The Cultural Myths That Fail Us

Well, let me wish you a very warm Well, let me wish you a very warm welcome to the Gospel Coalition podcast. welcome to the Gospel Coalition podcast. welcome to the Gospel Coalition podcast. I'm Christopher Watkins and today I have I'm Christopher Watkins and today I have I'm Christopher Watkins and today I have the great pleasure of speaking with Dr. the great pleasure of speaking with Dr. the great pleasure of speaking with Dr. Michael Keller, pastor of Redeeming Michael Keller, pastor of Redeeming Michael Keller, pastor of Redeeming Lincoln Square in Manhattan and author Lincoln Square in Manhattan and author Lincoln Square in Manhattan and author of the fascinating new book, The Stories of the fascinating new book, The Stories of the fascinating new book, The Stories We Live By, How Jesus Critiques and We Live By, How Jesus Critiques and We Live By, How Jesus Critiques and Completes What Our Culture Tells Us. Completes What Our Culture Tells Us. Completes What Our Culture Tells Us. Michael, welcome to the show. Michael, welcome to the show. Michael, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Chris. It's great Thanks for having me, Chris. It's great Thanks for having me, Chris. It's great to be here. to be here. to be here. >> Michael, I'd love to begin with the the >> Michael, I'd love to begin with the the >> Michael, I'd love to begin with the the big idea in the title of your book, this big idea in the title of your book, this big idea in the title of your book, this idea of cultural narratives. Of all the idea of cultural narratives. Of all the idea of cultural narratives. Of all the books you could have written, what drew books you could have written, what drew books you could have written, what drew you to write a book about this thing you to write a book about this thing you to write a book about this thing called cultural narratives right now? called cultural narratives right now? called cultural narratives right now? >> Well, first, it's a co-written book. >> Well, first, it's a co-written book. >> Well, first, it's a co-written book. It's um it's my father's uh material It's um it's my father's uh material It's um it's my father's uh material that we agreed would even after death, that we agreed would even after death, that we agreed would even after death, we should put it out. It's his one of we should put it out. It's his one of we should put it out. It's his one of his last I think um sustained arguments his last I think um sustained arguments his last I think um sustained arguments of cultural analysis. It's it's really of cultural analysis. It's it's really of cultural analysis. It's it's really really um great stuff. But I'd have to really um great stuff. But I'd have to really um great stuff. But I'd have to just say it's his ideas uh generally just say it's his ideas uh generally just say it's his ideas uh generally speaking and um he helped me I mean I speaking and um he helped me I mean I speaking and um he helped me I mean I found 40,000 60,000 words on this topic found 40,000 60,000 words on this topic found 40,000 60,000 words on this topic on his computer but we beforehand on his computer but we beforehand on his computer but we beforehand organized the the layout all the stuff organized the the layout all the stuff organized the the layout all the stuff ahead of time. But the reason why we ahead of time. But the reason why we ahead of time. But the reason why we wanted to do this is because we're not m wanted to do this is because we're not m wanted to do this is because we're not m I think we're realizing this more and I think we're realizing this more and I think we're realizing this more and more. Humans are not merely thinking

more. Humans are not merely thinking more. Humans are not merely thinking apparatuses. We are storybased people. apparatuses. We are storybased people. apparatuses. We are storybased people. We we don't think our way through life. We we don't think our way through life. We we don't think our way through life. We story our way through life. And We story our way through life. And We story our way through life. And whatever captures your imagination, that whatever captures your imagination, that whatever captures your imagination, that is the direction that you go in. And um is the direction that you go in. And um is the direction that you go in. And um you can call it cultural narratives, you you can call it cultural narratives, you you can call it cultural narratives, you can call it stories, but generally can call it stories, but generally can call it stories, but generally speaking, we are the stories we live by. speaking, we are the stories we live by. speaking, we are the stories we live by. That's hence the title. That's hence the title. That's hence the title. >> Yeah. And you you begin the book with a >> Yeah. And you you begin the book with a >> Yeah. And you you begin the book with a beautiful story of your own where your beautiful story of your own where your beautiful story of your own where your father in his final months is praying father in his final months is praying father in his final months is praying the Lord's prayer with you. He's saying the Lord's prayer with you. He's saying the Lord's prayer with you. He's saying the creed with you. And you you have the creed with you. And you you have the creed with you. And you you have this reflection that these are not just this reflection that these are not just this reflection that these are not just doctrines that you both believe, but doctrines that you both believe, but doctrines that you both believe, but they're they're stories that you're they're they're stories that you're they're they're stories that you're living in. And I I just love to tease living in. And I I just love to tease living in. And I I just love to tease out the difference there. What's the out the difference there. What's the out the difference there. What's the what's the difference between an idea or what's the difference between an idea or what's the difference between an idea or a doctrine in your head and that the a doctrine in your head and that the a doctrine in your head and that the creed or the Lord's Prayer is a story creed or the Lord's Prayer is a story creed or the Lord's Prayer is a story that you're living in? that you're living in? that you're living in? >> Yeah. Um I think it made sense to start >> Yeah. Um I think it made sense to start >> Yeah. Um I think it made sense to start a conversation about stories with your a conversation about stories with your a conversation about stories with your own. And the story I was going through own. And the story I was going through own. And the story I was going through with writing the book was dealing with with writing the book was dealing with with writing the book was dealing with my dad's gingaling with grief from my my dad's gingaling with grief from my my dad's gingaling with grief from my dad's death. And the stories are always dad's death. And the stories are always dad's death. And the stories are always around us. In this case, the stories around us. In this case, the stories around us. In this case, the stories that often we tell each other in death that often we tell each other in death that often we tell each other in death is don't worry, your father's looking is don't worry, your father's looking is don't worry, your father's looking down, you know, on you. Uh he's in a down, you know, on you. Uh he's in a down, you know, on you. Uh he's in a better place. He'll always be with you.

better place. He'll always be with you. better place. He'll always be with you. These these are just sort of cultural These these are just sort of cultural These these are just sort of cultural platitudes. platitudes. platitudes. And we sometimes we think they're sort And we sometimes we think they're sort And we sometimes we think they're sort of throwaway phrases, but they're not. of throwaway phrases, but they're not. of throwaway phrases, but they're not. there's they're they're packed with uh there's they're they're packed with uh there's they're they're packed with uh uh direction and meaning and um as I was uh direction and meaning and um as I was uh direction and meaning and um as I was grappling with these statements that are grappling with these statements that are grappling with these statements that are being said, they just felt so thin and being said, they just felt so thin and being said, they just felt so thin and hearing like time heals all wounds. I'm hearing like time heals all wounds. I'm hearing like time heals all wounds. I'm like, well, does it doesn't feel like like, well, does it doesn't feel like like, well, does it doesn't feel like it. Everything happens for a reason. it. Everything happens for a reason. it. Everything happens for a reason. Well, okay, but who who who's directing Well, okay, but who who who's directing Well, okay, but who who who's directing this and where is it coming from? So this and where is it coming from? So this and where is it coming from? So grief I found is a great diagnostic to grief I found is a great diagnostic to grief I found is a great diagnostic to kind of get through all the kind of kind of get through all the kind of kind of get through all the kind of stories and say what's working, what's stories and say what's working, what's stories and say what's working, what's not. And that's where I started because not. And that's where I started because not. And that's where I started because I think uh that's the analysis we need I think uh that's the analysis we need I think uh that's the analysis we need to do is is ask ourselves what are the to do is is ask ourselves what are the to do is is ask ourselves what are the stories we're beholden to? What what's stories we're beholden to? What what's stories we're beholden to? What what's what is around us? And I think the aha what is around us? And I think the aha what is around us? And I think the aha came to me when I realized that at the came to me when I realized that at the came to me when I realized that at the end of my dad's life, the last couple end of my dad's life, the last couple end of my dad's life, the last couple days, he just wanted to repeat the days, he just wanted to repeat the days, he just wanted to repeat the Lord's Prayer and the Apostles's Creed. Lord's Prayer and the Apostles's Creed. Lord's Prayer and the Apostles's Creed. And I just thought he was just trying to And I just thought he was just trying to And I just thought he was just trying to get his mind off of the pain. And I'm get his mind off of the pain. And I'm get his mind off of the pain. And I'm sure there was something there. But sure there was something there. But sure there was something there. But thinking back to him, I'm like, wait a thinking back to him, I'm like, wait a thinking back to him, I'm like, wait a second, the Lord's Prayer, um, the second, the Lord's Prayer, um, the second, the Lord's Prayer, um, the Apostles Creed, what are these things?

Apostles Creed, what are these things? Apostles Creed, what are these things? There there's stories in there. You There there's stories in there. You There there's stories in there. You know, when you're saying, um, our father know, when you're saying, um, our father know, when you're saying, um, our father who art in heaven, there's a ton of what who art in heaven, there's a ton of what who art in heaven, there's a ton of what do we mean by our, what do you mean by do we mean by our, what do you mean by do we mean by our, what do you mean by father? There these are there there's a father? There these are there there's a father? There these are there there's a story that's happening. and he was story that's happening. and he was story that's happening. and he was putting himself into these stories putting himself into these stories putting himself into these stories because it explained the world better to because it explained the world better to because it explained the world better to him than the ones that are else that are him than the ones that are else that are him than the ones that are else that are around. I I think that's that's true. around. I I think that's that's true. around. I I think that's that's true. It's really telling, isn't it, that in It's really telling, isn't it, that in It's really telling, isn't it, that in your father's moment of greatest need your father's moment of greatest need your father's moment of greatest need and sort of greatest everything being and sort of greatest everything being and sort of greatest everything being stripped away from his life. It was the stripped away from his life. It was the stripped away from his life. It was the stories that that he came back to and stories that that he came back to and stories that that he came back to and that you came to as his son to to that you came to as his son to to that you came to as his son to to sustain you in those moments. These sustain you in those moments. These sustain you in those moments. These stories are incredibly powerful. stories are incredibly powerful. stories are incredibly powerful. >> We don't realize it. We don't we think >> We don't realize it. We don't we think >> We don't realize it. We don't we think of them as platitudes and statements, of them as platitudes and statements, of them as platitudes and statements, but there's there's imagery and but there's there's imagery and but there's there's imagery and imagination and movement that I don't imagination and movement that I don't imagination and movement that I don't think we realize how important it is think we realize how important it is think we realize how important it is like, right? They're they're still like, right? They're they're still like, right? They're they're still powerful powerful powerful and and they they have that power, don't and and they they have that power, don't and and they they have that power, don't they, for for great good in our lives.

they, for for great good in our lives. they, for for great good in our lives. And they they can also really damage us And they they can also really damage us And they they can also really damage us as well. the you you talk in the book as well. the you you talk in the book as well. the you you talk in the book about a whole series of stories in our about a whole series of stories in our about a whole series of stories in our society that um have the power to society that um have the power to society that um have the power to capture us and sort of give us a capture us and sort of give us a capture us and sort of give us a particular perspective on the world. Um particular perspective on the world. Um particular perspective on the world. Um I wonder if you could just help us to I wonder if you could just help us to I wonder if you could just help us to see how our world is is full of stories. see how our world is is full of stories. see how our world is is full of stories. So, so you have these little phrases in So, so you have these little phrases in So, so you have these little phrases in the book. There's, you know, follow your the book. There's, you know, follow your the book. There's, you know, follow your heart or you do you or you he he's in a heart or you do you or you he he's in a heart or you do you or you he he's in a better place that the stories around better place that the stories around better place that the stories around death that you were telling us. death that you were telling us. death that you were telling us. >> Um, and people might think, well, those >> Um, and people might think, well, those >> Um, and people might think, well, those are not stories. They're just ideas or are not stories. They're just ideas or are not stories. They're just ideas or they're just little throwaway phrases. they're just little throwaway phrases. they're just little throwaway phrases. What what makes these ideas into a story What what makes these ideas into a story What what makes these ideas into a story that we live by? that we live by? that we live by? >> Yeah, those phrases are not are just we >> Yeah, those phrases are not are just we >> Yeah, those phrases are not are just we don't think much of them, but I would don't think much of them, but I would don't think much of them, but I would say those are stories in a hurry. say those are stories in a hurry. say those are stories in a hurry. They when someone says just be yourself, They when someone says just be yourself, They when someone says just be yourself, they're not just offering a piece of they're not just offering a piece of they're not just offering a piece of advice that they're offering you an advice that they're offering you an advice that they're offering you an account of what a human is. And when you account of what a human is. And when you account of what a human is. And when you say uh follow your heart or you do you say uh follow your heart or you do you say uh follow your heart or you do you or be on the right side of history or or be on the right side of history or or be on the right side of history or everything's about power, these aren't everything's about power, these aren't everything's about power, these aren't throwaway statements. They are ways to throwaway statements. They are ways to throwaway statements. They are ways to organize your life. And whether we know organize your life. And whether we know organize your life. And whether we know it or not, we've grown up on them. We've it or not, we've grown up on them. We've it or not, we've grown up on them. We've we've drank from the fountain of of of we've drank from the fountain of of of we've drank from the fountain of of of uh that changes our imagination. Very uh that changes our imagination. Very uh that changes our imagination. Very few people walk around going asking the few people walk around going asking the few people walk around going asking the sort of philosophical questions who am I

sort of philosophical questions who am I sort of philosophical questions who am I and what's the point of life and what and what's the point of life and what and what's the point of life and what should I do with myself? And the reason should I do with myself? And the reason should I do with myself? And the reason why they we don't is the stories our why they we don't is the stories our why they we don't is the stories our culture tells us in these little culture tells us in these little culture tells us in these little platitudes these stories in a hurry are platitudes these stories in a hurry are platitudes these stories in a hurry are they're enough because they they move us they're enough because they they move us they're enough because they they move us enough to say, "Oh, we know what the enough to say, "Oh, we know what the enough to say, "Oh, we know what the point of life is. It's to be happy. to point of life is. It's to be happy. to point of life is. It's to be happy. to be happy. It's to find the thing that be happy. It's to find the thing that be happy. It's to find the thing that makes us happy and not let anybody get makes us happy and not let anybody get makes us happy and not let anybody get in the way of it. Why do we say that? in the way of it. Why do we say that? in the way of it. Why do we say that? Because we've been told that our whole Because we've been told that our whole Because we've been told that our whole lives. So I I I I I think there's more. lives. So I I I I I think there's more. lives. So I I I I I think there's more. Stories are more than just phrases, but Stories are more than just phrases, but Stories are more than just phrases, but they're at least that. they're at least that. they're at least that. Let's try and imagine someone who's a Let's try and imagine someone who's a Let's try and imagine someone who's a little bit skeptical of what you've just little bit skeptical of what you've just little bit skeptical of what you've just said. And their reaction would be said. And their reaction would be said. And their reaction would be something like, "Yeah, of course, the something like, "Yeah, of course, the something like, "Yeah, of course, the idea of you do you and um you know, he's idea of you do you and um you know, he's idea of you do you and um you know, he's in a better place or whatever. They're in a better place or whatever. They're in a better place or whatever. They're there in society." But you don't have to there in society." But you don't have to there in society." But you don't have to be gullible enough just to swallow those be gullible enough just to swallow those be gullible enough just to swallow those ideas home. You know, I I live by common ideas home. You know, I I live by common ideas home. You know, I I live by common sense. I'm my own person. You know, you sense. I'm my own person. You know, you sense. I'm my own person. You know, you don't go to the cinema and see a story don't go to the cinema and see a story don't go to the cinema and see a story uh, you know, played out in a film and uh, you know, played out in a film and uh, you know, played out in a film and then pretend to be the hero of the then pretend to be the hero of the then pretend to be the hero of the story. We we can tell the difference story. We we can tell the difference story. We we can tell the difference between stories and reality. And I I' between stories and reality. And I I' between stories and reality. And I I' I'd love you to just speak to that I'd love you to just speak to that I'd love you to just speak to that person and try and help them to see how person and try and help them to see how person and try and help them to see how these stories get under our skin. You these stories get under our skin. You these stories get under our skin. You know, when there's no loudspeakers in know, when there's no loudspeakers in know, when there's no loudspeakers in the city center saying you do you, you the city center saying you do you, you the city center saying you do you, you know, how how do we absorb these know, how how do we absorb these know, how how do we absorb these stories? Yeah, you're right. Nobody sits stories? Yeah, you're right. Nobody sits stories? Yeah, you're right. Nobody sits down sits down a six-year-old and says,

down sits down a six-year-old and says, down sits down a six-year-old and says, "Uh, here's what expressive "Uh, here's what expressive "Uh, here's what expressive individualism is and and then they start individualism is and and then they start individualism is and and then they start being a become an expressive expressive being a become an expressive expressive being a become an expressive expressive individualist." Um, individualist." Um, individualist." Um, >> that would that would not last long if >> that would that would not last long if >> that would that would not last long if you tried to do that with six. you tried to do that with six. you tried to do that with six. >> No, it is not how it works. It it Dad >> No, it is not how it works. It it Dad >> No, it is not how it works. It it Dad used a phrase, these are more um caught used a phrase, these are more um caught used a phrase, these are more um caught than taught. It's something that gets than taught. It's something that gets than taught. It's something that gets embodied. You you it's a way that you embodied. You you it's a way that you embodied. You you it's a way that you watch how people deal with life around watch how people deal with life around watch how people deal with life around you. It's um what your parents sacrifice you. It's um what your parents sacrifice you. It's um what your parents sacrifice for, what you're proud of, what they're for, what you're proud of, what they're for, what you're proud of, what they're proud of, what makes them anxious, what proud of, what makes them anxious, what proud of, what makes them anxious, what makes you anxious. And I think it's makes you anxious. And I think it's makes you anxious. And I think it's absorbed through a thousand different absorbed through a thousand different absorbed through a thousand different movies. It's through a thousand movies. It's through a thousand movies. It's through a thousand different different different uh music uh lyrics. It's it's through, uh music uh lyrics. It's it's through, uh music uh lyrics. It's it's through, you know, Muana who says um you know, you know, Muana who says um you know, you know, Muana who says um you know, basically that some of the the songs are basically that some of the the songs are basically that some of the the songs are like follow your heart and and uh if like follow your heart and and uh if like follow your heart and and uh if there's a voice inside you, that that is there's a voice inside you, that that is there's a voice inside you, that that is who you are. that's telling you that who you are. that's telling you that who you are. that's telling you that internally is how you get your identity. internally is how you get your identity. internally is how you get your identity. Um, you have let it go. I mean, I I keep Um, you have let it go. I mean, I I keep Um, you have let it go. I mean, I I keep going to like Disney because but those going to like Disney because but those going to like Disney because but those are those are stories about what's are those are stories about what's are those are stories about what's important about how to have a happy ever important about how to have a happy ever important about how to have a happy ever a happy ever after life. Um, so I I just a happy ever after life. Um, so I I just a happy ever after life. Um, so I I just I think that I think that I think that the stories are found in these not one the stories are found in these not one the stories are found in these not one statement or one thing. They're they're statement or one thing. They're they're statement or one thing. They're they're really more along how our culture values really more along how our culture values really more along how our culture values things. um and thinks what the point of things. um and thinks what the point of things. um and thinks what the point of life is and what you're supposed to be life is and what you're supposed to be life is and what you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. I I know. What do What do doing. Yeah. I I know. What do What do doing. Yeah. I I know. What do What do you think?

you think? you think? >> I I think it's really subtle, isn't it? >> I I think it's really subtle, isn't it? >> I I think it's really subtle, isn't it? And you you've done a brilliant job of And you you've done a brilliant job of And you you've done a brilliant job of of bringing that out that nobody ever of bringing that out that nobody ever of bringing that out that nobody ever sits you down and says, "This is how you sits you down and says, "This is how you sits you down and says, "This is how you should run your life." And that in a should run your life." And that in a should run your life." And that in a sense is why these stories are so sense is why these stories are so sense is why these stories are so powerful because we think they're our powerful because we think they're our powerful because we think they're our own. own. own. >> Yes. We all of us think I came up with >> Yes. We all of us think I came up with >> Yes. We all of us think I came up with this, I chose this. And then when we this, I chose this. And then when we this, I chose this. And then when we take a moment to step back and look take a moment to step back and look take a moment to step back and look around, wait a minute, most other people around, wait a minute, most other people around, wait a minute, most other people in society live their lives according to in society live their lives according to in society live their lives according to these stories, too. So, are they really these stories, too. So, are they really these stories, too. So, are they really quite as self-chosen as I thought they quite as self-chosen as I thought they quite as self-chosen as I thought they were? were? were? >> It it it makes you think, did did I >> It it it makes you think, did did I >> It it it makes you think, did did I really get these because I decided in really get these because I decided in really get these because I decided in the sort of privacy of my own thinking the sort of privacy of my own thinking the sort of privacy of my own thinking that this is the best way to live or that this is the best way to live or that this is the best way to live or not? Yeah, the most powerful stories are not? Yeah, the most powerful stories are not? Yeah, the most powerful stories are the ones that you never that you never the ones that you never that you never the ones that you never that you never noticed that have ever, you know, you noticed that have ever, you know, you noticed that have ever, you know, you never noticed that they came. They they never noticed that they came. They they never noticed that they came. They they started showing up before you even were started showing up before you even were started showing up before you even were old enough to push back.

old enough to push back. old enough to push back. >> I mean, that's the theory of propaganda, >> I mean, that's the theory of propaganda, >> I mean, that's the theory of propaganda, isn't it? The best propaganda is isn't it? The best propaganda is isn't it? The best propaganda is propaganda you don't know is propaganda. propaganda you don't know is propaganda. propaganda you don't know is propaganda. You just think it's obvious. You just think it's obvious. You just think it's obvious. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. I I want to stick with our skeptic just I I want to stick with our skeptic just I I want to stick with our skeptic just for a little moment because I can for a little moment because I can for a little moment because I can imagine them still saying at this point imagine them still saying at this point imagine them still saying at this point in our conversation. Um in our conversation. Um in our conversation. Um I don't go and watch a Disney film and I don't go and watch a Disney film and I don't go and watch a Disney film and then think that I'm a Disney princess. I then think that I'm a Disney princess. I then think that I'm a Disney princess. I I still I'm in control of how I live my I still I'm in control of how I live my I still I'm in control of how I live my life and I choose which stories to to life and I choose which stories to to life and I choose which stories to to believe. And one thing that I found believe. And one thing that I found believe. And one thing that I found really brilliant and so so helpful about really brilliant and so so helpful about really brilliant and so so helpful about your book was that you've got these your book was that you've got these your book was that you've got these diagnostic diagnostic diagnostic questions for people to try and work out questions for people to try and work out questions for people to try and work out what stories am I actually living by what stories am I actually living by what stories am I actually living by because you you have this brilliant because you you have this brilliant because you you have this brilliant point that we often think we're living point that we often think we're living point that we often think we're living by set of stories A, but actually we're by set of stories A, but actually we're by set of stories A, but actually we're living by set of stories B. So we don't living by set of stories B. So we don't living by set of stories B. So we don't quite understand ourselves as well as we quite understand ourselves as well as we quite understand ourselves as well as we think we might. I' I'd love you just to think we might. I' I'd love you just to think we might. I' I'd love you just to um unpack those diagnostic questions for um unpack those diagnostic questions for um unpack those diagnostic questions for us to try and work out what stories am I us to try and work out what stories am I us to try and work out what stories am I actually living.

actually living. actually living. >> Yeah. I mean it's to be honest I kind of >> Yeah. I mean it's to be honest I kind of >> Yeah. I mean it's to be honest I kind of stumbled on these on this this um I stumbled on these on this this um I stumbled on these on this this um I didn't find this from from many of dad's didn't find this from from many of dad's didn't find this from from many of dad's work but it was more sitting with my work but it was more sitting with my work but it was more sitting with my girls and we'd be watching shows or be girls and we'd be watching shows or be girls and we'd be watching shows or be watching a commercial and I would pause watching a commercial and I would pause watching a commercial and I would pause it and I'd just say girls what I have it and I'd just say girls what I have it and I'd just say girls what I have two daughters I'd say girls what's two daughters I'd say girls what's two daughters I'd say girls what's happening here what what's the promise happening here what what's the promise happening here what what's the promise here? They're like, "Oh, well, if you if here? They're like, "Oh, well, if you if here? They're like, "Oh, well, if you if you buy this car, you'll be happy. See you buy this car, you'll be happy. See you buy this car, you'll be happy. See the smiles or um but then, you know, I the smiles or um but then, you know, I the smiles or um but then, you know, I think I did it too much because after think I did it too much because after think I did it too much because after like every Disney movie, I'm like, like every Disney movie, I'm like, like every Disney movie, I'm like, "Okay, girls, what's the what's going on "Okay, girls, what's the what's going on "Okay, girls, what's the what's going on here?" And they're like, "Well, it's here?" And they're like, "Well, it's here?" And they're like, "Well, it's it's the movie saying follow your it's the movie saying follow your it's the movie saying follow your heart." And I was like, "Okay, what's heart." And I was like, "Okay, what's heart." And I was like, "Okay, what's wrong with that?" "Well, sometimes your wrong with that?" "Well, sometimes your wrong with that?" "Well, sometimes your heart takes you to places you shouldn't heart takes you to places you shouldn't heart takes you to places you shouldn't go." I said, "Okay." and and they they go." I said, "Okay." and and they they go." I said, "Okay." and and they they they roll their eyes, but I I'm happy they roll their eyes, but I I'm happy they roll their eyes, but I I'm happy because I know that I've given them a because I know that I've given them a because I know that I've given them a grid to realize grid to realize grid to realize what's actually that we're and I think what's actually that we're and I think what's actually that we're and I think that the world is changing where now that the world is changing where now that the world is changing where now because so much of our economy is because so much of our economy is because so much of our economy is attention economy because of social attention economy because of social attention economy because of social media and scrolling and things we're media and scrolling and things we're media and scrolling and things we're realizing and waking up, oh, what we put realizing and waking up, oh, what we put realizing and waking up, oh, what we put in is affecting us. And I'm trying to in is affecting us. And I'm trying to in is affecting us. And I'm trying to give folks the the kind of hooks to kind give folks the the kind of hooks to kind give folks the the kind of hooks to kind of when you watch something, what's it of when you watch something, what's it of when you watch something, what's it getting at? What is the value? What's getting at? What is the value? What's getting at? What is the value? What's meaning, purpose, reality? What's what's meaning, purpose, reality? What's what's meaning, purpose, reality? What's what's true? What's not? And I think dad quoted true? What's not? And I think dad quoted true? What's not? And I think dad quoted a bunch of philosophers. probably can a bunch of philosophers. probably can a bunch of philosophers. probably can quote who those philosophers are about quote who those philosophers are about quote who those philosophers are about every culture has to give you answers to

every culture has to give you answers to every culture has to give you answers to you know who you are what's the point of you know who you are what's the point of you know who you are what's the point of life what went wrong with the world what life what went wrong with the world what life what went wrong with the world what will put it right how do you get it will put it right how do you get it will put it right how do you get it right and we don't actively ask those right and we don't actively ask those right and we don't actively ask those questions out loud because these many questions out loud because these many questions out loud because these many stories are behind them and I'm trying stories are behind them and I'm trying stories are behind them and I'm trying to give us ways to kind of identify to give us ways to kind of identify to give us ways to kind of identify those through just the small glimpses those through just the small glimpses those through just the small glimpses that we don't even know that we're doing that we don't even know that we're doing that we don't even know that we're doing but we're doing it I mean you you can but we're doing it I mean you you can but we're doing it I mean you you can probably give a better diagnostic of all probably give a better diagnostic of all probably give a better diagnostic of all that than I can. that than I can. that than I can. >> Well, no. I I was I found your questions >> Well, no. I I was I found your questions >> Well, no. I I was I found your questions so compelling in the book because I so compelling in the book because I so compelling in the book because I think why I found them so helpful just think why I found them so helpful just think why I found them so helpful just thinking about my own life was you're thinking about my own life was you're thinking about my own life was you're focusing in on the sort of feelings that focusing in on the sort of feelings that focusing in on the sort of feelings that we all have but we don't always register we all have but we don't always register we all have but we don't always register like you know what makes me anxious when like you know what makes me anxious when like you know what makes me anxious when I get anxious what am I anxious about I get anxious what am I anxious about I get anxious what am I anxious about and you can see patterns there. Oh, it's and you can see patterns there. Oh, it's and you can see patterns there. Oh, it's this sort of thing. It's always my job this sort of thing. It's always my job this sort of thing. It's always my job that makes me anxious. It's never that makes me anxious. It's never that makes me anxious. It's never anything else. It's always my kids that anything else. It's always my kids that anything else. It's always my kids that make me anxious. It's never anything make me anxious. It's never anything make me anxious. It's never anything else. And um you know, you say, "What else. And um you know, you say, "What else. And um you know, you say, "What makes me angry?" And I I think that was makes me angry?" And I I think that was makes me angry?" And I I think that was so confronting for [laughter] me. Like so confronting for [laughter] me. Like so confronting for [laughter] me. Like the things that ought to make me angry the things that ought to make me angry the things that ought to make me angry don't and the things that um shouldn't don't and the things that um shouldn't don't and the things that um shouldn't make me angry often do. Um and you've make me angry often do. Um and you've make me angry often do. Um and you've got, you know, what's making me proud, got, you know, what's making me proud, got, you know, what's making me proud, what's making me exhausted. And I found what's making me exhausted. And I found what's making me exhausted. And I found those so incredibly helpful for thinking those so incredibly helpful for thinking those so incredibly helpful for thinking what are the stories that I'm actually what are the stories that I'm actually what are the stories that I'm actually living by like what story would I need living by like what story would I need living by like what story would I need to believe to believe to believe >> if this was what's making me anxious or >> if this was what's making me anxious or >> if this was what's making me anxious or this was what's making me this was what's making me this was what's making me >> ang >> ang >> ang you know it reminds me of uh I think dad

you know it reminds me of uh I think dad you know it reminds me of uh I think dad had a sermon some sometime when he said had a sermon some sometime when he said had a sermon some sometime when he said think what are you daydreaming about think what are you daydreaming about think what are you daydreaming about what are you afraid of like what those what are you afraid of like what those what are you afraid of like what those are the things that are kind of driving are the things that are kind of driving are the things that are kind of driving you um in in so many different spaces you um in in so many different spaces you um in in so many different spaces and so and so and so probably outside the there's a whole probably outside the there's a whole probably outside the there's a whole another podcast to talk about the how another podcast to talk about the how another podcast to talk about the how idolatry um and um narratives co-inact. idolatry um and um narratives co-inact. idolatry um and um narratives co-inact. But I I do think that there's there's But I I do think that there's there's But I I do think that there's there's something there that um making sure something there that um making sure something there that um making sure we're aware and and this is why whether we're aware and and this is why whether we're aware and and this is why whether you're a Christian or not, I I really you're a Christian or not, I I really you're a Christian or not, I I really think the book is helpful because if think the book is helpful because if think the book is helpful because if you're unaware, you can't actually do you're unaware, you can't actually do you're unaware, you can't actually do anything about it. And I think anything about it. And I think anything about it. And I think Christians have probably absorbed more Christians have probably absorbed more Christians have probably absorbed more cultural narratives than they think and cultural narratives than they think and cultural narratives than they think and are living out them in incomplete forms. are living out them in incomplete forms. are living out them in incomplete forms. But I also think a lot of But I also think a lot of But I also think a lot of non-Christians, non-Christians, non-Christians, maybe a lot of folks won't necessarily maybe a lot of folks won't necessarily maybe a lot of folks won't necessarily become Christians, but I would love for become Christians, but I would love for become Christians, but I would love for them to become more aware that what they them to become more aware that what they them to become more aware that what they thought would be enough, the reason why thought would be enough, the reason why thought would be enough, the reason why it's not enough is because they're it's not enough is because they're it's not enough is because they're incomplete. They don't have the full the incomplete. They don't have the full the incomplete. They don't have the full the full story behind them. Um, and that's full story behind them. Um, and that's full story behind them. Um, and that's also important. These aren't a lot of also important. These aren't a lot of also important. These aren't a lot of the longings that are in these stories, the longings that are in these stories, the longings that are in these stories, a lot of the there's a lot of truth in a lot of the there's a lot of truth in a lot of the there's a lot of truth in each one of these stories, but they're each one of these stories, but they're each one of these stories, but they're incomplete. And I and I think that's incomplete. And I and I think that's incomplete. And I and I think that's what the book tries to do.

what the book tries to do. what the book tries to do. Completely agree. And I think that Completely agree. And I think that Completely agree. And I think that self-awareness is incredibly important, self-awareness is incredibly important, self-awareness is incredibly important, isn't it? In in the same way that we'd isn't it? In in the same way that we'd isn't it? In in the same way that we'd never give people the keys to our house never give people the keys to our house never give people the keys to our house and say just do whatever you want there. and say just do whatever you want there. and say just do whatever you want there. It it it is as if we are giving these It it it is as if we are giving these It it it is as if we are giving these stories the keys to our minds and our stories the keys to our minds and our stories the keys to our minds and our hearts. you know, please please run this hearts. you know, please please run this hearts. you know, please please run this as you see fit, dear story. And and of as you see fit, dear story. And and of as you see fit, dear story. And and of of course, we would never do that with of course, we would never do that with of course, we would never do that with any physical possession. So why on earth any physical possession. So why on earth any physical possession. So why on earth would we remain unaware of these would we remain unaware of these would we remain unaware of these powerful stories that are shaping our powerful stories that are shaping our powerful stories that are shaping our views of the world without, you know, views of the world without, you know, views of the world without, you know, trying to put them on the table in front trying to put them on the table in front trying to put them on the table in front of us and interrogate them and say, of us and interrogate them and say, of us and interrogate them and say, well, is is this a good story? Am I well, is is this a good story? Am I well, is is this a good story? Am I happy to be living by this narrative or happy to be living by this narrative or happy to be living by this narrative or not? not? not? >> Another phrase like what's the story >> Another phrase like what's the story >> Another phrase like what's the story beneath the story? I mean, when somebody beneath the story? I mean, when somebody beneath the story? I mean, when somebody says, I just need to be happy. That says, I just need to be happy. That says, I just need to be happy. That sounds like a story, but it's not. Like sounds like a story, but it's not. Like sounds like a story, but it's not. Like there's there's almost always a question there's there's almost always a question there's there's almost always a question beneath that question, which is what do beneath that question, which is what do beneath that question, which is what do you think you need to have to be happy, you think you need to have to be happy, you think you need to have to be happy, you know, and and how do you think you know, and and how do you think you know, and and how do you think you're going to get that? And that you're going to get that? And that you're going to get that? And that that's that that's that next level. Um that's that that's that next level. Um that's that that's that next level. Um it's not just the awareness of, oh, I I it's not just the awareness of, oh, I I it's not just the awareness of, oh, I I want to be happy. Great. But what do you want to be happy. Great. But what do you want to be happy. Great. But what do you feel like you need to have? I want to be feel like you need to have? I want to be feel like you need to have? I want to be free. Great. But what do you think will free. Great. But what do you think will free. Great. But what do you think will bring freedom? I want an identity.

bring freedom? I want an identity. bring freedom? I want an identity. Great. And I think you have to keep Great. And I think you have to keep Great. And I think you have to keep asking the question beneath the asking the question beneath the asking the question beneath the question. And I I think we hope we hoped question. And I I think we hope we hoped question. And I I think we hope we hoped that this book would be helpful for that this book would be helpful for that this book would be helpful for that. that. that. >> Your dad was so powerful and and really >> Your dad was so powerful and and really >> Your dad was so powerful and and really helpful on that, wasn't he? What's helpful on that, wasn't he? What's helpful on that, wasn't he? What's what's the the sin beneath the sin? what's the the sin beneath the sin? what's the the sin beneath the sin? What's the question beneath the What's the question beneath the What's the question beneath the question? What's the story beneath the question? What's the story beneath the question? What's the story beneath the story? And it's such a brilliant story? And it's such a brilliant story? And it's such a brilliant diagnostic because often we don't the diagnostic because often we don't the diagnostic because often we don't the stories we tell ourselves are not the stories we tell ourselves are not the stories we tell ourselves are not the real stories, are they? They're they're real stories, are they? They're they're real stories, are they? They're they're justifications that make us feel good. justifications that make us feel good. justifications that make us feel good. >> And then when we get to the actual story >> And then when we get to the actual story >> And then when we get to the actual story underneath the story, underneath the story, underneath the story, >> then we can really see what's driving >> then we can really see what's driving >> then we can really see what's driving us. And often it's it's not what we us. And often it's it's not what we us. And often it's it's not what we would hope. And it but it gives us the would hope. And it but it gives us the would hope. And it but it gives us the opportunity then to to address it in opportunity then to to address it in opportunity then to to address it in prayer to do something about it prayer to do something about it prayer to do something about it >> with others. Well, that's actually where >> with others. Well, that's actually where >> with others. Well, that's actually where it's be. It's great to sorry for it's be. It's great to sorry for it's be. It's great to sorry for interrupting. Um, it's great to be a interrupting. Um, it's great to be a interrupting. Um, it's great to be a skeptical New Yorker because there's skeptical New Yorker because there's skeptical New Yorker because there's always when you realize that you're the always when you realize that you're the always when you realize that you're the hero of all your stories, the skeptical hero of all your stories, the skeptical hero of all your stories, the skeptical New Yorker me goes, "But we know that New Yorker me goes, "But we know that New Yorker me goes, "But we know that can't be true." So, what what is it?

can't be true." So, what what is it? can't be true." So, what what is it? What what what am why am I always the What what what am why am I always the What what what am why am I always the winner in my story? And you know what? winner in my story? And you know what? winner in my story? And you know what? What do we do about that? But sorry for What do we do about that? But sorry for What do we do about that? But sorry for interrupting. Keep going. interrupting. Keep going. interrupting. Keep going. >> Yeah. No, absolutely. I I think the the >> Yeah. No, absolutely. I I think the the >> Yeah. No, absolutely. I I think the the skeptical Yorkshire would would join the skeptical Yorkshire would would join the skeptical Yorkshire would would join the New Yorker at that point. New Yorker at that point. New Yorker at that point. >> That's right. and say, "Um, >> That's right. and say, "Um, >> That's right. and say, "Um, that's not as good as thy thinks, lad." that's not as good as thy thinks, lad." that's not as good as thy thinks, lad." Or something like that. [laughter] Or something like that. [laughter] Or something like that. [laughter] >> I like that. That's a better accent than >> I like that. That's a better accent than >> I like that. That's a better accent than than than than >> Um, let's let's dive into some of these >> Um, let's let's dive into some of these >> Um, let's let's dive into some of these stories specifically. You you begin the stories specifically. You you begin the stories specifically. You you begin the book with identity. Um, I'm guessing you book with identity. Um, I'm guessing you book with identity. Um, I'm guessing you do that for for a reason. Why do you do that for for a reason. Why do you do that for for a reason. Why do you think that's the first story that that think that's the first story that that think that's the first story that that you engage with in the book? Why is that you engage with in the book? Why is that you engage with in the book? Why is that a central story today? a central story today? a central story today? >> Well, first, it's the one that I think >> Well, first, it's the one that I think >> Well, first, it's the one that I think dad started with. Um but we I think he dad started with. Um but we I think he dad started with. Um but we I think he did because it it sort of interweavves did because it it sort of interweavves did because it it sort of interweavves into all of them. Um into all of them. Um into all of them. Um one of the changes happened in modern one of the changes happened in modern one of the changes happened in modern identity and I'd love to hear your identity and I'd love to hear your identity and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too is preodern thoughts on this too is preodern thoughts on this too is preodern identity always had um identity always had um identity always had um fact was external to the person and fact was external to the person and fact was external to the person and opinion was internal and you needed to opinion was internal and you needed to opinion was internal and you needed to align yourself with the facts outside.

align yourself with the facts outside. align yourself with the facts outside. You need to uh the passions the You need to uh the passions the You need to uh the passions the feelings inside are are not true. what's feelings inside are are not true. what's feelings inside are are not true. what's true is what your society tells you, true is what your society tells you, true is what your society tells you, what your family tells you. Um, and you what your family tells you. Um, and you what your family tells you. Um, and you need to align yourself with that. I need to align yourself with that. I need to align yourself with that. I think what's happened is for various think what's happened is for various think what's happened is for various reasons, including probably modern reasons, including probably modern reasons, including probably modern culture saying, hey, there's there was a culture saying, hey, there's there was a culture saying, hey, there's there was a lot of hurt that came out of that. They lot of hurt that came out of that. They lot of hurt that came out of that. They reversed it, saying, hey, fact is now reversed it, saying, hey, fact is now reversed it, saying, hey, fact is now internal and opinion is everyone else internal and opinion is everyone else internal and opinion is everyone else outside, and you need to align yourself outside, and you need to align yourself outside, and you need to align yourself with that fact. You need to find who you with that fact. You need to find who you with that fact. You need to find who you really are and uh by looking on the really are and uh by looking on the really are and uh by looking on the inside and then making everybody on the inside and then making everybody on the inside and then making everybody on the outside align with that. That's where outside align with that. That's where outside align with that. That's where the phrase follow your heart and you do the phrase follow your heart and you do the phrase follow your heart and you do you and whatnot comes out of. But you and whatnot comes out of. But you and whatnot comes out of. But because of that, that's why um because of that, that's why um because of that, that's why um that that's sort of the modus operende that that's sort of the modus operende that that's sort of the modus operende of of our culture where you will be most of of our culture where you will be most of of our culture where you will be most happy, you'll be most true, you'll be happy, you'll be most true, you'll be happy, you'll be most true, you'll be most free, you'll have the most power, most free, you'll have the most power, most free, you'll have the most power, you'll be able to get progress, you'll you'll be able to get progress, you'll you'll be able to get progress, you'll be able to get these things if you are be able to get these things if you are be able to get these things if you are most aligned with yourself uh with who most aligned with yourself uh with who most aligned with yourself uh with who you're supposed to be, with who you are.

you're supposed to be, with who you are. you're supposed to be, with who you are. So look inside uh and start there. And So look inside uh and start there. And So look inside uh and start there. And so I think that's why we started with so I think that's why we started with so I think that's why we started with that because it it does align with all that because it it does align with all that because it it does align with all the other ones. Um but and then there's the other ones. Um but and then there's the other ones. Um but and then there's there's a conversation of how these they there's a conversation of how these they there's a conversation of how these they do interact with each other. They're do interact with each other. They're do interact with each other. They're both intention but also uh parallel to both intention but also uh parallel to both intention but also uh parallel to each other. But it made sense to start each other. But it made sense to start each other. But it made sense to start with identity. with identity. with identity. >> There's a real tension there, isn't >> There's a real tension there, isn't >> There's a real tension there, isn't there? And just listening to to that there? And just listening to to that there? And just listening to to that last response, it isn't it so last response, it isn't it so last response, it isn't it so interesting that all this is in the interesting that all this is in the interesting that all this is in the second person? It's all about you rather second person? It's all about you rather second person? It's all about you rather than in the first person, all about me. than in the first person, all about me. than in the first person, all about me. Like if it was really that I find these Like if it was really that I find these Like if it was really that I find these ideas inside myself and my sense of ideas inside myself and my sense of ideas inside myself and my sense of identity comes from within. Surely the identity comes from within. Surely the identity comes from within. Surely the slogan would be I do me, wouldn't it? slogan would be I do me, wouldn't it? slogan would be I do me, wouldn't it? Like you do you. It's like I'm telling Like you do you. It's like I'm telling Like you do you. It's like I'm telling you you you >> how you should be. You should find your >> how you should be. You should find your >> how you should be. You should find your identity in yourself. identity in yourself. identity in yourself. >> That's such a declarative Why do you >> That's such a declarative Why do you >> That's such a declarative Why do you think that's a great point? Why do you think that's a great point? Why do you think that's a great point? Why do you think that is? think that is? think that is? >> I I wonder whether and you you tell me >> I I wonder whether and you you tell me >> I I wonder whether and you you tell me what you think about this that we so the what you think about this that we so the what you think about this that we so the the it's a story beneath the story, the it's a story beneath the story, the it's a story beneath the story, isn't it? So the the surface ideology is isn't it? So the the surface ideology is isn't it? So the the surface ideology is I am the captain of my own ship. I do I am the captain of my own ship. I do I am the captain of my own ship. I do me. Uh I make my identity. But the story me. Uh I make my identity. But the story me. Uh I make my identity. But the story beneath that story perhaps is that I'm beneath that story perhaps is that I'm beneath that story perhaps is that I'm utterly reliant on a community, utterly reliant on a community, utterly reliant on a community, whichever community it is, first of all whichever community it is, first of all whichever community it is, first of all to tell me what the acceptable forms of to tell me what the acceptable forms of to tell me what the acceptable forms of me doing me are, what is likely to be

me doing me are, what is likely to be me doing me are, what is likely to be validated and then to provide that validated and then to provide that validated and then to provide that validation for for people to say it it's validation for for people to say it it's validation for for people to say it it's wonderful that you're doing you in this wonderful that you're doing you in this wonderful that you're doing you in this particular way. And so there is a sense particular way. And so there is a sense particular way. And so there is a sense in which the in which the in which the the way that we do identities is very the way that we do identities is very the way that we do identities is very internalized. internalized. internalized. >> But when you start unpicking that it it >> But when you start unpicking that it it >> But when you start unpicking that it it it is reliant on a community first of it is reliant on a community first of it is reliant on a community first of all to create a space in which that all to create a space in which that all to create a space in which that internalized identity can happen and internalized identity can happen and internalized identity can happen and then to give some options that are then to give some options that are then to give some options that are likely to be validated and then to likely to be validated and then to likely to be validated and then to validate it. And so it's not validate it. And so it's not validate it. And so it's not >> the story is more complex than identity >> the story is more complex than identity >> the story is more complex than identity used to be just given to us from the used to be just given to us from the used to be just given to us from the outside and now it's just made from outside and now it's just made from outside and now it's just made from insiders because insiders because insiders because you can't identity doesn't work without you can't identity doesn't work without you can't identity doesn't work without a community to validate it and the a community to validate it and the a community to validate it and the community will set boundaries on what it community will set boundaries on what it community will set boundaries on what it is willing to validate. What what do you is willing to validate. What what do you is willing to validate. What what do you think? think? think? >> That's such a good point. I never >> That's such a good point. I never >> That's such a good point. I never thought of that. You do you is a thought of that. You do you is a thought of that. You do you is a declarative statement. It is an declarative statement. It is an declarative statement. It is an imperative. It's a command ironically imperative. It's a command ironically imperative. It's a command ironically >> from one to the other. If it was really >> from one to the other. If it was really >> from one to the other. If it was really all about you and your internal view, all about you and your internal view, all about you and your internal view, then you wouldn't need confirmation from then you wouldn't need confirmation from then you wouldn't need confirmation from anyone else about whatever I come up anyone else about whatever I come up anyone else about whatever I come up with. But if you look at how we're doing with. But if you look at how we're doing with. But if you look at how we're doing it, we still whatever I come into it, we still whatever I come into it, we still whatever I come into contact with, whatever I am, I still contact with, whatever I am, I still contact with, whatever I am, I still need the world to affirm that. This is need the world to affirm that. This is need the world to affirm that. This is actually why one of the we talk about actually why one of the we talk about actually why one of the we talk about this in the book. One of the problems is this in the book. One of the problems is this in the book. One of the problems is with this view of identity, you end up with this view of identity, you end up with this view of identity, you end up weaponizing different views of identity weaponizing different views of identity weaponizing different views of identity towards each other. uh you have the JK

towards each other. uh you have the JK towards each other. uh you have the JK Rowling feminists that are at waring Rowling feminists that are at waring Rowling feminists that are at waring with uh the sort of trans rights with uh the sort of trans rights with uh the sort of trans rights individuals who have a very different individuals who have a very different individuals who have a very different view of how gender and identity work but view of how gender and identity work but view of how gender and identity work but they're they're uh zero sum games they're they're uh zero sum games they're they're uh zero sum games because there's no way when you start because there's no way when you start because there's no way when you start identifying I I need you to hear what identifying I I need you to hear what identifying I I need you to hear what I'm saying you can't nobody's I'm saying you can't nobody's I'm saying you can't nobody's comfortable going well that's my view comfortable going well that's my view comfortable going well that's my view you know you have your view we say that you know you have your view we say that you know you have your view we say that on the surface this this gets into the on the surface this this gets into the on the surface this this gets into the morality narrative which I summarize by morality narrative which I summarize by morality narrative which I summarize by saying uh the the morality nar modern saying uh the the morality nar modern saying uh the the morality nar modern morality narrative is morality narrative is morality narrative is uh morals are relative. You know there's uh morals are relative. You know there's uh morals are relative. You know there's no s there's no right it's all relative no s there's no right it's all relative no s there's no right it's all relative but if you don't do it our way we're but if you don't do it our way we're but if you don't do it our way we're going to cancel you which is so ironic going to cancel you which is so ironic going to cancel you which is so ironic but that's the world but that's why but that's the world but that's why but that's the world but that's why because that gets back to the identity because that gets back to the identity because that gets back to the identity thing that we still need people to hold thing that we still need people to hold thing that we still need people to hold our view. uh whether we pretend like hey our view. uh whether we pretend like hey our view. uh whether we pretend like hey it doesn't matter what you you you do it doesn't matter what you you you do it doesn't matter what you you you do you but then why are we still telling you but then why are we still telling you but then why are we still telling you to do it it's still my version you to do it it's still my version you to do it it's still my version >> yes >> yes >> yes >> it's a great point >> it's a great point >> it's a great point >> if I do me because you tell me to do me >> if I do me because you tell me to do me >> if I do me because you tell me to do me am I really doing me am I really doing me am I really doing me >> or am I just internalizing >> or am I just internalizing >> or am I just internalizing what you've told me to do what you've told me to do what you've told me to do >> well which is the whole story thing is >> well which is the whole story thing is >> well which is the whole story thing is that now we've why are we telling to do that now we've why are we telling to do that now we've why are we telling to do that because that's the vision that our that because that's the vision that our that because that's the vision that our culture is saying will lead to the most culture is saying will lead to the most culture is saying will lead to the most amount of uh the least amount of wars amount of uh the least amount of wars amount of uh the least amount of wars and religious fights of the preodern and religious fights of the preodern and religious fights of the preodern people cuz hey, everybody's doing it people cuz hey, everybody's doing it people cuz hey, everybody's doing it their version, but what we don't realize their version, but what we don't realize their version, but what we don't realize is we're still weaponizing and still is we're still weaponizing and still is we're still weaponizing and still doing the same thing.

doing the same thing. doing the same thing. >> Yes. And I think >> Yes. And I think >> Yes. And I think people who are better at sociology than people who are better at sociology than people who are better at sociology than I am could probably unpick that even I am could probably unpick that even I am could probably unpick that even further and say there are other further and say there are other further and say there are other incentives at play that there are groups incentives at play that there are groups incentives at play that there are groups interest groups in society that have an interest groups in society that have an interest groups in society that have an interest in you doing you for example it interest in you doing you for example it interest in you doing you for example it allows them to sell more products to allows them to sell more products to allows them to sell more products to more people just just a very basic more people just just a very basic more people just just a very basic example. So there's there's often example. So there's there's often example. So there's there's often incentives baked into these narratives incentives baked into these narratives incentives baked into these narratives that are not obvious on the surface. that are not obvious on the surface. that are not obvious on the surface. >> Well, and to be clear, it's okay to want >> Well, and to be clear, it's okay to want >> Well, and to be clear, it's okay to want a narrative. It's the longing to have a narrative. It's the longing to have a narrative. It's the longing to have sorry, it's it's okay to have want an sorry, it's it's okay to have want an sorry, it's it's okay to have want an identity and need an identity. I think identity and need an identity. I think identity and need an identity. I think there's something very human about that. there's something very human about that. there's something very human about that. It's is the way we're going about it the It's is the way we're going about it the It's is the way we're going about it the the way that we'll complete us and uh the way that we'll complete us and uh the way that we'll complete us and uh not do injury to ourselves and others. not do injury to ourselves and others. not do injury to ourselves and others. And I I think there's a lot of evidence And I I think there's a lot of evidence And I I think there's a lot of evidence showing that our version is not doing showing that our version is not doing showing that our version is not doing such a great I'm not saying the such a great I'm not saying the such a great I'm not saying the premodern version did a better job which premodern version did a better job which premodern version did a better job which then you know I think pushes the then you know I think pushes the then you know I think pushes the narrative no pun intended forward to narrative no pun intended forward to narrative no pun intended forward to well what would be a better way to do well what would be a better way to do well what would be a better way to do identity identity identity >> and you want a story of identity that's >> and you want a story of identity that's >> and you want a story of identity that's honest don't you that that's not trying honest don't you that that's not trying honest don't you that that's not trying to do one thing when it's actually doing to do one thing when it's actually doing to do one thing when it's actually doing another and I think the danger that another and I think the danger that another and I think the danger that we're circling around in this we're circling around in this we're circling around in this conversation or or the anxiety that we conversation or or the anxiety that we conversation or or the anxiety that we have is look the is the you do you story have is look the is the you do you story have is look the is the you do you story or what whatever slogan you want to put

or what whatever slogan you want to put or what whatever slogan you want to put in that box is it actually what it seems in that box is it actually what it seems in that box is it actually what it seems like it is it selling one thing and then like it is it selling one thing and then like it is it selling one thing and then there's a bit of a bait and switch and there's a bit of a bait and switch and there's a bit of a bait and switch and it's actually doing another thing and I it's actually doing another thing and I it's actually doing another thing and I think whatever stories we want to run think whatever stories we want to run think whatever stories we want to run our lives our lives our lives >> we would be very uncomfortable if those >> we would be very uncomfortable if those >> we would be very uncomfortable if those weren't honest stories doing what they weren't honest stories doing what they weren't honest stories doing what they actually say they're doing rather than actually say they're doing rather than actually say they're doing rather than selling us one thing and actually you selling us one thing and actually you selling us one thing and actually you you go home with a different thing. you go home with a different thing. you go home with a different thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I' I'd love to come back to this >> I' I'd love to come back to this >> I' I'd love to come back to this morality story that that you were morality story that that you were morality story that that you were talking about a moment ago because it talking about a moment ago because it talking about a moment ago because it seems to me that the way you present seems to me that the way you present seems to me that the way you present that in the book is very similar that in the book is very similar that in the book is very similar actually to this tension at the heart of actually to this tension at the heart of actually to this tension at the heart of the um identity story. So morality is is the um identity story. So morality is is the um identity story. So morality is is saying two things to us at once. uh saying two things to us at once. uh saying two things to us at once. uh morals are socially constructed you know morals are socially constructed you know morals are socially constructed you know however you want to put that that you however you want to put that that you however you want to put that that you are are are you have the right to say what is good you have the right to say what is good you have the right to say what is good and bad in your own world and also and bad in your own world and also and bad in your own world and also justice is morally obligatory we will justice is morally obligatory we will justice is morally obligatory we will come down and you like a ton of bricks come down and you like a ton of bricks come down and you like a ton of bricks if you end up somewhere that that we if you end up somewhere that that we if you end up somewhere that that we don't like whoever the we is don't like whoever the we is don't like whoever the we is and I think that shows us something and I think that shows us something and I think that shows us something really precious to understand about us really precious to understand about us really precious to understand about us as human beings perhaps see what you as human beings perhaps see what you as human beings perhaps see what you think of this We we don't like moral think of this We we don't like moral think of this We we don't like moral absolutes. There's something that makes absolutes. There's something that makes absolutes. There's something that makes us uncomfortable us uncomfortable us uncomfortable >> in in the presence of moral absolutes, >> in in the presence of moral absolutes, >> in in the presence of moral absolutes, but but but >> we also really really want them. And I I >> we also really really want them. And I I >> we also really really want them. And I I wonder what that shows us about us as

wonder what that shows us about us as wonder what that shows us about us as human beings. Why why do we find it so human beings. Why why do we find it so human beings. Why why do we find it so difficult to live without moral difficult to live without moral difficult to live without moral absolutes? But why do we find them so absolutes? But why do we find them so absolutes? But why do we find them so objectionable? objectionable? objectionable? >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I think I I start with >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I think I I start with >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I think I I start with that chapter with uh that chapter with uh that chapter with uh going on a walk with one of my neighbors going on a walk with one of my neighbors going on a walk with one of my neighbors and and he was saying like he knows I'm and and he was saying like he knows I'm and and he was saying like he knows I'm a pastor and so he's like, "Hey, I love a pastor and so he's like, "Hey, I love a pastor and so he's like, "Hey, I love going on a walk with you. Just don't going on a walk with you. Just don't going on a walk with you. Just don't don't proitize me." And I was like, don't proitize me." And I was like, don't proitize me." And I was like, "Wait a second. That's not by you saying "Wait a second. That's not by you saying "Wait a second. That's not by you saying don't proitize me, you're proitizing me. don't proitize me, you're proitizing me. don't proitize me, you're proitizing me. You're you're actually that you're You're you're actually that you're You're you're actually that you're you're still why does your way get to you're still why does your way get to you're still why does your way get to win and and mine doesn't?" I think and win and and mine doesn't?" I think and win and and mine doesn't?" I think and again this is where the power narrative again this is where the power narrative again this is where the power narrative interacts as well. But I think it's so interacts as well. But I think it's so interacts as well. But I think it's so fascinating that the minute you say, fascinating that the minute you say, fascinating that the minute you say, "Hey, there's no such thing as "Hey, there's no such thing as "Hey, there's no such thing as absolutes." That's an absolute. The absolutes." That's an absolute. The absolutes." That's an absolute. The minute you say there's such thing as a minute you say there's such thing as a minute you say there's such thing as a morality, that is a moral statement. I I morality, that is a moral statement. I I morality, that is a moral statement. I I I think Chris, I'd love to hear your I think Chris, I'd love to hear your I think Chris, I'd love to hear your thoughts, but I think the problem is thoughts, but I think the problem is thoughts, but I think the problem is that we don't we don't realize that that we don't we don't realize that that we don't we don't realize that every every every Tell me if I'm wrong about this. I feel Tell me if I'm wrong about this. I feel Tell me if I'm wrong about this. I feel like most of our phrases are moral like most of our phrases are moral like most of our phrases are moral statements, and we don't realize that statements, and we don't realize that statements, and we don't realize that they are. even a benign statement of I they are. even a benign statement of I they are. even a benign statement of I like socks that that's a moral statement like socks that that's a moral statement like socks that that's a moral statement because you're you're making a statement because you're you're making a statement because you're you're making a statement about materialism and now that I know about materialism and now that I know about materialism and now that I know we're getting a little nerdy on this but we're getting a little nerdy on this but we're getting a little nerdy on this but I if our statements are moral then there I if our statements are moral then there I if our statements are moral then there is a right and wrong and we can't live is a right and wrong and we can't live is a right and wrong and we can't live without them but we can't live with them without them but we can't live with them without them but we can't live with them because because because we've history shows whenever you hold a we've history shows whenever you hold a we've history shows whenever you hold a right and wrong you tend to uh abu you right and wrong you tend to uh abu you right and wrong you tend to uh abu you tend to hit you think you're right,

tend to hit you think you're right, tend to hit you think you're right, they're wrong, and let's have a war they're wrong, and let's have a war they're wrong, and let's have a war about it. about it. about it. >> Wonder if part of the problem is another >> Wonder if part of the problem is another >> Wonder if part of the problem is another related narrative, which is that the related narrative, which is that the related narrative, which is that the narrative that we've told ourselves narrative that we've told ourselves narrative that we've told ourselves about freedom, about freedom, about freedom, >> which is the the strange idea that in >> which is the the strange idea that in >> which is the the strange idea that in order to be free, I need to be radically order to be free, I need to be radically order to be free, I need to be radically unconstrained. every everything that unconstrained. every everything that unconstrained. every everything that that constrains me in one way or another that constrains me in one way or another that constrains me in one way or another is an enemy to my freedom. is an enemy to my freedom. is an enemy to my freedom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we see moral absolutes as >> And we see moral absolutes as >> And we see moral absolutes as constraints constraints constraints and therefore we see them as a threat to and therefore we see them as a threat to and therefore we see them as a threat to our freedom. Um yeah whereas that's a our freedom. Um yeah whereas that's a our freedom. Um yeah whereas that's a very culturally odd and quite specific very culturally odd and quite specific very culturally odd and quite specific way to think of constraints. And you way to think of constraints. And you way to think of constraints. And you know again your your dad was really know again your your dad was really know again your your dad was really brilliant about this in terms of you brilliant about this in terms of you brilliant about this in terms of you know if I want to be a a great piano know if I want to be a a great piano know if I want to be a a great piano player say and have the freedom to player say and have the freedom to player say and have the freedom to improvise on the piano then I'm going to improvise on the piano then I'm going to improvise on the piano then I'm going to need to constrain myself quite severely need to constrain myself quite severely need to constrain myself quite severely over a number of years to do the over a number of years to do the over a number of years to do the practice. And practice. And practice. And the the fruit of that is this glorious the the fruit of that is this glorious the the fruit of that is this glorious freedom. And so constraint and freedom freedom. And so constraint and freedom freedom. And so constraint and freedom are not waring against each other.

are not waring against each other. are not waring against each other. they're actually collaborating there. they're actually collaborating there. they're actually collaborating there. And if if we could And if if we could And if if we could put this freedom narrative on the table put this freedom narrative on the table put this freedom narrative on the table and look at the way we think of and look at the way we think of and look at the way we think of constraints and think that through a constraints and think that through a constraints and think that through a little bit more consciously. We we we little bit more consciously. We we we little bit more consciously. We we we might come to see that moral absolutes might come to see that moral absolutes might come to see that moral absolutes are not the are not the are not the you know the bogeymen. you know the bogeymen. you know the bogeymen. >> We sort of assume they are. because any >> We sort of assume they are. because any >> We sort of assume they are. because any constraint on me must necessarily be a constraint on me must necessarily be a constraint on me must necessarily be a threat to my self-expression and to my threat to my self-expression and to my threat to my self-expression and to my freedom. freedom. freedom. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think um in the book that >> Yeah. Yeah. I think um in the book that >> Yeah. Yeah. I think um in the book that chapter on freedom where the narrative chapter on freedom where the narrative chapter on freedom where the narrative is you'll be happiest, you'll you have is you'll be happiest, you'll you have is you'll be happiest, you'll you have the most identity. You'll the goal of the most identity. You'll the goal of the most identity. You'll the goal of life is to have freedom from the most life is to have freedom from the most life is to have freedom from the most amount of constraints. That's only amount of constraints. That's only amount of constraints. That's only looking at freedom at from things. It's looking at freedom at from things. It's looking at freedom at from things. It's not it doesn't really have a good not it doesn't really have a good not it doesn't really have a good understanding of freedom to what are you understanding of freedom to what are you understanding of freedom to what are you free to do? And you already said it, uh, free to do? And you already said it, uh, free to do? And you already said it, uh, Chris, that really to do anything with Chris, that really to do anything with Chris, that really to do anything with any kind of skill or I was just thinking any kind of skill or I was just thinking any kind of skill or I was just thinking as you were talking, if I want freedom as you were talking, if I want freedom as you were talking, if I want freedom from, uh, the cares of the world, I need from, uh, the cares of the world, I need from, uh, the cares of the world, I need to have enough money in my bank account to have enough money in my bank account to have enough money in my bank account to retire. How do I do that? I have to to retire. How do I do that? I have to to retire. How do I do that? I have to bind myself to make the money to do bind myself to make the money to do bind myself to make the money to do that. All freedoms for or from can only that. All freedoms for or from can only that. All freedoms for or from can only be achieved with freedoms to something.

be achieved with freedoms to something. be achieved with freedoms to something. getting a skill, getting a uh you know getting a skill, getting a uh you know getting a skill, getting a uh you know sport, um memorizing anything, it's sport, um memorizing anything, it's sport, um memorizing anything, it's always a constraint. And I think dad did always a constraint. And I think dad did always a constraint. And I think dad did it well when he says that if that's it well when he says that if that's it well when he says that if that's true, if all reality always has some true, if all reality always has some true, if all reality always has some constraints. constraints. constraints. And I think the example I used just to And I think the example I used just to And I think the example I used just to make it personal was listen, if I want make it personal was listen, if I want make it personal was listen, if I want to eat whatever I want, I can have that to eat whatever I want, I can have that to eat whatever I want, I can have that freedom, but it will bind me to an early freedom, but it will bind me to an early freedom, but it will bind me to an early death because that's just you can't have death because that's just you can't have death because that's just you can't have freedom from all things. There's still freedom from all things. There's still freedom from all things. There's still you're still binding yourself. Um you're still binding yourself. Um you're still binding yourself. Um so the the real question is not how do so the the real question is not how do so the the real question is not how do you have freedom from all things. The you have freedom from all things. The you have freedom from all things. The real question is is what constraints real question is is what constraints real question is is what constraints will bring the most amount of freedom in will bring the most amount of freedom in will bring the most amount of freedom in your life? I I if you can't get away your life? I I if you can't get away your life? I I if you can't get away from all constraints, there's always from all constraints, there's always from all constraints, there's always some. Then which constraints are the some. Then which constraints are the some. Then which constraints are the most freeing constraints to put you most freeing constraints to put you most freeing constraints to put you under? I think that's the better under? I think that's the better under? I think that's the better question that the book tries to answer. question that the book tries to answer. question that the book tries to answer. >> Yeah. And if you think about some of >> Yeah. And if you think about some of >> Yeah. And if you think about some of life's constraints, I think it really life's constraints, I think it really life's constraints, I think it really brings that into focus. Like love is brings that into focus. Like love is brings that into focus. Like love is incredibly constraining, isn't it? How incredibly constraining, isn't it? How incredibly constraining, isn't it? How inconvenient to have all your passions inconvenient to have all your passions inconvenient to have all your passions and thoughts directed towards another and thoughts directed towards another and thoughts directed towards another person. How how much that limits you in person. How how much that limits you in person. How how much that limits you in terms of your life capacities. And yet terms of your life capacities. And yet terms of your life capacities. And yet you speak to someone in love and they you speak to someone in love and they you speak to someone in love and they say, "What are you talking about? This say, "What are you talking about? This say, "What are you talking about? This is brilliant. I feel the most alive I've is brilliant. I feel the most alive I've is brilliant. I feel the most alive I've ever felt completely sort of devoted to ever felt completely sort of devoted to ever felt completely sort of devoted to this other person. Um, this isn't this other person. Um, this isn't this other person. Um, this isn't constraint. This isn't miserable constraint. This isn't miserable constraint. This isn't miserable incarceration. you know this is life. I

incarceration. you know this is life. I incarceration. you know this is life. I want more of this and so rewiring our want more of this and so rewiring our want more of this and so rewiring our sense of what how constraints play out sense of what how constraints play out sense of what how constraints play out in our lives. I think it would be would in our lives. I think it would be would in our lives. I think it would be would be really be really be really >> but you actually point out in the book >> but you actually point out in the book >> but you actually point out in the book we talk about how there are people that we talk about how there are people that we talk about how there are people that point out that if you want love you have point out that if you want love you have point out that if you want love you have to bind yourself like if you want to bind yourself like if you want to bind yourself like if you want absolute freedom then you can't have any absolute freedom then you can't have any absolute freedom then you can't have any restriction that means nobody has a say restriction that means nobody has a say restriction that means nobody has a say in your life you'll never have love and in your life you'll never have love and in your life you'll never have love and this is why there might be some you know this is why there might be some you know this is why there might be some you know loneliness and things skyrocketing in in loneliness and things skyrocketing in in loneliness and things skyrocketing in in our our culture because uh by definition our our culture because uh by definition our our culture because uh by definition love takes binding yourself to someone love takes binding yourself to someone love takes binding yourself to someone else and them binding themselves to you else and them binding themselves to you else and them binding themselves to you by definition restricts you from getting by definition restricts you from getting by definition restricts you from getting to do anything and everything that you to do anything and everything that you to do anything and everything that you ever wanted to do. But but by that in ever wanted to do. But but by that in ever wanted to do. But but by that in that restriction there is a bigger that restriction there is a bigger that restriction there is a bigger beauty and wonder and uh power possible beauty and wonder and uh power possible beauty and wonder and uh power possible and that's where the the tension is. and that's where the the tension is. and that's where the the tension is. Back to that that term like we we want Back to that that term like we we want Back to that that term like we we want the love but we also want the freedom the love but we also want the freedom the love but we also want the freedom but we you can't have the freedom and but we you can't have the freedom and but we you can't have the freedom and the love and and we talk about that.

the love and and we talk about that. the love and and we talk about that. >> It's another one of these tensions isn't >> It's another one of these tensions isn't >> It's another one of these tensions isn't it? All these narratives have these it? All these narratives have these it? All these narratives have these fundamental tensions at the heart of fundamental tensions at the heart of fundamental tensions at the heart of them. Um, where that they're sold to us them. Um, where that they're sold to us them. Um, where that they're sold to us as these neat sort of simple stories, as these neat sort of simple stories, as these neat sort of simple stories, but but they're actually but but they're actually but but they're actually in in tension with each other, in in tension with each other, in in tension with each other, >> inside each other a lot of the time. I'd >> inside each other a lot of the time. I'd >> inside each other a lot of the time. I'd love to talk about another narrative love to talk about another narrative love to talk about another narrative that you discuss in the book that the that you discuss in the book that the that you discuss in the book that the power narrative. And the way that you power narrative. And the way that you power narrative. And the way that you set this up is that the the world is set this up is that the the world is set this up is that the the world is divided into oppressors and oppressed divided into oppressors and oppressed divided into oppressors and oppressed and allies today. But you also say and allies today. But you also say and allies today. But you also say almost no one identifies an as an almost no one identifies an as an almost no one identifies an as an oppressor. No one's saying, "Oh, I'm the oppressor. No one's saying, "Oh, I'm the oppressor. No one's saying, "Oh, I'm the oppressor over here. Look at me." oppressor over here. Look at me." oppressor over here. Look at me." >> Which is ironic and um problematic. Um, >> Which is ironic and um problematic. Um, >> Which is ironic and um problematic. Um, but I I wonder whether this is a a but I I wonder whether this is a a but I I wonder whether this is a a recent narrative. Um, because this recent narrative. Um, because this recent narrative. Um, because this language of oppressor and oppressed language of oppressor and oppressed language of oppressor and oppressed seems quite recent in in culture, seems quite recent in in culture, seems quite recent in in culture, doesn't it? Is is this a recent story or doesn't it? Is is this a recent story or doesn't it? Is is this a recent story or is it tapping into older patterns, do is it tapping into older patterns, do is it tapping into older patterns, do you think?

you think? you think? >> Yeah, it's a great question, Chris, and >> Yeah, it's a great question, Chris, and >> Yeah, it's a great question, Chris, and I would love to hear your thoughts on I would love to hear your thoughts on I would love to hear your thoughts on this. um from dad's notes when he this. um from dad's notes when he this. um from dad's notes when he comment when he was talking about this comment when he was talking about this comment when he was talking about this narrative he actually said uh I remember narrative he actually said uh I remember narrative he actually said uh I remember him saying this he said uh that the him saying this he said uh that the him saying this he said uh that the power narrative is probably the most power narrative is probably the most power narrative is probably the most recent it's the youngest narrative out recent it's the youngest narrative out recent it's the youngest narrative out of all of them whereas you could you can of all of them whereas you could you can of all of them whereas you could you can see identity and freedom other places he see identity and freedom other places he see identity and freedom other places he says this is more situated in 20th says this is more situated in 20th says this is more situated in 20th century continental philosophy like century continental philosophy like century continental philosophy like Nietze and Fuko who said hey you have to Nietze and Fuko who said hey you have to Nietze and Fuko who said hey you have to have a will to power here and have a will to power here and have a will to power here and everything's about power but I I don't everything's about power but I I don't everything's about power but I I don't know what what do you think That's a really interesting question, That's a really interesting question, isn't it? I I think there is something isn't it? I I think there is something isn't it? I I think there is something that there is a watershed with nature, that there is a watershed with nature, that there is a watershed with nature, but I I wonder whether there's also a an but I I wonder whether there's also a an but I I wonder whether there's also a an undercurrent, a very old cultural undercurrent, a very old cultural undercurrent, a very old cultural undercurrent that that's being tapped undercurrent that that's being tapped undercurrent that that's being tapped into here. into here. into here. My mind is taken to to Rome, to the My mind is taken to to Rome, to the My mind is taken to to Rome, to the ancient Roman Empire. And it it seems to ancient Roman Empire. And it it seems to ancient Roman Empire. And it it seems to me that that's a society that that's me that that's a society that that's me that that's a society that that's very focused on power and how power very focused on power and how power very focused on power and how power flows between people and who has power.

flows between people and who has power. flows between people and who has power. >> Or Sparta. Yeah. Sparta as well. >> Or Sparta. Yeah. Sparta as well. >> Or Sparta. Yeah. Sparta as well. >> Sparta. Yeah. Absolutely. Or Sparta. And >> Sparta. Yeah. Absolutely. Or Sparta. And >> Sparta. Yeah. Absolutely. Or Sparta. And then even beyond that, if you think of then even beyond that, if you think of then even beyond that, if you think of the Genesis 3 narrative, you know, the Genesis 3 narrative, you know, the Genesis 3 narrative, you know, what's going on there? It's a a battle what's going on there? It's a a battle what's going on there? It's a a battle to frame who is the oppressed and who is to frame who is the oppressed and who is to frame who is the oppressed and who is the oppressor. So the serpent comes to the oppressor. So the serpent comes to the oppressor. So the serpent comes to Eve and says essentially, "Look, you're Eve and says essentially, "Look, you're Eve and says essentially, "Look, you're the oppressed here and God is your the oppressed here and God is your the oppressed here and God is your oppressor. He doesn't want you to be oppressor. He doesn't want you to be oppressor. He doesn't want you to be like him. He's actually a bit scared of like him. He's actually a bit scared of like him. He's actually a bit scared of you. I'm the ally. This is your moment you. I'm the ally. This is your moment you. I'm the ally. This is your moment to spring the trap uh and throw off the to spring the trap uh and throw off the to spring the trap uh and throw off the shackles of your oppression." shackles of your oppression." shackles of your oppression." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so there's this ever since the fall, >> And so there's this ever since the fall, >> And so there's this ever since the fall, there's this dynamic, who's being there's this dynamic, who's being there's this dynamic, who's being oppressed by whom, and how is liberation oppressed by whom, and how is liberation oppressed by whom, and how is liberation achieved? and different ways of framing achieved? and different ways of framing achieved? and different ways of framing that. But I I think that there is that. But I I think that there is that. But I I think that there is something something something different about the way in which that different about the way in which that different about the way in which that plays itself out in our society post plays itself out in our society post plays itself out in our society post nature as well. nature as well. nature as well. >> Yeah. You know, I hadn't thought of >> Yeah. You know, I hadn't thought of >> Yeah. You know, I hadn't thought of that. I mean, because it is in in some that. I mean, because it is in in some that. I mean, because it is in in some ways it's youngest because it's younger ways it's youngest because it's younger ways it's youngest because it's younger because of niche fuko in in our secular because of niche fuko in in our secular because of niche fuko in in our secular culture now. But you went back to culture now. But you went back to culture now. But you went back to Genesis, but I my mind went to like Amos Genesis, but I my mind went to like Amos Genesis, but I my mind went to like Amos and Micah and Isaiah 1, you know, and Micah and Isaiah 1, you know, and Micah and Isaiah 1, you know, correct oppression, defend the correct oppression, defend the correct oppression, defend the fatherless. So there's definitely fatherless. So there's definitely fatherless. So there's definitely conversation in the Bible all over the conversation in the Bible all over the conversation in the Bible all over the place about unmasking systems and caring place about unmasking systems and caring place about unmasking systems and caring about justice. It's it's it's all over about justice. It's it's it's all over about justice. It's it's it's all over there. The whole Exodus narrative is the there. The whole Exodus narrative is the there. The whole Exodus narrative is the original uh narrative of liberation. I original uh narrative of liberation. I original uh narrative of liberation. I think when I was doing my um

think when I was doing my um think when I was doing my um uh sermon series on that, I remember uh sermon series on that, I remember uh sermon series on that, I remember asking you for references and you had asking you for references and you had asking you for references and you had some great books uh that had that that some great books uh that had that that some great books uh that had that that you know critiqued the power narrative you know critiqued the power narrative you know critiqued the power narrative um but from the the Exodus view. So um but from the the Exodus view. So um but from the the Exodus view. So yeah, it's it's it's there. I I think yeah, it's it's it's there. I I think yeah, it's it's it's there. I I think that it it does feel slightly different that it it does feel slightly different that it it does feel slightly different when culture everyone is saying when culture everyone is saying when culture everyone is saying everything else out there is just a everything else out there is just a everything else out there is just a power move. There's no way to have power move. There's no way to have power move. There's no way to have forgiveness and repentance because forgiveness and repentance because forgiveness and repentance because that's just a power move. there's no way that's just a power move. there's no way that's just a power move. there's no way to actually talk through our differences to actually talk through our differences to actually talk through our differences and get to you could argue the American and get to you could argue the American and get to you could argue the American uh system was designed for compromise uh system was designed for compromise uh system was designed for compromise and you know people coming together but and you know people coming together but and you know people coming together but in this narrative you can't because any in this narrative you can't because any in this narrative you can't because any compromise is actually just them their compromise is actually just them their compromise is actually just them their power over your power. It's always the power over your power. It's always the power over your power. It's always the powerful versus the powerless. And the powerful versus the powerless. And the powerful versus the powerless. And the strong eat the weak. And you have strong eat the weak. And you have strong eat the weak. And you have everything is about, ironically, there's everything is about, ironically, there's everything is about, ironically, there's such moral language about this such moral language about this such moral language about this narrative, even though that's one of the narrative, even though that's one of the narrative, even though that's one of the downfalls of the power narrative. If you downfalls of the power narrative. If you downfalls of the power narrative. If you say everything is a power move, that's a say everything is a power move, that's a say everything is a power move, that's a power move to say everything's a power power move to say everything's a power power move to say everything's a power move. So why should we listen to the the move. So why should we listen to the the move. So why should we listen to the the power narrative if that's just another power narrative if that's just another power narrative if that's just another power move? I This is where it kind of power move? I This is where it kind of power move? I This is where it kind of eats itself and falls away, but it's eats itself and falls away, but it's eats itself and falls away, but it's it's still there. You're right. And I it's still there. You're right. And I it's still there. You're right. And I hadn't thought about how old it is hadn't thought about how old it is hadn't thought about how old it is really. That's a good point.

really. That's a good point. really. That's a good point. >> As you're saying, you know, lo and >> As you're saying, you know, lo and >> As you're saying, you know, lo and behold, there's a tension at the heart behold, there's a tension at the heart behold, there's a tension at the heart of this narrative as well, which is as of this narrative as well, which is as of this narrative as well, which is as as you beautifully just put it, not only as you beautifully just put it, not only as you beautifully just put it, not only the strong eat the weak, but the power the strong eat the weak, but the power the strong eat the weak, but the power narrative eats itself. Like if this is narrative eats itself. Like if this is narrative eats itself. Like if this is really true, you should be very really true, you should be very really true, you should be very skeptical of it because what is it skeptical of it because what is it skeptical of it because what is it trying to do to you? trying to do to you? trying to do to you? >> Yeah. That's just I actually brought >> Yeah. That's just I actually brought >> Yeah. That's just I actually brought that up in the book. I think I can't that up in the book. I think I can't that up in the book. I think I can't remember but in high school I was a big remember but in high school I was a big remember but in high school I was a big Rage Against the Machine uh fan and it Rage Against the Machine uh fan and it Rage Against the Machine uh fan and it was all about the you know the the was all about the you know the the was all about the you know the the powers that be that are trying to get powers that be that are trying to get powers that be that are trying to get you. And then I then they signed this you. And then I then they signed this you. And then I then they signed this huge contract with Sony and I was like huge contract with Sony and I was like huge contract with Sony and I was like wait a second you were talking about how wait a second you were talking about how wait a second you were talking about how bad they now I feel like how am I not bad they now I feel like how am I not bad they now I feel like how am I not being manipulated to rage against the being manipulated to rage against the being manipulated to rage against the machine if rage against the machine is machine if rage against the machine is machine if rage against the machine is part of the machine and I had this big part of the machine and I had this big part of the machine and I had this big crisis of like it was one of the it was crisis of like it was one of the it was crisis of like it was one of the it was one of the things I I remembered in my one of the things I I remembered in my one of the things I I remembered in my own journey of what's the point of life own journey of what's the point of life own journey of what's the point of life and why am I here and all those kind of and why am I here and all those kind of and why am I here and all those kind of things but yeah things but yeah things but yeah >> yes >> yes >> yes >> it's there >> it's there >> it's there >> rage against the rage against the >> rage against the rage against the >> rage against the rage against the machine at that point machine at that point machine at that point >> which And but I started doing that. But >> which And but I started doing that. But >> which And but I started doing that. But then I realized I was still being manip then I realized I was still being manip then I realized I was still being manip I was still being controlled.

I was still being controlled. I was still being controlled. So that's when I moved on to drugs and So that's when I moved on to drugs and So that's when I moved on to drugs and alcohol and that's when honestly that's alcohol and that's when honestly that's alcohol and that's when honestly that's >> not great either because that was >> not great either because that was >> not great either because that was escapism and then and then it was asking escapism and then and then it was asking escapism and then and then it was asking bigger questions that eventually came bigger questions that eventually came bigger questions that eventually came back to to faith. It's great. back to to faith. It's great. back to to faith. It's great. >> I think this is the time where we need >> I think this is the time where we need >> I think this is the time where we need to go to faith. So, we've set out some to go to faith. So, we've set out some to go to faith. So, we've set out some of these questions and at the heart of of these questions and at the heart of of these questions and at the heart of each of them is a a paradox or a tension each of them is a a paradox or a tension each of them is a a paradox or a tension that that we can't get out of. Like, you that that we can't get out of. Like, you that that we can't get out of. Like, you do you, but hold on. Am I really doing do you, but hold on. Am I really doing do you, but hold on. Am I really doing me? It's everything is power, but yeah, me? It's everything is power, but yeah, me? It's everything is power, but yeah, why are you telling me that? And so, why are you telling me that? And so, why are you telling me that? And so, there's there's this this wall that you there's there's this this wall that you there's there's this this wall that you hit up against in all of these hit up against in all of these hit up against in all of these narratives when you start digging narratives when you start digging narratives when you start digging beneath the surface, which is, is this beneath the surface, which is, is this beneath the surface, which is, is this story really what it seems? story really what it seems? story really what it seems? or what's really going on here. And I or what's really going on here. And I or what's really going on here. And I want to try and break that circle if we want to try and break that circle if we want to try and break that circle if we can can can with a biblical sort of intervention. with a biblical sort of intervention. with a biblical sort of intervention. And let's let's stick with power for a And let's let's stick with power for a And let's let's stick with power for a moment.

moment. moment. >> You've already mentioned the ideas of >> You've already mentioned the ideas of >> You've already mentioned the ideas of forgiveness and repentance. Uh and and forgiveness and repentance. Uh and and forgiveness and repentance. Uh and and in the book you also talk about in the book you also talk about in the book you also talk about redemption in relation to power. How do redemption in relation to power. How do redemption in relation to power. How do these ideas these ideas these ideas destabilize, destabilize, destabilize, disrupt, disrupt, disrupt, rewire the power narrative? That's great. As I I'm listening to That's great. As I I'm listening to sirens coming by, it's, you know, New sirens coming by, it's, you know, New sirens coming by, it's, you know, New York City uh in in in audio. But I think York City uh in in in audio. But I think York City uh in in in audio. But I think when it comes to power narrative, I when it comes to power narrative, I when it comes to power narrative, I think that the you have an older view of think that the you have an older view of think that the you have an older view of just saying, hey, there's no problem for just saying, hey, there's no problem for just saying, hey, there's no problem for authorities to have power. Let them have authorities to have power. Let them have authorities to have power. Let them have it. Then you have the newer view of it. Then you have the newer view of it. Then you have the newer view of saying all power is bad. You're not saying all power is bad. You're not saying all power is bad. You're not supposed to supposed to supposed to have it and we need to disempower the have it and we need to disempower the have it and we need to disempower the powerful. powerful. powerful. And I what I find biblically fascinating And I what I find biblically fascinating And I what I find biblically fascinating when you look at Jesus and you look at when you look at Jesus and you look at when you look at Jesus and you look at the Bible's use of power is it doesn't the Bible's use of power is it doesn't the Bible's use of power is it doesn't ignore it and say, "Hey, power is all ignore it and say, "Hey, power is all ignore it and say, "Hey, power is all there's nothing here. Just let the there's nothing here. Just let the there's nothing here. Just let the powerful have the power." And it doesn't powerful have the power." And it doesn't powerful have the power." And it doesn't say, "Hey, uh, all power is bad. Get rid say, "Hey, uh, all power is bad. Get rid say, "Hey, uh, all power is bad. Get rid of all power." What you find with Jesus of all power." What you find with Jesus of all power." What you find with Jesus in John chapter 13, there's this great in John chapter 13, there's this great in John chapter 13, there's this great phrase in the NIV that says as he's phrase in the NIV that says as he's phrase in the NIV that says as he's contemplating how all power and reality contemplating how all power and reality contemplating how all power and reality has been given to him that the the Greek has been given to him that the the Greek has been given to him that the the Greek word is the the word gar and it says so word is the the word gar and it says so word is the the word gar and it says so he gets up from the table takes off his he gets up from the table takes off his he gets up from the table takes off his cloak and begins to wash the disciples

cloak and begins to wash the disciples cloak and begins to wash the disciples feet and I just love that imagery of the feet and I just love that imagery of the feet and I just love that imagery of the moment when he most is contemplating and moment when he most is contemplating and moment when he most is contemplating and knows that everything is his he gets up knows that everything is his he gets up knows that everything is his he gets up and stewards it And I I think that's the and stewards it And I I think that's the and stewards it And I I think that's the best answer I've seen of power. It's not best answer I've seen of power. It's not best answer I've seen of power. It's not uh everybody has some power, even the uh everybody has some power, even the uh everybody has some power, even the weakest of us. What do we do with it? weakest of us. What do we do with it? weakest of us. What do we do with it? Are we stewarding it for others? And the Are we stewarding it for others? And the Are we stewarding it for others? And the Christian faith says when the core of Christian faith says when the core of Christian faith says when the core of reality is a God who gives who takes his reality is a God who gives who takes his reality is a God who gives who takes his power and stewards it for you that lets power and stewards it for you that lets power and stewards it for you that lets you now take your power and steward it you now take your power and steward it you now take your power and steward it for others. That's the answer to power. for others. That's the answer to power. for others. That's the answer to power. It it it it doesn't fix all things all It it it it doesn't fix all things all It it it it doesn't fix all things all at once, but it if a world increasingly at once, but it if a world increasingly at once, but it if a world increasingly becomes stewards of power, it the becomes stewards of power, it the becomes stewards of power, it the systems, the individual, the the systems, the individual, the the systems, the individual, the the collective, all that starts getting collective, all that starts getting collective, all that starts getting changed and different. So I I I think changed and different. So I I I think changed and different. So I I I think there's a beautiful uh we try to do it there's a beautiful uh we try to do it there's a beautiful uh we try to do it through each one of the narratives to through each one of the narratives to through each one of the narratives to show how there's some truth in the power show how there's some truth in the power show how there's some truth in the power narrative. The powerful do oppress the narrative. The powerful do oppress the narrative. The powerful do oppress the powerless, but the Christian answer powerless, but the Christian answer powerless, but the Christian answer surprisingly completes it in a different surprisingly completes it in a different surprisingly completes it in a different way than how we've ever even conceived way than how we've ever even conceived way than how we've ever even conceived of it.

of it. of it. >> Yes. The supremely powerful one becomes >> Yes. The supremely powerful one becomes >> Yes. The supremely powerful one becomes powerless powerless powerless so that he can use his power to raise up so that he can use his power to raise up so that he can use his power to raise up the powerless. the powerless. the powerless. >> Yeah. Amen. It >> Yeah. Amen. It >> Yeah. Amen. It >> it doesn't it doesn't fit the power >> it doesn't it doesn't fit the power >> it doesn't it doesn't fit the power story like you you don't do that. It it story like you you don't do that. It it story like you you don't do that. It it breaks Is is this the right language to breaks Is is this the right language to breaks Is is this the right language to use, Michael? It breaks the narrative, use, Michael? It breaks the narrative, use, Michael? It breaks the narrative, do you think? do you think? do you think? >> Yeah. Breaks the bonds of it. I mean, >> Yeah. Breaks the bonds of it. I mean, >> Yeah. Breaks the bonds of it. I mean, the power narrative can unmask it can the power narrative can unmask it can the power narrative can unmask it can diagnose the disease, but it has no diagnose the disease, but it has no diagnose the disease, but it has no cure. And so it it I like I like the cure. And so it it I like I like the cure. And so it it I like I like the word complete because I I think so often word complete because I I think so often word complete because I I think so often in in the a lot of folks think in in the a lot of folks think in in the a lot of folks think Christians are always about everything Christians are always about everything Christians are always about everything about the world is wrong. I think a lot about the world is wrong. I think a lot about the world is wrong. I think a lot of these stories have seeds and aspects of these stories have seeds and aspects of these stories have seeds and aspects that are correct, but I think it Yeah. I that are correct, but I think it Yeah. I that are correct, but I think it Yeah. I think it breaks the power of the old think it breaks the power of the old think it breaks the power of the old narrative and completes it into the new. narrative and completes it into the new. narrative and completes it into the new. So how does the gospel story So how does the gospel story So how does the gospel story complete the narrative according to complete the narrative according to complete the narrative according to which the powerful oppress the powerless which the powerful oppress the powerless which the powerful oppress the powerless and their oppressors and oppressed cuz and their oppressors and oppressed cuz and their oppressors and oppressed cuz some people hearing that would think some people hearing that would think some people hearing that would think surely that surely that surely that completing that would just mean that the completing that would just mean that the completing that would just mean that the the all powerful oppresses the weak like the all powerful oppresses the weak like the all powerful oppresses the weak like we don't want that story completed do we we don't want that story completed do we we don't want that story completed do we so just unpack this term completion what so just unpack this term completion what so just unpack this term completion what how does the gospel complete these how does the gospel complete these how does the gospel complete these If the heart of hearts of the of uh the If the heart of hearts of the of uh the If the heart of hearts of the of uh the power narrative is for justice, for power narrative is for justice, for power narrative is for justice, for actually the wrongs writed, for

actually the wrongs writed, for actually the wrongs writed, for power to be used in the right way, it power to be used in the right way, it power to be used in the right way, it completes it because the upside down completes it because the upside down completes it because the upside down kingdom of of Jesus who is the one who kingdom of of Jesus who is the one who kingdom of of Jesus who is the one who has all power but then gives it up to has all power but then gives it up to has all power but then gives it up to love and serve others. And then if his love and serve others. And then if his love and serve others. And then if his followers are doing the same, if the followers are doing the same, if the followers are doing the same, if the core of Christianity is a man who dies core of Christianity is a man who dies core of Christianity is a man who dies for his enemies and you put put them at for his enemies and you put put them at for his enemies and you put put them at the core of your life, you start dying the core of your life, you start dying the core of your life, you start dying for your enemies. I think that's for your enemies. I think that's for your enemies. I think that's the good that comes out of that and the the good that comes out of that and the the good that comes out of that and the transformation and the justice that will transformation and the justice that will transformation and the justice that will come out of that would be come out of that would be come out of that would be powerful powerful powerful >> to kind of faith. Yes. >> to kind of faith. Yes. >> to kind of faith. Yes. So it's not just completing it in the So it's not just completing it in the So it's not just completing it in the sense of a bigger version of the story sense of a bigger version of the story sense of a bigger version of the story as it's already told in our society. It as it's already told in our society. It as it's already told in our society. It it's sort of a completely it's sort of a completely it's sort of a completely >> turned inside out story of power like a >> turned inside out story of power like a >> turned inside out story of power like a story of power like you've never heard story of power like you've never heard story of power like you've never heard it told before sort of thing. it told before sort of thing. it told before sort of thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, I read this book once uh about the >> Well, I read this book once uh about the >> Well, I read this book once uh about the diagonalization of uh of power and this diagonalization of uh of power and this diagonalization of uh of power and this friend of mine named Dr. Chris Watkins friend of mine named Dr. Chris Watkins friend of mine named Dr. Chris Watkins uh talks about this. I mean, you did a uh talks about this. I mean, you did a uh talks about this. I mean, you did a great job in that book, uh, Biblical great job in that book, uh, Biblical great job in that book, uh, Biblical Critical Theory, where you showed how Critical Theory, where you showed how Critical Theory, where you showed how it it it it's a it's it doesn't fit into it it it it's a it's it doesn't fit into it it it it's a it's it doesn't fit into any world. It it kind of comes and takes any world. It it kind of comes and takes any world. It it kind of comes and takes the best elements of all the one all the the best elements of all the one all the the best elements of all the one all the sides and combines it in a new and sides and combines it in a new and sides and combines it in a new and radical way.

radical way. radical way. And I think I think you did that from And I think I think you did that from And I think I think you did that from from a postulate point of view. And I from a postulate point of view. And I from a postulate point of view. And I and I think this book is trying to do it and I think this book is trying to do it and I think this book is trying to do it from a narrative uh story point of view. from a narrative uh story point of view. from a narrative uh story point of view. And the narrative perspective is so And the narrative perspective is so And the narrative perspective is so incredibly powerful, isn't it? Um, incredibly powerful, isn't it? Um, incredibly powerful, isn't it? Um, >> because our imaginations it's because >> because our imaginations it's because >> because our imaginations it's because we're story we're story based people. we're story we're story based people. we're story we're story based people. >> There were three words in the book that >> There were three words in the book that >> There were three words in the book that stood out to me more than any other stood out to me more than any other stood out to me more than any other three. And I I'm not sure that you'd be three. And I I'm not sure that you'd be three. And I I'm not sure that you'd be able to guess them, but they they just able to guess them, but they they just able to guess them, but they they just >> I'm so interested your thoughts on this. >> I'm so interested your thoughts on this. >> I'm so interested your thoughts on this. >> They leapt off the page at me. At one >> They leapt off the page at me. At one >> They leapt off the page at me. At one point you're talking about the point you're talking about the point you're talking about the uniqueness of Christianity among these uniqueness of Christianity among these uniqueness of Christianity among these stories and it's sort of a throwaway stories and it's sort of a throwaway stories and it's sort of a throwaway phrase in the middle of a sentence, but phrase in the middle of a sentence, but phrase in the middle of a sentence, but you say for Christianity something like you say for Christianity something like you say for Christianity something like this, beauty is real. this, beauty is real. this, beauty is real. And I I had to stop at that point and I And I I had to stop at that point and I And I I had to stop at that point and I found that such an incredibly found that such an incredibly found that such an incredibly profound insight and also incredibly profound insight and also incredibly profound insight and also incredibly exciting as well. And so I just love to exciting as well. And so I just love to exciting as well. And so I just love to talk about that a little bit with you.

talk about that a little bit with you. talk about that a little bit with you. When when you write the difference of When when you write the difference of When when you write the difference of Christianity is that for the Christian Christianity is that for the Christian Christianity is that for the Christian story, beauty is real. story, beauty is real. story, beauty is real. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What what are you thinking there? What >> What what are you thinking there? What >> What what are you thinking there? What what are you getting at? what are you getting at? what are you getting at? >> Well, I'm I'm was going through my head >> Well, I'm I'm was going through my head >> Well, I'm I'm was going through my head was all the naturalists that say it's was all the naturalists that say it's was all the naturalists that say it's just beauty is just a way to pass your just beauty is just a way to pass your just beauty is just a way to pass your genes on to the next generation. And I'm genes on to the next generation. And I'm genes on to the next generation. And I'm thinking of all the um thinking of all the um thinking of all the um metaphysical reasons for why beauty is metaphysical reasons for why beauty is metaphysical reasons for why beauty is not actually real. It's just uh it's a not actually real. It's just uh it's a not actually real. It's just uh it's a skill learned. It's it's it's a cultural skill learned. It's it's it's a cultural skill learned. It's it's it's a cultural phenomenon. It's it's a sociological phenomenon. It's it's a sociological phenomenon. It's it's a sociological thing. And thing. And thing. And I can't quite remember the context of I can't quite remember the context of I can't quite remember the context of writing that, but I do know that I have writing that, but I do know that I have writing that, but I do know that I have in my head my dad always talking. I'm in my head my dad always talking. I'm in my head my dad always talking. I'm gonna tear up thinking about this. Um, gonna tear up thinking about this. Um, gonna tear up thinking about this. Um, my [clears throat] dad always had this my [clears throat] dad always had this my [clears throat] dad always had this phrase about my mom, praise for the phrase about my mom, praise for the phrase about my mom, praise for the praiseworthy, and that there's something praiseworthy, and that there's something praiseworthy, and that there's something about when you see something beautiful, about when you see something beautiful, about when you see something beautiful, you can't help but not praise and and you can't help but not praise and and you can't help but not praise and and clap. That's why we stand and clap. That's why we stand and clap. That's why we stand and appreciate. When you really see beauty, appreciate. When you really see beauty, appreciate. When you really see beauty, you real beauty elicits a response. It you real beauty elicits a response. It you real beauty elicits a response. It moves us.

moves us. moves us. And if the gospel account is true and And if the gospel account is true and And if the gospel account is true and Jesus was raised from the dead and that Jesus was raised from the dead and that Jesus was raised from the dead and that means you do you one day will too which means you do you one day will too which means you do you one day will too which means my father will be one day too. The only thing left is praise. It's real The only thing left is praise. It's real because praise and beauty are are because praise and beauty are are because praise and beauty are are they're not the same thing, but they they're not the same thing, but they they're not the same thing, but they are d they're in dialogue with each are d they're in dialogue with each are d they're in dialogue with each other and um [clears throat] so is other and um [clears throat] so is other and um [clears throat] so is wonder and awe and wonder and awe and wonder and awe and being able to say it's real. It reminds being able to say it's real. It reminds being able to say it's real. It reminds me of the the conversation between me of the the conversation between me of the the conversation between Tolken and CS Lewis. It's it's the story Tolken and CS Lewis. It's it's the story Tolken and CS Lewis. It's it's the story that actually that actually that actually completes all the other stories and it's completes all the other stories and it's completes all the other stories and it's it's the true story behind it. And if it's the true story behind it. And if it's the true story behind it. And if that's real, then changes how we live. that's real, then changes how we live. that's real, then changes how we live. It changes how we act. It changes our It changes how we act. It changes our It changes how we act. It changes our hopes. Changes everything. hopes. Changes everything. hopes. Changes everything. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. And and it appears to me that And and it appears to me that And and it appears to me that the Christian story, the true Christian story is a story that the true Christian story is a story that beckons you into a reality that is beckons you into a reality that is beckons you into a reality that is >> unparalleled as as far as I my own >> unparalleled as as far as I my own >> unparalleled as as far as I my own experience goes that experience goes that experience goes that all these other stories are very good at all these other stories are very good at all these other stories are very good at explaining away the things around explaining away the things around explaining away the things around That's good.

That's good. That's good. >> Um, you as you were saying before, >> Um, you as you were saying before, >> Um, you as you were saying before, forgiveness is really a a power game or forgiveness is really a a power game or forgiveness is really a a power game or whatever. This is really that whatever. This is really that whatever. This is really that >> um is Genesis 3 again, isn't it? Did God >> um is Genesis 3 again, isn't it? Did God >> um is Genesis 3 again, isn't it? Did God really say, really say, really say, >> "Yes, >> "Yes, >> "Yes, >> is is is there a reality here? I'm not >> is is is there a reality here? I'm not >> is is is there a reality here? I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that." sure it's quite as simple as that." sure it's quite as simple as that." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But but the Christian story has at its >> But but the Christian story has at its >> But but the Christian story has at its heart, and I I love that beautiful heart, and I I love that beautiful heart, and I I love that beautiful phrase, um, praise for the praise phrase, um, praise for the praise phrase, um, praise for the praise worthy. It it it has a worthiness which worthy. It it it has a worthiness which worthy. It it it has a worthiness which is probably another way of talking about is probably another way of talking about is probably another way of talking about a reality like a reality like a reality like >> beauty. >> beauty. >> beauty. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Is real. There is a worthiness out >> Yeah. Is real. There is a worthiness out >> Yeah. Is real. There is a worthiness out there in terms of beauty. And this I'm there in terms of beauty. And this I'm there in terms of beauty. And this I'm expressing this clumsily, but I'm trying expressing this clumsily, but I'm trying expressing this clumsily, but I'm trying to get at something that I think is to get at something that I think is to get at something that I think is really fundamental and really important really fundamental and really important really fundamental and really important in today's society with our meaning in today's society with our meaning in today's society with our meaning crisis and loneliness and so forth. Like crisis and loneliness and so forth. Like crisis and loneliness and so forth. Like beauty is real. beauty is real. beauty is real. Truth is real. Yeah. You are real. Truth is real. Yeah. You are real. Truth is real. Yeah. You are real. >> Destiny is real. Progress is real and so >> Destiny is real. Progress is real and so >> Destiny is real. Progress is real and so forth. And to to inhabit that reality is forth. And to to inhabit that reality is forth. And to to inhabit that reality is to be invited to be invited to be invited into an experience of into an experience of into an experience of praise and awe and worship and praise and awe and worship and praise and awe and worship and fundamentally of meaningfulness.

fundamentally of meaningfulness. fundamentally of meaningfulness. >> Like this is a world dripping with >> Like this is a world dripping with >> Like this is a world dripping with meaning. If beauty is really real and if meaning. If beauty is really real and if meaning. If beauty is really real and if truth is really real and if you are truth is really real and if you are truth is really real and if you are really real, you know, and if God is really real, you know, and if God is really real, you know, and if God is really real, my goodness, you've got as really real, my goodness, you've got as really real, my goodness, you've got as much meaning as you can cope with and much meaning as you can cope with and much meaning as you can cope with and then, you know, gallons more besides. then, you know, gallons more besides. then, you know, gallons more besides. And it there's a And it there's a And it there's a um there's a worthiness therefore about um there's a worthiness therefore about um there's a worthiness therefore about this Christian story compared to these this Christian story compared to these this Christian story compared to these other narratives that we might live our other narratives that we might live our other narratives that we might live our lives by because it brings us confronts lives by because it brings us confronts lives by because it brings us confronts us, you know, face to face with the real us, you know, face to face with the real us, you know, face to face with the real and it doesn't try to explain those and it doesn't try to explain those and it doesn't try to explain those things away that there is beauty things away that there is beauty things away that there is beauty actually. actually. actually. >> It's not just chemicals. It's not just >> It's not just chemicals. It's not just >> It's not just chemicals. It's not just you being manipulated. It's not just you being manipulated. It's not just you being manipulated. It's not just ideology. And there's something I don't ideology. And there's something I don't ideology. And there's something I don't know how you feel about that but when I know how you feel about that but when I know how you feel about that but when I read those words in the book I thought read those words in the book I thought read those words in the book I thought this is intoxicating. I want to even if this is intoxicating. I want to even if this is intoxicating. I want to even if this story were not true and I believe this story were not true and I believe this story were not true and I believe that it is this is the story that I'd that it is this is the story that I'd that it is this is the story that I'd want the story in which beauty is real want the story in which beauty is real want the story in which beauty is real give me that give me that give me that >> more >> more >> more >> reminds me of Sam saying you know is >> reminds me of Sam saying you know is >> reminds me of Sam saying you know is everything sad going to become untrue everything sad going to become untrue everything sad going to become untrue and you know just hearing you talk Chris and you know just hearing you talk Chris and you know just hearing you talk Chris I think this gets back to what I don't I think this gets back to what I don't I think this gets back to what I don't know I assume that our listeners are the know I assume that our listeners are the know I assume that our listeners are the whole range on the faith spectrum from whole range on the faith spectrum from whole range on the faith spectrum from believers to not to everything in believers to not to everything in believers to not to everything in between and for those who are between and for those who are between and for those who are questioning like okay what what do I questioning like okay what what do I questioning like okay what what do I believe and why do I believe it I think believe and why do I believe it I think believe and why do I believe it I think you I think you owe it to yourself to you I think you owe it to yourself to you I think you owe it to yourself to put yourself in a story that explains put yourself in a story that explains put yourself in a story that explains your experiences to the better than any

your experiences to the better than any your experiences to the better than any other story out there and since I think other story out there and since I think other story out there and since I think we actually do live as if beauty is real we actually do live as if beauty is real we actually do live as if beauty is real this is actually a story that that fits this is actually a story that that fits this is actually a story that that fits that the other stories out there that the other stories out there that the other stories out there naturalism secularism naturalism secularism naturalism secularism Buddhism so so many other isms don't Buddhism so so many other isms don't Buddhism so so many other isms don't treat treat treat beauty is real and I I think you have to beauty is real and I I think you have to beauty is real and I I think you have to really ask yourself what what do I hold really ask yourself what what do I hold really ask yourself what what do I hold and why do I hold it and um I remember and why do I hold it and um I remember and why do I hold it and um I remember doing a sermon recently a couple weeks doing a sermon recently a couple weeks doing a sermon recently a couple weeks ago where it says it that I was trying ago where it says it that I was trying ago where it says it that I was trying to address like just it sounds too good to address like just it sounds too good to address like just it sounds too good to be true. It just it doesn't feel real to be true. It just it doesn't feel real to be true. It just it doesn't feel real because it just it can't be true because because it just it can't be true because because it just it can't be true because it's too good to be true. And I think it's too good to be true. And I think it's too good to be true. And I think this is where we have to say Christian this is where we have to say Christian this is where we have to say Christian hope is not pure optimism. It's it's hope is not pure optimism. It's it's hope is not pure optimism. It's it's grounded in a historical event that grounded in a historical event that grounded in a historical event that either did or didn't happen. But if it either did or didn't happen. But if it either did or didn't happen. But if it did, did, did, this is why Paul says we rejoice in hope this is why Paul says we rejoice in hope this is why Paul says we rejoice in hope because it's it's not a hope in the because it's it's not a hope in the because it's it's not a hope in the Bible is not a possibility. It's an Bible is not a possibility. It's an Bible is not a possibility. It's an assurity assurity assurity that is still coming to fruition. And I that is still coming to fruition. And I that is still coming to fruition. And I think that that's the what the Christian think that that's the what the Christian think that that's the what the Christian gets to sit in. Um, so I I spent a lot gets to sit in. Um, so I I spent a lot gets to sit in. Um, so I I spent a lot of time going, it's if it was just pure of time going, it's if it was just pure of time going, it's if it was just pure like fantisful like fantisful like fantisful uh optimism, sure, then you can be uh optimism, sure, then you can be uh optimism, sure, then you can be skeptical, but it's not. It's it's a skeptical, but it's not. It's it's a skeptical, but it's not. It's it's a historical reality that people have historical reality that people have historical reality that people have changed their lives over and you have to changed their lives over and you have to changed their lives over and you have to you have to do the work to kind of hold you have to do the work to kind of hold you have to do the work to kind of hold it as true and make it your story or it as true and make it your story or it as true and make it your story or not.

not. not. >> Absolutely. You history is real. Again, >> Absolutely. You history is real. Again, >> Absolutely. You history is real. Again, we live in a real reality. we live in a real reality. we live in a real reality. >> But it sounds Chris, you saying that >> But it sounds Chris, you saying that >> But it sounds Chris, you saying that like, well, are you worried that there's like, well, are you worried that there's like, well, are you worried that there's any listeners going, "Well, of course any listeners going, "Well, of course any listeners going, "Well, of course history's real. I know history's what do history's real. I know history's what do history's real. I know history's what do you mean by what do you mean by that?" you mean by what do you mean by that?" you mean by what do you mean by that?" >> I I think what I mean is that there's a >> I I think what I mean is that there's a >> I I think what I mean is that there's a tendency tendency tendency to to to well, we live in quite a cynical society well, we live in quite a cynical society well, we live in quite a cynical society and I I include myself in that. And and I I include myself in that. And and I I include myself in that. And we're always trying to search for what's we're always trying to search for what's we're always trying to search for what's really going on under the way that really going on under the way that really going on under the way that things appear. And I I think we carry things appear. And I I think we carry things appear. And I I think we carry that over into the way we view the that over into the way we view the that over into the way we view the world. So if something is beautiful, world. So if something is beautiful, world. So if something is beautiful, it it can't really be beautiful. I I it it can't really be beautiful. I I it it can't really be beautiful. I I must be conditioned in in some sort of must be conditioned in in some sort of must be conditioned in in some sort of way to um way to um way to um that that there must be a proper that that there must be a proper that that there must be a proper explanation, which is a way of explanation, which is a way of explanation, which is a way of explaining away beauty. I I I can't just explaining away beauty. I I I can't just explaining away beauty. I I I can't just sit with beauty or if I do that there's sit with beauty or if I do that there's sit with beauty or if I do that there's something sort of vaguely naive about something sort of vaguely naive about something sort of vaguely naive about me. Um and and it's the Genesis 3 idea me. Um and and it's the Genesis 3 idea me. Um and and it's the Genesis 3 idea again, isn't it? Don't again, isn't it? Don't again, isn't it? Don't don't believe what you have been told. M don't believe what you have been told. M don't believe what you have been told. M >> and I think look it's probably I'm >> and I think look it's probably I'm >> and I think look it's probably I'm I'm saying more about myself as a an I'm saying more about myself as a an I'm saying more about myself as a an academic in an arts faculty perhaps than

academic in an arts faculty perhaps than academic in an arts faculty perhaps than I am about other people but you're sort I am about other people but you're sort I am about other people but you're sort of you're trained to be skeptical of of you're trained to be skeptical of of you're trained to be skeptical of everything and you often for good reason everything and you often for good reason everything and you often for good reason but but but a a story that is true a a story that is true a a story that is true that that that says that beauty is true, but then backs says that beauty is true, but then backs says that beauty is true, but then backs it up with a metaphysics. In other it up with a metaphysics. In other it up with a metaphysics. In other words, an understanding of reality that words, an understanding of reality that words, an understanding of reality that that can produce its receipts that can produce its receipts that can produce its receipts >> that that can show you why beauty is >> that that can show you why beauty is >> that that can show you why beauty is true, that it's not just a nice idea and true, that it's not just a nice idea and true, that it's not just a nice idea and it's not just a naive idea, but given it's not just a naive idea, but given it's not just a naive idea, but given the way that the universe actually is, the way that the universe actually is, the way that the universe actually is, you must admit that beauty is true. I you must admit that beauty is true. I you must admit that beauty is true. I just find just find just find endlessly intoxicating. endlessly intoxicating. endlessly intoxicating. It's the anti It's like like if if It's the anti It's like like if if It's the anti It's like like if if cynicism is the acid that dissolves cynicism is the acid that dissolves cynicism is the acid that dissolves everything, this is the alkali that everything, this is the alkali that everything, this is the alkali that neutralizes neutralizes neutralizes >> that acid. >> that acid. >> that acid. >> Um, and as you say, I I want beauty to >> Um, and as you say, I I want beauty to >> Um, and as you say, I I want beauty to be true because I I I don't want to be be true because I I I don't want to be be true because I I I don't want to be in a universe where the meaning that we in a universe where the meaning that we in a universe where the meaning that we think is out there is just a meaning think is out there is just a meaning think is out there is just a meaning that we've chosen to sort of force on that we've chosen to sort of force on that we've chosen to sort of force on the universe. that that seems to me a the universe. that that seems to me a the universe. that that seems to me a very shriveled a very contingent a very very shriveled a very contingent a very very shriveled a very contingent a very dangerous universe given the sorts of dangerous universe given the sorts of dangerous universe given the sorts of meanings that we want to force on it. I meanings that we want to force on it. I meanings that we want to force on it. I I want to be I don't know if this is I want to be I don't know if this is I want to be I don't know if this is just me in a universe where beauty is just me in a universe where beauty is just me in a universe where beauty is true and I can look at something that's true and I can look at something that's true and I can look at something that's beautiful and and you know in that beautiful and and you know in that beautiful and and you know in that beautiful phrase that that your dad used

beautiful phrase that that your dad used beautiful phrase that that your dad used I can praise the praiseworthy. I want I can praise the praiseworthy. I want I can praise the praiseworthy. I want something to be praiseworthy out there something to be praiseworthy out there something to be praiseworthy out there please. And if not, I don't please. And if not, I don't please. And if not, I don't know that know that know that there's a lot that my life can mean. there's a lot that my life can mean. there's a lot that my life can mean. Goodness, I'm getting metaphysical. But Goodness, I'm getting metaphysical. But Goodness, I'm getting metaphysical. But I I'm trying to I'm trying to think out I I'm trying to I'm trying to think out I I'm trying to I'm trying to think out loud as to why I want beauty to be true. loud as to why I want beauty to be true. loud as to why I want beauty to be true. And I think it's I want something to be And I think it's I want something to be And I think it's I want something to be praiseworthy. Otherwise, what's the praiseworthy. Otherwise, what's the praiseworthy. Otherwise, what's the point? What do you think? point? What do you think? point? What do you think? >> Well, I love you. I loved ma making you >> Well, I love you. I loved ma making you >> Well, I love you. I loved ma making you as an academic. I loved hearing that as an academic. I loved hearing that as an academic. I loved hearing that from you because you're you're getting from you because you're you're getting from you because you're you're getting at like not just I want it to be true. at like not just I want it to be true. at like not just I want it to be true. Your experiences, the way we live our Your experiences, the way we live our Your experiences, the way we live our lives is as if it is. And why is that? lives is as if it is. And why is that? lives is as if it is. And why is that? It's because of the story that we've It's because of the story that we've It's because of the story that we've been telling ourselves. But it's been telling ourselves. But it's been telling ourselves. But it's incomplete if you don't have the root or incomplete if you don't have the root or incomplete if you don't have the root or foundation that you can put it in. And foundation that you can put it in. And foundation that you can put it in. And the Christian story is compelling the Christian story is compelling the Christian story is compelling because it does with it with the because it does with it with the because it does with it with the historicity of it, the the event nature historicity of it, the the event nature historicity of it, the the event nature of it. And um sure, every individual has of it. And um sure, every individual has of it. And um sure, every individual has to still say, "But will I apply it to to still say, "But will I apply it to to still say, "But will I apply it to myself or not?" And I think there's more myself or not?" And I think there's more myself or not?" And I think there's more there, but um yeah, it gets back to like there, but um yeah, it gets back to like there, but um yeah, it gets back to like something isn't true just because you something isn't true just because you something isn't true just because you say it is. You can't just say say it is. You can't just say say it is. You can't just say beauty is true. Beauty is real. Okay, beauty is true. Beauty is real. Okay, beauty is true. Beauty is real. Okay, there it then it is. Um my kids play there it then it is. Um my kids play there it then it is. Um my kids play make believe all the time. It doesn't make believe all the time. It doesn't make believe all the time. It doesn't make it real. So when you make that make it real. So when you make that make it real. So when you make that statement, what are you rooted it in?

statement, what are you rooted it in? statement, what are you rooted it in? The Christian worldview has a very The Christian worldview has a very The Christian worldview has a very compelling story and I it's enough what compelling story and I it's enough what compelling story and I it's enough what I did in the book to move me through the I did in the book to move me through the I did in the book to move me through the grief and the death and the and the the grief and the death and the and the the grief and the death and the and the the heartache that I that I had to go heartache that I that I had to go heartache that I that I had to go through. through. through. >> Absolutely. And >> Absolutely. And >> Absolutely. And >> I think everybody >> I think everybody >> I think everybody >> I think that's >> I think that's >> I think that's >> Yes. Yes. Sooner or later. >> Yes. Yes. Sooner or later. >> Yes. Yes. Sooner or later. Um and I think that's that's true, isn't Um and I think that's that's true, isn't Um and I think that's that's true, isn't it? It's it's no good convincing it? It's it's no good convincing it? It's it's no good convincing yourself that beauty is true if deep yourself that beauty is true if deep yourself that beauty is true if deep down you know it isn't and you are down you know it isn't and you are down you know it isn't and you are vulnerable to the first argument that's vulnerable to the first argument that's vulnerable to the first argument that's going to come along and just so say the going to come along and just so say the going to come along and just so say the emperor's got no clothes. But but that's emperor's got no clothes. But but that's emperor's got no clothes. But but that's why the Christian story is so brilliant, why the Christian story is so brilliant, why the Christian story is so brilliant, isn't it? That over 2,000 years the the isn't it? That over 2,000 years the the isn't it? That over 2,000 years the the deepest philosophical reflections deepest philosophical reflections deepest philosophical reflections have been thrown at this story and and have been thrown at this story and and have been thrown at this story and and it's produced its receipts. No, beauty it's produced its receipts. No, beauty it's produced its receipts. No, beauty is actually true and I can go toe-to-toe is actually true and I can go toe-to-toe is actually true and I can go toe-to-toe with whatever argument you want to throw with whatever argument you want to throw with whatever argument you want to throw at me because this is a a view of the at me because this is a a view of the at me because this is a a view of the world that makes sense and can um world that makes sense and can um world that makes sense and can um explain itself coherently and that also explain itself coherently and that also explain itself coherently and that also comes to the conclusion that beauty is comes to the conclusion that beauty is comes to the conclusion that beauty is true and that's that's the true and that's that's the true and that's that's the power [laughter] power [laughter] power [laughter] >> and that's actually why I loved what we >> and that's actually why I loved what we >> and that's actually why I loved what we tried to say is that this doesn't tried to say is that this doesn't tried to say is that this doesn't eradicate the stories of our culture.

eradicate the stories of our culture. eradicate the stories of our culture. This actually fulfills them and This actually fulfills them and This actually fulfills them and completes them and points you to completes them and points you to completes them and points you to something better than it's actually what something better than it's actually what something better than it's actually what you always had wanted that each one was you always had wanted that each one was you always had wanted that each one was saying. You wanted an identity. Here's saying. You wanted an identity. Here's saying. You wanted an identity. Here's an identity. You wanted real freedom. an identity. You wanted real freedom. an identity. You wanted real freedom. It's freedom bound to him. You wanted It's freedom bound to him. You wanted It's freedom bound to him. You wanted real morality and power and and that real morality and power and and that real morality and power and and that doesn't oppress and it doesn't doesn't doesn't oppress and it doesn't doesn't doesn't oppress and it doesn't doesn't hurt but actually changes. And hurt but actually changes. And hurt but actually changes. And what's beautiful about the Christian what's beautiful about the Christian what's beautiful about the Christian story is it it doesn't say what we story is it it doesn't say what we story is it it doesn't say what we what's been moving our imaginations for what's been moving our imaginations for what's been moving our imaginations for decades depending how long you've lived decades depending how long you've lived decades depending how long you've lived in this world. It doesn't say none of it in this world. It doesn't say none of it in this world. It doesn't say none of it is real. It says it's actually more real is real. It says it's actually more real is real. It says it's actually more real found here and and look how it's found here and and look how it's found here and and look how it's actually completed. And these things actually completed. And these things actually completed. And these things that were intention that you didn't know that were intention that you didn't know that were intention that you didn't know how to hold all together finally does how to hold all together finally does how to hold all together finally does like that like a missing jigsaw piece like that like a missing jigsaw piece like that like a missing jigsaw piece that you've been trying to drive a car that you've been trying to drive a car that you've been trying to drive a car without the steering wheel. It's finally without the steering wheel. It's finally without the steering wheel. It's finally being given back to you. I think that's being given back to you. I think that's being given back to you. I think that's the idea behind it. the idea behind it. the idea behind it. >> It It's that brilliant image of CS >> It It's that brilliant image of CS >> It It's that brilliant image of CS Lewis's, isn't it? you you've been Lewis's, isn't it? you you've been Lewis's, isn't it? you you've been making mud pies in the slum and there's making mud pies in the slum and there's making mud pies in the slum and there's a certain satisfaction in that and you a certain satisfaction in that and you a certain satisfaction in that and you might have found some some some pleasure might have found some some some pleasure might have found some some some pleasure and some fulfillment in that. But the and some fulfillment in that. But the and some fulfillment in that. But the the real the real the real experience is the holiday at the beach.

experience is the holiday at the beach. experience is the holiday at the beach. And if you can stop making mud pies for And if you can stop making mud pies for And if you can stop making mud pies for long enough, let me take you to the long enough, let me take you to the long enough, let me take you to the beach. And and it's one Corinthians 1 as beach. And and it's one Corinthians 1 as beach. And and it's one Corinthians 1 as well, isn't it? like the Greek wisdom well, isn't it? like the Greek wisdom well, isn't it? like the Greek wisdom and the Jewish demand for miraculous and the Jewish demand for miraculous and the Jewish demand for miraculous signs, they're not nothing. Like the the signs, they're not nothing. Like the the signs, they're not nothing. Like the the Greeks are finding a certain amount of Greeks are finding a certain amount of Greeks are finding a certain amount of insight in their wisdom, but it's not, insight in their wisdom, but it's not, insight in their wisdom, but it's not, you know, to use the language of this you know, to use the language of this you know, to use the language of this convers. It's not real wisdom with with convers. It's not real wisdom with with convers. It's not real wisdom with with all the deep resonance of that word all the deep resonance of that word all the deep resonance of that word real. And Paul is saying God's real. And Paul is saying God's real. And Paul is saying God's foolishness is the real wisdom. And I foolishness is the real wisdom. And I foolishness is the real wisdom. And I know that sounds so weird to you, but if know that sounds so weird to you, but if know that sounds so weird to you, but if you want the reality of the thing that you want the reality of the thing that you want the reality of the thing that you're grasping for but can't get a hold you're grasping for but can't get a hold you're grasping for but can't get a hold of, then you need to look at the cross, of, then you need to look at the cross, of, then you need to look at the cross, which of course to you is foolishness which of course to you is foolishness which of course to you is foolishness and a stumbling block. But but actually and a stumbling block. But but actually and a stumbling block. But but actually that's real wisdom and that's real power that's real wisdom and that's real power that's real wisdom and that's real power right there at the cross. I wonder if we could um as we draw I wonder if we could um as we draw towards a closing this conversation, towards a closing this conversation, towards a closing this conversation, just talk about the way in which just talk about the way in which just talk about the way in which Christians can cultivate Christians can cultivate Christians can cultivate these true stories and lean into these these true stories and lean into these these true stories and lean into these true stories and perhaps disengage a true stories and perhaps disengage a true stories and perhaps disengage a little bit from the the false stories or little bit from the the false stories or little bit from the the false stories or the incomplete uh stories that are in the incomplete uh stories that are in the incomplete uh stories that are in our culture. I I I loved at one point our culture. I I I loved at one point our culture. I I I loved at one point you talked about the importance of you talked about the importance of you talked about the importance of Christian community for doing this and Christian community for doing this and Christian community for doing this and the the local church as the place where

the the local church as the place where the the local church as the place where this happens. I' I'd love you just to this happens. I' I'd love you just to this happens. I' I'd love you just to unpack that a little bit. Why are unpack that a little bit. Why are unpack that a little bit. Why are churches so crucial in this whole idea churches so crucial in this whole idea churches so crucial in this whole idea of cultural narrative? You know, it goes of cultural narrative? You know, it goes of cultural narrative? You know, it goes back to I was thinking about this um in back to I was thinking about this um in back to I was thinking about this um in my tradition, Matthew 18, you know, how my tradition, Matthew 18, you know, how my tradition, Matthew 18, you know, how do you do reconciliation between people do you do reconciliation between people do you do reconciliation between people inside the church, Christians? And it inside the church, Christians? And it inside the church, Christians? And it says if you have something against your says if you have something against your says if you have something against your brother, you're supposed to go and bring brother, you're supposed to go and bring brother, you're supposed to go and bring someone else with you. Uh so, first someone else with you. Uh so, first someone else with you. Uh so, first you're supposed to go by yourself, and you're supposed to go by yourself, and you're supposed to go by yourself, and the second thing you're supposed to do, the second thing you're supposed to do, the second thing you're supposed to do, if they won't listen to you, then bring if they won't listen to you, then bring if they won't listen to you, then bring someone else. What people don't realize, someone else. What people don't realize, someone else. What people don't realize, they always think, oh, bringing someone they always think, oh, bringing someone they always think, oh, bringing someone else is so that somebody you have backup else is so that somebody you have backup else is so that somebody you have backup to make your argument, which is partly to make your argument, which is partly to make your argument, which is partly true, but it's also so that that other true, but it's also so that that other true, but it's also so that that other person can talk you out of it if you're person can talk you out of it if you're person can talk you out of it if you're the one who's way off. People don't ever the one who's way off. People don't ever the one who's way off. People don't ever think of it that way that actually the think of it that way that actually the think of it that way that actually the church is beautiful because we always church is beautiful because we always church is beautiful because we always have a sense of reality of how things have a sense of reality of how things have a sense of reality of how things are. But we know through are. But we know through are. But we know through our just because we have this sense our just because we have this sense our just because we have this sense impression doesn't mean it really is impression doesn't mean it really is impression doesn't mean it really is true. So there there's a huge role for true. So there there's a huge role for true. So there there's a huge role for the community, the body of believers to the community, the body of believers to the community, the body of believers to check yourself and say, "Hey, I feel check yourself and say, "Hey, I feel check yourself and say, "Hey, I feel this. I think this. This is how I but am this. I think this. This is how I but am this. I think this. This is how I but am I off?" And get the the views of others.

I off?" And get the the views of others. I off?" And get the the views of others. Doesn't mean they're right, by the way, Doesn't mean they're right, by the way, Doesn't mean they're right, by the way, because they could be off, too. But you because they could be off, too. But you because they could be off, too. But you would hope collectively, would hope collectively, would hope collectively, you know, Christians from all different you know, Christians from all different you know, Christians from all different backgrounds with different experiences. backgrounds with different experiences. backgrounds with different experiences. You would hope to be able to help each You would hope to be able to help each You would hope to be able to help each other. And and I think we can because we other. And and I think we can because we other. And and I think we can because we shouldn't be pointing to ourselves. shouldn't be pointing to ourselves. shouldn't be pointing to ourselves. should be pointing to to him and um should be pointing to to him and um should be pointing to to him and um Jesus when he's done. So I I think what Jesus when he's done. So I I think what Jesus when he's done. So I I think what I would start with is for Christians I I would start with is for Christians I I would start with is for Christians I when you have an emotion when you have a when you have an emotion when you have a when you have an emotion when you have a a sadness an anger I would start with a sadness an anger I would start with a sadness an anger I would start with instead of trying to manage it you know instead of trying to manage it you know instead of trying to manage it you know conceal don't feel or push it down conceal don't feel or push it down conceal don't feel or push it down instead of doing that I would trace it. instead of doing that I would trace it. instead of doing that I would trace it. I think I would ask what's the story I think I would ask what's the story I think I would ask what's the story behind this story? Why am I angry? Why? behind this story? Why am I angry? Why? behind this story? Why am I angry? Why? What's at stake here? Uh what's what What's at stake here? Uh what's what What's at stake here? Uh what's what what do I think is at risk? And then what do I think is at risk? And then what do I think is at risk? And then bring what you find bring what you find bring what you find to the gospel and and and process it to the gospel and and and process it to the gospel and and and process it with that and say, you know, because one with that and say, you know, because one with that and say, you know, because one one emotion processed before Christ is one emotion processed before Christ is one emotion processed before Christ is worth a 100 sermons that you could worth a 100 sermons that you could worth a 100 sermons that you could possibly listen to. Um, you know, you possibly listen to. Um, you know, you possibly listen to. Um, you know, you you got to ask each feel because each you got to ask each feel because each you got to ask each feel because each feeling is probably connected to a story feeling is probably connected to a story feeling is probably connected to a story and each story and each story and each story has a promise. You have to say, "What is has a promise. You have to say, "What is has a promise. You have to say, "What is the promise and does it deliver?" You the promise and does it deliver?" You the promise and does it deliver?" You actually brought this up earlier. What's actually brought this up earlier. What's actually brought this up earlier. What's the promise that this thing is saying the promise that this thing is saying the promise that this thing is saying and does it deliver? And I think just as and does it deliver? And I think just as and does it deliver? And I think just as being curious and asking questions, being curious and asking questions, being curious and asking questions, knowing it's safe, doing that doing that knowing it's safe, doing that doing that knowing it's safe, doing that doing that homework for yourself, but then giving homework for yourself, but then giving homework for yourself, but then giving your friends and Christian community

your friends and Christian community your friends and Christian community space to do that for you. I think you go space to do that for you. I think you go space to do that for you. I think you go a long way. I don't know. What What do a long way. I don't know. What What do a long way. I don't know. What What do you think? you think? you think? >> Well, I I think that's a wonderful piece >> Well, I I think that's a wonderful piece >> Well, I I think that's a wonderful piece of advice for for the Christian. I I'd of advice for for the Christian. I I'd of advice for for the Christian. I I'd never thought of it that way before. You never thought of it that way before. You never thought of it that way before. You take one emotion that you feel, trace it take one emotion that you feel, trace it take one emotion that you feel, trace it back to the gospel. back to the gospel. back to the gospel. that's worth, you know, whatever 100 that's worth, you know, whatever 100 that's worth, you know, whatever 100 sermons are. That that is incredibly sermons are. That that is incredibly sermons are. That that is incredibly powerful as a a nugget of insight into powerful as a a nugget of insight into powerful as a a nugget of insight into yourself and into the power of the yourself and into the power of the yourself and into the power of the gospel to reshape yourself. That that is gospel to reshape yourself. That that is gospel to reshape yourself. That that is really precious and worth holding on to. really precious and worth holding on to. really precious and worth holding on to. I I don't want to say anything else I I don't want to say anything else I I don't want to say anything else other than that. That that just seemed other than that. That that just seemed other than that. That that just seemed incredibly rich to me. So, if if that's incredibly rich to me. So, if if that's incredibly rich to me. So, if if that's what the the Christian might be what the the Christian might be what the the Christian might be encouraged to go away from this encouraged to go away from this encouraged to go away from this conversation thinking, I'm going to take conversation thinking, I'm going to take conversation thinking, I'm going to take one feeling that perhaps surprises me or one feeling that perhaps surprises me or one feeling that perhaps surprises me or that overwhelms me this week. I'm going that overwhelms me this week. I'm going that overwhelms me this week. I'm going to trace it back to the gospel. I'm to trace it back to the gospel. I'm to trace it back to the gospel. I'm going to try and understand going to try and understand going to try and understand what story I'm living in by analyzing what story I'm living in by analyzing what story I'm living in by analyzing why that feeling happened and what it why that feeling happened and what it why that feeling happened and what it how it relates to the gospel. What might how it relates to the gospel. What might how it relates to the gospel. What might be one thing that a more skeptical be one thing that a more skeptical be one thing that a more skeptical listener could potentially do this week?

listener could potentially do this week? listener could potentially do this week? They might not be convinced of the They might not be convinced of the They might not be convinced of the Christian story. They they potentially Christian story. They they potentially Christian story. They they potentially might be convinced that they're not might be convinced that they're not might be convinced that they're not actually enslaved to these cultural actually enslaved to these cultural actually enslaved to these cultural narratives. They're living their own narratives. They're living their own narratives. They're living their own life. They're living by common sense. life. They're living by common sense. life. They're living by common sense. What one thing might they think or or or What one thing might they think or or or What one thing might they think or or or do this week that that might um help do this week that that might um help do this week that that might um help them in their situation? them in their situation? them in their situation? >> I like that you said that a lot of folks >> I like that you said that a lot of folks >> I like that you said that a lot of folks might think they're not living by these might think they're not living by these might think they're not living by these cultural narratives, they're living by cultural narratives, they're living by cultural narratives, they're living by common sense. But that phrase right common sense. But that phrase right common sense. But that phrase right there, common sense, that's still a there, common sense, that's still a there, common sense, that's still a cultural narrative. And I I would just cultural narrative. And I I would just cultural narrative. And I I would just humbly ask humbly ask humbly ask uh those individuals to take whatever uh those individuals to take whatever uh those individuals to take whatever phrases you're living by, take a piece phrases you're living by, take a piece phrases you're living by, take a piece of paper, blank piece of paper, and say, of paper, blank piece of paper, and say, of paper, blank piece of paper, and say, "What are my phrases?" It could be "What are my phrases?" It could be "What are my phrases?" It could be coming from your I was I went on a walk coming from your I was I went on a walk coming from your I was I went on a walk with someone and they said that uh you with someone and they said that uh you with someone and they said that uh you know, their father used to say phrases know, their father used to say phrases know, their father used to say phrases growing up and they just try to live by growing up and they just try to live by growing up and they just try to live by those phrases. uh you try to write them those phrases. uh you try to write them those phrases. uh you try to write them down because you might not even know down because you might not even know down because you might not even know what they all are. But once you write what they all are. But once you write what they all are. But once you write down whatever those phrases are could down whatever those phrases are could down whatever those phrases are could maybe it's not the ones that I just that maybe it's not the ones that I just that maybe it's not the ones that I just that we've been talking about. But then ask we've been talking about. But then ask we've been talking about. But then ask yourself the two questions which is yourself the two questions which is yourself the two questions which is what's the promise being made by this what's the promise being made by this what's the promise being made by this phrase and does it actually deliver?

phrase and does it actually deliver? phrase and does it actually deliver? What's the promise and does it deliver? What's the promise and does it deliver? What's the promise and does it deliver? And and um don't test it abstractly. Try And and um don't test it abstractly. Try And and um don't test it abstractly. Try to put it into your actual experiences to put it into your actual experiences to put it into your actual experiences and what happens. Does it lead you to and what happens. Does it lead you to and what happens. Does it lead you to become the person you want to be? Is is become the person you want to be? Is is become the person you want to be? Is is it enough? Does it have a moral it enough? Does it have a moral it enough? Does it have a moral framework that can sustain you? Does it framework that can sustain you? Does it framework that can sustain you? Does it does the story give a fair does the story give a fair does the story give a fair explanation and and uh accounting of explanation and and uh accounting of explanation and and uh accounting of your experiences? your experiences? your experiences? That's what I do. Just give give it the That's what I do. Just give give it the That's what I do. Just give give it the exam examination exam examination exam examination you would give any other claim. Like a you would give any other claim. Like a you would give any other claim. Like a lot of my non-Christian friends say, "I lot of my non-Christian friends say, "I lot of my non-Christian friends say, "I can't believe in the claims of can't believe in the claims of can't believe in the claims of Christianity." And I say, "That's Christianity." And I say, "That's Christianity." And I say, "That's completely fair. What are the claims completely fair. What are the claims completely fair. What are the claims that you hold?" and I don't I'm like I that you hold?" and I don't I'm like I that you hold?" and I don't I'm like I don't hold any claim. I'm like let's don't hold any claim. I'm like let's don't hold any claim. I'm like let's let's be honest about this and and let's let's be honest about this and and let's let's be honest about this and and let's just compare and contrast. I'll I'll just compare and contrast. I'll I'll just compare and contrast. I'll I'll I'll show you my my claims, but we all I'll show you my my claims, but we all I'll show you my my claims, but we all have them and I think it's fair to say have them and I think it's fair to say have them and I think it's fair to say what's the promise and does it deliver? what's the promise and does it deliver? what's the promise and does it deliver? I would start there and and I I hope we I would start there and and I I hope we I would start there and and I I hope we all do that. all do that. all do that. >> Yeah. And that exercise of >> Yeah. And that exercise of >> Yeah. And that exercise of self-awareness is is just really self-awareness is is just really self-awareness is is just really helpful, isn't it? If we're living by helpful, isn't it? If we're living by helpful, isn't it? If we're living by claims that we don't realize or can't claims that we don't realize or can't claims that we don't realize or can't name, then we're back to the propaganda.

name, then we're back to the propaganda. name, then we're back to the propaganda. There's a danger. There's a danger. There's a danger. >> And I think Christians if they did this >> And I think Christians if they did this >> And I think Christians if they did this exercise, they might realize they oh I exercise, they might realize they oh I exercise, they might realize they oh I thought my statement is I I live for thought my statement is I I live for thought my statement is I I live for Christ, but actually turns out I live Christ, but actually turns out I live Christ, but actually turns out I live for my job. I live for my family. I my for my job. I live for my family. I my for my job. I live for my family. I my identity is is how much approval I got identity is is how much approval I got identity is is how much approval I got today. Did my father say say he's proud today. Did my father say say he's proud today. Did my father say say he's proud of me? did you know and and so find the of me? did you know and and so find the of me? did you know and and so find the phrases we're living by and and I think phrases we're living by and and I think phrases we're living by and and I think we owe it to all ourselves no matter we owe it to all ourselves no matter we owe it to all ourselves no matter what we believe. I think that's us. I what we believe. I think that's us. I what we believe. I think that's us. I think that's the hope would be to find think that's the hope would be to find think that's the hope would be to find the stories that we're living by and are the stories that we're living by and are the stories that we're living by and are they enough? they enough? they enough? And self-nowledge is often painful, And self-nowledge is often painful, And self-nowledge is often painful, isn't it? I I don't think I would find isn't it? I I don't think I would find isn't it? I I don't think I would find it comfortable to know the stories that it comfortable to know the stories that it comfortable to know the stories that I'm living by. But that's where the I'm living by. But that's where the I'm living by. But that's where the gospel really comes into its own and gospel really comes into its own and gospel really comes into its own and shines because we we are right at the shines because we we are right at the shines because we we are right at the heart of the Christian story is heart of the Christian story is heart of the Christian story is repentance and forgiveness and repentance and forgiveness and repentance and forgiveness and redemption redemption redemption and not having our failings follow us and not having our failings follow us and not having our failings follow us around around around >> like a an accusing >> like a an accusing >> like a an accusing um advocate for the rest of our lives.

um advocate for the rest of our lives. um advocate for the rest of our lives. And so self-nowledge for the Christian And so self-nowledge for the Christian And so self-nowledge for the Christian needn't be needn't be needn't be crushing. crushing. crushing. >> Yeah. Whereas I think if if I didn't >> Yeah. Whereas I think if if I didn't >> Yeah. Whereas I think if if I didn't have a God who loved me despite who I have a God who loved me despite who I have a God who loved me despite who I am. Um am. Um am. Um >> that level of self-nowledge I I I don't >> that level of self-nowledge I I I don't >> that level of self-nowledge I I I don't know that I'd want it actually. know that I'd want it actually. know that I'd want it actually. >> That's a really good point. But it's >> That's a really good point. But it's >> That's a really good point. But it's also shows you the reason why we don't also shows you the reason why we don't also shows you the reason why we don't want to do these things is it's not want to do these things is it's not want to do these things is it's not comfortable. But that's why sometimes comfortable. But that's why sometimes comfortable. But that's why sometimes the best places where when we do do them the best places where when we do do them the best places where when we do do them is in pain. It's in suffering. Like for is in pain. It's in suffering. Like for is in pain. It's in suffering. Like for my story, I literally in the book, I my story, I literally in the book, I my story, I literally in the book, I don't I wouldn't have come to these don't I wouldn't have come to these don't I wouldn't have come to these these things unless I was really these things unless I was really these things unless I was really hurting. And sometimes that's the those hurting. And sometimes that's the those hurting. And sometimes that's the those are that's the grounds and the spaces are that's the grounds and the spaces are that's the grounds and the spaces where we can most look because if I'm where we can most look because if I'm where we can most look because if I'm not hurting, I'm I'm I'm ignoring. Eat, not hurting, I'm I'm I'm ignoring. Eat, not hurting, I'm I'm I'm ignoring. Eat, drink, and be merry, you know, or drink, and be merry, you know, or drink, and be merry, you know, or there's other things to do. But it's there's other things to do. But it's there's other things to do. But it's it's in the pain moments where they God it's in the pain moments where they God it's in the pain moments where they God might be moving in our hearts. At least might be moving in our hearts. At least might be moving in our hearts. At least that that was the case for me.

>> It is a very poignant and very appetite >> It is a very poignant and very appetite moment I think on which to to draw this moment I think on which to to draw this moment I think on which to to draw this conversation to a close. Michael, it's conversation to a close. Michael, it's conversation to a close. Michael, it's been an absolute privilege speaking with been an absolute privilege speaking with been an absolute privilege speaking with you about these things. I've learned a you about these things. I've learned a you about these things. I've learned a lot in the conversation. I learned a lot lot in the conversation. I learned a lot lot in the conversation. I learned a lot uh reading the book. Um, and uh, I will uh reading the book. Um, and uh, I will uh reading the book. Um, and uh, I will take these insights hopefully into the take these insights hopefully into the take these insights hopefully into the coming weeks. Do pray for me. Uh, and coming weeks. Do pray for me. Uh, and coming weeks. Do pray for me. Uh, and uh, I I pray that our listeners and our uh, I I pray that our listeners and our uh, I I pray that our listeners and our viewers might be able to do the same. viewers might be able to do the same. viewers might be able to do the same. Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you so much for this conversation. >> Thanks for letting me be here. It's >> Thanks for letting me be here. It's >> Thanks for letting me be here. It's great. Appreciate it.