, this dynamic it on the one hand, it seems scary and it on the one hand, it seems scary and it on the one hand, it seems scary and it is. Um but there were what we found it is. Um but there were what we found it is. Um but there were what we found in in that research was was was that in in that research was was was that in in that research was was was that there was actually a lot of hope in the there was actually a lot of hope in the there was actually a lot of hope in the middle of all the bad news. You know, middle of all the bad news. You know, middle of all the bad news. You know, most of the people who had left most of the people who had left most of the people who had left about three out of four people is what about three out of four people is what about three out of four people is what we called people who were casually we called people who were casually we called people who were casually dechurched as opposed to uh 25% that we dechurched as opposed to uh 25% that we dechurched as opposed to uh 25% that we categorized and called dechurched categorized and called dechurched categorized and called dechurched casualties.

casualties. casualties. The casually dechurched left um not The casually dechurched left um not The casually dechurched left um not because of some significant pain point because of some significant pain point because of some significant pain point or church hurt or with some big, you or church hurt or with some big, you or church hurt or with some big, you know, baggage or bugaboo, you know, um know, baggage or bugaboo, you know, um know, baggage or bugaboo, you know, um but the as opposed to people who left but the as opposed to people who left but the as opposed to people who left with a high degree of intentionality, with a high degree of intentionality, with a high degree of intentionality, with hurt, um with big issues. And so, with hurt, um with big issues. And so, with hurt, um with big issues. And so, most of the people who were casually most of the people who were casually most of the people who were casually dechurched were more than willing to dechurched were more than willing to dechurched were more than willing to return to a local church. Um but the return to a local church. Um but the return to a local church. Um but the the numbers were were not as high for the numbers were were not as high for the numbers were were not as high for for those who were, you know, dechurched for those who were, you know, dechurched for those who were, you know, dechurched casualties. So, that trend of that casualties. So, that trend of that casualties. So, that trend of that movement of one in six, you know, US movement of one in six, you know, US movement of one in six, you know, US adults, you know, it's the largest and adults, you know, it's the largest and adults, you know, it's the largest and fastest religious shift in our country's fastest religious shift in our country's fastest religious shift in our country's history. You know, it's larger than the history. You know, it's larger than the history. You know, it's larger than the first and second great awakening and all first and second great awakening and all first and second great awakening and all the Ram Crusades combined and it was the Ram Crusades combined and it was the Ram Crusades combined and it was faster than all of those um all of those faster than all of those um all of those faster than all of those um all of those big moments in US religious history as big moments in US religious history as big moments in US religious history as well. well. well. And so, this is definitely something And so, this is definitely something And so, this is definitely something that left a indelible mark, you know, in that left a indelible mark, you know, in that left a indelible mark, you know, in the history of our country. You know, the history of our country. You know, the history of our country. You know, the churching of America um was not the churching of America um was not the churching of America um was not peaked um peaked um peaked um contrary to popular belief in 1776.

contrary to popular belief in 1776. contrary to popular belief in 1776. Um actually not many people went to Um actually not many people went to Um actually not many people went to church in 1776. church in 1776. church in 1776. Uh only about 17% of Americans went to Uh only about 17% of Americans went to Uh only about 17% of Americans went to church in 1776. church in 1776. church in 1776. Um, the the peak churching of America Um, the the peak churching of America Um, the the peak churching of America was around the 1970s and peaked at about was around the 1970s and peaked at about was around the 1970s and peaked at about 70% and we're now kind of hovering in 70% and we're now kind of hovering in 70% and we're now kind of hovering in the mid the mid the mid uh, mid to high 40s. So, call it 45 to uh, mid to high 40s. So, call it 45 to uh, mid to high 40s. So, call it 45 to 47% or so 47% or so 47% or so um, today. um, today. um, today. Um, that has plateaued a little bit um, Um, that has plateaued a little bit um, Um, that has plateaued a little bit um, but I think that that plateau of the but I think that that plateau of the but I think that that plateau of the churching of America is temporary and churching of America is temporary and churching of America is temporary and because what what happens every single because what what happens every single because what what happens every single day is you have people in Gen Z who are day is you have people in Gen Z who are day is you have people in Gen Z who are turning 17 to 18 turning 17 to 18 turning 17 to 18 and becoming adults and every day you and becoming adults and every day you and becoming adults and every day you have people from the greatest generation have people from the greatest generation have people from the greatest generation and the boomer generation who are and the boomer generation who are and the boomer generation who are passing away. And even though there's a passing away. And even though there's a passing away. And even though there's a lot of good stories, amazing stories lot of good stories, amazing stories lot of good stories, amazing stories about what's happening about what's happening about what's happening um, among young people in in Gen Z, um, among young people in in Gen Z, um, among young people in in Gen Z, uh, as when you zoom out in an uh, as when you zoom out in an uh, as when you zoom out in an aggregate, they are far less uh, aggregate, they are far less uh, aggregate, they are far less uh, religious and far less Christian than religious and far less Christian than religious and far less Christian than the greatest generation or the baby the greatest generation or the baby the greatest generation or the baby boomer generation. And so, the net boomer generation. And so, the net boomer generation. And so, the net result of that generational replacement result of that generational replacement result of that generational replacement is that more decline is in our future.

is that more decline is in our future. is that more decline is in our future. And that's really interesting because And that's really interesting because And that's really interesting because campus ministers tell me that they're campus ministers tell me that they're campus ministers tell me that they're also less hostile. So, it it feels like also less hostile. So, it it feels like also less hostile. So, it it feels like we went through as we went through sort we went through as we went through sort we went through as we went through sort of the exvangelical stage of dechurching of the exvangelical stage of dechurching of the exvangelical stage of dechurching which was angry, maybe also paired with which was angry, maybe also paired with which was angry, maybe also paired with like awokeness on campus that would kick like awokeness on campus that would kick like awokeness on campus that would kick off your campus ministry or off your campus ministry or off your campus ministry or disinvite a speaker. Um, those that's disinvite a speaker. Um, those that's disinvite a speaker. Um, those that's not what we're seeing anymore. It's not what we're seeing anymore. It's not what we're seeing anymore. It's maybe it's just more apathy and oh, maybe it's just more apathy and oh, maybe it's just more apathy and oh, that's cool that you want to do that. that's cool that you want to do that. that's cool that you want to do that. I'm probably just going to keep I'm probably just going to keep I'm probably just going to keep scrolling Tik Tok. scrolling Tik Tok. scrolling Tik Tok. Uh, for me one of the major theological Uh, for me one of the major theological Uh, for me one of the major theological implications here has been the shift in implications here has been the shift in implications here has been the shift in apologetics and that very much reflects apologetics and that very much reflects apologetics and that very much reflects the mission that we have at the Keller the mission that we have at the Keller the mission that we have at the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. You Center for Cultural Apologetics. You Center for Cultural Apologetics. You kind of let off with this, Sarah, in the kind of let off with this, Sarah, in the kind of let off with this, Sarah, in the podcast, this recognition that um, not podcast, this recognition that um, not podcast, this recognition that um, not for everybody as Mike is pointing out, for everybody as Mike is pointing out, for everybody as Mike is pointing out, but for a lot of Americans in this but for a lot of Americans in this but for a lot of Americans in this generational replacement, um, you see generational replacement, um, you see generational replacement, um, you see older generations that had some kind of older generations that had some kind of older generations that had some kind of experience with church, and for some of experience with church, and for some of experience with church, and for some of them it was good, for others, kind of them it was good, for others, kind of them it was good, for others, kind of take it or leave it, for some of them it take it or leave it, for some of them it take it or leave it, for some of them it was very negative.

was very negative. was very negative. And so a lot of apologetics is dealing And so a lot of apologetics is dealing And so a lot of apologetics is dealing with with dealing with a lot of people with with dealing with a lot of people with with dealing with a lot of people with very highly negative views reacting with very highly negative views reacting with very highly negative views reacting to something, you know, in their to something, you know, in their to something, you know, in their personal experience or their broader personal experience or their broader personal experience or their broader research, um, or learning about about research, um, or learning about about research, um, or learning about about Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. But what you see now more often are But what you see now more often are But what you see now more often are people who just don't have any religious people who just don't have any religious people who just don't have any religious concepts at all. concepts at all. concepts at all. They don't have categories for sin, they They don't have categories for sin, they They don't have categories for sin, they don't have categories for for a creator, don't have categories for for a creator, don't have categories for for a creator, they don't have categories for guilt, they don't have categories for guilt, they don't have categories for guilt, uh, uh, uh, now they might with shame because now they might with shame because now they might with shame because especially some of the things we've especially some of the things we've especially some of the things we've talked about with the internet, they're talked about with the internet, they're talked about with the internet, they're um, but this has required a major shift um, but this has required a major shift um, but this has required a major shift in our apologetics. Obviously, no shift in our apologetics. Obviously, no shift in our apologetics. Obviously, no shift in what we teach from scripture, no in what we teach from scripture, no in what we teach from scripture, no shift in the gospel message itself, but shift in the gospel message itself, but shift in the gospel message itself, but an awareness that in these last 25 years an awareness that in these last 25 years an awareness that in these last 25 years we often have to start further back in we often have to start further back in we often have to start further back in our evangelism. We have to start further our evangelism. We have to start further our evangelism. We have to start further back in our in our apologetics. I shared back in our in our apologetics. I shared back in our in our apologetics. I shared this many times, but it it remains true this many times, but it it remains true this many times, but it it remains true especially as we're looking at a especially as we're looking at a especially as we're looking at a 30,000-ft retrospective since the year 30,000-ft retrospective since the year 30,000-ft retrospective since the year 2000. But one of the most significant 2000. But one of the most significant 2000. But one of the most significant apologetic books, uh, in the last 25 apologetic books, uh, in the last 25 apologetic books, uh, in the last 25 years would be Tim Keller's Reason for years would be Tim Keller's Reason for years would be Tim Keller's Reason for God.

God. God. But what's interesting is that he then But what's interesting is that he then But what's interesting is that he then wrote a very different apologetic book wrote a very different apologetic book wrote a very different apologetic book in 2016 called Making Sense of God. And in 2016 called Making Sense of God. And in 2016 called Making Sense of God. And that was reflective of many of those that was reflective of many of those that was reflective of many of those shifts recognizing we need to start shifts recognizing we need to start shifts recognizing we need to start having basic conversations about our having basic conversations about our having basic conversations about our cultural narratives. Now, what stories cultural narratives. Now, what stories cultural narratives. Now, what stories we're living by, what stories are we're living by, what stories are we're living by, what stories are replacing, and then even, uh, you know, replacing, and then even, uh, you know, replacing, and then even, uh, you know, what replacing, supplanting the what replacing, supplanting the what replacing, supplanting the Christian story as the one that animates Christian story as the one that animates Christian story as the one that animates us personally and animates our culture us personally and animates our culture us personally and animates our culture more broadly. But like you said, Sarah, more broadly. But like you said, Sarah, more broadly. But like you said, Sarah, well, there are a lot of apologetic well, there are a lot of apologetic well, there are a lot of apologetic dimensions here. These are questions of dimensions here. These are questions of dimensions here. These are questions of philosophy, um how we teach. There are a philosophy, um how we teach. There are a philosophy, um how we teach. There are a lot of other issues here that are much lot of other issues here that are much lot of other issues here that are much more mundane or mundane. Uh we think you more mundane or mundane. Uh we think you more mundane or mundane. Uh we think you mentioned this earlier about mentioned this earlier about mentioned this earlier about secularization and affluence. Um that secularization and affluence. Um that secularization and affluence. Um that may look one part it look one way in a may look one part it look one way in a may look one part it look one way in a developing part of the world. It may developing part of the world. It may developing part of the world. It may look very different in a developed part look very different in a developed part look very different in a developed part of the world because there's no doubt of the world because there's no doubt of the world because there's no doubt one of the major things that keeps one of the major things that keeps one of the major things that keeps people away from church would be people away from church would be people away from church would be affluence, vacations, second homes, affluence, vacations, second homes, affluence, vacations, second homes, travel sports, all sorts of different travel sports, all sorts of different travel sports, all sorts of different things that have really increased with things that have really increased with things that have really increased with that 25 years years of affluence. Um that 25 years years of affluence. Um that 25 years years of affluence. Um but I also think but I also think but I also think there's it's not an entire like you said there's it's not an entire like you said there's it's not an entire like you said Sarah and both of you have pointed out Sarah and both of you have pointed out Sarah and both of you have pointed out there are these mega trends but then we there are these mega trends but then we there are these mega trends but then we also see positive things very very also see positive things very very also see positive things very very locally. And I don't know what you guys locally. And I don't know what you guys locally. And I don't know what you guys think about this. I'm interested to get think about this. I'm interested to get think about this. I'm interested to get your thoughts Sarah cuz you talked to so your thoughts Sarah cuz you talked to so your thoughts Sarah cuz you talked to so many different church leaders all the many different church leaders all the many different church leaders all the time.

time. time. We do know statistically We do know statistically We do know statistically that more Americans attend larger that more Americans attend larger that more Americans attend larger churches than before. churches than before. churches than before. Used to be that most of us attended Used to be that most of us attended Used to be that most of us attended smaller churches but that's been smaller churches but that's been smaller churches but that's been shifting toward more of us attending shifting toward more of us attending shifting toward more of us attending large churches like I said I mentioned large churches like I said I mentioned large churches like I said I mentioned places like Church of the Highlands here places like Church of the Highlands here places like Church of the Highlands here in Birmingham, Alabama earlier. in Birmingham, Alabama earlier. in Birmingham, Alabama earlier. Um so but I I think just in general Um so but I I think just in general Um so but I I think just in general the quality of of what I see in what the quality of of what I see in what the quality of of what I see in what churches are teaching, of their churches are teaching, of their churches are teaching, of their educational responsibilities, their educational responsibilities, their educational responsibilities, their discipleship programming discipleship programming discipleship programming of all sorts of different really of all sorts of different really of all sorts of different really positive metrics. If I just looked at my positive metrics. If I just looked at my positive metrics. If I just looked at my own community, I'd say own community, I'd say own community, I'd say there may or may not be fewer people in there may or may not be fewer people in there may or may not be fewer people in the church. I'm not quite sure the church. I'm not quite sure the church. I'm not quite sure but I feel like the churches are but I feel like the churches are but I feel like the churches are stronger. stronger. stronger. I know I can't say that universally. I know I can't say that universally. I know I can't say that universally. Sarah, do you what do you how do you Sarah, do you what do you how do you Sarah, do you what do you how do you think about that? You have such a big think about that? You have such a big think about that? You have such a big picture view on this. Yeah, I definitely picture view on this. Yeah, I definitely picture view on this. Yeah, I definitely think that is true. Um I think even just think that is true. Um I think even just think that is true. Um I think even just looking at the resources, um even when looking at the resources, um even when looking at the resources, um even when you're just looking online resources for you're just looking online resources for you're just looking online resources for Sunday school curriculum, I can remember Sunday school curriculum, I can remember Sunday school curriculum, I can remember looking for Sunday school curriculum looking for Sunday school curriculum looking for Sunday school curriculum like, you know, 15 years ago when I was like, you know, 15 years ago when I was like, you know, 15 years ago when I was running a program at a church and not running a program at a church and not running a program at a church and not being able to find hardly anything. That being able to find hardly anything. That being able to find hardly anything. That was before Trevin did um, Gospel was before Trevin did um, Gospel was before Trevin did um, Gospel Project. And so, it's just um, Project. And so, it's just um, Project. And so, it's just um, yeah, the explosion of resources has yeah, the explosion of resources has yeah, the explosion of resources has been tremendous. I think the education been tremendous. I think the education been tremendous. I think the education in the seminaries has gotten better.

in the seminaries has gotten better. in the seminaries has gotten better. I live by Midwestern and you can tell in I live by Midwestern and you can tell in I live by Midwestern and you can tell in the water of Kansas City there is all the water of Kansas City there is all the water of Kansas City there is all kinds of good reformed teaching and kinds of good reformed teaching and kinds of good reformed teaching and excellent pastors when we looked for excellent pastors when we looked for excellent pastors when we looked for churches we could have, you know, we churches we could have, you know, we churches we could have, you know, we went to six or seven of them when we went to six or seven of them when we went to six or seven of them when we first moved here a couple years ago and first moved here a couple years ago and first moved here a couple years ago and we could have kept going. We just were we could have kept going. We just were we could have kept going. We just were finally like, we're just going to have finally like, we're just going to have finally like, we're just going to have to stop. Usually you'd be like, where's to stop. Usually you'd be like, where's to stop. Usually you'd be like, where's the one church that we could get it on the one church that we could get it on the one church that we could get it on with? And I was like, we could go to any with? And I was like, we could go to any with? And I was like, we could go to any of these happily. Um, and so, I do think of these happily. Um, and so, I do think of these happily. Um, and so, I do think I think that's true. Um, So, could be so I think that's true. Um, So, could be so I think that's true. Um, So, could be so it is it is a theological story of I it is it is a theological story of I it is it is a theological story of I mean, you could if we were doing the top mean, you could if we were doing the top mean, you could if we were doing the top 25, which I just want for everybody 25, which I just want for everybody 25, which I just want for everybody who's watching and listening right now, who's watching and listening right now, who's watching and listening right now, you can thank these two from keeping me you can thank these two from keeping me you can thank these two from keeping me from doing a top 25 list. That's a from doing a top 25 list. That's a from doing a top 25 list. That's a mercy. But, if But, if but if we do ever do a top 25 list, but if we do ever do a top 25 list, but if we do ever do a top 25 list, you'd have places like Midwestern you'd have places like Midwestern you'd have places like Midwestern Seminary in that list. Now, the the lot Seminary in that list. Now, the the lot Seminary in that list. Now, the the lot of the changes that we've written about of the changes that we've written about of the changes that we've written about a lot and I wrote about young us as a lot and I wrote about young us as a lot and I wrote about young us as reformed in Southern Seminary, that reformed in Southern Seminary, that reformed in Southern Seminary, that happened in the 1990s. That started happened in the 1990s. That started happened in the 1990s. That started there. It continued in the 2000s. But, there. It continued in the 2000s. But, there. It continued in the 2000s. But, the Midwestern Baptist story is the Midwestern Baptist story is the Midwestern Baptist story is definitely been um, in these last 25 definitely been um, in these last 25 definitely been um, in these last 25 years and it is a story not only of years and it is a story not only of years and it is a story not only of growth. So, we've seen some seminaries growth. So, we've seen some seminaries growth. So, we've seen some seminaries like my own alma mater Trinity in like my own alma mater Trinity in like my own alma mater Trinity in Chicago um, changing and declining Chicago um, changing and declining Chicago um, changing and declining dramatically, but as you've you've you dramatically, but as you've you've you dramatically, but as you've you've you and I have done the research here, and I have done the research here, and I have done the research here, Sarah. We've talked it over quite a bit.

Sarah. We've talked it over quite a bit. Sarah. We've talked it over quite a bit. Um, the number of students in seminary Um, the number of students in seminary Um, the number of students in seminary preparing for even just pastoral preparing for even just pastoral preparing for even just pastoral ministry in the MDiv, that's been stable ministry in the MDiv, that's been stable ministry in the MDiv, that's been stable during this time for evangelicals, for during this time for evangelicals, for during this time for evangelicals, for especially for the seminaries that we especially for the seminaries that we especially for the seminaries that we work with. And that's a very notable work with. And that's a very notable work with. And that's a very notable point because correct me if I'm wrong point because correct me if I'm wrong point because correct me if I'm wrong here, Mike, but here, Mike, but here, Mike, but evangelical identity certainly last 25 evangelical identity certainly last 25 evangelical identity certainly last 25 years as a percentage of the population, years as a percentage of the population, years as a percentage of the population, has remained roughly stable, correct? has remained roughly stable, correct? has remained roughly stable, correct? While mainline and Catholic identify, While mainline and Catholic identify, While mainline and Catholic identify, you know, affiliation has declined you know, affiliation has declined you know, affiliation has declined really substantially. Yeah, really substantially. Yeah, really substantially. Yeah, the I'll give you I'll give a little the I'll give you I'll give a little the I'll give you I'll give a little teaser of what's coming. Um teaser of what's coming. Um teaser of what's coming. Um the retention rates among mainline the retention rates among mainline the retention rates among mainline Protestants, if you're born mainline Protestants, if you're born mainline Protestants, if you're born mainline Protestant, um only 66 of 100 will, you Protestant, um only 66 of 100 will, you Protestant, um only 66 of 100 will, you know, will continue um with that through know, will continue um with that through know, will continue um with that through adulthood. adulthood. adulthood. And that's 70% if you're Roman Catholic, And that's 70% if you're Roman Catholic, And that's 70% if you're Roman Catholic, and a little bit better um at 73% if and a little bit better um at 73% if and a little bit better um at 73% if you're Evangelical. But what's different you're Evangelical. But what's different you're Evangelical. But what's different about Evangelicals from Roman Catholic about Evangelicals from Roman Catholic about Evangelicals from Roman Catholic and mainline is the the number of the and mainline is the the number of the and mainline is the the number of the percentage of people who are converts.

percentage of people who are converts. percentage of people who are converts. Um there are Um there are Um there are if you're in a room of um 100 Roman if you're in a room of um 100 Roman if you're in a room of um 100 Roman Catholics, only five of them um are Catholics, only five of them um are Catholics, only five of them um are converts to that. Um the rate of converts to that. Um the rate of converts to that. Um the rate of conversion into Evangelicalism is about conversion into Evangelicalism is about conversion into Evangelicalism is about five times that rate. So, five times that rate. So, five times that rate. So, Evangelicals are near replacement um Evangelicals are near replacement um Evangelicals are near replacement um when, you know, you have 73% retention, when, you know, you have 73% retention, when, you know, you have 73% retention, and then you have 25% and then you have 25% and then you have 25% um who are um who are um who are um converting. So, you know, you only um converting. So, you know, you only um converting. So, you know, you only have about a 2 to 3% decline um there in have about a 2 to 3% decline um there in have about a 2 to 3% decline um there in Evangelical Evangelical Evangelical um identity when you put retention plus um identity when you put retention plus um identity when you put retention plus conversion. conversion. conversion. Hm. That's really interesting. Hm. That's really interesting. Hm. That's really interesting. I mean, one last thing just to to add on I mean, one last thing just to to add on I mean, one last thing just to to add on here, um here, um here, um another major development that we've another major development that we've another major development that we've seen in these last 25 years seen in these last 25 years seen in these last 25 years theologically, um you think of books theologically, um you think of books theologically, um you think of books like Charles Taylor's A Secular Age that like Charles Taylor's A Secular Age that like Charles Taylor's A Secular Age that have very much changed the ways that we have very much changed the ways that we have very much changed the ways that we think about unbelief. think about unbelief. think about unbelief. We think about it not merely as a We think about it not merely as a We think about it not merely as a rational category, not merely as a rational category, not merely as a rational category, not merely as a political category, but think about it political category, but think about it political category, but think about it something about we think about in terms something about we think about in terms something about we think about in terms of social imaginaries, what becomes of social imaginaries, what becomes of social imaginaries, what becomes plausible in your society. And it turns plausible in your society. And it turns plausible in your society. And it turns out that religious belief can be out that religious belief can be out that religious belief can be dramatically undermined by all sorts of dramatically undermined by all sorts of dramatically undermined by all sorts of different factors. Again, like I said different factors. Again, like I said different factors. Again, like I said earlier about your cultural narratives earlier about your cultural narratives earlier about your cultural narratives that exclude the Christian story.

that exclude the Christian story. that exclude the Christian story. Um so, secularism can take shapes where Um so, secularism can take shapes where Um so, secularism can take shapes where people are not necessarily opposed to people are not necessarily opposed to people are not necessarily opposed to God. So, as you know, what's what's God. So, as you know, what's what's God. So, as you know, what's what's interesting is what Mike's talking about interesting is what Mike's talking about interesting is what Mike's talking about with the great de-churching is not with the great de-churching is not with the great de-churching is not primarily an erosion of belief in God or primarily an erosion of belief in God or primarily an erosion of belief in God or even people saying that they're that even people saying that they're that even people saying that they're that they still pray or even that they they still pray or even that they they still pray or even that they believe in miracles, but it's truly a believe in miracles, but it's truly a believe in miracles, but it's truly a disaffiliation from church and a disaffiliation from church and a disaffiliation from church and a decentering of God as the center of decentering of God as the center of decentering of God as the center of their lives or as any kind of authority their lives or as any kind of authority their lives or as any kind of authority in their lives. in their lives. in their lives. It's not new to the last 25 years, but It's not new to the last 25 years, but It's not new to the last 25 years, but in the last 25 years, Charles Taylor in the last 25 years, Charles Taylor in the last 25 years, Charles Taylor certainly has been chief among those uh certainly has been chief among those uh certainly has been chief among those uh critics who've helped us to understand critics who've helped us to understand critics who've helped us to understand that dynamic as it relates to the that dynamic as it relates to the that dynamic as it relates to the dramatic um changes that are reflected dramatic um changes that are reflected dramatic um changes that are reflected in the great de-churching. Yeah, which in the great de-churching. Yeah, which in the great de-churching. Yeah, which leads us perfectly into our next um leads us perfectly into our next um leads us perfectly into our next um thing on our list. Number six is the thing on our list. Number six is the thing on our list. Number six is the great awakening which runs from Ferguson great awakening which runs from Ferguson great awakening which runs from Ferguson to Floyd and which certainly calls into to Floyd and which certainly calls into to Floyd and which certainly calls into uh calls us to think about new social uh calls us to think about new social uh calls us to think about new social imaginaries, right? Like what could what imaginaries, right? Like what could what imaginaries, right? Like what could what could be or what can't be? Well, let's could be or what can't be? Well, let's could be or what can't be? Well, let's just kind of establish the the baseline just kind of establish the the baseline just kind of establish the the baseline of what we're talking about here. This of what we're talking about here. This of what we're talking about here. This is another one of these rise and fall is another one of these rise and fall is another one of these rise and fall questions. 25 years is enough that some questions. 25 years is enough that some questions. 25 years is enough that some of these trends will continue. Some of of these trends will continue. Some of of these trends will continue. Some of them have come and gone or at least them have come and gone or at least them have come and gone or at least they've morphed significantly, but we they've morphed significantly, but we they've morphed significantly, but we can go back at least to officer-involved can go back at least to officer-involved can go back at least to officer-involved shootings in Ferguson 2014 to see a more shootings in Ferguson 2014 to see a more shootings in Ferguson 2014 to see a more widespread public protest related to the widespread public protest related to the widespread public protest related to the treatment of of minorities and treatment of of minorities and treatment of of minorities and especially African Americans in our especially African Americans in our especially African Americans in our country today and also historically. Um country today and also historically. Um country today and also historically. Um one of the major trends here and I meant

one of the major trends here and I meant one of the major trends here and I meant to say this earlier as it relates to the to say this earlier as it relates to the to say this earlier as it relates to the the positives with the church, I think the positives with the church, I think the positives with the church, I think the resourcing and discipleship part the resourcing and discipleship part the resourcing and discipleship part that you mentioned earlier uh Sarah that you mentioned earlier uh Sarah that you mentioned earlier uh Sarah that's improved is also is also been that's improved is also is also been that's improved is also is also been helped by the internet. helped by the internet. helped by the internet. Well, in some ways justice has been Well, in some ways justice has been Well, in some ways justice has been helped by the internet because so many helped by the internet because so many helped by the internet because so many different things that we never saw different things that we never saw different things that we never saw before, things that we never would have before, things that we never would have before, things that we never would have known about, things that would have been known about, things that would have been known about, things that would have been covered up covered up covered up we're now seeing. I think it's we're now seeing. I think it's we're now seeing. I think it's specifically very much about the death specifically very much about the death specifically very much about the death of Ahmaud Arbery, imagining that there of Ahmaud Arbery, imagining that there of Ahmaud Arbery, imagining that there would have been no possibility of would have been no possibility of would have been no possibility of justice being done or no no likelihood justice being done or no no likelihood justice being done or no no likelihood of justice being done unless we had some of justice being done unless we had some of justice being done unless we had some of that video video evidence. And that, of that video video evidence. And that, of that video video evidence. And that, of course, is a product of the ubiquity of course, is a product of the ubiquity of course, is a product of the ubiquity of smartphones. Even in the current of smartphones. Even in the current of smartphones. Even in the current situation we've been we've been tracking situation we've been we've been tracking situation we've been we've been tracking lately in Minneapolis, it's very much a lately in Minneapolis, it's very much a lately in Minneapolis, it's very much a story of of having been documented story of of having been documented story of of having been documented essentially in real time essentially in real time essentially in real time um by people with smartphone cameras, um by people with smartphone cameras, um by people with smartphone cameras, which that is an invention of these last which that is an invention of these last which that is an invention of these last 20 25 years. Um even as we look to Iran, 20 25 years. Um even as we look to Iran, 20 25 years. Um even as we look to Iran, what's significant there is to be able what's significant there is to be able what's significant there is to be able to maintain any control you have to shut to maintain any control you have to shut to maintain any control you have to shut down the internet. You've got to close down the internet. You've got to close down the internet. You've got to close everything down. You've got to make it, everything down. You've got to make it, everything down. You've got to make it, you know, eliminate cellular you know, eliminate cellular you know, eliminate cellular communication because otherwise that's communication because otherwise that's communication because otherwise that's what facilitates a lot of these protests what facilitates a lot of these protests what facilitates a lot of these protests as well as awareness of what's as well as awareness of what's as well as awareness of what's happening. I mean, we don't know right happening. I mean, we don't know right happening. I mean, we don't know right now, as we're recording this at least, now, as we're recording this at least, now, as we're recording this at least, what level of atrocities they they could what level of atrocities they they could what level of atrocities they they could be on a scale beyond even what we saw in be on a scale beyond even what we saw in be on a scale beyond even what we saw in Rwanda or they could be more limited. We Rwanda or they could be more limited. We Rwanda or they could be more limited. We don't know which side is winning because don't know which side is winning because don't know which side is winning because of that that blackout there, but

of that that blackout there, but of that that blackout there, but when I look back on just this particular when I look back on just this particular when I look back on just this particular story, it certainly culminates story, it certainly culminates story, it certainly culminates in 2020 after uh George Floyd's filmed in 2020 after uh George Floyd's filmed in 2020 after uh George Floyd's filmed death. death. death. You have there the largest race-related You have there the largest race-related You have there the largest race-related or um protest since the 1960s. or um protest since the 1960s. or um protest since the 1960s. That's very noteworthy in being able to That's very noteworthy in being able to That's very noteworthy in being able to talk about here. talk about here. talk about here. Um really in in a lot of ways this Um really in in a lot of ways this Um really in in a lot of ways this 25-year period was bracketed by books 25-year period was bracketed by books 25-year period was bracketed by books like Divided by Faith, taking a like Divided by Faith, taking a like Divided by Faith, taking a sociological exploration of why um sociological exploration of why um sociological exploration of why um racial integration is especially racial integration is especially racial integration is especially difficult for evangelicals, but then all difficult for evangelicals, but then all difficult for evangelicals, but then all the way to the New York Times bestseller the way to the New York Times bestseller the way to the New York Times bestseller The Color of Compromise, Jemar Tisby, The Color of Compromise, Jemar Tisby, The Color of Compromise, Jemar Tisby, taking a more historical approach that taking a more historical approach that taking a more historical approach that hit those bestseller lists because of hit those bestseller lists because of hit those bestseller lists because of what happened in in 2020, but looking what happened in in 2020, but looking what happened in in 2020, but looking specifically, why do so many evangelical specifically, why do so many evangelical specifically, why do so many evangelical churches have a problem with this? But churches have a problem with this? But churches have a problem with this? But um you also have seen a significant um you also have seen a significant um you also have seen a significant backlash at many different levels, the backlash at many different levels, the backlash at many different levels, the church level, theologically, um and then church level, theologically, um and then church level, theologically, um and then ultimately politically as well, um that ultimately politically as well, um that ultimately politically as well, um that put pushback specifically in the largest put pushback specifically in the largest put pushback specifically in the largest American denomination, the Southern American denomination, the Southern American denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. That started in 2018 Baptist Convention. That started in 2018 Baptist Convention. That started in 2018 and 2019, and in many ways it actually and 2019, and in many ways it actually and 2019, and in many ways it actually feels as though what progress had been feels as though what progress had been feels as though what progress had been made in the 1990s before um this 25-year made in the 1990s before um this 25-year made in the 1990s before um this 25-year year period, it feels like a lot of that year period, it feels like a lot of that year period, it feels like a lot of that to me at least has been undone. Um let to me at least has been undone. Um let to me at least has been undone. Um let alone what people felt like was a lot of alone what people felt like was a lot of alone what people felt like was a lot of progress after another major story progress after another major story progress after another major story that's easy to overlook these last 25 that's easy to overlook these last 25 that's easy to overlook these last 25 years, the election of the first ever years, the election of the first ever years, the election of the first ever African-American president um in African-American president um in African-American president um in history, 2008 with Barack Obama. So,

history, 2008 with Barack Obama. So, history, 2008 with Barack Obama. So, you've had these moments of of hope, you've had these moments of of hope, you've had these moments of of hope, you've had these moments of of pushing you've had these moments of of pushing you've had these moments of of pushing for change, of seeking justice. Um for change, of seeking justice. Um for change, of seeking justice. Um you've seen that mixed up with a lot of you've seen that mixed up with a lot of you've seen that mixed up with a lot of other things, so other things, so other things, so I want to get some some thoughts here I want to get some some thoughts here I want to get some some thoughts here from Mike as well, from Mike as well, from Mike as well, but I I think about a a couple different but I I think about a a couple different but I I think about a a couple different books that we've we've covered at The books that we've we've covered at The books that we've we've covered at The Gospel Coalition over the years that Gospel Coalition over the years that Gospel Coalition over the years that have helped us to be able to put some have helped us to be able to put some have helped us to be able to put some context behind uh the cultural change context behind uh the cultural change context behind uh the cultural change and give some explanation. Um you have and give some explanation. Um you have and give some explanation. Um you have for example Yascha Mounk's book on the for example Yascha Mounk's book on the for example Yascha Mounk's book on the identity, synthesis, and identity, synthesis, and identity, synthesis, and intersectionality. intersectionality. intersectionality. You can see the way that specifically You can see the way that specifically You can see the way that specifically the Gaza attacks on Israel, October 7, the Gaza attacks on Israel, October 7, the Gaza attacks on Israel, October 7, 2023 2023 2023 undermined a lot of the premises of the undermined a lot of the premises of the undermined a lot of the premises of the Great Awokening. Great Awokening. Great Awokening. The idea there in the Great Awokening is The idea there in the Great Awokening is The idea there in the Great Awokening is that the oppressed essentially move to a that the oppressed essentially move to a that the oppressed essentially move to a position of prominence, there's a focus position of prominence, there's a focus position of prominence, there's a focus on them, that their identity as the on them, that their identity as the on them, that their identity as the oppressed is something that gives them a oppressed is something that gives them a oppressed is something that gives them a special credibility or authority special credibility or authority special credibility or authority or a credibility in our culture.

or a credibility in our culture. or a credibility in our culture. But the challenge was when you saw that But the challenge was when you saw that But the challenge was when you saw that confrontation of competing oppressions, confrontation of competing oppressions, confrontation of competing oppressions, it's impossible to adjudicate who gets it's impossible to adjudicate who gets it's impossible to adjudicate who gets to win in that kind of battle between to win in that kind of battle between to win in that kind of battle between Palestinian identity on the one hand and Palestinian identity on the one hand and Palestinian identity on the one hand and and and and oppression, but then on the and and and oppression, but then on the and and and oppression, but then on the other hand um Jews, especially with the other hand um Jews, especially with the other hand um Jews, especially with the history of of the Holocaust. So, that's history of of the Holocaust. So, that's history of of the Holocaust. So, that's part of why this this great awakening part of why this this great awakening part of why this this great awakening synthesis, these identity politics, why synthesis, these identity politics, why synthesis, these identity politics, why they've been in decline um in in the they've been in decline um in in the they've been in decline um in in the last several years, but then also a last several years, but then also a last several years, but then also a really significant contribution recently really significant contribution recently really significant contribution recently from the scholar Musa al-Gharbi in We from the scholar Musa al-Gharbi in We from the scholar Musa al-Gharbi in We Have Never Been Woke, recognizing that Have Never Been Woke, recognizing that Have Never Been Woke, recognizing that going back to another major trend of going back to another major trend of going back to another major trend of these last 25 years, the Great Recession these last 25 years, the Great Recession these last 25 years, the Great Recession in 2008, identifying how in those in 2008, identifying how in those in 2008, identifying how in those moments of economic decline, we produced moments of economic decline, we produced moments of economic decline, we produced too many highly educated people. So, in too many highly educated people. So, in too many highly educated people. So, in a competition for scarce resources, a competition for scarce resources, a competition for scarce resources, those people create new barriers to those people create new barriers to those people create new barriers to entry from people who are outside of the entry from people who are outside of the entry from people who are outside of the elite. And so, he attributes he elite. And so, he attributes he elite. And so, he attributes he attributes that elite overproduction to attributes that elite overproduction to attributes that elite overproduction to the to the rise of this woke culture.

the to the rise of this woke culture. the to the rise of this woke culture. And this is distinct from but co-opts And this is distinct from but co-opts And this is distinct from but co-opts these officer-involved shootings and these officer-involved shootings and these officer-involved shootings and these these legitimate injustices as these these legitimate injustices as these these legitimate injustices as they express themselves, like I said, they express themselves, like I said, they express themselves, like I said, the Arbery case would be a good example. the Arbery case would be a good example. the Arbery case would be a good example. So, there's a distinction between those So, there's a distinction between those So, there's a distinction between those events and then the broader philosophies events and then the broader philosophies events and then the broader philosophies of what make them uh reach this point of of what make them uh reach this point of of what make them uh reach this point of cultural resonance, but he observes that cultural resonance, but he observes that cultural resonance, but he observes that what is left in the wake is not an what is left in the wake is not an what is left in the wake is not an actual material change for people who actual material change for people who actual material change for people who are oppressed. There's not an actual are oppressed. There's not an actual are oppressed. There's not an actual pursuit of justice pursuit of justice pursuit of justice because that wasn't the point of it in because that wasn't the point of it in because that wasn't the point of it in the first place. It was really a the first place. It was really a the first place. It was really a response to economic conditions and a response to economic conditions and a response to economic conditions and a desire to be able to to exclude others desire to be able to to exclude others desire to be able to to exclude others from those elite positions. from those elite positions. from those elite positions. There's plenty to argue about there, but There's plenty to argue about there, but There's plenty to argue about there, but the point is the point is the point is there aren't many things that have there aren't many things that have there aren't many things that have tripped the church up more tripped the church up more tripped the church up more in the last 25 years than the rise and in the last 25 years than the rise and in the last 25 years than the rise and fall of this great great awakening. And fall of this great great awakening. And fall of this great great awakening. And like other awakenings, I I wrote a book like other awakenings, I I wrote a book like other awakenings, I I wrote a book in in in 2010 called The God-Sized Vision looking 2010 called The God-Sized Vision looking 2010 called The God-Sized Vision looking at historical uh revivals um of at historical uh revivals um of at historical uh revivals um of Christianity.

Christianity. Christianity. But what I observed in that book is that But what I observed in that book is that But what I observed in that book is that successful revivals consolidate successful revivals consolidate successful revivals consolidate institutions going forward. institutions going forward. institutions going forward. It's what we've tried to do at The It's what we've tried to do at The It's what we've tried to do at The Gospel Coalition with this Young Gospel Coalition with this Young Gospel Coalition with this Young Restless Reformed Revival. Restless Reformed Revival. Restless Reformed Revival. But the similar thing has happened with But the similar thing has happened with But the similar thing has happened with this great awakening, the way that those this great awakening, the way that those this great awakening, the way that those viewpoints, those ideologies have been viewpoints, those ideologies have been viewpoints, those ideologies have been then then then uh inculcated in or been instituted uh inculcated in or been instituted uh inculcated in or been instituted within corporations across America, as within corporations across America, as within corporations across America, as well as especially within higher well as especially within higher well as especially within higher education. So, even as we could see that education. So, even as we could see that education. So, even as we could see that that same fervor that we saw peak in that same fervor that we saw peak in that same fervor that we saw peak in 2020 has really dissipated, it doesn't 2020 has really dissipated, it doesn't 2020 has really dissipated, it doesn't mean the effects are somehow all gone. mean the effects are somehow all gone. mean the effects are somehow all gone. And underneath it all, we're left with And underneath it all, we're left with And underneath it all, we're left with an ongoing challenge of how do we handle an ongoing challenge of how do we handle an ongoing challenge of how do we handle these issues in the church when we seem these issues in the church when we seem these issues in the church when we seem to have taken so many steps back? And to have taken so many steps back? And to have taken so many steps back? And how do we work together to pursue real how do we work together to pursue real how do we work together to pursue real justice for people who who need to need justice for people who who need to need justice for people who who need to need help? Mike, what am I missing? What help? Mike, what am I missing? What help? Mike, what am I missing? What would you add to to that? It's something would you add to to that? It's something would you add to to that? It's something we've all lived in intense ways these we've all lived in intense ways these we've all lived in intense ways these last years. last years. last years. Yeah, I think from a personal Yeah, I think from a personal Yeah, I think from a personal standpoint, I've had to navigate four standpoint, I've had to navigate four standpoint, I've had to navigate four different paradigms of how people different paradigms of how people different paradigms of how people navigate the navigate the navigate the the race in America conversation. So, the race in America conversation. So, the race in America conversation. So, around my Thanksgiving dinner table, I around my Thanksgiving dinner table, I around my Thanksgiving dinner table, I would hear my grandfather who grew up in would hear my grandfather who grew up in would hear my grandfather who grew up in downtown Detroit, um who was overtly downtown Detroit, um who was overtly downtown Detroit, um who was overtly racist, who would use the N-word, you racist, who would use the N-word, you racist, who would use the N-word, you know, at the at the dinner table. That's know, at the at the dinner table. That's know, at the at the dinner table. That's one paradigm. Um my mother had a color one paradigm. Um my mother had a color one paradigm. Um my mother had a color blind perspective. She was the only blind perspective. She was the only blind perspective. She was the only white girl in an all-black middle and white girl in an all-black middle and white girl in an all-black middle and all-black high school.

all-black high school. all-black high school. And, you know, her perspective that she And, you know, her perspective that she And, you know, her perspective that she tried to inculcate to to me and my tried to inculcate to to me and my tried to inculcate to to me and my brother was, well, we don't you know, we brother was, well, we don't you know, we brother was, well, we don't you know, we don't see race, you know, we're all part don't see race, you know, we're all part don't see race, you know, we're all part of the human race. of the human race. of the human race. And then And then And then um that was the perspective that I held um that was the perspective that I held um that was the perspective that I held for most of my lifetime, um but I did for most of my lifetime, um but I did for most of my lifetime, um but I did not have a a whole lot of proximity not have a a whole lot of proximity not have a a whole lot of proximity um and or direct, you know, relationship um and or direct, you know, relationship um and or direct, you know, relationship or intimacy or intimacy or intimacy um particularly in the in the um particularly in the in the um particularly in the in the black-white um navigation of American black-white um navigation of American black-white um navigation of American culture and society. And so but, you culture and society. And so but, you culture and society. And so but, you know, when I was know, when I was know, when I was older and in grad school and in the older and in grad school and in the older and in grad school and in the years after grad school particularly years after grad school particularly years after grad school particularly um doing church planting in a downtown um doing church planting in a downtown um doing church planting in a downtown area, area, area, there was another perspective that I there was another perspective that I there was another perspective that I found helpful and that was um the found helpful and that was um the found helpful and that was um the historical perspective. So, the historical perspective. So, the historical perspective. So, the historical perspective would be a blend historical perspective would be a blend historical perspective would be a blend of the biblical theology that we see of the biblical theology that we see of the biblical theology that we see from um the, you know, why did why does from um the, you know, why did why does from um the, you know, why did why does God create all these different God create all these different God create all these different ethnicities and what is the future of ethnicities and what is the future of ethnicities and what is the future of the eschaton and what is the hope of the the eschaton and what is the hope of the the eschaton and what is the hope of the gospel for the entire, you know, for the gospel for the entire, you know, for the gospel for the entire, you know, for the entire world? And so, entire world? And so, entire world? And so, when you combine that with the when you combine that with the when you combine that with the complexities of the racial history of complexities of the racial history of complexities of the racial history of the cities to which we live in the the cities to which we live in the the cities to which we live in the communities that we live and those communities that we live and those communities that we live and those backstories, backstories, backstories, those are helpful context for, okay, why those are helpful context for, okay, why those are helpful context for, okay, why is my community the way that it is, you is my community the way that it is, you is my community the way that it is, you know? In the city of Orlando, um I was know? In the city of Orlando, um I was know? In the city of Orlando, um I was never taught about the Ocoee Massacre.

never taught about the Ocoee Massacre. never taught about the Ocoee Massacre. The Ocoee Massacre was larger than the The Ocoee Massacre was larger than the The Ocoee Massacre was larger than the Pulse nightclub shooting that killed 50 Pulse nightclub shooting that killed 50 Pulse nightclub shooting that killed 50 people. And so, you know, these were people. And so, you know, these were people. And so, you know, these were things that just weren't taught in our things that just weren't taught in our things that just weren't taught in our school. They were relevant and they were school. They were relevant and they were school. They were relevant and they were helpful to understanding why why our helpful to understanding why why our helpful to understanding why why our community and why our city was the way community and why our city was the way community and why our city was the way it was, you know, and that same story it was, you know, and that same story it was, you know, and that same story can be told in, you know, obviously your can be told in, you know, obviously your can be told in, you know, obviously your your city of Birmingham. Yeah, your city of Birmingham. Yeah, your city of Birmingham. Yeah, absolutely. absolutely. absolutely. >> And then, >> And then, >> And then, you know, and then during this last you know, and then during this last you know, and then during this last decade, you also see the rise of um you decade, you also see the rise of um you decade, you also see the rise of um you know, you know, you know, you other some people might call it s- you other some people might call it s- you other some people might call it s- you know, some things or another things and know, some things or another things and know, some things or another things and this is where, you know, kind of parsing this is where, you know, kind of parsing this is where, you know, kind of parsing and putting a technical term on this is and putting a technical term on this is and putting a technical term on this is a little trickier, but that fourth a little trickier, but that fourth a little trickier, but that fourth perspective might be some might call it perspective might be some might call it perspective might be some might call it anti-racism, others might call it woke, anti-racism, others might call it woke, anti-racism, others might call it woke, other people might call it DEI, other other people might call it DEI, other other people might call it DEI, other people might call it cultural Marxism. people might call it cultural Marxism. people might call it cultural Marxism. Um, you know, different depending on Um, you know, different depending on Um, you know, different depending on different technical terms have been used different technical terms have been used different technical terms have been used in different years to kind of, you know, in different years to kind of, you know, in different years to kind of, you know, describe that. And so, I I think and you describe that. And so, I I think and you describe that. And so, I I think and you already touched on this, I think um, already touched on this, I think um, already touched on this, I think um, particularly with Yascha Mounk, um, is particularly with Yascha Mounk, um, is particularly with Yascha Mounk, um, is the idea that the idea that the idea that oppression imputes secular oppression imputes secular oppression imputes secular righteousness.

righteousness. righteousness. >> Yeah. And so, that's kind of where the >> Yeah. And so, that's kind of where the >> Yeah. And so, that's kind of where the problem is, you know, and that's where, problem is, you know, and that's where, problem is, you know, and that's where, you know, obviously Christians can't, you know, obviously Christians can't, you know, obviously Christians can't, you know, we can't go down that path of, you know, we can't go down that path of, you know, we can't go down that path of, yeah, no, we're we're all yeah, no, we're we're all yeah, no, we're we're all we all have the same fallenness and we we all have the same fallenness and we we all have the same fallenness and we we all have to deal with these things. we all have to deal with these things. we all have to deal with these things. And so, the challenge of And so, the challenge of And so, the challenge of when it comes to the great awakening and when it comes to the great awakening and when it comes to the great awakening and particularly the fracturing of particularly the fracturing of particularly the fracturing of evangelicalism, obviously race has been evangelicalism, obviously race has been evangelicalism, obviously race has been one of the biggest wedge issues that one of the biggest wedge issues that one of the biggest wedge issues that evangelicals in particular have evangelicals in particular have evangelicals in particular have struggled to navigate this conversation struggled to navigate this conversation struggled to navigate this conversation with deftness and with unity. And with deftness and with unity. And with deftness and with unity. And I think what what I've observed is that I think what what I've observed is that I think what what I've observed is that most people in categories two, three, most people in categories two, three, most people in categories two, three, and four, so, color blindness, and four, so, color blindness, and four, so, color blindness, historical, or DEI, would all, you know, historical, or DEI, would all, you know, historical, or DEI, would all, you know, roundly reject that first category, you roundly reject that first category, you roundly reject that first category, you know, know, know, people like my late grandfather. Um, but people like my late grandfather. Um, but people like my late grandfather. Um, but then there's been big conversations of then there's been big conversations of then there's been big conversations of people who are in that that color blind people who are in that that color blind people who are in that that color blind perspective who maybe want to um, think perspective who maybe want to um, think perspective who maybe want to um, think that the historical perspective and the that the historical perspective and the that the historical perspective and the um, anti-racist perspective are actually um, anti-racist perspective are actually um, anti-racist perspective are actually one in the same when I think there's a one in the same when I think there's a one in the same when I think there's a very significant differences, um, very significant differences, um, very significant differences, um, between those between those two between those between those two between those between those two categories. And so, that that's been categories. And so, that that's been categories. And so, that that's been very hard, I think, for people to very hard, I think, for people to very hard, I think, for people to navigate and I think that's, you know, navigate and I think that's, you know, navigate and I think that's, you know, one of the biggest reasons why for me one of the biggest reasons why for me one of the biggest reasons why for me this has been this has been this has been one of the biggest challenges and, you one of the biggest challenges and, you one of the biggest challenges and, you know, I was a pastor during 2020 and know, I was a pastor during 2020 and know, I was a pastor during 2020 and 2021 and anybody who was a pastor during

2021 and anybody who was a pastor during 2021 and anybody who was a pastor during that time knew how challenging it was to that time knew how challenging it was to that time knew how challenging it was to navigate all of that when navigate all of that when navigate all of that when the cultural temperature was very turned the cultural temperature was very turned the cultural temperature was very turned up. It's something that we could um any up. It's something that we could um any up. It's something that we could um any of us living through it and especially of us living through it and especially of us living through it and especially church leadership could and would never church leadership could and would never church leadership could and would never forget, which uh forget, which uh forget, which uh might be a hint, Sarah, at what awaits might be a hint, Sarah, at what awaits might be a hint, Sarah, at what awaits people on the other side of the next people on the other side of the next people on the other side of the next episode that they're going to have to episode that they're going to have to episode that they're going to have to wait for. You are right, like normal, wait for. You are right, like normal, wait for. You are right, like normal, this is too much for just one. Um we I this is too much for just one. Um we I this is too much for just one. Um we I warned you. At least we didn't do 25. warned you. At least we didn't do 25. warned you. At least we didn't do 25. Yeah, that was going to Yeah, that was going to Yeah, that was going to >> great thoughts, Mike. Extremely helpful. >> great thoughts, Mike. Extremely helpful. >> great thoughts, Mike. Extremely helpful. You're one of the help most helpful You're one of the help most helpful You're one of the help most helpful people to teach on that topic and you people to teach on that topic and you people to teach on that topic and you live it, you experience it and thanks live it, you experience it and thanks live it, you experience it and thanks for helping to frame that, but yeah, for helping to frame that, but yeah, for helping to frame that, but yeah, there's a lot more to cover. More to there's a lot more to cover. More to there's a lot more to cover. More to come. There's more to come. So, let's come. There's more to come. So, let's come. There's more to come. So, let's wrap this up for today. We will let our wrap this up for today. We will let our wrap this up for today. We will let our listeners um finish their run or their listeners um finish their run or their listeners um finish their run or their commute or their cup of coffee and then commute or their cup of coffee and then commute or their cup of coffee and then we will pick this up again in uh next we will pick this up again in uh next we will pick this up again in uh next episode. We will come back with the episode. We will come back with the episode. We will come back with the final five of Collin's top 10 list of final five of Collin's top 10 list of final five of Collin's top 10 list of theological stories from the last 25 theological stories from the last 25 theological stories from the last 25 years.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.