AI: Friend or Foe (with Michael Graham) [The Deep Dish - Ep. 37]

So, it's important for us, So, it's important for us, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> in an ongoing fashion, to ask hard >> in an ongoing fashion, to ask hard >> in an ongoing fashion, to ask hard questions back of artificial questions back of artificial questions back of artificial intelligence. In other words, are you intelligence. In other words, are you intelligence. In other words, are you giving me answers that are theologically giving me answers that are theologically giving me answers that are theologically reliable? reliable? reliable? And when I ask you ethical questions, And when I ask you ethical questions, And when I ask you ethical questions, are you going to give me answers that are you going to give me answers that are you going to give me answers that are in accordance with God's word? You are in accordance with God's word? You are in accordance with God's word? You know, when we ask questions about the know, when we ask questions about the know, when we ask questions about the Bible, are, [music] Bible, are, [music] Bible, are, [music] you know, are you going to give me you know, are you going to give me you know, are you going to give me accurate understandings of those things? [music] [music] >> Hi friends, welcome to the deep dish, a >> Hi friends, welcome to the deep dish, a >> Hi friends, welcome to the deep dish, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition where podcast from The Gospel Coalition where podcast from The Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Melissa Kruger and I'm deep truths. I'm Melissa Kruger and I'm deep truths. I'm Melissa Kruger and I'm here with my co-host and friend Courtney here with my co-host and friend Courtney here with my co-host and friend Courtney Doctor. And today we are very excited Doctor. And today we are very excited Doctor. And today we are very excited because we have another one of our TGC because we have another one of our TGC because we have another one of our TGC colleagues with us, Michael Graham. He colleagues with us, Michael Graham. He colleagues with us, Michael Graham. He is the program director for the Keller is the program director for the Keller is the program director for the Keller Center here at TGC. Center here at TGC. Center here at TGC. Um, but but Graham just knows a lot Um, but but Graham just knows a lot Um, but but Graham just knows a lot about a lot. That's what I think about about a lot. That's what I think about about a lot. That's what I think about Michael Graham. So, while he does that, Michael Graham. So, while he does that, Michael Graham. So, while he does that, he he's got a lot of hidden talents. I he he's got a lot of hidden talents. I he he's got a lot of hidden talents. I feel like you're like Inspector Gadget feel like you're like Inspector Gadget feel like you're like Inspector Gadget with your go-go gadget machines. You can with your go-go gadget machines. You can with your go-go gadget machines. You can just like, you know so many different just like, you know so many different just like, you know so many different things about different things. So, I things about different things. So, I things about different things. So, I always love talking with Michael. And always love talking with Michael. And always love talking with Michael. And today we're going to be talking about today we're going to be talking about today we're going to be talking about AI, which is something I have had a ton AI, which is something I have had a ton AI, which is something I have had a ton of conversations with a ton of people of conversations with a ton of people of conversations with a ton of people just around tables about. Um, just around tables about. Um, just around tables about. Um, Courtney, but I was not having These are Courtney, but I was not having These are Courtney, but I was not having These are new conversations. I was not having

new conversations. I was not having new conversations. I was not having these conversations 5 years ago. I I these conversations 5 years ago. I I these conversations 5 years ago. I I think I thought it was a sci-fi world think I thought it was a sci-fi world think I thought it was a sci-fi world that was never going to happen. What that was never going to happen. What that was never going to happen. What about you, Courtney? about you, Courtney? about you, Courtney? >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think that that's >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think that that's >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think that that's exactly it. Like when I first even exactly it. Like when I first even exactly it. Like when I first even heard, I didn't even know what AI stood heard, I didn't even know what AI stood heard, I didn't even know what AI stood for when it first kind of, you know, for when it first kind of, you know, for when it first kind of, you know, started becoming something that was started becoming something that was started becoming something that was entering into conversations and and then entering into conversations and and then entering into conversations and and then had no idea. I mean, I've learned just had no idea. I mean, I've learned just had no idea. I mean, I've learned just about everything I know about AI, I've about everything I know about AI, I've about everything I know about AI, I've learned from Mike. Um, and just to like, learned from Mike. Um, and just to like, learned from Mike. Um, and just to like, you know, double click on that whole you know, double click on that whole you know, double click on that whole thing that he knows a lot about a lot of thing that he knows a lot about a lot of thing that he knows a lot about a lot of things, including Disney. So, so not things, including Disney. So, so not things, including Disney. So, so not only is he really smart and wise, but only is he really smart and wise, but only is he really smart and wise, but he's also a ton of fun. So, um, there's he's also a ton of fun. So, um, there's he's also a ton of fun. So, um, there's a ride at Disney that I'm obsessed with, a ride at Disney that I'm obsessed with, a ride at Disney that I'm obsessed with, and every time he takes his kids there, and every time he takes his kids there, and every time he takes his kids there, he sends me a picture of them. It so he sends me a picture of them. It so he sends me a picture of them. It so just like creates, you know, we've had just like creates, you know, we've had just like creates, you know, we've had these episodes on envy and coveting, and these episodes on envy and coveting, and these episodes on envy and coveting, and I'm always like, "Oh, I wish I was I'm always like, "Oh, I wish I was I'm always like, "Oh, I wish I was there." But anyway, AI, let's stay there." But anyway, AI, let's stay there." But anyway, AI, let's stay focused. Um, so AI, you know, is focused. Um, so AI, you know, is focused. Um, so AI, you know, is something that now I'm assuming that something that now I'm assuming that something that now I'm assuming that everybody listening has some level of everybody listening has some level of everybody listening has some level of awareness of. Like, just this thing awareness of. Like, just this thing awareness of. Like, just this thing that's out there. Maybe you use it.

that's out there. Maybe you use it. that's out there. Maybe you use it. Maybe it's become an integral part of, Maybe it's become an integral part of, Maybe it's become an integral part of, like, your work or your your life or like, your work or your your life or like, your work or your your life or just the, you know, there's a lot of fun just the, you know, there's a lot of fun just the, you know, there's a lot of fun things you can do with AI. So, even even things you can do with AI. So, even even things you can do with AI. So, even even if you don't use it, you still hear a if you don't use it, you still hear a if you don't use it, you still hear a lot about it, and um, we probably, just lot about it, and um, we probably, just lot about it, and um, we probably, just everybody listening is probably their everybody listening is probably their everybody listening is probably their engagement with AI is at very different engagement with AI is at very different engagement with AI is at very different levels. levels. levels. So, one reason that we wanted Mike to to So, one reason that we wanted Mike to to So, one reason that we wanted Mike to to be on here for this conversation is be on here for this conversation is be on here for this conversation is because he is actually somebody who knew because he is actually somebody who knew because he is actually somebody who knew what AI was 5 years ago. I actually, I'd what AI was 5 years ago. I actually, I'd what AI was 5 years ago. I actually, I'd love to hear, Mike, like, when you first love to hear, Mike, like, when you first love to hear, Mike, like, when you first started started hearing about it. But started started hearing about it. But started started hearing about it. But you've done a lot of thinking about it, you've done a lot of thinking about it, you've done a lot of thinking about it, and so I want you to start us off. Tell and so I want you to start us off. Tell and so I want you to start us off. Tell us when you first heard about AI, and us when you first heard about AI, and us when you first heard about AI, and what do we even mean when we say AI, and what do we even mean when we say AI, and what do we even mean when we say AI, and why should we, as, you know, a why should we, as, you know, a why should we, as, you know, a predominantly Christian women audience, predominantly Christian women audience, predominantly Christian women audience, why should we be thinking about um, why should we be thinking about um, why should we be thinking about um, about AI? about AI? about AI? >> Yeah, so AI is a pretty complex field. >> Yeah, so AI is a pretty complex field. >> Yeah, so AI is a pretty complex field. Um, it's been something that's been on Um, it's been something that's been on Um, it's been something that's been on my radar since about the late 1990s. my radar since about the late 1990s. my radar since about the late 1990s. Um, Um, Um, and back then it was and back then it was and back then it was >> 1990s, yeah.

>> 1990s, yeah. >> 1990s, yeah. >> Did computers exist then? What are you >> Did computers exist then? What are you >> Did computers exist then? What are you talking about? talking about? talking about? >> Yeah. So, my dad was a computer software >> Yeah. So, my dad was a computer software >> Yeah. So, my dad was a computer software engineer, and I I was doing research uh, engineer, and I I was doing research uh, engineer, and I I was doing research uh, making um, making um, making um, stock market uh, prediction algorithms. stock market uh, prediction algorithms. stock market uh, prediction algorithms. And so, one of the one of the tools that And so, one of the one of the tools that And so, one of the one of the tools that we used for that is Of course you are. we used for that is Of course you are. we used for that is Of course you are. >> Cuz that's what we were all doing in the >> Cuz that's what we were all doing in the >> Cuz that's what we were all doing in the '90s. '90s. '90s. >> Yeah, there's something called machine >> Yeah, there's something called machine >> Yeah, there's something called machine learning. And machine learning is when learning. And machine learning is when learning. And machine learning is when you feed a computer lots of information you feed a computer lots of information you feed a computer lots of information and you look for patterns. And so, you and you look for patterns. And so, you and you look for patterns. And so, you know, as a field, artificial know, as a field, artificial know, as a field, artificial intelligence has been around for over 50 intelligence has been around for over 50 intelligence has been around for over 50 years in a variety of different years in a variety of different years in a variety of different capacities. But typically, when people capacities. But typically, when people capacities. But typically, when people are using that term today, what they are using that term today, what they are using that term today, what they mean specifically is probably what we mean specifically is probably what we mean specifically is probably what we what we would call technically a large what we would call technically a large what we would call technically a large language model. Large language model, or language model. Large language model, or language model. Large language model, or LLM for short. So, LLMs would be things LLM for short. So, LLMs would be things LLM for short. So, LLMs would be things like ChatGPT, like ChatGPT, like ChatGPT, Anthropic's Claude, Google's Gemini, um Anthropic's Claude, Google's Gemini, um Anthropic's Claude, Google's Gemini, um Elon Musk's Grok, these kinds of things.

Elon Musk's Grok, these kinds of things. Elon Musk's Grok, these kinds of things. These are all LLMs. Now, if you go one These are all LLMs. Now, if you go one These are all LLMs. Now, if you go one level up from LLMs, there's a form of AI level up from LLMs, there's a form of AI level up from LLMs, there's a form of AI called generative AI. So, LLMs are a called generative AI. So, LLMs are a called generative AI. So, LLMs are a type of generative AI, but there are type of generative AI, but there are type of generative AI, but there are other generative AIs that deal with other generative AIs that deal with other generative AIs that deal with audio, audio, audio, images, and video. So, audio, images, images, and video. So, audio, images, images, and video. So, audio, images, video, and LLMs, which are text, um all video, and LLMs, which are text, um all video, and LLMs, which are text, um all of those are basically generative AI. of those are basically generative AI. of those are basically generative AI. So, typically, when somebody is thinking So, typically, when somebody is thinking So, typically, when somebody is thinking about AI, they're probably thinking about AI, they're probably thinking about AI, they're probably thinking about LLMs in the in the form of just about LLMs in the in the form of just about LLMs in the in the form of just kind of general conversation. One of the kind of general conversation. One of the kind of general conversation. One of the things that will be coming up in you in things that will be coming up in you in things that will be coming up in you in the next 6 to 12 months that will be the next 6 to 12 months that will be the next 6 to 12 months that will be more on people's radar is a different more on people's radar is a different more on people's radar is a different form of AI called agentic AI. form of AI called agentic AI. form of AI called agentic AI. A G E N T I C, so agent I C. Um agentic A G E N T I C, so agent I C. Um agentic A G E N T I C, so agent I C. Um agentic AI is, you know, LLMs are more like a AI is, you know, LLMs are more like a AI is, you know, LLMs are more like a like a personal assistant, where you like a personal assistant, where you like a personal assistant, where you kind of have, you know, "Hey, I'm going kind of have, you know, "Hey, I'm going kind of have, you know, "Hey, I'm going to bounce this thing off of you. We to bounce this thing off of you. We to bounce this thing off of you. We might have a little bit of back and might have a little bit of back and might have a little bit of back and forth, you know, in a kind of text-based forth, you know, in a kind of text-based forth, you know, in a kind of text-based conversation." What agentic AI is more conversation." What agentic AI is more conversation." What agentic AI is more like it's like having a co-worker where like it's like having a co-worker where like it's like having a co-worker where you give it a series of tasks, you set you give it a series of tasks, you set you give it a series of tasks, you set it loose, and a day later or several it loose, and a day later or several it loose, and a day later or several hours later, it brings you finished hours later, it brings you finished hours later, it brings you finished products, you know, kind of back to you.

products, you know, kind of back to you. products, you know, kind of back to you. So, the agentic AI era is like if you So, the agentic AI era is like if you So, the agentic AI era is like if you think the current era of large language think the current era of large language think the current era of large language models has been interesting or models has been interesting or models has been interesting or disruptive, the agentic era is going to disruptive, the agentic era is going to disruptive, the agentic era is going to be be be far more disorienting. far more disorienting. far more disorienting. >> Hm. Is that the one where like you might >> Hm. Is that the one where like you might >> Hm. Is that the one where like you might be talking with some, you know, someone, be talking with some, you know, someone, be talking with some, you know, someone, but then you find out it's actually not but then you find out it's actually not but then you find out it's actually not someone, it's AI? Is that agentic? someone, it's AI? Is that agentic? someone, it's AI? Is that agentic? >> Are you talking about like a customer >> Are you talking about like a customer >> Are you talking about like a customer service representative? You called up a service representative? You called up a service representative? You called up a corporation for Yeah, yeah. corporation for Yeah, yeah. corporation for Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, that would be more of the generative um that would be more of the generative um that would be more of the generative um AI voice version, AI voice version, AI voice version, where basically the a large language where basically the a large language where basically the a large language model model model combined with an audio model are working combined with an audio model are working combined with an audio model are working together. Uh agentic AI is vastly more together. Uh agentic AI is vastly more together. Uh agentic AI is vastly more powerful than even powerful than even powerful than even that technology. that technology. that technology. >> Okay, so I'm writing down. I want to I >> Okay, so I'm writing down. I want to I >> Okay, so I'm writing down. I want to I want to recap because [laughter] want to recap because [laughter] want to recap because [laughter] this is like learning a new language, so this is like learning a new language, so this is like learning a new language, so I think this is important. We'll put I think this is important. We'll put I think this is important. We'll put this in the show notes that cuz this in the show notes that cuz this in the show notes that cuz sometimes I think you need definitions sometimes I think you need definitions sometimes I think you need definitions to even follow this type of to even follow this type of to even follow this type of conversation. So, you're saying conversation. So, you're saying conversation. So, you're saying generative AI includes large language generative AI includes large language generative AI includes large language models, which are LLMs. So, under the models, which are LLMs. So, under the models, which are LLMs. So, under the umbrella of umbrella of generative, you umbrella of umbrella of generative, you umbrella of umbrella of generative, you have LL LLMs, have LL LLMs, have LL LLMs, which is what most of us use on a which is what most of us use on a which is what most of us use on a regular basis. And you mentioned some of regular basis. And you mentioned some of regular basis. And you mentioned some of the types. You have like Claude, you the types. You have like Claude, you the types. You have like Claude, you have ChatGPT, which you told me the have ChatGPT, which you told me the have ChatGPT, which you told me the other day meant I was a boomer cuz

other day meant I was a boomer cuz other day meant I was a boomer cuz that's still what I was using. That's that's still what I was using. That's that's still what I was using. That's okay, we're still friends. Um okay, we're still friends. Um okay, we're still friends. Um and then um Grok is um and then um Grok is um and then um Grok is um What is that Musk's? Is that his? What is that Musk's? Is that his? What is that Musk's? Is that his? >> Elon Musk's. Yeah. >> Elon Musk's. Yeah. >> Elon Musk's. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and you know, and there are >> Yeah. And and you know, and there are >> Yeah. And and you know, and there are different countries have different ones different countries have different ones different countries have different ones as well. We've talked about um some of as well. We've talked about um some of as well. We've talked about um some of those as well. So, those are all in that those as well. So, those are all in that those as well. So, those are all in that type. And you said the other word is type. And you said the other word is type. And you said the other word is agentic agentic? Is that am I saying it agentic agentic? Is that am I saying it agentic agentic? Is that am I saying it correctly? correctly? correctly? >> Yeah, like eight like the word agent and >> Yeah, like eight like the word agent and >> Yeah, like eight like the word agent and then I see on the end. then I see on the end. then I see on the end. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So >> So >> So >> I'm writing this down for you. >> I'm writing this down for you. >> I'm writing this down for you. >> AI yeah. >> AI yeah. >> AI yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> That's where the AI just functions like >> That's where the AI just functions like >> That's where the AI just functions like an agent. an agent. an agent. >> Okay. And so >> Okay. And so >> Okay. And so let me just ask you give me something let me just ask you give me something let me just ask you give me something the agentic can do that the um the agentic can do that the um the agentic can do that the um generative can't do. Give me a give me a generative can't do. Give me a give me a generative can't do. Give me a give me a like example cuz I I we just actually like example cuz I I we just actually like example cuz I I we just actually went to a fast food restaurant the other went to a fast food restaurant the other went to a fast food restaurant the other day and Mike looked at me my husband day and Mike looked at me my husband day and Mike looked at me my husband Mike looked at me and was like uh I just Mike looked at me and was like uh I just Mike looked at me and was like uh I just ordered basically through an AI. Yeah, ordered basically through an AI. Yeah, ordered basically through an AI. Yeah, it was it was this whole new ordering it was it was this whole new ordering it was it was this whole new ordering thing at you know, I won't say which thing at you know, I won't say which thing at you know, I won't say which fast food restaurant we were driving fast food restaurant we were driving fast food restaurant we were driving through, but we we got to order and he through, but we we got to order and he through, but we we got to order and he realized it was a computer talking to realized it was a computer talking to realized it was a computer talking to him. And so you're saying that's him. And so you're saying that's him. And so you're saying that's generative. Well, give me an example uh generative. Well, give me an example uh generative. Well, give me an example uh you know, like how would this you know, like how would this you know, like how would this would this happen to us at the mall?

would this happen to us at the mall? would this happen to us at the mall? Would this happen to us in real life? Or Would this happen to us in real life? Or Would this happen to us in real life? Or is it something we're going to use? Does is it something we're going to use? Does is it something we're going to use? Does that like meaning yeah. that like meaning yeah. that like meaning yeah. >> So, imagine you work for you know, a a >> So, imagine you work for you know, a a >> So, imagine you work for you know, a a company and your job in that company is company and your job in that company is company and your job in that company is to develop sales leads. And so you're to develop sales leads. And so you're to develop sales leads. And so you're you're looking to generate business for you're looking to generate business for you're looking to generate business for whatever the company is that you work whatever the company is that you work whatever the company is that you work for. Um in the past you'd do that all for. Um in the past you'd do that all for. Um in the past you'd do that all that stuff by hand. You know, you'd that stuff by hand. You know, you'd that stuff by hand. You know, you'd figure out, okay, what is our marketing figure out, okay, what is our marketing figure out, okay, what is our marketing funnel? And you put stuff in the top of funnel? And you put stuff in the top of funnel? And you put stuff in the top of the funnel and you work people, you the funnel and you work people, you the funnel and you work people, you know, um who might be who might need know, um who might be who might need know, um who might be who might need your company's businesses and services your company's businesses and services your company's businesses and services um down to the bottom of the funnel and um down to the bottom of the funnel and um down to the bottom of the funnel and eventually those lead to sales. eventually those lead to sales. eventually those lead to sales. Well, Well, Well, in the agentic AI era era, let's say um in the agentic AI era era, let's say um in the agentic AI era era, let's say um you could probably dramatically you could probably dramatically you could probably dramatically automate a lot of that process by automate a lot of that process by automate a lot of that process by basically helping, you know, basically basically helping, you know, basically basically helping, you know, basically telling the the AI platform that, "Hey, telling the the AI platform that, "Hey, telling the the AI platform that, "Hey, our customers look like this. We want our customers look like this. We want our customers look like this. We want you to go throughout the entire internet you to go throughout the entire internet you to go throughout the entire internet and find people that look like this that and find people that look like this that and find people that look like this that have need for these kinds of products have need for these kinds of products have need for these kinds of products and services. We want you to build you and services. We want you to build you and services. We want you to build you to build a spreadsheet that has the to build a spreadsheet that has the to build a spreadsheet that has the names, addresses, phone numbers, and names, addresses, phone numbers, and names, addresses, phone numbers, and emails of all of these people. We want emails of all of these people. We want emails of all of these people. We want you to then take that spreadsheet and you to then take that spreadsheet and you to then take that spreadsheet and upload it into, upload it into, upload it into, um, say a platform like HubSpot or, um, um, say a platform like HubSpot or, um, um, say a platform like HubSpot or, um, some other customer relationship some other customer relationship some other customer relationship manager, CRM. And then we want you to manager, CRM. And then we want you to manager, CRM. And then we want you to then begin making robo emails or robo

then begin making robo emails or robo then begin making robo emails or robo calls calls calls to those people to begin to qualify to those people to begin to qualify to those people to begin to qualify those leads. And then the people who those leads. And then the people who those leads. And then the people who make it through that qualification make it through that qualification make it through that qualification process, you're going to put in at the process, you're going to put in at the process, you're going to put in at the bottom of the funnel. And then we'll bottom of the funnel. And then we'll bottom of the funnel. And then we'll have human interactions with those have human interactions with those have human interactions with those people. So, people. So, people. So, >> So, that's a lot of work. >> So, that's a lot of work. >> So, that's a lot of work. >> Yeah, that that's like, I mean, we're >> Yeah, that that's like, I mean, we're >> Yeah, that that's like, I mean, we're talking like whole departments worth of talking like whole departments worth of talking like whole departments worth of people, you know, who would be doing, people, you know, who would be doing, people, you know, who would be doing, you know, kind of qualified lead you know, kind of qualified lead you know, kind of qualified lead management or marketing or these management or marketing or these management or marketing or these different kinds of things that either different kinds of things that either different kinds of things that either either those jobs will be eliminated or either those jobs will be eliminated or either those jobs will be eliminated or we won't need as many of them or we just we won't need as many of them or we just we won't need as many of them or we just end up doing business a lot faster than end up doing business a lot faster than end up doing business a lot faster than what we would have before because more what we would have before because more what we would have before because more people end up in the funnel. And that's people end up in the funnel. And that's people end up in the funnel. And that's just one example of, you know, you could just one example of, you know, you could just one example of, you know, you could pick you could go department by pick you could go department by pick you could go department by department of any corporation and department of any corporation and department of any corporation and basically talk through how a gentic AI basically talk through how a gentic AI basically talk through how a gentic AI is going to end up changing their is going to end up changing their is going to end up changing their workflows and it will change the values workflows and it will change the values workflows and it will change the values you'll always have need for humans, but you'll always have need for humans, but you'll always have need for humans, but the values that humans bring to the the values that humans bring to the the values that humans bring to the department that they're in is probably department that they're in is probably department that they're in is probably going to change going to change going to change depending on which department that depending on which department that depending on which department that you're in. Most of that change, though, you're in. Most of that change, though, you're in. Most of that change, though, is probably not here yet, but is is probably not here yet, but is is probably not here yet, but is probably 6, 12, or 18 months, depending probably 6, 12, or 18 months, depending probably 6, 12, or 18 months, depending on where like what kind of department on where like what kind of department on where like what kind of department you work and how tech-forward you work and how tech-forward you work and how tech-forward that place of business is.

that place of business is. that place of business is. >> Oh, that is Okay, so we're going to get >> Oh, that is Okay, so we're going to get >> Oh, that is Okay, so we're going to get there, but right now, so you've really there, but right now, so you've really there, but right now, so you've really set us up well understanding these set us up well understanding these set us up well understanding these different types of AI and kind of ways different types of AI and kind of ways different types of AI and kind of ways we interact with them even now, but so I we interact with them even now, but so I we interact with them even now, but so I want to back up just a little bit and want to back up just a little bit and want to back up just a little bit and you know, we don't want to we we're not you know, we don't want to we we're not you know, we don't want to we we're not fear-based, right? Like we know that God fear-based, right? Like we know that God fear-based, right? Like we know that God is on his throne, sovereign over all is on his throne, sovereign over all is on his throne, sovereign over all things and and the the source of all things and and the the source of all things and and the the source of all wisdom and knowledge. And so I want to wisdom and knowledge. And so I want to wisdom and knowledge. And so I want to talk about some positive ways. I mean, talk about some positive ways. I mean, talk about some positive ways. I mean, there is so much about this that that there is so much about this that that there is so much about this that that really highlights even human ingenuity really highlights even human ingenuity really highlights even human ingenuity and like the creativity that's that's and like the creativity that's that's and like the creativity that's that's part of our image-bearing and part of our image-bearing and part of our image-bearing and there's there's so much so I want to there's there's so much so I want to there's there's so much so I want to talk about some positive uses of AI, talk about some positive uses of AI, talk about some positive uses of AI, especially from a Christian perspective. especially from a Christian perspective. especially from a Christian perspective. Like what are some potential good things Like what are some potential good things Like what are some potential good things that AI can help us with as we think that AI can help us with as we think that AI can help us with as we think about, you know, the kingdom of God and about, you know, the kingdom of God and about, you know, the kingdom of God and the advancement of the gospel. And and the advancement of the gospel. And and the advancement of the gospel. And and what are some ways that that we would we what are some ways that that we would we what are some ways that that we would we would want to embrace this? would want to embrace this? would want to embrace this? >> So let me give a little bit of a >> So let me give a little bit of a >> So let me give a little bit of a theology here, okay? theology here, okay? theology here, okay? So there's two kinds of work.

So there's two kinds of work. So there's two kinds of work. There's toil There's toil There's toil and then there's labor. and then there's labor. and then there's labor. Toil is is the kind of work that's Toil is is the kind of work that's Toil is is the kind of work that's downstream from the fall and a product downstream from the fall and a product downstream from the fall and a product of the curse. And then there's labor, of the curse. And then there's labor, of the curse. And then there's labor, which is part of the cultural mandate which is part of the cultural mandate which is part of the cultural mandate that we have to have dominion and be that we have to have dominion and be that we have to have dominion and be fruitful and subdue the earth. And so AI fruitful and subdue the earth. And so AI fruitful and subdue the earth. And so AI is pretty good at a lot of things that is pretty good at a lot of things that is pretty good at a lot of things that are in that toil category. are in that toil category. are in that toil category. And so And so And so you know, one of the biggest questions you know, one of the biggest questions you know, one of the biggest questions that I ask myself of whether I should that I ask myself of whether I should that I ask myself of whether I should use AI in a particular situation is the use AI in a particular situation is the use AI in a particular situation is the question is the kind of work that I'm question is the kind of work that I'm question is the kind of work that I'm going to ask it to do, is it eliminating going to ask it to do, is it eliminating going to ask it to do, is it eliminating toil or is it eliminating labor? And I'm toil or is it eliminating labor? And I'm toil or is it eliminating labor? And I'm far more inclined to use it if if it's far more inclined to use it if if it's far more inclined to use it if if it's eliminating toil. And so, the first eliminating toil. And so, the first eliminating toil. And so, the first thing I would say that artificial thing I would say that artificial thing I would say that artificial intelligence is good for and should be intelligence is good for and should be intelligence is good for and should be used for is the kinds of things that used for is the kinds of things that used for is the kinds of things that eliminate toil from our work. And so, eliminate toil from our work. And so, eliminate toil from our work. And so, and the zooming out also in still on the and the zooming out also in still on the and the zooming out also in still on the same question, same question, same question, um there's two things that are important um there's two things that are important um there's two things that are important from a theological standpoint of why we from a theological standpoint of why we from a theological standpoint of why we shouldn't be extremely doomer shouldn't be extremely doomer shouldn't be extremely doomer um and completely set against artificial um and completely set against artificial um and completely set against artificial intelligence. The first of those intelligence. The first of those intelligence. The first of those doctrines is the providence of God. And doctrines is the providence of God. And doctrines is the providence of God. And the providence of God being this the providence of God being this the providence of God being this doctrine that says that, you know, God, doctrine that says that, you know, God, doctrine that says that, you know, God, the Trinity, Jesus is in control of

the Trinity, Jesus is in control of the Trinity, Jesus is in control of every single thing throughout um all of every single thing throughout um all of every single thing throughout um all of creation, all of history, all of time, creation, all of history, all of time, creation, all of history, all of time, all of space. God's in control of that. all of space. God's in control of that. all of space. God's in control of that. There's no surprises for him. Artificial There's no surprises for him. Artificial There's no surprises for him. Artificial intelligence is no surprise to him. And intelligence is no surprise to him. And intelligence is no surprise to him. And whatever, you know, whatever happens in whatever, you know, whatever happens in whatever, you know, whatever happens in the future of time is no surprise to the future of time is no surprise to the future of time is no surprise to him. God is author and he is at the, you him. God is author and he is at the, you him. God is author and he is at the, you know, we all believe in Colossians 1 and know, we all believe in Colossians 1 and know, we all believe in Colossians 1 and everything that's there, you know, the everything that's there, you know, the everything that's there, you know, the preeminence of Christ over all of preeminence of Christ over all of preeminence of Christ over all of creation, all of that. The The second creation, all of that. The The second creation, all of that. The The second thing is the doctrine of common grace. thing is the doctrine of common grace. thing is the doctrine of common grace. Um the doctrine of common grace says Um the doctrine of common grace says Um the doctrine of common grace says that, you know, obviously we have grace that, you know, obviously we have grace that, you know, obviously we have grace that's salvific. You know, we need to that's salvific. You know, we need to that's salvific. You know, we need to believe in the life, death, and believe in the life, death, and believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus in order to be a resurrection of Jesus in order to be a resurrection of Jesus in order to be a part uh you know, in order to be part uh you know, in order to be part uh you know, in order to be um um um justified and pronounced righteous and, justified and pronounced righteous and, justified and pronounced righteous and, you know, um be regenerated and and have you know, um be regenerated and and have you know, um be regenerated and and have the Holy Spirit um and be adopted in the Holy Spirit um and be adopted in the Holy Spirit um and be adopted in God's family. But there's also this God's family. But there's also this God's family. But there's also this doctrine of common grace, doctrine of common grace, doctrine of common grace, which states that which states that which states that people who don't possess the Holy Spirit people who don't possess the Holy Spirit people who don't possess the Holy Spirit and who aren't part of and who aren't part of and who aren't part of you know, adopted into God's family, you know, adopted into God's family, you know, adopted into God's family, they can still do things and make things they can still do things and make things they can still do things and make things that accord with truth, goodness, and that accord with truth, goodness, and that accord with truth, goodness, and beauty.

beauty. beauty. And they do And the reason why the And they do And the reason why the And they do And the reason why the doctrine of common grace works is doctrine of common grace works is doctrine of common grace works is because every human it bears the image because every human it bears the image because every human it bears the image of God. And so, this is why people who of God. And so, this is why people who of God. And so, this is why people who don't have the Holy Spirit and who are don't have the Holy Spirit and who are don't have the Holy Spirit and who are pagan can do things and create things pagan can do things and create things pagan can do things and create things that are tremendously beneficial for um that are tremendously beneficial for um that are tremendously beneficial for um for human flourishing, for the promotion for human flourishing, for the promotion for human flourishing, for the promotion of shalom, and they can create things of shalom, and they can create things of shalom, and they can create things they can even um dramatically speed up they can even um dramatically speed up they can even um dramatically speed up the advance of the gospel. And so, the advance of the gospel. And so, the advance of the gospel. And so, there's all sorts of things both from there's all sorts of things both from there's all sorts of things both from you know, a a work standpoint, a home you know, a a work standpoint, a home you know, a a work standpoint, a home standpoint, and from a church and standpoint, and from a church and standpoint, and from a church and ministry standpoint, all sorts of use ministry standpoint, all sorts of use ministry standpoint, all sorts of use cases that would be tremendously helpful cases that would be tremendously helpful cases that would be tremendously helpful for either, you know, for advancing for either, you know, for advancing for either, you know, for advancing truth, goodness, and beauty in each of truth, goodness, and beauty in each of truth, goodness, and beauty in each of those domains. those domains. those domains. And obviously, one of the biggest things And obviously, one of the biggest things And obviously, one of the biggest things that will come from um the technological that will come from um the technological that will come from um the technological advances of artificial intelligence is advances of artificial intelligence is advances of artificial intelligence is going to be the data mining that occurs going to be the data mining that occurs going to be the data mining that occurs through uh electronic health care through uh electronic health care through uh electronic health care records, and they'll be all sorts of records, and they'll be all sorts of records, and they'll be all sorts of ways in which they'll be new ways to ways in which they'll be new ways to ways in which they'll be new ways to attack various cancers, they'll be new attack various cancers, they'll be new attack various cancers, they'll be new ways to look at our genetics and like ways to look at our genetics and like ways to look at our genetics and like see risk factors that we could address see risk factors that we could address see risk factors that we could address much earlier, they'll be ways that we much earlier, they'll be ways that we much earlier, they'll be ways that we can you know, all sorts of diagnostics can you know, all sorts of diagnostics can you know, all sorts of diagnostics that we would only catch after something that we would only catch after something that we would only catch after something went bad or we have these problematic went bad or we have these problematic went bad or we have these problematic symptoms, we're going to be able to symptoms, we're going to be able to symptoms, we're going to be able to catch those things a lot earlier. Now, catch those things a lot earlier. Now, catch those things a lot earlier. Now, there's going to be a whole new a whole there's going to be a whole new a whole there's going to be a whole new a whole new set of bioethical issues that come

new set of bioethical issues that come new set of bioethical issues that come you know, from some of those things and you know, from some of those things and you know, from some of those things and you know, some of those things will be you know, some of those things will be you know, some of those things will be will be good and things that we should will be good and things that we should will be good and things that we should pursue and there'll be other things pursue and there'll be other things pursue and there'll be other things that'll be problematic. But, I think that'll be problematic. But, I think that'll be problematic. But, I think that that that it is not unrealistic to think that even it is not unrealistic to think that even it is not unrealistic to think that even you know, even for for us on the on this you know, even for for us on the on this you know, even for for us on the on this call you know in in our middle age I call you know in in our middle age I call you know in in our middle age I still think that still think that still think that most of us will probably experience a most of us will probably experience a most of us will probably experience a few extra years of our life because of few extra years of our life because of few extra years of our life because of the developments that come from AI the developments that come from AI the developments that come from AI assisted medicine over the next few assisted medicine over the next few assisted medicine over the next few years and so I'm tremendously encouraged years and so I'm tremendously encouraged years and so I'm tremendously encouraged by what will come from that because by what will come from that because by what will come from that because when people live longer we have more when people live longer we have more when people live longer we have more time to be able to communicate the truth time to be able to communicate the truth time to be able to communicate the truth goodness and beauty of the gospel to goodness and beauty of the gospel to goodness and beauty of the gospel to them and so advances in medicine are them and so advances in medicine are them and so advances in medicine are important for advances important for advances important for advances of the church and advances of the of the church and advances of the of the church and advances of the gospel. gospel. gospel. >> That was actually huge for our family >> That was actually huge for our family >> That was actually huge for our family this past fall I've talked about it on this past fall I've talked about it on this past fall I've talked about it on here before my mom got sick and ended up here before my mom got sick and ended up here before my mom got sick and ended up dying but while we were in the hospital dying but while we were in the hospital dying but while we were in the hospital it was so helpful my brother would put it was so helpful my brother would put it was so helpful my brother would put everything the doctors told us into AI everything the doctors told us into AI everything the doctors told us into AI and just it it you don't have a lot of and just it it you don't have a lot of and just it it you don't have a lot of time with the doctor in the room a lot time with the doctor in the room a lot time with the doctor in the room a lot of the time and it just gave us of the time and it just gave us of the time and it just gave us good questions to ask he'd be like what good questions to ask he'd be like what good questions to ask he'd be like what questions should we ask the doctor when questions should we ask the doctor when questions should we ask the doctor when they're in there and it was just super they're in there and it was just super they're in there and it was just super helpful helpful helpful I when I think about a technology like I when I think about a technology like I when I think about a technology like AI I'm always reminded of the movie did AI I'm always reminded of the movie did AI I'm always reminded of the movie did you all see Apollo 13?

you all see Apollo 13? you all see Apollo 13? Back in the day you know this is one of Back in the day you know this is one of Back in the day you know this is one of my favorite my son is literally a rocket my favorite my son is literally a rocket my favorite my son is literally a rocket scientist so we this is a favorite movie scientist so we this is a favorite movie scientist so we this is a favorite movie in our house and we just saw the launch in our house and we just saw the launch in our house and we just saw the launch a few weeks ago of Artemis and a few weeks ago of Artemis and a few weeks ago of Artemis and everything and I think about that what everything and I think about that what everything and I think about that what what strikes me more cuz I used to be a what strikes me more cuz I used to be a what strikes me more cuz I used to be a math teacher is they were doing that math teacher is they were doing that math teacher is they were doing that with slide rulers okay that was the with slide rulers okay that was the with slide rulers okay that was the technology they were using technology they were using technology they were using slide rulers were sending a man to the slide rulers were sending a man to the slide rulers were sending a man to the moon with slide rulers and but then when moon with slide rulers and but then when moon with slide rulers and but then when I was a teacher we used to really limit I was a teacher we used to really limit I was a teacher we used to really limit the use of calculators because we we the use of calculators because we we the use of calculators because we we knew that we needed kids who actually knew that we needed kids who actually knew that we needed kids who actually understood multiplication even though understood multiplication even though understood multiplication even though there was a calculator there to use it, there was a calculator there to use it, there was a calculator there to use it, they they needed to understand actually they they needed to understand actually they they needed to understand actually what multiplication was. They needed to what multiplication was. They needed to what multiplication was. They needed to understand division. So, there were many understand division. So, there were many understand division. So, there were many years in there you didn't like kids use years in there you didn't like kids use years in there you didn't like kids use calculators, and then eventually you let calculators, and then eventually you let calculators, and then eventually you let them use it. So, I want I want to ask them use it. So, I want I want to ask them use it. So, I want I want to ask both of you this question. both of you this question. both of you this question. Where do you let yourself use AI in your Where do you let yourself use AI in your Where do you let yourself use AI in your daily life? What are some of your daily life? What are some of your daily life? What are some of your favorite uses for it? And where do you favorite uses for it? And where do you favorite uses for it? And where do you say, "You know what? I'm not going to say, "You know what? I'm not going to say, "You know what? I'm not going to let myself use it."

let myself use it." let myself use it." I want to make sure I retain my I want to make sure I retain my I want to make sure I retain my thinking. thinking. thinking. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because we we see the studies that come >> Because we we see the studies that come >> Because we we see the studies that come out that we can actually lose certain out that we can actually lose certain out that we can actually lose certain abilities if we don't keep practicing abilities if we don't keep practicing abilities if we don't keep practicing them. And you know, like that's why them. And you know, like that's why them. And you know, like that's why teachers make you do this multiplication teachers make you do this multiplication teachers make you do this multiplication facts all through third grade over and facts all through third grade over and facts all through third grade over and over and over again cuz you do need to over and over again cuz you do need to over and over again cuz you do need to just sometimes know what 7 * 3 is. Yeah, just sometimes know what 7 * 3 is. Yeah, just sometimes know what 7 * 3 is. Yeah, you could pull out a calculator, but we you could pull out a calculator, but we you could pull out a calculator, but we need your brain to work. And so, I want need your brain to work. And so, I want need your brain to work. And so, I want to ask both of you, where do you find it to ask both of you, where do you find it to ask both of you, where do you find it helpful? Where do you guard yourself and helpful? Where do you guard yourself and helpful? Where do you guard yourself and and say, "I'm not going to do that cuz I and say, "I'm not going to do that cuz I and say, "I'm not going to do that cuz I I actually care about my brain and want I actually care about my brain and want I actually care about my brain and want to make sure it still works at some to make sure it still works at some to make sure it still works at some level." level." level." >> Well, I would say it's not just caring >> Well, I would say it's not just caring >> Well, I would say it's not just caring about my brain, it's caring about my you about my brain, it's caring about my you about my brain, it's caring about my you know, my Christian formation, my my know, my Christian formation, my my know, my Christian formation, my my becoming conformed more to the image of becoming conformed more to the image of becoming conformed more to the image of Christ, and and the way that the the Christ, and and the way that the the Christ, and and the way that the the labor that I've been given to me. Like labor that I've been given to me. Like labor that I've been given to me. Like I've never heard that labor toil um I've never heard that labor toil um I've never heard that labor toil um rubric before, but that's really helpful rubric before, but that's really helpful rubric before, but that's really helpful because the labor that we've been given, because the labor that we've been given, because the labor that we've been given, the work that we've been given to do, um the work that we've been given to do, um the work that we've been given to do, um is is actually good for us, too. And so, is is actually good for us, too. And so, is is actually good for us, too. And so, so I don't want to remove that. So, um so I don't want to remove that. So, um so I don't want to remove that. So, um so let's see, what have I used it for?

so let's see, what have I used it for? so let's see, what have I used it for? Well, I I took um a photograph of myself Well, I I took um a photograph of myself Well, I I took um a photograph of myself and I put it in and I said, "Show me and I put it in and I said, "Show me and I put it in and I said, "Show me what I look like with gray hair." And what I look like with gray hair." And what I look like with gray hair." And then I was like, "Show me what I look then I was like, "Show me what I look then I was like, "Show me what I look like with white hair." And then show me like with white hair." And then show me like with white hair." And then show me what I look like, you know, so yeah, so what I look like, you know, so yeah, so what I look like, you know, so yeah, so I definitely wanted to use it for that, I definitely wanted to use it for that, I definitely wanted to use it for that, and I have decided not to go gray as a and I have decided not to go gray as a and I have decided not to go gray as a result of my hair. [laughter] So, [gasps] So, [gasps] um what else? Let's see. Okay, I want to um what else? Let's see. Okay, I want to um what else? Let's see. Okay, I want to post this. I feel like that means in the post this. I feel like that means in the post this. I feel like that means in the No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Absolutely not. No. Oh my word. No. Absolutely not. No. Oh my word. No. Absolutely not. No. Oh my word. Oh my word. Oh my word. Oh my word. Please share with us how much you'd like Please share with us how much you'd like Please share with us how much you'd like to see Courtney with gray and white to see Courtney with gray and white to see Courtney with gray and white hair. my word. It is not It was a little hair. my word. It is not It was a little hair. my word. It is not It was a little shocking. It was a little shocking. But, shocking. It was a little shocking. But, shocking. It was a little shocking. But, um um um I'll share it. I Show me, Courtney. I'll share it. I Show me, Courtney. I'll share it. I Show me, Courtney. You'll share mine is what you'll share. You'll share mine is what you'll share. You'll share mine is what you'll share. I know. That's why [laughter] cuz you're I know. That's why [laughter] cuz you're I know. That's why [laughter] cuz you're not a safe friend. I'm not sharing my not a safe friend. I'm not sharing my not a safe friend. I'm not sharing my whole face. She says I'm not safe. whole face. She says I'm not safe. whole face. She says I'm not safe. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I know. I know. I know. >> I know. I know. I know. >> I know. I know. I know. Oh my gosh. I'll turn around. It'll be Oh my gosh. I'll turn around. It'll be Oh my gosh. I'll turn around. It'll be on It'll be on social media. Um on It'll be on social media. Um on It'll be on social media. Um Okay, so I don't use it for the creation Okay, so I don't use it for the creation Okay, so I don't use it for the creation of content. Like if I'm writing If I'm of content. Like if I'm writing If I'm of content. Like if I'm writing If I'm writing writing writing a Bible study or writing a book or a Bible study or writing a book or a Bible study or writing a book or writing like I don't use it for that writing like I don't use it for that writing like I don't use it for that because I actually need to it it forms because I actually need to it it forms because I actually need to it it forms me as I wrestle with the text or wrestle me as I wrestle with the text or wrestle me as I wrestle with the text or wrestle with um with um with um um you know, the the thought that I'm um you know, the the thought that I'm um you know, the the thought that I'm trying to convey. I have to work it out

trying to convey. I have to work it out trying to convey. I have to work it out because it's working on me, especially because it's working on me, especially because it's working on me, especially when I'm dealing with scripture. when I'm dealing with scripture. when I'm dealing with scripture. Um I did I My daughter Um I did I My daughter Um I did I My daughter One of my daughters is in the middle of One of my daughters is in the middle of One of my daughters is in the middle of um finding roommates. And so, I put I I um finding roommates. And so, I put I I um finding roommates. And so, I put I I asked I mean, I asked ChatGPT. Is that asked I mean, I asked ChatGPT. Is that asked I mean, I asked ChatGPT. Is that not cool anymore? Is it supposed to be not cool anymore? Is it supposed to be not cool anymore? Is it supposed to be another Maybe it's another platform now. another Maybe it's another platform now. another Maybe it's another platform now. >> we're old. >> we're old. >> we're old. >> Yeah. We're I know. I know. I put in >> Yeah. We're I know. I know. I put in >> Yeah. We're I know. I know. I put in what are the best questions to ask, you what are the best questions to ask, you what are the best questions to ask, you know, a potential roommate. And she used know, a potential roommate. And she used know, a potential roommate. And she used some of them. Like they were helpful. Um some of them. Like they were helpful. Um some of them. Like they were helpful. Um so, kind of idea generating sometimes I so, kind of idea generating sometimes I so, kind of idea generating sometimes I think can be can be helpful. But, Mike, think can be can be helpful. But, Mike, think can be can be helpful. But, Mike, I want to hear. I want to hear. I want to hear. I bet you have not put in what you look I bet you have not put in what you look I bet you have not put in what you look like with gray hair. I I imagine that like with gray hair. I I imagine that like with gray hair. I I imagine that that's not something you've done. But, that's not something you've done. But, that's not something you've done. But, you might today. you might today. you might today. >> I don't need your pictures, Courtney. I >> I don't need your pictures, Courtney. I >> I don't need your pictures, Courtney. I can take a picture I have of you and do can take a picture I have of you and do can take a picture I have of you and do doing this. doing this. doing this. You need to stop it. You need to stop it. You need to stop it. >> I don't need you. >> I don't need you. >> I don't need you. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I just was. >> I just was. >> I just was. >> I can do this all of you. >> I can do this all of you. >> I can do this all of you. >> That think Melissa's the nicest of us, >> That think Melissa's the nicest of us, >> That think Melissa's the nicest of us, that she's the nicer out of the two. I that she's the nicer out of the two. I that she's the nicer out of the two. I just want to go on record. She's not.

just want to go on record. She's not. just want to go on record. She's not. >> I'm being nice to our audience. They all >> I'm being nice to our audience. They all >> I'm being nice to our audience. They all want to see you with gray [laughter] want to see you with gray [laughter] want to see you with gray [laughter] hair. I'm just being nice. I'm just hair. I'm just being nice. I'm just hair. I'm just being nice. I'm just giving people what they want. giving people what they want. giving people what they want. >> Yeah, I've I've never put an image of >> Yeah, I've I've never put an image of >> Yeah, I've I've never put an image of myself [laughter] myself [laughter] myself [laughter] into a platform. into a platform. into a platform. Um Um Um >> We're going to make Michael Mickey >> We're going to make Michael Mickey >> We're going to make Michael Mickey Mouse. We're going to make Mickey Mouse. Mouse. We're going to make Mickey Mouse. Mouse. We're going to make Mickey Mouse. >> I may have put like an x-ray or >> I may have put like an x-ray or >> I may have put like an x-ray or something [laughter] something [laughter] something [laughter] in there before. in there before. in there before. Um yeah, okay. So, use cases. So, Um yeah, okay. So, use cases. So, Um yeah, okay. So, use cases. So, um I have a pretty simple grid of how I um I have a pretty simple grid of how I um I have a pretty simple grid of how I think about just about everything, okay? think about just about everything, okay? think about just about everything, okay? So, everything boils down to triangles So, everything boils down to triangles So, everything boils down to triangles for me, okay? And this comes from a for me, okay? And this comes from a for me, okay? And this comes from a theologian who used to be a professor at theologian who used to be a professor at theologian who used to be a professor at RTS Orlando named John Frame. And John RTS Orlando named John Frame. And John RTS Orlando named John Frame. And John Frame has has this thing called tri Frame has has this thing called tri Frame has has this thing called tri perspectivalism and here's how it works. perspectivalism and here's how it works. perspectivalism and here's how it works. It's you know, because humans are made It's you know, because humans are made It's you know, because humans are made in the image of God in the image of God in the image of God and because God is triune, we reflect and because God is triune, we reflect and because God is triune, we reflect his triunity. And what that looks like his triunity. And what that looks like his triunity. And what that looks like is basically thinking in our head, is basically thinking in our head, is basically thinking in our head, feeling in our heart and doing in our feeling in our heart and doing in our feeling in our heart and doing in our hands. So, thinking, feeling and doing, hands. So, thinking, feeling and doing, hands. So, thinking, feeling and doing, head, heart and hands. So, because I'm head, heart and hands. So, because I'm head, heart and hands. So, because I'm I'm made in God's image and because I I'm made in God's image and because I I'm made in God's image and because I use AI, use AI, use AI, AI use cases are largely going to follow AI use cases are largely going to follow AI use cases are largely going to follow in one of those three categories. So, in one of those three categories. So, in one of those three categories. So, I'm going to use AI to help me think, I'm going to use AI to help me think, I'm going to use AI to help me think, I'm going to use AI to help me feel or I'm going to use AI to help me feel or I'm going to use AI to help me feel or I'm going to use AI to help me do. And I'm going to use AI to help me do. And I'm going to use AI to help me do. And so, the first question that I have, you so, the first question that I have, you so, the first question that I have, you know, in terms of, you know, am I going

know, in terms of, you know, am I going know, in terms of, you know, am I going to use AI here and then if so, for what? to use AI here and then if so, for what? to use AI here and then if so, for what? The first question is this labor or is The first question is this labor or is The first question is this labor or is this toil? And then the second question this toil? And then the second question this toil? And then the second question I ask myself is, am I using this for I ask myself is, am I using this for I ask myself is, am I using this for thinking? Am I using this for feeling? thinking? Am I using this for feeling? thinking? Am I using this for feeling? Or am I using this for doing? Or am I using this for doing? Or am I using this for doing? And I would evaluate what you know, how And I would evaluate what you know, how And I would evaluate what you know, how I would use I would use I would use you know, AI for thinking, feeling, and you know, AI for thinking, feeling, and you know, AI for thinking, feeling, and doing very differently. doing very differently. doing very differently. I do not use AI hardly at all for I do not use AI hardly at all for I do not use AI hardly at all for feeling. feeling. feeling. Um using AI for feeling it is I think um Um using AI for feeling it is I think um Um using AI for feeling it is I think um it's dangerous and I don't like using AI it's dangerous and I don't like using AI it's dangerous and I don't like using AI for anything where a in-person for anything where a in-person for anything where a in-person relationship would be um better or relationship would be um better or relationship would be um better or superior or you know, or even a superior or you know, or even a superior or you know, or even a possibility. So, I'm not looking to get possibility. So, I'm not looking to get possibility. So, I'm not looking to get wisdom out of AI because I don't think wisdom out of AI because I don't think wisdom out of AI because I don't think you can get it. You can get facts, you can get it. You can get facts, you can get it. You can get facts, [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] but you can't necessarily get wisdom but you can't necessarily get wisdom but you can't necessarily get wisdom because artificial intelligence lacks because artificial intelligence lacks because artificial intelligence lacks both um embodiment, it lacks both um embodiment, it lacks both um embodiment, it lacks experiences, and it lacks um experiences, and it lacks um experiences, and it lacks um incarnation. And so, um so, from a so, incarnation. And so, um so, from a so, incarnation. And so, um so, from a so, from a feeling standpoint, I don't from a feeling standpoint, I don't from a feeling standpoint, I don't hardly use I don't use it for that at hardly use I don't use it for that at hardly use I don't use it for that at all. I think it's very dangerous to use all. I think it's very dangerous to use all. I think it's very dangerous to use AI to even get relationship advice or AI to even get relationship advice or AI to even get relationship advice or hey, I'm in this conflict or I'm in this hey, I'm in this conflict or I'm in this hey, I'm in this conflict or I'm in this particular parenting situation. I think particular parenting situation. I think particular parenting situation. I think those are things where you really you those are things where you really you those are things where you really you need to resist the shortcut and you need need to resist the shortcut and you need need to resist the shortcut and you need to go to other people who are maybe to go to other people who are maybe to go to other people who are maybe mentors or disciplers and get that

mentors or disciplers and get that mentors or disciplers and get that information there instead. Um information there instead. Um information there instead. Um So, when I'll I'll use AI a lot for So, when I'll I'll use AI a lot for So, when I'll I'll use AI a lot for thinking when I'm trying to think of thinking when I'm trying to think of thinking when I'm trying to think of like like like outlines or where I've already done outlines or where I've already done outlines or where I've already done cognitive work, cognitive work, cognitive work, but I'm looking for and I'll put all the but I'm looking for and I'll put all the but I'm looking for and I'll put all the cognitive work that I've already done cognitive work that I've already done cognitive work that I've already done for that thinking in and I'll ask for that thinking in and I'll ask for that thinking in and I'll ask something to the effect of what else something to the effect of what else something to the effect of what else should I be considering here? should I be considering here? should I be considering here? Or you know, or do you have a better way Or you know, or do you have a better way Or you know, or do you have a better way of organizing this? of organizing this? of organizing this? Um so, that way I'm not short-cutting Um so, that way I'm not short-cutting Um so, that way I'm not short-cutting the the the you know, the kind of cognitive work and you know, the kind of cognitive work and you know, the kind of cognitive work and the kind you know, cuz it's like people the kind you know, cuz it's like people the kind you know, cuz it's like people don't I'm not hired by the Gospel don't I'm not hired by the Gospel don't I'm not hired by the Gospel Coalition so that I can just offload my Coalition so that I can just offload my Coalition so that I can just offload my work into an AI platform. I've been work into an AI platform. I've been work into an AI platform. I've been hired here because I have a set of hired here because I have a set of hired here because I have a set of experiences and character and wisdom experiences and character and wisdom experiences and character and wisdom that that that are sought to be utilized by by that by are sought to be utilized by by that by are sought to be utilized by by that by that ministry for the for the role that that ministry for the for the role that that ministry for the for the role that I'm in. And so, I don't want to be using I'm in. And so, I don't want to be using I'm in. And so, I don't want to be using artificial you like like I mean artificial you like like I mean artificial you like like I mean what is the point of even hiring what is the point of even hiring what is the point of even hiring somebody if all they're going to do is somebody if all they're going to do is somebody if all they're going to do is take their work and put it into an AI take their work and put it into an AI take their work and put it into an AI platform. And then platform. And then platform. And then on the doing side of things on the doing side of things on the doing side of things it depends on what the you know, what it depends on what the you know, what it depends on what the you know, what the use case is. You know, if it's work the use case is. You know, if it's work the use case is. You know, if it's work doing stuff, well, the first question doing stuff, well, the first question doing stuff, well, the first question that I have is when I'm given a task by

that I have is when I'm given a task by that I have is when I'm given a task by somebody else, are they expecting me to somebody else, are they expecting me to somebody else, are they expecting me to bring all of the wisdom and knowledge bring all of the wisdom and knowledge bring all of the wisdom and knowledge and insight that I have in my embodied and insight that I have in my embodied and insight that I have in my embodied person to this to this project to this person to this to this project to this person to this to this project to this task to this question task to this question task to this question or are they looking to or are they looking to or are they looking to are they wanting me for like my prompt are they wanting me for like my prompt are they wanting me for like my prompt engineering skills? And I think more engineering skills? And I think more engineering skills? And I think more often than not what they want is no, I often than not what they want is no, I often than not what they want is no, I want to know what you think. And so want to know what you think. And so want to know what you think. And so I think it's important in our work that I think it's important in our work that I think it's important in our work that anytime we use artificial intelligence anytime we use artificial intelligence anytime we use artificial intelligence for anything that we need to have total for anything that we need to have total for anything that we need to have total and complete transparency of like, hey, and complete transparency of like, hey, and complete transparency of like, hey, here's this report. This particular here's this report. This particular here's this report. This particular section right here, I used this section right here, I used this section right here, I used this particular platform in this particular particular platform in this particular particular platform in this particular way. way. way. Here's why I used it for these reasons Here's why I used it for these reasons Here's why I used it for these reasons and it produced the you know, these and it produced the you know, these and it produced the you know, these things. I think transparency in that is things. I think transparency in that is things. I think transparency in that is important because I think as as time important because I think as as time important because I think as as time goes forward um goes forward um goes forward um the one of the most important things the one of the most important things the one of the most important things that we have is trust and so you know that we have is trust and so you know that we have is trust and so you know you don't you don't you don't it it has never been easier to burn it it has never been easier to burn it it has never been easier to burn trust than today especially in the trust than today especially in the trust than today especially in the workplace or in the church and so if you workplace or in the church and so if you workplace or in the church and so if you begin offloading things onto these begin offloading things onto these begin offloading things onto these platforms and you're lacking platforms and you're lacking platforms and you're lacking transparency on them um this is a very transparency on them um this is a very transparency on them um this is a very quick way to burn trust especially if quick way to burn trust especially if quick way to burn trust especially if you're young and let's say you have a you're young and let's say you have a you're young and let's say you have a co-worker you know who maybe is less co-worker you know who maybe is less co-worker you know who maybe is less experienced with AI and they they're not

experienced with AI and they they're not experienced with AI and they they're not as fine-tuned to like see it know it as fine-tuned to like see it know it as fine-tuned to like see it know it when they see it like well when they see it like well when they see it like well a young co-worker who's interacting with a young co-worker who's interacting with a young co-worker who's interacting with an older co-worker who's you know an older co-worker who's you know an older co-worker who's you know outsourced some particular task to say outsourced some particular task to say outsourced some particular task to say chat GPT and copied and pasted it I mean chat GPT and copied and pasted it I mean chat GPT and copied and pasted it I mean this is a very quick way for the older this is a very quick way for the older this is a very quick way for the older person to completely destroy trust in person to completely destroy trust in person to completely destroy trust in the work environment or in a relational the work environment or in a relational the work environment or in a relational environment with the younger person environment with the younger person environment with the younger person especially if there's a lack of especially if there's a lack of especially if there's a lack of transparency on you know on what's been transparency on you know on what's been transparency on you know on what's been done so there's a lot of landmines that done so there's a lot of landmines that done so there's a lot of landmines that are that are new and evolving and are that are new and evolving and are that are new and evolving and definitely things to be you know to be definitely things to be you know to be definitely things to be you know to be you know to be mindful of you know to be mindful of you know to be mindful of >> well as we're talking about that so >> well as we're talking about that so >> well as we're talking about that so you've kind of alluded to this but I you've kind of alluded to this but I you've kind of alluded to this but I want to just make sure I ask you really want to just make sure I ask you really want to just make sure I ask you really explicitly cuz I think it's a I think explicitly cuz I think it's a I think explicitly cuz I think it's a I think it's an important thing so as as most it's an important thing so as as most it's an important thing so as as most people that I hear talking about AI kind people that I hear talking about AI kind people that I hear talking about AI kind of the of the of the the leading concern seems to be like the leading concern seems to be like the leading concern seems to be like this prospective job loss like that this prospective job loss like that this prospective job loss like that seems to be kind of the they're going to seems to be kind of the they're going to seems to be kind of the they're going to take AI's going to take all of our jobs take AI's going to take all of our jobs take AI's going to take all of our jobs and you've already touched on that a and you've already touched on that a and you've already touched on that a little bit but but do you actually think little bit but but do you actually think little bit but but do you actually think that's the that's the that's the that should be the main concern like that should be the main concern like that should be the main concern like we've already said like AI has some we've already said like AI has some we've already said like AI has some beautiful benefits and and some some beautiful benefits and and some some beautiful benefits and and some some really fun uses. Like there's a lot of really fun uses. Like there's a lot of really fun uses. Like there's a lot of ways we can use it in in redemptive ways ways we can use it in in redemptive ways ways we can use it in in redemptive ways and and helpful ways and ways that we and and helpful ways and ways that we and and helpful ways and ways that we should kind of learn to press in. I love

should kind of learn to press in. I love should kind of learn to press in. I love thinking about head heart hands and you thinking about head heart hands and you thinking about head heart hands and you know, saying we're going to stay away know, saying we're going to stay away know, saying we're going to stay away from heart wisdom issues. But but if from heart wisdom issues. But but if from heart wisdom issues. But but if we're going to address some of the we're going to address some of the we're going to address some of the concerns, too, because they are there concerns, too, because they are there concerns, too, because they are there are concerns. Do you do you really are concerns. Do you do you really are concerns. Do you do you really identify job loss as something that identify job loss as something that identify job loss as something that should be one of our leading concerns or should be one of our leading concerns or should be one of our leading concerns or or would you locate that somewhere else? or would you locate that somewhere else? or would you locate that somewhere else? >> So, the three biggest concerns that I >> So, the three biggest concerns that I >> So, the three biggest concerns that I have, job loss is one of those three have, job loss is one of those three have, job loss is one of those three things. things. things. Um, a second issue is humans going from Um, a second issue is humans going from Um, a second issue is humans going from learning primarily through primary learning primarily through primary learning primarily through primary sources. So, reading books, sources. So, reading books, sources. So, reading books, um, hearing directly from a teacher, um, um, hearing directly from a teacher, um, um, hearing directly from a teacher, um, to secondary resources where those kinds to secondary resources where those kinds to secondary resources where those kinds of things a model has been trained on of things a model has been trained on of things a model has been trained on it. it. it. But it's going to give you a But it's going to give you a But it's going to give you a regurgitated regurgitated regurgitated version of it it's it's crunched on a version of it it's it's crunched on a version of it it's it's crunched on a lot of primary sources, but it's giving lot of primary sources, but it's giving lot of primary sources, but it's giving you secondary source material. So, I I you secondary source material. So, I I you secondary source material. So, I I have concerns about how that is going to have concerns about how that is going to have concerns about how that is going to go for you know, the human race.

go for you know, the human race. go for you know, the human race. The third thing The third thing The third thing the third concern I have is for the third concern I have is for the third concern I have is for children. children. children. Um, so, you know, we're all adults and Um, so, you know, we're all adults and Um, so, you know, we're all adults and we've all you know, and we've only been we've all you know, and we've only been we've all you know, and we've only been playing around with this thing for like playing around with this thing for like playing around with this thing for like 6 12 18 months, you know, by and large 6 12 18 months, you know, by and large 6 12 18 months, you know, by and large as a culture and society and we're as a culture and society and we're as a culture and society and we're already seeing some of the cognitive already seeing some of the cognitive already seeing some of the cognitive decline, some of the you know, some of decline, some of the you know, some of decline, some of the you know, some of the weaknesses of you know, overuse of the weaknesses of you know, overuse of the weaknesses of you know, overuse of these tools and our brains are fully these tools and our brains are fully these tools and our brains are fully developed. developed. developed. And I think that um And I think that um And I think that um when we're talking about children, you when we're talking about children, you when we're talking about children, you know, we've we just went through know, we've we just went through know, we've we just went through this whole season where this whole season where this whole season where people born somewhere between, you know, people born somewhere between, you know, people born somewhere between, you know, 2000 and 2012, they're starting to turn 2000 and 2012, they're starting to turn 2000 and 2012, they're starting to turn adults. They've been adults for a few adults. They've been adults for a few adults. They've been adults for a few years. And you know, Gen Z has really years. And you know, Gen Z has really years. And you know, Gen Z has really been through a lot. You know, 9/11 been through a lot. You know, 9/11 been through a lot. You know, 9/11 happened, you know, you know, on or, you happened, you know, you know, on or, you happened, you know, you know, on or, you know, close before their birth. You had know, close before their birth. You had know, close before their birth. You had the you subprime mortgage collapse, the the you subprime mortgage collapse, the the you subprime mortgage collapse, the great financial collapse, you know, great financial collapse, you know, great financial collapse, you know, Occupy Wall Street, all that stuff. And Occupy Wall Street, all that stuff. And Occupy Wall Street, all that stuff. And then you had the creation of the then you had the creation of the then you had the creation of the smartphone, the creation of social smartphone, the creation of social smartphone, the creation of social media, algorithms everywhere. And now media, algorithms everywhere. And now media, algorithms everywhere. And now we're in the season where the rates of we're in the season where the rates of we're in the season where the rates of anxiety, depression, loneliness, and anxiety, depression, loneliness, and anxiety, depression, loneliness, and suicidal thoughts or suicidal ideation suicidal thoughts or suicidal ideation suicidal thoughts or suicidal ideation is dramatically higher for Gen Z, is dramatically higher for Gen Z, is dramatically higher for Gen Z, especially Gen Z women, especially Gen Z women, especially Gen Z women, um as we zoom out at the data. And so um as we zoom out at the data. And so um as we zoom out at the data. And so that whole dynamic is because you had that whole dynamic is because you had that whole dynamic is because you had technology and social media, social technology and social media, social technology and social media, social media algorithms that had people going

media algorithms that had people going media algorithms that had people going down rabbit holes. And so down rabbit holes. And so down rabbit holes. And so maybe, you know, maybe you're a you're maybe, you know, maybe you're a you're maybe, you know, maybe you're a you're you're 19 years old and you just you you're 19 years old and you just you you're 19 years old and you just you were searching for you're on Instagram were searching for you're on Instagram were searching for you're on Instagram and you're searching for like um workout and you're searching for like um workout and you're searching for like um workout tips and health tips. And before you tips and health tips. And before you tips and health tips. And before you know it of going, you know, down this, know it of going, you know, down this, know it of going, you know, down this, now this algorithm is showing you people now this algorithm is showing you people now this algorithm is showing you people who have some kind of um who have some kind of um who have some kind of um uh maybe eating disorder, these uh maybe eating disorder, these uh maybe eating disorder, these different kinds of things. And it's different kinds of things. And it's different kinds of things. And it's showing you all of this kind of content. showing you all of this kind of content. showing you all of this kind of content. And you had no interest in all of that. And you had no interest in all of that. And you had no interest in all of that. But now, you know, in in in the path of But now, you know, in in in the path of But now, you know, in in in the path of doing that is is so subconscious that doing that is is so subconscious that doing that is is so subconscious that maybe, you know, the frog in the kettle, maybe, you know, the frog in the kettle, maybe, you know, the frog in the kettle, you're not really even noticing that you're not really even noticing that you're not really even noticing that this is happening. And and and and this this is happening. And and and and this this is happening. And and and and this is beginning to affect your psyche and is beginning to affect your psyche and is beginning to affect your psyche and your sense of self-worth and your sense your sense of self-worth and your sense your sense of self-worth and your sense of self. And so now we have an entire of self. And so now we have an entire of self. And so now we have an entire generation of people who are anxious and generation of people who are anxious and generation of people who are anxious and nervous and self-conscious and they're nervous and self-conscious and they're nervous and self-conscious and they're wrestling with, you know, this sense of wrestling with, you know, this sense of wrestling with, you know, this sense of self-worth. And so self-worth. And so self-worth. And so the technology that's beneath, you know, the technology that's beneath, you know, the technology that's beneath, you know, the meta or Instagram algorithm is a the meta or Instagram algorithm is a the meta or Instagram algorithm is a very rudimentary form of artificial very rudimentary form of artificial very rudimentary form of artificial intelligence. What we have now is a far intelligence. What we have now is a far intelligence. What we have now is a far more, um, more, um, more, um, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> like, infinitely more powerful version >> like, infinitely more powerful version >> like, infinitely more powerful version of the same technology. And so, the of the same technology. And so, the of the same technology. And so, the propensity for, like, if we think the propensity for, like, if we think the propensity for, like, if we think the experiment that was run on Gen Z, um, experiment that was run on Gen Z, um, experiment that was run on Gen Z, um, with social media and smartphones went with social media and smartphones went with social media and smartphones went south, south, south, how these technologies could go south

how these technologies could go south how these technologies could go south with artificial intelligence, with a far with artificial intelligence, with a far with artificial intelligence, with a far more technology, a far more, like, more technology, a far more, like, more technology, a far more, like, advanced technology beneath it could go, advanced technology beneath it could go, advanced technology beneath it could go, it is really quite, um, is really quite it is really quite, um, is really quite it is really quite, um, is really quite concerning. So, I think that there needs concerning. So, I think that there needs concerning. So, I think that there needs to be, um, a number of different ways to be, um, a number of different ways to be, um, a number of different ways and parental controls, and, you know, and parental controls, and, you know, and parental controls, and, you know, children shouldn't be getting the same children shouldn't be getting the same children shouldn't be getting the same version, you know, there there should version, you know, there there should version, you know, there there should be, just like you got kids versions of be, just like you got kids versions of be, just like you got kids versions of Netflix and these kinds of things, you Netflix and these kinds of things, you Netflix and these kinds of things, you got to have kids versions of these got to have kids versions of these got to have kids versions of these things that are that are much smaller things that are that are much smaller things that are that are much smaller sandboxes. Parents need to be given the sandboxes. Parents need to be given the sandboxes. Parents need to be given the ability to control the size of that ability to control the size of that ability to control the size of that sandbox. sandbox. sandbox. Um, there should be all sorts of things Um, there should be all sorts of things Um, there should be all sorts of things that, like, you know, kids shouldn't be that, like, you know, kids shouldn't be that, like, you know, kids shouldn't be able to have, like, you know, hours and able to have, like, you know, hours and able to have, like, you know, hours and hours worth of conversation back and hours worth of conversation back and hours worth of conversation back and forth with with those platforms. But, forth with with those platforms. But, forth with with those platforms. But, going back to your question about jobs, going back to your question about jobs, going back to your question about jobs, Courtney, it's going to depend on the Courtney, it's going to depend on the Courtney, it's going to depend on the sector that you're in. So, if you're in sector that you're in. So, if you're in sector that you're in. So, if you're in a sector that is in words, numbers, a sector that is in words, numbers, a sector that is in words, numbers, images, or video, then there's probably images, or video, then there's probably images, or video, then there's probably going to be some kind of evolution or going to be some kind of evolution or going to be some kind of evolution or disruption in your work. And that disruption in your work. And that disruption in your work. And that doesn't mean that you're obsolete. It doesn't mean that you're obsolete. It doesn't mean that you're obsolete. It just means that the value that you bring just means that the value that you bring just means that the value that you bring to your work is probably going to change to your work is probably going to change to your work is probably going to change from what it is right now in your job from what it is right now in your job from what it is right now in your job description for what it will be in the description for what it will be in the description for what it will be in the future. And so, in I don't think this future. And so, in I don't think this future. And so, in I don't think this should necessarily be an should necessarily be an should necessarily be an anxiety-inducing, anxiety-inducing, anxiety-inducing, but what it should be is it should spur but what it should be is it should spur but what it should be is it should spur us to two things. There's two things us to two things. There's two things us to two things. There's two things that we need to be cultivating in this

that we need to be cultivating in this that we need to be cultivating in this new era. The first is wisdom and virtue. new era. The first is wisdom and virtue. new era. The first is wisdom and virtue. And the second is And the second is And the second is learning new skills. And so for a long learning new skills. And so for a long learning new skills. And so for a long time the workplace promoted and time the workplace promoted and time the workplace promoted and was very fertile soil for people who was very fertile soil for people who was very fertile soil for people who were specialists. Think about the people were specialists. Think about the people were specialists. Think about the people who make the most money historically. who make the most money historically. who make the most money historically. It's specialists. It's doctors, lawyers, It's specialists. It's doctors, lawyers, It's specialists. It's doctors, lawyers, people who you know, who have a very people who you know, who have a very people who you know, who have a very specialized skill set. But I believe specialized skill set. But I believe specialized skill set. But I believe that in probably in the future of that in probably in the future of that in probably in the future of artificial intelligence, people who artificial intelligence, people who artificial intelligence, people who develop a more broad skill set, who end develop a more broad skill set, who end develop a more broad skill set, who end up being taking on generalist type up being taking on generalist type up being taking on generalist type skills, and who can synthesize and put skills, and who can synthesize and put skills, and who can synthesize and put together lots of different things together lots of different things together lots of different things between different departments, between between different departments, between between different departments, between different skills, I think those people different skills, I think those people different skills, I think those people will probably end up doing better. So I will probably end up doing better. So I will probably end up doing better. So I think, you know, in the history of work, think, you know, in the history of work, think, you know, in the history of work, well, you know, the western world will well, you know, the western world will well, you know, the western world will go from a specialized go from a specialized go from a specialized world to more of a generalized world. I world to more of a generalized world. I world to more of a generalized world. I think also it's important think also it's important think also it's important to keep up with what's going on with the to keep up with what's going on with the to keep up with what's going on with the technologies, technologies, technologies, learn some, you know, learn some tools, learn some, you know, learn some tools, learn some, you know, learn some tools, you know, keep up to speed, you know, you know, keep up to speed, you know, you know, keep up to speed, you know, with those things. But you've got to do with those things. But you've got to do with those things. But you've got to do that all in balance with, you know, we that all in balance with, you know, we that all in balance with, you know, we all have other responsibilities, you all have other responsibilities, you all have other responsibilities, you know, to family and if we have children know, to family and if we have children know, to family and if we have children or or or friendships, you know, church body life,

friendships, you know, church body life, friendships, you know, church body life, our work. So I I think we have to keep our work. So I I think we have to keep our work. So I I think we have to keep all that stuff in perspective and not all that stuff in perspective and not all that stuff in perspective and not just we can't just worship efficiency, just we can't just worship efficiency, just we can't just worship efficiency, we can't worship productivity. We can't we can't worship productivity. We can't we can't worship productivity. We can't worship all of these, you know, the AI worship all of these, you know, the AI worship all of these, you know, the AI era just gives us a whole new pantheon era just gives us a whole new pantheon era just gives us a whole new pantheon of new idols um, that we can worship. So of new idols um, that we can worship. So of new idols um, that we can worship. So we have to be careful about that. we have to be careful about that. we have to be careful about that. >> One thing that you just said that I >> One thing that you just said that I >> One thing that you just said that I think is really important, um, and I think is really important, um, and I think is really important, um, and I believe there's a book called Mindset believe there's a book called Mindset believe there's a book called Mindset that I read years ago when I was raising that I read years ago when I was raising that I read years ago when I was raising kids and it talked about the difference kids and it talked about the difference kids and it talked about the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed between a growth mindset and a fixed between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. And, um, basically a lot of mindset. And, um, basically a lot of mindset. And, um, basically a lot of people have a very fixed mindset. You people have a very fixed mindset. You people have a very fixed mindset. You know, I I majored in this subject, know, I I majored in this subject, know, I I majored in this subject, that's what I can do. I'm not going to that's what I can do. I'm not going to that's what I can do. I'm not going to learn or grow from there. And I do think learn or grow from there. And I do think learn or grow from there. And I do think we're entering, um, a season of just we're entering, um, a season of just we're entering, um, a season of just life where that's not going to be life where that's not going to be life where that's not going to be enough. We're all going to have to kind enough. We're all going to have to kind enough. We're all going to have to kind of develop that growth mindset. And it's of develop that growth mindset. And it's of develop that growth mindset. And it's really good with our kids to be doing really good with our kids to be doing really good with our kids to be doing that. It's you know, play a sport you're that. It's you know, play a sport you're that. It's you know, play a sport you're average at. Learn get better at it. You average at. Learn get better at it. You average at. Learn get better at it. You know, we we kind of can know, we we kind of can know, we we kind of can even when you think about that with our even when you think about that with our even when you think about that with our kids now, we can specialize them at like kids now, we can specialize them at like kids now, we can specialize them at like five and be like, "No, your sport's five and be like, "No, your sport's five and be like, "No, your sport's baseball." Hm, maybe not maybe maybe baseball." Hm, maybe not maybe maybe baseball." Hm, maybe not maybe maybe maybe wait till they're 14 to do that.

maybe wait till they're 14 to do that. maybe wait till they're 14 to do that. You know, just practically. So, You know, just practically. So, You know, just practically. So, so that there are some, you know, so that there are some, you know, so that there are some, you know, learning can take place. Well, I want to learning can take place. Well, I want to learning can take place. Well, I want to jump into the AI Benchmark, but first we jump into the AI Benchmark, but first we jump into the AI Benchmark, but first we are going to hear from our sponsors are going to hear from our sponsors are going to hear from our sponsors before we do that. So, let's let's hear before we do that. So, let's let's hear before we do that. So, let's let's hear that and then we'll be right back cuz we that and then we'll be right back cuz we that and then we'll be right back cuz we want to talk with Michael about the AI want to talk with Michael about the AI want to talk with Michael about the AI Benchmark that TGC has been working on Benchmark that TGC has been working on Benchmark that TGC has been working on and he's been really developmental in and he's been really developmental in and he's been really developmental in that. So, but first let's hear from our that. So, but first let's hear from our that. So, but first let's hear from our sponsor. >> This episode of The Deep Dish is brought >> This episode of The Deep Dish is brought to you [music] by Cozy Earth. And to you [music] by Cozy Earth. And to you [music] by Cozy Earth. And Melissa, you and I have become Melissa, you and I have become Melissa, you and I have become borderline obsessed with [music] with borderline obsessed with [music] with borderline obsessed with [music] with all things Cozy Earth. Their sheets, all things Cozy Earth. Their sheets, all things Cozy Earth. Their sheets, their pajamas, their robes. But now their pajamas, their robes. But now their pajamas, their robes. But now there is a new [music] outfit. there is a new [music] outfit. there is a new [music] outfit. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> And I'm pretty excited about this one >> And I'm pretty excited about this one >> And I'm pretty excited about this one because somehow it's what you can wear, because somehow it's what you can wear, because somehow it's what you can wear, um, um, um, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> all day long and if you even want to >> all day long and if you even want to >> all day long and if you even want to wear it at night to bed, you probably wear it at night to bed, you probably wear it at night to bed, you probably could. But it's great for morning could. But it's great for morning could. But it's great for morning coffee, school pick up, different coffee, school pick up, different coffee, school pick up, different errands. It's so cute. Tell us a little errands. It's so cute. Tell us a little errands. It's so cute. Tell us a little bit more about it.

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Welcome back everyone. Um this has been Welcome back everyone. Um this has been such a great conversation. Michael, such a great conversation. Michael, such a great conversation. Michael, thank you just for walking us through thank you just for walking us through thank you just for walking us through all of the different types of AI and all of the different types of AI and all of the different types of AI and just what we're looking at. Um one thing just what we're looking at. Um one thing just what we're looking at. Um one thing TGC's been working on is an AI benchmark TGC's been working on is an AI benchmark TGC's been working on is an AI benchmark project. Can you, you know, just project. Can you, you know, just project. Can you, you know, just quickly explain to us what that is and quickly explain to us what that is and quickly explain to us what that is and what we were trying to accomplish with what we were trying to accomplish with what we were trying to accomplish with that project here at TGC? that project here at TGC? that project here at TGC? >> Yeah, so the AI Christian benchmark at >> Yeah, so the AI Christian benchmark at >> Yeah, so the AI Christian benchmark at the most basic level is basically us the most basic level is basically us the most basic level is basically us testing AI to see how theologically testing AI to see how theologically testing AI to see how theologically reliable the different platforms are. So reliable the different platforms are. So reliable the different platforms are. So let's fast forward to 2028, a couple let's fast forward to 2028, a couple let's fast forward to 2028, a couple years. Imagine 50% of um all searches years. Imagine 50% of um all searches years. Imagine 50% of um all searches that happen are no longer happening on that happen are no longer happening on that happen are no longer happening on Google, but instead they're happening Google, but instead they're happening Google, but instead they're happening inside of large language models like inside of large language models like inside of large language models like ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, these kinds of ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, these kinds of ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, these kinds of things. So things. So things. So it's important for us to see, well, in it's important for us to see, well, in it's important for us to see, well, in the past, on a Google search, if I put the past, on a Google search, if I put the past, on a Google search, if I put in a Google search, then 10 blue links in a Google search, then 10 blue links in a Google search, then 10 blue links come up, I might click on three of them, come up, I might click on three of them, come up, I might click on three of them, and I'm reading primary sources.

and I'm reading primary sources. and I'm reading primary sources. Okay? You still with me? Now, if I go to Okay? You still with me? Now, if I go to Okay? You still with me? Now, if I go to the large language model and I ask the the large language model and I ask the the large language model and I ask the same question, I'm no longer reading same question, I'm no longer reading same question, I'm no longer reading primary sources. primary sources. primary sources. I'm reading a synthesis of all sorts of I'm reading a synthesis of all sorts of I'm reading a synthesis of all sorts of stuff, you know, that that model has stuff, you know, that that model has stuff, you know, that that model has been trained on, which may include the been trained on, which may include the been trained on, which may include the three links that I would have clicked on three links that I would have clicked on three links that I would have clicked on on a Google search, but probably on a Google search, but probably on a Google search, but probably included all sorts of other stuff, like, included all sorts of other stuff, like, included all sorts of other stuff, like, you know, maybe stuff from the Mormons you know, maybe stuff from the Mormons you know, maybe stuff from the Mormons or the Baha'i or, you know, this thing or the Baha'i or, you know, this thing or the Baha'i or, you know, this thing or that thing. All of that is train, you or that thing. All of that is train, you or that thing. All of that is train, you know, is is inside those models. And so, know, is is inside those models. And so, know, is is inside those models. And so, >> interject one thing as you're saying >> interject one thing as you're saying >> interject one thing as you're saying that, just because I know it helps me to that, just because I know it helps me to that, just because I know it helps me to think. So, what you're saying is in the think. So, what you're saying is in the think. So, what you're saying is in the original, you know, the way we used to original, you know, the way we used to original, you know, the way we used to do it with Google, I would if I asked a do it with Google, I would if I asked a do it with Google, I would if I asked a theological question, you know, who is theological question, you know, who is theological question, you know, who is God, and I'm scrolling through and I'm God, and I'm scrolling through and I'm God, and I'm scrolling through and I'm choosing what links I click on. I'm choosing what links I click on. I'm choosing what links I click on. I'm going to choose Desiring God, and I'm going to choose Desiring God, and I'm going to choose Desiring God, and I'm going to skip over, um, going to skip over, um, going to skip over, um, you know, I'm going to skip over the, you know, I'm going to skip over the, you know, I'm going to skip over the, um, well, like the Mormon Church um, well, like the Mormon Church um, well, like the Mormon Church definition of that. I'm going to I'm definition of that. I'm going to I'm definition of that. I'm going to I'm going to I am going to have agency in going to I am going to have agency in going to I am going to have agency in selecting what voices I'm listening to, selecting what voices I'm listening to, selecting what voices I'm listening to, and then I get to read the people on and then I get to read the people on and then I get to read the people on those sources that are writing about it those sources that are writing about it those sources that are writing about it and make my own decisions. But what and make my own decisions. But what and make my own decisions. But what you're saying with AI is they just grab you're saying with AI is they just grab you're saying with AI is they just grab information from wherever they can grab information from wherever they can grab information from wherever they can grab it, and then they feed you the it, and then they feed you the it, and then they feed you the information, and you don't know where information, and you don't know where information, and you don't know where what's what links they clicked on, what's what links they clicked on, what's what links they clicked on, right? That's what you're That's what right? That's what you're That's what right? That's what you're That's what you're saying. Sorry to interrupt. I you're saying. Sorry to interrupt. I you're saying. Sorry to interrupt. I just want to make sure everybody's just want to make sure everybody's just want to make sure everybody's tracking with us as we, um, because I tracking with us as we, um, because I tracking with us as we, um, because I think this is so important.

think this is so important. think this is so important. >> That's right. You know, sometimes it >> That's right. You know, sometimes it >> That's right. You know, sometimes it depends on the platform. Sometimes the depends on the platform. Sometimes the depends on the platform. Sometimes the platforms, when they have a particular platforms, when they have a particular platforms, when they have a particular statement, maybe there'll be a really, statement, maybe there'll be a really, statement, maybe there'll be a really, really tiny link of like, "Hey, we got really tiny link of like, "Hey, we got really tiny link of like, "Hey, we got we sourced this from here, but it's not we sourced this from here, but it's not we sourced this from here, but it's not like it really isn't like the Google like it really isn't like the Google like it really isn't like the Google era. And so era. And so era. And so So, it's important for us in an ongoing So, it's important for us in an ongoing So, it's important for us in an ongoing fashion fashion fashion to ask hard questions back of artificial to ask hard questions back of artificial to ask hard questions back of artificial intelligence. In other words, are you intelligence. In other words, are you intelligence. In other words, are you giving me answers that are theologically giving me answers that are theologically giving me answers that are theologically reliable? reliable? reliable? And when I ask you ethical questions, And when I ask you ethical questions, And when I ask you ethical questions, are you going to give me answers that are you going to give me answers that are you going to give me answers that are in accordance with God's word? You are in accordance with God's word? You are in accordance with God's word? You know, when we ask questions about the know, when we ask questions about the know, when we ask questions about the Bible, are you know, are you going to Bible, are you know, are you going to Bible, are you know, are you going to give me accurate understandings of those give me accurate understandings of those give me accurate understandings of those things? And so, in our original things? And so, in our original things? And so, in our original benchmark, what we did is we tested the benchmark, what we did is we tested the benchmark, what we did is we tested the top seven the the top seven platforms top seven the the top seven platforms top seven the the top seven platforms that were most frequently used with that were most frequently used with that were most frequently used with seven of the top questions that people seven of the top questions that people seven of the top questions that people had historically Googled about had historically Googled about had historically Googled about Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. Which were things like um did Jesus Which were things like um did Jesus Which were things like um did Jesus raise from the dead? What is the gospel?

raise from the dead? What is the gospel? raise from the dead? What is the gospel? Um Um Um is the Bible reliable? is the Bible reliable? is the Bible reliable? And you know, kind of questions that And you know, kind of questions that And you know, kind of questions that kind of get at basic Nicene Creed level kind of get at basic Nicene Creed level kind of get at basic Nicene Creed level Christianity. And so Christianity. And so Christianity. And so um when we when we tested those um when we when we tested those um when we when we tested those platforms, uh we didn't think that we platforms, uh we didn't think that we platforms, uh we didn't think that we would get a very wide variation of would get a very wide variation of would get a very wide variation of theological reliability. We thought we theological reliability. We thought we theological reliability. We thought we would get middle of the road theological would get middle of the road theological would get middle of the road theological reliability from most of the platforms. reliability from most of the platforms. reliability from most of the platforms. And none did very well, um but some did And none did very well, um but some did And none did very well, um but some did very bad. And the reason why some of very bad. And the reason why some of very bad. And the reason why some of them did very bad is because of two them did very bad is because of two them did very bad is because of two things. Um this is a little technical, things. Um this is a little technical, things. Um this is a little technical, but I'll try to explain everything that but I'll try to explain everything that but I'll try to explain everything that I have to say. The first is And if you I have to say. The first is And if you I have to say. The first is And if you want to read the report, you can just go want to read the report, you can just go want to read the report, you can just go to um to um to um Yeah, you you'll be in the show Yeah, you you'll be in the show Yeah, you you'll be in the show notes, but it's just notes, but it's just notes, but it's just christianbenchmark.ai. christianbenchmark.ai. christianbenchmark.ai. Christianbenchmark.ai. Okay. So, the two Christianbenchmark.ai. Okay. So, the two Christianbenchmark.ai. Okay. So, the two the two reasons why the platforms varied the two reasons why the platforms varied the two reasons why the platforms varied widely in terms of theological widely in terms of theological widely in terms of theological reliability were one, alignment reliability were one, alignment reliability were one, alignment and two, citation preferences.

and two, citation preferences. and two, citation preferences. I'll start with citation preferences cuz I'll start with citation preferences cuz I'll start with citation preferences cuz it's easier to explain. So, every it's easier to explain. So, every it's easier to explain. So, every platform that's a you know, it's an AI platform that's a you know, it's an AI platform that's a you know, it's an AI platform has to make decisions about platform has to make decisions about platform has to make decisions about what sources it trusts more than others. what sources it trusts more than others. what sources it trusts more than others. And so, every platform has to say, "Hey, And so, every platform has to say, "Hey, And so, every platform has to say, "Hey, we're going to rank Wikipedia like this. we're going to rank Wikipedia like this. we're going to rank Wikipedia like this. We're going to rank Reddit like that. We're going to rank Reddit like that. We're going to rank Reddit like that. We're going to you know, rank you know, We're going to you know, rank you know, We're going to you know, rank you know, New York Times or Fortune or Bloomberg, New York Times or Fortune or Bloomberg, New York Times or Fortune or Bloomberg, you know, this this and this, okay?" So, you know, this this and this, okay?" So, you know, this this and this, okay?" So, every platform has very different every platform has very different every platform has very different ranking systems for how it thinks about ranking systems for how it thinks about ranking systems for how it thinks about large large bodies of words that it's large large bodies of words that it's large large bodies of words that it's digested. And so, digested. And so, digested. And so, the platforms will vary, you know, the platforms will vary, you know, the platforms will vary, you know, imagine a platform that has a high value imagine a platform that has a high value imagine a platform that has a high value for Wikipedia versus a platform that has for Wikipedia versus a platform that has for Wikipedia versus a platform that has a very high value for Reddit. Reddit a very high value for Reddit. Reddit a very high value for Reddit. Reddit would be a platform would be a platform would be a platform >> just that's programmed into the into it >> just that's programmed into the into it >> just that's programmed into the into it when it was created is what you're when it was created is what you're when it was created is what you're saying. saying. saying. >> Those are those are human created >> Those are those are human created >> Those are those are human created decisions at the AI corporation of you decisions at the AI corporation of you decisions at the AI corporation of you know, and they might they you know, they know, and they might they you know, they know, and they might they you know, they may have started with an algorithm of may have started with an algorithm of may have started with an algorithm of like, "Hey, you know, they might have like, "Hey, you know, they might have like, "Hey, you know, they might have started with Google, you know, SEO started with Google, you know, SEO started with Google, you know, SEO rankings, those different kinds of rankings, those different kinds of rankings, those different kinds of things as a starting point, but they all things as a starting point, but they all things as a starting point, but they all have to decide which kinds of sources have to decide which kinds of sources have to decide which kinds of sources are they going to cite more frequently are they going to cite more frequently are they going to cite more frequently and have a and have a and have a >> already, right?

>> already, right? >> already, right? >> Well, those are those are decisions. >> Well, those are those are decisions. >> Well, those are those are decisions. Those are decisions that are being made Those are decisions that are being made Those are decisions that are being made and yes, you know, any human no human and yes, you know, any human no human and yes, you know, any human no human decision is neutral. You know, if you decision is neutral. You know, if you decision is neutral. You know, if you want to label that bias, maybe you want to label that bias, maybe you want to label that bias, maybe you could. Um could. Um could. Um I would like to believe the best in the I would like to believe the best in the I would like to believe the best in the people who are making those decisions. I people who are making those decisions. I people who are making those decisions. I don't think that there's like something don't think that there's like something don't think that there's like something conspiratorial here or nefarious, but conspiratorial here or nefarious, but conspiratorial here or nefarious, but you know, when somebody when a platform, you know, when somebody when a platform, you know, when somebody when a platform, you know, values Reddit extremely highly you know, values Reddit extremely highly you know, values Reddit extremely highly like a platform like Grok, well, that's like a platform like Grok, well, that's like a platform like Grok, well, that's that is an ecosystem of language that is that is an ecosystem of language that is that is an ecosystem of language that is very not Christian. very not Christian. very not Christian. That is skeptical in nature of religion. That is skeptical in nature of religion. That is skeptical in nature of religion. And so, you know, if you have a platform And so, you know, if you have a platform And so, you know, if you have a platform that has citation preferences that are that has citation preferences that are that has citation preferences that are wired towards Reddit, well, it's going wired towards Reddit, well, it's going wired towards Reddit, well, it's going to end up giving you very different to end up giving you very different to end up giving you very different outcomes when you ask theology questions outcomes when you ask theology questions outcomes when you ask theology questions than a platform that doesn't you know, than a platform that doesn't you know, than a platform that doesn't you know, doesn't have the same kind of waiting doesn't have the same kind of waiting doesn't have the same kind of waiting towards Reddit. So, that's citation towards Reddit. So, that's citation towards Reddit. So, that's citation preferences. That's the first reason why preferences. That's the first reason why preferences. That's the first reason why these platforms varied very widely. The these platforms varied very widely. The these platforms varied very widely. The second The second thing is something second The second thing is something second The second thing is something called alignment. Alignment is actually called alignment. Alignment is actually called alignment. Alignment is actually really important. So, imagine all these really important. So, imagine all these really important. So, imagine all these platforms, every word that exists on the platforms, every word that exists on the platforms, every word that exists on the internet, they've been trained on. And internet, they've been trained on. And internet, they've been trained on. And every word that is not copyrighted, they every word that is not copyrighted, they every word that is not copyrighted, they have also been trained on. Well, imagine have also been trained on. Well, imagine have also been trained on. Well, imagine that there's a lot of words in there that there's a lot of words in there that there's a lot of words in there that are really nasty, okay? Words that that are really nasty, okay? Words that that are really nasty, okay? Words that would, you know, teach you how to commit would, you know, teach you how to commit would, you know, teach you how to commit crimes, words that would teach you how

crimes, words that would teach you how crimes, words that would teach you how to harm yourself, words that would teach to harm yourself, words that would teach to harm yourself, words that would teach you how to harm other people, make you how to harm other people, make you how to harm other people, make bombs, IEDs, ricin, anthrax, commit bombs, IEDs, ricin, anthrax, commit bombs, IEDs, ricin, anthrax, commit suicide, all of those different kinds of suicide, all of those different kinds of suicide, all of those different kinds of things. That's all in the training data things. That's all in the training data things. That's all in the training data of all of those platforms. of all of those platforms. of all of those platforms. And so, what alignment tries to do is And so, what alignment tries to do is And so, what alignment tries to do is function like a filter between you and function like a filter between you and function like a filter between you and all of that harmful content. all of that harmful content. all of that harmful content. Now, Now, Now, what we know about filters in all other what we know about filters in all other what we know about filters in all other parts of life, you know, let's say you parts of life, you know, let's say you parts of life, you know, let's say you have, you know, like, you know, a water have, you know, like, you know, a water have, you know, like, you know, a water filter and you know, it's in your pool. filter and you know, it's in your pool. filter and you know, it's in your pool. And there could be things that, you And there could be things that, you And there could be things that, you know, you'd want to have that get caught know, you'd want to have that get caught know, you'd want to have that get caught by that that you want to get caught by by that that you want to get caught by by that that you want to get caught by that filter. And then maybe there's that filter. And then maybe there's that filter. And then maybe there's other things that you don't want to get other things that you don't want to get other things that you don't want to get stuck in the filter, you know? You don't stuck in the filter, you know? You don't stuck in the filter, you know? You don't want to get your, you know, pool toys want to get your, you know, pool toys want to get your, you know, pool toys and and and those kinds of things stuck in the those kinds of things stuck in the those kinds of things stuck in the filter. And filter. And filter. And there are problematic things, A, B, and there are problematic things, A, B, and there are problematic things, A, B, and C, that are really, really important for C, that are really, really important for C, that are really, really important for alignment filters to catch. But alignment filters to catch. But alignment filters to catch. But sometimes those filters end up having sometimes those filters end up having sometimes those filters end up having unintended consequences on unintended consequences on unintended consequences on non-problematic things, D, E, and F. And non-problematic things, D, E, and F. And non-problematic things, D, E, and F. And so, one of the things that we noticed is so, one of the things that we noticed is so, one of the things that we noticed is that that that when alignment filters were trying to when alignment filters were trying to when alignment filters were trying to catch all of these other problematic catch all of these other problematic catch all of these other problematic things over here, it was having things over here, it was having things over here, it was having unintended consequences on theological unintended consequences on theological unintended consequences on theological reliability on for, you know, for for reliability on for, you know, for for reliability on for, you know, for for religious prompts and prompts about the religious prompts and prompts about the religious prompts and prompts about the Christian faith.

Christian faith. Christian faith. And so, And so, And so, some of those platforms have a lot more some of those platforms have a lot more some of those platforms have a lot more filters than others. filters than others. filters than others. And I don't want to get too nerdy here. And I don't want to get too nerdy here. And I don't want to get too nerdy here. You can read christianbenchmark.ai for You can read christianbenchmark.ai for You can read christianbenchmark.ai for all this, but there's 36 different types all this, but there's 36 different types all this, but there's 36 different types of alignment filters. 32 of those are of alignment filters. 32 of those are of alignment filters. 32 of those are human generated, and uh most of the human generated, and uh most of the human generated, and uh most of the platforms, like when you go into like platforms, like when you go into like platforms, like when you go into like GPT or Gemini in that white box, you GPT or Gemini in that white box, you GPT or Gemini in that white box, you type your prompt, you hit enter, type your prompt, you hit enter, type your prompt, you hit enter, like there's probably 12 to 16 filters like there's probably 12 to 16 filters like there's probably 12 to 16 filters on any of those platforms that that, on any of those platforms that that, on any of those platforms that that, you know, the responses are going you know, the responses are going you know, the responses are going through before anything shows up on your through before anything shows up on your through before anything shows up on your screen. And so, and most of those 12 to screen. And so, and most of those 12 to screen. And so, and most of those 12 to 16 filters are 16 filters are 16 filters are were created by humans, and they had were created by humans, and they had were created by humans, and they had those humans had values, and those those humans had values, and those those humans had values, and those values are being filtered through values are being filtered through values are being filtered through when between the question that you when between the question that you when between the question that you answered and the response that you're answered and the response that you're answered and the response that you're getting. And so, here's the point. getting. And so, here's the point. getting. And so, here's the point. Here's what you need to know about Here's what you need to know about Here's what you need to know about alignment filters.

alignment filters. alignment filters. There's way more humans in your AI than There's way more humans in your AI than There's way more humans in your AI than what you understand. what you understand. what you understand. That's the point. And those people That's the point. And those people That's the point. And those people aren't necessarily aren't necessarily aren't necessarily um trained theologically, um trained theologically, um trained theologically, philosophically, historically, philosophically, historically, philosophically, historically, economically. economically. economically. These are people who are largely um, you These are people who are largely um, you These are people who are largely um, you know, there are a handful of people who know, there are a handful of people who know, there are a handful of people who have some of those experiences at some have some of those experiences at some have some of those experiences at some of these platforms. But, you know, by of these platforms. But, you know, by of these platforms. But, you know, by and large, these are you're dealing with and large, these are you're dealing with and large, these are you're dealing with software engineers, you know, who are software engineers, you know, who are software engineers, you know, who are making, you know, these kinds of making, you know, these kinds of making, you know, these kinds of decisions. And bear in mind, you know, decisions. And bear in mind, you know, decisions. And bear in mind, you know, where are almost all of the foundational where are almost all of the foundational where are almost all of the foundational AI models being created? They're all AI models being created? They're all AI models being created? They're all being created, you know, in one metro being created, you know, in one metro being created, you know, in one metro area, you know, San you know, the kind area, you know, San you know, the kind area, you know, San you know, the kind of San Francisco Silicon Valley, you of San Francisco Silicon Valley, you of San Francisco Silicon Valley, you know, area, you know? And that's one know, area, you know? And that's one know, area, you know? And that's one city in one state in one country in the city in one state in one country in the city in one state in one country in the entire world, but all of those alignment entire world, but all of those alignment entire world, but all of those alignment filters are impacting everybody around filters are impacting everybody around filters are impacting everybody around the globe. And so, the values of people the globe. And so, the values of people the globe. And so, the values of people who are you know, geographically located who are you know, geographically located who are you know, geographically located in space and time in one city and who in space and time in one city and who in space and time in one city and who all have a very similar skill set, you all have a very similar skill set, you all have a very similar skill set, you know, all of those filters are being know, all of those filters are being know, all of those filters are being kind of put on everybody around the kind of put on everybody around the kind of put on everybody around the globe. And so, there's a lot of globe. And so, there's a lot of globe. And so, there's a lot of opportunities for those things to go opportunities for those things to go opportunities for those things to go um badly, even if all of it is just um badly, even if all of it is just um badly, even if all of it is just unintentional and nobody means to hurt unintentional and nobody means to hurt unintentional and nobody means to hurt or harm anybody.

or harm anybody. or harm anybody. >> That's so helpful. So, I think I think >> That's so helpful. So, I think I think >> That's so helpful. So, I think I think as we wrap up, I just want to say first as we wrap up, I just want to say first as we wrap up, I just want to say first of all, I'm sure that everybody of all, I'm sure that everybody of all, I'm sure that everybody listening has experienced one of the listening has experienced one of the listening has experienced one of the reasons why we love My Gram so much cuz reasons why we love My Gram so much cuz reasons why we love My Gram so much cuz he can just land the plane and like he can just land the plane and like he can just land the plane and like bring these word pictures that help it bring these word pictures that help it bring these word pictures that help it all make sense. But, I'm just thinking all make sense. But, I'm just thinking all make sense. But, I'm just thinking back through this conversation and just back through this conversation and just back through this conversation and just like all that I'm learning as I hear you like all that I'm learning as I hear you like all that I'm learning as I hear you talk about it, you know, the different talk about it, you know, the different talk about it, you know, the different types of of AI with the generative and types of of AI with the generative and types of of AI with the generative and then the agentic and then I love the um then the agentic and then I love the um then the agentic and then I love the um the labor toil rubric and then the head the labor toil rubric and then the head the labor toil rubric and then the head heart hands rubric, those are super heart hands rubric, those are super heart hands rubric, those are super helpful. helpful. helpful. Um I love all the fun good ways that we Um I love all the fun good ways that we Um I love all the fun good ways that we can use it to even push against toil, can use it to even push against toil, can use it to even push against toil, but that we it's a wisdom issue and and but that we it's a wisdom issue and and but that we it's a wisdom issue and and we don't um we don't um we don't um we don't ask, we don't turn to AI for we don't ask, we don't turn to AI for we don't ask, we don't turn to AI for questions that are seeking wisdom questions that are seeking wisdom questions that are seeking wisdom because it does not it does not have because it does not it does not have because it does not it does not have wisdom. Um it has knowledge. And and wisdom. Um it has knowledge. And and wisdom. Um it has knowledge. And and then even understanding how um the then even understanding how um the then even understanding how um the different platforms, how they gather different platforms, how they gather different platforms, how they gather information and then filter information.

information and then filter information. information and then filter information. And the reminder of the difference And the reminder of the difference And the reminder of the difference between primary sources and and between primary sources and and between primary sources and and secondary sources. Like those are just secondary sources. Like those are just secondary sources. Like those are just all all all really helpful in understanding more really helpful in understanding more really helpful in understanding more about what AI is. And I think in about what AI is. And I think in about what AI is. And I think in understanding that, it helps us know understanding that, it helps us know understanding that, it helps us know better how to how to navigate it. Um and better how to how to navigate it. Um and better how to how to navigate it. Um and then one other thing I'm going to say in then one other thing I'm going to say in then one other thing I'm going to say in summary just as I'm learning in real summary just as I'm learning in real summary just as I'm learning in real time is how to help our children and time is how to help our children and time is how to help our children and grandchildren navigate this this thing. grandchildren navigate this this thing. grandchildren navigate this this thing. And until there are some parameters put And until there are some parameters put And until there are some parameters put on it for children, how can parents put on it for children, how can parents put on it for children, how can parents put those parameters? And I know Mike, you those parameters? And I know Mike, you those parameters? And I know Mike, you and I have talked about that before and and I have talked about that before and and I have talked about that before and in in in this idea of making the sandbox smaller this idea of making the sandbox smaller this idea of making the sandbox smaller for them. So just meaning that that they for them. So just meaning that that they for them. So just meaning that that they don't have access to um all types of don't have access to um all types of don't have access to um all types of questions, but that the types of questions, but that the types of questions, but that the types of questions that they have access to um questions that they have access to um questions that they have access to um are limited. And the number of questions are limited. And the number of questions are limited. And the number of questions they can ask in a day is is maybe they can ask in a day is is maybe they can ask in a day is is maybe limited. I thought that that was a there limited. I thought that that was a there limited. I thought that that was a there was a lot of wisdom when you said that was a lot of wisdom when you said that was a lot of wisdom when you said that um in a conversation that we had um in a conversation that we had um in a conversation that we had previously. And and then that if we previously. And and then that if we previously. And and then that if we could at some point hope that AI could at some point hope that AI could at some point hope that AI creators would not not retain or create creators would not not retain or create creators would not not retain or create a profile on children under 18 that, you a profile on children under 18 that, you a profile on children under 18 that, you know, so that it doesn't have a memory know, so that it doesn't have a memory know, so that it doesn't have a memory of the questions they've asked. Like of the questions they've asked. Like of the questions they've asked. Like that would be a wonderful thing.

that would be a wonderful thing. that would be a wonderful thing. Um we really commend the AI benchmark to Um we really commend the AI benchmark to Um we really commend the AI benchmark to anybody as you're wanting to learn more anybody as you're wanting to learn more anybody as you're wanting to learn more about what this is and and just grow in about what this is and and just grow in about what this is and and just grow in your own knowledge of um what it is and your own knowledge of um what it is and your own knowledge of um what it is and how to how to best use it. We also at how to how to best use it. We also at how to how to best use it. We also at TGCW 26 are going to be talking more TGCW 26 are going to be talking more TGCW 26 are going to be talking more about AI and I'm really excited really about AI and I'm really excited really about AI and I'm really excited really excited about that. But um excited about that. But um excited about that. But um Melissa, I know you've got some I think Melissa, I know you've got some I think Melissa, I know you've got some I think you have a final question for Mike, but you have a final question for Mike, but you have a final question for Mike, but I just am so grateful for um just the I just am so grateful for um just the I just am so grateful for um just the continued education that I gain from you continued education that I gain from you continued education that I gain from you on this. And on this. And on this. And um excited to share that knowledge with um excited to share that knowledge with um excited to share that knowledge with our with our audience. our with our audience. our with our audience. >> And one thing the benchmark really >> And one thing the benchmark really >> And one thing the benchmark really helped me even understand is how I helped me even understand is how I helped me even understand is how I prompt an AI tool is as powerful in some prompt an AI tool is as powerful in some prompt an AI tool is as powerful in some ways as the tool itself. Because what ways as the tool itself. Because what ways as the tool itself. Because what you can do if you want to know like as you can do if you want to know like as you can do if you want to know like as Christians if we want to use it for Christians if we want to use it for Christians if we want to use it for theological resources now what I do theological resources now what I do theological resources now what I do often is that I will say according to often is that I will say according to often is that I will say according to TGC TGC TGC you know, um what did it mean when you know, um what did it mean when you know, um what did it mean when Mark's gospel said X Y or Z?

Mark's gospel said X Y or Z? Mark's gospel said X Y or Z? And that is how I can find information And that is how I can find information And that is how I can find information that I feel is pretty trustworthy. And that I feel is pretty trustworthy. And that I feel is pretty trustworthy. And then I can see the link and it shows me then I can see the link and it shows me then I can see the link and it shows me the article and it helps me find the the article and it helps me find the the article and it helps me find the article on TGC, you know, or find a TGC article on TGC, you know, or find a TGC article on TGC, you know, or find a TGC article for me that tells me how to article for me that tells me how to article for me that tells me how to organize a women's ministry. I don't organize a women's ministry. I don't organize a women's ministry. I don't know. And it will find that and that is know. And it will find that and that is know. And it will find that and that is actually really helpful for me. But I've actually really helpful for me. But I've actually really helpful for me. But I've learned how I prompt it is very learned how I prompt it is very learned how I prompt it is very important and that involves wisdom and important and that involves wisdom and important and that involves wisdom and discernment and knowing, you know, discernment and knowing, you know, discernment and knowing, you know, where to go to find information. So, um where to go to find information. So, um where to go to find information. So, um as we've talked about this some Michael as we've talked about this some Michael as we've talked about this some Michael again on the side cuz he's the person we again on the side cuz he's the person we again on the side cuz he's the person we all go to for these type of questions. all go to for these type of questions. all go to for these type of questions. So, even if you're listening today and So, even if you're listening today and So, even if you're listening today and if you have questions, actually we'd if you have questions, actually we'd if you have questions, actually we'd love for you to put them when we share love for you to put them when we share love for you to put them when we share the episode, we'd love to hear your the episode, we'd love to hear your the episode, we'd love to hear your questions and maybe we can get Michael questions and maybe we can get Michael questions and maybe we can get Michael to come on to social media and answer to come on to social media and answer to come on to social media and answer some for us. So, please some for us. So, please some for us. So, please >> AI Q&A, yeah. >> AI Q&A, yeah. >> AI Q&A, yeah. >> Yeah, we totally could. Hey, if you guys >> Yeah, we totally could. Hey, if you guys >> Yeah, we totally could. Hey, if you guys want us to, we will. So, if you have want us to, we will. So, if you have want us to, we will. So, if you have questions really practical questions, um questions really practical questions, um questions really practical questions, um I think Michael you've given us as I think Michael you've given us as I think Michael you've given us as Courtney even just said some great Courtney even just said some great Courtney even just said some great rubrics um to think through how we're rubrics um to think through how we're rubrics um to think through how we're using um AI and and again, we want to be using um AI and and again, we want to be using um AI and and again, we want to be people um who faithfully walk with the people um who faithfully walk with the people um who faithfully walk with the Lord in in in fearful situations. What Lord in in in fearful situations. What Lord in in in fearful situations. What can feel the unknown can feel fearful, can feel the unknown can feel fearful, can feel the unknown can feel fearful, but we want to just trust that he's Lord but we want to just trust that he's Lord but we want to just trust that he's Lord over all as we even discuss things like over all as we even discuss things like over all as we even discuss things like AI.

AI. AI. Okay, so Okay, so Okay, so just for fun cuz we always ask a fun just for fun cuz we always ask a fun just for fun cuz we always ask a fun question at the end. Um, question at the end. Um, question at the end. Um, you know, sometimes when we talk about you know, sometimes when we talk about you know, sometimes when we talk about AI, it honestly feels like we're living AI, it honestly feels like we're living AI, it honestly feels like we're living in like the pre-Terminator world. You in like the pre-Terminator world. You in like the pre-Terminator world. You know, like like oh, I thought Terminator know, like like oh, I thought Terminator know, like like oh, I thought Terminator was just a movie, but maybe maybe we're was just a movie, but maybe maybe we're was just a movie, but maybe maybe we're there. Um, is there in a positive sense, there. Um, is there in a positive sense, there. Um, is there in a positive sense, a sci-fi scenario you'd like to see come a sci-fi scenario you'd like to see come a sci-fi scenario you'd like to see come true? Um, what would it be? If there you true? Um, what would it be? If there you true? Um, what would it be? If there you know, if you look at some of these know, if you look at some of these know, if you look at some of these sci-fi movies, you're like now that'd be sci-fi movies, you're like now that'd be sci-fi movies, you're like now that'd be fun. fun. fun. >> I mean, I think it I I think in some way >> I mean, I think it I I think in some way >> I mean, I think it I I think in some way it we're almost already there. You know, it we're almost already there. You know, it we're almost already there. You know, like probably the the agentic AI era, like probably the the agentic AI era, like probably the the agentic AI era, the probably the the easiest way to the probably the the easiest way to the probably the the easiest way to think about it is Jarvis from Iron Man. think about it is Jarvis from Iron Man. think about it is Jarvis from Iron Man. So, if you remember any of the Iron Man So, if you remember any of the Iron Man So, if you remember any of the Iron Man movies, he's you know, he's got this you movies, he's you know, he's got this you movies, he's you know, he's got this you know, Jarvis thing and um, know, Jarvis thing and um, know, Jarvis thing and um, I I I think that would be I I I think that would be I I I think that would be that would be pretty cool. Um, I it'll that would be pretty cool. Um, I it'll that would be pretty cool. Um, I it'll be interesting be interesting be interesting when when when Okay. So, this is an ongoing Okay. So, this is an ongoing Okay. So, this is an ongoing conversation between me and my wife.

conversation between me and my wife. conversation between me and my wife. Um, Um, Um, is The Jetsons. is The Jetsons. is The Jetsons. Um, extreme disappointment about like, Um, extreme disappointment about like, Um, extreme disappointment about like, where's all this technology where's all this technology where's all this technology from The Jetsons? All the time we're from The Jetsons? All the time we're from The Jetsons? All the time we're like, where's my Rosie Robot? You know, like, where's my Rosie Robot? You know, like, where's my Rosie Robot? You know, like I I do want the Rosie Robot that like I I do want the Rosie Robot that like I I do want the Rosie Robot that like I hate I hate doing like the like I hate I hate doing like the like I hate I hate doing like the putting laundry away or folding it is putting laundry away or folding it is putting laundry away or folding it is like the worst. like the worst. like the worst. >> says toil. It says toil. It says >> says toil. It says toil. It says >> says toil. It says toil. It says >> says toil. >> says toil. >> says toil. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, like >> So, like >> So, like >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I >> I >> I I want an American-made Rosie Robot that I want an American-made Rosie Robot that I want an American-made Rosie Robot that doesn't spy on me and [laughter] doesn't spy on me and [laughter] doesn't spy on me and [laughter] and and sell sell all my data and app, and and sell sell all my data and app, and and sell sell all my data and app, you know, to like advertisers. you know, to like advertisers. you know, to like advertisers. Um, that's right. Your Rosie Robot Um, that's right. Your Rosie Robot Um, that's right. Your Rosie Robot >> might be taking notes and being like, >> might be taking notes and being like, >> might be taking notes and being like, they were talking last night about a they were talking last night about a they were talking last night about a puppy. And then you find [laughter] all puppy. And then you find [laughter] all puppy. And then you find [laughter] all these ads these ads these ads >> Yeah, you open Facebook and it's like, >> Yeah, you open Facebook and it's like, >> Yeah, you open Facebook and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. Here's your golden doodle. Here's your golden doodle. Here's your golden doodle. >> [laughter] [gasps] [gasps] >> No, I I I think it's I think it's the >> No, I I I think it's I think it's the >> No, I I I think it's I think it's the Rosie Robot, you know, era. Like, I'm Rosie Robot, you know, era. Like, I'm Rosie Robot, you know, era. Like, I'm really bad at, you know, like, neither really bad at, you know, like, neither really bad at, you know, like, neither of us are really good at cooking, you of us are really good at cooking, you of us are really good at cooking, you know, so frankly, it would be amazing know, so frankly, it would be amazing know, so frankly, it would be amazing like, if if I could get a robot in the like, if if I could get a robot in the like, if if I could get a robot in the home home home that could make like healthy meals that that could make like healthy meals that that could make like healthy meals that were tailored to like what my body were tailored to like what my body were tailored to like what my body actually needs, actually needs, actually needs, that would be a tremendous help to that would be a tremendous help to that would be a tremendous help to you know, in in all seriousness to you know, in in all seriousness to you know, in in all seriousness to lifelong longevity, to making better

lifelong longevity, to making better lifelong longevity, to making better decisions. Like, I just think that decisions. Like, I just think that decisions. Like, I just think that you know, I I do think that one of the you know, I I do think that one of the you know, I I do think that one of the best use cases for, especially large best use cases for, especially large best use cases for, especially large language models, is workout plans, language models, is workout plans, language models, is workout plans, um, meal planning, um, meal planning, um, meal planning, um, thinking through diet, um, hey, I um, thinking through diet, um, hey, I um, thinking through diet, um, hey, I have the, you know, my my cholesterol have the, you know, my my cholesterol have the, you know, my my cholesterol and my A1C is at this, like, you know, and my A1C is at this, like, you know, and my A1C is at this, like, you know, what foods do I need to be eating to, what foods do I need to be eating to, what foods do I need to be eating to, you know, to lower that. So, I think the you know, to lower that. So, I think the you know, to lower that. So, I think the equivalent of all of that, like, put equivalent of all of that, like, put equivalent of all of that, like, put inside of a robot, um, would be kind of inside of a robot, um, would be kind of inside of a robot, um, would be kind of nice, uh, in the kitchen. If I could nice, uh, in the kitchen. If I could nice, uh, in the kitchen. If I could just get one of those, like, give me a just get one of those, like, give me a just get one of those, like, give me a Rosie Robot like that does like kitchen Rosie Robot like that does like kitchen Rosie Robot like that does like kitchen and laundry, and like, I would be very and laundry, and like, I would be very and laundry, and like, I would be very excited about, you know, that future. excited about, you know, that future. excited about, you know, that future. >> Yeah, no, I that the cooking would be so >> Yeah, no, I that the cooking would be so >> Yeah, no, I that the cooking would be so nice. Like, really good meals that are nice. Like, really good meals that are nice. Like, really good meals that are healthy, but taste good. And then when healthy, but taste good. And then when healthy, but taste good. And then when you start talking about, you know, I you start talking about, you know, I you start talking about, you know, I realized I have used chat to develop a realized I have used chat to develop a realized I have used chat to develop a weight lifting plan, you know, cuz they weight lifting plan, you know, cuz they weight lifting plan, you know, cuz they say at this stage. But then like, who say at this stage. But then like, who say at this stage. But then like, who can the robot lift the weights for me? can the robot lift the weights for me? can the robot lift the weights for me? Can we get there? Can we get there? Can we get there? I guess that doesn't work. I guess I guess that doesn't work. I guess I guess that doesn't work. I guess that's probably labor. I got to do it that's probably labor. I got to do it that's probably labor. I got to do it myself. I got to do it myself. Okay, myself. I got to do it myself. Okay, myself. I got to do it myself. Okay, well, friends, um, we hope you've been well, friends, um, we hope you've been well, friends, um, we hope you've been encouraged by this episode of the Deep encouraged by this episode of the Deep encouraged by this episode of the Deep Dish. I know I have. I always love Dish. I know I have. I always love Dish. I know I have. I always love talking to Michael about these things, talking to Michael about these things, talking to Michael about these things, and we we really do mean it. If you have and we we really do mean it. If you have and we we really do mean it. If you have questions about usage of AI, questions about usage of AI, questions about usage of AI, um, how to even think about it with our um, how to even think about it with our um, how to even think about it with our kids and different things like that, put kids and different things like that, put kids and different things like that, put them put them in you know, when we share them put them in you know, when we share them put them in you know, when we share when we share this episode, share them when we share this episode, share them when we share this episode, share them with us and maybe we can have Michael with us and maybe we can have Michael with us and maybe we can have Michael back on here for round two where we back on here for round two where we back on here for round two where we rapid fire questions and answers at him.

rapid fire questions and answers at him. rapid fire questions and answers at him. Um but if you've enjoyed this episode, Um but if you've enjoyed this episode, Um but if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with others. please consider sharing it with others. please consider sharing it with others. We're so thankful you listen. We're so We're so thankful you listen. We're so We're so thankful you listen. We're so grateful to get to do have this time grateful to get to do have this time grateful to get to do have this time with you [music] and we hope that you'll with you [music] and we hope that you'll with you [music] and we hope that you'll um have some friends gather around the um have some friends gather around the um have some friends gather around the table and have some deep dish table and have some deep dish table and have some deep dish conversations on your own.